Final Thesis

Electric Vehicle Circular Economy: Creating a Framework to Aid Firms Within the EV
Industry
Industry Research Project by:

Kevin Codd (115338726)
Colin Guimond (122106777)
Nivedhan Senthil Kumar (121101813)
Mary O’Brien (118406742)
IS6056: Collaborative Industry Research Project

Faculty Advisor:
Dr. Wendy Rowan
Date: 04 August 2023
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Table of Contents
Electric Vehicle Circular Economy: Creating a Framework to Aid Firms Within the EV Industry .. 1
Abstract ......................................................................................................................................................... 8
Chapter 1: Introduction ................................................................................................................................. 9
1.1 Introduction to Study .......................................................................................................................... 9
1.2 Problem Area ...................................................................................................................................... 9
1.3 Research Objective and Questions .................................................................................................... 10
1.4 Thesis Design .................................................................................................................................... 11
1.4.1 Summary of Chapter 2: Literature Review ................................................................................ 11
1.4.2 Summary of Chapter 3: Research Methodology ........................................................................ 11
1.4.3 Summary of Chapter 4: Findings ............................................................................................... 11
1.4.4 Summary of Chapter 5: Discussion of Findings ........................................................................ 12
1.4.5 Summary of Chapter 6: Recommendations and Conclusion ..................................................... 12
1.5 Conclusion ........................................................................................................................................ 12
Chapter 2: Literature Review ...................................................................................................................... 13
2.1 Introduction ....................................................................................................................................... 13
2.1.1 Current position on Electric Vehicles and the non-fossil fuel economy .................................... 13
2.2 Challenges for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs) ............................................................................. 14
2.2.1 Infrastructure .............................................................................................................................. 14
2.2.2 Cost of Production ..................................................................................................................... 14
2.2.3 Social Pressures ......................................................................................................................... 15
2.2.4 Battery Capacity and Degradation ............................................................................................. 15
2.3 Opportunities within the Electric Vehicle Ecosystem ....................................................................... 16
2.3.1 Environmental and Societal Impact ........................................................................................... 16
2.3.2 Recycling and Repurposing ....................................................................................................... 17
2.3.3 Battery Second Use (B2U) Market ............................................................................................ 18
2.3.4 Battery leasing & Battery swapping .......................................................................................... 18
2.4 Policy ................................................................................................................................................ 20
2.4.1 Regulations and Standards ......................................................................................................... 20
2.5 Business Models ............................................................................................................................... 21
2.5.1 Business Model Canvas ............................................................................................................. 22
2.5.2 Sustainable Business Models and the Circular Economy .......................................................... 23
2.5.3 Circular Business Models .......................................................................................................... 25
2.5.4 Electric Vehicle Business Models .............................................................................................. 27
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2.6 Circular Economy ............................................................................................................................. 28
2.6.1 Importance of Sustainability in the Circular Economy .............................................................. 29
2.6.2 Circular Economy Indicators ..................................................................................................... 29
2.6.3 Waste Management and Recycling in Circular Economy .......................................................... 30
2.7 Implementing an Electric Vehicle Ecosystem ................................................................................... 30
2.7.1 Standardisation and Product Design .......................................................................................... 30
2.7.2 Collaboration, Strategies and Frameworks ................................................................................ 31
2.8 Research Gap .................................................................................................................................... 33
2.9 Conclusion ........................................................................................................................................ 34
Chapter 3: Research Methodology.............................................................................................................. 37
3.1 Introduction ....................................................................................................................................... 37
3.1.1 Approach to Answering the Research Objective and Questions ................................................ 37
3.2 Research Design................................................................................................................................ 38
3.3 Research Approach ........................................................................................................................... 38
3.4 Data Collection ................................................................................................................................. 39
3.5 Data Analysis .................................................................................................................................... 40
3.5.1 Introduction to Data Analysis .................................................................................................... 40
3.5.2 Data Preparation and Coding ..................................................................................................... 41
3.5.3 Thematic Analysis ...................................................................................................................... 41
3.5.4 Python ........................................................................................................................................ 43
3.6 Trustworthiness and Rigour .............................................................................................................. 43
3.7 Ethical Considerations ...................................................................................................................... 44
3.8 Limitations ........................................................................................................................................ 45
3.9 Conclusion ........................................................................................................................................ 45
Chapter 4: Findings ..................................................................................................................................... 47
4.1 Introduction ....................................................................................................................................... 47
4.2 Research Question 1 ......................................................................................................................... 47
4.2.1 Second Life Batteries ................................................................................................................. 47
4.2.2 Education ................................................................................................................................... 48
4.2.3 Governmental Action ................................................................................................................. 50
4.2.4 Collaboration.............................................................................................................................. 51
4.2.5 Charging Infrastructure .............................................................................................................. 52
4.2.6 Sustainability Practices .............................................................................................................. 53
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4.3.1 Supply and demand .................................................................................................................... 54
4.3.2 Linear Economy ......................................................................................................................... 54
4.3.3 Grid Infrastructure...................................................................................................................... 55
4.3.4 Supply Chain transparency ........................................................................................................ 56
4.3.5 Battery Recycling....................................................................................................................... 56
4.4.1 Business Models: PaaS .............................................................................................................. 57
4.4.2 Strategies: Scrappage Scheme ................................................................................................... 58
4.4.3 Framework Strategy ................................................................................................................... 58
4.4.4 Policy ......................................................................................................................................... 58
4.4.5 Incentives ................................................................................................................................... 59
4.4.6 The role we all play .................................................................................................................... 59
4.5 Dashboard ......................................................................................................................................... 60
Chapter 5: Discussion of Findings .............................................................................................................. 61
5.1 Introduction ....................................................................................................................................... 61
5.2 Challenges for Battery Electric Vehicles........................................................................................... 61
5.2.1 Infrastructure .............................................................................................................................. 61
5.2.2 Cost of Production ..................................................................................................................... 61
5.2.3 Social Pressures ......................................................................................................................... 62
5.2.4 Battery Capacity & Degradation ................................................................................................ 62
5.3 Opportunities within the Electric Vehicle Ecosystem ....................................................................... 63
5.3.1 Environmental & Societal Impact .............................................................................................. 63
5.3.2 Recycling & Repurposing .......................................................................................................... 63
5.3.3 Battery Leasing & Battery Swapping ........................................................................................ 64
5.4 Business Models ............................................................................................................................... 64
5.4.1 Sustainable Business Models & the Circular Economy ............................................................. 64
5.4.2 Electric Vehicle Business Models .............................................................................................. 65
5.5 Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas ........................................................................................... 66
5.5.1 Key themes within the Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas ............................................... 67
5.6 What value do you envision? ............................................................................................................ 69
5.7 How can this impact strategy? .......................................................................................................... 70
5.8 How have you answered research questions? ................................................................................... 71
Chapter 6: Recommendations and Conclusion ........................................................................................... 73
6.1 Recommendations ............................................................................................................................. 73
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6.2 Conclusion ........................................................................................................................................ 75
Bibliography ............................................................................................................................................... 77
Concept Centric Matrix............................................................................................................................... 85
Appendix ..................................................................................................................................................... 94
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Acknowledgments
We would like to thank University College Cork and the MSc programme Information
Systems for Business Performance for providing us with the opportunity to work on this project.
Our academic mentor Dr. Wendy Rowan was always a helping hand and was with us on this
journey from the start of semester 3. We were delighted to get to know her over the course of this
journey and would like to express our gratitude for the guidance she has provided. We would like
to additionally thank Bill Emerson, Richard Harris, and Dr. Stephen Treacy for their help with this
project. Thank you all for the time and energy you spent coaching us along the way.
In addition to our academic mentor, we were given 3 industry mentors: Annie Mai Dillon,
Aoife O’Brien, and Leo Healy. They always had a positive energy and were with us on this project
from day one. On more than one occasion they offered assistance with our research and
assignments, being more than willing to proofread our report and provide tips on our presentations.
We wish them all the best as they continue to excel in their careers.
During semester 3, we had the opportunity to interview some exceptional and fascinating
individuals. We would like to extend our thanks to those who contributed to this research. Without
your voice, this research would not have been possible.
Lastly, we would like to thank our families. They have supported us in more ways than one
and we truly wouldn’t have made it this far without the love and support you have provided us
during this time and throughout our academic careers. Thank you.
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List of Figures
Figure 1 – Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas

Figure 2 - Business Model for Primary and Secondary EV market
Figure 3 - Activity theory-based model
Figure 4 - Collaborative Framework for Sustainability
Figure 5 - Interviewees by position and industry
Figure 6 – Extract from Coding
Figure 7 - Dashboard
Figure 8 - Tripled-Layered Business Model Canvas
Figure 9 - Circular Economy Roadmap-Framework
Figure 10 - SWOT Analysis
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Abstract
The transition from the fossil fuel transport economy to the non-fossil fuel transport
economy created the background for this research is being undertaken. In order to aid Ernst and
Young (EY) on their goal to promote sustainability and help in the transition to electric vehicles
(EVs), the researchers sought to generate a framework which would provide valuable contributions
to both academic and industry professionals. In this aim, the team generated a circular framework
and roadmap which can be used by small to medium enterprises (SMEs) and builds on innovative
and novel techniques in reaching this output. The inclusion of a SWOT analysis and triple-layered
business model canvas (BMC) will further this goal, hoping to speed up this transition with EVs.
A review of the literature was conducted, searching for the opportunities and challenges
facing the EV market. In addition, the researchers searched for particularly innovative ideas in
providing a solution to EY, which then sought the inclusion of circular business models and
implementation frameworks. The methodology gathered from 16 interviews provided a strong
basis for the conclusions the researchers uncovered, with the aid of innovative techniques during
analysis using Python. The findings give a glimpse into the insights the participants imparted
during the data gathering process while the discussion of findings allocates both the findings and
the literature to cross-reference and provide more robust recommendations in the following
section.
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Chapter 1: Introduction
1.1 Introduction to Study

As part of this collaborative industry research project, Ernst and Young (EY) have partnered with
University College Cork and the MSc programme Information Systems for Business Performance
to provide quality and innovative ideas on how to aid their clients in the transition from a fossil-
fuel economy. In this partnership, EY afforded the time and knowledge of three industry mentors
to help the team of four postgraduate students achieve success. By sourcing the literature and
conducting interviews with experts from a variety of backgrounds, the team sought to synthesize
a robust framework to the team at EY.
The remainder of this chapter will outline the problem area in more detail and the research
objective and questions which have been built on the exploration of the literature.
1.2 Problem Area

The original problem statement from EY:
How could EY assist our wide range of clients with the challenges that come
with the transition to non-fossil fuel-based transport economy, and how can we
speed up the transition?
To address this proposition, the research team took several months scouring the literature to
understand the opportunities and challenges posing the electric vehicle (EV) market and further
investigated the use of the circular economy (CE) as a means for driving the transition to a non-
fossil fuel-based transport economy with a sustainable approach. Emphasis was made to ensure
the project outputs would be aligned with the overall mission EY has regarding sustainability. In
deciding how to create a holistic framework to assist EY’s wide range of clients, the researchers
built upon generalizability and parsimony as fundamental to attain their goal. By showing the
hidden value potential of second use batteries (B2U), for example, the team aimed to provide
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clients with an incentive which could be both lucrative and promote circularity for materials and
products within the economy.
1.3 Research Objective and Questions

The research objective and questions will provide the structure the research team will use to
address the problem statement from EY which will produce the findings and resulting outputs.
➢ Objective: Develop a framework to promote a circular economy within the EV ecosystem.
Research Questions:
1) What are the key components of a circular business model in the EV market?
2) What barriers are preventing the implementation of an EV ecosystem within the
circular economy?
3) What business models, strategies and policies would be most effective to promote
circularity?
Justification for RQ1

This research question arose from the need to address all the moving pieces at play in circular
business models (CBMs) and how EVs can be managed within this circularity. In gathering a full
understanding of the EV market and CBMs, this question creates the foundation for this work.

The logical next step is to assess the barriers hindering the implementation of an EV ecosystem
within the CE. The researchers were interested in the perceptions of barriers as much as physical
barriers, where both can have major implications on the success of the CE of EVs.

The third question is really aiming to derive the most practical and suitable business models,
strategies, and policies which will provide improved circular practices. There are likely differing
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answers to this question based on the location of the interview participants, so the goal will be to
ask these questions in the context of Ireland to ensure consistency.
1.4 Thesis Design

This thesis uses chapters to denote the primary headings, guiding the reader through the steps this
process required to come to fruition. Each section will be summarized below to allow the reader
to prime their knowledge on the subjects before diving into the full text.
1.4.1 Summary of Chapter 2: Literature Review

There were five areas which were the primary headings leading the structure of the literature
review but can be split into two main ideas: current state of EV industry and the circular economy.
The first section explored the challenges faced by battery electric vehicles (BEVs), with
infrastructure and social pressures among them. The following section dives into the opportunities
within the EV space, looking at battery recycling and improved environmental outcomes by way
of reduced greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs). The final slew of sections explore policy, business
models, and the circular economy.
1.4.2 Summary of Chapter 3: Research Methodology

The aim of the methodology chapter is to achieve a concise and robust method of approaching the
data gathering process and relay the information in the most straightforward way possible. The
researchers used the qualitative case study approach, gaining a deeper and fuller context for how
the circular economy of EVs could be achieved. The data was collected over Microsoft Teams via
interviews with industry professionals of various backgrounds. Using thematic analysis and
Python, the team was able to extract valuable insights and interpret the data to aid in answering
the research questions.
1.4.3 Summary of Chapter 4: Findings

This chapter will break down the results of our data gathering, and centers around each research
question and how the extracted quotes aid in gaining an understanding of the issue proposed. The
researchers found themes which highlighted some components of a circular business model for
research question one; second life batteries, government action, and collaboration. In research
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question two, some of the highlighted findings were grid infrastructure and battery recycling were
seen as potential barriers to implementation of the CE. In the final research question, incentives
and discussion on a sharing model were presented. Lastly, the inclusion of a dashboard on the
extracted themes provided novel insights and an innovative way to validate our results.
1.4.4 Summary of Chapter 5: Discussion of Findings

In the discussion of findings chapter, the researchers collated the knowledge from the literature
review and findings to generate novel and more robust results. This process of combining the work
completed during the second and fourth chapter provides the groundwork for the projects intended
outputs, making sure the findings from the qualitative data gathered is either seconded by the
literature or has a backing which is robust enough to authenticate the results. The aim is to guide
the reader through the content already read and create a full picture of the original task sought to
be understood.
1.4.5 Summary of Chapter 6: Recommendations and Conclusion

The last portion of this thesis deals with the actual project outputs and how to properly leverage
them to provide maximal value. Among the outputs are a business model canvas (BMC) from the
literature which was outlined with some key components using the findings. In addition, a SWOT
analysis is generated which can aid in decision making processes. The creation of a circular
economy framework which provides a modest roadmap for small to medium enterprises (SMEs)
aiming to enter the circular economy was one of the highlights produced during this process.
1.5 Conclusion
This introductory chapter successfully walked through the entirety of the thesis, highlighting some
of the primary goals of this research and summarised the main chapters in a succinct manner. Each
chapter will also have the inclusion of an introduction and conclusion as well. This should help
guide the reader through the remainder of this report and create a sense of what the researchers
were seeking to achieve.
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Chapter 2: Literature Review
2.1 Introduction
2.1.1 Current position on Electric Vehicles and the non-fossil fuel economy
The emerging transition to a non-fossil fuel economy has moved to the forefront of sustainability
agendas worldwide. Hence a push for the uptake of non-fossil fuel vehicles like Electric Vehicles
has increased. Likewise, the European Commission has mandated that each member state hit a
target of zero-emission vehicles being the primary energy type of vehicle in Europe by 2035
(European Commission, 2023). Electric Vehicles play a pivotal role in achieving this target.
The last decade has seen a growing trend in EV adoption, particularly in Norway. Evidence shows
that government incentives are crucial to EV uptake (Figenbaum, 2017; Bjerhan et al., 2016).
Hannisdahl et al. (2013) argue that for other countries to replicate the success of Norway and speed
up adoption, incentives are crucial to give EVs a competitive advantage in the market. Another
way in which Norway leads in EVs is down to their use of renewable energy, with hydropower
counting for 97%, moreover, Norway saw the OPEC oil embargo of 1970 as an opportunity to
strengthen their energy security and shift from fossil fuel vehicles to EVs (Skjølsvold & Ryghaug,
2020). To provide context, currently, in Ireland, there are incentives that cover a wide range of
things like home charging grants, vehicle purchases, motor tax, and toll reduction. Regarding
Electric cars, grants for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs) and Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles
(PHEVs) are given. However, as of 2022 there has been a reduction in PHEV grants and an
increase in BEV uptake in Ireland (Oireachtas, 2022). Moreover, BEVs count for the lowest rate
of motor tax presently. Grants also exist for commercially bought EVs at €3,800, with restrictions
in place stating that vehicles must be worth between 14k and 60k to avail themselves of such
incentives.
In this literature review, section 2.2 delves into the challenges faced by battery electric vehicles,
including infrastructure, cost of production, social pressures, and battery capacity and degradation.
Further, section 2.3 uncovers a multitude of opportunities within the electric vehicle ecosystem,
such as environmental and societal impact, recycling and repurposing, the Battery Second Use
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(B2U) Market, battery leasing, and sustainability. Section 2.4 analyses the policies, regulations,
and standards governing the EV industry. In section 2.5, business models, including those aligned
with the circular economy, are discussed. Section 2.6 dives fully into the circular economy
outlining many of the key dimensions of this concept. Section 2.7 discusses the critical components
necessary for implementing a robust circular economy and how standardization, product design,
collaboration, strategies, and frameworks play pivotal roles in building a thriving electric vehicle
ecosystem. In the penultimate section, 2.8, the researchers review the gaps found in the literature
and how these tie into the research objective and questions. Section 2.9 will provide a general
overview of the previous sections, bringing the literature review portion to a conclusion.
2.2 Challenges for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs)

2.2.1 Infrastructure
The rapid expansion of lithium batteries for BEVs is providing an opportunity to capitalize on the
eventual recycling of these materials to be put to use for material recycling, grid storage and
renewable resource storage systems. Currently only about 6% of LIBs are recycled, with most
ending up in landfills. This is not a sustainable solution given the volume of LIBs which will need
to be dealt with in the coming years (Roy et al., 2022).
A commonly cited issue with EV adoption is a lack of public charging infrastructure (Schulz &
Rode, 2022; Hendersen, 2020; Ghosh, 2020). Mersky et al. (2016) found a correlation between
strategically placed access to BEV charging infrastructure and increased BEV sales in the context
of Norway. However, Harrison and Thiel (2017) suggest that charging infrastructure and incentives
to be most impactful in early EV adoption. Moreover, range anxiety is an issue concerning
charging infrastructure and has also been found to impact consumer attitudes (Anfinsen, 2021;
Lorentzen et al., 2017).
2.2.2 Cost of Production

Lithium-ion batteries (LIBs) were introduced to the BEV market in 2010, where they quickly
started to dominate the industry (Rajaeifar et al., 2022). The most obvious and primary factor here
is the reduction in cost for LIBs. Between 2010 and 2020, the cost of production has decreased
from nearly $1200/kWh to about 135/kWh (Rajaeifar et al., 2022; statista.com) with the other
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promising alternatives of zinc-iron and solid-state batteries appearing unlikely to overtake the
market share prior to 2030 (Graham et al., 2021). With these prices becoming lower, this will lead
to more adoption of BEVs and will require more lithium production. With the estimated volume
of lithium production likely to more than double by the end of this decade, sourcing this resource
ethically and sustainably will be an area of concern.
2.2.3 Social Pressures

One major hurdle to the expansion of lithium mining capabilities are the social and environmental
dimensions. Both social groups and environmental concerns have slowed the progress for more
lithium mining facilities (Graham et al., 2021). Some residents in China have been said to
experience negative effects being downstream from a mining facility, though the claims have
mostly been dismissed or ignored by the mining industry. This negative reflection on mining
practices can have very terrible consequences, both from a health and brand perspective. In an
article from Graham et al. (2021), the authors sought to navigate the socio-environmental impacts
incurred by lithium mining. They found lithium mining was met with opposition from locals,
where real problems incurred during mining had negative impacts on the environment and their
lives. The negative image alone could lead to future resource scarcity and higher prices, and as
such needs to be fully understood.
2.2.4 Battery Capacity and Degradation

The amount of energy LIBs have been capable of storing, and maintaining over many cycles, has
directly led to some new opportunities with the B2U market. There will be a large amount of
batteries still containing 80% battery capacity in the year 2030, where these can be utilized for the
secondary-use battery energy storage systems. This will in turn provide more value for batteries
by easing the strain on the environment, manufacturing, and mining costs associated with the
production of batteries in the automotive industry (Cui et al., 2022). With these opportunities come
the challenge of being prepared for the coming influx of batteries which will require trained
professionals and a large working environment.
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2.3 Opportunities within the Electric Vehicle Ecosystem
2.3.1 Environmental and Societal Impact
BEVs have been proposed as light-environmental technologies that will enforce eco-sustainable
mobility. While BEVs do not create tailpipe emissions while in motion (tank-to-wheel), it should
be taken into consideration that the electric energy being utilized by BEVs could have been created
by means of fossil fuels (well-to-wheel). If this is the case, BEVs contribute to CO2 emissions and
air pollution (Pipitone et al., 2021). The use of EVs in countries which produce a high share of
energy using non-renewable energy sources will result in higher emissions than countries that use
more renewable energy sources (Franzò & Nasca, 2021). With this in mind, in order to assess the
environmental impact of BEVs, the sources used to produce electric energy must be known. In
addition, a cradle-to-grave approach should be adopted in order to carry out an exhaustive analysis
of the environmental impact of EVs (Velandia Vargas et al., 2019; Petrauskienė et al., 2020).
Pipitone et al. (2021) carried out a study to perform this evaluation by using a life-cycle assessment
(LCA) methodology. This takes into account the life of the vehicle; the production stage, the use
of the vehicle and the disposal of the vehicle. Several LCA studies have been conducted to assess
the environmental impact of EVs (Wu et al., 2018; Hawkins et al., 2012. Pipitone et al. (2021)
consider different vehicles with distinct technologies; an internal combustion engine vehicle, a
hybrid electric vehicle and a battery electric vehicle. Five different impact categories were
considered; fossil fuel potential, surplus ore potential, particulate matter formation potential,
terrestrial acidification potential and global warming potential. The study's results highlighted the
significant role the production and disposal phases played in the assessment of lifetime impact.
Regarding the production phase of lithium-ion batteries for EVs, there was a high impact on
mineral resource deployment, particulate matter formation and terrestrial acidification. This means
that the environmental impact related to these areas of interest is much higher in BEVs than in
ICEVs. Regarding global warming and the deployment of fossil sources, BEVs proved to be the
least impacting of the vehicles, provided that the electricity which generates vehicle propulsion
has been produced by a sufficient resource to renewable energy. Taking the average European
energy mix into consideration (25% from nuclear sources, 34% from renewable sources), the
global warming impact of the entire life of the BEV was 58.6% compared to that of ICEVs. This
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highlights how the impact of a vehicle's entire life must be evaluated and how such an impact is
influenced by fossil sources.
In another study which carries out an LCA approach, Franzò & Nasca (2021) offer
recommendations to policymakers in order to promote the uptake of EVs, based on their findings.
Given the high levels of CO2 emission associated with energy production, it is advised that
policymakers draft more robust policies in order to increase RES penetration; incentive schemes
and mandatory targets. In order to combat CO2 emissions which occur during upstream phases of
the vechicle’s life cycle, it is recommended that policymakers encourage the development of local
supply chains. This would benefit the environmental and economic impact of EVs. The study also
identifies an increase in CO2 emissions that occurs when moving towards larger vehicles. As such,
policymakers should consider provisions which would promote smaller EV vehicles (Franzò &
Nasca, 2021).
2.3.2 Recycling and Repurposing

An increase in the demand for a power source for electric vehicles has seen a surge in the market
share of lithium-ion batteries (Abdalla et al., 2023). This has resulted in a commercial opportunity
to recycle the batteries’ various components. Considering that Lithium-ion batteries have a
remaining volume of 80%, as well as the new specifications and models provided by EV
manufacturers which propel marketing, the economic potential of recycling and remanufacturing
is vast. In order for next-generation lithium-ion batteries to develop an enticing circular economy
value chain, special recycling procedures that can extract value from the elements found in these
batteries are required (Karapinar et al., 2013).
There are economic challenges associated with the current state of play regarding lithium-ion
batteries. The incorrect disposal of lithium-ion batteries results in lost economic potential. 70% of
hazardous garbage found in landfills can be traced back to e-waste (Abdalla et al., 2023). The
recycling of lithium-ion batteries can help reduce natural resource and energy waste while also
eliminating economic waste. Moreover, while the second use of batteries has become a buzz word
in research, an often-overlooked aspect is that its repurposing can affect the recycled content of
the battery in the future (Abdelbaky et al., 2021). The vehicle industry currently imports LIBs from
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Japan, Taiwan and China, while assemblies – cell to stack - are carried out in India. The
government has invested money in the local manufacturing of lithium-ion cells which should
improve efficiency and lower the price of EV manufacturing. However, considering the uncertainty
pertaining to geopolitical relationships, essential resources required for the manufacturing process
could be difficult to acquire or result in cost variations (Abdalla et al., 2023). This could be
remedied if lithium and cobalt - strategic minerals which have limited resource bases – are
leveraged to establish alliances with countries that boast plentiful mineral resources.
2.3.3 Battery Second Use (B2U) Market

The shift towards battery electric vehicles (BEVs) at a large scale requires understanding where
and how materials will be sourced, the lifespan of the new technologies, and what can be done
with the batteries once past optimal use for driving.
The current proliferation of BEVs is creating a situation where we will soon need to address proper
disposal of lithium batteries or the further utilization of this resource (Cui et al., 2022). What is
done with these batteries will likely be dependent on a number of factors:
• Cost of production (economic and environmental)

• Infrastructure development (both charging and grid)
• Social pressures and regulations
• Battery capacity and degradation
Challenges associated with implementing business models for B2U include technological
limitations, market dynamics, regulatory constraints and economic considerations, innovative
approaches (Reinhardt et al., 2019). Furthermore, collaboration among stakeholders is crucial to
overcome these barriers and realize B2U’s full potential (ibid).
2.3.4 Battery leasing & Battery swapping

EV adoption faces two critical challenges; high purchase prices and range anxiety (Shi & Hu,
2022). It is suggested that a battery leasing and swapping model is a worthwhile solution to both
issues. This model would also enable new opportunities such as flexible battery leasing. Flexible
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battery leasing offers the consumer the option to make primary leasing decisions with the ability
to downgrade or upgrade batteries temporarily for optimum usage.
Shi & Hu (2022) examine whether flexible battery leasing, with profit maximization in mind, can
reduce total battery capacity and customer cost when compared to simple battery leasing. The
problem is analyzed in two scenarios; one that considers flexible battery leasing as an innovative,
emergent solution that is supported by a tight battery supply. The other scenario represents a
hypothetical market in the future where flexible battery leasing is considered common practice.
The study concludes that, in both scenarios, total battery capacity and consumer cost are reduced.
This business model also improves the manufacturer’s profit, benefiting the consumer, the
environment and the manufacturer.
Battery swapping is difficult to implement, given the investment cost that is required in order to
install swapping equipment (Revenkar et al., 2021). In an effort to limit this cost, new vehicle-
battery separation business models reduce the vehicle owner’s initial investment, resulting in better
utilization and management of the battery’s lifecycle (Rivera et al., 2021). In the past, battery
swapping modes (BSM) have failed due to high investments, poor compatibility, a lack of financial
and policy support and a low penetration of new EVs (Chen, 2020). A study carried out by Zhu et
al. (2023) examines the economic feasibility of using BSM for heavy duty vehicles. They develop
the ton-kilometer cost evaluation model which is integrated in vehicle stations. This model
calculates the system cost per freight volume and unit mileage. They conclude that BSM results in
better transport efficiency when compared with Fast Charging Modes (FCM) and Slow Charging
Modes (SCM). FCM would require a larger grid capacity and SCM would require an investment
in charging equipment. Due to the necessary investments in additional in-station batteries and
swapping equipment, BSM’s competitive advantage is contingent on the station utilization rate.
The study concludes that, if the station’s utilisation rate is higher than 43%, BSM would become
the most cost-effective mode of energy supply for electric heavy-duty vehicles. While carried out
in the Chinese market, the study suggests that both its analysis procedure and economic evaluation
model have general applicability.
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2.4 Policy
A significant development has occurred at EU level in relation to new requirements for the design,
production, and waste treatment of batteries. The European Parliament has reached broad
agreement on the new rules with more specific details to be finalised. A carbon footprint
declaration and label will be obligatory for batteries used in EV’s and over time their design will
need to be adapted so that car owners will be able to remove and replace them on their own
(European Parliment, 2022). EV batteries will be given a “digital battery passport” showing make
and model, furthermore there will be a specific requirement for battery suppliers to ensure batteries
which are no longer required will be “collected free of charge for end users”, providing a
governance that caters for the life cycle of batteries and reflects a reduction in the use of substances
such as cobalt, lithium and others which are seen as seen as potentially hazardous to the
environment (ibid).
Furthermore, a new EU regulatory framework for batteries was recently announced by the
European Parliament. While the first iteration of the document had acknowledged EV batteries as
being key to the “rollout of zero-emission mobility and the storage of intermittent renewable
energy” (Halleux, 2022). It also acknowledged the need for a “sustainable battery value chain”
and including the effective recycling of energy as opposed to its waste would harmonise with EU
policy and protocol in this area, while contributing to better value to the grid and overall
environmental efficiency (ibid).
2.4.1 Regulations and Standards

In accordance with the Paris Agreement, climate neutrality is being targeted by the European
Union with aims to reach this goal by 2050 (Plötz et al., 2023). In alignment with this, climate
neutral transport should be achieved by 2050 (Axsen et al., 2020). The Fit For 55 Package, which
was presented by the European Commission in July 2021, contains a number of transport
components; standards focused on car fleet fuel efficiency, the Alternative Fuels Infrastructure
Directive, the energy taxation directive and standardisation processes regarding low-carbon and
renewable fuels. This provides European transport with the opportunity to realign its policies in
order to meet the expectations of the Paris Agreement (Plötz et al., 2023). While previous
contributions to literature have evaluated impact assessments on electric vehicles incentives
20
(Münzel et al., 2019), the Paris Agreement calls for actions to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees
Celsius. Transferring this goal into sector-specific policies remains an area of contention.
As it stands, Europe is not on track to reach zero-carbon transport by 2050 in alignment with the
Paris Agreement. A reduction of 36-42% in transport emissions is required by the year 2030 if this
target is to be met. Plötz et al. (2023) provide policy recommendations for developing a road
transport policy mix that is aligned with Europe’s commitment to the Paris agreement. It is
recommended that the phase out for combustion engine vehicles be accelerated to 2033 for
passenger cars and to 2034 to 2038 in the case of trucks. Additionally, fast charging electric cars
should be enforced by more ambitious standards. Finally, carbon pricing should not be considered
as a substitute to CO2 fleet mangement targets but rather as a complementary tool. As it stands,
alterations made to the Energy Taxation Directive alone will not meet fleet targets goals.
2.5 Business Models

Most definitions of a business model contain fundamental components including value
proposition, value generation, delivery, and capture (Osterwalder & Pigneur, 2010: Teece, 2010).
Ziegler and Abdelkafi (2022) argue that the absence of a business model is the reason for the lack
of fuller market penetration of EVs despite incentives and suggest that businesses recognise the
value created from EVs, such as the regeneration of electricity during braking, the cleaner source
of energy which comes from charging infrastructure and its price stability nature as well as creating
new identity expressions through a change in activity patterns. Furthermore, it is suggested that
actors in the EV value chain should leverage technologies to generate new value creation for
customers, such as third-party digital services at charging stations and advanced navigation on the
closest charging points in the shortest route (ibid). De Rubens et al. (2020) reaffirm that a lack of
a business model in the automotive industry has led to a delay in consumer uptake, arguing that
practices and production methods in the industry must be tailored toward the EVs to enable better
market penetration, value, and profitability while leveraging technology. Regarding EV battery
afterlife, Skeete et al. (2020) suggests the generation of a business model to combat the waste
produced. Moreover, Klör (2016) advocates repurposing batteries in their afterlife stage to increase
21
their ecological sustainability, outlining a decision support system to aid practitioners and
researchers alike.
2.5.1 Business Model Canvas

In order for innovation that is sustainability-oriented to be successful, it is required to operate
outside the limits of compartmentalised and incremental changes within the organisation. More
focus must be placed on making integral and integrated changes which reach both across and
beyond the organisation and its stakeholder environment (Adams et al., 2015). The adoption of a
business model canvas is an effective way to make such integrated changes. This is a common tool
that contributes to the presentation and definition of a business model or business model
framework’s main parameters (Afentoulis et al., 2022). This was initially proposed by Osterwalder
(2004). It offers a shared language for assessing, visualising and describing business models. While
the Osterwalder business model canvas is a widely adopted tool that promotes innovative business
models, it is restrictive in its economic-oriented approach.
Joyce and Paquin (2016) suggest a triple-layered business model canvas (TLBMC) to explore
business model innovation that is sustainability-oriented. This business model canvas adds two
additional layers; a social layer with the stakeholder’s perspective in mind and an environmental
layer which considers the lifecycle’s perspective. These three layers operating together allow an
organisation to understand social, environmental and economic value more explicitly. The visual
representation of a business model using this canvas supports the communication and development
of an integrated and holistic understanding of the business model, ultimately supporting the goal
of making it more sustainable. The three layers of the canvas provide both a horizontal perspective
within its own context as well as a vertical coherence by connecting across its neighboring layers,
even on a holistic level. The TBLMC was found to help users communicate and visualise business
models, identify and define information gaps and develop business model innovations which place
an emphasis on sustainability.
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Fig. 1 Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas (Joyce & Paquin, 2016)
2.5.2 Sustainable Business Models and the Circular Economy

Sustainable business models refer to strategies and practices that promote long-term economic,
social, and environmental sustainability; such business models aim to create value for the company
and its shareholders, society, and the planet (Nosratabadi et al., 2019). They are built on the
principles of the circular economy, which precipitates designing products and services to minimize
waste and pollution and maximize resource efficiency (Lahti et al., 2018). The circular economy
can have positive effects on the economy, the environment, and society. However, its
23
implementation calls for a fundamental change in how we view production and consumption.
Therefore, the circular economy can be used as a new sustainability paradigm, but its success
depends on the stakeholders' desire to work together and innovate (Geissdoerfer et al., 2017).
Fallah et al. (2021) refers to the need for two types of business models for second-life EV batteries,
one for the original manufacturer and another for the owner of an EV.
Fig. 2 Business Model for Primary and Secondary EV market (Fallah et al., 2021)
Several studies offer useful insights into the various facets of sustainable business models in the
context of the switch to renewable energy sources and the advent of electric vehicles. Furthermore,
several scholars have examined how businesses adapt to the transition to renewable energy and
the rise of electric vehicles. Costa et al. (2022) analysed how companies need to innovate their
business models to take advantage of these changes and take advantage of the new opportunities
that are now available as a result of EVs. Moreover, Lüdeke-Freund and Dembek (2017) argue
that sustainable business models represent a long-term transformation in companies' operations.
Establishing and maintaining strong communication links within and between academia, industry,
and government is crucial for the sustainable business model field to create new connections, and
share experiences to inspire researchers and practitioners in various fields (ibid).
Concerning collaboration and alignment between stakeholders in sustainable business model

development, Velter et al. (2020) highlight the importance of communication among all parties
24
involved in sustainable business models to work together effectively towards common goals.
Regarding the management of end-of-life electric vehicle batteries, Li et al. (2020) proposes a new
activity theory-based approach for end-of-life management considering the entire lifecycle of the
battery, from production to disposal, and identifies the key stakeholders involved.
Fig. 3 Activity theory-based model (Li et al., 2020)
Finally, circular business models have been explored in the context of electric vehicle battery
repurposing, as seen in the study by Schulz-Monninghoff et al. (2021) that evaluated the use of
energy flow modelling in the life cycle assessment of battery repurposing.
2.5.3 Circular Business Models

The circular economy has grown as an area of interest for many business organisations (Ferasso et
al., 2020). Economic opportunities, strategy and corporate values entice organisations to consider
value propositions that are based in the circular economy and deploy circular business models
(Lieder et al., 2018). A circular business model (CBM) aligns the organisation’s value proposition
with the conception, delivery and capture of value (Bocken et al., 2013). In contrast to the linear
business model, the CBM places a focus on high quality material cycles and high value (Korhonen
et al., 2018). The role of product design is significant in the development of CBMs; a product or
service that is designed based on a linear business model is not likely to create value in the context
of a CBM (de Kwant et al., 2021).
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Rizos et al. (2016) defined six challenges in establishing a circular economy as a restorative
business model;
➢ Business environment
➢ Practice and policy related to the economy
➢ Stakeholder’s interest
➢ Cultural differences
➢ Raw material availability
The consideration of these obstacles led Guldmann et al. (2019) to develop a circular business
model innovation framework. This framework addresses stakeholder, supply chain and economic
impact associated with being circular by narrowing or even closing research loops. In order for it
to be sustainable, the framework must consider ecological, social and environmental impact. Joyce
& Paquin (2016) developed the triple-layered business model canvas in order to address this,
discussed in more detail in the Business Model Canvas section. This framework is believed to be
suitable in evaluating CBMs. The goal of a CBM is to attain the greatest value utilisation from
products and services. This means that value capture must account for the triple-layered interaction
between three components (de Kwant et al., 2021).
➢ Cost per unit of time

➢ Energy and resource capture
➢ Sustainable value served
With the CBM Innovation Framework in mind, Lieder et al. (2016) and Bocken et al. (2016) offer
that a CBM must consider economic and environmental value capturing and delivery strategies in
the value creation process as a rule. As a result, supply chain, product and life cycle management
systems can integrate a continuous flow of reused products.
It is widely believed that the automotive sector would see economic benefit by moving towards a
circular economy (Groenewald et al., 2017). The demand for end-of-life vehicle recycling and
26
batteries in the wake of the growing EV market make this industry an urgent candidate for
participation in the circular economy (Gnoni et al., 2017).
2.5.4 Electric Vehicle Business Models

The development and incorporation of business models is considered one of the most prominent
and innovative trends taking place in the automotive industry (Yun et al., 2016). Traditionally,
ownership-based business models are dominant in the automotive industry. However, non-
ownership business models have emerged in the context of EVs (Huang et al., 2021).
An increase in the adoption of sustainable innovation faces challenges when the unpredictable
nature of technology is considered (Liao et al., 2019). This challenge cannot be fully overcome by
market pull, regulatory push and technological improvements (Harrison & Thiel, 2017).
Conventional business models have limitations in their ability to diffuse sustainable innovations
(Stoiber et al., 2019). As a result of the need for a larger group of consumers to access certain
services such as car sharing, business models that cater to the sharing economy have been
developed (Burghard & Dütschke, 2019). Business models focused on the sharing economy within
the transport sector can allow consumers to access EVs without the requirement to purchase them
at a high cost. While user preference regarding the ownership of autonomous vehicles has been
explored (Haboucha et al., 2017), there is less certainty surrounding consumer preference
pertaining to EV business models and whether or not the consumer is willing to switch to new
business models (Huang et al., 2021).
Literature on the adoption of EVs looks to understanding the preference of consumers based on
the EV buying model (Li et al., 2018). However, it is important to consider that ownership business
models do not lend themselves to wider EV adoption (Beaume & Midler, 2009). Adoption barriers
can be attributed to limited access to home charging facilities, accelerated depreciation of EVs and
reselling challenges, maintenance expenses, battery renewal cost and short battery life as well as
driving range limitations (Zarazua de Rubens et al., 2020). With these barriers and the need to
change the consumer’s perception of EVs in mind, there is a need for new business models. Various
new EV business models have emerged as an alternative to the standard buying model; EV sharing
(ES), Business to Customer (B2C) and EV leasing (EL) (Huang et al., 2021). Regarding the battery
27
leasing model, an EV battery’s lifetime being professionally managed can limit the negative
environmental impact associated with battery disposal. In EV sharing and EV leasing models, EVs
contribute less to vehicle miles traveled and encourage the use of public transport.
In a study carried out by Huang et al. (2021), it is concluded that the low-income consumer
segment may be enticed to EVs by offering the Business to Consumer EV sharing business model.
They also suggest that EV leasing and battery leasing models should consider consumers who are
car owners and perceive EVs to have a positive impact on the environment but are not swayed by
the functional performance of EVs. The study also finds that the perceived substitution pattern
between the EV buying, and battery leasing business models implies that car makers could
leverage the currently mainstream EV buying model to promote the battery leasing model, a
comparison which addresses depreciation and maintenance concerns regarding EV batteries.
Given the nature of this substitution, battery leasing is more likely to be considered and accepted
by consumers as an incremental innovation. On the other hand, EV sharing and leasing models are
more likely to be perceived as radical innovations. Battery leasing could also result in improved
sustainability within the secondhand car market by promoting the reusability of EV bodies. It is
recommended that users of the battery leasing model invest in the development of a network of
battery swapping stations so that consumers can replace batteries as required.
2.6 Circular Economy

Switching from the current linear model of economy to a circular one would not only bring savings
of hundreds of billions of US dollars to the EU alone, but also significantly reduce the negative
impact on the natural environment. (Lewandowski, 2016). The foundation of the circular economy
is the creation of closed production systems, in which resources are recycled and preserved in a
cycle of production and consumption that allows for the creation of more value over a longer
period of time. Despite the interest that policymakers and practitioners have in the circular
economy, academicians, particularly those working in the field of strategic management, are still
unable to provide a framework that explains how businesses that want to adopt the circular
economy might modify their current business model or develop a new one. We propose a taxonomy
of Circular Economy Business Models based on the degree of adoption of circularity along two
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key parameters after thoroughly analyzing the existing contributions on the topic via the lens of
business model literature. (Urbinati et al., 2017). Many nations, including the UK, have vowed to
become carbon neutral by 2050 in an effort to reduce the rise in global temperature to 1.5C through
the end of this century. A more recent paradigm known as CE has emerged to hold the entire society
accountable for achieving these challenging goals. Following a review of 114 definitions of CE,
Kirchherr, Reike, and Hekkert (2017) define CE as "an economic system based on business models
which replace the "end of life" concept with reducing, alternatively reusing, recycling, and
recovering materials in production/distribution and consumption processes, thus operating at the
microlevel (products, companies, and consumers), meso level (eco-industrial parks), and macro
level (city, region, national, and beyond)” (Dey et al., 2022). Governments, international bodies,
industry groups and the public continue public net-zero emissions. The United Nations climate
summit in Glasgow in November 2021, called COP26, highlighted its importance at length. Due
to carbon emissions being one of the leading causes of global warming, there has been a vast
literature examining the causes and alternative strategies for mitigating carbon emissions.
2.6.1 Importance of Sustainability in the Circular Economy

Since circular economy is a relatively new field of study, peer-reviewed studies have not yet
adequately covered how it relates to sustainability. Critical materials, which are those that are vital
to modern society but are susceptible to supply chain disruptions, are under threat from the
speeding up of resource consumption. The dangers associated with metal criticality have been
difficult to mitigate yet demand for these materials is still rising. Through solutions that allow for
the reuse, remanufacturing, and recycling of materials and products, the circular economy offers a
new paradigm for tackling the criticality of metal. To reach the valuable materials inside, however,
objects containing crucial materials are rarely made to be improved, repurposed, or disassembled
at the end of their useful lives. (Babbitt et al., 2021). In this article, we investigate the possibility
of design interventions throughout the technology life cycle that can facilitate circular economy
solutions and reduce material criticality hazards (ibid).
2.6.2 Circular Economy Indicators

Organisations can analyze their carbon footprints with the aid of protocol specifications from
carbon registries. Although the range of these procedures varies, they usually recommend focusing
29
less on supply chain emissions and more on assessing solely direct emissions and emissions from
purchased energy.(Matthews, H.S., Hendrickson, C.T. and Weber, C.L., 2008). Contrarily,
comprehensive environmental life-cycle assessment approaches are available to track total
emissions throughout the entire supply chain, and experience suggests that adhering to tightly
defined estimation protocols will typically result in significant underestimations of the carbon
emissions associated with providing goods and services (ibid).On average, just 14% of the overall
supply chain carbon emissions come directly from industry (ibid).
2.6.3 Waste Management and Recycling in Circular Economy

In more established EV markets such as Norway and the UK, issues pertaining to waste
management are highly prevalent. When EVs come to their end of life, markets are left with
stockpiles of lithium-ion batteries (Malinauskaite et al., 2021; Greenwood et al., 2021). Proper
waste management for lithium-ion batteries is crucial from both an environmental and societal
perspective. Effective collection and recycling strategies are one way of dealing with retired EV
batteries, such as designated collection points where owners can bring their batteries or a
decentralised collection mode through existing waste channels to gather retired batteries (Zhang
et al., 2021). A study on end-of-life battery stock estimated that by 2030, Ireland would have
substantial amounts of end-of-life batteries, calling for the need for effective management
strategies and infrastructure to tackle the increasing volume of waste (Fallah et al., 2021).
Furthermore, an assessment of Chinas end of life batteries suggested the need for effective battery
management strategies by employing recycling and reuse techniques while rendering such a
process environmentally and economically viable (Jiang et al., 2021). Stakeholder engagement and
collaboration to be a core strategy found effective in curating a circular business model for end-
of-life lithium-ion batteries, indicating technological limitations, regulatory challenges, economic
considerations, and lack of awareness among stakeholders to be hindrances (Wrålsen et al., 2021).
2.7 Implementing an Electric Vehicle Ecosystem

2.7.1 Standardisation and Product Design
The successful uptake of EVs over the course of the next ten years relies on the development of
universal infrastructures, international codes and standards and user-friendly software (Arancibia
& Strunz, 2021). The evolution of EVs has brought with it a myriad of new dimensions which
30
have impacted both the electric power and transport industry. In order for this new technology to
be operational in a uniform manner and on a global scale, every aspect of it must be standardised
(Das et al., 2020).
With regards to EV charging, standardisation can be divided into three areas; safety standards, EV
grid intigration standards, and EV charging component standards. Various regulatory bodies across
the globe have established standards related to these. Among standardisation organisations dealing
with charging components, the International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO) seeks to
standardise the EV as a whole. In contrast with this, other organisations are concerned with
component-level specifications (Das et al., 2020).
2.7.2 Collaboration, Strategies and Frameworks

The overall scheme of an organisation within which the growth of sustainability must be achieved
is complex and wide-ranging. It necessarily spans all aspects of the entity but relies on certain key
concepts and functions to reach its goal. A study on the role of collaboration in promoting
sustainability developed a framework with four main categories: relational capabilities, learning
and knowledge-sharing capabilities, resource mobilisation capabilities, and governance
capabilities (de Almeida et al., 2021).
31
Fig. 4 Collaborative Framework for Sustainability (de Almeida et al., 2021)
The four main pillars of the framework are broken into ten delivery strategies which aim to
transition the key concepts into actual outcomes (see figure 5). Collaboration is a vital tool within
an organisation whereby sustainability objectives are achieved. It entails the sharing of resources
and information, the alignment of strategic goals and objectives (Lozano et al., 2021). Another
framework is presented that engages leadership and culture as factors within the organisation that
must exhibit collaboration. In looking at collaboration in promoting corporate sustainability, a
multi-stakeholder approach was found to be most useful in solving sustainability challenges faced
by businesses (Vieira Nunhes et al., 2021). Such collaboration involves Universities and statutory
agencies who are encouraged to share research and methodology actively (ibid). The authors argue
for a conviction-based approach that goes beyond mere compliance and which seeks to embed
sustainability awareness into strategic decision-making (ibid). The bridge between concept and
delivery comes about through collaboration with organisational infrastructure. This collaboration
changes aspirations into outcomes. Another study found that Supply Chain and organisational
capability are the necessary underpinnings in which sustainable projects are delivered, and
attention to these are vital components for excellence (Kumar et al., 2018).
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2.8 Research Gap
The literature review above sought to understand two overarching areas which are highly important
to meet our research objective: components of the EV ecosystem and the circular economy. In
understanding all the critical ingredients to the EV space and getting a full grasp of the circular
economy, the researchers can forge research questions which can fill any gap between these areas
in a comprehensive fashion. The research gap found encompasses the circular economy specific
to the Irish EV market and how to implement an overall strategy to aid firms in the transition
towards circular practices. Providing practical and parsimonious suggestions was the overall aim.
Following this basis, the following research questions will seek to inform this gap in the literature
and give recommendations.
Research Questions: Filling the Gap
➢ What are the key components of a circular business model in the EV market?
The research above can point to numerous components involved in circular business models, such
as the need for high quality materials (Korhonen et al., 2018), focus on design principles (de Kwant
et al., 2021), and end-of-life recycling (Gnoni et al., 2017). This is an excellent place to start but
provides no real guidance for how to integrate this knowledge and provide guidance. The
applicability of the research to Ireland presents a unique opportunity to fill the gap in knowledge
around this topic and can generate recommendations for how to take advantage of the opportunities
CBMs provide.
➢ What barriers are preventing the implementation of an EV ecosystem within the circular
economy?
This question is rather specific, and the answer can depend on numerous factors. Some of the
factors which would need to be fully assessed are the raw material availability (Rizos et al., 2016),
economic viability and opportunity (Lieder et al., 2018), and how interested the Irish EV market
is to undertake CE practices. By gathering data on the current perceptions in this space, this
33
question can provide some specific and nuanced answers to the difficulty firms might find when
implementing circular practices.
➢ What business models, strategies and policies would be most effective to promote
circularity?
The idea here is to compile the knowledge gained from the literature and ask questions as to how
this suite of topics can come together to provide a holistic understanding and aid in generating a
framework to integrate circularity within the EV market. The triple layer business model canvas
by Joyce & Paquin (2016), strategic collaboration model (Lozano et al., 2021), and new EU
regulatory framework for batteries (Halleux, 2022) provided a strong place to start. By assessing
the nuances of how these BMs, strategies and policies apply to Ireland, the researchers will aim to
generate a framework to aid firms in transitioning to the CE.
In summary, the gaps found in the literature provide an opportunity for the researchers to
understand how to aid firms in the transition to a non-fossil fuel economy in Ireland. The output
of a framework will bring the findings into an easily digestible format, making the ideas presented
useful for both academic and practical use. The use of the CE as a method for meeting
sustainability goals (SDGs) further emphasizes the opportunity made available to the Irish EV
market.
2.9 Conclusion
This literature review has provided a comprehensive overview of the EV ecosystem, exploring the
current position, challenges, opportunities, policies, business models, and the role of the circular
economy. As industry transitions towards a more sustainable, non-fossil fuel economy, EVs have
emerged as a promising solution to mitigate environmental impacts and generate value for those
well positioned in the market.
The research highlighted several challenges that hinder the widespread adoption of electric
vehicles. One of the key issues is inadequate infrastructure, including charging stations and grid
34
capacity. Moreover, the high cost of production remains a significant barrier for both
manufacturers and consumers. Social pressures, such as consumer attitudes and perceptions, also
influence the uptake of EVs, necessitating awareness campaigns and education initiatives to drive
behavioral change. Additionally, concerns surrounding battery capacity and degradation pose
technical challenges that demand further research and innovation. However, within these
challenges lie promising opportunities for the EV industry. EVs offer substantial environmental
and societal benefits, such as reduced air pollution and enhanced energy security. The exploration
of recycling, repurposing, and the B2U market underscores the potential for creating a more
sustainable and efficient battery lifecycle. The concept of battery leasing and swapping has
emerged as an enticing approach to address consumer concerns regarding high upfront costs and
battery maintenance, though the application appears to be limited and has numerous barriers in
practice.
Further, the researchers uncovered the significance of robust policies and regulations to support
the growth of the EV ecosystem. Standardising regulations and establishing thorough frameworks
are essential to facilitate collaboration and strategy formulation among stakeholders. Furthermore,
sustainable business models, particularly those aligned with circular economy principles, are
crucial for long-term success and environmental stewardship. The circular economy, a
foundational concept underlying this research, is essential for achieving a sustainable EV
ecosystem. By optimizing resource use, promoting recycling, and adopting circular business
models, society can reduce waste generation and minimize the environmental impact of EV
production and consumption. Emphasizing sustainability within the circular economy framework
enhances positive environmental outcomes and fosters a more resilient and efficient EV
ecosystem. To implement an effective EV environment, collaboration among governments,
industries, and other stakeholders is critical. Standardisation of product design and technical
specifications will streamline manufacturing processes and promote interoperability among
different components. Strategic partnerships and collaboration will accelerate innovation and
foster a cohesive ecosystem that works towards common sustainability goals.
35
In conclusion, the literature review has shed light on the intricacies and potential of the EV
ecosystem. While challenges persist, the opportunities for environmental, societal, and economic
gains through EV adoption are substantial. Policymakers, businesses, and researchers must
collaborate and adopt sustainable business models within a circular economy framework to pave
the way for a cleaner, greener, and more sustainable transportation future. By addressing the
challenges, seizing the opportunities, and working collectively, industry can accelerate the
transition to electric vehicles and drive positive change for the planet and future generations.
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Chapter 3: Research Methodology
3.1 Introduction
The primary research objective is to develop a framework that promotes circularity within the EV
market. To achieve this, a qualitative approach was adopted, whereby data was gathered through
interviews with experts in their field. This qualitative case study approach was chosen to gain a
deeper understanding of this complex phenomenon, utilizing multiple perspectives to appreciate
the issues at hand. Through qualitative data gathered from interviews conducted over Microsoft
Teams, the researchers sought through thematic analysis and novel python coding, to extract
valuable insights, identify patterns, and interpret expert opinions to answer the research questions.
3.1.1 Approach to Answering the Research Objective and Questions

As previously mentioned in section 2.8, Research Gap, the researchers are aiming to answer the
research objective and questions by building off the literature and synthesizing new knowledge
with the findings. The original proposition was to aid in the transition from a fossil-fuel economy,
which the researchers took as an opportunity to provide innovative ideas for how to capture value
and promote sustainability with the primary research objective: Develop a framework to promote
a circular economy within the EV ecosystem.
To facilitate the data gathering process, the following questions were devised:
1) What are the key components of a circular business model in the EV market?
2) What barriers are preventing the implementation of an EV ecosystem within the circular
economy?
3) What business models, strategies and policies would be most effective to promote
circularity?
The approach to answering these questions was undergone by collecting data from a wide range
of sources in an interview setting. This is done using pointed and specific questions toward
experts in the EV industry, battery experts, professionals familiar with the circular economy just
to name a few. By taking a deep look at the perceptions of the EV space and CE, the researchers
37
can build an image for how to aid in the transition from fossil-fuels and provide a valuable
contribution to EY.
3.2 Research Design

Building on the aim to answer the objective and questions above, the researchers decided on the
collective case study approach. The case study approach is especially useful when attempting to
gain a deep understanding of a particular phenomenon or occurrence as it occurs naturally (Crowe
et al., 2011). More specifically, the collective case study aims to gather “broader appreciation of a
particular issue” by gathering data from multiple cases (Crowe et al., 2011, p. 2). This approach
aligns well with the needs of the research being conducted. Getting a more holistic perspective via
interviews should enable the researchers to formulate conclusions more effectively by diving into
the complexities of this research area.
3.3 Research Approach

Gathering qualitative data through interviews conducted over Microsoft Teams is how the
researchers will work to address the objective and questions. The interviews were semi-structured
and provided an opportunity for discussion following the initial open-ended question (Denny and
Weckesser, 2022). By posing open-ended questions to the interviewees, the responses can provide,
when pooled together, a meaningful impression of the relevant thoughts and attitudes of the
participants (see questions below). Early iterations of this project aimed to take a mixed-methods
approach, which would use both qualitative and quantitative data. Due to the variety of individuals
involved in this research, the inclusion of quantitative data gathering would introduce numerous
hurdles to creating and assessing survey responses, which would make completing this project in
the specified timeline highly difficult. Instead, the chosen research approach facilitated the
evaluation context-specific notions of the EV industry and the circular economy. The assessment
of these factors allowed the researchers to extract insights that can be applied directly to the EV
ecosystem. Emphasis was taken to focus on actionable and practical outputs.
38
Example interview questions
What future trends or advancements Where do you see Ireland ten

do you anticipate in business models, years from now in terms of the
second-life batteries, and battery success or otherwise of
leasing and swapping that could transition to non-fossil fuel,
further enhance the circular economy particularly in comparison to
within the EV industry? other countries?
3.4 Data Collection

16 Interviews were conducted over June and July 2023, which were recorded and transcribed. The
interviews ranged from 20 and 60 minutes in length. In preparation for each interview participant,
their background was assessed, and the questions curated to their expertise. In the lead up to the
interview, the questions were provided before the actual meeting upon request by the participants
(a copy of the interview questions can be found in Appendix). The questions were aimed
specifically to feed back into the research objective and questions. In addition, the interviewees
were given an information sheet before participating which outlined some of the key information
on the research and would be relevant to the participant.
Sampling Strategy
The participants were selected by the researchers using purposive sampling. With this sampling
method, the researchers sought professionals in a variety of areas (see fig. 1). Of the interviewees,
there was a mix of where they were sourced from:
➢ Two were from personal connections.

➢ Four were provided by the consulting partner, EY.
➢ The rest (ten) were gathered from LinkedIn.
A comprehensive search was carried out using keywords pertaining to the target candidate’s
expertise, job titles and industries. LinkedIn’s advanced search filters were leveraged to narrow
down the pool of prospective interview candidates. The researchers included interviewees with
39
various job roles, years of experience and demographic backgrounds within each of the industries
that were relevant to their research.
In addition, the following inclusion/exclusion criteria were devised:
Fig. 5 Interviewees by position and industry
3.5 Data Analysis

3.5.1 Introduction to Data Analysis
Now that we have discussed the approach to gathering data, the goal will now be to provide a
robust explanation of how this data was assessed and the methods utilised. With qualitative
40
research, the primary aim is to “gain a better understanding of phenomenon through the
experiences of those who have directly experienced the phenomenon, recognizing the value of
participants' unique viewpoints that can only be fully understood within the context of their
experience and worldview” (Castleberry and Nolen, 2018). Gathering meaningful insights,
identifying patterns, and interpreting the expert opinions provided by the interviewees is how the
researchers sought answers to their research objective and questions.
3.5.2 Data Preparation and Coding

In data analysis, preparing data in a consistent and meticulous way is of critical importance. Coding
the raw data is vital in order simplify the process and draw insights out more readily.
➢ “Central to qualitative analysis, coding reduces large amounts of empirical material

and makes the data readily accessible for analysis, while at the same time increasing
the quality of the analysis and findings” (Linneberg and Korsgaard, 2019).
The work on data preparation was achieved using Microsoft Excel and the analysis completed with
both Excel and Python. This will be expanded on further in section 4.6.4. The researchers took
time to ensure that the quotes used were free of grammatical errors and coherent. In addition, no
blanks, misspellings, or variability in the formatting was tolerated.
3.5.3 Thematic Analysis

The researchers decided upon thematic analysis as the best approach to gain interesting and
valuable insights from the data collected. Thematic analysis is known for its flexibility and being
well-suited to a wide range of applications (Clarke and Braun, 2017). Thus, in our application,
interpreting patterns and identifying themes was important, and this method provided what the
researchers needed. There are six steps to thematic analysis according to Braun and Clake (2006,
p. 87) which the researchers utilised:
1. Familiarizing yourself with the data – During this stage, the team spent time reading
transcripts and assessed which areas provided information were worth investigating and
which areas were not.
41
2. Generating initial codes – These codes help to identify a feature of the data. The team
combed through and made data-driven decisions for how to code the data – where the data
decides the codes. This is juxtaposed to theory-driven approach where the codes are
decided based on pre-determined themes.
3. Searching for themes – Once the codes have been decided upon, the analysis will shift
focus to the broader application of themes in which these codes can be sorted. The team
assessed the codes and started to collate them into the themes which started to become
evident.
4. Review themes – Assess the themes derived to ensure that a coherent pattern has emerged.
When searching the themes which arose during the previous step, the team was satisfied
that a compelling story could be relayed with the data gathered.
5. Defining and naming themes – Uncover the essence of what each theme is about and what
aspect of the data it encapsulates. During this step, the team started to lay out and explain
the story that the data was pushing the researchers to tell.
6. Producing the report – Without using overly complicated ideas or jargon, find convincing
arguments and vivid examples to relay the message your data is best-suited to tell.
Providing simple and parsimonious findings with recommendations is the aim.
at the same time you have to pull in you know

new employees who have worked in this field or
any researchers also.
And also there is other scope like you can tie up
yourself with some, you know leading universities
who are, you know working on this electrification
because they put the 24 hours into that systems,
right, the the PhD professors and you know this
I1 college students who are actively working on it Collaboration Collaboration
So of course the in terms of organization, first
they have to, you know, develop the skills what it
is required for making an electrification nearly
possible.
So they have to train their existing employees at
the same time they have to pull in some on your
engineers or new researchers who works on this
EV system to understand how easily or how
effectively they can make the system work done.
So you should not leave them alone and at the
same time you have to pull in you know new
employees who have worked in this field or any
researchers also.
I1 Upskilling Upskilling
Fig. 6 Extract from Codebook
42
3.5.4 Python
The qualitative interview data was analysed with Natural Language Processing (NLP) techniques
using the Python Language. An interdisciplinary topic within linguistics, computer science, and
artificial intelligence called NLP studies how computers and human language interact, with a focus
on how to programme computers to handle and analyse massive amounts of natural language data.
The team employed topic modelling using NLP technique to generate themes from the data which
was further used to compare with manual coding. As a component of NLP, topic modelling is used
to identify the subject matter of a group of documents based on their content and to produce
insightful conclusions from terms that are similar across the full corpus of text data. This process
is known as documents-based contextual analysis. The researchers also performed sentiment
analysis to understand the sentiments reflected in the transcripts to see if the interviewees spoke
about the themes in a positive or a negative light.
The researchers quantified the sentiments using a Polarity Analysis. The level of positivity or
negativity in a text is called its polarity. Polarity analysis is a technique used in NLP to identify a
text's sentiment, whether it be positive, negative, or neutral. The team wanted to present the
findings in a visual format, and thus created a simple dashboard using Tableau which was a sample
dashboard that could be deployed in the future in sustainability forums wherein people could
derive insights in the space from open research. These analytical techniques in qualitative research
provided an innovative method for interpreting and deriving insights from the data.
3.6 Trustworthiness and Rigour

To ensure the rigour and trustworthiness of the research carried out, the researchers had meetings
at the end of each week to ensure that all goals and outputs that had been set at the beginning of
the week were still in alignment. This helped to increase the validity and reliability of the data
collected. The researchers carried out weekly reviews, seeking feedback from an expert mentor.
Research design, methodology and analysis were critically evaluated to reinforce the validity and
ethical consequences of the research taking place at all stages. The researchers also carried out
peer debriefing. They enlisted the help of peers who were also engaging in research projects to
provide critical feedback and to discuss the research and data analysis process as well as
43
subsequent findings. This helped the researchers to view their research and findings from another
perspective, reenforcing the trustworthiness of their study.
Throughout the research process, each team member self-reflected by completing a weekly
learning journal. In these learning journals, the researchers acknowledged the collective progress
made during each week of the project and individual contributions. This process also allowed the
researchers to consider their values, assumptions, and biases and how these elements might
influence the research process and findings. Knowing their intentions allowed the team members
to ensure that they were not swaying the project in a particular direction, but that it was guided by
the research’s implications.
The researchers enforced an audit trail, maintaining a comprehensive and detailed record of the
research process; including literature collection, data collection and analysis. By implementing an
audit trail, the researchers and external parties could trace the steps taken and assess the
dependability of the findings and the rigour of the research carried out. All work was documented
using Microsoft’s suite of products. To triangulate findings, the researchers cross-verified their
findings with theoretical perspectives, particularly looking to the literature that had been collected
to reaffirm and bolster findings. The researchers implemented an inter-coder agreement as multiple
researchers were partaking in the coding and analysis of the data. This agreement ensured that
regular discussions regarding coding decisions took place to maintain the reliability and
consistency of data interpretation and increase the robustness of the subsequent findings.
3.7 Ethical Considerations

Prior to conducting interviews, informed, written consent was obtained from all participants.
Consent forms outlined comprehensive information regarding the interview process, the voluntary
nature of involvement in the project and any potential benefits or risks involved in participating.
Participants were also informed of their right to withdraw at any time and that they were at liberty
to decline to answer any questions that would be asked. The anonymity and confidentiality of all
participants was ensured. All collected data, including audio recordings and interview transcripts,
were stored securely and were accessible only to the research team and academic mentor. The
44
recordings were destroyed after transcribing. The identity of all participants was protected by
assigning unique identifiers which replaced their real names. When aggregating the data, findings
were presented so that the anonymity of participants would not be compromised. All views and
insights were represented accurately and balanced across different perspectives.
Ethical approval was sought and accepted through University College Cork, by the BIS Ethics
committee before participants were contacted and interviews were conducted. The research project
was done in adherence to the institution's regulations and guidelines as outlined in the submitted
ethics compliance form.
3.8 Limitations
While interviews were carried out to collect data, it is believed that focus groups would be
beneficial in further pursuits of research in this area of electric vehicles and the circular economy.
Throughout the course of interviews, it became clear that a key component in increasing the uptake
of circular actives within the EV ecosystem is the engagement of stakeholders. As such, regular
forums and continuous communication is required. Considering this insight, it is recommended
that in the future focus groups can be utilised to gain valuable knowledge related to aspects of
collaboration and engagement.
Additionally, the researchers had limited control over external conditions and variables that could
influence research outcomes. Technological advancements, evolving regulations and changing
market conditions could impact the circular economy and how it operates within the EV
ecosystem.
3.9 Conclusion
The researchers found that utilizing a qualitative case study approach to collect data through in-
depth semi-structured interviews over Microsoft Teams to be an excellent choice. In taking a
measured and deliberate approach to our methods, the team ensured that the rigour of this study
was of the highest standard. The additional strength of using Python to help quantify our qualitative
research afforded the researchers an opportunity to assess the data in a novel and innovative way.
The thematic analysis of themes found during the data collection process will aid in deriving in-
45
depth quality insights and recommendations. The results from these methods can be explored in
the following chapter.
46
Chapter 4: Findings
4.1 Introduction
The following chapter presents the data generated from primary interviews conducted for this
project. Findings will be presented as they relate to each research question. These findings are
based on recurring themes that were identified in the process of interviewing notable candidates
operating within industries pertaining to the research area. These themes were categorically
outlined in a codebook which refers to key highlights extracted from interview sessions.
4.2 Research Question 1

What are the key components of a circular business model in the EV market?
4.2.1 Second Life Batteries

When asked about key components of a circular business model in the EV market, the role of
second life batteries became a prominent talking point. A head of sustainability discussed the lack
of merit associated with the devolving of batteries; “When they're no longer good for propulsion
but they are still good as energy stores and as use cases...most in practice would not see a situation
where we are devolving the battery components and trying to extract lithium...it's really more about
second life batteries”, (i4). On the other hand, a senior lecturer in engineering expresses a counter
argument; “Battery second use doesn't make as much sense for cars...there's little reason to take
the battery out of a car with 100,000 miles on it.”, (i5). A sustainability manager agrees that an
EV’s battery should not require replacement but acknowledges that there are second life
applications; “If you really do want to change it (battery), there's still 70% capacity in that
battery. So that can be used as I said, for alternative jobs, and that can be used for another 30
years”, (i7).
In contrast, the adoption of second life batteries is encouraged by an EV chief technical officer;
who expresses concerns about battery capacity depletion in EVs; “It's 10 times more capacity is
needed in the vehicle than in a house. So when the battery is below that 70/80%...you could
actually remove those batteries, use them as battery storage device in commercial settings,
domestic settings...rather than the circular economy of recapturing elements at the moment”, (i13).
An expert in circular economy practices offers that the adoption of battery second life is not only
47
recommended, but from a waste perspective, is required; “In Ireland, we currently have about
2000 battery packs a year that need to be reused. That will increase to 50,000 battery packs a year.
These are 40 kilowatt battery packs that are available to be reused as storage...massive energy
storage in Ireland at no extra cost”, (i15).
Battery repurposing eases the pressure on upfront investment in capital costs for batteries as
batteries makeup a significant portion of the making costs in EVs and hence reusing them for other
purposes makes way for more contributors to derive value from the space, as highlighted by
interviewee (i2) “... So yeah, so the second life battery is not going to be a fully efficient car
battery...it is not gonna run for longer time in a car so, but there can be smaller other applications
like the commercial electronics side of you know the second resale thing. So the few industries that
recycles consumer electronics and you would require batteries for such things.”
“In Ireland, we currently have about 2000

battery packs a year that need to be reused. That
will increase to 50,000 battery packs a year.
These are 40 kilowatt battery packs that are
available to be reused as storage...massive
energy storage in Ireland at no extra cost”, (i15)
4.2.2 Education
The circular economy was a key theme discussed in the literature review and one which
materialised during several interviews. An expert in circular business practices (i15) highlighted
"It's about climate and then the approaches and some of the solutions we'll see will be circular,
but the end point here the objective is to reduce carbon or greenhouse gas emissions or adapt".
On the academic side, a senior lecturer (i12) defined the circular business as "it's about, you know,
reducing waste. You know, reusing things as much as possible....being more environmentally
conscious...finding ways to have longer life cycles of products... ".
A business consultant stated that the circular economy is not a term that people are familiar with;
“I think it's (CE) definitely like a knowledge gap and it's something that people should be more in
48
tune to”, (i8). An expert in circular business practices expressed the importance of having access
to independent information; “Oil companies, they have 100% vested interest in stopping this (RES)
and they have very deep pockets. So that's where we need education, and we need independent
academics producing stuff to say we're not funded by them. We are interested in the good of
society”, (i15).
A recurring theme throughout interviews was the need for education in relation to the current
landscape of EV charging, a reassessment of which could reduce range anxiety. In fact, a
sustainability manager suggests that it is not range anxiety, but rather charging anxiety that we
should refer to; “People are more worried about charging anxiety and not range anxiety. Electric
cars can only do 400 kilometres, but most people realise now that they very rarely do 400
kilometres”, (i7). In addition to this, the sustainability manager suggests that, for the most part,
charging will take place at home; “The car is fully charged because they've charged from the house
overnight and then they go to work and they might only have to charge once a week”, (i7). This
assessment is mirrored, perhaps more cautiously, by an EV chief technical officer; “Everybody
will come out and say there's not enough public charges. Now while I agree to a certain extent, I
would also disagree with that as well insofar as that you're gonna look at 80 to 90% of the charge,
it's gonna be done at home”, (i13). A head of sustainability anticipates that the future of charging
takes place at the home of the consumer; “In Ireland, we've an awful lot more house ownership as
opposed to apartment ownership in our mix, so I do believe that Ireland will have an awful lot of
home charging. I think most homes will have a home charger by 2030, whether they have EVs or
not”, (i4).
“Everybody will come out and say there's not

enough public charges. Now while I agree to a
certain extent, I would also disagree with that as
well insofar as that you're gonna look at 80 to 90%
of the charge, it's gonna be done at home”, (i13)
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4.2.3 Governmental Action
The government plays an integral part in improving Ireland’s charging infrastructure; “You need
government to really campaign for electric car charging. It (EV uptake) all relies on the
infrastructure and the charging”, (i7). A strategy is in place to address this; “Ireland’s national
Electric Vehicles Charging Infrastructure Strategy 2022-2025 published in January 2023 will see
€100 million spent on public charging infrastructure in Ireland over the next three years”, (i3).
The senior project manager goes on to state that, even with this strategy in place, investment is
required; “A fair current state assessment would be that Ireland’s charging infrastructure is not
where it needs to be to accommodate 1 million EVs by 2030; significant investment will be needed
in the coming years to install charge points nationally”, (i3). In terms of considering at-home
charging for residents who reside in multi-unit dwellings, a grant programme is in place; “We also
have a multi-unit dwelling grant programme in place where you can actually access up to 90%
funding to put charge points in these multi-unit dwellings...I would imagine two to four years the
whole issue and barrier around public charging networks should be completely removed”, (i13).
However, even with a grant programme in place, regulations surrounding apartment buildings need
to be amended to mandate a charging infrastructure; “If you're building like a block of apartments
there has to be a certain number of EV chargers there so that's great but it's all the existing
buildings that's probably the problem”, (i8).
A theme that became prominent in the data collected was the idea of balancing the trade-off
between increasing the uptake of EVs and reducing the number of vehicles on the road. The role
that the government plays in this is likely to determine the success of Ireland’s decarbonisation
targets; “It's to find the balance for the government...between reducing journeys and switching to
electric cause you can't throw money in one or the other... we started with the electric, now we've
moved into somewhere in the middle where we're going to try and reduce journeys while keeping
that momentum in the electric market going as well”, (i13). An expert in circular practices voices
a similar concern, stating that onus falls on the government to navigate this balancing act while
noting the current dominance of the ICE market; “The market produces 20 times more internal
combustion engine cars...they've got an economy of scale that can't currently be matched by the
small number of EVs being sold. So a government subsidy isn't about subsidising the car. It's about
balancing the market”, (i15). They go on to suggest further actions that should be taken by the
50
government in order to facilitate this trade-off; “It (the government) can also contribute to that by
reducing taxes. And an education campaign...so that people can be taught how to use an electric
car, charge an electric car, be most efficient”, (i15). The role that taxes and education play in
navigating the transition, particularly in the hands of the government, becomes clear in the data
collected. “We have one of the worst tax landscapes in Europe when it comes from thinking from
a manufacturer's point of view, because they send a car to Ireland, they will make less profit than
if they send it to somewhere in mainland Europe because of our tax landscape”, i13.
“It's to find the balance for the

government...between reducing journeys
and switching to electric cause you can't
throw money in one or the other", (i13)
4.2.4 Collaboration
In order to bring a circular business model in the EV market to fruition, collaboration was among
the most common finding. "Policymakers can't make policy for the industry in isolation so I think
the key is just to kind of get everyone in the one room (i8)". Furthermore, "I think it's
(collaboration) that's really important overall for decarbonizing transport (i9)". At the heart of
circularity is achieving net zero, this quote highlights the importance of collaboration. A head of
sustainability and strategy describes the success of using focus groups to promote collaboration
with a stakeholder; “Focus groups have gone on across the country. We'll be getting the report on
that in a couple of weeks and making sure that we're aligning our sustainable practises to what
their customer wants.” (i10). In a similar vein, a head of sustainability discussed the requirement
for regular forums; “I'm a firm believer in the idea that you have to have this dialogue regularly,
but all of them will be too early until you get to the point where it's the right conversation at the
right time.” (i4). They go on to discuss the conversations that took place throughout the 2000s
regarding climate change, the need for a circular economy and decarbonisation; “the dialogue has
gone from scepticism to ‘what's the implication of this’... the problem is normally the dialogue is
negative...instead of continuing the conversation regularly so you don't have to keep reminding
people.” (i4).
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A senior lecturer highlights the importance of collaboration in facilitating a circular economy;
“Do you want to cater to everybody's desire for energy and transport whenever they want it
and see if everybody can do everything all the time? Then you have no savings” (i5). A
business consultant echoes this sentiment; “We're gonna be asked by like government to plan
you know for example putting on a wash at night rather than six o'clock when everyone comes
home from work and is using their energy so we will just have maybe less choice with regards
to the way we go about our lives.” (i8).
“I'm a firm believer in the idea that you have to

have this dialogue regularly, but all of them will
be too early until you get to the point where it's
the right conversation at the right time.” (i4)
4.2.5 Charging Infrastructure

Integration of renewable energy into the grid is a key factor to improve the charging infrastructure;
“... integration to the existing system would be one thing that I see and then other thing would be
cost and maintenance. With renewables coming in, I see you will need regular grid maintenance
and you cannot just leave it like how you leave a gas station or petrol station”, (i2).
With regards to the forecourts across Ireland, plans are already in place to facilitate EV charging;
“With EVs, you can see that being a feature of our landscape, we'll absolutely have the forecourts
fuelling station as well...most of the major providers like Applegreen...they already have big plans
to convert big areas of their forecourts towards EV and charging”, (i4). While this development
is promising, a senior lecturer in engineering expresses concern when it comes to public charging
outside more urban areas like Cork and Dublin; “The problem is gonna be public charging...it's
not gonna be a problem for the suburbs”, (i5). The requirement for charging stations in rural areas
is highlighted by another interviewee, who suggests that urban areas are perhaps overly-equipped;
“The highest areas of adoption are metropolitan areas like Dublin and they're the places with the
best public transport links...we should be more targeting the areas that don't have good public
transport links because they have no other alternative other than their diesel car”, (i8). The
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business consultant goes on to suggest the puzzle which has yet to be solved related to the charging
infrastructure in rural areas; "All of these companies that would be delivering these charging
stations need more people to buy EV's, but people don't want to buy EV's because they're worried,
especially in rural areas, they won't be able to charge them”, (i8). A sustainability manager
suggests that this change starts with the deliverance of charging stations; “The more chargers there
are publicly, and people can see them, the more confidence people will get to convert to electric”,
(i7).
The interviewer’s(i6) words painted a picture of a gradual yet steady transformation in our
transportation landscape. "I kind of see happening is the number of EV will gradually increase, so
then the number of charging facilities will gradually increase. But I don't think there will be a big
rollout of chargers on the side of the roads in the morning or anything". The statement spoke of a
measured approach to embracing electric vehicles. Another interviewee states that the demand for
a charging infrastructure is already there; “Your challenge at the minute is the increase in the
adoption of EVs isn't being matched by an increase in development of the EV infrastructure which
was already inadequate...it's a definite off-putting factor until we get our act together”, (i15). The
senior lecturer in engineering goes on to discuss an analysis that was carried out to assess the
current state of the charging infrastructure; “We did an analysis. It was based on the number of
petrol pumps that serve ICE cars and then the multiplier of six for the need of EVs because they
charge slower. We found that there was an overall inadequacy of about 200 units”, (i15).
“The highest areas of adoption are

metropolitan areas like Dublin and they're the
places with the best public transport links...we
should be more targeting the areas that don't
have good public transport links", (i8)
4.2.6 Sustainability Practices

Evaluating the progress of our measures to promote Electric Vehicles comes with also measuring
the sustainability quotient; "We've established a set of KPI's, the three pillars of sustainability
according to various frameworks, but look at economic, social and then environment” (i4) The
53
interviewee’s (i4) tone conveyed a sense of urgency, emphasizing the need for a transformative
approach to address our environmental challenges. The idea of more EV charging facilities
suggested a world where sustainability and progress went hand in hand “There's going to be less
petrol pumps for your petrol cars and there's going to be more EV charging facilities”.

What barriers are preventing the implementation of an EV ecosystem within the circular
economy?
4.3.1 Supply and demand

The consumer plays a key role in the implementation of an EV ecosystem within the circular
economy. In order for this to be achieved, an increase in EV adoption is required. “So they (the
government) really need to incentivise the consumer to switch to EVs”, (i15). This research also
found that a need for more education among consumers regarding EVs is necessary to pivot the
industry forward. “But I think it’s the whole point around awareness and education. Everyone can
hear the word circular economy, but they don’t know what it means”, (i15). In addition to
consumers, education around circularity for manufacturers is also required, “I think definitely
education is going to be really important for I suppose both manufacturers as well as the consumer
and probably more so education with consumer and raising awareness”, (i9).
4.3.2 Linear Economy

The circular economy requires a cultural shift and reassessment of the current economic model of
growth in industry. A shift in culture was highlighted by (i12), stating "Cultural change in people
you know, to kind of, you know, to move away from that (economic growth model) and becoming
more sustainable... you know people kind of want to have new things you know and and it's in our
culture". Furthermore, (i12) also argued that "assumptions about economies as well, because you
know, we're all geared into growth and increasing sales and you know and all that kind of stuff.
And that's how our companies are judged to be successful and we're just destroying our planet,
you know, for kind of a crazy growth model that, you know is is, is gonna catch up with us sooner
rather than later". An expert in sustainability (i3) stated that “Our challenge going forward is to
decouple business growth from emissions growth, while supporting clients and maintaining our
54
distinctive global culture”. On the consumer side, (i12) stated that "Yeah, like the consumer has a
big role to play because we need to be willing to accept that we have to pay more for certain
things", while offering consumer transparency as a possible strategy "There has to be better
transparency of the the the price, fees and structures".
“Our challenge going forward is to

decouple business growth from
emissions growth, while supporting
clients and maintaining our distinctive
global culture”, (i3)
4.3.3 Grid Infrastructure

There are concerns about the grid capacity’s ability to meet demand; “The data centres are gonna
have to keep scaling up in order to be able to provide the energy when we have neither wind nor
solar, so there'll be whole bunch of challenges there”, (i5). Another interviewee voices their
concerns regarding data centres; “The demand for electricity is skyrocketing for a number of
factors, so number one; data centers...are being built constantly in Ireland which is putting a
massive strain on the electricity”, (i8). The business consultant goes on to elaborate on competition
for renewable energy sources; “Even though we have access to a lot of renewable electricity
generation, there's gonna be so many competing consumers for this energy and so it's just trying
to figure that out and I suppose use new technology such as hydrogen and storage technology”,
(i8).
A chief technical officer offers a solution to mitigate this demand, describing the implementation
of a smart network; “It's essentially smart services for the citizen, for the business, for the
community...a lot of it will come down to standards and communication protocols and how you
can essentially have control of every electric device and appliance out there so you can actually
balance the grid when there is the peak demand hits”, (i13). Vehicle to Grid (V2G) was offered as
another solution; “It's to allow vehicle to grid connections...your private car is hardly used 5 or
10% of its time. It's an energy storage unit that's very valuable for both balancing the grid and as
the store of energy”, (i15).
55
“It's to allow vehicle to grid
connections...your private car is hardly used
5 or 10% of its time. It's an energy storage
unit that's very valuable for both balancing
the grid and as the store of energy”, (i15)
4.3.4 Supply Chain transparency

Throughout the data collection process, it became clear that standardisation in the manufacturing
industry would be an area of interest in implementing a circular economy. The challenges related
to this requirement are related to a lack of collaboration and transparency in supply chains; “It
(standardisation) comes with massive problems as well, in that you'll have to convince
manufacturers to essentially open source their intellectual property that they could make an
absolute killing off of”, (i13). The need for transparency is also expressed by a sustainability
consultant; “they (manufacturers) have the technology to do all of this (transparency). but it's more
expensive because right now because there's less demand for the material. So they have to produce
it in smaller quantities”, (i14).
4.3.5 Battery Recycling

The lack of resources for battery recycling is a key barrier to promoting the EV ecosystem in a
circular economy and was highlighted by the interviewee i2 “..... battery recycling is one of the
biggest issues that is going on so far, like we do not have the best capabilities of battery recycling
or infrastructure to that is being set up for battery recycling as of now that there are a few, but I
don't see it as a very big industry ”.
It is suggested that battery recycling will become a prominent feature of the circular economy in
the future; “The more we electrify, then the more costly it is to extract the raw material, so there
is actually, in our current projected future, situations where lithium could become difficult to gain,
which will drive industry into recycling”, (i4). The head of sustainability goes on to say that
“Certain recyclers today are piloting innovative recycling processes...on things that they never
invested in before, mainly because they can see a situation 20 years from now where it's going to
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be business”, (i4). Another interviewee anticipates the development of battery recycling in the
future, citing challenges that are preventing current implementation, including skill and
standardisation; “There's a push to make them (batteries) recyclable, but that's probably not gonna
see any payoff for another decade because you need large economies of skill to be able to recycle
batteries... If everybody is doing different things and everybody's optimizing different things, is the
pack designed to be recyclable?”, (i5)
“Certain recyclers today are piloting

innovative recycling processes...on things that
they never invested in before, mainly because
they can see a situation 20 years from now
where it's going to be business”, (i4)

What business models, strategies and policies would be most effective to promote
circularity?
4.4.1 Business Models: PaaS

The Product-as-a-Service (PaaS) business model was idenfied in the research as a business
model through which sharing EVs can be explored. The idea of a shared model was highlighted
as a key finding in this research in topics surrounding the goal of decarbonisation and reducing
the total number of vehicles on the road. It's (lithium) like very finite resource so...I think we have
to just change the idea of owning things like that so yeah even if it's like a deposit return system
or you're incentivized to return certain items at the end of life.” (i8). The concept of shared is
considered the way forward by another interviewee, particularly in the context of establishing a
framework that promotes sustainability; “Sustainable EV framework would have sharing at the
heart of it, it wouldn't have personal ownership in the heart of it”, (i4). The head of
sustainability goes on to say; “We should have less cars on the road at the end of this transition
than ever before, and the only way to do that is through a framework that moves more towards a
sharing model...pools of EV's that people can call up”, (i4).
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4.4.2 Strategies: Scrappage Scheme
The findings in this research indicate that incentives like a scrappage scheme could be an effective
strategy to promote the transition towards EV vehicles. This was mentioned by i9 and i15; "trade
in their old ice vehicle and buy electric vehicle ...for the electric vehicle market where and you
know if you trade in your older battery or your older vehicle you then get a subsidy for purchasing
a new one (i9)". A scrappage scheme previously existed in the Irish market in the context of
petroleum to diesel cars "a take back scheme for cars that were all of a certain age. And you know
it was called a scrappage scheme. So you dropped your car in, you got a couple of grand for it,
but it then you could put that money towards your new car (i15)". Such a practice for ICE vehicles
to EVs is crucial in promoting circularity while also aiding the transition to sustainable transport.
4.4.3 Framework Strategy

Towards creating a framework promoting circularity "Sustainable EV framework would have
sharing at the heart of it, it wouldn't have personal ownership in the heart of it”, (i4). It was also
stated that "We should have less cars on the road at the end of this transition than ever before, and
the only way to do that is through a framework that moves more towards a sharing model...pools
of EV's that people can call up”, (i4). Regarding the end-of-life waste from EVs s it was suggested
"there has to be financial mechanisms there to make the logistics, then those collection systems
economically viable”, (i15).
4.4.4 Policy
Policies need to catchup with the advancements in renewable energy production or else they
might be a bottleneck; “In meeting 80% renewables-generated electricity by 2030, key barriers
will likely include outdated planning laws – which will hinder offshore wind farm development”
(i3). From a manufacturing perspective, a resource efficiency policy was suggested; “a resource
efficiency policy would help to maximise the use of resources and reduce waste and you know
optimise the lifecycle of of EVs” (i14). This policy would ensure that the production, use and
disposal of EVs is carried out in a resource-efficient manner.
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4.4.5 Incentives
Incentives for promoting circularity have been a recurrent theme that has emerged from the
research. One such finding was incentives for industry pertaining to manufacturers, specifically
towards fossil fuel industries to encourage greener options. This was highlighted by an expert in
i15 "... if we want to actually get to the heart of it (circular economy), we have to look at the
industrial incentives so that we can scale up big kind of connection". While "Zero Emission
Vehicles Ireland (ZEVI) was established in 2022 to support consumers, the public sector, and
businesses to continue to make the switch to zero-emission vehicles (i3)", moreover, "to
meaningfully engage stakeholders around implementing sustainable practices in the development
of EVs, the right incentives and/or legislation must be in place; the next iteration of the Climate
Action Plan could look to embed sustainable practices in meeting existing targets(i3)".
4.4.6 The role we all play

The question of ‘who is the most important player in facilitating the transition from fossil fuels
and, ultimately, in promoting circularity within the EV ecosystem’ was one that arose as the third
research questions was being investigated.
It is argued by a chief technical officer that research should be considered the starting point,
particular in the context of trials; “It all kind of ties together where you actually try something,
something's not working. Then you need to go get the theory done. You need the academia. You
need the research to be done to say, well, what will work in here and whether it's behavioural or
whether it's innovation or a combination of both”, (i13). The process of carrying out trials and the
consideration of behavioural factors in research also speaks to the importance of collaboration.
While research might be the jumping-off point, the interviewee goes on to suggest that, ultimately,
the public plays the most important role; “The Irish public, what they need and what they want.
That drives the research, it drives the people and government...people who work in the government,
people who work in the public sector like me...we're here to serve the citizens of Ireland”, (i13).
This assessment speaks to the importance of considering the behavioural and societal changes that
must be made. An expert in circular practices also highlights the dominating influence of the
public, suggesting that perhaps behavioural changes have already occurred; “The market is
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stronger than any other driver...people are very conscious of the environmental problems and the
demand for EV's way passes what industry can supply, and even government ambition”, (i15).
4.5 Dashboard
The use of artificial intelligence (AI) for qualitative research is a novel approach to understanding
qualitative data. Quantifying qualitative text data obtained from interviews was an enlightening
process. The researchers did topic modelling on the text data and generated themes from this data,
which was innovative for qualitative research. The most valuable key performance indicator (KPI)
was the “Sub-Themes” per interview portion, which the team found by dividing the overall count
of themes by the number of interviews. The quantification element of the analysis was the “Polarity
Average,” wherein the researchers quantified the average of sentiments across the different themes
and identified the themes which were spoken about in a highly positive light, as well as some
themes which contained mixed sentiments. AI is still not 100% accurate with any model, but when
these tools can aid research by improving efficiency and reducing workload by up to 80-85%, the
further application of this technology in qualitative research should be thoroughly considered.
Fig. 7 Dashboard
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Chapter 5: Discussion of Findings
5.1 Introduction
This chapter will set out to highlight key takeaways from the findings above, the value that is
envisioned for Ernst & Young and the implications of our recommendations on strategy. First, the
literature will be discussed within the context of the insights that have been gleamed from the
findings. Challenges facing BEVs will be explored. This will be followed by opportunities within
the EV ecosystem will be discussed; environmental and social impact, recycling and repurposing,
the battery second-use market and battery leasing/swapping. Then, business models will be
examined; sustainable business models and the circular economy, circular business models and
electric vehicle business models. Finally, a triple-layered business model will be presented,
incorporating key themes from our findings which have been identified as integral components of
a business model canvas which seeks to promote circular practices within the EV ecosystem.
5.2 Challenges for Battery Electric Vehicles

5.2.1 Infrastructure
The literature cites the inefficient charging infrastructure as an integral part of consumer
apprehension towards EV adoption. Mersky et al. (2016) identify a correlation between increased
BEV sales and strategically placed charging stations. The findings attest to this sentiment,
suggesting that there is too much focus placed on EV uptake in urban areas, where public transport
should be considered the preferrable mode of transport. Rural areas on the other hand lack the
required charging infrastructure to entice EV adoption. Range anxiety was identified as another
challenge in the literature (Anfinsen, 2021; Lorentzen et al., 2017). The findings suggest that this
stems from the state of the charging infrastructure, one interviewee explaining that ‘charging
anxiety’ is a more appropriate term as the consumer’s concern lies not with the range of the vehicle,
but with the lack of charging stations available on their journey.
5.2.2 Cost of Production

The literature reviewed describes the reduction in cost of manufacturing lithium-ion batteries
between 2010 and 2020 (Rajaeifar et al., 2022). Graham et al. (2021) suggest that this will lead to
an uptake in the adoption of BEVs which will in turn lead to higher quantities of lithium extraction,
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resulting in the volume of lithium being produced to more than double by 2030. This contradicts
the findings pertaining to this research, which suggest that increased electrification will increase
the cost of extracting raw materials, driving the market into battery recycling.
5.2.3 Social Pressures

From a social perspective, Graham et al. (2021) describe the negative connotations associated with
lithium mining as experienced by residents who live downstream from mining facilities in China.
Met with dismissal by the mining industry, these negative associations with lithium mining have
detrimental effects the health of all parties involved, brand image and the environment. This
highlights the need to consider battery recycling as identified in the findings. Considering
alternatives to lithium mining will also satisfy social pressures, perhaps even leading apprehensive
consumers who disagree with lithium extraction to consider EVs. The literature reviewed also
anticipates future resource scarcity and increased prices which has been reflected in the findings
(Graham et al., 2021).
5.2.4 Battery Capacity & Degradation

The literature indicates that new opportunities have arisen in the B2U market, with a significant
number of unused batteries containing 80% capacity estimated to be accumulate by 2030 (Cui et
al., 2022). Cui et al. (2022) go on to cite second life applications for these batteries such as energy
storage systems. The findings carried out in this research echo a similar sentiment. One interviewee
stated that, while it would be unnecessary to remove the battery from an EV when it falls to 80%
capacity, its second life applications should be considered in the case of doing so. Energy storage
systems were identified as one of the most favourable second life uses from this research. The
literature goes on to suggest that the anticipated influx of degraded batteries will require a large
working environment and trained professionals (Cui et al., 2022). This mirrors the findings from
this research which stresses the need for skills related to battery extraction as well as the required
infrastructure to do so.
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5.3 Opportunities within the Electric Vehicle Ecosystem
5.3.1 Environmental & Societal Impact
Franzò & Nasca (2021) suggest that policymakers draft policies promoting incentive schemes,
which will increase the penetration of renewable energy sources. It is also recommended that
policies promoting local supply chains are considered (Franzò & Nasca, 2021). Incentives were
also highlighted in the research findings in the form of scrappage schemes, which have already
been proven to be successful in the Irish market when transitioning from petrol to diesel vehicles.
The importance of promoting local supply chains also became an area of interest. A decrease in
the demand for materials has resulted in higher costs for manufacturers as they are producing them
in smaller quantities. This reiterates the importance of supporting local supply chains and open
sourcing intellectual property so that manufacturers no longer operate in silos (unsure if this is
relevant to Ireland given lack of manufacturing taking place here).
5.3.2 Recycling & Repurposing

The literature reveals that the demand for an EV power source has propelled the lithium-ion battery
market, creating an opportunity to promote battery recycling (Abdalla et al., 2023). This research
reveals that, as the continuation to electrify, the cost of extracting raw materials such as lithium
will continue to increase, driving the market towards recycling. The literature also points towards
the need for special recycling procedures which are required if lithium-ion batteries are to become
an intrinsic part of the circular economy (Karapinar et al., 2013). This was also highlighted in the
findings of this research, which emphasized the requirement for upskilling and education in order
to extract value from battery elements. The literature also points to new EV models and
specifications which suggest the economic potential of remanufacturing and recycling in the
context of marketing opportunities (Abdalla et al., 2023). This also highlights the need for
standardisation across product design as presented in these findings. Arancibia & Strunz (2021)
state that standardisation should be demonstrated in universal infrastructures, international codes
and user-friendly software. These universal standards would make the implementation of a
recycling infrastructure economically and logistically feasible.
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5.3.3 Battery Leasing & Battery Swapping
The literature pointed to battery leasing and swapping as a business model that can tackle two
critical challenges facing EV adoption; range anxiety and high purchase prices (Shi & Hu, 2022).
Revankar et al. (2021) acknowledge that battery swapping would be challenging to implement
when the cost of installing swapping equipment is considered. Chen (2020) cites the problems that
have prevented the successful implementation of such a model before; high investments and a lack
of policy and financial support. While Huang et al. (2021) point towards the application the battery
leasing model as a method of improving sustainability in the secondhand car market and may be
seen as innovative, the data collected herein indicates that battery leasing is not feasible or practical
in the Irish EV market when the costs of implementing such an infrastructure is considered.
Participants in the research see more value in the EV sharing model and improving the charging
infrastructure.
5.4 Business Models

5.4.1 Sustainable Business Models & the Circular Economy
The papers reviewed reveal that the successful implementation of a circular economy requires a
shift in the way production and consumption are perceived as well as a desire on the part of the
stakeholder to collaborate and innovate (Geissdoerfer et al., 2017). This reflects the data from this
research which calls for a behavioural change, particularly in the context of shifting from the idea
of individual ownership to shared ownership of EVs in order to reduce the total number of vehicles
on the road and to promote circularity. Regarding sustainable business model development, Velter
et al. (2020) state the importance of communication and working together towards a unified goal,
stressing once again the significant role that collaboration plays as expressed in the findings in this
research. With regards to battery repurposing, the literature recommends a circular business model
that implements energy flow modelling as part of the life cycle assessment of battery repurposing
(Schulz-Monninghoff et al., 2021). The research findings indicate that second life batteries should
be considered in the Irish market while understanding the life cycle of batteries to ensure resource
efficiency.
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5.4.2 Electric Vehicle Business Models
The literature states that the automotive industry traditionally adopts ownership-based business
models, with the emergence of non-ownership-based business models being favored in relation to
EVs (Huang et al., 2021). This coincides with the findings in this research which indicate the
necessity of shared ownership in order to meet decarbonisation targets. Huang et al. (2021) go on
to discuss the uncertainty surrounding consumer willingness to switch to new business models,
with a preference for the ownership of vehicles being instilled in the culture. This highlights the
behavioural changes that are required and the need for education as identified in these research
findings. If the consumer and the market drive the public sector, government decisions and
research as these research findings suggest then these behavioural changes need to be considered
if non-ownership business models are to be successful. The need for this shift in perspective is
highlighted by the literature which reveals that ownership-based business models are not
successful in increasing EV adoption (Beaume & Midler, 2009), while sharing models promote
the use of public transport and reduce the total number of vehicle miles travelled (Huang et al.,
2021). This coincides with the research conducted, which equates the use of sharing models with
a decrease in the number of vehicles on the road and an increase in EV uptake. The literature
suggests that EV leasing models could entice consumers who own ICE vehicles and understand
the positive impact that EVs have on the environment but remain apprehensive about their
functional performance (Huang et al., 2021). The leasing model could then act as a vessel through
which behavioral change can be activated.
Zarazua de Rubens et al. (2020) examine the barriers preventing EV adoption; limited access to
home charging, the accelerated depreciation of EVs, maintenance expenses and range anxiety.
These barriers were addressed in this research study, many of which come down to misconceptions
and a lack of information surrounding EVs. One interviewee suggested that ‘driving range anxiety’
is really a reflection of charging anxiety, which itself should be reconsidered as cause for concern.
The research findings also reveal that, while the upfront cost of EVs exceeds that of ICE vehicles
for the time being, the maintenance expenses associated with EVs will see a return in the long run
when compared to ICE vehicles. The current expense of EVs can be attributed to the exclusivity
of higher-end vehicles on the market, which speaks to the need for standardisation across
manufacturers in order to make EVs more accessible to a wider reach of consumers.
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5.5 Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas
Adams et al. (2015) highlighted that in order for sustainable innovation to be successful,
organisations need to shift their focus towards integrated changes that take into account actors that
are beyond the organisation and its stakeholders. This speaks to these research findings which
revealed the importance of collaboration in achieving success in the realm of sustainability. The
literature also suggests that adopting a business model canvas would facilitate collaborative and
integrated change (Adams et al., 2015). Joyce & Paquin (2016) offer the triple-layered business
model canvas. This canvas features a social layer viewed through the lens of the stakeholder,
mirroring these research findings which reveal the importance of stakeholder engagement in
promoting circular practices. The triple-layered business model canvas also has an environmental
layer which takes lifecycle into account (see Figure 9). To that end, this research highlights the
need to consider the lifecycle of EVs as evidenced by the Resource Efficiency Policy.
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Fig. 8 Tripled-Layered Business Model Canvas
5.5.1 Key themes within the Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas

• Education
Charging anxiety acts as a barrier for those reluctant to drive EVs, as identified in this
research. It became clear from this research that there was a lack of education informing
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consumers of the reasons why this anxiety is perhaps unfounded and misguided. Vehicle
owners are concerned that there are not enough charging stations in Ireland. They are not
aware that charging will generally take place at the home, during the night. With regards
to range anxiety, there is the misconception that the EV will need to be charged before they
can access a charging station, when in fact the likelihood of undertaking a journey longer
than 400km should be considered.
• Supply chain transparency

Manufacturers must consider open sourcing their intellectual property in order to facilitate
standardisation across manufacturing. This becomes a challenge because manufacturers
can retain higher profits by keeping their trade secrets to themselves. Additionally, because
there is currently less demand for materials, manufacturers are producing components in
smaller quantities in order to reduce costs, making them even less likely to consider open
sourcing. While open sourcing intellectual property is considered to be an effective
approach to implementing standardisation as identified in this research, the manufacturer’s
perspective raises a counterargument worth considering.
• Battery Recycling
The findings of this research reveal that the more we continue to electrify, the more costly
it will become to extract raw materials such as lithium, meaning battery recycling will
become a prominent fixture of the circular economy. Currently, a lack of skill and
standardisation are preventing the successful implementation of battery recycling. This
speaks to the requirement for education, collaboration and a willingness or perhaps even a
mandate to open-source intellectual property.
• Charging Infrastructure
The charging infrastructure in Ireland looks promising, with the implementation of
charging stations at forecourts already being planned. Despite this, a common area of
concern that arose in interviews was the lack of a charging infrastructure in rural areas. It
was stated there is too much interest in EV implementation in urban areas, which already
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have efficient access to public transport. Rural areas, on the other hand, rely on ICE
vehicles for transport. A problem that arises in facilitating a transition to EVs in rural areas
stems from the companies who are not encouraged to deliver charging stations to areas
where EV adoption rates are low. On the other side of the coin, residents in these areas are
reluctant to purchase EVs because of the lack of a charging infrastructure. One interviewee
stated that this change has to start with the companies, explaining that when more chargers
are available publicly, people will be encouraged to lean into the transition. It is interesting
to think about this challenge in the context of the findings in this research with state that
most charging will take place at the home.
• Governmental Action
The government plays a vital role in campaigning for EV charging in Ireland. It became
clear from this research that, even with a national EV charging infrastructure strategy in
place, significant investment is required on the part of the government in order to
accommodate the forecasted, or at least intended demand of having one million EVs on the
road by 2030. An interesting insight that arose a number of times in relation to this
ambitious target was the idea of balancing a trade-off between increasing the number of
EVs on the road with reducing the number of vehicles being driven. The government plays
a substantial role in overseeing the execution of this trade-off. A couple of factors are at
play that need to be considered. In terms of the transition, we have entered an era where
EVs have become omnipresent in the market. Now, the focus needs to shift towards keeping
that momentum of EV uptake on the rise while also thinking about reducing journeys across
the board. With this balancing act in mind, the role of ICE vehicles, which currently
dominate the market, needs to be considered.
5.6 What value do you envision?

This roadmap will allow SMEs to carry out two processes;
• Prepare to enter the circular economy
• Leverage circular practices informed by external factors and regular SWOT check-ins
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Fig.9 Circular Economy Roadmap-Framework
This roadmap acknowledges that, before an SME engages in circular practices, it is advised that
they carry out preliminary steps. These steps ensure that a syncronished and unified strategy is
defined by considering stakeholder engagement and educational initiatives.
Once an SME has carried out a readiness assessment to ensure all advised preliminary stages have
been completed, they may enter into the cyclical roadmap. Here, they will move through stages
which have been identified as valuable components of the circular economy through our findings.
Additionally, carrying out regular health-checks as an SME navigates the transition from linear to
circular practices will help to mitigate risks.
5.7 How can this impact strategy?

At each stage of the roadmap which features an ‘orange light signal’, the user of the roadmap
should carry out a SWOT analysis in the context of the given stage. This will mean that, as they
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continue to travel around the roadmap, decisions related to strategy are constantly being updated
and informed by changes taking place in the external environment as they relate to the strengths,
weaknesses, opportunities and threats facing the business. In other words, this roadmap implores
the business to carry out regular health checks as they continue to navigate their transition towards
renewable energy sources and circular practices.
Fig. 10 SWOT Analysis
Additionally, this roadmap asks businesses to consider strategy through the lens of collaboration,
with the goal of decarbonisation in mind. How will the role of the government, researcher,
manufacturer, researcher and consumer drive strategy? Given the roadmap’s cyclical nature,
strategy will be considered as a continuous process without a definitive end. This highlights the
importance of continuous collaboration as well as regular SWOT analyses.
5.8 How have you answered research questions?

The first research question seeks to identify the key components of a circular business model in
the EV market. These have been outlined in our findings as identified through interviews carried
out and include second life batteries, education, governmental action, collaboration and the
charging infrastructure.
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The second research question considers the barriers that are preventing the implementation of an
EV ecosystem within the circular economy. The most prevalent barriers facing implementation in
the Irish market were identified and are as followed; grid infrastructure, supply chain transparency
and battery recycling.
The third research question investigates the business models, strategies and policies that would be
most effective in promoting circular practices. Our research concludes that a Product-as-a-Service
(PaaS) business model would be most effective in shifting the consumer’s perception of ownership
from an individual-based model to a shared model. In terms strategy, the scrappage scheme, which
has already proven to be successful in the Irish market when promoting the transition from petrol
to diesel cars, would be an effective strategy to promote the uptake of EVs in replacement of ICE
vehicles. The resource efficiency policy was identified as a worthwhile consideration in the Irish
market, helping to extend the use of resources, reduce waste and extend the lifecycle of electric
vehicles, ultimately minimising their environmental impact.
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Chapter 6: Recommendations and Conclusion
6.1 Recommendations
This section will provide recommendations from the discussion as well as recommendations for
industry.
Industry
➢ Infrastructure is a crucial component in increasing the adoption of Electric Vehicles. It is

therefore recommended that more research be conducted into electrifying rural areas. It is
also recommended that technology be leveraged to pinpoint charging infrastructure
availability for users on the island of Ireland. Moreover, education campaigns and charging
availability should be used to mitigate charging anxiety.
➢ Societal pressures and cost of production, both physically and monetarily, remain
controversial concerning BEVs. It is recommended that industry looks into alternative
battery cell technology and components and to engage in circularity concerning end-of-life
EV batteries. Resource scarcity around dependent supply chains is a future threat identified
from this research. It is suggested that countries with such dependencies look into
alternative markets for BEV supply.
➢ Battery capacity and degradation; with increases in battery capacity coming down the
tracks, it is advised that batteries be repurposed in industry. Due to concerns around battery
degradation, further research should be conducted into technologies that can subdue the
battery fate and for upskilling of the workforce to aid battery extraction.
➢ More quantifiable evidence and awareness around the value that can be generated from
recycling and repurposing end-of-life EVs is required on an industry level. Moreover, a
thorough investigation into the new EU battery regulation will aid in the repurposing of
battery components.
➢ Battery swapping and leasing; while the literature suggests that swapping and leasing is a
path forward for the EV space, the research found that in the context of Ireland, battery
leasing is not feasible due to the lack of vehicle manufacturing on an industry level, it is
recommended that collaboration and partnership with OEMs to galvanise battery leasing
going forward.
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➢ Sustainable Business Models & the Circular Economy; this research recommends that
sharing car ownership should be implemented on a smaller scale first and foremost. In
order to rethink consumption trends and reduce environmental impact on industry and
consumers, leveraging data analytics to create KPIs to mitigate negative consequences is
suggested. Collaboration is a crucial factor in bolstering circularity forward. Therefore, it
is suggested that when utilising business models that thinking collectively be involved.
➢ Second Life Batteries

When asked about the application of second life batteries, differing views were presented as to the
merit of taking a battery out of a car for second use. It was suggested that the battery taken out of
a car with 100,000 miles accumulated would have no practical uses. On the other end of the
spectrum, another interviewee stated that due to the battery capacity required in vehicles, a battery
that still retains 70-80% capacity has many second life applications once it is no longer suitable
for propulsion; as a storage device and in domestic or commercial settings. The adoption of battery
second life then becomes imperative, particularly in the context of the waste accumulation of
battery packs. Additionally, the use of battery packs as a storage device would reduce the cost of
Ireland’s investment in a storage infrastructure. What most interviewees seemed to agree on is that
devolving the battery to extract lithium is less preferable to the consideration of second life
applications, primarily as an energy store.
➢ Grid Infrastructure
A rise in the number of consumers who are competing for renewable energy sources means that
new storage technologies must be considered in order to balance the grid. One solution is to
consider the control capabilities provided by smart networks, which would allow communities and
businesses to control their electric devices and appliances during periods of peak demand on the
grid, helping to balance it. Vehicle to Grid technology was also recommended as a solution. The
battery from an electric vehicle, which is used only five to ten percent of the time according to one
interviewee, could be used as an energy storage system to balance the grid.
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Research
➢ In order to get consumers on board with Electric Vehicle Business Models, both industry,
academics, and researchers should conduct regular focus groups and consumer attitude
surveys to understand their concerns and pain points.
Information about the current state of charging in Ireland should be readily available to relinquish
some of the consumer’s anxiety.
➢ Collaboration
A significant finding that arose is the need to have regular conversations about the transition
towards an EV market, even if the market is not ready to have these conversations. This brought
to light the idea of having national forums. This would ensure that the conversation is being had
on a regular basis so that when the timing is right, people are already engaged in the area of interest
rather than trying to catch up to what it’s about. It was also expressed that, when these
conversations are few and far between, the perception of the topic is negative. Engaging in regular
forums would mean that those negative interpretations of the current landscape will be shed
quickly, making room for insightful innovation and productive collaboration.
➢ Governmental Action
A government subsidy for EV vehicles is required to challenge the ICE vehicle’s economy of scale.
Another barrier that came up in facilitating this trade-off was the tax landscape in Ireland, which
currently stands as one of the worst in Europe. As a result, manufacturers are not compelled to
send their cars to the Irish market. As such, reducing taxes would benefit the transition.
6.2 Conclusion
The projected continuous growth of the EV market presents challenges for how to adapt and
transition from ICE vehicles, as these industries are intrenched in their “way of doing business”.
As the automotive industry continues to evolve, the need for quality research and novel, innovative
ideas will only become more necessary. The opportunities EVs represent are not only from an
economic dimension but an environmental and human one as well. The warming of the planet will
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continue to harm the oceans on which much of human civilization depends. While EVs are not a
silver bullet solution by any means, they do provide an immediate impact by reducing the
emissions which are propelling our warming climate into dangerous territory.
The opportunities here are not only in the elimination of ICE vehicles on the roads, but there are
numerous uses at EOL for these EVs. But to fully realize the value in these components, care must
be taken in the product design and whether the use-case is fit for the purpose. B2U and V2G
represent a value adding and sustainable option. In an ideal scenario, these batteries can be used
as grid storage for renewable sources, helping meet energy demand to ease the burden placed on
existing infrastructure. This method is positioned in a sustainable ecosystem, given the number of
valuable EV batteries which will be entering the second use market over the coming years.
The CE represents a fully encompassing method for ensuring sustainability and the added capture
of value in the EV ecosystem. The circular framework is the culmination of our work and produces
a valuable contribution to aid in the transition from fossil fuels. Though it is important to consider
the pace at which the EV industry is moving. As the industry continues to develop, there will likely
evolve more opportunities and the framework would need to be amended to reflect. However,
given these limitations, the overall goal of generating a generalizable and circular framework was
achieved and all key components found in our data gathering process have been integrated where
appropriate.
As we look further into the future, a cultural shift in consumption practices must be undertaken.
The linear economy and “fast fashion” trends in numerous industries are the direct counterpoint to
the ideas presented in this thesis. The circular economy of EVs represents practices which are
sustainable and economically viable, which is good for both the economy and the future health of
our planet.
76
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Concept Centric Matrix
Implementing an
Circular Economy and Business Electirc Vehicle
# of Challenges Opportunities Models Ecosystem
ARTIC
LE Conc Neg. Seco
epts Cons Ene Gri Busi nd
NAME Per umer rgy d Govt Battery ness Use Battery
Sour Infrastr Perce Gri Recy Stor Incen Leasing/S Mod Batt C Manag Pol Strat Frame
ce ucture ption d cling age tives wapping els eries E ement icy egies works
Total
Sources
Per 1
Concept 14 6 3 11 3 5 10 37 9 5 7 15 21 8
Abdalla,
A.M. et
al.
(2023) 1 1
Abdelba
ky, M.
et al.
(2021) 1 1
Adams,
R. et al.
(2015) 1 1
Afentou
lis, K.D.
et al.
(2022) 1 1
Anfinse
n, M.,
2021 2 1 1
Arancib
ia, A.
and
Strunz,
K.
(2012) 2 1 1
Axsen,
J. et al.
(2020) 1 1
85
Babbitt,
C.W.
(2021) 1
Beaume
, R. and
Midler,
C.
(2009) 1 1
Bjerkan,
K.Y.
(2016) 1 1
Bocken,
N. et al.
(2013) 2 1 1
Burghar
d, U.
and
Dütschk
e, E.
(2019) 2 1 1
Chen,
Z.
(2020) 2 1 1
Costa,
E.
(2022) 3 1 1 1
Cui, X.
et al.
(2022) 3 1 1 1
Das,
H.S. et
al.
(2020) 2 1 1
de
Almeida
, J.M.G.
et al.
2021 2 1 1
de
Kwant,
C. et al.
(2021) 1 1
86
De
Rubens,
G.Z et
al. 2020 2 1 1
Dey,
P.K. et
al.
(2022) 1 1
Europea
n
Commis
sion
(2023) 1 1
Europea
n
Parliam
ent
(2022) 1 1
Fallah,
N. et al.
2021 4 1 1 1 1
Ferasso,
M. et al.
(2020) 1 1
Figenba
um, E.,
2017 1 1
Franzò,
S. and
Nasca,
A.
(2021) 2 1 1
Geissdo
erfer,
M. et al.
2017 2 1 1
Ghosh,
A.,
2020 1 1
Gnoni,
M.G. et 2 1 1
87
al.
(2017)
Graham
, J. D. et
al.
(2021) 1 1
Greenw
ood, M.
et al.
2021 1 1
Groene
wald, J.
et al.
(2017) 1 1
Guldma
nn, E.
(2019) 3 1 1 1
Halleux,
V.
(2022) 2 1 1
Hannisd
ahl,
O.H.
2013 1 1
Harriso
n, G.
and
Thiel,
C.
(2017) 1 1
Hawkin
s, T.R.
et al.
(2012) 1 1
Henders
on, J.,
2020. 1 1
Huang,
Y. et al.
(2021) 5 1 1 1 1 1
88
Jiang, S.
et al.
2021 3 1 1 1
Joyce,
A. and
Paquin,
R.L.
(2016) 1 1
Karapin
ar, N. et
al.
(2013) 2 1 1
Klör, B.
et al.
2018 4 1 1 1 1
Korhon
en, J. et
al.
(2018) 2 1 1
Kumar,
G. et al.
2018 1 1
Lahti,
T. et al.
2018 1 1
Lewand
owski,
M.,
2016. 1 1
Li, J. et
al. 2020 4 1 1 1 1
Li, W.
et al.
(2018) 1 1
Liao, F.
et al.
(2019) 2 1 1
Lieder,
M. et al.
(2018) 3 1 1 1
89
Lorentz
en, E. et
al. 2017 1 1
Lozano,
R. et al.
2021 2 1 1
Lüdeke-
Freund,
F. and
Dembek
, K.,
2017 2 1 1
Malinau
skaite,
J. et al.
2021 2 1 1
Matthe
ws, H.S.
et al.
2008 1 1
Melin,
H.E.
(2019) 2 1 1
Mersky,
A.C. et
al. 2016 1 1
Münzel,
C. et al.
(2019) 2 1 1
Nosrata
badi, S.
et al.
2019 3 1 1 1
Oireacht
ais
(2022) 1 1
Osterwa
lder, A.
and
Pigneur,
Y.,
2010 1 1
90
Osterwa
lder, A.,
2004. 1 1
Petrausk
ienė, K.
et al.
(2020) 1 1
Pipitone
, E. et
al.
(2021) 1 1
Plötz, P.
et al.
(2023) 1 1
Rajaeifa
r, M. A.
et al.
(2022) 3 1 1 1
Reinhar
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Appendix
Electric Vehicle Circular Economy: Creating a Framework

to Aid Firms Within the EV Industry
CONSENT FORM
I………………………………………agree to participate in Mary O’Brien, Colin Guimond, Kevin Codd,

and Nivedhan Senthil Kumar’s research project.
The purpose and nature of the study has been explained to me in writing.
I am participating voluntarily.
I give permission for my interview with Mary O’Brien, Colin Guimond, Kevin Codd, or Nivedhan Senthil
Kumar to be audio-recorded.
I understand that I can withdraw from the study, without repercussions, within two weeks, whether before
it starts or while I am participating.
I understand that I can withdraw permission to use the data within two weeks of the interview, in which
case the material will be deleted.
I understand that anonymity will be ensured in the write-up by disguising my identity.
I understand that disguised extracts from my interview may be quoted in the thesis and any subsequent
publications if I give permission below:
(Please tick one box:)

I agree to quotation/publication of extracts from my interview
94
I do not agree to quotation/publication of extracts from my interview
Signed:……………………………………. Date: ………………..

PRINT NAME: …………………………………….
Interview Questions
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interviewees will be asked questions based on their particular area of expertise, being chosen
from the sets of questions below. For example, an interview with an expert in sustainability
and policy will receive questions from these two buckets. Or if an interviewee knows about
managing EV fleets and second use batteries, these questions will be applied from those
buckets, etc. As the interviews are only semi-structured, allowing for flexibility and
adaptability in the interview will be necessary. Roughly 10 – 12 questions will be asked of
each participant.
Transition/Electric Vehicle situation appraisal:
1. Are there any unforeseen challenges faced by your firm when implementing the shift from
Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to Electric Vehicles?
2. How successful has the transition from Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) to EVs been
within your industry at large?
3. What level of competition does your company face by way of sustainable practices and
Green House Gases with meeting regulations? Are other firms outpacing the current
efforts?
4. To what extent does the brand image and consumer awareness of sustainability practices
factor into the decision to become more sustainable?
5. Are there instances where the transition to Electric Vehicles slowed innovation or stunted
industry growth?
6. What are the technical debts that your company has identified in the transition to a non-
fossil fuel economy?
7. When assessing which alternatives to internal combustion vehicles would be best suited to
meet specific needs, which characteristics of these technologies are discussed? Hydrogen
fuel cell vs battery?
8. What do you consider to be the components of a successful roadmap towards this goal?
9. What problem areas have you identified in the transition to Electric Vehicles in your
industry?
10. How much weight is placed on the transition towards non-fossil fuels in your industry?
11. Who do you consider to be the most important player in expediting this transition? Does
this change happen at a government or industry level and why?
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12. When you hear ‘Electric Vehicle ecosystem’, what do you consider to be the important
components of this?
13. Can you think of failed attempts to promote Electric Vehicles in your industry? If so, what
do you believe caused these initiatives to fail?
Business models:
1. Have Electric Vehicles and alternative energy solutions been an aid in capturing value in
your industry, or a hindrance?
2. In what direction would you foresee the Battery vs Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vs
Hydrogen Fuel Cell (HFC) vs Alternative Fuels evolving?
3. What difficulties do you anticipate for the public and corporations during the transition
from fossil fuels?
4. How could either the supply chain or dealer networks be enhanced in relation to Electric
Vehicle’s
5. Are there benefits to Electric Vehicles sole dealerships as opposed to incorporating Electric
Vehicle’s with general motor dealerships?
6. To what extent might skill set deficits hamper rollout of Electric Vehicle’s through repair
capacity, technical advice, second life etc.
7. Would a public private partnership model have merit in relation to end of life disposals for
batteries and Electric Vehicle’s and the integration of unused battery capacities to the grid?
8. How do you view the importance of public-private partnerships in developing and
expanding the Electric Vehicle charging infrastructure?
9. How do you perceive the potential impact of international collaborations and partnerships
in advancing renewable energy technologies and Electric Vehicle adoption?
10. Can you share any innovative or creative ideas you have for leveraging technology or
digital solutions to enhance the effectiveness of the electric vehicles and drive sustainability
in the electric vehicle ecosystem?
11. In your opinion, what are the key challenges and opportunities in developing a framework
that promotes sustainable practices in the Electric Vehicle ecosystem?
12. How important are business models in an organisation’s sustainability strategy?
Sustainability:
1. Are Electric Vehicles, specifically Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs), a sustainable solution
for transportation?
2. Are there alternatives to Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs) which are well-positioned to
make for more sustainable transportation?
3. Is the circular economy of Electric Vehicles an area which is actively discussed?
96
4. What key elements or components would you include in a framework to generate value in
the circular economy pertaining to the electric vehicle ecosystem?
5. What practices are in place to assess the organisation’s sustainability goals?
Managed Fleets:
1. How has the success been gauged regarding the transition to Electric Vehicle fleets?
2. What challenges have you faced regarding fleet management?
3. Where do you see the area of fleet management going in relation to the increase in EV
adoption?
4. Are there alternatives to Battery Electric Vehicle (BEVs) being explored within the
industry?
5. What value has the transition to Electric Vehicle fleets provided?
6. What knowledge would have been valuable for you to know prior to transitioning from
fossil fuels?
7. Were there any tools used to aid in your transition?
8. How do fleets navigate current charging infrastructure limitations?
9. Have Electric Vehicle fleets created challenges that were not present prior to transitioning?
Circular economy:
1. What future trends or advancements do you anticipate in business models, second-life

batteries, and battery leasing and swapping that could further enhance the circular economy
within the Electric Vehicle industry?
2. How do you measure and assess the environmental and economic impact of your circular
economy initiatives within the Electric Vehicle market?
3. How do you ensure the proper disposal and recycling of batteries that have reached the end
of their useful life?
4. What measures or incentives do you think would encourage consumers to actively
participate in circular economy initiatives, such as battery recycling or leasing programs?
6. What barriers or challenges do you anticipate in scaling up renewable energy sources to
meet the growing demand for charging Electric Vehicles, and how can these challenges be
addressed?
7. Where do you see value in viewing the transition towards non-fossil fuels through the lens
of a circular economy?
8. How could a circular economy facilitate the uptake of secondary use in batteries?
9. Can you provide examples of the circular economy facilitating the value in your industry?
Battery leasing/swapping:
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1. What measures do you think should be taken to enhance the charging infrastructure
network and ensure convenient access to charging stations for Electric Vehicle owners?
2. Do you think battery leasing/ swapping would be beneficial in combatting a lack of
charging infrastructure?
3. What are the main factors driving the adoption of battery leasing programs in the Electric
Vehicle market, and how do they contribute to a circular economy?
4. In your opinion, what are the key advantages and disadvantages of battery leasing programs
for Electric Vehicle owners, manufacturers, and other stakeholders?
5. How do you ensure the proper management and maintenance of batteries in a leasing
program to maximize their lifespan and minimize waste?
6. What innovative approaches or technologies are being explored for battery swapping in
Electric Vehicles, and how do they support the principles of a circular economy?
7. What are the main logistical and operational challenges associated with implementing a
widespread battery swapping infrastructure?
8. How does your industry navigate the fluctuating costs of batteries?
9. What steps do you think could be taken to restrict these changes?
10. Which do you consider to be of more economic value; battery leasing or investing in long-
term batteries?
11. Has your organization considered leasing batteries as part of their company car scheme? If
so, what opportunities and risks were identified?
12. What are the key partnerships that could emerge based on the battery as a service model?
2nd life batteries and potential uses:
1. How do you perceive the potential of second-life batteries in extending the lifecycle of
Electric Vehicles and promoting a circular economy?
2. What specific applications or industries do you think could benefit from the use of second-
life batteries, and why?
3. How do you address concerns regarding the reliability and performance of second-life
batteries compared to new ones?
4. Are there any regulatory or policy barriers that hinder the widespread utilization of second-
life batteries? If so, how could they be overcome?
5. What strategies or partnerships have you considered to facilitate the collection and
repurposing of used Electric Vehicle batteries?
Strategies:
98
1. Where do you see Ireland ten years from now in terms of the success or otherwise of
transition to non-fossil fuel, particularly in comparison to other countries?
2. How would you assess the current state of infrastructure development, such as charging
stations and grid capacity, to support widespread Electric Vehicle adoption? Are there any
gaps or areas that need improvement?
3. What role do you think research and development initiatives play in driving technological
advancements and innovation within the Electric Vehicles and renewable energy sectors?
4. What strategies or measures do you think should be implemented to promote the circular
economy in the Electric Vehicle ecosystem?
Key Performance Indicators:
1. What metrics or indicators would you use to measure the success and effectiveness of the
framework in promoting sustainable practices and generating value in the circular economy
for the electric vehicle ecosystem?
2. How would you approach the identification and assessment of potential sustainable
practices in the Electric Vehicle industry?
3. Can you provide examples of specific initiatives or strategies that could be implemented
within the framework to promote sustainability in the electric vehicle ecosystem?
4. How would you address potential challenges or barriers to implementing sustainable
practices in the electric vehicle ecosystem?
5. Can you outline the key performance indicators (KPIs) that you would consider important
for evaluating the performance and success of electric vehicles?
6. How would you measure and analyze these KPIs to assess the efficiency, reliability, and
overall effectiveness of an electric vehicle?
Policy:
1. What role do you see governments and policymakers playing in promoting the adoption
of circular economy practices within the Electric Vehicle market?
2. How effective have current policies been in the further adoption of Electric Vehicles?
3. Where do you see policy in the area of end-of-life batteries going in the future?
4. How do you address concerns related to the standardization of battery formats and
compatibility in a battery swapping system?
5. How would you engage relevant stakeholders, such as Electric Vehicle manufacturers,
policymakers, and consumers, in implementing the framework?
6. Are there policy changes required at State level to accelerate battery leasing/swapping?
99
Pictured from left to right: Colin, Nivedhan, Mary, and Kevin
Team Members
Kevin Codd: Kevin is from Ballyhea, Cork. His background is predominantly in music, having
studied undergraduate degree in Popular Music and a Masters in Commercial Composition. Kevin
decided to pursue a Masters in ISBP so that he could learn about business through the lens of
technology and data.
Colin Guimond: Colin is from Michigan, nestled in the middle of The Great Lakes. He earned a
bachelors and masters degree in music performance from Eastern Michigan University and
Michigan State University, respectively. He is eager to learn and transition into a career in the
business and technology world.
100
Nivedhan Senthil Kumar: Nivedhan is an Analytics Practitioner who loves solving business
problems from the data perspective. He has worked as a Data Analyst and has done projects in
Machine Learning in Sustainability. He has taken ISBP to improve his business acumen and
complement his technical skills in analytics.
Mary O’Brien: Mary is from Blackrock Cork, she has a background in applied psychology and
social studies from the Cork College of Commerce and graduated in Criminology from UCC where
she completed an individual thesis. She is a current member of UCC Squash Club and is interested
in research, regulation and enhancing her business and technology skills.
Meetings
Date Location Topic Result
Read proposals and create WhatsApp group to

18/1/23 In person First meeting communicate
24/1/23 In person Discuss proposals Talked about the future direction of the proposal
Meet with industry Get to know them and get their perspective on the
1/2/23 MS Teams mentors ask from EY
3/2/23 In person Talk project Get drinks and get to know each other
Hang at Kev's and discuss the EY project from last

10/2/23 In person Talk project year, etc.
Talk paper themes and

17/2/23 In person RQs We discussed options for our research and RQs
19/2/23 MS Teams Clean up proposal Clean up the proposal and organize papers
20/2/23 In person Work on proposal Talk inclusion/exclusion criteria for papers
21/2/23 In person CCM and RQs Finish the CCM and decide on RQs
Discuss proposal Assess the comments and make changes

24/2/23 In person feedback accordingly
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26/2/23 MS Teams Decide on RO and RQs Make a formal decision on these items
3/3/23 In person Create a strategy How will we undertake the RO and RQs
8/3/23 In person Decide on strategy Mixed methods and generate a framework
22/3/23 In person Concrete RO and RQs After further reading, finally getting to a solution
26/3/23 In person Ppt Work on Ppt
28/3/23 In person Ppt Work on Ppt
29/3/23 In person Ppt Practice presenting Ppt
Finalise Proposal and clean all the stuff up for

31/3/23 MS Teams Proposal submission
4/4/23 MS Teams Proposal Clean up the proposal and get ready to submit
Ethics and Work Organizing our thoughts and getting ready for
15/5/23 In person Prepping semester 3
16/5/23 In person Ethics Form Start filling out the ethics form
17/5/23 In person Ethics Form Continue work on ethics form
18/5/23 In person Ethics Form Continue work on ethics form
18/5/23 MS Teams EY group call Talk about semester 3, get tips and tricks, etc.
18/5/23 MS Teams Meet with Dr. Rowan Talk project direction and ethics form a bit
Amend the RO and RQ to reflect new direction,

21/5/23 MS Teams Devise new RO and RQ per Wendy's advice
Formulate interview Qs, decide on methodology,

23/5/23 In person RQ problem and Ethics work to finish ethics
Send in the ethics form; took extra time to ensure

30/5/23 In person Submit ethics form it was correct per Wendy's advice
Discuss writing the lit review to accommodate

2/6/23 MS Teams Meet with Wendy now RO and RQs
102
While at the zoo, got our ethics form returned, did
8/6/23 In person Went to Fota zoo not pass
9/6/23 MS Teams Ethics Form Make changes to ethics form, as requested
12/6/23 MS Teams Ethics Form Returned and accepted
Discuss interview strategy and how to decide on

21/6/23 MS Teams Start Interviews questions for each candidate
27/6/23 In person Discuss next steps Finished lit, moving on to write further sections
3/7/23 MS Teams Meet with Wendy Get going on coding and methodology
Start Coding and Getting the coding and methodology in good

5/7/23 In person Methodology shape
10/7/23 MS Teams Coding Discuss and collaborate on coding
Talk about progress thus far, intended outputs,

18/7/23 MS Teams Meet with EY team their experience with presentation day
Start working on the Ppt and bringing the thesis to

21/7/23 MS Teams Discuss final Ppt light
22/7/23 MS Teams Work on output Start the creation of our roadmap/framework
Start to clean up the Ppt and make if ready for

23/7/23 In person Work on final Ppt prime time
24/7/23 In person Present Ppt Presented to Bill and Richard to get feedback
Meet with team at EY to get another run-through

25/7/23 MS Teams Present Ppt of Ppt and Dr. Treacy as well
26/7/23 In person Final Presentation Presented to ISBP class and mentors
Work on the findings, discussion,

28/7/23 MS Teams Final Thesis submission recommendations - clean up
1/8/23 MS Teams Final Thesis submission Continue to refine thesis
2/8/23 MS Teams Final Thesis submission Work on content that goes in appendix, etc.
4/8/23 MS Teams Final Thesis submission Last looks, clean it up and send it off
103
Search terms from methodology
Battery second use business models
Battery second use policy
Circular economy
Circular economy barriers
Circular economy batteries
Circular economy business models
Circular economy challenges
104
Circular economy electric vehicles
Circular economy framework
Circular economy policy
Circular economy second life batteries
Circular economy strategy
Circular business model
Circular business model barriers
Circular business model challenges
Circular business model electric vehicles
Circular business model framework
Circular business model policy
Circular business model strategy
Electric vehicle barriers
Electric vehicle batteries
Electric vehicle business models
Electric vehicle challenges
Electric vehicle framework
Electric vehicle policy
Electric vehicle second life batteries
Electric vehicle strategy
Electric vehicle business model innovation
Electric Vehicle battery leasing
Electric vehicle battery swapping
Sustainable Development Goals Electric Vehicles
Interview Transcripts:
I1
Transcript
June 24, 2023, 6:04AM
105
Mary Kathleen O Brien (Umail) 0:03
Errors as well, so we're just taking the transcript.
Colin Steven Guimond (Umail) started transcription

So yeah, and we have, we have transcription up as well.
Colin Steven Guimond (Umail) 0:07

Right.
Should be going perfect.

Yes.

Yep, absolutely.
Can you see it there on your end?
I have it on my end, so I think we're.

I I can't see them.
My end this time around, but I'm can you see it? Never.
Nivedhan Senthil Kumar (Umail) 0:26

Yeah, I could not see it on my end as well.
But if you can see it, I think we are good.
106
Yep, I'm looking.

Yeah.
OK, perfect.

I'm looking right at it.

OK.
Yeah.

OK. Yeah.

So yeah.
Many would you want to say something or can I get started with the questions?

Enter.
Yeah.
No.
We can get started.
I think we covered all the thing, but thank you so much as well.
107
Ohh yeah.

Marlos for for yeah, coming today and answering the questions.
I1 0:54
Yeah, that's fine.
That's fine.

Yeah.
So I will start with my first question, which is what practices are in place to assess the
organization's sustainability goals.
I1 1:07
Uh, so see?
It depends on which kind of organization it is, whether it's a, you know, like 100 years or
200 years old organization, which is, you know, building the ICE engines for D kids or if
it's like a, you know, a quite new organization.
So because The thing is like the new organizations can be, you know, easily
transformed because the infrastructure, everything would be, you know, quite easy for
them to do that.
So but when you think about, you know, the old organizations, it has been, you know,
worked on decades in ICE’s and the manpower like, say, hundreds and thousands of
people who works there, everyone will be of, you know, the mechanical background or
the automotive background, which doesn't deals with, you know, electrical and
electronics.
Right.
So it takes much time for, you know, bigger organizations, you know, to train their
108
existing employees also to bring in some new employees and build up the
infrastructure.
And that's the reason why it takes much time for, you know, bigger companies to bring
in a product, whereas Tesla kind of companies can write away, you know, bring the
product because they start with electrification.
They don't go for ID's and again transform it into.
You know, they will have some existing designs or models which they have worked on
ICES.
So now they will try to, you know, the management would have thought like, OK, pull
out the engine, put in the motor and, you know, wherever the rest spaces are, you just
put your batteries and that will become electric vehicle.
But that's not true actually.
So you have to do lot and lot of you know work in that there are thermal management,
many more things you have to you know consider.
So of course the in terms of organization, first they have to, you know, develop the
skills what it is required for making an electrification nearly possible.
So they have to train their existing employees because they cannot blindly pull out their
employees.
Because who has been worked in the automotive field for few years, right?
So they will also know how it works, so they need that experience as well.
So they have to train their existing employees at the same time they have to pull in
some on your engineers or new researchers who works on this EV system to understand
how easily or how effectively they can make the system work done.
So it's a very big task and I'm looking into some organizations who are, you know,
actively doing this.
So they are doing their ICE, you know ICE cars or ICE2 Wheelers on a regular basis, but
still they allocate a separate team of, you know, youngsters and new people pulling in
from various organizations or various, you know, institutes and they're trying to develop
this, you know, electric vehicles parallelly.
So there existing ID is also it's running very well as well as they are. You know into
development of you know the electrified vehicles as well. You you can name any of the
109
Indian companies or I would recommend I mean, I would say some global companies
like you can take a Royal Enfield, who are you know working in electric motorbikes for
almost up to my knowledge. They work, they start working from 2018 or 2019 but it
they are not launched the bike because they want a much more effective bike and you
know the The technology growth in the you know lithium batteries and you know other
much chemical new you know chemistries, which is coming up like sodium zinc. All
those things. It makes the bigger organizations to take conclusive decisions very, very
difficult because you know you certain one meeting you decide like OK, let's go with
lithium ion with a certain you know dimensions, all those things, then suddenly, Tesla
you know the the banks with the new new saying that we are coming up with 4630 cells.
Then again, the management makes a new meeting and again, you have to rework on
the 40 sales and you have to you know analyze the market trends and it's very hectic of
course in terms of the motor train things like the the motor part. That's that's quite you
know saturated like you can understand you know what motor will be going for the next
5 years or at least a decade button. You know the batteries. That's that's very difficult for
a bigger organization to take a conclusive dividend. I mean decision. So yes, that's the
thing. And, yes, the organization 's as I said earlier, the step.
As I said earlier, the step one will be developing their existing employees with the EV
knowledge because they are the, you know, trustworthy employees who you are trained
for a number of years. So you should not leave them alone and at the same time you
have to pull in you know new employees who have worked in this field or any
researchers also.
And also there is other scope like you can tie up yourself with some, you know leading
universities who are, you know working on this electrification because they put the 24
hours into that systems, right, the the PhD professors and you know this college
students who are actively working on it.
So they would have, you know, obtained something new, which an organization with
their knowledge, they can, you know, upgrade it and exactly, you know, get into the
market.
So that is also the other thing then lies the infrastructure, because that deals with the
lost lots and lots of you know fundings and you know you you might have not you you
110
cannot you know stop your ICE productions actually still 2025 or 2030 whatever you
know The thing is like so you should have a separate you know sector for these kind of
EV's as well.
So again, it brings in a lot of, you know, funds and much more things.
So that will be on the later, but first you have to make sure your team is ready to get it
done.
Then it comes with the infrastructure.
Of course, the markets are already opened up, so when when organized or you know
will recognized companies pull in their EV, then already they have a market in the global
sector.
So it's very easy for them to sell their, you know, E Audi or Porsche or whatever it is
because they already have a market over here.
So only thing is the efficient vehicle should come out.
That's the thing.
What?
You know, the bigger organizations are facing a difficulties nowadays.

Yeah.
Thank.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
So I will go for my second question, which is is a circular economy of electric vehicles
and area which is actively discussed.
I1 7:21
Yeah.
So in this I have a doubt like circular economy means what?

Yeah.
111
I1 7:31
What you're, you know, considering whether the circular economy within an
organization like, say, supply chain market production R&D, is this or the circular
economy means, you know, the organization, the customers, the, you know, public
sector, the infrastructure on the domains, what it means there are two kinds of circular
economy.
So I just, you know, added out on this.

Yeah.
So we were talking more mostly concerned about the secondary use of batteries,
because the batteries that we use now are not, you know, maybe if it for secondary use.
I1 8:02
Umm.

So maybe the circular economy with the raw materials or the ingredients that goes into
an EV is the kind of circular economy that we were mostly concerned with.
But if we can maybe talk about other aspects of circular economy as well, even that
should be OK with this, yeah.
I1 8:20
OK, so first firstly I'll answer your questioned them.

Yeah.
I1 8:25
Uh, so the circular economy for the batteries.
112
OK, right.
So in this way you have to you know you can't blindly put circle economy.
I mean the second usage of batteries, because different chemistries are dealing there,
so you have to look into how to use it and there are multiple, you know, multiple ways
how you get your scrap batteries.
There are few batteries which are, you know, completely dead or drained up or, you
know to add any physical damages.
So you cannot obviously reuse it, so you have to completely tear it down and you have
to separate the, you know, 10 to 20 chemicals which is within it, like Lithia, lithium,
manganese, cobalt, zinc, aluminium, etcetera, etcetera, right?
So that is one of the biggest process in lead acid industry.
You don't find such difficulties, but in lithium, yes you do.
Find the difficulty and the infrastructure and the investment part.
It's it's quite huge.
Meant for, you know, getting this tier down thing and all.
I could see some of the Indian companies have just started off, you know, these kind of
recycling plants in a very bigger scale.
Of course, there are few plans in China, South Korea because they they were using
lithium for almost a decade now, so they used to get a lot of scrap as well.
But for Indian market, they are actively using for the last five years.
I could say in active way, so just right now you know the Indian Government is also
thinking about it.
So, right, so there is a, you know, two ways of, you know, getting this secondary life
done.
One is like completely tearing it down and you know, splitting of the, you know,
chemicals and grading it, like on what quality it is.
And again recently give it to the battery manufacture and sell manufacturers who can
reuse it for making a new cell.
That is one way.
In this way, if you consider the costing part is way too high because the infrastructure,
everything you know adds up to it, but it may be cheaper compared to getting a new
113
lithium, you know chemical or new manganese from the mines.
But still it is, you know costlier compared to the other way of recycling.
So the other way of reading recycling, it's better you know, let's consider any European
order, you know, American market, where the lithium cells are, you know, said to be
replaced once it's 80% of capacity.
Once it reaches to its 80% of capacity, right, so the the cells would be, you know damn
good because they generally let's take any car like they will have proper cooling system
and everything would be you know properly sealed everything is there so there there
won't be any you know mechanical you know issues with the battery so only thing is the
capacity of the battery has been degraded to 80% so they are just replacing only for
that call so here what people are doing is they're trying to you know have some
balancing mechanisms for the cells and all and they're trying to sell it as a reusable cells
for the energy storage system not for the automotive grade.
So let's assume you have a cell which is like, you know 5/8.
OK, so once you use 80% of its capacity means like the cell is capable of giving only
four age now.
OK, so now you're done with that cell for the automotive grade.
So you're just replacing it.
So what happens is people are trying to bring down this sales and they're trying to
balance it, trying to check the health of the cells and all those things.
And they are selling these cells as a 48 cell, not as a 501.
So they are trying to sell the cells AS48 cell for the US market where it could again run
for you know say like roughly 2, two years or three years down the line and it will be
very cheaper in cost as well.
So compared to buying a brand new cell and also the recycler also is not working much
on that is just trying to you know balance the sales and just checking the mechanical
deformation is there or not, that's it.
So his job is also so easy.
So the infrastructure and manpower, what is required for that is minimum.
So you know that way of getting cells is better, easier and very cost effective as well.
But here The thing is like when you do in that way when you talk about energy storage
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system, we generally use, you know, LFP cells mostly lithium, Ferro phosphate or LTO
cells.
OK, because this LFP cells can run up to five years or 10 years down the line without any
harm.
You can go up to 10 years, even up to 20 years, right?
So considering all those factors, then it's companies decision to consider like whether I
have to buy a very low cost tendency or LFP secondary sales and put it in the market for
which will run only for 2-3 years or I have to buy a brand new LFP or LTO cells which can
run from five years to 20 years.
So that's the call that a company needs to take.
So what?
No, for the actions they will not take risk on using NMC cells at any point of time, so
they will go with the new brand.
New LFR LTO cells for like many smaller applications where you know this, umm uh.
See like the crimping machines, the welding working with my battery packs have been
used as a backup energy in those case, maybe this secondary cells can be right away put
into it.

Yeah.
That.
Thank you.
So I will go for my third question, which is what barriers or challenges do you anticipate
in scaling up renewable energy sources to meet the growing demand for charging
electric vehicles and how can these challenges be addressed?
I1 13:53
Yeah.
Oops, there are.
There are a lots and lots of challenges, so see the challenge is depends on, you know
and which country you're talking about.
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So it's dogmatically it's, it's like very difficult.
Say let's.
Let's assume like Ireland, which is very small in terms of, you know, land coverage.
So how many wind turbines, or how many solar plants that you can put in your country
to get the renewable energy?
So that's that's quite difficult and let's assume, right, uh let let's think.
Let's take our electric car, which is like 20 kWh.
Roughly what we are talking about, the battery package of 20 to 30 kWh.
OK, let's assume suddenly Ireland is getting thousand of electric cars for his whole his
department, or something else like that.
So just assume when all the thousand cars are put into charging at the same time at
different locations with fast charging feature in it.
So within one hour it has to charge 20 to 30 kWh, right?
So just assume 1000 into 30, so it's 30,000 kilowatt, 30,000 units of energy is what you
need within that one hour, which will be almost equivalent to one of your cities, our
demand, right?
So that that's quite difficult for any country, even if you take India, that's exponential
thing.
What I said for you know, Island or island, so that that's exponential thing.
What you have to think for, you know India.
So that's that's really difficult and I'm a bit worried like how the you know, countries are
taking up this thing because I I'm not finding like I I don't know much about the
European countries, but I'm a bit worried about some of the Asian countries who are not
considering it into serious note.
So The thing is very simple.
You even you guys might have seen a lot of, you know, images saying that, you know,
getting power from, you know, coal industry or you know, something like that and
charging an EV doesn't makes it, you know, cleaner energy.
Any of your burning coal man, so that's not the, you know, cleaner energy.
What you're going to get?
So only way when you say it's zero emission, it's a clean energy.
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The energy.
What you get is to be from a renewable energy, either it be when.
You know ocean or damn or whatever it is, or solar, whatever it is.
So it should be of, you know, from the renewables source, see the company, the
countries like, you know, Netherland, who you who has you know a lot of wind energies.
So we have to, you know, make a very calculative thing, like considering what is the
actual use of my country's power demand last year and what is there in this year,
because European countries have already started using EV's in the past two to three
years in the car sector.
Car sector mostly I could say so. The the you know the countries and the power
demand power sectors. They should be very keen on looking into this power demands
like how how big it is the impact there.
You know, supply chain supply chain in sense of supplying the electric power because
everything is, you know, converting into electric and electronics starting from anything
what you say you before it was like normal dose.
Now we go with automatic dose, so it also needs some, you know electric power for it.
So everything, everything what you work on is going to be electric.
The more gadgets you get everything.
So it's not only about TV, it's also about the complete ecosystem.
What we are pulling, we have been moved into before the sign boards was in no
normal post kind of thing.
Now it's on LED.
Even that needs a huge power for your shops, right?
So it's a complete ecosystem.
So I I feel like every country will face its own challenges because of the, you know,
availability of land, what you have and availability of funds, what you have to allocate for
the renewable energy, so that that's quite difficult.
See you.
You can give some subsidies.
I I think some of the European countries are giving subsidies for, you know, installing so
solar panels in their homes or something like that.
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So those kind of subsidies would promote every individual house owners to, you know,
install, you know, this kind of solar panels or something to meet certain demand, at
least.
So which will, you know, delay your challenge actually.
Meantime, if you find something really wow or wonderful, meantime, you can just pull it
into it and solve the issues.

Yeah.
I1 18:26
So there are a lot of challenges in you know in getting into this, even you can't blindly
put, you know nuclear plants also because putting many nuclear plants also will create a
any issue just in Croatia and Ukraine.
So if any are kind of thing happens and if you burst a nuclear plant, your complete
country is gone there.
So there are there are number of challenges.

Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And so that brings me to the 4th question, which is how would you engage relevant
stakeholders such as electric vehicle manufacturers, policymakers and consumers in
implementing sustainable practices?
I1 19:03
Yeah.
So this this thing actually it should be a government initiative, right?
So you you cannot make a, you know, the Honda and Toyota to sit in the same room,
right?
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So it should be government who has to pull in all the major stakeholders.
The government has to pull in all the OEM.
Today, the government has to pull in all the power sector people who works on electric
board the government authorities.
They have to pull in all of them here, so they have to understand like they have to ask
Tesla, like, how many charging stations you're planning to install in USA?
How many charging stations are planning to install in European countries and what our
demand it would need?
So based on that, they have to, you know it.
It's also about the, you know, getting a Transformers replays, getting your grid much
more effective.
For that there there are number of things which has to be done.
It cannot be done by a a group of representatives are non NGO non organizational.
You know, organizations or something like that.
So it should be from the government.
But then only you can find everyone on the seats, or else few companies will be there.
Few companies won't be there.
So and also the other stakeholders say there are few separate charging you know
charge of manufacturers who make only charges.
So you have to.
There are like very big companies like you can take a B Delta.
There are.
There are very big, you know, emotions were making, you know, charging stations.
So you have to understand that you you now now what you know, right?
Every petrol bunk will have its own starting station from Shell.
So now the petrol bunk demand has been increased much more bigger than before.
So either you should have a separate transformer for that, or you can pull in from the
same grid power what they're getting before.
So it's a very big thing which which individual organization cannot do it.
So it has to be from the government, which has to pull in all the important stakeholders
and to understand in a very better way what it can be done for the betterment of the
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market.
Because, see at the end, even the OEM will be preferring you shared certain amount of
details because they also don't want to launch their vehicles and without any charging
stations it will be very difficult for them to sell their vehicles as well, right.
So having understood all the challenges, what every OEM has, they will definitely be
happy to share the challenges, at least not their design parts and not their R&D works.

Yeah.
I1 21:33
What they've done, but definitely they would be addressing their challenges with the
particular countries and that challenges through some ideas and you know to the
government said that to understand what has to be done in the near future.
So that's a very big thing and I don't think so.
Ohh, things are happening in not developing countries, but I believe that should
happen in at least in developed countries.
In the at least now, if it has not happened before, at least now it should happen at least.

Thank you so much.
So the next question is, how do you perceive the potential impact of collaboration in
advancing circular practices related to sustainability?
I1 22:19
So so here again, the circular practice comes with the secondary batteries.
What you're talking about?
Is it right? OK.
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Yeah, you.
That is one perspective to it.
Maybe you have other perspectives you have.
We are very happy to hear your thoughts on that, yeah.
I1 22:35
Yeah.
Can you?
Can you just repeat the question again?

Ohh yeah. Yeah, sure.
I1 22:38
I have to understand it, but first.

So how do you perceive the potential impact of collaboration in advancing circular
practices related to sustainability?
I1 22:48
Yeah.
OK, so see, I would tell India as an example for this, OK.
The number of two Wheeler OEM in ICM, where less than 20 OK till 2020 or till 2021.
But when the EV market started and everyone you know with the help of YouTube, they
thought like they can build their own vehicles so.
The number of OEM's who makes EVs is more than 400, right?
So it's it's it's way big compared to the ICT.
So what happens is the market is getting splitted up but 400 peoples rather than the
20.
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So the 20 people are like big OEM.
So they're taking their own time to develop their product.
So generally for a big OEM to develop their product and launch it to the market will
take three to five years because they are they stringent plans, testing, validation,
everything.
But for a new company, it takes less than a year because they sit start.
They don't do much of testings, but they'll try to at least, you know, pass the
certification standards.
What has to be done and within a year, they launch their vehicles, they'll get the
fundings done and they will close the company after three to five years.
So this is what it's happening with these startups.
So what?
Gradually I'm able to see is among the 400 companies I couldn't see certain companies
name which I was seeing in 2020 or 2021 now.
So there are there are no traces of those companies and I could also see some new
companies coming up, which is, you know, focused on technology based not just on,
you know buying products from China or somewhere, just assembling it and selling it.
OK, so there are new companies which are coming up with technology based and the
old companies which they thought like it's very easy to make, they found the difficulties
of it and they just lift it and also some established companies in startup skill like say you
guys might have heard about 8:00 and.

Yeah.
I1 left the meeting
I1 joined the meeting
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Yeah.
I think there is a a Manoj, are you there?
Sorry, sorry, we are not able to hear you.
I1 25:44
I'm am I audible now?

Oh yeah. You're audible now.
Yeah, yeah.
I1 25:47
Yeah.
Sorry, sorry.
There was a power cut issue, of course.

Oh no, it isn't.
I1 25:51
It happens here in India.
OK.
So, like we were talking about, uh, the OK, fine date is an.

State that we are talking about data.
I1 25:59
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Ohh yeah, so there are like few companies like either and Ola.
OK, So what happens here is the big OEM's are trying to invest on these companies and
taking the share market.
OK, so whatever vehicle is sold by either it's also.

Uh, sorry.
I1 26:19
Hello.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I1 26:20
Oh yeah, for sure.

Sorry, we lost you in the middle.
I1 26:22
So yeah, fine.

Yeah, yeah.
I1 26:23
Yes.
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So whatever vehicles you know, either selling, there is certain you know benefit which is
going to the Hero MotoCorp as well, right?
So the hero, you know, funded on that and whatever vehicle will be sold by Ultraviolet,
the racing bike, it will have its, you know profit going to the TV groups as well who is
one of the giant in two Wheelers.
So that's how the big OEMs are taking a call.
So they're doing it in two ways.
One thing is they're developing their own vehicle, which will be sustainable, which will
be much more efficient and you know which will be, you know, utilized for the global
market and at the same time, they don't want to, you know, sit ideal.
So they just invest on the potential startups, OK.
And there, you know, taking revenue apart from the revenue, there is one more major
thing.
What they're getting is the knowledge.
What this startups have?
OK, the field study, so you know, either launch the first vehicle which was not running
good, then they started, they launched the second vehicle immediately, which was
running really good.
Now all the you know, eight vehicles, it is getting really good in the market, right.
So they know what happened to either 350, but as even as a you know, engineer or as a
person in the EV field, I may not know what actually, you know cost 8 to 350 as a failure
model, right.
But TV is groups knows that, so they will use to, you know, have all these studies and
they will build their vehicle in a much efficient way with all this knowledge and
understanding, you cannot set up a team to make a vehicle, put it on market, try it out
and get all the, you know, pros and cons of the vehicle.
You cannot do that as a big OEM, but the way simple how you can do is you can invest
on a startup, you know.
See what they're doing?
Get all the pros and cons of those vehicles and just take the pros out of it and put it in
your vehicle and make sure that cons are not, you know, going to affect your vehicles as
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well.
So that's the way how the ecosystem it's going on.
And I I also, you know, I think that after a few years when the companies like TV S when
they, you know, launched their all vehicles maybe in EV or you know 50% of their
vehicles in EV at that time they might even you know combine this ultraviolet with them
like that.
So even ultraviolet may not be, you know, a separate company or brand it.
It may happen.
I'm not sure, but because TV is also would not like to have you know, their own sports
bike in the market and ultraviolet sports, bike in the market, they don't want they
themselves to be competitor for that right.

Yeah.
I1 29:01
So this this might happen.
This is my forecasting thing.
This might happen, but as of now this is how it is.
The the big gains in ICE IC vehicles, they're just investing.
You take you name any of the Indian big giant there.
They have already invested in some of their India now EV startups.
That's for damn sure.
Any any giant you take Bajaj CCTV S anyone?
So they've already invested, directly or indirectly in any of the, you know, EV startups.
So they know what what it takes to make you know, build a EV which is reliable and
sustainable.
So with that, they will pull in this because many companies, they still believe even for
the two Wheeler, they need a better charging system where they can charge their
vehicle within half an hour or one hour, right?
So even, you know, a big country like India, they still couldn't have sufficient EV
126
charging stations for their cars.
So first they they will try to, you know, make it done for the cast.
Then it goes to the Pikes.
Right.
So with this scenario, definitely even the OEM's, if they have their bikes ready or
something, they will just try to postpone it until the infrastructure is ready for them.

Yeah.
Thank you.
And the next question is what?
What elements or components would you include in a framework to generate value in
the circular economy pertaining to the electric vehicle ecosystem?
I1 30:24
Yeah.
So we were talking about the renewable energy, right?
So that is one of the main thing what I would be recommend to you know.

Yeah.
I1 30:31
Yeah.
Incorporate in this infrastructure.
So the way how we build your vehicle, even it's from that the way how we build your
vehicle, the power, what you get for building your vehicles, the power, what you get for
you know building your battery packs and testing your battery packs, see you're going
to test all your battery packs, right?
So a battery companies manufacturing thousand batteries a month means they're
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going to test 1000 batteries a month.
So they're going to charge and discharge their batteries.
So whatever amount they are discharging it, it has to be stored as a backup, and
whenever they're trying to charge it, they should utilize that power.
Although the efficiency will be 100%, but at least they're gaining some amount of
energy through it, right?
So these kind of you know, ecosystem has to be built up where you know most of the I
I cannot say like 100% it should be renewable right now.
It is nowhere you know possible also with the ecosystem what we have in developing
countries.
So they should strive for 100%, but whatever big they have closer to 100% is really
good.
So these kind of you know, getting the energy from the, you know, natural sources or
renewable sources will be much more beneficial and also the supply chain point of view.
Alright, so how how you supply chain infrastructure is going to be.
So how locally you're going to build your supply chain so that also matters a lot.
See for example if if you want any of the product and you're getting it from India.
So I'm building it from here and I'm sending it to Ireland and you find any difficulties or
something you have to again send it back here or through video calls or something.
We are trying to, you know, rectify it right so that that takes a lot of time in R&D as well,
to be honest.
Did you guys?
So that takes a pretty much a time and that also your local resources in terms of you
know engineers what you have.
So you should also build them right for the for what is going to be the future.
So if you try it as a government, I'm I'm trying to say if you try to, you know, what if if
your government, you know, starts a battery manufacturing plant, who thought it right,
it will be very good, right?

Umm.
128
I1 32:44
So see, the government owns many renewable energy sources.
So what if, if the government starts its own battery plan and makes battery as a backup
source for its renewable energy?
So there is a lot of employment which is coming in and government also will know.
Like what it really takes for the infra because now government is just a listener.
Yeah, just hearing from the, you know, OEM, they're just hearing from the electricity,
both people about the demands, all those things are just listeners.
You're not making any such in.
You know, initiatives to come into the market and it's it's it's a good earning system also
for the government and it it also you know pulls in a lot of local employees, right, the
meaning people used to get job out of it and you know at the local the knowledge what
it will be transformed within your country or so and so will be very much useful actually
let let's say you you're buying your products from China or something.
If they wanted to, you know, and if if your country and you know China or India is
having any issues politically, then they wantedly they will stop your supply chain or
they'll raise the price for you.
How you will meet your customers?
Because last month you told your vehicle like €4000.
Now if it's going to be €1500 then definitely they will not buy from you.
But if it's from your government, you will have a, you know, a fixed prices and you can
get it quite easily.
Why can't the government do that infrastructure for you?
Because assuming that this is going to be the future and government also needs
backup energies for their renewables and lots and lots of things, you take all the
government, you know, offices or wherever it is they have a, you know, genset kind of
thing for a backup power or inverters for the backup powers. Right.
So let let everything be government stuff for government offices.
Let let them create a local infrastructure.
Let them create, you know, some employment directly from the, you know, government
point of view rather than, you know, I requesting the OEMs to invest on their country,
129
providing them land and subsidies and they will take certain employees and they make
close the company or something else, right.
So government also should consider these kind of initiatives, if possible.
That would be really good for the, you know, local people at least.

Thank you.
Uh, and the next question is what difficulties do you anticipate?
I1 35:07
Sorry, sorry Nivedhan.

Ohh yeah.
I1 35:08
I actually forgot to tell one more thing.

Oh yeah.
I1 35:10
It's about how how efficiently you're going to scrap your lithium batteries.

Yeah, sorry.
You.
I1 35:15
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That is, that is one of the major part when you talk about the circular economy, because
that is going to be the last part of your, you know, circular economy.
And that is very significant already.
You know, many of the developed countries are dumping their electronic E waste in,
you know, developing or underdeveloped countries, right?
So that will not, even though that is creating harm that will not create much harm to
your soil and to your people surrounded there.
But these kind of lithium waste, if it is not properly handled or something, it may create
harmless to your soil.
It may create a harness to the people who is, you know, he kneeling the tire.
So there are a lot of, you know, uh, issues revolving around that.
So scrapping of lithium batteries is also a very big concern.
OK, how the developed country is going to handle it?

You.
I1 36:07
They will simply try to, you know, send it to China or Taiwan or something like that.
But what if if they are unable to send it to there?
Whether they have a local system where they can scrap their batteries, whether they
can take power from that, I mean whether they can, you know, build a new battery from
that or whether they can build new sales from that.
So these kind of things is also much more important.
Like as I said earlier, like anything can happen politically, right?
So suddenly, if they have any issues with China and China stops this he roots to to your
country, then how you'll scrap your battery.
You have to check for other countries.
They may have asked for, you know, extra pay or something, so this is also one of the
very important thing.
So your what I would reckon is every country should be self sustainable.
131
Starting from your raw materials or components, what OEM wants to get starting from
that and the end of cycle will be scrapping of this products.
So that's how it should be.
See you can you can get the knowledge or you can get the consulting activities or even
you can get the software from other countries.
That doesn't matter because that's anytime reprogrammable.
That is not going to be harm.
Create any harmonious for you, but the raw products, what you're going to get you
tried to get get it locally or somewhere near to you.

Yeah.
Check.
Thank you so much.
I1 37:32
Yeah.

So what difficulties do you anticipate for the public and corporations during the
transition from fossil fuels?
I1 37:41
Yeah, there are number of difficulties, man.
Say like how educated the people are in using EV, right?
We might have seen lot of fire incidents happening and the OEMs are claiming that the
end user have used it wrongly.
They charge the battery when it is wet or they over charge the battery.
You know, even they're overcharged.
The battery like like lot lots and lots and things of things are happening over here.
132
They don't know which charger to use for which battery, meaning because there are
multiple chemistries like lithium ion lithium Ferro phosphate.
Then user may not be aware of that.
They know it's a 60 Volt battery.
Even that is very big for them to understand.
They have a 60 Volt, 38 battery for the two Wheeler, so they just go to any shop.
They may task for a charger, or they might order in Amazon or something.
A 60 Volt tenams or something charger, but they don't know whether it's enums, URL,
EFP.
If you wrongly plugged in a charger, it may overcharge and it may burst.
That has happened a lot in India, right?
So first thing is it's not like I just start your vehicle run when the petrol is low, filled it up.
Just go.
It's not like that, and if you have any issues, give it to a service person.
Right.
There is no maintenance to be taken care by the individual.
Alright, but here the individual has to, you know, take some maintenance activities or to
do some regular checks of their vehicles.
So every individual has to be trained to use their EV server in a proper way.
So this cannot be done on a larger scale, so this how it has to be done is the OEM has
to make some, you know SOP kind of things.
OK, state safe operation procedures kind of things and other measures and other
details which has to be shared to the end customer, right?
So they have to make those kind of, you know, details gathered together and it has to
be easily delivered say like in an animated video kind of thing where even any illiterate
also can understand that it should be in that way and that has to be transferred to the
distributors and dealers of their vehicles because they have to understand it first, even
because they were also dealing with engines and diesels, all those things.
So they have to understand that.
So uh, so you have to train them as well.
133
Then the dealers and distributors will take care of the customers who are going to buy
directly from them because OEM cannot, you know, educate everyone, right?

Me. Yeah.
I1 40:11
And every vehicle comes with its own operations.
So a Toyota cannot have blindly say something which will not set for, you know, Honda
or Tesla.
And so every dealer and distributor should be very well aware of what kind of vehicles
they are going to sell and the same information as to be carried out passed out to the
local.

Umm.
I1 40:31
You know, customers who are buying their and a video kind of thing or a regular
animated videos like when it's in a rainy season, right.
What kind of dos and don'ts you have to do?
OEM has to share that because it the the people asked to understand this.
So this will take 10 to 20 years, maybe the next generation, maybe our kids would be,
you know, finding no difficulty in using EV because they write away, see EV right.
They won't see ICM.
Uh, so there right away.
See EV.
They know how to do it, but we are very much confused in using IC's and this one
right?
So I I would say an example here.
134
So there is a logic in EV where if you.
Yeah, I mean, audible now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I1 41:21
Yeah.
So sorry, I just got a call.
That's it.
OK, so like when you press your break, there is a brake sensor.

Ohh.
I1 41:29
OK, So what will happen is the brake sensor will not allow your you know motor to run
even if you catch the break lightly.
But what happens is in India, most of the people who drive their vehicles, icy vehicles,
they always used to have a few fingers on their break where the break will always be
pressed a little bit.
OK, So what I think they can understand this much better than median color.
So what happens is many people they found difficulty in running the vehicle.
So what I'll what will happen is they will, you know, accelerate the vehicle and
unconsciously they will have some of their fingers like middle finger and index finger on
their break system.
So the break will be slightly pressed and the week will stop abruptly.
So that created a lot of shares in the beginning of every industry like everyone was
complaining.
I was driving my vehicle.
Suddenly it stopped.
135
That's why I don't want to buy VC's are not good.
They they were just climbing.
Whatever they wanted to do, they say motor is not good, battery is not good, blah blah
blah.
Then, when we understood what has really happened, they followed the same
procedure.
What they have done it in the ICEs here.
OK.
It's it's like in your gene, man.
So you cannot change it, so someone has to come and train you.
They have to tell you that, like, see, you cannot press your break because there is a
sensor here.
When you're normally, which there is no such sensors, it's just oils and brake drums.
So you press it, it will stop.
But here it sensor based even there is a slight signal communication is cancelled then it
will abruptly stop your motor and battery power.
So we were in a position to train them actually.
So this is how, like a lot of you know, field implementations will happen.
Uh, so it it every OEM and responsibility to make sure the end customers are
understanding how to use their own vehicles, at least not generalized way, at least their
own vehicles.
So that's the thing.
See if they're.
If they're like saying like 10 fault which can be displayed in their cluster or display
system, the individual customers should understand if certain fault comes, how you
know hazard it is or how hard it is to come out of the vehicle or something like that.
There might be certain faults which is not so harmful, like you can still drive your vehicle
for some extent.
There are some fault like say you get a thermal runaway fault.
The customer thinks, oh, that's fine.
We'll just stop a vehicle and, you know, petrol bunk.
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Then it's done, right?
So you should understand, I mean the in customer should understand what fault will
lead to what consequences and OEM should be very transparent in that, right.

Sure.
I1 44:06
So they might use some, you know, strategical way of exposing it, which OEM are very
well aware of rather than saying it's face to face.
But still that has to be shared across.

Yeah.
Thank you so much.
So the next question is, has the secondary use of electric vehicle batteries been an area
which has been of interest in your work on energy transition?
I1 44:30
Yeah, of course.
We we discussed a few things regarding this early as well.
Yes, of course it has to be done it.
It will be done.
It should be done any any formats I I say it is needed because you cannot blindly scrap
your battery even it it has something which is you know beneficial in it right?

Umm.
I1 44:49
137
The same way how we are getting issues for the cold, for energy production the same
way you will get issues in getting the lithium from mining industries, right?
Think like a country.
A small country like Ireland, if they want some lithium sources like 110 or 210, they may
not get in the future because the bigger countries like US, Australia, China who have
won their minings, they will get much more benefit out of it.
Maybe countries like India, US, they can also try to use their political influence and they
can get those kind of raw materials from the mining sectors.
But just think the small countries, how they can get these kind of you know, if they're
setting up a plant, how they will get this kind of from materials because it's a very big
market already, you know like many battery manufacturers, they were advised to stop
using cobalt because there are lot of no unethical things happening in cobalt mining.
You know, a lot of people are dying.
A lot of lot of issues are happening which is not known to the real world which is
happening in African countries right, knowingly or unknowingly, whenever we are
buying a battery, we are consuming some cobalt where someone is being you know,
you know threatened in a much worse away than a slave.
It still happening now even today when you are talking, right.
So we should understand how effectively we we can utilize our scrap, right?

OK.
I1 46:17
So as I said earlier, we already have two ways of using a scrap materials and what is the
better way that we can utilize it.
We can definitely utilize it.
See if the system is.
If you want it as a raw material only, then you build up, you know, recycling plant,
whatever the battery is, whether it is, you know, physically damaged or physically not
damaged.
138
When whether it is used for some testing purpose and they're trying to scrap it,
whatever the condition is, don't think about anything.
Just put it on the scrap.
Let it you know, do tear down.
Let the chemicals come out separately and you give it for your cell manufacturer.
Let them create new cells.
Let it be recycled.

Yeah.
So yeah, perfect.
I1 46:56
That will be much better way.

So in the research that we were doing, we were also talking about battery leasing as
one of the possible options.
So we would love, yeah, we would love to hear your thoughts on battery leasing, if uh,
if that is OK but you.
I1 47:06
Umm, sure.
Really.
Really.
Actually, I was driving hard for that in in my previous organization, I took up that
project.
I worked on it.
The there are a lot of practical difficulties in doing battery leasing in countries like India,
right?
139
Maybe you guys might find little difficulty in doing it and I'll end or any other European
countries, but there are a lot of difficulties of doing such in India specifically where I
can't tell detail about that.
But there are there are any number of difficulties, right?
But when it comes to battery leasing it, it adds to advantage that the end customer
never needs to buy a new battery, right?
It just does that monthly subscription or yearly subscription and this vehicle is I like and
there is no such compulsion for him to replace a battery after five years which is going
to cost 50 or 70% of his vehicle cost, they won't be any heart attacks to the customer.
So they just need to do that subscriptions and they can run their vehicle easily.
And there's one more advantage to the end customer where your cost of the vehicle
will be 30 to 40% lesser than what you buy, right?
Just just assume you're you're you're going to buy your car without paying for your
battery.

Yeah.
I1 48:26
How your car price would be just assume it will be cheaper than your eyes.
I would bet on it.
So everyone would be interested to buy their cars, right?
And you can just make a matrix, or you can just make a calculation saying that per
month you're going to travel this much with your IC vehicle.
This is your, you know, petroleum or gasoline.
Pay what?
You're going to pay, and this is what you're going to pay for your battery for a whole
month, right?
So in this this I'm looking into completely into end customer point of view.
So end customer has N number of advantages in this.
Alright, so that is one better thing.
140
Yeah, yeah.
I1 49:02
What you can definitely look into on the same way now you come into the leasing
partner who is going to be that leasing partner.
Is he going to be a battery manufacturer or is he going to be OEM?
So how that system is going to work?
That's where the tricky part comes into it.

Yeah.
I1 49:21
And how the system is going to be charged?
I mean how the battery is going to be charged, whether the end customer can can
charge it with this, you know, onboard charges which he and plug in in this House or he
has to charge in particular charging stations if he's going to charge in Partick charging
station again he has to pay for that then you cannot completely claim that this is
equivalent to your petrol or diesel kind of thing then you have to consider those you
know charging station payments as well so which might be little bit higher than you
know regular usage of IPC things but still you get your vehicle at cheaper cost than that.
So the ROI will match it up or else you have to make it done with your excel.
Works, so that can be done.
So you have to consider in this way like for any customer, it's always going to be
beneficial because he's going to pay the upfront cost lower and he just has to do
monthly subscription.

Yeah.
141
I1 50:14
There's no, you know, replacement of batteries until uses the same vehicle.
So even if any service issues or anything happens, he's not holding the battery right.
So you just going to give that battery to your next month?

Yeah.
I1 50:26
He will take a brand new battery.
We can.
We'll which he can use in his vehicles.
So there are a lot of advantages on customers point of view.
So now we have to consider two ways.
One is like whether this leasing is going to come from a battery manufacturer or from
an OEM.
So the leasing, if it is, comes from the battery manufacturer, then it should be really,
you know much funded.
Just think if he's going to least 10,000 batteries or 20,000 batteries in the market, which
he has to put in that much amount of money.

Yeah.
I1 50:58
Right.
And also the service stations how he will manage that many service stations?
The same batteries can be used any part of Globe, right?
Or at least any part of your country, right.
So yes, to have service stations and all the cities where the end customer if is facing any
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difficulty in the battery has to go there and get it done.
So here the problem happens is like the battery manufacturer cannot practically afford
to do that.
So you definitely need to OEM who can support that because the OEM will already have
their own, you know, service points or you know they're showrooms are kind of thing
where they can set up a small extra arrangement where this battery system can can be,
you know leased or can be serviced kind of thing.
So there is lot of math calculation which you have to do for this leasing project because
since it's you know benefit to the customers, definitely OEMs will not do it.
It should be beneficial for the OEM's and battery manufacturers as well, so here I can
there is a call like the OEM has to decide whether they are going to buy the battery from
the battery manufacturer and they are going to lease it, but they will get the late later
benefits or there will be any tie up with the no OEM under battery manufacturer where
both will be getting certain benefits and you know the the plus the pros and cons will be
shared to both like if any service happens the battery manufacturer could should take
care of it did it will you know there is strategically there is there is a lot of things which
you have to decide between the.

Yeah.
I1 52:30
OEM and the battery manufacturer in terms of strategy point of view in terms of
funding point of view because this days with a lot of funding to be honest.
So of course, on customers point of view and as an end user even, I would reckon if
there is something like called as least batteries, I would buy that only rather than buying
a battery which is fixed or something like that.

Yeah.
143
I1 52:52
And again, when it goes to swappable batteries, that is also one more option.
You know where you can work on it?
Swappable batteries?
It's quite again the for customers benefit is not going to you know a pay much upfront
cost because he's just going to swap the batteries for every charge and you no need to
wait for charging really.
You just need to use your telematics or something RFID's or something you have to
plug in and you have to get your battery out.
You have to put it in it and you you just needs to go.
So for customer point of view, it doesn't need to wait for charging, he can go anywhere.
Let's assume your customer needs to go like, say, 1000 kilometers.
If he's having charging stations across every 50 kilometer, that's more sufficient for him.
He can, you know, just wrap it everywhere and he can go without any harness, and
swapping generally takes like roughly one to two minutes or maximum 3 minutes of
time, which is almost equivalent to your, you know, refueling time.
So that's a better thing.
Even in there again, there is a strategy point of view which has to be worked between
the OEM and the battery manufacturing.
How they're going to handle the cost?
How are they going to manage it?
So the strategy point of view is what the problem see many OEM have thought for
swapping stations before.
Even I worked in one such company like where swapping station is one of the major
project for them they they make swapping stations, they make batteries so that that's
the only product.
So I worked in such a company, so I understood how difficult it is for, you know, a
battery manufacturer with swapping station to, you know, to get the approval of an
OEM because OEM they have their certain you know benefits for them if you sell your
vehicle, they have to get like 2040% benefit.
That's it.
144
After that, whatever service is happening, they will take care of it.
That's a single time.
So the account sheet will be quite easier for them to maintain, but assume this
swapping station and all like every day like 500,000 people swap it.

Yeah.
I1 54:56
You will have certain monies coming in again.
You have to split it with your.
You know battery supplier or swapping station provider.
There are a lot of things happening in it and The Who is going to pay the rent for this
wrapping station?
I was going to pay the rent for the electric bill.
What you're going to get for this wrapping station if if any harmless happens, who is
going to, you know, be responsible for that?
So strategically, there are a lot of difficulties in framing up, you know, the leasing and I
mean rental or leasing and swapping stations.

Yeah.
I1 55:29
But of course it's adds up to a lot of benefits for the end customer.
The only thing is there should be a middle point where the OEM and the battery
manufacturer should meet up where many of them are failing to meet it up.
That's the thing.
145
Yeah, sure.
Thank you so much.
So which brings us to our final question, which is from your industry experience, where
do you see island or Europe as a whole 10 years from now in terms of the success or
otherwise of transition to non fossil fuel, particularly in comparison to other countries?
I1 56:02
Yeah.
See. Umm.
I I couldn't say specifically with respect to Ireland, but I could say as a whole of
European countries, which I was little bit aware of, to be honest, so the, the, the, the
European countries are like a much superior in terms of absorbing the technologies than
the developing countries, because when a new technology comes in, definitely the the
cost of it will be higher since it's new, the production scalability, everything will be low
and it it it needs, you know, on the initial stages, it definitely needs quite higher cost
than the, you know, your conventional things, whatever the product is I'm talking about.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I1 56:42
Let's take even your smartphones.
Initially, the very basic smartphones are like 5010 thousand, like something like that.
And now even the superior smartphones are somewhat similar to that price, right?
So whenever a new technology comes into that, there will be initially cost benefits.
What you get on peoples also be like not 100% what you will get after five years or 10
years because the technology will be grown up in the next 5 to 10 years, right?
But still the developed countries, they are ready to absorb these kind of things.
And also I I believe that European countries, they wanted to make net zero emissions by
2030 in some of the countries, right.
146
So to make it net zero, definitely they have to stop their IC, right?
So they're already into it, so they already need a complete EV to be into their
ecosystem, even for the agricultural products, agricultural tractors, whatever it is, not
only the on road vehicles, I'm talking even about the off road vehicles.
AG's all those things which consumes diesel, they want it to be into electric, which you
know brings in lot of new markets for for you know, the companies who are developing
the vehicles and this kind of, you know, offroad vehicles as well.
So definitely the European market is in a superior way of consuming this electric
vehicles and all those things.
But the question where it rises is where they are in making this products.
OK, so if you want to make a battery pack, you get your BMS from China, which is a
major component.
You get your sales from China or Taiwan, but few people are getting from Germany.
There's a company called the classes so few people might get from there, but most of
them are getting from, you know, China and Taiwan based companies only.
And the BMS, which is the most critical part of your battery, you're getting it from China
because the PCB and other raw component manufacturers are in China.
So most of the things you're getting it from China, Taiwan or something, sometimes
you also get few things in India as well.
I'm not sure about that as of now, but in the near future, definitely you might get sales
from India as well because there are very big giants who are stepping up into, you know,
cell manufacturing in India.
So many European countries would be very much happier to get sales from India rather
from China because of the trust and the quality.
What Indians would provide than Chinese one?
So and also Indian speak better English than Chinese.
That is our one more thing I could say.
So these are the factors you know, which is it, you know, worried for me, worried in
since like, I'm not sure how, you know, European people they are planning like how how
they will build a vehicle.
So they what kind of ecosystem they have to build their vehicles, the plastic moldings,
147
whether they're doing it in house or they they're going to, you know, import it from
somewhere due to the government loss and other things, how they are going to
manage it up.
Alright, so those things are a bit concerned for me, but in terms of you know
consuming it they they are much in a better way to you know consume the EV electric
buses, you know electric cars, all those things I I could see the market share of IC versus
EV EV's are gaining their percentages in European countries a lot compared to you know
other many countries.

Yeah.
I1 1:00:01
So in terms of consumable, yes, they're already there.
They are on the superior part.
The thing is like how they're going to manufacture it, right?
That's where you know the complete circle comes into act.
So you The thing is like, you buy everything from, you know, China or India, then what
your engineers will do then.
Nivedhan Senthil Kumar (Umail) 1:00:22

Yeah.
I1 1:00:22
So I that's what it happens, so I'm able to see a lot of small, small companies who
develop their bikes, motorcycles, electric cycles, lot, lot of products.
I'm able to see but I'm not able to, you know, find it in a bigger market scale where it is
very easy for, you know, a person or a company like Ola to establish a company in a year
and you know, get the design from a European based company and you know selling
20-30 thousand vehicles per month.
148
You.
I1 1:00:49
Alright, so for in here, you know Ola is capable of selling, you know 400,000 vehicles or
500,000 vehicles.
But I couldn't, you know, find the same numbers from a European based from a
European manufacturer kind of thing, but in cars I could see there are few European
countries where the cars are being made, but that too they, they have their own plant.
I mean, they will have one or two plants in Europe and the rest of the plans will be lying
in, you know, Asian countries because of the government policies, what they have, what
if the Asian countries also, you know, brings in such stronger government plans.
See you can achieve your net zero just by, you know, ruling out your IC production in
your European countries and you can get it produced in India or sign off.
But what if if India and China also brings in the same policy?
How will then what you will do, whether you will stop your production or you will go to
your or you will you go to the undeveloped countries again.
Start making infrastructure.
What you guys will do it so as a company as a whole heartedly you should make
wherever you do your production.
Either it's in India or China or in your native European countries.
You have to make it 100% renewable if possible, so that's the thing.

Yeah.
I1 1:02:04
What you can do I I hear that message.
Is Bens have their R&D center in Bangalore in India?
So I heard that they have established the solar panels through which they're able to
149
achieve almost 8090% of energy for that complete operation of the R&D center.
So they add their vision, right?
So they don't want to make it renewable only in their country.
They want to make it renewable across the globe, wherever their footprints are, so the
country it itself should implement.
Uh, you know such a a strict laws to the OEM's and it the OEM should make sure that it
is not applicable only for the European nation.
It should be applicable for wherever they have their footprints, so that will make a really
sustainable world. Actually.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I1 1:02:50
How does it will be sustainable to European?

So yeah, so that is all the end of questions.
Thank you so much, Anna.
Thank you so much for your time.
Yeah, really happy that you would allocate time and and a lot of things that you talked
about where areas that you know me, Mary and there's another teammate who's
missing called Kevin.
I1 1:03:03
Umm.

You know the battery management, battery leasing and all these areas where of
150
constant discussion and glad that you could bring everything in the perspective and
explain it with your experience, which is really nice.
Thank you so much.
Colin, maybe you want to like calling or Mary would like to maybe add something.
Mary Kathleen O Brien (Umail) 1:03:29

Uh, yeah.
Thanks.
Yeah.
No, thank you so much.
That was really helpful for project and we really appreciate it.
So thank you.
Manoj 1:03:38
Yeah.
Thank you
Colin Steven Guimond (Umail) 1:03:39

Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Really appreciate your time.
Last bits of housekeeping is just anytime you can send that consent form over signed
and dated.
That's the last bit that we need from you.
Then we're all set, man.
I1 1:03:49
Sure.

Really appreciate it.
151
I1 1:03:51
Yeah.
I I will get that form done on like maybe on Monday because I have a setting scheduled
plans for today actually.

Sure
Colin Steven Guimond (Umail) stopped transcription
I2
Interview - UCC Research Project-20230625_170138-

Meeting Recording
June 25, 2023, 4:01PM
29m 55s

So what you can we get started with the questions.
I2 0:11
Make it stop.

Have you hello.
I2 0:13
Yeah, yeah, true.
152
So I'll start with the first question, which is do you think battery leasing and or swap
swapping would be beneficial in the industry?
I2 0:24
Ah yeah, according to me, I think that releasing and swapping would go is gonna be a
huge market in the industry and to the environment as well.
Considering that battery is one of the most crucial part of the EV, and that is the most
cost effective thing.
So reducing a large amount of money in battery?
Uh by giving options like battery leasing or battery swapping is going to bring the
capital loss capital cost to a very low amount that is going to help many people shift
towards EV.
And you know, like the easy transition can be real for some reason?

Yeah.
So yeah.
So we'll get on to the next.
Uh, which is what are the main factors driving the adoption of battery leasing programs
in the electric vehicle market and how do they contribute to a circular economy?
I2 1:19
Yeah.
So Battery leasing is one of the interesting markets that's coming up and it is a it was
not a market that was existing before I end this recently coming up.
So what I see is a major factor for these markets coming up is one of the reasons is the
capital cost.
As I mentioned before, so major cost of the EV mainly depends on its battery and you
want a better battery.
You have to pay more and that's how it works.
But then when you shift towards battery leasing, you cutting off a large amount of
153
money when your car, so it gives you more you know gives you more option to buy and
so that's why leasing has become one of the most populous thing and also one more
thing is as I said there are more fleet fleet owners that are moving towards Patrick costs
because of the low capital cost.
So this is one of the reasons I see the EV transition is going to a big level because of
because major amount of people are shifting towards no EV in that sense.

OK.
Yeah.
So I get stuck.
I will give you the third question, which is in your opinion, what are the key advantages
and disadvantages of battery leasing programs for electric vehicle owners,
manufacturers and other stakeholders?
I2 2:35
OK, so as as a.
Someone who's going to drive an EV for me, it is going to give me less cost and I have
a lot of options to upgrade my batteries as the as the technology advances.
That is two things that I would see as someone who's a consumer.
So say the battery life span is set to be around 12 years, so I cannot be using the same
battery if there's a battery upgrade, I have an option to just go to the latest battery, get
go for a higher power battery, so that is one thing that I would see as a consumer of in
uh from the manufacturer side, this constant development and they don't have the
pressure to like build just one type of battery.
They're open to a lot of different to just check how the consumers, what do they prefer,
and there's a lot of things that don't have to be a constant state.
They have a manufacturing line and they don't have to stick to the same line to ohh so
they have a lot of varieties and options to go for us.
The market demands that is one thing I see in the manufacturer side and in the
stakeholder side, along with Battery Leasing.
154
Easy is not just one big industry.
It is like it is giving rise to small industries like battery leasing as well.
So it is a subset of the big one, right?
So so there are a lot of other things coming up.
So that I see that are good points to invest money in like battery recycling or battery
leasing by a battery swapping technologies.
All this is a part of the whole big eco electric vehicle ecosystem.

OK.
Umm sorry my. Yeah.
So how do you enjoy the proper management and maintenance of batteries in a
leasing program to maximize their lifespan and minimize waste?
I2 4:31
OK, so this can be a more from the consumer side as well as from the PR people who
managing the battery systems.
So from our personal views, we can take from the supplier side, they can make sure that
the battery is being charged to its full efficiency like say 20 to 80% of the battery
charging times.
So going below 20% or going above 80% can reduce the battery life span to certain
extents and from our side we can make sure that we don't drive it both extreme
temperatures.
Uh, so that we don't disturb the battery life span as well.
And then making sure we are the batteries being recharged, recharged properly and it's
being cooled down before proper use.
So taking small measures in battery maintenance can provide an improved
performance and battery and long like give it more longer time lifespan.
So such things can help in giving the battery a longer life span by taking small
measures and the fleet owner should also make sure that the battery is being swapped
in the right place and this it is being put in the right spot and like small errors that can
155
occur by not like not placing it properly or making it giving chance for a faster
discharge.
Not making sure it doesn't get into deep discharge.
Such things can help.
Uh, improving the battery life span I feel.

Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And what are the main logistical and operational challenges associated with
implementing a widespread battery swapping and prosper?
I2 6:09
So back to swapping is something is also coming up along with Battery Leasing.
It's a market that's also been developing.
So one thing I see in terms of logistical issues is that if you're setting up a battery
swapping station somewhere, say in a highway, it is very difficult to transport a battery a
large number of batteries to such locations.
It is not accessible to all the other places and getting into remote places is going to be
an issue and also getting a supply for the battery charging.
Say the grid connection from in remote places is gonna be a very potential threat or I
would say a barrier in getting the supply to the batteries and charging them setting up
the station.
It is going to impact a lot of things, so once you go to setup things you will need one
after the other.
You will need good roads there.
You will need to set up a small.
Substation or a grid there.
And then you'll have to move the transport the batteries there, and then you have to
like it is a lot of investment and I don't know if all the places is being equipped with such
things to develop stations more frequently because so you will need stations and a
156
more frequent way like how we see gas station every year and there.
So once you are going for a totally carbon neutral society, you would need gas stations
more frequently and such things I see would be a potential a problem or barrier there.

Yeah.
That.
Thank you for that.
And uh, I'll go to the next question, which is how do you perceive the potential of
second life batteries in extending the life cycle of electric vehicles and promoting a
circular economy?
I2 7:55
Yeah.
So a circular economy is very, very important in the current trend that the world is
moving toward carbon neutrality.
And I see it is very important to be recycling EV batteries, especially coming from the
fact that lithium is a very rare source of an element and it is very difficult to get the evil
lithium batteries on the cars there.
So it is very important that we try our best to maximize its like span.
The capability of the battery, so as I said, the battery an average Eva battery ranges for
about 10 to 12 years and giving it a second like say recycling it is gonna give it an
additional say 5 to 30 years of its life span.
So it gives more time on the road and we as people who use the cars are gonna look at
the cars that is going to give us a longer, you know, a longer time to run it.
So most of us calculate the buying a car or that is one of the major considerations that
we as people do right.
So like how long is the car going to run?
How long is it going to be more efficient so that is something that we always think as
people who are going to use the car, so battery when you have an option like most
people stay back because they think ohh is going to run just for 12 years and why
157
should I invest so much of money into it?
So when you have an option to like increase the battery size and reuse it, the reuse the
battery that is really going to move towards like bring in more people to buy EVs and
also it is also good for the environment that you don't have to recycle more batteries,
you will not have to process the batteries more often and it is also like you're saving a
lot of lithium also in it.

Yeah.
I29:41
So it is both for the environment, for us, for the industry, for everything on the whole.

Yeah.
So, uh, which gets me to my next question, which is how do you ensure the proper
disposal of batteries that has reached the third third of its useful life?
The title of this useful if maybe.
I2 10:01
So I see a battery recycling is one of the biggest issues that is going on so far, like we
do not have the best capabilities of battery recycling or infrastructure to that is being set
up for battery recycling as of now that there are a few, but I don't see it as a very big
industry and that's being happening more often.
Yeah.
So battery recycling is very important.
As I said, it is very rare to get lithium and it is a major of the lithium imports comes
from China.
So there's a lot of political and economical issues as well that is being addressed in
here.
158
So it is a battery second when it reaches its third life, it's almost gone and it's it's not
capable of use.
So there are few centers that help in extracting the most useful elements, like say they
mostly extract from the cathode of the battery like lithium or cobalt.
That is quite.
That can be extracted more well, but I would not say a lithium extraction is being up to
the mark.
So far, little extraction is still being an issue, so other other things that can be extracted
from the cathode is being extracted and then put it into another set of batteries and
then we can reuse recycle.
So on the whole, the battery recycling process, I would say it's not like very good, but
then it is still developing.
It is still nascent and it's still developing.

Thanks for that.
And how do you assess the current state of infrastructure development, such as
charging stations and group capacity to support widespread electric vehicle adopt?
I2 11:41
Yeah.
So I would say it is still running.
There's a long way to run.
There's a long road ahead, so I see the lot of lot of the countries have lot of
government policies.
Government has been very supportive and bringing a carbon neutral visited the US.
They have a target set until 2060.
They're going totally carbon neutral and most of the European countries have been
achieving a set of targets that they have came to go totally carbon neutral by before
2030 or twenty 40s.
So the government is also being very supportive and there are a lot of charging
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stations.
And so with the government being supportive, this lot of scope of you know, more
people coming up in terms of like more people opening up charging stations or the
whole EV ecosystem is developing so far.
But I would not say if you're fully equipped for now, we're fully done and we're ready to
go on roads.
But yeah, it is still in progress and charging infrastructure is quite improving like we
have home charges that's coming up.
You can you can charge your vehicles to the comfort in your home or this like public
charging spots is coming up.
It's portable chargers so that that are, uh, things, but it is not become more
commercialized that anyone can be able to use it.
So that would require a little more, you know, moving into the market and more people
adopting to EV with government being supported.
I see that very soon I see that happening very soon.

Thank you.
And how do you ensure the proper disposal and recycling of batteries that have
reached the end of their useful life?
I2 13:22
Yeah.
So, uh, I think it is very important to dispose the battery carefully.
You you cannot dispose it like any other thrash.
So it is very important that you do it.
So there are certain set of companies that are actually into battery recycling or process.
If you in Canada and you in the United States and the few academic institutions also
doing their research in battery recycling, as I said, it is not like very developed or any
well infrastructure setup.
Think there already.
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So it is still, they're still figuring out how they can make the most.
And given that the lithium extraction is really very expensive and the cost of setting it
up is also really expensive, most people are like setting themselves back from setting up
a big and the amount of within that you want to extract is also going to be very low with
the high amount of capital cost.
So they don't see a return of investment there.
And so that is one of the reasons why most people are not investing in that kind of.
You know business, but I see that it is important that we have a proper that are people
who are actually working on it.
Most of the cathode is being extracted already, so we just have to figure out a way
where we can, you know, get the lithium back as well so that we don't have to spend a
lot on batteries.
So I see proper disposal in the scraping stations.
We have to make sure which company scrapes well or like how how much of the
elements can be scraped back.
Well, so we have to look at all those factors and then that is gonna really help with the
battery recycling and the disposal.

Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And what barriers or challenges do you anticipate in scaling up renewable energy
sources to meet the growing demand for for charging electric vehicles?
And how can these challenges be addressed?
I2 15:17
OK, so as I said, now we're moving to a totally carbon neutral and making up.
They're charging the the existing grids in most countries are mostly from coal or, you
know, gas.
So very few countries have gone, like, totally renewable.
So it and it makes no sense that you spending more on the you know the grid, the gas
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and the coal fire stations.
So just fuel up for electric cars.
It is just going to ruin the environment even more with more cars coming up, you need
more power to charge them, so I see.
So there are a few.
As measures that are being taken already, they have sold like a solar panel charging
station in which it is partially from the gradient, partially from the solar energy.
Kind of things, but I see a problem though it comes with a few advantages that the
power is coming totally renewable and you know the well you were taking power.
So it's going 100% renewable, right.
So now the problem there would be I would see a challenge that is that it is being
difficult to integrate with the existing grid.
So that is something I see as a potential.
So you cannot.
There are so that is going to be a lot of connections to the grid if each station each
charging station is to be connected to the grid.

Umm.
I2 16:39
So there's a lot of connections to the grid, so that would be electrical problems.
There will be noises that the harmonics and that is a lot of technical thing that we have
to talk about.
So that we will not get there for now.
So the integration to the existing system would be one thing that I will see and then
other thing would be cost and maintenance.
With uh renewables coming in, I see you will need regular you cannot just leave it like
how you leave a gas station or petrol station.
You'll have two like regularly maintain and you know the cost.
The in addition to the setting up cost, that is the putting the setup in addition to it is
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already very expensive and on top of that you have to make sure that it's being
maintained and you're serviced properly at regular intervals so that it is improper 100%
working condition.
So all that is going to be a major challenge, like the more effort, more pain, the more
capital you put in, the more more of everything.
So there's a lot of effort coming from all of us.
So yeah, that would be the.

Yeah.
Thank you.
And I know your area of work has been mostly in India and American market in general.
But from your study of your previous work experience, where do you see Ireland or
Europe in general 10 years from now in terms of the success or otherwise of transition
to non fossil fuels, particularly in comparison to other countries or to the rest of the
world maybe.
I2 18:07
It respect to I'm not quite sure of the island.
You need a transaction right now, but on the whole I can just give a general picture with
what I know about the European markets.
So Europe is like is one of the very few comments that is really pushed EV or like after
China and they write it states.
So it's like it is have very achievable targets and I've seen all the most, most of almost
Switzerland is almost 100% electric already and then a lot of countries that are already
moving to 100% electric and then a lot of big car manufacturers like Porsche or like you
know, I as far Volkswagen I guess or already transferring to EV.
So they're replacing all their IC cars with the EV, so they are giving giving it to
dealerships to, like get their cars transferred to a total electric.
So I see that most of the big firms are governments, have already moved, taken the
decision to like they have made up their mind to go full electric.
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So I see that happening really very soon but and yeah, so I see the major problem
would be capital and with government funding that uh taking that initiative of funding
the the all the other things in the market, I see that would be a very big plus in people.
And when people are left with no choice, I think we will eventually move to easy, right?
So.
So I see that happening and say very less say less than 2030 years.
I think we would be in a very good state in transition to.

Yeah.
And from your experience, uh, can you provide examples of specific initiatives you are?
Strategies that could be implemented within the framework to promote sustainability in
the electric vehicle ecosystem.
Like you know, increase adoption of EV's, maybe.
Do you have?
Have you seen examples of that?
I2 20:00
OK, OK.
OK so I have worked.
A little on the Indian EV market.
Uh, so I have looked into a few of that.
So I see that the government is setting in incentives to the vehicle manufacturers.
So what helps them with that is it is like the government is putting half the money for
them in the investment.
So what happens is the cost of the vehicle eventually goes down, right?
So more people tend to buy electric vehicles and with the cost going down, there's
more demand.
And the the demand increasing that more more other businesses coming up like you
need electric vehicle, there's a charging station that a new person brings up and so
there's a lot of people coming up with such businesses.
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So the government is aiming at all these kind of people, the manufacturers, the
customers, the stakeholders, the suppliers.
So the government is providing incentives for each one of us and say the few few
things like the the government, the company is also like, you know, encouraging, like
they providing easy and most of the you see the most of the fleets that is the taxi fleets.
So everything is moving to EVV because the cost has come down and they find it more.
They find EV fleets more cost effective than the gasoline ones, so there's a big transition
from the normal.
So all this is happening because of the government incentives and all the other things
that's being happening.
So I see that as a major push for the EV transition.

Yeah.
So since you've worked the battery set of things bit more, I thought maybe I had a
question on if far electric vehicles, especially battery electric vehicles, are they, you
know, in terms of business and in terms of their sustainability as a vehicle source, do you
think that of events as a sustainable solution for transportation in the longer run?

Uh, in considering all the broader impacts that, you know it has on the markets
manufacturers and all constraints or bottlenecks that comes with it, what is the?
I2 22:18
No.
So I yeah.
Yeah.
So I for now I would say yes, electric vehicle is a good solution and bringing up a more
greener society.
But also there have been looking at all green alternatives for fuel, like they've looking
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few companies looking into hydrogen fuel as well.
So it is just a replacement for the gas there.
So you don't have to have a battery for powering up the car, but then it's just a change
in the fuel, like hydrogen fuel is still, but then the cost of setting up a hydrogen refill
Tang or that is gonna be another that is another topic to talk about.
But as far as I see with it is just about integrating systems, right?
As I spoke.
So you you find a solution to like integrate the existing system with the renewable
source, you're done.
So you have a solution already, so you don't have to like make major changes in
anything.
It is just gonna cost you a little more extra to like set up things, but then you put in a
hydrogen fuel.
It is going to cost you a whole new setup.
The cost is going to be like, say, 1020 times more than what you're going to invest in
this or maybe even more.
I'm not quite sure of the numbers here, so just throwing out random numbers so yeah.
So the cost of setting up the whole structure is gonna like the whole ecosystem is going
to cost you even more.
So transition to other sources, I see a less possibly, very less possibility compared to the
electric, since we have always already moving towards it and we already have a system
set up and we just have to make few additional changes to it to get on fully working.
So I see Eva would be a better replacement than any other source of fuel, I would say.

Thanks for that.
And which brings us to our last question, which is how would you approach the
identification and assessment of potential sustainable practices in the electric vehicle
industry?
So are there like a set of best practices that you think the manufacturers or the
governments or you know we need to like, you know, collaborate and work on to, you
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know, make it a success that there is there something that you like to touch upon in that
regard?
I2 24:14
I.
So yeah, I would say the the government is already doing pretty well in getting, getting
to the manufacturers and talking to them about bringing a more carbon neutral society.
And the manufacturer is also working like on they already transitioning to EVV they
replacing all the petrol, the diesel vehicles and all the combustion vehicles to electric
vehicles already.
So I see.
Yeah, I think that is a very good thing to touch upon.
But yeah, I see.
Very.
I don't think that anything, anything more has to be done.
I see a lot of people already doing it, so it is not going to be a change in one day, right?
So it is going to be a gradual change and I think people are already taking efforts for it
and if I would say more efforts, I would say more, more umm conscious thinking about
you know when when we plan to buy a vehicle like as everyone has to take that first
step.
So when we can try to get the first vehicle, we can be more conscious about like
spending a little extra and betting so that the the business is improve and there's more
demand for it.
So we cannot wait till the prices go down and go wait till everything goes down so that
we get to buy the price is what we're going to go down as long as the demand is going
to keep increasing.
So that is it is a.
It's, uh, social conscious thought that everyone should have on the whole and everyone
should work to, you know, bring a carbon neutral.
167
Yeah.
Sorry we since you you know, you have a lot of your expertise on the battery
management.
We thought we'll pick your brain a bit more and so we just have one question, which is
what specific applications or industries do you think would benefit from the use of
second life batteries?
Why?
Why do you think so?
I2 26:21
I second life batteries.
Yes.
So yeah, so the second life battery is not going to be a fully efficient car battery.
That is what I said.
It is not gonna run for longer time in a car so, but there can be smaller other
applications like the commercial electronics side of you know the second resale thing.
So the few industries that recycles consumer electronics and you would require
batteries for such kinds.
So all those kind of batteries are being replaced or the battery with the lesser capacity,
say even a car requires that and well, battery a smaller battery compared to the larger
400 Volt or 600 Volt battery.
So such smaller batteries can be replaced with the second cycle, the second battery,
second life kind of thing, and then the battery is like pretty new to be recycled.
You can even.
You can even recycle it as a new EV card battery as well, so the automotive side of
things, consumer electronics, the all.
Then I would say a small pop, those kind of a thing there, if you like, I I will call them
you.
Really, that vertical landing VTL.
So vertical landing and takeoff systems.
So all that is gonna use batteries that would require less capacity lithium batteries.
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So those are mostly like they are mostly used in like farms like to spray pesticides or
something.
They can also use for camera surveillance or something military.
So all that vtols or say all that consumer electronics and small review batteries or larger
review batteries, automotives, cars, so all these industries is something that is going to
use the second life factory.

Yeah.
So yeah, thank you for all your knowledge and it was a massive help.
So we are officially done with the questions now, so maybe Mary or Colin or Kev.
Maybe you guys want to maybe ask something, maybe we can go for it.
But as far from my end, I'm good with the questions.
I3
Interview Questions:
Kevin
What practices are in place to assess the organisation’s sustainability goals?
I3
EY continues to reduce its greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, and is carbon negative
for the third year, meaning we offset and remove more carbon than we emit; EY remains
on track to reach net zero in 2025. Our challenge going forward is to decouple business
growth from emissions growth, while supporting clients and maintaining our distinctive
global culture. We are investing in services, technology and products to help clients
decarbonize their businesses and accelerate the transition to a low-carbon economy.
Kevin Is the circular economy of electric vehicles an area which is actively discussed?
I3
I think sustainable practices in the production of EVs is becoming more of a topic of
discussion, particularly in light of Scope 3 emissions and an increased focus on
sustainable supply chain/value chain
169
Kevin
What barriers or challenges do you anticipate in scaling up renewable energy sources
to meet the growing demand for charging Electric Vehicles, and how can these
challenges be addressed?
I3
Increasing electricity demand will not only come from an accelerate in the uptake of
EVs, but also industrial/large energy users; for example, EirGrid has forecast that, by
2031, 28% of all electricity demand is expected to come from data centres and other
new LEUs. In meeting 80% renewables-generated electricity by 2030, key barriers will
likely include outdated planning laws – which will hinder offshore wind farm
development – coupled with the engineering challenge of operating an electricity system
with such a high proportion of non-synchronous generation. Streamlined planning laws
are needed to accelerate the development of offshore wind farms, while flexibility – as
an alternative, non-wires solution that maximises existing capacity – will play a key role
in integrating further variable renewable energy.
Kevin How would you engage relevant stakeholders, such as electric vehicle
manufactures, policymakers, and consumers, in implementing sustainable practices?
I3
To meaningfully engage stakeholders around implementing sustainable practices in the
development of EVs, the right incentives and/or legislation must be in place; the next
iteration of the Climate Action Plan could look to embed sustainable practices in
meeting existing targets.
Kevin
Has the secondary use of electric vehicle batteries been an area which has been of
interest in your work on energy transition?
I3
Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology is a form of electricity-to-electricity storage, as it
enables energy to be pushed back on to the electricity system from the battery of an
electric car. V2G is still in the early stages of development, however pilot projects are
ongoing to demonstrate the long-term benefits of V2G.
Kevin
How would you assess the current state of infrastructure development, such as
charging stations and grid capacity, to support widespread Electric Vehicle adoption?
Are there any gaps or areas that need improvement?
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I3
The transition to electric vehicles to support the decarbonisation of the transport sector
is gaining momentum. Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland (ZEVI) was established in 2022
to support consumers, the public sector, and businesses to continue to make the switch
to zero-emission vehicles, while Ireland’s national Electric Vehicles Charging
Infrastructure Strategy 2022-2025 published in January 2023 will see €100 million spent
on public charging infrastructure in Ireland over the next three years. A fair current state
assessment would be that Ireland’s charging infrastructure is not where it needs to be to
accommodate 1 million EVs by 2030; significant investment will be needed in the
coming years to install charge points nationally.
Transcript for I4
Transcript
00:00:03 Speaker 1
Interventions that would increase the sustainability of those places so worked in cities like
Austin, Dallas, LA.
00:00:17 Speaker 1
Fort McMurray, Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver.
00:00:23 Speaker 1
And a variety.
00:00:24 Speaker 1
And host of others doing sustainable development, type advisory services and then came back to
Ireland in 2020 and took on the head of sustainability role within the UI in Ireland.
00:00:35 Speaker 1
Which covers the campus.
00:00:37 Speaker 1
And also my background is infrastructure, so I did a lot of work on on that kind of public
transport EV's and the variety and sundry in between. So hopefully hopefully can be some
service here on on the research project. So.
00:00:53 Speaker 1
I'll hand it over to you.
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00:00:53 Speaker 2
And I'll do my best.
00:00:55 Speaker 2
No, that, that's amazing that.
00:00:57 Speaker 2
That's really that's really cool.
00:00:58 Speaker 2
You've been all around.
00:00:59 Speaker 2
00:00:59 Speaker 2
It's funny, I, you know, lived over there for my all my life until I was 20.
00:01:03 Speaker 2
I've been on the plane until I until I came to Ireland to live here when I was 27.
00:01:07 Speaker 2
Whenever that was 28. So yeah, the fact that you traveled all around there way more than I did.
And even though I lived there for all that time, that's that's pretty amazing.
00:01:15 Speaker 2
OK.
00:01:16 Speaker 2
So yeah, we'll jump into it.
00:01:17 Speaker 2
So the first question is kind of just.
00:01:18 Speaker 2
Broad sustainability so.
00:01:21 Speaker 2
What practices are in place to assess like E's or your organization sustainability goals?
00:01:28 Speaker 1
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What practices are in place?
00:01:30 Speaker 1
So we've established a
00:01:31 Speaker 1
Set of KPI's.
00:01:35 Speaker 1
The the kind of the three pillars, let's say, of sustainability.
00:01:42 Speaker 1
According to to various different frameworks, but look at economic, social and and then
environment.
00:01:53 Speaker 1
Annually we review.
00:01:55 Speaker 1
Our progress against those KPI's, it's externally verified and published in our transparency report,
which is if you want.
00:02:04 Speaker 1
To Google it.
00:02:04 Speaker 1
Afterwards you can go UI and transparency report that.
00:02:08 Speaker 1
Will bring you to.
00:02:09 Speaker 1
To that, we're generally setting those KPIs in line with established frameworks like the WPF
framework or the WRI framework or the GUI framework, or various and sundry in
between.
00:02:28 Speaker 1
And that's all stemming from, I think our.
00:02:32 Speaker 1
2020 step to strategy where we decided we were going to.
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00:02:36 Speaker 1
Be net 0 by 2025 and and everything else kind of came from that. In terms of goals and
ambitions in line with sustainability outcomes.
00:02:46 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:02:47 Speaker 2
And it's funny thing too.
00:02:48 Speaker 2
I was looking at some of the the data on that yesterday about how, you know, obviously the
pandemic was terrible for many reasons.
00:02:54 Speaker 2
But then you look at, you know, emissions and emissions went down obviously way for 2020. So
you see all these trajectory and everything is going up and up and up.
00:03:01 Speaker 2
And then 2020 comes way down. So I'd like to see I it it ended in 2020. I didn't see where it's
gone.
00:03:07 Speaker 2
Since then, but I'd like to see with.
00:03:08 Speaker 2
The last couple of years have gone, if we.
00:03:10 Speaker 2
Plateaued a bit, or if it's immediately shot back up and we solve this like whereas 2023 leading
us, really, yeah.
00:03:16 Speaker 1
No, no, the emissions definitely rebounded when we reopened.
00:03:20 Speaker 1
Yeah, sure.
00:03:22 Speaker 1
But they didn't bounce back to where they could have been.
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00:03:26 Speaker 1
So like our, we've established carbon budgets by service line.
00:03:30 Speaker 1
And here in Ireland and then globally, there is carbon budgets that have been given down to each
of.
00:03:36 Speaker 1
The practices so.
00:03:37 Speaker 1
Like Ireland as a carbon budget given to it by EY globally.
00:03:43 Speaker 1
And like fundamentally, the goal is to.
00:03:46 Speaker 1
Be within it or or lower you know, you know you know.
00:03:49 Speaker 1
How the concept works?
00:03:51 Speaker 1
So the carbon budgets track a pathway from 2019 to 2025, which is this kind of steady decrease.
But obviously in 2020 we we ended up dropping to almost 40% of our emission profile.
00:04:06 Speaker 1
And so the goal has actually.
00:04:07 Speaker 1
Been to suppress the.
00:04:08 Speaker 1
Bounce, you know? So in 2021, we didn't really have to suppress it.
00:04:13 Speaker 1
That much because it really wasn't fully.
00:04:14 Speaker 1
Open but in 2020.
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00:04:16 Speaker 1
Two it was.
00:04:18 Speaker 1
Like we changed our travel system, for example.
00:04:20 Speaker 1
So you need double line of approval if you want to book a business class seat.
00:04:25 Speaker 1
If you want to book a return flight on the same day of travel, you need a double.
00:04:30 Speaker 1
You need a double authorization and the idea of those things are to stop people to to, to make
people pause.
00:04:38 Speaker 1
We're booking travel and also to to test whether that carbon budget allowance will be exceeded
or not.
00:04:46 Speaker 1
So yes, it's a different.
00:04:47 Speaker 1
Challenge. We're actually trying to.
00:04:49 Speaker 1
Make sure we don't come up.
00:04:51 Speaker 1
We're coming.
00:04:52 Speaker 1
Up to our net zero target as opposed.
00:04:54 Speaker 1
To coming down to it.
00:04:56 Speaker 1
Which is kind of a strange.
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00:04:57 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's funny too. So I think I read on the website as well where it said you guys, you guys
were your goal is to be carbon neutral by 2025.
00:04:57 Speaker 1
Strange place to be.
00:05:03 Speaker 2
That's that's what it was, right?
00:05:05 Speaker 2
But you guys?
00:05:05 Speaker 2
Were already carbon.
00:05:07 Speaker 2
Negative or.
00:05:08 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:09 Speaker 2
You're so.
00:05:10 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's so funny.
00:05:11 Speaker 2
So it's just to make try to make sure to keep things.
00:05:13 Speaker 2
In place to keep it, keep it below that level.
00:05:15
Yeah, well.
00:05:16 Speaker 1
So we will achieve 2020.
00:05:19 Speaker 1
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But we will also be.
00:05:20 Speaker 1
Carbon negative.
00:05:21 Speaker 1
Yeah, zero is kind of an absolute target that we have to meet on our mission profile in order to be
considered net zero on the on the environment and think carbon negative.
00:05:33 Speaker 1
Anybody can achieve that by just pumping more money into offsets and.
00:05:37 Speaker 2
Right.
00:05:38 Speaker 2
Which is also like kept part of the problem in sustainability projects in general.
00:05:41 Speaker 2
It's like people do a bunch of bad stuff and then they'll say, oh, we'll fix this by just buying, you
know, bunch of trees to plant, like, that's that's offsets it.
00:05:49 Speaker 2
Right.
00:05:49 Speaker 2
Well, not really.
00:05:50 Speaker 2
You didn't have.
00:05:50 Speaker 2
To do the bad thing in the 1st place, yeah.
00:05:52 Speaker 1
That's why net zero was the.
00:05:54 Speaker 2
Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. OK. So I don't know how much experience you have in like
circular economy or anything, but that that was in question #2 for you here. So is the
circular economy of electric vehicles, an area which is actively discussed?
178
00:06:09
No, no.
00:06:13 Speaker 1
And and I'm mainly reacting to the actively discussed piece.
00:06:20 Speaker 1
For practitioners, so I have a lot of.
00:06:22 Speaker 1
Experience in circular economy that.
00:06:26 Speaker 1
You will find.
00:06:26 Speaker 1
Actually that some of the car makers now are starting to advertise the amount of recycled content
that is in their vehicles.
00:06:34 Speaker 1
As a starting point, and there's new one at the moment that's being advertised and it's got like 130
KG's of recycled content in the vehicle, right, but that we're really talking about upholstery
metals, things like that.
00:06:48
More often than.
00:06:49 Speaker 1
Not in calling and put words in your guys mouth.
00:06:52 Speaker 1
You're asking me about the circular economy of the battery.
00:06:56 Speaker 2
I mean, I'd say because that's, you know the whatever it is, how percentage of the value derived
in the car, that's like a huge portion.
00:07:03 Speaker 2
So it's.
00:07:03 Speaker 2
179
A. If it's. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:04 Speaker 1
It's about 50% or 50.
00:07:06 Speaker 1
Percent of the current footprint of the electric vehicles and the battery, and the other 50% is in
the.
00:07:11 Speaker 1
The rest of the car.
00:07:12
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:14 Speaker 1
So and.
00:07:16 Speaker 1
And you'll you'll see an awful lot.
00:07:18 Speaker 1
Of articles, but we.
00:07:19 Speaker 1
Don't know we're going to do these batteries.
00:07:20 Speaker 1
You know, what's their end of life?
00:07:22 Speaker 1
What's all that kind of carry?
00:07:23 Speaker 1
On, and so on.
00:07:24 Speaker 1
And so forth. And it's legitimate because early age and electric vehicles like the 2013, 2014
verse.
00:07:33 Speaker 1
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They were so few.
00:07:35 Speaker 1
That there really was no incentive to create an economy around circularizing that those batteries
right now we're in a completely different scenario now.
00:07:45 Speaker 1
So these batteries will be put into vehicles with a guaranteed performance life of 10 years, and
the secondary use cases.
00:07:56 Speaker 1
Battery are numerous, including stacking them for on site solar generation like charging the
batteries and then using.
00:08:03 Speaker 1
Them in your home.
00:08:05 Speaker 1
To a variety of other use cases that just don't need to have the performance of an electric vehicle
in terms of pulling power out of the battery, but would be quite useful as batteries in other
scenarios helping us to.
00:08:21 Speaker 1
Decarbonized even further with.
00:08:24 Speaker 1
The likes of solar and.
00:08:25 Speaker 1
Wind and and and so on and so.
00:08:26 Speaker 1
Forth. So we would.
00:08:29 Speaker 1
Firmly believe that.
00:08:32 Speaker 1
There's going to be value in those batteries at.
00:08:36 Speaker 1
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Their end of life for cars.
00:08:40 Speaker 1
When they're no longer good for propulsion but they are still good as energy stores and as use
cases...most in practice would not see a situation where we are devolving the battery
components and trying to extract lithium...it's really more about second life batteries
00:09:08 Speaker 1
Battery use use case here versus battery use case another.
00:09:12 Speaker 1
So in theory, even that is still kicking the ultimate.
00:09:17 Speaker 1
Can down the.
00:09:18 Speaker 1
Road terms of.
00:09:20 Speaker 1
Eventually it won't have uses a battery.
00:09:22 Speaker 1
And then are.
00:09:22 Speaker 1
We into the kind of challenges we have currently with battery recycling like battery recycling.
Right now, just your your AA's are.
00:09:32 Speaker 1
Could reside in Prospect, right?
00:09:34 Speaker 1
Right.
00:09:34 Speaker 1
And the industry needs to tackle that.
00:09:37 Speaker 1
Like they they really.
00:09:38 Speaker 1
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Do need to tackle just the.
00:09:40 Speaker 1
The scale I suppose that's coming along with the other side of this is there's there's need.
00:09:46 Speaker 1
Right.
00:09:47 Speaker 1
So the more we electrify.
00:09:50 Speaker 1
Then the the more costly it is to extract the raw material, so there is actually in our current
projected future now situations where lithium could become difficult to to to gain, which of
course will drive industry now that is active to lithium captive to batteries, it will drive
them into.
00:10:10 Speaker 1
The recycling, refurbishment kind of consideration in a big way so.
00:10:13 Speaker 1
Yeah, I suppose the.
00:10:14 Speaker 1
Past isn't the good.
00:10:15 Speaker 1
Blueprint for the future here.
00:10:16 Speaker 1
Because the economics are continually changing.
00:10:20 Speaker 1
And the amount of investment attention.
00:10:26 Speaker 1
Momentum in the industry it is.
00:10:29 Speaker 1
Significant to to solve this like I have seen certain recyclers now today are piloting.
00:10:36 Speaker 1
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Kind of innovative recycling processes on solar panels on batteries, on things that they never
invested in before, mainly because they can see a situation 20 years from now where it's
going to be business.
00:10:51
Yeah, it's going and.
00:10:51 Speaker 1
It's going to be big business.
00:10:53 Speaker 1
And that's very different to to what we probably.
00:10:56 Speaker 1
Would have seen in the past.
00:10:58 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:59 Speaker 2
So like that was, I had a second part of that question, which was asking about all the barriers and
challenges anticipated in the scaling up of renewable energy resources.
00:11:07 Speaker 2
But you kind of kind of covered a lot of that, all the lot of barriers and challenges, yeah.
00:11:13 Speaker 1
Like there be a tipping point in the barriers or challenges like the ultimate one is fundamentally
we're in A2 track economy at the moment.
00:11:20 Speaker 1
And we probably will be.
00:11:22 Speaker 1
For probably another 5-6, seven years where?
00:11:26 Speaker 1
The old stuff still.
00:11:29 Speaker 1
While we're doing all this new stuff.
184
00:11:31 Speaker 1
We'll still have ice vehicles.
00:11:32 Speaker 1
And electric vehicles, we're.
00:11:34 Speaker 1
Going to have.
00:11:37 Speaker 1
You know, normal fireplaces and houses and we're.
00:11:40 Speaker 1
Going to have heat pumps, you know, and there's going to be this kind of.
00:11:43 Speaker 1
Tipping point, though, where the majority becomes the up, the new thing, right?
00:11:49 Speaker 1
So can we achieve that tipping point you're going to start finding that actually it's very difficult to
get a mechanic.
00:11:56 Speaker 1
To work on your old ice vehicle, for example, you're gonna actually find that there's less petrol
pumps for your petrol.
00:12:02 Speaker 1
Car and there's.
00:12:03 Speaker 1
Going to be more EV charging facilities.
00:12:06 Speaker 1
And and and.
00:12:07 Speaker 1
A whole host of disruptors that come along with being.
00:12:11
Here in the.
185
00:12:11 Speaker 1
Economy at that tipping point where you know it's just really difficult to live the old way.
00:12:18 Speaker 1
Because we've now tripped over. But today like 2023.
00:12:22 Speaker 1
It's still very.
00:12:23 Speaker 1
Viable to live the old way as much as it is.
00:12:26 Speaker 1
To live the new way.
00:12:28 Speaker 1
But once we hit.
00:12:29 Speaker 1
That tipping point?
00:12:31 Speaker 1
An awful lot of that, that.
00:12:33 Speaker 1
I suppose the inertia, the barrier of inertia would be removed because you will have no choice.
00:12:38 Speaker 1
The next car you buy will have to be.
00:12:40 Speaker 1
Because it's just not possible.
00:12:42 Speaker 1
Or it's not as convenient anymore.
00:12:44 Speaker 1
To have the other thing, etcetera, etcetera.
00:12:46 Speaker 2
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Yeah, totally.
00:12:48 Speaker 2
That's so interesting.
00:12:50 Speaker 2
OK.
00:12:51 Speaker 2
Question 3 then how would you engage relevant stakeholders such as electric vehicle
manufacturers, policymakers and consumers in implementing sustainable practices?
00:13:09 Speaker 1
So everything has.
00:13:12 Speaker 1
Everything has a timing that's actually correct for it, and then there's a timing outside of that that
is not correct.
00:13:20 Speaker 1
It's either too early or too late.
00:13:22 Speaker 1
Or whatever it might be, so a.
00:13:24 Speaker 1
I'm a firm believer in the idea that you have to have this dialogue regularly, but all of them will
be too early until you get to the point where it's the right conversation at the right time
00:13:44 Speaker 1
It's almost like the hedge is have the conversations now have the dialect now, even though it
might feel like a waste of time.
00:13:52 Speaker 1
But as you're having them regularly then.
00:13:53 Speaker 1
You won't miss the point.
00:13:55 Speaker 1
Where it was important to have the conversation.
187
00:13:58 Speaker 1
So I take the example of let me take an.
00:14:01 Speaker 1
Example there'd be.
00:14:03 Speaker 1
Regular conversations, let's say about climate change and about the need for the circular
economy and about the need for decarbonization right through the 2000s.
00:14:13 Speaker 1
Right. Like you can go and you can find news articles about, you know, radical decarbonization
technologies 20-30 years ago, et cetera, et cetera.
00:14:21 Speaker 1
And they were great conversations, but no one was ready for them.
00:14:26 Speaker 1
Everything else in the world.
00:14:27 Speaker 1
Made no sense to have that conversation, right. And we started having a conversation in this
country in 2019.
00:14:35 Speaker 1
And it was still probably a year or two early.
00:14:38 Speaker 1
In the kind of national dialogue, everybody getting on about it and all the rest of it, but you could
see.
00:14:45 Speaker 1
That as of 2022?
00:14:47 Speaker 1
the dialogue has gone from scepticism to ‘what's the implication of this’
00:14:56 Speaker 1
What it's going.
00:14:57 Speaker 1
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To be like.
00:14:58 Speaker 1
And we're moving the national dialogue.
00:15:00 Speaker 1
Forward each time in terms of awareness.
00:15:03 Speaker 1
And the implication?
00:15:05 Speaker 1
The opportunities, the issues, et cetera associated with the transition.
00:15:10
We wouldn't been able to.
00:15:11 Speaker 1
Have conversations about the circular economy.
00:15:13 Speaker 1
Of the battery two or three years.
00:15:14 Speaker 1
Ago, just when I'm ready.
00:15:16 Speaker 1
For it, we were very ready.
00:15:17 Speaker 1
For what is decarbonization, we're barely.
00:15:20 Speaker 1
This country is barely.
00:15:22 Speaker 1
Are you ready for the fact that you know we're?
00:15:24 Speaker 1
Trying to get to 80%.
189
00:15:25 Speaker 1
Renewables, you know.
00:15:27 Speaker 1
We were objecting to wind farms.
00:15:28 Speaker 1
And stuff like that.
00:15:29 Speaker 1
Although through to 2010.
00:15:31 Speaker 1
And stuff. So yeah.
00:15:34 Speaker 1
How would build a national dialogue with stakeholders, right.
00:15:38 Speaker 1
You obviously have to create.
00:15:39 Speaker 1
For for all.
00:15:40 Speaker 1
Of them to be able to participate, they need to be able to.
00:15:43 Speaker 1
Participate individually and collectively.
00:15:45 Speaker 1
So you need to create forms where you can get individual issues out on the table as well or
individual grouping of issues on the table as well as collective forum.
00:15:54 Speaker 1
To I suppose tree edge and solution and and and kind of dialogue and innovation and things like
that.
00:16:01
OK, OK.
190
00:16:02 Speaker 1
But the most import.
00:16:04 Speaker 1
Is frequency, so you cannot say something like this up and say we're going to talk about.
00:16:10 Speaker 1
It once a year.
00:16:12 Speaker 1
Like it really does need to be a commitment to a conversation, yeah.
00:16:18 Speaker 1
You know, at a regular high frequency and the the trouble we're having with national.
00:16:24 Speaker 1
That kind of forms and stuff like that, that once.
00:16:27 Speaker 1
So you know, they become big news for couple of weeks in the newspapers and stuff like that.
00:16:32 Speaker 1
And then they're they're gone again and tell we come back and we talk about it again a year
from.
00:16:37 Speaker 1
Now and the problem is normally the dialogue is negative, right?
00:16:42 Speaker 1
Because we're already dealing with.
00:16:43 Speaker 1
Once a year.
00:16:44 Speaker 1
Everybody feels the need to remind everybody.
00:16:47 Speaker 1
But all the world is on fire and how we've messed this up for the last 30.
00:16:50 Speaker 1
191
Years and so.
00:16:50 Speaker 1
On, and so forth, and every conversation starts with.
00:16:53 Speaker 1
That instead of continuing the conversation.
00:16:58 Speaker 1
Regularly so you don't have to keep reminding people
00:17:00 Speaker 1
People about how.
00:17:01 Speaker 1
Funky, we are etcetera, etcetera.
00:17:03 Speaker 1
We actually just start with.
00:17:04 Speaker 1
OK, let's we talked about that last.
00:17:06 Speaker 1
Let's keep going now.
00:17:07 Speaker 1
We keep moving into the into.
00:17:08 Speaker 1
The next stage right. So.
00:17:11 Speaker 1
That will be the.
00:17:12 Speaker 1
Key to design, in my view, Colin will be how do you build it for frequency as opposed to?
00:17:19 Speaker 1
You know these forum of of of 1 conversation a year.
192
00:17:23 Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. It needs to be an ongoing dialogue and needs to be kind of folded into the fabric of
of your day-to-day life in a way.
00:17:30 Speaker 2
If you know if your of your of.
00:17:32 Speaker 2
Your yeah, of all the choices you make and needs to be needs to be involved.
00:17:36 Speaker 2
So sustainability in general I think is is is such an invogue term right now.
00:17:40 Speaker 2
It's almost kind of.
00:17:41 Speaker 2
Lost its meaning like it's just like.
00:17:44 Speaker 2
What does that?
00:17:44 Speaker 2
Does that even mean so?
00:17:46 Speaker 2
Yeah, I think.
00:17:47 Speaker 1
And there is people just using it.
00:17:48 Speaker 1
In the Harvard dictionary.
00:17:49 Speaker 1
Kind of view of sustainable as well, like there are people that basically just saying something is
sustainable without actually meaning the sustainable development goals are sustainability
in the context of.
00:18:01 Speaker 1
Climate or environment? They're just.
193
00:18:03 Speaker 1
Saying my business is sustainable.
00:18:05 Speaker 1
I like it, won't.
00:18:06 Speaker 1
It's a.
00:18:07 Speaker 1
Going concern right in the counting like you know.
00:18:09 Speaker 1
What I mean?
00:18:11 Speaker 1
So yeah, there's a.
00:18:11 Speaker 1
Lot of.
00:18:12 Speaker 1
There's a lot of.
00:18:14 Speaker 1
Say what you mean is kind of necessary in the conversation at.
00:18:18 Speaker 2
The moment. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:21 Speaker 2
OK, so in your opinion, which of course, yeah, what are the key challenges and opportunities in
developing A framework that promotes sustainable practices in the electric vehicle
ecosystem?
00:18:38 Speaker 1
But the key challenges.
00:18:41 Speaker 2
Yeah, key challenges and opportunities.
194
00:18:43 Speaker 2
So yeah, like part of part of this obviously like our goal is to develop a framework that it's kind
of holistic.
00:18:51 Speaker 2
It's kind of trying to capture all the things, all the elements of what we're trying to discuss.
00:18:55 Speaker 2
It's a lot of it's juggling.
00:18:57 Speaker 2
Many pieces but.
00:18:59 Speaker 1
Well, actually that, that, that kind.
00:19:00 Speaker 1
Of gives you a bit of your answer.
00:19:02 Speaker 1
In my opinion.
00:19:03 Speaker 1
The challenge of designing A framework is.
00:19:06 Speaker 1
There are multiple use cases, multiple actors.
00:19:11 Speaker 1
Which multiple?
00:19:18 Speaker 1
In the ecosystem, so from the manufacturers who have.
00:19:26 Speaker 1
Built a bunch of.
00:19:28 Speaker 1
PHEV's that they need to.
00:19:30 Speaker 1
195
Sell before they want you to buy your your bed vehicles, which you know then they want you to.
00:19:36 Speaker 1
They want you to buy they.
00:19:37 Speaker 1
Want you?
00:19:37 Speaker 1
To sell to four court operators and and places refueling centers, shall we say.
00:19:47 Speaker 1
And what their?
00:19:48 Speaker 1
Goals and objectives are in terms of.
00:19:51 Speaker 1
You know, monetizing your visit fundamentally to to refuel.
00:20:00 Speaker 1
To the other charging ecosystem elements like your your Chargers in local local authorities to.
00:20:09 Speaker 1
Your your sports grounds.
00:20:11 Speaker 1
Or hotels and all that kind of all that kind of stuff.
00:20:15 Speaker 1
All while being under this kind of tension and pressure of we, we we don't actually want you to
buy an EV or to drink. We prefer about 20 to 30% less kilometers.
00:20:27 Speaker 1
To be driven so.
00:20:29 Speaker 1
You know, there's a lot of there's.
00:20:30 Speaker 1
196
A lot of good work going on inside the city at the moment, you know, trying to attack exactly
this.
00:20:36 Speaker 1
You know, this kind of idea about.
00:20:38 Speaker 1
Of a framework for sustainability EV ecosystem and.
00:20:43 Speaker 1
They haven't cracked.
00:20:44 Speaker 1
It or anything like that now by any means, because at the same time as creating such a
framework for something to be more sustainable, they're also trying to push the transition
as hard as possible to 20.
00:20:53 Speaker 1
30 because we need the decarbonization effect. So you kind of do have a bit of a catch 22 at the.
00:21:00 Speaker 1
Moment in terms.
00:21:01 Speaker 1
Of all of the pressures and motivations are.
00:21:04 Speaker 1
Get as many of these.
00:21:05 Speaker 1
Out on the road as possible.
00:21:07 Speaker 1
Right now, the government has set the goal to reduce the kilometers by about 20% by 2030 as
well, but.
00:21:14 Speaker 1
You know you're.
00:21:15 Speaker 1
Creating those two tension points, they're not necessarily joined up so.
197
00:21:21 Speaker 1
And we kind of cut right to the to the heart, sustainable EV framework would have sharing at the
heart of it.
00:21:29 Speaker 1
So it wouldn't have personal ownership in the heart of it.
00:21:32 Speaker 1
You know what I mean?
00:21:33 Speaker 1
Like, so.
00:21:34 Speaker 1
Not everyone in the world.
00:21:37 Speaker 1
Should or.
00:21:39 Speaker 1
Should it be college?
00:21:41 Speaker 1
To convert their ice vehicle to an EV, we should have less cars on the road at the end of this
transition.
00:21:47 Speaker 1
Than ever before.
00:21:49 Speaker 1
And the only way to.
00:21:50 Speaker 1
Do that is through a framework that actually.
00:21:52 Speaker 1
Moves more towards.
00:21:53 Speaker 1
A sharing model or a feed based model so.
198
00:21:57 Speaker 1
Pools of vehicles basically.
00:21:58 Speaker 1
Pools of EV's that people can call up.
00:22:01 Speaker 1
And utilize on a sharing basis.
00:22:03 Speaker 1
Is prop or the like public transport?
00:22:06 Speaker 1
Yes, micro mobility, yes etcetera, etcetera.
00:22:10 Speaker 1
But at its heart it's ownership.
00:22:13 Speaker 1
And if you think about.
00:22:15 Speaker 1
Our relationship to our existing ICE vehicles.
00:22:19 Speaker 1
We should be developing A framework that breaks that idea of individualized ownership of of
EPS. Somewhere along the way between between now and 2030. That's the only way we'll
actually get that effect of radically reducing the number of vehicles and the demand for
vehicles on the road.
00:22:34 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:35 Speaker 2
I mean, yeah, I think that's about as as good of an answer as we can really hope for in that
question.
00:22:41 Speaker 2
We've asked that question a few number people and it's just, yeah, it's really there's there's a
million pieces too.
199
00:22:46 Speaker 2
But I think I like your idea of.
00:22:47 Speaker 2
Bringing it down to sharing.
00:22:48 Speaker 2
That's that's a.
00:22:50 Speaker 2
That's a nice insight.
00:22:52 Speaker 2
Kind of kind of going off of what you were saying there. So like we've talked a bit about fleet
management for EV's as well as battery leasing and battery swapping.
00:23:05 Speaker 2
Do you think there's any kind of future and battery leasing battery swapping for EV's? I mean
we've we've heard a couple different directions.
00:23:12 Speaker 2
From this so.
00:23:14 Speaker 1
And for personal vehicles, I just don't think.
00:23:18 Speaker 1
It's going to be necessary.
00:23:22 Speaker 1
The range performance of most of these RV's now is a point where that whole, like battery
swapping technology requirement is.
00:23:31 Speaker 1
Likely to be more infrastructure than than is warranted to be honest.
00:23:34 Speaker 2
Yeah. So.
00:23:36 Speaker 1
UM.
200
00:23:38 Speaker 1
The battery leasing concepts.
00:23:43 Speaker 1
I don't know, I think.
00:23:44 Speaker 1
It's going to.
00:23:46 Speaker 1
It can work if you get the sharing.
00:23:49 Speaker 1
Model. There you know.
00:23:50
So yeah.
00:23:52 Speaker 1
Like the nice thing about the sharing?
00:23:54 Speaker 1
Model is.
00:23:55 Speaker 1
I actually think that the the.
00:23:56 Speaker 1
Whole battery performance thing will start to get negated because if I'm just.
00:24:00 Speaker 1
Sharing a pool of vehicles.
00:24:02
Right.
00:24:03 Speaker 1
I'm less tied up in the fact.
00:24:05 Speaker 1
201
That the battery, that's.
00:24:06 Speaker 1
In there has reduced by 20% efficiency as long as it's still got the range that I need for my
journey. I'm just.
00:24:13 Speaker 1
Going to jump in.
00:24:14 Speaker 1
It and I'm going.
00:24:14 Speaker 1
To go because my own personal.
00:24:18 Speaker 1
APIs and performance isn't tied.
00:24:19 Speaker 1
Up in the vehicle anymore.
00:24:21 Speaker 1
The fact that the vehicle is.
00:24:24 Speaker 1
You know, degrade it or whatever.
00:24:26 Speaker 1
It doesn't matter.
00:24:27 Speaker 1
Not to the same extent.
00:24:28 Speaker 1
As when you own it yourself.
00:24:30 Speaker 1
Because you don't have that sense of.
00:24:32 Speaker 1
I own this depreciating asset anymore and the battery performance.
202
00:24:35 Speaker 1
So you're you're likely.
00:24:37 Speaker 1
To have, you're likely to have.
00:24:39 Speaker 1
Vehicles in circulation for much longer.
00:24:42 Speaker 1
Under a share pool.
00:24:48 Speaker 1
Vehicle design and OEM design right now, our personal vehicle would suggest that the battery
comes with the vehicle and refurbishment and stuff like that is.
00:24:56 Speaker 1
Going to be.
00:24:58 Speaker 1
It's going to be kind of expensive and.
00:25:01 Speaker 1
I don't know if the lease model.
00:25:03 Speaker 1
Really, lines up very well, like on a battery release basis.
00:25:08 Speaker 1
I'm not sure if it lines up really well.
00:25:11 Speaker 1
UM.
00:25:12 Speaker 1
And then.
00:25:15 Speaker 1
Yeah, that, that, that that would be.
00:25:17 Speaker 1
203
Sorry, I missed another one of the most of your question.
00:25:20 Speaker 1
Repeat it again and there was another part.
00:25:21 Speaker 1
Of that that I had.
00:25:22 Speaker 2
Ohh no no no worry.
00:25:24 Speaker 2
I I kind of made that up on the.
00:25:25 Speaker 2
Spot. I didn't actually have.
00:25:26 Speaker 2
That one in front of me.
00:25:27 Speaker 2
So yeah. Yeah, no, that.
00:25:29 Speaker 2
Was just basically. Yeah, just.
00:25:30 Speaker 2
About you know the battery leasing and battery swapping and trying to figure out there's there's a
way that works I.
00:25:36 Speaker 2
Did think a bit about, you know.
00:25:37 Speaker 1
Side swapping that that's.
00:25:39 Speaker 1
What I was going to say.
00:25:39 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
204
00:25:40 Speaker 1
Heavy, heavy goods vehicles that might be.
00:25:43 Speaker 1
That might very well be an industry in the battery swapping conversation.
00:25:48 Speaker 1
So you think about heavy, good freight and.
00:25:53 Speaker 1
You know a they're heavy goods anyway, so like.
00:25:55 Speaker 1
They're pulling into places that could.
00:25:58 Speaker 1
Have the infrastructure to lift out a big battery pack and drop in another big battery pack,
etcetera.
00:26:05 Speaker 1
They're obviously trucks, right?
00:26:06 Speaker 1
So that maybe they can.
00:26:07 Speaker 1
Createspace for battery packs to be kind of dropped off to the back along with the trailer, hook
up systems and stuff like that, so there's probably more viability in the heavy.
00:26:17 Speaker 1
Heavy goods, heavy duty, space for that.
00:26:20 Speaker 1
And that that.
00:26:21 Speaker 1
Will be under investigation and the other side of that.
00:26:24 Speaker 1
Would be, you know.
205
00:26:26 Speaker 1
The heavy goods drivers would say that the.
00:26:28 Speaker 1
Battery performance.
00:26:28 Speaker 1
Is 4 hours.
00:26:30 Speaker 1
They have an 8 hour shift.
00:26:31 Speaker 1
They don't want to be spending an hour now stuck on the charger.
00:26:33 Speaker 1
So yeah, you know, kind of again creates liability issues, so.
00:26:38 Speaker 1
That might be a player for them.
00:26:40 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:42 Speaker 2
One of the other interesting bits about that that I was it just occurred to me just now is the
difficulty that would come with the better releasing and battery swapping.
00:26:50 Speaker 2
Obviously you have to have some sort of standardization or it's going to be company by
company basis which causes a lot of immediate impediments, like being able to to scale
that up to make that useful, and having all of the.
00:27:00 Speaker 2
Infrastructure built to do all this is just it's a minefield. Yeah, yeah, I see. It's 1130 now. If you
have to go, that's OK, but otherwise, yeah.
00:27:10 Speaker 1
You can help me for another 5.
00:27:13 Speaker 1
206
Then we'll.
00:27:13 Speaker 1
Have to go.
00:27:14 Speaker 2
OK, perfect.
00:27:15 Speaker 2
OK, let me look at a couple of questions here and see.
00:27:17 Speaker 2
Which ones have the most?
00:27:20 Speaker 2
Most sauce.
00:27:21 Speaker 2
Most good, good juice.
00:27:26 Speaker 2
OK, so since obviously you have a lot of people been interviewing, you know, necessarily
haven't been in Ireland, so they don't have a lot of insights for Ireland in particular.
00:27:36 Speaker 2
So I I guess we can, we can say we've looked in different different technologies as well, so not
just PHEV's and BV's but also like hydrogen fuel cell we're we're kind of tiptoeing into
that a little bit. Just trying to see what people are thinking about the space setting. So where
do you see Ireland 10 years from?
00:27:54 Speaker 2
Now in terms of.
00:27:55 Speaker 2
The success or otherwise of transition to non fossil fuel, particularly in comparison to other
countries.
00:28:02
Ohh I think.
00:28:03 Speaker 1
207
We will do quite well.
00:28:09 Speaker 1
I can't know what the target.
00:28:10 Speaker 1
Is, but Once Upon a time.
00:28:11 Speaker 1
Is around 900,000 vehicles or.
00:28:13 Speaker 1
Something like that for 2030.
00:28:17 Speaker 1
What will start to happen in Ireland is just the size of our market.
00:28:21 Speaker 1
We're we're pure offtaker.
00:28:24 Speaker 1
Of of economics, so if the transition is going well in Germany and France and the UK, then the
availability of vehicles and the push here will will dictate that so.
00:28:37 Speaker 1
On the flip side, then, I think you know the the kind of the government policy push will will take
care of the rest of the ecosystem in terms of the transition.
00:28:47 Speaker 1
So I think it will be, I think it.
00:28:49 Speaker 1
Will go quite well, I think will be.
00:28:51 Speaker 1
We'll have a lot of Eva's on the road here by 20-30 and I'm not sure if the driving behavior side
of this will change as much between now and then.
00:29:04 Speaker 1
But then like.
00:29:05 Speaker 1
208
Ireland places really well in the context of renewables and innovative companies that are actually
exporting out into the EU and stuff.
00:29:14 Speaker 1
Like that.
00:29:15 Speaker 1
So I'd I'd be.
00:29:15 Speaker 1
I'd be kind of.
00:29:18 Speaker 1
I'd be cautiously optimistic, yeah.
00:29:21 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
00:29:24 Speaker 2
So obviously.
00:29:27 Speaker 2
Having you would imagine, then in the next 10 years, there's, I'm sure there's, I think Mary's.
00:29:31 Speaker 2
Actually talked about this, but I forget.
00:29:32 Speaker 2
What she said.
00:29:34 Speaker 2
About like infrastructure being built over the next 10 years to accommodate all those electric
00:29:39 Speaker 2
Do you think it would fall more of like a the model of like building gas station kind of style
charging stations or do you think it should be more of like a personal?
00:29:48 Speaker 2
Like people need to have home chargers that.
00:29:50 Speaker 2
209
That do this more so.
00:29:52 Speaker 1
Are we gonna really?
00:29:55 Speaker 1
Unique opportunity.
00:29:56 Speaker 1
In Ireland, we've an awful lot more house ownership as opposed to apartment ownership in our
mix, so I do believe that Ireland will have an awful lot of home charging. I think most
homes will have a home charger by 2030, whether they have EVs or not
00:30:24 Speaker 1
Then, with EV's and stuff like that, so you can see that that being a feature of our landscape,
yeah, but we'll absolutely have the, the four courts fueling station.
00:30:37 Speaker 1
Kind of situation as well like.
00:30:40 Speaker 1
Like, we've been an awful lot of fueling stations that are out there right now.
00:30:43 Speaker 1
Not every one of them is going to convert to to any TV station.
00:30:47 Speaker 1
It just won't happen with the grid connectivity and stuff like that, but like most of the most of the
major providers like the Apple green to the staircase and stuff like that, they already have
big plans to convert big areas of their four.
00:31:00 Speaker 1
Towards to EV and charging.
00:31:03 Speaker 1
So yeah, I think that'd be makes.
00:31:04
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:06 Speaker 1
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I don't know if we'll actually see stand alone.
00:31:10 Speaker 1
EV charging. Few of the cards, maybe one or two by 2030.
00:31:13 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:14 Speaker 1
OK, I can't imagine we'll have more back.
00:31:16 Speaker 2
I imagine a lot of parking lots are going to add them in, you know, just.
00:31:19 Speaker 2
A big parking lot.
00:31:19 Speaker 2
You can just throw a throw a few charging stations in there as well while you're going.
00:31:23 Speaker 2
To the shop.
00:31:25 Speaker 2
OK. So yeah.
00:31:26 Speaker 2
We have one minute left, so just want to say Thanks, Stephen.
00:31:28 Speaker 2
Appreciate you joining for this today.
00:31:31 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely interesting.
00:31:33 Speaker 1
We'll go look at the project guys and the best of luck with everything.
00:31:35 Speaker 2
Thank you.
211
00:31:38 Speaker 2
Appreciate it.
00:31:39 Speaker 2
And thanks, Leo and Annie for setting everything up and everything.
00:31:42 Speaker 2
Appreciate you guys.
00:31:44 Speaker 2
Bye you later.
00:31:46 Speaker 2
Bye bye.
Transcript for I6

Yeah.

To the the the we should be upset.

Ohh yeah working is it?
Yeah. OK.
I6 0:09
Of.
212
Perfect.

So the first question we have is what are the major environmental benefits of EV's
compared to traditional IC's, and how can these benefits contribute to overall
sustainability?
I6 0:26
Yeah, I suppose the main benefits would be, I suppose you're taking you're you're a big
efficiency boost when after vehicle itself.
So you're typical electric vehicle will be about 85 are sent to 90 something percent
efficient and there's no tail pipe emissions at where to be glass operating.
Whereas if you look at uh, internal combustion engine vehicle, you'll have fumes coming
out of the exhaust and umm, you and they're, you're like this.
So let's say in cities you'll have the emission will be going into the city at all for any of
you have ever walked past the kind of dual carriageway and thing.
And smells the diesel fumes.
So, uh diesels particularly bad for that, but the, the other thing is, yeah.
The electric vehicle still have to be powered by something, so if you're just burning coal
and money, point to power them, it's just as bad.
You're just, the emissions are going somewhere else.
So I think if you want to get environmental benefits from electric vehicles, you have to
know what you're charging them with.

Yeah.
Thank you.
Umm, so our next one is so battery technology plays a crucial role in EV's.
213
Can you discuss the current advancements and and future prospects in battery
technology for EV's?
I6 2:15
So with with batteries I supposed uh, but I've been hearing is, let's say, obviously the
more power dense battery is, the better it is.
More kilowatt hours per kilogram and and that kind of thing.
But the big problem with batteries is their lifetimes.
So if you take, let's say if you buy a new phone in the morning, you'll charge it 200%.
You probably won't have to charge it for two days if your phone is two or three years
old, you'll charge it at 8:00 o'clock in the morning, and you'll be hoping that it will get to
6:00 o'clock.
So you can charge it again before it dies.
That's kind of a similar thing happens with electric cars.
It doesn't happen over quite as quick it period because the battery management
systems are more sophisticated and there's, let's say, thermal monitoring.
So they don't let the battery get too hot or too cold, but but still what will happen is
after maybe eight years would be kind of a typical electric car battery warranty.
Toyota do 10 bars.
Eventually the battery is going to be the first thing that kind of the grades in the cache.
So if you have someone who bought an electric car 10 years ago, the range they have
won't be anywhere near orange they had from the cow was new.
Uh, so eventually what will happen is that battery will get to a point where it's kind of
not really that what we call end of life.
So there's a lot of work going into battery recycling.
Basically, strip all the rare earth metals out of it and the lithium and all the other things,
and use that to make a new battery.
And that is kind of where more the research is going now than making the batteries
more power dense.
And so there's a yeah, it's about your cycling, I think is the big and battery lifetime if you
214
can get a battery that will last 2025 years, that would be a lot better then you're up to
the point or something else in the caravan probably go around first.

Right.
Yeah.
I6 4:24
But yeah, I think battery lifetime and recycling of the ones for me anyway.

Yeah.
And just in relation to that, it was actually our next question, the kind of recycling area
of it.
So we were wondering what innovative math vids or technologies are being developed
to improve battery recycling efficiency and reduce the environmental impact of battery
disposal.
I6 4:51
Yeah.
So I I'm not an expert on it at all, but they kinda have chemical processes, kind of like
where if you because the way you see someone, if you've done leaving sector during the
chemistry you'd see they do things where you put an electric current in the pulls
minerals out of the water onto one of the electrodes.
I think they have those kind of systems running and a few other bits and pieces which
I'm yeah, I I I wouldn't know much more about that.

Hey.
215
I6 5:16
The other thing I will say on something else to say, China on batteries as well is the
materials going into them are changing.
So let's say they're trying to.
They're just like traditionally little bit a lot of nickel and cobalt in batteries.
They have our supply.
Their rare they're rare metals there, expensive and they're hard to come by, so people
are kind of moving trying to reduce nickel and cobalt content and moving towards.
So there's more and more lithium iron phosphate coming in now.
So it's uh, it's just lithium.
Iron is fairly abundant.
Uh lithium is fairly abundant in the arts cross, but the problem with lithium is, and this is
another obstacle for batteries, is there's loads of it there, but all the refining technology
and all that is mostly located in China.
So when you have every when you have 111 country owning the vast majority of
equipment needed for it, it becomes he can be, can cause problems.
And for I I suppose builder limitation as well as what we have loads within the across the
amount of lithium mining and refining we have, they've got a bit of a bottleneck.
So that that's a problem as well.
So we kind of need to diversify where we get the lithium from and where we refine it so
that we're not all kind of limited one place in particular.

Yeah.
Thank you.
Umm, we were wondering if, Umm battery leasing and swapping is an area that's being
discussed that you're finding at the moment for EV's.
I6 7:04
It's not for cars, and the problem with it eat like I think Tesla have a pattern going back
216
eight or ten years on battery swapping, but the problem is the batteries are that
probably 500 kilos or they're there abouts for an EV battery pack depending on the size
you'd need like no person's going to lift that.
So you'd need a method of dropping the battery out.
Yeah, you basically need a whole bunch of machinery to do that.
Then the problem is fund the batteries.
Or do you have two exposed very high voltage connectors and the other issue is as well
as let's say you bought a new EV yesterday, a new your new battery.
That's like I was saying earlier was at beginning of life and has very long charge and you
swap and then all of a sudden you get a battery that isn't great in comparison.
There's a risk that way too.
So what?
When you'll end up having to happen is you would buy the car, but you wouldn't go on
the battery.

Yeah. Umm.
I6 8:03
But yeah, it doesn't seem to be something unseen. Nothing.
I think bigger than scooters really.

Yeah.
Interesting.
And so we were wondering to what extent might skill set deficits hamper the rollout of
EV's?
Umm yeah.
I6 8:24
217
I I suppose it's not as bad as people might think, because there's very limited servicing
required of them compared to engine, so you don't have any oil changes or filter
changes or anything like that.
There's no kind of scheduled maintenance really.
The only time you have to look at added as if something goes wrong.
Yeah, I suppose there's like dealership probably have enough time to train up some of
their mechanics to to do that.
And I know they're special insulated tools.
You get where there's let's say paintball insulating rubber grip on the handle.
So if by accident you do come into contact with high voltage, you should be protected
from it.
So I don't think it's it's a major issue because the maintenance is low.

Yeah.
So how can renewable energy sources such as solar and wind power be integrated into
electric vehicle charging infrastructure to enhance sustainability?
I6 9:30
OK, so the the interesting thing about when when that solar is you don't know when
you're gonna get them.
So like so, are you a fairly good idea?
If it's in the day and it's sunny, you'll get it.
But you don't know that it's gonna be cloudy or or white.
The same with the the wind.
You don't know when the wind is going to blow and our.
Big problem with our electricity grid is I think our storage capacity is about less than 1%
of our generation capacity.
So what happens is sometimes if there's, if there's a lot of wind blowing in the night and
the electricity isn't being used, they actually have to turn off the wind turbines because
you need to basically keep the power going onto the grid the same as the power going
218
off the grid.
And because of the way our our greeted be let's say about 240 volts and 50 Hertz kind
of thing we if you let's say put too much energy on the frequency starts increasing and if
you put too little energy on the frequency starts dropping and the voltage the same.
So you have to keep that fairly constant.
So we need a way to store stored electricity, so there's that to be lack we have.
So I suppose if you have EV's plugged in, you can, let's say if there's excess wind
blowing, you charge the cars.
If there isn't, you don't charge the cars, but that's only useful when the cars are plugged
in.
If you're going to work through the day here, on off somewhere for the day, and your
car isn't plugged in, that doesn't work.
So I think the if we want renewables to work for fueling vehicles, we need to increase
the storage on the grid significantly.

Thank you.
And So what strategies can be implemented to ensure the accessibility, efficiency and
scalability of charging infrastructure?
Umm per evies.
I6 11:29
Yeah.
So it's yeah, it's kind of a chicken and the egg situation because I suppose anyone who
puts in charging infrastructure are doing it to make money off of it.
They're not, let's say, doing it so if, if if you want to put in charging infrastructure, you
want to know that there is enough EV is going to use it, that you can make a profit.
But at the same time, if you want to buy an EV, you want to know that there's charging
infrastructure there, so you can charge it.
219
And.
I6 11:55
So it's kind of a, it's kind of a slow, a slow process, hot load.

Umm.
I6 12:01
I kind of see happening is the number of EV will gradually increase so then the number
of charging facilities will gradually increase.
But I don't think there will be a big roll out of chargers on the side of the roads in the
morning or anything.

Yeah. Umm.
So can you discuss the potential benefits and challenges of implementing via vehicle to
because degrade systems in terms of grid reliability, renewable energy integration and
overall sustainability?
I6 12:37
Yeah.
So you have the vehicle to grid is kind of the opposite of what we were saying about the
charging the cars of the wind turbines.
So it would be, let's say, a few.
220
This.
I6 12:46
The power cut you could probably run your house off your car for several days and this
the same way.
Let's say you could, during the day when electricity prices are high.
Because let's say a wet day with no wind blowing and you just have to car parked
outside.
Who discharged car and run the house and then charge the car back up on the night
server.
So it is.
It is useful in terms of your question on limitations with it and things like that.
The there are more, let's say by directional chargers being put into into cars now and
they would be kind of certified to match with the grid.
But I suppose depending on where the car is going to, the grid is going to be different.
So here where let's say 240 volts.
50 Hertz in America, there are 120 Fulton, 60 Hertz.
So you need to kind of design the onboard charger so that when you when you plug it
in the charger knows what the grid is doing and it knows what the car is doing and then
you have your power converter on the car designed to match to the grid, so.
The same with your phone charger.
If you plug it in here and you get an adapter and plug it into Mark, it'll it'll still work.
It's because it's designed to work on both groups, so the you do the same with cars.

Sure. Umm.
So do you have? Sorry.
So where do you see Ireland 10 years from now in terms of success or otherwise of
transition to non fossil fuel?
221
I6 14:27
Ohh yeah, there's that I that's still be fossil fuels in Ireland in 10 years time.
I think it'll like if you look at, you'll probably see the percentage of EV's on the road.
Road will increased gradually.
I'd say there'd be a bigger uptake in hybrid vehicles as well, because they avoid range
anxiety and you're still getting some electrification stuff in there.

Right.
I6 14:52
The regenerative breaking and that.
So that's actually hybrid vehicles that I look at predominantly not battery electric,
because what I'm looking at is kind of more heavy duty trucks and things like that.

Yeah.
I6 15:04
And if you were to put batteries on some of them because they're so heavy, it takes a lot
more energy to move them.
Battery pack would actually need to be bigger than the truck by the time you were
finished.

Good.
I6 15:14
222
If you wanted to match the range.
So yeah, I think the numbers will increase gradually like they have been doing.
But I'd say any of those generally, if there's a government target there for something by
2030 or 2035, I don't think we've met any of those.
So I'd say you kind of assume that it's gonna be whatever that target is.

Umm.
I6 15:35
It's gonna be significantly less than us when the time comes.
It's usually the way it seems to work.

Yeah.
And we have.
Umm do you see?
The investment investing of long term batteries like capacity and and like kind of battery
to oht.
Sorry, I just realized you sorry.
I6 16:02
Alright, grant.

I think that's all the questions we had.
223
Yeah, I think I think maybe so obviously like we've looked into not just battery electric
vehicles you know specifically are kind of like lithium ion battery electric vehicles.

Yes. Yeah.

But we've looked at like hydrogen fuel cell batteries, fuel cell vehicles and all these
different elements.
Do you see like a direction like?
I6 16:32
It.

Obviously the the market leader is the AMI and batteries and battery electric vehicles,
but do you see like hydrogen fuel cell technology taking a niche in this in the future like
I've, I've heard it talked about heavy duty trucks that that might be a good Ave is going
that that route.
I6 16:53
Let's say, I'm a big fan of HFCs and if you asked me five years ago, I'd have thought that
would have taken off more than the batteries.
But I think what kind of happened is a lot of funding went into battery research and
that's improved the batteries a big but from what I can see because of the the lifetime
and the range and the several hour long charging time, I don't actually think batteries
are the best way to go.
224
Umm.
I6 17:16
I think if the the big limitation with hydrogen fuel cells though is the cost of them, I
think they use like the still the the the best electrode you can put in them is platinum
which is it's very expensive.

Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I6 17:32
What I think in terms of Toyota have a card the the mirror there they're over in England.
I'd like you can read like I think it's 7.5 KG's of hydrogen will get that car about 750
kilometers of range and you can refuel it in like 3 to 5 minutes when you put on the
nozzle.

Who?
Yeah.
I6 17:54
Yeah. The other.

That's cool.
225
I6 17:55
Yeah, I know.
I'm a big fan of it.
There are some problems with.
The other thing is, if you think you've your fuel tank in your car, it's not air tight.
When you, if you, let's say if there's a, let's say an error there, there'll be a bit of.
If your hair is very empty and you'd fill this, you take the cap off.
You'll feel a small bit of a vacuum, but small.
Whereas hydrogen, it has to be fully sealed, there's a few leaks out, so that's that's kind
of more complicated as well.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I6 18:25
So it would just be more.

Yeah, because I was.
I was thinking that too because it doesn't need to be kept pressurized, right?
It needs to be kept at a certain pressure.
I6 18:31
He it does because it's it's.

Is it? Yeah.
226
I6 18:34
That's it.
The lightest element there, so it'll be pressurized if you look up.
There's quite a few videos on the Toyota Mirai and what they have is the tanks are 2 1/2
KG.

Yeah.
I6 18:45
So the first generation one had two 2 1/2 G tanks.
The new one has, uh, a turd month, so 7 1/2 KG in total.
So they're just hang that up.
Yeah, it's great the So what happens is that you pressurize it for two reasons.
One, because if you left it at atmospheric pressure, its volume will be huge.
The second one is because hydrogen is, let's say, flammable.
What will happen?
Sorry is if it's pressurized in the tank gets punctured, it will dissipate really quickly, faster
than it can catch fire.
So another big I'll come back to the rest of that store in a second, but another big
obstacle to hydrogen is, you know, the Hindenburg.
Umm.
Air, air play.
The problem with that was the hydrogen was at atmospheric pressure already, so once it
went on fire it didn't really want to go anywhere.

Yeah, yeah.
227
I6 19:41
It was kind of happy enough, or as in when you're pressurize it, let's say it shoots out
really quickly to try enough pressure relative to the rest of the year.

To remain, yeah.
I6 19:52
So Toyota trying to, I suppose or work around the hydrogen stigma, but actually they
did.
They filled one of their fuel cell tanks with one of the ones off that mirrored car.
With hydrogen as normal and shot it with an AK47 and a firing range, and it actually
didn't light at all because the hydrogen dissipated faster that it could, like see.

Wow.
Yeah, that's cool.
No.
I6 20:18
Yeah, I'm a big fan of it, but I'd say it's it's a couple of decades away.
Yes, if it.

Yeah, that's the thing too.
I6 20:23
If it comes at all.
228
That's a bummer.
That's like one of the main problems, like in terms of like energy too, like like nuclear
power is is pretty awesome.
If you have the infrastructure already built for it, like obviously like it's it's a tremendous
amount to invest.
I6 20:34
Yeah.

It's kind of that same problem where hydrogen is great, but you have to invest a ton to
get it up and running.
I6 20:37
Yeah.
Yeah.

And but once you do that, it was, it goes.
It's great.
I6 20:44
Yeah, because yeah.

Yeah, but.
229
I6 20:46
So I'd be much more of a fan of hydrogen than batteries.
I think we're kind of being ourselves into a bit of a hole with batteries that we're going
to run into a problem down the line, yeah.

Umm.
Requires a lot.
Yeah, there's a lot of and and and thankfully, you know, obviously there's huge
improvements going out all the time.
There was one I think imperius, the technology company that's I think it's out of
Stanford if I'm correct.
I6 21:09
OK.

But I I heard about these guys recently, they have a solid state battery.
That's like, it's like half it's half or a third the weight of the current best.
You know, case batteries and it's like two or three times is like energy dense or
something.
I6 21:19
Yeah.

It's.
230
You have to look it up and Preus they're they have a lot of like government contracts for
like drone technology.
I6 21:23
Yeah, interesting.

So that's kind of like we're looking if we're looking for like a silver bullet, it's gonna be
either an incredible advancement like so batteries are just so much better or it's this is
like a time where electric vehicles, better electric vehicles have their their window to get
us to the next stage and technology perhaps.
I6 21:32
Something like that, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.

But yeah, it's it's interesting.
I6 21:47
Yeah, it's interesting, absolutely.

It's exciting, but like, yeah, it's. It is.
Yeah, yeah.
I6 21:53
Well, that's perfect at.
231
Anything else, Mary? Yeah.

Yeah, I think that was it.
But thank you so much for speaking to us.
I6 22:02
Great stuff.

Yeah.
I6 22:04
Or is it all perfect?

Appreciate it, blank

Yeah.
What did you thank you so much.
I6 22:06
Best of luck with the project anyway.
232
Kevin Codd (Umail) 22:07
Thank you words, but.

Thank you.
I6 22:09
Take care.

And Andy?

Thank you.
I6 22:09
Cheers.
Transcript for I5

OK.
So I'll start us off.
So we're first question is in what direction do you foresee battery versus ICE versus HFC?
Evolving in the field.
I5 1:11
233
I spent the last two days I had a knitter, similar workshop, a signature and National
Highway Transportation Safety Agency, Department of Transport, you know, and this
topic is coming up, I mean.

Umm.
I5 1:29
There is.
I'm just working on the left blank for reason and there's a push in Europe to electrify by
2035.
Does it push in California to electrify by 2035, the companies were all the supply chain.
Are either Chinese or Tesla.
There's going to be a massive disruption to Detroit and the European auto industry and
almost suicidal one, so I'm not sure and the question I posed for the guys at nitza how
do you get from Flint to to Dearborn in the middle of winter in electric car?

Umm.
I5 2:09
You know, I I I you know, I mean I'm in the middle of this, but you know Colin, you
understand that that's not easy.

Yeah.
I5 2:17
You know, a lot of people go north.
234
It is.
I5 2:18
You're heading up to Traverse City.
You're heading up to Harbor Springs.
You're on 75.
You're going at 75 miles an hour.
You ain't going to be going that far without a hybrid and and you so.

No.
I5 2:31
So what's happened?
And this is what I find fascinating.
What's happened is Europe is committed to this path.
Ireland is swear is it knows everything about everything and the the the US, California is
committed.
What is the Chinese?
Have all the cards?

Yeah.
I5 2:50
It's insane.

Yeah.
235
I5 2:53
So I I know you tell me.
Hi hydrogen is a long ways away.
It's not gonna be hydrogen and whether it's uh, hybrid or battery.

You.
I5 3:11
I think there's societal issues.
I think it will be.
Do you want to shut down Detroit or not?

Umm.
I5 3:17
Do you want to shut down the German auto industry or not?
I don't know.

Yeah.

OK.
I5 3:24
I did this.
Yeah, I don't know.
236
Sure.
I5 3:27
So no electric is gonna create keep increasing hybrid.
The consensus is it's a bridging technology and how long it would go on will depend on
on costs and sources and lithium and everything like that.
But there are significant issues there for the industry and I'm not, I honestly don't know
how it'll work or what the pace but electric is here and electric will continue.
And the internal combustion engine, every car will become more hybridized.

No.

Yeah.
I5 4:03
There might type it at the basics.
You electrify what you can.

What would you say about how Toyotas been approaching this whole thing?
Cause Toyota has been a little bit late to the game, some would say in terms of fully
electric vehicles, but they are kind of like, I don't know, it's kind of fascinating what
they're going about.
I know we just talked with Connor, Umm and he he talked about.
I5 4:23
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
237
He talked about HFC, so he was he really likes hydrogen fuel cell.
That kind of talked about with, you know, heavy duty transport.
How that's probably a good option, but I yeah toy is interesting and they've kind of put
their chips down on hybrid for a number of years now like they've had electric solid
electric vehicles, but they've been promoting their hybrid for such a long time.
So it's it's interesting, I know.
They just, they've done a lot with supply chain, especially they've made a huge amount
of investments and yeah.
I5 4:46
Well.
Yeah.
What?
What?
Well, Toyota is interesting in that there other than the Chinese and Tesla, the probably
the only company the company with the knowledge base to high volume electronics
because they do millions of hybrids a year and it's the same technology.

Yeah.
I5 5:08
So what they're missing is the largest got batteries.
Now I've a Toyota car out in the driveway. Umm.
They they they were the first to turn away from diesel.
Umm.
Rightly so.
It was a disaster for the urban environment and Irish governments and the European
Government should never have adopted it. Umm.
238
Umm.
I5 5:35
They've been slower to come into electric UM, but they do have the technology.
Question is, is for them will be the batteries but they have they have everything else and
volume and quality they have the car, they have their electronics, they have the
machines and they can make him into millions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I5 5:52
The the issue that came up last night, it was a brilliant presentation by a guy.

Right.
I5 6:01
He's from Georgia.
Umm.
And he was describing that Tesla had gone manage through manufacturing.
****, in 2017, and it's almost like you're right of passage to get to be a a volume
company in this business.
And when would GM or Ford do that?
When would they be making quarter of million of a particular brand, you know, how
would they compete with BYOD and Tesla and all of these?
These are.
Yeah, almost existential issues, actually.
239
Umm yeah.
I5 6:33
So Toyota, yeah, they they have to.
They have the electronics, they need the battery.

Yep.

Yeah.
So next question is in your opinion one of the most significant technical challenges or
limitations currently facing the widespread adoption of electric vehicles.
I5 6:59
This was this constant supply, isn't it?

Umm.
Umm, yes.
Uh, then, can you discuss the current advance advancements and future prospects in
battery technology for EV's in terms of sustainability and performance?
I5 7:22
So it's kind of more of same, there's no advanced tech battery technology that's going
to be workable or presented.
It's gonna be more of the technologies we see, which is the the nickel based or the iron
based technologies.
And there is no advanced battery technology kind of works close to the market.
240
Umm yeah.
Solid state is long ways away if it ever makes it onto a car.
Uh, so yeah.
No, it's it's more with with cost, sustainability, recyclability, not more iron.
Cobalt is is out and iron is in.

And is has battery second.
Use an area that you've found is being discussed currently.
I5 8:17
Battery.
Second, use doesn't make as much sense for cars like duty cars vehicles.
This little particular reason to take the battery out of a car with 100,000 miles on it.
And because the car can still be driven where they might have, a possibility is for heavy
duty vehicles where you need your vehicle to be able to drive 8 hours or work the full
work shift you.
So then when it can no longer do your work day, then you're going to have to pull out
the pack.
So maybe for heavy duty vehicles, but does no particular reason that a car can drive
around for the next 15 years and just have the battery where down to zero.
And that seems to be the the the industry consensus, yeah.
So second, second juice is I I I don't see happening as much.

Yeah.
Thank you.
Umm, so to what extent might skills set deficits hamper the rollout of EV's in Ireland?
I5 9:24
Ooh.
241
Will Herland doesn't really the issue because we don't design or develop any of these
things here.

Umm.
I5 9:34
So we're just a consumer of a technology.

Yeah.
I5 9:38
So the only question is, do we have the power to plug it in?
Umm, I suppose as long as we don't put too many data centers online, we might be OK
and but you know, God only knows.
And that one and yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we're we're we're we're not consumers.

Yeah, yeah.

OK.
I5 9:55
There's no particular reason, and the car can't be plugged in and run it it.
It shouldn't it the problem is gonna be public charging.
The problem is gonna be.
For city dwellers, no.
Umm.
242
And that's that's folks in Dublin and inner and Cork and stuff like that for.
But it's not gonna be a problem for the suburbs and would be pretty clear.

Is it?
Can you discuss the potential benefits or challenges of implementing vehicle to grid
systems in terms of grid reliability, renewable energy integration and overall
sustainability?
I5 10:41
Yeah.
No, I have, uh, solar running upstairs on the roof.
Yeah, we're gonna see more of that there at the payoff periods are relatively long
because they're really comes out a bit like buying an electric car comes on to do.
You have money?
Umm and same with solar systems, but there are quite sustainable to where quite
renewable and so we'll see more of that.
We'll see more when coming on.
We'll see more solar coming on.
The challenge is that we keep ramping up.
The data centers are gonna have to keep scaling up the the gas in order to be able to
provide the energy when we have neither wind nor nor solar, so they said they'll be
whole bunch of challenges there.
But yeah, it's getting more the the provision of the energy you know has the potential
for being more sustainable.
But whether it will or not, you know, as I say, literally, if we have to scale of data centers,
um, you know, God only knows because there's no, you know, we can conserve all we
want.

Yeah.
243
I5 11:48
But if we're ramping up a huge consumer of electricity like there's no tomorrow, then
you know, does it really matter?

Umm.

Umm.

Umm.
As we have question on like the life cycle analysis, so how can we assess and compare
the overall environmental impact of EV throughout their life cycle?
I5 12:13
I think he got a look at overall carbon.
Uh and.
That can be a difficult one. Uh.
It in in so in my evaluation and calculation of life cycle and carbon cost, it's in recent
years the electric vehicle has gotten advantage up until a number of years ago, you've
been better off with a good hybrid.
Umm the the problem is a lot to comparisons would be with respect to regular
conventional diesel or petrol vehicles, whereas the hybrid would have not.
Would would be more lot more competitive with a battery electric.
So it's hard to say like even if you look at our fuel supply, you know I think our gas
comes from the UK and the North Sea, I and and the carb.
But if we're gonna have LPG tankers coming in from Texas, Louisiana are coming in from
the Amazon Basin.
You know how, how sustainable is or methane supply?
244
Umm.
I5 13:24
And then when you start to crank up gas and the leakages from gas, which that delete
pages can be quite significant and gas can kinda then be disadvantaged and look poor
and almost relative to call.
So it it's, um, uh, yeah, there's a whole bunch of factors in that that don't tend to get
considered.

Thank you.

Umm.

I'm.
So what measures do you think should be taken to enhance the charging infrastructure
and network and ensure it convenient access to charging stations for electric vehicles?
I5 14:06
Letting people surcharge at home used her own renewable supply if they can.

Is.
I5 14:10
Her charge had likely charged.
So I'm I'm, I'm but puzzles as to whether it should be a wide availability of high power
245
chargers.
I I guess I guess there should, but it should be expensive because running a hyper
charger in the middle of the day means you're just burning coal down a money point
and shipping it up.

Umm.
I5 14:29
So high power charging is hard on the grid and doesn't necessarily make sense.
It's low, steady charging is a better.
It's easier in the batteries.
Ensures the life of the battery and is easier on the grid.
So uh, I discourage high power charging.

Umm.
And is has battery leasing and swapping been an area that you've come across at all?
I5 14:59
Yeah, let's try to death several times over.

OK.
Yeah. OK.
I5 15:05
Here.
Yeah, I mean you, you, you you can't swap 1/2 a tone battery pack.
246
Hmm.
Yeah, sure.
I5 15:11
Yeah, you know?

Yeah.
I5 15:11
And then who wants?
Who wants a somebody else's battery pack?

Yeah.
I5 15:16
You know it's it's.

Yeah.
I5 15:17
Yeah, it's it's never taken off.
It's it's one of these things that comes up.

Yeah.
I5 15:20
247
It it has, you know, it has potential in a controlled environment in a controlled industrial
environment, but not for not for regular consumers times.

Yeah, that's that was the.

Umm.

That was the thought.
I think we had to so like like managed fleets of vehicles like that's where it makes sense
when you're talking like economy of scale in terms of if you can have a huge fleet of
vehicles in the all the same battery in them, you can imagine how nice that would be if
you're if you have a the ability to switch those out when needed.
I5 15:38
Yes.

Umm, I think that would be.
That would be very cool.
I5 15:53
Yeah.
No, no.
Like see see the problem is is partially is.
Do you want to cater to everybody's desire for energy and transport whenever they
want it and see if everybody can do everything all the time?
Then you have no savings.
You know the physics says it's going to take a certain amount of energy.
248
So you gotta slow down.
You gotta use less of it and.
And in my at a moderate speed so that that's the puzzle.
But that doesn't work with humanities nature.

Umm.

Right.
Right.
That's that's totally true.
One of the other things that we we're kind of digging into is and I mean a decent
amount of our, our work has been based upon some of these ways of finding efficiency,
right.
So that was I think that was kind of the purpose of trying to figure out, you know, about
battery swapping and battery leasing.
If there's an efficiency that can be found in that, if there's something that could make it
more more, I don't know, more streamlined or something, but has the circular economy
been of electric vehicles been anything that you've seen like it doesn't have to
necessarily be electric, feels even just like understanding, like the holistic, like circle life
cycle of all the components on a car, yeah.
I5 17:05
Quick.
Yeah, but but I I car, interestingly enough, is probably the one feature of all our
economy that is a pure circular economy.
Your typical car has four owners.
Somebody will buy it.
Buy it new.
249
Umm.
I5 17:25
Just sell it three or four years later, it'll go on little 4 owners over his lifetime.
I mean, what other component or device do we sell that has nothing?
There's nothing that we do, so it is to circular economy and then when you're done with
it, you can tear it apart and scrap it and recycle it.
So it's it's almost like you're perfect component.

The.
I5 17:45
I mean, are lot.

Yeah, yeah.
I5 17:46
Yeah, there's nothing else like it.
So, umm yeah, the, the, the, the, the one of the puzzles is the to be able to say sell it on.
You almost need some kind of state of health on the battery, and that's a challenge
right now.
There's, I think, proposals in California that battery state of health be made clear on on
the sale of a car, but it's a puzzle.
It's a technical challenge right now to put a correct state of health and the battery.
250
Yeah.
Yeah, I could see that.
I5 18:20
Yeah.

That's and that's the biggest hindrance, obviously, to the other than the weight of the
batteries themselves.
But to the swapping and leasing?
Yeah, it's.
You don't wanna get somebody else's used and you know it's 100 cycles further down
than yours is.
I5 18:28
Whilst.

So yeah, that's never.
I5 18:34
Well, yeah, but see the the the cost of the cars is dropped and the cost of the batteries
have dropped and you know to swap something that weighs half a ton or if you have a
big truck like you'd have Michigan, there was a full ton or two ton like they're thinking
of putting on the on the new Hummers.

Yeah.
Uh.
I5 18:53
251
**** it.
That's such a pretty big wait.

Yeah, it is.
It is.
It's also silly, like I Americans can't keep living the way they wanna live if they wanna also
have efficiency like you can't.
It's hard to it's hard to to square those two things away at driving it at Hammer and
saying you're for the planet like it's not.
I don't think those things, yeah, necessarily go go together.
I5 19:11
Well, yeah.
No, but but they're they're still, there's different.
I mean, there's a big difference between the winter and cork and a winter in Michigan.

There is.
I found that out this year.
Yeah, it is different.
I5 19:23
Yeah, yeah.

I miss snow, really.

You.
252
I kind of I kind of like the snow, but I was grateful not to have to drive in it for for a year.
I5 19:29
Yep, Yep.

Actually, it's kind of nice.
I5 19:30
Yeah, absolutely.
So you need like a four wheel drive and you need, you know, all kind of heating systems
and yeah.

Yeah.
And the questions there guys, yeah.

So another area we were looking at as well was like the wise management.
So like with the increase of battery electric vehicles like what impacts that might have.
So is that something that you've you have knowledge on the sort of waste management
side of the battery components of electric vehicles?
I5 20:05
But you mean by waste management?
I mean, there's no mission from the vehicle.
253
Like so, like when they come to their end of life, like the disposal exposes.
Sorry is what we mean like.
I5 20:15
Oh, but yeah, no, there's a push to make them recyclable, but that's probably not gonna
see any payoff for another decade because you need large economies of skill to be able
to recycle batteries.

Umm.
Umm.
I5 20:27
And you know, we don't have those level of vehicles, they won't be the the the vehicles
going on the market now won't be coming off another dozen years.

Umm.
I5 20:36
So it's it's so remember a couple of years inquiring about this and they were heading in
either into landfill or into incinerators.
So but I I think as we hit the twenty 30s or later in this decade, we'll start to see recycling
facilities develop.

Umm.
I5 20:55
The challenges is to have a it needs all ever cycling process like, but if everybody is
doing different things and everybody's optimizing different things, is the pact designed
254
to be recyclable?
That's that's the big challenge, you know.
And sometimes the things you have to do to take the cost out of something are not the
same things you do to make it recyclable.
In 15 years, you know.

Yeah.

Umm.
Hmm.

Do you think that's it on questions?
I5 21:28
No.
OK. Yeah.

Yeah, but thank you so much.
I5 21:32
Yeah, it's no good news for you.

No.

No, I I, I I've loved this actually.
255
I love getting.
I love getting a kind of a closed door is actually way more interesting than like all the
doors open.
So like if you if you're saying like you're saying one thing that you know makes it clear,
like you're the first person that's that's said, secondary use batteries, probably not much
of a thing.
You know, it's probably not.
I5 21:57
But I I I heard that from a battery expert last September in Germany doesn't make any
sense for like duty vehicles keep driving the vehicle.

OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I5 22:06
Yeah, but, but, but those, those, those selling the concept will tell you all the wonderful
other things.
Oh my God, we can do this or we can do that.
And and it's it's all ********.
They actually don't know.

Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
I5 22:16
And you know where is I?
256
It's true.
I5 22:18
I just talked to industry and you find out what they actually planning and they're not
planning any of this.

Yeah.
Yeah, there was one thing I I just came across and so I came across.
It was a couple months now, but Imperius Technologies, it's Ambrus Technologies are
just imperius, but it's a US I think Stanford started battery tech company.
They do a lot of stuff with.
Think with the UK and the US, I think they have some military contracts for drones.
They do the like electric battery for drones, and they've been really incredible.
They've made some recent advancements that are like it's of course it's years away from
seeing any use in vehicles, and so it's probably 2027 or something that we actually start
seeing on the road, but it might be worth a look into cuz I believe they have a solid state
battery.
Umm.
Or it's just an much.
I think they have a I obviously I'm not a a tech guy in this amount of material scientist,
so I don't know exactly what they're doing, but it was something about like having the
white or 30, the weight and then also like twice as energy dense or something.
I5 23:14
Yes.
257
It was like it was not an incremental advancement.
It was like a big, pretty big step, but I just know these things take years to actually occur.
I5 23:27
Yeah. There.
Yeah, I I.

So even though even though it's happened in the lab, it's yeah.
I5 23:32
Yeah, I I don't have any hair of any big steps out there, Paul.

Yeah.
Yeah, I just, I I was really excited when I saw that cause this was like we're right digging
our teeth into this project.
And I was like, oh, there's something out there.
I5 23:41
No, I I yeah.
No, I I I as explaining during the week.
I mean we've had.
Umm, one big step in batteries in the last 150 years.
That was lithium in the 70s.

Umm.
I5 23:57
Right before that, we've got the nickel from Thomas Edison.
258
Before that we got lead acid from Gaston Plante and also another generation without
the next one.

Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I5 24:11
Maybe.
No, we're we're done.

We'll see.
I5 24:15
But we're it depends like we're down to, we're going to the third element in the periodic
table, less Lithia moving across the only one below that is hydrogen.
You know, so, so there you're there is not like, you know we've got another hundred
elements that can work across the latest metal there is lithium.

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I5 24:37
So and in the solid state, there's all kind of issues popping up with solid state as a
workable battery option.
And you know, with all these, you gotta be worried about safety.

Umm.
259
I5 24:48
Umm, yeah, they're they're certainly vantages to having polymer or or liquid electrolyte,
stuff like that.

Right, right.
I5 24:54
So it's it's what I'm hearing is it'll it could sell a state would be comparable at
advantages in some areas and disadvantages and other.

Hmm.
Yeah, fair.
Yeah.
Perfect.
I think that's all I have.
A few other things rattling around in my head, but I can't articulate them into questions,
so I think that's good.
I5 25:13
Of Coco.

Yeah.
I5 25:14
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem.
260
Thank you.
I5 25:17
I yeah, you were geeks bearing gifts?
Yeah.
Good luck with all the project work there.
And uh, sure.
Good trip to Michigan there, Colin.

Yep, you as well you as well.
I5 25:30
Hopefully I won't cry.
Hopefully I won't crash into you down and 94 I would not be good.

No.
It's a terrible Rd.
I5 25:37
Yep.

Nobody likes it.
I5 25:38
Yeah.
261
Traffic is bad on it, but anyway.
I5 25:40
Yeah.
OK, no problem.

Perfect.
Thank you.
I5 25:43
God bless.

Thank you so much.
I5 25:43
Bye bye.

Appreciate you.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you.
262
Yeah.
OK.

Any it's perfect, yeah.

You started it?
Yeah.
So you can anyway, I don't see your question.
There we go.

Yeah.
So can we start with the questions?
I7
Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I7 0:25
What?
What?
263
What are you studying, guys?
What's worse?

At, yeah.
So we're starting information systems for business performance.
Umm, but yeah, uh yeah.
I7 0:35
Could I did read that?
Sorry, it was about a week ago, so it's a read the email.

No.
I7 0:40
Sorry. Yeah.

Uh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're kinda, yeah, given the EV project, so that's what we're focusing on, sorry.
I70:47
Our brilliant.
Cool.

Yeah.
So I will start with the first question, which is Rev.
264
I70:57
Yeah.

Specifically, battery allocate electric vehicles BV a sustainable solution for
transportation.
I71:07
Well, they they they're way better than what's there at at the moment.
They're way, way better than petrol or diesel cars anyway, that's for sure.
And hydrogen so far in the future, it's not even credible.
So they are really the only solution.
So there are, they're, give or take about 70% better for the environment than petrol or
diesel cars.
And the hybrids are a joke.
They're just and they're about 10% less polluting.
We'd say overall then petrol or diesel cars, so they were away for the big car companies
like Toyota and such to stall and and hinder EV adoption.
So they can get their act together because they went down the hydrogen route and
they lost.
So rather than putting up their hand and saying that we were wrong, they've tried to
kind of downplay electric vehicle.
So there's been a lot of harm against them, but yeah, long the short of it.
Yet they are better, but they're not a perfect solution.
Like for environmental things, the best thing to do is walk or cycle or use public
transport.

Mm-hmm.
265
I72:22
And but if if well, especially myself, you know from rural Ireland, sometimes there's no
other option than driving a car.
So if you have a choice of a car, and if you can afford it, and definitely the electric
vehicle, the fully electric vehicle is your best option and environmentally.

Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And I'll go with the second question, which is how would you assess the current state of
infrastructure development such as charging stations to support widespread EV
adoption?
Are there any gaps or areas that need improvement?
I73:00
Well, in Ireland it's adequate, adequate, I would say at the moment, but needs to keep
being at least an adequate and hopefully someday been very, very good, you know and
we're getting there.
We're we, we we are getting there.
We're a little behind England and the UK and we're kind of miles behind Norway and
that, but they're out on their own.
And they're like, way ahead of everyone else.
So I suppose we usually compare ourselves to the Brits.
So you know, we're a little bit behind, but, but we're not too bad.
We're not as bad as people that don't drive electric cars.
Think it is?
You know umm.
And yeah, we need to keep putting out as many chargers public chargers as as we can,
especially the the fast, the real fast and rapid chargers, because they're the ones that
people want to use because they want to go in and charge as quickly as possible.
266
Now ohh you know 8 to 9% of your charging is done at home anyway, so you know,
umm there's a I find and I've done a couple of mad journeys around Ireland's driving
electric cars and I've never had very much issues at all and so there's unless you draw it
like before, I drove an electric car.
I never noticed an electric car charger ever, but once you start driving one then you see
them everywhere and and and and and they are but but definitely we need to still the
infrastructure like the cars are brilliant.
The cars are brilliant and and people know kind of five years ago people were worried
that the cars weren't much good.
But they are like, that's been well established that they're actually better cars than
petrol or diesel.
People are more worried about charging the anxiety and not range anxiety, so range
anxiety would be all electric.
Car can only do 400 kilometres, but most people are relies now that they're very rarely
do 400 kilometres, and even if they do, they, you know, they can chart.
So that's not a problem.
Not an issue with the car, I don't think much more.
It's OK if I am going on a long journey.
Where do I charge and will there be chargers and will I be stuck behind someone for an
hour before I can get a charge and I don't have time for that?
So the the more and more chargers there are publicly and people can see them and
and the more confidence people will get to convert to to electric.
So if if if someone who is thinking about driving electric car but they're not too sure I'm
but they see chargers everywhere and they see people using them well, then that that's
a good indication that they'll they'll probably eventually uh change purse.
Yeah, if there was one thing that we absolutely need to keep making better is getting as
many fast chargers out as we possibly can in the right locations where people will
actually use them.

Yeah.
267
Thanks for that.
And that brings us to a third question, which is what do you, who do you consider to be
the most important player in expediting this transition?
Does this change happen at a government or industry level, and if so, why?
I76:34
Yeah.
Yeah, it, I suppose the book stops at at government, really.
You know, I I think, yeah, there were massive role to play.
People don't like change.
So you know it's a new thing, OK?
And before, like you know, we were even afraid of mobile phones and everything.
One time, you know, but you know once, but you need.

Umm.
I77:06
You need government to really campaign and for electric car charging.
But yeah, it all relies on the infrastructure and and and the charging and they're
beginning to I think realize that I suppose that whole change behavior I think in the
early days, five or six years ago, they kind of had a approach of I suppose the
government was.
I will be give incentives and you know we'll we'll give grants and all that which I I think
we're very, very good that would kind of like the carrot you know.
Ohh Lovey dovey dreamland stuff ohf.
Everything's all lovely and nice.
People will change because it's the right thing to do and and some people will change
and some clean and mad people like myself probably did.
But I suppose to get the majority you kinda you almost need a stick kind of approach
that you know and and and it's kind of happened probably more organically like with
268
with fuel prices and stuff.
I think that in the last two years and and coven and stuff that kinda if you'll get so
expensive.
And even though electricity is getting expensive as well, if electricity is way cheaper still
than petrol or diesel, people will at least take a look at it, you know.
Umm, but at the same time, no ones going to but very few people gonna buy a car
unless they're confident that they're gonna be able to charge it.
And they're not going to get stuck at the side of the road.
So again, it all comes back to the people's confidence in the in the, the infrastructure
and that comes down to policy and whatnot from from government.
I I think they're they're doing a lot of campaigning towards it and you know him and
Ryan and gets a lot of kickback from it and opposition and you know, but not I I I think.

Umm.
I79:17
But yeah, it's it's kind of amends trying to get things done, but I suppose Fina, GAIL and
whatnot are kind of we want to get things done, but we won't.
Don't want to upset too many people because we want them to vote for us again.
So you know, I'm just in practically.

So.
I79:39
So yeah, I saw that rambling and small, but now, but yeah, yeah, I I think the
government of huge amount to play and and you know the key thing is to get that
charging infrastructure out there and we'll grow confidence and we go from there.
269
1.

Thanks.
Thanks for that.
And the 4th question is to what extent does the brand image and consumer awareness
of sustainability practices factor into the decision to become more sustainable?
I710:09
Sorry, could you repeat that again?

Oh yeah.
I710:10
Sorry. Yeah.

To what extent does the brand image and consumer awareness of sustainability
practices factor into the decision to become more sustainable?
I710:22
Yeah.
Well, I I I think it wasn't even a thing.
I was just a word.
Sustainability, I say four or five years ago, but now it's definitely for business anyway.
I I and for people in general like, you know, you don't have to.
Really, you don't have to explain what sustainability is now.
270
Five years ago, you would have.
I'm to the general public, which is great.
So that's that's progress.
So yeah, I think consumers are more aware of sustainability and consumers Dr generally
what goes on even though.
So that means the companies I think are they are like you see it every day, you know,
different businesses even I'm into sport like sport as my my background.
And you know, there's professional sports teams now that they're appointing
sustainability officers and directors, sustainability and whatnot because, well, the notes,
first of all, it's the right thing to do and environmentally and socially and and diversity
wise, but also and it's funny and they're realizing it's actually financially better as well,
but probably in the main driver like anything in in business or in is is and customers I
think customers are beginning to take a look at whatever they're buying or consuming
like how sustainable is it now if it's something awesome and you just want it, but it's not
sustainable, you're probably gonna buy it anyway.
But if if you think you know these guys were sustainable, these guys aren't.
You know, there's not much between them.
I think I'll.
I'll.
I'll buy from the more sustainable, I'm environmentally and socially sustainable
company, you know, and I suppose I've I've a major interest in environmental stuff.
But, but there's also, umm, social stuff and renew our and yeah, you know people and
and you know how how our products produced and and and what kind of welfare issues
you know people's welfare and and and and all the rest you know I think umm yeah, it's
it's definitely certainly it's gone from my say not not in people's minds at all I would
think four or five years ago to absolutely probably well up there.
Umm.
In the reasons people would would buy, buy something and I think business realize that
and you know most are putting an F effort into be more sustainable.
Some of it is green washing, you know, like the oil companies, they can't.
But just greenwash over.
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We're lowering our carbon footprint and we have zero missions.
Diesel, like it's literally that's a complete lie, cause it's just impossible.
But today, you know, like they want to survive.
So they're they can't but greenwash.
But other companies that, umm, you know, I think companies are demanding like I see
finance now, a lot of insurance being insurance companies aren't insuring companies
that are relying on fossil fuels, you know.
And and and and and stuff like that.
So things are beginning beginning to to change.
Uh, sustainability wise, so yeah.
And and and under all.
Positive for environment, but you know also for for people welfare is well, you know I I
think it's in it is in consumers minds and is an important thing nowadays yeah.

Yep, that.
Thank you for that.
And the fifth question is, are there any problem areas that you have identified in the
transition to electric vehicles in Ireland?
I714:39
Problem points.
Yeah.

You.
I714:41
Yeah.
Well, I suppose in the very early days four or five years ago, you couldn't really rely on
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the charging infrastructure as in there weren't enough chargers and you would be held
up for maybe half an hour of an hour waiting for someone in front of you to charge.
But that's very, very rare nowadays.
I'm like, just last August and I just for the crack I am and a bit of fun.
I I decided to drive to every rugby club in Ireland so there's two like I used to play
rugby myself so there's 241 rugby clubs in all four provinces, port North and South of
the border and I drove to every single one of them in an electric car just to prove that
it's perfectly possible.
So I did over, ah, seven and a half, 1000 kilometres in the space of four weeks.
Umm, just at a gentle pace and I had no issues.
I literally of all the charging.
I did all the charges were working and which is massive but also I got umm I got
chatting to a lady who's charging her car in front of me and uh for 10 minutes.
So she had 10 minutes left to charge, and she did.
And that was the only delay I had in August, which is high tourist kind of holiday season
and and the roads are busy.
So and the charging stations, would, you know, be being used a lot.
So, so, so, so.
So I I yeah.
So my experience of all the charging is it's it's very, very good, you know and and.
You know, you do a little bit of.
Umm but the vast majority of journeys anyone that ever does is you know they they
lived their house.
The car fully charged because they've charged from the house overnight and then they
go to work and they do their things and normal days and they might only have to
charge once a week.
But then on the on the rare occasion that you'd have a big mad journey to do and there
there is umm, there is plenty of charging.
So I suppose the problem was the charging infrastructure, but that problem is being
solved and it's being solved quite well, but you can never you can never do it too
quickly.
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You know, I think we need to almost oversupply with chargers so that as more and
more cars, there's gonna be more and more electric cars on the road.
So we have to be.
Have more characters than we need all the time and, but you know businesses see an
opportunity in that and there are businesses installing them.
Umm had quite a a fast rate.
Umm, now.
So again, there's no problems with cars.
The cars are awesome, like they're faster and they're more powerful and they're they're,
you know, umm, look, low maintenance and they're cheaper to run and whatnot.
So so, you know, I think in the early days there was maybe a problem that people, so
electric cars is more expensive, but when you're really looked at it, if you compare like to
like cause most electric cars are very high spec cars.
So if you compare that to the high spec petrol or diesel, there's not much in the
difference.
There may still be maybe 10% in the difference there, 10% more expensive, but
generally just an average driving you covered that cost within 18 months of driving and
then all of a sudden electric car is actually way cheaper to operate.
You know, one certainly over its lifetime, way way.
You know, if you have electric car for 10 years, there's see saving the price of another
new electric car pretty much by going electric.
And umm so so again the problems are being solved.
Like you know, the price, like a new car is expensive.
A matter of what?
You buy it, it's going to be expensive, but certainly the electric cars are are cheaper to
run and and they're more expensive because they're just better is well, they're actually
better cars.
And Anna, till you go and drive on.
You don't realize how like there's no the way more comfortable and there's way less
fatigue.
Like I was driving thousands of miles in electric car and you wouldn't be half as tired as
274
you would doing that petrol or diesel.
You know they're fully automatic and they have regenerative breaking, so the car breaks
itself.
If if you're driving responsibly so.

OK.
I719:52
You know, there's so many.
There's certainly more advantages I I think.
Anyway, than than problems.

Thank you for that.
And the 6th question is what do you consider to be the components of a successful
road map towards this code and the goal being the transition towards electric vehicles.
So what do you think are the most important components in this transition?
I720:15
Ohh, they'd all.
This goes back to the charging.
You know that's that's the key element, you know.
You know, if you.
Yeah, that's it.
You know, just keep the charging network better than it should be, and then all of a
sudden you've so much less issues.
So just from all levels, government whatnot, that investment in in infrastructure will will
pay off massively.
275
Yeah.
Thank you.
And the 7th question is, is the circular economy of electric vehicles an area which is
actively discussed in the space?
I720:54
Uh, it's beginning to it's beginning to, you know, it wasn't even talked about, I suppose
four or five years ago, like you just had electric car and they were all new, so there was
no, there's very few second hand ones.
So no one was worried about what's going to happen in 15 years time or for Sam.
It turns out that they're going to be way more recyclable than petrol or diesel cars
cause, and the batteries can be reused as well.
So so you know there there you're looking at electric cars lasting twice as long as a
petrol or diesel cars.
So they're going to be lasting up to four or 500,000 kilometers and it there's first
generation.
So Nissan leaves, which are the worst car electric cars, and they have a million
kilometers on them.
Some you know, there's already.
You know I and the battery is still fine.
So in the early days, people were worried about all the batteries.
They'll only last three years and they they cost a fortune and we'll have to replace them.
That hasn't happened.
That has these batteries are lasting and you know, so it's like the batteries as the big
thing.
So first of all, the batteries can be fully well, 95% recycled at the moment.
So they they're not just throwing in a in a in a dump or whatever, right? So.
And cause all those electronics and the components and the lithium and everything
that goes into them, they're all valuable.
276
So there's they, they are.
So electric car is more, uh, recyclable.
So and also if you want to so.
So really, you know theoretically and it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that
people will buy an electric car, they'll drive it for 30 years and the body will go before
the battery will go.
So then they'll take out the battery and they'll use it as a power wall or something on
their house to store electricity from their solar panels.
So these batteries can be reused and repurposed.
Umm.
A as as as other things like just ifx ifx Amsterdam, the football club, they run their flood
lights off, old used electric and Nissan leaf batteries because yeah, you know the the
cars used this.
And so the general rule of thumb is I don't really know why, but and they say if if
electric car battery goes below it's charging capacity goes below 70% of where it was
when it was brand new that you should change it.
But do you really?
Because you know, you still have.
So if it starts out at 400 kilometers range and after 20 years it drops to 300 kilometres
range like, do you really need to change it?
You know still has 300 kilometres range like, so it's fine.
So you can keep and there's.
There is big warranties on these electric cars.
There's eight year warranties on most of them.
So umm, so if you really do want to change it, then yeah, there's still 70% capacity in
that battery.
So that can be used as I said, for alternative jobs, you know, and you can that can be
used for another 30 years.
So there's probably going to be electric car batteries being produced now, one the last
60 years and they're going to have two lives at least, if not more.
So that's that's circular like reuse is is the best of all worlds.
277
And that's even before it's recycled.
So within 10 years time, the reckon, umm, they'll be 100% recyclable.
The batteries, which means that an electric car is pretty much under percent recyclable.
And that's within 10 years.
They're already at 95%, which is huge, and so no, the like the Mets that these electric
car batteries will end up on the dump and leak lithium into waterways and whatever is is
not gonna happen.

Thank you for that.
And the 8th question is what knowledge would have been valuable to for you to know
prior to transitioning from fossil fuels?
I725:36
Umm, you see?
Well, I I just jumped into electric car for the first time and I couldn't believe how good
they were and how fast they were.
So I I was.
I didn't even think about it.
I was going getting one anyway.

Umm.
I725:50
Umm so.
But I was lucky.
I was lucky in that situation and of course you know, umm, I could afford one that like,
you know, which is a a thing as well.
But I could never afford a for a a new car until then.
278
So you know.
Umm, So what?
How could I have known?
I suppose I did like people do the research nowadays, you know.
And and you look at it and you know I suppose.
I looked at it and and and 10.
You know, I suppose most articles at the time were very negative towards them, you
know, and they shouldn't do them.
So thankfully I didn't listen to all that and and thankfully I did enough research that to
find out that most of those myths are lies.
Really, you know, and they're not true.
So, but, you know, people can be put off by ohh.
I'd have nowhere to charge and all that.
And you know, it's kind of scare mongering.
So I'm not that I was so would have been nice to know for certain that that was
generally none of those negative myths were were true. You know.
Umm, yeah, that's that's one thing.
Umm, so anything else?
Umm.
Yeah.
But can you to I knew that you'd be charging from home.
So, and I knew that.
Yeah.
You know, you might have to wait for a charge or the odd time, but you know, even
that hasn't been the case.
Like, I've very rarely have to wait for a charge.
Or so. That's probably it.
I don't know watching that.

Uh, thank you.
279
Thank you.
And yeah, so the next question is where there any tools used to aid in your transition?
I728:04
That was there any tools?

Yeah, whether any tools to aid you in the transition?
Which acted as maybe an enabler for you to like, you know, consider transitioning from
fossil fuel to an EV car or something.
I728:18
Umm, I know.
Well, yeah, I it's still a little bit.
They're charging cards or a bit of a a bit annoying would be nice to just rock up to a a
car charger and just pay with your credit card or debit card and move on, you know, but
at the moment you kind of have to have an app or a, you know, a charge card thing for
for the correct charger.
Now that's been solved as well, because now there's there are companies that are
doing well.
You get one charge card and you can charge from any charger you like, but when I
started like there was really only two companies with car chargers in Ireland there was
ESB and there was easygo and so.
But you couldn't use an easy go charger on an ESB are you couldn't use an easy goal
card on an ESB charger or vice versa.
And, but I think they're being linked more that rather than having five or six cards for
each of the different types of chargers.
And it'd be nice to just have one, it just it one that you can just tap tap and go basically
and but again that problem has been solved.
280
Like you know, there are companies now that you can get their card and you can use it
on several different, umm, actual physical chargers as as you you're going round or even
better still you know, hopefully someday it E chargers you'll just be able to tap tap your
credit or debit card and and and move on.
I think Tesla have the the technology or Mercedes do.
And there's some of the more luxury brands of cars that you just plug it in and the car
knows that has been charged and it just.
You pay should you pay for it.
The Caribbean Sea pays for it through through, you know, the cars linked to your bank
account or whatever, and you just stick in the thingy and you don't have to do anything.
It recognizes it and it pays for it.
So yeah, and and you know what with technology, all that super duper technology
that's really starting out at the luxury brands, you know that's beginning to filter down
into just the normal brands now, which would be great.
So like there will be some day very shortly, I would say within the next 10 years.
Ohh.
Less maybe that you'll just arrive at a charging station, plug in your car and the car will
pay for it.
You know.

Umm.
I731:10
Umm, yeah.

Yep.
We that that was very close to my next question, which was where do you see Ireland
10 years from now in terms of the success or otherwise of transition to non fossil fuel
particularly in comparison to other countries?
281
I731:26
Yeah, I think we'll get very, very close to reaching our official targets and government
targets.
I think it was a good idea.
Like being Irish, you have to oversell something because no one's going to cause.
So the sell is so the government said they'd have 950,000 and electric cars in the road
by 2030, and everyone laughed.
Ha ha ha.
It's all feeling funny, ridiculous, blah, blah, blah.
And the thing about it is I think that's a good idea because if they said half a million, we
would get 250 on the road.
If you say 1,000,000, we might get half a million on the road.
So you know, so when it comes to it, if we only have half a million electric cars on the
road, they've taken half a million petrol or diesel cars off the road.
And for me, that'll be it.
Success, but it'll be great for people who don't like anything and concede the negative
in everything to go ohh.
You dare?
You never made your targets or you're so bad, so all you failed.
Well, for me, that's not a failure.
So, but I it's looking like the curve like that S curve is beginning to we we've gone
beyond the initial, umm, first whatever that's called the first.
Ohh forget the terminology, but you know that only the few geeks you know like
myself by electric car and then it kind of goes up and everyone starts buying them and
and whatnot.
So we're beyond the the first few people like we're we're in, we're at the start of mass
adoption, we say and you know 2025 I think is kind of a critical one that we're coming
up towards that electric cars on paper on on the price you pay for the car will be equal
to the petrol or diesel and people will be able to work out that well.
It's actually cheaper because, umm, electricity, even though it's expensive, still a lot
cheaper than petrol or diesel.
282
And then by two and also by 2025, people buying new cars, new electric car or new cars
will be thinking well or you normally change my car.
So people that buy new cars, brand new cars, generally speaking to change them after
two or three years, which is an overly environmentally friendly.
But anyway, that's that's what happens.
So by 2025, they'll be thinking who's gonna buy this car off me in 2028?
In three years time, and very few because by 2028 it will be like to be very few people
buying petrol or diesel cars because they'll be so expensive to run.
Umm.
And also you'll get that whole culture change of.
It'll be like smoking in indoors, like it'll be almost unacceptable by 2030.
It'll be unacceptable.
You'll be a bit of * **** if you're buying a diesel car in 2030, you know?
So you'll have that whole social and kind of thing going on is well, you know.
And so, you know, umm, the target is possible.
I actually hope the government don't reach the targets because I hope that they get the
public.
The the public transport infrastructure like buses, bus lanes, cycle lanes, all that kind of
stuff and such good condition that people will decide that actually did not need any car.
Don't don't need electric car.
Don't need any car, so they you know umm.
And and especially that's very, very doable within the cities and all the main cities.
More difficult out to country but.
And you know, so you know, if they don't meet the carpets, I will see.
And infrastructure is good.
Umm, that could be very well a positive thing.
Now you know, maybe maybe to get everything wrong and they won't meet the
character.
They won't meet the public transport targets and they won't meet the electric car chart
charging targets either.
But umm, that's why I think it seems to be like, yeah, definitely.
283
Character electric cars are way better than petrol diesel cars, but do you know what?
If we can, if we can get our public transport like trains, and that uh, that we don't need
as many cars on the road that that would be even better and and whatever cars we do
have Underoath if they're electric.
Yeah, that would be great.

That was a very interesting perspective to know and it it brings us to a final question,
which is are there alternatives to battery electric vehicles which are well positioned to
make for more sustainable transportation?
I736:34
Uh, not rotten right now, and probably not for at least 20 years.
Umm.
As I said at the beginning, like hydrogen is a false pretense.
Umm, the hybrids have proven to be just as environmentally damaging as petrol or
diesel.
Umm, so you know people will realise are beginning to realize people who Dr hybrids
are been beginning to realize that they still use as much flu fuel as the ever did.
So they're not being so.
Umm, but they were.
They probably were good in the early days of Ohh.
I'd like to go and metric, but I'm not sure of the charging, but I'll just go to hybrid which
is in the middle and and once they go to hybrid they think ohh yeah, you know this is
the whole electric charging thing.
It's not too bad.
I'll go fully electric and that's what a lot of people did.
So I suppose they weren't completely useless, so if they got someone, if there was a
little step from petrol to hybrid to electric, that was good.
They were all probably worth it for that, but now they're pretty much obsolete because
you know, most electric cars, even the small ones and and the more you know and less
284
expensive ones are have up to 400 kilometers range now with the moment.
So in Ireland especially, you know, the island's not very big. Umm.
Yeah, kind of lost me.
Trainer taught there.
What?
What was the question again? Umm.
Yeah.

Ohh never done.
You're Microsoft it and like.

Sorry, the question was are there any alternatives to battery electric vehicles which are
more suitable for transportation?
I738:25
Ohh yeah yeah yeah.
So the higher, higher hybrid has has run its course.
It's it's on the way out, thankfully.
Petrol diesel are on their way out, which is great environmentally and again the the
environmentalists are whoever is against.
Everything will say that.
Ohh well, you know we still use coal to make electricity to put into electric car, but you
know anyone with a bit of sense and a little bit of open mind would knows that
renewables like wind, solar and all that is going up and up and up everywhere, especially
in Ireland.
So like you know, in 10 years time, 80% of our electricity will be from you.
Renewable sources are fairly close to it.
It's that 40% at the moment.
So you know, they they electric cars will get cleaner and cleaner petrol, diesel cars just
285
get dirtier and dirtier.
Umm hydrogen had so far out that even if there was hydrogen cars ready to go in the
morning, and there were as good as petrol or diesel cars, and they're big massive range
of like 1000 kilometers which they claim which you know they can do, there's no
hydrogen stations, there's zero, you know?
So if you bought a hydrogen car in Ireland now, you'd you'd have to spend €1,000,000
or so having your own little personal hydrogen. Umm.
Station because there's nowhere there might be one.
Maybe I think there's one in Belfast or whatever, but like I'm living in Castle Bar, I'm not
going to go up to Belfast to recharge my hydrogen car, you know?
So and then you would have to change the whole structure you've put.
You'd have to turn every petrol diesel station into hydrogen station, so it's trillions,
trillions like it's just not even close.
Whereas it's simpler, it's already working like battery electric vehicles are already
working.
You know you can, if you're really, really, really stuck, like when I visit my mom.
My mom's in out in the middle of nowhere in the middle of offley like she does not
have a car charger, so I just stick the plug in through the window of the kitchen and
plug overnight, you know, and it'll get me an extra maybe 100 kilometers.
100 kilometers.
But you know, I just do that almost for fun because I know there's plenty of charging
out there, you know?
So you can't do that with hydrogen.
It's going to be so more like when people start driving electric to say all the odd time or
had to wait for someone to charge for half an hour last 1/2 an hour, but if they add up
all their charging over the year, they've never had to stop for a petrol.
Umm.
And all that, they've just had their the car charge like to do their mobile phone, you
know, every morning and it it becomes easier and it stops you getting the muffin and
the kind of coke and and all the rest.
When you go into the petrol station to pay for it, you know so it kind of I found that
286
good.
I've lowered my sugar consumption by driving electric because you know, I I just charge
at the thingy and you know, so yeah, that's present.
Yeah, I think I've I've run out of stuff to say there.

Alright, thank you so much.

Yeah.
Thank you so much.
So we are done with the questions.
Yeah, yeah.
I741:50
Alright, OK.

Yeah.
Yeah, but thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
We really appreciate it.
I741:58
Ohh, you're welcome.

Thank you.
I741:59
287
Yeah, I'm trying to.
Hopefully you'll have some help.

Yeah, I know.
It really was.
Thank you.
I9
Kevin
The first question here for you is how successful has the transition from internal combustion engine to
Evs been within your industry at large?
I9
so I wasn't quite sure how do you care about this question I suppose by my industry do you mean like
the financial sector or just like yeah yeah so I guess Mary yeah you're working in so and so I've been
working on the kind of decarbonization responsibilities and so I work on the sustainability team with EY
so we consult externally with clients and we help them with like their wider sustainability strategies um
and yeah kind of anything in between or coming under strategy so I've done some work on fleet
electrification with clients on and I think the transition is starting to take off and obviously a lot of it is
driven by regulatory pressures and as I'm sure you're all very well aware I'm under the climate action
plan the goal is to have like a million electric vehicles on the road by 2030 and Ireland is also very
ambitiously planning to ban the sale of ice vehicles well new ice vehicles from 2030 onwards and then I
think it'll be 2035 in Europe so I'm companies and lines are definitely aware of this incoming pressure
and it's and some are starting to try be like ahead of the curve and then also at the minute there's quite
a lot of monetary incentives still for electric vehicles and you can get grants and grants for home electric
vehicle charging then we're doing and I think even companies there's some SEAI grants as well so yeah I
think the transition is like starting to is really starting to take off yeah absolutely and then kind of
speaking about those ambitious goals by 2030 think of any problems with the transition or promotional
electric vehicles that come with like such an ambitious target absolutely I think the main issue is the
whole kind of which came first the chicken or the egg when it comes to charging infrastructure because
at the minute….
In Ireland so that would be like a lot of the main roadways and so that's like quite a strong registry yeah
it's interesting to talk about the idea of trying to get as many EV's on the road and there's like pressure
on infrastructure and that's something we kind of seem to be hearing a lot about is that trying to find
288
that trade off between and also making sure they're at this table comfortable and kind of trying to
balance that balancing act so that's quite interesting next fast and
Kevin our next question for you here where do you see value in reviewing the transition towards non
fossil fuels
I9
through the lens of the circular I mean it's there's definitely so much value in it and and it's obviously
really important before thinking with sustainability because once the most like sustainable solution in
the short term obviously might not be the most sustainable solution in the long term and so I think it is
really really important but there begins to be more focus on the circular economy especially when it
comes to electric vehicle market and as they're saying with like battery life and everything and you know
the minute there's no second hand electric vehicle market because obviously no one had actually vehicle
long enough that you know there's been time for second hand vehicle markets so and I think a little bit
of forward thinking in those areas is going to be really important just to make sure that we don't end up
with problem in the long run that we started with
Kevin
and what barriers or challenges do you anticipate scaling off renewable energy sources to meet the
growing demand charging EV's
I9
I think a massive fire your weapon coming across when we're looking into this development charging
infrastructure is great capacity has been a major issue for a lot of potential sites so I think the so
especially longs for example the kind of money or related actual road network and obviously it makes
the most sense to have high-powered charging so that would be like 150 kilowatts loss of trade and
plantations and and you know that would allow a lot of cars I think isn't it from like 20 to 80% you know
you could do it like 20 minutes or half hour and that's the most similar to what refueling an ice vehicle
would be like and I think for a lot of people that aren't as fast kind of looking they wanted to really
directly replace their ice vehicle and they don't want to risk average weight like an hour at a charging
station so I think so then the issue is there's a lot of sites especially along kind of the motorway network
or the road network and they're just not connected to the grid so in order to be able to install charging
infrastructure there like crazy amounts of money just to be connections like to USB bridge and first base
and that requires like any engineers come out and assess the size and then they need like underground
cables to like connect them
Kevin
so I think that's obviously a massive barrier to then adding like renewable energy into the mix yeah
absolutely and just even touching on the point you made about people not wanting to give up their ice
vehicles for the same time to charge the EV what measures are incentives do you think would encourage
consumers to actively participate in circular economy initiatives such as battery recycling or leasing
program
I9
289
I think mostly incentives are always gonna be the the best rated service people but I know for example
for there's a grant of minutes called the ESP SV grant so SPSP is the public service vehicle and so that's
like taxis and it's like horses and stuff like that but they have a grand to the minutes where they can trade
in their old ice vehicle and buy electric vehicle and they'll get exit it's quite significant ground I think it
was up to like 25 grand if they were if there is people was overthrown page and they were getting a
wheelchair accessible I and I think something similar could work very well then for the electric vehicle
market where and you know if you trade in your older battery or your older vehicle you then get a
subsidy for purchasing a new one
Kevin
and what role do you think research and development initiatives play in driving technological
advancements and innovation within the EV and renewable energy sectors
I9
so just take a look at it from the research perspective rather than the rule that like the consumer oh I
think it's going to be so great and say you know you do occasionally here like cool solutions of you know
guys the replaceable battery or cars that you can you know do all these things I don't know exactly but
and obviously that's all gonna come from research and I think obviously there's such a risk with stranded
assets so I think the example was in the Netherlands I think they were really ahead of the game when it
came to like two vehicles and they installed loads of what at the time was like their best charging
infrastructure but it was all quite slow charging infrastructure I think it was all like between like 20 and
50 kilowatts which would be quite slow charging and now that the technology has really progressives
they've they're kind of stuck with all these really slow charges so they don't have much use for obviously
they can go back and upgrade them and everything but I think that just goes to show like what an
important role continuing to innovate and we will have an electric vehicle markets
Kevin
yeah absolutely and even Speaking of innovation as well and the thing that seems to come up for us a
lot is the aspect of collaboration and kind of this idea of shared ownership rather than you know like
person personally owning vehicles and things like that so that's what you think about that will idea of
collaboration and the role that I play
I9
I think it's really important overall for decarbonizing transport I think it I think as we were saying earlier
there's a lot of ice vehicle owners who unwilling to transition at the minute to 19 people because they
don't want to give up convenience of their ice people and they think you know collaboration in that way
and vehicle sharing isn't going to incentivize them to transition unfortunately but I do think overall when
it comes to carbonizing transport I mean obviously the most sustainable form of travel is like actually
travel and then it's public transport and then it's electric vehicles and I think sometimes the conversation
around the actual market can you forget this I'm so I mean ideally in the future and you know and I know
it's part of the climate action plan as well to reduce Speech was travels per the amount of kilometers
travels per your vehicle is also going on the climate action plan so as well as transitioning to ice vehicles
it's also just reduced driving it in the first place and I think eventually it would be brilliant if we were all
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yeah we have these like vehicle sharing models I know we could kind of challenge this idea that everyone
is entitled to their own private vehicle and yeah absolutely and
Kevin
I think it's an interesting point to like bring up with those parts of the public transport system and maybe
that should be taking precedence over EV and then you kind of have that in combat with this whole idea
of trying to get so many EV's out there yeah are you like not a correlation between those two things so
that's kind of interesting and what strategies are measures do you think should be implemented to
promote the circular economy in the EV ecosystem
I9
I think definitely education is going to be really important for I suppose both manufacturers as well as
the consumer and probably more so education with consumer and raising awareness and I think also
there should be a requirement on manufacturers to have really really transparent reporting on you know
what will happen to your car and you trade back in and I'm like what measures they're taking to recycle
as much as possible
Kevin
yeah thank you and next question you have for you what role do you see governments and policymakers
playing in promoting deduction of circular economy practices within the EV market
I9
I think they should be taking really big role I mean as we were saying they've created all these really
ambitious targets and they're trying to maximize the amount of electric vehicles on Irish roads so I think
that they now have this responsibility to ensure that I'm again we're not just left in a worse position than
we started with if you have all these and you know kind of vehicles at the end that like need to be
recycled or causing lots of issues waste recycling and so I think they have a really big responsibility to
start introducing more circular practices and like I said like ensuring there's more transparent reporting
from manufacturers and from recycling units and raising awareness as well for the public
Kevin
yeah absolutely and like kind of taking a look at what the government can do and what consumers can
do and like researchers and they kind of come back comes back to the whole chicken and egg thing
about like where where's the start like where did that change start I'd love to know what you think like
who do you think is the most important player in terms of really getting the ball rolling
I9
that’s a good question and is this in terms of the transition to electric vehicles or in terms of the secular
economy yeah I think primarily I'm kind of interested in your thoughts on just the transition OK I think at
the minute it does come down to charging infrastructure and I think once you know when you pull into a
petrol station and they have three electric vehicle charging slots and you and people start to actually like
visually see that there is this infrastructure in place and that if they were to change maybe like they
know like there are loads of different places they can charge I think that's gonna make a massive
291
difference to the transition I know and I think a lot of studies show that the price is usually the primary
barriers transitioning but then after that it is like I said range anxiety and and as well as like battery
technology continues to improve and like ranges improve and but yeah I think it's is going to be the yeah
absolutely and and it's interesting to talk about the range anxiety and something actually that came up
in the previous conversation was maybe it's not really with charging anxiety which is kind of interesting
to think about it in that sense because it really is does come down to the charging infrastructure like no
one cares about necessarily traveling 400 kilometers in one goal it's not really bad yeah exactly but you
know
Kevin
that's brilliant Mary I don't know if you've any other follow up questions or anything yourself
I10
I11
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Nivedhan Senthil Kumar (Umail)
Ohh you started isn't.
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Ohh yeah, perfect yeah.
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Mary Kathleen O Brien (Umail)
Ohh I I said. Yeah, I'm just doing transcription cause it's like ohh we need really it's it's here.
0:0:6.90 --> 0:0:6.890

Um.
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Yeah, Okay that's working. OK. So I guess I'll start with the questions so.
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Ohh yeah.
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I11
So I just have a couple, just have a couple of questions. So the the reports for EY.
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I11
Okay.
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I11
Yep.
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Well, it's it's a dissertation, so it's for UMUCA University, College Cork and it's in collaboration with the Y.
So they probably won't. I'm not sure if they. Yeah, they'll, that's weird.
0:0:44.370 --> 0:0:44.940

Ohh yeah.
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I11
OK so so I know cause I was just it's just that you were saying about potential clients of and it's the
young and it's kind of knowing who you're talking to in some ways you know what it means. But from
the sounds of it, they don't have a specific client in mind.
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No, not yeah.
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I11
It's more that they're supporting the project.
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I11
That right?
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I11
OK.
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I11
Okay.
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Yeah, they kinda just say came up with the topic and we're just taking our. Yeah, OK, perfect. And if
there's questions that you like, can't answer whatever, that's fine. We'll just move on. And so the first
one is, is the circular economy of electric vehicles an area which is actively being discussed?
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I11
Yes, I think it's.
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I11
And yes, definitely like across the board. It's I I I studied circular economy myself a few years ago, and it's
funny at the time it was barely talked about. When I first started, but obviously now it's everything it's
it's talked about all the time.
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I11
Um, definitely. It's talked about on an international level in terms of automotive.
0:1:38.480 --> 0:2:0.560

I11
And obviously you've got sort of some of the the initial reports like the Ellen MacArthur Foundation
reports that did a lot with Renault, for example, but obviously a lot of the other manufacturers are also
working on circular economy initiatives. You look at still antis, I think, recently announced their big
circular economy hub. I think in Italy. So it's definitely been worked on an international level at a local
level.
0:2:0.640 --> 0:2:17.200

I11
You and I would say the circular economy discussion has come out of the waste sector, but obviously it's
not just a waste question. So obviously there's moves as well to kind of broaden it out of the waste field
as it should be because it needs to be about the whole economy and not just.
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I11
The West End.
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Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. So the next question is what role do you see governments and policymakers
playing in promoting the adoption of circular economy practises within the EV market?
0:2:38.30 --> 0:2:38.250

Yeah.
0:2:41.10 --> 0:2:41.820

Yeah.
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I11
Within the Evie market, um, I think that's a big question. I there's obviously a big role for them to play. I
think it's a tricky role because at the end of the day when you try and you're trying to sort of intervene in
an economy and you want to have regulation, for example, that.
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0:2:56.930 --> 0:3:10.590
I11
That pushes an economy into the right direction without trying to control it too much, because if you try
and control it too much, you stifle innovation. That will provide the answers for the circular economy. If
you see what I mean. So it's trying to get the results you want without dictating how they get their kind
of thing.
0:3:12.710 --> 0:3:15.310

I11
I also think there's a big question about where.
0:3:16.590 --> 0:3:25.400

I11
The government or regulator is in relation to the different parts of the supply chain or the different parts
of the production line. Obviously for electric vehicles here.
0:3:26.60 --> 0:3:28.640

I11
We don't have electric vehicle production in Ireland.
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I11
So there's limited impact. For example, the Irish Government can have on the production end.
0:3:34.920 --> 0:3:35.400

Yep.
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I11
It's more the use and waste end where they can have an impact. So it depends on which government.
0:3:42.150 --> 0:3:43.140

Yeah.
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I11
Which level of regulation?
0:3:44.430 --> 0:3:50.780

I11
And and as I said, which part of the chain is where? That's what makes it so challenging in some ways.
0:3:52.50 --> 0:3:53.130

Perfect. Thank you.
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So next one is how effective have current policies been in the adoption of electric vehicles?
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I11
Adoption. Um, we look at these we because of the nature of our organisation, we don't tend to look at
the adoption side. We look at the making sure the systems in place for the end of life side.
0:4:15.320 --> 0:4:16.710

OK. Yeah, sure.
0:4:19.980 --> 0:4:20.360

Hmm.
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I11
And so we're not really as involved in the adoption. Obviously you can, you know, just a personal
opinion you look at, you look at the way take up has gone.
0:4:27.830 --> 0:4:39.160

I11
You know, it is definitely increased significantly this year. There's obviously been changes been made to
the supporting incentives. For example, it D be interesting to see what impact that has longer term.
0:4:40.760 --> 0:4:56.270

Sure. Um, perfect. So the next one is how would you engage relevant stakeholders such as like EV
manufacturers, policymakers and consumers in intimate implementing a framework?
0:5:0.920 --> 0:5:8.130

I11
I be honest, it wouldn't be like do you mean that as a kind of conceptual question or ask for us as an
organisation?
0:5:9.180 --> 0:5:13.30

Um, I guess we're like a conceptual kind of maybe.
0:5:13.510 --> 0:5:14.380

I11
Um.
0:5:14.240 --> 0:5:14.540

Yeah.
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0:5:16.430 --> 0:5:22.700
I11
Ohh it once again it's it's quite complex I think in terms of what you can look at what's already
happening.
0:5:23.190 --> 0:5:36.390

I11
And you probably aware we've got battery regulations that were adopted yesterday, new battery
regulations which will govern the management of electric vehicle batteries. We are also expecting new
end of life vehicle regulations.
0:5:36.920 --> 0:6:0.160

I11
And we're expecting a first proposal within the next few weeks for that one. So that's obviously not a
final draught, but it will be a first proposal for discussion and that's at the European level. And that will
look at the end of life management, including of electric vehicles obviously cause they're gonna start
arising and end of life vehicles more and more, but it's also already imagine following the batteries
regulation, it will look at much more at the production end as well.
0:6:0.990 --> 0:6:1.300

Hmm.
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I11
And we know, for example, it's gonna. They're gonna work into that thing called the 3R Directive, which
is the reuse, Recycling recovery directive for vehicles, which is basically where vehicle manufacturers
have to kind of declare that their vehicle is 95 percent, 95% recyclable. It's what they do at the
production. And to prove that it can be recycled.
0:6:22.570 --> 0:6:22.970

Perfect.
0:6:23.30 --> 0:6:29.800

I11
Um, so that's kind of happening at the moment. Um, in terms of how you put in place a framework it is.
0:6:31.500 --> 0:6:38.190

I11
Once again, it's about create finding the leavers that work across the system. You're talking very
complex supply chains.
0:6:39.350 --> 0:6:49.600

I11
You know, we are here in Ireland, we are the receiver of those vehicles. We are not making them and
297
even if you go back to the countries that are making them there, then all connected into the supply
chains.
0:6:50.600 --> 0:7:11.50

I11
Going to the whole of the rest of the world, basically. So it's how do how do you create a framework
that triggers the right kind of behaviours. So I think it's probably looking at what levers you can find to
create the right change through regulation or through other incentives, but also looking at the barriers
because there are some things where it's like, well, that would be lovely, but that won't work here
because.
0:7:12.370 --> 0:7:15.710

I11
X won't allow it to happen, you know, so it's kind of looking at those.
0:7:17.680 --> 0:7:37.220

I11
Those kind of frameworks are looking at levers and barriers. Basically, I think that's what you've got to
do and you know, and also from a circular economy perspective, obviously a big part of that is looking at
it from a systems perspective. So looking at leavers and barriers, but making sure you're looking at it
from a system perspective because otherwise you end up having knock on effects rebound, those kind of
aspects that you're not expecting.
0:7:38.660 --> 0:7:39.750

Perfect. Thank you.
0:7:40.450 --> 0:7:40.930

Ohh.
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So next one is, um, our policy changes required at state level to accelerate things like battery swapping.
0:7:53.180 --> 0:7:56.710

Is that like a concept that you've come across or like battery leasing?
0:8:4.670 --> 0:8:5.540

Yeah.
0:7:56.90 --> 0:8:7.100

I11
It is, I think it battery swap outs I think is quite an interesting one because obviously you probably know
it was tried 1015 years ago and didn't work and now it's starting to go go again.
298
0:8:9.270 --> 0:8:18.670
I11
With anything like that? Um with Ireland it's it's a scale. We in economy of scale thing quite often can be
a limiting factor here.
0:8:29.970 --> 0:8:30.500

Yeah.
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In.
0:8:19.370 --> 0:8:36.330

I11
We don't have the volume to create the market to be. You know you're not actually in some ways it can
work because you can have a small market. So you can try something in a small market nicely, but other
times it works against you because you're not big enough to be for the whoever it is doing it to come in.
0:8:36.930 --> 0:8:37.620

I11
Um.
0:8:38.670 --> 0:8:42.490

I11
So sorry, the question was around incentives to help.
0:8:42.520 --> 0:8:51.210

Or um? Yeah. Or like our policy changes, like required at like state level or something like that to happen.
Or do you think it's not feasible?
0:8:52.650 --> 0:8:53.950

Ohh yeah sure that's fine.
0:8:55.0 --> 0:8:55.590

Ohh yeah.
0:8:49.920 --> 0:8:55.610

I11
I I'll be honest with you, it's not something I've looked at in terms of what, what the regulation is around
that, um.
0:8:59.170 --> 0:9:5.500

I11
299
Yeah, I I think there is obviously a lot of change happening around things like reuse and repurposing, for
example with the batteries regulation.
0:9:6.160 --> 0:9:6.520

Hmm.
0:9:6.450 --> 0:9:12.930

I11
And that obviously it's all coming down from European level, but it's that that's the purpose of it is to try
and formalise.
0:9:13.170 --> 0:9:19.860

I11
And you know, there's there's kind of like, there's a market there at the moment for reuse and
repurposing of Evie batteries.
0:9:20.940 --> 0:9:22.90

I11
But it's quite formal.
0:9:23.50 --> 0:9:51.20

I11
So they want to structure it more and I think that, you know, the idea is to create a structure that will
then, you know, batteries can be tracked, you can have new producers for those new batteries. You
know, it's basically creating that new framework to get rid of some of the barriers that are currently
there as to why people aren't jumping in to reuse and repurposing because they don't know. For
example, if you repurpose a battery electric vehicle battery into a house, are you the new producer for
that battery? Do you have end of life obligations on that battery at the moment?
0:9:52.0 --> 0:9:52.380

Hmm.
0:9:52.0 --> 0:9:55.830

I11
It's not clear, but with the new battery regulations that were adopted yesterday, it will be.
0:9:57.180 --> 0:9:58.430

Yeah, interesting.
0:9:57.430 --> 0:10:3.600

I11
So it's kind of it, it's kind of exploring those new industries where certainties needed.
300
0:10:4.510 --> 0:10:4.900
Hmm.
0:10:6.40 --> 0:10:6.750

Thank you.
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And the next one is, um, where do you see policy in the area of end of life batteries going in the future?
0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:18.760

I11
Um, the battery's regulation is.
0:10:19.20 --> 0:10:21.20

Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, you got.
0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:22.630

Yes.
0:10:20.80 --> 0:10:26.800

I11
Is what you need to look at on that one. I don't know whether you've had a look at. It is quite long, but
it yeah, as I said, it was adopted yesterday.
0:10:27.390 --> 0:10:28.360

Yeah. OK.
0:10:27.630 --> 0:10:45.30

I11
So that's the final text. Um, it's been being negotiated for at least two years. Um, so that will be. And
that then it will. Basically it'll be published I think in the European Journal probably this month will
possibly next month and then it will basically come into force next February.
0:10:46.670 --> 0:10:47.100

OK.
0:10:46.170 --> 0:10:49.220

I11
But that will be the framework for end of life electric vehicle batteries.
301
0:10:49.610 --> 0:10:50.830
Yeah. OK and.
0:10:54.350 --> 0:10:54.750

Hmm.
0:10:50.270 --> 0:11:3.130

I11
And because it's a regulation, so before we had a directive, the Batteries directive and then that's
transposed into regulation here, but because it's a regulation at European level, it will be a direct
translation, there will be less room for interpretation basically.
0:11:3.890 --> 0:11:4.210

Hmm.
0:11:4.820 --> 0:11:5.140

Connect.
0:11:6.410 --> 0:11:14.540

And then the last question is what are the challenges associated with end of life wait EV waste?
0:11:15.670 --> 0:11:20.310

So like when they come to their end of life, they kind of waste kind of management dispose of it.
0:11:21.290 --> 0:11:21.880

Yeah.
0:11:19.890 --> 0:11:23.360

I11
The waste management side of things um so um.
0:11:39.140 --> 0:11:39.540

Hmm.
0:11:24.530 --> 0:11:45.740

I11
Different there's different aspects. So, um, the batteries, obviously a big part of it. So one of the things
we do as an organisation we provide for the collection and recycling of the batteries. So that's one of the
batteries regulation. That's a producer obligation. We also provide training for authorised treatment
facilities. So these are the permitted scrap yards that have waste permits to accept end of life vehicles.
302
0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:54.390
I11
And that's around health and safety primarily. It's making sure you know, they know how to disconnect
the battery. They're using the right equipment, they're using the right tools.
0:11:55.130 --> 0:11:59.60

I11
The going about it in the right way. So we've been offering that training since 2018.
0:12:0.10 --> 0:12:0.320

Hmm.
0:12:0.20 --> 0:12:9.550

I11
And that's open to all. Later, the whole programme is called Electric House, which you probably seen on
our website and the that programmes available to all 80F in the country, they can access that for free.
0:12:10.650 --> 0:12:18.80

I11
So that's, you know, that's obviously was our initial concern was making sure that system was in place.
0:12:18.810 --> 0:12:19.150

Hmm.
0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:30.670

I11
For ETFs um, I think in terms of the rest of the vehicle, I think we're try, we're doing a project ourselves
at the moment on kind of the parts from electric vehicles.
0:12:47.80 --> 0:12:47.470

Ohh.
0:12:31.490 --> 0:12:49.660

I11
The halfway through as an EPA funded project, UM looking at the other parts outside of the battery,
looking at the battery, but also, you know looking at say the inverter and the electric motor sort of
looking at them from a reuse and recycling perspective is in sort of do they have a reuse value in terms
of selling the reuse and do they have a recycling value?
0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:56.80

I11
Um, so that's a project we're working at the moment because we think there's not a lot of information
out there yet.
303
0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.130
Yeah, I'm sure.
0:13:19.420 --> 0:13:20.500

Yeah, yeah.
0:12:56.990 --> 0:13:22.200

I11
On them in terms of what they made-up of, the other thing that we're conscious of. So as I said, we've
got battery's regulation just passed or just adopted. We've got ear, we regulation coming. So basically an
electric vehicle when it comes to end of life, it will come under the EELV regulations, but once the
battery is removed from that vehicle, the battery then comes under the battery regulations. That's kind
of how it works in terms of the split become a net electric vehicle battery.
0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.10

I11
And so.
0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:37.700

I11
In terms of a suppose what you're looking at the the first draught of the EO proposed draft of that you'll
be regulations have imagined would be very useful. And there's also the other thing we're looking at is
the critical Raw materials Act that's coming in as well.
0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:39.130

Hmm.
0:13:38.900 --> 0:13:43.230

I11
And that's about obviously making sure we don't lose the critical role materials that are in.
0:13:48.450 --> 0:13:49.260

Yeah.
0:13:44.60 --> 0:13:56.890

I11
Oh, oh, things. But for us, it's the ones that are in cars, basically. And so we think that might have a
reflection in the EU regulations and there might other be other parts, for example, that have to be
removed from the car before it goes for shredding.
0:13:57.780 --> 0:14:1.590

I11
To get to make sure that we're retrieving the critical materials.
304
0:14:2.430 --> 0:14:5.150
I11
From the different parts. So um.
0:14:5.900 --> 0:14:15.210

I11
In terms of what actually happens to a, to an, to an E LV, the process in terms of the waste management
and it's once again we're looking at it through the EPA project a little bit is.
0:14:15.290 --> 0:14:35.780

I11
Wait, I can't at the moment when it goes for the recycling has to be depolluted. So that's where all the
liquids are taken out. The lead acid starter batteries removed, the tyres are removed, catalytic converters
removed and we're looking at so how is it different from electric vehicle? Because obviously an electric
vehicle, there's liquids to come out.
0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:50.90

I11
Um, there's no we find. Yeah, there's no engine oil, obviously, cause there's no engine, but there is
coolant. There is gear oil, you know there's other liquids that have to be removed. So we're kind of trying
to get a better understanding of that because.
0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:58.60

I11
Obviously eights are going to need to know that in the future. Um, this very few arising at end of life at
the moment. So it's just building that knowledge.
0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:0.910

Perfect. Thank you.
0:15:2.260 --> 0:15:6.70

I think never. Under Kevin, do you have any other questions?
0:15:7.90 --> 0:15:8.320

Or are you good?
0:15:10.660 --> 0:15:13.100

Kevin Codd (Umail)
I'm okay anyway, I'm not sure about dividend.
0:15:13.380 --> 0:15:13.610

I.
305
0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:14.830
I am OK, yeah.
0:15:15.210 --> 0:15:20.800

Okay perfect. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us today. We really appreciate it.
0:15:27.20 --> 0:15:27.430

Hmm.
0:15:31.660 --> 0:15:32.780

Yeah, trailer.
0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:36.610

I11
No problem. I, as I said like I I would be looking at the the regulation that's coming is huge amount of
regulation that's coming in. It's come as the regulation itself is I suppose in some ways is playing catch up
because of the change we're dealing both on batteries and elv. We're doing the current regulations quite
old now.
0:15:37.340 --> 0:15:37.780

Hmm.
0:15:37.430 --> 0:15:42.520

I11
So a lot of the focus is updating both sets of regulation to account for electric vehicles.
0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:44.250

Yeah, for sure.
0:15:43.970 --> 0:15:44.370

I11
Yeah.
0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:45.830

Thank you so much.
0:15:45.990 --> 0:15:46.390

I11
Okay.
306
0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.350
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Brilliant. Thank you so much.
0:15:47.40 --> 0:15:48.0

Thank you.
0:15:47.390 --> 0:15:48.600

I11
No problem. Bye bye.
0:15:49.50 --> 0:15:49.520

Kevin Codd (Umail)
I know.
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I.
I12
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Is it OK if we start with the questions right away?
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I12
Yeah, sure.
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Ohh thank you. So I'll start with my first question which is our circular business models. A concept you
have come across.
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I12
Circular.
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Yeah, certainly again.
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I12
Yeah, yeah, I've. I've, as I said to Kevin, now I'm, I'm, I'm expert. But yeah, a little bit, yeah.
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OK.
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I12
So.
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If possible, could you please expand a bit on that? Maybe why do you think circular business models
should or should not exist or what are like the maybe pros or cons of this of circular business models?
General something on those?
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I12
Yes. So I guess you know it's about, you know, reducing waste. You know, reusing things as much as
possible.
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I12
Um, you know, can I just being more environmentally conscious?
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I12
And you know, finding ways to have longer life cycles of products, you know, become a lot less, I guess,
disposable in terms of how we deal with things, whether it's clothing, whether it's things like cars,
whether whatever it is that thing's gonna have a longer life, we have end up well, just reducing waste.
But also I suppose, you know, just kind of being a bit more environmentally conscious in terms of.
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I12
Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. And the second question is, can you explain what a circular business model
is and how it differs from traditional linear models?
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I12
And not really. And so again, I guess I said it's just.
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I12
You know the the it's, it's it's taking us. It was a cradle to grave.
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Jeremy Hayes
Approach to products so that when something comes to end of life for somebody that is much as that
product can be reused and you know rotted and dumped and gone to waste.
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I12
To obviously cut down on you know, the use of, you know, minerals and and and metals and all that kind
of stuff, but also to kind of just reduce stuff going to landfill I guess.
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Yeah.
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Ohh, thank you. So let's bring us to our third question, which is in your opinion, what are the key
challenges and opportunities in developing A framework that promotes sustainable practises?
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I12
Um.
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I12
Okay so like I'm just cultural change, you know? So, I mean, even if you take something like fashion, for
example, OK.
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I12
And you know, it used to be that, you know, people would get a pair of shoes. And, you know, when the
soil is worn out, they get them repaired by a cobbler and stuff like that. And, you know.
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I12
Number one, those people probably don't exist, or the harder to come by, but #2 is, you know, we kind
of want to have the latest fashions. We want to have things and, you know, kind of. And, you know, I see
it with my own daughter, like the kind of the pressure not to be shown in the same outfit twice and and
on social media and Instagram, you know, and that kind of stuff. It just leads to just loads of waste. And I
mean, you know, beyond things, I know you're talking about cars and stuff, whatever. But even Sophie
fashion just, you know, it's.
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I12
If you want to waste, you know that that we go on, you know we don't, you know, we buy things.
They're cheap.
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I12
And we tried them out, you know? And you know, it's just very, very intensive in terms of cotton, the
water that goes into growing that cotton, you know, the dies, all that kind of stuff, it'll take a huge.
0:3:31.0 --> 0:3:59.950

I12
Cultural change in people you know, to kind of, you know, to move away from that and becoming more
sustainable and they can know some of the kind of the even the the trainer companies now are starting
to kind of develop things that we kind of replace components and stuff like that and give a longer life
cycle if there's always where are you can you know get them fixed but you know people kind of want to
have new things you know and and it's in our culture and then you know I think you know as much as
electronic commerce is fantastic and all that kind of stuff.
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I12
The amount of just waste in in terms of packages, you know, I see them the the vans delivering
constantly, you know, um, flying from all over the world. It's just not sustainable going forward. You
know where the planet we’re in is crisis and we.
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I12
Are seemed to be getting worse rather than better in terms of how we manage it in terms of a
framework.
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I12
I tried to say it, I mean obviously.
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I12
It has to be a mix of things like tax. I guess you know like like the making goods more expensive, you
know, and and rewarding people for not consuming as much.
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I12
And but then that challenges are kind of fundamental.
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I12
And assumptions about economies as well, because you know, we're all geared into growth and
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increasing sales and you know and all that kind of stuff. And that's how our companies are judged to be
successful and.
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I12
And we're just destroying our planet, you know, for kind of a crazy growth model that, you know is is, is
gonna catch up with us sooner rather than later.
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I12
Um, I'm not sure if that answer the question.
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Yeah. Yeah, it did.
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I12
OKOK.
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And yeah, so the next question is what role does collaboration play in circular business models and how
do you engage with suppliers, customers and other stakeholders to create a closed loop system?
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I12
It's a little bit of my expertise now because like I'm not really engaged in a circular business models and
again, you know it's it's it's, it's a couple of things and.
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I12
It's it's creating incentives. I think you know and there was a very good model.
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I12
I'm trying to go to Saki, present at about what nearly 20 years ago now at A at a conference in Dublin
and what they were doing was they were taking old server racks. So say UC decides to upgrade the
servers and you know, rather than dumping those or even recycling those, these guys were actually
retrofitting them. And even though they might be fit for purpose for an organisation like UCC might have
high demands. They would actually kind of repackage them almost like refurbishing and iPhone kind of
model, right. And then sell them to people cheaper.
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I12
And they were partnering with you. Look, Packard and and and Dell and all these companies and
actually even putting their own badge on these servers or whatever. But, you know, it was a collaborative
311
model, but I don't have company last it you know and again, you know, I think stuff like phones is a good
example as well as you know kind of there are refurbished phones and the ability to do it. But even the
way that our networks kind of almost incentivised to upgrade every couple of years you know I mean I
have.
0:6:41.700 --> 0:6:53.910

I12
I said six or 7-8 phones like just in, in drawers. They're possibly, you know, like and the worst person to
be asking about, you know, reducing waste and stuff cause I'm shocking. And but, you know, like, it has
to be.
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I12
I suppose I kind of a mix between taxation and increase prices that these goods become, you know,
more incentivised for us as consumers to to recycle them and to reduce our waste.
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I12
And then for obviously the company's, but again you know like for the likes of Apple is very little
incentive for you know selling refurb phones and stuff because they want to sell new phones and they
want to grow their sales and all that kind of stuff. So as you said, you know the the the model of growth
that we used to measure success in economies just just isn't working for a planet that's dying basically.
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I12
OK.
I13
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Colin Steven Guimond (Umail)
A quick overview of the areas that interest you in the areas you've been working in. Just so I can kind of
have a better idea.
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I13
Yeah, no problem. Also at the Minutes I look after essentially the transport and smart networks areas
within SI that covers everything from electric vehicles to charge and policy charging infrastructure.
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I13
Uh, standards around after the where we can influence that as well.
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I13
Our transport side, we're starting to edge more into the mobility and immobility side of the House as
312
well, particularly with the comments and kind of this year. And then on the smart networks, I've taken
over that programme over the last few months, which is quite a substantial area, and I could probably
spend the whole hour trying to explain the remit of that area to you, but it's essentially how we can.
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I13
Electrify heat transport even more renewables on the system without having to invest substantially in
grid infrastructure upgrades. So it's essentially smart services.
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That's cool.
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I13
For the citizen, for the business, for the community, for the DSO, for the TSO, and how we can make
everything work together and talk together. So a lot of it will come down to standards and
communication protocols and how you can.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I13
Essentially have control of every electric device and appliance out there so you can actually balance the
grade when there is the the peak demand hits. You can just start turning people off and on, or if you
leave you chargers, you're looking at bidirectional flow. You can take power out, you can turn them off,
you can ramp them down, ramp them up. Whatever you need is and then the end game is really the
dynamic cream and green agile tariff to get to. So that's just a very short. Like I said, I could go into an
awful lot there, but.
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I13
I won't take up too much time to conceive a lot of questions, probably.
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I13
Yeah.
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We have a good few. We have a good few. I'm I'm some of these might not be exactly tailored to you
now that I hear a bit more of your experience, but if they if they don't apply just let me know and I can I
can shift and find another one. So just starting off this is kind of exactly based on what you were just
discussing. So how would you assess the current state of infrastructure development such as charging
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stations and grid capacity to support widespread Evie adoption? Are there any challenges and barriers
that you're noticing facing Ireland?
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I13
It it's it's it's very interesting question because you will see everybody will come out and say there's not
enough public charges. Now while I agree to a certain extent, I would also disagree with that as well
insofar as that you're gonna look at 80 to 90% of the charge, it's gonna be done at home.
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I13
It, particularly if you've asked 3 pack and even if you don't have off street parking, which is what people
will argue with as well, we need to use the public charging infrastructure network. Well, we also have a
multi unit dwelling grant programme in place where you can actually access up to 1890% funding to put
charge points in these multi unit dwellings and might have an underground car park or a few spaces here
and a few spaces there. So yeah, and if you combine that then with the alternative Fuels Infrastructure
Regulation and the requirements to develop.
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I13
Ireland's charging network across the 10T core Network Rd network the 10 T Comprehensive Network
and sends you national local roles within. I would imagine two to four years.
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I13
The whole issue and barrier around public charging networks should be completely removed, so I.
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It.
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I13
Even presently, I would argue you only need those charges given the technology in the battery
technology that's in DVD, that the Minutes you only need them when you're doing your long trips and
for that there is plenty there. But the real problem around the charging network is people not using it
correctly.
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Hmm.
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I13
And what could really open up that is a smart booking system. So they are smack you and system, which
I believe is here already, but it's just not widely integrated into the.
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I13
Platforms that are there at the moment.
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I13
Yeah.
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Sure, sure. OK. That's interesting. Yeah, we actually had somebody who said something not exactly like
that, but said to the kind of the same vein of the emphasis really falls on the consumer and it's at their
home charging. That's the primary area where that's happening. Infrastructure itself is the national
infrastructure itself is a bit secondary to the fact of charging at home. So yeah, that's really interesting.
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What role do you think research and development initiatives play in driving technological advancements
and innovation with an EV and renewable energy sectors?
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I13
I think it's massively significant because it's clear.
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I13
New Year's Day. To me that all these areas require innovation at the moment and how innovation works
is someone as an idea someone does. The theory behind us. That theory is put into practise and the
small level and then it's try you try to scale it up when you've proved your concept and that is monster.
See important for I would say right now immediately because if you're looking at where we're going even
if you look at the climate Action Plan 2023, there's actually one action that was put in there I think was
the last action that was put in there before it was released and that was for.
0:5:7.580 --> 0:5:27.380

I13
15 to 20% demand flexibility by 2025. Now that as a concept is huge and requires massive innovation.
So as you see lately there was a huge push and a huge reworking of the non domestic microgen scheme
to allow for solar to be placed on.
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I13
All the rooftops of commercial buildings around the country and that the big change in that was before
the change, the maximum you could access there was the six kilowatt system of solar. Now since they've
changed it, that's the minimum.
315
0:5:43.250 --> 0:5:43.540
Ohh.
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I13
And the maximum you can apply for his one MW system.
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I13
So that just shows what way they're looking, but it's not just put panels on put the panels on, put the
panels on, it's how you put the panels on, how you integrate that with the grid services around that. So
essentially you're not turning them off midway during the day because you don't have the man to use
them if they're all gonna probably have an export limiting device put on it as well because the grid, while
when it's trying to push the supply there, when there's a massive demand, it also can't just accept huge
amounts of energy all the time.
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I13
So there's a massive balancing piece there, so a lot will go towards self consumption, which is going out
probably rely on some form of storage and locations, smart inverters and kind of an IoT gateway device
that can essentially let the grade send signals in and receive signals out to say, stop generating electricity
or start using your own electricity or I need to pull it from you for the moment. So I'm gonna turn down
your your heating and gonna turn up, turn up your refrigeration for an hour. It's not gonna affect you.
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I13
Just before that I wanna save. Give your cooling something that minus 10.
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I13
The grid might say I'm gonna put that to my is 15. Then I'll switch it off for two hours.
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I13
And that will just gradually come up to say minus 8, so that won't have a detrimental effect.
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Hmm.
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I13
But then they switched back on and bring it back to 10 and it's actually bypass the peak demand with no
draw coming off it. But even if you're to specifically look at the V charging space, there's induction
charging wireless charging. These are huge things. There's also the whole on street charging piece for a
316
residential area. There needs to be a bit innovation and that you see the charge around that happens
there, there's actually.
0:7:27.440 --> 0:7:34.590

I13
And I eat them around that as well. That is of concern. Well, I wouldn't say concern, but it's probably
more of a a barrier. There's two ways.
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I13
Let me phrase that there's two legal ways you can put an EV charger arm in. One of them is you get a
declaration from your local county Councillor, City Council, that it is exempted development and the
second one is you get a declaration from your local council that it's you get full planning permission for
it.
0:7:54.590 --> 0:7:54.940

I13
Now.
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I13
I have heard of instances where local councils would give neither.
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I13
So you're stuck in no man's land, Bush. Legally, you need one or the other too progressive and.
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Sure.
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I13
The other thing you might see is people might take a little collie across the pathway. Again, can't do it
themselves. That's illegal. And that is a public space. And if you want to open a public space, you have to
have a special licence. I don't know. It's from the revenue or the local council. You have to get us to
actually open it and get. That requires allsorts of insurances as well. So you have to be very careful in
that space. But there's definitely some innovation there that could work like you look at the the kind of
code charging that happens in the UK, which is like your Airbnb.
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I13
With an EV charge points, they're going to try Latin Ireland soon. I don't know how successful it would
be. It's an interesting concept that may have a future.
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0:8:49.370 --> 0:8:51.160
I13
It would need to be trialled to see what.
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Sure.
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I13
Barriers are like issues might come out of it, but it's definitely an an Ave work going down, and then
there's the whole pentagraph solutions for the heavier goods vehicles like your.
0:9:4.150 --> 0:9:15.450

I13
Bosses that are going around the seriously do they just need a quick dash and hit into the say the Lewis
lines around they get a shot of a huge amount of power and then they go around again till they
crossover and Lewis line again.
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I13
So I'm just gonna talk and potential innovations and ideas that could actually work.
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I13
Hmm.
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I13
Yeah.
0:9:22.490 --> 0:9:53.640

Ohh no for sure. Yeah like that was one of the things I was initially for this project interested in like the
heavy duty vehicle side of it because there's a whole bunch of innovation needs to happen because it
doesn't battery electric vehicles don't necessarily lend themselves well to the heavier, heavier duty
making anything like any long haul trucking and buses and everything. So one of the things was like yes
smart charging like on the roadway. So you have certain roadways that charges the car as it drives along.
But then the application of that and standardisation and all those things.
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Between vehicles would would cause some concern, but yeah, so interesting.
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Wow.
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0:10:2.770 --> 0:10:3.270
That's cool.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I13
That there's a couple of miles of electrified roads, they call it as well, but what could be a big game
changer for that space is the charging solution as a battery stuck to it as well.
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Hmm.
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I13
So you're you might only need a great connection of 20.
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I13
Kilowatts, but you can actually power a vehicle at 100 kilowatts, provided the battery has been filling up
in the mean time.
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That makes sense.
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I13
So that that, yeah, that is kind of an interesting one, but.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I13
I actually feel the future of heavy goods vehicles is fully electric. I I think that's where it is gonna go in
particularly if you look at the moves that have been made in the European level to actually.
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I13
Challenge and and she change the homologation standards that are out there for these types of vehicles
too loud and to be longer to load them, to be heavier if they are fully electric. So.
319
0:10:54.970 --> 0:11:6.980
I13
You're not losing out in your payload, your cargo carrying capacity just put in extra batteries. You can fire
them all in there. You can have everything operated to the right weights and then you have a very
robust.
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Sure.
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I13
Its drive train that will actually bring them where they need, but you have to think on the other side of
it. The tachograph piece that goes with us, if you're driving a truck, you're only gonna drive 4 hours,
maximum four, you're required to take a break. So if you have an intelligent system that will plan your
route, where close enough to every four hours yourself and out of charge points.
0:11:29.100 --> 0:11:42.550

I13
You've not. There's no issue with that. And then if you look at the alternative Fuels Infrastructure
Regulation as well, that's actually forcing A mandating, not just telling, it's actually mandating legal
requirements for all European Union members to have.
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I13
Specific stand alone HGV charging equipment along the 10T network. Every hundred, 100 or 120
kilometres of can't remember which one.
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Ohh.
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I13
Yeah.
0:12:2.750 --> 0:12:3.160

I13
Yeah.
0:11:54.540 --> 0:12:12.740

That's that's. That's awesome. Actually, I didn't know. I didn't know a lot of that. So that's that's really
cool. Yeah. Initially I went into the hydrogen fuel cell route for that cause. That was what I I saw as being
the future of the UK as has gone pretty heavily into that. They're investing some money into into that
infrastructure. So yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah.
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0:12:17.870 --> 0:12:18.270
Yeah.
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Sure.
0:12:12.230 --> 0:12:26.960

I13
Yeah, and personal opinion now just putting Bannon records hiding in this. No, go for me for transport. I
don't see a future where they don't see a future sport and heating either. I probably only see potential
for it in air travel is the only option cause.
0:12:37.220 --> 0:12:37.520

Right.
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I13
Even if it is green hydrogen that you're getting, what? When you put your foot on the accelerator, you
might be lucky to get 30% for what you're after, generating the last of efficiencies. Absolutely cruel.
0:12:39.970 --> 0:12:43.950

Takes too much energy to make it right, so it's just cost intensive to do that so.
0:13:2.430 --> 0:13:2.910

Yeah.
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I13
Too much energy to make it to transport to storage to get it, then throw it into vehicle and all the losses
that you'll lose about 70% from safe. You're talking offshore wind generation by the time you get it from
there to a place where you can use in a vehicle, you've lost 70% of what you've generated. And that's to
me, that's just absolutely crazy.
0:13:4.710 --> 0:13:10.810

Yeah, it has to be some crazy innovation in that space to make that viable. It seems like, yeah.
0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:14.220

Yeah, yeah, for sure.
0:13:9.260 --> 0:13:19.300

I13
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Yeah. Yeah, at the moment. And the expense of it as well. And the fact that it's it's something like 2 to
5% of all hydrogen generated in the world is green, the rest isn't.
0:13:20.180 --> 0:13:21.690

Ohh yeah, it's pretty far.
0:13:24.430 --> 0:13:24.850

Yeah.
0:13:28.810 --> 0:13:29.90

Sure.
0:13:21.420 --> 0:13:35.170

I13
Yeah. Yeah. So there's that's it's a pet peeve of mine, the way people just jump at it. But even in the UK,
the place where they're looking at putting these generation stations and feeding it into the heating as
well.
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Sure.
0:13:36.110 --> 0:13:47.20

I13
They're not getting anywhere cause all the the local neighbourhoods, all the local people, are saying, no,
don't put it here, don't bring it here. We don't want. It's not right. It's what all the experts are saying. It's
just it doesn't have an application.
0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:48.110

Right.
0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:49.590

I13
Yeah.
0:13:48.900 --> 0:13:53.710

Yeah, that's funny. It's yeah. Well, I guess they have want to see how that, how that plays out. That'll be.
That'll be interesting.
0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:54.50

I13
Yeah.
322
0:13:55.30 --> 0:13:58.880
OK, so I'll skip one of these questions cause I think you kind of touched on it.
0:13:59.350 --> 0:13:59.780

Um.
0:13:59.400 --> 0:13:59.860

I13
OK.
0:14:2.310 --> 0:14:13.540

So would you think I'm? I'm guessing your answer is gonna be yes. Or Evie's especially specifically
battery electric vehicles. A sustainable solution for transportation going forward there. Yeah.
0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:45.630

I13
They are asked sustainable solution. They're not the sustainable solution is probably the way I would put
it. This sustainable solution is reducing single occupancy carriage ironies. It's the avoid shift improved
mantra really first after you need to make the journey second-half. Can I shift the mode of it and turn off.
If I really do need to make the journey make an electric journey and it's simpler. It's the combination of
reducing congestion reducing the number of vehicles on the road with if there are vehicles on the road
they need to be electric.
0:14:46.170 --> 0:15:15.720

I13
And that ties in with it needs to be 100% renewably generated electricity. The powers them as well. So
we're moving towards that, but we're not there. So it's to find the balance for the government's is read
the really hard point between reducing journeys and switching to electric cause if you you can't throw
money in one or the other. We started with the electric now removed into somewhere in the middle
where we're going to try and reduce journeys and we're going to try and while keeping that momentum
in the electric market going as well.
0:15:16.660 --> 0:15:16.920

Sure.
0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:25.80

I13
So it's it's more about moving towards this, but some people might kind electromobility I think more of
mobility is the service model.
323
0:15:26.390 --> 0:15:27.200
Hmm.
0:15:26.330 --> 0:15:40.530

I13
And it's even to look at taking it a step further. When we finally breached the autonomous driving the
bachelor at the minute and getting it to that, it's actually a subscription service. You no longer own
vehicles.
0:15:41.370 --> 0:15:41.900

Hmm.
0:15:41.410 --> 0:15:47.620

I13
It's a subscription service you put in your needs for the month card comes, picks you up, drops you and
goes off and does another thing because.
0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:56.300

I13
A car is one of the most underutilised assets that there is that you could ever think of. It's maybe 8090%
of times, essentially packed.
0:15:58.0 --> 0:15:58.460

I13
Yeah.
0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:5.830

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And when you factor in how much it depreciates as soon as it leaves the lot, yeah,
you losing a lot of a lot of value out of the vehicle right away, yeah.
0:16:4.60 --> 0:16:11.650

I13
Yeah, and kind of what I I've been trying to push lately is to rethink how we look at vehicles that they
actually have.
0:16:12.610 --> 0:16:27.940

I13
Tree ways they can be looked at. One is your standard vehicle, but I want people to stop looking at it like
that. Stop looking at isn't it's a transport asset because if you have an electric vehicle, yeah, you're going
around springing here, then everywhere. But if you plug it into charge point, that's battery storage
device.
0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:34.390

I13
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If you plug it into a bidirectional vehicle to grid Charter, that's actually a power generation device as
well.
0:16:35.140 --> 0:16:42.590

I13
So it's got it opens every gateway like the future of transport is opened by electric vehicles.
0:16:48.650 --> 0:16:49.0

I13
Hmm.
0:17:5.620 --> 0:17:6.20

I13
Yeah.
0:16:43.780 --> 0:17:9.740

Yeah, it's awesome how to say. And that's one of the things I was looking at. It was rivian or something
where the electric vehicle companies and they they have a new like camper version of their truck out. I
think it's probably not new now, but I thought that was so cool too because if you can have a like you
don't have to be hooked up to a campsite that has electric for, you can just drive it anywhere and you set
it up and you have all the energy you need to cook and do everything you want. It's kind of, yeah, it's
way cool. Opens up so many opportunities for sure.
0:17:9.70 --> 0:17:11.480

I13
Yeah, that's the vehicle to load piece on it.
0:17:12.140 --> 0:17:13.780

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's so cool.
0:17:15.100 --> 0:17:16.30

OK.
0:17:19.540 --> 0:17:19.990

I13
Okay.
0:17:17.120 --> 0:17:29.420

I guess, yeah. You kind of already answered this, but I'll ask it more specifically just to get, are there any
alternatives to battery electric vehicles which are well positioned to make for more sustainable
transportation, better than better electric vehicles?
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0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.110
I13
Are you talking vehicle specific?
0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:49.120

Ohh I in this context, yes, cause we're kind of, yeah, the whole lilt is transitioned from fossil fuel
transportation to something else. So we just wanted to ask this question just to make sure there's
nothing else because we've talked about hydrogen fuel cell and other alternatives. But yeah, if there's
anything.
0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:56.760

Hmm.
0:17:48.800 --> 0:18:12.110

I13
Yeah, I I don't at the moment. I do feel you could nearly split actually electric into two categories
though, and that depends on the carbon intensity factor on the grades of each country that you're
talking about. So you could have somewhere like Poland, it's very cold based or you could have
somewhere like Iceland that's 100% renewable. To me, they're nearly two separate vehicles as well.
0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:14.570

That's interesting.
0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.440

I13
Even though they're the exact same vehicle, they're two different effects.
0:18:20.930 --> 0:18:21.310

I13
Yeah.
0:18:29.230 --> 0:18:29.610

I13
Yeah.
0:18:33.210 --> 0:18:34.900

I13
Massive, yeah.
0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:40.200

I13
Yeah.
326
0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:42.900
The carbon effect from those vehicles is so different that it's worth. Yeah. That's fascinating, actually.
Yeah. Cause we one of the things we were initially talking about Norway and how Ireland could kind of
like replicate what Norway is doing. But we kind of realised going in that, you know, there's different
circumstances that have led to their success in Norway than what we have here. So it's important to
understand all of the dimensions and not just say, hey, we're just gonna copy Norway because that
doesn't really the dog doesn't bark, doesn't make sense.
0:18:41.110 --> 0:18:45.880

I13
No, it it doesn't quite fly. Even if you try it, it probably won't work here.
0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.20

Right, right. Yeah, exactly.
0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:53.350

I13
Yeah. And like the only other potential futuristic technology you'd look at is air taxis.
0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:54.960

Hmm.
0:18:56.460 --> 0:18:56.870

I13
So.
0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.300

I don't think. I don't think I know about air taxis.
0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:8.300

I13
Ohh yeah, Airbus have trailed one I think. Tried it, just simply get in one working. It's essentially large
scale drone that had seats.
0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:21.920

I13
Yeah.
0:19:24.410 --> 0:19:24.730

I13
Yep.
327
0:19:32.810 --> 0:19:33.230
I13
Yeah.
0:19:9.500 --> 0:19:39.890

Ohh. Interesting. No that that's cool. I just actually I was listening to podcasts the other day and they
they discussed a one of the first iterations of a flying car which is I thought was fascinating. It's actually
being built and there's a prototype for it and everything and gets only goes 25 miles an hour. And when
on the ground. But obviously the whole point, it would just be getting to an area where it can take off
kind of thing and then fly. But yeah, just I can't imagine that that's gonna be worth it. I think the starting
cost is like 350,000. So it's more of like a play toy.
0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.670

Or the ultra rich rather than like a regular consumable for people.
0:19:41.220 --> 0:19:45.130

I13 Ohh yeah, like like a supercar hypercar.
0:19:46.460 --> 0:19:46.860

I13
Yeah.
0:19:45.430 --> 0:19:49.570

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be a trendy, fun thing, but yeah.
0:19:51.20 --> 0:19:58.290

Let me see. Yeah, cause we've gone a bunch of this is the circular economy of electric vehicles, an area
which is actively discussed.
0:20:0.240 --> 0:20:11.670

I13
It is to a certain degree it probably needs to be discussed a lot more needs to be investigated a lot more
and it, I don't know, is it more the vehicles, but rather the battery.
0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:12.850

Hmm.
0:20:12.980 --> 0:20:43.210

I13
Circular economy is where it needs to go like I know what hes they're doing great things in the US
around this and there's actually been a factory opened up close to one of their production facilities that
will take in all batteries, strip it down for all the different individual elements of it and shape the back to
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the front end of the production line for them. So it will come in time and I always from people ask me, I
always point them straight to the lead acid battery as the best comparison to it. When that came out this
terrible circular economy.
0:20:51.980 --> 0:20:52.320

Yeah.
0:21:2.400 --> 0:21:2.850

Yeah.
0:20:43.280 --> 0:21:7.770

I13
1st but over the years they've worked very hard on it and it's now 99% for circular economy and that 12
Volt lead acid battery in your car. It'll take time. EVs themselves or an emerging technology, let alone the
capture and recapture of the elements within a battery chemistry as well. But then you also have to look
at the second life aspect of it that you could probably say there's a factor of 10.
0:21:8.750 --> 0:21:39.480

I13
Between what a home storage device and a vehicle battery can do, so it's 10 times more capacity is
needed in the vehicle than in a house. So when the pass is below that 7080%, whatever people feel like
is enough. You could actually remove those batteries in your use them as battery storage device in
commercial settings, domestic settings tests that I think our well are looking at something like that but it
is interesting and that is going to gain a lot of momentum.
0:21:45.310 --> 0:21:45.610

Hmm.
0:21:40.70 --> 0:21:47.900

I13
At the moment I feel that it that's probably the low hanging fruit and that side rather than the circular
economy of recapturing elements at the moment.
0:21:55.310 --> 0:21:55.630

I13
Yeah.
0:22:13.250 --> 0:22:13.610

I13
Yeah.
0:21:48.940 --> 0:22:18.610

Right, right. So the secondary life of batteries is that's one of the major areas that we've been
329
discussing. That was one of our primary areas and our research for sure, which I guess is, yeah, like the
our primary circular economy idea was around facilitated around secondary use of batteries. But the
idea of of everything, the design principles of everything being able to be more circular would be kind of
the ideal situation. But the most value capture like half of the cars, something is the battery, right. So it
makes sense too.
0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:19.970

I13
Yeah.
0:22:18.950 --> 0:22:22.320

Yeah. At least take square away that bit. Then you're you're you're golden.
0:22:21.350 --> 0:22:24.990

I13
Ohh definitely it's not the easiest, but it's it can be done.
0:22:25.820 --> 0:22:27.440

0:22:28.130 --> 0:22:31.640

At the door just one second here, there's a few more questions.
0:22:30.910 --> 0:22:32.240

I13
Yeah, no problem at all.
0:22:32.790 --> 0:22:33.100

Yeah.
0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.20

So our part of the circular economy just kind of going off of what we said.
0:22:49.140 --> 0:22:49.450

Prendergast Shane
OK.
0:22:43.660 --> 0:23:2.670

We're we're trying to generate a a framework, so to speak, to help actors in the space to fit in and figure
out where they can get value out of circular economy. So what like key elements or components would
you include in a circular economy framework so that we could help clients and generate value and and
be more sustainable?
330
0:23:3.680 --> 0:23:17.80
I13
Well, you have to first thing in Italy was look at every element of the battery. How can it be handled?
How can it be extracted from the bad different battery technologies like you with the blade type back
your battery pack that is proven to be.
0:23:17.850 --> 0:23:48.360

I13
How did the big one that's going to go forward with like BYD are there tests are moving towards this
blade shaped kind of set up within it. So it's trying to understand well what materials are in it. Like you've
lithium ion, lithium iron phosphate, they're the big ones at the moment. How do you extract that the
older batteries, the cobalt and nickel, how do you extract them because they're actually have big mining
concerns, particularly cobalt as well. So if you can reuse what you've taken out of the ground, it it will
reduce that.
0:23:48.460 --> 0:23:56.420

I13
The mind on child labour essentially in all these ethical concerns around the mining, but you also realise
some of these materials are hazardous.
0:24:8.40 --> 0:24:8.360

Yeah.
0:23:57.90 --> 0:24:11.40

I13
People are going to need training is gonna be a lot of training and upskilling around the that as well.
That needs to be there. So maybe that's something that needs to be the first port of call is train people
how to do it, train people, how to use it, how to handle these elements as well.
0:24:13.100 --> 0:24:17.250

I13
Then for a kind of looking at second life, I would definitely think connection points.
0:24:18.650 --> 0:24:43.230

I13
How do you disconnect or disconnect the battery from the car and what does that connection point
then mean? If you wanna install it into a building, how does that translate? Is there an adapter? Does
that need to be removed and put on it? How do you ensure that you have discharged that battery before
someone's working on it? What's the electrical safety concerns within the where does it fit into the
building regulations? Is there?
0:24:43.970 --> 0:24:47.240

I13
Set what happens to the warranty if you've taken.
331
0:24:56.380 --> 0:24:56.700
Hmm.
0:25:5.340 --> 0:25:5.960

Yeah, yeah.
0:24:48.130 --> 0:25:8.300

I13
Battery out of a car before that's finished and you put it into hell was, I presume it's just null and void,
but there's a few legal sites to it as well that would need to be pursued like I could probably think of the
handful more as well if I was to sit here and kind of bash it out with yourselves, you know that kind of
way. But there the big ones to jump to mine straight away.
0:25:9.950 --> 0:25:10.330

I13
And.
0:25:9.190 --> 0:25:10.980

For sure. No, absolutely.
0:25:11.450 --> 0:25:15.710

I13
Look at the kind of physical footprint of batteries. Well, how does that fit into a building?
0:25:17.250 --> 0:25:17.520

Hmm.
0:25:27.230 --> 0:25:27.670

I13
Yeah.
0:25:35.150 --> 0:25:35.600

I13
No.
0:25:18.510 --> 0:25:49.220

Yeah. No, for sure. That's one of the things we discussed for a while. We discussed like, you know,
battery leasing and battery swapping kind of ran into a brick wall of that's not really gonna fly for electric
vehicles. It's to the too heavy. And it doesn't really business model wise, doesn't really doesn't really
square away but like yeah, on that angle of it though, we were talking about standardisation of batteries
and how we could find it. So that you know when end of life you don't have to have all these different
considerations for different kinds of batteries. You have the mall.
332
0:25:49.420 --> 0:25:53.630
If it's more standardised, it'll be much easier to off, you know.
0:25:54.910 --> 0:25:56.50

Use, yeah.
0:26:4.120 --> 0:26:4.390

Yeah.
0:25:54.650 --> 0:26:4.920

I13
It comes comes with massive problems as well, in that you'll have to convince manufacturers to
essentially open source their intellectual property that they could make an absolute killing off of.
0:26:5.620 --> 0:26:18.170

Yeah. And I think, yeah, I mean, I think Tesla's hasn't. They think they've done that in the US, maybe with
their charging plug in charging. I think they're trying to become the standard or they are the standard
now I can't remember exactly what I read.
0:26:22.120 --> 0:26:22.520

Yeah.
0:26:37.690 --> 0:26:37.980

Right.
0:26:16.710 --> 0:26:46.760

I13
In north to north of America, I wouldn't say they're trying to become the standard. I would think
forward and another company, Volvo, have decided only in the night US they're going to use the Tesla
connection on their vehicles instead of the standard CCS. But CCS will be all around the rest of the world.
There is another item coming from a for around the actual standardisation of charge points that might
put test and a little bit.
0:26:47.0 --> 0:26:48.130

I13
Of grey area.
0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:49.990

Yeah, yeah.
333
0:26:50.700 --> 0:26:51.590
Yeah, it's resting.
0:26:49.740 --> 0:26:53.350

I13
Yeah, but that it would be remiss of me to discuss that one.
0:26:54.100 --> 0:26:54.730

Sure.
0:26:56.270 --> 0:26:57.200

Fair enough. Fair enough.
0:26:58.900 --> 0:26:59.910

Let me see.
0:27:3.830 --> 0:27:12.840

I guess, yeah. Where do you see Ireland at, say, 10 years from now in terms of success or otherwise in
the transition from fossil fuels?
0:27:13.300 --> 0:27:30.490

I13
Yeah, like this. You're probably still looking at 30-40 years, maybe more of still having fossil fuel vehicles
under all the simple as that because even if you get 100% of new sales being fully electric still to wash
out, what's there a second hand markets, people can't afford. Most people can't afford to buy a new car.
0:27:31.300 --> 0:27:31.580

Right.
0:27:31.110 --> 0:27:50.610

I13
And the second hand market is completely over inflated at the moment. So if you guys talk now and
they said told me they were buying a second hand car, I would call him absolutely crazy cause they'd be a
point of time the next 1218 months where you're acid is much is going to drop 510 grand in value for no
reason. Literally no reason other new bought at the wrong time.
0:27:51.650 --> 0:27:51.790

Ohh.
334
0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:52.40
I13
And.
0:27:53.170 --> 0:27:57.210

I13
Yeah, like if you're looking at climate action plan targets, they're very ambitious.
0:27:57.890 --> 0:27:59.70

I13
They're not impossible.
0:27:59.900 --> 0:28:6.600

I13
Improbable is probably the world at the minute we will go relatively close. I would imagine like the
midpoint.
0:28:20.640 --> 0:28:21.10

Yeah.
0:28:7.270 --> 0:28:37.180

I13
Yeah, I have the day of the day care, 2025. There's a target. I think it's 195,000 on the road that will be
achieved. I don't see how it cannot be achieved by iron and other global disaster happening or
something to that effect. We're on track to hit that, but it's from 2025 to 2030. It's that exponential mass
market adoption piece that we need to get to, which is going to essentially mean 100% new sales from
pretty much 20252026 need to be fully electric.
0:28:37.740 --> 0:28:38.50

Right.
0:28:37.380 --> 0:28:49.830

I13
Which brings its own concerns as well with it that Ireland is a very small player in the motor industry
where right hand drive, which means we've only access to 5% of the world's vehicles.
0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:52.100

Ohh yeah.
0:28:51.350 --> 0:29:24.540

I13
But also one of the smallest markets in the world when it comes to vehicle sales. On average, you're
looking at 100 to 120,000 new vehicles a year. We have one of the worst tax landscapes in Europe when
it comes from thinking from a manufacturer's point of view, because they send a card to Ireland, they
335
will make less profit than if they send it to somewhere in mainland Europe because of our tax landscape.
So that makes it difficult for your Nissan, Ireland's BMW Ireland's whoever they are, to go with their
global guide to, say, give me as many views as you possibly can.
0:29:24.660 --> 0:29:54.490

I13
They're like, well, I will codes or could send them there. I'm gonna make more money per car as well.
And then you have to look at the actual geographic of date of our course as well. Because most shapes
that bring vehicles here, they need a very deep port. And I believe there's only two of those in Ireland as
well. And there is always delays in booking slots in that to unload their cargo. So you could have a ship
sitting off the course for a couple of days with vehicles that just can't get on as well.
0:29:55.770 --> 0:29:56.410

Yeah.
0:30:8.660 --> 0:30:8.960

Yeah.
0:29:55.340 --> 0:30:27.10

I13
So that there is there's a lot like, but I'm yeah, look, the future is going to be electric regardless of
whether it's today, tomorrow, we're 10 years down the line. There's no beating around the Bush about
that. That's where it's going. If you're as the decade goes on, when you're if you're to buy petrol in these
vehicles, you're essentially born in your money straight away because there's going to be no resale value.
And if the will, you will get money first. Don't get me wrong, but that residual value compared to what it
is now or even five years ago is gonna be miniscule.
0:30:27.90 --> 0:30:40.720

I13
The best and it's the future is going to be more multi modal. It's gonna be active. It's gonna be public
transport. It's gonna be electric transport. It's gonna be moving towards those mobility hubs solutions.
0:30:41.950 --> 0:30:54.710

I13
As well, they need to be trialled to figure out what will work and what won't work with them. I think
there will be a great solution if we can try them and see what will work and what won't work cause that
whole pick and drop back parts that people may not like.
0:30:55.650 --> 0:30:56.0

Hmm.
0:30:55.450 --> 0:31:16.680

I13
If you you look even if you look at the bikes in Dublin, you bleep the bike where you can just leave and
336
you've Dublin bikes that used to bring to certain places, but you also within Dublin bikes you have a
couple of trucks that's very in Dublin, bikes around the city itself because it's over. After the morning
everyone's in the city centre and they need to repopulate the external ones as well. So.
0:31:16.580 --> 0:31:18.830

Right, right. Yeah. It's not the most.
0:31:17.730 --> 0:31:19.320

I13
There is drawbacks.
0:31:25.190 --> 0:31:25.660

I13
Yeah.
0:31:19.950 --> 0:31:27.220

Yeah, I was gonna say it's not the most like the most simple solution for that. Like it feels like there
should be something. Yeah, yeah.
0:31:26.370 --> 0:31:36.560

I13
But the the the must be some solution to figure that out, but so that's why it needs to be a few trials
which ties nicely back into the kind of academia and research piece.
0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:37.740

Yeah.
0:31:37.390 --> 0:31:45.360

I13
That can drive trials, pilots testing out different theories, and then they can go in and actually they that
can be the future as well.
0:31:46.0 --> 0:31:46.770

Implemented.
0:31:49.790 --> 0:31:50.110

Yeah.
0:31:46.40 --> 0:32:1.820

I13
So it it it all kind of ties together where you actually try something? Something's not working. Then you
need to go get the theory done. You need the academia. You need the research to be done to say, well,
what will work in here and whether it's behavioural or whether it's innovation or a combination of both.
337
0:32:2.680 --> 0:32:7.890
I13
Research has to be done before you can implement something. You had to pick an idea and run with it.
Maybe you could.
0:32:14.950 --> 0:32:15.500

Yeah.
0:32:8.670 --> 0:32:15.840

I13
And you could get very, very lucky. Or you could be completely disproved and people like, well, why you
spend the money like that for? That's a waste of public funds.
0:32:18.510 --> 0:32:18.850

I13
Yeah.
0:32:16.630 --> 0:32:25.510

It's a lot of time, but the money. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mindful of time. Shane. I know it's it's 1233. So
I don't wanna hold you too long. If if you have anywhere else to be.
0:32:25.350 --> 0:32:28.480

I13
Yeah. No. So, yeah, have a bit more time to see if anymore questions or.
0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:36.950

I I think we have maybe a couple more announce my team mates here. If there's anything that they're
thinking if they wanna compile a couple more questions here cause I don't have a a few more left.
0:32:42.750 --> 0:32:43.180

I13
OK.
0:32:38.910 --> 0:32:43.660

Let me see. So this is a bit more in the secondary use of batteries, so let's see.
0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:44.950

Up.
0:32:45.50 --> 0:32:45.460

But but.
338
0:32:45.740 --> 0:32:46.280
Ohh.
0:33:3.260 --> 0:33:3.880

I13
Yeah.
0:32:47.400 --> 0:33:5.940

Are there any regulatory or policy barriers that hinder the widespread utilisation of secondary use
batteries or secondary life batteries? I know we kind of discussed this because it was, you know, the
secondary battery angle of it, like the difficulties of designing them and standardisation, all those things.
But yeah, do you know if there's any regulatory policy barriers?
0:33:6.900 --> 0:33:28.210

I13
Barriers not. There's nothing coming to mind because when you really think about it, a secondary life
battery, it's not a broken, it's not. There's nothing wrong with it. It just can't function at a high enough
capacity to give a vehicle, arrange that someone wants. Yeah, you'll probably want to investigate the Irish
wearing rules. I just one 01/01.
0:33:29.90 --> 0:33:29.490

Hmm.
0:33:29.50 --> 0:33:31.900

I13
Because that's what would govern the connection piece.
0:33:32.650 --> 0:33:38.630

I13
And any barriers I I don't think there is, to be honest now.
0:33:38.830 --> 0:33:41.340

I13
But I could be wrong and not push.
0:33:42.340 --> 0:33:45.690

I13
And like there's patches going into houses everyday of the week.
0:33:46.910 --> 0:33:47.330

Yeah.
0:33:46.490 --> 0:33:49.900

I13
339
Like it's just, it's that connection piece of.
0:33:51.140 --> 0:34:8.450

I13
Where where that battery connects to the vehicle, can that be essentially transposed into connecting to
a House and that that's probably more a question for a charity point install or a battery installer
electrician or someone might be better placed to answer that one for you than myself that I wouldn't
want to put you wrong on it.
0:34:15.740 --> 0:34:16.0

I13
Yeah.
0:34:9.640 --> 0:34:16.810

No, that's fair. Getting an answer of you know that there's you can't think of any barriers is also a good
answer for us. So that's that. That's a that's a good thing.
0:34:19.110 --> 0:34:22.490

Well, the next question is a bit more and secondary life batteries, but I feel like we might have.
0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:24.180

Um.
0:34:24.890 --> 0:34:35.140

Because, yeah, it's kind of talking about the circular economy and secondary life batteries. So you kind
of already dug into that a little bit. So is that my team mates have any other questions that they?
0:34:36.60 --> 0:34:36.720

They wanna ask.
0:34:37.890 --> 0:34:38.780

I don't.
0:34:40.180 --> 0:34:40.520

Sir.
0:34:40.180 --> 0:34:40.540

Yeah.
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0:34:37.700 --> 0:34:51.240
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Ohh yeah, I might just jump, I might just jump in and ask a quick one and I know you spoke a bit about
the importance of research and I suppose just kind of considering the.
0:34:52.10 --> 0:35:5.380

Kevin Codd (Umail)
The rule that, like government, consumer manufacture and researcher plays in the transition, I'd love to
know. Like who you think is the most important player in in this whole thing and in terms of really getting
the ball rolling.
0:35:7.190 --> 0:35:10.680

I13
As in which the tree you've named is the most important.
0:35:10.650 --> 0:35:21.260

Kevin Codd (Umail)
And yeah, in term in, yeah. In terms of like who, where do you think change really starts in terms of
igniting the spark of the transition or really like propelling it forward?
0:35:22.900 --> 0:35:24.810

I13
You wanted me to be honest, I would say none of them.
0:35:30.60 --> 0:35:30.430

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:35:47.250 --> 0:35:47.630

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:35:25.700 --> 0:35:55.550

I13
I would say it's the Irish public and that's what they need and what they want. That drives everything
that drives the research, it drives the people and government. Say there's policy needed to serve this
need that's not been served. So I will probably say none of them if I was being perfectly honest, but you
could argue any of them as well. At the other side. But at the end of the day, people who work in the
government, people work in the public sector like me, we're here to serve the public. We're not here to
serve academia. We're not here to serve.
0:35:55.640 --> 0:36:20.20

I13
Research. We're not here to serve in industry. We're here to serve the citizens of Ireland and to do
what's best for them, even if they might think it's now for what's best for them. We have to then lean on
your government, your researchers, to say, well, what is the best way forward? What is the best benefit?
But it's also take that citizen forest lens and put it on everything that comes out of research.
341
0:36:20.780 --> 0:36:28.500
I13
Make sure it is citizen focused because if we're spending the public's money, it has to serve the public.
0:36:29.860 --> 0:36:33.10

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And.
0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:48.150

I13
But I could give you a good example of where you could take research and turn it into benefits for the
public as well. Then if you were to look at the publications in our website, there's a behavioural insights
paper on the EV customer journey.
0:36:48.960 --> 0:37:5.290

I13
Where we done the research behind from a behavioural aspect of what is the journey? What are the
different stages? What are the barriers at each point and we made recommendations then of what we
could implement to address those barriers. And then we went and we pretty much implemented
everything.
0:37:6.730 --> 0:37:21.460

I13
And you can see the momentum growing, leaving Mack. There's a lot of not saying that's the sole
reason for us, but it's definitely a contributor to it, but it could be worth having a look at that as well,
cause you can see the we saw there was a customer needs.
0:37:22.260 --> 0:37:27.950

I13
To go electric, the consumer needs it wasn't really happening. Why is that? So we went and researched
why?
0:37:28.780 --> 0:37:40.900

I13
Then we went to and said this. The research we've done this, the problem we're trying to fix that is
going to do this. They gave us the nod, gave it the money we went implemented and the result was the
momentum building now in the TV market.
0:37:41.740 --> 0:37:43.240

I13
That's very high level expert.
0:37:44.630 --> 0:38:8.620

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Yeah. And I suppose just kind of I wanted to circle back for a second to the
whole battery swapping thing. And I know we're kinda talking about, like, it's lack of and applicability to
342
vehicles. But I was wondering if you thought there would have be any application in terms of heavy duty
vehicles for for battery swapping or reduce, say in general it's just a no go.
0:38:9.490 --> 0:38:39.870

I13
I will go to the opposite end of the scale. That's why you like, if you're are you going that passenger cars
can't do it because the battery is too heavy in the year left some struggle then to the hot and heavy
heavy duty vehicle. Then cause it would be probably 5-6 times the size the battery. But if you look at E
scooters E motorbikes there prime 1st and if you look at a place like is it Japan and China they have
literally vending machines with batteries for these. For these vehicles there you just take it, pop it in and
get your other one.
0:38:39.950 --> 0:38:50.710

I13
Enough. You go again and that's read the real place for it's small, compact and carry by hand and pop in
and pop out. But a lot of that those come in with. How easy is it to put in and out.
0:38:52.260 --> 0:38:52.660

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:38:51.710 --> 0:39:4.850

I13
And then if it is that easy, consumer just come along with yours while you're standing there and what
happens next? So you have to have some mechanical locking device that you can protect and secure the
battery in place as well. But that's just a few things jumping out at me anyway.
0:39:5.870 --> 0:39:12.180

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's brilliant. I'm. I'm all good for questions on my end. Anyway, I talk about you
guys.
0:39:15.60 --> 0:39:15.980

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah, all good.
0:39:15.100 --> 0:39:29.520

I I I think I'm I think I'm all set here. Yeah. The only questions I have are like business model stuff. So
unless you have like, you know, a lot of cooking experience and business models, electric vehicle
business model, stuff like that. So our last kind of thing.
0:39:28.900 --> 0:39:29.900

I13
Not quite, no.
343
0:39:34.0 --> 0:39:35.130
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah. Thanks so much.
0:39:35.850 --> 0:39:36.610

Thank you.
0:39:30.330 --> 0:39:36.740

No, no, that, that's that's fair. No, that's fair. Shane. Really appreciate it. It's been really insightful.
0:39:38.190 --> 0:39:38.790

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:39:39.130 --> 0:39:39.520

Excellent.
0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:40.990

I13
Yes, it's no problem at all. Anytime if you have any questions, all feel free to reach out at any stage.
0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:41.940

Yeah.
0:39:42.100 --> 0:39:42.940

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Brilliant.
0:39:41.410 --> 0:39:44.680

****. Did we get the? Did we get the consent form? Ohh, Kevin.
0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:45.830

Excellent.
0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:45.890

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah, yeah, we got that, yeah.
0:39:46.500 --> 0:39:46.930

Excellent.
344
0:39:45.290 --> 0:39:47.500
Wait. Ohh yeah yeah. Ohh.
0:39:45.980 --> 0:39:47.860

I13
Yeah, you got that, I think I, yeah.
0:39:47.360 --> 0:39:48.330

Kevin Codd (Umail)
That brilliance.
0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:49.730

Excellent. That was the last bit. That's perfect.
0:39:49.630 --> 0:39:50.300

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:39:51.490 --> 0:39:52.530

Yeah. Thanks again, Shane.
0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:53.180

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Thanks so much for your time.
0:39:55.710 --> 0:39:56.80

Yeah.
0:39:53.270 --> 0:39:56.400

I13
No problem at all. Anytime. Guys, I wish you well.
0:39:55.460 --> 0:39:57.930

Yeah. Thank you. You too.
0:39:56.10 --> 0:39:58.410

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Brilliant. Thank you. Have a good day.
0:39:57.220 --> 0:39:58.750

Thank you. Thank you. Take care.
345
0:39:58.220 --> 0:39:59.640
I13
Like that by now.
0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:0.220

OK.
0:40:0.320 --> 0:40:0.760

Bye bye.
0:40:0.710 --> 0:40:1.350

Kevin Codd (Umail)
I.
I14
0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.320
Yeah.
0:0:2.710 --> 0:0:3.80

Yeah.
0:0:0.-440 --> 0:0:4.450

Kevin Codd (Umail)
To whatever extent you can answer them. Is grace. Like any insights at all will be would be very helpful
to us so.
0:0:5.600 --> 0:0:6.180

I14
OK.
0:0:5.400 --> 0:0:19.80

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I know circular economy is like kind of your general area. Can you talk just a bit
on like your experience working in in your space and just generally things that excite you were interest
you so we can have a better idea?
0:0:29.680 --> 0:0:29.960

Sure.
0:0:19.890 --> 0:0:32.100

I14
346
Okay so I don't focus primarily on the circular economy. It's kind of just something we touch in on for our
client work, but it's not a huge area of focus, but.
0:0:33.30 --> 0:0:33.660

I14
Um.
0:0:34.620 --> 0:0:41.670

I14
So I've been, I suppose, working in environmental sustainability for a long time, so long before it was
fashionable and.
0:0:43.0 --> 0:0:52.450

I14
So and I so I've worked frontline and kind of operational roles in, in industry and the public sector. So
yeah, can I've seen all sides.
0:0:53.650 --> 0:1:1.960

I14
But more recently, I I've Co founded sustainability. It works with two cofounders and we specialise in
sustainability consultancy.
0:1:3.440 --> 0:1:6.760

I14
But I guess for the last 10 years or more.
0:1:17.330 --> 0:1:17.620

Hmm.
0:1:7.750 --> 0:1:19.630

I14
I been working kinda on the. I suppose the the costs were kind of an emerging area in sustainability
which is client climate, tech innovation and just seeing the need to support.
0:1:21.30 --> 0:1:31.20

I14
A pipeline of entrepreneurs and innovators to come forward and just kind of create a pipeline of new
solutions. And I suppose as time has gone on, we can see that.
0:1:31.940 --> 0:1:49.360

I14
It's hugely important that we have innovation and entrepreneurship and more companies developing
products and solutions to help us meet net 0 carbon. So plus we talk about circular economy. I tend not
to over focus on circular economy because ultimately it is an approach.
0:1:50.110 --> 0:2:0.540

I14
347
It's an approach that has been around for a long time, but really what brings it all together is the need
for us to move to a net zero economy.
0:2:2.140 --> 0:2:4.670

I14
And that's what's driving change.
0:2:6.340 --> 0:2:6.710

Sure.
0:2:6.250 --> 0:2:9.900

I14
So circular economy is like you know.
0:2:10.830 --> 0:2:29.760

I14
Energy management that has been around as a concept for a long time, environmental management
has been around for a long time. That recycling has been long for around for a long time. Procure
sustainable ethical procurement has been around for quite some time. They're all their approaches to
help us do better.
0:2:30.580 --> 0:2:33.950

I14
But I get circular economy is in nice.
0:2:35.110 --> 0:2:35.660

I14
Um.
0:2:37.180 --> 0:2:41.950

I14
It it's a good concept because it brings lots of things together under one.
0:2:42.450 --> 0:2:57.140

I14
Ohh, I suppose phrase and one concept for all of those things, but I think and there is a risk sometimes
with using the word circular economy because it's such a broad field and we need lots of different
specialists.
0:2:57.810 --> 0:3:18.640

I14
So there is, I think, a little bit of a, a risk that we we just kind of focus all everything has to be circular
and it has to be this you know we have to have a circular economy. We forget about the practical issues
that we sometimes need which will be energy management and environmental management and all that
kind of very fundamental.
348
0:3:31.50 --> 0:3:31.380
Sure.
0:3:19.250 --> 0:3:49.170

I14
And skills that we need to bring everything forward. So. And I think circular economy could potentially
get hijacked, you know, unintentionally. But it could get hijacked, you know, and we may not be move
things on as quickly as we need to. But ultimately I think all of these things are really important because
they all help us move forward to decarbonizing our economy.
0:3:49.260 --> 0:3:56.870

I14
And once we all know that kind of resources, there's a pinch point around resources as well. You know
at a global level.
0:3:57.910 --> 0:4:3.710

I14
Ultimately, what's going to impact us all first will be.
0:4:5.50 --> 0:4:6.870

I14
Global climate change, global warming.
0:4:8.770 --> 0:4:9.170

Yeah.
0:4:8.770 --> 0:4:12.430

I14
So you know that's that's really the thing we have to.
0:4:13.120 --> 0:4:15.90

I14
I suppose tackle as a priority.
0:4:18.90 --> 0:4:18.680

I14
So.
0:4:16.340 --> 0:4:30.340

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I getting alignment culturally and politically to enact all these things, all these
little nuts and bolts, and bring it together. So I understand what you're saying about circular economy
being loaded.
349
0:4:31.700 --> 0:4:32.370
Yeah, yeah.
0:4:28.770 --> 0:4:38.860

I14
So I I still think circular economy is great, don't get me wrong, but it's it's just we need to be careful
because there is always a trend and environmental and social issues that we.
0:4:39.890 --> 0:4:46.100

I14
We kind of latch on to the phrase that is current at the time, and sometimes we forget about the basic
fundamentals.
0:4:47.30 --> 0:4:48.230

Yeah, yeah.
0:4:58.320 --> 0:4:58.730

Yeah.
0:4:47.520 --> 0:4:59.430

I14
So in developing kind of our developing at the circular approach, we just need to make sure that
everyone understands their particular role within that and that is well defined.
0:5:0.710 --> 0:5:2.340

I14
Does that make sense? If that makes sense?
0:5:24.50 --> 0:5:24.400

I14
Ohh.
0:5:0.540 --> 0:5:24.740

That's awesome. That's honestly no, that that totally does. I think that's actually kind of what we're
trying to do. You know whether we'll get there or not, honestly. You know, that's up in the air, but I think
that's our goal is really to try to understand all of the nuances of the circular economy of electric
vehicles. So you're broad, general circular economy understanding is like actually really useful to us,
cause we're still trying to wrap our heads around it too. So, yeah.
0:5:25.220 --> 0:5:32.30

I14
350
That's alright. Thank you. Know. So I kind of come back to the point that for every sector in the Irish and
global economy.
0:5:32.780 --> 0:5:37.690

I14
They at this point there's some form of what's called a marginal cost Bateman to curve.
0:5:38.350 --> 0:5:46.660

I14
Um developed for that sector, so that tells you, well, what's the technology solution that's going to help
you get to net 0 carbon the quickest?
0:5:48.60 --> 0:5:50.630

I14
And you know it's it's cost versus impact.
0:5:51.230 --> 0:5:51.620

Yeah.
0:5:51.900 --> 0:5:56.950

I14
Now you know, we know that like on the energy front, you know.
0:5:57.650 --> 0:6:28.460

I14
10 years ago, solar PV. You know, it didn't look so good in that Mac curve where now solar PV cause the
price has come down so much. It actually is a go to technology for everyone. So you'll see Mac curves for
pretty much every sector. You might not see them throw it Irish economic sectors, but you'll see every
country would have a form of them for sectors. And that's a really important thing because the the
circular economy is looked into all of those in terms of the types of solutions.
0:6:28.560 --> 0:6:29.170

I14
You see.
0:6:29.930 --> 0:6:30.320

Hmm.
0:6:30.450 --> 0:6:32.560

I14
So in those my curves you might see.
0:6:34.250 --> 0:6:35.770

I14
351
You know? Um.
0:6:37.490 --> 0:6:46.580

I14
On the energy side, you might see ISO 50,000 or one in there as just off the top of my head like that's
effectively circular economy cause it's energy management.
0:6:47.440 --> 0:6:47.700

Hmm.
0:6:48.630 --> 0:6:53.860

I14
You you know, so like you, you'll see maybe some form of you know.
0:6:54.670 --> 0:7:9.530

I14
In the industrial side, you will see something in there on re repurposing, reuse of kind of equipment,
extending life equipment. So you the Mac curves will reflect what's going on as well in that kind of
circular kind of space.
0:7:10.590 --> 0:7:15.600

I14
But they are all linked back to will. How are they going to help us reduce our carbon footprint?
0:7:17.80 --> 0:7:17.480

Right.
0:7:17.320 --> 0:7:20.530

I14
And that's kind of really what a fundamentally comes back to.
0:7:21.950 --> 0:7:22.550

I14
So.
0:7:23.650 --> 0:7:56.900

I14
In our work. So yeah. But but ten years ago, we started to climate accelerator with climate kick. So I ran
that for two years and that was through the Greenway, which was a clean technology cluster. And then
when we ran down our operations, we pretty much handed that to Trinity to run, to manage like, the,
the the administration of it. But we're still delivering the programme with them, and it's still running.
And Trinity and climate cake, not it wasn't kind of through Trinity, was a little bit through climate cake,
which is a European.
352
0:7:57.300 --> 0:7:58.0
I14
Platform.
0:7:58.950 --> 0:8:5.200

I14
They latched on to the concept of circular as well. You know, as in let's have a circular accelerator. Um.
0:8:6.250 --> 0:8:21.880

I14
So we ran with that for for a while and it's still, you know, we have a an excelerator right now we're
focused on the built environment in the construction space, but I'm slowly moving them back into the
narrative. It's about climate.
0:8:22.650 --> 0:8:34.550

I14
And then the approaches and some of the solutions we'll see will be circular, but the end point here the
objective is to reduce carbon or greenhouse gas emissions or adapt.
0:8:35.350 --> #
0:8:35.620
Hmm.
0:8:35.870 --> 0:8:36.640

I14
One or the other.
0:8:37.630 --> 0:8:42.380

I14
So what we're seeing, so yes, so we're specialising I suppose in built environment.
0:8:43.760 --> 0:8:55.60

I14
But I guess over the years we have seen just different companies come through that are all kind of the
say they're circular and they're from Irish, they're from across Europe.
0:8:56.50 --> 0:9:3.320

I14
And there's some really kind of good companies and then you kind of see there is an emergence of
companies as well who are.
0:9:3.980 --> 0:9:11.470

I14
353
I suppose that find themselves in that circular space, but I would describe them more kind of on the
fringes of the solution, as in they're more kind of social.
0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:16.830

I14
Aligned to kind of social and people needs and more like I suppose.
0:9:17.640 --> 0:9:23.510

I14
Helping people adapt their lifestyles to kind of better practises, so that will be things like you know.
0:9:24.230 --> 0:9:24.720

I14
Ohh.
0:9:35.920 --> 0:9:36.220

Hmm.
0:9:25.630 --> 0:9:40.340

I14
Shopping apps to encourage um, I suppose you to shop in certain stores that have a better kind of
environmental credentials or incentivise you to buy less in some way so you see.
0:9:41.440 --> 0:9:42.300

I14
Financially.
0:9:43.510 --> 0:9:44.120

I14
That's it.
0:9:39.430 --> 0:9:46.460

We're buying locally instead of buying from a long distance, you have to do with all the transport to get
there. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
0:9:45.680 --> 0:9:52.30

I14
So you you see, so you do see quite a few of those, but you know that's a pretty crowded space so would
say.
0:9:56.870 --> 0:9:57.140

Sure.
354
0:9:52.860 --> 0:10:1.680
I14
Um, pretty hard to run a business in that space because business is all about scale. If you want to be
successful.
0:10:2.500 --> 0:10:4.510

I14
And we want businesses to be successful.
0:10:5.470 --> 0:10:5.770

Right.
0:10:5.880 --> 0:10:8.630

I14
Because you still need businesses cause we still need an economy.
0:10:9.140 --> 0:10:10.30

I14
Um.
0:10:10.890 --> 0:10:22.530

I14
But we are, I suppose, every now and again we do see some really interesting companies come through,
whether it's in the construction, you'll so solutions to adapt buildings for retrofit or.
0:10:23.250 --> 0:10:23.630

I14Ohh.
0:10:25.490 --> 0:10:31.840

I14
You know, I suppose we we saw a really good one, those zero Nash, which is an Irish based company
which you might have come across.
0:10:33.420 --> 0:10:39.740

I14
So that's around. It's an app, but it's it's working with kind of brands to I suppose.
0:11:7.790 --> 0:11:8.290

That's cool.
0:11:8.350 --> 0:11:11.260

I14
It's pretty clever because you can then actually.
355
0:11:27.180 --> 0:11:27.990
Yeah, absolutely.
0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:40.800

I14
Get some of the high end waste collected in a way where you're not damaging it and then bring it to
recycling centres where it can actually be properly treated and then reused and put back into value
chains again. And company and brands are really interested in that because it is all about maintaining
the value of the the, the the product, not that's much the product, but the materials used within the
product.
0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:43.240

I14
Um.
0:12:0.370 --> 0:12:0.860

I14
Hello.
0:11:42.210 --> 0:12:1.820

Yeah, absolutely. Kind of kind of going off of that. We have like a lot of our research and all the time
spent has been on obviously circular economy is one of the angles, but secondary use of batteries was
another one. So kind of expanding on what you're saying there like there's an app that lets you kind of
navigate exactly how best to do this.
0:12:3.260 --> 0:12:15.20

Second, use of batteries. Have you any experience at all in secondary use of batteries for electric
vehicles as pertaining to those recycling needs and how we can capture the value and capture those
resources so there's less waste?
0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:31.270

I14
Yeah. So we've had a few companies from come through the programmes. One is Irish based, it's called
Second Life battery. So you may want to look them up. John Byrne and he has been, I suppose, crunching
numbers in this for for some time.
0:12:32.70 --> 0:12:32.610

I14
I'm.
0:12:33.470 --> 0:12:47.640

I14
You know for for some reason you know there and I think that's just more of an issue for them in a
356
company. They don't have a website presence. And so it's always hard to kind of know what stage they
are actually at, but they've been working at this for some time.
0:12:48.60 --> 0:12:48.370

Yeah.
0:12:48.300 --> 0:13:11.340

I14
To go well, how do we create almost like battery parks with these batteries so we can harness that
power. So they've actually figured out will this end if we have a battery, you know 80% of cells are still
kind of very viable. So we can kind of bypass the two cells that are not viable and hope the mall together
and get you know use these batteries kind of for storage and supply.
0:13:12.90 --> 0:13:12.450

Right.
0:13:12.0 --> 0:13:16.520

I14
So he's figured I thought system and then there was another company. Let me look them up to you.
0:13:18.270 --> 0:13:18.990

I14
Ohh.
0:13:38.170 --> 0:13:38.350

I14
The.
0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:38.850

Is this an Irish based company as well?
0:13:39.860 --> 0:13:40.610

I14
No.
0:13:41.50 --> 0:13:41.360

No.
0:13:43.750 --> 0:13:44.50

I14
Hmm.
357
0:13:56.990 --> 0:13:57.780
I14
Yeah, just.
0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:58.850

Well, that's okay if you if you can't find it just now, you can forward that on to to Kevin on LinkedIn or or
whatever or through e-mail if that's if that's better. If you think of it or find a yeah.
0:14:2.450 --> 0:14:4.250

I14
Really annoying when you can think of something.
0:14:5.20 --> 0:14:9.470

Ohh that's that's me. 90% of the time I think, yeah, yeah.
0:14:9.370 --> 0:14:10.640

I14
But yeah, no there were.
0:14:12.40 --> 0:14:17.230

I14
And once they said Sylvenia, but they actually had set up, you know?
0:14:19.10 --> 0:14:23.550

I14
They were a little bit more advanced in terms of their kind of product development, I would say than.
0:14:34.650 --> 0:14:34.870

Hmm.
0:14:24.670 --> 0:14:37.960

I14
John and Second Life factory in Ireland, as in you know, there were kind of more active and kind of
getting projects on the ground running and going, but they're the only two that we've really come
across. We came across some company, but I would say there are earlier stage in terms of.
0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:56.970

I14
I suppose looking at alternatives for different materials for batteries, but again, you know the role very
early stage like I would say, TRL maybe two or three, you know and they would need you know a lot of
them were.
0:14:58.390 --> 0:14:59.400

I14
Very kind.
358
0:15:3.790 --> 0:15:4.320
Hmm.
0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:4.330

I14
There, very deep within Eastern Europe and I think.
0:15:5.450 --> 0:15:15.930

I14
They would need quite a bit of help to move their their ideas on with kind of some local. I suppose
business mentors who could kind of get them to the next level.
0:15:17.310 --> 0:15:25.60

I14
But there is like you do see movements in that you know how you switch ash materials kind of from
batteries as well as second life and 2nd use of batteries.
0:15:25.850 --> 0:15:26.250

I14
Ohh.
0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:33.680

I14
And then you know, there is. There's also there is an Irish company, it's not for EV but it.
0:15:33.770 --> 0:15:36.360

I14
Yeah, they are.
0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.630

I14
0 tax so.
0:15:52.90 --> 0:15:52.360

Hmm.
0:15:41.790 --> 0:15:53.970

I14
They're looking at we'll how can you design the A more configurable bot platform to kind of swap in and
out batteries for off road machinery. So they're really targeting like.
0:15:55.260 --> 0:16:11.550

I14
Ohh, say construction or anywhere that you need real heavy machinery that requires batteries. So
they're looking at well, yeah. What's that platform? How can you switch in and out? Batteries make them
359
much more interchangeable. How can you look, you know, what are the components that you need for
those batteries? How can you manage?
0:16:18.540 --> 0:16:18.800

Hmm.
0:16:12.210 --> 0:16:23.790

I14
The battery so you can extend the life of it as well. So they've lots going on there, Galway based and
they're kind of creating their own vertical supply chain. So it could be a really good one to look at.
0:16:24.380 --> 0:16:24.720

But.
0:16:25.750 --> 0:16:26.280

That's cool.
0:16:25.450 --> 0:16:39.290

I14
Um, so, and they're moving. They're moving pretty quickly as a company, like they're not one that we've
worked with, but I've seen them present. And you know, they're moving pretty quickly. So they're
definitely kind of 1 worth a shout out in your in your work.
0:16:40.60 --> 0:16:42.670

Yeah, absolutely. What was the name of that company company again?
0:16:43.110 --> 0:16:46.340

I14
0X ERO zero tech.
0:16:47.260 --> 0:16:47.590

I14
Yeah.
0:16:48.780 --> 0:16:49.390

I14
So.
0:16:45.740 --> 0:16:50.130

Xiara 0 tech. OK great. I thought that's what it was. I just wanted. Yeah.
360
0:16:50.950 --> 0:16:51.230
Yeah.
0:16:50.390 --> 0:16:59.160

I14
Yeah. So what we're not, we haven't seen, you know, loads of companies. You know, it's like I think he's
still in this space.
0:17:0.820 --> 0:17:2.130

I14
Your.
0:17:3.580 --> 0:17:10.580

I14
Everything is happening either, I suppose, quite quietly in the background and we don't hear about it or
you don't read about it.
0:17:11.410 --> 0:17:11.610

Hmm.
0:17:22.780 --> 0:17:23.260

Yeah.
0:17:11.540 --> 0:17:26.670

I14
Or there's a. There's also a huge dependency I think, or a huge expectation on existing kind of
manufacturers to step up and create some sort of vertical supply chain for for their their sector and.
0:17:32.700 --> 0:17:32.990

Yeah.
0:17:27.670 --> 0:17:37.90

I14
You know, I and I think we've seen the same in all sectors, not just kind of evies like we just see the need
that you're going to have to be. You're gonna have to vertically integrate everything because.
0:17:38.890 --> 0:17:49.430

I14
All well, especially in a European sense like the corporate sustainability reporting and directives, the
amount of work you have to do to figure out your upstream value chain is immense.
361
0:17:50.80 --> 0:17:50.450
Hmm.
0:17:51.860 --> 0:17:52.200

Yeah.
0:17:51.120 --> 0:17:53.830

I14
So and you've got better report on that.
0:17:54.530 --> 0:17:55.580

Yeah, yeah.
0:17:54.620 --> 0:17:57.760

I14
Report on the impact you have on nature and biodiversity.
0:18:9.40 --> 0:18:9.340

Okay.
0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:9.660

I14
So you know, if you're going to be manufacturing batteries or if you're a car manufacturer, you're going
to want to know, well, where's the cobalt coming from or where's the lithium coming from and how can
we stand over that mine?
0:18:10.570 --> 0:18:10.970

Yeah.
0:18:11.930 --> 0:18:12.670

Yeah, absolutely.
0:18:11.590 --> 0:18:17.150

I14
And how can we recycle that material back in? I don't think anyone has a figured out yet.
0:18:22.40 --> 0:18:22.350

Yeah.
0:18:17.970 --> 0:18:26.20

I14
362
But that's it. That's that's going to have to happen if if we want a circular system and I think csrd is
probably.
0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:37.870

I14
One of the tools to do it, but it's going to take a few years before some of those results kind of get
published and people get forced to, I suppose, disclose disclose.
0:18:38.550 --> 0:18:43.620

I14
There what they're doing in this space and what they plan to do to improve.
0:18:44.580 --> 0:18:45.540

I14
Their processes.
0:18:46.530 --> 0:18:46.930

I14
But
0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:47.580

Absolutely.
0:18:48.510 --> 0:19:5.790

I14
I I just think a lot of stuff that happens on the fringes, like I think zero tech and Second life battery. I
think they're all good initiatives, but ultimately this is about going to be about scale and how you know
you you kind of have to use the existing infrastructure to try and scale. And as well as that, a resource
efficiency policy would help to maximise the use of resources and reduce waste and you know optimise
the lifecycle of of EVs.
0:19:6.760 --> 0:19:9.170

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:14.950

I14
Yeah, that's OK.
0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:21.150

Let me see. I have a few questions here. You can mindful of your time as well. I wanna make sure we
don't. We don't go over for you. Is 1/2 an hour OK or is or do you need do you? Can we have more time?
Yeah.
363
0:19:22.370 --> 0:19:24.910
I14
I I can spare about another 10 minutes maybe. Yeah.
0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:26.740

I14
Yeah.
0:19:25.40 --> 0:19:29.320

OK, understood. Understood. So I'm gonna pick my questions carefully.
0:19:34.950 --> 0:19:35.680

OK.
0:19:42.100 --> 0:19:42.300

I14
You're.
0:19:37.0 --> 0:19:43.100

So this is again a bit on the circular economy side of things, but it doesn't. You don't have to answer
specifically with TV. You can kind of speak more generally.
0:19:44.490 --> 0:19:53.390

What barriers were challenges do you anticipate in scaling up renewable energy sources to meet the
growing demand for charging EVs? How do these challenges? How can these challenges be addressed?
0:19:58.530 --> 0:20:3.640

I14
Yes. So I what I what I'm hearing and this was at a recent conference with.
0:20:3.720 --> 0:20:5.420

I14
And isn't.
0:20:6.100 --> 0:20:25.820

I14
I was by investors so icef I don't know if you've heard of ice of the Irish Strategic Infrastructure Fund.
They hosted a session recently and they add some folks there from the renewable energy sector, but
more on the marine side because that's where we're going to see a lot of renewable energy
development take place.
0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:32.170

I14
The big challenge is going to be around supply chain and the availability of.
364
0:20:33.670 --> 0:20:40.780
I14
Materials to make the component parts for the renewable energy equipment.
0:20:41.820 --> 0:20:42.130

Sure.
0:20:41.410 --> 0:21:10.800

I14
So if you're thinking about marine, they're going to need certain types of chains, certain types of
anchors, lots of steel. And when everyone, when somebody number, crunches all the commitments
made by all the various countries in Europe alone, there isn't enough worldwide steel production, I think
to provide with everything else is going on to provide the raw materials in to allow them to make their
component parts. So it's going to be huge supply chain issues for renewables.
0:21:12.90 --> 0:21:12.460

Yeah.
0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:19.350

I14
And I think that's not just good, that's marine was the example given. But I think that's also going to be
an issue for.
0:21:20.30 --> 0:21:38.510

I14
Any type of renewable energy equipment, it's going to be the raw materials needed to manufacture the
equipment and then and we haven't seen anything but like I suppose, we're starting to hear about wind
turbine blades get recycled.
0:21:43.390 --> 0:21:43.660

From.
0:22:6.650 --> 0:22:6.970

Right.
0:21:39.930 --> 0:22:9.30

I14
But that's still in its infancy as an idea, so that has to we have to find I, I suppose, ways to recycle them
and recycle them quickly. We have to find ways to recycle kind of PV panels that have come to their their
end of their end of life or that they're less efficient because again there's valuable materials in them. But
you know what are you going to do currently going to escape or something you know. So we need to find
ways to kind of.
365
0:22:9.100 --> 0:22:16.380
I14
I suppose I'm uninstall or decommission all of that equipment and have every processed in some way.
0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:18.70

I14
Hand.
0:22:17.780 --> 0:22:18.310

Yeah.
0:22:19.330 --> 0:22:25.470

I14
So the huge opportunity there for the industry to kind of just grab it and to do something at scale.
0:22:26.270 --> 0:22:39.310

I14
And I guess the challenge it for if you think about kind of justice the circular economy, it is about scale.
It's like with any economy, it's about scale. Like why did all production move to China, it's cause they
could scale and there was volume.
0:22:40.150 --> 0:22:42.710

I14
And that's why they're producing everything so cheaply.
0:22:43.390 --> 0:22:43.750

Hmm.
0:22:43.710 --> 0:22:46.200

I14
So when it comes to circular economy.
0:22:47.180 --> 0:22:50.120

I14
Whilst price is still important.
0:22:51.490 --> 0:22:53.500

I14
Everything is so.
0:23:0.390 --> 0:23:0.850

Yeah.
0:22:55.270 --> 0:23:6.490

I14
366
You're not going to one mind to mine metals. You're going to hundreds and thousands of locations to try
and collect their products. Then you're trying to bring it to maybe multiple sites to disassemble it and
some way.
0:23:6.530 --> 0:23:6.890

Right.
0:23:8.240 --> 0:23:11.670

I14
So it's a really complicated process and.
0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.80

That all costs money and resources and yeah.
0:23:15.410 --> 0:23:15.760

Yeah.
0:23:12.410 --> 0:23:33.340

I14
It's a it's a huge logistics problem and you know you're beginning to see, you know, kind of glimmers of
companies that are kind of being innovative with, like, the the zero net guys, innovation, innovative in
terms of that kind of digital tool to pick up, you know, do pickups that are very localised level, bring them
to some depot where they can kind of get.
0:23:36.650 --> 0:23:36.910

Hmm.
0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:46.350

I14
Grouped again and moved on to a reprocessing facility. But even at that, you know, Ireland is still a small
economy, even if you take kind of the Republic and Northern Ireland so.
0:23:52.730 --> 0:23:53.80

Yep.
0:23:47.350 --> 0:23:56.90

I14
There's probably inimitable we can process here for certain materials. I don't know if anyone has done
the sums on all of those materials.
0:24:1.310 --> 0:24:1.670

Yeah.
367
0:23:56.870 --> 0:24:5.260
I14
But that could be a really useful piece of of research for for somebody, because everything needs needs
scale to reprocess.
0:24:6.340 --> 0:24:7.460

Yeah, absolutely.
0:24:6.360 --> 0:24:9.690

I14
It was a very simple thing. We were looking at mattresses.
0:24:11.30 --> 0:24:13.250

I14
One of the companies that we worked with before.
0:24:42.10 --> 0:24:44.420

All degraded, yeah.
0:24:14.780 --> 0:24:44.540

I14
They are called bounce back. They're based in Galway but they take in use mattresses and that this they
stripped them back and into all their kind of component parts so they can kind of take the springs that's
valuable. The youth and material for something else. But then you have all this UPZ that. Then there are
the foam that's in the mattress and nobody wants it. So it's all getting it all gets landfilled so.
0:24:45.180 --> 0:24:51.750

I14
We talked to different companies for them, you know to and they just said like well, the scale and
Ireland has just, even if you bundle it all together.
0:24:52.610 --> 0:24:54.860

I14
It's so it's still quite small.
0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:56.460

Yeah, yeah.
0:25:7.580 --> 0:25:7.980

Right.
0:24:56.30 --> 0:25:8.990

I14
So London, all that together to get it to the UK for reprocessing, which you can, it can be reprocessed.
368
But the logistics behind all of that are tough and then make it uneconomic. So I suppose that is the only
thing is.
0:25:10.10 --> 0:25:17.940

I14
You there has to be financial mechanisms there to make the logistics, then those collection systems
economically viable.
0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.150

Yeah, it needs to be worth it, yeah.
0:25:24.570 --> 0:25:24.930

Right.
0:25:21.70 --> 0:25:30.780

I14
It has to be worth it right now. It it isn't. So putting a $0.20 or whatever it is, mark up on coffee cups.
0:25:33.130 --> 0:25:33.980

I14
Gran, it's.
0:25:34.390 --> 0:25:34.780

Yeah.
0:25:34.660 --> 0:25:36.450

I14
But not when it's not gonna change the world.
0:25:52.290 --> 0:25:52.690

Yeah.
0:25:37.80 --> 0:26:5.790

I14
You have to if we want to actually get to the heart of it, we have to look at the industrial incentives so
that we can scale up big kind of connection, take back logistic schemes because yeah, the coffee cup fee,
I personally think it's. It's nice, like it's good, it's good for all of us to be reminded, to bring our keep cup
with us, but it's not gonna really change.
0:26:6.420 --> 0:26:7.120

I14
The system.
369
0:26:8.70 --> 0:26:8.430
Sure.
0:26:9.130 --> 0:26:10.770

Yeah, it's not a silver bullet.
0:26:9.110 --> 0:26:14.220

I14
So I suppose when we think everyone of this, no, when we think about all this, it is about systemic
change.
0:26:15.80 --> 0:26:24.980

I14
So each individual kind of touch point of fossils, consumers we, we, we are really important don't get
me wrong, but we're not going to change the system for.
0:26:27.670 --> 0:26:27.970

Yeah.
0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:29.100

I14
The few willing people that bring their coffee cups with them.
0:26:29.990 --> 0:26:46.890

That's interesting. Yeah, that's one of the themes that's come up recently is we need to a cultural and
political shift in order to get the whole thing. It's not a, it's not individual level. It's also it's not
necessarily in the consumer either, it's on corporations to to listen to what people are saying, what their
community and what the people want.
0:26:55.430 --> 0:26:56.110

Yes. Yeah.
0:26:47.510 --> 0:26:57.400

I14
Yeah, like the consumer has a big role to play because we need to be willing to accept that we have to
pay more for certain things. So the true value of products.
0:26:58.510 --> 0:27:0.740

I14
Though which were not doing right now.
370
0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:1.0
Yeah, vote with your dollars.
0:27:1.810 --> 0:27:2.200

Yep.
0:27:1.850 --> 0:27:11.940

I14
You vote with your daughters and you know, so we have to be able to do that. There has to be better
transparency of the the the price, fees and structures. And I know we've talked to.
0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:18.370

Aideen O'Hora
Primary plastic manufacturers, like one of the the bigger ones globally.
0:27:19.70 --> 0:27:20.970

I14
And they have the technology to do all of this.
0:27:21.860 --> 0:27:23.60

I14
Like they.
0:27:23.990 --> 0:27:34.250

I14
They can do it, they, but it's more expensive because right now because there's less demand for the
material. So they have to produce it in smaller quantities.
0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:35.250

Right.
0:27:35.50 --> 0:27:57.40

I14
So until such time that they get so on the plastic side. So until such time as they get big orders from toy
manufacturers or um food, somebody making food containers for plastic containing that's fully removed
produced from recycled material or whatever it happens to be or biodegradable material become
possible.
0:27:58.100 --> 0:28:2.650

I14
It's not worth their while. Well, they're not getting the orders because they have to charge too much.
0:28:3.660 --> 0:28:4.50

Right.
371
0:28:5.40 --> 0:28:5.360
Right.
0:28:4.740 --> 0:28:7.480

I14
So something has to change where?
0:28:8.370 --> 0:28:11.240

I14
You know, to begin with thought um.
0:28:11.900 --> 0:28:14.510

I14
Greener option has to be heavily incentivised.
0:28:14.970 --> 0:28:15.290

Yeah.
0:28:16.70 --> 0:28:22.750

Yeah, absolutely. What? Well, I don't know what the solution is for that, necessarily with carbon tax or
there's a petroleum tax plastic. I don't know what it is.
0:28:23.890 --> 0:28:27.720

To to mitigate the you know the effects of the, but yeah.
0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:31.420

I14
Yeah, well, like even the carbon, like we're we're subsidising, we still subsidise fossil fuel industry.
0:28:32.110 --> 0:28:32.440

Yeah.
0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:33.860

Right.
0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:47.70

I14
But we're not subsidising kind of the. So that's you know, so the inverse. So that is you have to subsidise
the manufacturing industry to switch to greener materials.
372
0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:48.270
Hmm.
0:28:48.110 --> 0:28:50.680

I14
And take away the subsidies from the fossil fuel industry.
0:28:53.740 --> 0:28:54.270

I14
So.
0:28:51.520 --> 0:29:1.890

Yeah, absolutely. Well, 18, I see, I see it's, um, where I have 402 now. I don't wanna hold you too long if
you have time for other question 2, that's great, but if not, you know, no worries.
0:29:3.870 --> 0:29:4.280

Okay.
0:29:1.830 --> 0:29:6.620

I14
It's time for another question or two. Yeah, it's hard to stop talking when you're when you're mid flow.
0:29:7.270 --> 0:29:16.780

I know, I know it. Yeah, I don't. I don't wanna stop you at any point. So. So we're gonna, I guess, move a
bit to policy. I guess it's still circular. Kind of, but it's a bit more policy side of things.
0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:32.250

Role do you see? And this is kind of exactly we're just talking about, so forgive me if it's already kind of
an answer, but what role do you see governments and policymakers playing in the promotion of a A of
the adoption of a circular economy practises within within the electric vehicle market?
0:29:35.410 --> 0:29:35.910

I14
Nah.
0:29:37.380 --> 0:29:38.250

I14
I think.
0:29:40.110 --> 0:29:42.980

I14
They they have a role to play and it's it's.
373
0:29:45.30 --> 0:29:58.540
I14
Again, we take our ranges as an example. You know we have a target or something like 900,000 nearly
1,000,000 vehicles by 20-30 or something like that. We're not gonna meet it because people can't afford
to buy an EV.
0:30:0.520 --> 0:30:0.880

Yeah.
0:30:0.450 --> 0:30:7.30

I14
So, you know, and the reduced the grants on evies, so it's gonna make it harder for people to switch.
0:30:8.510 --> 0:30:36.480

I14
So they're really need to incentivise the consumer to switch to EVs, they need to do what the judge, I
don't know many years ago it was now maybe 10 years ago, maybe even 15 years ago where they had a
take back scheme for cars that were all of a certain age. And you know it was called a scrappage scheme.
So you dropped your car in, you got a couple of grand for it, but it then you could put that money
towards your new car.
0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:44.190

I14
And that came in, I think when they were trying to get people to switch to lower emission vehicles at
the time.
0:30:45.340 --> 0:30:45.700

Yeah.
0:30:45.470 --> 0:30:54.0

I14
Um, but now they need to look at a scrappage scheme for diesel cars, so we all have diesel cars because
they are still, you know.
0:30:54.840 --> 0:31:0.630

I14
They can be quite efficient to run in terms of what how much fuel they consume, but they still.
0:31:3.580 --> 0:31:3.920

Yeah.
0:31:1.920 --> 0:31:5.560

I14
Consume fossil fuels, so you know it's a challenge.
374
0:31:7.440 --> 0:31:11.710
Aideen O'Hora
So the thoughts, the first thing is governments have to incentivise the.
0:31:13.70 --> 0:31:14.480

I14
Purchase of Ev's.
0:31:16.460 --> 0:31:26.190

I14
There needs to be, I suppose there is no level of comfort in the amount of chargers located publicly for
use.
0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:30.740

I14
And I so I think you know and that's kind of within.
0:31:32.50 --> 0:31:38.380

I14
Yeah, you know that that needs to be taken control of by the government. You know, it's currently, I
suppose.
0:31:53.300 --> 0:31:53.710

Yeah.
0:31:39.920 --> 0:32:6.560

I14
Under, you know, the a lot of the public charging is under the control of ESB networks, UM and then I
suppose you know, different service stations kind of have their own seem to have their own approach,
sometimes to how they do it. So it's very hit or miss and then a lot of the the Chargers don't work and
they don't function. So it people don't have a comfort level to go well. I can go every 50 kilometres and
find a fast charger and I, you know, I know it's going to work.
0:32:7.460 --> 0:32:8.900

Right, right.
0:32:7.830 --> 0:32:20.410

I14
Still, there has to be a much stronger in permata by government to, for example, SP networks to say
sorted out it's not good enough.
0:32:20.940 --> 0:32:23.280

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
375
0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:27.350
I14
Did the SP networks could still manage it, but it's just pulled them up. It's not good enough.
0:32:29.60 --> 0:32:29.470

Yeah.
0:32:30.150 --> 0:32:30.640

For sure.
0:32:29.260 --> 0:32:33.690

I14
And that has to come from there's shareholder, whose government who's the government?
0:32:35.170 --> 0:32:35.510

Yeah.
0:32:37.300 --> 0:32:41.860

I14
And I think that will change the mindset we are, I guess, beginning to see.
0:32:42.790 --> 0:32:58.970

I14
More companies switch to EV fleets and they're doing that because they see they've done their carbon
footprint for some of them their EV fleets, the are the their fleet will be a significant point component of
their carbon footprint. So they're switching to EVs.
0:32:59.870 --> 0:33:12.180

I14
So for at a company in a corporate level, they're just seeing a direct link between NET 0 carbon target
and making an investment to get there and reach that target.
0:33:13.140 --> 0:33:13.530

Sure.
0:33:14.80 --> 0:33:25.160

I14
They don't need anymore help because that's all been driven by their customers and their investors who
go. We want you to be net 0 carbon.
0:33:27.460 --> 0:33:27.830

Right.
376
0:33:27.490 --> 0:33:28.380
I14
So figure it out.
0:33:29.290 --> 0:33:29.660

Right.
0:33:30.410 --> 0:33:37.890

I14
So somebody sensible, go well. Plots are what's our footprint then and then what are the various
investments we need to make to to get there?
0:33:38.270 --> 0:33:39.850

To get to it, yeah.
0:33:39.540 --> 0:33:45.890

I14
So I think at a government level is just pretty simple. It's sort out the consumer unit.
0:33:46.820 --> 0:33:48.140

Yeah, yeah.
0:33:47.470 --> 0:33:48.960

I14
Have confidence to the market.
0:33:50.270 --> 0:33:50.840

Absolutely.
0:33:51.550 --> 0:33:52.200

Absolutely.
0:33:51.900 --> 0:33:58.280

I14
Set up one, so yeah, I'm sure there's loads of things that could do, but you know, for starters.
0:33:57.470 --> 0:34:10.480

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look out for the consumers and try to mitigate their concerns about the
technology and make it easier for them to adopt the technology by easing those concerns. Yeah, it
makes it makes sense.
377
0:34:11.210 --> 0:34:11.750
Makes sense?
0:34:11.310 --> 0:34:13.320

I14
And they would tell you that they're doing that.
0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:15.60

Yeah, right.
0:34:14.460 --> 0:34:18.280

I14
You know, but if they were doing that, we'd have more, much more cars on the road.
0:34:19.70 --> 0:34:20.980

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
0:34:24.870 --> 0:34:25.320

I14
OK.
0:34:21.580 --> 0:34:31.370

Um, so I know. Yeah, it's 408 now. We ask my team mates if they have any other questions or if you're if
you're happy if they're happy, we're happy. We're all happy. Happy days.
0:34:32.0 --> 0:34:32.350

I14
Right.
0:34:34.30 --> 0:34:34.910

I'm good.
0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:36.320

Yeah, we're good.
0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:36.700

Yeah, I'm good too.
0:34:32.510 --> 0:34:39.540

Kevin Codd (Umail)
378
Yeah, I'm. I'm all good on my end anyway. Just just wanna say thanks so much for taking time out of your
day for helping us.
0:34:38.720 --> 0:34:40.890

Yeah. Thank you again. Yeah.
0:34:40.370 --> 0:34:41.40

Thank you.
0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:48.920

I14
No problem and just I I know you did say in your e-mail kind of what the project is. Just remind me kind
of what you're what you're kind of writing up again and.
0:34:51.50 --> 0:34:51.350

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:34:50.530 --> 0:34:52.330

Yeah, absolutely. Does anybody? Yeah.
0:34:53.250 --> 0:35:13.350

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah. So we're basically looking into building a a business model canvas potentially for organisations in
order to help them transition from non fossil fuels. But and something that seems to be coming up first
at the moment in these interviews is kind of the need for.
0:35:25.140 --> 0:35:25.470

Yeah.
0:35:14.770 --> 0:35:44.300

Kevin Codd (Umail)
A kind of stakeholder engagement and kind of framework, more so than anything else at the moment,
cause it seems to be like a lack of information, skills and collaboration that's happening, and even that's
something you kind of touched on a small bit, you know and talking about how people are in
forthcoming with what they're doing and maybe they're, you know, keeping their processes behind the
scenes and stuff. So there seems to be like a real need for more collaboration and communication.
0:35:45.230 --> 0:35:45.540

Yeah.
379
0:35:44.370 --> 0:35:46.630
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Between industries and just in general.
0:35:50.190 --> 0:35:50.510

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:35:58.810 --> 0:35:59.450

I14
Yeah.
0:35:47.820 --> 0:36:0.160

Absolutely, yeah. Education as well. That's one of the other big themes is just making sure everybody
involved in the space is on understanding everything. You know that cause if you don't understand
what's going on, it's hard to make choices and be be acting in the space. Yeah.
0:36:0.590 --> 0:36:0.980

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:36:0.510 --> 0:36:10.510

I14
So maybe just to be clear on what I did, what I said and what I meant, what I meant by what I said is I
think there's a lot of companies working on these these topics.
0:36:11.270 --> 0:36:13.970

I14
Ohh, because they're in a discovery phase.
0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:19.120

Hmm.
0:36:19.190 --> 0:36:19.660

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:36:14.710 --> 0:36:30.660

I14
They're not publicly talking about what they're doing. So and you will find out what lots of companies
they're trying to figure things out. We know with our own clients because we're helping them do their
csrd materiality exercise and they're really good companies.
0:36:32.300 --> 0:36:34.210

I14
They struggle with going well.
380
0:36:34.950 --> 0:36:36.80
I14
How do we do this?
0:36:37.310 --> 0:36:39.190

I14
Because it's new thinking for them.
0:36:40.700 --> 0:36:41.90

Yeah.
0:36:41.90 --> 0:36:43.570

I14
And its new way of business so.
0:36:44.430 --> 0:36:46.320

I14
Hand on heart, I don't like.
0:36:47.100 --> 0:36:49.690

I14
My advice, I don't think you need a business model canvas.
0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:50.920

Yeah.
0:36:50.250 --> 0:36:53.660

I14
Um, yeah, I'm I I would.
0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:55.680

I14
Ohh.
0:36:57.720 --> 0:37:3.700

I14
There's a lot of tools out there, like maybe what would be so like there are lots of tools so you know.
0:37:5.170 --> 0:37:12.340

I14
With the circular economy you have like I amore, who has, like, almost like a circular economy.
0:37:19.260 --> 0:37:19.550

Hmm.
381
0:37:15.380 --> 0:37:40.210
I14
Assessment of of your business model. It's very proprietary. So you know it's it's, it's kind of hard to use
and then another. There's a Danish one that's free, you know it's a really good tool to. So it's from DT U.
It's a really good tool to kind of you register your log in, you put in what sector you were in and it gives
you sign posts. You can answer a bunch of questions and it kind of gives you almost like a health check of
your business model so.
0:37:41.250 --> 0:37:58.640

I14
They're really good and it's like anything that kind of I feel come from Denmark is kind of coming from
years and years of applied experience in circular economy and manufacturing. So I think those resources
and making sure people are aware of them, especially the free free ones.
0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:3.790

I14
Are really kind of important to to to do.
0:38:4.810 --> 0:38:5.150

Yeah.
0:38:5.410 --> 0:38:11.790

I14
Because its business model Canvas has to be unique for every business in order to have value.
0:38:12.690 --> 0:38:12.990

Right.
0:38:13.820 --> 0:38:17.300

I14
But I think it's the whole point around awareness and education.
0:38:18.290 --> 0:38:31.660

I14
Everyone can hear is the word circular economy, but they don't know what it means. So I think it's just
about bringing it back to, you know what? It's a new term for something you've all been doing for a long
number of years. And because these are the practises.
0:38:32.410 --> 0:38:33.20

I14
Involved.
0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:34.220

Yeah.
382
0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:35.510
Yep.
0:38:36.60 --> 0:38:46.780

I14
I think there's some thinking there on circular economy around design thinking that could be brought
forward a little bit stronger so people understand, OK, if I'm developing a product or if I'm looking at my
process.
0:38:54.460 --> 0:38:54.950

Yeah.
0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:57.510

I14
That's my opportunity to design out waste and to design for disassembly and to do all that good stuff
because they don't automatically think about the why. Why do we do it this way?
0:38:58.60 --> 0:38:58.460

Right.
0:38:58.280 --> 0:38:59.70

I14
Why do we need it?
0:39:0.230 --> 0:39:0.700

I14
And.
0:39:1.880 --> 0:39:2.640

I14
I think.
0:39:4.470 --> 0:39:13.120

I14
So yeah, it's so there's a whole. There's an education piece around the design component, the definitely
an education piece around materials. What can you swap out?
0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:32.210

I14
There's definitely and then you know the two, the tools from DT U and if you give give me a minute, I'll
look it up and I'll tell you what it is there that's fantastic. And as the free resource, but it's about kind of
spying posting all of those to businesses I guess are really useful.
383
0:39:32.860 --> 0:39:33.260
Yeah.
0:39:34.40 --> 0:39:34.400

Yeah.
0:39:33.610 --> 0:39:41.30

I14
Um and I kind of like anything that's, you know, not behind a paywall or not behind a membership fee
because.
0:39:46.810 --> 0:39:47.190

Yeah.
0:39:47.950 --> 0:39:48.500

Equitable.
0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:51.360

Yeah.
0:39:41.930 --> 0:39:53.620

I14
You know, then I suppose the intent is very much around getting people to use it and getting it out
there. It's very equitable. Yeah. So just bear with me a second. I'll find out where that.
0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:55.490

Sure.
0:39:57.910 --> 0:39:58.420

I14
Can't.
0:40:6.70 --> 0:40:6.410

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:39:57.210 --> 0:40:18.200

Know that. That's fantastic. What? You're what you're saying? Ohh. Like that's that's the we've had many
conversations about the word to take the project and this is the project has changed like all the time like
we're constantly like ohh how about this this actually makes more sense and our academic advisors like
384
how would we do this instead I'm like OK I guess we're doing that now and then we shift kind of keep
massaging and moulding it so yeah your advice is welcomed.
0:40:29.930 --> 0:40:30.220

Turn.
0:40:18.920 --> 0:40:33.580

I14
Yeah. Well, I I hope it's welcome. Like, I guess we just, I guess we we're really we work with lots of
different companies we kind of hear their stories. We work with start-ups. So we see it from lots of
different angles.
0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:38.110

I14
And there is really no one-size-fits-all but like I would just say.
0:40:40.300 --> 0:40:43.250

I14
And this isn't just for circular economy, it's just there is.
0:41:2.510 --> 0:41:2.860

Yeah.
0:40:44.50 --> 0:41:6.440

I14
A level of awareness that has to happen. So just that's just that's the awareness of the education
because people are misusing phrases and words and it creates kind of confusion. And I think that's
where I started. The conversation is circular economy is a new term for something that's been around for
a long time. So let's just get people really comfortable with what it all means.
0:41:7.400 --> 0:41:8.10

Aideen O'Hora
Um.
0:41:9.910 --> 0:41:10.490

I14
We don't.
0:41:7.120 --> 0:41:11.750

We don't need to reinvent the wheel and and change things. We need to educate and inform you.
0:41:12.90 --> 0:41:15.740

I14
Well, what we do need to do is scale up a lot of that. Um.
385
0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.370
I14
That supply chain issues around making our economy circular.
0:41:21.290 --> 0:41:21.640

Right.
0:41:21.770 --> 0:41:33.140

I14
Saying how do we take back materials and products? How do we close those loops? And that's
something we have never done. So that's definitely something that will require the partnership and
collaboration.
0:41:34.100 --> 0:41:34.690

Aideen O'Hora
Um.
0:41:36.110 --> 0:41:43.550

I14
And that will take time, but I think it will happen that and that's where you do need it. That's where you
need the incentives to come into the market to.
0:41:44.950 --> 0:41:46.400

I14
Help facilitate that.
0:41:47.460 --> 0:41:47.760

Yeah.
0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:49.770

Absolutely.
0:41:48.700 --> 0:41:52.970

I14
So I just sent you the link to um dock.
0:41:53.270 --> 0:41:56.690

I14
That organisation in Denmark.
0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:12.740

Absolutely.
386
0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:13.570
I14
It's called ready to loop, so I think what they've done is is excellent in terms of kind of helping
companies figure out their business models. So yeah, well worth well worth signing up and looking at it.
So I hope that's all helpful guys.
0:42:14.0 --> 0:42:15.150

Kevin Codd (Umail)
So helpful.
0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:16.510

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:16.670

It is 18. Yeah, it really is actually.
0:42:16.650 --> 0:42:16.950

Yeah.
0:42:17.610 --> 0:42:17.880

Yeah.
0:42:17.820 --> 0:42:19.150

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Thanks so much for that.
0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:20.320

I14
Okay so thanks very much and messed up with your research.
0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:21.490

Thank you.
0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:21.620

I14
Yeah.
0:42:21.290 --> 0:42:22.680

Kevin Codd (Umail)
Thanks, Eileen.
387
0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:23.160
I14
Hi.
0:42:22.620 --> 0:42:24.20

Hi. Hi.
0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:24.310

Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye.
0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:24.480

Kevin Codd (Umail)
By now.
I15
I16
Transcript
July 13, 2023, 9:05AM

What specific industries do you think could benefit from the use of second life batteries
and why?
I16 0:04
Umm.
And OK, well, second life batteries are for a start, for for terms of reference, they're only.
Uh, illegal thing.
Now, since the beginning of this year, the EU only legally or made them very reuse
legal.
388
Umm.
I16 0:26
Up to now it's been a bit of a Gray area that hasn't been much interest or support.
At the end of the day, it is possible to use most lithium batteries that are thrown away,
and lithium batteries have what I like to call a week or something.
Design, which hasn't changed that much from the point in time when Mr Bolter came
up with the idea in the 1st place.
But the long and the short of it is that and to answer your question, lithium.
Batteries can be used.
Almost sorry.
Second life lithium batteries can be used almost anywhere.
Where you you would use a new Valerie except in transport and mobility and
applications, and except where you're trying to keep someone alive because that would
be a bit embarrassing, but for most other services where some level of redundancy is
allowed, where some level of backup exists and lithium batteries will work in exactly the
same way as brand new batteries, I say second life.

Yeah.
Yeah, the topic and I know you were just kind of speaking briefly about how only it was
this year that it was kind of coming into effect a bit more.
And I was wondering if you could speak a bit more about if there's any regular sorry,
could you?
I16 1:35
Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Well, to jump on and and if you go on to YouTube and there's a a mile wide rabbit hole
and involving about 1/3 of YouTube, who's far as I'm concerned have already done this.
389
They've already taken used lithium batteries from.
Everywhere laptops from ORC devices from you God knows where and they've already
built them into brand new battery packs, and those battery packs are working for a
given value quite well.
And so in terms of this being Brian, you don't know and people have been up to this for
years with regard to lithium with regard to lead acid and that answered batteries are a
different beast altogether.
They already have.
If you take a lead acid battery and it's completely dead and the things completely
gunked up in the inside, and you send it back for recycling, in all likelihood over 90% of
the metal and out of the plastic in that battery will come back to you as a new battery.
That's how insanely efficient.
The lead acid recycling system is.
It's brilliant.
I I don't usually speak nicely about corporations and big business, but you know, they
managed to do it properly this time.
Mostly because it was quite simple and with lithium batteries on.
3.

Sorry, I think I may have lost you there for a second, John.
I16 3:06
Sorry.
No, no, no, no, no.
Somebody is a.
It just flickered there for a second anyway.
Sorry, just what was the question again like kind of as I talked?

Or just just the just about the industries that could benefit from the second life
390
batteries.
But you you've answer that anyway for us and brilliant and then just the next question
we have for you here is how would you address concerns regarding the reliability and
performance of second life batteries compared to new ones?
I16 3:40
Yeah.
So, and I suppose what I could say to that is you're touching on the reason my business
exists for the last 12 years, I've done nothing but cut up use batteries and lithium, lead,
nickel, sodium, and it culminated in work that we did for Transport for London where we
took 8 1/2 MW hours of batteries from their EV.

Umm.
I16 4:04
Please and put them to second life use.
It is possible to reuse lithium batteries.
It is.
Another thing entirely to use them safely and effectively, and our my companies control
technology and our and our reuse protocol is all about and stripping out the
weaknesses of inherent and legacy battery designs and replacing it with our own.
And so, for instance, second life batteries.
And the reason the EU is promoting the use of second life batteries is simply because
the CO2 costs all lithium batteries is so insanely high.
And because the recovery of metals useful metals from that in chemistries is so
incredibly low, so you have this perfect storm of break batteries, but they only last, you
know, a fraction of what they should and and their disposal or their reconstitution are
both expensive options. Our technology.
Simply uh reuses the batteries in a way so we avoid the fire and failure problems.
I don't particularly want to go too much into our special sauce, and I design and
391
everything, but I'm happy to tell you that it at the end of the day, lithium batteries in all
battery chemistries are linked together in strings in either parallel or serial strings.
OK.
When we take lithium batteries apart and I'm talking about over the last 12 years, and
I'm also talking about other chemistries including their acid and nickel, we always find in
a in a let US battery for instance, where you have six hours, 1 cell is dead, the rest are
fine.
In a lithium battery pack like the laptop where you have 8 individual cells, one or two of
those cells might be damaged or faded or restricted.
Might not even be the cells.
It might be the connector ridden between to the South, or it might be the welding
points that connect the cells.
So any one of those things goes on a battery.
That's it.
Batteries dead now from the point of the user extends batteries are considered black
box technologies.
You understand that term, do you?

Umm yeah.
I16 6:17
OK.
And because they're black box technologies, nobody wants to repair them.
We just check them out and buy a new one.
And that adds actually to the fire risk and to the disposal risk because people in
inevitably are retiring batteries that are actually 3/4 full.
They might not be able to use them and their control mechanism might not actually be
able to recognize that they're still well.
392
Yeah.
I16 6:40
Oh, but they're full.
And when you push them, they'll burst into a wonderful range of colors as you start a
fire.
So it's our our our approach to battery reuse and is a bit more involved than the usual I
hear use it again until it falls over.
But if we're trying to provide a scalable, commercially viable business and you know I
can't get people to sign a waiver about burning your house down and I have to find a
way to overcome that and.
The only restriction I have with that protocol and that approach is that I can't run the
batteries as fast as they would have been within you, and I can't put them everywhere.
You might want them to be, but that's that tends to be the only restrictions, and you
know lithium batteries, lead acid batteries, nickel batteries, they all they all have, you
know, very good and mature manufacturing processes behind them.
It's just amusing to many people in the industry that you're using a battery and that is
it.
It's changed to a system that's very old and you know, and because of the standardized
ways in which batteries are used, the individual performance of the battery is usually
sacrificed to ensure that the battery array maintains continual and consistent
performance.

Umm.
I16 8:05
And to give that to you in another way, you're aware of the difference between
different lithium chemistry.
393
So lithium iron phosphate happens to be particularly energy dense, whereas lithium
polymer batteries tend to be particularly light.
You understand the difference in the chemistries and their applications?
Well, in in to give you an example of the testing that we did, we took a lithium polymer
battery used for drone racing and that battery had an expected lifespan as per its
document and data sheet and all of 800 to 850 cycles.
We took that battery, used it continuously for eight months, recycled it, 40.
6000 times to an 85% depth of discharge.
The only reason we stopped at that point is because the battery delaminated I eat, it
just fell apart.
We we completely dried the Booker out, but my point is, is that a battery is at the end
of the day in electrochemical process.
It's a pipe.
It's a cell.
It's capable of endlessly doing what it's designed to do, which is to capture and release
electrons with, you know, connection to a circuit.
It's only our design standard that favor is weakest link, so put a lot of them together
and use them until one of them falls over.
And sure, that's better than them all bursting into flame.

Yeah.
I16 9:29
I I realized I'm giving you a very uh layman's term of the technology, but and it's not
that I'm assuming that you don't know any better, but batteries are deceptively big
space and and the last thing I want to do is try and give people, you know, the easy
answer that ohh yeah, use them everywhere.

Umm.
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I16 9:48
You'll be grand, you know?
And only if you like living in interesting times.
So sorry.
Go on.
Next question.

Yeah.
No, that's brilliant.
Thank you.
And just to kind of circle back, I supposed to you mentioned how batteries are quite
tight to the old system and it's kind of interesting, it's something that's come up for us
in interviews that we've had.
Is that regulation is trying to catch up to batteries and so I'd love to know if you think
there's any regulatory or policy barriers that are hindering the widespread utilization of
second life batteries and how could those barriers be overcome?
I16 10:21
And.
Well, first of all.
Umm.
OK, so context, the people people in the EU today makes an issue of reusing batteries.
They're really talking about lithium batteries, and they're really talking about lithium
batteries, as I said, because of the problem, the twin problems of poor recovery rate of
that material.
And those would be short and lifestyle.
Now batteries, and in fairness to them, have only really been actively pushed as a
design and a research project over the last decade.
Lithium battery chemistry was first built in the 80s and nobody messed around with it
395
for the 1st 15 or 20 years.
They were too happy to make money out of the basic thing itself, but then mobile
phones happened.
And then you know, micro consumer mobile technology happens and all of a sudden
the other thing about lithium batteries that you have to understand that helps my
business is that a lithium battery is an, as I said to you before, an electrochemical cell in
order for those cells to operate at all together, the quality of the batteries that are
produced today are insanely high compared to five years 10 years ago to give you an
example from 10 or 15 years ago taking us only battery, you'd be quite a, you wouldn't
be surprised at saying a 2 to 3% difference between cells in weight.
Now, that might not sound a lot, but in terms of the chemical process, you know
quarter of 1% difference in weight or density of the material, especially if it's an active
material compared to the other cells in that chain.
It's a big bloody problem.
So today, the fact that those wait differences have been reduced to like .1 of and, you
know awake difference appointment of a percent and weight difference I I can't really
suggest anything for government to do about batteries and adopting them the market
is so early and so nebulous and not our approach for example has been to put an awful
lot of this extra battery resource behind the meter and and there does have to be.

Umm.
I16 12:36
At the end of the day, brands usually are the most effective way, and a carrot and
sticking people when it comes to batteries, you ideally want them all used in a behind
the meter application that allows them to be used for another 6 to 10 years and EB
charged support community health grid projects, community energy trading.
There's a whole range of applications to which you could put these batteries and but at
the moment I mean, are you at all aware of how the grid National Grid in Ireland is
supported with batteries, or is that being part of your research?
396
We.
I16 13:12
So at the moment Ireland we produce about 5 terawatts of.
Yeah, I think it's five tired, lots of energy a day.
And from our renewables or our wind and our solar, we only use four of it, which means
that every day we produce this extra like those are begging aren't and only uses
batteries today for grid balancing, not for grid capacity.
So in order to keep the grid supplying electricity at a certain frequency, it has a fast
response.
DS3 providers who specialize in having diesel gensets gas turbines or batteries on
standby 24/7 ready to be switched on at a moment's notice in order to keep the grid
mallets to answer the question about legislation and legislation, will have to be pushed
in and pushed forward because at the moment Ireland is transitioning from a power
development idea where we had four power stations around the country and everything
looked like a river flowing from those power stations out to the little people in the
corner of the country that you know, we're getting heckled.
Juiced.
Now we have a completely different system.
Half our power is produced in fields across the West of Ireland.
The other half is produced in the tide and the original existing templates of the
National Grid that we have like it's all over the place.
I mean, apart from being one of the oldest friends in the world, which should have
happened by right being a freaking museum, half of it.
And you know, our grid is, is, is now kind of it used to take power from this side and
spread it that way.
Now all the power is on that side and it's coming this way.
So what you need to complement distributed excuse me to complement distributed
generation.
You need distributed storage.
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You want to hold the storage the electricity in a DC form.
You want to hold it as close as possible to the point of production, and you want that
transmission of power from production to battery to be as consistent and regular as
possible.
If the grid is if, if if aren't going to move forward with decarbonizing and that's the
fastest and cheapest way as it is, I can take a Nissan LEAF battery like 24 kWh battery
and that will have a disposal and recycling cost of about to grand.
And that battery I can take and all that 24 kilowatt hours.
I can properly assess and safely reuse 16 kilowatt hours and that's worth about 9 grand
on the market today as a storage asset for the next 10 years.
So the problem is that that battery is up now causing people a couple of grams of
disposal of and that's it.
Job done.
No more input.
But we know we can already do, albeit with refining work and a bit more development,
and is take these batteries, test them, checked them, menu them, plug them into a
system that.
Allows us basically to stack them high and containers and continually draw power from
the renewables when and not being spent elsewhere and supply it back out at peak
times.
There's, there's not.
I mean, we're already producing so much energy that there's a company called Energy
Cloud, as you're probably aware, that is storing spare energy and people's hot water
systems and that's already giving people 6 to 10 kilowatt hours of free energy every day.
Day it's costing nobody anything because we were producing our power anyway and
it's better about that type of untapped power.
Always get used across the grid, otherwise it's just gonna mess up everybody else's day.
So to answer your question simply Goldman's gonna do anything.
It's legislation pushing forward and energy storage.
There are a number of competing high hydrogen and other technologies that are kind
of messing up the ballpark for people, but I think I don't know how aware or up to date
398
you are with hydrogen as a storage technology and you know there's a reason
hydrogen isn't already doing everything and it's very difficult and it's a pain in the ****
to deal with.
So and all of the governments in Europe have pushed an awful lot for hydrogen, and
they're now finding out that neither the heating systems or the transport systems are
really up for using hydrogen.
So a couple of the countries are kind of going ship.
What do we do?
And then those, you know, battery storage is an easy win.
These electric cars are deploying cost than anybody expected.
The batteries are actually quite good if the batteries are used safely, and they can easily
be reused for a further decade.
And that's not just me coming up with figures, you know, we know this.
We've seen this, we've exampled this, we've tested this and all lot of my research was
with a company up in Northern Ireland called Wrightbus and they produced the London
Bus EV.
Now we weren't involved in those batteries.
They're design, but we were in, in, in, involved in their redesign for second life use and
the numbers of those batteries that are out there and the number of EB packs that are
out there, it's huge.
And with enough storage as well, production actually becomes secondary.
You can automate.
You're gonna have a wind turbines, solar panels and everything else producing, and
then you're gonna have a surplus of storage.
So at the end of the day, the country will always have enough energy.
If all the wind and all the summer and shut down, you know the still be enough
momentum in what we have is capacity to keep us going.
But again, it's a complicated question.
There's no one size fits all and tidal turbines as well.
That will have to be a big part of the future.
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Hope you're taking notes on this thing.
I realize I'm rambling at it, but you know and.

Yeah.
No, no.
It's really, really interesting.
Yeah, very fast there, right there. Taking notes.
Yeah, that's really brilliant.
Thanks for that.
And thanks question I have have you here is and I suppose it's a bit tied to that aspect
of and finding ways of eliminating or reducing the waste associated with the batteries.
And I know we spoke a bit about storage and things like that, but how could a circular
economy facilitate the uptake of second life batteries?
I16 19:43
Umm.
Well, I am I I worked with circular era and you are in the war in Iraq during research
over the last couple of years because I've been involved in batteries for ages and the
idea of reusing them is something that we've been working on for a couple of years.
And it was then some surprise to me to find out that it was actually a circular company.
I didn't know.
I was.
I just, you know, turned out that came up with this thing called circularity.
And we happened to be it and.
Batteries are still a brand new technology for everybody, and nobody knows anything
about them.
And I can tell you how I know this.
If you see anybody attaching a lithium battery into their home, then they're wasting
money because your home cannot go faster than that lithium pack.
Your home is regulated by your fuse board and I'm just giving an example of the
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mismatch between where technology is and where people's awarenesses are and in
terms of an uptake in second like batteries, there has to be an information piece.
There has to be an education piece that's vital and A to properly mold expectations and
be to eliminate as many of the disaster cases that you're going to deal with.
Who will come along and try and rebuild everything out of second life batteries and
then give out to you when it, you know, goes on fire or something like that.
So fighting time, the information and giving people a good guidance on what to do
and how to do it, yeah.
So setting up standard protocols and those are other things that will help.
As well, there are a number of things that the battery companies are beginning to do,
like battery passports, so battery will have a blockchain type live ID, and we've already
developed a version of that.
We developed character drivers for each of ourselves, so we test every cell individually
and then assign it a new character status.
So there are there.
There are no awful lot of things that industry is doing and is an awful lot of things that
government is doing, but really if batteries are to be, if my job is to be made easier
selling batteries into and a circular economy, well, my current way of doing that is to
avoid the public where possible, and like the species.
But I'm not overly kind of, you know, educating people myself because it tends to be a
bit of a wall against head against wall affair.
So my approach to reusing these batteries is to provide them in in half MW hour boxes
that I then supply to EV charging stations or I apply I supply to residential estates so that
way those batteries can then be brought into a daily cycle of eight hours service and
and run that service continuously for you know store energy for 12 hours and then use it
for another 12 hours.
That type of cycle, that 12/8 to 12 hour cycle is ideal for the batteries and so we're
already putting the batteries behind the meter so that we don't have to depend too
much on people's education.
But for instance, the councils and national governments all across Europe are already
aware that even today, if you have A and I'll lithium battery and you need to get it
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disposed of, it will cost you on average 3 euro a kilo and to give it an that battery, if that
battery does not have cobalt, that the recyclers can recover, then it will cost you €5 a
kilo and there's a big, big, big queue for this recycling effort.
So you know, there's the these boundaries are gonna start piling up.
They're gonna start and getting in people's way and and non used battery can't
spontaneously burst into flames under rare circumstances.
And but in fairness, he had.
You'd you'd want to be throwing up thing downstairs and doing a couple of other nasty
things to it to get it to do that.
Batteries of their own violation do not normally do that unless they're vape pens, and
I've been a bit annoyed and distracted by vape pens for the last a couple of months
because I can't find a better product that should never have been made and I've been
asked to offer solutions for how to deal with them and well, stop people vaping.
This is my first idea because that's ridiculous.
But you know, given that we have to let them have choice vape pens like this one here.
This is an 18650 based bait pen.
The sad thing is that this is just an example of a well built vape pen.
This cell and comes from a Sony and this cell we reckon has been cycled, IE charge
recharged 9 times this cell and we picked up off the road and which knew from a
company like GWL in Poland you'd be charged 604 and this now has another 10 years of
life.
If we cut it out of this, you know, a solid piece of aluminium pubic.
The idea that somebody put a frigging battery in here and, you know, allowed it to
have a life span of approximately 1% of its capacity and that was allowed, that was
permitted.
You know, I mean, whatever they're smoking, it must be good to that.

Umm.
I16 25:27
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We have to make sense cause to me I just see.
I mean, I I live in a state in north Dublin and and a couple of weeks ago I collected 40 of
those cells and put them in a string and we're selling it as a little night light for some
people.
I mean the the cells are designed for hundreds and thousands of cycles.
Vape pens are designed to be used 5 or 10 times and if you want to talk about things
that could push people towards circularity is you know bringing up stuff like that
because the the the mismatch between what you're getting and what you're using it for
and what you end up throwing away.

Yeah.
I16 26:08
And and the great one to set on fire as well.
I mean, if you're bored and you want to impress a couple of kids, you know and nail,
you know, five minutes and you have a bit of a science experiment.

This.
I16 26:19
But on the other hand, you know, if this thing goes off in your pocket, it goes off in the
back of your car, which is just as likely it would give it a kick where it gets dropped in
the wrong way.
And yeah, so I mean we're designing a fireproof method of collection and containment
and transport for these so that we can take these safely off the road and but then again,
I mean like the talk to you prayer is about hoverboards in the US or East scooters in the
US, which have a great habit of blowing up.
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Umm.
I16 26:46
And I mean there, there, there are issues, legacy issues with the design of lithium packs
that has more to do with the nature of capitalism than it does with the nature of
batteries.
People want cheap new toys fast and they're not prepared or concerned about the cost
and the time taken to research a product properly.
But today, and this is the killer figure for most of my conversations with people, we get
100 batteries from EV's.
EV's, we test them and we rewrite them.
Them umm, those hundred's of batteries?
They say those hundred batteries, let's say they had a cumulative and energy capacity
of a MW hour.
OK, so each of the batteries had 10 kilowatts and kilowatt hours, hundred of them mats
and MW hour.
OK, that was their initial new nominal specification.
Well, we average 70% return, so we can reuse 700 kilowatts of a MW of battery.
That was just disposed of, and I'm not talking about, you know, working doing this at
midnight in the crossroads, and this is easy, easy.
This is not even hard.
You just have to be careful and not electric.
Keep yourself, you know.
So and remember that the reason you did this to make the reason that you're asking
me is these questions is because when they actually got to it and take took a laptop
battery, took a an easy battery and said right, this thing says it's dead.
The BMS, which is the electronics and that controls the charge cycle and it said it's that,
so the battery's dead.
But open it up and and unfortunately the the other problem is is that I've never seen a
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battery.
And I don't think it's possible.
I you I doubt very much.
You ever see a battery in which somebody will say this is a fully used battery?
There you go.
Examine it and I cut it open and I test each of the cells and I find my God.
Each of the cells is completely dead.
Can't happen should happen when Mr Voltas started his experiments back in 1799.
Ohh yeah, that was happening because we had batteries with capacity of a tent and 100
of what we have today.
You know, Mr Volta had about 15 kilos of battery on his table and was able to get a wire
to spin.
And you know John Boxell great, great results.
You know we have the same weight of batteries on our table and we expect the scooter
to take for 50 miles.
So the amount of demands were making of the design.
That's insanely out to my mind.
Is where the fun begins, and most of my work comes from figuring out the best way,
the fastest way, the most efficient way to actually scalably test and reuse these.
Because as I said, Nissan Leaf battery dead constitute ground to get rid of to Germany
or Belgium wherever the shredded and safely disposed.
Or I can make 9 grand end of it.
That's the difference and and the two big other advantages that the EU doesn't talk
about, I run my business and I have to run my business as an economically viable and
probably for profit company.
Otherwise, I might as well call myself a charity and be another NGO that wastes time
and effort talking about doing something wonderful for the environment.
But actually just pushing, you know, lumps of metal around the place.
And my business has to make money, but the non balance sheet items, the reason that
people are going to do this is because every battery that I bring back for second life
service, I get double the CO2 and content of that battery as a credit.
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You know what that means?
So that means that the CO2 that is the CO2 calls the dot batteries construction is now
given back to me twice as a credit for bringing that battery pack into use.
So, aside from anything else, I'm gonna build up a vast a pile of carbon credits and, you
know, apparently they might be worth something.
And the other big advantage is that every boundary that I bring back to use and is the
battery that I deferred the purchase of for the same period.
So those are the other good reasons to do it.

Umm.
I1631:27
But mostly the EU is trying to ensure that, you know, it's like.
Seeing a car going to the scrap yard when you know that the car is only driven 10,000
miles.
Effectively, the EU has said right, you can use them up to about 100,000 miles.
They'd be ground and and the mark is gonna take a while to to adjust to that.
And what we're doing is we're trying to seamlessly take as many of the old batteries
into our system as quickly as we can turn them around, put them back out in low stress,
long life behind the meter uses and everybody gains access to cheaper energy.
And for it to give you an example of new cost compared to our cost, the Tesla
Powerwall and is a home buyer for usually used for solar PV and that will set you back
about 700 to 8.
Sorry.
Yeah, but 750 kWh.
So and that means that 13 kWh battery costs you.
That's a 9 grand, but I can store 13 kilowatts of energy every day and give that back to
you or give it back to the grid.
And our system supplied at that level to the home only costs 550.
So the and that's because Tesla's batteries are brand new.
406
And there are costing him approximately €3 each.
I'm getting mine mostly for free.
I have a cost to attach to make sure they're safe and viable for use.
You know, but that's my advantage.
And so yeah.

Yeah. Great.
Yeah.
And I'd love to actually struggle back.
And you know, you kind of briefly touched on your own work and and maybe if you
could tell us a little bit about any strategies or partnerships that you've considered to
facilitate the collection and repurposing of used electric vehicle batteries to whatever
extent you, you could talk about that?
I16 33:28
Yeah.
OK.
So today and car company, anybody who brings batteries into Ireland, be they for cars
or laptops or scooters, they all pay into a non governmental organization called we
Ireland.
And this is a producer's collective, and they're responsible for taking a a a tariff from
these companies for the batteries down ports, so that we can later collect an export
them.
And lot of flux in the marketplace as people are trying to make best use of these
batteries and batteries that are coming, you know to end of life apart from anything else
and Evie battery pack.
One of the reasons that I like working with EV battery packs over spurious batteries that
I'm getting from laptops and everything else is either all the same make and model B
the cells inside B.
They're all very heavily controlled and how they're used, and by the charge control
407
system that's inside those batteries, those battery systems and and in terms of our
experience though, and I've, I've tried to look at several applications for different types
of batteries and there isn't anywhere you can't use them except, as I said in transport,
because with transport, the whole point of a lithium battery is it's relative size and
weight for the amount of energy density that you're getting.
I can't provide the same trick.
My batteries will be bigger and bulkier and because I'm using more of them to provide
the same output.
So you know, I'll never compete on a smaller, faster, sexier type project.
But where you're looking for long life, low stress, and that's where those products
that's, that's where those products and those projects will win.
As I said before, there's other issues already existing in the in the battery marketplace.
Everybody's at fixated with lead.
Acid or sorry with lithium.
You know, whereas in most cases a lithium battery in normal service by the way, and is
only discharged to about 60%, you understand that you understand that aspect of by
how batteries are actually cycled.
So everybody talks about a lithium battery being 90% depth of discharge.
Yeah, it is on its own.
And put ten of them together.
No, you're not going to do that because you can't tell once you connect 5 or 10
batteries together in a string, you can't actually tell anything.
About one of those batteries, because we're all connected in the strength and they're
all subject to a flow of energy that, you know, goes across the loss of them.
So once let us our lithium batteries put into a big string, it's potential to be used to its
fullest extent is heavily restricted.
I mean, the Goldberg, the battery in your mobile phone is essentially the same as an
18650 class cell.
That battery in your phone can be controlled to within 2% of its actual charge status.
That's because there's only one of them.
OK.
408
In the larger phones are in the tablets where they're putting two cells together.
You're not getting double.
You're only getting about an extra 50% because against the extra capacity that they've
now given you, they have to drop.
They have to shrink the battery because they're no longer able to go to 90% full or
empty.
They have to go to 60% full or empty.
So today, people are making a calculation among the team can do because of its
energy density and its performance.
And then they're thinking great.
I'll stick that on the side of my house.
Like why, you know, put a Ferrari engine in a mini.
It's not gonna make the mini go any constant.
And you know, it'd be entertaining, but it won't get patient.
And so it's another thing, it's an education piece.
I would have to say that has to be put up.
If I were and I've been asked this before by various people, what's the most important
thing about people understanding batteries, education, and we seem to be much more
touchy feely about emotions than we are about stem.
And you know, that's just increasing the amount of people who are getting welded to
their battery packs because they don't know what to do.
And we've been asked and offered huge numbers of batteries that are coming from
dodgy sources or have been result of, you know, issues.
And then I can't deal with any of them.
I have to take batteries.
I can only take batteries from a legal source for which I am transferred liability because I
then take on the liability to use and destroy that battery.
So you know, if you're gonna do this properly, there's a huge amount of stuff you have
to consider.
And for me, the tactical challenge of doing this is the reason I'm doing it.
If I do it.
409
Properly and Europe will breeze with me.
Then I stand to make a bit of money.
Yay.
But you know, for the most part and the technical challenge of making better use of
something that we clearly know is being wasted.
Umm is is to me the technical challenge, the societal and the market fronted challenge
of getting people to understand that getting circularity to push this forward for the right
reasons.
And that's my mind far more difficult, you know.
Give me a hammer and a bit of physics and I'm a happy boy and give me 10 people to
convince about, you know, tying your shoelaces.
And I'd I'd rather do something else, cause it's, you know, I I recognize that different
people are better suited to different challenges.
And I think one of the things the circularity is gonna have to do is pick its avatars and
its promoter is very carefully so that they can effectively, you know.

That's again.
Sorry, John.
Last year, there again for seconds.
I16 39:33
Yeah.
And sorry, what did? Where?
Where did he?
Where did he get to?
Yeah, you just all disappeared to me there and about half a minute ago.
And so sorry.
Did that answer your question or did I?
Are you gonna have to circle back again?
410
No, no, no.
That was that was that was great and and something that you, you continue to touch
on and that we continue to see come up as well as this lack of Education and that kind
of seems to be the sort the source of and you know like a hindrance in in an uptake of
of batteries and BV 's and of everything really, and you kind of spoke a bit about the
challenges faced by society and like what the government can do and things like that,
but I suppose another aspect that I'd be.
I16 40:00
Umm.

Interested in hearing your thoughts on would be what role you think research initiatives
play in driving the technological advancements within the industry and you know I and I
suppose as an extension of that question, then who is the most important player in this?
I16 40:32
Ohh.
OK.
When it comes to the technical product like batteries, government are the most
important player.

Umm.
I16 40:45
In the same way that the European Union now defines Facebook's business model by
virtue of what I can and can't do, and Europe is already leading the way in terms of and
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hard science applied to real world users of batteries, and they're already doing far more
than most other countries to ensure that those batteries are responsibly used, not
oversold.
And not under appreciated.
Another concern is that EU has a list of materials that considers rare metals important
industrial metals and lithium, cobalt, copper, and those are, you know, fairly high up on
those lists.
And so.
In order to get people better appreciating the importance of circularity, longevity, and
there's a company that I work with called 0 Nash run by a guy called Paul.
Between me and it organizes bespoke doorstep collection of electronics.
So what it does is it goes on behalf of councils.
It sends a van around or it has an app.
As soon as somebody has a piece of electronics to drop and it turns up, collects it, and
because they do that, they get a laptop usually six months before it might have been
sold to a charity shop.
And the difference in value of that is quite large.
You know, if IT professionals and knows their job gets a laptop, rubs its cleans it,
updates us and then sells it on, that's that's a that's actually a nice little business model.
You know, if things are picked up Willy nilly from and jumble sale fare is, you know,
charity shops, most of the most of the product death has already happened and
because that's the other killer with a with all items as as batteries age, they tend to age
faster you know.
So uh that's why anybody who falls over is in their 80s. Not in the 70s.
You know, because when you're 70s, you're still just about mobile enough to stop from
tottering, whereas in your 80s you're gonna block it.
So you know it's the same with batteries that the only at the end of their life do they
really begin to start, you know, getting a bit wacked up.
If people are to make a change properly bat element of revaluing assets, revaluing
material items not just as bling but as actually tools for which to do things and that's
that's where you have to start.
412
Companies like 0 NET are already making a big difference in the economic reality of
making money out of second hand items in electronics.
Cuz second hand electronics historically have been very bad things to try and make
money out of.
The only reason you're getting rid of your phone is because it's not working.
Or is it much faster, which makes your phone about as popular as a plague?
So you know that that's always been a problem.
So the rate of change and the rate of expectation, but already you can see Apple have
had to bow to Europe and have had to allow their phones to be up or to to to be
serviced.
They stand to decade fighting this, but they're now selling components that allow third
party repair shops to open their phone safely because they have to.
If they wanna sell in Europe, they have to, you know, and that thing again, that that
little thing about and also on this phone, you know, on those mobile phones, you might
not remember this, but a couple of years ago they started removing headphone jacks
from phones.

Umm yeah.
I16 44:20
And this was to get everybody into their whole kind of USB C is fine.
Well, Europe is saying no and Asia is saying no.
Too many people like headphone jacks, so in in terms of making big difference to how
cars are made, how electronics are made.
Governments in Europe in particular, is and the biggest name in town and the reason
for that is very clear.
Europe has Germany, France and the UK to depend upon for empirical scientific data,
and it has type regulations that have worked and as a result, to give you an example,
BMW sold in America and two cars exactly the same.
Same year, same model, everything about them except one of these BMW's in America
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is in EU spec car.
Car the other car is built for the American market.
EU spec car is the third more expensive and it's only because of little things like the
color of the light, the quality of the seat belt, you know, so the EU spec car had to be
built to be sold in Europe and you know that's why California and Europe are now
driving to change to East because California is the world's third, fourth, fifth biggest
market.
And if it says your car must be clean and then must know where the tires come from or
whatever, it's it happens to be then and Europe comma going.
Yep, I like your thinking, but in fact mostly what Europe does.
Europe.
Sorry, California looks at Europe goes.
That's where they're going.
And then it demands that of American producers.
So if you want to kind of guide people in the right way, get Europe to do it because
batteries are too technical to varied and too complex for me to come out or for anybody
to come out and go.
Ohh Bob, the builder approach.
Reuse, reuse, recycle.
It's not that simple.
If you do, I mean, Bob the Builder is a great example to people on the how to be
circular.
OK, it's a great concept.
It's simple, it's clear my English doesn't have to be great, and I understand that even if
the sound is down.
But you know I can't put Bob in place with a battery.
That that's a pack of nightmare, you know?
So and but at the same time he needs something like that.

Yeah, absolutely.
414
So the big thing there they are touching these polls is the need for standardization
really across different manufacturing processes.
I16 46:49
If you're. Yeah, I.
Well, I mean, boundaries are already very well, but are already very well made.

Umm.
I16 46:57
I mean, I continue to be stoned at the quality of batteries and I cut them open.
So I'm doing myself a danger if I do it improperly, but I know what I'm looking for now
and I can tell you for nothing that the quality of batteries today compared to 10 years
ago is like it's it's, it's it to me as somebody who's going to be pricking about with them
for ages.
It's it's, you know, thank God, because some of the things that I saw coming down the
line maybe 8-9 years ago from batteries that then were ten years old.
You know, I mean, and they were all bulging you know, I mean, it used to be a standard
feature of old battery packs that as soon as you compressed all the batteries.

Umm.
I16 47:34
Get them. Put a steel cable around them to stop them from swelling, which is not a
great idea, you know?
And but anyway.
415
Yeah.
And I'm just conscious of the time it's gonna check in with my teammates.
Do you have any questions that you wanted to ask?

I'm pretty much good here, actually, I think, yeah, we're getting a lot of.
This is definitely on the technical side of of what we've been doing.
It's funny too.
I was gonna say like, this is what would the route we wanted to go down initially and
we were told to become less technical actually with our projects.
So this has been extremely interesting to me, at least.
In particular, cuz it's everything I wanted to do, so I appreciate you talking with us
today.
I1648:15
What?
No, I mean all that I will say about batteries is that it's really, really easy.
We have a product in society that we're using 20% of and because we're getting a little
red light, we're going out pocket and throwing it away.
That causes fires that causes expense, and Europe is kind of gone.
Stopped that and started to put in regulations.
Now it's a great idea, and it's already been happening under the line and you know,
everywhere else.
It's why I said education and to your calling up in, in, in the 1st place because it scares
me how little people know about batteries.

Yeah.
I1648:53
416
When we took batteries apart from uh London bus, when we opened up those boxes
and start expose ourselves to those batteries, those batteries are in a live wired
connection that, you know, sets off at 800 votes.
If you drop the spinner on those batteries, it'll just get welded.
You know, to the batteries, so will humans.

Yeah.
I1649:14
These are dangerous things and you know, I've seen.

Umm.
I16 49:18
I've been shown.
I've walked out of meetings where people were saying ohh we did this and I think
you're lunatics.
Get out.
I'm not a qualified and engineer.
I'm not a, you know, I didn't go to college and study science, but, you know, I burnt my
finger in up and I still have my hands.
So, you know, I know I know enough to know what is achievable and what is a good
idea.
Batteries being reused has to happen because it's a vast amount of waste and we don't
have the access to the raw materials to get enough new stuff.
It's also very important because it pushes people to change the way they think about
this stuff and, you know, change is good and education is great.
417
Yeah.
I16 49:59
But if you don't have standards that can't be avoided, you know you're always gonna.

Yeah.
Would you say like there's a tellement of of like voting with your dollars here?
So like kids going out and buying their their vapes, but you know they're not
considering, you know, the the lifeline used to it.
I16 50:14
Yeah.

They're not.
It's not part of it, so I imagine that would be one of the education parts of it.
I16 50:17
Yeah, I.

It's just making sure they understand the value in that they're throwing away when they
suppose away once a month, yeah.
I16 50:24
And and again I see vape pens scattered all over the place.
I see little blue flashing lights in in the gutters at night, indicating at least 10 frigging 10
418
EUR 6 year old vape items.
Just cast Eric, cause the lad can't suck anymore.
Cherry out of it.
I mean, it's insane.

Correct.
I1650:41
I'm not saying people should go back to smoking.
Smoking wasn't good for you.
Look cool, but it was bad.
And this is, you know, vaping is I as an older person, I don't understand it.
And I I'm sitting in a car and I see the person sitting beside me in the in another car,
and I can't actually see that person because they're in a crowd, you know, that doesn't.
That doesn't give me an awful lot of confidence, but you're right.

Sure.
I1651:04
The bait pen is an example of what is wrong in society.
We have a highly advanced, highly beautifully technically dedicate that, if used properly
on a satellite, could provide service for who a decade.

Right.
Yeah.
I1651:19
419
But because Billy, a 15 year old ***** teenager, has it is going to be used for, you know,
half an hour or two a day and that's it.

Right, right.
I1651:27
And that amount of waste that built in plastic electronics, chemicals and you know, it's
an utterly ridiculous waste.
Another simple issue as well with the bait pens and the electronics on bait pens are
insanely small.

Yeah.
I1651:44
OK, because they do very little.
The cheaper the vape pen, the higher the risk it has of spontaneous combustion.

Umm.
I1651:53
So you know what I mean?
So there's there's no way not making these things cheaper and smaller and more
accessible is good.
And if society can get that message out of circularity, you know, there's no such thing
as a free lunch.
Then something has been achieved, as I said when I started this, I was all for public
facing engagement.
420
Yeah.
I16 52:13
Teach people about batteries.
Encourage them to look at what they're doing and how to do it better.
Sorry, don't have no time and you know that will be a generational learning that
happens.
It's the circularity is successful for the moment, though, you've got piles of batteries and
I see the most.

Yeah.
I16 52:31
It's I economically effective way of reusing them is piling them up.
Uh, trying to make containers and safely using them behind the meter.

Yeah.
I1652:46
Wrong.

Thing ohh, there you are. Yeah.
I1652:49
But you know something that could be made right anyway.
421
Sorry, it's froze for 2nd.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's brilliant.
Thank you so much for your time.
You're very good.

Thank you, John.

Took an hour out of your day for us.
I16 53:00
No worries, no worries.

Thank you.
I16 53:03
And no, no, it's OK.
I mean, I normally I'm trying to sell stuff to government people and I have to keep a
straight face and you know, uh knock, knock something out the camera.
And because, you know, dealing with policy advisors and dealing with people who to
whom batteries are just a problem, they have to deal with, they come to me and they
422
go.
So what do I do?
You know what battery do I buy?
You know, I mean, what do you want to do?
And, you know, people are still at that level.
Government advisers are asking me what should we buy?
Should we buy let acid?
Should we buy lithium?
Well, what are you doing with?
You know, there's there's there's a huge educational piece there that we have to get our
head around and and education people, scientific people.

Yeah.

Umm.
I16 53:46
Uh, I've noticed there is another problem in government I notice and I don't know if this
is something that you're aware of, but it's something that I as a technical person have
come upon.
Is that stem used to be the staple of Ireland?
Academic.
Yeah, background, I said.
You know, our our science was our strong point.
We were great literature, but we're always gonna ******** and.
But you know, our science has been taught.
I bounded the ability of people to understand science in the last 10 years has dropped
dramatically.
423
Umm.
I16 54:16
It's actually scary.

Umm.
I16 54:18
You know, I I used to get people written explanations.
Then I would just reduced it to showing them pictures and because it got so frustrating
because people's ability to think critically to think analytically disappeared, and it's even
when I'm employing people, I have to get them to do a physical piece of work.

Umm.
I16 54:38
I have to get an electrician or a technician to sit down with a soldering iron and prove
to me that they can do what they do because I've been lied to so many people that
white people who should know I had a I had a a an African lad in three weeks ago.

And.
I16 54:54
Who
424
You know nearly killed himself because he worked up the battery room even though he
was an electrician.

Move.
I16 55:01
So you know, that's another thing in the background I'm concerned about, but that's
why I'm tending to stay away from projects that are too public facing.
There's an education piece that will take about a decade to do, and then people will be
saved for pastries.
Until then, if they want to learn about them happy days, they're not actually that
difficult.
Electrochemical processes are about as simple as it gets, you know.
Starts with the Leaf, works its way up and so I think there's an awful lot of hope, and
we're only at beginning to scratch the surface of what's on offer.

Umm.
I16 55:31
And but my my my fear is the educational pieces which which is why I keep coming
back to it.
And there is neither the temperament nor the the correct styling of information given
to people for them to be able to make decisions.

Sure.
425
Yeah.
I16 55:47
And if you put the wrong sticker on something, God, you're that you know.
And and that's the other thing.
People depend too much on what they read without critically thinking about what it is
they're reading, you know?
So that's just personal commentary.

Sure.
I16 56:01
Yeah.
Wouldn't like to kind of, you know, impinge on any of my fellow countrymen, but that's
what I say.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely brilliant stuff.

Yeah.
Thanks.
426
That was really, really interesting.

Thanks again.

You gave us a load to to think about and to sift through.
So thank you so much for that.

Absolutely.
I1656:17
No worries.
If you find any further questions, just email me and I do very little of this type of stuff.

Thank you.
I16 56:24
I get asked a lot to advise on different technologies and I'm happy to do that.
My charge with that?
That's that's.
That's what I'm making.
Income.

Umm.
427
I16 56:33
What part of how making it come?
But I tend not to get involved in this too much because to be honest, there's no point
me trying to present myself as in the expression in to a room of people who are still
learning about positive and negative in terms of an electrical currency.

Yeah.
I16 56:50
I'm not saying I'm wonderful.
They're idiots.
But you know, I've been down the rabbit hole for a decade and coming back up and
trying to explain to people what the difference between.
Positive and negative is, so, you know, puts a bit of gap between US and.

Sure.
I16 57:04
But you know, if you got any other questions and the matter how specific they are, if I
can't help you, I should be able to push you onto somebody who can.

Thank you so much.

Trillions.
428
Thanks again.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're very good.
Thanks so much for that.
I16 57:16
Alright, OK.

Thanks.
I16 57:17
Have a good day picture.

OK.

Alright.
429
Bye.

Thanks, John.

You too.
Thank you. Aye.

Have a good day.
Thank you.
I16left the meeting
Kevin Codd (Umail) left the meeting
Mary Kathleen O Brien (Umail) left the meeting
Colin Steven Guimond (Umail) stopped transcription
Transcript for I4
Transcript
430
00:00:03 Speaker 1
Interventions that would increase the sustainability of those places so worked in cities like
Austin, Dallas, LA.
00:00:17 Speaker 1
Fort McMurray, Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver.
00:00:23 Speaker 1
And a variety.
00:00:24 Speaker 1
And host of others doing sustainable development, type advisory services and then came back to
Ireland in 2020 and took on the head of sustainability role within the UI in Ireland.
00:00:35 Speaker 1
Which covers the campus.
00:00:37 Speaker 1
And also my background is infrastructure, so I did a lot of work on on that kind of public
transport EV's and the variety and sundry in between. So hopefully hopefully can be some
service here on on the research project. So.
00:00:53 Speaker 1
I'll hand it over to you.
00:00:53 Speaker 2
And I'll do my best.
00:00:55 Speaker 2
No, that, that's amazing that.
00:00:57 Speaker 2
That's really that's really cool.
00:00:58 Speaker 2
00:00:59 Speaker 2
00:00:59 Speaker 2
431
It's funny, I, you know, lived over there for my all my life until I was 20.
00:01:03 Speaker 2
I've been on the plane until I until I came to Ireland to live here when I was 27.
00:01:07 Speaker 2
Whenever that was 28. So yeah, the fact that you traveled all around there way more than I did.
And even though I lived there for all that time, that's that's pretty amazing.
00:01:15 Speaker 2
OK.
00:01:16 Speaker 2
So yeah, we'll jump into it.
00:01:17 Speaker 2
So the first question is kind of just.
00:01:18 Speaker 2
Broad sustainability so.
00:01:21 Speaker 2
What practices are in place to assess like E's or your organization sustainability goals?
00:01:28 Speaker 1
What practices are in place?
00:01:30 Speaker 1
So we've established a
00:01:31 Speaker 1
Set of KPI's.
00:01:35 Speaker 1
The the kind of the three pillars, let's say, of sustainability.
00:01:42 Speaker 1
According to to various different frameworks, but look at economic, social and and then
environment.
00:01:53 Speaker 1
432
Annually we review.
00:01:55 Speaker 1
Our progress against those KPI's, it's externally verified and published in our transparency report,
which is if you want.
00:02:04 Speaker 1
To Google it.
00:02:04 Speaker 1
Afterwards you can go UI and transparency report that.
00:02:08 Speaker 1
Will bring you to.
00:02:09 Speaker 1
To that, we're generally setting those KPIs in line with established frameworks like the WPF
framework or the WRI framework or the GUI framework, or various and sundry in
between.
00:02:28 Speaker 1
And that's all stemming from, I think our.
00:02:32 Speaker 1
2020 step to strategy where we decided we were going to.
00:02:36 Speaker 1
Be net 0 by 2025 and and everything else kind of came from that. In terms of goals and
ambitions in line with sustainability outcomes.
00:02:46 Speaker 2
00:02:47 Speaker 2
And it's funny thing too.
00:02:48 Speaker 2
I was looking at some of the the data on that yesterday about how, you know, obviously the
pandemic was terrible for many reasons.
00:02:54 Speaker 2
433
But then you look at, you know, emissions and emissions went down obviously way for 2020. So
you see all these trajectory and everything is going up and up and up.
00:03:01 Speaker 2
And then 2020 comes way down. So I'd like to see I it it ended in 2020. I didn't see where it's
gone.
00:03:07 Speaker 2
Since then, but I'd like to see with.
00:03:08 Speaker 2
The last couple of years have gone, if we.
00:03:10 Speaker 2
Plateaued a bit, or if it's immediately shot back up and we solve this like whereas 2023 leading
us, really, yeah.
00:03:16 Speaker 1
No, no, the emissions definitely rebounded when we reopened.
00:03:20 Speaker 1
Yeah, sure.
00:03:22 Speaker 1
But they didn't bounce back to where they could have been.
00:03:26 Speaker 1
So like our, we've established carbon budgets by service line.
00:03:30 Speaker 1
And here in Ireland and then globally, there is carbon budgets that have been given down to each
of.
00:03:36 Speaker 1
The practices so.
00:03:37 Speaker 1
Like Ireland as a carbon budget given to it by EY globally.
00:03:43 Speaker 1
And like fundamentally, the goal is to.
434
00:03:46 Speaker 1
Be within it or or lower you know, you know you know.
00:03:49 Speaker 1
How the concept works?
00:03:51 Speaker 1
So the carbon budgets track a pathway from 2019 to 2025, which is this kind of steady decrease.
But obviously in 2020 we we ended up dropping to almost 40% of our emission profile.
00:04:06 Speaker 1
And so the goal has actually.
00:04:07 Speaker 1
Been to suppress the.
00:04:08 Speaker 1
Bounce, you know? So in 2021, we didn't really have to suppress it.
00:04:13 Speaker 1
That much because it really wasn't fully.
00:04:14 Speaker 1
Open but in 2020.
00:04:16 Speaker 1
Two it was.
00:04:18 Speaker 1
Like we changed our travel system, for example.
00:04:20 Speaker 1
So you need double line of approval if you want to book a business class seat.
00:04:25 Speaker 1
If you want to book a return flight on the same day of travel, you need a double.
00:04:30 Speaker 1
You need a double authorization and the idea of those things are to stop people to to, to make
people pause.
435
00:04:38 Speaker 1
We're booking travel and also to to test whether that carbon budget allowance will be exceeded
or not.
00:04:46 Speaker 1
So yes, it's a different.
00:04:47 Speaker 1
Challenge. We're actually trying to.
00:04:49 Speaker 1
Make sure we don't come up.
00:04:51 Speaker 1
We're coming.
00:04:52 Speaker 1
Up to our net zero target as opposed.
00:04:54 Speaker 1
To coming down to it.
00:04:56 Speaker 1
Which is kind of a strange.
00:04:57 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's funny too. So I think I read on the website as well where it said you guys, you guys
were your goal is to be carbon neutral by 2025.
00:04:57 Speaker 1
Strange place to be.
00:05:03 Speaker 2
That's that's what it was, right?
00:05:05 Speaker 2
But you guys?
00:05:05 Speaker 2
Were already carbon.
436
00:05:07 Speaker 2
Negative or.
00:05:08 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:09 Speaker 2
You're so.
00:05:10 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's so funny.
00:05:11 Speaker 2
So it's just to make try to make sure to keep things.
00:05:13 Speaker 2
In place to keep it, keep it below that level.
00:05:15
Yeah, well.
00:05:16 Speaker 1
So we will achieve 2020.
00:05:19 Speaker 1
But we will also be.
00:05:20 Speaker 1
Carbon negative.
00:05:21 Speaker 1
Yeah, zero is kind of an absolute target that we have to meet on our mission profile in order to be
considered net zero on the on the environment and think carbon negative.
00:05:33 Speaker 1
Anybody can achieve that by just pumping more money into offsets and.
00:05:37 Speaker 2
Right.
00:05:38 Speaker 2
437
Which is also like kept part of the problem in sustainability projects in general.
00:05:41 Speaker 2
It's like people do a bunch of bad stuff and then they'll say, oh, we'll fix this by just buying, you
know, bunch of trees to plant, like, that's that's offsets it.
00:05:49 Speaker 2
Right.
00:05:49 Speaker 2
Well, not really.
00:05:50 Speaker 2
You didn't have.
00:05:50 Speaker 2
To do the bad thing in the 1st place, yeah.
00:05:52 Speaker 1
That's why net zero was the.
00:05:54 Speaker 2
Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. OK. So I don't know how much experience you have in like
circular economy or anything, but that that was in question #2 for you here. So is the
circular economy of electric vehicles, an area which is actively discussed?
00:06:09
No, no.
00:06:13 Speaker 1
And and I'm mainly reacting to the actively discussed piece.
00:06:20 Speaker 1
For practitioners, so I have a lot of.
00:06:22 Speaker 1
Experience in circular economy that.
00:06:26 Speaker 1
You will find.
00:06:26 Speaker 1
438
Actually that some of the car makers now are starting to advertise the amount of recycled content
that is in their vehicles.
00:06:34 Speaker 1
As a starting point, and there's new one at the moment that's being advertised and it's got like 130
KG's of recycled content in the vehicle, right, but that we're really talking about upholstery
metals, things like that.
00:06:48
More often than.
00:06:49 Speaker 1
Not in calling and put words in your guys mouth.
00:06:52 Speaker 1
You're asking me about the circular economy of the battery.
00:06:56 Speaker 2
I mean, I'd say because that's, you know the whatever it is, how percentage of the value derived
in the car, that's like a huge portion.
00:07:03 Speaker 2
So it's.
00:07:03 Speaker 2
A. If it's. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:04 Speaker 1
It's about 50% or 50.
00:07:06 Speaker 1
Percent of the current footprint of the electric vehicles and the battery, and the other 50% is in
the.
00:07:11 Speaker 1
The rest of the car.
00:07:12
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:14 Speaker 1
439
So and.
00:07:16 Speaker 1
And you'll you'll see an awful lot.
00:07:18 Speaker 1
Of articles, but we.
00:07:19 Speaker 1
Don't know we're going to do these batteries.
00:07:20 Speaker 1
You know, what's their end of life?
00:07:22 Speaker 1
What's all that kind of carry?
00:07:23 Speaker 1
On, and so on.
00:07:24 Speaker 1
And so forth. And it's legitimate because early age and electric vehicles like the 2013, 2014
verse.
00:07:33 Speaker 1
They were so few.
00:07:35 Speaker 1
That there really was no incentive to create an economy around circularizing that those batteries
right now we're in a completely different scenario now.
00:07:45 Speaker 1
So these batteries will be put into vehicles with a guaranteed performance life of 10 years, and
the secondary use cases.
00:07:56 Speaker 1
Battery are numerous, including stacking them for on site solar generation like charging the
batteries and then using.
00:08:03 Speaker 1
Them in your home.
440
00:08:05 Speaker 1
To a variety of other use cases that just don't need to have the performance of an electric vehicle
in terms of pulling power out of the battery, but would be quite useful as batteries in other
scenarios helping us to.
00:08:21 Speaker 1
Decarbonized even further with.
00:08:24 Speaker 1
The likes of solar and.
00:08:25 Speaker 1
Wind and and and so on and so.
00:08:26 Speaker 1
Forth. So we would.
00:08:29 Speaker 1
Firmly believe that.
00:08:32 Speaker 1
There's going to be value in those batteries at.
00:08:36 Speaker 1
Their end of life for cars.
00:08:40 Speaker 1
When they're no longer good for propulsion but they are still good as energy stores and as use
cases...most in practice would not see a situation where we are devolving the battery
components and trying to extract lithium...it's really more about second life batteries
00:09:08 Speaker 1
Battery use use case here versus battery use case another.
00:09:12 Speaker 1
So in theory, even that is still kicking the ultimate.
00:09:17 Speaker 1
Can down the.
00:09:18 Speaker 1
441
Road terms of.
00:09:20 Speaker 1
Eventually it won't have uses a battery.
00:09:22 Speaker 1
And then are.
00:09:22 Speaker 1
We into the kind of challenges we have currently with battery recycling like battery recycling.
Right now, just your your AA's are.
00:09:32 Speaker 1
Could reside in Prospect, right?
00:09:34 Speaker 1
Right.
00:09:34 Speaker 1
And the industry needs to tackle that.
00:09:37 Speaker 1
Like they they really.
00:09:38 Speaker 1
Do need to tackle just the.
00:09:40 Speaker 1
The scale I suppose that's coming along with the other side of this is there's there's need.
00:09:46 Speaker 1
Right.
00:09:47 Speaker 1
So the more we electrify.
00:09:50 Speaker 1
Then the the more costly it is to extract the raw material, so there is actually in our current
projected future now situations where lithium could become difficult to to to gain, which of
course will drive industry now that is active to lithium captive to batteries, it will drive
them into.
442
00:10:10 Speaker 1
The recycling, refurbishment kind of consideration in a big way so.
00:10:13 Speaker 1
Yeah, I suppose the.
00:10:14 Speaker 1
Past isn't the good.
00:10:15 Speaker 1
Blueprint for the future here.
00:10:16 Speaker 1
Because the economics are continually changing.
00:10:20 Speaker 1
And the amount of investment attention.
00:10:26 Speaker 1
Momentum in the industry it is.
00:10:29 Speaker 1
Significant to to solve this like I have seen certain recyclers now today are piloting.
00:10:36 Speaker 1
Kind of innovative recycling processes on solar panels on batteries, on things that they never
invested in before, mainly because they can see a situation 20 years from now where it's
going to be business.
00:10:51
Yeah, it's going and.
00:10:51 Speaker 1
It's going to be big business.
00:10:53 Speaker 1
And that's very different to to what we probably.
00:10:56 Speaker 1
Would have seen in the past.
443
00:10:58 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:59 Speaker 2
So like that was, I had a second part of that question, which was asking about all the barriers and
challenges anticipated in the scaling up of renewable energy resources.
00:11:07 Speaker 2
But you kind of kind of covered a lot of that, all the lot of barriers and challenges, yeah.
00:11:13 Speaker 1
Like there be a tipping point in the barriers or challenges like the ultimate one is fundamentally
we're in A2 track economy at the moment.
00:11:20 Speaker 1
And we probably will be.
00:11:22 Speaker 1
For probably another 5-6, seven years where?
00:11:26 Speaker 1
The old stuff still.
00:11:29 Speaker 1
While we're doing all this new stuff.
00:11:31 Speaker 1
We'll still have ice vehicles.
00:11:32 Speaker 1
And electric vehicles, we're.
00:11:34 Speaker 1
Going to have.
00:11:37 Speaker 1
You know, normal fireplaces and houses and we're.
00:11:40 Speaker 1
Going to have heat pumps, you know, and there's going to be this kind of.
444
00:11:43 Speaker 1
Tipping point, though, where the majority becomes the up, the new thing, right?
00:11:49 Speaker 1
So can we achieve that tipping point you're going to start finding that actually it's very difficult to
get a mechanic.
00:11:56 Speaker 1
To work on your old ice vehicle, for example, you're gonna actually find that there's less petrol
pumps for your petrol.
00:12:02 Speaker 1
Car and there's.
00:12:03 Speaker 1
Going to be more EV charging facilities.
00:12:06 Speaker 1
And and and.
00:12:07 Speaker 1
A whole host of disruptors that come along with being.
00:12:11
Here in the.
00:12:11 Speaker 1
Economy at that tipping point where you know it's just really difficult to live the old way.
00:12:18 Speaker 1
Because we've now tripped over. But today like 2023.
00:12:22 Speaker 1
It's still very.
00:12:23 Speaker 1
Viable to live the old way as much as it is.
00:12:26 Speaker 1
To live the new way.
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00:12:28 Speaker 1
But once we hit.
00:12:29 Speaker 1
That tipping point?
00:12:31 Speaker 1
An awful lot of that, that.
00:12:33 Speaker 1
I suppose the inertia, the barrier of inertia would be removed because you will have no choice.
00:12:38 Speaker 1
The next car you buy will have to be.
00:12:40 Speaker 1
Because it's just not possible.
00:12:42 Speaker 1
Or it's not as convenient anymore.
00:12:44 Speaker 1
To have the other thing, etcetera, etcetera.
00:12:46 Speaker 2
Yeah, totally.
00:12:48 Speaker 2
That's so interesting.
00:12:50 Speaker 2
OK.
00:12:51 Speaker 2
Question 3 then how would you engage relevant stakeholders such as electric vehicle
manufacturers, policymakers and consumers in implementing sustainable practices?
00:13:09 Speaker 1
So everything has.
00:13:12 Speaker 1
446
Everything has a timing that's actually correct for it, and then there's a timing outside of that that
is not correct.
00:13:20 Speaker 1
It's either too early or too late.
00:13:22 Speaker 1
Or whatever it might be, so a.
00:13:24 Speaker 1
I'm a firm believer in the idea that you have to have this dialogue regularly, but all of them will
be too early until you get to the point where it's the right conversation at the right time
00:13:44 Speaker 1
It's almost like the hedge is have the conversations now have the dialect now, even though it
might feel like a waste of time.
00:13:52 Speaker 1
But as you're having them regularly then.
00:13:53 Speaker 1
You won't miss the point.
00:13:55 Speaker 1
Where it was important to have the conversation.
00:13:58 Speaker 1
So I take the example of let me take an.
00:14:01 Speaker 1
Example there'd be.
00:14:03 Speaker 1
Regular conversations, let's say about climate change and about the need for the circular
economy and about the need for decarbonization right through the 2000s.
00:14:13 Speaker 1
Right. Like you can go and you can find news articles about, you know, radical decarbonization
technologies 20-30 years ago, et cetera, et cetera.
00:14:21 Speaker 1
447
And they were great conversations, but no one was ready for them.
00:14:26 Speaker 1
Everything else in the world.
00:14:27 Speaker 1
Made no sense to have that conversation, right. And we started having a conversation in this
country in 2019.
00:14:35 Speaker 1
And it was still probably a year or two early.
00:14:38 Speaker 1
In the kind of national dialogue, everybody getting on about it and all the rest of it, but you could
see.
00:14:45 Speaker 1
That as of 2022?
00:14:47 Speaker 1
the dialogue has gone from scepticism to ‘what's the implication of this’
00:14:56 Speaker 1
What it's going.
00:14:57 Speaker 1
To be like.
00:14:58 Speaker 1
And we're moving the national dialogue.
00:15:00 Speaker 1
Forward each time in terms of awareness.
00:15:03 Speaker 1
And the implication?
00:15:05 Speaker 1
The opportunities, the issues, et cetera associated with the transition.
00:15:10
448
We wouldn't been able to.
00:15:11 Speaker 1
Have conversations about the circular economy.
00:15:13 Speaker 1
Of the battery two or three years.
00:15:14 Speaker 1
Ago, just when I'm ready.
00:15:16 Speaker 1
For it, we were very ready.
00:15:17 Speaker 1
For what is decarbonization, we're barely.
00:15:20 Speaker 1
This country is barely.
00:15:22 Speaker 1
Are you ready for the fact that you know we're?
00:15:24 Speaker 1
Trying to get to 80%.
00:15:25 Speaker 1
Renewables, you know.
00:15:27 Speaker 1
We were objecting to wind farms.
00:15:28 Speaker 1
And stuff like that.
00:15:29 Speaker 1
Although through to 2010.
00:15:31 Speaker 1
And stuff. So yeah.
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00:15:34 Speaker 1
How would build a national dialogue with stakeholders, right.
00:15:38 Speaker 1
You obviously have to create.
00:15:39 Speaker 1
For for all.
00:15:40 Speaker 1
Of them to be able to participate, they need to be able to.
00:15:43 Speaker 1
Participate individually and collectively.
00:15:45 Speaker 1
So you need to create forms where you can get individual issues out on the table as well or
individual grouping of issues on the table as well as collective forum.
00:15:54 Speaker 1
To I suppose tree edge and solution and and and kind of dialogue and innovation and things like
that.
00:16:01
OK, OK.
00:16:02 Speaker 1
But the most import.
00:16:04 Speaker 1
Is frequency, so you cannot say something like this up and say we're going to talk about.
00:16:10 Speaker 1
It once a year.
00:16:12 Speaker 1
Like it really does need to be a commitment to a conversation, yeah.
00:16:18 Speaker 1
You know, at a regular high frequency and the the trouble we're having with national.
450
00:16:24 Speaker 1
That kind of forms and stuff like that, that once.
00:16:27 Speaker 1
So you know, they become big news for couple of weeks in the newspapers and stuff like that.
00:16:32 Speaker 1
And then they're they're gone again and tell we come back and we talk about it again a year
from.
00:16:37 Speaker 1
Now and the problem is normally the dialogue is negative, right?
00:16:42 Speaker 1
Because we're already dealing with.
00:16:43 Speaker 1
Once a year.
00:16:44 Speaker 1
Everybody feels the need to remind everybody.
00:16:47 Speaker 1
But all the world is on fire and how we've messed this up for the last 30.
00:16:50 Speaker 1
Years and so.
00:16:50 Speaker 1
On, and so forth, and every conversation starts with.
00:16:53 Speaker 1
That instead of continuing the conversation.
00:16:58 Speaker 1
Regularly so you don't have to keep reminding people
00:17:00 Speaker 1
People about how.
00:17:01 Speaker 1
451
Funky, we are etcetera, etcetera.
00:17:03 Speaker 1
We actually just start with.
00:17:04 Speaker 1
OK, let's we talked about that last.
00:17:06 Speaker 1
Let's keep going now.
00:17:07 Speaker 1
We keep moving into the into.
00:17:08 Speaker 1
The next stage right. So.
00:17:11 Speaker 1
That will be the.
00:17:12 Speaker 1
Key to design, in my view, Colin will be how do you build it for frequency as opposed to?
00:17:19 Speaker 1
You know these forum of of of 1 conversation a year.
00:17:23 Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. It needs to be an ongoing dialogue and needs to be kind of folded into the fabric of
of your day-to-day life in a way.
00:17:30 Speaker 2
If you know if your of your of.
00:17:32 Speaker 2
Your yeah, of all the choices you make and needs to be needs to be involved.
00:17:36 Speaker 2
So sustainability in general I think is is is such an invogue term right now.
00:17:40 Speaker 2
It's almost kind of.
452
00:17:41 Speaker 2
Lost its meaning like it's just like.
00:17:44 Speaker 2
What does that?
00:17:44 Speaker 2
Does that even mean so?
00:17:46 Speaker 2
Yeah, I think.
00:17:47 Speaker 1
And there is people just using it.
00:17:48 Speaker 1
In the Harvard dictionary.
00:17:49 Speaker 1
Kind of view of sustainable as well, like there are people that basically just saying something is
sustainable without actually meaning the sustainable development goals are sustainability
in the context of.
00:18:01 Speaker 1
Climate or environment? They're just.
00:18:03 Speaker 1
Saying my business is sustainable.
00:18:05 Speaker 1
I like it, won't.
00:18:06 Speaker 1
It's a.
00:18:07 Speaker 1
Going concern right in the counting like you know.
00:18:09 Speaker 1
What I mean?
453
00:18:11 Speaker 1
So yeah, there's a.
00:18:11 Speaker 1
Lot of.
00:18:12 Speaker 1
There's a lot of.
00:18:14 Speaker 1
Say what you mean is kind of necessary in the conversation at.
00:18:18 Speaker 2
The moment. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:21 Speaker 2
OK, so in your opinion, which of course, yeah, what are the key challenges and opportunities in
developing A framework that promotes sustainable practices in the electric vehicle
ecosystem?
00:18:38 Speaker 1
But the key challenges.
00:18:41 Speaker 2
Yeah, key challenges and opportunities.
00:18:43 Speaker 2
So yeah, like part of part of this obviously like our goal is to develop a framework that it's kind
of holistic.
00:18:51 Speaker 2
It's kind of trying to capture all the things, all the elements of what we're trying to discuss.
00:18:55 Speaker 2
It's a lot of it's juggling.
00:18:57 Speaker 2
Many pieces but.
00:18:59 Speaker 1
Well, actually that, that, that kind.
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00:19:00 Speaker 1
Of gives you a bit of your answer.
00:19:02 Speaker 1
In my opinion.
00:19:03 Speaker 1
The challenge of designing A framework is.
00:19:06 Speaker 1
There are multiple use cases, multiple actors.
00:19:11 Speaker 1
Which multiple?
00:19:18 Speaker 1
In the ecosystem, so from the manufacturers who have.
00:19:26 Speaker 1
Built a bunch of.
00:19:28 Speaker 1
PHEV's that they need to.
00:19:30 Speaker 1
Sell before they want you to buy your your bed vehicles, which you know then they want you to.
00:19:36 Speaker 1
They want you to buy they.
00:19:37 Speaker 1
Want you?
00:19:37 Speaker 1
To sell to four court operators and and places refueling centers, shall we say.
00:19:47 Speaker 1
And what their?
00:19:48 Speaker 1
455
Goals and objectives are in terms of.
00:19:51 Speaker 1
You know, monetizing your visit fundamentally to to refuel.
00:20:00 Speaker 1
To the other charging ecosystem elements like your your Chargers in local local authorities to.
00:20:09 Speaker 1
Your your sports grounds.
00:20:11 Speaker 1
Or hotels and all that kind of all that kind of stuff.
00:20:15 Speaker 1
All while being under this kind of tension and pressure of we, we we don't actually want you to
buy an EV or to drink. We prefer about 20 to 30% less kilometers.
00:20:27 Speaker 1
To be driven so.
00:20:29 Speaker 1
You know, there's a lot of there's.
00:20:30 Speaker 1
A lot of good work going on inside the city at the moment, you know, trying to attack exactly
this.
00:20:36 Speaker 1
You know, this kind of idea about.
00:20:38 Speaker 1
Of a framework for sustainability EV ecosystem and.
00:20:43 Speaker 1
They haven't cracked.
00:20:44 Speaker 1
It or anything like that now by any means, because at the same time as creating such a
framework for something to be more sustainable, they're also trying to push the transition
as hard as possible to 20.
456
00:20:53 Speaker 1
30 because we need the decarbonization effect. So you kind of do have a bit of a catch 22 at the.
00:21:00 Speaker 1
Moment in terms.
00:21:01 Speaker 1
Of all of the pressures and motivations are.
00:21:04 Speaker 1
Get as many of these.
00:21:05 Speaker 1
Out on the road as possible.
00:21:07 Speaker 1
Right now, the government has set the goal to reduce the kilometers by about 20% by 2030 as
well, but.
00:21:14 Speaker 1
You know you're.
00:21:15 Speaker 1
Creating those two tension points, they're not necessarily joined up so.
00:21:21 Speaker 1
And we kind of cut right to the to the heart, sustainable EV framework would have sharing at the
heart of it.
00:21:29 Speaker 1
So it wouldn't have personal ownership in the heart of it.
00:21:32 Speaker 1
You know what I mean?
00:21:33 Speaker 1
Like, so.
00:21:34 Speaker 1
Not everyone in the world.
457
00:21:37 Speaker 1
Should or.
00:21:39 Speaker 1
Should it be college?
00:21:41 Speaker 1
To convert their ice vehicle to an EV, we should have less cars on the road at the end of this
transition.
00:21:47 Speaker 1
Than ever before.
00:21:49 Speaker 1
And the only way to.
00:21:50 Speaker 1
Do that is through a framework that actually.
00:21:52 Speaker 1
Moves more towards.
00:21:53 Speaker 1
A sharing model or a feed based model so.
00:21:57 Speaker 1
Pools of vehicles basically.
00:21:58 Speaker 1
Pools of EV's that people can call up.
00:22:01 Speaker 1
And utilize on a sharing basis.
00:22:03 Speaker 1
Is prop or the like public transport?
00:22:06 Speaker 1
Yes, micro mobility, yes etcetera, etcetera.
00:22:10 Speaker 1
458
But at its heart it's ownership.
00:22:13 Speaker 1
And if you think about.
00:22:15 Speaker 1
Our relationship to our existing ICE vehicles.
00:22:19 Speaker 1
We should be developing A framework that breaks that idea of individualized ownership of of
EPS. Somewhere along the way between between now and 2030. That's the only way we'll
actually get that effect of radically reducing the number of vehicles and the demand for
00:22:34 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:35 Speaker 2
I mean, yeah, I think that's about as as good of an answer as we can really hope for in that
question.
00:22:41 Speaker 2
We've asked that question a few number people and it's just, yeah, it's really there's there's a
million pieces too.
00:22:46 Speaker 2
But I think I like your idea of.
00:22:47 Speaker 2
Bringing it down to sharing.
00:22:48 Speaker 2
That's that's a.
00:22:50 Speaker 2
That's a nice insight.
00:22:52 Speaker 2
Kind of kind of going off of what you were saying there. So like we've talked a bit about fleet
management for EV's as well as battery leasing and battery swapping.
00:23:05 Speaker 2
459
Do you think there's any kind of future and battery leasing battery swapping for EV's? I mean
we've we've heard a couple different directions.
00:23:12 Speaker 2
From this so.
00:23:14 Speaker 1
And for personal vehicles, I just don't think.
00:23:18 Speaker 1
It's going to be necessary.
00:23:22 Speaker 1
The range performance of most of these RV's now is a point where that whole, like battery
swapping technology requirement is.
00:23:31 Speaker 1
Likely to be more infrastructure than than is warranted to be honest.
00:23:34 Speaker 2
Yeah. So.
00:23:36 Speaker 1
UM.
00:23:38 Speaker 1
The battery leasing concepts.
00:23:43 Speaker 1
I don't know, I think.
00:23:44 Speaker 1
It's going to.
00:23:46 Speaker 1
It can work if you get the sharing.
00:23:49 Speaker 1
Model. There you know.
00:23:50
460
So yeah.
00:23:52 Speaker 1
Like the nice thing about the sharing?
00:23:54 Speaker 1
Model is.
00:23:55 Speaker 1
I actually think that the the.
00:23:56 Speaker 1
Whole battery performance thing will start to get negated because if I'm just.
00:24:00 Speaker 1
Sharing a pool of vehicles.
00:24:02
Right.
00:24:03 Speaker 1
I'm less tied up in the fact.
00:24:05 Speaker 1
That the battery, that's.
00:24:06 Speaker 1
In there has reduced by 20% efficiency as long as it's still got the range that I need for my
journey. I'm just.
00:24:13 Speaker 1
Going to jump in.
00:24:14 Speaker 1
It and I'm going.
00:24:14 Speaker 1
To go because my own personal.
00:24:18 Speaker 1
APIs and performance isn't tied.
461
00:24:19 Speaker 1
Up in the vehicle anymore.
00:24:21 Speaker 1
The fact that the vehicle is.
00:24:24 Speaker 1
You know, degrade it or whatever.
00:24:26 Speaker 1
It doesn't matter.
00:24:27 Speaker 1
Not to the same extent.
00:24:28 Speaker 1
As when you own it yourself.
00:24:30 Speaker 1
Because you don't have that sense of.
00:24:32 Speaker 1
I own this depreciating asset anymore and the battery performance.
00:24:35 Speaker 1
So you're you're likely.
00:24:37 Speaker 1
To have, you're likely to have.
00:24:39 Speaker 1
Vehicles in circulation for much longer.
00:24:42 Speaker 1
Under a share pool.
00:24:48 Speaker 1
Vehicle design and OEM design right now, our personal vehicle would suggest that the battery
comes with the vehicle and refurbishment and stuff like that is.
00:24:56 Speaker 1
462
Going to be.
00:24:58 Speaker 1
It's going to be kind of expensive and.
00:25:01 Speaker 1
I don't know if the lease model.
00:25:03 Speaker 1
Really, lines up very well, like on a battery release basis.
00:25:08 Speaker 1
I'm not sure if it lines up really well.
00:25:11 Speaker 1
UM.
00:25:12 Speaker 1
And then.
00:25:15 Speaker 1
Yeah, that, that, that that would be.
00:25:17 Speaker 1
Sorry, I missed another one of the most of your question.
00:25:20 Speaker 1
Repeat it again and there was another part.
00:25:21 Speaker 1
Of that that I had.
00:25:22 Speaker 2
Ohh no no no worry.
00:25:24 Speaker 2
I I kind of made that up on the.
00:25:25 Speaker 2
Spot. I didn't actually have.
463
00:25:26 Speaker 2
That one in front of me.
00:25:27 Speaker 2
So yeah. Yeah, no, that.
00:25:29 Speaker 2
Was just basically. Yeah, just.
00:25:30 Speaker 2
About you know the battery leasing and battery swapping and trying to figure out there's there's a
way that works I.
00:25:36 Speaker 2
Did think a bit about, you know.
00:25:37 Speaker 1
Side swapping that that's.
00:25:39 Speaker 1
What I was going to say.
00:25:39 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:40 Speaker 1
Heavy, heavy goods vehicles that might be.
00:25:43 Speaker 1
That might very well be an industry in the battery swapping conversation.
00:25:48 Speaker 1
So you think about heavy, good freight and.
00:25:53 Speaker 1
You know a they're heavy goods anyway, so like.
00:25:55 Speaker 1
They're pulling into places that could.
00:25:58 Speaker 1
464
Have the infrastructure to lift out a big battery pack and drop in another big battery pack,
etcetera.
00:26:05 Speaker 1
They're obviously trucks, right?
00:26:06 Speaker 1
So that maybe they can.
00:26:07 Speaker 1
Createspace for battery packs to be kind of dropped off to the back along with the trailer, hook
up systems and stuff like that, so there's probably more viability in the heavy.
00:26:17 Speaker 1
Heavy goods, heavy duty, space for that.
00:26:20 Speaker 1
And that that.
00:26:21 Speaker 1
Will be under investigation and the other side of that.
00:26:24 Speaker 1
Would be, you know.
00:26:26 Speaker 1
The heavy goods drivers would say that the.
00:26:28 Speaker 1
Battery performance.
00:26:28 Speaker 1
Is 4 hours.
00:26:30 Speaker 1
They have an 8 hour shift.
00:26:31 Speaker 1
They don't want to be spending an hour now stuck on the charger.
00:26:33 Speaker 1
465
So yeah, you know, kind of again creates liability issues, so.
00:26:38 Speaker 1
That might be a player for them.
00:26:40 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:42 Speaker 2
One of the other interesting bits about that that I was it just occurred to me just now is the
difficulty that would come with the better releasing and battery swapping.
00:26:50 Speaker 2
Obviously you have to have some sort of standardization or it's going to be company by
company basis which causes a lot of immediate impediments, like being able to to scale
that up to make that useful, and having all of the.
00:27:00 Speaker 2
Infrastructure built to do all this is just it's a minefield. Yeah, yeah, I see. It's 1130 now. If you
have to go, that's OK, but otherwise, yeah.
00:27:10 Speaker 1
You can help me for another 5.
00:27:13 Speaker 1
Then we'll.
00:27:13 Speaker 1
Have to go.
00:27:14 Speaker 2
OK, perfect.
00:27:15 Speaker 2
OK, let me look at a couple of questions here and see.
00:27:17 Speaker 2
Which ones have the most?
00:27:20 Speaker 2
Most sauce.
466
00:27:21 Speaker 2
Most good, good juice.
00:27:26 Speaker 2
OK, so since obviously you have a lot of people been interviewing, you know, necessarily
haven't been in Ireland, so they don't have a lot of insights for Ireland in particular.
00:27:36 Speaker 2
So I I guess we can, we can say we've looked in different different technologies as well, so not
just PHEV's and BV's but also like hydrogen fuel cell we're we're kind of tiptoeing into
that a little bit. Just trying to see what people are thinking about the space setting. So where
do you see Ireland 10 years from?
00:27:54 Speaker 2
Now in terms of.
00:27:55 Speaker 2
The success or otherwise of transition to non fossil fuel, particularly in comparison to other
countries.
00:28:02
Ohh I think.
00:28:03 Speaker 1
We will do quite well.
00:28:09 Speaker 1
I can't know what the target.
00:28:10 Speaker 1
Is, but Once Upon a time.
00:28:11 Speaker 1
Is around 900,000 vehicles or.
00:28:13 Speaker 1
Something like that for 2030.
00:28:17 Speaker 1
What will start to happen in Ireland is just the size of our market.
467
00:28:21 Speaker 1
We're we're pure offtaker.
00:28:24 Speaker 1
Of of economics, so if the transition is going well in Germany and France and the UK, then the
availability of vehicles and the push here will will dictate that so.
00:28:37 Speaker 1
On the flip side, then, I think you know the the kind of the government policy push will will take
care of the rest of the ecosystem in terms of the transition.
00:28:47 Speaker 1
So I think it will be, I think it.
00:28:49 Speaker 1
Will go quite well, I think will be.
00:28:51 Speaker 1
We'll have a lot of Eva's on the road here by 20-30 and I'm not sure if the driving behavior side
of this will change as much between now and then.
00:29:04 Speaker 1
But then like.
00:29:05 Speaker 1
Ireland places really well in the context of renewables and innovative companies that are actually
exporting out into the EU and stuff.
00:29:14 Speaker 1
Like that.
00:29:15 Speaker 1
So I'd I'd be.
00:29:15 Speaker 1
I'd be kind of.
00:29:18 Speaker 1
I'd be cautiously optimistic, yeah.
00:29:21 Speaker 2
468
Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
00:29:24 Speaker 2
So obviously.
00:29:27 Speaker 2
Having you would imagine, then in the next 10 years, there's, I'm sure there's, I think Mary's.
00:29:31 Speaker 2
Actually talked about this, but I forget.
00:29:32 Speaker 2
What she said.
00:29:34 Speaker 2
About like infrastructure being built over the next 10 years to accommodate all those electric
00:29:39 Speaker 2
Do you think it would fall more of like a the model of like building gas station kind of style
charging stations or do you think it should be more of like a personal?
00:29:48 Speaker 2
Like people need to have home chargers that.
00:29:50 Speaker 2
That do this more so.
00:29:52 Speaker 1
Are we gonna really?
00:29:55 Speaker 1
Unique opportunity.
00:29:56 Speaker 1
In Ireland, we've an awful lot more house ownership as opposed to apartment ownership in our
mix, so I do believe that Ireland will have an awful lot of home charging. I think most
homes will have a home charger by 2030, whether they have EVs or not
00:30:24 Speaker 1
469
Then, with EV's and stuff like that, so you can see that that being a feature of our landscape,
yeah, but we'll absolutely have the, the four courts fueling station.
00:30:37 Speaker 1
Kind of situation as well like.
00:30:40 Speaker 1
Like, we've been an awful lot of fueling stations that are out there right now.
00:30:43 Speaker 1
Not every one of them is going to convert to to any TV station.
00:30:47 Speaker 1
It just won't happen with the grid connectivity and stuff like that, but like most of the most of the
major providers like the Apple green to the staircase and stuff like that, they already have
big plans to convert big areas of their four.
00:31:00 Speaker 1
Towards to EV and charging.
00:31:03 Speaker 1
So yeah, I think that'd be makes.
00:31:04
Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:06 Speaker 1
I don't know if we'll actually see stand alone.
00:31:10 Speaker 1
EV charging. Few of the cards, maybe one or two by 2030.
00:31:13 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:14 Speaker 1
OK, I can't imagine we'll have more back.
00:31:16 Speaker 2
I imagine a lot of parking lots are going to add them in, you know, just.
00:31:19 Speaker 2
470
A big parking lot.
00:31:19 Speaker 2
You can just throw a throw a few charging stations in there as well while you're going.
00:31:23 Speaker 2
To the shop.
00:31:25 Speaker 2
OK. So yeah.
00:31:26 Speaker 2
We have one minute left, so just want to say Thanks, Stephen.
00:31:28 Speaker 2
Appreciate you joining for this today.
00:31:31 Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely interesting.
00:31:33 Speaker 1
We'll go look at the project guys and the best of luck with everything.
00:31:35 Speaker 2
Thank you.
00:31:38 Speaker 2
Appreciate it.
00:31:39 Speaker 2
And thanks, Leo and Annie for setting everything up and everything.
00:31:42 Speaker 2
Appreciate you guys.
00:31:44 Speaker 2
Bye you later.
00:31:46 Speaker 2
Bye bye.
471
I10
0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:1.230
Just take two seconds.
0:0:2.770 --> 0:0:12.290
Yeah, OK. It's so perfect. So I guess that's the questions. And if there's ones that you can't
answer, that's fine. We can just move on and what not.
0:0:13.370 --> 0:0:20.970
So the first one is what practises are in place to assess the organization's sustainability goals.
0:0:24.280 --> 0:0:24.870
Thank you.
0:0:22.180 --> 0:0:44.830
I10
Oh, a huge amount because actually we we have a group sustainability framework for the
Phoenix group. So Standard Life International of which we are apart is owned by the
Phoenix Group who are the largest asset manager in or largest, sorry pensions and savings
provider in the UK.
0:0:50.960 --> 0:0:51.110
And.
0:0:44.910 --> 0:1:16.140
I10
Hey um, so it's a very, very big company and they take sustainability really seriously. So that
comes from their CEO down, whose anti bricks, but for probably since about 2018, the
business has embarked on a very serious sustainability strategy. Climate strategy, net zero
472
transition plan stewardship and engagement policies. And I suppose there's there's three
main areas.
0:1:16.240 --> 0:1:35.190
I10
That it falls under and the first of those is obviously investments and how we make a sustainable
investing and make the move towards sustainable investing across all of our portfolio.
When it comes to shareholder.
0:1:35.650 --> 0:2:5.610
I10
And our customers and our advisers, um, and I suppose with the in that as a whole heap of things
that you may have heard about in the industry like exclusions policies and like stewardship
and engagement with our asset manager providers, but also other I suppose goals which is
our our net zero goals so.
0:2:6.230 --> 0:2:29.440
I10
Basically, we recognise that we are on a journey um and that we want to be um net zero uh in our
investments by 2050 and our investments are the largest, I suppose contributor of
emissions across our business and to that's something that we're really really concentrating
on. So if you look within Ireland.
0:2:30.230 --> 0:3:1.600
I10
And we have a range of funds called Myfolio um active. So there's two types as my folio active,
my folio passive. So our funds are managed in this case by Aberdeen Asset Management
and we are moving those from Article 6 to 8. So actually moving a whole heap of our about
20% of our acid base towards sustainable funds over the next year. So there's there's a huge
amount of work going on.
0:3:1.720 --> 0:3:13.150
I10
But it is a journey cause you can't just switch off everything and switch it on overnight. Um. So
that's something that we're really conscious of and something that we're kind of living and
breathing every day.
0:3:13.970 --> 0:3:44.900
I10
473
And the the second part of that is or the second kind of pillar we work under is engagement and
customer engagement and customer education and inclusion. So we're really aware that
many people are coming into retirement but not understanding what it means to retire. So
within Standard Life, Ireland, if you have a look at our website, we do a big piece of work
around our second life and it's all about helping people.
0:3:44.970 --> 0:3:54.550
I10
Transition into the retirement, looking at the financial but also the non financial aspects of
retirement which are, you know, haven't gonna find my purpose.
0:3:54.810 --> 0:4:24.700
I10
And what, you know, what am I going to do with my day once I finish my 9:00 to 5:00? And you
know, how do I actually ensure that? Obviously I have enough money for retirement, but I
also have enough to do, you know, enough social connection and enough of all the the
other things that go on to make our lives whole. And we have a whole series of, like,
retirement chat videos.
0:4:38.930 --> 0:4:39.320
Hmm.
0:4:24.790 --> 0:4:41.500
I10
With two of our retirement councillors, we have one of our retirement counsellors is Brian
Mooney, so I don't know if you can remember from your leaving Cert. Days used to do all
the he he actually was a career guidance counsellor for many years and he would have
been the Irish Times.
0:4:42.180 --> 0:5:8.930
I10
And kind of career guidance person and he is actually now working for Standard Life as an end
of career guidance counsellor. So to help people kind of um, you know, make that
transition a little bit easier. So that's one kind of space that we're doing a lot of work in and
we're doing a lot in financial inclusion as well. So for example, it's making our.
0:5:10.170 --> 0:5:11.250
I10
474
You know our.
0:5:12.910 --> 0:5:44.360
I10
Websites easier for people to navigate. We have digital inclusion tools. You have a look on the
Phoenix website, you'll see more, more information about this, which means if somebody
rings in and they're not, maybe very digitally savvy, we have tools and tips and techniques
to help them use their computer better, basically to help them on that journey. But we also
have a large vulnerable customer programme. So if you think about the age group of the
people that we have, it's very broad.
0:5:44.430 --> 0:6:15.290
I10
Probably from, you know, early 40s when they start to get really engaged in pension, but right up
to 100. So what can happen to some of our customers is that they might enter stage as a
dementia or become vulnerable or want to do stupid things with their money as they
become older but not realise it. So actually our our customer service reps are trained in
vulnerable customer training and there's a huge amount of work that goes on in that space.
0:6:15.580 --> 0:6:24.560
I10
And we also, for our charity partner, which is a Samaritans who actually come in and train our
reps in you know listening out for.
0:6:24.860 --> 0:6:27.810
I10
I am kind of problems or.
0:6:28.270 --> 0:6:38.980
I10
And customers who may be vulnerable or have issues or need to access money and to get a better
understanding of what's going on. So there's a huge amount of work in that kind of
customer space.
0:6:39.950 --> 0:6:47.840
I10
Obviously then in the customer space is also we're constantly looking at putting more sustainable
funds on our actual platform.
475
0:6:48.520 --> 0:7:5.210
I10
And so that's a really important part to us. And the third area then is in what we call, I suppose
our people and community. This is a lot of work going on with her own people in terms of
diversity, making sure that we have better diversity across our business.
0:7:5.570 --> 0:7:26.100
I10
And and we're looking at also at the gender pay gap, the amount of women on our board, we
have targets across our business and that which people find, you know that's all a bit odd,
but we need to have the targets to make sure it actually happens, that we have better
diversity.
0:7:26.300 --> 0:7:38.150
I10
And across our organisation we're also looking at disabilities and unseen disabilities such as
areas like, for example, diabetes or.
0:7:38.390 --> 0:7:50.520
I10
Ohh can no issues that are own staff. May have the people aren't aware of and have remained
hidden for large portions of time and also around mental health. So these are really
important things to us.
0:7:51.480 --> 0:8:11.170
I10
And the other area that we're looking at is a colleague engagement and making it the best place
that people have ever worked. So making sure that our engagement scores stay high and
our leadership are really big on this. So if there's any sorts of dips or problems that people
managers have to actually address what's going on on their teams.
0:8:12.30 --> 0:8:21.580
I10
And the other area is then involvement in our communities. So within Ireland we have um, our
charity partnership is with the Samaritans.
0:8:22.320 --> 0:8:41.510
I10
476
And I suppose obviously we know the Samaritans is kind of a, you know, suicide prevention
charity who help people. But as was the thing people don't know about them is actually
they're the only lines in Ireland that are open 24/7. So a lot of the other, um, charities like
for example alone.
0:8:42.320 --> 0:8:53.750
I10
Used to be our charity partnership. Once you're finished at 5:00, o'clock in their offices, the calls
actually go through to the Samaritans. But it's the same with Pieta house. And like many of
the other.
0:9:11.120 --> 0:9:11.270
And.
0:8:53.930 --> 0:9:15.660
I10
And kind of big kind of suicide prevention or charities across the business. So we're doing a
huge amount there to actually increase engagement. We just have one of our colleagues
cycle from London to Paris and he raised over 3 1/2 thousand and everything we do is
matched by the company.
0:9:16.140 --> 0:9:20.870
I10
And to help her, our charity partnerships, so we have you know.
0:9:31.770 --> 0:9:32.180
Hmm.
0:9:21.550 --> 0:9:36.320
I10
An hour of pay. We have good to give. We've got, like, lots of things going on in that area, so that
I'm just touching on tiny amounts of stuff here, but we have a huge amount going on this
area and really stainability.
0:9:36.980 --> 0:10:7.370
I10
477
Affects everything that we have in our business. So this was the area you're going to be most
interested about is the operations of our buildings and our you know how we're working
on, on our targets around that. So we have already reached our 2025 targets on operational
emissions for our business and there I suppose a couple of reasons for this. One is we have
100% green energy across all of our.
0:10:7.950 --> 0:10:13.320
I10
Officers in both in the UK and Ireland and in Germany and in Austria.
0:10:13.940 --> 0:10:26.930
I10
Um and we would also make sure that none of our waste is diverted to land landfill where
possible. Um, so we've a huge recycling programmes that exist within the offices.
0:10:28.810 --> 0:10:35.0
I10
If we look at the whistle building in the UK and you'll see this on the sustainability and report.
0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:46.710
I10
They've pushed air, you know, of a solar panel roof on that old buildings. They're actually putting
money back into the grid or putting energy back into the grid.
0:10:47.150 --> 0:11:0.660
I10
And so for it to remain kind of positive. So. So I think from a from an overall perspective
Phoenix Group or two masses in this area, there are also involved to the very involved. I
don't know if you saw the whole thing in Wimbledon and.
0:11:1.580 --> 0:11:3.640
I10
And Richard Curtis and.
0:11:8.930 --> 0:11:11.300
Ohh yeah, I know you don't.
478
0:11:5.320 --> 0:11:32.610
I10
Who was the director from 4 weddings and a funeral? I don't know if you. Yeah, but basically,
Barclays is a group called just stop oil. But there's a company called make my money
matter in the UK, which is led. It's really a movement that's led by Richard Curtis. And
there was a whole controversy in Wimbledon with Barkley sponsoring Wimbledon because
a lot of their money is invested in oil. So.
0:11:32.810 --> 0:11:37.600
I10
And they're there was quite a few protests of Wimbledon. I don't know if you saw that.
0:11:38.890 --> 0:11:39.580
Ohh.
0:11:38.860 --> 0:11:40.50
I10
Over the last week.
0:11:41.110 --> 0:11:42.960
No, I didn't myself now.
0:11:43.10 --> 0:11:45.0
I10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
0:11:44.140 --> 0:11:45.90
Yeah.
0:11:45.850 --> 0:11:47.710
Yeah. OK. Thank you.
0:11:47.830 --> 0:11:48.160
479
I10
Hey.
0:11:49.200 --> 0:12:2.540
So the next question we have is how do you see the potential? Sorry, how do you perceive the
potential impact of collaboration in advancing sustainable practises within organisations?
0:12:4.290 --> 0:12:9.840
I10
Um, well, I think in the time I've been in the business.
0:12:11.30 --> 0:12:13.380
I10
Um, I've seen massive moves.
0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:17.110
Hmm.
0:12:14.50 --> 0:12:33.410
I10
Towards sustainable practises and I think what you have is companies maybe like ours, who've
always done the right thing like we we have always had a really good charitable arm.
We've, you know, tried to take care of our customers and our and our colleagues in the way
you would expect.
0:12:34.110 --> 0:12:34.680
Hmm.
0:12:34.90 --> 0:12:35.880
I10
Um, but actually.
0:12:48.300 --> 0:12:48.700
480
Hmm.
0:12:36.850 --> 0:13:6.50
I10
Maybe by having some of these real, you know, measurable sustainability targets and metrics
that has made us move faster in the areas that we wanted to make progress on. So I would
use, for example, the diversity and inclusion metrics that we would have for our top senior
management. You know, if I look a couple of years ago, the majority of the board for
example in the UK was male, it's now 5050.
0:13:6.780 --> 0:13:12.970
I10
That's on the Phoenix Group board, so by having, I think what you have is you've got.
0:13:14.0 --> 0:13:22.820
I10
Properties ordered the right thing or thought they did the right thing, but actually without having
the counted. The metrics in place. Um, it was more.
0:13:23.580 --> 0:13:33.790
I10
Difficult to show where they weren't doing the right thing, and I think when it comes to
sustainable investing that's been pushed from.
0:13:34.460 --> 0:13:58.150
I10
Two different areas. There's the will to want to do the right thing, but obviously there's balancing
customer returns. You know, ultimately, if your dad has his pension with Standard Life, he
wants to make sure he's getting the most performance that he can get over time. And I
suppose sustainable funds aren't always offering the best performance.
0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:23.170
I10
And because if you, if you think about it, um, you know, if you were invested in oil in the last
number of years with the way oil prices have gone and the fact that it has been so scarce,
it's actually they've actually performed really well. So it's always, it's always this balance
between making sure that we're investing in companies that are on the right journey.
0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:53.790
481
I10
And but balanced with having returns for our customers. Um, because their financial future, you
know, we're managing their money S we have to take that really, really seriously as well.
So I think what's happened is you've had regulation pushing us, you know in one particular
direction to move towards sustainable funds. And I think you have the customer maybe
sometimes pushing us in the other direction which is they want the best performance for
their money and it's about balancing that.
0:14:54.150 --> 0:14:56.200
I10
That's the biggest change that I've seen.
0:14:56.980 --> 0:15:2.90
I10
But what you're finding is some of those sustainable companies who are on the right track.
0:15:18.340 --> 0:15:18.790
Hmm.
0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:27.280
Hmm.
0:15:3.220 --> 0:15:31.0
I10
Are beginning to perform very well, so you see it with the car manufacturers. For example, we
wouldn't really invest with a asset manager partner that was with a, you know diesel Olney
type car company, but you have car companies, they're saying 30% of my fleet must speak
30, you know, electric vehicles by a certain date will then, therefore they're probably the
right ones for us to put our customer's money with.
0:15:31.910 --> 0:15:35.250
I10
Do we need to go with the ones who are 100% electric?
0:15:36.40 --> 0:15:50.810
I10
482
Maybe not, yes, because we need that balance between performance and and making sure that
we're investing for the state of the planet in the future. So I think that's the biggest change
I've seen.
0:15:51.590 --> 0:15:57.460
I10
And that we will definitely move in the right direction, but it's, um.
0:15:58.230 --> 0:16:4.490
I10
You know it. It is a balancing act between making sure that our customers are making enough
money as well.
0:16:6.200 --> 0:16:7.410
Perfect. Thank you.
0:16:9.150 --> 0:16:14.200
So my next question is how would you engage relevant stakeholders?
0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:24.350
Um, such as like let's say, like electric vehicle manufacturers are policymakers and consumers in
implementing sustainable practises.
0:16:29.950 --> 0:16:30.250
Ohh.
0:16:38.450 --> 0:16:38.780
In.
0:16:26.610 --> 0:16:46.640
I10
483
What with customers, we take that very seriously. So as you saw, we had your dad's focus group
to find out all their views about sustainable investing. So those focus groups have gone on
across the country. And so we'll be getting the report on that in a couple of weeks and
making sure that we're aligning our sustainable practises to what they're.
0:16:47.310 --> 0:16:55.90
I10
Customer wants, I think, when it comes to electric vehicle, that's probably less relevant for us
because we don't have a fleet of cars.
0:16:55.700 --> 0:16:56.100
Hmm.
0:16:56.350 --> 0:17:8.490
I10
And we used to many years ago, but we don't have a fleet. I think just the way the tax has gone
in Ireland and benefit and kind a lot of companies have moved away from company car
policies.
0:17:9.370 --> 0:17:29.360
I10
And where they have a fleet of vehicles, but also with high turnover of staff because what you
have is maybe somebody's saying, you know, I'll take that ID 4 for my company car right
now. But actually then that person might move on after 18 months and you're left with that
car.
0:17:30.170 --> 0:17:30.620
Yeah.
0:17:30.340 --> 0:18:0.520
I10
And if it's on a long term lease, so, so we we have deliberately moved away from that um, in the
UK, they still have a company car policy and they have moved much more towards electric
vehicles within that company car policy. So I think it just really depends then in Germany
it's very different because actually their company car policies generally support their local
industry. That's the way the tax is set up. So they have all BMW's.
484
0:18:2.950 --> 0:18:3.400
Nothing.
0:18:0.820 --> 0:18:20.560
I10
I would just because they're German car manufacturers, so they, you know, in a way it's been
sustainable because you're supporting local and community and probably, you know, local
jobs. But that's what the focus would be answered depends on the jurisdiction, think when
it comes to to vehicles.
0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.140
Thank you. Ohh.
0:18:24.350 --> 0:18:37.320
So what are the major challenges? Or sorry, what difficulties do like organisations face when
implementing sustainable practises and conversations, like within the organisations?
0:18:39.110 --> 0:18:42.740
I10
Um, I think within operations.
0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.190
I10
At the moment we're in a Georgian building.
0:18:48.20 --> 0:18:54.800
I10
In Dublin so, and it's obviously under a contract, you know we're rent the building.
0:18:55.640 --> 0:19:24.860
I10
And now I don't think we'll be in it for much longer. I think we might be moving, but for
example, you would be limited in what you can do in terms of luxury upgrading. You know
you can't mess with the windows in the front, but ideally it interpreted triple glazing. But
485
you know they're there are restrictions. So if you think about those, there's some sort of
practical restrictions. You have fireplaces still in all the rooms, you're not going to board up
at Georgian fireplace.
0:19:24.940 --> 0:19:25.550
I10
Note to.
0:19:25.420 --> 0:19:26.810
Yeah.
0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:28.210
Last year.
0:19:46.230 --> 0:19:46.400
Ohh.
0:19:27.60 --> 0:19:51.690
I10
And but. But obviously, if you were looking just at the rating of the building, you would be
doing things like that. So I think there is, you know there's some moves that are just there
because of you know you might be in the 20 year lease and in particular building like that.
So they they're the challenges. So I what I would say is you have to look at what's in your
control.
0:19:52.450 --> 0:20:11.240
I10
And actually been able to make the changes on what's in your control. I think when it comes to
sustainable investing and we talk a lot about the net Zero transition plan and it is about
your transition and we take it really seriously and we have targets to reach by particular
years and for that plan.
0:20:12.120 --> 0:20:27.660
I10
486
Um, so if I take a big example we have, I don't know if you know how pensions funds work, but
generally if you've got a pension with a company for example, and you then can choose
what funds it goes into.
0:20:28.390 --> 0:20:31.850
I10
Based on your attitude to risk.
0:20:32.570 --> 0:20:39.660
I10
Um, so you might decide I want to invest in that particular type of fund because it is a risk
profile of medium.
0:20:41.250 --> 0:21:11.670
I10
What we have done in the UK with €13 billion or or 13 billion sterling actually is to move the
default font to sustainable fund on our corporate pensions. So that means if you don't know
what you want to go into and you just press default, it'll actually go into a sustainable fund.
So I think that was something that we could actually control. All we can say to our
customers on the other hand, for the ones who are making their own choices is advise
them.
0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:26.40
I10
On the benefits of sustainable funds and the good that they would do for the planet, but we can't
force them, you know, to to make that choice. And and we have to be really careful
because.
0:21:26.770 --> 0:21:37.910
I10
We are not advising the customer and adviser will help with that. You know our relationship is to
provide them with the best possible choice that exists out there.
0:21:38.610 --> 0:21:44.880
I10
And but if somebody just wants really high returns and you know that's where they're focused.
0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:53.540
487
I10
You know, they may make a different choice, and that's perfectly within their remit to do that. So
I think that's, that's the balance that we have. That's our biggest challenge.
0:21:54.60 --> 0:21:55.90
Yeah. Thank you.
0:21:56.890 --> 0:22:5.900
So the next one is what strategies or measures do you think should be implemented to promote
sustainability in organisations?
0:22:8.0 --> 0:22:12.830
I10
Am I think you have to start with sustainability strategy.
0:22:13.650 --> 0:22:20.430
I10
I'm actually saying what it is you want to achieve and having a series of KPIs, metrics and
targets.
0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:44.670
I10
I think you need to look at a whole heap of external factors. So I think a materiality analysis is
really important and that's something that we actually do across our business. So within the
materiality analysis, you're looking at what factors are most of influence for your type of
business. So I think it really depends on the business.
0:22:45.930 --> 0:22:51.340
I10
Which factors that they will have that will have most impact on their customers and the planet.
0:22:52.180 --> 0:23:9.410
I10
488
And and that will still be of benefit to them as a business. And so I think that's that's a really key
part to, to to start with. So I would start at the materiality analysis to designing the strategy
and then designing the plans to meet that strategy.
0:23:10.610 --> 0:23:12.130
Thank you. Ohh.
0:23:12.950 --> 0:23:25.350
Oh, oh, we're next question is on the topic of corporate governance. Do you think public policy
or regulation needs to advance further to support improvement?
0:23:27.210 --> 0:23:33.200
I10
I think corporate governance is very stringent in the sector we're in because we are.
0:23:34.620 --> 0:23:52.360
I10
You know, regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland, for example, they would hold us to account
on all matters of financial prudence, not just sustainability, but sustainability has is is a risk
to and financial risk to our business that we take really seriously.
0:23:53.70 --> 0:24:2.130
I10
And so in the regulatory space within finance, I think the regulation is almost going to faster than
the.
0:24:3.60 --> 0:24:10.520
I10
Did the industry can keep up with, to be honest, particularly across Europe, think it's slightly
different in the UK, it's a little bit slower.
0:24:11.420 --> 0:24:12.570
I10
Um, but.
0:24:13.310 --> 0:24:24.120
489
I10
I think you European regulation is almost pushing ahead so fast that businesses and organisations
are almost struggling to keep up.
0:24:24.850 --> 0:24:43.580
I10
And so for example, I could use something that's coming down the tracks, which is a carbon
measurement of all of our investment funds, and actually having a metric to say how much
it would impact the planet by versus a different type of fund.
0:24:44.390 --> 0:25:6.630
I10
Now that is an incredibly complicated actuarial calculation, and if you can imagine on some of
our funds, there might be 30 or 40 different structures that go to make up that and you have
to do that calculation across all 30 or 40 before you actually get what that measure is. And
that measure can change month my by month.
0:25:7.360 --> 0:25:13.820
I10
Depending on performance and various things, so I think.
0:25:14.850 --> 0:25:28.640
I10
At the moment, our sustainability team at group level is just mushroom mushrooming too. You
know, there's masses and masses and masses of people in the team. We can't hire quick
enough.
0:25:29.510 --> 0:25:34.560
I10
And so actually I think in a way regulation is almost.
0:25:35.810 --> 0:25:44.340
I10
Slightly further ahead, even than businesses can can reach, but it's all in the name of the greater
good you know, so that is good.
0:25:45.940 --> 0:25:46.790
490
Yes, thank you.
0:25:48.900 --> 0:25:50.890
So um.
0:25:51.840 --> 0:26:0.730
So your company interacts with large rate of range of clients across multiple sectors. Um, so do
you think some sectors?
0:26:2.250 --> 0:26:6.20
Are more likely are more welcoming of sustainability than others.
0:26:8.150 --> 0:26:13.780
I10
Yes, I do. I think, you know, excuse me, I think our sector is.
0:26:15.330 --> 0:26:22.680
I10
Welcoming of sustainability. Because ultimately, if you chase the money and the money's been
invested in the right things.
0:26:26.290 --> 0:26:26.570
Yes.
0:26:23.450 --> 0:26:29.380
I10
That the world would be a better place. So I do think. I do think we have a lot too.
0:26:30.330 --> 0:26:56.660
I10
You know, add in this area. I think it's not as transparent as you know obviously like you take the
electric car companies or the car companies where you could say 30% of my vehicles will
491
be electric. You know it's much easier for customers to relate to it and to be able to see the
huge complexity around our business and how our customers money is invested.
0:26:57.380 --> 0:27:1.10
I10
Makes it more difficult to trace and see.
0:27:17.750 --> 0:27:17.990
Yeah.
0:27:2.650 --> 0:27:18.760
I10
For your average Joe blogs on the street cause this massive amount of actuarial calculations and
all those great and wonderful things. But I do think, you know, we can have a a really big
impact. So yeah.
0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:20.10
Should thank you.
0:27:20.170 --> 0:27:20.950
Um.
0:27:22.220 --> 0:27:22.670
Ohh.
0:27:22.790 --> 0:27:25.870
And our last one is after.
0:27:27.490 --> 0:27:28.280
Yeah.
0:27:30.530 --> 0:27:30.860
492
M.
0:27:24.770 --> 0:27:31.920
I10
Actually, actually I've one quote for you. Sorry. If you look at look up the make my money
matters. That's a really interesting.
0:27:32.30 --> 0:27:51.510
I10
And it's a really interesting website that actually shows the benefits, but if you move your
pension money even as a 20 something you're out okay so say you have a pension in your
first job and you've invested, you take the company pension, you put in your own little bit
of money.
0:27:52.880 --> 0:28:3.320
I10
By actually putting your money into sustainable funds, you have an impact or something like
25% more than going vegan and applying for a year.
0:28:4.220 --> 0:28:4.660
My.
0:28:5.600 --> 0:28:6.850
I10
So you know.
0:28:5.900 --> 0:28:7.10
Nothing interesting.
0:28:7.490 --> 0:28:11.380
I10
There is massive massive impact by having your money in the right things.
0:28:11.940 --> 0:28:12.310
493
Yeah.
0:28:12.90 --> 0:28:14.650
I10
And so and much more so.
0:28:22.390 --> 0:28:22.780
Yeah.
0:28:15.380 --> 0:28:24.490
I10
Then the more obvious big steps that you could take to maybe batch yourself. You know Lexus
of? Because Ohh now I'm really into the planet and.
0:28:25.190 --> 0:28:31.980
I10
You know I'm. I'm you know, I'm not eating meat and I'm not not flying and I'm walking
everywhere. Whatever.
0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:51.200
Something. Yeah, go ahead.
0:28:51.270 --> 0:28:53.270
Like, yeah.
0:28:32.930 --> 0:28:54.500
I10
And actually the person who maybe has put their shift to their money into sustainable fund is a
huge amount more benefit to the planet. So. So I think it's, you know there but have a look
I could have got that the 25 wrong but it is fairly hefty number. But take a look at that
make my money matters website and they explain it really easily.
0:28:56.700 --> 0:28:57.280
494
I10
No problem.
0:28:55.530 --> 0:28:59.460
Thank you. Um, so our last question is.
0:29:0.300 --> 0:29:8.310
From your experience, what is the best method of establishing A stakeholder engagement to
capture value?
0:29:11.510 --> 0:29:14.0
I10
Capture sustainability value or.
0:29:13.500 --> 0:29:17.400
I say yeah, it's yes, sustainability value.
0:29:18.620 --> 0:29:24.140
I10
And I think the best method is starting right at the top.
0:29:24.950 --> 0:29:25.310
Hmm.
0:29:26.550 --> 0:29:26.830
This.
0:29:25.250 --> 0:29:27.480
I10
To be honest, so our.
0:29:28.170 --> 0:29:48.80
495
I10
We have, um, really stringent structures in place around sustainability, so the Phoenix Group
Board who manage all of the companies have to sign off on our sustainability strategy, are
very senior management, are targeted on sustainability metrics within the renumeration
policy.
0:29:48.750 --> 0:30:9.250
I10
So parse their bonus is actually directly related to how we're doing versus our sustainability
targets and then that philtres all the way down because then the next level will have it and
then then the next level and it'll all philtre down. But unless you have buy in right from the
top, it's not going to work so.
0:30:10.460 --> 0:30:14.370
I10
Next week I have to submit a.
0:30:15.170 --> 0:30:44.760
I10
A plan to the silently board, who are the Standard Life International Board for our sustainability,
what we're going to achieve over the next year and the group sign off of the group's
sustainability, stressed she and her Nets are transition plan and they have to formally note
and approve that strategy in that meeting. Those minutes go to the central bank like we've
signed up to that. So that's your most efficient way to start and then it's about bringing the
rest of the business on board with what those targets are.
0:30:45.650 --> 0:30:46.60
Hmm.
0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:53.740
I10
So if the board and the leadership have said yes, we're taking this seriously and we're gonna go
ahead, then you have the best chance of success.
0:30:55.840 --> 0:31:1.190
Thank you. And Kevin, do you have any other questions or no?
496
0:31:4.250 --> 0:31:6.230
OKOK.
0:31:2.920 --> 0:31:8.10
Kevin Codd (Umail)
I don't know. I think I am all good. But thanks so much for your time. Cleaner. Really appreciate
it.
0:31:8.930 --> 0:31:9.650
Thank you.
0:31:8.370 --> 0:31:11.760
I10
No problem, no worries. So tell me a little bit about your.
0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:15.560
I10
But you're hoping to get out at the end of all this.
0:31:16.770 --> 0:31:19.720
Yeah, like the project you mean.
0:31:20.100 --> 0:31:20.460
I10
Yeah.
0:31:20.650 --> 0:31:36.350
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Uh, yeah. So we're hoping to, like develop a framework for like more circular
practises like in the EV ecosystem. But we're also looking for like different perspectives
and like strategies that kind of like what you were talking about there.
0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:39.840
497
Yeah. So that's what we're hoping to do.
0:31:40.460 --> 0:31:40.930
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:31:40.980 --> 0:31:41.390
Yeah.
0:31:39.270 --> 0:31:47.380
I10
Grace. Grace. So is it in the so when you're saying about circular practises, is it like recycling
batteries about?
0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:53.610
Yeah, that's sort of thing. Yeah, second life of, like, second use of batteries and things like that.
0:31:54.180 --> 0:31:56.340
I10
Okay brilliant, brilliant and have.
0:31:55.980 --> 0:31:56.520
Yeah.
0:31:54.740 --> 0:31:58.730
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah, just like reducing waste and stuff like that, yeah.
0:31:59.290 --> 0:32:21.100
I10
Yeah, well, I know we do something with all our IT equipment. So we used to just throw it out
like it's terrible really. But now we actually give that on to once it's wiped clean, we give it
on to various charities, schools and you know for them to actually use.
0:32:22.70 --> 0:32:22.500
498
Hmm.
0:32:30.250 --> 0:32:30.930
Yeah.
0:32:21.890 --> 0:32:36.290
I10
And so if there's any sorts of updates, um, you know, nothing actually would go to waste
anymore. So. So that's something where we've introduced circular practise within our own
business.
0:32:36.790 --> 0:32:39.610
I10
And which I think is is really important.
0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:48.100
Yeah.
0:32:40.410 --> 0:32:50.230
I10
And yeah, but I think, yeah, it's it's a challenge on electric vehicles, isn't it? Because as well, I
suppose because the technology is new.
0:32:51.350 --> 0:32:51.910
Hmm.
0:32:51.250 --> 0:32:54.160
I10
We don't know what else to do with them yet. Maybe.
0:32:56.460 --> 0:32:57.70
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
499
0:32:54.230 --> 0:33:5.40
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Love like battery testing and sorting that goes on. And like the process of
sending it on. So, so it's challenging, but yeah.
0:33:5.240 --> 0:33:5.680
I10
Yeah.
0:33:5.140 --> 0:33:36.170
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah. And I think clean as well like your your insights about sustainable investing is really
interesting because you know you're talking about and like you're making sure the
customer is getting their returns, but also you're trying to like maybe consider sustainable
options and like it's finding that balance and that's actually something we seen as well in
our conversations with people in the TV industry is that they're trying to get as many EVs
as they can on the road, but they're also kind of trying to make sure they are sustainable as
possible.
0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:52.140
Kevin Codd (Umail)
And so you're you're kind of talking about this trade off between like sustainability and and, you
know, delivering the best performance for customers. So it's kind of interesting that
something we've seen come up is that kind of juggling act between those two things.
0:33:53.790 --> 0:34:2.20
I10
Yeah. And I think that's the biggest challenge we face across everything. You know it's it's, you
know, you look even at.
0:34:21.80 --> 0:34:21.510
Ohh.
0:34:22.100 --> 0:34:22.730
Hmm.
500
0:34:28.340 --> 0:34:28.610
Yeah.
0:34:3.470 --> 0:34:33.650
I10
If I look at cars like I'm down and then scroll with a house down here at the at the moment and
for me to get down and then electric vehicle. So I was looking at change in my car, but
there's only two charging spots between Dublin and then the screen, you know, to and
actually you know, I would be worried about running out of charge on that journey. And I
do it a lot as the family here. You know where my family are from here originally so.
0:34:43.60 --> 0:34:43.380
Do you want?
0:34:34.780 --> 0:34:46.470
I10
Highlight be very conscious of recycling and I grow my girl vegetables and I'd be conscious of
flying and I use the Lewis at home and walk and things like that.
0:34:47.480 --> 0:35:1.240
I10
I haven't, you know, that's that's a big blocker for me and it's an easy to solve blocker, but
unfortunately if there's a queue at Carrick for the for the charging point and I'm stuck, you
know I.
0:35:7.60 --> 0:35:7.780
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:35:2.70 --> 0:35:12.840
I10
Probably aren't. I'm not going to make the choice, so I do think it's about having infrastructure in
place and it's a bit the same for us. I think it's, you know, you need the.
0:35:14.10 --> 0:35:19.810
501
I10
We need sustainable funds to move to the point where they're returning just as well as other
refunds.
0:35:20.720 --> 0:35:21.240
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:35:21.950 --> 0:35:22.460
Sorry.
0:35:22.60 --> 0:35:22.540
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
0:35:21.50 --> 0:35:31.980
I10
You know, and the fund managers are making the right decision because ohh at the end of the
day this is customers hard saved, hard earned money. They've saved, spent their whole life
saving this pot of money.
0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:33.600
Hmm.
0:35:32.650 --> 0:35:33.960
I10
And they need to live office.
0:35:35.380 --> 0:35:35.970
Yes.
0:35:35.380 --> 0:35:36.70
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah.
502
0:35:35.0 --> 0:35:38.480
I10
You know when they retire that we take that responsibility.
0:35:43.170 --> 0:35:43.490
Then.
0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:52.290
I10
Is nearly more serious to know that than just doing good for the planet because it's very
important that we make a return for our customers and that they feel like their money is
safe and secure and we're not.
0:35:53.370 --> 0:35:58.790
I10
Spending it Willy nilly, you know? So it's it's it, is that balance?
0:35:59.960 --> 0:36:1.30
Yeah, for sure.
0:36:1.200 --> 0:36:1.790
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Hmm.
0:36:1.800 --> 0:36:2.500
Excellent.
0:36:3.730 --> 0:36:4.220
I10
OK.
0:36:3.490 --> 0:36:7.730
503
Ohh so thank you so much for all your help. Thank you.
0:36:9.580 --> 0:36:10.680
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Thanks so much.
0:36:7.810 --> 0:36:14.380
I10
You're very welcome. No problem, Michelle. And if I can be of help again, um, let me know. So
if you need.
0:36:14.460 --> 0:36:22.350
I10
And I like my title is is sustainability and strategy manager for Europe, so I have.
0:36:23.180 --> 0:36:28.700
I10
If you need kind of any details, but there's a huge amount of people across our business.
0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:32.500
I10
You know, you probably don't need the same.
0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:38.790
I10
Types of people 11 area. I would say that might be worth checking with is.
0:36:40.300 --> 0:36:40.580
I10
With.
0:36:44.430 --> 0:36:44.780
Hmm.
0:36:41.380 --> 0:36:58.170
I10
504
Am I black or somebody like that? Because they would be running sustainability course. I know
I'm doing an accredited course actually in November, but they've run it with other people
and so they'd have a good cross span of industry.
0:36:59.220 --> 0:36:59.780
I10
And.
0:36:59.230 --> 0:37:0.270
Yeah, she doesn't it.
0:37:0.630 --> 0:37:13.400
I10
Yeah, to to take a look at and actually one thing I didn't mention like we would actively divest
from companies based on their sustainability policies. And I think that's really important
thing. So I'll use a couple of examples. You can relate to.
0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:27.250
Yes.
0:37:14.390 --> 0:37:31.70
I10
Am Aberdeen, for example, have moved away from, I think it's called Interdi, but it's basically
the company that owns Zara and Stradivarius and pull and bear. So it's the same company
that owned all of those, but actually there.
0:38:0.490 --> 0:38:0.900
Yeah.
0:37:32.850 --> 0:38:3.60
I10
You know, work, they're concerned about fast fashion. And actually while the company is
performing incredibly well and would perform very well, they're concerned about the fact
that actually they're sustainability practises that are in place are not good enough because
505
they're putting too much fashion into the hands of young and impressionable people who
only wear them for a very short space of time and then not.
0:38:3.240 --> 0:38:15.610
I10
Yeah, you know, not want to wear them again next season. So there is an act of choice made on a
performing company that they've moved away from.
0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:17.50
I10
AM.
0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:20.890
I10
The other companies, you know, the Irish company, Kingspan.
0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:37.780
Yeah.
0:38:21.800 --> 0:38:45.760
I10
Dunno if you know Kingspan, they make the insulation and loads of buildings, so you often see
them. The big trucks on the the rope. They're absolutely massive. Part of the construction
process and they make that kind of filled stuff, you know, with the foil on both sides. So
while it's all about sustainability because it's about better heat in your house and your
building, what actually happened was.
0:38:46.510 --> 0:38:55.350
I10
There and they were involved or their materials were involved in the Grenfell tragedy. Do you
remember the grandfather of the building?
0:38:58.830 --> 0:38:59.880
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:38:56.70 --> 0:39:0.20
506
I10
In London that went on fire and all those people died.
0:39:11.180 --> 0:39:11.500
1st.
0:39:0.980 --> 0:39:17.660
I10
And a basically when they checked the fund managers then are the people who invest in those
companies. They went and checked the policies when it came to their fire regulations and
safety and felt that they weren't up to scratch. So they've actually divested from that
company.
0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:25.700
I10
So you've got a company there that's essentially doing sustainable stuff because they're providing
insulation.
0:39:26.370 --> 0:39:27.140
Hmm.
0:39:26.650 --> 0:39:30.740
I10
But, but they're corporate practises weren't up to scratch.
0:39:35.580 --> 0:39:35.850
On.
0:39:31.780 --> 0:39:38.110
I10
And another example. So this is like more real life examples for you guys and you know
Boohoo.
0:39:38.820 --> 0:39:40.60
507
Yeah, no.
0:39:39.90 --> 0:39:49.690
I10
He probably buy our have bought on Boohoo, but basically um another one of our asset
management companies has walked away from Boohoo.
0:39:50.380 --> 0:39:56.750
I10
But this is for really worrying reasons because of their slavery practises and how they're clothes
are made.
0:39:57.580 --> 0:40:1.240
I10
And how they couldn't stand over their modern slavery.
0:40:7.920 --> 0:40:8.150
Like.
0:40:1.930 --> 0:40:10.240
I10
And policy. So they had a very classy modern slavery policy. But when the yassa managers
actually investigated.
0:40:11.50 --> 0:40:16.260
I10
The wasn't much substance to it, and actually who was actually producing the clothes.
0:40:17.30 --> 0:40:18.570
I10
And it was a real concern.
0:40:19.690 --> 0:40:20.300
In 30.
508
0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:24.550
I10
So you've got, you know, you have. This is where I'm saying the money has the power.
0:40:25.490 --> 0:40:25.960
Hmm.
0:40:38.500 --> 0:40:38.910
Yes.
0:40:43.370 --> 0:40:43.860
Yeah.
0:40:25.410 --> 0:40:48.930
I10
Because it can. You know, for Zara, they weren't like that. The reason that the companies are just
choosing to walk away was because of fast fashion. But that's what they do. But they aren't
doing it in a bad way. Do you know? But but with Boohoo, it was an active choice because
of slavery. So, you know, there's there's really, this is what I'm saying. It touches absolutely
everything.
0:40:49.830 --> 0:40:55.680
I10
Um and this massive practises across every company.
0:40:57.520 --> 0:41:10.500
I10
You know which could be held in called in to scrutiny. I am. So you have to be really careful.
And it also depends what the company is very interested in and interested in investing in.
0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:13.130
I10
Am so.
509
0:41:13.900 --> 0:41:24.510
I10
You know, I think there's there's so much in this area is huge, but it's essentially, I just keep
bringing them back to the point. Does it feel like the right thing? And is it the right thing
and?
0:41:25.180 --> 0:41:28.650
I10
Is it about doing the right thing? Cause that's really what sustainability is about.
0:41:29.470 --> 0:41:30.760
Yeah, for sure.
0:41:32.310 --> 0:41:33.500
Okay, thank you.
0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:35.230
Sorry.
0:41:30.490 --> 0:41:35.760
I10
Yeah. OK. Grace, I, Bashar, go here and try and sort out my Internet.
0:41:36.50 --> 0:41:38.560
Ohh sure okay. Thank you so much.
0:41:37.90 --> 0:41:39.630
Kevin Codd (Umail)
Trillions, thanks so much.
0:41:39.720 --> 0:41:40.650
510
Thank you.
511

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Electric Vehicle Circular Economy: Creating a Framework to Aid Firms Within the EV

Industry Research Project by:

IS6056: Collaborative Industry Research Project

Figure 1 – Triple-Layered Business Model Canvas

1.1 Introduction to Study

1.2 Problem Area

1.3 Research Objective and Questions

➢ Objective: Develop a framework to promote a circular economy within the EV ecosystem.

Justification for RQ1

Justification for RQ2

Justification for RQ3

1.4 Thesis Design

1.4.1 Summary of Chapter 2: Literature Review

1.4.2 Summary of Chapter 3: Research Methodology

1.4.3 Summary of Chapter 4: Findings

1.4.4 Summary of Chapter 5: Discussion of Findings

1.4.5 Summary of Chapter 6: Recommendations and Conclusion

2.2 Challenges for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs)

2.2.2 Cost of Production

2.2.3 Social Pressures

2.2.4 Battery Capacity and Degradation

2.3.2 Recycling and Repurposing

2.3.3 Battery Second Use (B2U) Market

• Cost of production (economic and environmental)

2.3.4 Battery leasing & Battery swapping

2.4.1 Regulations and Standards

2.5 Business Models

2.5.1 Business Model Canvas

2.5.2 Sustainable Business Models and the Circular Economy

Concerning collaboration and alignment between stakeholders in sustainable business model

Fig. 3 Activity theory-based model (Li et al., 2020)

2.5.3 Circular Business Models

➢ Cost per unit of time

2.5.4 Electric Vehicle Business Models

2.6 Circular Economy

2.6.1 Importance of Sustainability in the Circular Economy

2.6.2 Circular Economy Indicators

2.6.3 Waste Management and Recycling in Circular Economy

2.7 Implementing an Electric Vehicle Ecosystem

2.7.2 Collaboration, Strategies and Frameworks

Research Questions: Filling the Gap

3.1.1 Approach to Answering the Research Objective and Questions

3.2 Research Design

3.3 Research Approach

What future trends or advancements Where do you see Ireland ten

3.4 Data Collection

➢ Two were from personal connections.

Fig. 5 Interviewees by position and industry

3.5 Data Analysis

3.5.2 Data Preparation and Coding

➢ “Central to qualitative analysis, coding reduces large amounts of empirical material

3.5.3 Thematic Analysis

at the same time you have to pull in you know

3.6 Trustworthiness and Rigour

3.7 Ethical Considerations

4.2 Research Question 1

4.2.1 Second Life Batteries

“In Ireland, we currently have about 2000

“Everybody will come out and say there's not

“It's to find the balance for the