Interview with Mikhail Gorbachev'It Was
Impossible To Go On Living Like Before'
In a DER SPIEGEL interview, former Soviet Union President Mikhail Gorbachev
speaks about the fall of the Berlin Wall, why perestroika was unavoidable and the
present-day relationship between the West and Russia.
Von Anna Sadovnikova
08.11.2019, 18.00 Uhr
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Former leader of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev
Foto: Yuriy Chichkov/ DER SPIEGEL
Mikhail Gorbachev was the general secretary of the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union and the country's president until 1991. During his tenure, he
pushed through important liberal reforms with his policies of perestroika
("restructuring") and glasnost ("openness") and helped end the Cold War. He
was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990.
Today, the 88-year-old Gorbachev lives in a dacha in a Moscow suburb and
continues to be an active participant in the political debate. For health
reasons, only part of the interview was conducted in person in the offices of
his foundation in Moscow. The rest was conducted in writing.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Gorbachev, the Berlin Wall came down on Nov. 9,
1989. Thirty years on, how do you look back on this event?
Gorbachev: My view of German unity is the same today as it was back
then. Unification was one of the most important things I've ever done. It
had a huge impact on many people's lives. I appreciate this day very much
and I have great admiration for every person who was involved.
DER SPIEGEL: Did the fall of the Berlin Wall surprise you?
Gorbachev: We followed the events in the German Democratic Republic
very closely. The demand for change was omnipresent. In early October
1989, during celebrations marking the 40th anniversary of the GDR's
founding, I watched young members of the ruling party marching in
columns and expressing their sympathy for our perestroika and chanting:
'Gorbachev, help us!' Spontaneous demonstrations were taking place in the
large cities of the GDR and were becoming more massive every day. And
there were an increasing number of banners that read, 'We are one people!'
On Oct. 18, Erich Honecker had to vacate his post and was replaced by
Egon Krenz. But the reforms came too late. In a meeting of our politburo
on Nov. 3, a week before the fall of the Berlin Wall, during a discussion
about the situation in Germany, the chairman of the Committee for State
Security said: "Tomorrow, 500,000 people will take to the streets of Berlin
and other cities..."
DER SPIEGEL: What responses did you consider?
Gorbachev: No one doubted that the Germans had a right to decide their
own fate. But the interests of neighboring states and of the global
community also had to be taken into account. My main responsibility was
to rule out the possibility of violence. We negotiated intensively with
(West German Chancellor) Helmut Kohl, Krenz, the Americans and
Europe's leading figures. We had to prevent the German desire for
reunification from reviving the Cold War.
DER SPIEGEL: Did military leaders in the GDR or the Soviet ambassador
in East Berlin call for military intervention?
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Gorbachev: We communicated with political leaders in the GDR, but I
never maintained direct contacts with the military. It was our ambassador's
job to inform us as precisely as possible about what was happening in the
country and not to make any demands.
DER SPIEGEL: Were any demands made after Nov. 9 for the Berlin Wall
to be rebuilt?
Gorbachev: I wasn't aware of any. But I don't rule out the possibility that
some irresponsible people or fringe groups discussed such a ridiculous
idea. Trying to hinder a historical process in such a manner is like trying to
stop a train by lying down on the tracks.
ANZEIGE
DER SPIEGEL: Were you asked to close the border and deploy troops?
Gorbachev: Which borders should have been closed? Where should the
troops have marched? There were 380,000 Soviet soldiers stationed in the
GDR at the time. They obeyed orders to refrain from intervening.
DER SPIEGEL: Why did you permit the GDR, a close ally of Moscow's, to
fall? In other places, such as the Baltic states in 1991, you were much
tougher. Lithuanian demonstrations for their country's independence were
brutally suppressed.
Gorbachev: We saw West Germany as a country that embarked on a path
to democracy after the collapse of the Hitler regime. And unification is
understood today, as it was 30 years ago, as the fulfillment of long-held
desires of the citizens of East and West Germany. As far as I can tell from
the many letters, these people are still grateful for Russia's support. You
blame me for the bloodshed in Latvia and Lithuania. As president, I was of
course responsible for everything that went on there. But if you study the
documents from this time, you'll see that I always tried to solve conflicts
politically.
DER SPIEGEL: When you came to power in 1985, you signaled to Eastern
Bloc states that they had to be able to exist independently of Moscow. Did
you suspect at the time that one day the wall between East and West would
fall?
Gorbachev: Do you really believe that a wall separating East and West was
our ideal scenario? Or a model for the future? We created perestroika to
lead the country out of a dead end. In order for the state and economy to
flourish, we needed good relations not just with our neighbors, but with
the entire world. We didn't need the Iron Curtain. We wanted to get rid of
the wall of mistrust between East and West -- and all other walls, for that
matter, between states, groups of people and individuals.
DER SPIEGEL: You have studied Marxist-Leninist ideas. How did it come
about that you began fighting for the right of nations to self-
determination? Why did a Marxist, of all people, allow the fall of the Berlin
Wall to happen?
Gorbachev: I can see that you've long since forgotten what it was that
Marx, Engels or Lenin wrote. Or perhaps you never read them? Here's a
famous quote: "A nation cannot become free and at the same time
continue to oppress other nations." In 1914, Lenin wrote a book called, "The
Right of Nations to Self-Determination." Then, after the October
Revolution, he argued with Stalin about this subject. The Stalinist USSR
was, in the end, a unified, strictly centralized state. Our allies, the countries
of Eastern Europe, were also under the strict surveillance of Moscow.
During the years of perestroika, we abandoned the "doctrine of limited
sovereignty." When I told the leaders of these countries that they were
independent in their decisions, many did not believe me at first. But we
turned words into deeds. That is why we did not interfere in the
reunification of Germany.
DER SPIEGEL: You gave the Germans reunification but soon after, you
lost your position and the USSR disintegrated. How do you look back on
this today?
Gorbachev: Why don't you just ask me whether I regret perestroika? No, I
don't. It was impossible to go on living like before. And an essential piece
of perestroika was this new kind of foreign policy thinking. It included
universal values and nuclear disarmament as well as free elections. We
couldn't deprive neighboring countries, the Germans, Czechs, Slovaks,
Hungarians, of the rights and liberties that we granted our own people.
When we began perestroika, we knew we were taking a risk. But the entire
state leadership agreed that changes were necessary. The blame for the end
of perestroika and the collapse of the Soviet Union lies in the hands of
those who organized the August 1991 coup and took advantage of the
weakened position of the president of the Soviet Union afterward.
DER SPIEGEL: Is the world a better place today than it was during the
Cold War?
Foto: DER SPIEGEL
The article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue
46/2019 (November 9th, 2019) of DER SPIEGEL.
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Gorbachev: I don't feel any nostalgia when it comes to the Cold War. And
I don't wish it upon anyone that those times return. We must concede that
after the end of the Cold War, new leaders failed to create a modern
security architecture, especially in Europe. As a result, new dividing lines
were created and NATO's eastward expansion shifted these lines to Russia's
border.
DER SPIEGEL: Aren't relations between Russia and the West just as bad
today as during the Cold War?
Gorbachev: If one keeps repeating the same demands over and over,
nothing good can come of it. There are signs that both the West and Russia
understand that communication channels must be activated. The rhetoric
is gradually changing. Perhaps this is the first step. Of course, we still have
a long way to go before confidence is restored. I am convinced that we
must begin with nuclear disarmament. I recently called on all nuclear
powers to make a joint declaration against nuclear war. Negotiations must
resume between Russia and the United States and consultations must
begin with other nuclear powers.
DER SPIEGEL: Many people in Europe are following events in Russia with
concern. It seems Moscow has abandoned the principles of perestroika.
Gorbachev: I don't think the situation is as dramatic as you describe it.
People know very well to appreciate the progress that has been made in
this country. Now we face a new challenge: globalization.
DER SPIEGEL: What attitude should a reunified Germany adopt toward
Russia?
Gorbachev: It's important that Germans, including politicians, understand
the Russians. Russia went through autocracy, serfdom and the repressive
Stalinist regime. It is a difficult history. In the 1980s, we embarked on the
path of reform. There were mistakes and failures. We can argue about how
far we have come on the road to real democracy, but we're not going to
backslide into a totalitarian system. Today, we must forge ahead, using that
which we have achieved as a basis. And we must do so in the spirit of the
treaty we signed during the reunification of Germany.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Gorbachev, thank you for this interview.
