Arguments
Arguments
Arguments
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Premise 1: God himself prayed for the unity of believers and repeatedly called for
unity in Mind and Judgement. (John 17:21, 1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2)
Premise 2: The doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not provide a principled way to
discern between dogma and opinion (Mind=Doctrine),
failing to offer a clear and consistent framework for determining which
disagreements should be considered substantive enough to warrant church rupture
(Judgment)
C: Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that God intended for unity in mind and
judgement to be achieved through this doctrine.
do you think the phrase homoousious has divine authority as part of the deposit of
faith?
Does the Church have the right to exclude from her fellowship all who deny
homoousious?
And if so, why? Is it merely because homoouisious agrees with your interpretation
of Scripture?
Or, does the Church have the right to authorize symbols (creeds) that possess
divine authority by virtue of the authority of those who promulgate them?
True tricothomy: A or B or C
A) The Church has the right to authorize symbols (creeds) that possess divine
authority by virtue of the authority of those who promulgate them!
B) No creed has divine authority as a creed but only as an interpretation of
Scripture than may or may not be correct!
**Premise 1**: God himself prayed for the unity of believers and repeatedly called
for unity in Mind and Judgement.
**Premise 2**: The doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not provide a principled way to
discern between dogma and opinion =Mind
failing to offer a clear and consistent framework for
determining which disagreements should be considered substantive enough to warrant
church rupture =Judgment
**C**: Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that God intended for unity in mind
and judgement to be achieved through this doctrine.
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Make an argument with premises and conclusion that every Christian ought to be
catholic, because relying on it'w own personal
understadning of the scriptures or following heterodox newer churchs can be
dangerous according to the pascal wager principle.
That the catholic church teaches, she is the body of christ with authority can be
traced in history and used as an objective criterion copmared to the
subjective critera of private judgement and interpretation of scriptures, that one
can see in history the charity, antiquity, sucssesion of bishops, miracles
of the church and have an assent of faith rahther then relying on opinion of what
Christ ment, opinion that can be false since the effects of the Fall upon upon the
ability of
societies to progress consistently in true conclusions. That scripture don't talk
about scriptures being the means by which the truth of the christian faith will be
treansmittet rahter the Church
and That the Church is unified by the Holy Spirit, that which unifies Father and
Son: John 17:22. That the Church's unity is twofold: that is,
in mind and judgment: 1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2 and 1 Peter 3:8.
That the Spirit, as the unifier, is therefore the guarantor in the mind and
judgment of the Church: Acts 15:24(as to mind, i.e. doctrine); Matthew 18:17-18,
Acts 15:28 (as to judgment).
That the settled doctrines of the Church, safeguarded by Christ, are therefore
trustworthy: see 1 Timothy 6:20, 2 Timothy 1:14, Proverbs 22:28.
that the Church isconsidered as the public authority of the Church by which Christ
is heard - on the authority of the prayer of
our Lord in Luke 22:32 (which is for an individual fallible as to his private
person, infallible as to his public person), and his words in Luke 10:16.
and The church as a body is not headed solely by men - and that Christ is not the
head of individual christians, rather Christian people as a public body
Ephesians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2.
That the Church is informed, as to the doctrine which is constitutive to her being
a public body, by Christ is her principle and head (rather than only by the
fallible thoughts of men): see 1 Corinthians 2:16
That in conclusion christian on basis of logic, reason, history, scriptures ought
to be catholic as the evidence points Christ building one Church and wanting unity
in his Church and therfore we ought to obey
rather then cause further schism.
Premise 1 Christ says that he will build his Church, Old testament prophecy that
messiah will build a temple, and he urges people to listen to the Church
2 Timothy 1:14
1)
I believe I'm a Catholic because of faith
-Faith is a free gift of God which is a supernatural virtue that is infused by God,
pouried into out hearts, gives us new heart which makes us
love God for the sake of loving God, it gives us hope as well it moves us to keep
the law
and trust all of the special divine revelation of God on the account of the
authority of Him who reveals it.
2)
The symmetry breaker is God's revelation in history. The Church is self attesting,
self authentiacting and by way of motives of credibility we can recognize God's
church
as well as we can recognize God's authroity.
there is an argument from functionality that can be presented as:
the interpretation of the meaning of the words in Scripture is underdetermined by
the manifold exegeses.
Hence, there is a need for a central epistemic authority to point out the
determinate sense of such words.
This central epistemic authority has to meet criteria A, B, C and D. Only the
Magisterium of the Catholic Church meets the aforementioned criteria.
3)
If the Church wants to excomunicate me from the flock, she has the right to do so
because of here divine authroity.
To defend myself i would appeal to Scriptures (Apostolic testimonies) and Sacred
Tradition (the teaching of the Bishops in union with the Petrine minsitry)
which form the Deposit
But the whole point is that i Obey my leaders, as they are over me in the lord. I
don't presume sin or heresy, and i wair for the Councils to resolve the issues of
heresies
and troubling doctrine.
The establishment of the singular and authoritative Church by Christ (as it was
prophecied in 2 Samuel 7:13-14, Isaiah 66:21 and fulfilled in Matthew 16:16-18.)
is resoundingly evident in both the Scriptures
Scriptures call and requires us to listen (Matthew 18:17, Revelation 3:21-22, 1
John 4:6)
and to obey (Hebrews 13:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:12), as the Church is the foundation
and pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
Possession of authority is ultimately derived from God alone (Heb 5:4, Rom 13:1,
John 15:16, Mat 16:19, Acts 20:28), and
the Church's authority includes sacramental continuity in ordination which confers
grace(1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5, 2 Tim 1:6)
This Authority posseses the power to teach, discipline, reward (1 Timothy 5:17,
Matthew 18:15-17), offer sacrifice, anoint, and forgive sins (Luke 22:19, John
20:21-23, James 5:14-15).
That the Church is the very means by which the truth of the Christian faith will be
transmited: see Ephesians 3:10
That it is necessary for the individual believer to reliably come to know the
contents and entailments of revelation by way of being taught: see Acts 8:30-31.
The Church, unified by the Holy Spirit, is a twofold unity in mind and judgment (1
Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2, 1 Peter 3:8), with the Spirit as the guarantor
of its mind and judgment
(Acts 15:24, Matthew 18:17-18, Acts 15:28), safeguarding trustworthy doctrines (1
Timothy 6:20, 2 Timothy 1:14, Proverbs 22:28)
and serving as the public authority through which Christ is heard (Luke 22:32, Luke
10:16), with Christ as the head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2)
and its doctrine informed by Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 2:16).
listen (Matthew 18:17, Revelation 3:21-22, 1 John 4:6) and obey (Hebrews 13:17, 1
Thessalonians 5:12)
Patristics:
At the very beginning of the second century St. Ignatius writes about the authority
of the bishops, priests, and deacons, in all his epistles. In one place he says
that
“all who belong to God and Jesus Christ are with the bishop. And those, too, will
belong to God who have returned, repentant, to the unity of the Church so as to
live in accordance with Jesus Christ.
Make no mistake brethren. No one who [knowingly] follows another into schism
inherits the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9). ” (Letter to the Philadelphians)
“For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the [manifested] will of the
Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds [of the earth],
are so by the will of Jesus Christ.”
(Ephesians 3, 107 A.D.)
In another letter he writes, “In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an
appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the
Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin of God,
and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.”
...“No [Christian] who acts apart from the bishop and the priests and the deacons
has a clear conscience.” (Trallians 3, 107 A.D.)
Toward the end of the second century St. Irenaeus writes, “But it is also necessary
to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession,
and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever.” (Against Heresies, 4.26)
Such statements presuppose a clarity regarding the identity of the Catholic bishop
in each city.
C)
Practicing private judgment over a text and making a verdict without an appeal is
perilous due to the effects of the Fall on individuals and societies' ability to
consistently progress in reaching true conclusions.
Relying solely on one's personal understanding of the Scriptures or aligning with
heterodox congregations that lack clear markers of a true Church is inherently
dangerous.
-One of the primary purposes for Christ founding a Church is to undo the division
of men against men,
the divisions of the human family effected by sin. These divisions began when Adam
sinned, but were manifest in a universal way at the Tower of Babel.
Pentecost is the supernatural reversal of Babel, and this is why the Church is the
anti-Babel. (Parenthetical note: This is why it is fitting that she is built on
Rome,
which Peter refers to as Babylon, and which is the natural kingdom taken over by
Christ’s supernatural Kingdom, according to Daniel’s prophecy.)
all the nations of the world are to stream into her doors, into ONE household, the
household of faith. Sinful man cannot form such a unity!
Though he thinks he can. But sinful man’s attempt to do so is the mission of the
Antichrist,
to form by the mere natural power of man the whole of mankind into a universal
social and political unity ordered to this world as man’s final end
We should remain in that Church which was founded by the Apostles and continues to
this day.
development of doctrine:
The unity of the Lex Orandi (Law of Prayer), Lex Credendi (Law of Belief), and Lex
Vivendi (Law of Life) signifies that as conceptual knowledge is derived from the
same object of the deposit of Revelation,
there will naturally be a development that reflects new conceptual discoveries,
derivations, and conclusions. This development is evident in worship practices and
moral customs, as a better
understanding of the unity of these three aspects of theology leads to a deeper
comprehension and refinement of moral customs and their application.
patristic hierarchical:
Hierarchical Principle
When one ordains a deacon, he is chosen according to what has been said above, with
only the bishop laying on his hand in the same manner.
In the ordination of a deacon, only the bishop lays on his hand, because the deacon
is not ordained to the priesthood, but to the service of the bishop,
to do that which he commands. For he is not part of the council of the clergy, but
acts as a manager, and reports to the bishop what is necessary.
He does not receive the spirit common to the elders, which the elders share, but
that which is entrusted to him under the bishop’s authority.
This is why only the bishop makes a deacon. Upon the elders, the other elders place
their hands because of a common spirit and similar duty.
Indeed, the elder has only the authority to receive this, but he has no authority
to give it. Therefore he does not ordain to the clergy.
Upon the ordination of the elder he seals; the bishop ordains.”
Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, sec. 8, 200 A.D.
Appointment Principle
Hippolytus
“…yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a
people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you
ought to know that the bishop is in the Church,
and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not
in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having
peace with God’s priests, and think that they
communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not
cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of
priests who cohere with one another.
Wherefore, brother, if you consider God’s majesty who ordains priests, if you will
for once have respect to Christ, who by His decree and word, and by His presence,
both rules prelates themselves,
and rules the Church by prelates”
Cyprian, Letter 68, sec. 8-9 250 A.D.
Monarchial Principle-
Hippolytus
“It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great Synod that, in some districts
and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters, whereas neither
canon nor custom
permits that they who have no right to offer should give the Body of Christ to them
that do offer. And this also has been made known, that certain deacons now touch
the Eucharist even
before the bishops. Let all such practices be utterly done away, and let the
deacons remain within their own bounds, knowing that they are the ministers of the
bishop and the inferiors
of the presbyters. Let them receive the Eucharist according to their order, after
the presbyters, and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer to them.
Furthermore,
let not the deacons sit among the presbyters, for that is contrary to canon and
order. And if, after this decree, any one shall refuse to obey, let him be deposed
from the diaconate.”
Council of Nicea Canon 18, 325 A.D.
that possession of authority is ultimately derived from God alone (Heb 5:4, Rom
13:1, John 15:16, Mat 16:19, Acts 20:28),
therfore the Church is the very means established by Christ to communicate the
gospel. In that sense, the Church (the covenant family)
herself constitutes an irreducible aspect of the gospel itself.
and that very means by which the truth of the Christian faith will be transmited
(Ephesians 3:10)
Premise 3:
If it's more likely that the Catholic Church is true and Christ established it,
then those who are not part of it risk going against Christ and jeopardizing their
salvation.
C) Possession of authority is ultimately derived from God alone (Heb 5:4, Rom 13:1,
John 15:16, Mat 16:19, Acts 20:28), and
the Church's authority includes sacramental continuity in ordination/Ex opere
operato* (1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5, 2 Tim 1:6)
This Authority posseses a power to teach, discipline, reward (1 Timothy 5:17,
Matthew 18:15-17) and offer sacrifice, anoint, forgive sins, ordain (Luke 22:19,
John 20:21-23, James 5:14-15,).
D) That it is necessary for the individual believer to reliably come to know the
contents and entailments of revelation by way of being taught: see Acts 8:30-31
D) That the Church is the very means by which the truth of the Christian faith will
be transmited: see Ephesians 3:10
C) the Holy Spirit is safeguarding trustworthy doctrines in the Church (1 Timothy
6:20, 2 Timothy 1:14, Proverbs 22:28)
We represent Christ on analogy with Christ's representation of the Father (John
20:21) as instruments of God's Redemptive work, the Church is Christ manifested on
this earth
and we serve to establish his offices (Romans 1:13, Romans 8:18-19)
B) The Church, unified by the Holy Spirit (who unifies Father and Son: John 17:22),
is a twofold unity in mind and judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2, 1
Peter 3:8),
with the Spirit as the guarantor of its mind/doctrine (Acts 15:24) and judgment
(Matthew 18:17-18, Acts 15:28),
A) Church Catholic with The Spirit working through the bishops in unity with Christ
through Peter (Luke 22:32) is serving as the public authority through which Christ
is heard (Luke 10:16),
with Christ as the head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2) and its
doctrine informed by Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 2:16).
The prerogatives of Jesus as High Priest go to His Bishops, who manifest His
heavenly ministry.
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That it is necessary for the individual believer to reliably come to know the
contents and entailments of revelation by way of being taught: see Acts 8:30-31.
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CHURCH CHIASMUS ARGUMENT
A) Jesus Christ established a visible (Temple) authoritative (Priesthood) body as
prophesied in 2 Samuel 7:13-14, Isaiah 66:21 and fulfilled in Matthew 16:16-18.
B) Scriptures call and requires us to listen (Matthew 18:17, Revelation 3:21-22, 1
John 4:6) and to obey (Hebrews 13:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:12),
as the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
C) Possession of authority is ultimately derived from God alone according to the
theocratic principle (Heb 5:4, Rom 13:1, John 15:16, Mat 10:40, Matthew 21:33-41,
Acts 20:28), and
the Church's authority includes sacramental continuity in ordination Ex opere
operato* (1 Timothy 5:22, Titus 1:5, 2 Tim 1:6)
This Authority possesses a power to teach, discipline, reward (1 Timothy 5:17,
Matthew 18:15-17) and offer sacrifice, anoint, forgive sins as well as ordain
[Bishops] (Luke 22:19, John 20:21-23, James 5:14-15,).
D) That the Church is the very means by which the truth of the Christian faith will
be transmitted: see Ephesians 3:10, Matthew 28:19
D) That it is necessary for the individual believer to reliably come to know the
contents and entailments of revelation by way of being taught: see Acts 8:30-31
C) the Holy Spirit is safeguarding trustworthy doctrines in the Church (1 Timothy
6:20, 2 Timothy 1:14, Proverbs 22:28) and
we represent Christ on analogy with Christ's representation of the Father (John
20:21) as instruments of God's Redemptive work (Acts 9:15, Romans 1:13),
the Church is Christ manifested on this earth, and we serve to establish his
offices which are hierarchical (Acts 6:2-5, Eph 4:11, 3 John 1:9),
the prerogatives of Jesus as High Priest go to His Bishops, who manifest His
heavenly ministry In persona Christi* (2 Corinthians 2:10, Matthew 9:8, Matthew
19:28-30, Deuteronomy 10:8-9, Deuteronomy 33:8–10)
B) The Church, unified by the Holy Spirit who unifies Father and Son* (John 17:22),
is a twofold unity in mind and judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2, 1
Peter 3:8),
with the Spirit as the guarantor of its mind/doctrine (Acts 15:24) and judgment
(Matthew 18:17-18, Acts 15:28),
A) Church Catholic with The Spirit working through the bishops in unity with Christ
through His royal vizier (Luke 22:32, John 21:17) is serving as the public
authority through which Christ is heard (Luke 10:16),
with Christ as the head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2) and its
doctrine informed by Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 2:16).
--when you have faith in the Genesis acount are you forfeiting you higher thinking
faculties because you think Bible has more authroity
then what science espouses, scientist that uses reason and objective methods to
come to the truth of evolution
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1 Corinthians 1:10
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no
divisions among you,
but that you be perfectly united in mind and judgement
Proverbs 22:28
28 Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.
Timothy 6:20
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless
chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
Acts 15:24
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed
you, troubling your minds by what they said.
-they were not sent by us
John 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, “Peace be unto you. As My Father hath sent Me, even
so send I you.”
Acts 15:28-29
28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything
beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to
idols,
from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will
do well to avoid these things.
In Matthew 23, when Jesus criticizes the Pharisees who sit on the seat of Moses, he
says that by their teaching, they “bind heavy burdens”
Isaiah chapter 66
, in Isaiah chapter 66, we are told that when God reveals His glory in all things,
making the entire creation His dwelling place and Temple, He will take Gentiles to
be priests and Levites.
Given that Levi is a tribal classification,
this signifies the reality that in the Messianic age, God will fundamentally
transfigure and restructure the order of Israel's priesthood so that Gentiles are
adopted as full members of the family of Abraham.
Luke 10 16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever
rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
1 Corinthians 2:16
for,
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So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official
in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake
(which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,
Acts 8:30-31
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet.
“Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip
to come up and sit with him.
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Jesus Christ established a visible (Temple) authoritative (Priesthood) body as
prophesied in 2 Samuel 7:13-14, Isaiah 66:21 and fulfilled in Matthew 16:16-18.
Church Catholic with The Spirit working through the bishops in unity with Christ
through Peter's office (Luke 22:32, John 21:17) is serving as the public authority
through which Christ is heard (Luke 10:16),
with Christ as the head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2) and its
doctrine informed by Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 2:16).
That the Church is the very means by which the truth of the Christian faith will be
transmitted (Ephesians 3:10, Matthew 28:19) and
it's necessary the individual believer to reliably come to know the contents and
entailments of revelation by way of being taught (Acts 8:30-31)
Luke 22:32,
_______
Chapter 44. The Ordinances of the Apostles, that There Might Be No Contention
Respecting the Priestly Office.
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife
on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as
they had obtained
a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already
mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep,
other approved men should succeed
them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them,
or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who
have blamelessly served the flock of Christ,
in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time
possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.
For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate
those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those
presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful
and perfect departure [from this world];
for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them.
But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry,
which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.