REVIT PURE PRESENTS

PAMPHLETS

ISSUE #25 / SUMMER 2022

GROUPS
PART 1

revitpure.com
© Copyright 2022 - BIM Pure Productions
by: Nicolas Catellier, Architect
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REVIT PURE - © Copyright 2022 - BIM Pure Productions

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REVIT PURE - © Copyright 2022 - BIM Pure Productions

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WHAT IS THIS “PAMPHLET”?

Revit Pure Pamphlets are published 4 times a year by email. Each
edition covers a particular Revit theme. We like to pick themes
that are complex and confusing. Our job is to make these topics
simple for you.

WHY TALK ABOUT GROUPS?

Model groups in Revit have a bad reputation. Many users avoid
them completely. Indeed, they can be buggy.

However, they are still the best option when it comes to modeling
repetitive interior layouts like apartments. This post starts with
an overview of the tool. Then, you will get tips to have a smooth
experience using groups.

This is the first pamphlet in our series about group. Next issue will
explore advanced workflows using Dynamo.

Let’s get started!

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MANAGE LEARNING PACKAGE

We’ve recently released a new course dedicated to BIM

managers who want to become Revit masters. Click on this link
to get the entire course.

LEARN MORE
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BASIC PRINCIPLES OF CREATING GROUPS

CREATING A GROUP

Select multiple elements. In the Modify tab, select the “Create

Group” tools. Set a name to the group. You can then copy and
paste the group.

To modify a group, select it and click the Edit Group icon.

The group has a yellow-ish tint around it. When you are done,
click the green check to complete.

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Use the ungroup tool to make the elements independent.

Use the Add/Remove tool once inside a group to add

and remove elements to the group.

SETTING THE ORIGIN

Each group has an origin represented by a blue dot. This origin

can be moved. Typically, you should place it located at the
intersection of important walls or grids.

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This origin can be used when creating a model group. Although

most people create groups with the copy and paste tool, it can
also be placed from the Architecture tab.

Select a type. The placement will be based on the position of the

group’s origin.

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GROUPS IN THE PROJECT BROWSER

There is a whole part of the project browser dedicated to groups.

You can drag and drop a group from here to create a new
instance.

It is also possible to Edit a group from here by using the right-

click menu. This is different from opening the group by selecting
one in the model. This opens a different Revit file that you need
to save.

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CONVERT GROUPS TO LINK

It is possible to convert a group to a Revit link. Click this tool in

the ribbon:

You will need to enter a name to the linked Revit file. The reverse
is also possible. Once a Revit link is in the project, you can Bind
Link to convert it to a group.

This process might cause a few issues, so be careful.

ATTACHED DETAIL GROUPS

There are two group types in Revit: model groups and detail
groups. Model elements cannot be part of a detail group and
vice-versa.

However, you can attach a detail group to a model group. In

this example, we create dimensions, a wall tag and a room
tag referring to elements from group B. When grouping the
annotation elements, Revit asks us to create an attached detail
group. Name it consistently.

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Then, select a different instance of this model group. You should

now see the “Attached Detail Groups” icon in the modify tab.
Click it and select the correct detail group to attach.

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19 TIPS TO AVOID ISSUES WITH GROUPS

1- NEVER USE DATUM ELEMENTS INSIDE GROUPS

Datum elements include:

• Grids
• Levels
• Reference Planes
• Scope Boxes

Having a level inside of a group is probably the worst thing.

2- AVOID IN-PLACE FAMILIES INSIDE GROUPS

In general, you should avoid in-place families. Inside of groups,

they are even more dangerous. Avoid them.

3- BE CAREFUL WITH NESTED GROUPS

Nesting groups (groups inside of groups) isn’t a problem by itself,

but you must be thoughtful about how you use this feature.

Avoid nested groups that could be nested families instead. For

example, if you need a table + chairs, create a nested family
instead of creating a small nested group with these components.

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A few other principles of nested groups:

• Don’t go more than 2 levels deep (a group within a group,

not a group within a group within a group).

• Consider unnesting the groups as the project progress.

• Ask yourself if it’s worth it. For example, if part of a group is

only shared with a single other group, the time saved by
nesting group might not be worth it.

• It might complicate the use of scheduling and Dynamo

automation.

• My workflow: I prefer not to use nested groups.

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4- BE CAREFUL WITH MIRRORING GROUPS

Contrary to popular belief, mirroring the groups will not cause

corruption or break the groups.

However, some elements will be “reversed” even if they shouldn’t

be.

For example, plumbing hot water vs cold water will not be in the
right position. Be careful with liability!

To be extra safe, it might be better to have right and left variants

for each group.

If you still decide to mirror groups, explore and verify them first to
ensure nothing is broken.

Some people (ahem, Revit Cat) think you should never mirror
anything because it messes up the ElementID and causes
problems with hosted families. Link here.

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5- BE CAREFUL WHEN EXCLUDING ELEMENTS

The “exclude element” tool allows you to remove elements in a

specific group instance.

In theory, it is helpful. In practice, it makes me a little nervous.

Was the element deliberately excluded? Is it a mistake or a bug?

Excluding elements can be automatically done when there

are host/hosted elements issues. It might indicate there are
problems with the group.

My workflow: I generally avoid using “Exclude Element”.

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If you decide to exclude elements from a group instance to

reduce the number of group types in the project, document the
process and let users know it has been a deliberate decision.

My workflow: I avoid using “Exclude Element”.

6- NEVER USE THE “FIX GROUPS” OPTION

The “Fix groups…” tool doesn’t fix groups at all. Instead, it will
either ungroup the group or duplicate the group with a new
name.

When you get that warning, click cancel and manually fix the
problem.

You often get the problem with hosting/hosted elements getting

separated.

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As you can see below, the possible “fix groups” options won’t fix
your problem at all.

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7- NEVER LOCK SKETCH-BASED COMPONENTS

INSIDE GROUPS

If you try to constrain a sketch-based element (floors, ceilings

or roofs) to an element that isn’t inside a group, you will get a
warning that prevents you from doing it.

If you try to add a sketch-constrained element to a group after it

is created, you will get this warning:

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8- DON’T LOCK AND CONSTRAIN A GROUP TO AN

OUTSIDE ELEMENT

In the example below, a user constrained a group to a window

that is not part of the group. This is a terrible idea! If you move
one of the elements, you will likely get a warning and cause
potentially cause problems in your model.

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9- DON’T INCLUDE EXTERIOR ELEMENTS,

CORRIDORS AND PARTY WALLS

Don’t include exterior elements in a group created for repeating

interior parts like hotel rooms, apartments, patient rooms, etc.
Exterior and interior don’t mix well in the same group.

Party walls, corridor walls and corridor doors shouldn’t be part of

a group.

You cannot include elements in a group that are hosted on party

or corridor walls. Instead, replace them with non-wall-hosted
elements.

The exception to these rules is modular construction. The content

of a group should reflect the actual components of the module.
The elements built directly on site and that are not part of a
module should not be included in groups.

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10- SET THE TOP OF THE WALLS TO

“UNCONNECTED”

Inside groups, only a single level should be used as a constraint.

The top of the wall should always be unconnected.

If the top of the wall has a level constraint, you risk causing
issues. For example, moving a level will cause the annoying
“Fix Groups” warning.

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If you want to use the same group for levels that might not have
the same distance between them, you can use the Attach Top/
Base. Using this tool only affects specific instances of the walls
and will not cause “fix groups” issues.

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11- INCLUDE BOTH THE HOSTING AND HOSTED

ELEMENTS IN THE GROUP

Always include both the hosting and hosted elements in the

group. Else, you’ll get warnings, bugs and chaos.

In the example below, a toilet is part of a group, but not the

hosting wall. If you copy and paste the group, the corridor wall-
hosted “toilet” is excluded from it. If you try to unexclude the
element, you’ll get a warning.

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12- IF HOSTING ELEMENT CANNOT BE INCLUDED IN

A GROUP, DON’T USE A HOSTED FAMILY

It might be an excellent strategy to completely avoid hosted

families to avoid issues with hosting/hosted elements. For
example, pick a toilet placed on a level instead of a wall-hosted
one.

13- ELEMENTS IN A GROUP SHOULD BE HOSTED/

CONSTRAINED TO A SINGLE LEVEL

Make sure all elements in a group are hosted or constrained to

a single level. We’ve already established that walls should not
be top constrained to a top level but should use “unconnected
height” instead.

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Let’s use another example: ceilings. Make sure to set the ceiling
height from the bottom of the floor, not a negative offset from
the level above. Example: set a 2410mm offset from Level 1, not
-500mm offset from Level 2.

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If you don’t do so, you fight get this warning... with the nasty “Fix
Groups” again!

In addition to walls and ceilings, follow this rule for all other
components, including furniture, plumbing fixtures, lighting
fixtures, floors, etc.

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14- AVOID FACE-BASED FAMILIES INSIDE GROUPS

Face-based families behave weirdly inside groups. For example,

if you offset a whole group, everything moves except the face-
based families. Better to avoid them completely.

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15- USE ROOMS INSIDE GROUPS

Don’t hesitate to use rooms inside groups. The room name

cannot vary from one group instance to another, but the room
number can. Revit will automatically create a new room number
for a new group containing a room. You can adjust this number.

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16- All ELEMENTS INSIDE A GROUP ARE THE SAME

WORKSET

Elements inside groups all belong to the same Workset. This

Workset is assigned directly to the group.

However, each group instance can have a different Workset. It is

generally easier to keep all instances of a group type in the same
Workset. In the image, you can see the Workset of a group can
be changed.

However, the individual Workset of elements inside the group

can’t be changed. The parameter is grayed out.

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17- ELEMENTS INSIDE GROUPS SHOULD HAVE

SAME PHASE SETTINGS

Model groups don’t have “phase created” and “phase

demolished” parameters. However, each element inside the
group does have these parameters.

When you create a group instance, the elements will have the
same “phase created” as the view the group is created on.

For example, you could create a new apartment type group in a

“new” view. When you paste the group in an “existing” view, the
elements inside are set to phase created = “existing”.

The best workflow is to make sure all elements inside group have
the same “phase created” and “phase demolished” settings. This
way, you’ll avoid potential confusion.

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18- DON’T MAKE GROUPS TOO LARGE

Only a single user can modify a group at the same time. The
more elements your group includes, the more complicated it
will be to collaborate. You will fall into permission hell. Don’t
make a group for an entire floor. Instead, create a group for each
apartment or for each module.

19- GROUPS CAN BE POROUS: DISALLOW JOINS

Elements in groups can have a “porous” behavior. For example,

walls inside groups will try to join with surrounding walls that are
not part of the group. While that might be a desirable outcome in
some instances, it is not the case in modular construction.

If the porosity is an issue, use the “Disallow Join” tool.

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CHECK OUT OUR MANAGE COURSE

Did you enjoy this pamphlet? Make sure to check out our
MANAGE learning package, which will help you create great
standards and keep healthy Revit models. Click here to learn
more about the MANAGE course.

LEARN MORE
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THANKS FOR READING!

As always, send your thoughts to [email protected]. I read and
answer all emails. Let me know what theme you want explored
for the next edition.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

This pamphlet wouldn’t be possible without the great content

from the BIM community. Here are some resources that have
been helpful:

Niall Kelly – 8020 BIM – “Revit Groups are Awesome! How to

Make and Edit Revit Groups”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OfkWekWf2I

Niall Kelly – 8020 BIM – “22 Tips for Mastering Revit Groups”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRpoDSg5dPE

Aaron Maller & Jeffrey Pinheiro – TheRevitKid – “Revit Groups vs

Links”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKW1tdyZ8lk

Nivin Nabeel – CanBIM (Building Transformations) – “Big Team,

Big Project, No Time”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l76M5c0S7fE

Belinda Carr – “Groups vs Nested Families”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iKFClg_Imw

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