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Difference between DLN-1 & DLN-2

What is the difference between DLN-1 & DLN-2?
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 Wow, this is not an easy question to answer without diagrams and pictures.

DLN-I uses a combustor with two combustion zones, and the lowest emissions only occur in the upper areas of the
turbine load range. The fuel has to be "staged" between nozzles in the two combustion zones at various times during
the load range (except during Primary combustion mode when fuel is only being burned in the Primary combustion
zone).

In DLN-2.0 and DLN-2.6, there is really only one combustion zone, and the fuel is only split between varying
numbers of nozzles. Overall, emissions are lower throughout the load range of the turbine than with DLN-I.

That's about the shortest answer that can be given. The answer to the next question, "Can any GE-design heavy duty
gas turbine be equipped with any DLN combustion system?" is no. F-class units (Frame 6Fs, Frame 7Fs, and Frame
9Fs) can be equipped with DLN-2.n systems; very early F-class units had a variant of the DLN-I combustion system.
Frame 5s, Frame 6Bs, and Frame 7E/EA units can only have DLN-I or DLN-I+ combustion systems.
 DLN-1 Combustion System

The GE DLN-1 combustor is a two-stage premixed combustor designed for use with natural gas fuel and capable of
operation on liquid fuel. This combustion system includes four major components: fuel injection system, liner, venturi
and cap/centerbody assembly.

The GE DLN-1 combustion system operates in four distinct modes, during premixed natural gas or oil fuel operation:
These components form two stages in the combustor. In the premixed mode, the first stage thoroughly mixes the fuel
and air and delivers a uniform, lean, unburned fuel-air mixture to the second stage.

The four different operation Modes are

Primary
Lean-Lean
Secondary &
Premix

1. Primary - Fuel to the primary nozzles only. Flame is in the primary stage only. This mode of operation is used to
ignite, accelerate and operate the machine over low- to mid-loads, up to a pre-selected combustion reference
temperature.

2. Lean-Lean - Fuel to both the primary and secondary nozzles. Flame is in both the primary and secondary stages.
This mode of operation is used for intermediate loads between two pre-selected combustion reference temperatures.

3. Secondary - Fuel to the secondary nozzle only. Flame is in the secondary zone only. This mode is a transition state
between lean-lean and premix modes. This mode is necessary to extinguish the flame in the primary zone, before fuel
is reintroduced into what becomes the primary premixing zone.

4. Premix - Fuel to both primary and secondary nozzles. Flame is in the secondary stage only. This mode of operation
is achieved at and near the combustion reference temperature design point. Optimum emissions are generated in
premix mode.

DLN-2 Combustion System

The DLN-2 combustion system is a single-stage dual-mode combustor that can operate on both gaseous and liquid
fuel. On gas, the combustor operates in a diffusion mode at low loads (< 50% load), and a premixed mode at high
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loads (> 50% load). While the combustor can operate in the diffusion mode across the load range, diluent injection
would be required for NOx abatement. Oil operation on this combustor is in the diffusion mode across the entire load
range, with diluent injection used for NOx control.

Each DLN-2 combustor system has a single burning zone formed by the combustor liner and the face of the cap. In
low emissions operation, 90% of the gas fuel is injected through radial gas injection spokes in the premixer, and
combustion air is mixed with the fuel in tubes surrounding each of the five fuel nozzles. The premixer tubes are part
of the cap assembly. The fuel and air are thoroughly mixed, flow out of the five tubes at high velocity and enter the
burning zone where lean, low-NOx combustion occurs. The vortex breakdown from the swirling flow exiting the
premixers, along with the sudden expansion in the liner, are mechanisms for flame stabilization. The DLN-2 fuel
nozzle/premixer tube arrangement is similar in design and technology to the secondary nozzle/centerbody of a DLN-
1. Five nozzle/premixer tube assemblies are located on the head end of the combustor. A quaternary fuel manifold is
located on the circumference of the combustion casing to bring the remaining fuel flow to casing injection pegs
located radially around the casing. The nozzle has passages for diffusion gas, premixed gas, oil and water. When
mounted on the end cover, the diffusion passages of four of the fuel nozzles are fed from a common manifold, called
the primary, that is built into the end cover. The premixed passages of the same four nozzles are fed from another
internal manifold called the secondary. The pre-mixed passages of the remaining nozzle are supplied by the tertiary
fuel system; the diffusion passage of that nozzle is always purged with compressor discharge air and passes no fuel.

fuel systems of DLN-2 fuel streams are as follows:

1. Primary fuel - fuel gas entering through the diffusion gas holes in the swirler assembly of each of the outboard four
fuel nozzles

2. Secondary fuel - premix fuel gas entering through the gas metering holes in the fuel gas injector spokes of each of
the outboard four fuel nozzles

3. Tertiary fuel - premix fuel gas delivered by the metering holes in the fuel gas injector spokes of the inboard fuel
nozzle

4. The quaternary system - injects a small amount of fuel into the airstream just up-stream from the fuel nozzle
swirlers

The DLN-2 combustion system can operate in several different modes, they are as follows

a. Primary - Fuel only to the primary side of the four fuel nozzles; diffusion flame. Primary mode is used from
ignition to 81% corrected speed.

b. Lean-Lean - Fuel to the primary (diffusion) fuel nozzles and single tertiary (premixing) fuel nozzle. This mode is
used from 81% corrected speed to a pre-selected combustion reference temperature. The percentage of primary fuel
flow is modulated throughout the range of operation as a function of combustion reference temperature. If necessary,
lean-lean mode can be operated throughout the entire load range of the turbine. Selecting “lean-lean base on” locks
out premix operation and enables the machine to be taken to base load in lean-lean.

c. Premix Transfer - Transition state between lean-lean and premix modes. Throughout this mode, the primary and
secondary gas control valves modulate to their final position for the next mode. The premix splitter valve is also
modulated to hold a constant tertiary flow split.

d. Piloted Premix - Fuel is directed to the primary, secondary and tertiary fuel nozzles. This mode exists while
operating with temperature control off as an intermediate mode between lean-lean and premix mode. This mode also
exists as a default mode out of premix mode and, in the event that premix operating is not desired, piloted premix can
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be selected and operated to baseload. Primary, secondary and tertiary fuel split are constant during this mode of
operation.

e. Premix - Fuel is directed to the secondary, tertiary and quaternary fuel passages and premixed flame exists in the
combustor. The minimum load for premixed operation is set by the combustion reference temperature and IGV
position. It typically ranges from 50% with inlet bleed heat on to 65% with inlet bleed heat off. Mode transition from
premix to piloted premix or piloted premix to premix, can occur whenever the combustion reference temperature is
greater than 2200 F/1204 C. Optimum emissions are generated in premix mode.

Tertiary Full Speed No Load (FSNL) - Initiated upon a breaker open event from any load > 12.5%. Fuel is directed to
the tertiary nozzle only and the unit operates in secondary FSNL mode for a minimum of 20 seconds, then transfers to
lean-lean mode. Fuel staging depends on combustion reference temperature and IGV temperature control operation
mode.

Combustion dynamics in gas turbine

what is exactly combustion dynamics in Gas turbine? can someone please explain me about it. as it is very important
for me to understand the combustion philosophy. i am fresher in Combine cycle power plant.
 Combustion dynamics refers to the combustion process inside the combustion "can" and "liner". When fuel is
burned, there is a pressure increase, and depending on the design of the combustor, the fuel nozzles, the liner, etc., the
combustion process can be smooth or it can be subject to pressure oscillations or pulsations. These oscillations or
pulsations, if not minimized, can lead to premature failure of combustion components as well as unstable flame.

When fuel is burning in a combustion turbine, there are very high air flows and this causes turbulence which is both
desirable and undesirable. It's desired to achieve good mixing with the fuel for efficient combustion, but it's not
desirable because it can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations.

Some pressure oscillations or pulsations can be like pressure pulsations in a pipe or vibrations, they can be
"exaggerated" at some points and become very, very destructive. They can be said to have resonance or resonant
frequencies which need to be attentuated or avoided.

It's practically a science all unto itself and for some combustion systems, especially it seems those with lean fuel/air
ratios, they can be very difficult to achieve a balance of stable combustion, stable "flame", low dynamics (pressure
oscillations/pulsations), and low emissions (which is the purpose of lean fuel/air ratios in combustion turbines).
 as i am working on GE 9FA turbine can you please shed some light what GE has done to reduce turbulence as you
said it can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations which might damage the combustion parts (like liner , TP and
combustion sleeve)?
 As the saying goes, "I could tell you; but then I'd have to kill you."

In other words, it's proprietary to GE's DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion system. There are a couple of "knobs"
depending on the type of DLN system; some older systems used to have valves between combustors. Most of it has to
do with liner and fuel nozzle design. And some of it has to do with fuel splits, which are optimized during DLN
tuning.

Some units have "permanent" combustion dynamics monitoring systems which are used to detect possibly damaging
situations and the operators are then notified to take some kind of action. This can be through alarms in the turbine
control panel, or via a phone call from GE's Remote Monitoring & Diagnostics center (for those units with On-site
Monitors (OSMs) and a contractual services agreement or M&D agreement).
 We have CDM system on our HMI screens. I want to learn, what is the critical values for CDM values. 4 or 5 or 16
psi is critical value. Also critical values are same for peak-1, peak-2, peak-3?

Another case: one of our mach&#305;ne has 7psi in peak-1, 20psi in peak-2, 6psi in peak-3. is it a dangerous
situation? But adjacent nozzle's CDM values are very normal like 2 - 1 - 1,5 and something like that.
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 You did not tell which turbine model you have.

On Frame 9FA with DLN2+system dynamics bigger than 2.5psi are considered high and would require strict
monitoring. This is valid for all three frequency ranges. Dynamics higher than 5psi are considered excessively high
and would require corrective action - DLN tuning.

It can happen that single combustion chamber has much higher dynamics than adjacent but provided by you figures:
20psi v.s. 2psi are not normal and really dangerous.
It is highly probable that the root cause of excessive dynamics in one chamber are already damaged components of
the combustion chamber; damaged by excessive, long lasting dynamincs.

Another option is that pressure sensing loop in that chamber is not working properly. In the JB with electronic
components that is installed typically on the side of the turbine compartment (where are landed cables from dynamics
monitoring pressure sensors) there is a testing plug. By replacing the connections from pressure transmitters with this
testing plug it is injected testing signal into direction of CDM monitor - if I am not mistaken testing signal simulating
1psi.
If site has a special testing generator ( I think it is not standard part of the system - site should purchase it separately)
it can be installed near the combustion chamber, replacing the plug from pressure sensor and it can be tested
additionally cable from pressure transmitters to CDM monitor. It is not possible to test easily pressure transmitters.

Combustion dynamics are affected by gas property represented by wobbe index and this in turn depends on gas
composition and gas temperature.
- Do you monitor gas composition? Is it the same as during the last DLN tuning? Even small changes in the gas
composition can provoke big change in dynamics.

- Is gas heated on your site? Do you keep this temperature the same as during the last DLN tuning?

- Are gas valves properly calibrated? Was calibration of the gas valves changed from the last DLN tuning?

- If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens properly? On standard configuration, there
is no continus feedback of this valve position, only limit switches and on system with heated gas, high temperature
damages the I/P converter.
 Thanks for your detailed answer.

I'll try to write a detailed problem description and what happened about this problem. Maybe these information will
be helpful for somebody in the future.

As a beginning,our machine is GE 9FA with DLN2+.

-This sudden increase in these values are occurred in nearly 243Mw and as I indicated before, peak1-2-3 increased to
17-44-19 psi.

-This abnormality occurred after 120 hours of the start.

-During S/D there was no maintenance activities in gas skid, neither on valves nor on software about gas and purge
valves.

-There was not any abnormal situation with the adjacent cans. They were nearly 1-2 psi

-Also there was not any abnormal vibration

-Everything was normal with the continuous emmissioning system.

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-There was no wobbie index alarm, also HHV has not any significant change.

-In our site gas heated up-to 175C, on the date of event there is not any change in the gas temperature.

Now its time to reply your questions:

> - Is gas heated on your site? Do you >keep this temperature the same as during the last DLN tuning?
YES WE ARE HEATING GAS. YES WE KEEP IT AS THE SAME IN OUR LAST DLN TUNING.

> - Are gas valves properly calibrated?

YES GAS VALVES ARE PROPERLY CALIBRATED.

> Was calibration of the gas valves changed from the last DLN tuning?
NO CALIBRATION DID NOT CHANGE AFTER THE LAST DLN TUNING.

> - If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens properly?
YES THAT VALVE OPENS PROPERLY

As a result:
-This situation was discussed with GE urgently and they stated that: This seems not a real reading. It seems like a
thermocouple failure. We can run the unit safely like that.

-After 8 hour from the sudden increase, values decreased as sudden as they increased. They declined to 6-15-1 peak1-
2-3 respectively.

-After 24 Hours from the sudden increase, values were 4-10-1 peak1-2-3 respectively.

 If anybody need any more information or have any question please feel free to
Additional information provided by you suggests, as stated by GE in your message, for defective measuring
instrument/bad connection, not real reading.

You write: 'It seems like a thermocouple failure.' Do you see excessive exhaust spread that could be linked (by swirl)
with the chamber having high dynamics?

I think that dynamics of the magnitude 17...44psi (as you stated) should be possible to hear around the turbine: please
compare dynamics readings (around 7psi) at the instant of the transfer to Premix with the noise near the turbine at this
moment. The conditions are not directly comparable (one can with dynamics vs. 18 cans during the Premix transfer)
but can be used as some reference.

Water Injection System in Gas Turbine

what is water injection system in gas turbine? what is the purpose of system? how it is work?
 Water injection is used to help control NOX emmissions. Water is mixed with the fuel as the fuel enters the
combustion chambers.

There is usually a control valve placed in line with the water injection pump to control the amount of injection.
 It helps lower the combustion temperature for greater efficiency.

There is a NOx steam inject which helps lower the Nox emissions but raises the CO at the same time
 NOx formation is a function of flame temperature; reduce the flame temperature and the formation of NOx is
reduced.
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CO is or can be burned, so reducing flame temperature has somewhat the opposite effect on CO.

Water injection for NOx reduction is used to cool the combustion flame temperature to reduce the formation of NOx
(nitric oxide). It's injected directly into the combustors of most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines, and on a rare few
is mixed with liquid fuel before being introduced into the combustor(s).

BOTH water- and steam injection (which serves the same purpose: to cool the combustion flame temperature to
reduce the formation of NOx) can lead to increased CO emissions if excessive injection occurs. There is a kind of
"balancing" act which takes place when trying to control NOx emissions, whether it be by "wet" means (water- or
steam injection) or dry means (Dry Low NOx, DLN, combustion systems) to find a spot where the NOx and CO are
both lowest.

Some sites use water or steam injection to augment (increase) power output; some use it properly and others don't.
The discussion above refers to the use of water injection for the reduction of NOx emissions.

When water (in liquid or gaseous form) is used for any purpose in a gas turbine, it must be treated just like water that
is used on a typical boiler that produces steam for a steam turbine or some other process to reduce damage to the
boiler components. Treating water is costly, and when water is injected into a gas turbine, it goes up the stack and is
lost in the atmosphere. It cannot be recovered and condensed and reused as in most boiler applications. So, the money
spent to treat that water goes "up the stack" along with the water/steam. And can't be recovered.

Injecting water or steam into a gas turbine combustor can be harmful. It increases the dynamics inside the combustor,
and over time, increased dynamics causes premature wear on hot gas path parts. So, maintenance intervals are usually
decreased (must happen on a more frequent basis) when water or steam is used for NOx reduction. Over-injecting
water or steam can be seriously damaging.

And there is a limit to how much NOx reduction can be achieved with water or steam injection, much higher than is
possible with Dry Low NOx combustion systems. For the same emissions reduction, less water injection is required
than if steam injection is used. (The injected water flashes to steam, which reduces the flame temperature more than
injecting higher temperature steam, which is already a vapor.)

Lastly, many GE-design heavy duty gas turbines with DLN combustion systems use water or steam injection to
reduce NOx emissions when operating on liquid fuel.

I'm not sure about the statement regarding lowering temperature to increase efficiency....
Dear CSA Thank you,
 I have some points please find the answer? we have Gas Turbine GE Nouvo Pingion Fram 5, but i am
inconvenience with water injection system. how we know the NOX in combustion chamber that mean parameter nox,
and i see PI&D there is two line with Hugh rate and other with Low rate. what is the different?

Is this system critical with turbine if we have some problem system (not working )
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 The only way to be certain what the NOx emissions are is to have a continuous emissions monitor that is properly
maintained.

Wet low NOx injection is usually only used in order to lower emissions to a level defined by a permit issued to the
site. Injecting water (or steam) is not cheap, in fact, it's downright expensive.

First, there must be a source of water, and usually that water must be purchased. The water must be treated to be
boiler-quality water, and that is expensive. (In my experience, the water treatment plant of a combustion turbine
equipped with wet low NOx is one of the weakest links in the plant, because it's usually built on the cheap and doesn't
work very well without a lot of maintenance.)
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Once injected to the combustor, that treated water (either in the form of steam or water) is exhausted to atmosphere,
so it's not recuperable. That means, that a constant supply of boiler-quality water must be available for injection.

Lastly, injecting diluent (water or steam) into a combustor increases the dynamic pressure oscillations in the
combustor, which increases the wear on the hot gas path parts (liners; seals; transition pieces; nozzles; etc.). So, no
one would choose to inject water or steam unless it were not required in order to be able to build and operate the
plant.

Yes, wet low NOx injection does have a slightly positive effect on the heat rate, but that still comes at a cost; there is
no such thing as a free lunch in this world. Whether it's the treated water, the raw water, or the hot gas path parts, the
performance increase is not free.

It is a well-accepted fact that NOx formation is proportional to fuel flow-rate, so the wet low NOx flow-rate reference
is based on fuel flow-rate, usually kg (water)/sec-per-kg (fuel)/sec, or kg (water)/kg fuel. When GE-design heavy duty
gas turbines using wet low NOx methods are commissioned, the emissions are monitored and the injection flow-rate
(as a function of fuel flow-rate) is adjusted to make the emissions just slightly below permit level (usually also the
same as the turbine packager guaranteed to the turbine purchaser).

Early emissions monitors were not fast enough to provide closed-loop feedback for controlling wet low NOx injection
rates, so most regulatory agencies agreed to accept that, when demonstrated, a particular wet low NOx injection flow-
rate for a particular fuel flow-rate that the emissions were under the limits of the permit being issued to the
"generator" (emissions generator, not electrical generator) that would be the measure of compliance with the permit.

Now, if the regulatory agency came around and put their own sensor in the stack and found otherwise, well, they
could cite and even fine the site for not meeting the permitted emissions limits. But, they usually don't do that. But,
they have also required that sites have in-situ (on-site) emissions monitors that the sites are responsible for
maintaining (so there's the cost of purchase, installation, and maintenance for these systems). And, if the emissions
monitor isn't working, then usually the site is not allowed to run the turbine either.

I'm <b><i>SO</i></b> sorry to hear that you are inconvenienced by wet low NOx injection. You and just about
every other similarly-equipped site have experienced inconveniences to some degree over time. The older systems
which used motor-operated control valves and differential pressure regulating valves were susceptible to issues if not
understood and maintained properly.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to on the P&ID, but I presume it's a "note" to the system designers, those
who will be building the treated water supply systems and supplying the piping between the Water Injection Skid
(with the pump(s) and control valve(s) and the turbine base about what the expected flow-rates (min and max) would
be so they could design the piping with minimal pressure drop. (Most of the GE-design turbine packagers were not
responsible for the interconnecting piping supply or design.)

In most parts of the world where plants are permitted to allow the production of emissions, the generators (emissions
generators: the turbine(s)) can't run if the emissions control systems aren't running, including the emissions monitors.
You will have to ask your plant management, -ownership, and/or legal representatives if you can operate the turbine--
legally--without water injection.

The turbine would "prefer" to run without wet low NOx (lower combustor dynamic pressures), but a usual condition
of the permit to generate (emissions) states that there are very limited conditions or periods when wet low NOx
injection is not required.

But, hey! Go ahead! The turbine won't blow up if you run it without wet low NOx injection. In fact, the hot gas path
parts will likely last longer due to the decreased dynamic pressures in the combustors. But, depending on where the
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plant is located and what the regulations and laws are there, you might go to jail for running it without wet low NOx
injection. So you might delay your inconvenience, but you can't avoid it. (I would consider jail to be a <b>very</b>
big inconvenience; I imagine you would, as well.)

You can minimize your inconvenience though, by learning and understanding how the system at your site works, and
how to optimize it for the most trouble-free operation.
 Do you have a CEMS (continuous emissions monitoring system)? You mentioned "High rate" and "Low rate."
NOx analyzers for gas turbines usually have High rate (typically 0 to 200 ppmvd) for when water injection is off on
liquid fuel, or below pre-mix mode on gas fuel), and Low rate (typically 0 to 20 ppmvd) when water injection is on or
in pre-mix mode. (ppmvd = parts per million volumetric dry at 15% O2.)

The system is not critical to the operation of the gas turbine, but it is usually critical to the environmental authorities
permitting you to operate the turbine.
 I have some Question?

I see in the PID'S there are two line which injected to fuel nozzle, one line High Flow rate and another one Low Flow
rate.

Does these line work together? or when you use low or high?
 Not being able to see the P&ID for your system it's impossible to say for sure exactly how your system works. But,
based on previous experience with similar systems the explanation below you should be able to use the P&ID and the
sequencing or application code in the Speedtronic, as well as the system descriptions in the Instruction Manual
provided with the unit, as well as the descriptions which might be in the Control Specification drawing, to work out
exactly how your system works. My experience is with systems that have a single pump (or redundant pumps with
only one pump operating at a time in a lead/lag situation), and with a single flow control valve that controls the total
flow to the unit, and then there is a valve downstream of the control valve that can be opened to allow a portion of the
flow to go through a second set of nozzles (the high flow nozzles).

You should be able to work backwards from these two lines on the P&ID to find a valve that will open to allow flow
through the high flow lines when the sequencing in the Speedtronic senses the flow is greater than can be
accommodated in the low flow lines/nozzles.

The presence of a high flow line indicates that the designers of the system felt that the required flow would exceed the
ability of a single set of nozzles (the "low" flow nozzles), so they added the valve and piping and a second set of
nozzles so that as the flow reached the upper limit of the low flow nozzles the valve would open and water would
flow through both the low and high flow nozzles.

On the systems I have worked on with low- and high flow water injection manifolds the valve which opens to allow
flow through the high flow piping/nozzles is a unique valve in that it needs to open and close slowly so as not to
disturb the water injection flow or the turbine operation. Sometimes that valve is called a "shear" valve (I don't know
the derivation of that term, just that that's what some people call it and how it's sometimes described in the
documentation provided with the unit and system).
 what is water injection system in gas turbine? what is the purpose of system?
> how it is work?

It purpose is actually to lower the intake temperature.

GT is a constant volume displacement machine. For a given time it displaces air at a constant sweep volume. For the
given volume of air, its mass is density dependent. Air density, in turn is temperature dependent. The lower the air
temperature the denser it will be. This helps to improve both GT heat rate or thermal efficiency and its maximum
capacity.
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I think it obvious how higher air mass flow rate can improve GT output. Higher air mass flow rate allows the
controller to supply more fuel even though high exhaust temperature limiter remains the same. More fuel input added
means more output can be extracted by the expansion turbine.

It is more difficult to see how water injection can improve GT overall thermal efficiency. Such improvement can be
proven via Carnot cycle efficiency relationship, i.e.<pre>

Carnot cycle efficiency = 1-T_cold/T_hot.

Assuming our GT is designed to operate at T_cold (intake air temp)=300K and T_hot (combustion temp)=1500K,
then its Carnot cycle efficiency (CCE)is,

CCE = (1-T_cold/T_hot)*100
= 80%

Now let us assume T_c= 299 and T_hot remains the same. The new CCE becomes

CCE_new = (1-299/1500)*100

= 80.068%</pre>
CCE is the maximum theoretical efficiency limit that a heat engine can achieve. In the other words it is impossible to
have a heat engine that has overall thermal efficiency that has higher than the value given by the CCE.

Don't get me wrong. It doesn't mean that we can make money for having water injection system. It depends on
economic evaluation between the cost to reduce water temperature and saving in fuel cost due to efficiency
improvement. What I know is the main objective for having water injection is to increase the maximum capacity of
the GT.

The main motivation to get an additional "stretched output" via inlet air cooling of the GT is due to the fact that there
are occasions that the incremental cost to produce 1MWh of electricity can be as high as USD 3000/MWh! The
normal cost could be between says USD 30- 40/MWh. This is true if the incremental demand of 1MW has to be met
by putting a 100MW GT into the system. In order to put a 100MW GT into the system, somebody have to pay for the
cost to keep the GT compressor to rotate at the grid frequency. The power consumption could be as high as 60MW,
although the actual incremental demand is only 1MW. By stretching the GT output the grid operators can reduce the
frequency of having to add additional unit to meet this small incremental load demand.
 This posting is referring to water injection system that is placed at the intake.
 You should clarify what type water injection. The type just described is also called evaporative cooling.

There are 2 other types, involving water injection into the combustors. One is done for power augmentation the other
is done for NOx reduction. Both of these will increase power due to the increased mass flow through the turbine. The
power augmentation type has the water injected downstream of the combustion zone. The NOx control type has the
water injected into the combustion zone, which reduces the peak flame temperature and hence the NOx.
 Inlet air cooling is <b>NOT</b> the same as water for NOx emissions reduction.

 >Inlet air cooling is <b>NOT</b> the

>same as water for NOx emissions
>reduction.

Right. They are not similar. In our place we hear about inlet air cooling more often then NOx emission reduction.
That is why my first impression when I read about water injection system, inlet air cooling will come across my mind.

Sorry about it.

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 In GE 9FA machines to increase the power from 75MW upwards Water Injection is a must. what could be the
reason for this?. At base load if water injection tripping will unload the machine to 75MW. is it limiting the TIT?
 You haven't provided enough information about why water is being injected into the turbine at your site. what fuels
are being burned, what the emissions regulations are for your site, the type of combustors (DLN or conventional),
etc.?
 A GE 9FA is certainly capable of more than 75 MW without water injection UNLESS it is required for NOx
control and you are not allowed to operate without it. At ISO conditions (sea level, 15 degC inlet air temperature)
with DLN gas fuel system it should be capable of at least 200 MW.
 sorry for the incomplete info. 75MW limitation is only for liquid fuel firing (DFO). emission regulation is NOx
20ppm and it's a DLN 2.0 combustor.

if water injection trips at Full load Turbine runs back to 75MW. my wild guess is it is to limit the TIT.
 The runback is not to limit turbine inlet temperature (also known as firing temperature), but to limit peak flame
temperature, which will limit NOx emissions. The requirement is not imposed by GE, but by whatever authority
governs environmental impact at your site.
So, if you need to run at base load without water injection, you need to run on gas fuel. If the reason you are running
on liquid fuel is that gas is not available, they you have a problem. You have to fix the water injection system.
 For non-DLN combustion when firing natural gas, is there a preference for steam rather than water?

Thanks

> And there is a limit to how much NOx reduction can be achieved with water or steam injection,
> much higher than is possible with Dry Low NOx combustion systems. For the same emissions
> reduction, less water injection is required than if steam injection is used. (The injected
> water flashes to steam, which reduces the flame temperature more than injecting higher
> temperature steam, which is already a vapor.)

> Lastly, many GE-design heavy duty gas turbines with DLN combustion systems use water or
> steam injection to reduce NOx emissions when operating on liquid fuel.

> For non-DLN combustion when firing natural gas, is there a

 preference for steam rather than water?

No. Other than for the owner/operator who has to buy the water and then treat it before it's lost to the atmosphere with
the gas turbine exhaust. It takes more steam flow to achieve the same emissions as water injection. In other words, it
takes more water to achieve the steam flow required to make the same emissions reduction than just injecting water.

So, unless the site has extra steam--and the water to produce the steam--the usual "preference" is water.

Oh, and steam injection also increases dynamic pressure pulsations in combustors which increases the wear rate of
combustion parts (nozzles, liners, and transition pieces).
 Please help me to know what differ installation in dry control mode & wet control mode in water injection system
frame 9e, non-DLN.
 please help me to know what differ installation in dry control mode & wet control
> mode in water injection system frame 9e, non-DLN.

Some turbines have different CPD-biased exhaust temperature control parameters based on whether or not water
injection is enabled (wet) or not (dry). I've never personally understood why this was done on some turbines and not
all turbines but I think it might be because at lower NOx guarantee levels the injection ratio was higher--but that's just
my own impression.
 11
Your question isn't clear, though, because as far as the "installation" (the physical equipment installed and required
for water injection) there would be no difference. The only difference would be if the Base Load control parameters
were biased based on whether water injection was enabled (flowing) or not. If you mean something other than what
was described above, you'll need to let us know.

Hope this helps!

By the way, there is another occasional contributor to this forum that goes by the same name. That individual does not
provide much feedback, and when he does, it usually isn't relevant or helpful to us or to others who may be reading
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read these posts (and MANY people do read these posts, now and in the future)--if we get meaningful feedback on
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more information is asked for, the original poster must provide the necessary clarification to get a more meaningful
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So, if you're new here to control.com--Welcome! And, please, have a read of past threads (using the 'Search' feature at
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 Thanks for reply. please read this paragraph and please explain to me. thanks a lot.

"A hot gas path part life impact from steam or water injection is related to the way the turbine is controlled. The
control system on most base load applications reduces firing temperature as water is injected. This counters the effect
to the higher heat transfer on the gas side and results in no impact on bucket life. On some installations, however, the
control system is designed to maintain firing temperature constant with water injection level. This results in additional
unit output but it decreases parts life as previously described. Units controlled in this way are generally in peaking
applications where annual operating hours are low or where operators have determined that reduced parts lives are
justified by the power advantage.

An additional factor associated with water or steam injection relates to higher aerodynamic loading on the turbine
components that results from the injected water increasing the cycle pressure ratio. This additional loading increases
the downstream deflection rate of the second- and third-stage nozzles, which reduces the repair interval for these
components. However, the introduction of GTD-222, a new high creep strength stage two and three nozzle alloy, will
minimize or eliminate this factor. Maintenance factors relating to water injection for units operating on dry control,
range from one, for units equipped with GTD-222 second- and third-stage nozzles, to a factor of 1.5 for units
equipped with FSX 414 nozzles and injecting 5% water. For wet control curve operation, the maintenance factor is
approximately two at 5% water injection."
 Basically the two paragraphs (which are very poorly written, and appear to be taken from some revision of GE
Publication GER-3620) say that water or steam injection reduces hot gas path parts life, but that the control system
can be configured to reduce or minimize one of the areas of concern. However, some owners/operators choose to take
the higher output that can occur with water or steam injection along with the increased parts wear. This
<b>SEEMS</b> to be the difference between wet- and dry control curves--wet control curves being those that
slightly reduce firing temperature to minimize impact to hot gas path parts, and dry control curves being the control
curves that do not reduce firing temperature when water or steam is being injected. <b>But</b> the passages do not
clearly state which control scheme is dry- and which is wet, so the above is just my interpretation of wet- and dry
control curves based on the "information" in the first paragraph. Owners/operators are expected to understand that
maintenance intervals are decreased in exchange for a little more power output when water or steam is being injected
when the unit is being operated with a dry control curve. The first paragraph <b>does NOT</b> describe any
maintenance factors to be associated with wet- or dry control curves.

The second paragraph goes on to say that another negative impact associated with water- or steam injection can be
mitigated by using second- and third-stage nozzles made with a special alloy. Finally it describes the maintenance
 12
factors to be applied to units running at Base Load based on the type of materials used in the second-stage nozzles
and the amount of water injection (I believe it's expressed as a percentage of total mass flow--but, again, the passage
is unclear.)

And, of course, the last two sentences of the second paragraph--which describe the maintenance factors to be applied
to nozzles made of different materials--seems to contradict the first paragraph's description of wet- and dry control
curves. One would think that a wet control curve (if my first presumption was correct) that reduced firing temperature
when water or steam was being injected would result in a <b><i>lower</b></i> maintenance factor regardless of the
material, but that's not what the last two sentences of the second paragraph seem to say.... Unless, they are ONLY
referring to the effects on the second stage nozzles, in which case....

I can understand your confusion--GE documents are generally not well-written and can be contradictory and
confusing. I suspect the reason there are so many revisions of GER-3620 is because of the need to clarify or correct
similar contradictions or mistakes as in the two paragraphs you have copied.

I feel confident in saying that if you contacted GE--which you probably should to get the clarification that is
necessary--that they will have a very sound reason for why they described this the way they did. One thing to always
remember about GE documentation is that it's the LAST thing that's done in the product development life-cycle, and
it's almost never reviewed by peers or product designers for accuracy. And, when it is reviewed by product designers,
or when product designers have input on the documentation, the result is usually very cryptic and contradictory. And
on that note, I rest my case as the passage cited is both cryptic and contradictory.
 good answer of you, but I have a question. why the water inject is involved only to the liquid fuel?
 Most gas turbines these days use DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion systems for gas fuel. Before DLN was
developed, water injection was used for NOx control on gas fuel.

> good answer of you, but I have a question. why the water inject is
> involved only to the liquid fuel?
 Most GE-design F-class heavy duty gas turbines have combustion systems that reduce NOx (Nitric Oxode)
emissions without using water as a diluent to reduce emissions. If the unit also burns liquid fuel, then usually water
(or steam) is necessary to reduce NOx emissions when burning liquid fuel (distillate).

Older combustion systems used water (or steam) injection for NOx emissions reduction when burning either natural
gas or liquid fuel.

Even older combustion systems didn't use any diluent for emissions reduction (emissions reduction wasn't considered
necessary).
 >I'm not sure about the statement regarding lowering
>temperature to increase efficiency....

Water or steam injection for power augmentation, creates more mass flow. Also water injected upstream of the
compressor will be compressed to excess of 700*F before entering combustion wrapper, water vapor.
 GT fuel flow is controlled to maintain a constant firing temperature (Tf). It's not practical to measure the
temperature in the combustors so exhaust gas temp (EGT) is measured and Tf is calculated from that value. EGT
varies as mass flow varies because the temperature delta (dT) across the expansion turbine is different for different
pressure ratios.

The turbine is exhausting to atmospheric pressure so the exhaust pressure is always about the same. When compressor
discharge pressure (PCD) is high, due to increased mass flow as would occur on a day when the ambient temperature
is low, the expansion ratio is greater. When the pressure ratio across the expansion turbine is greater, due to higher
PCD, more expansion cooling occurs, so EGT naturally reduces. Conversely, when PCD is low, there is less
expansion cooling, so EGT goes up.
 13
Therefore, using EGT to maintain a constant Tf means the measured EGT temp must be biased based on PCD.
When PCD is high, fuel flow is reduced to target a lower EGT because that ensures a constant firing temperature. If
this correction to targeted EGT were not made, Tf would go up when PCD goes up because a higher PCD means a
larger pressure ratio, which means more expansion cooling, which means a lower EGT. If the EGT were not biased
the fuel flow would be increased to get to the targeted EGT, which would cause a higher firing temperature.

Water can be added to the GT working fluid mass flow by evaporative cooling (fogging or media type), by wet
compression (spraying water droplets into the compressor), or by water or steam injection into the combustion
chamber (for NOx control and/or power augmentation). When water is added, and if no correction is made to the GT
controls, Tf will naturally decrease.

This reduction in Tf with increased water content is due to the fact that water vapor has a higher specific heat than the
air/fuel mixture, which means there is less expansion cooling, so EGT increases. If the control curve (ETG vs. PCD)
is not changed, the controls think the higher EGT is due to increased fuel flow, so fuel flow will be reduced to get
back to the targeted EGT.

A "wet curve" can be employed to correct for the reduction in Tf that is caused by increased water vapor. This will
increase turbine output because the Tf will be increased back to where it was with dry operation. However, changing
to a wet control curve does not come without cost. The higher specific heat of water vapor means there is more heat
transfer to hot-section components when Tf is the same. Using the dry curve during wet operation compensates for
this additional heat flow so there is no increased maintenance interval with wet operation. However, there is less gain
in output than there would be if the wet curve were used.

Evaporative cooling increases output because it makes the air denser, so mass flow is increased, and because it takes
less work to compress cooler air. Wet compression increases output by reducing the power consumed by the
compressor, in the same way an intercooler reduces compressor work, and because there is a small increase in mass
flow due to the injected water droplets (usually about 2% of the air mass flow). Water or stream injection increase
output because mass flow is increased.

Any water added to the working fluid will reduce NOx production. NOx is mostly caused by oxidization of
atmospheric nitrogen and production increases exponentially with an increase in combustion temperature. Therefore,
most NOx is produced in hot-spots in the combustors. Water vapor quench's hot spots due to its high specific heat.
Adding a given mass of water by inlet fogging or wet compression will reduce NOx by about half as much as adding
the same amount of water by water injection into the combustors. But adding water at the compressor inlet gives a
much larger power boost. Water injected for NOx control can be decreased when water is also introduced into the
compressor.

Combustion chamber type

Please, who can tell me what DLN-1 and DLN-2 mean in gas turbines.
 Drop me an Email to [email protected] (miss the nospam)I have some GE documents on DLN I
& II I can send you, it would be easier than trying to explain.
 Dry Low NOx 1 and 2... term to determine the amount of Nox emmision from gas turbines... which can be
controlled by injecting or spraying water into the inlet path of suction air, ie low pressure compressor side of gas
turbine...

Low nox is explained, when temperature of inlet compressed air is low,,, more volume of air can be compressed and
gas can be burned efficiently to reduce the amount of nox... in the exhaust...
 DLN, or Dry Low NOx, is a means of limiting NOx emissions without using a diluent like water or steam. A Dry
Low NOx combustor on a GE-design heavy-duty gas turbine is a combustor which will produce an extremely lean
fuel-air mixture which will result in lower hot gas temperatures which will result in reduced NOx formation.
 14
There are several versions of Dry Low NOx combustion systems: DLN-I, the first; DLN-2, the second; and DLN-
2.6. There is even a DLN-2+ and DLN-2.0e and a DLN-2.6+ and, I believe and DLN-2.6e.

DLN-I and DLN-2 are fairly similar in that they basically have a "primary" and a "secondary" combustion zone. By
controlling the amount of fuel in each zone (the "split") and whether or not there is flame in the zone when fuel is
present the hot gas temperature can be reduced.

This is a pretty complicated system of gas control valves--and it's all based on empirical data obtained from
combustion laboratory testing and field testing. Why? Because the "firing temperature" inside the combustion can
(not to be comfused with the "firing temperature" which is the temperature at the trailing edge of the first stage
turbine nozzles) is estimated during turbine operation. In other words, it's *not* measured. There are no T/Cs,
pyrometers, laser heat detectors--nothing--to tell the control system the actual "firing" temperature.

The control system calculates a Combustion Temperature Reference: TTRF1. But it's a calculated value, and it's sole
purpose is to serve as a "switch" for changing combustion modes. When the Combustion Reference Temperature
reaches preset limits during loading of the unit, the combustion mode will change. When the Combustion Reference
Temperature reaches preset limits during unloading of the unit, the combustion mode will change.

Why is this necessary? Because, essentially, other than the IGVs there is no way control the air flow through the
turbine--and they are a "crude" method of controlling air flow (which, again, is not monitored on most machines).
There is a lot of empirical data that says that when the IGVs are a certain angle and the fuel flow is approximately
thus-and-such that the fuel-air mixture is a particular value. And that can also be equated to a Combustion Reference
Temperature. So, when the fuel-air mixture reaches a certain point, the combustion modes are changed.

The IGVs can't be used like the butterfly in a carburetor or a fuel injection manifold. The axial compressor is a cruel
beast in that it can surge or stall if certain conditions are inadvertently achieved. If the IGVs could be opened and
closed without adversely affecting the axial compressor operating limits the DLN combustion system would be a
much simpler system. But, everything in life isn't easy, is it?

It's really very difficult to explain with pictures. Contact Bob Johnston for the GE brochures which should be a little
more help. And, write back if you have more questions.

No Flame in Combustion Chamber #3

During the startup of the Gas turbine, It was observed that the only Combustion Chamber #3 did not see the flame
after GT firing sequence. Rest 11 nos. of chambers get light properly.

* Non availability of flame in CC#3 leads to higher exhaust temp. spread and in turn some time leads to trip the
machine in combustion trouble trip.

* However, It was also experienced that if GT was kept in crank mode for longer duration say 30 min or more & then
start the firing sequence , some time CC#3 see the flame at HP rotor speed above 54% and immediately after that
exhaust temp. spread reduced to min. value and then machine smoothly reaches to min. governor speed.

* Maintenance team has simulated and checked the Ignition system, flame scanner, IGV, SRV, GCV and found
working satisfactory.

* Six month back HGPI was carried out & then after only mainly machine startup problem observed.

* The GT nozzles are duel fuel type but running only on Natural gas. Liquid fuel is isolated permanently . However,
Atomizing airline is on and same is connected to the fuel nozzles.
 15
-- Kindly help me to understand why CC#3 don't see flame during firing sequence and only after 54% of HP rotor
speed see the flames.

-- what could be the root cause of this typical problem?

 <b>Something has changed</b> with regard to:

--GCV LVDT calibration

--P2 pressure transmitter calibration is off

--Gas fuel nozzle orifice sizes

--Atomizing air flow during start-up/firing/acceleration

--Cross-fire tube issue between CC#3 and CC#4 or CC#5

--Axial compressor air flow

Failure to ignite one or more combustors during firing and acceleration is not uncommon, and it's also not uncommon
for flame to be lost in one or more combustion chambers after fuel is cut back from firing FSR to warm-up FSR. And,
flame is usually established in the combustion chambers at some point during acceleration. This can happen when
there is too little fuel, or too much air (flowing through the axial compressor), and/or the nozzle orifices of the CC#3
(in your case) gas fuel nozzle are smaller than the other fuel nozzle orifices, and/or there is too much atomizing air
flowing during firing/acceleration, and/or there is a cross-fire tube problem.

Fuel nozzle orifices for all fuel nozzles are NEVER exactly the same; usually, fuel nozzles with tested flow-rates
within a certain percentage of each other (say, 10% or 5%--the lower the percentage, the better) are chosen to be
installed in a machine as a set. If a particular nozzle flows much less than the others in the set, then that can be a
cause.

It's not uncommon for atomizing air line orifices to not be re-installed or to be installed improperly after a
maintenance outage.

If the SRV/GCV were refurbished it's possible the same internal components weren't used, or they weren't refurbished
to OEM specifications. Also, if the LVDTs of the GCV weren't calibrated properly that could cause less fuel to flow
into the combustion chambers than before the maintenance outage.

If the P2 pressure transmitter is not calibrated properly and is not allowing the proper P2 pressure during firing and
acceleration (P2 pressure lower than specification) then this can cause the kind of problem you are describing.

If the IGV LVDTs are not calibrated properly, this can also cause too much air to be flowing during firing and
acceleration.

Cross-fire tube alignment is also a possible cause, though not very likely. Usually, it would take both cross-fire tubes
to be misaligned, or the combustion liner would have be improperly installed (very difficult to do) for a sufficient
amount of fuel not to be ignited by flows through one or the other cross-fire tube. So, while this is not likely--it's also
not impossible, especially in combination with one or more other possible causes.

It's also not uncommon for a combination of problems (excessive fuel nozzle flow-rate differences and poor P2
pressure transmitter calibration and bad GCV LVDT calibration, for example) to occur and cause a problem such as
you are describing. So, there may be more than one problem.
 16
The reason you are seeing CC#3 "lighting off" at higher speeds is because the fuel flow to that combustion
chamber is finally high enough to establish the necessary concentration of fuel to be ignited by the hot gas flows
through the cross-fire tubes.

As to the issue of tripping on high exhaust temperature spread during start-up, that's usually blocked from happening
simply because it's not uncommon (though it is undesirable) for one combustion chamber to lose flame or fail to fire
during starting and for it to later "light off" at some point during acceleration--just as you have described. So, rather
than trip the unit on high spread during starting, the combustion monitor is blocked until the unit is at or near rated
speed (usually).

If there is a higher than normal exhaust temperature spread when you reach rated speed/load, then it could be that
CC#3 has a serious fuel nozzle orifice problem--including a blockage of one or more orifice openings. Small rocks,
weld slag, scarf (drill twistings), etc., have been found in fuel nozzles after maintenance outages (sad, but true). So,
it's probably a wise idea to pull the fuel nozzle of CC#3 and examine the gas fuel nozzle orifices for any blockage(s).

Please write back to tell us how you resolve the problem!

 I don't have direct experience with Gas Turbines, but I can provide some suggestions.

If the gas nozzles are clear (in the generator), check the gas lines going to the generator and make sure they're clear
and unobstructed. Check the signal to the gas control valve and make sure it's working as expected. Also, check to
make sure you're getting enough air (oxygen) into that chamber. And lastly, check that the exhaust port/way/area is
free of obstructions.

It sounds like that the generator has to create a big enough pressure difference between the rotor chamber and CC3 in
order to get the chamber to fire, which suggests to me an obstruction somewhere, whether it's controller driven or a
physical obstruction.
Thank you very much for the reply.
 We have checked the fuel nozzles orifice and found no blockages. Moreover we have tried to swap the fuel nozzle
but result is same- No flame in CC#3.

The fuel gas nozzles and Liners were installed as per OEM suggested and supplied part No.

No maintenance activity was carried GCV/SRV in past. From the startup trend it is noticed that GCV/SRV ramping
functioning is fine as per machine demand/sequence.

IGV has two LVDTs and system is not receiving alarm like tracking error or LVDT fault.
Also, possibility of too much air to be flowing during firing and acceleration will have impact on all fuel nozzles
CC#1 to C#12,but in our case only CC#3 is getting effected.

I agree that Cross-fire tube and combustion liner alignment may be having issue but our survey crew confirm that
they have installed Cross-fire tube and combustion liner as per OEM guideline and details.

We will check P2 pressure transmitter calibration in next available opportunity. However, All CC gets flame during
startup except CC#3 so, i really doubt that this may be the cause for the flameout.if possible kindly explain the in
detail.

GCV/SRV/IGV/NGV stroke checked was done in presence of GE representative and found satisfactory.

Hope to get your further advice and other technical checks to resolve and understand the specific CC#3 problem.
 Again, something has changed.
 17
P2 pressure is the "push" that gets gas to flow through the GCV. If the actual P2 pressure is lower than the
Speedtronic turbine control panel believes the P2 pressure is, then that could cause less gas to flow through the GCV.

So, you found no blockages in the fuel nozzle orifices. You swapped the fuel nozzle from CC#3 with another CC and
the problem stayed in CC#3. That would suggest a problem with the flame detector in CC#3, a problem with the
wiring between the flame detector in CC#3 and the Speedtronic turbine control panel, or a problem with the
Speedtronic turbine control panel the flame detector is connected to.

OR, it would suggest a problem with another aspect of the gas fuel supply piping and/or the atomizing air piping
supplying CC#3. I have seen rags and wads of duct tape stuck in flanges. I have seen Flexitallic gaskets that have
unwound in flanges that have created a blockage upstream of fuel nozzles.

You HAVE NOT mentioned any high exhaust temperature spread during normal operation--higher than would
otherwise be expected after a maintenance outage. If the spread at rated speeds is higher than would normally be
expected after a maintenance outage that would indicate a problem with a particular combustion liner or transition
piece or fuel supply to that combustion chamber.

I have very little faith that most people actually perform LVDT calibrations correctly. Mostly, they just sit in front of
the HMI and tell the valve to go to a particular position and if the LVDT feedback is close to the reference they call it,
"GE! Good Enough!" If the actual position is not measured and compared to the LVDT feedback and if the two
values are not very close to each other, then the LVDT calibration is, in fact, not performed or verified correctly. Most
OEM personnel don't perform the verification of actual, physical position versus LVDT feedback--so most site
technicians don't think it's necessary either. Just goes to show how poorly trained the OEM technicians are--and how
little they actually understand what an LVDT calibration is all about and how it works and what constitutes a
successful LVDT calibration.

Most people think they are "calibrating" the servo-valve, or the fuel valve, or the IGVs--they are <b>NOT</b>--they
are calibrating the LVDT feedback. (That's why we get so many questions about calibrating the LFBV (Liquid Fuel
Bypass Valves) of many Frame 5s and Frame 6Bs which don't have LVDTS!!! It's not possible to calibrate a servo-
valve with a Speedtronic panel, or a valve or IGVs; it's only possible to calibrate the LVDT position feedback!!!)

So, again: <b>Something has changed.</b>

And, again, it's not uncommon for flame to be lost during warm-up and acceleration and to be established during
higher speeds. The Combustion Monitor is blocked during acceleration (and even shutdown) for this reason. It's not
desirable, but it's not uncommon.

If the P2 pressure transmitter calibration is good, then it's possible that the Firing and/or Warm-up FSRs need to be
increased slightly from their present values. It's possible that the current values are borderline to begin with, and
worked well when the axial compressor wasn't so clean and the past IGV LVDT calibrations (measuring IGV LVDTs
can be very time-consuming and frustrating if one doesn't know how to do it properly and doesn't have the proper
instrumentation--so it's quite frequently NOT DONE; people just use the indicator on the compressor case--which the
laborers use as they would use a step on a ladder...).

Please write back to let us know how you resolve the problem. If you write back for more assistance, provide the
requested information about exhaust temperature spreads during acceleration and at rated speeds prior to the outage
and now, after the outage.

Combustion dynamics in gas turbine

 What is exactly combustion dynamics in Gas turbine? can someone please explain me about it. as it is very
important for me to understand the combustion philosophy. i am fresher in Combine cycle power plant.
 18
 Combustion dynamics refers to the combustion process inside the combustion "can" and "liner". When fuel is
burned, there is a pressure increase, and depending on the design of the combustor, the fuel nozzles, the liner, etc.,
the combustion process can be smooth or it can be subject to pressure oscillations or pulsations. These oscillations or
pulsations, if not minimized, can lead to premature failure of combustion components as well as unstable flame.

When fuel is burning in a combustion turbine, there are very high air flows and this causes turbulence which is both
desirable and undesirable. It's desired to achieve good mixing with the fuel for efficient combustion, but it's not
desirable because it can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations.

Some pressure oscillations or pulsations can be like pressure pulsations in a pipe or vibrations, they can be
"exaggerated" at some points and become very, very destructive. They can be said to have resonance or resonant
frequencies which need to be attentuated or avoided.

It's practically a science all unto itself and for some combustion systems, especially it seems those with lean fuel/air
ratios, they can be very difficult to achieve a balance of stable combustion, stable "flame", low dynamics (pressure
oscillations/pulsations), and low emissions (which is the purpose of lean fuel/air ratios in combustion turbines).
 Thanks for quick reply.
as i am working on GE 9FA turbine can you please shed some light what GE has done to reduce turbulence as you
said it can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations which might damage the combustion parts (like liner , TP and
combustion sleeve)?
 As the saying goes, "I could tell you; but then I'd have to kill you."

In other words, it's proprietary to GE's DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion system. There are a couple of "knobs"
depending on the type of DLN system; some older systems used to have valves between combustors. Most of it has to
do with liner and fuel nozzle design. And some of it has to do with fuel splits, which are optimized during DLN
tuning.

Some units have "permanent" combustion dynamics monitoring systems which are used to detect possibly damaging
situations and the operators are then notified to take some kind of action. This can be through alarms in the turbine
control panel, or via a phone call from GE's Remote Monitoring & Diagnostics center (for those units with On-site
Monitors (OSMs) and a contractual services agreement or M&D agreement).
 We have CDM system on our HMI screens. I want to learn, what is the critical values for CDM values. 4 or 5 or 16
psi is critical value. Also critical values are same for peak-1, peak-2, peak-3?

Another case: one of our mach&#305;ne has 7psi in peak-1, 20psi in peak-2, 6psi in peak-3. is it a dangerous
situation? But adjacent nozzle's CDM values are very normal like 2 - 1 - 1,5 and something like that.

 You did not tell which turbine model you have.

On Frame 9FA with DLN2+system dynamics bigger than 2.5psi are considered high and would require strict
monitoring. This is valid for all three frequency ranges. Dynamics higher than 5psi are considered excessively high
and would require corrective action - DLN tuning.

It can happen that single combustion chamber has much higher dynamics than adjacent but provided by you figures:
20psi v.s. 2psi are not normal and really dangerous.
It is highly probable that the root cause of excessive dynamics in one chamber are already damaged components of
the combustion chamber; damaged by excessive, long lasting dynamincs.

Another option is that pressure sensing loop in that chamber is not working properly. In the JB with electronic
components that is installed typically on the side of the turbine compartment (where are landed cables from dynamics
monitoring pressure sensors) there is a testing plug. By replacing the connections from pressure transmitters with this
 19
testing plug it is injected testing signal into direction of CDM monitor - if I am not mistaken testing signal
simulating 1psi.
If site has a special testing generator ( I think it is not standard part of the system - site should purchase it separately)
it can be installed near the combustion chamber, replacing the plug from pressure sensor and it can be tested
additionally cable from pressure transmitters to CDM monitor. It is not possible to test easily pressure transmitters.

Combustion dynamics are affected by gas property represented by wobbe index and this in turn depends on gas
composition and gas temperature.
- Do you monitor gas composition? Is it the same as during the last DLN tuning? Even small changes in the gas
composition can provoke big change in dynamics.

- Is gas heated on your site? Do you keep this temperature the same as during the last DLN tuning?

- Are gas valves properly calibrated? Was calibration of the gas valves changed from the last DLN tuning?

- If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens properly? On standard configuration, there
is no continus feedback of this valve position, only limit switches and on system with heated gas, high temperature
damages the I/P converter.
 Thanks for your detailed answer.

I'll try to write a detailed problem description and what happened about this problem. Maybe these information will
be helpful for somebody in the future.

As a beginning,our machine is GE 9FA with DLN2+.

-This sudden increase in these values are occurred in nearly 243Mw and as I indicated before, peak1-2-3 increased to
17-44-19 psi.

-This abnormality occurred after 120 hours of the start.

-During S/D there was no maintenance activities in gas skid, neither on valves nor on software about gas and purge
valves.

-There was not any abnormal situation with the adjacent cans. They were nearly 1-2 psi

-Also there was not any abnormal vibration

-Everything was normal with the continuous emmissioning system.

-There was no wobbie index alarm, also HHV has not any significant change.

-In our site gas heated up-to 175C, on the date of event there is not any change in the gas temperature.

Now its time to reply your questions:

> - Is gas heated on your site? Do you >keep this temperature the same as during the last DLN tuning?
YES WE ARE HEATING GAS. YES WE KEEP IT AS THE SAME IN OUR LAST DLN TUNING.

> - Are gas valves properly calibrated?

YES GAS VALVES ARE PROPERLY CALIBRATED.

> Was calibration of the gas valves changed from the last DLN tuning?
 20
NO CALIBRATION DID NOT CHANGE AFTER THE LAST DLN TUNING.

> - If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens properly?
YES THAT VALVE OPENS PROPERLY

As a result:
-This situation was discussed with GE urgently and they stated that: This seems not a real reading. It seems like a
thermocouple failure. We can run the unit safely like that.

-After 8 hour from the sudden increase, values decreased as sudden as they increased. They declined to 6-15-1 peak1-
2-3 respectively.

-After 24 Hours from the sudden increase, values were 4-10-1 peak1-2-3 respectively.

If anybody need any more information or have any question please feel free to contact with me.
 Additional information provided by you suggests, as stated by GE in your message, for defective measuring
instrument/bad connection, not real reading.

You write: 'It seems like a thermocouple failure.' Do you see excessive exhaust spread that could be linked (by swirl)
with the chamber having high dynamics?

I think that dynamics of the magnitude 17...44psi (as you stated) should be possible to hear around the turbine: please
compare dynamics readings (around 7psi) at the instant of the transfer to Premix with the noise near the turbine at this
moment. The conditions are not directly comparable (one can with dynamics vs. 18 cans during the Premix transfer)
but can be used as some reference.

Swirl Angle Software for GE

I HAVE swirl angle software for GE FRAME 9E NON-DLN TYPE. can use this software for GE FRAME 9E DLN?
BECAUSE when going just to transfer mode, we have spread around 165 deg-c. Is related to the transfer nozzles.
 You could certainly try. Troubleshooting with a swirl angle chart is always iffy at best. It's just a tool for
estimating which combustor(s) might be experiencing a fuel flow problem or a combustion hardware problem--it's not
an exact tool.

If you're only having the spread problem when transferring from Lean-Lean to Premix, then, yes, it could be the
transfer nozzles/passages.
 What’s the meaning of passage? please explain.

 The transfer pipes and internal "holes" of the secondary fuel nozzles can be called "passages" because they pass
gas (no pun intended).
 Why you say secondary fuel nozzles? we have spread just during transfer. we haven't any spread In primary ans
lean lean mode.
Because, the transfer passages/nozzles are part of the secondary fuel nozzles.
 If the DLN-I combustion system on the turbine at your site uses a Gas Transfer Valve, if you follow the fuel line
from the Gas Transfer Valve to the manifold around the axial compressor casing and then from the flexible hoses
from that manifold to the fuel nozzles, you will see that the transfer nozzles are integral to the secondary fuel nozzle.

When transferring from Lean-Lean to Premix, ALL of the fuel must flow into the secondary combustion zone. The
only way that can happen is if the fuel flows through the secondary fuel nozzles. Some DLN-I combustion systems
did NOT use Gas Transfer Valves and all of the fuel was "forced" through the secondary fuel nozzle passages and
orifices. This causes a phenomenon known as "screech" during the combustion mode transfer and also increases the
dynamic pressure pulsations in the combustors greatly. While it works, it's not really good for the combustion
hardware.
 21

So, GE and its packagers, went back to DLN-I systems with Gas Transfer Valves. The purpose of the gas transfer
system is to have another set of nozzle orifices--on the secondary fuel nozzles--through which fuel can flow during
the Lean-Lean to Premix combustion mode transfer. This reduces the dynamic pressure pulsations inside the
combustors and is much easier on the combustion hardware. It does, however, increase the complexity of the DLN-I
system--because it requires a gas transfer valve and hydraulic actuator and electro-hydraulic servo-valve and LVDTs,
and purge valves and limit switches, and more piping and manifolds and flexible hoses.

Gas fuel only flows through the transfer nozzles and passages (and the gas transfer valve) during a Lean-Lean to
Premix transfer. At all other times, the gas transfer valve is closed, and purge air (CPD) is flowing through the
transfer manifold, transfer flexible hoses, and the transfer passages and nozzles--which are integral to the secondary
fuel nozzles. Again, because during a Lean-Lean to Premix transfer ALL of the fuel has to flow into the secondary
combustion zone--and the only way it can do that is through the secondary fuel nozzles, including the transfer
passages and -nozzles of the secondary fuel nozzles.

Please have a look at the P&IDs for the Gas Fuel System (GE usually calls these drawings the "Schematic Piping"
drawings--everyone else in the world calls them P&IDs). They should clearly show how fuel passes through the
system. As an operator or technician or an owner or a manager of a power plant with a GE-design heavy duty gas
turbine you should be very familiar with the P&Ids for the systems on the turbine.

And, if--as it seems--you are having DLN-I problems, you should really, at a minimum, be referring to the Gas Fuel
and Fuel Purge P&IDs to become as knowledgeable as possible about the systems in use at your plant. They are not
that difficult to understand, though, at first glance they may seem to be. There is usually another document provided
with the drawings and parts lists which is called the "Piping Symbols" drawing which can be used to help understand
the symbols on the drawings. But, I've seen people at other sites use the Internet to find out what the various symbols
mean before they became aware of the other documentation available in the manuals provided with the turbine and
auxiliaries.

Basic Instrumentation in 6FA with MARK V

I have a good experience (6+ years in Instrumentation) in thermal power plant, and now i got a chance to work in
6FA machine with MARK V control system. I need clear guidance to under the system in better way.

Need more clarity about instruments connectivity.

 Tell us what have you learned from studying the P&IDs?

Have you read the System Descriptions in the Operations & Service Manuals provided with the turbine and
auxiliaries? There are individual sections which correspond to each of the P&IDs.

The turbine control system includes the Mark V and the field devices and instruments shown on the P&IDs. One can't
work without the other.

The Mark V is the turbine governor (fuel control, which ultimately controls speed AND limits exhaust temperature to
protect the combustors, turbine nozzles, turbine blades (GE calls them blades; many other manufacturers call them
buckets), and exhaust components (diffuser, and HRSG (Heat Recovery Steam Generator; "boiler"), and it is also the
sequencer that controls the operation of the auxiliaries (L.O. Pumps; Hydraulic Pump(s); cooldown equipment
(hydraulic ratchet or turning gear); vent fans; etc.).

To do the above, the Mark V needs inputs from speed pick-ups (passive, or inductive, self-powered speed pick-ups),
thermocouples, often RTDs (Resistance Temperature Devices), vibration pick-ups ("seismic" or velocity pick-ups,
and sometimes proximity pick-ups or even accelerometer pick-ups, pressure switches, temperature switches, pressure
transmitterers, differential pressure transducers, sometimes temperature transmitters, sometimes level switches, limit
switches, position feedback devices (usually LVDTs (Linear Variable Differential Transducers), and so on. The Mark
 22
V also drives outputs including solenoids (most often 125 VDC solenoids), motor starters (to start and stop motors
of pumps and fans and the like), sometimes indicating lights, sometimes motor-operated valves and controls,
sometimes valve positioners (such as Inlet Bleed Heat control valve actuators positioners), and electro-hydraulic
servo-valves (those mysterious, magical and often (incorrectly) blamed valve control devices that convert an electrical
signal to a device position (such as for fuel control valves or IGVs (Inlet Guide Vanes).

The Mark V often provides analog and discrete (contact closure/opening) signals to other control systems including
generator excitation systems (sometimes called AVRs (Automatic Voltage Regulators), and plant control systems,
often called DCS (Distributed Control Systems), or BOP, Balance-of-Plant control systems. Sometimes the Mark V
tells a natural gas compressor when to start and stop, or liquid fuel forwarding systems when to start and stop.

MOST all of these input and output devices are shown on the P&IDs--the major exceptions being the motor starters
and generator protection and generator interface devices, and interface signals to/from other control systems.

The operator monitors turbine operations, sends commands to and manages alarms (Process- and Diagnostic Alarms)
of a Mark V and auxiliaries using an operator interface, which is a IBM-compatible PC running either MS-DOS and a
proprietary disk-based operating system called IDOS or some version of MS-Windows and a graphical user interface
(usually a program called CIMPLICITY, or the newer version called PROFICY Machine Edition) and a proprietary
service called TCI (Turbine Control Interface). The thing to recognize about most all operator interfaces (often called
HMIs (Human-Machine Interfaces) is that they do NO turbine protection or control. (There are some exceptions to
this rule, but no critical control or protection is accomplished by the operator interface--that is, the control which
might be done by some special bit of programming on the HMI only automates something which could be or is
typically done by the human operator monitoring parameters and sending commands to the Mark V.) All protection
functions of the turbine and auxiliaries are performed in the Mark V (some are performed by generator relaying and
protection which send signals to the Mark V to indicate what is operating to protect the turbine, and sometimes even
to trip the turbine, or initiate an automatic shutdown).

There are conditions which must be satisfied to be able to initiate a START of the turbine; these are called Start-
Checks, or Start-Check Permissives. For EVERY condition which prevents a START (with one exception!) there is or
should be a Process Alarm to indicate what condition is not satisfied. (The single start-check permissive which is
NOT alarmed is when OFF mode is selected. To START a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine, some operating mode
OTHER THAN OFF must be selected and active--so in other words, CRANK, or FIRE, or AUTO or some remote
mode (REMOTE, or SERIAL REMOTE or CABLE REMOTE, etc.) must be selected, which means the operator is
intending to initiate a unit START. OFF mode means the operator is NOT intending to initiate a START, and so for
this reason if OFF is selected and active it is NOT an alarmed start-check permissive). There should be a display on
the operator interface which lists all of the various Start-Check Permissives and the status of every permissive--
including whether or not OFF is selected.

Once a START is possible and initiated and the Auxiliary L.O. Pump is running and supplying the minimum
allowable pressure to the turbine and generator bearings and the unit starts accelerating from zero speed there are
various speed levels which are detected. The ANSI device number for a speed level is 14, and the most important
speed levels are usually L14HR, L14HM, L14HA and L14HS. (The L in the first position of most every signal name
(but not all signal names!--more on that later) means it is a logic signal, it is either a "1" or a "0", True or False. When
the turbine is at rest (zero speed), speed level L14HR is a logic "1" (True), and all other speed levels are a logic "0"
(False). As the unit breaks aways from zero speed L14HR changes to a logic "0" (False). As the unit accelerates
above minimum firing speed, L14HM becomes a logic "1" (True). As the unit accelerates above 50- or 60% speed (it
varies with different sized of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines) the L14HA changes to a logic "1" (True) (and
L14HM remains a logic "1" (True)). And, as the unit nears synchronous speed (usually at approximately 95% speed)
L14HS becomes a logic "1" (True) (and L14HM and L14HA remain logic "1" (True)).

All of these speed signals cause various things to happen in the programming of the Mark V (called the Control
Sequence Program, or the CSP). Some pumps and fans may be started when the unit breaks away from zero speed
 23
(when L14HR goes to a logic "0" (False)). For example, in order to admit fuel to the turbine the turbine speed must
be above the L14HM speed level, which also usually starts the turbine "vent" (or purge) timer. As the unit accelerates
to L14HA speed level usually the starting means is de-energized (for most non-F-class machines, but not usually for
6FA machines....). And, as the unit reaches the L14HS speed level some auxiliary motors are either stopped or started,
and this is also a major permissive for being able to synchronize the generator to provide electrical power to the plant
and/or grid.

When the unit reaches Full Speed-No Load (100% rated speed; also called synchronous speed), the Mark V is in
Droop Speed Control Mode (automatically), and remains in Droop Speed Control Mode under normal operating
circumstances until the unit reaches Base Load (CPR-biased exhaust temperature control). There is a display on the
operator interface, the "FSR Display" (FSR means Fuel Stroke Reference, or fuel control valve position reference)
which shows all of the various FSRs which are all simutaneously being calculated). They all feed into what's called a
Minimum Select function, and the lowest value is the one that's actually being used to control fuel flow-rate into the
turbine combustors. The various FSRs are Manual Control FSR, Acceleration Control FSR (used primarily during
starting and acceleration to Full Speed-No Load (FSNL)), Droop Speed Control FSR, and Temperature Control FSR.
(There is a value called Minimum FSR, but it is only used to set the absolute minimum FSR during transient
conditions, including starting and shutdown, and load rejections, etc.)

The governor function of the Mark V is what controls the fuel flow-rate, and the maximum fuel flow-rate can never
exceed a certain gas turbine exhaust temperature--or if it does by more than 40 deg F then the turbine will be tripped.

A turbine trip means some condition has been detected which requires immediate shut-off of the fuel flow-rate to the
turbine. This in turns results in opening of the generator breaker (when synchronized to a grid and producing
electrical power), and the unit then coasts down to zero speed and cooldown.

A trip is VERY different from a shutdown, which is an orderly reduction of load, opening of the generator breaker,
and a fired shutdown of the unit until finally fuel flow is shut off (usually at about 20% speed if the unit is running on
natural gas fuel; often higher if it is running on liquid fuel). Don't say "trip" when you mean "shutdown", and vice
versa. They mean two entirely different things, and can cause a great deal of confusion when talking to people
knowledgeable about GE-design heavy duty gas turbine operation.

Now, many GE-design 6FA heavy duty gas turbines have what are called DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion systems.
Some don't, and some even have what are called MNQC (Multi-Nozzle Quiet Combustors). Those without DLN
combustors have conventional combustors, which means all of the fuel burns in a diffusion flame inside each
combustor. It's simple, BUT it also produces a LOT of harmful exhaust emissions--hence the reason for DLN
combustor. Why DLN? Well, because prior to DLN combustion systems the only way to reduce exhaust emissions
was to inject water or steam into the combustor--and that water or steam was then exhausted to the atmosphere
through the exhaust stack, lost and gone forever to the environment. And the water or steam has to be treated to make
it boiler-quality water, which is not cheap--and often the water itself is costly, too. So, DLN combustion systems were
developed--and they require a good deal of control interaction.

Probably foremost in DLN controls is IGV (Inlet Guide Vane) control. This is similar to the throttle body of a
carburetor or fuel injection system in an automobile or lorry (diesel truck) in that the IGVs control (limit) the air flow
into the turbine, which in turns affects how much fuel can be burned and in a DLN system the mode of combustion.
(DLN combustion systems have various modes which are also controlled by the Mark V based on a calculated
temperature value, TTRF or TTRF1--the Turbine Temperature Reference, Firing, or the Firing Temperature.

[Have you seen how the characters in GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control systems all have meaning? The one I
didn't explain previously was the "H" in L14Hx, which stands for the High-pressure shaft of a turbine (some turbines
may have a second shaft, called the LP, or low-pressure shaft; 6FAs only have a single shaft, the high-pressure (HP)
shaft). And the L in the first position of a signal name almost always means the signal is a logic signal (it can only be
a logic "1" or a logic "0", and, if written correctly (and most signals are written correctly) the signal name tells you
 24
when the signal will be a logic "1". For example, L14HR is a logic "1" when the unit is at rest (zero speed).
L14HM is a logic "1" when the unit is above minimum firing speed. L14HS is a logic "w" when the unit is near or at
synchronous speed. And, the 14 indicates a speed level. A 63 indicates a signal from a pressure switch. A 33 indicates
a signal from a limit switch. And so on. You can find lists of ANSI device numbers by using your preferred World
Wide Web search engine. You need to have one, and commit the device numbers to memory since they are key to
understanding the signals in the CSP (Control Sequence Program). And, signals other than logic signals, well, as with
FSR and TTRF/TTRF1, well they also have meaning too. For example, CPD means Compressor Pressure, Discharge,
or the Axial Compressor Discharge Pressure. TTXD1 means Turbine Temperature eXhaust Discharge #1, or the #1
thermocuple signal from the gas turbine exhaust. And so on. There is a file on the operator called LONGNAME.DAT,
which has most of the signal name descriptions for most of the signals in the CSP. And they are mostly correct--but
beware, <i><b>not every signal name description in LONGNAME.DAT is 100% correct.</b></i> Use it a guide, but
remember it can sometimes (though not often) be misleading. But, it's the best place to start. LONGNAME.DAT is a
basic, ASCII text file. It can be formatted and printed using MS-Word or any ASCII text editor. You should have
your own printed copy of it, and make notes on it when you find any errors.]

There have been MANY threads on control.com in the past about how to "read" (interpret) GE-design heavy duty gas
turbine programs (CSPs, or applicaton code for Mark VI and Mark VIe). The basic premise of any GE-design heavy
duty gas turbine control logic and sequencing (EXCEPT Mark II SpeedTronic control systems!) is relay-ladder
diagram style logic. If you search on control.com for "L4" you will find a series of threads which explain in some
detail how to interpret relay ladder diagram rungs and GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control signal names.

The last thing I want to mention about GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control is: Alarm Management. The Mark
IV has the capability to have more than 500 Process Alarms (alarms related to the turbine, auxiliaries, and generator)
and more than a thousand Diagnostic Alarms (alarms related to the "health" of the Mark V hardware and any software
issues the hardware might be having). For this reason, and because many turbines were not commissioned properly,
the Mark V (or Mark VI or Mark VIe, as the case may be) can be, and is, thought of a giant alarm annunciator, and
that it is normal and accepted practice that many nuisance and erroneous alarms are continually being annunciated by
the Mark V (or Mark VI or Mark VIe, as the case may be). This is simply <b>NOT TRUE.</b> Proper
commissioning and proper maintenance and proper Alarm Management should only result in true alarms being
annunciated by the Mark V (or Mark VI or Mark VIe, as the case may be). It <b>IS</b> possible for any Mark*
control system to be properly configured and maintained so that only meaningful and true alarms are annunciated. As
a C&I (or I&C) technician, it should be the goal to work to get the Mark* configured so that ONLY meaningful
alarms are annunciated when they are actual true alarm conditions. ONLY by doing this will the operators, their
supervisors and other control technicians be able to properly troublehsoot and maintain a GE-design heavy duty gas
turbine with a Mark* control system.

Alarm Logs--printed or electronic--are also CRITICAL to troubleshooting a GE-design heavy duty turbine. They are
often overlooked until the unit trips (usually for an "unknown" reason--though there is RARELY a true unknown
turbine trip, because, as with Start-Check Permissive EVERY condition that results in a turbine trip should have a
Process Alarm associated with it), and then without a printed or electronic list of alarms prior to and when the turbine
tripped it is virtually impossible to say for sure what happened, and when it happened. And, yet many plants do not
maintain the Alarm Printers (simple, dot matrix printers) and do not know how to access the electronic alarm logs
(only available on MS-Windows-based operator interfaces).

Alarm Management involves these very important functions:

Silence
Acknowledge
Resolve
Reset
 25
Every alarm (even Diagnostic Alarms) should result in the sounding of an audible alarm horn. (Because of the
problem with commissioning and configuration and maintenance of many Mark V (or Mark VI or Mark VIe, as the
case may be) control systems, the audible alarm horn has been diasbled). The purpose of the audible alarm horn is to
get the operator's attention. Once that's done, the operator needs to silence the audible alarm horn.

The next thing the operator needs to do is to read the alarm text message. Once the operator has read the message and
has decided what action to take, the alarm needs to be acknowledged--meaning that the operator has read the message
and is deciding on the action to take to resolve the alarm message.

Next, the operator needs to take appropriate action. If that means the unit needs to be unloaded to some lower load
level, then that's what needs to be done. If the operator is unsure about the message and what it's trying to alert the
operator to (which should NEVER happen because operators should be trained to respond to all alarms, Process or
Diagnostic--think about it, the operator is responsible for a multi-million USD (US Dollar) machine burning highly
explosive fuel!!!) the operator should summon a C&I (or (&C) technician and/or an operations supervisor to help with
deciding the proper course of action to resolve the alarm--to make the alarm condition "stop" or "go away."

Finally, once the alarm condition has been resolved, the alarm needs to be "reset" to clear it from the Alarm Display.
NO ALARM CAN BE RESET IT HASN'T BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED.

Silence. Acknowledge. Resolve. Reset. Alarm Management. If the same alarm always occurs at the same time during
starting or stopping, then it should be investigated and resolved. It IS NOT acceptable to have repeated alarms which
are not real and true and which, if true, may lead to eventual damage and failure of some part of the turbine or the
auxiliaries. The operator's job is NOT simply to push START or STOP or to enter a load command reference. The
most important part of the operator's job is properly manage alarms--to take appropriate action whenever an alarm is
annunciated. And, that means the operators and C&I (or I&C) technicians and operation supervisors and plant
managers and mechanical department personnel all need to work together to resolve nuisance and erroneous alarms--
no matter how arduous the task.

Now, you should be able to find somewhere on site a copy of a training manual which was probably provided during
the initial training which almost every site gets prior to commissioning (which is the WRONG time to get training, by
the way!). Find that manual, and you will (should) find more useful information.

If you have specific questions--feel free to ask here. But, also use the 'Search' feature of control.com to look for
answers to prior questions, and you will also likely find information you didn't even know you needed. If you need
clarification, we are here to help. But, if you think someone is going to send you a detailed written description or
video of how a Mark V-controlled GE-design 6FA heavy duty gas turbine is operated, controlled and protected and
how the Mark V works--just get that thought out of your head. No such thing exists.
 Are there no Factory classes you can take?
 Let's just say the OEM has basically dropped support for the Mark V, including most training. There are a couple
of third-party training course providers, but really only one (that I'm aware of) that actually has a Mark V to give
hands-on training with.

One of the things that happens in today's power generation environment is that technicians have responsibility for
many different control systems. The Mark* line of GE turbine control systems is very reliable and for the most part
reasonably robust. So, even if one gets factory training it may be two, three or more years before one has to use the
training and it's usually forgotten by then. I've personally been to sites to assist with issues where Management
belittled the technician for not being able to solve a problem after having been sent to factory training more than three
years ago--and that same Manager was angry at me because he had to pay for me to solve the problem. (Sometimes
it's a no-win situation for everyone.)

Another thing that happens very frequently in both first-, second- and third-world countries is that when someone is
sent to or receives factory training that individual quickly shops that training around to find an employer who will pay
 26
more than they are currently earning and they take that knowledge with them to a higher-paying job. There is little
or no loyalty between employers and employees these days, and employers are often reluctant to send their employees
for training because of the likelihood the employee will not stay for long.

There are many smart, motivated individuals who can dig in and solve problems and learn new systems. But that
requires access to manuals which are often locked away in some Manager's office and a strong desire to dig and learn.
Many Managers are quick to blame the control system and the OEM for poor maintenance and lack of training and
knowledge and experience, some even realizing they are asking technicians to do a lot with very little (training and
experience).

Finally, the factory training given by this OEM was usually very lacking in the fundamentals and didn't really cover
basic necessities. And it was expensive. So, while this seems like a reasonable question and solution it's very
complicated--more so than the control system.

If VJ can form the question better we can provide better responses. Unfortunately, the question is very vague and
extremely broad. Field devices and instruments are connected to the control system by wires, but I don't think that's
the answer the original poster is looking for. I'm always trying to remember how daunting this all seemed to me in the
beginning and what the keys were for me to begin to grasp what was happening--and how. And when there's a
language difference that can make things more difficult, too. Just asking a question can be intimidating and lead to
misunderstanding and confusion.

Hopefully VJ will be patient and a lot more specific and we can go from there.
 One of the best ways to understand the I/O connected to the Mark V is to obtain a copy of the I/O Report. It is an
ASCII text file located in the F:\UNIT1 directory named TC2KREPT.TXT. A printed copy is best, but it is a
document that is formatted for landscape printing and a small, compressed font, and doesn't lend itself well to being
printed (even though it is an ASCII text file). I'll try to look around to see if I can locate some instructions for printing
the file more easily. ONE THING TO KNOW about the I/O Report: It was produced at the GE factory in Salem, VA,
USA, and if any changes to I/O were made in the field by commissioning personnel or customer personnel the
changes had to have been MANUALLY made (using an ASCII text editor) in the TC2KREPT.TXT file. So, it's not
always up-to-date, but it should be fairly close and is still a good reference.

There is another ASCII text file in the F:\UNIT1 directory, IO.ASG. IT <b>IS</b> exactly reflective of how the I/O
is currently connected to the Mark V, but it not very easy to understand or to use as a guide to understanding how I/O
is connected. The I/O Report is better organized, but someone can use IO.ASG to make the necessary changes to the
I/O Report (either in pencil on a printed copy, or using an ASCII text editor). But, these two files, which are usually
present on every gas turbine Mark V operator interface, are the best information about how I/O is physically
terminated--with the caveat above.

The Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195, has an appendix, Appendix D, called the Signal Flow Diagrams. These
are generic drawings, and include optional cards which are not always present in every Mark V panel, which show
physical terminations and then how the input channel flows through the various cards ion the Mark V making its way
into the CDB (the Control signal DataBase), and it shows for output signals the terminal board points and then how
the signals flow from to the terminal board points from the other cards in the Mark V.

Using the I/O Report, IO.ASG, and the signal flow diagrams is the best way to get an understanding of how I/O is
connected to the Mark V.

The I/O (instruments; field devices) connected to the Mark V are NOT done in a random manner. The Mark V has
three redundant control processors (<R>, <S>, & <T>--collectively known as <Q>), and a single "communicator"
processor called <C>. There is also a Protective core, <P>.
 27
<Q> have one, sometimes two, digital I/O cores: <QD1>, and an optional <QD2>. <C> has it's own digital I/O
core, <CD>. Digital I/O cores handle discrete (contact) inputs and discrete (contact outputs). Some of the contact
outputs can be powered from the Mark V, and some are dedicated for particular functions and have some external
devices in the circuit served by them.

There are I/O terminal boards on each of <R>, <S> and <T>, in locations 6, 7, 8 & 9 on <R> and <S>, and in location
6 on <T>. These terminal boards are where the most important, and in some cases critical, analog inputs are
connected. The terminal boards in location 6 are the QTBA terminal boards--they handle I/O that is triple redundant,
or dual redundant, in nature, such as speed pick-ups (each of <R>, <S> & <T> gets its own individual speed pick-up,
77NH-1, -2 and -3), and servo-valve outputs. I don't have access to drawings at this time but if I recall correctly
LVDT excitation is connected to the three QTBAs (generally there are only two LVDTs per device, these being dual
redundant devices, and no two LVDTs from a single device (such as the IGVs) are connected to the same processor's
LVDT excitation (if they were, and that processor failed or had to be powered-down while the unit was running, the
feedback from both of the LVDTs excited by that processor would be lost to the other processors)).

I believe the TBQA is mounted on <R> and it handles the critical thermocouples (usually the exhaust T/Cs and gas
fuel temperature monitoring T/Cs, and the axial compressor discharge temperature T/Cs, and often the inlet ambient
air temperature monitoring T/Cs). This board has three groups of T/C input channels, one directly connected to <R>,
the second directly connected to <S>, and the third directly connected to <T>. All of the three control processors
know what the other processor's T/C values are, but critical T/C inputs are divided between the three control
processors for redundancy purposes--in the event a single control processor fails or is powered-down when the unit is
running there are still two control processors with working critical T/C inputs.

The other terminal boards on <R> and <S> mostly fan out the various analog signals to the three control processors,
and in a couple of specific cases I believe one of the other I/O terminal boards on <R> also has some circuits which
are directly connected to <R>, <S> & <T>.

The overspeed trip speed pick-ups (77HT-1, -2 & -3), flame detectors (as many as eight flame detectors), and fuel
stop valve solenoids (electrical trip devices) are connected to the terminal board on <P> in location 6. There are three
protective processors in <P>: <X>, in location 1, <Y> in location 3 and <Z> in location 5. There is a trip card in
location 4 which has primary trip relays, emergency trip relays, and synchronization relays on it. And, there is an
auxiliary signal conditioning board in location 2 of <P>.

This should be enough to get the original poster started on his journey about instrument connectivity. We can answer
more questions if they are more specific. We cannot post drawings or sketches or files to control.com, so the original
poster is going to have to do some digging to get the documents mentioned above to begin understanding the I/O
connectivity in more detail.
 >Are there no Factory classes you can take?
NO NOT AVAILABLE
 Now, now. No need for all cap's. It was a fair question, and unless one is familiar with the line of control systems
and the OEM's (lack of) support for "older" control systems a reasonable one.

It's been written many times before on control.com--if you want to learn about GE-design heavy duty gas turbine
control and operation you have to be willing to dig into the manuals, find the P&IDs, and associated drawings and
documents, and study. You can ask questions here and we will do our best to respond to clear and unambiguous
requests.

To be a good GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control technician, one really needs to be a good GE-design heavy
duty gas turbine operator. By that I mean that one needs to know what's supposed to happen when--and what's not
supposed to happen when. The best way to "learn" that, because most operators of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines
DON'T know those two things (all they know is how to click on START and change the Pre-Selected Load Control
Setpoint (reference) and silence the audible alarm (if it's even working)) is to learn to "read" the CSP (the name for
 28
the Control Sequence Program, the "logic" program running in the Mark V). Because the CSP running in the Mark
V at your site is how the turbine at your site is going to run--not what's written in some manual or some document.
GE makes WAY too many changes between units and doesn't document them so you MUST learn to be able to read
the CSP in order to figure out what's supposed to happen when, and what's not, so that when an operator says the
"Mark V" isn't doing what it should, or is doing something different than it has ever done before, you can say, "No;
it's doing EXACTLY what it should be doing," or, "You're right, it's not doing what it should be doing," or, "It's
always done that."

"Learning the Mark*" is MUCH more than just learning the Mark V (or VI or VIe)--because it needs inputs and
outputs to do it's job, and to know if the Mark* is doing it's job correctly one needs to be able to learn what it's
supposed to be doing and when, and to be able to say with authority, "It's always done that," or, "It's never done that."
 Let's try this another way. Can you please list the documents you have in your possession? For example, have you
been able to obtain copies of the P&IDs (GE calls them "Piping Schematics" or "Schematic Piping Diagrams")?

Have you been able to find a printed copy of the I/O Report?

Do you have printed copies of the three main Mark V manuals:

Users' Manual, GEH-5979

Maintenance Manual, GEH-5980
Application Manual, GEH-6195

What operator interface do you have: an <I> (running IDOS and a proprietary graphical user interface), or, a GE
Mark V HMI running some version of MS-Windows and a program called CIMPLICITY (with two background
services, TCI and CIMBRIDGE)?

Have you been able to find a copy of the Device Summary? (This lists the device calibration information for most,
BUT NOT ALL, of the I/O which is present on the turbine and most of the auxiliaries, but not generally including the
generator protective relaying and metering in the Generator Protection Panel (GPP).)

Have you been able to find a copy of a training manual which might have been used when the unit was first
installed/commissioned? (Usually, there are "extra" copies of the initial training manuals which end up on some
bookshelf/bookcase with the Operations & Service Manuals.)

Have you been able to get access to the Operations & Service Manuals?

You say you have power plant instrumentation experience; can you say specifically what kind of information you are
looking for? Are you only working on the instrumentation--performing device operation verification (sometimes
called "calibration") and repair/replacement? Are you responsible for troubleshooting turbine and auxiliary operation?

The more specific you can be, the more concise and responsive we can be. The temperature switches and pressure
switches and pressure transmitters and thermocouples and RTDs and speed pick-ups used on a GE-design Frame 6FA
heavy duty gas turbine and auxiliaries are extremely similar to those used on many other power generation equipment
(boilers; reciprocating engines; etc.). The devices you may not have encountered previously would likely include
vibration sensors (proximity type and velocity ("seismic") type), LVDTs (Linear Variable Differential Transducers),
flame sensors (the Mark V REQUIRES flame sensing to interface with 335 VDC input channels; many Mark Vs use a
4-10 mA flame sensor called a Flame Trakker manufactured by Reuter-Stokes (a GE company) and interfacing
through a 4-20 mA to high voltage pulse rate converter), and electro-hydraulic servo valves (usually ones
manufactured by Moog). None of these devices/instruments are magical or mysterious, but there is not much written
about them and not much in the Operations and Service Manuals (unfortunately).
 29
Control.com has a very fast and excellent 'Search' feature, cleverly hidden at the far right of the Menu bar at the top
of every control.com webpage (unless you are using the mobile version, in which case it's even more cleverly hidden
under the 'control.com' tab on the Menu bar...). It is HIGHLY recommended to use the Search 'Help' the first couple
of times you use the Search feature because the syntax of search commands is probably not like the one in your
preferred World Wide Web search engine--but it is just as, if not more, powerful than your preferred World Wide
Web search engine. The GE-design heavy duty gas turbine controls community here at control.com has been very
active for more nearly 15 years, if not longer. And, in that time we have covered a LOT of various topics, most having
to do with GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control systems and GE-design heavy duty gas turbine operation, but
also with some mechanical issues related to GE-design heavy duty gas turbines and auxiliaries. So, there are a LOT of
threads with a LOT of information, if you're willing to search for them in what are called the control.com Archives.

Happy searching! And, again--the more specific you can be, the more concise and prompt our responses will be. Help
us to help you! It's all free. All we ask is that if you find the information provided to be helpful (either in threads you
originate, or in past threads) that you either click on the 'Thumbs up' icon or reply to let others who read these threads
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how it could have been better or more helpful. Again, help us to help you. It's all free.)
 There are various companies who provide MKV Training, try Googling around, I'm sure you can find them.
 I just googled GE Mark V Training. Looks like there is a class in Houston on September 17-28.

I took the GE Mark V training class when it was in Salem. It is good. You need to be familiar with the equipment and
documentation before taking it.

I have taken three GE offered training courses. They were using retired GE persons at the time, to teach the classes.

If you do choose to take a GE training or any training for that matter, don't take it easy on the instructors. Make sure
they teach you what you want to know. If you don't understand something, stop them. I guarantee you will not be the
only one who doesn't understand what is going on.

I have sat in too many training classes where students will not understand a more advanced topic, because when the
basics were being taught they just sat their nodding their heads.

When I was took the class, HPC technical and Gas Turbine Controls were also offering it.

Diffusion Air Purpose in DLN2.6

I have been wondering about the purpose of diffusion air in DLN2.6. Is it used before transferring into premix mode?
Is it used for Gas Turbine Purging? Diffusion air has a manifold which is distributed to all Cans. Diffusion air is
clearly taking from CPD. The connection of the diffusion air is on the Can End Cover just as PM1, 2 and 3. I don't
remember the diffusion air is being monitored on Mark 6.

 What do the Operation Manual sections on the fuel systems and combustion system say the diffusion air is for?

I believe GE has published a lot of documents describing DLN combustion systems, many of which are freely
available on the World Wide Web, that provide very good--if brief-- descriptions and explanations.

In most GE-design F-class heavy duty gas turbines with DLN combustion systems, diffusion air flow is neither
monitored nor controlled by the gas turbine control system.
 Unfortunately, there is no mention of diffusion air in the operation manual. Also I asked the GE consulting office
in my plant, and they seem have no information about it.
 30
what puzzles me is that when you look at the cutaway of the fuel nozzle of DLN2.6, you will see five passages
(premix gas, diffusion gas, atomizing air, water injection, and liquid fuel). there is no passage for the diffusion air.

I have read more than one patent (like patent US 5259184) about DLN2 and what I understood is that during gas
operation [low loads], diffusion gas will mix with air coming for the atomizing air passage (I believe it is called purge
air when running on gas with lower pressure ratio). So the air fed to the combustor during diffusion gas operation is
from the atomizing air passage. Diffusion air purpose still not clear as I don't see how it will get to the combustion
liner since there is no passage for it inside the fuel nozzle.
Can you post the P&IDs for Gas Fuel and Atomizing Air to a websharing site?
 In my recollection, diffusion refers to diffusion flame, which is the bright orange flame which emits UV, as
opposed to premix combustion which doesn't emit any UV. There must always be a small diffusion flame (or multiple
small diffusion flames), sometimes referred to as pilot flame(s) in order to keep the temperature high enough to
sustain premix combustion--and to burn CO (Carbo Monox).

It's been many years since I studied DLN, and there have been many changes to the technology since then (2.0, 2.6,
2.6e, 2.6e+, etc.). Again, GE has published many documents about DLN combustion (GE publications usually are
identified with GEH- followed by for or five digits and sometimes a single alpha character (which identifies the
revision of the document). They can generally be found on the World Wide Web by searching for portions of the title;
the search results should indicate the location is some GE website or webpage. I think GER-3620 has some
information about different DLN combustion technologies. And one must always remember when dealing with any
GE-design heavy duty gas turbine that GE Belfort has responsibility for (9F-class units fall into this category), they
modify proven technology and needlessly complicate simple (and even complicated) things. Which makes life very
interesting at times. And they do not document or explain their "improvements."

GE-Frame -9E Atomizing Air

Reply
THREAD STARTERKASHIF START DATEMay 17, 2010
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Thread Starter
kashif
May 17, 2010
#1
I have needed following information about GT. I am at new power project CCPP under erection. This is My first
experience on GT.

GT is dual fuel type, Mark-VI, Starting at fuel oil (HSD), Atomising Air system main components are, Cooler, Main
and accessory compressor, control valves.

1- What is Atomising air normal pressure and temperature

How pressure is controlled?
2- What is Atomising air conditions (Temp. and Press.) during start up and shut down

3- What affect of increasing/Decreasing pressure/Temp.

4-What can be reason of increasing/decreasing pressure/temperature

Like ReplyReport
 31
CSA
May 17, 2010
#2
Hello,

There should be a document that is provided with the unit and control system called the Device Summary. You need
that document, along with the Piping Schematic drawings (P&IDs) to answer most of these questions.

You should find there is a temperature regulating valve in the Atomizing Air System, that controls the temperature of
the air entering the Main Atomizing Air Compressor. If the Main AA Compressor is typical of most Frame 9Es it will
be driven by the Accessory Gear and there is a speed increaser which spins this centrifugal compressor at very high
speeds. Some Main AA Compressors operate at 14,000 RPM, some at even higher speeds. So, the temperature of the
air entering the compressor is very critical to maintain proper clearances inside the compressor. Excessively high
temperatures will cause catastrophic failure of the Main Atomizing Air Compressor. I believe the Device Summary
will list the setpoint of the Atomizing Air Pre-Cooler Temperature Regulating Valve as 225 deg F, or approx. 108 deg
C. There is usually a temperature switch, 26AA-1, which will alarm if the temperature of the air entering the Main
AA Compressor exceeds approximately 275 deg F. And, the Main AA Compressor manufacturer (typically Atlas-
Copco) usually states that the entering air temperature must be less than 300 deg F. So, it's vitally important to keep
the temperature of the air entering the Main AA Compressor controlled, hopefully to 225 deg F, and in all cases, less
than 300 deg F.

There is a Booster Atomizing Air Compressor, used for providing atomizing air during starting and initial
acceleration. The presence of atomizing air during starting and acceleration is very critical to establishing flame and
reducing smoking during starting and acceleration. So, this compressor is critical to start-up.

There is no direct control of Atomizing Air pressure; none. At least not on any GE-design heavy duty gas turbines
that I've ever worked on. There is an orifice in the AA piping that is used to control pressure and flow based on
empirical data. There are some typical parameters that are followed, but you didn't tell us if the unit has conventional
combustors or DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustors.

AA pressure on units with conventional combustors usually isn't monitored with a pressure transmitter (or multiple
transmitters) since it's not controlled (it just is what it is). Having said that, some of the turbine packagers have begun
adding an AA pressure transmitter since it's good to be able to monitor it from the HMI (since most operators are
loathe to go to the Gauge Cabinet and look at a gauge). For conventiona combustor-equipped units, I believe the
absolute pressure ratio for AA-to-CPD is somewhere around 1.2:1, but I may be a little high on that (hopefully
someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). I don't know what it is or should be for DLN combustor-equipped Frame 9Es.

During start-up, it's usually very difficult to see much, if any, pressure increase because the pressure during firing and
early acceleration is very low with respect to the range of the gauge and/or transmitter. But, rest assured: if there's not
sufficient atomizing air for firing from the Booster Atomizing Air Compressor the unit will not light, and even if it
does (which it likely will not) there will be a LOT of smoking (not that all smoking during firing and acceleration is a
function of AA pressure; it's not!).

Too much AA will potentially blow the flame out; and too little will result in excessive, billowing white smoke
coming from the exhaust.

There isn't much reason for changes in AA pressure, during steady-state operation, because it's a function of IGV
angle and load, primarily. Air is extracted from the axial compressor discharge and fed to the AA Pre-cooler, then to
the suction side of the Main AA Compressor. Again, none of the GE-design Frame 9Es I've ever seen or worked on
had any kind of control for AA pressure, nor for the temperature of the Main (or Booster) AA Compressor(s). The
temperature and pressure are what they are at the discharge of the compressors. The only real "control" is the
temperature of the air entering the Main AA Compressor, and it's pretty critical.
 32

If the temperature regulating valve to be used for the AA Pre-Cooler is made by Robertshaw, be sure to read the
instructions from the valve manufacturer before attempting to adjust the valve's setpoint. Also, you can't adjust the
setpoint unless the unit is running, and any adjustment you make will take several minutes for the change to stabilize
so patience is key! Along with knowing how to change the setpoint (it's not intuitively obvious on the Robertshaw
valves).

Lastly, know that when the AA Pre-cooler Temp Regulating valve is set for 225 deg F, that when the unit is shut
down and the line is at ambient temperature, the valve will be CLOSED because ambient is much less than the
setpoint! So, when the unit starts up, it will take some time (because the Robertshaw valves are very slow-acting, but
they do work well!) for the valve to open and there is a risk of a high AA temp process alarm while the valve is
opening. PATIENCE is key here, as well as a good understanding of how the valve works.

Of course, if the unit does not use Robertshaw temperature regulating valves, then the above is not relevant. But, we
don't know what is to be used at your site.

Hope this helps!

The best thing you can do to get familiar with the turbine and it's operation is to get your own copies of the Piping
Schematics (P&IDs) and Device Summary and start studying them and commit them to memory. You should make
notes with a pencil and highlighters all over the drawings about the setpoints for devices and any pertinent
information you have learned about the systems.

Finally, all of the Piping Schematic drawings have notes on them. READ THE FINE NOTES!!!! There is invaluable
information in the Notes on each of the Piping Schematic drawings.

No one can be a good operator or a good technician unless they understand and can read and interpret the Piping
Schematics (P&IDs), and that includes the Device Summary (which as the setpoints and calibration information for
most of the devices and instruments on the drawings). Make sure you know where all of the field devices and
instruments are located, because there's not generally one drawing which depicts the locations of all the devices and
instruments, and when you need to find one, you need to know where it is to find it!

Good luck with your training. Let us know if we can provide any more information.

And, remember: Feedback is the most important contribution!"(c) here at control.com. There has been a lot of
information written and shared here on control.com over the last few years, and the 'Search' feature can be very
helpful in finding answers to questions which likely have already been asked. And, when you use the 'Search' feature
you should notice that most people have responded to say if they found the information helpful or useful, which is the
feedback which lets others know if the information was truly helpful--or not. If you can take a few minutes to ask a
question or ask for help, you can take a few minutes to write back and let others know if you received the information
you needed or if the help was instrumental in resolving your problem. Without that kind of feedback, it's virtually
impossible for others reading the posts in the future to know if the information in the post is good or not.

So, help up to keep our tradition going, of responding to let others know if you found what you were looking for in
the responses provided!
 Your reply was more explanatory, even more than my expectations, I really appreciate.

Moreover,Our site GT is Conventional combustion system, not DLN.

I checked device summary anbd also logics. CA1 inlet temp, ranges are Low:194F, High:270F. while differential
pressure setting for CA1 is Low:6PSI. I have seen at nameplate of Main AA compressor
Rated RPM are 50100
 33
Is it true?

Gear box shaft at which Compressor is installed,its rpm are 6600

I could not find compressor pinion and gear speed ratio any where

after that from precooler there is a line installed mesh silencer and a hand valve that is for blowing or purging, that's
for what purpose
also a .08mm hole in a plug after booster compressor discharge, That is also for purging,for??

A bypass valve VA18-1

that is open at gas fuel operation and close at fuel oil operation,That is ok, make sense
But when I see logic for that valve
During fuel transfer oil to gas, this will remain open,after transfer close for 33sec,then again open
this sequence stand for what

an orifice is installed at by pass line after VA18-1 but no thing on main line to control flow or pressure as you
mentioned in reply

And another question, If there is any trouble with booster compressor can we go for startup? is it possible

After atomizing air I have also few actual issues existing at our site
Thanks
 Yes; it's true. 50100 RPM sounds like a reasonable speed for the Main AA Compressor (CA1). They usually have
their own speed-increasing gear box. The Accessory Gear Box on which CA1 is mounted should have its own
nameplate, and the speed of the various output shafts should be listed on the nameplate, or on some document in the
Instruction Manuals provided with the unit.

The temperature of the inlet air is important. If it's too high then the compressor can fail; if it's too low then liquid
from condensed moisture in the air might make its way into the compressor which can also make it fail. The internal
clearances in the compressor are very critical to the compressor's performance, and so they are very small. High
temperature inlet air and moisture in the inlet air are the two main causes of failure of the Main AA Compressor. So,
the proper setting of the Atomizing Air Pre-cooler Temperature Regulating Valve is very important. It must be set so
that the air temperature doesn't exceed the 270 deg F inlet maximum, nor the 194 deg F inlet minimum (during
operation at rated turbine speed).

I'm not sure about the silencer, but it might be possible that it's used to dampen pulsations in the line. When an Off-
Line Water Wash is performed, there is a high likelihood of water entering the Atomizing Air Piping, so the manual
valve is there to allow as much of the water to be drained from the piping as possible prior to re-start. This is very
important. Valve positions during Off-line Water Washing are critical to proper operation and long life of the
machine. You would do well to work closely with the commissioning personnel on site to develop a detailed
procedure for Off-Line Water Washing, and then to paint the valve handles of the valves which must be manually
operated during an Off-Line Water Wash so they can be quickly identified. A procedure is key to timely and safe
completion of an Off-Line Water Wash, and marking the valve handles with uniquely colored (high-temperature)
paint also helps tremendously. (The paint doesn't adversely affect turbine performance or the warranty of the unit--
contrary to the statements of some Plant- and Operations Managers!)

You should have seen in the Notes on the Piping Schematic drawing that the 0.08mm orifice is for a continuous blow-
down, which means that when the unit is running there will be a very small amount of air continuously blowing out
that very small orifice, and with it should be any condensate or moisture which might be in the line. A lot of people
think that "hole" is a "leak", and they cap it off; don't do that, it's very important, and it's very important that it be kept
free and clear so it needs to be checked during maintenance outages.
 34
Continuous blow-down orifices are typically used in various systems, and they are all very important. They are
also supposed to be located in the lowest points of the piping systems, where any moisture/condensate might collect.

The time delay during transfer is likely for purging; without being able to see the Piping Schematic and the
sequencing, it's difficult to say for certain.

If there is no orifice, then it's been determined that none is required, and the system has sufficient capacity and
"restriction" without a need for any flow "control".

If there is a problem with the Booster Atomizing Air Compressor, and you need to start the unit on liquid fuel, then
it's pretty likely the unit won't start. Or, if it does, it will likely be a very smokey start (lots of billowy, white smoke;
high exhaust temperature spreads; and flickering flame indications). If it's an emergency situation and you needed to
start the unit, it would be worth a try, but it likely wouldn't start. Fuel, spark, and air--combustion air and atomizing
air--are what's required for starting on liquid fuel. Not enough of either, or too much of one with respect to the others
is bad.

I've only seen a pressure switch used to indicate low atomizing air pressure when running on liquid fuel. And, I think
it would be a differential pressure switch. Other than that, without being able to see the Piping Schematic and the
sequencing, it would be difficult to say for certain.

Good questions. Don't forget to read the Notes on all of the Piping Schematic (P&ID) drawings! There is very
important and useful information in those Notes. Some of it is "boiler-plate" (repeated) and common sense, but some
of it is critical to proper configuration, operation and maintenance.
 Silencer i I mentioned is installed at a small line (1" tube) taken from precooler. That’s also seems for continuous
blowing.

And a isolation valve is available before cooler to isolate system during water washing, So no chance for water to
reach at that location

During a start up I have seen that CPD at HMI appears one bar around 1600 rpm of GT. And Booster is stopped at
1800rpm.

So its mean is that in beginning atomizing air pressure will also very low,If there is trouble with booster compressor
then if I arrange a external air supply after booster and before main compressor then would it assists the startup.

Can I send u P&I for easy discussion.

If I can then How?
Okay; makes sense about the silencer.

As for sending the P&ID, some people have posted drawings on some file-sharing websites (www.tinypic.com, for
example) and then posted the URL here on control.com.

The likelihood of a failure of the booster atomizing air compressor, if properly maintained, is not very high. In other
words, they are pretty reliable, if properly maintained.

You could always arrange another source of atomizing air, but it needs to be at the proper pressure and flow-rate, and
I don't know how to tell you to determine that other than by examining nameplates and piping systems.

But, again, the likelihood of a problem with the booster atomizing air compressor increases in reverse proportion to
the quality of the maintenance and operation. Don't maintain it; it will likely be a problem. Don't operate the liquid
fuel system periodically, and it will most definitely be a problem when you need it.
 35
Water can enter the atomizing air system by backflowing through the atomizing air passages of the fuel nozzles.
Water can get everywhere it's not desired when Off-Line Water Washing. Best to get that procedure nailed down and
those valves identified sooner rather than after the failure of some component.

Make sure all the continuous blow-downs are clear during every maintenance outage.

Maintenance and proper operation will do the most to ensure you don't need a secondary source of atomizing air for
starting. And, keeping moisture out of places it doesn't belong, by keeping air temperatures at the proper values and
properly performing Off-Line Water Washes, including draining the lines after washing, is also very important.

But, if you want to research and design a system to supply starting atomizing air, have at it! If reliable starting on
liquid fuel is that critical, you have LOTs more potential sources of problems than the Booster AA Compressor!
LOTS!

Gas turbine purge air

gas turbine frame 5 axial compressor. PLZ ANY BODY TELL ME WHAT IS PURGE AIR AND WHAT IS
OPERATION OF PURGE AIR
 Purge air is generally compressor discharge air used to purge lines of combustible vapors as well as to cool
components. For example, CPD used to purge the gas fuel system when operating on liquid fuel, the purge air is
supposed to ensure that there is no combustible gas/air mixture present in the piping being purged, and it also serves
to cool the gas fuel tip(s) of the fuel nozzle(s) in the combustor.

You should be able to find a Piping Schematic (P&ID) for the Purge Air system, and some kind of system description
in the Service/Operation Manual.

If you still need more information, you're going to need to provide more details about your question.
 Meanwhile, I am working on the Engineering stage of GE FRAME6B, and the Purge air line is taking on the PID
to DLN Fuel gas skid. I understand the first point that it will be used to cool the fuel gas tips of the fuel gas nozzles in
the combustor. BUT I will like to know if in that same line is used for purging combustible vapor?
 As in the previous reply, purge air is used to push out any combustible gases (vapours) in the fuel nozzle, for
cooling the fuel nozzles, AND to prevent backflow of hot combustion gases into the fuel nozzles and manifolds which
can result in circulating hot combustion gases between combustors and severe damage.

Purge air, when first introduced into the gas fuel manifolds/nozzles, pushes out any remaining gas fuel (when
transferring from liquid fuel to gas fuel). That's why the purge valves, VA13-n, are usually set to open relatively
slowly so as not to suddenly push a lot of fuel into the combustors which can result in a load spike and an exhaust
temperature spike.
 The F5001 i am working on currently has had a combustion problem for many years. Investigations show that
when the LPG system was decommissioned many years ago. GE disabled the GAS purge, not the Distillate purge
system, e.g. VA-13 1 & 2 are disabled locally although the logic is still in the Mk5.

Now, the fuel nozzles suffer from extreme carbonization. I am suspecting that the purge system should be
recommissioned to give the gas caps cooling air & to introduce the missing compressor discharge air back into the
liner.
 Something seems amiss here. Most of the units with LPG I have worked on have used the same gas fuel delivery
system (manifold and nozzles) that are used to deliver natural gas; they just use separate Stop-Ratio and Gas Control
Valve SRV & GCV) assemblies--one for LPG and one for Natural Gas. It would seem--if this is the case--that if one
were switching from natural gas to LPG, or vice versa, that purging the gas fuel delivery system through VA13-
1/VA13-2 would not be possible. However, purging the gas fuel delivery system when operating on liquid fuel would
be advisable.
 36
Also, VA13-1 and VA13-2 each usually have a pair of limit switches to indicate when the valves are fully open or
fully closed, as well as a solenoid-operated vent valve between the two block-and-bleed valves (VA13-1 and VA13-2)
AND a pressure switch to monitor the pressure between the two valves. I could envision that it would be possible to
"disable" the two block-and-bleed valves, and even the vent valve by blocking the air flow to the valves, or by
electrically isolating the valves and even the pressure switches--but the sequencing in the Mark V would require a lot
more modification to prevent alarms when the valves weren't in the proper position(s) and/or there was or wasn't
pressure in the intervalve area when there shouldn't or should be pressure.

Can you determine from the carbon deposits where the material causing the carbonization came from? If the liquid
fuel nozzles were not properly being purged when running on gaseous fuel that can cause "dribbling" which can result
in carbonization of the liquid fuel. But, that's usually pretty obvious from the patterns on the faces of the fuel nozzles.

I have also seen lubricating oil, hydraulic fluid, diesel, and gasoline entrained in natural gas from the pipeline cause
carbonization of the gas fuel tips, when there is no "knock-out drum" ("cyclone separator") upstream of the turbine.

And, I wonder what would happen if the LPG wasn't properly heated/vapourized prior to being admitted to the gas
fuel delivery system.... Actually, I think there would be high exhaust temperature alarms when condensate made it
ways into the combustors, if not overtemperature trips.

And, natural gas can also have a "high" dewpoint temperature, that can result in condensation as it flows through
valves, orifices and nozzles. (Every pressure drop through an orifice, a valve or a fuel nozzle results in a temperature
drop--that can cause condensation.)

Usually, most units which I have worked on that run on LPG have to start or shut down on some other fuel--not all,
but most. So, purging would seem to be necessary and advisable, if possible. Again, we don't have much to work on
here, and we don't have access to the P&IDs or the Control Specification to understand the details of the unit and
auxiliaries.

Some natural gas these days is very, very dirty--containing lots of sulfur and even dust and dirt.

But, still, one has to wonder why some "partial" disabling of the gas purge system was done, and without being able
to see the P&IDs for the unit in question--and without better understanding what you mean by "combustion
problems"--we can't say too much more. Please try to understand the source of the carbonization (liquid fuel;
entrained liquids in one or the other gas fuel source; condensation of liquids entrained in the one or the other gas fuel
source; etc.).

One more thing about "commissioning".... Sometimes (usually) the time available for commissioning is very short
(because of mechanical construction issues using too much time). And, if there are problems with fuel supply systems
during commissioning (incomplete; poor design issues; unavailability of fuels; intermittent availability of fuels; etc.)
that cause things to be left in an incomplete state. The thought is that at some time in the future when "things get
finished" or design issues get resolved, or fuels become available, that the systems and functions will be finally and
fully commissioned. And, sometimes, that just never happens, and there's no monies for people to return to complete
the commissioning. (Don't ask how I know this.) So, things get left unfinished or just abandoned because of
conditions and situations that are not fully understood years, sometimes decades, later.

Please write back to let us know what you find and how you fare in troubleshooting and resolving the issues! If you
need further assistance, we are going to need to understand exactly what kinds of combustion problems the unit has,
and some idea of how the two gaseous fuels are delivered to the turbine. Some people post scans of P&IDs to free
web-sharing sites, such as www.tinypic.com, and then post a URL to them here (since we can't post images or
attachments to control.com).
 Ah! I think you misunderstood, my fault, there is no gas used on this machine anymore. It is distillate only.
 37
Therefore when the gas fuel side was decommissioned many years ago, they isolated VA13 -1 & 2 & associated
equipment. (they even removed the gas mimic page from the screens) this results in no purge/cooling air cooling the
fuel nozzles when running on distillate, hence the poor combustion & over heating of the nozzle 'gas' caps. its just my
opinion, i was wanting confirmation of this theory or am i miles away?
 One would presume that if the gas fuel system was decommissioned it was also removed--meaning the manifold
surrounding the axial compressor casing was removed, and the pigtails/hoses from the piping to the fuel nozzles were
also removed, and that blank flanges were placed on the gas fuel inlet flanges of the fuel nozzles.

This would mean there was no way for hot combustion gases to circulate between combustors through the gas
manifold. This would also mean that purge air from VA13-1 & -2 couldn't get to the gas fuel passages of the fuel
nozzles, which would also reduce the cooling of the gas fuel tip of the fuel nozzle.

In my personal opinion, the lack of purge air--which does provide some cooling--but whose secondary function is to
prevent hot combustion gases from flowing backwards through the gas fuel passages of the fuel nozzles, through the
pigtails/hoses and into the manifold and circulated between combustors--is not a problem as long as blind flanges
were placed on the gas fuel inlet flanges of the fuel nozzles.

The primary purpose of purge air is to purge any fuel from the passages it is flowing into and through so that there is
no chance for that fuel to combust. The secondary purpose is to prevent backflow through the passages, and possible
circulation to other combustors which have higher or lower pressures. And the last, and really the least, purpose is to
cool the passages. That's really just kind of a side benefit (remember purge air will be coming from the atomizing air
compressor discharge, so it will be pretty hot, just not as hot as the temperature inside the combustion liner. (It's all
relative.)

If it's carbonization you are most worried about--and that's what it seemed from you original post--then it would seem
that there is some problem with "dribbling" of liquid fuel during shutdown. If the unit only runs on liquid fuel, it
would seem the most likely time when liquid fuel could carbonize on the fuel nozzle tips would be during and after
shutdown. It might also happen during starting, too, but I would think the highest likelihood would be during
shutdown.

Improper atomization of liquid fuel during running operation could also cause carbonization of liquid fuel on the
nozzle tips. It's entirely possible there is insufficient atomizing air flowing to the fuel nozzles when the unit is running
on liquid fuel. There was some kind of "bypass" solenoid-operated valve on the atomizing air compressor that may
have been overlooked when the gas fuel system was decommissioned. (I don't recall if it defaulted to maximum
atomizing air flow, or to reduced atomizing air flow.)

Again, I read you original post as concern about heavy carbonization on the fuel nozzle tips. Whatever is carbonizing
on the fuel nozzle tips is not being properly atomized or burned during running, or is dribbling into the combustors
after the unit is shut down (or possibly during start-up, also). It's been said MANY times before on control.com: The
liquid fuel check valves are the weakest link of the liquid fuel delivery system--and they are NOT controlled or
monitored by the turbine control system. They are just expected to perform properly at all times, and the poppet-style
check valves commonly used on GE-design heavy duty gas turbine liquid fuel systems are prone to failure. Some
packagers of GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also used two poppet-style check valves in series (with cracking
pressures rated for half the desired cracking pressure), and if one of them failed then the pressure would be half of
what was necessary for proper mechanical atomization of the liquid fuel as it passed through the liquid fuel portion of
the fuel nozzle. (Liquid fuel is mechanically atomized as it passes through the liquid fuel portion of the fuel nozzle,
and then it is further atomized by atomizing air pressure/flow as it exits the fuel nozzle before it combusts. Both
atomizations are critical to complete combustion.

One thing that is going to happen to liquid fuel-only machines during shutdown is that since the liquid fuel can't be
purged from the liquid fuel passages of the fuel nozzles after fuel is shut off to the fuel nozzles is it's going to get
heated up inside the fuel nozzles (from the residual heat in the combustors) and it's going to expand, and dribble out
 38
of the tips, where it's going to carbonize. I don't think there's any way to avoid that.... Unless the liquid fuel
downstream of the liquid fuel check valve can be purged out of the fuel nozzles as soon as fuel flow to the nozzles is
shut off--and it's purged completely!--it would seem that there is going to be some fuel that is inevitably going to be
dribbling out of the fuel nozzles and on to the fuel nozzle tips. And, even if the fuel was purged out of the fuel
nozzles, it would be purged into the combustors--which would mean it would fall on to the inside of the combustion
liners, where it would also evaporate--causing smoking!--and carbonization on the liners below the fuel nozzles.

Hope this helps! As long as there's no way for hot combustion gases to flow backwards through the gas passages of
the fuel nozzles I don't think cooling of those passages is really required. And, again, cooling is the least required
function, and it's just a relative cooling anyway--because purge air comes from the atomizing air system (if I recall
correctly), and atomizing air compressor discharge air is pretty hot.
 Few points, the purge air is from the compressor discharge, not the atomizing air (which after the pre-cooler is only
around 75C). The check valves are all brand new & no leakage was found. The atomizing air bypass is only for when
running on gas.

So, back to the job of the purge air, i agree its to banish combustion gasses from the gas manifold & pipework up to
the GSV/SRV. however, the manual states it is part of the cooling function of the gas cap & being so, the amount of
air to each gas cap (which is compressor discharge air, remember) is almost 7 bar. now, when the liner air flow is
calculated, I'm sure 7 bar of additional air (to each fuel nozzle) is taken into account, this is now missing by
decommissioning SA13 -1 & 2.

So the gas cap is hotter & the combustion has lost 7 bar of air. BTW, the nozzles are from brand new nozzles to badly
coked in one start & only running for 12hrs.
 Few points; atomizing air pre-cooler discharge temperature should be approximately 125 deg C--because there
should be no possibility of moisture condensation at the inlet to the atomizing air compressor.

A liquid fuel only machine will not have a gas tip, and so would be the gas fuel tip would have NO orifices and
passages in it. Usually, the swirler vanes are present to add a swirling motion to the combustion air passing through
the swirler vanes to help with combustion of the liquid fuel (by assisting with atomization).

Usually, when gas fuel is removed from a turbine that also runs liquid fuel the gas fuel manifold(s) around the axial
compressor that supply fuel to the fuel nozzles are also removed, and flange blinds are bolted to the fuel nozzle
flanges where the pigtails/hoses from the manifolds would be connected to pass gas fuel (and purge air) to the gas fuel
passages and orifices of the gas fuel nozzle tip. Failure to remove the gas fuel manifolds and pigtails/hoses provides
paths for hot combustion gases to flow backwards into the gas fuel orifices of the gas fuel tips, through the
pigtails/hoses and into the manifold and then they can circulate through the manifold to combustors with lower
pressures. This is secondarily what purge air was supposed to prevent--the backflow of hot combustion gases from
one combustor or combustors with higher pressures inside the combustor(s) to a combustor or combustors with lower
pressures. It's the flow of hot combustion gases that causes the damage to the tips.

Purge air pushes the combustible vapours out of the fuel nozzles and into the combustors, where it's burned, to
prevent carbonization and combustion in the fuel nozzle passages AND the pigtails/hoses and manifolds. I have seen
flexible hoses that were burned through because of the combustion of fuel in the hoses that was not properly purged
out of the hoses (they are the weakest portion of the manifold/nozzle fuel delivery system and can least stand the
heat). The backflow of hot combustion gases into the flexible hoses (from the gas fuel orifices in the gas fuel tips of
the fuel nozzles), to combustors with lower internal pressures, was responsible for the high temperatures that resulted
in the hoses getting so hot the fuel which had not been properly purged and causing the fuel to ignite.

What's not clear from the description of the site, and which seems to be a large part of the problem, is whether or not
the gas fuel manifold(s) were removed from the unit and flange blinds were installed on the gas fuel flanges of the
fuel nozzles. Without a path for the hot combustion gases to flow backwards into the nozzle tips there will not be a
problem with the nozzle tips being exposed to the heat of the combustor. The liquid fuel flame ball SHOULD NOT be
 39
on the tip of the fuel nozzled--it should be a slight distance from the metal tip, which will allow for combustion air
(CPD air) to help with convection cooling of the nozzle tips. BUT, if there is a path for hot combustion gases to flow
backwards into the fuel nozzles the hot combustion gases--hotter than CPD--will and have been known to cause
deformation and melting of the nozzle tips.

Cooling is a by-product of purging. Purging of combustible vapours is the primary purposes. Preventing back-flow of
hot combustion gases (hotter than CPD) into the fuel nozzle orifices, pigtails/hoses and fuel manifold(s) is the
secondary purpose. And, cooling is the tertiary purpose--and really, it's just a benefit of the flow of purge air through
the nozzles--not a purpose. There is "combustion air" entering the head end of the combustor (CPD) that flows around
and over the fuel nozzle tips that provides cooling (because CPD is cooler that the hot combustion gases which are
radiating heat--against the flow of combustion air (CPD)).

Without being able to see pictures of the nozzles immediately after removal from the combustor endcovers, and after
removal of each of the tips (gas fuel; atomizing air) and the liquid fuel portion of the fuel nozzles it's impossible to
say what caused the carbonization. I have seen improperly assembled and improperly installed liquid fuel "cartridges"
that leaked liquid fuel into the atomizing air passage and very quickly caused carbonization--a LOT of carbonization--
on the tips of the fuel nozzle (the liquid fuel tip, the atomizing air tip, and the gas fuel tip). The patterns formed on the
tips very clearly showed the downward flow of the fuel and carbon formation. The improperly assembly of the liquid
fuel cartridges, in addition to allowing liquid fuel to leak out of the cartridge and into the AA passage, resulted in
improper atomization of the liquid fuel (pressure atomization caused by the internal swirler vanes of the liquid fuel
cartridge). This also caused problems with the flame being too close to the fuel nozzle tips, and because of the
improper atomization and incomplete combustion added to the carbonization. (Very shortly after the machine had
been re-started with the reassembled fuel nozzle cartridges high exhaust temperature spreads appeared; it was started
and run twice in 24 hours, and only ran for a one- or two-hour period before the spreads became so high the unit was
in danger of tripping, and the unit was manually tripped shortly after synchronization on the second start because the
spreads were so high.) Because there is no purging of liquid fuel after shutdown while operating on liquid fuel, and
because so much fuel had leaked out of the liquid fuel cartridges during the shutdown/cooldown period and had
carbonized in the liquid fuel cartridges it caused a couple of the liquid fuel tips to be nearly completed blocked,
resulting in the very high exhaust temperature spread at FSNL.

Disabling gas fuel has to include removal of the gas fuel manifold(s), associated pigtails/hoses, and blanking
(blinding) of the gas fuel fuel nozzle flange--to prevent hot combustion gases from flowing backwards through the
gas fuel nozzle orifices, pigtails/hoses and into lower pressure combustor(s). ESPECIALLY if the purge air is
disabled BUT the gas fuel manifolds and pigtails/hoses were not removed, there is going to be a path for hot
combustion gases to flow backwards and through the manifold--and THAT is going to mean the fuel nozzle tips and
passages are going to be exposed to excessive heat. There are NO check valves in the gas fuel system to prevent
backflow into the manifold, and pressure differentials of even a couple of psig (tenths of a barg) WILL cause hot
combustion gases to flow where they ain't supposed to flow.

Again, there is combustion air (CPD) that will be flowing around the outside of the fuel nozzles at all times--
regardless of which fuel is being burned, so there is some cooling of the nozzle tips even if it's not from the inside.
And, the flame ball should not be ON the fuel nozzle tip, it should be a short distance from the tip.

If the gas fuel manifold(s) and pigtails/hoses are still installed on the unit, and VA13-1 &-2 have been disabled to
prevent purge air from flowing through the manifolds and pigtails/hoses and gas fuel nozzle passages and orifices
there is a high likelihood that hot combustion gases have flowed backwards through the gas fuel system from
combustor(s) with high pressure to combustor(s) with low pressure--and this will cause the tips to experience higher-
than-normal temperatures resulting in deformation. (I saw the tips of atomizing air cones liberated in a couple of
hours; fortunately they were vapourized in the flame ball and high diffusion flame temperatures and didn't cause any
damage to the first stage turbine nozzles and buckets.) I worked on one of the first GE-design dual fuel (distillate-gas)
heavy duty gas turbines to be retrofitted with purge air for the gas fuel system; it took several months to work out all
of the problems and sequencing--and in the process a lot of fuel nozzle tips and components were damaged. My
 40
millwright/pipefitter crew became VERY good at removing and re-installing fuel nozzles very quickly--like a race
car pit crew! (In the beginning we had lots of leaks and problems on reassembly.)

Without a manifold and without pigtails/hoses connecting the fuel nozzles to the manifold there is not going to be a
path for hot gases to flow--and so purging, and cooling, isn't going to be required. Take away the path for hot gases to
flow and the need for purging/cooling goes away.
GE 9FA (DLN 2.0+) Gas Fuel System
I am new on GE gas turbine. I understand GE codes, their P&IDs, every systems. But I am much confused on "Gas
fuel system". Here I am uploading GE gas fuel system P&ID and giving the link:

 My curiosities are on :

1. In Safety shutoff valve (SSOV) , VS4-4 , 2 vent lines are shown on P&ID, one is from valve upper portion and
another is from bottom portion (Of course I marked at uploaded P&ID with red arrow). My question is, why we need
these vent lines, If we ignore those, what problem can happen?

2. In same page, in the D5, PM1, PM4 assembly, 3 pressure transmitters (PDT 96GN-1, 96GN-2, 96GN-3) are in
used. (Of course I marked at uploaded P&ID with red arrow). My curiosity is, why these sensors are in used? actually
which differential pressure are they measuring ? Any control is given on the based on their measurement?

3. In the Strainer, a differential pressure switch is used, (PDS 63FGD-1). I already noticed on GE "DEVICE
SUMMERY" , the increasing pressure is 15 PSID. (Of course I marked at uploaded P&ID with red arrow). My
question is is differential pressure is higher than 15 PSI, what will happen? GT will Trip? or anything will happen?

I know, in this group, there are some intelligent people about "Instrumentation and Control" and also "Mechanical
Engineer". As I am a operations engineer, I expect better answer from them. Of course I will be grateful to them.:)

I of course already read the GE document on Gas fuel system. About above topics, I could not get satisfied answers
from that document. Thats why, I have asked those questions in this group.
 These questions are also what I am concerning. hope someone could help to answer.
 A lot of the answers to these questions can be obtained by going out to the areas where the devices are located and
following tubing/piping lines and, in some cases, applying what one finds to what one knows about hazardous areas
and enclosures, AND referring to the sequencing/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine control panel at
the site.

The latter is difficult--at first--but is the best way to become familiar with the site-specific characteristics that
everyone wants to know; they don't want general statements, they want to know how their turbine operates--and that
can ONLY be determined by looking at the drawings and sequencing/application code of the Speedtronic turbine
control panel at their site.

Many systems and functions and schemes undergo--and underwent--a lot of changes during the time of development
and production, and I can assure you that DLN (Dry Low NOx) systems--even though the OEM claims it's a "mature"
technology--is still undergoing design analysis, modification and improvement today, and will continue to do so for a
long time.

As units were built and installed the system underwent change, and through TILs (Technical Information Letters) and
the like, they continue to undergo change over time. Some of the DLN technologies have "stabilized" and haven't
changed much in the last few years--especially those that are no longer in production (like DLN 2.0). But, a lot of
questions like a couple of these aren't documented because it's assumed people are familiar with hazardous area
classifications and basic piping fundamentals and principles. And, in most cases, by using the P&IDs and the Device
Summary and the Control Specification and the sequencing/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine
control panel the answers can be "devined" or deduced in many cases--especially the ones about, "What does [this or
 41
that] do at my site?" All we can provide for many of those types of questions is general answers and refer the
questioner to the Speedtronic turbine control system at their site. A lot of site-implemented changes were done to
turbines during commissioning that modified as-shipped sequencing/application code--and without being to examine
the running sequencing/application code at the site it's virtually impossible to answer with any specificity.

1) These are valve packing leak-off lines, and by directing them to the atmospheric vent that prevents combustible gas
from collecting in the Gas Valve Compartment and possibly leading to an explosion. All valve packing leaks--some
more than others; so by enclosing the area around the packing boxes and then piping (tubing) the area to an
atmospheric vent away from possible ignition sources that eliminates the leaking gases from collecting in the
compartment where they would be more hazardous.

If a large amount of gas fuel is noticed to be coming out of the "goose-neck" atmospheric vent then the source of the
gas fuel coming out of the atmospheric vent should be identified and resolved as excessive packing leaks, or, in this
case, a leaking solenoid-operated vent valve (VA13-8) can be problematic and should be corrected.

2) These differential pressure transmitters are typically used to calculate the amount of fuel flowing in each of the
three manifold/nozzle assemblies. To be certain of how they're being used at your site--whether or not they actually
perform any control or control loop feedback functions, or any other alarming or protection functions--you really need
to look at the sequencing/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine control at your site. DLN 2.0 was kind a
work-in-progress, and so the sequencing/application code was not very static and was continually being changed
(slightly in some cases; greatly in others) until it was replaced with DLN 2.6. But, in general, when independent gas
control valves (GCV-1, GCV-2 & GCV-3, in this case) were used there was some kind of flow-rate monitoring done,
primarily for monitoring purposes. (I don't recall it ever being used for control purposes, but just as kind of a "check"
to ensure that actual fuel flow-rate splits were close to desired fuel flow-rate splits--and before you ask, I don't recall
ever seeing a calculated flow-rate split for each manifold/system; the sensors were installed so that if problems arose
the data could be collected and used by OEM personnel for troubleshooting).

3) Again, to be certain of exactly what will happen when the strainer differential pressure exceeds 15 psid at YOUR
site you will have to look at the sequencing/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine control system at your
site. I'm pretty sure a Process Alarm will be annunciated when the diff pressure exceeds 15 psid--but if there's other
actions (either immediately, or after a time delay, or if the pressure continues to increase) the only way to tell is to
examine the sequencing/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine control panel at your site.

A high strainer differential pressure means there is dirt/debris in the natural gas which has been captured in the
strainer, and enough dirt/debris will cause one of two things to happen: first, the flow can be restricted such that load
will be restricted--or worse, the desired pressure drops across the various nozzles will not be as desired which can
cause problems with both emissions and combustion hardware problems. Second, the strainer may rupture if the
differential is high enough and exists for long enough, causing the dirt and debris to flow downstream into the control
valves, manifolds, and fuel nozzles, which can lead to plugged fuel nozzle orifices and emissions/combustion
hardware problems.
 Many Many thanx. I made this thread only for you, because, few days ago, you asked me for full P&ID of GAS
FUEL SYSTEM. It is really highly appreciated about all of you answers. I eagerly Waited for your answers. Have a
nice day..
 Thanks for the feedback; glad to be of help.

But, as you can read, you still have a lot of work to do at site to fully understand how things work at your site.

And, it would be most helpful if you could tell us what version (Mark V; Mark VI; Mark Ve) of Speedtronic turbine
control panel the site uses.
 Thanx for your fast reply. In our site, We have speedtronic version of Mark VIe.
 42
But as per your previous answer, "These differential pressure transmitters are typically used to calculate the
amount of fuel flowing in each of the three manifold/nozzle assemblies." As I asked about the function of PDT 96GN-
1, 96GN-2, 96GN-3.

But in GAS FUEL manual about those differential transducers, they said," When a gas passage is being purged, a
minimum gas purge pressure ratio must be maintained to ensure positive airflow across all the fuel nozzles. This
pressure ratio is sufficient to overcome any combustion can-to-can pressure variation. The differential pressure
transmitters measure the gas manifold pressure relative to compressor discharge pressure. These pressures are used
for monitoring and alarm in the control system. "

So, my question is why should we maintain positive airflow across all fuel nozzle? if there is large pressure variation
in any combustion can-to-can what type of problem can be happened?

I am now almost familiar about all equipment in our site. I just curious to know their functions.:):D.

Have a nice day sir.

 Differential pressure transducers (transmitters) are frequently used as part of flow-monitoring equipment (by
measuring differential pressure across an orifice (or orifices, in the case of fuel nozzles).

Without purge air flowing in the gas fuel manifolds/nozzles when there is no gas fuel flowing, hot combustion gases
can flow "backwards" through nozzles and into the manifolds around the axial compressor casing and cause a lot of
damage--a LOT of damage. The purge air also serves to cool the fuel nozzle tips when there is no gas fuel flowing
through them (even though it's at CTD--Compressor Discharge Temperature--it's still lower than the temperature
inside the combustor when fuel is burning).

As you noted, if the difference in combustor pressures is too great then backflow of hot combustion gases through
nozzles from a combustor at higher pressure to a combustor with lower pressure will be more likely to occur--<i>if
there is no purge air flow</i> (which is at a higher pressure than combustor pressure (inside the liner--which we've
discussed before)).

So, purge air is very, very important. It's so important for some turbines (but not ALL turbines) that the turbine
control systems monitor the differential pressure across the nozzles/manifolds to ensure there is flow in the proper
direction(s)--always into the combustor whether it's gas fuel or purge air. The turbine control system may alarm a low
differential, or it might cause the load to be reduced, or it might result in a turbine shutdown (orderly reduction of
load and speed all the way to Cooldown), or even a turbine trip.

This is another possible use of the differential pressure transmitters--in fact, the output of the same transmitters can be
used for multiple purposes, but only a review of the application code running in the Mark VIe at your site will reflect
exactly how the output(s) are being used at your site. Again, control schemes have changed over the production lives
of the turbines, and will continue to do so.

Good to hear you seem to be developing a relationship with someone who has knowledge of the turbine control
system (because it was probably a Mark V or Mark VI before it because a Mark VIe, and it's likely that little has
changed, though some things probably did, when the control system was upgraded to Mark VIe--that's one of the
ways improved control and protection schemes get implemented, during control system upgrades).

A large pressure variation in one or more combustors usually occurs when there's a serious problem with the fuel
nozzles (multiple orifices/nozzles are plugged), or the combustion liners are damaged (cracking which can become
small to large holes), or there's a problem with the transition pieces or the seals between the combustion liner and the
transition pieces (the "hula skirt" seals); etc. This results in a very different hot gas path temperature entering the first
stage turbine nozzles from that combustor (or combustors) which means the turbine exhaust temperatures will be very
different. Exhaust temperature differentials are called "exhaust temperature spreads"--high spreads mean high
 43
differential temperatures. Very high exhaust temperature spreads will result in a turbine trip--to protect the
combustors from even further damage caused by combustion problems which will also cause high combustor
differential pressures (with respect to each other).

Firing temperature of Gas Turbine

What the 'Firing Temperature'(TTRF1) of a gas turbine indicates? weather the actual combusion temp or TIT
(Turbine inlet temp)? as, the TIT is less than the 'combustion chamber' temp due to mixing of 1st stage nozzle cooling
air.
 In GE terminology, Firing temperature is the temperature just on the downstream of S1N. TIT on the other hand
refers to the temp of the hot gases just upstream of the S1N. Thus, as per GE, the TIT is much more than the firing
temp coz the S1N cooling air lowers the temp of gases to bring it down to Firing temperature. So, TTRF is the temp
of the hot gases just downstream of S1N.
 TTRF1 is the calculated value of "firing temperature", which in GE-speak is the temperature of the combustion
gases at the trailing edge of the first-stage turbine nozzle. As GT MECHANIC says, air-cooled turbine nozzles
decrease the temperature of the combustion gases entering the first-stage turbine nozzle, and what GE is trying to
control or limit is the temperature of the combustion gases which are being directed on the first-stage turbine buckets.

TTRF1 is used as the variable in several COMParators which compare TTRF1 to setpoints to determine when DLN
combustion modes should be switched during loading and unloading. There is no thermocouple or pyrometer or
temperature sensing device (though laser devices have been tested by some companies) used on GE-design heavy-
duty gas turbines to monitor the firing temperature--it's just a calculated value.

When all the inputs to the TTRF1 calculation are working correctly, it's a very good approximation of the temperature
of the combustion gases at the trailing edge of the first-stage turbine nozzles. And, in a DLN combustor is
proportional to the combustion gas temperatures in the combustors.

But, that's all TTRF1 is: a calculated value of the temperature of the combustion gases at the trailing edge of the first-
stage turbine nozzle. And, usually, the only use for TTRF1 is to determine when to change combustion modes as a
DLN combustor-equipped unit is loaded or unloaded.
 The Temperature Control System will limit fuel
flow to the gas turbine to maintain internal operating temperatures within design limitations of turbine hot gas path
parts. The highest temperature in the gas turbine occurs in the flame zone of the combustion chambers. The
combustion gas in that zone is diluted by cooling air and flows into the turbine section through the first stage nozzle.
The temperature of that gas as it exits the first stage nozzle is known as the “firing temperature” of the gas turbine; it
is this temperature that must be limited by the control system.

From thermodynamic relationships, gas turbine

cycle performance calculations, and known site
conditions, firing temperature can be determined as a function of exhaust temperature and the pressure ratio across the
turbine; the latter is determined from the measured compressor discharge pressure (CPD). The temperature control
system is designed to measure and control turbine exhaust temperature rather than firing temperature because it is
impractical to measure temperatures directly in the combustion chambers or at the turbine inlet. This indirect control
of turbine firing temperature is made practical by utilizing known gas turbine aero– and thermo–dynamic
characteristics and using those to bias the exhaust temperature signal, since the exhaust temperature alone is not a true
indication of firing temperature.

Firing temperature can also be approximated as a

function of exhaust temperature and fuel flow (FSR) and as a function of exhaust temperature and generator output
(DWATT). Either FSR or megawatt exhaust temperature control curves are used as back–up to the primary CPD–
biased temperature control curve.The lines of constant firing temperature are used in the control system to limit gas
 44
turbine operating temperatures, while the constant exhaust temperature limit protects the exhaust system during
start– up.
 I'm working with 2 GE Frame 9E gas turbines. Recently during a planned shutdown, we conducted the offline
wash and replaced all the air filters for both GTs. Everything seem to be working fine and the machines were able to
reach base load as usual. However after about 5-6 hours, the CPD of one of the GT started to reduce followed by the
loss of load. The second GT which undergone the same washing and filter replacement seems to be working fine.

My question is, what can be the reason if the CPD is low and the exhaust temperature is at maximum 565C and still
the machine couldn't pick up load? Can it be caused by some defect in the fuel nozzles which in turn result in
overburning? Im saying this because the rate of fuel gas entering the problem turbine is lesser than the normal turbine
and the load is back to normal when the online washing is done.
 Your problem is like related to some problem with the CPD transmitter(s) (most larger units have three CPD
transmitters).

If you look at the CPD-biased exhaust temperature control curve, it has a negative slope, which means that as CPD
decreases the exhaust temperature reference will increase, to what's known as the "isothermal" temperature value,
which is near 565 C for many Frame 9Es.

So, if the CPD transmitter output decreases, the exhaust temperature reference will increase, and the load will
decrease (which, has been noted elsewhere on control.com, is not what one would expect, but it's the way it works).

So, use the Prevote Data Display to check the value(s) of CPD you will likely see that one or more of the feedback
signals is low or decreasing.

Since this just occurred after a water wash, it's possible there is a valve problem or water someplace there shouldn't
be.
 Verify if there is no drain drain valve remained open
 Compressor rotating stall can affect both, CPD and exhaust temperature. CPD will decrease and exhaust
temperature will increase due to air flow chocking by stall cell, and as a result the turbine load will decrease. on line
washing may correct the problem because we can assume it as a type of surge/stall protections (inlet air injection) the
washing water injection may work, couldn't it??
 If an axial compressor experiences a stall condition, it's not very likely that it will keep running for very long, long
enough to degrade performance and try to initiate on-line water washing.

There will likely be high vibration and eventually the compressor blades (rotating and stationary) will likely start to
break off if it was allowed to continue to operate for very long.

If water was injected in to the compressor that would increase the mass flow through the compressor which would
likely exacerbate the stall condition.

No compressor should be operated at or near any stall limit for any appreciable period of time. If a turbine control
system is "detecting" and annunciating a stall, then the first thing to be done is to verify the condition of the
instrumentation.

firing temperature calculation

I am a maintenance engineer and I am trying to estimate the proper interval for gas turbine overhaul, so I need to
calculate firing temperature but I don't know how calculate it. It's my pleasure if any body could help me.
 I presume you are asking about the turbine firing temperature rating, not how to calculate the exhaust temperature
reference.

GE defines firing temperature as either the temperature of the combustion gases leaving the first-stage turbine nozzles
or the temperature of the combustion gases entering the first-stage turbine nozzle. The distinction is whether or not
 45
the first stage turbine nozzles are air-cooled or not. The air used for cooling the first-stage turbine nozzles
discharges into the combustion gas flow-path, decreasing the gas temperature very slightly so the idea is that the gas
temperature entering air-cooled nozzles can be increased very slightly, increasing output very slightly.

Firing temperature is not measured (today!), and is only a theoretical number. When the unit is operating on CPD-
biased exhaust temperature control the unit is theoretically operating at a constant firing temperature regardless of
ambient conditions. CPD-biased exhaust temperature control is a way of "estimating" a constant firing temperature
using compressor discharge pressure and exhaust temperature. Empirical data defines a direct relationship between
firing temperature, compressor discharge pressure, and exhaust temperature.

So, since firing temperature can't be (today!) and isn't (today!) measured, exhaust temperature control is how the
turbine control system limits firing temperature to protect the machine while maximizing output.

Machines equipped with DLN combustors have a "firing temperature reference" function that does a reasonably good
job of trying to calculate a firing temperature, but it's just an approximation of firing temperature and is only used for
determining combustion mode switching. On a new and clean machine, it is a pretty good indication of firing
temperature, but it's not "the" firing temperature.

I don't know how to calculate a machine's firing temperature. I think it's more of a machine rating defined by
components (compressor, combustors, nozzles, shroud blocks, seals, etc.) more than a calculated number. I have seen
firing temperatures listed on gas turbine performance "curves", typically used to estimate gas turbine output based on
ambient temperature.

I think this is more or a question for your GE parts and/or service representative. Give him or her your turbine serial
number, and they should be able to tell you very quickly what the machine's firing temperature rating is.

Hope this helps!


I give you equ. that=
Tf=Tx* pcd/p wher:
Tf= firing Temp.
Tx= exhuste Temp.
pcd= air comperessor pres.
p= baromatric pres.

 So, let's give this a try:

Let's take the isothermal exhaust temperature (Tx) from a Frame 7EA, 593 deg C, and a typical compressor discharge
pressure (pcd), 10.87 barg, and sea-level barometric pressure (p), 1 bara.

Tf = 593 * 10.87 / 1 = 6445.91 deg C.

That doesn't seem remotely correct.

 It is seems there is writing mistake as also mentioned by CSA. You are requested to corrent the same.
 Thanks alot engineering maybe your equ.not correct exactly so must you to writting another equ.more
accuracy.....OK ???
 Hello, our company, Advanced Automation Technolgies, Inc., actually calculates firing temperature of gas
turbines by measuring the inlet compressor air mass flow with ultrasonics and adding in the fuel gas information. It is
a very accurate estimation and our flow measurement system installed in the inlet system is very accurate within
0.5%. We validate our information by our ability to predict the exhaust gas temperature and 02 content. Even the
OEMs are taking notice.
 46

Not only do we get Turbine Inlet Temperature, we get Turbine efficiency and exhaust gas mass flow. A lot of great
diagnostic information, including icing buildup.
 I think my mistake originate from a chart with "Delta firing temp." in x axis versus "maintenance factor" in y axis.
This factor takes "the load effect on part life" into account. If it doesn't possible to calculate firing temp. so what
should i do with this factor? If it is necessary i can post u the estimating overhaul interval instruction.

It's my pleasure if u could help me.

 Thanks for your complete answer and helping me. I read your answer again and I get the point.
but as u know operating load amount affect overhaul interval highly because with changing the load the firing temp.
and consequantly the combustion and hot gas path parts life time also will change.
do u have any suggestion for me how consider this effect?
 When you post questions you should post some information about the equipment you are asking about. Most of the
questions on this site are related to GE-design heavy duty gas turbines; we have very few posts about Siemens units.
If we had known in the beginning this was about a non GE-design unit, you might have received a more appropriate
reply.

Personally, I'm not familiar with Siemens units and how they calculate "firing temperature". I am familiar with how
combustion turbine maintenance outages are determined, and each manufacturer seems to do so a little differently, but
basically the same.

The length of time at Base Load or Peak Load or any other higher load is to be factored into the maintenance outage
planning. Less time at Base Load would generally prolong the interval between maintenance outages, since typical
maintenance outages are usually stated for units operating continually at Base Load (which is something of an ideal
operating condition for the turbine and is the most efficient operating condition).

Units operating occasionally at loads higher than Base Load (Peak Load, or Peak Reserve Load) usually multiply the
time operated at these loads by some factor greater than 1.0, since the firing temperature at these loads is higher than
Base Load and therefore the hot gas path parts are subjected to higher thermal stresses.

I'm afraid I can't help with your specific question as it seems to be related to Siemens units and their maintenance
planning recommendations. I would suggest contacting Siemens for assistance with your questions and planning; they
would likely be very helpful if they will be selling parts and/or services for the outage(s).

But, again, as you have opened several posts about "generic" equipment (gas turbine, compressor) please provide
some basic information such as manufacturer, rating, drive (generator or mechanical (compressor)), etc. We can
probably be more helpful with some more specific information.
 Thanks for your assistance
I am working with a GE-Design heavy Duty gas turbine: MS-5002C and a Siemens gas turbine type 10MV 2A. It’s
my pleasure if you provide me for some information about above GE gas turbine. Some additional information is:
Simple cycle
Centrifugal compressor drive
No water/steam injection
Fuel: natural gas
Continues operation
 GE have a publication for help with planning gas turbine maintenance: GER-3620. I'm sure you can contact any
GE Energy Sales or Service office and give them that publication number and ask for a copy and they will send it to
you.

It has everything you're looking for.

 47
Or, perhaps someone here has an electronic copy they will send you if you post your email address (to avoid spam,
I would suggest posting it something like this your dot name at company dot com).
 I am not sure, what is your main driver behind your original question. Why would like to calculate the firing
temperature? For maintenance purposes or for performance analyses? For a GE design GT, the firing temperature is
calculated in the control system in the complex exhaust algorithm block.The primary exh. temp. control reference is
calculated as below:
TTRXP = TTKn_I - TTKn_S * (CPD - TTKn_C) + TTRXDSP + CT_BIAS + WQJG.
The secondary exh. temp control reference is calculated as below:
TTRXS = TTKn_I - TTKn_M * (FSR - TTKn_K) + TTRXDSP + CT_BIAS + TNH_BIAS + WQJG.
For two shaft (mechanical drive) GT's the bias as as following: TNH_BIAS = TTKRXN * (100%TNH - TNH)-
TTKRX2 when L3TFLT is TRUE,
else TNH_BIAS = TTKRXN * (100%TNH - TNH). All this information is also available from your OEM manuals
(control spec.) or can be checked from the control panel. As you can see, it seems all a bit complicated. Again, if your
intention is to evaluate the maintenance interval, there are other easy ways to do it. Use or check the historical trend of
spread. Operating your GT on high spreads will shorten the life of the buckets (cold spots).
Normally the OEM identified, based on their experience, maintenance intervals. OEM advices GT specified
maintenance intervals to their clients.
The standard interval is based on the fired hours:
|8k=CI|16k=CI|24k=HGP|32k+CI|40k=CI|48k=MO|. In order to determine the exactly interval hours, you need to
compensate the fired hours based on the factors such as, starts, trips, fuel type etc. The plant managers are usually
aiming for higher production. Therefore they would like to extend the interval hours and shorten the outage hours.
One way to this is, upgrading your GT's components such as the liners, X-fire tubes etc. GE provides this upgrade
under the so called EXTONDOR kit. You may contact them for further inquiries. This upgrade will allow you to
extend the interval hours. Instead of performing the CI every 8k, it will be 12k and instead of HGP you may consider
to do the so called LTPI. This upgrade is in general economical justified. Before reaching the HGP or LTPI your
machine will produce 2X4k hrs extra. The centrifugal compressor interval hours may also accommodate this
extension.
I have that publication but I have two problem with that.

 First: There is a graph in that publication which shows "maintenance factor result from increasing load from base
load" against "delta firing temperature again resulting from increasing load from it's base amount"

Now I have two question:

1. How should I know that in which load my turbine is working?
2. What is delta firing temperature correspond to the increased load?

Second: What are emergency start up and fast loading start up?

At the end I apologize u for my inability in represent my question clearly.

 I don't believe GE calculates firing temperature in the Speedtronic, except as a combustion mode switching
function on DLN machines.

Exhaust temperature reference is calculated; yes. But not firing temperature.

And Sheila's never said what kind of control system her GE-design heavy duty gas turbine has.

The exhaust temperature control reference "curve" represents a constant firing temperature, but that firing temperature
is only expressed in the rating of the machine, not in the control system (except for DLN machines, and that's only a
calculated firing temperature reference; actual firing temperature is still never measured).
 I Thank u highly for your all assistance and your helpful information and uploading the file. I completely withdraw
calculating firing temperature.
 48
But one another question please:

In the file you posted for me there is a formula:

Factored Hours = (K + M x I) x (G + 1.5D + AfH + 6P)
In witch:
G = Annual Base Load Operating hours on Gas Fuel
D = Annual Base Load Operating hours on Distillate Fuel
P = Annual Peak Load Operating Hours

So how should I know how many my turbine’s load is? when it works on base load and when peak load? That is how
should I calculate P, D & G?

And if at some times my turbine work in part load or some load between base and peak, could we use this formula?

Thank u again
 Another individual, sd, uploaded the file; the thanks for that belongs to him. I haven't downloaded the file to look
at it yet.

As was said before, there *should be* timers to accumulate the time at any load above Base Load, and if the unit is
capable of loads above Base Load (Peak Load, and possibly Peak Reserve Load), there should be a means for
selecting that load.

You still haven't told us what kind of turbine control system is being used to control the unit at your site. I don't know
how to tell you to look for the 'timers and counters' to determine the number of fired hours and the number of fired
starts and the number of emergency trips.

Ask one of the operators, or one of the operation supervisors, if the unit is capable of loads in excess of (above) Base
Load. Ask them if the units ever operate above Base Load, and if so, ask them to tell you how they know how much
time the unit runs at loads in excess of Base Load. (They should be familiar with the timers and counters of the unit
and should be providing the information you require.)

If I can get a chance this week to download the file and have a read, I might be able to refer you to the specific
section, if it exists, to tell you if GE makes any distinction between Base Load and loads less than Base Load. They
may not; they consider any fired time below Base Load as the same as Base Load. I'm not a maintenance engineer and
have not been involved in planning maintenance outages; I've only been the "beneficiary" of maintenance planning, or
the lack thereof, and the poor execution of planned maintenance (like skipping critical control system checks because
the mechanical outage ran well past schedule and there was no "float" in the schedule for such problems).
 The correct formula to calculate the firing temperature comes from the basic thermodynamic equations. Here the
temperature needs to be put in "absolute" values and not the way CSA has calculated.

Say the values are now in English units. The correct equation is:

Tfire = (TTXM+460) x (Press Ratio)exp((k-1)/k)-460

For air-fuel mixture, you will have k = 1.26 approx.

For the parameters that you have, you will get T-fire = 2090F.
Hope this helps.
Combustion Engineer
 I'm updating this post because of the many inquiries we are getting for Turbine Inlet Temperature calculation.
Earlier this year, we changed our name from Advanced Automation Technologies, Inc to Real Time Power, Inc, to
reflect our true market.
 49
Our new contact information is below.
 I want to know what was reply (later on to the question) of this message. I don't see reply here. Did you provide or
if possible can u provide now? want to know about GE7FA timers for base load and lower than base load operation in
addition to peak load?:)
 I did not get a chance to download the file. I've since been told there is a newer revision (GER-3620R--the last
alpha character designates the revision; the "higher" the character (R is higher than K) the newer the revision).

I would refer you to GER-3620; that's the "bible". I believe all of the conditions are spelled out in that document.

As for how "Base Load" firing time is calculated, you should be able to refer to the sequencing/application code
running in the Speedtronic turbine control panel(s) at your site.