ON BECOMING A QUANT

MARK JOSHI

1. What does a quant do?

A quant designs and implements mathematical models for the pricing

of derivatives, assessment of risk, or predicting market movements.

2. What sorts of quant are there?

(1) Front office/desk quant
(2) Model validating quant
(3) Research quant
(4) Quant developer
(5) Statistical arbitrage quant
(6) Capital quant
A desk quant implements pricing models directly used by traders.
Main plusses close to the money and opportunities to move into trading.
Minuses can be stressful and depending on the outfit may not involve
much research.
A model validation quant independently implements pricing models
in order to check that front office models are correct. Plusses more
relaxed, less stressful. Minusses model validation teams can be unin-
spired and far from the money.
Research quant tries to invent new pricing approaches and sometimes
carries out blue-sky research. Plusses it’s interesting and you learn a
lot more. Minusses sometimes hard to justify your existence.
Quant developer – a glorified programmer but well-paid and easier
to find a job. This sort of job can vary a lot. It could be coding scripts
quickly all the time, or working on a large system debugging someone
else’s code.
Statistical arbitrage quant, works on finding patterns in data to sug-
gest automated trades. The techniques are quite different from those in
Date: August 9, 2007.
1
2 MARK JOSHI

derivatives pricing. This sort of job is most commonly found in hedge

funds. The return on this type of position is highly volatile!
A capital quant works on modelling the bank’s credit exposures and
capital requirements. This is less sexy than derivatives pricing but is
becoming more and more important with the advent of the Basel II
banking accord. You can expect decent (but not great) pay, less stress
and more sensible hours. There is currently a drive to mathematically
model the chance of operational losses through fraud etc, with mixed
degrees of success.
People do banking for the money, and you tend to get paid more the
closer you are to where the money is being made. This translates into
a sort of snobbery where those close to the money look down on those
who aren’t. As a general rule, moving away from the money is easy,
moving towards it is hard.

3. Areas of derivatives
• FX
• Equities
• Fixed income
• Credit derivatives
• Commodities
• Hybrids

FX is short for foreign exchange. Contracts tend to be short-dated

with high volume and simple specifications. Emphasis is therefore on
speed and smile modelling.
Equities means options on stocks and indices. Techniques tend to
be PDE based with the local vol model being popular. A typical con-
tract is a note paying some function of the stock price path. Not a
particularly big market.
Fixed income means interest rate derivatives. This is probably the
biggest area by value. The maths is more complex because the under-
lying is multi-dimensional. Martingale techniques are used a lot. It’s
well paid.
Credit derivatives are derivatives that pay-off according to the de-
faults of corporate entities. This is currently a big growth area with lots
of demand translating into very high pay. It displays some bubble-like
characteristics, however.
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 3

Commodities, this is also a big growth area with the general rally in
commodity prices in recent years.
Hybrids are derivatives that pay off according to behaviours in more
than one market – this is typically interest rates plus something else.
The main advantage of working on such products is ability to learn
multiple areas. These are also very trendy currently.

4. Sorts of employers

We can roughly divide employers into

• Commercial banks, e.g., RBS, HSBC
• Investment banks, e.g., Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers
• Hedge funds, e.g., the Citadel Group
• Accountancy firms
• Software companies
Commercial banks ask less of you, and pay less. Better job security.
Investment banks tend to demand long hours but pay well. Not so
good job security.
Hedge funds tend to demand a lot of work. They are very volatile
and a big growth industry currently. There is the potential to make a
huge amount of money, but also the potential to be unemployed after
a few months.
In general, American banks pay better but demand longer hours than
European banks.
The big accountancy firms have quant teams for consulting. Some
places, particularly D-fine, send their employees on the Oxford Masters
course. The main disadvantage is that you are far from the action, and
high quality individuals tend to work in banks so it may be hard to
find someone to learn from.
There is becoming more of a tendency to outsource quant modelling
and buy in software models. One option is therefore to work for the
software company instead. The issues are similar to those with working
for accountancy firms.

5. Study

What should one learn? There is by now a huge number of books

available. Standard books are
4 MARK JOSHI

• Hull - Options future and other derivatives – this is sometimes

called the “bible book.” Main downside is that it is oriented
towards MBAs rather than quantitative PhDs.
• Baxter and Rennie – accessible introduction to martingale ap-
proach but oriented towards theory rather than practicalitues
• Wilmott (Derivatives) – good on the PDE approach but not so
good on other approaches.
Like any author I recommend my own books:
• The concepts and practice of mathematical finance, CUP 2003,
my objective here was to cover what a good ought quant ought
to know. It includes programming projects that I strongly ad-
vise you to do before applying for jobs.
• C++ design patterns and derivatives, CUP 2004, this is a sec-
ond book on C++, the objective was to teach the reader how
to use the language properly.
I am also working on a book of quant job interview questions and on
the sequel to “concepts” which is called “More mathematical finance.”
Stochastic calculus is useful, but not as important as it at first ap-
pears. It is hard to find the time to pick it up on the job so it’s worth
learning in advance. It’s also worth spending some time going over ba-
sic probability theory – eg Chung’s books. Some books on stochastic
calculus and martingales which I like are
• Williams, Probability with martingales, a remarkably easy to
read rigorous account of discrete time martingale theory. (You
need to know the discrete time stuff to learn the continuous
case.)
• Rogers and Williams, particularly Volume 1.
• Chung and Williams, you need to know continuous time mar-
tingales first, but if you do it is a nice read.
I keep a much more detailed list at

http://www.markjoshi.com/RecommendedBooks.html
I am also running a book forum to discuss books for entering quant
which you can access from

http://www.markjoshi.com
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 5

6. How much do I need to know?

The amount you must study before getting a job varies a lot from
place to place. It goes up every year as it becomes more standard
to do financial mathematics degrees. At the time of writing, I would
advise knowing the contents of both my books well. A lot of candidates
go wrong by reading books instead of studying them. Pick a couple
of books and pretend that you have to do an exam on them (this is
essentially what happens in an interview,) if you aren’t confident that
you’d get an A in that sort of exam, don’t apply for jobs.
Interviewers tend to care more about understanding the basics well
than on knowing a lot. It’s also important to demonstrate genuine
interest in the field. Read the Economist and the FT or Wall Street
Journal comprehensively. It’s not unusual to ask basic calculus or anal-
ysis questions e.g. what is the integral of log x. Asking for a derivation
of the Black-Scholes equation is very common too. They always ask
you to explain your thesis so be prepared to be able to do this. Have
a prepared 60 second speech on every phrase on your cv.
The interview is also a chance for you to judge them. What are they
like as people? (You will be spending most of your waking life with
them so this is important.) What do they care about, as evidenced by
what they ask you? If most of the questions are about the minutae of
C++ syntax then be wary unless that’s the sort of job you want.
Generally, a PhD (or almost a PhD) is a necessity to get a quant
job. I would advise against starting before it’s awarded as it tends to
be hard to get it done whilst doing a busy job.
Having a masters degree in Financial mathematics but no PhD tends
to lead into jobs in banking in risk or trading support but not straight
quant jobs. Banking is becoming progressively more mathematical so
the knowledge is useful in many areas in banks. Some people then
manage to move into quant later on.
In the US, it seems to be becoming more and more common to do
a masters after a PhD. This still seems to be less the case in the UK.
There is a general move towards more routine work and less research
in banks making the job less interesting. This seems to be particularly
the case in the US. One head quant recently told me that he regards
research as something “to be contracted out to universities.”
6 MARK JOSHI

7. For pure mathematicians

The main challenge for a pure mathematician is to be able to get

one’s hands dirty and learning to be more focussed on getting numeric
results than on fancy theories. The main way to do this is to implement
pricing models for practice. If this doesn’t appeal you aren’t suited to
being a quant. There are quite a few ex-pure mathematicians working
in the city so it can certainly be done but there is some prejudice in
favour of applied maths and physics people. Generally, people tend to
hire people who are like them so if you can find anyone with a similar
background working in the city, apply to them.
I sometimes get asked by people whether they should do a pure
maths PhD or a financial maths one. If you are absolutely sure you
want to do derivatives pricing then you should do it in financial maths.
(Yes, I am taking PhD students.) If you aren’t sure then don’t. A good
compromise is to do stochastic calculus, this is a hard area which will
give plenty of intellectual stimulation and leave you very well placed
for working in derivatives if you ever want to make the switch.

8. Coding

All forms of quants spend a large amount (i.e. more than half)
their time programming. However, implementing new models can be
interesting in itself. The standard programming approach is object-
oriented C++. A wannabe quant must learn C++. 1 Some places use
MatLab and that is also a useful skill, but less important. VBA is also
used a lot, but there is a general attitude that you can pick it up on
the job.

9. Applying for a job

All of the finance forums have their own jobs advertising boards.
A lot of adverts are from recruitment consultants rather than from
banks. It is important to realize that the job may not even exist – the
consultant wants to get decent candidates that he can then try to place
them in banks. The consultant gets a commission from the bank if he
can place you. They tend to have short attention spans; 2 if you do
well at the first couple of interviews then they will work hard to get
1I
have no opinion on whether this should be the correct language for imple-
menting; it is merely the correct language for getting a job.
2To any headhunters reading this, sorry but it’s true.
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 7

you a good job but if you don’t they will quickly lose interest. Also,
be aware their agenda is to get a good commission rather than to help
you so they will push you at jobs on that basis. (A typical cut is 25%
of your first year’s package so whether you say “yes” to a job makes a
difference of ten thousand pounds to them.) If you want to understand
them, think of estate agents.
In fact, going via a recruitment consultant is the standard way to
get a job. Quants are generally not hired as a part of the on campus
recruitment process but instead hired as they are needed by the team.
That said it is worthwhile to go to presentations and to meet the people,
and get their contact details for later. Because of this it is not a great
idea to start applying a long time before you want to start. Banks tend
not to be into paying expenses for interviews. One therefore needs to
go to London or New York and attempt to get as many interviews as
possible as quickly as possible.
If you have personal contacts, you should use them. Employers prefer
not to use headhunters if they can avoid it. If you are finishing a
maths or physics PhD from a top university you will be a hot property.
Employers will be keen to get you before someone else grabs you so
make use of this.
Recruitment agencies vary tremendously and are discussed at great
length on all the online forums. Two which seem to know what they are
doing more than most, and which have their own much more extensive
guides are Michael Page and paulanddominic.
If you get offered a job that is not in your ideal area do not be too
worried. It is the first job that is hard to get. You can move on. The
main thing is not to spend more than a couple of years in an area where
you do not want to be. Quants are most employable with 18 months
to 2 years experience. With more than that they tend to be too well
paid and get pigeon-holed.
From time to time, I hear of someone being offered a job and being
told they must accept immediately or within 24 hours. This is un-
reasonable and you should question why they are doing this, and do
you want to work with someone who treats you this way? Possible
responses are

• “Why?”
• Does that mean the offer will go away if I don’t accept imme-
diately?
• “Oh I get it, you are testing my naivety” and laugh.
8 MARK JOSHI

• Mark Joshi’s guide says never to accept an offer made under

such circumstances.
If you are interviewing with other places, call them first and tell them
the circumstances, they will find this less annoying than you telling
them you accepted a job under pressure.

10. Pay

How much does a quant earn? A quant with no experience will

generally get between 35 and 50k pounds. The lowest I have heard
of is 25k and the highest is 60 plus a signing on bonus. If the pay
is outside the standard range, you should ask yourself why? Pay will
generally go up fairly rapidly. Bonuses are generally a large component
of total salary, and should be taken into account when negotiating pay.
E.g. you may be able to get a guaranteed bonus if the base is lower.
Do not get too focussed on what the starting salary is. Instead
examine what the job opportunities will be, and what the learning
experience is likely to be. How much turnover is there in the team?
and where do the people go?

11. Hours

How hard does a quant work? This varies a lot. At RBS we got in
between 8.30 and 9 and went home around 6pm. The pressure varied.
Some of the American banks expect much longer hours. Wall St tends
to be more demanding than the City. In London 5 to 6 weeks holidays
is standard. In the US 2 to 3 is standard.

12. Interviewing

Here are some do’s and don’ts that will reduce your chance of messing
up unnecessarily.
• Don’t be late.
• Don’t be early; this annoys the interviewer. Get there early, go
to a cafe and have a lemonade and turn up dead on time.
• Do eat a good meal beforehand; sugar lows destroy thinking
power.
• Don’t argue with the interviewer about why they’ve asked you
something. They’ve asked you it because they want to know
whether you can do it.
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 9

• Do appear enthusiastic.
• Do wear a suit.
• Do be eager to please. They want someone who’ll do what they
want, you must give the appearance of being obliging rather
than difficult.
• Don’t be too relaxed; they may well conclude that you aren’t
hungry enough for success to work hard.
• Don’t tell them they shouldn’t use C++ because my niche lan-
guage is better.
• Do demonstrate an interest in financial news.
• Do be able to talk about everything on your cv (resume in
American). Have a prepared 2 minute response on every phrase
on it.
• Do bring copies of your CV.
• Don’t expect the interviewer to be familiar with your CV.
• Don’t say you’ve read a book unless you can discuss its contents;
particularly, if they’ve written it.
• Do be polite.
• Do ask for feedback and don’t argue about it. Even if it’s wrong
try to understand what made the interviewer think that.
• Don’t say you want to work in banking for the money; of course,
you do but it’s bad form to say so.
• Do say you want to work closely with other people rather than
solo.
• Don’t say that you think that bankers are reasonable people –
they aren’t.
• Do take a break from interviewing and do more prep if more
than a couple of interviews go badly.
• Don’t use a mobile for a phone interview.
• Do be able to explain your thesis – work out explanations for
different sorts of people in advance.
• Don’t expect banks in the UK to pay for interview expenses. If
they do agree to pay, make sure they are willing to pay what
your ticket will cost. eg don’t get an expensive ticket if they
say they’ll pay for a cheapo airline.
• Do ask about the group, you’ll be working in. e.g. turnover,
where people go when they leave, how many, when can you meet
the rest of the group (only if an offer appears imminent), how
old the group is, what’s the team’s raison d’etre, is it expanding
or contracting. What would a typical working day be?
• Don’t get on to the topic of money early in the process.
10 MARK JOSHI

A general comment is that quant has the reputation of being a hard

area to get into, but if you talk to any hiring manager they’ll tell
you that they interview lots of candidates and most are terrible. It’s
rare to be forced to choose between two good candidates; it’s much
more common to be relieved that you’ve finally found one who’s good
enough. The moral is that most candidates are failing to reach the
required level. If you are good at maths and do your preparation, you
can be at that level and get a job.

13. The CQF

I get more e-mails on this topic than any other. I have little direct
experience of it. However, here’s my impressions from others.
First, the CQF stands for “the Certificate in Quantitative Finance”
and is run by 7City training. This organization was created by quant
author Paul Wilmott of wilmott.com. Wilmott also created the diploma
in Mathematical Finance at the University of Oxford before parting
company with that organization.
The CQF is a six-month part-time course which is available by dis-
tance learning. Its aim is to teach the attendee how to be a quant.
Here some comments from a recent satisfied customer who was al-
ready working in banking:
The CQF is an excellent course, that is like a condensed accelerated
MSc in Mathematical Finance. The CQF covers the basics plus a lot of
practical stuff like C++, Excel VBA and advanced topics like uncertain
parameters and stochastic volatility. It has definitely opened a lot of
doors for me that were previously closed, and it is becoming more and
more recognised within the industry. The whole thing takes 6 months,
with a module per month. Each module consists of 4 or 5 sections with
homework set at the end of each one. There is an exam at the end of
each module, where you need to score 60% or above to progress to the
next module. If anyone fails a module, they are given a reading list and
encouraged to join the course at the same point six months later - i.e.
with enough will no-one fails. The final exam is a programming project
where you’re given a Monte Carlo and FDM scenario to code up. The
content of the course is heavily mathematical with no holes barred -
Stochastic Calculus, derivation of Black Scholes, BS with dividends,
BS with discrete hedging, stochastic vol, jump diffusion, calibration,
interest rates models, credit models, etc etc. Foundational mathematics
is given prior to the start of the course if required, and new entrants
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 11

are required to sit a small exam to test out their ability to do the course
(basic calculus, linear algebra and probability type questions). All exams
are done at home, except for a final one at the very end of the course,
after the module exams, which is optional and determines if you get a
distinction. A distinction is basically an asterisk by your name in the
FT
Another recent attendee says that it inevitably covers less than an
MSc since it is part time over six months, versus one year full-time or
two-years part time for an MSc. He also thought it was well-suited to
those already with day jobs, and valuable for career development for
those wanting to move into more quantitative areas.
A general impression seems to be that it is easy to pass the course,
but getting a distinction requires some real work and ability.
A head-hunter suggests that it is more useful for those already work-
ing in banking to change areas rather than to move into banking.
A general complaint is that it’s expensive for what it is.
Paul Wilmott is someone who arouses strong emotions in the quan-
titative finance community, and certainly some people are against the
qualification for that reason.
The bottom line seems to be: worth doing if you want to move areas
within banking and your employer is willing to pay, but not the way
to get your first quant job after university.

14. Other resources

There are by now a large number of online forums where these sort
of questions are discussed to death. I keep an up to date list on
www.markjoshi.com . I also running a forum on www.markjoshi.com
for discussing books and career issues.

15. The view from Milan

Here are some comments made by Italian quant.

15.1. Sorts of employers in Italy. In Italy the employers can be

divided into:
• Investment Banks, e.g. Banca Caboto
• Commercial Banks, e.g. IntesaSanpaolo
12 MARK JOSHI

• Asset Management, Private Banking, Alternative Investments,

e.g. Eurizon Capital.
• Consultancy firms, e.g. Accenture, Deloitte.
• Software companies, e.g. Statpro, FMR.

Better job security can be found in Investment Banks, Commercial

Banks and Investment Management. Typically, financial institutions
don’t fire you unless you try to commit fraud. Investment Banks, Com-
mercial Banks and Investment Management also pay better then Con-
sultancy firms and Software companies. More over they offer a contract
which includes several benefits (e.g. health insurance) which aren’t
usually comprised in other companies’ standard contracts and which
can make the difference, expecially when at entry level and earning a
low base salary. I think it’s useful to consider that in period strongly
characterized by merge between big Italian financial institutions, the
demand for employees in Banks and Asset Management usually de-
creases for a couple of years while jobs opportunities in Consultancy
firms increase.

15.2. Applying for a job in Italy. If you’re looking for your first job,
headhunters won’t help you that much. Italian headhunters tend to pay
attention to candidates who already have some years of professional
experience. Nowadays you’re in the right track to get your first job
when you:

• Activate your personal contacts

• Send your cv to the human resources department of the compa-
nies you’re interested in and propose yourself for an internship
• Take part to the recruitment events organized by main institu-
tions (e.g. University)

When you’re looking for your first job, it’s really important to be
employable for an internship. I’d like to stress this point because start-
ing as a stageur is a good way to become an employee in few months.
Internship can be as long as four months up to one year. During this
period a project will be assigned to you and a tutor will train you.
Detailed information on the rules governing internship in Italy can be
found here:

http://www.sportellostage.it/aziende/normativa.htm.
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 13

As a stageur you have the opportunity to learn and understand if

you like that job, Most important if you reach the goals implied in
your assignments, you will become very precious for your tutor who
has invested time in training you and therefore he/she is interested in
hiring you at the end of the internship’s period.
When applying for an entry level role be prepared to face the follow-
ing selection’s stages:
(1) written aptitude tests and quantitative tests
(2) interview with human resources department’s people
(3) technical interview/s with one or more members of the team
which you will join if you succeed the selection process
(4) interview with a person from HR to discuss the terms of your
contract
These steps are common to a great number of firms. It’s rhetoric but
I think it’s worthwhile: remember that there’s no second chance at
making a good first impression.

16. The view from Japan

Here are some comments from an Australian who did his PhD in
pure mathematics in Japan, and then went looking for a quant job.
I applied to banks in Japan through their standard new grad recruit-
ment programme (undergrads and postgrads together; note this seems
to be different to how a potential PhD applies in the UK). After many
info seminars and early-stage interviews, I got a much better idea of
people and roles in a bank. In fact I decided to go for trader/structurer
roles instead of quant.
The rates hybrids desk at an international bank said if I really wanted
to start immediately in trading then they’d let me (at this stage I had
the leverage of another firm’s structurer offer in my pocket), but they’d
like me to work as a quant for two years first. They said the best traders
know their models inside-out. I liked all the people there and I trusted
what they said, so I accepted their offer.

17. Management consulatancy

I have heard the following from a few quants with science PhDs. The
following happens
14 MARK JOSHI

• They decide to try management consultancy.

• They get nowhere applying.
• They conclude that consultancies are not interested in people
like them.
• They become quants.

Not knowing many management consultants, I can’t judge how many

people with science PhDs are successful at getting into management
consultancy, but there is a definite theme that consultancies do not
value science skills or personalities. (Any management consultant read-
ing this who wishes to give a contrary view, please feel free to contact
me.)

18. War stories

I would like to make this guide more dynamic by including the latest
gossip and stories of job applicants. So send me, [email protected],
your experiences, including info such as

• how many different firms?

• how many interviews per firm?
• what you thought of headhunters.
• how you got the job you took?
• which books were helpful?
• what you wish someone had told you before you started.

19. Interview questions

I am currently working on a book of quant job interview questions.

So please send me lists of questions: ones that are particularly tricky or
interesting are especially good. Boring questions are good too, however,
in that it gives me a feel for what is happening in the marketplace.

20. Courses

Once you’ve got that job, the firm will generally be willing to send
you on at least one training course. Please consider attending one of
mine. I keep a list on www.markjoshi.com
 ON BECOMING A QUANT 15

21. Advertising

Various recruitment agencies have asked for plugs. If you would like
to advertise in this guide, e-mail [email protected] .

22. Reproduction

Please don’t copy this guide on to your web-site. I am happy for you
to include extracts and a deep-link to it, however, and I will not move
the guide’s web location. The reason for this is that I update the guide
regularly and I do not want there to be lots of versions floating around
which I then have to police.