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 ECC ·  Nov 17, 2020

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Nov 17, 2020  #1

E Hello,

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ECC Main Storage (all SATA) for 5x 8TB and 3x 5TB. Access via SMB, 1-2 User. Atm only via GBit LAN
Neophyte
use of ECC
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
Messages: 8
No 24/7 Runtime, scheduled runtime / Access with WOL (Powerconsumption)
optional: Upgrade to 10GBit (when price is dropping)
enough Power for future projects (1-2VMs, but nothing to crazy)
Storage: Pool 1: 5x8TB RaidZ2, Pool 2: 3x5TB RaidZ1
Boot Pool: 2x 120 GB SSD SATA Mirror
Backup: 2x14TB USB 3.0 -> backup strategy not decided yet...

After long research, I narrowed it down to the following setup:

Intel Core i3-8100, boxed

Fujitsu D3644-B
be quiet! Pure Power 11 CM 400W ATX
MZHOU PCIe SATA 6 Port, PCIe to SATA Marvell 88SE9215 (Mainboard only has 6xSATA Ports)

not decided yet:

RAM:

1x Kingston Server Premier DIMM 32GB, DDR4-3200, CL22-22-22, ECC (KSM32ED8/32ME) OR

2x Kingston Server Premier DIMM 16GB, DDR4-2666, CL19-19-19, ECC (KSM26ED8/16ME)

CASE:

SilverStone Case Storage CS380 V2 OR

Fractal Design Define R5 Black

Questions:

good setup for my usecase? suggestions?

RAM: what is the better option? Will TrueNAS profit from Dual Channel RAM? 32GB enough?
Case (pro arguments):
Silverstone:
HotSwap feature (HDD status LED). Otherwise, if one drive fails, how do I know which drive to replace?
Fractal:
It looks like it has a better quality than the Silverstone case
Noise Damping
maybe better airflow?
Power supply sufficient? Staggered Spin Up necessary / supported?
MZHOU Sata PCIe Card Extension: Supported via TrueNAS? Known issues? Alternatives?

I hope you can help me with this, thank you!

Nov 17, 2020  #2

J I think your power supply is way under sized for the amount of drives you are anticipating using. 10Gbit for 1-2 users seems excessive, do you also plan
on adding 10Gbit nics to the end user computers as well? I would go with the 2 16GB sticks of ram, the timings are better and you will actually use DDR,
with 1 stick you cant use DDR. Plus i dont think that CPU can even use 3200mhz ram.

jayecin | TrueNas Server | i7 10700 | Asus Prime B460M-A | 2 X 16GB Non-ECC 2933MHZ | 2 x 8TB WD Red Storage | 2 x 500GB Samsung 840 VM | 256GB WD Blue NVME Boot | Corsair CX 750
Member
Joined: Oct 12, 2020
Messages: 47

Nov 19, 2020  #3

E jayecin said: 

I think your power supply is way under sized for the amount of drives you are anticipating using.

ECC - Why should 400W be too small? The only worstcase scenario I can imagine is the simultanious spin up of all HDDs. I calculated ~30W for each drive,
Neophyte
which would be around 300W, (8 internal, 2 external). Then I have got 100W spare for CPU etc. CPU power usage at boot should be that much (CPU TDP
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
Messages: 8 = 65W). After HDD spin up, power consumption should be much lower (~6 Watt/HDD)
-> Test with 15 drives, max power consumption was about 400W https://www.45drives.com/wiki/index.php?title=Start_up_Power_Draw

jayecin said: 

10Gbit for 1-2 users seems excessive, do you also plan on adding 10Gbit nics to the end user computers as well?

This is just optional, but yes. When i get a good deal, I would start with 2 devices (NAS & Main PC). Backups can take many hours, but atm this is not a
good reason to spend a lot of money for 10GBit. Therefore I'll start with 1Gbit

jayecin said: 

I would go with the 2 16GB sticks of ram, the timings are better and you will actually use DDR, with 1 stick you cant use DDR. Plus i dont think that CPU can even use
3200mhz ram.

Are there any benchmarks with truenas that can prove this?

Any other comments on my questions?

Nov 19, 2020  #4

ECC said: 

- Why should 400W be too small? The only worstcase scenario I can imagine is the simultanious spin up of all HDDs. I calculated ~30W for each drive, which would be
around 300W, (8 internal, 2 external). Then I have got 100W spare for CPU etc. CPU power usage at boot should be that much (CPU TDP = 65W). After HDD spin up, power
jgreco consumption should be much lower (~6 Watt/HDD)
Resident Grinch
-> Test with 15 drives, max power consumption was about 400W https://www.45drives.com/wiki/index.php?title=Start_up_Power_Draw
Moderator
Joined: May 29, 2011 Because the 45drives chassis are built to do staggered spinup.
Messages: 13,084

We have an excellent Proper Power Supply Sizing Guide here that shows you how to calculate this correctly. I do this stuff professionally, and it explains
the various ins and outs.

Dismayed

Nov 19, 2020  #5

ECC said: 

Any other comments on my questions?

HoneyBadger The Fujitsu motherboard you've selected doesn't appear to have support for 32GB DIMMs. If it does, that's great - and I would suggest going with the
Mushroom!
Mushroom!
single 32GB one as it leaves you with 3 slots free. ZFS cares much more about RAM quantity vs "quality" (in terms of premature optimizations around
Joined: Feb 6, 2014 timing/latency)
Messages: 2,816

ECC said: 

MZHOU Sata PCIe Card Extension: Supported via TrueNAS? Known issues? Alternatives?

When it comes to HBAs and extra drives, "Just buy LSI" - use the SAS2008 if you have no designs on SSDs, or the SAS2308. Rebranded OEM cards are fine
for this too.

Got an SLOG device? Please benchmark it and add more data to this thread!
"I can't wait until I have to explain to people why (SMR drives) make for a terrible choice for your zpool." - March 2015
"You have a talent for understatement." - jgreco

Nov 27, 2020  #6

E Sorry for my long absence. Meanwhile, I got an offer for

- Supermicro X8DTH
- Xeon E5540
ECC
Neophyte
- 16GB DDR 3 Ram
Joined: Nov 8, 2020 - 700 W 80 Plus Silver ATX PSU
Messages: 8
Would this do the trick? I thought it would be better to go with used HW for a better price
The board has plenty of pcie slots for further upgrades (Sata, 10G) and can store RDIMMs with up to 96GB RAM (single CPU)

However, I'm a little bit concerned about power consumption. What would you expect with this HW in idle?

Nov 27, 2020  #7

Be warned, the Nehalem and earlier generation Xeons typically run very hot and power hungry, compared to more recent stuff, Sandy Bridge and newer.

jgreco
Resident Grinch
Moderator
Joined: May 29, 2011
Messages: 13,084

Nov 27, 2020  #8

E jgreco said: 

Be warned, the Nehalem and earlier generation Xeons typically run very hot and power hungry, compared to more recent stuff, Sandy Bridge and newer.

ECC sorry, but I'm not an expert in CPU generations and specific datasheets. Should I keep that MB and switch the cpu to a newer model or is that MB too old,
Neophyte
so it would be recommend for a newer mb & cpu? What is the "best for the buck"?
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
Messages: 8

Nov 27, 2020  #9

ECC said: 

sorry, but I'm not an expert in CPU generations and specific datasheets. Should I keep that MB and switch the cpu to a newer model or is that MB too old, so it would be
recommend for a newer mb & cpu? What is the "best for the buck"?
HoneyBadger
Mushroom!
He means the Xeon 5500/5600 series. They're cheap, sure, but if you pay a lot for electricity you may end up seeing a bump in your electric bill (as well as
Mushroom!
additional HVAC costs in the summer) - if you're not responsible for power, or it's cheap, that may not matter to you.
Joined: Feb 6, 2014
Messages: 2,816
There were pretty major efficiency gains in Sandy Bridge (Supermicro X9 series, first-generation Xeon E-series chips) and another big win for idle power
consumption with Haswell (Supermicro X10, Xeon v3) - try to get to those two steps if you can, but bear in mind they're more expensive.

Got an SLOG device? Please benchmark it and add more data to this thread!
"I can't wait until I have to explain to people why (SMR drives) make for a terrible choice for your zpool." - March 2015
"You have a talent for understatement." - jgreco

kiriak

Nov 30, 2020  #10

E ok, I reconsidered my HW setup to the following:

- Supermicro X11SSM
- i3 7100T
- RAM ???
ECC
Neophyte
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
However, the information about ECC-Support for the i3-71XX are contradictory: Officialy it is supported but users claim that it is not. Is there some solid
Messages: 8 information?

For the RAM: I'm confused about the compatibility (and of course ECC support, yeah). Am I right that if I use UDIMM DDR4 ECC models (max 16GB per
RAM), I will have ECC support? singel/double channel is not that important with freenas? For example, this RAM should be supported?

Thank you for all your time, I know i ask a lot of noob questions

Dec 6, 2020  #11

I ECC said: 

Well, I had my doubts with Truenas/ Freenas and unfortunately they are true... it's all depending from the community support. And nobody cares about neebies that need
help with their questions and builds. Seems that I have to go with a supported OS.
Inxsible That's sad, I really liked the idea about TrueNAS...
Neophyte Sage
Joined: Aug 14, 2017 Not really sure what to make of this post.
Messages: 1,075

The forums is full of helpful people and many have tried to help you out.

ECC said: 

Sorry for my long absence. Meanwhile, I got an offer for

So you can go AWOL for a long time -- but if the people responding to you don't answer immediately then that is somehow the community's fault??

What exactly are you looking for?

Last edited: Dec 6, 2020

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Dec 6, 2020  #12

I ECC said: 

For the RAM: I'm confused about the compatibility (and of course ECC support, yeah). Am I right that if I use UDIMM DDR4 ECC models (max 16GB per RAM), I will have ECC
support?
Inxsible
Neophyte Sage No -- Just by using ECC RAM, you don't get ECC support. Your motherboard, CPU AND RAM -- all three need to support ECC.
Joined: Aug 14, 2017
Messages: 1,075
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Dec 6, 2020  #13

I ECC said: 

For example, this RAM should be supported?

Inxsible Whether a particular RAM Module is supported or not, depends more on your hardware -- like motherboard, CPU. The voltage that your MB and CPU use
Neophyte Sage
for RAM etc. FreeNAS/TrueNAS doesn't care what model # your RAM module is -- as long as your system POSTs.
Joined: Aug 14, 2017
Messages: 1,075
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Dec 6, 2020  #14

I ECC said: 

ok, I reconsidered my HW setup to the following:

- Supermicro X11SSM
Inxsible
- i3 7100T
Neophyte Sage
- RAM ???
Joined: Aug 14, 2017
Messages: 1,075
Since you are wildly swinging between an X8 gen and X11 gen -- my suggestion would be to get a X9 or X10 based board for the following 2 reasons.

1. The power consumption of X9/X10 is much better than the X8 gen architecture -- since you are so concerned about power consumption
2. Use a Pentium processor to get more power consumption benefits rather than looking at Xeons etc.

For eg. I had a Pentium G3240 (LGA 1151) on a Tyan S5533 -- which is the same socket as the Supermicro X10 generation. Get a X10SLM-F + Pentium
G3240

You haven't really described what you want to use the NAS for -- so assuming that you don't want to transcode multiple streams from Plex/Emby, a
Pentium should be plenty sufficient. I was running 4 jails with Emby, Couchpotato, Transmission and Git server.

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Dec 6, 2020  #15

E Inxsible said: 

No -- Just by using ECC RAM, you don't get ECC support. Your motherboard, CPU AND RAM -- all three need to support ECC.

ECC Of course all 3 components need to support ECC. You dropped the context! I told you my CPU and Motherboard:
Neophyte
- Supermicro X11SSM
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
Messages: 8 - i3 7100T
The question was, if I use Supermicro X11SSM + i3 7100T + UDIMM DDR4 ECC RAM, will i have ECC Support?

Inxsible said: 

Since you are wildly swinging between an X8 gen and X11 gen

Due to concerns from the others

Inxsible said: 

You haven't really described what you want to use the NAS for -- so assuming that you don't want to transcode multiple streams from Plex/Emby, a Pentium should be
plenty sufficient. I was running 4 jails with Emby, Couchpotato, Transmission and Git server.

Just read my first post :) I think I described it very detailed

ECC said: 

Usecase:

Main Storage (all SATA) for 5x 8TB and 3x 5TB. Access via SMB, 1-2 User. Atm only via GBit LAN
use of ECC
No 24/7 Runtime, scheduled runtime / Access with WOL (Powerconsumption)
optional: Upgrade to 10GBit (when price is dropping)
enough Power for future projects (1-2VMs, but nothing to crazy)
Storage: Pool 1: 5x8TB RaidZ2, Pool 2: 3x5TB RaidZ1 Click to expand...
B t P l 2 120 GB SSD SATA Mi
What is still open:

ECC said: 

However, the information about ECC-Support for the i3-71XX are contradictory: Officialy it is supported but users claim that it is not. Is there some solid information?

I also want to add a further question: Who can I test, if ECC really works? It seems like this is more a believe question...

Dec 6, 2020  #16

According to Intel Specs this CPU supports ECC. Supermicro has (in my opinion) really well maintained mainboard documentation. You should find a list of
supported memory modules and CPUs on their website - for every single mainboard.

How do you think the community could give you a qualified statement about an arbitrary mainboard/CPU/memory combination? That's the job of your
Patrick M.
supplier! Make the person selling you the system take care of working/non-working combinations.
Hausen
Dedicated Sage People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. (Isaac Asimov)
Joined: Nov 25, 2013
Messages: 2,044 Show : Production Hypervisor System

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Monday at 1:34 PM  #17

I ECC said: 

The question was, if I use Supermicro X11SSM + i3 7100T + UDIMM DDR4 ECC RAM, will i have ECC Support?

Inxsible Yes, that is obvious that it will. Each one of those support ECC -- so all three together will support ECC.
Neophyte Sage
Joined: Aug 14, 2017 ECC said: 
Messages: 1,075
Due to concerns from the others

Stop being concerned about the others -- decide what you want to do with the build and where your budget lies. Those two things will probably dictate
most of where this eventually ends up.

ECC said: 

Just read my first post :) I think I described it very detailed

Yes and so read my post about the recommendation -- Pentium G3240 with X10SLM-F. Does everything you need. It can even run 1 or 2 VMs as long as
you don't need hardware passthrough. This is what I meant by details -- you didn't mention what kind of VMs you had in mind. Will they need hardware
passthrough - if so the Pentium won't work since it does not support VT-d. Then you might have to bump it up to a Xeon E3 1220 v3. Do you need
HyperThreading too? well then you might need to bump it up even further to Xeon E3 1240 v3 and so on.

Make up your decisions as to what you want and there will be options available.

ECC said: 

I also want to add a further question: Who can I test, if ECC really works? It seems like this is more a believe question...

If you don't feel like trusting the source (Intel Ark) then it's up to you and I know the thread you are referring to. Choose another processor and move on
or figure out if you can perform the testing yourself or push others who can in that general direction.

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Patrick M. Hausen

Tuesday at 1:19 AM  #18

E Patrick M. Hausen said: 

You should find a list of supported memory modules and CPUs on their website - for every single mainboard.

ECC Unfortunately, I only found one 16GB 2666 Memory on Supermicro's website that is out of stock (MEM-DR416L-CV02-EU26)
Neophyte
However, my desired Kingston KSM26ED8/16ME 16GB seems to work with the X11SSM Mainboard, according to Kingston Homepage.
Joined: Nov 8, 2020
Messages: 8

Patrick M. Hausen said: 

According to Intel Specs this CPU supports ECC.

How do you think the community could give you a qualified statement about an arbitrary mainboard/CPU/memory combination? That's the job of your supplier! Make the
person selling you the system take care of working/non-working combinations.

That's the problem! As I said:

ECC said: 

However, the information about ECC-Support for the i3-71XX are contradictory: Officialy it is supported but users claim that it is not. Is there some solid information?

Who should I believe? In the end, it is not supported and all the research was a wasted time & money.
As I mentioned, I bought (mostly) used gear. Therefore, returning HW due to wrong information (ECC Support etc) is not possible. I hoped that users who
own the 7100T can tell me, whether ECC works with their HW config or not.
Due to this conflict, I bought a "backup" CPU, the i3-6100. If the 7100T should not be able to work with ECC, I hope I just can swap the CPU. I think that
shouldn't be a problem with an existing freenas setup?

Inxsible said: 

Stop being concerned about the others -- decide what you want to do with the build and where your budget lies

That is easier said then done... As I want to get the "best for the buck", I want to use mostly used gear. Especially Supermicro Motherboards can be very
expensive, that's why I wanted to buy them used. Unfortunately, that means that I get (very) old HW, which may have critical disadvantages, like extreme
power consumption or bottlenecks.
I know what I want, and that is mainly NAS functionality. But I want to have a little performance reserve (e.g. 10G Network,...)

Inxsible said: 

Do you need HyperThreading too? well then you might need to bump it up even further to Xeon E3 1240 v3 and so on.

I don't know, this is my first freenas server. Intel says that the i3-6100 and the i3-7100T should support it. The reason for going with freenas was data
integrety and performance boost, compared to my old qnap ts212p nas.

Inxsible said: 

Make up your decisions as to what you want and there will be options available.

If you don't feel like trusting the source (Intel Ark) then it's up to you and I know the thread you are referring to. Choose another processor and move on or figure out if you
can perform the testing yourself or push others who can in that general direction.

Well, meanwhile I have my setup (I bought these components):

Supermicro X11SSM
Intel i3-7100T (Backup i3-6100)
Xilence I402 CPU Cooler
2x Kingston Server Premier DIMM 16GB, DDR4-2666, CL19-19-19, ECC (KSM26ED8/16ME)
PSU AC BEL R88POWER 700W ATX12V 80PLUS SILVER
MZHOU PCIe 2.0 x 1 to SATA III 4-Port- Marvell-Chipset (for boot drives)

I read a little about ECC testing, but it seemed like it can destroy the RAM doing this procedure. Maybe you can tell me, which method you prefere or
which method is the most easy approach. Thank you.

Tuesday at 1:26 AM  #19

ECC said: 

As I mentioned, I bought (mostly) used gear. Therefore, returning HW due to wrong information (ECC Support etc) is not possible. I hoped that users who own the 7100T can
tell me, whether ECC works with their HW config or not.
Patrick M.
Hausen Not me in this case. I only run Xeons and Atoms. And you probably won't find a system sold by iX with your CPU, either.
Dedicated Sage
Joined: Nov 25, 2013 People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. (Isaac Asimov)
Messages: 2,044
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Thursday at 1:31 PM  #20

I Moderator Note: [Please do not engage in argumentative and insulting behavior. Your message has been altered to follow our rules. Thanks!]

ECC said: 
Inxsible
Neophyte Sage Unfortunately, I only found one 16GB 2666 Memory on Supermicro's website that is out of stock (MEM-DR416L-CV02-EU26)
Joined: Aug 14, 2017
However, my desired Kingston KSM26ED8/16ME 16GB seems to work with the X11SSM Mainboard, according to Kingston Homepage.
Messages: 1,075
The verified lists by the board manufacturers are only an indication of which memory modules they have tested with. It's not an exhaustive list in any way.
If your modules work, great !

ECC said: 

Who should I believe?

Manufacturer specifics tend to be very trustworthy.

On a similar note, tell me do you believe that the processor you bought i3-7100T

1. is built on the 14nm architecture?

2. that it has a max TDP of 25W
3. that it has a max base freq of 3.4Ghz?
4. that it has a max bus speed of 8GT/s?
5. etc etc etc?

Some of these can be easily tested with the utiliies that are available. Some cannot without investing a whole lot of time, money and effort. There are a
million things that go into building a chip. Testing those would require some effort too right? If you are willing to believe Intel that the i3-7100T has a
bunch of features -- why is it a problem believing that it supports ECC -- when Intel is saying that?

However if you can prove that Intel is wrong then go ahead and sue them for all the money in the world !!!

ECC said: 

Unfortunately, that means that I get (very) old HW, which may have critical disadvantages, like extreme power consumption or bottlenecks.

I think you are over-inflating the power-consumption issue of the old hardware. The old hardware is not going to run at peak TDP all the time. If you
actually look at the difference between a X9 based CPU and the X11 CPU, the TDP difference will not be huge and it will take you years to cover up the
additional upfront cost that you would pay for the X11 based hardware.

But anyway... you have already purchased the hardware -- so we are past that point.

ECC said: 

MZHOU PCIe 2.0 x 1 to SATA III 4-Port- Marvell-Chipset (for boot drives)

A LSI based HBA would have been better !

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