Equal payments / salaries men and women 

               
DEBATE 
Neeltje van Bussel, Lieke Swinkels, Oliver Evrot and Stef Foppele TG3G                                              
MYO 
Statement: Men and women should be paid equally. 
 
Team leader: Lieke Swinkels 
Speaker: Lieke Swinkels 
researcher: Neeltje van Bussel 
writer and researcher: Stef Foppele 
spy: Oliver Evrot 
 
Logbook: 
Oliver: 
1st debate: 
What? 
I anticipated the opposite's team arguments and made counterarguments to those. I also
looked at their speech of the 1st debate cycle, to make other arguments. I searched for many
sources to support these arguments. 
How much time? 
Searching all the arguments and the sources, thinking, and writing it down all took me about
five hours. 
Participation in debate? 
In the first debating cycle, only Lieke spoke, because it was only a speech in preparation to
the actual debate. In the second debate cycle however, I had used almost all my arguments I
had made, and I also made some sentences and questions for the opposing team up during
the debate. In the second debate cycle only Neeltje and I had the word in our team. 
2nd debate: 
What? 
I answered the three questions asked by the jury to our team. 
How much time? 
To answer the questions, I had to make some research and write them down. That all took
me approximately three and half an hour. 
Participation in debate? 
In the first debate cycle only Stef spoke, because it was only a speech in preparation to the
second debate cycle. In the second debate cycle I answered the three questions asked by the
jury. More than that I didn't do, except for saying some small sentences and questions to the
opposing team that I had made up during the debate. 
Jury: 
What? 
I made the first two questions for Team Antonia, and Stef the third one. After that I send the
questions to the whole team and to Mr. Myers, however this last one received the questions
a bit late. 
How much time? 
Making the questions took me about ten minutes. 
 
Stef: 
1st debate: 
What? 
I searched for topics and arguments we could use in our debate on equal payments.  
How much time: 
I worked the whole time every lesson, but sometimes had to do some work at home as well
if I couldn't finish what I was working on. 
Participation in debate: 
I've never been much of a talker nor speaker, and this is reflected in my behavior during the
debates. I like to gather information for others to use. I'm fully capable of setting up an
argument and talking about it or articulating it in the debate, but I'm not quick on my feet
with giving counter arguments on the spot. Therefore, I stayed in the background most of
the time and only introduced our counter arguments in the 2nd debate. 
2nd debate: 
What? 
I searched for topics and arguments we could use in our attacks on abortions. 
How much time: 
I worked the whole time every lesson, but sometimes had to do some work at home as well
if I couldn't finish what I was working on. 
Participation in debate: 
Like the 1st debate, I mostly searched for arguments that didn't get used during the actual
debate and only vernally gave an introduction at the start of our attacks on team Antonia's
statement. 
Jury: 
What: 
I wrote down things I found interesting that were said between the two teams and used
these to build my vote. At the end I couldn't decide however, both teams did equally as good
in my eyes. I also made one of the questions for team Antonia. 
How much time: 
I only worked during the lessons as a jury. 
Participation in debate: 
Choosing / voting for the winning team. 
 
Lieke: 
1st debate: 
What? 
I did the first part, the speech. I opened the first debate with our opinion. My other
classmates search for many sources to make this speech. 
How much time? 
To make the speech took me about 1 hour. And to prepare it 30 minutes. 
Participation in debate? 
As I told earlier, I did the first part. I also searched for arguments for Oliver to ‘throw’ at the
opposite team. 
2nd debate: 
What? 
I searched for arguments for Stef to say at the speech. I also searched for sources to use in
the rest of the debate. 
How much time? 
To search everything and to write it down I worked for 1,5 hours. 
Participation in debate? 
I didn’t speak in this debate because I looked up many things for the others to say. 
 
Jury: 
What? 
I wrote together with Neeltje the questions for team Sofie. I also took notes when the teams
were speaking. 
How much time? 
To make up questions with Neeltje took about 15 minutes 
 
 
Neeltje: 
1st debate: 
What? 
In the first debate I did a lot of research and looked for different strong arguments. I also
answered the questions that were given by the jury. 
How much time? 
To do all the research and look up arguments took me about 1 hour, at home. But I also did a
lot in the lessons. I also worked for 1 hour I think in class. And then I also had to answer the
questions and that took me 45 minutes, I think. 
Participation in debate? 
In the first debate I did quite a lot. I answered the questions from the jury, and I used some
arguments during the debate. 
2nd debate: 
What? 
I did mostly research in the second debate. 
How much time? 
I think that took me about an hour, because a had a lot of information and arguments. We
just didn’t use a lot. and I also worked for 45 minutes in class 
Participation in debate? 
I used some arguments in the second debate, but not as much as in the first. 
Jury: 
What? 
I made questions for team Sofie in the last debate together with Lieke. 
How much time? 
I think this took like 10 to 15 minutes, but we finished that already in the lesson 
 
Arguments and research: 
Stef: 
1st debate:  
In the first debate I researched information and arguments. I have made up an argument but didn't
use it. “Ms. Speaker, you mentioned positions as though it's not linked to jobs. We mentioned
women and men should be paid equally for the same job, so your argument using positions is
wrong. A job includes position. Work is different however, if we had said work, your
argument would be right, but we used job. Therefore, your arguments are wrong.” 
2nd debate:  
I've noted a few things we could include in our arguments in the 2nd debate: 
 What is murder? 
 Who suffers most? 
 Not the baby 
 Unprotected sex 
 Large % of sex is unprotected --> avoidable 
 Free condoms? 
 No argument against  
 None wants to have an abortion 
 Rape 
 Dangerous attack! 
 Stay away from it 
 Only accept under strict terms --> acceptable abortion 
 6 weeks is enough for a woman to realise they don't have their regular periods...
Meaning they're pregnant 
 Strengthen with rape: 
 Unacceptable 
 Punished by law 
 Better education --> not woman's choice --> Right for abortions  
 We don't allow women having MORE choices than rape to have an abortion. 
 Do laws to govern your own body extend to babies? 
Jury: 
I've noted down things said in the debate that I thought were important to note down. 
 
 
 
Oliver: 
 1st debate: Women don't negotiate their pay: counterargument: According to “The
Guardian” this is not true. Women do negotiate their pay as frequently as men, but they
are just less likely to get them. --> source: Bustle          Women leave their work to have
children: counterargument: According to a study done by "The Guardian" women are
penalized for having children. The "Telegraph" says women can earn up to a third less
than men when they return to work after childbirth, while men can earn up to 6% more
according to "Business Insider". --> source: Bustle          Men work harder:
counterargument: According to "Money" men put in more hours, don't take often of, and
don't leave temporarily to have children. However, these statements are inaccurate.
"New York Times" says it's women who do more at work, but they just get less paid for it.
--> source: Bustle           It depends in which places you work and in which country:
counterargument: It's not just a problem in some countries, but it's a global problem.
Women all over the world are being paid unequally in perspective of men. Studies that
are done for example by: Pew Research center, or AAUW and many more, simply prove
this, and it must change, everywhere in this unequal world. 
“The Conversation” says after their study in New Zealand: "...women are paid 16% less for
contributing of the same value to their employer..." --> this is on average. 
You said that women get paid less than men because they're less experienced/have less
contribution. Well, this study proves the contrary. According to "Statista" there were in the
U.S. 69.23 million women employed (1990-2020). There are many studies done, for example by the
"AAUW" or the Pew Research Center. The biggest part of these 69.23 million women got and are
getting paid less than men. You say that tens of millions of women (and now only speaking of the
U.S., not even of the whole world) have less experience than men. 
Research Oliver: 
Potential arguments of the other group: 
-Women don't negotiate their pay: counterargument: According to "The Guardian" this is
not true. Women do negotiate their pay as frequently as man, but they are just less likely to
get them. 
-Women leave the workforce to have children: counterargument: According to a study done
by "The Guardian" women are penalized for having children. According to the "Telegraph"
women can earn up to a third less than men when they return to work after childbirth, and
men can earn up to 6 % more according to "Business Insider". 
-Men just work “harder”, it's natural that they get more paid than women:
counterargument: According to "Money" men put in more ours, don't take often off and
don't leave temporarily to have children. However, these statements are inaccurate. "New
York Times" says it's women who do more at work, but they just get less paid for it. 
-It depends in places you work and in which country: counterargument: It's not just a
problem in some countries, but it's a global problem. Women all over the world are being
paid unequally in perspective of men. Studies that are done for example by: Pew Research
center, or AAUW and many more, simply prove this, and it must change, everywhere in this
unequal world. 
 2nd debate: You don't necessarily have to abort, you can also let adopt the baby after
its birth, giving it an opportunity to live and avoiding killing it. 
 
Research Stef: 
 Work and labour should be rewarded equally for the effort put into it,
regardless of gender, race etc. Not only is it unfair to be paid a different amount
for the same work as someone else of the opposite gender, it's also unfair as
everyone is equal. And therefore, the amount of effort and work should be the
deciding factor on your pay. Important jobs for a countries’ development should
be paid equally as well. 
 Counter arguments: 
 What's fundamentally wrong with the other groups’ statement?  
 --> They turned our arguments around by talking about different positions,
while we were talking about same jobs --> Meaning same positions. They were
talking about work as in place (supermarket and a hospital). But the job is also
about the position, so linking jobs with working place, but not with positions is
just not right. So, if we attack on that, we have a good chance of winning.
Positions and jobs are linked, so using them separately to counter us is a big
mistake. They are taking the easy way out. 
 So, a counter argument could be: 
 Work and labour should be rewarded equally for the effort put into it,
regardless of gender, race etc. Not only is it unfair to be paid a different amount
for the same work as someone else of the opposite gender, it's also unfair as
everyone is equal. And therefore, the amount of effort and work should be the
deciding factor on your pay. Important jobs for a countries’ development should
be paid equally as well. 
 Counter arguments: 
 What's fundamentally wrong with the other groups’ statement?  
 --> They turned our arguments around by talking about different positions,
while we were talking about same jobs --> Meaning same positions. They were
 talking about work as in place (supermarket and a hospital). But the job is also
about the position, so linking jobs with working place, but not with positions is
just not right. So, if we attack on that, we have a good chance of winning.
Positions and jobs are linked, so using them separately to counter us is a big
mistake. They are taking the easy way out. 
 So, a counter argument could be: 
 “Ms. Speaker, you mentioned positions as though it's not linked to jobs. We
mentioned women and men should be paid equally for the same job, so your
argument using 
 
 
 
Neeltje: 
               1st debate: - 
               2nd debate:  
 Murder is the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice
aforethought. This is stated from the legal dictionary. So, abortion is murder 
 There are risks of having an abortion for the mother.  
 People use the contraceptive methods wrong. 
 When an egg is fertilised, it contains the full genetic code of a human being.
That means that a baby is very much alive in the womb. It is a precious human
life inside the safety of the mother’s body. The mother gets blessed by having a
human life inside of the womb. However, women who get an abortion are taking
that safety away from the baby. in article 3 of the universal declaration of human
rights it states that everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person.
Meaning that when you get an abortion you take away the right of a human
being. You take away the security and the right to live. 
 
Lieke: 
1st debate: 
 When men and women do the same job and function, the man gets paid
more. But the deliver the same performance and give the same effort. So, it is
logical that this should be equal. 
 According to the law, women and men have the same rights, but women have
a different position than men. For example, when you see men doing the laundry
or doing the dishes, people think its weirder then when the woman does it. 
 It is 2021. Back in time, people made distinction between men and women.
But that is not from this time anymore. We must do something. 
It’s already happening for a long time: not equal payments between men and women. But
why is this happening? Men and women are equal right?  
 It’s true that in education for example, you will find more women than man.
And that is a low-paying sector. And you will find more -paying factors such as
science, technology, engineering, and mathematics 
 Especially in the past, women where more at home than at work, they had to
take care for the children. And they had to bring food home. And in that time, the
men were working at the office and making money. 
 For some reasons ‘women are less than men’. because many people think
men can do the work better. So, women get not paid equally for doing the same
job for the same amount of time. 
Recently there is more attention to the pay gap. More and more people are against it.
because they think men and women are equally, so they should be paid equally.  
 
2nd debate: 
 Many women think it is an easy thing, when you find out you are pregnant, you just
go to the hospital. But you are killing a new life and endanger a women’s body. That
people who has an abortion easily think the foetus is just a "thing." If they don't want to
have a baby, there are ways to avoid having a baby before pregnancy.  
 Abortion is dangerous for a woman's body. Abortion is not the easy way that people
think. It's possible that a woman can't have a baby anymore because it hurts the
woman's body. And it's possible that women die because of it. Many people don't know
the reality. It's because of the lack of education about abortion. The women who are
pregnant don't know what abortion does to their body. 
 The baby has the right to live, maybe it will live a better life than we do. You kill a
baby that can’t fight back. That’s not fair.  
Research Lieke: 
Abortion should be illegal because: 
 Many women think it is an easy thing, when you find out you are pregnant, you just
go to the hospital. But you are killing a new life and endanger a women’s body. That
people who has an abortion easily think the foetus is just a "thing." If they don't want to
have a baby, there are ways to avoid having a baby before pregnancy.  
 Abortion is dangerous for a woman's body. Abortion is not the easy way that people
think. It's possible that a woman can't have a baby anymore because it hurts the
woman's body. And it's possible that women die because of it. Many people don't know
the reality. It's because of the lack of education about abortion. The women who are
pregnant don't know what abortion does to their body. 
 The baby has the right to live, maybe it will live a better life than we do. You kill a
baby that can’t fight back. That’s not fair.  
How would you like if someone pulled you out of bed and duct taped your mouth shut, then
just cut off your head? I don’t think that you would like it very well, but they wouldn’t give
you a choice. 

Questions: 
Neeltje first debate:  
Questions jury 
Which law, from which country states that men and women are equal and does that law also state
that that includes them being paid equally?  
The universal declaration of human rights states that all people are equal without distinction of any
kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin,
property, birth, or other status. Article 23 in the same declaration states that Everyone, without any
discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work. 
Which people are fed up with what you call an outdated ideology that women and men are not
equal?  
Mostly the women are fed up with this ideology, because throughout history they have been
discriminated the most. This happens the most with women who are working in typical man jobs,
such as building constructor or truck driver.  
We’re wondering what your view is on the following: men have a career that spends 40-50 years,
women more often work part time or give up their career to care for their family, isn’t it fair, in that
perspective, that men get paid more? 
No, it isn't fair because it is not only about the number of years you work, but also about your skills
and education. 
 
What must change? 
Why does the other sex get more for doing the same job, it applies to both men and women? It is not
fair. Sometimes some people say, ‘life is not fair’ but that is something we can’t do anything about 
Women earn 82 cents for every dollar a man earns. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, in
2020, women's annual earnings were 82.3% of men's, and the gap is even wider for many women of
color.  
Research Neeltje: 
When an egg is fertilised, it contains the full genetic code of a human being. That means that a baby
is very much alive in the womb. It is a precious human life inside the safety of the mother’s body. The
mother gets blessed by having a human life inside of the womb. However, women who get an
abortion are taking that safety away from the baby. in article 3 of the universal declaration of human
rights it states that everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person. Meaning that when
you get an abortion you take away the right of a human being. You take away the security and the
right to live. 
 
Murder is the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought. This is
stated from the legal dictionary. 
 
There are also risks of having an abortion for the mother.  
 Injury to the uterine lining or cervix. 
 Infection. Bacteria can enter the uterus during the procedure and cause an infection.
Symptoms of fever, pain, and abdominal (belly) tenderness. 
 A hole in the wall of the uterus (uterine perforation). This most commonly happens
during cervical dilation.  
 Tissue remaining in the uterus. This usually causes recurring cramping belly pain and
bleeding within a week of the procedure. Sometimes prolonged bleeding does not
develop until several weeks later. 
 Blood clots. If the uterus doesn't contract to pass all the tissue, the cervical opening
can become blocked, preventing blood from leaving the uterus. The uterus becomes
enlarged and tender, often causing belly pain, cramping, and nausea. 
This is from the University of Michigan health.  
Accident: the world health organisation states that only 18 percent of the accidental pregnancies
uses the contraceptive methods exactly as they have been told to. This actively demonstrates that 82
percent of all the accidental pregnancies is caused by not using the methods correctly. So, for 82
percent of the accidental pregnancies, it is their own fault. Because they should have used the
contraceptive methods correctly. and with perfect use the change of getting pregnant is lowered by
70 percent. 
Unprotected sex: if you have unprotected sex, it is your own fault to be pregnant because you should
have used any form of contraceptive methods. 
Rape: We agree when a woman is raped, she is allowed to have an abortion, but only within 7 weeks.
That is enough time to realise that their period is not regular. They know that they have been raped
so they must realise that soon. And there is also an option for the morning after pill. If the women
don’t know that she has been raped because she has been drugged, you always know that something
has happened and that you are feeling different. however, that this happens is very rare. So, to sum
up everything that has been stated so far. A women should not be allowed to have an abortion
accept when she has been raped. however, she can only have an abortion within 7 weeks since this
has been proven to be enough time to know if you are pregnant. 
Money: making abortion safe and accessible for everyone is going to cost a lot of money. The law
requires that the personnel need health training as well as insuring equipment This will cost a lot of
money, 
 
  Oliver second debate: 
Questions Jury 
Would it be the women's fault if she's getting raped? 
No, it certainly wouldn't be the women's fault if she's getting raped. This is the only exception we
make. 
Why is aborting a six-week-old that big of a deal? 
We agree with a law from Texas. It's called the "Texas Heartbeat Act", an says that an abortion is
aloud if it's done before the age of the foetus reaches six weeks. Six weeks is plenty of time for a
woman to realize that she's pregnant. 
Where is the definition of murder to be found? 
When you type in Google: "definition of murder", you get two definitions: 
 One: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. 
 Two: A very difficult or unpleasant task or experience. 
So according to the law of Texas, an abortion after six weeks is murder. 
And this is the definition of murder from van Dale translated into English: 
 Murder: The premeditated stealing of another's life. 
 Murder: Killing people on purpose. 
 
Research Oliver: 
 We should look at the law, they will focus on it. We should break their emotional
arguments and only use factual arguments ourselves. (Or rights) 
 Dangerous to abort a baby! --> (Doctors say it!) 
 Taking away someone's right to live! --> (law rights) 
 --> We should be fast     
BREAK THEIR EMOTIONAL ARGUMENTS 
Sources that may be used: 
https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/overview-abortion-laws# 
https://www.google.com/search?
q=donald+trump+debate+about+abortion&rlz=1C1CHBD_nlNL951NL951&sxsrf=AOaemvJjds2WV4wa
SkkDzAqfE4ktna52LA:1634117757252&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQk8SDi8fzAhUQ
t6QKHXojBPEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=577&dpr=1.5 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/mother/for_1.shtml 
Introduction: 
Abortions. It's a big decision to make. You're basically killing someone if you choose to get one, but if
you don't, you'll have to raise a child. You might feel like you're too young. If you do have to make
the decision to have an abortion, you must have done something beforehand. Zeus didn't put that
life in there, right? What I'm saying is, to have that baby, you must have unprotected sex. If you do
feel like you're too young to have a baby, and therefore you choose to get an abortion, you basically
made a mistake having sex at an early age. It could've happened accidentally, of course, but was it so
accidental if you did have (unprotected) sex at such an early age?  
As soon as you get pregnant, there's life inside of you. By having that abortion, you basically kill it.
The baby will never know you did, it doesn't even know it exists yet. But still, you have chosen to kill
the baby, to end a life. Isn't that murder? 
An abortion also is a very dangerous operation. The woman the abortion is being performed on, is
very vulnerable. The area isn't protected against operations, so why take such risk only to kill an
unwanted baby? 
Arguments defence: 
What is murder? 
Who suffers most? 
Not the baby 
 
Unprotected sex 
  Large % of sex is unprotected --> avoidable 
 Free condoms? 
 No argument against  
 No one wants to have an abortion 
Rape 
 Dangerous attack! 
 Stay away from it 
 Only accept under strict terms --> acceptable abortion 
 6 weeks is enough for a woman to realise they don't have their regular periods...
Meaning they're pregnant 
Strengthen with rape: 
 Unacceptable 
 Punished by law 
 Better education --> not woman's choice --> Right for abortions  
 We don't allow women having MORE choices than rape to have an abortion. 
Do laws to govern your own body extend to babies? 
Nature taking its course --> Switching that life support machine off when you're tied to that person
donating blood, without your permission: of course, you can switch it off, of course you can LET
NATURE TAKE Its COURSE and let the man die. We also want to let nature takes its course. Rape of
course is NOT natural therefore it IS acceptable to have an abortion when you're raped. BUT it's not
allowed to have an abortion when the woman actively and consciously become pregnant. Then it's
natural and you can't have an abortion. 
 
Reflection: 
Lieke: 
 - What did I learn during this debating cycle? Explains how this can be used in the future. 
I learned that during a debate or just in expressing your opinion, you must speak confident
enough to people so they know what you are talking about.  
 - Could I/we do things differently during another debate? 
We could prepare more because we had a little shortage of information. And we can stand
quicker on out feet while defending.  
 - Has it changed the way you think about the topics that have been debated? 
No, because I still think men and women should be paid equally, and even though we were
against the fact of aborting, in real life I think people should decide themselves if they want
an abortion. 
 - How did your team perform? 
I think we did a good job even though we lost twice. I am very proud of we for speaking
confident in front of class  
Neeltje: 
What did I learn during this debating cycle? Explain how this can be used in the future. 
I learned to mention the sources in your arguments to make the arguments stronger. And
talk confident. 
Could I/we do things differently during another debate? 
We had to be quicker on our feet and stay on 1 topic, because we kind of went off the topic
during the debate about abortion. 
Has it changed the way you think about the topics that have been debated? 
No, not really because I had a strong opinion about the statements. 
How did your team perform? 
I think we did great however I still think we should have won with the first debate about
equal payments. But I did agree about the second debate about abortion. So even though
we lost twice I’m still proud. 
Pagina-einde 
Stef: 
 What did I learn during this debating cycle? Explain how this can be used in the future. 
 I learned more about the subjects we debated about, how to form strong arguments and
that I wouldn't enjoy being a politician. 
Could I/we do things differently during another debate? 
We could've gathered more information, prepared more counter arguments and be quicker
in coming up with good responses to the opposing team.  
 Has it changed the way you think about the topics that have been debated? 
No, I agreed to both subjects discussed till now. My opinion hasn't changed even if I had to
fight against it. 
How did your team perform? 
We did what we could defending our opinion and attacking the statement we were against.
If we had been a little more attentive to what the attacking team was saying, we would've
caught some things that we could've used for a winning argument.  
Oliver: 
What did I learn during this debating cycle? Explains how this can be used in the future. 
I learned that it is much harder and that there is much more pressure during a debate than I
thought before. I also learned how a debate is built up and what to do during a debate, like
when to attack, when to defend and how to support your team. 
Could I/we do things differently during another debate? 
We could prepare better, and I should relax a little bit more, I think. 
Has it changed the way you think about the topics that have been debated? 
No, although these debates made me think more about these topics, I didn't change from
point of view, I reinforced it. 
How did your team perform? 
I think we performed well, much better than I've been expecting. We lost both debates, but
that doesn't really bother me, because we did our best during the debate, although we
could've been better prepared. But at the first debate we didn't exactly know what and how
to do it during the debate, so we learned a lot.