Gary Miller

To my Muslim friends
‫السالم عليكم‬
To Christian friends “peace be with you”
They both mean the same thing as it happens
To everyone in general “welcome”
Mr Deedat spoke and of course some things that .. aa .. Christians probably don’t like to hear
Not necessarily because they are not true things .. I mean it is true that many of the pushups
of the church of England have said that Jesus is not diving .. that’s a fact they have said that
What is annoying to many Christians is to say “How could a man who calls himself a
Christian say that”
In any case .. I too will say something’s that will annoy people
Something’s that may be Muslims don’t want to hear
Something’s that may be Christians don’t want to hear
But ask yourself... Is it because it wasn’t true or why does it bother me... if you don’t like to
hear what I've said
As my friend have said... we just get into discussion, I met him for the first time I believe it
was only yesterday
We found that we did that one time lived within a few hundred miles of each other in
Canada for a period of about six or eight years, but unless I pumped into him on the street I
don’t remember of meeting him until yesterday
He said that he went from Catholicism into Islam, I went from Catholicism toward the
protestant churches
Now... I have to clarify though first... Don’t misunderstand where we are going
I didn’t come here to the invitation of the church … mister Deedat asked me to come here
Didn’t pay me to come here
Couple of days after I got here I asked him "who is paying for this trip"
He said "we can't afford it" …. All right that’s the end of that
So nobody paid me to come here
I am invited from time to time to speak in churches and sometimes I speak at mosques and
most often I simply speak in universities … in open forums
You see... A lot of churches like what I say and a lot of churches don’t like what I say
Recently I was speaking in Vancouver in the west coast of Canada
And when I finished my speech somebody came up and told me... How horrible it was, he
said as a Christian he was very offended by what he heard and he was very upset and
another man right behind him came up... And he was a minister in the united church of
Canada... That’s the largest denomination in Canada... He shook my hand... He said that
was beautiful... I want your name and address... I like what you said
So you see you can't ever paint all Christians with one brush
They come from one extreme to the other
Any two differences you can think of they will be people in between these two extremes
So please understand... some churches appreciate what I say... Some do not
To clarify some terminology... I was surprised to find this morning... I looked in the
newspaper talking about things going on in the city today and it said "Garry Miller is going
to be speaking ... an evangelist"
Well... For years in doing evangelical work with churches .. Preaching on the street corner or
in a church or anywhere that I went
People will tell me "that’s evangelism you are doing ... you are an evangelist"
And I used to tell them "I prefer you wouldn’t use that word"
Because as carefully as I looked through the bible I never found the word evangelist on the
lips of Jesus
I'm not saying it’s a bad word... you want to call yourself an evangelist be my guest
Me, prefer not to... Always prefer not to because I didn’t see Jesus use that word
It doesn’t mean it's wrong
I'm just trying to take only what I ever saw that he said
And he never used that word
I was surprised to hear yesterday that... there you go my friend here told me that you got a
phone call from somebody who want to know my credentials... by what authority and power
did I speak about Islam and Christianity
I was kind of surprised to hear that
The caller said he was a Christian
It's very unchristian thing to do
That’s what the Jews and the Romans and so on used to ask about the disciples of Jesus you
find in Acts chapter four among other places
When the disables were trying to preach … the Romans and the Jews would say "by what
authority do you preach, what school did you go to, you are just a fisherman, how do you
dare to speak"
Beside hope that’s not typical of most people, that they seem to think a Christian today has
to be like a Farsi, he has to go through the school and get a certificate and he is approved.
I can give you credentials like that if you want to but I will be ashamed to lower myself to
that level
Now... please understand... no matter what you think you hear me say... I am trying to help
the Christian missionary, Alright
Somebody told me a few minutes ago, you can’t help the Christian missionary if you stand
on the same platform with Ahmed Deedat
I am trying to help the Christian missionary, listen carefully
A lot of people don’t see it that way of course
Because a lot of people Muslims and Christians alike, they want to drink milk all their lives
See if you gave a baby milk and you keep giving him milk he will get bigger and bigger
But suppose you never gave him anything else but milk
After sometime he starts to get sick
There comes a time when he need meet and fruits and vegetables
Paul wrote that in one of his litters, it’s in the bible, he said lets go beyond the milk, he say
we want to get into the meat
See most of the Christian community and the Muslim community alike they want to come
and go to their meetings on a weekly bases and hear the same old thing over and over...
Don’t forget to pray, praise the lord, halleluiah and so on
They don’t want any meat, you see this is milk we all know this
We have to go beyond this sometimes
When I say I am trying to help the missionary ….. I am talking about this
I am saying to the missionary, you want to convert the Muslim to Christianity, but look what
you are doing instead
You say you are trying to convert the Muslim, you write books, you have speeches and so on
you want to convert Muslim
Instead of converting the a Muslim look what you are doing because of what you say
You see the missionary wants the Muslim to start thinking, so he asks him some questions,
he has discussions and so on
He plants little... Seeds
He wants the Muslim to start thinking
But the missionary does not tell the Muslim what to think, he just wants him to start
thinking
He doesn’t tell him what to think, because the missionary usually hasn’t thought about it
himself
Now that sounds serious, let me illustrate what I am getting at, by a few examples
The missionary says to the Muslim... Does the Quran say that Jesus was sinless?
The Muslim says yes, perfect man, never sinned
And the missionary says, does the Quran tell Muhammad to repent
And the Muslim says yes, it tells him to repent
And that’s all .. the missionary doesn’t say anything else
He hopes,, now the Muslim is going to start thinking ,, well now wait a minute (Jesus never
sinned but Muhammad was supposed to repent) may be Jesus is better
He is hoping.. But he doesn’t dare say that
Because if he says that.. if he says (do you know , a sinless man is better than a repentant
sinner)
If he dares to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of Jesus
If he is foolish enough to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of Jesus
My advice to Muslims if somebody asks you those questions (you ask him to tell you the
story of the prodigal son)
Everybody knows the story in the bible .. you say the story of the prodigal son
The young man who told his father give me the money that I will get when you die .. I want
it now
And the he ran away and he spent it on terrible things
Ask him to tell you that story and tell you what is the lesson of that story
Because the lesson of that story involves the complaint of the other brother in the family ..
the good son
When the evil son came back and repented the father welcomed him
And the good son complained , he said I’ve never done anything wrong
And look how you treat my brother who was so bad
And his father told him how wrong in attitude that was
He said your brother was dead now he is alive
You see the perfect man does not have any preference over the sinless man or the repentant
sinner .. in Christianity
Make the missionary tell you the story of the lost sheep
Jesus said Mathew chapter 18 verse 12 , it starts ..
Jesus said what do you think if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray
Does he not leave the 99 on the hills and go and search on the one that went astray
And if he finds it truly I say to you he rejoices over it more than over the 99 that never went
astray
Jesus was trying to hammer that point home to his decibels
Saying don’t you dare say because .. for example .. you’ve been a faithful follower for many
years that you are better than this one who became a believer yesterday
The perfect man has no precedence over the repentant sinner
In fact this whole argument would not exist if both Muslims and Christians were better
aware of the meaning of the word sin ,, but that’s another story we don’t have time for
To illustrate again
The missionary says to the Muslim was Jesus the messiah , and the Muslim says yes
And the missionary says,, was Muhammad the messiah
And the Muslim says no
There he stops again , hoping the Muslim will go away and think now wait a minute (Jesus
is messiah but Mohamed isn’t) ,, may be Jesus is better
Well .. what you want to ask the missionary is about this word messiah
Ask him .. Jesus was the messiah , but were there any other messiahs besides Jesus
Now you find out how well he knows his bible
Because there were many ,, David , Solomon even Sires the Persian were called messiah
It’s hard to find that in the bible because the translators covered it over , they translate the
word
Messiah means anointed,, somebody picked to do a job , somebody single out and say (you ..
are the one)
Every king of ancient Israel was called messiah
Now the name doesn’t look quite so special any more
It is a title, but it does not particularly elevate to some diving states
I am trying to show you that the arguments are not good enough that are being used and I
see in print all the time
The missionary asks the Muslim where is the body of Jesus
And the Muslim says god took it
And the missionary says where is the body of Muhammad
And the Muslim says, it’s in Madinah in the ground
The missionary stops hoping the Muslim will go away and think (now that’s interesting , the
body of Jesus is gone Muhammad is in the grave .. may be Jesus is the true messenger ,
Muhammad is false)
He is hoping you think that but he dare not say it
Because what you want to ask the missionary ,, is that what you mean to say
Do you mean that a dead and parried prophet is a false prophet, is that what you mean?
Make him finish it
Because if that what he means .. what does he say about Ibrahim for example
Or in Arabic to say (‫)إبراهيم‬
Jews and Muslims till now still go to the place where he is buried .. to visit his grave
Is he a false prophet because he is dead and in the ground
For that matter where is the body of Moses
The bible says god took it .. he sent an angel to take the body away .. what does it prove
What disturbs me most I guess , because even now we are seeing now finally a turnaround
in the Pentecostal churches where ….
For years the Pentecostal insisted ,, you are saved not by works but by your faith
Pentecostal church starting to finally to put the two together .. now it’s faith and work side
by side
What the missionary has always accused the Muslim of is to say “you people believe you are
saved by works alone”
And they quote the Quran in the 32 chapter of the Quran the nineteenth verse or ‫آية‬
It says if you excuse my terrible Arabic “ ‫أما الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات فلهم جنات المأوى نزالً بما كانوا‬
‫”يعملون‬
Which means “and for those who believe and do good works for them gardens are refuge
and entertainment for what they used to do”
They quote this verse saying “you see muslims believe they are saved by works alone”
Somehow the word is there and printed .. they don’t see it
It says ‫آمنو‬ .. ‫آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات‬ they believe ‫وعملوا الصالحات‬ and they do good works
They believe and they do good works, the two are together
See the arabic language the word only has to change a little pit and it becomes a different
part of speech
‫آمنوا‬ means they believe .. ‫إيمان‬ made from the same litters means what you believe, your
belief, your faith
What this verse is saying is you got to have faith and works, side by side, not one, not the
other, but both
Which is exactly what is found in the bible in the little book of James
Specially the second chapter of the little book of James
Now the protestant reformers at first didn’t like James very much
Marten Luther said it was an epistle of straw .. blow it away .. didn’t like it
In the second chapter of James he makes the point several times particularly in the 26 verse
he says to the Christian community..
“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
It’s not faith or works, its faith and works together
That’s what the Muslim believe, that’s what the book of James says
Don’t tell the Muslim he believes saved by works alone, he doesn’t believe it
And he only think you are foolish because you think that’s what it says in the Quran when
you quote it to him
So far my points are simply these, that discussions about the sinless Jesus or Jesus the
messiah or Jesus taken out to heaven or faith and works don’t prove anything, they are not
arguments that are going to lead somewhere
The complaint I have against Muslims is, sometimes you let your self be led around by the
nose
Think,.. don’t just say “well the man is an expert I don’t know”
Think,.. it’s not how much you know, it’s what you do with what you know, how much do
you use your head
Even the bible tells people “lets reason together”, god says “come let us reason together” in
the first chapter of Isaiah
Now .. it is true that the Quran is very critical of some Jews and Christians, not all .. some
Jews and Christians ,, the Quran is critical of them
In the third chapter of the Quran in the third surah , beginning about the 77th verse or ayah
It speaks of some among the Jews and Christians , it says “there is among the a group who
distort the book with their tongs, you would think it is part of the book but it is no part of
the book, and they say that is from god but it is not from god, it is they who tell a lie against
god and well they know it”
Now the Muslim is familiar with this scripture, from his book, it says “look.. some of the
Jews and Christians lie about the contents of their book, they distort it”
The Muslim has every reason to believe this is true, when he just looks at what’s offered in
literature, he goes into a book store that sells bibles, and he find out there is so many
different versions
And if he looked carefully he sees that.. . the newer bibles leave out some other words that
are in the older bibles .. and the newer bibles have some words that aren’t in the older bibles
.. something is going on that looks funny to him, and he thinks of this verse
Now of course someone is going to go away, many are probably going to go away and say
“did I stood here and I insulted bible translators, because it’s the translators of the bible that
do that”,,, I’m not
I’ll be happy to insult a few, because they do this kind of thing they are guilty of
manipulation
But just as Jesus used to talk to a crowd of people, he told them what he wanted to tell them
and every so often he see someone in the audience a faracy or somebody that was
misleading the people and he point him out, say “that one is a liar”

He was not diplomatic, that’s why he got into so much trouble from place to place
Because when he saw a liar he pointed him out as such,,, I’m not going to do that but I’m
just showing you, if you speak harshly at someone you are only following the example of
Christ
He found that there was a time and place to single out the people who led others into
unbelief
You see some translators of the bible are honest
And they fight with their contemporary over the proper translation, to say you’ve changed
that, it should be this. They fight about it
Two of them for example are Goodspeed and makhphet , who’s bibles are printed under
their own name because no church would pack them up
They were too honest
As I said the Quran is critical of some Jews and Christians
It says in the third Surah that the Quran is (‫ )فرقان‬in Arabic it means criterion
It explains in the third verse that the Quran is supposed to be used as the basis of judging
which is true and which is false in their scriptures
It says in the fifth Surah that the Quran reveals much of what the Jews and Christians used
to hide
Now of course the Jew and the Christian doesn’t like to hear that
But they do quote some of the Quran back to the Muslim
But they do it badly is what I am trying to tell you
They quote it back badly in this way, they try to make it serve their purpose
There is no escaping… the Quran says the Jews and Christians they hide things they change
things and so on
So there is no sense in trying to find a verse somewhere to prove that “No .. no the Quran
says that everything in the bible is true”, but that’s what people do
In the fifth chapter of the Quran they quote a verse… again if you excuse my Arabic
Which says “‫”وأنزلنا إليك الكتاب بالحق مصدقا ً لما بين يديه من الكتاب‬
They quote this and it says.. the translation is .. speaking of the Quran that it is sent down to
the prophet it says “and we sent down to you the book in truth confirming that which they
possessed of the book before”
And you see the Christian says .. you see there, the Quran says the bible is true
It says the Quran was sent down to confirm .. to say its truthful what they have in their book
That’s what this sentence says if you stop there, but that’s the middle of the sentence.. there
is two more words in the sentence
They are “‫”ومهيمنا ً عليه‬
You see the whole text says “we have sent down the book in truth confirming that which
they had of the book before this …. And as a watcher over it (their book)”
+ً‫مهيمنا‬ is the Arabic word, +ً‫مهيمنا‬ is an interesting word, it means quality control
You’d use a form of that word to designate the man in a factory who stands at the end of the
assembly line and find the rejects and throws them out
The whole text .. that whole verse from the Quran says “The Quran confirms that which is
truthful in their book and .. It’s the quality control agent .. It’s the thing that shows you
which parts are not true”
You don’t fool a Muslim by quoting that. If he goes and he looks it up himself and realizes
you only red half the sentence
It’s a dishonest quote
Now of course .. some missionaries respond with great pain on their faces and say to the
Muslim when the Muslim says “you have changed your scriptures ,, he says (oooooh how
can you say that,, how could you as a Muslim change the Quran,, you couldn’t do that,, how
could I change the bible”
Well, the answer is very easy .. very easy .. the bible is not the same thing as the Quran,, for
at least three reasons
The Quran has always been in the hands of the people .. always .. from the time of the
prophet people wrote it down if they can write and memorized it and so on and so on,,
always been in the hands of the people
Nobody ever disagreed on what were the contents
The prophet died his friends met,, and they agreed by gathering all writings they had and
said this is the Quran and no body disputed it,, nobody said no you left something out,, no
this doesn’t belong,, nobody argued .. from the beginning
The bible doesn’t have that history,, the bible has been the property of the church not the
people
The first table of contents to the bible that reads the same as the contents to the bible now
dates from the year 367,, more than 300 years after Jesus,, finally they decided which books
belong in the bible,, that’s point one
Point two,, the bible is in dead languages .. the Quran is in a living language
A 120,000,000 speak Arabic, the language of the Quran
The bible is written in ancient Hebrew, ancient Aramaic, and ancient Greek which nobody
speaks
A handful scholar know it
So that to change it,,, is an easy thing if you are a translator,, to read one thing and tell
somebody something else,, that’s easy
Third point, there has never been so much as a letter in dispute about the Quran, no one has
even so much has said “this letter is wrong in your copy of the Quran” unless it’s a misprint
But nobody ever dispute,, it should be this,, it should be that, and they have a battle over it
Where the bible has come down from many many manuscripts
Any bible that’s worth buying is filled with footnotes,, almost every page will have a
footnote,, so you’d read the verse “footnote” read down here it says “or this verse might be..”
and he gives you an alternate translation or what other manuscript says
So when somebody says …, I mean it’s a shallow argument if somebody says “look Muslims
can’t change the Quran, how could Christians change the bible”,,,, it’s because they are two
different kinds of thing
To doubt the authenticity of the bible is not a Muslim idea,, it’s not Muslims who became
the enemies of the bible somehow, they are not enemies of the bible
The doubtful authenticity of the bible is an old idea found within the bible
It’s a biblical idea,, see if you ask the question “Who wrote the bible, I mean who took the
ink and the pen and put the words on the page,, who did that”
The answer “the scribes”,, that was their job in ancient time “the scribes” it mean they wrote
the scriptures
Well, in Jeremiah chapter 8 and verse 8 it talks about the scribes
Now some Jews will tell you that Jeremiah is the only authentic book left in the whole bible
I don’t believe that myself, but that’s how sure they are about Jeremiah
The most authentic book in the bible, they say
Jeremiah chapter 8 verse 8,, it says “how can you say, we are wise and the low of the lord is
with us, but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie”
See in this place god is telling you “don’t be so sure that everything you have in your hands
is scripture,, the scribes right lies with their pen,, watch out”
Where are these lies if everything in the bible is legitimate
So what I’m trying to get at is that the Muslim agrees with most churches
Most churches say “yes, the bible contains the words of god and some other words besides
that” the Muslim agrees
The bible contains the words of god and some other words
It’s only a minority Christian position who will say “every word in the bible came from god,
none of it came from man” that’s a minority view, but it seems be the view the missionary
feels he has to sell even if he doesn’t believe himself
There is many ways of establishing that fact, but a basic point is made in Isaiah chapter 40
verse 8
This is a verse that some people like so much, the bible I have there is a new American
standard, they put it on the inside front cover, they like this verse so much, Isaiah 40 and 8
It says, “The grass withers and the flower fails, but the word of our god stands forever”
It’s saying if it’s the word of god it doesn’t get lost, it stands forever, god says it, it will always
be there… according to this verse
But the church that would say “the bible is totally without error”. Will always modify that
By saying, they believe the bible to be inerrant, that its without error, inerrant .. in the
original manuscript, not the manuscript we have today, in the original
So that if you show someone, look .. this disagrees with that, or this is incorrect and so on,
he can tell you “that’s true that’s a mistake, but that mistake was not in the original”
Ask him “how did the mistake get here” .. he will tell you “the original got lost”
Well then the original was not the word of god if it got lost, was it?
Isaiah 40 and 8 says, if god says it, it doesn’t get lost
The verse doesn’t say “the grass withers .. the flower fails, but the word of our god stands
forever except for a few little details”
There is no qualification
And books have been written documenting the errors, and yet this excuse is still offered
You see if the missionary would only make this concession, if he would only say “all right,
not all the bible came from god” he be more believable
I have a Muslim friend of mine in Toronto, who was besieged by a missionary group there,
the fellowship of faith, who was whole goal in life is to convert Muslims
Surrounded by them constantly, get him all kinds of literature in that
Then finally he told me .. he said “you know the miracle of this book (he meant the bible he
said) is that people believe it came from god” .. you see that’s the miracle
Because in the one hand people are trying to tell him it’s perfect and in the other hand they
will tell you “well, accept here it’s not perfect” and so on, but that’s because it got lost and so
on…. It’s an excuse that’s inconsistent with the claim
If the missionary would say “not everything that we call scriptures should be called
scripture”, if he would only say that, he would be more believable
Now as I said, I know some of that probably is upsetting to some people, if it’s upsetting ask
yourself why, did I make a mistake, did I say something that not true, if so .. what is it?
My own personal experience , is not particularly exciting or anything, but may be they
illustrate a course of events
But you might find interesting
You see when I was in high school, taught in high school by Franciscan later at university by
Jesuits
I got the highest grades they ever had in religion, used to rate A+++ across the front of the
page
Great grades, the teacher said “never had a student like this”, it’s terrific grades in religion
But it occurred to me one day after 2 or 3 years of this,, somehow it registered on my mind
(the reason the grades are high, is because I remember everything the man said)
When it comes time for an exam, I can write everything I heard him saying, and give it
back.. so I get a perfect mark
That doesn’t mean it’s true, that was my frustration
When I talk about my teacher saying “I can tell you all of this, I know the whole explanation,
what is the proof”
You see we have to always decide when somebody is having a conversation with us, are they
explaining it or are they proving it?
People usually fool themselves, the explain it, they think they are proving it
If you ask somebody “how do you know Jesus died for your sins what’s the proof” he starts
to tell you “well god is holly man is a sinner Jesus has to die and so on” that’s not the proof,
that’s an explanation, that’s haw it’s supposed to work, I know that
How do you know it happened you see, .. it’s the proof you want
In the catholic church I couldn’t find that
That proof,, because they tend to look to authorities other than the scripture (the bible)
Don’t be confused.. if there is one thing I wish I can hammer into everybody’s head it’s this
idea (explanation is not the same as proof)
I asked a man the last time I was in Australia … same thing I said “how do you know man
has to have his sins redeem”
And he said “well god is 100% holly,, 100% holly,, you are a sinner,, god cannot deal with
you directly because he is 100% holly .. you are certain percentage sinner”
It’s an explanation ,, It’s an explanation but is it true
You see think about it, if I told you that in New York City is the holiest man that ever lived
I can talk about him for an hour may be, and build up a great reputation, I say “he is the
holiest human being that ever lived”
Finally may be you’d say, “well I’m going to save my money, I want to go to New York City
and meet him, I want to shake his hand”
And I tell you “No no no, he won’t even let you come in the same room with him, he is too
holly, you can talk to his secretary, but he couldn’t stand to look at you, he is too holly”
Now what do you think of this man?, is he holly or is he crazy?
You see an explanation is an explanation, it may or may not be true, it’s proof for something
else
What I wanted was proof “did Jesus say so”
I can end with discussion with a man who used to have a radio program on the bible
And so I asked him if could prove to me some of the things he believed
He said “I don’t have a bible” I said I “have one here”
I put a bible which is called a red letter edition, the put all of the words of Jesus in red ink
And I’d asked him “do you believe such and such” and he’d say “certainly, here is the proof”
and he’d open up the bible and he greed me something from the black ink
And I kept saying “No, show me in the red ink, did Jesus that thing, I know Paul said it and
this and that and the other thing … did Jesus say that thing you tell me you believe
Well he kept stoking my bible like it was a pet cat .. he was very fond of it
But I kept pushing that way and pushing .. I kept saying “did Jesus say it”
Suddenly he didn’t like the bible any more, and he threw it back in my face
He said “you know what your problem is, you won’t believe it unless Jesus said it”
Yes that’s my problem .. it should be his problem
How does he dares to teach something and call himself a Christian if he can’t show you that
Jesus said this thing he is talking about
It should be easy to find, if Jesus said some of the things people say he said,… should be easy
to find
You know if you took all the words of Jesus reported in the bible, and eliminate the
duplications, because you have the same story basically told 4 times
If you eliminate the duplications, the total of all the words of Jesus do not even fill two
columns of a newspaper
It’s not very many words
So if he said these different things you don’t really have a lot of work to look down and find
them
So as I say among protestant churches I have been involved with the Church of England the
Presbyterians Pentecostals Baptist Jehovah Witnesses Christadelphians you name them,
you probably you can’t name one I haven’t heard of, unless it’s something local here
To be involved with them for nine years
I read their books and visited to part of their meetings, used to teach some of their bible
classes
I kept coming back to this “what proof do you offer, what proof”
So they bring out a hand full of their favorite verses (John 3:16, 8:58, 10:30, 14:9, 20:28)
and so on
But for every one of those verses there is another verse which should be putted right beside
that verse
You find out what they were trying to say won’t work
(Hebrew 11:17, Exodus chapter 3, John chapter 17, John chapter 5 and Exodus chapter 6) to
go in the order of the verses I named you there
You put those beside those verses and the argument dissolves among others
It don’t prove the divinity of Jesus, .. doesn’t mean he is not diving, but these things don’t do
the job
That’s the problem, I’m not saying he is not diving, I’m saying “I still want to see the proof,..
did he say so”
Then the real test of sincerity was what disappointed me You see you can take one of these
verses somebody shows you, (John 14:9) for example Jesus said to Philip “if you’ve seen me
you’ve seen the father”
So I asked them “how is it he said in this other place to a group of people (you people have
never seen the father), don’t tell me in this place he means he is god, when in this place he
told some people who were looking at him (you have never seen god) he must mean
something else”
You tell somebody that and he will say “okay, you have a point, what about this verse” and
he go to another verse,.. Its fine
But next week somebody would come to that same man and say “where is the proof that
Jesus said he was god”, he will read John 14:9 right back where he started from, a verse
which a week ago he told me wasn’t good enough
It will be good for somebody else because he hopes he does not know the response I had
Beginning about 1969 … the same story I seem to get when I go from church to church and
ask them “you know if you took all the words of Jesus and you cut them out of the bible with
a seizers and then I gave you some paste and told you (put them back together any way you
like … take all these words, put them back together,,, paste them together how you like) you
still can’t make him spell out the trinity”
He still doesn’t say anything about it .. no matter how you change his words
So they tell me “it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The trinity is an evolved understanding, the
church didn’t understand this deep thought at first, they understanding evolved, with the
centuries it was discussed, people came to understand it and believe it”
Fine,, but if that what you say, you shouldn’t say in the other hand “Jesus used to preach it”
If you tell me people didn’t figure it out for 200 years don’t tell me “Jesus preached it”
And So they would say “no no, he preached it, but it is not in the bible, he used to preach it
to his decibels, he told them about it”
Well in the eighteenth chapter of John Jesus says very clearly “I taught nothing in secrete”
said, everything I had to say I said in the market place
He didn’t tell his decibels any secrets
More solutions are offered to me
People told me your problem you are not spiritual enough, believe then it’s easy, believe
But you see, a person can’t make themselves believe if they know better
What sometimes happens to human beings, they get a pain so their head is hurting
They go to a doctor they tell him I got this pain it won’t go away
The doctor make some tests, a full examination, maybe some x-ray and he finds that there is
nothing wrong
So he realizes the man’s problem is mental, It’s an imaginary pain
He doesn’t tell the man that, he gives him a placebo, they are things that look like bills but
they are only milk sugar
Just sugar
He goes to his patient and he says, “We have made some tests, this is the medicine you need,
take these bills and in one day your pain should stop”
It almost always does
Because the man thinks he is getting some medicine, and so his mental abilities get rid of
the pain, that’s a placebo
It works that way
I can’t do the same thing with belief though, I can’t manufacture it
You see if the doctor came to me and he said “you know your problem is mental, I have
some sugar bills here
Believe that these are medicine with all your hart, Believe they are medicine, try very hard,
and when you believe that they are medicine the pain will go away, .. I can’t do it
You told me they are sugar, I know better
So in the same way, it’s not satisfactory when somebody comes and he says “believe believe
believe”, how can you believe if you know better
Faith overcomes people told me, Faith overcomes
You must be born again,… in that I took a real interest in, “you must be born again”
I want to know how does this work,… where is the proof in the scripture
They brought me Romans Chapter 8
And it’s very interesting, Romans chapter 8 Paul says “if you are porn again what happens
is, the spirit of god comes into you and it tells you that god is now your father, and so you
cry out “appah” father”
So this is how it’s supposed to work, it’s fascinating, I gave that a lot of thought
When I got to thinking about this word “appah” it’s unusual, means father in Aramaic
So I looked up the word “appah”, where else is it in the bible
Well, there is only one other place that Paul talks about “appah”, I will let you find it for
your self
One other place he talks about appah
And in this place he also talks about how it is that this thing works
He says “the spirit of god comes within you, you become a child of god, you call out to god ..
appah .. father, now god is your father
And he goes on to say “now you have a new mother … also”, a new mother, god is your
father and you have a mother
Since 1969 till now, 15 years I have yet to meet someone who is born again and ask him
“who is your father?” they say “God”, I say “who is your mother?” they don’t know
Why not, it’s in the bible
It says you have a new mother if you are born again
Why did the spirit of god when it came within you forget to tell you who was your mother?
It’s there, I will let you find it, it’s there
It’s important
You see in Islam if you call a man a liar, you better have proof or you are the one that’s in
trouble
If somebody over there calls me a liar, he better have proof you see. Unless you are not a
Muslim. If other relisions permits you to call that name without proof, that’s their business
Now .. as I say for many years I went directly priests and ministers from about 1969 till 77
they are about, and round and round we go, I don’t want to bore you with a lot of the
conversations but ..,.
They go around in tiny little circles and it’s disappointing
People ask me to say “who is the father of Jesus?” I say “he didn’t have a father” and they
say “well then you see, Marry is the mother .. God is the father”
So I would ask “you mean Marry is the wife of God?” “NOOO” they are horrified “NOO No
No no, God is the father Marry is the mother”
And I would ask them “his parents weren’t married though” “Noooo, god doesn’t take a
wife”
So we go on to something else
And they say “but Jesus called God father” and I always ask people who tell me that, I say
“what do you call God”, probably it’s father
People who say that they pray “our father”
“But he called himself son of God” they say, .. and I tell him “yes and he called lots of other
people son of God, he said (pleased are the peace makers they shall be called sons of God)”
I became very frustrated on the crucifixion,. I believe that the crucifixion happened, I don’t
know why?
I asked so many people, I say “why did God have to become a man and die?, if a price has to
be paid for our sins, why can’t we just go and find a sinless and execute him and say there
the price is paid?”
To which people always said “no, if a man dies it’s no enough,.. it has to be someone who
was God and man”
And so I would always asked them “you mean God died?”
They say “No no no no, only the man died”, back where we started from, a man dies it isn’t
good enough
See that’s not a Noble idea in my part, the church is still discussing that till this day, they
still not sure who died on the cross
Was it god .. was it man .. or was it the god man or what was the deal
Because it cann … God doesn’t die because that means changing from one state to another
and god doesn’t change from one state to another he is supposed to be immutable and so on
They still discussing that
Jesus pay the price for your sins … pay the price .. I could never understand that
In the lord’s prayer Jesus taught his decibels how to pray, he said “pray like this”, and one of
these lines he told them he said “pray to God say (forgive us our sins as we forgive those who
sinned against us)”
More modern translations say “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”
How do you for give someone who owes you a debt
Do you say “you know that money you owe me, forget it, now give me the money”
If you forgive it, there is no price, nothing is paid, you see it’s forgiven
So the lord’s prayer says “forgive us our sins the same way we forgive someone who sinned
against us”
If someone slaps you and you forgive him, that’s the end of that
But you don’t say “I forgive you for slapping me, now come here I want to slap you” you see
You don’t do that
About what would be 500 years ago, there was a Jew in Europe, “Spinoza” was his name
“Baruch Spinoza”
A philosopher and he wrote a great deal, and he made the same point that people were
making 500 years before him
He was frustrated when a Christian would come to him and say “God became man”, he
would say “what do you mean?... god became man, .. see I know what is God and I know
what is man, and I can imagine that what was God turn into a man, he is not God anymore ..
used to be God, now he is a man, I can understand that at least it make some sense”
But that’s not what the church teaches, they say “God became man but he was still God”
And that causes a problem, you see if I have a ball of clay and I squeeze it and I put corners
on it and I make it into a cube, I can tell you “you see the ball became a cube”, but I can’t tell
you “don’t be fooled it’s still round”
See if it was one thing and it became another thing, .. it’s not that thing any more
They solve that by putting a label on it, they call it “dyophysitism”, it doesn’t prove any thing
Means two natures, dyophysitism
That’s an old trick, when you don’t know the answer put a label on it
In ancient Greece the Greeks, 25 centuries ago came to their scientists with a question
The had observed that “you eat food, it goes through the system and some of it comes out”
They wanted to know “which part of what I take in is the part that feeds me, because
evidentially I don’t need all of it”, you see
The want to know “which is the nutritive faculty of the food”
And the scientists didn’t know, so they said “the part that feeds you is the nutritive faculty of
the food”
It’s like saying “the part that feeds you is the part that feeds you” that’s all, it’s a label, it
doesn’t answer anything
As I say I can talk to you for hours about experiences
About 1977 I decided to have a look at the Quran, I never met a Muslim, I lived a 100
kilometers from the nearest Muslim
See what interested me was what non-Muslims said about Mohamed
There are books and books written about Mohamed that tell you “one thing we know for
sure about this man (he had an outside source of information)”
One book I have got says the Quran was written by a committee
Because it has established so well, there is information in there that an Arabian shouldn’t
have known, he must have had someone from the outside bringing him this information
So you see (one thing we know for sure, he had an outside source of information)
Now he said this book was a revelation, so they say “you see he was a liar .. he got it from
somewhere he put it in a book and he gave it to someone telling him it was from God, he was
a liar”
Other people .. write books and books on the subject of Mohamed and they say “one thing
we know for sure, he thought he was a prophet, .. he was crazy”
Because they look at his life very carefully and they sea episodes like for example when he
hid in the cave with Abo-Baker, he was running from the whole city who wanted to kill him,
and he hid in the cave, and when the Makkans came running up to the cave to kill them ..
What did he say to his friend?, did he tell him “see if you can find a back way out of the
cave?”
What he told his friend was “relax” he was telling him “you know I see what you see” but he
said “God is with us, God will save us”
So people on that basis they say “you see he thought he was a prophet, he thought God was
with me, because he said things like that, he wasn’t a liar”
They never seem to realize that one man can’t be both … you can’t be a liar and a crazy man
at the same time
If you think that an angel gives the words of God in your ear, and somebody says “I have a
question for you, what does God tell you about this thing, I want to hear an answer
tomorrow”
If you are a crazy man, if you think an angel whispers in your ear … then you don’t set up
this night thinking (what will I tell him tomorrow, what can I find, who knows the answer)
You are crazy, you think the angel will tell you the answer, you don’t go and look it up
somewhere
You see you can’t be a liar and a crazy man at the same time
You can be one or the other or neither … but you can’t be both
You see I read two non-Muslim biographies of Mohamed
One was by Rodin who was an atheist, who hated the man
But many interesting things come out about his life that I had to wonder about
One story that’s told is that …. When he was an older man, he had a son named ‫إبراهيم‬ or
Ibrahim
The son died when the child was two years old, the same day the boy died there was an
eclipse of the sun … the sky went dark
And the Muslims came running to their prophet and said “look, it’s a miracle, your child
died and the sky went dark in sadness”
It occurred to me … you see if he was a crazy man he probably believe what they said, he
would probably think “Yes it’s a miracle, my child died the sky went dark, yes it’s a miracle”,
if he was a crazy man
If he was a liar .. he would have taken advantage of it, he would have said “yes right, my
child died .. the sky is dark, you tell everyone it proves I am a prophet”
But what did he do? .. he became angry with the Muslims
He told them that was nonsense, he was angry with them .. “how dare you say that”
He said “the sun and the moon are signs of God and they don’t worry themselves about the
birth of a man or the death of the son of Mohamed”
It doesn’t look very crazy, it doesn’t look much like a liar
Now you have a third alternative of course which people tell you all the time
They say “no, he was not a liar, he was not a crazy man, he was deceived by the devil”,
deceived by the devil
It’s an interesting idea … but whatever you say, you better be ready to back it up
It is a lot of difficulties with that idea
For example there is a verse in the Quran which tells the reader about a good habit to
develop
It tells him “before you read this book always say (‫ ”)أعوذ باهلل من الشيطان الرجيم‬which means I
take refuge in god from Satan the rejected
Is this Satan who said this, … who said (before you read my book ask God to save you from
me) Is that Satan who wrote that?
As Jesus said “if Satan is divided against himself then his kingdom will fall”, he is fighting
against his own interest
So let me finish with a point that … a story that illustrate a point
As I said, there is many theories and explanations around ... Many explanations
But an explanation … something somebody tells you … is just so much air coming out of his
mouth unless he has proof
And unless he offers you something that you can use to falsify it
You see there is many theories of how do the planets go around the sun and how do the stars
burn and all the rest of it, … many theories
Most of them are so much wind … scientists pay no attention to them, because they don’t
contain something that could be checked to prove it’s false
You see Intestine was considered an intelligent man because when he offered his theory in
1905 and again in 1915, he didn’t just offer a theory; he said “here is three ways to prove I’m
wrong”
Now it’s worth listening to him, he has told me “here is three different things you can do, if
you can do this, I am wrong, here you are”
Is there anything like that in Christianity, has the Christian ever said, “You want to prove I
am wrong all you have to do is this” has he ever done that
The Quran is filled with that kind of things, filled with it
It say you want to prove that book is wrong; do this, prove it, go ahead, do it, filled with that
kind of thing
This is an example of it that made a big impression in its day, during the lifetime 14
centuries before of the prophet of Islam
You see, he had an uncle named Abo-Lahab, this was his nickname “Abo-Lahab”
This man hated Mohamed, he hated anything the man said
He used to watch him going through the city, and if he saw him talking to someone, he
waited till they split up, he go after the man he spoke to, and take him to say “what did
Mohamed tell you,… whatever it is, it’s a lie, did he tell you day, it’s night, did he say black,
it’s white” exact opposite, whatever he heard the Muslim say he say the opposite
That was the way his mind worked
There is a little chapter of the Quran called “Abo-Lahab”, and it says about this man that he
will never change
It condemned him to hell “Jahinnam”
You see if the man had ever become a Muslim, the Muslims would believe (well now he is
not condemned any more)
You see for 10 years before Abo-Lahab died that was a part of the Quran
And the Muslims could come to Abo-Lahab and say “do you know it has been revealed to us
in your … in our book that you will never be a Muslim. God says you will never be a Muslim”
For 10 years they told him that
All he had to do is say “well your book is wrong, I want to be a Muslim, what do you think of
your book now”
That’s all he had to do
He had 10 years to think about it, and that’s the way he was
See if somebody is your enemy, you don’t come to him and say “you want to prove I am
wrong here say this, come on say it, if … all you have to do is say the words and I am wrong,
you finish me”, He never did it
See this is one of many cases of something that was offered that could have been falsifiable
And so it was
As I say in 1978, after … how long would that be 15 years of arguing with the church
authorities, one place or another I got the idea (I am going to argue with some other people,
I am going to read the Quran, see how much of it is any good, pick out the true, pick out the
false)
Thought it will take a few years, it will take some serious study and so on
I read through it, about three days later I finished it, and said “this is what I’ve been saying
for 15 years”
So I went to find some Muslims
I don’t want someone to feel you have been tricked into something
I haven’t said anything about Christianity that isn’t true, I haven’t say anything about Islam
that isn’t true unless it was a slip of a tong or something
I am simply trying to remind an individual (don’t close your mind before it’s too late, don’t
make up your mind before you have all the facts)
Most people who used to be Christians and become Muslims will tell you “I am a better
Christian than I used to be, now I follow Christ, I didn’t before”
That’s what I will tell you
The bible says Jesus taught his disciples “when you greet one another, let your greeting be
(peace be with you)” he said the example (peace be with you), who says that today
Christians ?,… once in a great while may be
Muslims ?, … whether they speak Arabic or not they say (‫)السالم عليكم‬, peace be with you
Jesus when he prayed in the garden of Gethsemani put his forehead on the ground, who
prays like that? Christians or Muslims?
Jesus used to fast for more than a month at a time, who fasts today? Christians or Muslims?
Who really is trying to imitate Jesus?
Somebody said to me before coming in here, he said aaaah … “the Muslims make Jesus out
… they insult him and so on and so on”
How possibly did they insult him? … they left him up … up
They can’t tolerate anything bad said about him
They would just as quickly tell you that you know the … the … they say “‫”محمد رسول هللا‬, means
Mohamed is the messenger of God, they will just as quickly say “(‫ )عيسى‬Jesus (‫”)عيسى رسول هللا‬
no problem
Just as quickly tell you that, because it’s true
There … occupy the same place, … if God himself want to make distinctions among his
prophets that’s his business not ours’
You treat them all with the same amount of respect
May God guide us always closer to the truth
Q1: Ladies and gentlemen … we are gathered here today in the name of god, and this gather
ship truly make us understand what god is
For most of all .. what I like to ask this people here (what teaching us … a very simple
question … that we may understand what god wants us to do)
Ok do you … ? … can I speak to you?
G: you asked me (how do we know what god wants us to do?) … is that what the question
was?
Q1: that’s it … by theology … the word theology means (god’s relation with man and the
universe)
Why did god made man and the universe? What is the answer to this question?
G: that’s … ok you are finished now … theology is an invented word which just means (the
study of god) and it’s not a science like biology is, so that you want to know something about
biology you go and get a book about biology and you grant that what you read is true
Theology … anybody who wants to write about god can write about god so you can’t go and
pick up a book about theology and say everything in it must be true, it’s like biology, it’s not
a science like that
It’s filled with everybody’s opinion, so people’s opinions have to be sorted out according to
(how much their worth)
Now the human mind will reach to a certain point, get some points correct and some points
false. But a careful man is supposed to be able to choose (this is the true – this is the false)
(this make sense – this is nonsense)
Ok? … so for a start you get your own mind … what you can figure out for yourself and what
you can judge from what other people have told you … you take input and so on … to come
to the final detail of it you need a revelation from god because …
The human mind is different from anything else you find in creation
You find little insects they need something to eat, sure enough there is something provided
for them
Bigger animals they need food, there is something else they eat … the plants have something
to eat
Everything is provided all the way up to scale
You get to the human being,… things are provided for him, there is a place to eat, a place to
sleep and so on
But he has got something nothing else has, a mind that ask questions
So it’s only reasonable to believe that if something is provided for all of this other needs, he
has a need to know, something must be provided
He should look around somewhere he should find the provision … that answers his
questions
That is the nature of revelation
Now of course there is lots of books that say "this is a revelation" … they make that claim
But again … you have to judge the authority … this book says it's from God … read on … does
it sound like God or not … OK
Q1:You are not atheist 
G:What's that now?
Q1:You are not atheist 
G:We are not atheist … aaaaah
Q1:God has given us the guidance
G:Yes I agree, God has given us the guidance
Q1:where is the guidance please
G:I just told you … you are going to find it in some book somewhere that says this is a
revelation from God
Q1:OK
G:you … you figure it out as you go along which one's are worth the title, which one deserve
to be called a revelation and which one's don’t … that's up to you to figure out in your head
Q1:OK … let me ask one more question, the book … if it is the bible
CH: thank you Mr. Miller … are there any other questions ladies and gentlemen?,
unfortunately we don't have time accommodate more than one question from one person,
are there any other questions please
Well you please take your seat sir?
Q2: My question is very brief; I would like to ask Mr. Deedat. From the Quran … from the
Bible I can give him at least 25 predictions made by different prophets over a long period …
over 1600 years apart
And they were all fulfilled in connection to the death reel and resurrection of Jesus Christ in
three days … all these predictions
Is there any prediction made in the Quran which does not relate to the prophets of the Old
Testament
Chairman: Thank you sir … Mr. Deedat
G: Just to clarify the question … is there any prophecy of the Quran you say which does not
relate to what ..? I lost you their … I am sorry
Q2: Which is not taken from the Old Testament
G: oh … is there any prophecy in the Quran that doesn't come from the Old Testament
Q2: that's not taken from their … the Old Testament
G: Ok … yes … sure … if … it depends on what you mean by prophecy, if you are talking
about prediction of something to happen … yes
You have for example one of those falsifiable statements as I said … I believe he was quoting
it when he talked
The Quran said to the Muslims "you will always find those closest in love to you will be the
Christians rather than the Jews"
You see today that still stands and still for 14 centuries to the Jews telling them "you Jews
want to prove Muslims are wrong ... here … the Quran tells you what to do … it says treat us
better than the Christians do and we will believe you"
You see … it told the Jew "all you have to do is start treating Muslims very nice, let a few
years go by then say to the Muslims (doesn't your book say the Christians are better friends
than we are, … look look we are better friends)" but they have never thought of it … that's a
prophecy you see
Q2: my question was for Mr. Deedat to answer
D: your question has been framed in such around about way. You said that is a very simple
question. But if you will put simply to me, it will make it easy for me to answer, will you
please repeat your question
Q2: my question is, do you have any predictions in the Quran any prophecy in the Quran,
that was not taken …
D: Right, in the Quran, there are, there are prophecies in the Quran at the time of the
prophet "‫"ص‬, when they were under trials and tribulations, when there seem to be no hope
God almighty gives the holly prophet Mohamed a hope, that he is going to concur, and they
will be able to return to Makah and perform their Haj
Then there is a chapter in the Quran called Surah Rum … Rum
And in that Surah, the incident that is referred to is that the Persians and the Romans they
were at war, and the Persians concurred the Romans
And in the Quran they were told that within a small period of time the romans will once
more again concur the Persians
These are prophecies being fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet
And … and a standing prophecy about the supremacy of Islam over all the religions
You see, in the holly Quran we are told. He says "‫"ليظهره على الدين كله‬
That the God almighty has given Mohamed in Islam a religion, a way of life that is going to
concur … supersede every way of life
Whether it be Judaism Hinduism Buddhism Christianism
And from the figure that I gave you at the beginning of my talk, where I said that there are a
1000,000,000 Muslims in the world today … as against 1200,000,000 Christians.
Numerical … people who fill census forms 1200,000,000
But if you take into account that Islam started 600 years after Christianity
You can see the obvious, … that Islam is superseding every other way of life
And the "plain truth" magazine of some few month back, there were figures given of the
progress or the growth of each and every religion on earth, each and every philosophy and in
that you will find the highest percentage of progress was given to Islam, something like 267
percent as against the Roman Catholics as against the Hindus as against the Jews. Every
system
So here is a prophecy that is being fulfilled all the time. I hope that answers your question
Q3: I simply want to say that I agree with everything both speakers have said except for your
second speech among one issue
Does you first of all agree with me that god created the universe as well as us
G: Do I believe that god created the universe as well as us
Q3: yes do you?
Chairman: Mr. Miller
G: ok, if I understand your question, you say "Do I believe that god created the universe as
well as us?"
Q3: yes that's right, all living creatures on this planet as well
G: Yes of course, it depends on how do you mean by create, they told me the story the other
day, they said "when he made man he rolled up his sleeves and he made man", no I don’t
believe that. Create, however happened he created yes
Q3:no no no … however it happens … yes. I am willing to go along with that
G: Ok
Q3:however he created it. The fact is you agree god created every thing
G: yes
Q3: now you said it was not possible … look aaaah … I am not talking for Christianity or
anybody else
You said that Christ could not have been of virgin birth
G: no I didn't say that no no no, I didn't say that, no no, misunderstood, I didn't
say that …
Q3: OK
G: be sure you misunderstood me, I didn't say that, no no, no no no, what I said was "people
when they use this argument, when they say (who was his father) and they say (god was his
father), I ask them (do you mean god took Marry his wife)"
I am not denying that … I am saying he had no father, that's physically possible to some
biologist, they will tell you (you can do it today, you can make a child without a father), you
take like they do with rabbit eggs they … what they call it? … deploy it, you put the … if they
touch each other's they will reproduce
But that’s … possible, no problem
Q3: accidentally, impregnation, I agree with that
But tell me, if god himself chose to sin, or chose to come to this planet, to the people whom
he created, in the form of a human being, why do you think that he should have limitation in
that he should not be able to do that
G: No I didn't say I think he should not be able to do that, what I am pointing out to you was
…
You have to clarify what you mean. If you say "god became a human being", I still want to
know what you mean
Do you mean he used to be god but now he is a man, he is not god any more, or do you mean
something else and so on
That a person … is not … it's too easy to say (god took on a form of a human being)
Finfish it for me … did he surrender some of his physical powers, and he will usually tell you
(yes)
And then I say did he surrendered his mental powers, and he will have to think about that,
to say (well, no, yes, maybe he did, I don’t know) and so on. You have to clarify what you
mean if you said (god became a man)
You have to really explain what you mean before I could possibly agree with you
Q3: What you are looking for now is scientific proof
G: No no. I am looking for an understanding of what someone means. It's like me asking
you (is it colder in the winter than it is in Alaska?), and you are going to say (what are you
talking about, the winter and Alaska, and so on), you got to clarify it
If you say (could god become a man), I am saying (you explain to me what you mean and I
will tell you whether I agree or not)
You need a clear explanation of (do you mean "he gave up everything godly", and so there is
no god anymore, he has become a man, but somehow he will become god again. Or do you
mean "he is a man and he is god", in which case I want to know … then is he mortal or
immortal … you know, does he know everything or not, and so on, you see
Q3: All right, to answer your question I will just assume that god became a man and remain
god. Why was that not possible, if he created the universe why couldn’t he do that
G: Because as I said … because it is a logical mistake that people make when they say (god
can do anything), it's not true
God cannot do anything unless you believe he does stupid thing
Does he do foolish things, does he do week things, does he do silly things
He is limited because he is god to doing godly things, to start with
Now if you tell me (he is a man and he is god), I simply have a natural question, I am saying
(could they kill him or not, is he mortal or immortal), god is mortal, man is immortal.
Which was he if he is both and so on?
To say, if he is a man, a man by definition has limitation, that’s what makes him a man, he
doesn’t know everything, that’s why he is a man
If god is a man, what is this being then, does he know everything or only something. If he
knows only something he is a man; if he knows everything he is god, you see …
That’s the problem, it's that you cannot combine the two, or so far no one has ever done it
for my satisfaction,combine the two
Q3: you are … you are simply using human logic … on on… on a quantity that was capable of
creating the entire universe, you are now applying human logic
G:of course, is there a better kind of logic, where do I find it?
Ok … no … is there is another kind of logic, where do I find it. Because if there is a better
logic you tell me where can I go find the text book, I want to know about it
Q3: well if you say in the one breath that he created the universe as well as everything that
lives on this planet, you have to accept that anything is possible
G: I just told you why god can not do everything, because my god can not do stupid things,
so he has some limitations, he only does godly things, OK
Q3: I am sorry sir, but your definition of stupid things in god's definition, I won't argue
Chairman: Thank you sir, the next question please
Q4: I greet you all in the name of the lord Jesus Christ …
I will ask Mr. Miller a question …. Am
First of all, how much you are paid to come down here
Chairman: I think Mr. Miller
G: no no, you must have come in late, I explained that
Q4: no no … you did explain that but … I feel that something fishy about it, because you let
yourself down
G: Ok as I told you in Islam …
Q4: you said that nobody paid your fair
G: that's right, that's right
Q4: it seems like you are telling a lie
You are a liar
In the name of the lord Jesus Christ, you are a liar
G: ok but you see .. if your religion … if your religion … if your religion permits you to call a
man a liar without proof … that's to your shame, my religion doesn't permit me to call a man
a liar unless I bring the proof
Q4: right …
Chairman: thank you, thank you, anyone who has a question to ask on the merits of the
discussion please pose your question … you are excused sir, the next person will now ask his
question
Q4: I will ask my question now
Chairman: I am sorry sir, you forfeited your right to ask a question, will the next person
please pose his question?
Well you please remain silent ladies and gentlemen, this is important
… you will have an opportunity if there is time remaining, well you please now allow the
next person to ask the question?
--- is it a question on the merits of the discussion or is it some defamatory statement which
you intent to make?
Q4: on the merits … yeah , right, fine

Chairman: yes … please restrict yourself to the merits of the discussion

Yes go ahead and ask your question
Q4: Mr. Miller, If I am to take an orange, and in front of you peel this orange and slowly cut
it into many pieces, and then I take this orange and I slowly eat this orange piece by piece,
and eventually when the orange has been eaten, and ask you a question … Mr. Miller (how
does that orange taste?) what would you tell me?
G: he ate it but I didn't eat it?
Q4: don’t dock the mic please
Chairman: is that the entire question?
Q4: that’s right
G: just trying to figure your question, you tell me (you eat an orange?)
Q4: yes
G: and then you asked me how did it taste?
Q4: yes .. yes .. that’s right
G: I can tell you how most oranges taste, but I have no idea how the one tasted that you ate
Q4: that’s right, that’s right Mr. Miller, you haven’t tasted Jesus Christ, you
haven’t experienced the power of the holy spirit, you haven’t experienced the power of the
holy spirit and the new birth in Jesus Christ
G: yeah yeah, but ….
Q4: Don’t cut me off
G: Fine, are you finished with your question or you want to give another lecture, because if
you want to give a lecture we will come and hear you some time, but … you know this was
supposed to be a question period
Q4: Put the mic on there
G: you asked a question, I gave you an answer
Q4: you didn’t experience the power of Jesus Christ, how would you know
G:yeah fine, you asked a question, I gave you my answer, if you say you have experienced
the power of Jesus Christ … god bless you, that is your business
Q4: You haven’t ate the orange
G: that's right that is your business
Q4: You haven’t ate the orange, You haven’t ate the orange
G: I understand, I am not a child, I understand your point, I just said (if you have sampled
this wonderful power and so on, that is your business, it's not something you can give me,
God has to give it to me)
Ok … so don’t tell me you are going to save me somehow, because if god gave you this thing
that’s between you and god, be my gest
Q4: you didn’t experience the power of God
Chairman: Next question
Q5: greeting bros and sisters in the lovely name of Jesus Christ this evening
When I’ve seen the advert in the newspaper concerning our friend Mr. Deedat and Mr.
Miller, I read about divinity being confirmed today in this auditorium as it were
Sorry for being late, I’ve been busy at church services
But … this is one thing that I would want to stress to Mr. Miller
That he has come to point out to people out here the meaning of divinity
And what he has actually finished off ward on the stage doesn’t confirm any thing as far as
divinity is concerned to me
And I would want to leave with him is this, only just one thing
If he cannot believe that god can be doing everything at the same time
If I can operate three different jobs at the very same time
I can kick, I can punch, I can smile, I am human
My god can do much more than that, because he is divin
Thank you my friend, god bless you
Chairman: thank you, do you have a question sir
Q6: I just want to ask one question to Mr. Deedat
When you die where are you going?
Chairman: Mr. Deedat
Deedat: Is that your question?
Q6: yes
Deedat: mic … mic …. Mic
By the grace of god, I believe I will go in heaven “‫”إن شاء هللا‬
Q6: but now … is aaaa
Chairman: the next questioner please, well you please take your seat sir. The next person to
the mic
Q7: Mr. Miller, for the benefit of most of the Christian people here, I’d like to ask you a
simple question
Are you a Christian or a Muslim?
Chairman: Mr. Miller
Miller: I thought I made that clear by what I was summing up by
You see names like Jew, the meaning is “one who praises God” “Jew”
I am a Jew I praise God, but I am not capital J E W, means I am an Israeli citizen or
something, Jew in the meaning
Christian is not a Christ given name
Jesus never said call your selves Christian, that was a nick name
That was given years after his time, but ….
If by Christian you mean “one who follows Christ”
I am a Christian
In the same way Muslim is not a label that means you are an Arab or something
Muslim means “one who submit his well to God”
I am a Muslim, I submit my well to god
If you want to say your salvation belongs according to some label … I am sure you don’t, you
are more sensible than that, I am sure
But if you say your label belongs to something
You fall into this trap as the Quran says “Do they say they have a contract with god?”
So that there salvation happened at this time never mind they live for forty more years
There salvation happened at this time
Because I believe you struggle tell the day you die
Any day, any given day someone can say “what’s your standing if you were to die right now?,
Are you ready to meet God?”
Yeah I know whether I am or not
But I can’t say “and a week from Tuesday I am still saved”
I don’t know till a week from Tuesday, because I am struggling and fighting with it until that
day
That is a large difference between kinds of people who grab labels or say I have my salvation
already
And other people who are not so quick with the labels and say “my salvation, I am working
on it, I am going to work on it till the day I die”
Q7: In other words, you are a Muslim
Miller: I am happy to be a Muslim, yes, happy to be a Muslim, thank god
Q7: Thank you Mr. Miller that answer it
Chairman: yes sir, your question
Q8: my question is this, when I am asking a question please don’t put the mic off, because
this is what you did in the city hall
If you want to answer a question you answer it full
Chairman: Sir
Q8: first I want to tell you praise the lord before I start my question
Halleluiah glory to his name
What I want to ask you is this
It has been mentioned from the platform that we all are porn Muslims, I want you to prove
that I am a porn Muslim
Miller: no problem, no problem, if you can understand what I mean by Muslim
The demonstration is there, you can study it and there is more books on the subject than
you could read
No … you want the answer or not, my wife can prove it to you
Q8: I am not a porn Muslim
Miller: do you want proof or not, you ask me for proof
Q8: I am not a porn Muslim, you put the mic off
Miller: do you want proof or not, you ask me for proof, now as soon as I open my mouth you
tell me I am not
If you want proof I will give it to you if you be quit
Q8: all right
Miller: the proof is what you will find if you investigate “what do people believe if no one
comes and tells them what to believe”
If you want to read the documentation of cases of people like the Capalco tripe of Papua who
never met civilized man till 1920’s
If you want to read the documentation of what did the aborigines of Australia believe before
the white man came there and so on
If you want to read the documented belief “what did they believe before someone came and
told them what to believe”
You will find it is Islam in everything but name, because they don’t speak Arabic they don’t
say Islam
The religion is the same “God is one, he has no sons, he is not subject to ageing, and so on
and so on and so on”
The proof is there
Q8: all right, I will answer you for that, can I answer him?
Chairman: No, I am afraid you cant sir
Q8: you put the mic off
Chairman: sir there is a limited … there is a limited time … there is a limited time
Q8: No I can answer him
Chairman: are there any other questions
Q8: here you are you suit the mic off
Chairman: are there any other questions
It is the prerogative of anyone who wants to express their opinion to invite either of the
speakers to a debate and then to exercise their rights to express their opinions
You are now availed of the opportunity of asking questions on the biases of the discussion
presented
If people do not persist on jury, laughing, joking, wasting time basically at the mic
I think fruitful and important questions which people can learn
Ladies and gentlemen this is an assembly of god
We are discussing divine issues important issues intrinsic to our lives
Those who persist on jurying and laughing or to say the least absolutely unstapled
Would you please ask you question sir
Q9: I have a few questions … just about three questions but don’t suit mic off
Chairman: unfortunately sir we have only five minutes
Q9: three questions in one minute
Chairman: yes please pose your ques…
Q9: in less than a minute
A person came up here and said to Ahmed Deedat “ are you sure you are going to heaven?”
Ahmed Deedat said “the grace … by the grace of God”
But the bible tells me “by the grace of god I can live a holly life …. By the blood of Jesus can
take me to heaven”, thank you
Chairman: do you want Mr. Deedat to comment on that
Q9: yes, Ahmed Deedat said “by the grace of god he should go to heaven”
And I want to know the how the grace of god can take him to heaven
Chairman: yes sir, Mr. Deedat …. The question is how can the grace of god transport a
person to heaven
Deedat: you know this cocksureness that you are displaying and the display of your fellow
cultist there
You know it amazes me that the Christian they were dragging their feet to get to the mic in
first instance
It’s one by one you are getting the courage to come along an waste our time
You are making statements and you want an answer
Look … I am humble, I am not as arrogant as cocksure as Jews were in the time of Jesus
You, you have the privilege of being as arrogant as you like
I am humble, I believe in the grace of god and on that strength I have hoped that by god
welling I shall enter the good pleasures of god
Did I condemn you?
Q9: that is what you said
Deedat: no that is you condemning yourself, the way … the arrogance in which you are
standing now and your fellow Christians there in the corner ready to runaway
Look look at them
Is this the way … Is this the way your cultured people and Christians behave, look at this
Look at the behavior, it’s an absolute disgrace on born-again Christians
Yes my friend if you have a question please ask your question, because yours will be the last
question
Chairman: thank you Mr. Deedat, we have just three minutes ladies and gentlemen.
Sufficient time for just one more question
Q10: thank you Chairman
I am a pit intrigued about things I heard this evening or this afternoon about rather
But I must certainly converse orate shooting at what I heard is in fact the truth whether is
from the Christian side or the Islamic side
But what I would like to get clarification on is “is it possible for God to turn into a man,
physical blood, bones and blood vessels, a perfect human being
Died two thousand years ago … for my sins two thousand years later
I’ve seen that how is that illogical
If I could get a reasonable explanation “how is this possible?”
Chairman: do you direct the question to Mr. Miller so or Mr. Deedat?
Q10: listened to both speakers have been telling the truth, so either one can take it
Chairman: Mr. Miller well you please answer, and this will be the last answer ladies and
gentlemen we don’t have time for any further questions Miller: you are asking me “is it
possible God can become a man and die for my sins and I can still benefit 2000 years later?”
You are asking the wrong person. I mean, ask a Christian, that’s what he believes, I have
reason not to
You see so I can’t really defend that idea because I don’t believe it … ok
I don’t believe that someone died for my sins, it becomes a hypothetical question
It’s like people saying “How many angels can dance on the head of the pen?”
I don’t know, I am not going to worry myself over it … you see
Since I don’t believe someone died for my sins, I am not going to try to defend the believe of
those who do
They may have their defense, and believe me I’ve heard them all
And they haven’t convenes me yet, so how can I offer you something, you see
Chairman: thank you, we have fortunately just one minute, I think we will entertain just one
more question
Q11: can we have sound?
Ok, Mr. Miller many Christians have attended this meeting under the impression that this
was going to be a normal type of symposium organized by the IPC
Where you have a Christian who puts forth his point of view and then Mr. Deedat puts forth
the Islamic point of view
Now I am sure after your speech more Christians are as confused as ever
For the sake of clarity could you tell us clearly without perambulating as to whether you are
a Christian or a Muslim
By Christian I mean one who recognizes the lordship of Jesus over his life
Or Muslim who does not recognize Jesus as lord but as one of the prophets
And as a practicing Muslim who follows all the …
Miller: see … you trying to … you may as well ask me “well I stop beating my wife … yes or
no?”
How do you know I am married … you see
Q11: what I want to know is “are you a Christian or a Muslim?”
Miller: you said “are you a Christian meaning you acknowledge Jesus as lord, or are you a
Muslim and you don’t acknowledge Jesus as lord?”
Jesus is lord and I am a Muslim saying that
He is lord and so as according to the Bible Abraham, it says Sarah because she was a good
wife called her husband lord
Whatever you mean by lord, may be something else, but I don’t hesitate to call him lord if
you mean master, teacher and so on, yes he was, by all means
Q11: I explain what I mean by lord …
Miller: by lord I guess you mean god in the flesh and so on and still I’ve tried to tell you “you
have to tell me what you mean by that”
Q11: yes
Miller: If you mean (was Jesus god?) as many Christians are now saying, they say “Jesus Is
god”, when you ask them (what do you mean?), they say “he was god’s chief’s spokesman, if
you spit in Jesus face, it’s the same as spitting in god’s face”
I agree with that … no problem
If that’s the sense you mean (he is god’s chief representative), Jesus said “who honors me
honors god”, no problem
But if you mean ... I don’t know what you mean. Do you mean his fingernails they were
divine when he cut them and he buried them they were Pieces of god, I don’t know “what do
you mean”, you see
Q11: what I mean is the way that you acknowledge Jesus Christ as lord of his life
Miller: you are saying the way (do you acknowledge as lord of your life)
Any prophet is lord of my life, in that if I find out this is something he used to do then … and
he offered it as a command that I should do it then I will do it
I don’t know if anything I am doing that … or not doing that Jesus said I should do, OK
Q11: I think that figures … return your free to say … thank you
Miller: … what ever
Chairman: thank you ladies and gentlemen … all right you have just beaten the ban, just one
more question
Q12: thank you very much
I preach every one of you … everyone here this evening in the precious name of the lord and
savior
What I must say that I enjoyed the discussion
We know that we are confronted here today by a Christian denomination and a Muslim
But us as human beings, I would like to put a question forward
We know that Mr. Deedat and Mr. Miller that we know that our lives has got to end
We know that after this life on earth we are going to go somewhere else
We do believe that
But now Mr. Deedat we want to know … from my belief we say that “except the man be born
again he can’t inherit the kingdom of god”
Now I don’t want to just live here on earth and die and my life is finish, we believe in our
soul where is it going to enter?
No I would like you to explain Mr. Deedat on those terms (except a man be born again he
can’t inherit the kingdom of god)
We believe that the same god created you has created me
So I would like to know my escape my choice as a sinner
Miller: fine … if you are saying am I born again … you see
The words born again are in the Bible, it’s a miss translation you know that as well as I do
The words in the Greek say (generated from above)
Now if you school that (born again), that’s fine, it’s close enough, literally …
Q12: sorry just relax, let’s take it slowly
Miller: literally it says in the original text as some bible translated “unless a man be
generated from above”
Now some people write “born again”
The real meaning “generated from above”
I am generated from above I believe because I didn’t know what to do then god showed me
what to do
So I was born again, I was generated from above, all right
Q12: Sir thank you sir does that distinguish between a sinner man and a righteous man
Miller: of course, one man is often to the road to destruction and the other man is going on
the straight path
Q12: yes sir and on his own accord can the born again experience be possible?
Miller: it comes from god, how can it be on your own accord
Q12: Amen praise the lord, as I say we believe in god, we shall inherit the kingdom of god
Miller: yes ok
Q12: only one way can go through god isn’t it sir?
Miller: yes of course, but what a person should worry about is reported Jesus said in
Mathew chapter 7 “many people will come to me on that day and say master, we used to do
wonderful things in your name” and he said “I will tell them, get away from me I never knew
you”, now …
Q12: that’s hypocrite
Miller: yes … yes sure, but these people are saying, you know, we did wonderful things
So what I am saying is everyone who says he is born again … that’s not a magic ticket, he
may not know what he is talking about
Q12: that’s right
Miller: we agree
Chairman: the mic please, gentleman
Q12: Mr. Deedat as we know, we might have been on different denominations, but let’s face
it, the most important thing is that we know that your aim is to win us … people to the
Muslim faith, just like the Christians wants to win people
Because we believe that we have one aim, isn’t it Sir? To inherit the kingdom of god
Chairman: Mr. Deedat
Deedat: the belief is there
But we can suffer from hallucinations
You see people thinking that they are on the right track
They are actually disobeying the laws and commandments of god
Instead of worshiping god they are worshiping a created being
A creature born in the stable to a Jewish girl
Now you say he is your god
So for that we say that you are going to go to hell
There is no way out for you because you are now comforting divinity upon a human being
And this human being never claim to be god
You see this human being was born in the stable 2000 years ago
In the stable he was circumcised on the 8th day
He used to drink milk from his mother’s breast
He used to wet his napkins
I don’t know … I can see … look you have been agreeing with the speaker all along
I was watching you, you were agreeing, agreeing all along
But somehow at the back of the mind there is another type of … you know … cultivation
Which is making you to think that you have got the right road
But you are my child on the wrong road
You see Jesus Christ never said he is god … no where
Nor did he say worship me … any where
So if you have a church … you know if you have a church … your minister, your father, your
bishop
Ask him to organize a meeting and we will come and listen to him
You see on all this things you are talking
And we will question them
And I assure you bishop or your pop will get cold feet, and he will never allow anybody to
question them
There are Christian missionaries here, they are going to deliver lectures but they have not
got that courage of the convection to allow the Muslims to question them
They want to push things down people throats
Look this we haven’t done to you
We have given you a very fair opportunity as you will acknowledge
But people have been dragging there feet to the mic
That you will also agree, look you should have been the first man … look they have been
dragging there feet
So, look you were there, people from the outside have been coming in
But it took you so long to come, you are the last man, may god bless you
But now look, what you do, arrange a meeting or dialog or a discussion or a debate
Go ahead and arrange it and we will come and meet you on your ground
Chairman: thank you Sir
Ladies and gentlemen unfortunately no time remains for questions, thank you very much
for attending
I am sure we are all enriched by our attendance here this evening
Thank you ladies and gentlemen