So I'm here with the wonderful Dr.

Kristina Hall, who's doing the first and

last module of the Master Practitioner this year, and anybody that comes
away is due for a real treat. Because I mean, I've trained for lots of times
now and every single time I learn more and more and more celebrity
journey, and, and when I first trained with you, and at the end of the
training, I said, I really want to take you home with me
and I have ever seen.
And one of the wonderful things I like when I'm training with you is when
delegates first realize that you're the originator of the swish pattern,
together with Joel together with Richard. Yes, you can see that was Rob.
And that really does give them a piece of history and shows them that
you were there in the very beginning of your NLP course the beginning,
there were some people there before I was, but it was really what I what
I what I call the pioneering days once, because it was so fascinating,
because in those days, it was really all about exploring, discovering, and
lot of experimenting going on. And I found that so exciting. So that that
that that's still that's still my approach to training and learning. You know,
I mean, since that time, of course, there's been lots of techniques
developed in NLP, and there are quite good techniques. However, it's not
a technique in and of itself if that works. That's right. Absolutely. Because
techniques without language behind empty techniques, and then we go
known as the true language master, and languages, you know, NLP is
middle name. So why are linguistic skills so valuable? And so useful for
everybody to develop? Well, first of all, okay.
languages have become,
perhaps our primary community communication resource. And it's really
interesting thing about language we all learned, especially in our native
native tongues, so to speak. We've all learned that unconsciously through
process of modeling. Okay. So
that means that when somebody asks a question or makes a statement,
okay, is that all that language is processed at the unconscious level first.
So that means a consciously, you know, we're not going to be aware of,
I call it the presuppositions in etc, you know, that we use to, to organize
the information at full level. And I think, perhaps most people don't
realize a lot of people and I certainly did when I started exploring
language, that
I think people are quite aware of the fact that our perceptions shape our
language. But you know what,
I really wonder about that.
And if people realize how powerful our perceptions are, in terms of
shaping the language that we use, and the other part of that feedback
loop is that our language shapes our perception. And
I've written one book, unfortunately, can't read it, because it's ancient
Japanese. Anyway. And it's the name of the name of the book is, you
know, change your language change your experience. It might be
changed your life. I'm not sure. The Japanese.
But anyway, I know from my exploration of language, which really started
it started long before I ever had NLP, because my mom was a store
professional storyteller. So I was always fascinated by words. And
I never considered myself very adaptive communication skills writing was,
was really, really difficult. However, I always, I was fascinated by certain
speakers. And what I realized was that what fascinated me about it is how
I responded, you know, like I could, I could feel things going on, you
know, and, and my thoughts changing my feelings changing.
I think it's really, really essential because when you're working with
people, whether it's in the context of doing training, whether you know,
people or coaches managers, and not only working with other people, but
your own internal dialogue, that you really are shaping your thinking, and
consequently your behavior through the language that you use. Yes, I
find it amazing that people say, Oh, no, I couldn't. I couldn't repeat to
myself. Oh, I am beautiful, clever, you know, but they can repeat to
themselves. I'm ugly. Yeah.
things. So some of your legendary language intensive programs, former
partner salads, Martin Peck, and as we said, You're doing the first module.
So what are some things that you're particularly excited to be sharing
with people during this language intensive?
Okay, there's a lot of stuff. I don't know if we have enough time in our
interview, some of the things that I'm really, really excited about is what
is what I refer to as the Hidden influences in language. Okay, hidden
meaning that these particular patterns typically bypass conscious
recognition. And that's what makes them so powerful. See, because we
basically process language first at the unconscious level, that means that
long before we respond consciously, we've already had to organize the
information according to the processes, presupposed by the
presuppositions. Okay, in the questions, okay. And
I call them hidden, because the conscious mind doesn't have to identify
and rarely does, okay? All the presuppositions if that's not needed in
order to make sense of it. So you're literally you're literally asking people
to go through certain processes in their thinking. Okay, so for example,
one of my favorites. Yeah, I could ask. My background is that in a second
is psychologist that's what it did before me to NLP. And what we learned
in terms of when somebody came into the office said, What is your
problem?
Okay, now, I didn't know there were other ways of asking that question.
Okay. Then when I started to explore that we sort of like officially, okay,
because that's what got me to NLP in the first place. Okay, is that you can
ask the question in a different way, that would invite the little bit stronger
than that. But I like to use the invite them to organize the information
differently. See, the metamodel is not only about gathering information,
that's one application that every question you will ask somebody is a
process of organizing the information and reorganizing the information.
So I could ask, well, you know, what is it that you have perceived as a
problem?
And it's a relatively simple question. However, by using what have you
perceived, okay? There's already certain presuppositions, okay, and it will
change the organization of the elements of their perception. And as a
problem will also have certain effect. And I tailor the things that I just
love the most is what to ask people. And when to say one way, can you
just notice your response? That I'm going to ask you in another way, and
just notice how your response is different? And to watch the expressions
on people's face when they finally go? Wow, that was really different. You
know, how language really does impact your experience. We had an
example of that today, in the demonstration.
All
right, just the differences. Looked really disappointed. Yeah, same
questions you asked, there's exactly the same question. At least you did.
One word is Yeah.
You know, it always does, it continues to really extend.
So could you say that language doesn't start at the mouth? All right.
Yeah. I think a lot of times some, you know, I used to think that you
know, that my words, my memory started to jump in the mouth. Okay,
this relates back to, you know, that your perceptions shape your
language, okay? So you reorganize something, you know, into a different
pattern is going to change the language that you use, okay? So then, and
then the language that you use influences your perception. So it's really
kind of the chicken or the egg phenomenon. You know, it's it's a constant
feedback loop. So through your language, you're not only directing for the
other person how to think you're also influenced by the language that you
use as well.
So it starts long before it comes in the mouth.
I've trained with lots of lots of people but the difference with you is the
way you physicalize exercises, I mean, you like to put movement into
exercise. So can you give me an idea of exactly why that's so beneficial.
Okay, one of the ways in which we make sense out of all the sensory data
is through labeling process, okay. And language can very often
I would say through language
the way that we analyze our experience
conceptualize our experience and describe our experience can
say,
seemed like experiences, Derek, because as soon as you say that's
curiosity. Okay, so that kind of language says, that's all it is, there's no,
there's possibilities, okay? The same thing applies not that that's good or
bad, okay? However, that applies also, when somebody says I am limited,
okay? Because using language in that way, actually implies at a deeper at
a deeper level, because one of my absolute passions is taking the surface
structure. And just from taking the surface structure, what patterns I call
the underlying menu, okay? And the patterns from which that statement
is generated, and don't have to explore every single pattern, like all of the
metamodel patterns, just the larger level patterning because they will
automatically bring into connection other patterns. And then meta
programs come into play. Okay. And then the well form is conditions, or
Ill formed conditions, yes. So, you know, basically, the outcome frame,
you know, conditions for a well formed outcome, you know, so, the,
to meet the, the benefit of that is that
it gives people like, a map, you like a menu, so, you go into a restaurant,
and it will list like the dishes that are, you know, available, you know, the
kinds of things that you can choose from, okay. Now, this underlying
menu, you know, gives the, you know, the set of patterning that's
involved.
It's at the level of pattern, okay, the level of structure, not so much
content, okay. And, like, for example, if somebody says, I'm Unlimited,
okay, that particular pattern, but there's several there, but it presupposes
they're in a passive position, that the source of change is external. So
basically, you know, what that means is they, this isn't going to be in
their awareness, okay? That they don't perceive themselves as as being
able to influence their experience, okay. And it's also stated as universal.
So you don't have to have always and never in a statement, so they
didn't say, I'm limited from time to time, or I'm limited when I'm doing
this. They said this as if it was all the time, that's a very large level of
patterning. And it automatically brings in to affect other things. So when
you ask the question like, Well,
how did you arrive at that particular conclusion? That That question is
already inviting them back into the active position? Okay, how did you
arrive at that particular conclusion, and they have to go back through a
process in order to know how they arrived there, they have to go through
the process, there has to be movement in order to make meaning of
something. I remember when
Oh, God, it was a long time ago, my early days with Ben and Granger
Bandler said, maples, they both may have said it each in their own way.
That the most revolutionary and evolutionary change that human beings
can make this data, normalize their experience, seekers through
language, language tends to fix experience, okay? However, it's, it's it's
like a nominalized
coded version of ongoing process. In other words,
through the labeling process, you're describing, using a fixed label, so to
speak, to describe something that's ongoing and changing. So when you
add movement back, okay, at six, you have to stop a process in order to
label Yeah. So when it when people you know, add the movement back
into situations, with certain processes for doing that.
It's like, you can you can just see them, it's like they come alive and
they're vibrant. And they report really makes a big difference in your
experience. Yeah, I've seen that. When you try.
Something else that I've noticed that every time I've trained with you,
there'll be different exercises. You're not the kind of trainer that churns
out the same things all the time so you know exactly what you're going to
get which is probably why so many people will train with you again and
again because it
It's always fun kind of, for the elf coming out of the box. I mean, how is it
that you keep developing exercises to new insights keep coming to you?
Yeah, yeah. And most often based on feedback that then, you know,
they'd like, when I ask questions, you know, and people offer their ideas,
and, you know, what if some of your ideas in relation to, you know,
whatever the content is, choose,
I listened, I listened to the, the observations that people make and the
ideas that they offer. And sometimes they'll say things like, Oh, that's a
great idea. I think I'm gonna just the exercise and have that peace, you
know, stuff like that. Another really important thing is, every group is
different. Okay, there's never been this, this gathering of people ever
before and never again. But you're back for a second time. We've been
together before. But it's different, because there's different people here.
Okay. There's certain exercises, I always do. Okay, in, especially in
training or training, because they're always examples of the the
organizational frameworks, you know, the key design elements for
organizing training, they also happen to be the same underlying principles
that make the techniques work. Yeah. And when people begin to
understand that faith in how these processes work, they developed some
techniques. Okay, so anyway, so there's certain things that I always do.
And then I make adjustments along the way, you know, based on
feedback, you know,
but a lot of times, to participants how to put it, like, I might ask a
question like, well, what have been some of your, your learnings and
discoveries in relation to Okay, and they'll say certain things that lets me
know,
you know, how they're progressing towards accomplishing the outcomes
that I said, and they are considered except for themselves. So very often,
I've got all okay, I need to include this exercise here. Like the one you
just did here the first time you've done that exercise. Yeah. Yeah.
Because there are certain things that people say, and I saw people do this
when I needed to do right this time. Yeah. So I wouldn't always know that
in the bands. But I always have a lot of exercises, extra ones, just in
case.
But no, had I not done, you know, binding to all to do that one. I have
extra other exercises where you would have the experience, not only
intellectually but physically. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
The significance of feedback. So do you calibrate to the group with so
each Yeah.
Yeah, when you think fixed, no, just have certain ideas when because
people like fixed
just yet, you know, as we go along? Yeah. Yeah. Because even the
sequence, the first thing was different, you know, a lot of similarities, but
it was still
in yesterday as well. Yeah. Yeah.
To not do that, to make it like a canned presentation, this and everything,
just, you know, exactly the same way every time. I really consider it
disrespectful. Because then okay, we're like treating people like objects,
you know, and that taking into consideration, you know, their experience,
because we cannot not influence and be influenced. So, you know, not
only am I you know, influencing their experience, they're also influencing
my experience. And they're really,
genuinely guiding me in a way to know what to do next, that kind of
thing. So while shaping the process together actually makes it even more
exciting. It does. It always does. No training. So everyone's really not.
That's part of the excitement for me. And one of the questions that you
ask that come up in exercises is what are some of the big discoveries,
insights and learnings so far on your journey of NLP mastery? So I just
like to ask, what are some of yours?
Oh.
Long before I ever started doing training, one of the most profound
experiences that I had, was in my very status. Well, actually, my very
first day of NLP training, was volunteered for demonstration. All of all of
my training was with
Banner green in
starting 97
to seven. Anyway, they did a demonstration with me, I had no idea what
I was getting into. Because they said it's like, anchoring. I came in late,
so I didn't know what they were talking about. But I thought, you know,
the best way, you know, to learn more about this stamp the experience of
it, because one of the things that I, the questions that I had, in my own
mind, as a therapist, is what are people doing when they're making
changes? Because we had learned, we've always been told in graduate
school, that learning that the change is long and painful. Okay, that didn't
always say, Well, me, so to speak. And so I volunteered for this
demonstration. And
it was such a profound experience. Because I remember when, when
Richard touchy, he said some things and touch me on one shoulder. And I
could feel as he was talking to me, before he touched me on the shoulder,
I can feel these changes going on in life and my kinesthetics and stuff,
and not my emotional feelings, but my bodily sensations. And then John
started talking. And then I felt other changes in my bodily sensation, I
really wasn't aware of any pictures I was. So the feelings were so intense.
And it wasn't that that one was better than the other, they were different.
And I remember saying to myself, well, this is change occurring. And this
has only been in five in the first five minutes. And then when they
touched my shoulder the same this email, at the same time. I don't think
I've ever experiencing that. That was just incredible. In and what what I
got off with that, from that it was so profound, is that
change doesn't have to be long and painful. I went through a lot of
changes, just in that very short amount of time.
That
that would have asked him to time, you know, so that gave me a lot of
hope, that once I started learning about that deeper structure, that I was
that I have to say I had an experience of what means change. Yeah. And
then the second one was about reframing, where you know, the story
what what I got from dad was to Richard use of language, I had, I had
labeled something as confusion. And I thought that that stopped me from
learning, okay. And when I went up to return in sending, I'm confused,
and don't know what to do, he responded to me in such a way that it
changed since that moment in time, the way that, that I thought about
what I thought was confusion,
people when they come training
every day. So what I look, what I've realized from that, that really sort of
intensified my inspiration of language, is that
by
perhaps with the addition of a word by using an ING,
you know, like,
you know, to create movement, okay.
By adding a little phrase, you know, could say, what, what did you think
was the problem until now, profoundly changes somebody's experience. I
mean, I, and I'm just, I'm continually amazed at how powerful language
is. And I think, from that, that experience with Richard, because he
always made me to come in and what he said yes, but it changed for ever
thought about communication changed a lot of people.
I'm so happy to share, you know, I
made a very big difference in my life, and enrich my experience in ways
that I
will, you know, countless ways. The other the other thing that had made
a profound difference in my life is when I in my in my work with people
too, is when I started exploring time.
Because I remember
when I was in my first NLP trainings, it was always like, in time through
time, had no idea who we talking about, you know, and then one day I
heard somebody, I was talking with a friend, and she was saying things
like from time to time sometimes, and then when
we perhaps have something else going on here and
And that's kind of my inspiration into the structures of time because I
realized that I wasn't
using time, especially through time in a way that made it easy to
accomplish certain tasks, obviously.
And other things, yeah, that that profound really transformed my life. And
I'm still excited. I love teaching these things and, and hoping people that,
you know, that it will help to enrich their experience as well. Definitely. I
mean, when people come to a practitioner, they practitioner tends to be
the techniques and the tools, doesn't it rather than when you get to
Master Practitioner? How, how are you? You know, some people will find
challenges with the, because they've had very practical
training until now. So how will you help them understand things like time
and language and
while there's lots of processes, there's the every technique is a process,
okay? And by, see, when I write out my exercise, give out handouts, I
just don't go step one, set an outcome. Okay.
Step two,
find purpose, okay. Which is a question to start as very often, you know,
step three, future pace, I offer people examples of the language that they
can use, like, because in our community in of itself has no no particular
value. I mean, John, and Richard always said, it must serve a larger
purpose. So needs to be connected in a context, that purpose, because
that's what really gives it you know, the juice for people. So, what or if
you just say, find purpose.
But if you offer people various different ways, like, what would it mean to
you now looking forward to accomplishing this outcome?
What What would it mean to you now, looking back having already
accomplished this outcome, okay, because you're asking people to chunk
up to the level of meaning, you're also using time in a very interesting
way. And then all of this one larger purpose. Okay, so I offer people
examples of the of the of the language. Yeah, you know, and
people have found them really, really helpful. Because I remember, in my
own training in the early days, we always want to know what kind of
words to read.
Yeah, so people have experiences of how these, how these underlying
processes work, you know, and, and, and then through using language
patterns that presuppose these processes, and having the experience of
doing it.
It makes it easy for people to be remembered by example.
Just one last thing, can you just touched on it there a little bit, can you
just say, just give us an idea about your graphics word for it, I use it all
the time. Now, going forward, looking back, I mean, when you say you
can't plan forward, you can only plan and it works every time you go
there first, then you plan and see the steps to get
in though there is forward planning, you can do that, depending on how
somebody chunks time, yes, but some people use smaller chunks of time.
They can plan maybe three months out, gave a lot of outcomes may take
a year may take, you know more years, like you know somebody is gonna
go to graduate school. Now that's going to take at least two years, maybe
longer, and a doctoral program is going to take longer, because you have
a dissertation to do you know, and stuff like that. So, planning three
months, if somebody has, you know, like three months out, they can
plan. Well, what happens after that is sort of like drops off, okay? If, if
you when people choose the longest timeframe in the chunk it down into
into time frame smaller timeframes that they consider as manageable for
them. So let's say now, who's going to do this? Well, I'd like to have it
completed within a year. So what would be the smaller time increments
they know that you can manage you know, in order to, you know,
accomplish this outcome? People, people people know, so that one guy
said, it would be a year and he said, three months, six months, nine
months and then the year so then in this process, you go three months
into the future, looking back
and notice what you were doing in the process
to build the progressions. Okay, build the connections, okay, otherwise
makes it very difficult for people
to accomplish what they set out to accomplish its