Hypnosis Mastery Kevin Hogan Manual LRG

Hypnosis Master – Kevin Hogan
How To Use People's Core Psychological

Drivers & Hypnotic Subliminal
Suggestions To Covertly Persuade
Others To Do Your Bidding
© Street Hypnosis Publishing All Rights Reserved 1

Contents
Page
WELCOME  3
PHOTO & BIO OF PERSON HERE INTRODUCTION  3
INTRODUCTION  4
INTERVIEW – PART 1  5
INTERVIEW – PART 2  23
SEMINAR 1 – PART 1  41
END OF SEMINAR  138
MEET YOUR HOST  138

Welcome
Welcome To The Hypnosis Masters Series
In this series, you will be getting interviews and special seminars from some of the
world’s best Masters of Hypnosis. Each Master Hypnotist is a specialist in one particular
field and will be revealing his or her hypnosis secrets for you.
Meet This Month’s Master: Dr. Kevin Hogan
Dr. Kevin Hogan started his hypnotic career when he

was given a set of very rare recordings of a seminar
given by the two founders of NLP. He was instantly
fascinated and spent the following years studying
everything he could find related to influence &
persuasion.
At first his approach focused purely on the language for

influencing people. However, he had a few experiences
that showed him how culture clashes and language
barriers could negate his language of influence.
So he began his research anew. This time he focused

on psychological drivers and subliminal suggestions as
additional keys for influencing others.
His work, called covert hypnosis, now focuses on 3 main branches for influencing the
behavior of others:
1. Storytelling
2. Subliminal Cues
3. Psychological Drivers
In this series of interviews he reveals the heart of his persuasion method as well as the
core ideas that led him to make the discoveries that he did. You'll quickly discover how
you too can use his simple techniques to get others to change the way they think, feel
or behave.
Kevin's website is: KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis

Introduction
Welcome to StreetHypnosis.com. My name is Igor Ledochowski and what you’re about
to hear is a very special interview with Master Hypnotist Kevin Hogan, which was
recorded for us at a Private Hypnosis Club as part of our Interviews with the Hypnosis
Masters Series.
As you will hear, Kevin is a Master of covert and subliminal hypnosis. He specializes in
covert techniques of influence and persuasion using subtle cues in our everyday
environment to create the right conditions for influence and change.
Listen on at the end of the Interview to discover how to get your hands on a five-hour
seminar revealing his amazing covert hypnosis method.

Interview – Part 1
Igor: Welcome to StreetHypnosis.com. My name is Igor Ledochowski and I’m very
excited to have Dr. Kevin Hogan here, this month’s Master Hypnotist from
KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. Now just a little bit about Kevin Hogan. He is
pretty much the person that started the whole process of covert hypnosis back
in the late ‘80s, I believe.
We’re going to talk a little bit about what covert hypnosis is, comparing it to
similar ideas like NLP or Ericksonian hypnosis and pulling some distinctions
between that. Keep in the back of your mind as you listen to this, this is the
person that really opened or created the feel of covert hypnosis.
Kevin first, welcome aboard, I’m very excited to have you here with us.
Kevin: Thank you, Igor it’s nice to be here tonight.
Igor: There are so many different places that we could start and talk about in terms
of what you’ve done. You’ve been in this field for how long now? It’s like 20
years roughly?
Kevin: Twenty-two years now.
Igor: That’s some solid time put into this and all the time you’ve been really
developing and evolving this idea of covert hypnosis.
Before we look at that in particular, can you tell us a little bit about how
you actually came into the field of hypnosis in the first place? What was
your background and how did you fall into this whole thing?
Kevin: Everybody has books on their shelves when they’re a kid, right? I had Hypnosis
and Mysticism of India by Ormond McGill when I was a little kid, maybe 12
years old. We didn’t have a lot of money, but I had that hypnosis book, so that
was the very beginning.
Then as time went on, I became very interested in persuasion, nonverbal

communication and all that kind of stuff. In 1987, I got a job working at the
Veteran’s Incentive Project here in Minneapolis. A former Vietnam vet had
started this organization and he wanted me to come in as a fundraising director,
which I was very happy to do because it was homeless vets. These guys did
amazing things for our country and we treated them very poorly, so I really
wanted to do something valuable. That was cool.
Then one day I was working and a lady wanted to make a contribution/
donation. She had no money, but she had this box of audio tapes and she
came into my office, which was a very humble little office, like 8 x 8. It was tiny.

She asked if I was the fundraising director, or something along those lines. I
said yes and she said I want to give these to you. Here was a box of tapes with
handwritten Bandler, Grinder, Delozier and I think there was one other person’s
name of them. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at them.
Igor: Like the old school NLP big masters.
Kevin: You got it. There were maybe 25, 30, 35 tapes. I thanked her and took them
home. I didn’t know who Richard Bandler and John Grinder were. I didn’t have
a clue and didn’t even care. I thought it was odd that she brought it, but it was
cool. Then, of course, I started listening to them at home and I was like, oh my
God, this stuff is amazing.
Igor: You must have been really excited because, for those of you listening, it’s
virtually impossible to find any material with Grinder actually speaking live and
Grinder and Bandler being in the same training at the same time, which is when
the real excitement, the real magic of the whole movement was happening. It’s
very hard to get a hold of that. You got a box of 30 tapes of that; that must have
been amazing stuff to get your hands on.
Kevin: The thing was, when the gift was given to me, I had no idea what I had in my
hands. It wasn’t until maybe 10 years later, when I loaned them to Devin
Hastings, who’s a good friend of mind and great hypnotist. He’s like Kev, do
you know what you have here? I’m like yeah well, now I do, of course, but at
the time I didn’t have a clue.
I didn’t need to know what it was because when you listened, there was a real
magic. It was like breaking new ground. Very cool and I have never heard
probably any of this kind of thinking before. These processes, the thought
process, the presuppositions or hypnotic language. Nothing compared to how
it’s put together today and frankly, it was much more interesting, raw, it was
cool and it was amazing and changed the direction of my life a lot.
What’s neat is that the next year, like 1988 or 1989, I left the non-profit
organization. I raised money for them and then I started my own non-profit
organization. It was called Success Dynamics Foundation for kids who were
drug abusers, because in 1983 I overdosed on drugs and I wanted to learn how
to get inside people’s heads and actually go okay, you don’t want to do that
again.
Those tapes influenced me and how I developed this non-profit organization,

which was during the same years that I was researching the Psychology of
Persuasion, which turned out to be a worldwide, it took six years to get the
book into print. It was horrible. We got 241 rejection letters. We didn’t have a
computer to print out all these cool things. These were all typewritten.

Igor: Right, this was actually in the old days when you had to actually really sweat
over each copy.
Kevin: Oh God, it was terrible and was embarrassing too because I’ve never been a
great writer, but I really believed in the book because it was a cool book. It was
a great book and it had so much I wanted to share.
Anyway, the book finally made it into print right about the same time that I was
completing my work with the drug prevention work, after seven years. Then I
was going to start my own hypnosis school. When the book came out, I decided
at that point to switch and open up the Minnesota Institute of Hypnosis and
Hypnotherapy.
We made it a licensed school, did all the stuff right and it was at that point that
the National Guild of Hypnotists, which is a – I don’t know how to say it exactly
– they’re an association for not professional, we’ll call it, hypnotists or people
who are not academicians, if you will.
Igor: Medically trained in psychiatry, etc., for everyday hypnotherapists, stage

hypnosis people like that, it’s kind of a like a body, an umbrella body that has
some perks.
Kevin: Exactly and it was cool. I was accepted very readily and it was great. It was
there that I got a chance to actually start to refine my work and find out what
would work in front of our audience. So I was able to develop not only the
therapeutic aspect and the sales aspect – because I was always interested in
persuasion – but also what works from the stage stuff.
I was able to do that, I was given a big platform every year. I could do as much
as I wanted to do and I took full advantage of that to work with hypnotists. I got
to learn not only what they know, but also I was able to figure out what
strategies, skills, processes and stuff like that would work from the front of the
room as well. So that’s a real big overview right there.
Igor: Now you also did something very interesting that I like. I took a similar route,
which is you took a very broad view of hypnosis and you were willing to learn
from any environment.
For example, something that I did some years ago and I was delighted to hear
that you did the exact same thing. You actually ended up at some point joining
a cult just to find out how they do those things that they do to bring people in.
The good things they do, the bad things they do and so on. First, that’s a pretty
brave move.
♦ How did you get into that and why did you do it?

Kevin: Well, I was writing the book, Psychology of Persuasion. I grew up in a Christian
fundamentalist Christian and a very cool church. I mean there were wonderful
people, but it is by every definition a cult and it still is to this day.
It shaped by thinking and it still does to this day in the things that I do and
believe, even though I’m not a Christian anymore. I’m agnostic. I wanted to
know what it was that was so powerful about that organization and group of
people that brainwashed me. It’s not a terrible thing or an evil thing. It’s just
what was it that caused me to be who I was because it really had a massive
programming into my life.
I decided that I was going to pick something very, very different and I wanted to
look at all of this from a different angle. So I went to an organization, a sort of
non-Christian group. I walked in the door just as anybody else would and I took
a personality test. It was beautiful. This was 1991 or 1992 I’ve now written the
Psychology of Persuasion. Everything except that last two chapters I think it
was and this is where I would talk about brainwashing.
This organization was so good – and I’m using the word good, but I should be
using the word effective. They’re so effective at what they do. So anyway, I
went in and I studied and did all the steps in the order that they do. There came
a point where you start to believe in the way of this organization. That were that
good at what they were doing.
Here I was going in as a researcher and I was taking advantage of all the stuff
that you could do with the group. I was learning a great deal. A lot of it was very
cool. A lot of it was very effective and that’s one of the reasons that this
organization is now a multi, multi, $100 million organization worldwide.
The reason that they’re so effective is because the early work that they do with
you is so persuasive it’s so powerful how they bring in you off the street.
They’re able to actually capture you and captivate you from the very first
second you walk in the door and now you are going to become a member of
this group. You just will. They’re so good at what they do. It’s a learning
experience. I would recommend that other people to this though.
Igor: Exactly. I joined this same group as you. We’ve talked about this before in the
past. Something that I found particular interesting and I think you had a similar
experience, is that whilst on the one side, one of the typical things that cults do
– for some reason, most cults hate the idea of hypnosis, but then they use it
effectively.
They use it very directly, but just because it’s in this context of this sort of
psycho religious thing and they don’t use hypnosis ever. Actually, they’re going
around slamming hypnosis. Suddenly, no one has any idea that what they’re
doing is actually hypnotic.

I’m sitting there as a hypnotist. I’d been well trained. I’m seeing all the
maneuvers. I’m going, you guys rock. If it wasn’t that you’re kind of sucking
people into this rather, shall we say unhealthy system, some of the stuff you’re
doing could be such a tremendous force for good. Sometimes I literally felt like
standing up on my chair and clapping and saying, you guys rock.
Kevin: Well, I can tell you my experience was the same. I would go through certain
parts of the day and I could spend a full day with this group maybe four days a
week and I did that for probably four or five months. It actually got a little scary
for my family because they thought that I was kind of lost to the group. Frankly,
toward the end, I sort of thought I was lost to the group too because I was
getting so much out of it.
There’s a transitional point though, Igor, where it went from getting therapeutic
benefit and learning all these cool communication and educational processes
that I still use to this day and I still use them in a teaching way or a therapeutic
way. I rarely do therapy anymore, but when I do I still use a lot of the stuff I
learned. But it transfers into this very interesting belief structure, which is truly
fascinating and truly unhealthy.
At that point, it becomes the opposite. It’s the exact opposite. So instead of
having this great opportunity, now it becomes terrifying. Someday we’ll talk
about the whole story but it’s an amazing experience, maybe for my memoirs.
Igor: Well, I look forward to reading them because I know there are some very
interesting adventures there. The lesson to be drawn out, just to emphasize to
people is first, you can find hypnosis under many guises. Second, as long as
you’re using hypnosis as a force for good, then the things you’re doing are
tremendous.
When you start limiting people’s choices and really trying to force a particular
idea that may have no merit to it, when the idea becomes more important than
the person, that’s when you start getting into trouble, be that as a therapist, a
teacher, a salesperson or, in this case, a cult or religious organization.
You have to have something that elevates the person and makes them a better
person, rather than something that tries to force the person into something that
may mangle them.
Kevin: This is one of the great things about this. I’m very fortunate that I’ve gotten to
meet a lot of cool people over the years and some people in the seduction
business. We’ve sat down and had conversations and it’s always interesting.

They’re very talented people, but the thing is it’s not necessary to have this evil
genius mentality because when you’re good at hypnosis, you can actually be a
decent person and live a good life and have the same exact results as the evil
genius is getting, but you can sleep at night.
Igor: Actually, I was talking to another one of the Master Hypnotists on this Series
and we were talking about the idea of power. This idea of hypnotic power or the
personal power the hypnotist has that’s mesmerizing, this authority thing. One
of the things that came out is that when he was developing his particular brand
of, shall we say power, the first year or so people were frightened of him.
People think that’s an emanation of power, but he said that’s not really the
interesting part.
The bit where he became truly “powerful” was when he started integrating all
these changes that were happening inside of in. So then rather than people
being repelled or frightened a little bit by these things he would do, people
started getting drawn to him. People like him even to the point where the dogs
that used to bark at him would come up and wag their tail at him.
That, to me, is true power, the kind of power that you don’t have to exert over
someone. You just be your happy self and the world around you just aligns
itself to yourself because it’s better to be in your reality that out of it.
A lot of people get confused at the idea that they have power over someone by
forcing someone into a reality, instead of creating a rich reality that is so
damned seductive because we’re all better off being in it that there’s no
resistance at this point. There can’t be any resistance because why would you
resist a good thing.
Kevin: There are people who are so elegant – and you’re one of these people too
who’s very elegant and articulate and my guess is – and I haven’t seen you live
in person, but my guess is that when you walk, you have a presence about you
and that when you’re in a room, you have a presence. It’s very interesting that
there are people who have learned sort of personal mastery, self-mastery thing.
I think of people like McCartney, Lennon, Elton John, Elvis and people like this
who are singers who you didn’t have to know that they were McCartney or
Elvis. When they walk into a room, you feel a sense of uniqueness and a
presence that’s nonverbally emanated and it’s just that they’re so unique and
they’re so okay with who they are that they’re comfortable in any environment.
These people have power because they’re comfortable.
Think about the President of the United States right now. Maybe four years
from now this will change. I doubt it. This man looks like he’s comfortable in
every single environment that you see him, no matter what the environment is.

When you have that kind of power, you don’t need power over other people.
You have power with them. Anyway, yes, that’s exactly right.
Igor: I think just to embellish the point you were making, I think that’s why in the
entertainment industry, people keep emphasizing this idea that you’ve got to
feel the love. That’s exactly what it is. It sounds weird because I know I was
attracted to hypnosis for the power angle in the first place and to suddenly
wake up to the idea that the real power you’re looking for – and it’s something I
like to teach people now.
I can teach you all these tricks and techniques and tools and they’re very
powerful, but really if you want to be one of the true greats, then you have to
learn to apply the stuff to yourself because, when it comes from the inside out,
then stuff happens and its good stuff.
Kevin: The learning process is so great, especially in the fields of hypnosis or NLP. If
you can take, learn, integrate it into your life and you actually start doing some
of the things that work and that you find valuable in everyday life, then you
develop this sense of mastery because you become good at yourself.
You become good at being yourself, you become comfortable in your own skin,
then as soon as you are comfortable being you, then all of the sudden people
look at you and go God, I want to be just like that person right there. That’s
what you’re looking for.
Igor: There’s a funny quote I remember seeing from one of the new age authors
whose a little edgy. I’ve always found this very funny. First, he wrote a book
called The Trick to Money Is Having Some, which in itself is a great title.
One thing that’s always stuck with me, he said, ‘If you really want to get
wealthy, there’s a very simple trick. You work on yourself and you become such
a cool person that people want to hang around you and when they show up you
bill them.’
I just thought it’s funny, but think about it. That’s really what a lot of people do.
The stars you’re talking about. The Lennons and Elvis Presley’s of the world,
they made fortunes because people liked hanging around them. They liked
buying their records because it made them feel good. They liked going to their
concerts because they felt good in their presence and then the records were
just ways of revivifying that same feel-good experience.
That’s what people are buying. They’re not buying music. I mean you can sing
to yourself. What they’re buying is how they feel when they’re being exposed to
that other person’s presence, words or sounds whatever you call it. That’s
something that is under-emphasized, particularly in our industry and I would

probably make this the most important point in art history, if I could persuade
enough people to see it that way.
Kevin: Absolutely. It’s so fun to be at the front of the room and for people to come up
and say hey, can I talk to you? I need your time. Then you go back to your
room at the end of the night and you’re totally exhausted, yet you have given
people power because they look at you and they go, I want to be just like him.
Then they sort of take their jumper cables, attach them to your energy field,
your brain and all the sudden they go home juiced and they write about you and
say amazing things. A big part of it is that people still know that this is a pretty
cool person, even if they don’t know its John Lennon, Paul McCartney or like an
Elton John. They still know there’s something unique and cool about them.
I’m telling you, I go to Las Vegas a lot and you can always tell people who are
clones versus people who are not clones. There’s a very strong feeling that you
get around people. Part of it is just the way that they look. They have a more
unique dress, they have a more unique way of looking, a different kind of
appearance, maybe the hair is totally bald, maybe it’s very, very long and that’s
just one thing.
I mean there are tons of different ways. They don’t dress the same as other
people, for example. There are just little uniquenesses and people who allow
themselves to be unique often end up with really cool lives and often the girl
too.
Igor: For sure. The other thing that comes out of that, which is very important is,
when you find people like that, who are inspirations in your life – I know I’ve had
many – part of what these inspirations do is they guide you, show you by
however they live their lives and whoever they are. They inspire you to be more
of yourself.
If they inspire you to be more like them, then they’re not true inspirators. They
try to get you to copy or mimic for whatever reasons, but the ones that really
get it, like you said, the John Lennons of the world, the Elvis Presley’s of the
world, Erickson was another one for me especially. They give you something
where you suddenly realize, I don’t necessarily want to be him.
I want to be my version of him. I want to be more myself, so much myself that

all these things happen to me also.
Kevin: Dennis Felix wrote a book called How to Get Rich. Dennis is the guy who
publishes – I don’t know if he still does to this day, but he published Maxim and
FHM. He used to publish PC World and Computer Shopper and all these
magazines. He’s a hundred million dollar millionaire several times over.

At the beginning of his career, he had John Lennon there in London. They’re
both British, of course. So Felix is visiting John Lennon in 1970 on the set when
they’re doing the song Imagine and the album. Felix goes in the studio and he
sings exactly like Chuck Berry, okay? He comes out of the studio.
He nails the song and he says John, what do you think? Just like Chuck Berry?
Do I have the same talent? He says yes and that’s why you better go to
publishing because you are Chuck Berry and he’s already been here.
The whole point is that you can’t be Chuck Berry too, or Kevin Hogan too or
Igor too. You have to be you too. That’s who you need to be. You start that by
collecting all kinds of cool stuff from other people, but then letting yourself, your
own uniqueness come out. That’s what John told Dennis Felix and that’s a
pretty cool concept.
Igor: I’m glad you’re saying this because this is something that I try to emphasize to
people over and over again. Sometimes I get a feeling that they don’t really
believe me, but I think this is so true. I spent so much time trying to be like my
idols, particularly Milton Erickson.
He was a big influence in my life. Until the day that I woke up, which was the
day I started shifting from a competent hypnotist towards the path of mastery,
that’s the day when I realized I’ll never be like Erickson, nor will I ever speak
like Erickson. The reason I’ll never be like him or speak like him is because I’m
not him. I have to speak the way I speak.
I have to move the way I move. I have to think the way I think and let those
things grow exponentially to create things that may not have existed before.
That’s where my path of power lies. That’s where my mastery lies. It’s taking
the influence, by all means, taking the inspirations and even some of the
techniques he’s done.
However, if I try to do them like him, I’ll always be a carbon copy. I’ll be second
rate. I’ll be like a photocopy that once, it gets photocopied enough times you
can’t even recognize what’s going on anymore, but if I tried in my way…
Kevin: Forgive me for interrupting, because I’m probably going to say the exact same
thing you did, I’m embarrassed. The idea is that if you’re a baseball player, you
don’t want to be exactly like another person because if you try too hard to be
exactly like them, you will not be a good ballplayer.
You will not have the latitude and the wisdom to do the things that they do –
what seems like it’s intuitively because they’ve spent 10,000 hours becoming
great at what they do – and you won’t have that knowledge, that experience.
You need to have a lot of hours at being you.

I know this sounds esoteric, but you really have to allow yourself to be okay
with you. Go out there and just be you. Let it be okay to be you. A lot of times
you get into a situation, like oh, I don’t feel comfortable here. You know what?
Let it be okay to be comfortable. Allow yourself to be stupid. Allow yourself to
make a mistake. If you allow yourself those sins, you will find yourself becoming
powerful.
As soon as you allow yourself to make a mistake or a series of mistakes and let
it be funny or let it be okay, all of the sudden people will give you power
because you are not threatening. As soon as you’re seen as a non-threat, now
all of the sudden all the girls like you and even the men are okay with you
talking to their girls and it’s all okay. The whole idea is to let go of the craving
for power.
We only get into hypnosis and NLP because we’re interested in power. It kind
of randomly happened to me, but hey, I’m not immune to power I like it its cool.
But real power, when you really have it – I mean– with the lady at the front desk
doesn’t come from your being formal and being just like Milton Erickson. It
comes from your being this goofy person who is as unique as Milton Erickson.
I had a guy, a medical doctor as one of my students one time in a hypnosis

training. The guy was 85-90 years old. He had trained with Erickson back in
1960 or 1970. I can’t think of his name right now, but he had his wife with him at
the training and he was just wonderful to have in training. He would tell stories
about Milton and I’m telling you, they’re nothing like you would believe.
Milton Erickson was a real character. Richard Bandler really is a lot like Milton
Erickson in a lot of ways. Erickson was a real character. He would do funny
things and quirky and odd things. Essentially, what it all came down to as this
guy would share stories – every day he would tell a story about Erickson.
What it came down to was that Erickson was a little boy who eventually
became an old man and that’s the man that we knew, but he was just as
devilish and fun playing as everybody else. It was those quirks and those
behaviors that made him unique and that caused him to be so great. It wasn’t
the word that he said I mean, yes, those things were great too but it was the
uniqueness.
Now I’ve probably beaten this to death and it’s not my goal, but it really is
important. People do this where all the sudden you go from being good to
great.
Igor: I’m glad you’re saying this because I think it’s such an important thing. It’s so
easy to idolize someone and put them on a pedestal, that you actually lose the
very features that made that person so special in the first place. Erickson,
Bandler, Grinder, all these people – it’s the exact same thing.

They’re still human beings and to the extent that you allow them to be human
beings, to that extent you can actually allow yourself to be a human being. At
that point, stuff comes out of you that you didn’t even know was there. That’s a
cool thing.
I think I learned this most, believe or not, from improvisation theatre. There’s a
very general rule of that. Improv theatre, like Who’s Line Is It Anyway, where
you do funny things on stage and you make up a little short skit that has to be
funny, but you make it up on the spot.
One of the things that they have to learn to do is to realize that when they’re
starting off, the first few things out of their mouths will usually be things that
aren’t typical in your society. Like talking about toilet humor, sex, rape, killing
babies. That sort stuff; stuff that you never normally talk about.
That’s like a thin veil of oil over a pool of healthy water. Those people are
willing to go through that thin oily sort of veil, so they get to the good stuff
underneath and they become hysterical. Over time, they go through that oily
veil so quickly that no one even notices it. I think that’s one of the secrets to
master.
One of the things that the Erickson’s of the world did, which is they did all the
weird quirky stuff, all the stuff that most people don’t want to do. They made
mistakes that people are afraid to make. They did the weird stuff that we’ve
always wondered about trying out but never really wanted to do.
By doing it, they’ve gone through to that other sauce where just amazing things
happen, but we cut ourselves off by trying to be too correct, too serious too
polite and so on.
Kevin: When you mentioned you were doing improv, I mean that is just the right thing
to do for people who really want to gain power. As soon as person has the
ability to speak extemporaneously – and by the way, if you guys that are
listening, if you really want to get good, God, I wish I had an improv class, but I
don’t.
Take an improv class at a college near you or wherever because no kidding,

when you do an improv class or an extemporaneous speaking class where
you’re given a title and then you’re going to speak for five minutes on this
subject right now. If you learn to do that, all the sudden you’ll become
comfortable in any situation.
The people who are good at improv like Wayne Brady in Las Vegas, if you ever
get a chance to see him, he’s great. I got the chance to meet him the other day
and oh man, what a genius he is. He’s very powerful. He’s 5’ 6”, about 120-130

pounds and very thin. He’s strong. He’s smart. The reason he has power, the
reason he’s powerful is because he has latitude. He can think across a very,
very wide canyon of knowledge. He doesn’t have a script and because he
doesn’t have a script, he’s amazing.
Igor: I totally agree with that. I think, again, a lot of these people that keyed into the
true principles of power and they make it look so effortless that people see it
and they enjoy and love it, but they don’t really understand that the real power
they’ve got is by deviating from the norm rather than actually emulating the
norm.
You told me something about before, which is again in some respects going to
sound a bit weird. In some respects you’re lucky, because relatively early in
your covert hypnosis career, when you were starting to establish yourself as a
name, create all these patterns and processes and so on you had some very
interesting experiences that taught you the real underlying value of hypnosis,
by actually doing something that most people would be embarrassed to talk
about.
♦ Can you tell us a little bit about how you actually really got good at
covert hypnosis by not being good at covert hypnosis?
Kevin: Well, if you learn and if you model a piece of success and you do it well, good
for you, but really you learn when you screw something up because, man, that
sticks. Some of my favorite stories really are about some of the dumbest things
I’ve ever done in my life and thinking that I was real smart at the time.
If you allow yourself this ability to be wrong, stupid, foolish, embarrassed and
then you win because you build power because you’re not a threat then so
anyway, a couple of quick stories.
In 1999, I’m over in Prague with Richard Brodie, who was the author, inventor,
whatever you want to call it, creator of Microsoft Word. Microsoft Word is
probably on your computer right now, just a smart man. He’s my age, which
means he’s got a cane too. He’s brilliant.
So we’re walking around Prague and I need money. I need lira I think is what it
was. I only had American dollars. We had just gotten in town. So we go into
one of these currency exchange stores. Now obviously, there are none of these
places in America, so Americans don’t get this, but you go to a store so you can
get new money. You go to the cashier and there’s a sign that says 1%
commission. I’m like okay, that’s not so bad.
I give her $100 and she gives me the equivalent of $84 in, I think its lira, back. I
looked at it and I’m like, wait a minute. That’s not right. The sign says 1%. I said
you’re taking advantage of me here. She says, nope. Then she closed her

register and turned away. I was incensed and don’t know why, I’m not in my
country, but I felt ripped off.
Of course, when you study NLP and do some of the research that I do into
words that are very powerful, like the word– because and now and a person’s
name and all of these things– I started piecing this language patterns and
words in my mind. I’m like you really want to do this because – and then I would
use ambiguity and all these things over a period of about four minutes.
She wasn’t responding at all. I’m feeling like moron. Richard Brodie is looking at
me like I’m a total moron and I was. It was so funny. There were people
watching this. Tourists! So anyway I’m sitting there yelling at this lady and I’m
spewing language patterns at a mile a minute at her and I realize that I’m
having no influence.
Finally, I said, you know what I’m calling the police. I didn’t have a telephone on
me, but I said I’m calling the police. She smiles, gets on the telephone and
started punching the buttons. She said, hello. Then she said, police come here,
we have people here. It was the Mafia, you know, not a justice system that they
had there at the time.
So Richard and I made tracks real quick out of there. This is not an amazing
story, but the experience was a lifetime changer because I was like, oh my
God, here you go. Pay attention, Kevin. Yes, your research works well for
Americans and often for people who are in Great Britain and Australia and
Canada, who also speak English or India, but not always. When you’re in a
foreign country, your stuff doesn’t translate, which was exactly what happened.
It was either two weeks or two years later – forgive me because I do travel in
Eastern Europe a bit and I don’t remember exactly when it was. I was doing
NLP training with Andrej Batko, who brought me over to do two days on covert
hypnosis. I think that was the first time they published the cover hypnosis
operator’s manual and nobody knew about it, but he knew about it because he
had bought my book, Psychology of Persuasion. It had just come out in Poland
in the Polish version.
So he brought me over there and we’re talking about the desires, the drives of
people’s behavior. What is it that causes them to do stuff and sort of how to
wire into those drivers and actually move people in that or another direction?
Then I started talking about hypnotic language patterns and the translator,
Kasha, was unable to translate enormous portions of what I was
communicating about. I had already had the experience from Prague. I already
knew that not everything translate when you say it, but I didn’t know that you
couldn’t teach it as well necessarily.

So here I am trying to explain syntactic ambiguity. There are no words to

translate these things in Polish. All the sudden, I realized that we have other
challenges here because there are words that don’t work here. Like now they
use the word “persuazi” in Poland, but in those days, in Germany for example,
there is no word for persuade, it’s convince.
Igor: Even worse, in German, there’s no word that equates to the mind. How are you
going to talk the mind? You can talk the spirit. You can talk about a ghost. You
can talk about the brain, but you cannot talk about the mind. It’s a concept
that’s unique to the English language.
Kevin: Wow. That’s interesting.
Igor: This kind of puts your point across and I’m glad you’re making this point to
people, because its not the words you’re using. People get so excited by
perfect language patterns the bullet that’s going to get things. It’s not the words
that get people, its what those words do to someone inside their brain, inside
the minds.
When you understand the maneuver that you’re going for, then you have
freedom to do it in other languages and other cultures because you think, okay,
this person’s come from this direction, so I’ll need their mind to be switching this
thing on and then you fit the language to do that. That’s how you can come up
with a cool language pattern on the fly.
You’re not doing language patterns. What you’re actually doing is mental
maneuvers expressing language. That’s a totally different mindset, isn’t it?
Kevin: It is and as soon as you start thinking from the extemporaneous or the improv
point of view, then all of the sudden you get it. I didn’t get it at the time. I was so
wrapped up into thinking God, technique.
At the time, I was developing what I thought was really a fairly innovate – and
it’s stood the test of time so far. Covert hypnosis model is effective, but I was
stuck. I couldn’t believe how ineffective and impotent I was in front of an
audience. This is just eight or nine years ago. I didn’t know that these changes
change from language to language or from concept to concept.
Anyway, the take home for the listener, of course, is don’t think that just
because Erickson, Bandler or Tony Robbins said it – or whoever your hero is –
don’t think that because they said these words that you’re going to say those
words and get a similar result because that’s just not true. There’s so much
more. That’s what I really wanted to become curious about and develop over
the years was that thing.

We all think we’re pretty smart, right? I know I’m smart and he thinks he’s
smart, but I’ve learned over the years that I’m only half as smart as I think I am,
which means I’m still pretty smart but yeah, really think about it.
Igor: What I take out of what you’re saying here – and I think this is one of the
reasons that you are really so good at what you do. Guys, but the way, do
check out his course. I think is covert hypnosis course has some priceless
gems when it comes to the covert hypnosis field. I mean real priceless gems
and they will stand the test of time.
One of the things I really admire that you’re talking about is this sort of attitude
of humility. It’s not really about how smart or not smart you are. It’s the idea that
you’re willing to be wrong. You’re not going to be so married to an idea. You’re
not going to force an idea through. You’re willing to be wrong so that you can
learn from it and do something with it.
For example, you’re one of the first people I’ve ever come across that talks
about a difference between the context and the content. So many people focus
on the content – the words they say the order they same them in and all these
different things. By far the bigger picture is and something that very few people
talk about, but you really emphasize this. This is what your whole covert
hypnosis trainings have evolved into. It’s what the context it’s all happening in?
If you’re leading a seminar group, you have certain freedoms that you don’t
have in any other environment. If you’re in a hypnotherapy room, it gives you
certain liberties and you have certain powers that you don’t have in another
context. If you’re in a Mafia-run money exchange program in the middle of
Eastern European country where the police, probably half of it is really in the
Mafia, it’s a totally different context.
It doesn’t mean you can’t influence in that place, but you have to understand
the context you’re in before you can actually start manipulating the variables
that get the results that you want.
Kevin: Here’s the thing. No matter whatever level of skill you’re at, one of the things
that makes the great performers great – like McCartney. I love Paul McCartney,
by the way. I followed up and got his autograph, the whole thing. I went to one
of his concerts and he fell down off the piano when he was getting away from
the piano. He handled it so elegantly. It was amazing.
He started laughing at himself, brushed himself off and looked at the audience.
Then he sort of stood by himself, if you will and he sort of pretended that his
self was over here next to him and he looked at himself, just shaking his head,
like you idiot. What were you thinking? It was priceless.

Once again, it reminded me that the reason this man is a billionaire, the reason
that this man is so nonthreatening to every human being that sees him is
because he’s so able to okay with screwing up and making an error and doing
dumb things. It sounds weird. I know it sounds strange and odd, but no kidding,
allow yourself the ability to laugh at yourself when dumb things happen
because if you do that, you have power. If you can’t do that, you don’t have
power; you’re seeking it.
Igor: Amen to that. I’m a big believer in that. It’s ironic that the more you’re okay with
not have the power, the more it comes your way. It’s a weird thing. It’s not like
you’re not interested in the field at all, it’s just there’s something that happens,
some shift in attitude and the way you attract the environment that life becomes
so much easier at that point.
Now before we go down that road too much, I know we could spend hours
talking about this stuff, but I wanted to focus a little bit more on some of the
things that you do, particularly in your cover hypnosis course.
♦ Can you tell us a little bit more about how you came around to
developing your particular covert hypnosis skills and why you
began to emphasize certain elements?
Kevin: You can get a glass of water now because this might take a minute. When you
think about it, NLP is cool and hypnosis is cool, but only as far as they go. NLP
is a closed field. That means that you really can’t create anything new and
valuable for it. It’s simply sort of a retelling of the same story, which is fine and
it’s good for mastering that skill set, but really there’s nothing else there.
So I became bored with that. It wasn’t that I knew everything. I didn’t have
premature closure. There was a lot of stuff that I wasn’t great at, but it was like,
okay, I’ve been there and I’ve done that and there’s nothing else new coming
out. So that was that part.
Then I loved the field of hypnosis because there’s a little bit more room for
growth, but even there, it’s still not broad. You can’t make a lot of stuff. People
are like, oh, that’s not hypnosis. Whatever it is you’re saying. I’m like, well,
actually, that’s exactly what hypnosis is.
People have this idea that hypnosis might mean that I’m going to whack you on
the forehead four times in a row and that you’re going to fall or that you’re going
to go into a trance; or that I’ll do the Erickson handshake. I’d love to know how
many times Erickson did this. I’m thinking maybe once.

The Erickson handshake is a cool thing, but if you do that do a stranger on the
road, he’s going to smack you, but if you do it at a hypnosis training, people find
it very amazing and cool. There’s a lot there and I’ll come back to this concept
in a minute.
The point is, of course, is that here’s hypnosis and here’s NLP and there’s a lot
of stuff that’s missing here. Like what is it that’s really causing people to
change? Is it really the process that you’re doing in NLP? Is it really the trance
that you’re doing in hypnosis? For example, Richard Bandler is at the front of
the room and you know that he’s Richard Bandler and Richard is a very elegant
speaker. He’s very good at weaving words and phrases and sentences and
stories. He’s very, very good at it, as an example.
Now is the reason that he’s so good because he’s getting you to make
changes? Or is the reason he’s so good because he is your guru, which is just
fine, by the way. That’s okay and you have imbued him with power because
he’s okay to do stupid things and you’ll never recognize when he does a stupid
thing because you believe that everything he’s doing is genius. That’s the great
benefit of being yourself.
People will emulate his stupid behaviors thinking that those are relevant things
in real life, but really he just sneezed by accident, guys. Okay? You don’t have
to sneeze at the same moment that he did in the same situation in the future.
It’s not going to be relevant. You’re starting to get the idea, though.
Anyway, so now these things were incomplete models. They’re cool, a lot of
value no doubt, but what was missing the real things that were causing change.
For example, people always say what can you make people do in hypnosis?
Take a step back and the question is, what you can get people to do in real
life? What would the worst thing be to do, for example? Well, it would be to kill
somebody, right?
Okay, so if I could program your brain to kill somebody and just do that, then
you’ll say well, in hypnosis you can’t do that. Bologna. You can because you
can do it without hypnosis. Stanley Milgram in the 1960s several times, dozens
of times did experiments. Dr. Milgram at Yale would show clearly that he could
get people to kill other people time after time, men, women, psychologists and
religious people.
It didn’t matter who it was. Students, young people, old people, black people,
white people. You could literally get people to shock a person in another room
to death over and over and over again. It didn’t matter what kind of a person it
was.

Why did it work? Well, first, buy the book Obedience to Authority to find out the
whole story because it’s amazing. The end-result is this two things. When Dr.
Milgram would be in the room next to the confederate, to the person who is at
the board where the electric shocks were going to be given from and the
subject, the person who’s coming in, everybody knew that this was Yale
University. Yale.
That’s very important. And that it was Dr. Milgram. This is a famous man in this
area. Everybody knows Dr. Milgram. This is like the preeminent psychologist in
the United States. So they’re coming in and Dr. Milgram says, kill the guy.
You’re like, I can’t do that. Oh no, it’s okay. It’s all part of the experiment. Or
he’s just standing there and somebody else is saying those words. It doesn’t
matter.
So the person goes ahead and delivers the shocks that will kill the person,
you’re thinking, I wouldn’t do that. Well, that’s exactly what psychologists
thought and psychiatrists and medical doctors thought and all the people that
they tested thought, but everybody was actually willing to do it. Actually, women
killed more people than men did, by the way, but that’s just a little non-politically
correct piece of value for later.
Igor: To take this one step further. People might think oh, we’re 50 years old and
we’re in a more enlightened age now. That’s not true. Think about it this way.
The army’s whole purpose of boot camp is to turn a normal civilian who’s been
indoctrinated to not holler at people, that’s kind of our ethos and turn them into
people that are willing to kill. That’s part of what boot camp is about. In terms of
warfare, that’s the right attitude. That’s what makes them more efficient or
whatever.
The point is you’ve created the context in which the inappropriate behavior is to
kill another human being and in that context it’s allowed. If that’s not
brainwashing, what is?

Interview – Part 2
Kevin: It absolutely is. The word brainwashing itself means cleaning your brain and
changing things. It doesn’t need to necessarily have a good or a bad
connotation to it. Normally, it’s not so great, but I brainwash the people that I
hang out with and I tell them I doing it at the time, including my children.
Anyway, I want to go back to the Milgram thing real quick because there’s one
more thing. Go back to Yale with me for a second because when Milgram was
in the room and somebody said, go ahead and kill that guy. Deliver the higher
shock, the higher voltage. So the guy dies. Now that’s that. That’s when you’re
at Yale and when you have Stanley Milgram in the room.
If you take Stanley Milgram out of the room and you bring in a teacher’s
assistant, now people won’t kill the guy in the other room. Now you have a
teacher’s assistant in there. They’ve never heard of this guy. He’s not wearing a
lab coat. That’s number one. Then when you put Milgram back in the room,
they start killing the guy again.
Now you take it to a warehouse district in New Haven, Connecticut and do the
same exact experiments, with the same exact layout in a warehouse building
and whether or not Milgram was there, it didn’t matter. In the warehouse
district, nobody would kill the people in the other room by delivering the electric
shocks.
So, there are two takeaways. The first thing is, are you the authority in the
environment? If you are, you have ultimate power. The second thing is where is
your location? What’s your environment? If you’re at Yale, now you have
power. So the two things you want to be focusing on are not the words that you
say. He said the same words in both places. Deliver the shock. No, go ahead
and do it.
The words didn’t change. Actually, they did have a script for hundreds of these
experiments. It was the same script every single time, but when you change the
location or you take the authority figure out of the room, either one of those two
things – authority and context, the environment – now all of the sudden, nobody
will do the evil deed. Nobody will deliver the shock that would kill the person.
Igor: What we’re talking about here essentially is context, which is one of the
reasons why the most powerful hypnotic induction you can have is to say to
someone, I’m a hypnotist. The minute they believe you, then your work is pretty
much done.

Kevin: Precisely. That’s it. If you’re congruent and if that’s your conversation, it’s just
that simple. For example, what do you for a living? I’m a hypnotist. Really? How
long have you been doing that? Ten years. What do you do? Stage work now?
What I do is I do this kind of stuff. I do change work with people. All I do is I just
say something, they do it and they change. Do you make people cluck like a
chicken? No, not recently. That’s what everybody thinks, but that’s okay,
though. It’s all right to think that because if you really wanted to, it probably
wouldn’t be that hard to do.
Then you go back and say what you want to say. I’m a hypnotist. This is what I
do. You create the context and now you’ve created the authority. The other
alternative is to put yourself in a position where you have status and dominance
in a room. So if you put yourself into that position where you’re the person at
the front of the room or you have the power in this setting, then indeed you can
get people to do anything you want them to do. It really doesn’t matter what the
words are.
Those are the big things, the things I studied and the things that were
fascinating to me. How do you build authority in yourself? How do you build
credibility? And then how do you manipulate a setting so people, based upon
what book or magazine is on the coffee table, will say yes or no? How do you
change things in the location of the store so somebody will buy something?
How do you use a subliminal video so the person will actually buy it versus not?
All of those kinds of the things are the contextual things, the things that covert
hypnosis is more about, because they wire into our core driver’s as people. The
desire for tranquility, which is leaving the fight or flight response we don’t want
to be scared or the desire to learn, the desire to acquire stuff, to collect.
I’m a collector. All over the room I’m in right now I’ve got autographs and
posters and pictures of celebrities and all this kind of stuff. I’ve got Pamela
Anderson’s autograph over here. I’ve got Elvis’s over here. I’ve got Paul
McCartney, Keefer Sutherland. I’m just looking around, the Beatles all this kind
of stuff.
The thing is why do I want to collect that? Why do I want to collect? Well, forget
the whole story. The point is that people have a desire to acquire and collect.
So if you want to sell something, create a collection because people will buy a
collection because it’s incomplete.
This is what makes a speaker great. It’s the ability to leave the open loop. If you
leave an open loop – and everybody here probably knows what nested loops
are, I’m not going to go there – but if you leave the open loop, people will come
back for the next show, they’ll come back for the next hour. That’s how great
speakers speak. It’s by leaving an open loop because we have this desire for
completion.

Igor: I like your approach to hypnosis because you’re putting a lot of very careful
attention not so much on the things that we can see you doing, but on those
things people don’t notice you doing the setup, the context, the environment
and those sorts of things.
It kind of reminds me a little bit of that old ‘70s show. Not the recent movies, but
the old ‘70s show, Mission Impossible, where they were so careful to set up a
context in which a person would have to act in a such a wildly different way that
they very, very cleverly always managed to get their way. They always got the
bad guy to give up their own money or whatever it was. It’s kind of like the
ultimate con trick but in a way that actually gets a positive result.
Kevin: That’s a beautiful example. What you want to be thinking about is if you really
want somebody to change – and by the way, change could mean you want to
get the date tonight, or you want to get a job or you want to make a sale.
Whatever it is that your outcome is, you’re far wiser to think about where you’re
going to take that person than you are the words you’re going to say when you
get there.
I promise you you’ll screw up the words, but you won’t screw up the location.
Where you sit in the bar, where you sit in a restaurant, the dimness of the
lights. Is it too dark or too light? All this stuff matters a ton.
This is what I studied. I am continually amazed, week by week, I read the

research that’s coming out in all the fields that are relevant and related and I’m
blown away by what I don’t know every single week. To as much degree as I
can, I codify this stuff into sort of collectable usable bits of information that
people can use.
If you want somebody to like you, take them to a restaurant that’s a little more
dimly lit than, say a McDonalds. You want it a little darker. Your eyes are a little
bit larger and all you’ve done is just controlled where you sit in the restaurant.
The person sees these bigger eyes, which are the same eyes that a little child
has or a baby. If you look at a baby’s face, babies have these huge eyes and
this little tiny head. They’re just huge and black because they haven’t
experienced fear and pain yet.
As they get older, all of the sudden you see people at age 20 or 25 years old,
they have these little tiny beady eyes and their eyes don’t expand like they did
when they were a child, collecting all the good information in.
Similarly, when somebody looks at you and they see those bigger eyes
because of the dim light, all of the sudden, they view with characteristics of an
attractive person because there are all these feelings of liking that are triggered
back in the brain from holding an infant in their hands. As corny as it sounds, all
the sudden the person views you with characteristics of intelligence, kindness

and attractiveness that you don’t deserve. Because you put yourself in this
context – and this is just one example out of 50 or 50,000, but there you go. So
that’s just an example.
Igor: I know that you have a vast repertoire of little maneuvers that you can do to
really edge things this way or that way like an artist has his pallet. Colors and a
sense of art in terms of colors and lines whatever it is I know you have a whole
bunch of these things.
♦ To make it easier for people, do you have a simple formula or

simple concepts that people can go oh, I know these are the kinds
of things I’m trying to achieve and then you have these tools to
actually achieve that?
♦ Can you give us an overview of what covert hypnosis is, you know,
the things you’re trying to achieve with it so that these tools are
now filling in the black spaces as you go along?
Kevin: Perfect. There’s a model that I made and it’s just a model but it works. About 15
years ago – I call it the covert model, oddly enough. The goal is not to get
people to think about something or to speak to them in some certain way. The
goal is to get people to take one singular action. That’s all. Just take a singular
action.
It doesn’t matter whether you’re using a subliminal or a super-liminal object in

the environment or whether it is to say a word or to sit a person a certain way. It
can be anything, but I just want them to take an action because you can get
people to be different, to leave the status quo – to go out with you, in other
words, or to say yes to the sale or to hire you – you can’t get them to do that
until you can get them to move.
As soon as you get somebody to move, to move their hand, to stand up, to sit
down, to look to the right, to shift to the left, to breathe harder or whatever – if
you can’t get them to move, you can’t get them to say yes. So if you can get
somebody to move, you now have controlled their behavior. As soon as you
control their behavior to get them to move, they now have a slight belief shift.
For example, I remember I was at the Playboy Mansion about two years ago
with Dave Lakhani and I hadn’t had a screwdriver since like 1983, but the
context had changed. I’m now in a very cool place to have fun, right? So Dave’s
like screw the wine. Have a screwdriver. I’m like okay, we’ll do that.
So all of the sudden because the context changes – because I’m a lightweight,
but the context changed so I did exactly what he said because it was all primed
from the environment. Now if he had said that at the hotel before we left, I

would have said, well, I just drink wine. I’m just a wine drinker. So just be aware
of that.
So he got me to change a behavior, so by doing that, I shifted a belief that

night. I hadn’t had anything but wine in two decades. Now because I had that
screwdriver – orange juice with vodka – because I had that, I had to sort of
justify that in my mind. Like, Kevin’s only a wine drinker. No, Kevin actually had
hard liquor. Well, how could you do that? Well, because I was at the Playboy
Mansion it was okay.
I’ve now done that and so now I’m going back for my second one. These are
my deep, dark secrets coming out now. I hadn’t done that in 20 years. Since
then, I haven’t either because I haven’t been to the Playboy Mansion. Not that
alcohol is a bad thing, by the way. It can be, but this is just one experience.
Igor: We get the point. It’s the fact that just by changing context, you’ve broken a 20-
year habit, or a 20-year limitation that you’d put on yourself.
Kevin: Precisely.
Igor: The fact that you broke it once means that you’ll break it again and again and
again, or you can at least because whilst you’re in the same context, the same
rationale keeps carrying true and could by a skillful hypnotist be used to
augment it. This is how you create a lot of freedom for people too.
It reminds of a story that I heard about a charity worker who was working for
fundraising for a local church or something. He got people to volunteer mass
amounts of time and got like tens of thousands of dollars while everyone else
was collecting the little charity tins with $.20 and five dollar bills.
The parish priest or whatever it was; was so amazed. He said how do you do
this? He goes oh, it’s very simple. I don’t ask for a big donation. The first thing
I’ll ask them to do is I ask them to take a stack of papers and move it to another
office.
Kevin: Perfect.
Igor: So now they’re in an environment where they’re doing something simple for the
church, so to speak. It’s a small action. It’s something that is so minor that it
would be almost impolite to refuse it, but now they’re actually engaged in the
process of charity work. He gets to re-label it and say well, thanks. The church
really appreciates that. By the way, do you think you could do this as well?
Slowly but surely he added another slice, another slice and another slice.
Before you know it, people are full in the program and for the most part they
love it. That’s one of the real secrets of change.

Kevin: That is it and because you got the person to take an action, a little tiny action
and then all of the sudden they justify that with sort of an attitude or a belief.
Now they decide on their own to make the next one and they make a bigger
action and they become evangelists. So somebody who goes to a Kevin Hogan
event might say well, I’m here because somebody made me go, or they really
wanted me to go.
Then they come and they have a great time and they learn all this cool stuff and
all of the sudden they’re like God, when’s your next one? The hardest thing to
do is to earn the first dollar, to get the first girl to say yes, to do anything the first
time. As soon as you do the first thing, all of the sudden you now shift your
belief because I did it. I went to church and then all of the sudden I want to go
back again next week on my own.
The person got me there just as a favor. By the way, guys, if you ever want to
influence, all you have to do is just ask for a favor. People have a brutal time
saying no to a favor.
Would you just do me a little tiny favor? Would you grab me a glass of water?
This is one of the things I do live. By the way, when I manipulate people, I try to
tell them in advance that I’m going to manipulate them. So from the front of the
room I might say by the way, I’m about to ask you for a glass of water. What
that does is that creates sort of this connection between us and it allows you to
know that you’re going to be more likely to fulfill requests in the future that I
make. Everybody goes, okay, that’s cool.
Then I say by the way, would you bring me a glass of water? Sure. So they
grab the glass of water. Then we have other people do it for each other and
then all of the sudden people feel more connected. So these aren’t bad things.
These are cool things. This is how you link people up and make them friends
and that kind of stuff, anyway actions, beliefs, actions and beliefs.
Get people to take an action and they develop a belief, then they’ll take another
action and it will be bigger and they will now become evangelists for you or for
your cause or for whatever it is you want. Just by the fact that you got them to
do a little tiny thing at first and then they thought about it or got a feeling about it
after. It will replicate over and over. That’s the basic covert model. If I had to
just sum it up – action, belief, action, belief, action belief.
Igor: Just to emphasize the sheer genius of what you’re doing there because people
might underestimate it, the point here is a lot of people often go for the big kill,
the big kahuna. Like give me the million dollars or buy me a diamond ring, or
whatever it happens to be. They don’t realize that by going for the big shot
straightaway, they’re actually reducing their influence rather than increasing it.

Whereas if you ask for small things – one of the things that I developed for
street hypnosis and doing hypnosis is a more social context, is pretty much the
same thing you’re doing with the glass of water, which is I’ll move people
around. If I’m talking to a group of people and maybe I’m telling them a story. I’ll
say, why don’t you stand over here and you over here? I’ll pretend its part of
the story, like you can be this character in the story and you’ll be the other.
I’ll point between them and say you did well. It involves them, but what they
don’t realize they’re doing is they’re starting with social compliance. They’re
following my instructions. It’s in the spirit of fun, of course. It’s all in the spirit of
what we’re doing, but at the same time, what they’re doing, of course, is they’re
following my directions.
They’re following it and each time I direct a little bit more it’s more likely they’ll
follow through and by the time I get into the overt hypnotic stuff, it’s really done
deal at that point because I’m the authority figure, I’ve run the context around
me, the context is Simon Says and I’m Simon and I say.
Kevin: Precisely.
Igor: It’s so much easier at that point. It’s a small thing. It’s literally like pick
someone’s wrist up and say can I have a look at that? They’ll show you their
watch. Touching someone on the shoulder and saying, can we move you over
here? I just want to see something over here. Those tiny little motions added up
over a period of time, it’s very difficult to describe to people who haven’t seen or
done it themselves just how powerful they actually really can be.
Kevin: If you think about your home – I know you’re on the road quite a bit, but when
you think about people’s homes, the person who’s listening to this, they’re
sitting somewhere listening to this. They’re sitting down probably listening to
this. They might be driving, but they’re sitting down probably.
So let’s just say that later on they’re going to have dinner. Now here’s a
prediction. I predict that whoever’s listening to this, you sit in the exact same
chair every single night when you sit down to dinner. That’s a prediction. Now
when somebody comes over to visit you, they knock on the door hey, how are
you doing Kev? Come on it. Where should I sit down? Sit anywhere you like. Of
course, in your mind, what are you thinking? You’re thinking, except for my
chair. Don’t sit in my chair.
Then somebody sits in your chair. Now everybody just imagine where you sit
usually at dinner. Now just imagine your neighbor coming over and sitting in
that chair. Just imagine this right now. Just do that. Now your neighbor is sitting
in your chair. How do you feel? All of the sudden, you feel one thing. Really
uncomfortable. You think, no I’m okay with it. Are you really? No, you’re not.
Nobody is because it’s your chair, it’s your territory.

Now if you want to change the way people act in a room together, like you do at
seminars, Igor, if you have a great day, well let everybody sit right where they
did last time, but if you have a day where somebody got into an argument, it’s
really simple. I just put my stuff on that person who was the problem child
yesterday. When I come in, in the morning, I’ll drop my book there, my water
and all that kind of stuff.
Now nobody can sit there and so the problem child now is going to sit
somewhere else. All of the sudden, the dynamic of the room will change just
because you’ve changed the dynamic. People will go to the precise exact same
place. They’ll mark it out spatially, territorially for themselves and for nobody
else. As soon as you take somebody to a new place, you change the context.
Now it’s much easier to persuade somebody when you’ve moved a person from
point A to point B.
If a person is in the status quo and they’ve been exactly in this chair 12 days in
a row, believe it or not, it’s harder to motivate them or to get them to change
then it is if you put them in a new location where they become unsettled or
uncomfortable a little bit.
Igor: Absolutely. Just to add to what you’re saying this is a beautiful gem, you’re
offering people here. I hope people don’t miss this because this is really an
important piece. It’s this idea of mixing up the known. The minute something
becomes slightly unknown, in other words, whatever dynamic has been
created, you mix it up.
At that point, your ability to influence – in other words, it’s called leadership.
You get to tell people what to do and people want to do it because they don’t
know what to do on their own. A classic example again, is social environment. If
you ever find yourself at a party and you’ve never been there and there’s a
group of people and they’re all friends, you feel a little bit left out.
The simplest way to be part of that group and it will be more fun for everyone
else involved, by the way, is you might start by telling a story to the people
there. Before you finish that story, you’ll actually break that group up. You might
pull another group in and say oh, you guys want to listen to this as well. Bring
them in.
Now what you’ve done is you’ve got two groups that don’t normally hang out
together coming together and you’ve created this whole new context of like, oh
we’re going to introduce each other and so on. You do the introductions. You
carry on with your story, but now you have a brand new group. It’s no longer a
clique of friends plus you.

You’ve organized a new group and now you’re the figure of authority in that
group. Pretty much it’s a done deal again at that point. It only happens when
you’re familiar with the dynamic that was there before and you break it up. This
is sheer genius. I hope people really appreciate the power in that little tiny
subtle gesture that you’re offering.
Kevin: In the story that you just told about breaking it up and adding people to the
environment, that is really, oh my God, you guys – I had never even thought
about doing that. That is fabulous. It will work and the research backs it up.
Everybody write that down what Igor just said. In other words, you’re talking to
five people. You’ve had these five people. They love you. They know you’re
amazing and all this kind of stuff. Now you’re going to bring in five other people.
All of the sudden, because you bring in five other people and these other five
people know that you’re amazing, now all of the sudden through simple social
proof and social experience, these people will emulate this. We know this from
Asche experiments back in the ‘50s where, hey, how long is that line? Are all
the lines the same length? The line on the left is obviously like seven inches
taller than the rest of them. Everybody goes, yeah.
Of course, the confederate says, yes, yes, yes and then the person who just
walked into the classroom, the subject goes, God they look different. Okay, but
they’re the same. I can see that they’re probably the same size. You’ve
accomplished that. Wow. What a cool idea. That’s wonderful. I love it. That’s
amazing. I’ve learned something. Now I’ve gotten my check now. I’m good.
Igor: Kevin, it’s always a huge pleasure talking to you because, first, I think you really
a true inspiration. One of the things that I really admire about what your work
has done – and this is a theme that’s come out a lot in a chat just now as well –
it’s your willingness to be wrong in order to be right bigger.
I can’t emphasize it enough. It’s a big, deal. You spent many months, if not
years, writing a book and then realizing that half the stuff isn’t really working or
not as good as it could be. Scrapping it and starting from scratch again and
evolving principles.
Not many people do that. Some people just have their one hit wonder and they
try to ride that pony for all it’s worth. You’ve gone even one step further than
that. You don’t just test things in terms of practical day-to-day experience,
which is great because that’s actually very important in the real world, but
you’ve got the next step as well. You’re one of the few people, the few
persuasion-oriented hypnotists that have actually been academically accepted.
In other words, you’ve gone into colleges and done psychological studies to
actually validate a lot of the principles by which you work. They’re genuinely
provable, discernible and repeatable principles and actions that, not only

require your personality to pull off – because that’s part of your idiosyncrasies
and your behaviors and so on. They’re genuine principles that other
personalities can also pull off.
Kevin: Yes. Part of the fun thing – when I had this school, the Minnesota Institute of
Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy, now retired – my protégé, Devon Hastings, has a
school here in Minnesota licensed. We’ve been very good a keeping close to
academics. Not because academics are super easy, wonderful people to
please, but because they’re very important in assisting you in projects that can
matter.
A couple of things that come to mind really quick. The first thing you mentioned
is being wrong and thinking you’re right. Eye access and cues in NLP, for
example, were one of those things that caused me to change how I teach
hypnosis forever. It went like this.
Psychology of Persuasion, like on page 220 of the book or something, had an

image, the eye accessing image, left visual, kinesthetic and all that kind of stuff.
A professor from the University of Illinois, Chicago wrote me an email and said,
you know that stuff you’re teaching about eye accessing cues is nonsense. It
doesn’t work.
I’m thinking, wow and I’m defending it. I’m like no, I’m positive it works
absolutely. I’ve experienced it. I’ve watched it myself and I do it myself all the
time. It’s perfect actually. It’s a great model.
We took the University of Wisconsin, River Falls; University of Washington,

Seattle; and my school in Minneapolis, the Minnesota Institute of Hypnosis and
Hypnotherapy and we did a three-school study on this to find out what the
research results actually would show.
We did all the questions that people who ask about auditory construct and
remember and kinesthetic. All that stuff, including the gaze, the central gaze
and all that kind of stuff. We measured it and it turned out that there was no
correlation between any of the cues and what the person what actually
remember. In other words, if they looked up and to the left, they weren’t actually
remembering a visual memory. They could have been, but they certainly didn’t
have to be and most of the time they weren’t.
Anyway, there are still a lot of NLP trainers who really believe that this is super
important. That eye accessing cues are crucial and so I leave you with your
belief and its okay. It’s cool that you have that, but my experience was that I
was very embarrassed because I had to then report the results and actually I
posted them on our website for probably five years we had them there.

I took a lot of heat in the NLP community, which is just fine actually because
controversy always helps sell books too. So that was one thing.
When I was training people in hypnosis to be trainers, we had sort of this

rigorous process that it was to go through it because I really wanted my people
to be good, but then we added – there’s so much stuff that I think is BS out
there. I mean I can’t tell you. Like spirituality and metaphysics and all this stuff.
Because of personal experiences, I thought that’s BS, that’s BS, this is BS, this
is BS.
So what we would do, for example, we had a person who believed that EFT,
this tapping thought field therapy, emotional field therapy; that, that was legit.
So what we did is – I thought that was cool, so what I had Rose Rockney do –
we structured an experiment, a research project. Their job is to prove me wrong
whatever I believe to be wrong. Their job is to prove me wrong and to show
what they believe is right. So we did the EFT.
It turned out that when I would give a set of baseball signals – I’m a big
baseball fan. So I created a structure of baseball signals, like tapping your
forearm and tapping the back of your wrist, tapping your forehead, tapping your
nose and then going to your chin. All this kind of stuff, just like EFT, except for it
was just baseball signals, basically, saying steal second.
So we did that. We would divide rooms in half and what we found out was if you
do baseball signals with people, they will feel just as good, less anxiety and just
as comfortable and healthy and less pain as they do with EFT and TFT.
Now this doesn’t prove that TFT is bad. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. It proves
that it’s a cool technology. It just provides evidence for the fact that it works for
different reasons than we think it works.
Igor: What this reminds me of is how Mesmer got laughed out of business with the
French commission when the infamous royal inquisition turned out and figured
out that people were being magnetized by trees that were never really
magnetized. They realized it’s the force of imagination rather than some
magnetic fluid that’s doing this.
The key thing to take out of this, for me anyway is not that Mesmer was bad
should be destroyed and go underground as he did for many years. It’s turn
around to get excited and go hang on a second, we’ve just found something
that works and we’ve just gotten one step closer to finding an operative
principle in this. So we get to be better at it now.
Kevin: That’s it. For me, I didn’t believe. I had a belief too. We all have beliefs about
stuff. I didn’t that EFT, for example, that the tapping process had any value to it
at all. I thought it was just bogus, but then I found out that this is not just a joke.

Because of the baseball signals, it was like, oh, that’s really kind of cool. Sure
enough, when you had people do it and test it out for therapy and all that, they
would feel better too. So it became an integrated part of our program, not
because of the spiritual or the energy fields or any of that kind of stuff. Just
because it’s a great pattern interrupt and anytime you can interrupt people’s
pain and get them to think about something else, they just feel better. It’s just
neurology.
Of course, that was a great learning experience for me in 2002, when we did
that one. That was a big experiment and it was very controversial among the
people. I, almost, always have this great metaphysical following for some
reason when it should be scientists, but its metaphysicists.
Anyway, we did this with auras. We did this with just about everything. We did
alien abduction even. I tell you what I kid you not this was one of the last –
Craig Lang, a guy who wrote a book recently on alien abduction. I don’t believe
in alien abduction for a second and I can tell a false memory usually pretty well,
but I’ll tell you what, there are a lot of tests that I do for false memories.
I want this person myself. It’s a long story, but four hours after he was doing
regression with this guy who said he was abducted by an alien – I’m like, oh,
this is just a bunch of crap. Excuse me, but he’s doing a bad job at this.
I actually took over for him. I regressed the guy back and I was totally
convinced that he was abducted by the end of the day. I was like, you know
what? I’m not saying anything negative about these guys. I know its BS. I’m
positive it’s BS, but I can’t find a damn piece of evidence to show that it’s BS.
It just draws you back. So just because you believe it and just because you see
it, you might want to just step back and go, you know what? I want to learn and
make sure that I got his right. So all the patterns that you learn and all the stuff
you do is cool, but just start thinking about what would happen if you turn the
lights up or down, if you had the person shift left or shift right. Just start thinking
laterally, like we were talking about earlier.
All of the sudden when you incorporate that into the act, believe, act, believe,
act, believe – now when you get people to act, you can get them to decide to
do what you want to do in a very simple way by doing little tiny things. You don’t
even have to open your mouth.
That’s covert hypnosis at its most beautiful fine point, where you don’t have to
work at all, where somebody does precisely what you’re hoping they’ll do, just
because you are there because of something that you had them experience. I’ll
give you a bunch of specifics later, so you can just take them home and do
them yourself with your friends. They’ll be blown away.

Igor: I know we’re going to do some fun things in these upcoming interviews. Before
we end up this particular interview with your general background and
philosophy first, it’s been fascinating, but one thing I want to emphasize that
you just said in this last piece here, which I think is one of the crucial steps in
the process of genuine mastery of hypnosis – or actually of any field.
It’s something that you kind of threw out there almost in passing, but I’d like to
really emphasize it for people. That’s this idea that you’re really testing these
beliefs out. So rather than coming from the beginning saying this is bullshit, like
the idea of alien abductions or whatever it is, you’re actually willing to test it out.
You’re actually being a true scientist.
Instead of saying, that can’t be true and, therefore, won’t even look at it, you’re
saying, I don’t believe it’s true. I’m going to look at it. I’m going to see if I can
shatter my beliefs and you’re actually even willing to turn around and say you
know what? I can’t prove this is not true, so there’s something valid enough in
what’s going on there that I’ll either, utilize it to the extent it’s value or leave it as
a perplexing mystery for someone else to work out.
I’m not going to turn around and marginalize it as ineffective because my

experience is clearly going the opposite direction. I think that’s an important
part to this path of mastery. You don’t get sucked in by an idea, by a beautiful
idea. You test it. So ideas that sound beautiful but end up being unconvincing,
you get to overcome those and ideas that at first you resisted because you
don’t like them, they’re not attractive enough for you for whatever reason,
suddenly have something in them, whatever it might be.
You might not even know what that is yet, but there’s enough value in them that
you think it’s worth exploring further and, as a result, you as a hypnotist grow.
Your mastery of your field grows because you’ve gone beyond the idea of
ideology of dogmatism and you’ve gone into the one place that is the only place
that counts, which is the field the real world. Things are actually happening, as
a result, of the things that you.
I really want to emphasize that because first, I applaud you for doing that and
this is one of the reasons that you really have evolved this field of covert
hypnosis to such an extent.
Kevin: I don’t want to say I’m amazing. One of the things I’ve learned over the years is
I’m average. I just work hard. I think I’ve done a good job at trying to show
people that there’s always more to learn about something. If you have an open
loop, if you approach everything in the open loop like a great speaker does and
you leave people ready for more.

If you put yourself ready for more – like, you know what okay, alien abductions.
What a bogus that is – and by the way, I still don’t believe it. However, I don’t
dismiss it now in public. I go, you know what? I’ve done some of that work
myself. It’s pretty interesting. You’ve got to look at it.
By the way, when you do that – because you might be wrong and by the way,
just say that you’re wrong. Say that there really are alien abductions. I don’t
think they are, but say that there are. You believe it. Well, if there really are and
I say there aren’t and I’m positive there aren’t, then I’m going to go and study
something else, but all of the sudden we’ll find out five years later that I was
one step away from being right and having a great amount of knowledge about
something and it’s a huge thing.
By the way, that’s what makes wealthy people wealthy. They tend to do some
things quite well and one of the things I know among the people that I hang out
with, a lot of us do okay, is that they’re always learning. They never quit
learning and they really don’t know it all. They’re constantly just self-educating.
I was at Jeffrey Gitomer. He wrote The Little Red Book of Selling, the sales
Bible. He’s just a genius. You would think that somebody like this who speaks,
that’s a stupid enormous fee that I don’t paid. It’s unfair. Okay? I’m at his place
and I walk in. I have a big library. I have 3,000 books plus or minus. We make
donations and stuff like that to the library. I walked into Jeffrey’s house and he
had a library of at least 10,000 or 12,000 volumes. I said, what the hell is this?
He said, you know Kevin, I just love to learn. Everybody I know, my mentor,
everybody who’s successful loves to learn and they keep just sticking new stuff
in their mind. This is one of the things that – and I don’t want to knock NLP, not
at all. I think there’s a lot of cool stuff in NLP and I utilize it. I’ve written about it,
but I think because it’s such a closed field, because once you’ve learned maybe
four or five trainings, you’ve really got it. You might catch nuggets here and
there, but you’ve probably got it.
You can advance so much by learning conversational hypnosis and various

fields like Ericksonian hypnosis and direct authoritarian, all this stuff. There’s
stuff to be learned, but just keep expanding. Then if you can occasionally
tolerate the guy who actually tests this stuff to actually know what’s real, all of
the sudden you can get smarter. You get better.
The closer that you match reality, the more power you have. So if you really do
like to have control – and if you’re in hypnosis and you tell me that you don’t, I
find it hard to believe. I love to have control. I tell people, Igor, that I’m a control
freak as opposed to be an out-of-control freak.
Igor: I like that.

Kevin: Just be honest with yourself. You love this stuff, you want to be in control and
you want to be able to run people’s brains, its fine. It’s okay. Just make good
choices, but it’s all right. Knowing that, test and find out what it is that you’re
good at and bad at, instead of thinking I’m amazing. Ninety percent of my
clients quit smoking cigarettes. Perhaps, but I seriously doubt it.
By the way, we tested that and we haven’t been able to find it yet. That’s part of
the deal is finding out what’s real. The more you match reality, the more power
you have because the better your map is. The better your map is, the more
accurate the terrain of the topographical map is that you have. It’s not a piece
of paper anymore it’s a topographical three-dimensional map that you have of
the world instead of this little piece of paper that you want to fold or something
that you look at on a computer screen that’s just two-dimensional.
So you really want to think in terms of how am I incorrect? I’m going to test it.
How would I test that? How can I test it? How else can I test it? Find out if it
works and if it really does, cool. By the way, you don’t have to test to see if it’s
going to work for everybody. You really just probably have to test to see if it
works for you, but don’t get caught up and believe that something’s going to
work if you really don’t know it’s going to work.
It might have worked twice in a row, but then again, you can throw seven twice
in a row at the table in Las Vegas and think God, I got this down to a science
and put all your money down and the next time you roll craps and you’ve lost
your money, so just have wisdom. One of the things about Erickson, he was
very wise. I think Erickson knew that he didn’t know it all and that’s why he
listened to his clients way more than he ever talked.
Igor: That’s an important part that gets missed. People think that you have to be able
to walk into a situation, instantly size it up and then just start speaking and the
right things come out. That is as far from the truth as you can get. Hypnosis is
one of the most interactive disciplines you can get.
You either would do what Erickson did, which is just this whole interaction in the
beginning. In other words, all the fact finding at the beginning and then puts it
all together and has a big kind of verbal hypnotic dump at the end, or you do
the fact finding in the middle of the process and you’re constantly adjusting as
you go along so you find a way as you go along.
Either way, you have to navigate the highway of someone’s mind with
feedback. I can’t even conceive of doing it without any feedback because then
you’re doing it blind. You might as well be reading a script. That’s one of the
reasons I hate scripts because they have no ability to adapt to what’s actually
happening in front of you.

Kevin: One of the things you learn when you’re in a cult is that if you shut up and you
let the other person talk, the ratio that, that person talks to the amount that you
talk will get that person feeling better, they’ll be well and they’ll be more easily
influenced by the process that you’re doing. If you talk, things don’t happen. If
they talk, stuff happens. It’s really a remarkable thing. It sounds odd, but it’s
very true. Let that other person talk. You’re just there to direct traffic. You’re like
the police officer. He points that way and that way.
I’m telling you, when you have that kind of power – just think of an attractive
woman, a very beautiful woman like Scarlett Johansen or Angelina Jolie and
just imagine that she looks at you. Maybe if you’re a woman too because I’ll tell
you what, I’ve heard.
Anyway, just imagine that she’s pointing at you and then she turns her hand
palm up and she has just one finger pointed out toward you. It’s her index
finger. Just imagine that she curls her index finger back toward herself, as if
she’s summoning you. I promise you, if you’re a male, you will follow that
command and you will go there. Would you agree, Igor.
Igor: I think so. I’m already going there myself.
Kevin: The point is that she doesn’t have to say would you come here and talk to me?
Similarly, as you find out that less words are more words, you literally will,
maybe not quite as powerful as Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansen, but you
will be able to look at somebody, just make eye contact and use that exact
same gesture that they use and most of the time you’ll be able to draw people
to you.
Maybe today, maybe not, but in six weeks or six months of a little bit of
personal mastery training like you’re doing here, learn so covert hypnosis
techniques and all of the sudden you’ll have that aura where you appear certain
and yet humble all at the same time. It’s a very cool charismatic feel that, that
person has because it’s so unusual.
Then when you do make your little gesture, people will come. It is fascinating to
experience. It’s a very powerful thing. You can get kind of high, almost euphoric
on having that kind of power.
Igor: I could sit here all night long, but we’ll be focusing on these sorts of things in
the next seminar portion. Unfortunately, Kevin, as much as I hate to do this, I’m
going to have to cut you off at this point just because we’re running out of time.
The first thing I want to do before we finish up is this. A lot of these principles
we’ve been talking about, some of them you’ll be sharing with us as we go
through the seminar portion of the interview in the next few sessions, but all of
these are really detailed and documented, giving you all the whys, wherefores,

the applications and so on in your covert hypnosis home study program. It’s an
8-CD program with a special operating manual with some more cool bits
included in it.
I like to think of the operating manual as like a little treasure chest of gold
nuggets. It’s not necessarily ordered in any particular order, but each and every
nugget you find, you look at it and go, oh my God, I’m so going to use this and
I’ll use it well. It’s a wonderful collection of information when it comes to this
covert influencing field.
I believe they can find copies of that at KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. Is that

correct?
Kevin: That’s exactly right.
Igor:
♦ Can you give us a quick synopsis of the things you do in that?
Kevin: You have to be able to tell a story great. If you can’t tell a story and tell it
covertly to where it’s powerful and it says something about you while you tell
the story, you’re wasting some of your time and you’re wasting a lot of your
power. That’s the first thing.
So I’ll show you how to do stuff that you don’t learn at NLP training or at almost
anybody’s training– how to tell a story well.
The next thing I’ll show you is that there are, 16-driver Stephen Reiss has
cataloged and found from Ohio State. Sure enough, when you look at it and
you do the research, there are 16 basic areas, basic drives that we have. If you
can learn to ask questions to other people in each of these drives, whether it’s
sex drive or whatever, if you can ask questions that are just subtle and gentle,
all of the sudden you will direct people’s minds.
I’ll give you like two hours of how to do that, plus it’s detailed. That’s actually
detailed brilliantly in the book, if I could say that. I think that’s probably one of
the highlights of the book.
Then there’s just the model itself and learning. There’s a lot to the covert
model. I wish I could tell you it’s a super easy process, but it’s not. Thinking is
required. This is not for Kindergarten 101 hypnosis people. This is for people
who have already started to evolve with NLP and hypnosis and they sort of
understand processes. Now you’re going to learn all the rest of the stuff that
you were hoping that they would teach you.

So that’s the covert model and you’ll be able to pretty much do anything you
want to do. I’ll show you some new meta programs, because that’s an area of
fascination for me. I’ll show you how to analyze people very quickly with two
questions, maybe three. How to tell what kind of person you’re talking to. Some
unique personality characteristics that you probably would never have thought
of asking people and you’ll be able to sort of know how to communicate with
that person quickly.
There’s a lot more, but that’s a breakdown right there. That’s worth the price of
the program and then some.
Igor: I’ve listened to it and I’ve got to say I strongly recommend it. I know that you’ll
be sharing some of the highlights of that program with us during the seminar
portion, as well as some of the newer stuff that you’ve been working with as
well. So we’ll get a nice taste of the thoughts and ideas and the movements
you’ve been making over the last 10 or 15 years as well. So I for one am very
excited to be hearing that on the next session.
♦ Before we finish up, is there anything else you want to add to what
we’ve been doing so far?
Kevin: I just want to say that, Igor, I do about 100 or 150 interviews a year with
everybody from Playboy to Cosmopolitan, The New York Times. You name it, I
do interviews. The people who are listening to you are fortunate. You won’t
hear this or read this in any of the other transcripts of interviews.
You guys have somebody that is in a forefront of your consciousness who

really gets it and there are not a lot of people in this field who have the depth of
knowledge that Igor has. Those of you who know me too know that I don’t say
that about anybody. So you’re very fortunate. You’ve done well to capture Igor
into your field of consciousness and stay there. Stay there. You’ve done well.
Igor: Wow. Thank you very much, Kevin. I really appreciate that. All that’s left for me
to say is I look forward to catching you on the next session. I’m very excited. I
know I’m going to learn some cool things from you.
My name is Igor Ledochowski from StreetHypnosis.com and I’ve been talking to

Dr. Kevin Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. Until the next time,
thank you very much and I look forward to seeing you guys then.

Seminar 1 – Part 1
Igor: Welcome to StreetHypnosis.com. My name is Igor Ledochowski and I’m here
with Master Hypnotist, Dr. Kevin Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis.
Kevin Hogan is one of the true innovators in the field of hypnosis. He actually
invented the field of covert hypnosis, as opposed to some of the other
disciplines, like Ericksonian hypnosis, NLP that make use of covert strategies.
He’s the first person to actually go totally down the covert route.
Today, I’m particularly excited to have him here because we’re taking the first
sort of seminar part of the interview in which Kevin has agreed to actually
outline for us how his system of cover hypnosis works and then in the next
session, we’ll go into how to actually apply it in our day to day life.
First, welcome back, Kevin.
Kevin: Thank you. It is very nice to be here, Igor. How are you doing?
Igor: I’m doing great and I’m just excited to be talking to you again today. In the last
session during the Interview, we went through all kinds of different little strolls
through your mind and your approach to hypnosis in your lifespan and I’m
fascinated by it.
I think you’ve really touched on something important and it’s something that I’m
really looking forward to getting into today in more detail, which is the difference
between what you do with hypnosis and the context in which you do it.
♦ Of the two, the second is the most important, isn’t it?
Kevin: Yes. You know what else too? Remember the first time you were exposed to
NLP, just the very first time and how it’s exciting and you feel like you’re
opening a new door to a new world? Well, that might have waned with NLP, but
I’ll tell you with covert hypnosis, it’s like that every day, every week, every year
because it’s got so much latitude and it’s constantly growing. It’s just so cool.
Igor: Well, I want to thank you for actually being willing to share some of those
insights with us and giving us a taste of how we can add that, whether people
are doing hypnosis already or NLP already that just want to tweak things a little
bit and make it more powerful. Or, people who really want to go full tilt into this
new field and really explore all the possibilities.
I’ve read some of the research and we’ve had many conversations ourselves,
so I know that there is really an exciting ton and wealth of material waiting to be
discovered. I think we should just dive in and do that now.
Kevin: Have at it.

Igor: So to start the whole process off, let’s start with fundamentals because I think it
you get the basis right, everything else starts making more sense. Let’s start
with the basic attitude that you take.
♦ What is hypnosis for you?
♦ How do you approach it as a discipline?
Kevin: Good question, two things. First, I don’t want to claim that I have the answer to
what is hypnosis because I’m not that smart. Everybody has a little bit different
idea as to what that is, but for me, the way that I approach it is that hypnosis is
one of the two things and this is just for me.
First is Hilgard’s dissociation, where you can have one set of experience going
on over here and another over there. So, for example, you and I could be in
conversation, the waitress comes up to us at the table and you and I are so
deep in conversation that I cannot hear what she’s saying, or even be aware
that she’s there. Does that make sense? So I’m dissociated from here.
Igor: So you have your experience, all your attention is so loaded in one direction
that there’s nothing left for the other. There’s nothing left for the outside world,
which means your mind has been taken away from it.
Kevin: That’s it. So that’s the first piece of hypnosis. The other part is state
dependence. You know, like state dependent memory. If a person’s at the bar
last night and they’re drinking alcohol and they get a little bit drunk and they
have a conversation with the girl next to them.
Then they go home and talk to their roommate or whatever and they say hey,
so what was she like? Of course, this is the next morning and he hasn’t been
drinking in the morning and he won’t remember a lot of the conversation
interestingly enough.
He actually probably won’t remember until he’s actually been drinking alcohol
again. So that’s just one example of state dependent memory, where if you
want to remember a time when you were very sad, then it’s probably good to be
in a very melancholy mood. If you want to remember a time that was very
exciting or fascinating, you have to be in the excited or fascinated mood.
Literally, that just sort of puts you in the state, able to recall and to sort of place
yourself in that kind of mental environment. When you can do that; to me that’s
real hypnosis. When you’ve got a person in a specific location feeling a very
specific set of feelings and perhaps emotions too where everything else is on
the outside and once you do that you create a very small space in the person’s
mind where the person can do business with you, so to speak.

Igor: I think we’ve talked about this before and we came up with a very nice analogy.
The idea of the mind is full of rooms. Each room is a particular mood or state
and you think about the happy room, which is where memories of your parents
and your friends and all that is put inside. You have the sad room, which is the
time you messed up or your girlfriend left you and that sort of stuff.
When you walk into each room, that’s when those memories are most easily
accessible. You can sometimes peek around the corner from one room to the
other if they’re close enough, but really you have to be in the room to get the
full benefit of it.
What trance does – and this is the way I like to look at it – is it’s a separate
room in the house. It’s an empty room it’s the room of ideas almost where you
get to go in. You get to re-arrange the furniture, play around with it, try different
things out things you’ve never done before.
Then say maybe my bedroom could look good like this or maybe my living
room would be comfortable like this and when you like it, then you go back into
your living room, back into your bedroom and you rearrange the furniture
knowing exactly how to do it now because you’ve had a trial run already.
Kevin: That’s such an elegant metaphor. I just love that and I’m going to borrow from
you for the rest of my life. Just so you know. I make one distinction that’s
different from you. I love the way you describe it. The only distinction is, for me,
hypnosis is when you take a person to the state where you want them to be
taken, whether it’s because they asked you or you’re just doing it directly from
your intention.
So if that state was the happy state or whatever and we get that person there,
for me, I’ve now accomplished the goal of placing them into one of those rooms
in the house. The way that I view it, it doesn’t have to be the room where we
rearrange the furniture, although I will say having that room is very cool.
Igor: I know exactly where you’re going with this. This actually really comes back
down to the basis of your approach, which we started talking about in the
Interview session, which is this idea that you’re trying to cause people to do a
simple behavior in the direction of what you want.
As a result, they’re cognitions, their thoughts and their beliefs start

running around that behavior, building that reality almost from the ground
up, which then makes sense, of course, that you’re going into these
rooms of different states – the happy room, the excited room, the sad
room or whatever – because states drive behavior, don’t they?

Kevin: Absolutely. It’s amazing when you get a person into a specific set of emotions
or moods or drives – the sex drive or the desire to eat or a desire to be
independent or any of these kind of things – they’re in a room right there and
once they’re there, then they can be cued. I know this sounds complicated, but
they can be cued super-liminally or subliminally to actually do stuff that you
would not believe you could do just by snapping your fingers or having a cup of
coffee on the table. Interesting things happen.
Igor:
♦ And you’ll be sharing some of those secrets with us later on in this
series, will you not?
Kevin: Absolutely.
Igor: Now something that is very interesting that you said a moment ago. It’s another
little tag. I borrowed this from a friend of mine who always said – and I think this
is very ingenious and very, very insightful – don’t change people’s minds;
change their moods. If you change their moods, their mind will follow. That’s
pretty much the essence of what we’re talking about here, right?
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. By directing the emotion or the drive, one of the two – happy,
sad, disgusted, contempt, anger, hostility or any of those emotions – or by
taking any of the drives, any of the 16 drives that people have and I’m not going
to talk about that word 16 all the time.
I just want people to know that there’s a lot of stuff that drives our behaviors,
but once you know them, they’re very predictable and it’s very easy to hook
people into a specific driver to get them to get off their butt and go do
something in life.
Igor: Now before we get into the nitty-gritty of those things – I think those are very
important, but a couple of other things we need to establish as the foundation to
your system. The question that’s always on people’s lips is this.
Where is it that you stand on direct versus indirect hypnosis because it

sounds very much like what you’re doing is indirect, but somehow it’s not
quite what people think of when we talk about indirect hypnosis either?
Kevin: You’re right. This is what happens when you reinvent the rules is that it doesn’t
fall into the old-fashioned. So for me, when I think about direct hypnosis –
because I don’t believe that suggest hypnosis is really worth your time. Direct
hypnosis almost implies that the person is sitting in the chair and that you’re
“putting them in trace,” and that they’re going to do something via suggestion.

The probability that, that kind of work is going to stick is pretty small. In other
words, you’re doing all the talking and they’re doing all the listening. So I’ve
never been a big fan of direct hypnosis, but it does work quite well on the stage.
So when you watch a good stage hypnotist or a magician, say who does stage
work, somebody like Darren Brown over in London, these guys are good with
direct work.
Now it’s not real per se, but it’s cool for entertainment. When you have that
authority, then the suggestion stuff works quite well, but usually direct has like a
placebo type of effect in my mind, the way that I look at it. There are always
exceptions to the rule. We can talk about those if you want to.
Then indirect hypnosis, obviously, it’s important to understand but it’s

incomplete and when people are doing indirect hypnosis using language
patterns and sort of walking people around in their mind, sometimes they’re so
indirect for so long that they’re communicating too much indirect information, if
you will.
So they’ll talk too long and the person actually won’t be making changes in their
mind and going to the rooms that you want them to and accomplishing the work
because you’re not letting them have a chance to actually be the driver of the
bus.
These are both really good. Actually, indirect is far superior to direct hypnosis.
Indirect is great, but once a person adds covert to the toolbox, now it becomes
a monstrous-sized toolbox and indirect hypnosis becomes even more valuable.
Igor: This reminds me of something that I normally emphasize to my students as well

in terms of indirect hypnosis. There are two key mistakes people make.
Number one is the unwillingness to pause.
It’s those moments when you actually stop talking that the other person starts
processing stuff, doing the stuff you talked about and leaving those gaps for
processing is possibly one of the most important things you can do. Particularly,
as an indirect hypnotist because that’s when it starts taking, when all the seeds
start burrowing down in the ground and so on, not at the end of a session when
they’re going home, but in the actual trance session itself before you go on with
the next piece of work.
Number two, is that a lot of times people get so, shall we say excited by the
indirect methods, they become so indirect, so subtle shall we say in what they
do, that even the other person’s unconscious mind can’t detect it.
If your client’s unconscious mind can’t detect what you’re doing or get the hint
of what you’re trying to hint at really indirectly, then there’s nothing happening.

Kevin: That’s it. There’s not a nice way to say this. There are a lot of self-stroking
involved in indirect hypnosis that if people sort of get out of themselves and go,
what’s my goal here and what do I want to do for this person, they’ll use it much
more sparingly and elegantly.
All of our heroes and models in the field of hypnosis, NLP, covert hypnosis are
at the front of the room. We look at them and they’re talking the whole time
they’re at the front of the room because they’re teaching us. So we sort of come
up with this belief that if we talk a lot that we’re going to do well for our client,
but that isn’t the case and we won’t process that information at home, not at all.
It has to be processed right there, at least to the degree where the seeds are all
planted. So the person has the seeds and they plant all the seeds after you
direct them to the various locations to plant at. Once they plant the seeds and
they realize what they’ve done, then when they go home, now stuff happens.
Igor: Right. It’s kind of like starting a fire. If the fire goes out before they actually
leave the session, it’s not going to get started at home again, but if you can get
a nice little flame going and that’s going to start burning more and more and by
the time they get home, there’s a whole bonfire going on inside their mind.
That’s when massive changes happen.
Kevin: You do seeds, I do fire whatever, okay, a beautiful metaphor. Absolutely fine.
The whole deal with indirect suggestion, indirect hypnosis really is that you’re
reducing resistance. If you look at Erickson’s work, that’s really what’s
happening. The reason that people would go see Erickson, for example, is
because they didn’t get results with their doctor or their therapist or their
psychologist and they wanted special help.
People don’t just go, oh, I want to go see Milton Erickson in 1960. Nobody
knows who that is. They want the guy who’s the last chance guy. The reason
he got success where everybody failed is because the person couldn’t
communicate with the doctor, the psychologist, the therapist and those other
people.
Erickson was perfect. He was amazing at reducing resistance to rubble. That

was just his deal. If people think what’s my goal with the indirect work it is to
reduce resistance because once you do that, the person has opened the door
to their mind and allowed you to walk in. Now you can rearrange furniture
yourself if you want.
Igor: Exactly. Something that Erickson did a lot as well and actually a lot of people
comment about it, but very few people actually dissect how he actually set this
up is the stuff that you talk about in covert hypnosis, which is the setup.

How do you create a setup so that you don’t actually have to do that much and
the other person just naturally goes in one direction or another? He’d kind of
nudge them in one direction and that night it slowly becomes an avalanche. He
was a real genius at figuring how what setup does this person need to nudge
them in the right direction so that the avalanche is pretty much guaranteed to
happen.
Kevin: Correct. You said it well enough. I’ll avoid the replication.
Igor: In that case, what’s the next step? We know how you use direct hypnosis. We
have a good sense, I think of how you think of indirect hypnosis.
♦ As far as you’re concerned, how do you view this idea of covert

hypnosis and how does it fit in with the other forms that we’ve
already discussed?
Kevin: Covert hypnosis sort of fills in all the holes. For example, we say words to a
person who’s standing in front of us and we believe that they’re going to make
changes because we say words, but that’s not true. We make changes when
you create an emotion or a motion in somebody else, when you get them to
take an action.
If you think about it, if you ever follow up with clients or with friends or with
whatever people that you work with, six months later or six weeks later, you’ll
find that you’re not as amazing as you think you are. I’m not as amazing as I
think I am when I follow up either.
Covert allows you to actually get people to make a change, literally, right there
without having to think too much about it. You’re actually getting the person to
make a change now, at which point they have this sort of self-justification for
that action or that belief that they just experienced. So would you go to church
with me on Sunday? You take the person to church and now all of the sudden
they have this entire new way of looking at themselves through the filter of their
actions.
We’re all sort of post-action people anyway. In other words, the way that we
really live, if you think about it, is we take actions in this half second and then in
the very next half second, we analyze what we did, justify it and we believe
that’s who we are. That’s how the brain thinks.
In other words, I might smack somebody on the cheek and I might give them a
little slap on the cheek and then a half second later I’ll go, why did I do that? I
did it because of this. Perhaps I’m telling a story from the front of the stage and
I’m like, wait a second, that’s not exactly how it really happened down in
Australia when I was there.

What really happened was this. The words are coming out of my mouth as if it’s
true, but it’s really what I call a collapsed story, which is where this all
happened over a week’s period, but I’m making it sound like it happened all in
one day. Does that make sense?
Igor: Exactly. Part of the skill of storytelling is that you can actually get the essence
of the meaning, the essence of the experience out without necessarily getting
bogged down in the details.
Something you just mentioned that I’d like to kind of emphasize again for
everyone listening because again, I think it’s very insightful and important.
It’s this idea of, which direction does the change come from? In neuroscience
and particularly the idea of neuroplasticity, they talk about bottom up changes
and top down changes. Top down changes are the kind of things that everyone
tries. NLP is very good at this. You visualize something. You think about
something. You do something in your mind on purpose, in other words,
consciously.
By doing this over a period, of time it engrains a certain way of being, a pattern
of thinking or whatever and that changes your subconscious, in other words,
your emotions, feelings, behaviors etc. A classic example of this is, of course,
cognitive behavioral therapy. You keep talking to yourself in certain ways and
eventually you’ll get it. But the other side, which I find fascinating, is the idea of
bottom up changes. These changes happen without us even knowing about it.
My example for this would normally be when you look at the things you used to
eat and the games you used to play as a child and you look at how you dress,
eat and play now. They’re totally different, but if I asked you when you made
that change, you have no idea because it happened unconsciously first and
your consciousness caught up with it long after the change was made.
So what you’re suggesting now is to replicate that bottom up change process.

In other words, you’re creating a change that is so subtle, so unconscious really
that the conscious has no mediation. It just happens virtually automatically, as a
result, of which it kicks in the whole process of consciousness catching up
afterwards and creating a new reality around that idea because we always have
to rationalize our behavior, especially the ones that are most irrational.
Kevin: That’s it, to take that to one example. When I travel to Vegas – and I go to
Vegas a lot for trainings and just to have fun. It’s a place I enjoy going also. So
if I had a group of people up in my room – I usually get a little room where we
can fit like 20 people. So maybe I’m trying to figure out where I want to take
everybody that night.

What I’ll do is I’ll open up one of the magazines on the coffee table in the living
room and then I’ll open it to a specific location, a specific page to the kind of a
show that I might want to go see. Like maybe a Cirque show, for example. So
I’ll open it to a Cirque show.
Then literally, I don’t point it out, I don’t mention it, but we’re trying to figure out
– it’s like okay, guys, where should we go tonight? So maybe I have KA which
is a really cool Cirque show, or LOVE.
So all of the sudden people are like, you know what? We should go see KA or
LOVE or some other show like that. Then all of the sudden I’ll go, well, how
would you like it if we went to this one? I was looking at this in the magazine.
Then all of the sudden people go, oh you know what? I think I actually saw that
somewhere in your place here.
That’s how the subtleties work and actually cause changes in people’s mind.
Little tiny things that you would not imagine can cause people to change their
mind. Again, covert hypnosis. Subtle covered influence. That’s what covert
hypnosis is. Its subtle influence, so subtle I don’t have to say a word if I don’t
want to.
Igor: Right. I think the penny first dropped for me on this approach – I think it’s an
ingenious approach – when believe it or not, I was watching that TV reality
show called Big Brother. They had one particular episode I remember where
they had all the people in the house making some kind of communal decision.
Essentially, it was meant to be a flat structure.
Everyone has equal say and whatnot but, of course, over the period of a couple
of weeks, one of the people in the house had developed the leadership quality.
They became the unconscious leader, if you like.
The thing that really fascinated me was this. They sat down discussing how we
should go about making this decision for the house, whatever it was. This
person just totally casually started talking about, well, I think we should all go
around in a circle and just give our opinion.
Now as you’re saying those words – go around in a circle – he actually started

pointing. I think he pointed to his left first and then one by one, he pointed out
the people in the room, just totally casually and then he finished up making his
point. Everyone nodded and do you know what happened? The person to his
left, the first person he pointed to was the first to speak and then the next
person and the next person and the next person and so on.
In other words, he totally primed that group to make a decision the way he had
envisioned it and he didn’t even know he’d done it.

Kevin: Well, that’s so beautiful because that’s a great example of the kind of the work
that we do, where once again, it’s like you don’t have to say anything. You
might think, gosh, I don’t get to do anything, but actually what happens is you
get these amazing results and you learn how to be creative in very simply
ways. That’s a beautiful example of just another way to utilize this tool.
I always tell people, if you can get one person – here’s the deal– to use your
circle scenario, if you have a group full of people in a room and you were to do
that and pull the audience, there are only two things you have to do to cause
total compliance.
The first is to have the very first person emulate the words that you would be
thinking and that would be your sort of confederate, friend or the person that
you want to act on your behalf.
Then you need one person to tell the group or to tell you as the leader of the
group that, that idea is just a great idea. Yes, let’s go see KA. That would be
awesome. He’s right. Now at this point, the internal pressures – even if
somebody was thinking, God, you know, I really wanted to go see a comedian
or a different show, now all of the sudden everybody’s going to go, you know
what, that’s a good idea.
As the social proof sort of comes in and builds, if you will, the social agreement,
the pressures – it’s like a pyramid. So the first person leaves the foundation and
then at each level, it’s easier for the following person to do this and the
resistance by the time you get to the back of the room, there is no resistance
left so subtle, beautiful and perfect.
Igor: It actually reminds me of a study that I read about some time ago now, which I
was fascinated by, again, around the idea of social compliance. This is how
extreme it can go. This can go very extreme.
So they had people, like a dozen or 15 people in a room who were supposed to
be doing some random psychological test. What the people in the room didn’t
know was that only one person in the room who was being tested studied.
Everyone else in the room were actors or confederates who were in on the gag,
so to speak.
What they started doing is halfway through the psychological test and people
were playing with their computer and pressing numbers and whatever it is they
were doing, they had a little vent built in and it started blowing in smoke, Acrid
smoke. At first it’s just little puffs of smoke and then it starts getting hotter and
more and more intense to the point that it’s like collecting on the ceiling or the
floor or wherever it collects.

This is the interesting part. All 14 of these stooges ignored the smoke like it
didn’t even exist. They just carried on doing their test, no problem at all, right? I
actually saw the video of this and this was the crazy part. The one person who
was being tested, who was actually being used as the test subject – and they
repeated this, of course, hundreds of times – the one person who was being
tested gets a whiff of smoke, looks at it, frowns, looks around. Everyone’s calm,
so he just carried on doing his thing.
It gets worse. He looks around. Everyone’s calm and he just carries on. I mean
to the point where there’s smoke burning around the whole room. He’s looking
around. He’s a little bit worried, but everyone else is just calmly typing away, so
you literally see him shrug his shoulders and carry on typing.
Kevin: That is beautiful.
Igor: That’s crazy. I mean think about it. What’s going on here is in his mind – I mean
I know what I’d be thinking is, FIRE Death! Get out! But no, social compliance
keeps him rooted in his seat. This is a very powerful mechanism.
Kevin: A quick tag-on story only. I was doing a certification training in Minneapolis and
we were doing regression therapy, but I was trying to show what past life
regression therapy was like, so I brought in a past life regression therapist
because I really am not very spiritual and all that kind of stuff.
So anyway, the gal is doing past life regression. The fire alarm goes off about
an hour into this regression. I’m sitting at the back of the room and everybody
looks at me when the fire alarm goes off and I just sit there more intensely
focused on what’s going on at the front of the room.
As soon as everybody checked and looked back at me, they realized that we’re
doing therapy here, we’re actually doing business. About four minutes later,
there was a knock on the door, it was Melissa Barnes. She comes to the front
door and she says Kevin, are you aware that there’s a fire alarm going off,
we’ve got to get out of here.
I said, you know what, we’ll be fine. We have a door right there. We can
actually get out of the fire. Everything’s cool. She said, so it’s all right if we’re
okay? I said, yes it’s absolutely fine. She’s like, oh good. Thank God.
Lives could have been lost because they believed that I actually had some
amazing – because of authority. I mean if I would have been any other student
in the room, it would have been very different because then, of course, they
would have looked at that person and gone, he’s insane I’m leaving.

But they looked at me, the authority figure at the moment in this specific context
and they said oh well, Kevin’s fine, so It’s probably fine. I kept thinking in my
head, of course, I’m not fine. I’m like, Jesus, what if this really is a big fire?
Igor: Let’s see if we can jump out that window or something like that, right?
Kevin: It’s just a tag-on to your story about the smoke because it’s the same story, but
it’s just another way of telling it. It’s a great example. I was unfamiliar with that
research. That’s cool. That’s very cool.
Igor: Actually, what I really like about your stories – because we’ve just gone through
the next step. The research was talking about group compliance, so an
individual complying with a group and you’ve taken it a step further, which is to
say that you can invest the power of a group in an individual, in this case
yourself as the authority figure, the seminar leader, the guru or whatever it
happens to be. By doing so, the whole nature of the reality in the room shifts. It
changes and people are willing to adopt your view of the world, adopt your
judgment on safety or whatever, an important thing people can’t forget.
We talked about before, when you say to someone, I’m a hypnotist and they
believe you, that itself is a hypnotic reality in action and that’s part of the power
we have as hypnotists if we want to be more overt about it; it shouldn’t be
underestimated.
Kevin: Not at all. By creating the establishment of authority in the other person’s mind,
the person will now comply with most of what you say.
Igor: Right and this is one of the reasons I think that you talk about covert hypnosis
not being about processes, but about something else.
Kevin: Yeah and that’s not to say that there are not processes in covert hypnosis, but
it’s not build around processes. A lot of times, when a process would be helpful,
we just borrow it from NLP. Most of covert hypnosis is really about thinking
latitudinally wide and to know what to do in the moment because you have so
much knowledge that it’s like oh, I’ll just do this right now.
I want the person to behave this way, so I’ll do this. You actually think about it a
little bit in advance and you just prepare in a very simple way.
So it’s actually bits and bits of elements of information and chunks put into a
model of behavior that’s really quite elegant once you get used to using it. It
doesn’t have to be a lot of processes. So that’s a bit of a distinction.

Igor: I think we’ve got a fairly decent handle on what covert hypnosis is and how that
compares to, shall we say indirect hypnosis or direct hypnosis actually. I guess
the next question would be in terms of covert hypnosis…
♦ What are the main advantages of it compared to the other stuff

that’s out there and how can you actually start using it?
♦ Can you give us some examples of covert hypnosis actually in

action in a way that makes the world a better place?
Kevin: Sure. Well, covert – covered, so you don’t see it. Typically, you don’t see it.
Sometimes you’ll hear it because there are words involved, but not very often,
hypnosis influence or state dependent, getting somebody into a specific state.
So what’s covert hypnosis? Cover hypnosis is subtle influence. It has so many

advantages to work complimentary with NLP and hypnosis, or to work with the
tools and techniques and foundational principles. Just in itself, you don’t have
NLP and stand hypnosis in the mix. The advantages are that it doesn’t require
a lot of intelligence, but it requires that you be intelligent to learn the breadth of
information that’s out there that can cause changes in other people’s behavior.
In other words, what can I do? What will change this person’s behavior? What
subtle tiny things could I do? Like where to sit, the lighting and all that kind of
stuff. So that’s just one thing.
Now if you had to break it down, what would covert hypnosis best be described
as? Well, it’s a model. It’s a model where you have a problem or somebody has
a problem and then you are going to intervene and through a set of questions,
you’ll find out how you’re going to solve the problem with or for the other
person.
By the way, controlling another person’s mind can be an extremely important

thing and I don’t want to pretend like getting inside of somebody’s head and
pushing the buttons for them isn’t important. A lot of people who are into the
ethical debate think that that’s wrong, but I’ll tell you what. If you really want to
make a difference in the world, you do need to be able to have the power to go
inside of somebody else’s head and push buttons at will to get them to do want
you want to do.
This is my whole life back in the 1990s when I was doing work with drug
prevention and drug abuse. The goal was not to try to give kids choices and try
to give them a choice as to whether or not they should do drugs at age 12, no.
Igor: Otherwise, you may as well tell them hey, do you want to do heroin?

Kevin: That’s exactly right. So people need to know that it’s okay to be in control. At
my job, the schools would bring me in literally. This one principal took his
fingers and he put his 10 fingers – his five fingers on each hand together like
they were typing against each other.
He says, you know we brought you in because you do this. Then you see my
hands typing like two hands typing together on each other. In other words, I’m
pushing buttons in their brain, right? That was why they brought me in. They
wanted me to get a message wired into these people’s minds who are very
formidable at age 12.
They’ve already developed some attitudes and beliefs. The programs that
Americans offer, bringing police officers in and all this kind of stuff actually
cause drug abuse. I don’t want to get into a big drug issue here, but the whole
point, of course, is that when your child, your little sister, your brother, your
nephew is in the street, the car is coming, the car is coming fast. You need to
make sure that you have the ability to get that child out of the street.
You’re 100 feet away, but the car is only 20 feet away. It’s not like you want to
give the person choice. You want to be able to know what to say specifically,
rapidly, boom, to where the child goes, oh okay, Uncle Kevin and he comes
racing toward you. The car is coming and he never would have seen it.
That’s the power that you need to be able to have you can use this exact same
power to do anything bad and evil that you want. If that’s really what people are
going to do, well, that’s really pretty disgusting, but I can’t repair all of society. I
can only good people what to do with power and control and its okay to be in
control when you’re doing it to save somebody’s life, when you’re doing it to
make their life better.
A lot of people will not get off their butt and go to work at something that they
enjoy. They’ll sit in a hamster wheel for the rest of their life doing stuff that they
hate to do. I hate that. So what I’ll do is go, you know what and then I’ll zoom in
and 10 minutes later the person’s like geez, maybe I should start my little at-
home business.
Igor: Right. Well, it’s important, isn’t it? This is how most of our attitudes in life are
developed anyway. Parents try to instill their values in their kids. What is that if
not an act of control, an act of pushing buttons in someone’s head? Sometimes
it works better; sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes, as you said yourself, it’s there
and it will save a life.
My mother tells this story about us when we were kids. I was a bit of a
precocious child. We lived on like the third or fourth story of a tall building. One
day she’s coming back home from doing some shopping and she sees me
hanging off the balcony on the wrong side of the balcony. So I’m literally just

waving to her, hanging on with one hand from the balcony. A bit like I’ve seen
in Superman when the kid’s about to fall down Niagara Falls.
She’s like scared, but she knows that if she starts acting worried, then I’ll get
worried, which means I’ll probably lose my grip and then the worst happens. So
she comes upstairs and what she does is thinking. First, what can I do to get
him off the balcony without actually projecting worry because if I frighten him,
then he’ll be too frightened to climb over the banister and then it gets all messy,
right?
So she comes up to the front door and rather than opening the front door –
she’s got the keys, of course – she rings the bell because she knows one thing
about me. I am insatiably curious. The minute the doorbell rings, I want to know
who’s there. So she rings the doorbell, the maid’s coming across to the open
the door and stuff like that. Of course, I hear the doorbell, climb over the
banister and come running up to the door, seeing whose there and going, why
did you ring the doorbell? Why didn’t you open it with the key?
Of course, she knows that she’s just saved my life. I have no idea about this.
That, I think, is an example of what you’re talking about, which is the idea that
you know which buttons to push, you know when to push them and you know
why you’re pushing them to be a force for good, as opposed to something that
is there for purely personal gain at the expense of someone else.
There’s nothing wrong with personal gain when other people gain also. It’s
when it’s at the expense of them and that’s when it becomes less ethical.
Kevin: There are a lot of philosophies out there that are intentionally designed to
enrich the person who is at the front of the room. Boy, I’ll be very careful
because this is your show, but there’s a lot of stuff going on out there, a lot of
philosophies. It’s like, just think this and you’re life will change and everything
will be good for you. You don’t have to do anything. Just put the energy out
there and it will all come to you and everything will be good.
Then all of the sudden – I’d literally watch people go I’m going to have my
kitchen remodeled. How are you going to do it? Well, I don’t know, but the
universe will take care of me. Well, the fact is, is that I’m going to get inside of
that person’s head and make sure that they take care of themselves instead of
the universe taking care of them because the universe is very observant, but
it’s not very cause-related.
So there’s a lot that you can do to make a huge difference. I don’t want to
sound like I’m an altruist or anything. I think I’m pretty altruistic, but that’s not
my whole thing in life. I do like to have fun too and there’s a lot of fun you can
have with all of these tools and fun things. When you go to the restaurant and

play with the little waitress’s mind and all that kind of stuff. But do tip her well if
you’re going to do that.
Igor: It comes down to this idea of win-win in the end. We’re not talking about street
hypnosis, which is a thing close to my own heart. I think it’s similar to what
you’re talking about, which is the idea that you go out and use these hypnotic
principles, these ideas in the one area that it’s not actually applied it, which is
not stage hypnosis for entertainment, not therapeutic – although that has great
value also – but in the life that happens all the way in between.
If you want to be a salesman, be a better salesman. If you want to be a teacher,

be a better teacher. If you’re going out having fun, make sure that the world
around you is just lit on fire with fun. That way, everybody wins. This idea of
imposing your reality on the outside world, well, it’s something we do
unconsciously anyway all the time. If someone turns around and says, you’re
being manipulative, well, they’re manipulating you to try to stop doing those
things. In other words, they’re trying to force you into their reality, rather than
adopting your own.
So my opinion is just make sure that the reality you have is more fun, more
empowering and more rewarding for people around you than the ones that
they’re currently engaged in and that way everyone wins. You can’t lose that
way. Hell, if I find someone whose reality is more enriching than my own, I’m
sticking to them. I’m jumping on that bandwagon and saying, mess with my
mind. Do more of that, right.
Kevin: Absolutely. That’s the perfect approach to have to life in general because if you
do that, then life becomes more rewarding. It’s rich, it feels good and you know
what? When people start to do stuff that they like – I don’t know what your
income level is as you’re listening to this, but if you start to do things that you
enjoy, you not only enjoy getting up in the morning.
However, you are likely to make a lot more money in easier ways because
you’re doing stuff that you like and you’ll do it all day long, because it’s stuff that
you enjoy so you can change people’s lives in an amazing way, including your
own, with this technology.
Igor:
♦ Can you give us some examples of how this whole covert hypnosis
might actually look like in action?
Kevin: Wow. Well, can we start with story? Is that okay, or…
Igor: Absolutely! Stories are the way forward.

Kevin: I can do an event. I have influence boot camp that I hold every year down in
Vegas. It’s a four-day event; five days for my inner circle. What we do is we sort
of have all of these tools going on and people are learning all of the latest
technology in covert hypnosis and what’s going on out there and how to
influence.
At the end of each day, I tell a story that connects the dots on some of the
things – not all of them, but a few of the things that we did in the course of the
day. Some of these things are all about getting people to do things and a lot of
this is sort of NLP, hypnosis-type stuff. It’s maybe a five, seven-minute story at
the end of the day, but at the very end of the event, it’s a different story.
Can I tell the story of the girl that I met in Chicago?
Igor: Please tell that story. That is a beautiful story.
Kevin: The Psychology of Persuasion, which is not my first book, but it was the first
one that I really wanted to make big and we succeed at that. I was doing a book
tour and went down to Chicago. I had just done seven days and I was tired,
man.
When you sell a book, you make a dollar. We’d go to a bookstore and make
$10, $7, $8, $9, but we’re selling books, creating the model number. I go to the
Downers Store, Barnes & Noble just outside of Chicago.
This is 1996, summertime. I go into the front door and ask for the Consumer
Relations Representative. She’s off today. I said, I’m Kevin Hogan and I’m here
for this book signing. This guy looks at me and says well, I’m the manager and I
don’t think you’re supposed to be here. He pulls out his little yellow calendar
and he looks on there and he says oh, you are supposed to be here today.
Of course, at this I’m going oh, good job. He says oh, Psychology of
Persuasion, right. He punches up on his little cash register there and he’s like
oh, you know what? We have a copy of that, a copy.
Igor: Wow. That makes you feel very special, doesn’t it?
Kevin: I was feeling so amazing and I’m so successful because this is the success
book tour, right? So I said, well, okay. Now when you sign a book contract, you
have to do this event. You have to be there for an hour. It’s just part of your
deal with your publisher. So I said okay, well fine. Where would you like me to
sit? I don’t see any signs so nobody’s knows I’m going to be here today
anyway. Where do you want me to sit?

He said, well, you know back by the kid’s section back there, there’s a chair in
the alcove. Why don’t you sit in the chair and we’ll set up a table and we’ll put
your book on the table? Tom Clancy’s book, Executive Orders, came out this
very day. I said, if Tom Clancy walked in here, would you sit him back there by
the kids? The manager says, absolutely. I said, boy you lie about other stuff
too, don’t you.
I’ve now been humbled to my most humble and I’m angry. I’m frustrated and
I’m livid because I have issues with temper and impatience. So I go back there
and I sit down and I’m all frustrated and angry. I have an attitude problem right
now. So I’m sitting down and I’m wearing my coat and tie and all this kind of
stuff. So I sit there and I start fuming, as if this is going to make time go better
and the world will be a better place. No, not at all.
So here I am. I’m angry, pissed off and ticks away at one hour per second. All
of the sudden, maybe perhaps 10 or 15 minutes into sitting and fuming, I
looked up and about two sets of shelves down, there was a little girl in a yellow
Easter-type dress. It was springtime, so it might have been Easter time. She
was about the age of my daughter, who was 10 at the time. She was in a
wheelchair and her mom was another two sets of shelves down to the north.
I just said shoot, I’ll go talk to her because I always love talking to kids anyway
and I’ve got my own. I go over there and she’s looking at the books. I think
she’s looking at the books on the shelf and I say hey, my name’s Kevin Hogan.
What’s your name? She couldn’t turn to face me because she couldn’t move
and so I realized this quite quickly. It’s like, she can’t move.
I turned the wheelchair just about 45 degrees towards me and I said I’m Kevin
Hogan. What’s your name? She moved her eyes from left to right. I said oh,
you can’t talk. Is that right? And she moved her eyes up and down.
I said, ah, gotcha. I said, well, my name’s Kevin Hogan. I’m an author. Do you
want an author is? She moved her eyes up and down. I said well, an author you
know, I mean it’s somebody who writes books. Do you like books? And she
moves her eyes up and down. I’m like, cool. She’s 10 years old, so I said what
kind of books to you look? Do you like Barney books? Now Barney is for kids
who are three, four or five-years-old, right?
She moves her eyes left to right super fast– left, right, left, right, left, right– I say
oh, you don’t like Barney. I’m stupid. I’m looking up at the bookshelf and I’m like
oh, you like the Sweet Valley Twins books, right? She moved her eyes up and
down. I said, cool. Those are cool books. I read them to my daughter and
sometimes she just reads them herself.

She moves her eyes up and down, like my mom does it too. That’s sort of my
interpretation of this. She has no facial expression. She is consciousness inside
of a body that’s not moving and she has no ability to speak words or vocalize in
any way and this is tragic.
So anyway, I’m sitting there realizing now and it hit me as I’m having this
conversation with this little girl that I’m an idiot because here I am fuming five or
10 minutes ago because I don’t have 10 books to sell to a group of people. So I
start talking to her and I said, when you read, do you read a whole book in the
course of night? She’s up and down with her eyes.
Finally, her mom looks over at me and she’s a couple shelf units over to the
north side of the building. I just kind of gave her a Kevin Hogan Chicago little
wave the hand. I’m like don’t worry about it everything’s fine. The lady knew
that everything was fine.
So I look at the girl and she’s looking at a pin that I had made for this tour. It
was called the Success Pin. It’s a little gold pin. It didn’t cost all that much
money, but it was nice. It was on my lapel. She’s looking at this and I said, do
you like that? She moved her eyes up and down. I said do you know what
success is? She moved her eyes up and down. I go well, me too. I don’t know
what you think success, but success to me is when you make people happy.
At that point, a huge life cognition happened inside of my mind. This little girl
has now changed my life. I took the pin off of my lapel and pulled out her dress
just a little because it was tucked into her belt. In the upper left-hand corner of
her blouse area I tugged, I put the pin there, put the clasp on the back and
faced it right towards her face and said does that look good on you? She
moved her eyes up and down. I said, great, because success is when you
make people happy and you really made me happy today.
I gave her a kiss on her forehead and I straightened her dress back out. I
waved at her mom and I left the store. I cried all the way to Jamesville,
Wisconsin, which is about 90 miles from where I was at. The learning
experience that day, that I learned from that little girl who loved to read, who
loved to have her mom read to her, who I just sensed this feeling of heart
presence inside of her and I knew that my life would change and it did.
From that day forward, I became a much more patient and tolerant person of
what’s going on. I realized how freakin’ fortunate I was in my life.
There are two things important about this story. First, there’s the story because
it’s what happened. I mean it’s what happened that day in Chicago. It’s a cool
thing and I learned a lot from it. But from a covert hypnosis point of view,
there’s important stuff here too.

The thing is, when you tell a story, if you want to make the story valuable to
your audience and covert, which means you want to influence subtly. So, I’m
trying to get people to perform certain behaviors in the course of a training or in
the course of their life and I want people to have feelings because as soon as
you feel something, you’re more likely to do a behavior. You get into that state.
This is the end of the training.
I’ve put throughout this entire story little sentences and things that show that
Kevin Hogan is a pretty good guy, that he’s worth listening to and all those
kinds of little things that, if you said them about yourself, like I could have told
the story. I won’t do the whole thing, but I could have said, you know I’m a
wonderful person. I went to Chicago one day…
Igor: Right. That already sets the scene I’m just a great person. I’m so smart and I’m
a great author. People are going to love you for that.
Kevin: Correct. So when you tell stories, it’s best to put words – now the reason I tell
this story – and in the Covert Hypnosis Series, the 8-CD set, I think I tell this
story last out of three stories that I tell. The reason is, is because the other
person doesn’t have to be able to communicate in order for there to be learning
and for change to happen because the change happened to me that day. It
didn’t happen to her. It happened to me.
Igor: It goes back to something we talked about earlier, which is the idea of covert
hypnosis and how you influence people. That little girl did a proper number on
you, didn’t she? She manipulated the hell out of you.
Kevin: She sure did.
Igor: And she didn’t even say a word.
Kevin: It was the great learning experience of all time. It was beautiful because I really
did learn a lot that day. So there are two levels of communication here. There’s
the level of my story about what happened to her and what it matter to me, but
the fact is, is that when you listen to that story – because it’s told exactly how
it’s told. It’s told as if the movie camera was there watching the whole thing.
It’s not about Kevin Hogan. The story is about the little girl and what this little
girl is teaching Kevin Hogan. So she knows that Kevin was over there fuming
and that Kevin was foolish and so she’s sort of like communicating with yes-no
responses and changing my life in a matter of moments, a little 10-year-old girl.
So pretty amazing. When you’re communicating that, you need to establish

authority. You need to establish this is called the success book tour. That
needs to be in there, but the way that I tell the story, it’s self-deprecating
because I say this is the success book tour where nobody showed up, right?

The fact is it’s the success book tour; the book tour that launched a career. It
sold in excess of a million books worldwide. So it’s important that what you did
is you don’t ever want to try to make yourself like oh I’m so freakin’ amazing.
Here’s what I did with this group of people or this person, or I healed this
person. You always want to tell it from at least the third person, if not their point
of view.
If you put all of the words that you want to say like Kevin is wonderful. Instead
of saying Kevin is wonderful, what you do is you say you know, I was reading
an article by Igor the other day. I’m making this up. I’m assuming that you’re
going to do this, okay?
Igor: Whatever you say. I’m just happy writing down whatever you say and taking
notes.
Kevin: So I’m reading Igor’s blog the other day and it was very sweet. I do tons of
interviews, but I don’t do interviews for the hypnosis or NLP community
anymore, but Igor had asked me to do this. This guy is probably an exception to
the rule in brilliance and creativity in the field of hypnosis, NLP, covert hypnosis.
Most people aren’t that much, but he is and he said in his interview and check
this out. Igor says that Kevin Hogan was the best interview he had, not in terms
of elegance, not in terms of anything except for the heart and the desire that he
had for other people to do good for other people.
You know what, when I’m sitting there and I’m reading that, I’m like, you know
what? That really is what matters in life. It’s how you utilize what you’ve
learned. So for Igor, I would do an interview again about hypnosis, NLP, cover
hypnosis, anytime he asked.
You can see, of course, that I accomplished the goal of creating the authority
about what was important to me, which was how you perceived who I am as a
person, right? I put that into your blog and I had your blogs speak for you to the
audience. I could have said…
Igor: But you’ve distanced yourself from the message in such a way that it’s not your
opinion. You’re not blowing your own trumpet. You’re very subtly presenting
social proof without having any sort of approval to speak of. In other words,
other people think this about me and you’re saying it in a way that doesn’t
sound like, oh yeah, when I was having dinner with my good friend, the Dalai
Lama – and people go, all right. Here’s some name-dropping going on.
You’re actually do it very much in the reverse because there’s kind of a humility
going on, while at the same time you’re still creating that social proof factor.
The message is still there very clearly, but it doesn’t come across as thought
that’s why you did it.

Kevin: Right and every time you’re really proud of something that you want your
audience or you want the girl to know about you, or you want your friend to
know, whenever you have that moment – and this is not so easy. This is taught
in the course, but if I could just offer one thing it would be if you want to brag
about yourself, make up a funny story about it. If it’s a true story, then you’ll tell
the same story twice, but tell a story that’s deprecating.
In other words, I like to think that I’m this way, but you know what, here’s what
happened this one time. Whenever you can make fun of yourself or put yourself
down so the other person feels like they’re up, they’ll take the content of your
story. It will go into their unconscious mind literally and the will literally see you
as that successful person because you put the words into somebody else’s
mouth exactly as it happened that day.
In other words, if you’re across the table from the girl, say that this happened
six months ago and I’m having dinner with another girl tonight. I might say you
know what I was having dinner with, let me think, Heidi Klum. Okay, I was
talking with Heidi Klum in New York, we were having this great time talking and
I’ve got to tell you what.
I was so shy, clumsy with my words and I could barely get words coming out of
my mouth, because here I am with the most beautiful women in the world. The
Victoria’s Secret fashion model in New York, at her television show Project
Runway Season Six and I’m terrified.
I’m sitting there, okay sure, Kev, you’re a VIP and you’re sitting here terrified.
There’s Tim Gunn and Michael Kors and all of these other fashion designers
and experts down there and you’re on television in front of what’s going to be a
million people when they watch the show on Lifetime next year. My heart’s
pounding away and I don’t know what to say to Heidi Klum.
What am I going to say to her? I’ve got a copy of my books that have been
translated in German. I’m going to give them to her and I’ve actually written
words at the beginning of the book in German. It says, Heidi, I really appreciate
you. You’re gorgeous and I love your show. Thank you for letting me have fun
watching your work over the years – in German.
Now I’ll just stop there because there’s more of a story, but it doesn’t matter
because we just did the same thing, right?
Igor: Exactly. You’ve gone through the whole – you’re offering yourself in a higher
social status, if you like, but at the same time, you’re taking away the edge of
this. So rather than saying, oh I’m looking down on you because I’m doing this,
you’re putting enough of a human factor that we start caring about you again.

So, we can be adequately impressed by your achievement without being

threatened by it. This reminds me a little bit of something that an actor, Keith
Johnstone, who is one of the gods of improvisational theatre, talks about. I
wound up doing a workshop with him and he said one thing that you have to
learn as an improv actor.
When you’re up on stage and you make a mistake, you have to learn to be
okay with it. In other words, you have to learn to accept the mistake with a
gracious smile and the audience will love you for it.
When they see you up there and you make a mistake and you get embarrassed
of it, then they start feeling shame or guilt by default because they project it into
you. So you make them feel embarrassed and they don’t like to see that. So
they’ll hate you for making them feel bad about themselves.
If, on the other hand, you make some mistake and you take it with a smile on
your face and a shrug of your shoulder in a casual sort of way and show that
you’re not embarrassed – in other words, you don’t feel bad – it means they
don’t have to feel bad for you.
They don’t have to feel bad at all and they will love you for just not making them
feel bad, but also for showing them that they don’t have to feel bad at other
times as well. It’s kind of an unconscious little plan that runs in the background.
That’s really stuck with me this idea that you can make mistakes and they can
be charming.
Kevin: Absolutely. The audience…and I say audience, but it could be the one person
sitting across from you at dinner, but your audience will not only find you
charming, but they’ll laugh at the story and they’re not laughing at you. They’re
laughing at the story because if they were in the situation having this
conversation with Heidi, they would be scared to death too.
So there’s this instant rapport thing that goes on, that the person identifies and
they say you know what? Kevin is just like me, which makes him smart
because I’m smart. It makes him very sweet, because I’m sweet. It makes him
have a good heart because I have a good heart.
The stories resonate with their emotions that I really would like them to have at
the moment and one other thing real quick. Sometimes I simply have to
establish credibility with the group or with the person that I’m with and I don’t
want to establish it by saying, hi, I’m Kevin Hogan. I have a doctorate degree
and I’ve been doing presentations for 25 years and this is how much money I
earn. That’s doesn’t do you a lot of good.

So it’s better to put it all into the covert hypnosis story and if you tell a story with
covert, you accomplish the goals of trying to put your résumé out there. At the
same time, you’re able to get people to like you, identify with you, want to follow
you and want you to win the games of life and they will know that you’ll be there
for them.
It’s just an amazing power that you have with story that goes way beyond
Ericksonian storytelling. Nothing against it, but this just adds into it and makes it
so much more rich and valuable for the listener and for you, the person who’s
telling it – the value that you get back from your audience.
Igor: I agree. I think something you just mentioned there, which I think is, again,
something worth really emphasizing. It’s this idea that when you’re telling these
stories, it’s inclusive of your audience. Not just that they’re participating in the
story, but they’ve got to get a sense of somehow that you’re allowing them to
be with you in this world. It’s not saying, I’m in this world and I’m snubbing you
because I’m in a world that you can never be in.
You’re saying, I’m just like you. I’m in this world. You could be in this world too.
You should be in this world with me. You’re the kind of person that belongs
right here with me as well. Then they’ll love you for that. They will love the fact
that there’s at least an aspiration element there saying maybe one day I could
do that too.
So now I want to hang around you more because I want to figure out how you,
the person who’s just like me, got there, which is where I want to be and if you
can do it, then I must be able to do it. So I want to hang around you and find out
more about how you do it. So expect me at your front door tomorrow, okay?
Kevin: There you go. By the way, you’re welcome any time. Okay, so stories. Once
you master not only the ability to tell the story, but to put you into the story so
there is some résumé value coming back to you so you don’t have to say your
résumé ever at any point in the conversation in the training. The résumé comes
out through the stories that you tell. You never have to say how wonderful you
are ever.
Other people are going it through your stories, or that you care or that you’re
good and all of these kinds of things. Whatever it is you feel – because we all
have this need to say hey, look at me. This is what I did. I’m so cool and I’m so
good and I’m so proud of this one moment. So if you are, make sure that you
can self-deprecate and show how much you really wanted to do it. Say God,
this was so cool to meet this person. I was so lucky, that kind of a thing. Put
yourself down below where your listener would be. If you do that, you’ll win.

Igor: Actually, just to emphasize the point there’s another Master Hypnotist who will
be coming onto in one of the other Interviews who did this. He’s one of my ex-
students and he actually got himself – I can’t remember if it was a $500 or
$1,000 tip from some Mafioso people. He was working in a nightclub at the
time, using exactly this strategy.
He walked up and he was kind of like a cheeky, self-deprecating funny. So he

was cracking jokes and stuff like that, but all in a very self-deprecating way. Not
like, I’m as good as you are or better than you and all the rest of it. He was like,
oh here you go. Me silly, butterfingers – and I can’t remember what he was
doing. He’ll tell this story, I guess, when he comes on for the Interviews.
The long and short story of this is at the end of the night, these guys were
having such a good time. They enjoyed his company so much. You’ve got to
remember this is the Mafia. These are bad boys, really. He was totally
surprised by this. They ended up giving him kind of a stack of cash, a whack on
the hand saying, you’re a good man and then they walked out.
He’s looking at his hand with, I don’t know, $500 or $1,000 of cash and going,
what the hell just happened here?
Kevin: By the way…
Igor: So there’s a lot of power in lowering your status. It’s something I try to tell
people, but they don’t believe me. There’s a lot of power at the right time in
lowering your status.
Kevin: Well, you very rarely get anything by raising it. Most people try to raise their
status, but it’s just not necessary. You actually do the opposite and people,
then once again, become comfortable with you. For the same reason that I sit
very casually when I sit, always having the other person’s eyes higher than
mine so they’re actually looking down on me.
Every single person who looks at me when I’m sitting down looks down on me,
even if they’re 5’4”. I just slump into the chair a little bit. I’m just little Kevin
Hogan. If you look at photographs, I post photographs on my website. I never
post a photograph where I’m so tall and strong compared to somebody else. I’ll
usually post a photo where next to me is this person who I really, really like and
admire, but I’ll have them much higher up than I will myself, if possible.
That kind of an attitude will help you be more subtly powerful. Seriously, when
you give power away, you really do get it back.

Igor: Yeah, so it’s very clear that status and working with a different range of status
is very important.
This leads me to another idea, Kevin, which is why is it that you think that some
hypnotists might fail with their subjects? I think status and authority are
important elements for this, but there are many other little key pieces that I
know you draw out that are really ingenious.
Understanding them is part of the idea of covert hypnosis, but also if you don’t
do just regular hypnosis, it’s part of what makes you a better hypnotist because
your ability to influence will increase as you’re aware of an use these particular
strategies or principles.
Kevin: People fail as hypnotists, as therapists and as NLP practitioners when they’re
trying to make changes. A few things can cause that. The first and probably the
most important, after authority – and I’ll talk about that in a second – is the
therapeutic alliance. The therapeutic alliance means how much, do I trust this
person that I’m with to tell my darkest secrets to.
So if you’re a therapist, if you’re a hypnotist and your goal is to do therapy with

somebody, if you fail to develop the relationship, to let the person know subtly
and directly that you’re trustable, that you’re credible and to develop this
rapport – because that’s really what heals people is the therapeutic alliance.
Real quick, guys, when you test all the research, when you take cognitive
behavioral therapy and you put it up against hypnotherapy and you put it up
against all the other kinds of therapies, what happens is that psychoanalytic
therapy, which is now id, ego, super ego.
It’s so out of vogue and it’s so not a good model, but you know what? When
you compare all the therapies, it comes out that none of the therapy models
test is superior to the others, but what does test out as superior are two things?
It’s the practitioner and the therapeutic alliance those variables. When you pull
them out everything else is the same. It’s scary because it’s like I want my
system to be the best system, but it’s probably not.
Igor: I think you just put your finger on a really important button here in terms of our
work, the people listening to this will recognize the therapeutic alliance in terms
of the hypnotic contract. It’s something that I think Carl Rogers really talked
about when he says, you have to view your clients with an unconditional high
regard.

That’s just the opening of the door. If you can’t do that – and I think NLP likes to
talk about this in terms of respecting other people’s model of the world, but I
think a lot of people get the wrong idea of this because they just go, yeah, he’s
got a good idea. What they don’t understand is that it’s a whole emotional
context you’re building up.
When people talk about rapport, I like to think of it as just simply two emotions:
comfort and trust. You can target something very specific that way. Rapport
becomes a kind of nebulous thing.
What you’re talking about here is exactly the heart of that. You can build
comfort. You can build trust. You can build that relationship. At that point,
almost anything you do will have a positive impact on the other person.
Kevin: That’s right and building comfort – well, there are two feelings actually here.
Now you went here and so I’m going to tag on. If you build comfort, you’re
going to end up building familiarity. You guys have probably never heard this
concept, but if you build familiarity, you actually are likely to get that person to
do anything you want forever.
As soon as a person becomes familiar with you, you now become part of their
status quo and if you become part of their status quo, they will do almost
anything you ask them to do. So comfort, that is a really good definition of
rapport, by the way.
If you can build comfort, you do get familiarity eventually and if you get
familiarity – and eventually it could be two minutes, 20 minutes, 200 minutes,
two days, but that’s the deal. You want people to become familiar to where
you’re familiar. They’re used to being with you so where else would they go?
This is why we stay at the same jobs, the same relationships, the same friends.
This is why we marry somebody from down the street, because we knew her
when she was 16 or 14 or 12 or 10, as opposed to meeting somebody from
more than one mile away. We’re just familiar with people and when we’re
familiar with them, we’ll go pretty everything with them and for them.
Trust. Here’s an interesting thing on trust, guys. If you can show that you’re
dependable, if you have a date a 7:00 pm and you show up at 7:05, the girl’s
the one that’s supposed to show up at 7:05, not you. So if you’re there at 7:00,
you win because you’re dependable and women are looking for dependability
more than just about anything in the world. Was he there at 7:00? No. Did he
respect me? Stuff like that really matters.

Take it to the sales process if you’re trying to make a living as a salesperson. If

you have an appointment with me at 7:00 and you show up at 7:05, you get a
no for the sale. It’s not going to sell. There are other things that make trust,
credibility, authority and all that kind of stuff, but what people neglect is
dependability. So do that one thing because you’d be amazed, especially on
the Internet too, If you do Internet sales. Same thing. Okay, I’ll let you carry on.
Igor: I think the point you’re making is very important and I always talk about this in
terms of predictability, but it’s really the same idea as dependability. You know
this for a fact because just think about in your own lives – and I know I’ve done
this when you’re offered a chance to buy something. One of the places you can
buy it at, the cost is (X) amount.
Say its $100. At another place, the price is not yet known. You can put a
deposit down and you can book whatever it is you’re going to buy. Say it’s a
laptop or a book or whatever it is, but you don’t know ahead of time what the
price will be. It might be less than $100, but it might be more.
Now I know for a fact, I’ve done this, where I’ve gone and said you know what,
I’m going to pay the $100 because at least I know what I’m paying. I’ll know that
I’m not going to get myself in trouble later on by paying too much. I’d rather pay
more than take risk that I’m not going to be paying less later on, even if I know
intellectually that it might have been $90. It’s very likely it would have been $90,
but I’ll still pay the $100 to have it now and have it settled so I don’t have to
worry about it.
Therefore, this idea of predictability is huge. It’s a very, very important factor
and I’m glad that you brought that out for us.
Kevin: That was fabulous, by the way. Boy, authority. People fail in hypnosis, their
work fails it’s not that they fail, but their work fails. Oh yeah, you do. You fail. All
failure is not feedback. Sometimes you just stick at what you do that day.
You’re like, ah. Take a little bit of responsibility. You screwed up.
Igor: I’ve done that. I’ve had plenty of days where I was so pathetic that I just came
home and thought why the hell am I doing this? How can I justify my existence
as a hypnotherapist? It’s part of what gives us a kick in the ass to actually be
better at what we do and actually be more focused, rather than just taking it all
a bit too casually.
Kevin: Again, as an aside, failure is actually okay. People who experience failure, the
more failure, if you can get out of the failure’s feedback model because it is kind
of right and that also is relatively true, but also there are exceptions. The point,
of course, is to allow it to be okay to fail and just go, you know what? That idea
sucked.

That website was terrible. I was terrible that night with the girl, or I just made a
bad sales call or however you’re applying your work and just let it be okay that
you failed. As soon as you can say you know what? I screwed up. Oh well, it
won’t like that next time and just let that be okay. If you let it be okay, then all of
the sudden, you take all the pressure off of you.
Igor: Exactly. For me, this is a big idea that I’m a human being. I mess up. The last
thing in the world I want to do is become a guru for someone because that
means that I’m not allowed to mess up anymore. I guarantee you one thing.
The one thing I can absolutely promise you and everyone listening to this right
now is I’m going to mess up big sometime and I’m going to do it again.
I’ve done it in the past and I know for a fact it’s waiting for me in the future. I’d
rather hedge my bets right now and let you guys in on the secret. I’m a human
being, I mess up and it happens more than once. It’s likely to happen in your
lifetime too.
Kevin: We all have gurus and there are gurus that I love. There are my mentors and
the people who literally tell me what to do and I just do it because I’m smart
enough to realize they’re smarter than I am. When you look at your gurus,
whoever your gurus are, I promise you – because I’ve been really lucky in my
life, very, very fortunate to be able to hang out with some of the most amazing
people that I could ever want to meet in the world.
It’s like all these people who other people idolize – and I idolize them too and
I’m not going to mention any names because I don’t want to drop them – but
the idea is, is that I’ve watched people who are really, really well known, like
worldwide and they’re just as dumb as me.
Igor: Right.
Kevin: I love it.
Igor: We’re all people, right. We have moments of sheer genius and we all have
moments of abject pitifulness where the poorest, meanest beggar on the
streets would look down on us and say poor boy. There for the grace of God go
I. We all have those days.
Kevin: The takeaway is that it’s like God I want to be just like Igor. Yes, you kind of do
because he’s really mastered this field brilliantly and at the same time he
screws up a lot. So you don’t have to worry when you screw up because he
does too. Even if John doesn’t tell you that he screws up, I swear to God, he
screws up as often – in fact, the most successful people – I had dinner – you
know what? I’ll skip the story.

The most successful people I know are the people who tell me five ideas that
they have and then a year later they’ve implemented five; two of them work, the
other three, cost them a ton of money, but the other two made them a ton of
many. So they bat less than 500, but because they were willing to try five
things, three failed and two succeeded and they’re now a million dollars
wealthier than they were the year before.
Igor: Now I remember this. This is actually a very important point. I remember when I
was still doing my corporate coaching and executive coaching. Procter &
Gamble was one of my coaching clients. I was working with very senior
management level. I’m not going to say which country, but I remember one of
the directors I was coaching when he was going for his annual review so his
annual review was being done abroad, because he’s so senior there aren’t
many people who could review him.
There’s really only one question that the guy asked him during his annual
review, which was basically, how often have you been willing to be wrong this
year? That was it. That was his review.
If you couldn’t answer that question properly, then you got slapped on the wrist
and told you better sort that out. So if he was playing it too safe, then he was in
the wrong position. If he was willing to take the right kinds of risk and it’s not
just a question of going out there and doing stupid things, but taking the right
kinds of risks and right kind of failures, which could have had some clout but
maybe didn’t work out.
That’s a sign of someone who’s evolving and growing and that’s really what you
need to have as an attitude if you’re going to make it to the path of mastery.
You can never become a master just by copying what other people do or by
doing what other people tell you to do. You follow that path absolutely. There
are elements of that, that are true, but you always have to fall off the path or
you’ll never know what the path really is.
Kevin: Beautiful.
Igor: So, we’ve got this idea then of authority. We’ve got the idea of therapeutic
alliance. Those are two very, very important things. We’ve got the idea of being
willing to fail, being willing to suck it up, be a human being, mess up, smile and
grin and say all right, that was wrong. Let’s start again.
♦ Are there any other things that are common errors that hypnotists
might make, which if corrected could help them down that path of
mastery much more?

Kevin: I think that we tend to become very focused in just one area, which makes us
an expert, say at Ericksonian hypnosis. So now I’m an expert. Okay great, but
where I lose my power is when I just do Ericksonian hypnosis and completely
poo-poo all the other kinds of change tools, like cognitive behavioral therapy.
So the whole goal is that once you become masterful at Ericksonian hypnosis,
as an example, you want to then begin studying the work of – you named Carl
Rogers. That’s a great choice. Carl Rogers, I mean unconditional positive
regard the way I look at it is non-judgment. It’s don’t judge the client and if you
do stuff like that.
We tend to judge people as oh God, what a stupid thing. I do this all the time.
It’s like that’s just stupid. You’re dumb. But you know what? If you don’t really
judge them, make sure it’s like okay, that behavior. That’ll make you better at
what you do.
Then if you want to be educated, gee whiz, go to seminars. I mean just go to

seminars. I spent a week in Orlando. I was their main speaker at this Internet
conference this week. They wanted to know how to plug covert hypnosis and
influence techniques and stuff like that into the web. These are all people who
are super mega experts.
By the way, here’s a quick aside, guys. You should know that if I were to name
the top 10 Internet marketers out there – I’m not going to, but I promise you I
saw them at hypnosis conventions in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001. I saw people in
the audience who are now making $5, $10 million a year and they were
applauding me because I won an award and yet today they’re doing $5, $10
million a year take home, after their expenses, after their affiliates and all that.
You would be amazed, I think, how many people in hypnosis who will educate
beyond just a tool, a skill set like Ericksonian hypnosis and these people are
becoming Internet marketers. The field of hypnosis has produced more Internet
marketers than any field out there.
It’s a bizarre thing, but when you start to think about it. These people are
fascinated by the mind, but their thirst is insatiable. It’s like, okay, I got
Ericksonian. I read Sags books. I read all of them I mean I read everything
Rosens and all the books. They’re done. So now what?
So now go wide and when you go wide, you develop greater interests. These
people then become amazing gurus because they have a knowledge base
that’s so wide and then people are willing to pay them thousands of dollars for
an event. You bring 100 people at $2,000 to an event and all of the sudden
you’re doing okay.

So my encouragement is not to become an Internet marketer, which you could

be, but to go wide because if you go wide, you’re going to be secure for the rest
of your life.
Igor: I have to say I really am glad you’re saying this because I so agree with this.
One of the biggest problems with modern academia – there are several, but
one of them is that they’re such specialists that they become insects. They’re
just so highly specialized in their field that they could well with this idea of
interdisciplinary corporation.
Psychologists, if actually allowed to do some basic logic or philosophy of logic

type exercises, will be much better psychologists because a lot of these crazy
ideas that they put out there with some pseudo-science kind of wrap and go,
yeah, well, this is how it works.
They suddenly realize and be embarrassed that they couldn’t present those
findings because they could see the flaws in their arguments without being
carried away by them. I myself do exactly the same thing you’re talking about.
I’m going to hypnosis people now, I go outside of hypnosis, I’ve been in theatre,
I was in the jungles of Peru with Shaman and I’m going to be going back again
later this year to do the same thing again. I’ve been with Yogis.
I’ve been with dancers. I have done bizarre stuff and a lot of stuff I’d be
embarrassed to mention just because it was really crazy! It’s true. Some stuff I
thought going it I would hate, but somehow, weirdly, I turned around and went,
what the hell just happened there? That was good. I had no idea why and I just
sat there rooting over it weeks later until I could tease out some concepts.
This idea that you go wide, you go to different fields, you look at copywriting,
you look at medicine, you look at neuroscience, you look at theatre, you look at
authors and writing books and storytelling, you look at pedagogy, you look at
dog training. Every single field tells you something about human beings and
how they operate.
If you’re intention is to be an influencer or persuader, be that therapeutically,

salesmanship or just in life in general, then you owe it to yourself to go to all
these different disciplines and figure out how they’re doing what they’re doing.
Like yourself, I joined a cult. Many of the things they were doing were really
kind of pathetic. They won’t be very useful in terms of human evolution.
However, a lot of the stuff they weren’t teaching you – the stuff they were doing
but not teaching you was ingenious and I learned so much from it in terms of a
hypnotist, one reason why I suggest to people to find a home discipline. If you
like direct suggestion, hey, knock yourself out. Become a direct hypnotist and
there’s a lot of value in that.

If you like indirect suggestion or Ericksonian hypnosis, go with that. If you like
the covert approach, go with covert approach find a home discipline, a cause to
you that sings to you.
But once you’ve mastered the fundamentals in that discipline, go out and find
other things and bring them back into what you’re doing. Then go out again,
look at other things and bring them back into what you’re doing. It will enrich
what you do to such an extent, it’s unreal. That’s really why we’re going these
Interviews.
I’m looking for true masters of their craft because you, for example, Kevin.
You’re doing things that I wouldn’t even dream of doing and I like it. I’m sitting
here like a little boy at Christmas going, oh boy, I can’t wait to start doing some
of these things now because that’s where we grow.
Kevin: Well, you said it all. I’m not going to add anything there. The differences
between success and failure are usually recognizing that you’re very limited,
only half as smart as you think and then going and learning all the other stuff.
There’s a cool model that we have in the house here with my son. My son is
quite bright and my daughter is quite bright as well. I got lucky. But we have a
model, which is that instead of saying, you know what, dad? I got an A. I’m
smart – which, by the way, is okay. He can say that, but he also has to be able
to say and then I’m going to really work harder and try to learn other stuff too.
We don’t want to ever think I already know it all.
So there’s always the questioning. How could I be wrong? If you look for how
you could be wrong, 10% of the time you find it and then you’re right now more
often and you’re in even more control and more power. Yeah, you’re good.
Igor: I’m excited you’re saying this because this is, for me, one of the real keys. It’s
really serving good to that and you’ve probably done the same thing. I have
spent well over $100,000 in seminar fees to go and see the best and see what
they do.
Now I’m not doing what they’re doing. I’ll maybe pull a few nuggets out and
have poured it into my style and draw some other things out, etc., but I have
gone and seen the very best and I’ve paid for it and sometimes through the
nose. I have paid a lot of money sometimes, but that’s part of the commitment
you make to yourself, depending on how far down the road you want to go.
Books are important, videos are important, audios are important, live seminars
are important and different people are important. It’s not like I’m saying to
people, only come and see me and only do my thing. I’d love for you to do it
because it makes my business better, but really if you want to be good at this,

I’m going to let the cat out of the bag and Cliff’s going to hate me. He’s my
partner. You have to see other people too.
Kevin: Oh God, yeah. When we do influence boot camp – and I hope people will look
at this because it’s really an extraordinary experience. It’s very unique among
seminars. Not that its better – well, maybe it is actually. I think if there’s
anything I’m proud of beyond my kids it’s the events that I do.
One of the things that makes the events great is they’re not just Kevin Hogan. I
work half the time and the other half of the time I bring in people who are just at
the top of their field, whether they’re academics, like Dr. Eric Knowles. I’ll bring
him or somebody who’s a great back-of-the-room salesman, like Dave Lakhani,
who is also somewhat known in the hypnosis field as well. Or, perhaps a great
speaker, somebody who’s a professional speaker like Al Duncan, down in
Atlanta where you are today.
I’ll bring in people who are the best because these are all people who are
influencing with different skill sets and different tools. Some people might be in
hypnosis. I might have a stage hypnotist. Whoever they are, they’re the best in
their specific field and people want to come. It’s funny, Igor, I had more
requests to be speakers at influence boot camp – almost 110 or 120, right in
there – than I did participants. I had to say no to people who I love and they’re
my friends.
It’s like an all-star list of everything from Internet marketers to hypnotists to NLP
practitioners to psychologists. When people want to work with you that much,
you know you did something right along the way. It’s not that I’m better than
John Overdurff, Igor or anybody. I just provide a different way of looking at life
and stuff and the covert hypnosis model is really cool. What you learn from Igor
– and by the way, as I think I might have mentioned previously, you made a
good choice.
There are a lot of choices you could have made that wouldn’t have been so
amazing. This is a great choice, but there are also people that I’ll bring in once
in a while that I don’t like that much as people, for example, just because I think
they have a lot to offer and just because I don’t like somebody doesn’t mean
they’re not good people. It means that we rub each other the wrong way.
I brought in one gentleman, who I won’t name because we don’t get along that
well, but he’s brilliant and he did have a lot to offer. Everybody was like, wow, I
learned a lot. Do you want him back? No!
The point is that the audience learned to do so many things from this person
who really is a very highly skilled individual. So if you open yourself up to other
fields tangential to where you’re at, you will become amazing.

Igor: I totally agree with that and something else that you’re mentioning there, which
again is very close to my own heart, it’s how the Private Hypnosis Club started,
is I’m into this idea of building communities of excellence. I mean real
communities where people share ideas and grow. They have a base and
guiding themes.
Back in the Renaissance period, you had some of these small Italian cities that
became massively wealthy and suddenly all these artists cropped out of
nowhere. Is it that Italians are genetically designed to be better artists? No. It’s
just they happen to have a lot of people with a lot of money paying for art. Now
you can afford to have artists around and if they’re all within shouting distance
of each other, you can’t help but grow and learn from each other.
It sounds like your event is doing the same thing. For example, I can imagine
that one of the big attractions of being a speaker at your event is once you’ve
done your bit speaking, you get to hang out with all these other cool speakers
doing stuff and I know what I’d be doing. I’d be pulling them to the bar and
saying, so tell me, I’ve always wanted to know this. I’d pick their brains for all
it’s worth.
Kevin: It’s so true. The speakers that come to boot camp have this universally
amazing time because not only are they guru-ized by the people who I work
with and I coach and teach, but also they do get their brain picked all night long.
It’s cool because they’re getting it picked not by just fans, but by people who
really know the right questions to ask because they didn’t stick with just direct
suggestion or just Ericksonians.
They actually have this wide latitude of knowledge and they’re digging into
people and the speakers will come up to me – not all of them, but sometimes
they’ll come up and say God, you know that guy asked some good questions.
I’m going to do some of the stuff he’s talking about.
Igor: Well, the crazy thing is its true, the two things that come in that. One is the
wider you go, the more interesting your questions become because suddenly
your mind somehow gets primed. The only reason I can do the things I do now
is because I wasn’t satisfied with the traditional approaches to hypnosis, so I
had to outside of hypnosis to find some answers, but I didn’t actually find
answers.
What I actually found, which was more valuable, was bigger questions. The
answers I got, which people get excited about and I get excited about as well,
of course, are actually nothing compared to the questions I end up getting.
Those were the valuable parts.

The second thing, of course, is that by going wide, you gain these rich
experiences. You start thinking about things differently. People ask me
questions. I teach stuff so people ask me questions. Most often some of the
most innovative things I’ve done are in response to someone asking me what
about this or what about that?
I sit there and go, huh. I’ve never thought of that. Or I’ll come up with an answer
at the moment, but then I just kick and go, oh wait a second. Where in the hell
did that come from? I have no idea where that answer came from, but race
back upstairs, get my notebook out, write things down, all the implications and
start whipping through a whole model based on that because it’s like suddenly
inspiration struck and I needed that question to make it happen. So you’re
preaching to a converter, as far as I’m concerned.
Kevin: You mentioned that $100,000 figure for your investment into your future clients.
When you spend money on education to teach yourself – and this could be
University, it could be seminars, it could books. When you spend money to
invest in yourself, not only do you get a text deduction, by the way – because
not only are your expenses deductible.
So Obama’s paying for half of this for you – but you are investing in your
clients’ future, whether they’re going to be coaching clients or therapy clients, or
you’re investing in the most amazing woman that you’ll have sitting next to you
for the rest of your life because you invested that $100,000.
A lot of people think well, I’ll just read the book. Okay that’s a good start and
that’s great but if you buy a $20 book expect to end up with a $20 girl. If you
invest $100,000 into yourself and to the future people you are going to hang out
with, realize that, that $100,000 instead of it having a $20 girl across from you,
you’re going to have $100,000 girl across from you. There’s an enormous
difference.
I do know a lot of successful people and I can tell you they all have huge, stupid
huge libraries like you wouldn’t believe and they go to events and they network
with other people who they consider, to be smarter than themselves, even
though the rest of the group thinks that they’re really smarter than they are.
Igor: I love people who are smarter than me. I sit there and I bask in their glory. I’ll
suck as much as I can out of their brains and I have learned so much by
hanging out with people like this. Sometimes I have to pay for the pleasure.
Sometimes I just fell into the pleasure. It really doesn’t matter to me. I’m totally
with you. Read, listen, watch, go out there and learn.
The one thing that I would encourage you not to do is sit in front of the TV and
watch a sitcom because that doesn’t add value. Sometimes, of course, go
ahead and watch a show and relax and chill out and whatever, but really your

life just goes into a totally different drive when you’re learning something that
you are fascinated by, interested in and put your time into it.
I still do this now, on airplanes, in hotel lobbies and on buses when I’m waiting
for stuff. I’m sitting there and I can’t wait for the next moment where I get a
layover. I whip my book out and go through it. Okay, now I’m at this point here
and go through that. Part of the learning process, by the way, really is in
unusual places. So I will read things that have seemingly nothing to do with
what I’m doing.
For example, I like to tell people the best film about hypnosis that I’ve ever seen
– I don’t know if you’ve seen this film yourself, Kevin – but the best film I’ve
ever seen that deals with the subject of hypnosis doesn’t even mention
hypnosis called ‘The Legend of Bagger Vance’ with Will Smith. It has one of the
most elegant expositions of what hypnotherapy looks like to me in that whole
interaction between the golfer and his bagger. I couldn’t be as eloquent
describing hypnotherapy to someone else. It’s a wonderful film.
I learned so much from that film about how to do hypnotherapy and people
were surprised, but it’s just Hollywood film.
Kevin: Absolutely. I haven’t seen that. Will Smith has this amazing habit of ending up
in amazing movies and, guys, that really matters a lot, by the way, because
what it says about you is that – because if you think about what Will Smith did,
he worked so hard over and over and over on his craft and went wide.
If you remember, he started out in comedy and now he does the most powerful,
amazing dramatic roles in addition to comedies, like Hancock, which was a
superb movie, by the way.
We’ll actually make some metaphors and stories about Will Smith, but I’m
ready to tell them. I’ve never thought of them before, but now that I think about
it, this is a great model for people to model. If people will do what he has done
in this field, you too will literally be great.
Igor: This takes me to one of our final questions then for this part of the session.
♦ What, in your opinion, makes a great hypnotist?
I think we’ve talked about the idea of education and I think that’s a really
important and crucial function within that but there are other, shall we say,
attitudes or experiences or states of mind that go into making a great hypnotist.
Kevin: Okay, great. The word great to me is ethically effective. So I could be effective
and be a bad guy and that would not make me great. That would make me
effective. To be great would be ethically effective.

I’m not going to teach you how to have ethics, but I will simply encourage you
to think if this was your little brother who you happen to love, somebody you
care about a lot, or your little sister or maybe your mom, would you sell this
product to your mom? Would you sell this service, this seminar, this book, this
event, would you sell your lifestyle to your mom?
If I can go one more step on ethics and then I’ll leave it alone. If your mom was
looking over our shoulder – my mom doesn’t. She’s not here anymore. So
when I go through my life, there are a lot of days if I’m thinking about
something, I’m like, wait a second. I don’t know if this is right. Should I do this
or not? I literally think, what would my mom say and how intensely would she
say it. Like Kevin, I’m so proud of you. Or what the hell are you doing?
Igor: I like that. This is a very simple test and I think it would be very effective
because it’s very clear. There are always going to be areas of doubt. You’re
never quite sure about some things, but for the most part, it keeps you on the
straight and narrow. I have people like that friends, family.
I actually have a couple of friends that I just like hanging around because
they’re my – I wouldn’t call them spiritual. They’re not really spiritualists as
people in that direction too much, but they’re my ethical friends. They’ve got
their heads so tightly screwed on and they just have amazing generosity.
They’re in it for the people sort of thing and I sit back and go, wow I want to be
just like you. I literally think sometimes when I build an offer up or when I do
something, I think, how would he do it? Well, I’ll go and do that now.
Kevin: The next one would be the ability to make people laugh and you can’t become
a comedian because if you try to tell jokes, you will never make people laugh.
People can’t tell jokes, believe me, but if you can make people laugh because
of the stories that you tell, you make people comfortable.
As soon as you can make somebody laugh, you take the nervous energy out of
the air and when you make people laugh, they like you. As soon as people like
you, they trust you. If I were to say – I’ll name a few names to you that you
wouldn’t normally associate with trust and yet you would.
If I said, would you trust Robin Williams, the comedian? You would go God,
yeah I trust him. He’s the kind of guy I like. Would you trust Kelsey Grammar
from Cheers or from Frazier? Yeah. You know what? I would trust him.
It turns out when people make us laugh, we trust those people because they’ve
gotten inside of us and they’ve hit the buttons that are most important in
creating trust. Does that make sense?

Igor: Sure. Of course, it actually feels safe to be able to laugh. Laughter is a great
depotentialiizer of fear and anxiety. So by the fact that you’re laughing, you’re
already treating all these things, the associations around safety and so on
because its not so daunting now.
Kevin: Correct and our goal is not to intentionally tell a story that’s a funny story to
another person that’s across the table from us, but to allow ourselves to be
more self-deprecating in our humor. When you pick on yourself, people will
laugh and they will feel good around you. So that’s a good thing and that’s what
makes a great hypnotist.
If you look at some of the good – I keep thinking about Derren Brown. This is
probably because you’ve got this wonderful accent that’s just triggering back
over there, but he’s very, very good at what he does. He’s a great stage
showman.
Igor: For sure. I admire him.
Kevin: There are times when I’m watching a video or something with him in it and I will
just laugh. The great thing about Derren is he’ll tell you how he does
something, except he’ll never tell you the truth.
Igor: Exactly. You can always bet that the one thing he’s saying he’s doing is the one
thing that he’s not doing.
Kevin: I’ll just go on from there. He’s so good and that’s one of the reasons he’s great
is because he makes you laugh and he’ll make you laugh at different levels.
Like if you really know how psychic entertainment works, then you’ll know that
he actually didn’t make you realize stuff. Well, anyway, it makes you laugh.
Then certainty, when you sense that somebody is certain about something,
without arrogance. Let me just draw the Bell Curve for you. You the curve that
goes up and then back down? Okay, on the left side we have unconfident,
uncertain. That’s at the bottom on the lower left. At the top, you have confident
and certain but always the ability to wonder and to be curious because you
could be wrong.
Igor: So kind of like open-minded.
Kevin: A friend of mine, Meredith Kaplan, a psychologist up in Seattle, taught me to

say these words. I could be wrong I’m making this number up. Because, a lot of
times people will quote statistics, information, studies, research or anything as if
they remember it. So, when I’m even 2% uncertain that I have something, I’ll
say you know what, Igor, I’m just making this up out of thin air, but actually it’s
probably pretty close to accurate.

Do that and people will know and they become instantly aware that you are not
claiming to have God-like knowledge, that you’re certain about the information
but you’re just not positive about the surroundings that it took place in perhaps.
So I encourage people to adopt that mindset, if not those exact words because
if you start saying those words, all of the sudden you become a more credible
person.
I’m not positive. I’m kind of making these numbers up out of thin air, but… and
then tell the story. People will accept that as credible, accurate information.
Please make it credible, accurate. Now, at the top of the Bell Curve, that’s
where confidence with that ability to question yourself is.
On the bottom of the Bell Curve back on the right-hand side is overconfidence,
over-authority where you’re claiming too much power and that makes a lousy
hypnotist just as much as being under-confident.
The person who is confident, they walk in the room, they’re certain they have
charisma; that feel that you get around that is really super important. You want
to be certain with the ability to question and people need to know that Kevin
Hogan is like a source because it’s like okay, he says this today and I believe
him because he’s got the most up-to-date, but you know what? He’ll test and
find out if he’s wrong later on. They know that. So they just know that’s part of
the brand.
By the way, everybody write down, think of yourself as a brand. An odd idea,
but imagine if you were McDonalds or Starbucks, if you were your own brand,
what characteristics and attributes would you want? That’s what makes you a
great hypnotist.
As Igor said, if people know that the soap in the bathroom at McDonald’s is
going to smell the same at every single McDonald’s in the world. If they know
that the French fries are going to taste the same at every single McDonald’s
restaurant in the world, then when you, an American, go to Italy or go to
Amsterdam or wherever it is you go, you actually will find yourself eating at an
American fast food restaurant once or twice. Why? It’s because it’s familiar,
only because it’s familiar because the food is great? No. It’s because it’s
familiar. You’re comfortable in the environment.
I remember going to Italy, Bologna. I’m looking at the menu at McDonald’s and
I’m thinking what the hell am I doing at McDonald’s? I’m in Italy for God’s sake.
Igor: Right, but sometimes you need that. You need that reminder of home or maybe
you’ve been to some foreign place – and I know I’ve done it when I’m traveling
through Asia. They have amazing food there, seafood and everything is cheap.
But, every now and again, I’m thinking I’m tired of all this other stuff.

I’d like something that reminds me of home a little bit and their facsimile, shall
we say, of Western food really sucks bad.
At that point, really you’re left with things like Burger King and McDonald’s,
because I remember those things from my own childhood. If I want to have
something that makes me feel more home-like just because I have a craving for
it of some sort, that’s the only thing you have an option to go to.
Kevin: That’s it and we are always magnetized to that which is familiar. So a lot of
times, you may not even know consciously why you’re walking toward that. I
hadn’t been to a Kentucky Fried Chicken in America in probably a decade. I go
to England with my friend Ron Stubbs who does stage hypnosis and some
therapeutic work back in Seattle and he and I end up at Kentucky Fried
Chicken as our second meal of the trip.
I mean it had been forever since I’d been to one and yet we ended up there just
because it was familiar. It wasn’t a conscious decision. We were just walking
and said, should we go in there? Yeah, let’s just go in there and then all of the
sudden, there we were.
That’s what makes the power of covert hypnosis so useful. It’s because it
causes familiarity where there is none. It causes action to create an attitude of
belief, which then is going to become familiar to that person and so they’ll start
acting as if they’ve been familiar with this way of life forever. We’ll talk about
that in the next session.
Believability– people need to believe you. So if you say I’m making this up, I
could be totally wrong and you tell somebody that, people are going to believe
that 100%, whereas if you say I’m positive. This is what happened and here’s
how the spiritual nature works. You know what? People will always put a
question mark after insane statements. Some people will believe, but not
everybody and you really do want everybody to have this aura of that person is
totally believable, totally credible and I just know that person’s telling me the
truth.
As soon as you know that, you imbue that person with power to influence you.
You, the listener, want to be believable. So make everything you say believable
and if that means that you couch statements with, you know I’m just making this
number up but let’s just say all of the sudden people will believe every single
sentence you say because it’s like using the word imagine. Imagine is probably
my favorite word in the whole world.
Just imagine I was trying to get you to do something some quirky behavior, like
go riding three-wheelers or these all-terrain vehicles, which is probably a crazy
thing to do. I’ve never done it in my life, but imagine that I was going to ask you
to go and do it. I’m not saying we should go ride these crazy vehicles and do

something goofy, but just imagine that I did. How would you feel? Would you
actually be interested in going? I’m not saying we’re going, but just imagine that
you would.
By just saying imagine, you actually go way past this whole resistant thing. It’s
like the resistance guy actually opens the door to the mind for you and says,
you know, I’m Mr. Resistance, but I’m letting you walk in the door because you
didn’t actually tell me to do this. All you’re saying is imagine.
Igor: It’s the pretend game and it’s like a thought experiment we’re doing here. I’m
game for a thought experiment because it’s not real.
Kevin: Exactly and so Mr. Resistance opens the door for you, not blocking the way
and actually encouraging to walk in and test things out in the other person’s
landscape, on the landscape of their mind.
Of course, you came up with a beautiful definition of rapport earlier, which I

think is superior to probably any definition I’ve ever thought of in my life. I think
and I believe – I don’t want to misquote you, but I think you said, comfort and
trust.
Igor: That’s it.
Kevin: If you can cause comfort, which will eventually. Then cause familiarity and if
you can have trust, which is really about dependability the way I communicated
it and predictability the way that you did – and really they’re roughly the same
thing – if you can have that synthesis.
That emergence between trust and comfort, and then the tangent of familiarity
and dependability/predictability, put all that into one, then all of the sudden you
are going to be great. You will be great. That’s it.
Igor: I’ve talked to a lot of hypnotists and a lot of Masters and I’ve got to say you’ve
got a really nice grab bag of attitudes for people to aim towards. Each one of
these can be systematically built up inside ourselves. As we develop ourselves
as human beings, our ability to be more trustworthy, to be more comfortable in
our own skin, people are more comfortable around us.
The ability to present ourselves with more believability, partly because we have
done the research so we actually know what we’re talking about and partly
because we’re willing to actually know where the edges are and be honest
about those edges, rather than just pretending that beyond there will be
dragons.

That ability, credibility and even that sense of certainty you get from really
knowing your stuff and having done it so that you’ve seen the results, you’re
aware of it, the attitude of constantly educating yourself, all these things, I think
makes – I can’t say anything about that list you have except that I think it’s a
very clear list. It’s a very good list.
Ironically, whilst you’re sitting there going through your little checklist, I’m sitting
there counting on my fingers going, oh yeah, I went through a phase that really
focused on this. Yeah, that was a big one for me. Oh, I remember the day I
really got that one.
It’s important. These are really important things and they sound like big, high
level nominalizations, but what I would encourage you to do is think about that
list and think about people that embody certain elements of that list, one
attitude or another and how they influence you.
Now put all those together into one package and that might be you. That’s
where the real influence happens. That’s where the real power comes in.
Kevin: Now if you would have said pretty good, I would have had a different list, but
you said great.
Igor: Now I have to thank you because you’ve spent extra time with us today to really
go into these details. In the next session, I know we’ve got some actual
practical nitty-gritty thing that you’re going to be sharing with us.
Before we get into the next session, can you give us a highlight? I know on the
CDs, which are on KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis, you have a course that
lays out the fundamentals of the covert hypnosis method. Of those, there are
three maneuvers, if I understand you correctly, the storytelling, the human
desires, drives and subliminal cues.
In the next session, you’re going to be focusing on each one of those and
giving us some actual practical tools that we can take home to use ourselves.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Igor: We’ve talked quite a bit on storytelling today already, but the other two – the
human desires and subliminal cues, we’ve only really mentioned those in
passing.
♦ Could you tell us a little about those in closing so we’re ready for
that when we get onto that in the next session?
Kevin: We’ll see if we can do it in five minutes does that sound okay.

Igor: Sounds okay to me.
Kevin: You’re born and when you’re born, you have a DNA script inside of your brain
that says survive. I will survive. I will survive. I will pass on my genes. I will
survive.
As you grow older, you have certain drives that cause you to survive because
the DNA has been written in there over two million odd years and it just keeps
getting written. The way you survive is by performing these behaviors over and
over.
What’s interesting is that the behaviors don’t all work anymore because we’re
now a modern society – and I’ll talk about that next week as to how people do
amazingly stupid things because of their drives, or what seems to be stupid but
it’s just normal human behavior.
What are the things that are written inside of your genes? What’s written?
These are all the things that cause people to say yes and buy. It’s what’s
written in your DNA, in your genes, inside of you. The first one is the desire for
tranquility. All that means is think about when you’re afraid. When you’re afraid,
when you have anxiety or a panic attack or you’re scared or nervous, you’ll do
anything you can to get back to comfort.
So, you know that if you have a product to sell and the person has a feeling,
they’re afraid of the IRS and you’re selling a product that would be how to stand
up to the IRS. All of the sudden your product becomes their place of tranquility
and you’re going to be able to take them out of the flight-fight because you’re
going to have the answer, that’s an example of a drive and how to
communicate to the drive.
Another one would be the desire to learn. Scientists actually call it the desire to
be curious or the desire of curiosity. I call it the desire to learn. You were talking
about this earlier so I won’t go too far into it, but we are a curious creature. Sort
of like meta programs.
If you go back in your mind and you look at the meta program charts, they
always had arrows or continuums, left side, right side. These drives manifest
differently in every single person. Just like Myers-Briggs. Some people are
extroverted; some people are introverted.
Similarly, there are 16 drives. This is a fact. It turns out there are 16 drives.
There’s not seven. I wish it would have been seven – easier to sell – but there
are 16, okay?
Igor: You could always say the seven drives of deep influence and nine drives of
higher level influence. There you go, copyrights on that.

Kevin: Very nice. So the desire to learn is another thing. If somebody is feeling like
they’re not very smart or they’re not very intelligent and they’re trying to learn
something and then you have the answer to that, then you become a solution to
their drive.
Not everybody has this drive to learn. About two-thirds of the people that get
out of high school don’t ever read a book again. Those people are not driven by
the desire to learn. They’re driven by some cluster, some two or three of the
other drives.
The sex drive is enormous. In fact, next to the drive of fear, there’s nothing
more powerful then the drive to procreate, to have sex, to be aroused. Those
kinds of things those drives are enormous and anybody who tells you otherwise
is teasing you, so to be able to sort of wire into the drive of sex. I’ll give you
guys a taste of what’s going to be on the next seminar.
There was a test done in South Africa, a direct mailing from a bank. These guys
got some psychologists wrapped up with their company and it turned out that
you could offer a loan from the bank for a house at 3 ¼% interest or at 7 ¾%
and it turned out that more people took the 3 ¼ versus the 7 ¾ interest by
almost 100%, which would just make sense.
What was interesting then is that when they compared, instead of highlighting
the feature of offering the loan, the mortgage at 3 ¼% in their direct mail to
thousands and thousands of customers and people in a localized area. They
simply took a picture of a wholesome girl – and I took an image and it’s on my
website, KevinHogan.com, it’s about halfway down.
It’s always there. I’m not removing it because it’s been very successful, but it’s
a picture of a very wholesome-looking girl, 1” x 1”. I think it’s next to the Bruce
Springsteen picture, which will also stay there for a while, so you’ll see it.
Anyway, this girl has nothing to do with my website. I’ve never met her. I don’t
know who she is. She’s the only person on the website that has no connection
with me in any way. Just a 1” x 1” image and it turns out when they used that
image in the direct mail piece in South Africa, four times as many people were
willing to pay 7 ¾% interest on a mortgage if the girl’s picture was there than
when offered 3 ¼% mortgage. That’s pretty freakin’ amazing.
Igor: That’s pretty significant.
Kevin: That is just an example of the sex drive. Now it’s not a hot girl. It’s not like this
ooh wow she’s hot, like Angelina Jolie hot. I’m talking about just the wholesome
girl next door, 1” x 1” image, not in your face. It’s off to the side. It’s very simple.
That’s just part of the sex drive because that’s what we all want. It’s the girl that
we all want it’s not stressed.

It’s not even mentioned. It’s just super-liminal. That’s all it is. It’s just super-
liminal. That means is it’s just out of conscious awareness, but it’s there and if
somebody wanted to attend to it, they could.
Now there are 13 other drives. There’s the desire of curiosity. There’s the
desire to eat. There is the desire to be independent and to be together in a
group also, at the same time being independent and there are another dozen
and they all are relevant in exactly knowing what a person is going to do.
As soon as you know what a person’s drives are – here’s the cool thing, guys
and I don’t want to claim originality on any of this. A lot of scientists have
studied this for 120 years starting with Williams James. This is not Kevin
Hogan. I simply was the first person to take it and actually make it useful to
everybody else in the world.
So here’s the deal. All you have to do is look at the front page of my website
and you can figure out what my brand is. I’m driven by the sex drive. So here’s
Kevin Hogan and you know that. Therefore, if I am driven by the sex drive,
there are certain characteristics that are going to manifest because of that
drive. So you know that I’m going to view the world in this way. If I see other
people driven by the sex drive, I’ll go oh, that person has these characteristics
that I assign to them.
Similarly, if I see somebody who is not driven, I have opinions about them too
on the other hand. So, you can literally predict my thinking, what I’m thinking
and what I’m going to do based upon the knowledge of just asking a few
questions to me and finding out what drives are driving Kevin Hogan.
Then all of the sudden, you know almost like an eight ball, almost like a fortune-
teller, what Kevin Hogan is going to do in any given situation if you know the
drives, but try putting a sex drive with altruism, which also is one of those
drivers of Kevin Hogan. That’s a frustrating combination.
Now you know that there’s this complex person and that’s the deal. So I’m
going to show you guys how to sort of isolate your drives. We won’t be able to
get everybody all the time, but you know then what the person is thinking and
how they view the rest of the world who don’t think like them. So you’ll know
exactly when you look at somebody, if you just know roughly what drives them,
you’ll know what they’re thinking about you and so you figuratively can read
their mind.
You can figuratively read their mind, roughly speaking. It’s amazingly accurate.
It’s frightfully accurate and that’s one of the most important things about covert
hypnosis is being able to read somebody else’s mind.

If you remind me, Igor, I’ll give people a list of stuff that they don’t have to think
about. I’ll tell you 10 things that everybody thinks all the time and I’ll just do a
mindreading session for every single person listening to this call, all 500
people. People will go, God, Kevin knew exactly what I was thinking the whole
time.
Igor: I’m actually really looking forward to that particular session. I think it’s going to
be very exciting. So just to kind of sum up where we are so far, you’ve given us
a good taste of what human drives and desires are. In the next session, you’re
going to give us an actual crash course in that and, of course, if people want to
have the whole list and the fuller version of it, they can go to your website and
actually get the whole program.
The other side of it, which is, again, something we’ll be looking at in the next
session is the idea of subliminal cues. You touched on that a little bit with the
idea of this girl that is being put on the sideline of a letter.
♦ Can you tell us a little bit about that now?
Kevin: Sure. In the old days, we thought that audio was going to work. I go to bed at
college and I’m listening to the tape that says it’s going to make smart, cute,
beautiful, wonderful and sleep well. It didn’t work. It didn’t work for anybody. It
was the placebo effect. Richard Bandler showed this too in a cool study that he
did. Igor, you’ll tell that story if I don’t next time around, but Richard had a great
unscientific study that was just hilarious.
So anyway, subliminal audio just doesn’t work, but video does. It turns out if
you are very specific and you do things just right with subliminal cues, you can
cause behaviors to happen, if the person is pre-motivated. I’ll discuss this in the
next session. I can’t summarize it because I’m not that smart to do it in five
minutes or less.
But, if a person is pre-motivated or pre-disposed to do certain things anyway –

to drink water, for example, I can hand you a dozen photographs of which four
of the photographs actually show somebody holding a bottle of Dasani water.
And if there are five different bottles of water at the back of the room, on the
way out of the classroom the odds are that 67% of the time you’re going to
choose Dasani, even though you’ve never drank Dasani water before and your
favorite brand is back there.
So that’s an example of how we can use a subliminal – that’s actually super-

liminal. Super-liminal means you can actually see it, you’re aware of it.
Subliminal means…

Igor: It’s just slightly out of the consciousness. So, if you were to draw attention to it
you could notice it, but it’s not your focal point and, therefore, you’re not quite
aware of it.
Kevin: Exactly. And, as long as you’re not mentioning it, people will be influenced in
that direction as soon as you mention the cue, as soon as you say oh by the
way, that magazine’s here on the coffee table. That means I want to go see that
show, now people have a resistance response, which is overwhelming and
people will want to do the opposite. They’ll want to go see the stupid comedian
that you didn’t want to see.
So subliminal cues are very powerful and I’ll show you how to kind of put them
on your computer or how to make a tape, but I’m telling you it’s amazing what
you can do and it’s amazing how almost every single videotape out there that
uses “subliminal technology,” yes they’re using a subliminal technology, but no,
it’s not working.
Igor: They’re failing because they’re missing out on the main principle.
Kevin: They don’t know how to do it and so they’re getting no results. They claim to
get them, but they don’t.
Igor: I’m glad you’re saying this and I’m really looking forward to that part of the
discussion with you as well because it’s been one of my pet peeves. I think with
the subliminal recordings in particular, there are a couple of problems.
First, going back to the idea of subtly, some of them are so subtle that even
your unconscious mind can’t hear it. They mask the words so well that there’s
no way that you can perceive it and then it’s just a pure placebo effect.
The other problem is – and I think you just put your finger right on the nub of it.
This is something I would like to emphasize, is the key to subliminal persuasion
is it works great if there’s a pre-disposition, like you were already going to drink
water anyway.
It’s just a question of, which direction you get nudged in, the times that people
try to use it most are the times it’s going to be least likely to work, which is
when you already have an unconscious, shall we say pattern in the opposite
direction?
For example, you overeat and you’re listening to a subliminal saying stop
eating. Well, you’re fighting the pattern that’s already there. You’re fighting the
drive that’s already there, so you’re bound to fail. Unless you find a driver that’s
going to override the drive that’s driving the behavior you don’t want, the
subliminal has nothing to work with. There’s no energy in it.

Kevin: That is absolutely correct.
Igor: I’m really looking forward to that session. Again, I’m very sorry to cut you off at
this point, because I could go on for hours with you. But for the moment, I think
we’ve got a solid handle on what covert hypnosis is, how it works, the three
essential, shall we say maneuvers within in – the storytelling, the desires and
drives and a subliminal cue or super-liminal positions of things.
I know that in the next session, we’re going to be focusing on those three things
and look at some practical techniques that you can use, that we can all use in
our daily lives to have the power of influence using those elements.
♦ For the moment, is there anything you want to say in terms of

wrapping up what we’ve been talking about so far?
Kevin: Yeah, next time around, I’ll piece it all together and I’ll put it into a model. So
the last 10 to 20 minutes I’ll just actually show you how to put it all together in a
step-by-step cohesive model. I’ll give you a couple of examples of how you can
actually use it and that’s one of the things that I haven’t had a great chance to
do for the hypnosis community in the past, but I’ve done it for executives and
people all over the world in other fields. I’d like to do it now for the hypnosis
community.
Igor: Wow. That’s generous of you, Kevin. By the way, for those listening to this, I
think Kevin is about to let the cat out of the bag on something that I would be
quite happy to pay thousands of dollars to get and I’ve actually paid thousands
for a much lower level of knowledge. Kevin, you’re okay in my book.
Kevin: Thank you very much and you as well.
Igor: So for the moment, I really look forward to the next session. I’ve been talking to
Dr. Kevin Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. My name, of course, is
Igor Ledochowski from StreetHypnosis.com. I look forward to being with you all
again.

Igor: Welcome to StreetHypnosis.com. My name is Igor Ledochowski and I’m here
with Master Hypnotist, Dr. Kevin Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis.
First, welcome back, Kevin.
Kevin: Thank you very much, Igor. How are you today?
Igor: I’m doing great. I’m actually excited today, because for those of you listening
Kevin has promised to give us a crash course in his covert hypnosis method. Of
course, the full version of this will be in this CD set, which you’ll find at
KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis.
This is going to be a crash course and it’s going to be filled with practical details
on how you can actually use this. Literally, the minute you stop listening to this
recording you will have enough stuff to actually influence people in your life in a
really positive, happy and productive way.
How can it not be great and that’s coming up now right, Kevin?
Kevin: Very good. It’s going to be good.
Igor: Let’s start the ball rolling. In the last session we really focused on the
fundamentals. The principles that we need to know about in order to be able to
use covert hypnosis covertly, rather than being too obvious about it.
So, what I thought we’d think about or focus on today is really the procedures.
The things we can actually do, the tools and techniques. Now I know that you
have six-step process for using covert hypnosis and to help kind of define a
situation so we can actually have a real practical set of examples to really
understand how these things work in action, why don’t we take a typical
influencing situation.
For example, a sales call and work our way through that and find out how those
six steps would help you do a better sales call. Does that work for you, Kevin?
Kevin: Perfect.
Igor:
♦ What would the first step be, for example?
Kevin: The first thing is recognizing what your outcome is. You have a problem. You’re
going on a sales call and you want to make a sale. You’ve already identified
that your product is great for the customer, but you don’t know how to sell this
person specifically.

You’ve only talked with them once on the telephone and maybe corresponded
with a couple of emails, but today’s the big sale. Today’s the half a million dollar
sale, the $50,000 sale, the $5,000 sale and you have to go back and look at
your notes.
Whenever you talk to people, you’re taking notes. You’ve got to think about the
words that they used in the last conversation that you had, the kind of words
that they used. Igor, what city did you come from in England?
Igor: I grew up mostly in London.
Kevin: And it sounds like you grew up with a very above-average income family in
London. Is that true?
Igor: Yes. It would be considered upper middle class.
Kevin: And this you pick up, of course, through the tonality, through the elegance of
the words that you use. I grew up in Chicago in poverty and I haven’t worked
real hard to change how I speak either, but knowing how you speak, I can
actually sort of wire into not only the kinds of words that you use, the jargon, but
I can also change how I might refer to something.
Where I might say to one person, hey Fred, go grab the stuff over there, I might
say to you, grab the items over there or whatever words that you might use and
just match them, as an example.
So anyway, we write down the words, the metaphors that you use. Metaphors
are pretty important. When you’re listening to people talk, they’re always using
metaphors and assimiles and you want to think about how are they describing
the world? People’s metaphors, they really believe them. They really live in
their metaphor.
Igor: Just to emphasize that point, when you start training your ears for this, you can
really hear these things. For example, people who think that the world’s a
battlefield will say we’ll battle on through this. We’ll bust through. We’re going to
take this objective. Other people who are much more community-oriented might
say oh we’ll bring things together and things will work out. It seems like
everyone’s on the right path at the moment and so on.
These little mini metaphors, shall we say, tell you what the whole perception of
the reality is about.
Kevin: That’s exactly right and if you listen carefully and if you start paying attention.
Forget the metaphors that you have about yourself and your life metaphors.
Just pay attention to how other people are describing things with their
metaphors. If you do that, I can’t tell you how rapidly you’ll pick up on how

people see, perceive, live their life and then how you can easily influence those
people because you’ll be using metaphors that mirror their metaphors.
Igor: Exactly. So you’ve got this sort of, shall we say general analysis that happens
at the beginning just from the first point of contact, be that a phone call or an
email or a letter that’s been sent to you. You’re going to get some ideas of what
this person’s like based on the language and the patterns and the tonalities that
you’ve been exposed to.
♦ What do you do from there, because that’s probably not enough to

actually do a perfectly pointed piece of influencing, what’s the next
step?
Kevin: Well, once I meet the person, I’m going to observe their body language and this
will take a little bit of work, guys. I mean you don’t do this instantaneously.
You’ve got to throw out all of your preconceived notions about body language.
Really body language is about change. So as the person next communicates
stuff about the wife and the kids and the car, he stands or sits in a certain way.
Then when he talks to you about your sales call, he shifts.
You want to look and notice what’s different when he’s comfortable and happy
talking about something versus when he’s under a little stress. You can sort of
sense then later on just as an overarching generalization when they’re back in
the comfort mode. When people are in the comfort mode, that’s when you say
and by the way, would you like to buy this?
When people are in the stress mode as you’re observing it, you’d be a fool to
say oh and by the way, would you like to buy the product today and right now?
Does that make sense?
Igor: Exactly. That makes perfect sense. In fact, I notice some people will actually
literally in the sales presentation ask lots of what they call redundant questions
designed to get yes and no responses purely to kind of even be able to
calibrate down to agreement and disagreement. Do these people agree with
the points I’m making?
If they get a disagreement during an important point, they’ll go right back to it

and explain it again. If it’s still disagreement, they’ll actually the person on it and
say you know it seems that there’s something missing here or maybe I’m not
explaining something properly.
♦ Could you kind of enlighten me as to what’s going on right now?
Very often they unearth an objection they would never otherwise have gotten,
which is a very useful to get to.

Kevin: Yeah, the micro chunking like you just described is really cool as you’re
learning the process and it helps you become aware that there’s so much more
below the surface that we’re not seeing. That’s probably the best place.
In a sales call, if a lot is on the line, I probably wouldn’t go there because so

much is at risk when you ask the redundant question, but when you’re learning
this, though, that’s a perfect seminar strategy.
So let’s do a couple of other things, though, too. When we meet the person, we
observe the body language and then we want to sort of talk to them just a little
bit. Find out what’s driving them. I went and looked at a house the other day,
Igor. I was thinking about buying. I actually bought one last night, by the way.
Igor: Congratulations!
Kevin: Maybe, we’ll see, it’s pretty expensive. The realtor elicited - because he’d read
my work, he listened to my desires. He found out what was driving my
behavior. So there are certain rooms in the house that are far more important
than other rooms, depending on what your drivers are.
So people who are very food and family-oriented, the kitchen and the living
room is crucial and people who are very business-oriented, the office area
really matters. For people who are very intimate with each other, the bedroom
area matters, all the rooms. The children’s room matters, the passing on of the
genes or just taking care of your kids, little stuff like that.
So as the real estate agent determined – and by the way, this is over a period
of nine months – what drives are going on inside of my head and what really is
moving me, he knows where to key in at the house. It’s the yard, which is
terrible, by the way, but that wasn’t one of the drivers though. For me, it was
office, bedroom, my son’s room and the living area, the general living area. So
anyway there’s that.
Then you want to know, you’re there to make a sales call, but you wouldn’t be
there if your product wasn’t going to help the customer and, frankly, he wouldn’t
have had you over if he didn’t think there was a possibility. So you’ve got to
figure out if he had your product, why would he want that? You literally say by
the way, why are you interested in this? I mean you had me here. You’re
obviously skeptical. That’s fine, but why would you have me here?
What is it that you think this might do for you? Something like that you elicit the
outcome that’s cool.

Igor: This is actually a very important step you’ve just outlined here particularly it’s
not just getting what their desires and the drivers are. Something you just
mentioned there a moment ago is, you start applying it straightaway and you
can get information very innocently.
I know one friend of mine who’s a great salesperson, probably one of the best
salespeople I’ve ever met, does this all the time when he goes for the high-end
sales where often he gets treated, shall we say a little bit rudely or robustly by
the executives because it’s part of their negotiation tactics. He was saying, I
think he’s been in negotiation for the Grand Prix.
They started rattling his cage, he sits down and they ask him a question like,
why should we use you? He goes well, you know, I’ve wondered the same
question, I mean, why is it you’ve invited me to come and meet with you? That
totally threw them.
At that point, the whole equation is reversed because rather than him trying to
justify his existence, they’re explaining to him why they’ve invited him in the first
place. In doing so, they gave all their list of desires, their needs, their
requirements, the whole sales process they, basically, gave to him on a platter
just by asking that one question. I thought that was an ingenious strategy for
eliciting information.
Kevin: by the way, that is a great story and the Grand Prix too.
One of the reasons that we don’t ask people their values as much as we used
to is because they’re very conscious-mind oriented. In other words, people’s
conscious mind has a set of beliefs and ideals for themselves. Like who people
think they are and while that’s important in the moment, usually it’s the drivers
that actually cause the behaviors to happen and not the values.
Values are sort of secondary to the drivers. They’re important because they
help us in the moment and they’re very important as to where our heart, like
who we are as a person is, but our behaviors are not always who we are as a
person, if you can sort of understand.
Igor: Absolutely and the importance of that is, for example, values will change with
your state. So if you’re in a good mood or a bad mood, you have a totally
different set of values, whereas I guess your drivers will remain constant
regardless of where you are and what you provided. It’s the environment where
those drivers are valid.
Kevin: That’s it. They don’t change. They’re only triggered – and each person has
three or four that are usually key and the rest sort of lay dormant.

Igor: Excellent and I look forward to later on today because I know you’ll be showing
us a little bit about how to find those drivers. But before we look at that, let’s get
the whole model.
We’ve got the idea of the analysis, the elicitation of the drivers and so on.
♦ What’s the third step in your chain?
Kevin: Pull a tool out of the toolbox or select a strategy.
In this case, for simplicity, we would use a story perhaps, but there are other
tools. You can use leading questions, or you can use discovery questions too.
You can use distraction away from something. You can make up visualization
for a person to be in. You can actually combine that with a story. You can use
metaphor that matches the metaphors they’ve used. There are cool things, like
subliminal stuff you can put in at this point.
There are a lot of neat little tools. Some of them are amazing, like priming. If we
have time, we can talk about that briefly.
Igor: For sure.
Kevin: To actually sort of lubricate the sale to where it’s super easy to make the sale
and we’ll do that. So the tools are next. So that’s number three.
Igor:
♦ What’s the purpose of these tools?
Kevin: Well, your goal is to sort of get inside of the person’s head to eventually get to
their maps. So right now, you’re sort of communicating a story. Okay, so the
guy says, you know what, Kevin? If I had the covert hypnosis program, I’d
probably be a lot more in control of my life, I’d make better decisions, I’d help
other people make better decisions, I’d be able to make sure my kids don’t get
on drugs, but I’m a little concerned because I don’t know if I have $197.
So now I know information. It’s just a money issue. So now I can tell a story,
very much like what you did in the last telephone call that we did. I can tell a
very simple story, which is you know, I do know how you feel. Although I can’t
replicate it exactly, imagine this. I’m sitting here trying to debate whether or not
I should go to a Zig Ziglar seminar in about 1983 because I really want to be
good in sales but, of course, the circular problem always exists.
I don’t have any money so I can’t afford to go to the seminar, which is going to
teach me how to earn more money. Now you know exactly what I’m
experiencing because the seminar is about $300 for the full day. This is back in
1983. Today it would be about $1,000. So my heart is pounding. So I gamble

because I’m thinking about not today, but I’m thinking about this year, next
year, the next year after that, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, until I die, so about 30
years out because this seminar probably will change me because I know that
Zig is amazing and that he will transfer information.
So sure enough I go. I sit there. I take copious notes. I end up with a legal pad
and for me that actually means something because I have a legal pad full of
notes that I will actually review. To this day, I am so glad I went. I did not get to
meet Zig. I wanted to, but I learned enough from him that his words walk
around in my mind to this day and I think I’m a pretty good salesperson.
If you consider it a similar way, look at it kind of in the same way where this
might actually be able to change your life. Not like for today, but for the next 20
years and it gives you a foundation to look at other stuff in a brand new way.
That’s more than worth $200 and it’s sort of the same decision that I made with
Zig, if that makes sense.
Igor: Perfect. Actually, that’s a very elegant demonstration and I’d like to thank you
for that. These tools are designed to get them out of that stuck state mindset
and at least open the possibility of a new reality, the reality in which they
actually end up buying rather than not buying. Is that correct?
Kevin: That’s right.
Igor: Then I guess the fourth step would actually get a step further towards the sales
process. So now you’ve taken the tool out, you’ve told a story like you just did
then.
♦ What’s the next thing you want to do?
Kevin: Well, in a small sale like this seminar, I might or might not go on. Actually, I
would probably just put the paper in front of the person and say Kevin sign the
freakin’ document. It’s a no brainer. You’re going to see Zig. Don’t be stupid.
But in a more complex situation, in buying a house or buying a car, something
that involves more people than just you, now you want to create a bigger map.
Sometimes people need not just the going toward motivation, which most
salespeople focus on, but frankly, people are motivated by pain and fear far
more than they are hope, love and the good things in life.
Igor: For sure.
Kevin: Well, it wasn’t a person, it was a sales ad, but let’s just say the person was Zig.
If I was still hemming and hawing, this is what they should say to me. Kevin, go
out three years in your mind, 1,000 days from now. You did not come to the
seminar. You chose to be conservative in the moment, but long-term foolish.

You’ve got to think about this. Go out 1,000 days and just ponder for a moment.
What is life going to be like 1,000 days from now if you don’t get better at what
you’re doing?
The answer is, is that you’re still the same today. So just imagine a little line
going from left to right across the entire room and now just go three feet on the
line; that’s three years. Okay, so you just spent three years in the exact same
situation that you’re in now. How do you feel about that? Well, I don’t know.
Okay, go five years out. How do you feel now? Well, I feel the same. Seven
years.
Okay, you’re still not making money, you’re still wishing you did, you’re still
wishing that you could be more effective and be more comfortable and having a
secure job, but you’re choosing to put that off, put it off. Now you’re 50 years
old, you’re looking back and going, God, I just wasted my entire freakin’ life
because I was stupid. Is that really what you want to do?
Igor: Absolutely, not. No.
Kevin: That’s the answer. Finally, if the person at this point says, no Kev, it’s okay. I
really don’t want to go to Zig’s seminar, that’s fine because the person has now
made a decision after seeing the potential for regret. People are so in the
moment that they don’t make good decisions because they make decisions
based upon the moment’s feelings and the moment’s consideration for this
moment, but they don’t make a decision based on what’s going to happen three
years from now, five years from now, seven years from now.
Igor: You actually did something very interesting there as well, which I’d like to point
out to people because it’s actually ingenious. Rather than putting me three
years in to the future, which is something I might be more familiar with doing,
you ask me to go 1,000 days into the future. This is ingenious and I remember
reading an interesting study on reframing where the reframe was something
like 50% or even 100% more effective when followed by a mini, shall we say
confusion.
The way they did it was saying if they’re selling a $10 product in a supermarket,
they said, this thing costs 10,000 cents, pause, which is $10 to you and me. It’s
a great bargain when you think about it. That little moment of disturbing, of
taking their mind offline just did magic in terms of changing conversion rates
and you just did it then, which I think was very elegant.
Kevin: That study was done at the University of Arkansas by Eric Knowles and it’s a
beautiful thing. He comes up with more resistance-reducing pieces than
anybody. People should pick up the book, Resistance to Persuasion because it
is absolutely brilliant. It’s probably – well, I hate to say this but it’s probably the

best persuasion book out there I’ve ever read. I love the man and I love his
work.
He came up with that strategy and tested it. Of course, people have been doing
this kind of stuff, Tommy Hopkins, selling for decades said, for the price of a
cup of coffee everyday for a year. Well, Eric came up with the idea of going out
and testing this complex way of describing things just to create a very simple
fast distraction or a piece of confusion.
Not like we do in NLP perhaps, where we’ll confuse the person for four hours,
but like just a quick instantaneous piece of confusion to get them off the track
and then literally, exactly like you described it, 10,000 pennies was his piece of
work and I just had to make sure that we credited that because it’s brilliant.
Igor: I’m glad you put the name in there. I didn’t actually know where it came from. I
just came across an abstract of the study and I was just very impressed by that.
You, of course, are using it directly.
Just to keep ourselves on track of what we’re going here, we’ve got the first
four steps. We’ve got the analyzing step, the eliciting of desires and problems
and resources step. We’ve used some tools to get them out of their old stuck
states of mind. We’ve used some other tool to take them into a bigger map of
the world, including an almost Dickens like pattern where you say here’s the
path you’re on right now by saying no and all the pain and regret of that. Then
you’ll be going to the future with, here’s a path of where you’ll be after you
come to this little possibility that opens up to you.
Kevin: Absolutely. This is a crucial point. This is where the ethical principle of doing
what’s in the best interest of the person comes to mind. You’ve done a good
job, you believe it’s in the best interest of the person, but if at this point their
emotions and rational thinking – both pieces – are saying no that they shouldn’t
go ahead with whatever it is you’re proposing. At this point you let go, because
you cannot violate a person’s emotional state and try to force something upon
them.
This is where you don’t try anymore. If they say no the answer is no. If they’re
still oscillating back and forth, you are absolutely within ethical reasoning, the
realm to go ahead and say hey – and by the way and then I will just kind of pick
it up.
So now at this point, in the case of the seminar, at this point if it was a paper
and pen thing, this is where I would now – the person is like, oh God, you know
what, Kevin, you’re right. I’m going to go out 1,000 days and I’m not going to be
any different than I am today. I’m still going to be like this for 1,000 freakin’
days. Give me the – so I had the person the pen and that’s all the stimulus that
I need because pen means sign, sign is an action. We know that.

Even if it generates a fear response in the moment, that’s okay because,

frankly, people should feel the fear response any time they sign anything and
everybody, that’s okay because that’s just good sense.
Igor: Absolutely. It’s a commitment and there’s an unpredictable future. It’s a future
with certain qualities. You know you trust this person and the material looks
good and so on. You’ve made your best choice possible, but you can never
really tell what the future is going to be, so when you are committing yourself to
something that has an element of unknown, it’s reasonable to have a sense of
like, which way will this go?
Kevin: So now you hand the person the pen because that’s exactly right and you let
them decide if they want to sign or not. At this point if they take the pen, they
have now done a little tiny action, which is just accept the pen. At this very
moment, the pen will go to paper, they will put their name on the piece of paper
and now you have just started what could be a domino effect into the future.
As soon as the person goes to your seminar, buys your product and does
whatever it is you do then the person could have the opportunity to actually
open up the book and read it. They might actually come to the seminar and
experience it.
If they do these things assuming it’s as good as you said – they will fall in love
with your work and then what happens is because they went to your event,
because they spent the $1,000, the $2,000, the $5,000, $500, whatever it was
– the bigger the investment at this point, the better chance you have to develop
an evangelist.
So you now have a cause, I gave the person the pen, they said yes. Now all of
the sudden they own this decision. So they go home and they tell their wife,
they say honey, you know what? I’m going to see Zig, I’m going to see Kevin,
I’m going to see Igor, whoever it is and it’s like I feel really good about this
because I know I’m going to be able to make some changes along the way.
She’s going to go, oh you know, that was a stupid thing. Why did you do that?
We needed that $300 to pay for food or for the rent or whatever. This is
oftentimes where you’ll precondition the person for this, inoculate them for this
situation to handle it ahead of time, but let’s just say that the person didn’t say
you know what? It’s okay. It’ll be okay. This will pay off immediately – because
belief is so much about what’s actually going to happen in life anyway. People’s
expectations are huge.
Now the person comes to your event, or they buy your product, your book and
they listen to covert hypnosis and they go, holy smokes, man. That’s cool. I can
use that tomorrow. I can use that with my wife. I can use that with my kids to
they stay out of trouble. I can do stuff here that I’ve never been able to do in my

life. I now have some power and now they tell their friends. They say hey, you
know what? I went to Kevin’s seminar and that was amazing. You should go
too.
Now all of the sudden you create an evangelist. This is how evangelists are
created for other people. This is how buzz happens or viral marketing in its true,
most effective way. So we put the person on the map and we ignite the trigger.
In this case it’s nothing subliminal. It’s not a super-liminal cue. It’s just me
handing them the pen, which simply means sign the piece of paper. They’ll say
yes or no.
If they sign, it could trigger off a domino effect to amazing stuff. If they don’t
sign, that’s within their right and you’re happy and totally okay with letting go at
that moment and its okay.
Igor: Because at that point you’ve, basically, done your job which is to make it as
easy as possible for them to say yes and get the advantage of it. If they don’t
want it hey, there are lots of people out there as well.
Kevin: Precisely and this is where unethical – even if it’s in a person’s best interests at
this point, if it’s not life or death or if it’s not going to directly – they’ll have a
chance to do this with somebody else perhaps in the future. You’ve got to use
intelligent judgment. What do you want people saying about you next week
when they’re at dinner with somebody who also could know about you?
What are people saying about you? You want people to say you know what?
He’s a good person and I like doing business with him. Trust is the instant key
to getting somebody to say yes in the future. The person who you let go today,
they will remember that you were not overwhelming that you were compelling,
but not overwhelming.
Igor: When I was teaching my hypnotherapists how to do hypnotherapy and run their
practice, one of the tricks that I found very useful, especially when you’re first
cutting your teeth and you’re not really used to hypnotherapy yet, you want to
work with the things that you’re comfortable with. You’re not going to start
within with schizophrenics straightaway because that’s like whole different
kettle of fish there.
Kevin: You got it.
Igor: The great this is when someone calls you up and says, can you deal with this
and you check and go, you know I really have no idea how to do this and you
turn around and say well, actually that’s not my area of strength, but let me
recommend someone who might be able to help you.

At that point there’s a massive level of trust being built. This happened to me
before. That person will either come back with something else that you can
handle, or they’ll send you people saying, well, this guy’s the stop smoking
expert, slimming expert, phobia expert, whatever it is. He’s just not a
schizophrenic expert. I’m going to send all my smokers, weight loss or phobic
friends to him because this is a good guy and now tripled your business by
saying no to a person in the right way.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Igor: These are great steps. You’ve got a very clear set of steps that we can go
through to kind of create a strategy.
♦ How might we actually use them?
I know we went into the idea of storytelling previously.
♦ Can you give us a couple of guidelines in terms of how to take what

we talked about in the last session and build that into this sales call
and some nuances that people might miss otherwise that will really
turn their stories into power hitting influence paradigms?
Kevin: A quick review. Under the problem, the very first thing, the outcome, you’ve got
to think what is the best outcome for the client, for the person you’re working
with and then you’re going to construct that. You have to do it rationally,
logically and so it really is the best obvious, duh, answer that there possibly is.
There are a lot of pieces that go in the problem because you can analyze for a
long time and you should, but it comes down to their meta programs, their
desires, their drives, the words that they use, their body language those kinds
of things. The maps that they use, you’ll hear that through the metaphors that
they tell. That’s the problems.
Actually, analyzing is not so difficult. You’re collecting the information and once
you get good at it, maybe after 60 or 70 times, it’s pretty easy to do and you
actually know where people are going and you know what they want.
By the way, when I say what people want, what people really want is to be free
to be happy, to experience life in a safe, comfortable way, but they’re afraid of
the things that are going to get them there. Everybody needs to know that.
There’s a lot of fear in getting onto a bus or a train or a plane that they’ve never
been on before.
So you are the bus, the train, the plane and that’s what’s coming next is that
you’re there. You’re the mode of transportation. You are the answer to this
problem that the person has, which is creating securing for them and being

comfortable and living in environments that are familiar to them and to be

happy and those good things and you are sort of one of the tools that’s going to
get them there. You come next after the problem and you have to build trust
with this client.
There are a lot of ways to do that, but if you’re dependable/predictable, as we

talked about yesterday, if you create comfort, if you have credibility and those
things, then you will create the trust.
Now the person knows that they can rely on getting on your airplane and that
it’s going to be safe. That’s really important. It’s okay for them to have pangs
and twinges of fear. They should about you too, because this is the first time
they’re doing business with you and they don’t actually know whether Kevin
Hogan is going to take advantage of them or not. Is he going to really fulfill on
what he says or not? They don’t know so they should have a twinge of fear. It’s
okay and actually you should pace that, using an NLP term. You should always
allow that to be paced.
Say, you know what you’re nervous. I don’t blame you. I would be too. It’s okay
to do that because if you do that you reduce resistance because now that’s the
point that they’re fearful at this point. People in NLP hypnosis and sales in
general are so scared to point out the obvious. Like, you’re nervous. I get it. It’s
okay. People should be nervous.
You’d be an idiot if you’re not nervous. If you can say the words that other
people are thinking – and I’ll talk about this when we do mindreading – if you
can say the words that other people are thinking, they will trust you instantly
and they will comply with what you ask them to do because you are reading
their mind. You understand them.
You can do this by either just simply knowing that people are people – and we’ll
talk about that in mindreading – by eliciting their drivers – and by the way, are
you driven by the physical activity of life? Are you driven to be independent?
We’re going to require a little more art then that. I wish we could send the Reiss
profile questionnaire to every single person that we went and saw, but that’s not
life.
So we’re going to elicit outcomes or perhaps elicit some of the problems that
are in the way of this person getting the results that they’re hoping, which might
be accomplished through your product or service or you to find out what
resources they have. A lot of times people don’t have the $197 cash, but they
have a credit card.
Then you’ve got to go, wait a second, do you really want to put another charge
on the credit card because if your credit card is like mine, it’s bloated. It’s
overweight. Is this working making the credit card bloating and overweight?

Now I’ve just highlighted the whole freakin’ point that their credit card is
bloating. So as Zig used to say this has to have a much higher benefit than the
money that’s being spent for it.
Igor: The other thing you’ve done as well is by pointing out the, shall we say,
financial savviness of at least checking that the credit card has enough life in it,
you’ve actually built more trust because you’re showing you’re in it for them.
Like don’t put it on your credit card if that credit card is going to cripple you
financially. There’s another way you can do it. Maybe we can find another way
of doing it that won’t necessarily make your children have to eat shoes for the
next week so you can actually make rent.
Kevin: Yes. The funny thing too is that whenever you deal with the polarizer, the
mismatcher – my brother was a great mismatcher when we were kids. Well, he
still is today actually. It might be late at night and he loved to stay up late and
keep all of us kids up in the room. There were five of us in one room going to
bed at night. So I would say don’t you dare turn off that light until I’m done
working on my project here for school and he’d immediately go turn off the light
and let us all go to bed.
So you can get the same thing with the people that you do business with. If you
know that your product or service is going to help, go ahead and polarize it.
Say, you know, you probably don’t have the kind of money it’s going to take to
do this, or you probably don’t have the ability or even room on your credit card
to do this. Allow them to say no I really do, because it just moves things along.
I’m very good at getting things to go from Point A to Point B as quickly as

possible for people and for me too.
Okay, so that’s you. Now we’ve taken care of the, you part. Then there’s the
story. We talked about story yesterday and there are the two elements. There’s
the story itself. We all tell boring stories. Everybody tells boring stories. Your
stories stuck. My stories suck. Everybody’s stories suck. So just assume that,
guys. Your stories are terrible because here’s how you know.
So you come home and you say God, you know what? I almost got in a car
accident today and it was terrible. I was almost driven off the road. And, of
course, this happens to everybody just about once a week, so your wife or your
kids might say oh yeah, no problem Dad. That happened to me today too and
then they go and tell you. Why? Because your story isn’t interesting, you
haven’t figured out what’s compelling yet as a story.
Therefore, telling a compelling story is very important and then the covert
elements and aspects of the story be on the story’s purpose itself are important
too. If you haven’t built trust yet, if you haven’t built competence and the
perception of competence and trust, credibility and all those things, the first

story that you tell somebody, which has got to be very compelling, you can
include those elements in quotes in other people’s mouths as they spoke them
in real life because here’s the deal.
If you tell the same story over and over, people trust you. If you tell a different
story about the same event repeatedly and it’s like 50 different times and you
tell it 50 dramatically different ways, people aren’t going to trust you. So you’ve
got to be very consistent. Just tell the story that really happened and that’s cool.
Igor: Right and actually you just made an important point here again. If you tell the
story that really happened, because there’s a big trust issue involved, I know
there are some people out there who just say tell any story that will get the job
done, but the risk you’re taking there is if your story ever gets blown.
In other words, the person was at the same place or knows something about
the industry or whatever it is and they, basically, realize that you’re making this
story up, unless it’s an obviously made-up story for whatever purpose. If it’s
supposed to be a true life story but it isn’t, you can lose a massive amount of
trust and respect for the person doing that and that will make your influencing a
lot harder.
Kevin: Yeah, just don’t do it. This is one reason it’s good to have a set of stories that
you’re actually familiar with in life that you can actually share. You’ve tested
them. You know that this story is a good story to tell people in this environment
and it’s a very smart idea to think about that in advance.
I still tell stories all the time. Half the time they turn out pretty good; half the time
they’re terrible. They don’t accomplish the goal at all. That’s the way it is with all
of us and its okay, but make sure you put covert elements in if they’re required.
If you need to build that trust, that credibility, go ahead and put them in, but
make sure you put them in the words of the mouth who actually said it, or else
you’ll get called on your story the next go around when that person’s in the
audience and you tell it completely differently and that’s not cool.
Be true. Just be honest and you can do one thing with stories because of time.
Time constraints are huge with audiences, with people on a phone call, a
teleseminar. You can collapse a story. You can take your trip to Australia, tell a
story that happened over four days and put it into four minutes and actually say
this happened next, this happened next, this happened next and it actually
happened over four days, but you’re telling it as if it happened in one day, like
the TV show 24 with Keefer Sutherland.
That’s actually okay and I think it’s very legitimate and fair, plus you won’t drive
the person listening insane, you’re getting the entire point and you will tell the
story because it’s chronological the same way over and over, so that’s cool.

That’s the third piece. So there’s the problem, the outcome – you know you
want to have an outcome to a problem. You’re going to intersect this person’s
life. You’re going to pick something out of your toolbox and then you’re going to
switch maps.
Can I have like three minutes to share a story?
Igor: Absolutely.
Kevin: I went and saw the movie – well, last night I saw ‘Star Trek’ and they did this
exact same thing. J.J. Abrams produced Star Trek and he directed it and did
brilliant with it and he used the exact tool that Steven Spielberg did so well in
the movie ‘War of the Worlds’ with Tom Cruise, it’s a superb movie, people
should see it just for what I’m going to show you.
What happens is the movie opens up and you see a father and son playing
catch in the backyard. You see the son, the 15-year-old son very angry with
dad. So they’re playing catch with a baseball and they throw the ball harder and
harder back and forth.
Eventually, the son throws the ball, breaks the window of their house, very
angry. Then, minutes later after this has happened – this stress, this tension,
this frustration that we all experience with our kids and parents – the ex-wife
comes in with the new boyfriend and the little 7-year old daughter and they
come home. His girl’s going to come and hang out for the weekend. Of course,
now the ex-wife and the new guy leave the little girl with the irritated guy.
Dad will go into the house and the house is a total disaster area because
there’s no mom there. So the house is a mess. It’s a total mess. Now you see
real happening within the house. It’s like can you make a peanut butter and jelly
sandwich. You’ve got to find it with moldy bread and all this kind of stuff.
So this is what’s happening. What you’re seeing is you’re seeing hey, I’m here
to see War of the Worlds, but all of the sudden you’re drawn in because Steven
Spielberg is painting your life. It’s just a normal every day frustrating, irritating,
very real example of what it’s like to be in New York, a single parent.
Then about one minute later, the clouds start spinning in the sky, but remember
this is New York, so even though they look up, they’re not that amazed. It’s like,
oh, that’s interesting. I wonder what that is, but there’s still life as usual and
Tom goes to work.
Now you see this is really New York. People laugh and they go, yeah, you
know you should have paid attention to those clouds. So he goes to work and
this is exactly how it is in New York and New Yorkers are special. You get this
more than anybody because they’re a very fast-paced city.

So now we’ve just seen real modeled. You’re not going oh yes, this is very real
life. This is what I experience every day. It simply has paced your reality.
Steven Spielberg has come over to your map and lived on your map. He has
told you what your life is like, what your experiences are like and if not your life
it’s your sister’s and your brother’s.
Then what he’s going to do as soon as he has you believing that this is all real,
that this setting is all real, that everything is real, all of the sudden the aliens
come. Now the aliens are here. As soon as the aliens come, because it’s so
unbelievable – it’s not like a little tiny saucer coming from out of the space –
and I’m not going to blow the movie, because you should see it.
What happens is to improbable and so unreal that it would not have worked
had the movie started there. You would not have believed it. You would not
have been connected to the characters in the movie.
When you tell a story and you’re trying to draw somebody from their map to
your map, you have to make sure that you show them that you really get their
map by describing or by telling a story, two, three, four or five minutes that is all
about their map, that’s about their life.
Then you can bring the aliens in at that point.
Igor: So the principle seems to be that you need to be somehow including your
audience because you’re not talking at them, they’ve got to be involved and
engaged in the story and, in this example, it’s by actually telling every man’s
every day story. This is elements of everyone’s lives. Every person who’s got
kids has had their kids be annoyed with them at some point. Probably maybe
marital problems and so on, so by reflecting that, people get sucked in and go,
this could be me.
Kevin: Beautiful. That’s exactly right. Then from this point – now Steven Spielberg has
you into a movie and the purpose of the movie is to have you believe and
suspend belief from everything else from your standing normal operating
beliefs. This, by the way, is exactly what they did with ‘Star Trek’ last night. This
is the exact concept that they started out with.
Jim Kirk in Iowa. Spock on Vulcan living child hellion lives. Then they bring you
into the Space Age, it’s very cool. I think movie producers are starting to get
that the movies that begin with reality and that show they identify are the ones
that do $100 million, $200 million. So that’s an interesting little side note there.
Also, while you’re on multiple maps realize there’s a bunch of maps you could
create. Steven Spielberg didn’t have to do the aliens coming from where they
did. He could have had the aliens coming from anywhere, had them look like
anything. There’s no perfect thing to do here.

You’ve just got to understand the concept of meeting people on their map.
Then bring them to your map that you want to show them your movie on and
make sure that in that movie you not only show hope, love, motivation, desire
and all the cool emotions but just like in War of the Worlds and Star Trek,
there’s also fear and pain from other results happening.
If you do that, you will ignite – you’re lighting a fire into the desires and the
drives that actually drive this person. So you will find out in their communication
at this point with you as you tell stories and your conversation goes on that they
will communicate words to you. You will hear their fears.
You will hear what things they’re interested in and curious about and all that
stuff and you will take mental note – or you can take physical note too, but you
can take mental note for sure of the things that are driving their behavior, what
things are moving this person.
As soon as a person is in a motivated state, whether it’s toward or away from is

not important. As soon as they’re driven either, away from fear, away from pain,
toward pleasure of some kind, some kind of connection, toward learning,
toward saving, toward an acquisition or toward any of the drives. As soon as
you feel that, as soon as you see it that it’s there, that’s when you ask yes or
no, or you create a trigger. You have a stimulus, like the pen that we were
talking about earlier, but it doesn’t have to be the pen.
If you were sitting across from the gal that you wanted to ask to marry you and
this was the moment and all of the sudden you’ve just painted a picture about
what life might be like on the honeymoon if you were to take a trip – maybe not
a honeymoon– that probably wouldn’t work.
If you were to take that trip to France or Italy and what it would be like if you
were there together, implying that you’d be together. Then all of the sudden, at
the end of your story you say hey, by the way, cheers, you raise your glass of
wine, tip it to your date’s and say here’s to Italy someday. Then you just kind of
clink your glasses.
As soon as she picks up her glass, she now has taken an action. As soon as
she takes an action, she’s also going to then take a sip of the wine, which
means another action has been taken. Now all of the sudden, you have rapport.
You have synchronicity. You have two people together and beliefs come from
this action immediately.
There’s a justification that takes place for the action that took place and that
creates another set of actions, which creates more beliefs, which creates other
decisions and things that they would not have perhaps decided two days ago,
but they’ll decide and they’ll change their lives based upon clinking the glasses
today. That’s how powerful tiny little actions can be.

Igor: Right.
Kevin: Now you guys, that’s it.
Igor: It goes right back to what we were talking about in the last session, which is to
get this tiny little seed. It’s not a big step. I mean, putting polite little cheers and
clicking glasses seems like a nothing, a no brainer event at the time, but it sets
the scene. It’s that one little millimeter off-the-beaten path, so that one day,
down the line you’re like a yard away, two days down the line or 10 yards away.
A few days later, you’re in a totally different environment it’s the constant
reiteration of the new direction that’s been set.
Kevin: You know you triggered a thought in my mind. I want everybody just to go meta
to the six steps that we just talked about and realize that before you have this
exchange, this six-step process, there is one thing that you have to do prior to
that and that’s to preset the environment or the context, or whatever you want
to call it.
You have to decide which restaurant you’re going to go to. You have to decide
where you’re going to meet the guy at the office, which office you’re going to
meet 0:43:05 take him to lunch. You’ll probably take him to lunch, by the way.
That’s usually the best answer.
People change when they eat food compared to when they’re not eating food.
It’s a long story. Just go for it, but you’ve got to set the stage, create the
environment and make sure that you’ve thought about what you’re going to do.
Take everything in the context and then go to work at the lower level in the
model. The one, two, three, four, five, six.
Igor: I think that’s a great and a very important thing because a lot of people at times
don’t really pay attention to these things and it can be as simple as what suit
you wear what color tie you wear to the actual meeting and all those things
have little subtle influences. What you’re trying to do is stack the deck in your
favor.
Kevin: That’s it. Blue is different than red on a tie and on the walls too, by the way, it’s
a very different feel. The soft blues create these very creative and gentle
feelings. Red is a very strong, powerful, resilient kind of a thing. Two different
moods, two different flavors, mindsets; it makes a difference.
Igor: It makes a difference who you’re talking to in a red tie, as well as where you’re
talking to them and what kind of product. Banker? I think a red tie usually tends
to be the right thing because they’re much more results driven and they think
this person’s my kind of person, but then a therapist might have got off wearing

a blue tie, if one at all, because that communicates a much different kind of
environment.
Kevin: Absolutely. If you’re a therapist, you should probably wear a blue tie if you’re a
man and you should dress in very soft colors if you’re a woman. In fact, if you’re
a therapist, by the way – and I know there are a lot listening – you should
actually have as neutral of décor in your office as possible.
Get rid of all the religious symbols and anything that has beliefs attached to it,
anything that has your heroes. You probably don’t want those photographs in
your office. You might not even want a photograph of your family facing out
because the people that are coming to see you are having challenges and it’s
amazing that people will look at a photograph.
When they see what’s hurting in their life and they see what they don’t have,
you create pain that you are trying to heal. Little tiny things like that trigger. So
try to create a neutral, pleasant environment to come into. That’s a cool thing. If
people do that, it makes a big difference.
Igor: Just to reemphasize this point. Its one people often ask me about whether they
should use music and stuff when they do their trance sessions. The answer I
usually give them is this. I don’t like to use it because you never know what
tastes people have, but if you want to specialize in a certain type of person, for
example, if you’re in a New Age community and there are a lot New Age people
around there.
Then, by all means, put your space, whale, dolphin pictures up and your music
that sounds like some whale out in space somewhere and they’ll love it
because it’s part of that culture.
However, if the businessman comes in, he sees the dolphins in space. Here’s
the whales churning away there, he’s going to feel uncomfortable and suddenly
your whole therapeutic alliance is in threat because he set the wrong
environment up for that person’s mind to be able to accept.
Kevin: You nailed it. That’s 100% correct.
Igor: So we’ve got a good handle on this in terms of the six steps and I really like
your idea of including the person in the story. I know we’ve talked about this
before and one of the simplest things you can to in a story to include the other
person is switch from I did this to a second person position. Either having the
person view the story in some way or be in the story in some way.
It’s one of the tricks actually from the old school storytellers. You know we were
talking about the ones that come of older traditions. They often include their
audiences and in modern times the only place you can really see this in a very

clear sort of way is in pantomimes. You know where the kid shouts he’s behind
you and they pretend they can’t hear and so on. It really includes the audience
in what you’re doing.
To the extent that you can do that with your stories by maybe asking them, can
you imagine if you were there standing in my shoes, seeing this person doing
these things. What would you do? I didn’t know what to do. Little things like that
keep hooking people back into the story and it makes it more real and more
powerful for them. It’s something that you actually have research to back up,
rather than just experience or anything like that. Right?
Kevin: Absolutely. That reminds me too, last night we were watching the movie ‘Star
Trek’, the motion picture it’s Katie, my son and myself. The three of us are there
in the theatre. Its opening night and we watched the whole movie, two hours
and then the movie ends. The movie’s over, the credits are the story was so – it
allowed you to suspend reality so much that no one stood up for at least
perhaps two minutes. We all sat down. It was unbelievably powerful.
As I watched, I observed all these people around just watching the credits roll.
Literally, watching the credits roll. No one is getting up. No one is leaving this
movie theatre. I was the second person to stand up. Finally, one woman like in
the front right part of the theatre stood up and she left. I actually felt kind of
upset at her. I was like, wait a second.
Igor: Why are you getting up? Hey, watch the film. He’s not finished yet. Look, the
credits are still rolling.
Kevin: That’s because the reality was created so powerfully and the map was
developed so well. I’ve only experienced that a couple of times in my life, so I
would encourage people to see that and see the power that you feel at the end
of the movie of leaving that reality and going back to yours. It actually hurts.
People wanted to stay in that reality. It was that brilliant.
Igor: It’s kind of like a trance glow. You know, when people come out of a regular
hypnosis session and they still have that glowing, spaced-out feeling and they
kind of want to go back because they enjoy it so much. That’s exactly why
stories can be so hypnotic, because it totally shifts realities, if you do your job
right. I think that’s a very elegant example of how it can happen even in day to
day situations.
Kevin: Beautiful.
Igor: Let’s move onto the next step then. I’ve think we’ve got a good handle on the
six steps of the model. Stories – you’ve given us some very interesting extra
nuggets beyond what we talked about in the previous session.

Can we focus a little on these drives and desires? You’ve talked a lot about
them and I’d like to focus a little bit on what you can do with them and give
people some tangible things to take home with them.
♦ What’s the overview of why you like using drives and desires so
much?
♦ What is the important thing about them?
Kevin: Two things. If you have the ability to understand what’s going on in somebody
else’s mind and their feelings, you have the ability to move them pretty much
anywhere you want them to go. It’s that whole scenario right there that allows
you to have the power with another person to direct sort of their mind where
you want it to go, to get them to actually move to get up and go and take
specific actions. So that’s that.
Then the thing that’s really cool about it is that it’s just not like a one-level thing.
There’s the level of the most basic, which we’ll do in the mindreading piece in a
second here. There’s the most basic level of things that are so universal that
you’ll be amazed at how it feels when somebody’s describing this to you and
you’re like, wow, how can Kevin possibly read my mind two months in advance
on a teleseminar. It’s not possible. How can he do that?
Then there’s the next level up, which is not quite as genetic, which is not quite
as base, it’s the next level up and it includes where environment meets nature
and that’s the desires and drives being triggered out.
Then there’s the level above that, which is the values, which is what NLP
focuses on a lot. What’s most important to you in life? What else is important to
you? What else and what else and what else and finding out values, which is
the highest level. That’s your conscious mind.
Your conscious mind does matter in covert hypnosis, but it’s not anywhere near
as important as the most base levels of the drives because the drives create
behaviors. Conscious mind creates desire to change, the logic or change, but
the base drivers. The core stuff is what change is going to actually happen. If
it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen from there.
Igor: That’s a very powerful summary. I actually do an induction I call the

mindreading induction and it sounds very similar to what you’re doing here.
The whole point of this is mindreading allows you to do the most amazing pace
and lead of induction because you’re telling them what’s in their mind already
and attaching new ideas into that becomes a real cinch.
I think we’re about to experience it all on this call because you’ve prepared for
us a little mini-mindreading session just to give an example of how that feels.

Kevin: Just imagine yourself – and just so you guys know, I’m not a psychic. Not at all.
I don’t believe in any of that stuff, but you might think so after this. I learned this
material from psychic entertainers.
Everybody shift your state for a second. Just sit back and relax, pay very close
attention to the road. What I want to do is I just sort of want to connect with your
mind for a second. So I’m just going to talk. You listen and you tell me at the
end that this is you.
I know – I sort of see that you have suffered some pain and much of this pain is
not necessarily physical. I mean it certainly could be, but a lot of it is emotional.
Sometimes it’s interesting how you have come to think that when the pain has
gone away almost instantaneously, another hole opens up and another pain or
another emotional trauma is there.
You wonder why the Universe, God or the world is just being the way it is to
you, that you don’t want to be in pain anymore. You’re frustrated and you do
things. You’re trying not to be in pain. You’re doing all the things, but you have
this amazing – it’s like this repetitive thing. It’s almost like this karma feeling that
you have that just keeps happening over and over.
Distinctly different from that but on the same kind of level is this concern that
you have about money. You need to know that your money concerns can be
repaired and it’s not necessarily that you’re concerned about just your money,
but it’s about the connection of money to someone that you love and I’m not
exactly sure how that works.
You might be worried or not, but maybe you are, but money is concerning you,
but not necessarily in how you’re going to earn it. I mean, yes, that’s always
there, but it’s more than that. I’m not absolutely sure what you’re feeling about
this because it’s sort of nebulous, but it’s definitely money you’re concern
about. I’m not positive what it is.
Perhaps tangentially. I note that you do sort of have this strong desire to
change, but you’ve been hesitating and you’ve been nervous. You’ve been
concerned. You’ve been a little afraid and part of it, interestingly enough I think,
has to do with how you perceive your physical appearance. I think you think
that you’re somehow – well, I’m not sure exactly, but you’re just concerned
about your physical appearance and that’s interesting because I don’t know
that you need to be.
Maybe what you should be concerned about is how overwhelmed you have
been. I think you are realizing that you’re working harder than ever at
something, if not everything and you often wonder. It’s like, okay, you’ve got a
computer, right? Life should be easier, but you’re not working so that life is
easier.

What you have been doing is you’re giving serious thought to making a change
in how your income is being earned, but you’re concerned it will cost you in
time. So you continue to hesitate and I think that’s the connection there.
It may be perhaps related, perhaps not, is that there’s been like this tension
somewhere in your family. There’s been like a tension. Maybe if you live with
someone. Maybe it’s that person. Maybe they’re not like your blood relative, but
they feel like family and you feel this tension that you don’t feel toward the rest
of the world.
You don’t feel this tension toward your neighbor and yet the person, this person
that you love and care about, you’re feeling a lot of frustration and tension
about them. You wonder can this happen to the people you care about? How
can they be mad at you or upset with you when the rest of the world likes you
and gets you and understands you?
People are sort of wondering about you as to when you’re going to fulfill your
potential and you sort of wonder the same thing. I would suggest to you that the
time to heal yourself is now and the time to make those decisions, whatever
they are about money, is now. The time to start feeling better is now and to go
forward and to have a little more courage and resilience as you move forward.
That’s my encouragement for you for the day.
Igor: That’s fantastic, Kevin. It’s a very powerful reading and those of you who have
listened to the mindreading set on one of my previous Master classes will
recognize Barnum statements there. It’s very insightful because what you’re
doing there is a nice mix of several things.
One is you’re taking some universal experiences that people have. No one
feels totally happy in their skin, almost everybody has some kind of money
concern, the relationships issues and all these sort of things, but you’re
weaving it together in a very sort of subtle nice blend of calling people on what
their day-to-day experience is like.
I also like the idea that you put in the little encouraging statements. A little bit of
advice here, a little bit of advice there, which really kind of makes me want to
accept it more. It’s like you’ve seen the value in me, you’ve seen the potential in
me and then you have a little suggestion saying, now is the time to take action.
I’m going, yeah, now is the time to take action. Whoa, wait a second. I know
what he’s doing.
♦ What’s he talking about?
Kevin: What’s cool about mindreading is that you can apply this – because this is
humans at the most base nature in how we have to live in today’s society and
even people who might be okay, well off, they are concerned about keeping

their money so the government doesn’t get it or so somebody doesn’t steal it.
There are all these things.
So literally, these experiences, the way that we walk through the world, in a lot
of things – not all areas, but in these areas – in terms of money and pain and
emotional pain, relationships and so you know the reason that we have these
tensions with people that we love it’s that those are the people that we’re
connected to.
I don’t get mad at Igor because shoot, Igor and I, our paths haven’t crossed.
How could I be mad at him?
Igor: Hang on a second, I thought you loved me.
Kevin: If you lived with me, I would, but I’d also be irritated with you every other day,
right? Realize that when you’re talking with people, you know their experience
in advance and you know that this is their preset. So, when I talk about the pre-
motivation, their drivers are going to be directed at getting out of these
problems.
But, because the status quo is so huge, the human need to be around that
which is comfortable and familiar – and people are like, yeah, but how can
domestic abuse and getting hit by your husband or your wife or your kids or
whatever, how can that be comfortable?
Well, it’s because people don’t know what’s going on outside of the home. It
might be worse and so they don’t leave. So even in the most scary, terrifying
situations, people look at people and say you’re being abused and he’s beating
you up, why aren’t you leaving? And she goes, I don’t know.
Well, she doesn’t probably know, except that she’s not able to move because
it’s familiar, she knows what’s going to happen there, it’s predicable and that’s
what people gravitate toward. It’s that predictable, familiar, comfortable set of
experiences.

Igor: Now taking another point that you started before this, which I think is very
important is the idea that when you’re making these statements that people can
accept because it reflects, mirrors their own lives, you have tremendous
leverage.
Not, just by knowing how to move them around – and I know you’re going to
show us in a moment how to actually find the desires and the drives that they
actually do have. But even with these generic things, I remember this is the
only thing I had when I was doing elective coaching my only sales pitch was
this.
It was doing like a, 20-minute mind read saying here are all the things that are
probably going wrong with you right now, you’ve probably tried all these things
here, you’ve probably failed in several ways and you’re wondering how the hell
you’re going to get to this step here because you have no way of doing it.
The irony, of course, is that 90% of executives, I’m talking about senior
executives, Board Director level and so on, face the same issues. The fact that
they’re a Director means that they’ve got certain kinks in their personality that
come out at this point, right? So it’s very easy for me to predict, but I think
there’s only one time when I actually had a face-to-face when I failed to sell a
coaching contract based entirely on mindreading.
I didn’t even have to offer the contract. All I had to say is, here are the things
that are going on with you right. Here’s where you’ve tried to fix it. Here’s how it
worked with you. Then they turn around and they sell me. They say okay, when
do we start? It’s fantastic. It’s such a powerful tool and when we get into the
drives and desires in a minute now, it’s really going to show you how you can
recreate that in pretty much any context.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Igor: Shall we just launch into that then?
♦ Can you give us an example of some of the ways you can pull out
some drives and then maybe some examples of what to do with
them?
Kevin: Sure. The scenario that we looked at before, I sort of floated around a little bit.
Its part of the Kevin covert hypnosis sales scenario.

There’s a slightly special altered version of the model for pulling out the drivers
because I don’t necessarily look for all the core drivers here, but in a sales
situation, I’m more interested in a couple of things, if you write down just these
two things.
The first is a list of three things. Write down experience, principle and status
because this is a sales situation or a buying situation. People have a very
strong tendency to buy stuff or experiences or people who will either give them
status or fulfillment of a life principle they have or to have a great time to have
fun. Zen moments. In the moment, right now, anything from bungee jumping to
meditation.
Now people tend to do those same exact things over and over. Not the same
experience, not the same product, not like I’m going to buy my diet Coke a
thousand times, although I might, but I’ll buy it for whatever reason. Now for
me, a diet Coke is not status and it’s not principle – maybe – but it’s probably
the experience because I enjoy the taste of it. I drink coffee or tea for the same
reason.
However, for buying a product like, Igor, I drive a 2000 Honda Accord. It’s got
35,000 miles on it right now. I don’t drive. I fly everywhere I go so I don’t drive.
So I have no status issue when it comes to cars. For me, it’s just principle. It’s
like why would I spend more money on something that I’m not going to use.
Most of the things I do in life are not for principle. Most of them, interestingly
enough, are for status, which I found interesting when I studied this. When you
think about really, why are you doing this? Why are you buying this thing? Why
are you buying that thing? Just think, why did I buy it? Did I buy it because it
was fun, did I buy it more for status, or did I buy it more for principle?
If you can think about that, one of those three things is going to be true in the
purchase. They’ll justify it with something else, but one of the three things will
be true. Now these are not part of the 16 core desires, but this was a sales
situation that we were using as an example. Now if you put those three things
on a grid and at the top of the grid on the left side you put Low Means – in other
words, the person has very little money – and on the other side of the grid, you
have the person who has a lot of money.
So now make a grid of six things. I’m doing this in my mind, so if I get lost,
forgive me. I’m going to pretend that status is on top and I’m going to look at
the categories. I’m just going to look at a couple here. I’m not going to do them
all. There in the covert hypnosis program, but the top two.
So the top two would be status, low income, somebody’s who’s low income but
very status oriented. This person’s going to be very high in debt. Does that
make sense?

Igor: Absolutely, because they keep buying expensive products that they can’t
afford.
Kevin: Exactly and we call this person a striver, somebody who’s striving to be like the
actualizer or the fulfilled person, the person who actually has accomplished on
the high dollar figure side.
The person who is the fulfilled, who actually has all the stuff and all the means
to do it is a very different person than the striver because the fulfilled person
doesn’t have to have the Rolex. In fact, they don’t have to have a lot of the
trappings that the striver buys. So the striver might be out there buying all the
Mercedes, where the wealthy person, you never know, he might be driving a
Honda.
Igor: You see this a lot in the U.K., for example, where the really wealthy old families
are all running around in jumpers – I think you call them sweaters – with holes
in them and wearing Wellington boots and their house is slightly disheveled.
Whereas people who are kind of new money people, who have just made a
bunch of wealth, or even haven’t made that much but aspire to project that
image anyway, they have an immaculate house and it almost looks like a
showroom more than anything else.
You really sense the difference in terms of their attitude towards money,
depending on when you walk through the house the first things you see.
Kevin: That’s it and there are very simple predictions. These categories of people –
high means, low means – and then the contrast with the status experience and
principle, when you think about those people – like if you have a highly
principled person and they probably don’t shop at Wal-Mart. If you have a
striver, which is that combination of the lower middle income with the status,
that person would never go to Wal-Mart. They won’t go to Wal-Mart.
Igor: Right, because it would lower their status rather than increasing it.
Kevin: The fulfilled person probably wouldn’t care. If there’s a Wal-Mart there, they’d
run in and go grab what they needed. If there was a Target nearby, they’d go
there. Costco, whatever, because they’re more pragmatic about what they do,
but each of these categories – and you can sort of play with it in your mind.
You can kind of figure it out on your own as to what these people do, but I’ll tell
you, their behaviors are extremely predictable because we put two little – we’ll
call them the meta programs – two little programs together that are very simple:
loss of means, no means and then these three areas. Do they do it because of
the principle of it (the point of it), the experience (the feeling that they get) or is

it because of the status (it gives them a bigger feeling in front of a larger group
of people)?
Igor: That’s a very interesting and powerful grid and as you said, people can work it
out for themselves or if not, the full set of consequences is in your operating
manual that comes with the CD set. Is that correct?
Kevin: Yes.
Igor: I really like that. I think it’s a very elegant model, partly because it’s so simple.
You look for a couple of polar responses and then you just put them together.
They’re very quick and easy to spot and then you’re away, right?
Kevin: I’m a pretty simple guy, Igor.
Igor: I think there’s a lot of genius in simplicity because if you make really complex
models, you can’t use them in real life, whereas something like this in a single
conversation. You can very quickly tell when you see 15 diamond rings and a
couple of Rolexes and they mention they have a Porsche parked in the garage
as well. You can kind of figure, okay, this person’s definitely driven by status,
which automatically switches you into one particular set of influencing patterns
and your life becomes a lot easier that way.
Kevin: So much and you’re able to get on that person’s map almost instantaneously
because you can model their belief structure that they would never go to Wal-
Mart. I mean who wants to go to Wal-Mart? I hate Wal-Mart. Yeah, once you
know how a person is thinking, there are behaviors that will come from those
two drivers, those two behavior tendencies and they’re extremely predictable
and you can actually almost read these people’s minds category by category,
type by type.
Igor: Right. So let’s get a little bit more general now, away from the sales category
into a more general sort of thing. I know that you have many different examples
of where you got 16 core drivers.
♦ Can we take one of those drivers now and talk us through how you
might find out kind of covertly, indirectly what any given individual
is on that particular scale, what it means to us and how we might
influence that person?
Kevin: Let’s do one of the ones that are more powerful and then one of the secondary
ones, if that’s okay with you.
Igor: That sounds perfect.

Kevin: I just sort of give you a flavor. Probably the most important of the 16 drivers of
behavior is the driver that causes us to leave the flight-fight scenario. In other
words, get the fight over or run away and get to tranquility and calm and peace
now. So just call it a desire for tranquility. It’s the flight-fight response result,
that’s where we’re going.
This is one driver that doesn’t actually have sort the meta program continuum.
All of us, almost everybody does not like to be in flight-fight experiences. There
are exceptions. People who are motorcycle jumpers, the guys who will jump
these cars, the people who thrive on fear, that’s a very different category of
people. Those are people on the other side of the continuum, but most “normal”
people don’t like fear. We want to be out of fear. We want to be out of anxiety.
We want to be out of the panic attack.
So there are a couple of cool things – and you can just know this and this is
why I wanted to handle this one first. It’s the biggest, the one that keeps us
alive. I’m going to take this right of the system. If you sell cars, you want to
realize, okay, everybody’s driven by the flight-fight response. So what is it about
flight-fight that is so important to all its danger it’s danger is what we sense.
Danger is what releases all of the cortisol and all the adrenaline and that’s what
makes us afraid.
So literally, start with cumbersome thinking when it comes to fear. So you’re

looking at the guy that you’re going to sell a product to or to the students you’re
going to teach or to your child and you think about things like, now I’m going to
sell this person a car. So what is the danger if they have some other car than
the kind that you sell? What is the danger if they own an SUV that might tip
over? What is the danger of not having the best and safest car for your family?
If you start thinking in terms of this you go, ah this guy has a family, so the
danger, the fears that this person has revolve around this area. Otherwise,
there’s the danger of feeling stupid or feeling out-grouped if you buy the wrong
kind of car because in Kevin’s neighborhood, I’m telling you, everybody’s got a
black SUV. It is just weird. It’s like OJ is going to come out at any minute and
there are just all these black SUVs. So we have a lot of public status about
vehicles in this neighborhood.
It’s very interesting. I didn’t know that when I moved in or I probably wouldn’t
have moved in. So that’s one thing. So when I bought a new car, if I were to not
buy an SUV that was dark and black, seriously, I would probably be a little
uncomfortable walking around. So actually, when I go to the dealership, no
matter what dealership it was, I would probably lean toward a black SUV, even
though I really couldn’t care less if I ever drove an SUV in my life. I would be
predisposed in that direction.

Igor: Right, because it gives you more peace of mind, tranquility because you know
you’re fitting in with your neighbors in your neighborhood, rather than being the
odd man out and being called on and stressed out by being different.
Kevin: That’s it. Another example that we use in the program is skin care products.
Now there are probably three-quarters men listening to this and maybe one-
quarter women. That’s just a guess. I’m making that up, but let’s pretend that,
that was right.
So as men we’re going, skin care products? What could the danger possibly be
related to skin care products. They’re fairly safe and you could look at them,
you could smell them. Here’s the thing, guys. What you don’t realize is that
women are terrified about:
a) How their skin looks;
b) What it’s going to look like five years from now, and
c) What it feels like
They don’t like the uncomfortable feel of unmoisturized skin and I kid you not,
these are huge things in the minds of women. So if there’s a woman, say
selling skin care products or a man, you think what are the dangers? Well, the
dangers are that the client’s skin will not be as comfortable or as beautiful or as
nice.
In fact, our appearance in general, which skin care takes care of, is very
important. So as you think about danger and how it relates to skin care, how
could that possibly be? Just think of all of the things that are relevant.
What is the danger if you don’t buy today? Well, the danger is, is I’d be wasting
a day and I’d be screwing myself up and that could be the day that makes me
look terrible 10 years from now. So people are very heavily motivated, women
are, to buy these skin care type products from Mary Kay. There are billions and
billions of dollars of these products sold. That’s an example.
Another one would be like, Igor, you’re a personal coach. We’ve talked about
that. So what would the danger be to not hire a personal coach? Go ahead and
answer that.
Igor: Well, I would personally say first, that your life will never change. It will probably
spiral down. If you’re in a place you don’t like right now, at best it won’t change
and worse, it keeps getting worse and worse. Then 10 years from now you’ll be
sitting in a pit where you can’t pull yourself out of, thinking I wish I’d spent the
money back then, especially if now is a time that you can actually afford.

In 10 years times if things keep getting worse and you’ve lost your income and
all the other things, the time when you need it most is the time you can’t
actually afford it. So the time to spend the money on it is that you actually have
the money and can prevent it from happening in the first place.
Kevin: Perfect. Then what’s the danger, so to speak, if someone uses a slightly less
quality coach that might be half the price?
Igor: It’s the classic you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. It might do a good job, which
is fine, but if he doesn’t know what he’s doing and price can be an indication of
skill level, then either it could take longer and then actually end up costing the
same amount just because it takes longer to get there. It could actually have
the opposite effect.
In other words, he might fail and in doing so, do you a disservice because you
now have built up more armor around the problem, rather than breaking it
down. Those are two things that would come to mind.
Kevin: What is the danger if the client does not hire you now? They say they’re going
to wait for like three months and then start then.
Igor: There are several dangers.
1. One, my fees will probably be going up in three months. It’s true.
2. Two, I may be too busy.
I only have certain windows when I actually take on private clients, a period
when I’m doing other things and not taking on private clients those are the big
things. Of course, in three months, a lot could have happened for them, so then
they may end up needing more to overcome whatever it is that they want to
overcome at that point.
Kevin: Which triggers the other one, the other danger in the area what if they don’t
utilize you regularly enough, don’t do regular session work with you?
Igor: Again, this comes down to what you engrain. Danger is all the stuff you got the
first time. It gets unraveled and you have to start back at square one again.
Each time you’re sort of building momentum. Momentum can be lost and so
they’re just treading water rather than building an empire.
Kevin: Okay, so if everybody out there listens to what Igor just said, there are
enormous dangers to not having a personal coach, not having the best
personal coach and not utilizing the personal coach regularly. I take a lot of hits
on this particular thing, they say Kevin there are just too many questions in the

covert hypnosis manual and the covert hypnosis program. Yes, there are.
There are roughly 1,000.
The whole point is to get people to think– to sit there and think – now this is
different for every desire, but in the case of the flight-fight, which is the move
toward tranquility. It’s to think about what the danger is involved in participating
in not doing something or in doing something so you know what the person is
thinking inside versus what they’re feeling versus what they should be doing.
What we just did right there is Igor was able to nail all four of the core dangers
of not having a quality personal coach, using them regularly and using them
long-term and starting today as opposed to waiting the first three months, which
by the way, the person won’t be back in three months. If they can’t make a
decision today, on this kind of an issue, an issue of their life, the probability that
they’ll be back in three months is very tiny.
Igor: That’s very true. My experience backs it up 100%.
Kevin: So there are dangers about automobiles and not having the right kind and not
having the safe kind and it just depends where the person’s button is within this
area. It might be in several places. Is this starting to make more sense now, do
you think?
Igor: I think this makes a lot of sense. What we’re doing is we’ve got a very clear
guide now for finding a little pain spot, which can be pushed to motivate
massive action. Take your example of buying a car. There’s a reason the walk
into your showroom and if you find exactly what that reason is – and this gives
you a very direct line towards that – then you’re a winner. I can see that being a
very, very, very powerful way, which is very simple.
Once you’ve worked out what these things are, you can use them over and
over again. The hard part is the beginning just working out a couple of these
dangers, but once you have your list in the back of your mind, you can present
them as and when you need them.
Kevin: Correct and once somebody has a perception of their behavior about fear, it will
come to a continuum. On one side of the continuum, the person will be brave.
They will feel that they’re brave. It’s like I always tell people that I coach, walk
through the fire. By the way, if it’s a literal fire, walk away, okay? All other types
of fire, you walk into the fire if you want to get where you’re going in life. Walk to
where it’s difficult. That’s the brave person, what they do.
On the side of the continuum, the people that you’re coaching, perhaps,
probably are timid. They’re less brave. So if I’m a brave person, like I might be
in public when I am the person who is at the front of the room. I at least feel
brave when I’m at the front of the room.

I see myself in this context because I know myself pretty well and I’m afraid in a
lot of other experiences, but in this context I know I’m fearless. I know that I am
confident. I know that I’m in charge. I know that I can be outrageous and bold
and daring and even a little devilish and even a little aggressive. That’s me. I’m
brave.
I see other people – and by the way, this is directly – I mean I’m not reading it
quite literally, but close, out of the covert hypnosis manual, which comes with
the CD set. So literally, I can just look in the chart here and I can go do down
and see you believe other people to be, how do I think? So if I’m talking to
Kevin Hogan, then Kevin sees other people as being faint-hearted, cowardly,
neurotic, worriers and overprotective. That’s scary. Wow. The guy read my
mind.
That’s one of the beauties of the covert model is I’ve been able to put together
not only what the 16 desires are – with some from Steven Reiss’s work at Ohio
State University. We’ve been able to put that together into a really cool meta
program to where you not only are able to tell what programs are the key ones
running in other people’s brains, but more importantly, how they’re going to
perceive you walking in the door because they don’t see you as like them yet.
So the brave person is going to see you as this coward, neurotic, this
overprotective person walking in the door and you’re going to have to show
them otherwise that you’re on the same playing field as them. One of the
awesome things about the covert model is that you can actually read the minds
of other people. To know who specifically, people define themselves as, just by
watching their actions and how they talk, how they define themselves, almost
literally, word for word and how they define other people, almost literally word
for word, people who aren’t like them.
Igor: Right and I think it’s very smart because now you’ve got an instant indirect
covert strategy for finding these things out, rather then asking them, are you a
brave man and consider yourself being brave? In different contexts people will
lie if nothing else out of politeness.
Whereas, if you either observe them or maybe even ask a slightly more covert
question like, how do you view other people, where you actually observe them
on the phone, they slam the phone down going everyone’s just a bloody idiot.
Then you have a sense that okay, this person probably thinks of himself as
smart because if everyone else is not, then that’s what he must be because
he’s creating that contrast. You’ve already got a quick insight of this person just
by catching them in a two-second moment and you go okay, this person thinks
this way.

Where someone else might get upset and say I don’t get it. This person seems
to be very weird because most people get this. I don’t know why he doesn’t get
this. Then that person will think of that totally differently. Same scenario, but
rather than projecting that the whole population of people are idiots, he’s
projecting it to one person and going, I don’t get why this person is not like
everyone else.
Kevin: Perfect.
Igor: You instantly have an idea of what’s going on inside their mind.
Kevin: That key opens up the door and then it’s so easy to communicate with that
person once you know how they’re thinking. Especially with the core drivers,
like fear, which is the desire for tranquility, people who are fear-driven, driven
for sex, physical activity and the desire to acquire and learn. Those are the core
five or six big ones.
There are 10 or 11 secondary; can we do another one? Do one more?
Igor: Absolutely. Let’s do a secondary one. I really like what you’re doing here right
now. I know we don’t have enough time to go into the full system, which is what
the CDs are for, but you’ve already given us some really important insight in
terms of just that one thing ahead and really knowing how to find them as well.
Let’s take kind of a minor driver now to get a sense of where that takes us.
Kevin: I think one of the cools ones – they’re all kind of cool when you look at it, but
one of the cool ones for a recession, for an economic recession like we’re going
through right now is the desire to save. The interesting thing is that we have a
desire to have tranquility, but most of us live in fear and flight-fight every single
day, but the desire is to have tranquility.
Similarly, we have the desire to save and to store up nuts for the future like the
squirrel, but the fact is that most people spend. Makes sense, yes? Now I
happen to be a saver because I grew up very, very poor. I mean really poor.
We had no money because my stepdad was in debt with medical bills for five
years to the hospital for heart failure and all this kind of stuff. We ended up in
the ‘70s in debt at a rate of about $1 million before he passed away.
Igor: Wow. That’s a very hard place to come from.
Kevin: It was staggering. So my mom drove deep into me the need to save. You must
save. You must save. So that worked. I mean she was there and so this driver
is already within people, but my mom hit on this over and over, so when you
see, like the inside of my house, you can tell that I’ve saved. I collect. I’m

inquisitive. I save stuff. I save money, I save cash, I save gold I have savings
accounts and bank accounts and checking accounts.
I’ve determined, I believe, I feel this desire to save and I do that’s the side of
the continuum that I’m on. So, I perceive of myself as a planner because mom
wanted me to plan ahead so the bad stuff would not happen to Kevin. For me,
as I look out at the world, I look out at the world and I go okay guys, now I’ve
saved for however many years this has been because my mom programmed
me with this and pushed this desire button.
What I see is a bunch of people who are going to be coming to the bank with
Kevin and asking for a loan because they’re going to lose their job and they’re
going to have bad times and difficult things are going to happen because they
didn’t plan, because they went and played and played in the moment. They
went boating. They went fishing and went and did all these things when they
should have been planning and storing nuts.
So I look at this group of people and I go, man, that’s most of the world out
there. That’s probably 75%. These people are not thinking. They’re not clear-
headed. They’re being stupid. They’re being wasteful by screwing up their
entire life by having 20 minutes of fun right now.
Now by the way, this does not mean that Kevin is right. This is simply how I
perceive myself and the world and if you go into the covert hypnosis manual,
you’ll see that this is precisely what the manual tells you. It shows exactly how
Kevin will see himself and how he’ll see the person with this desire, this driver
pushed down that’s actually driving a behavior every single day.
You see how the person views the rest of the world and if you want to have a
conversation with Kevin Hogan to get him to come talk to your group for free or
do an interview, the thing you want to do is grab a driver. Find out how Kevin
perceives the rest of the world and talk about the rest of the world. Say hey
Kevin, how would you like to teach the rest of the world to start planning, to
start saving money, to start doing what’s in their best interest for the rest of their
life?
All of the sudden I go yeah Igor, we can do that. No problem.
Igor: I want to help these people sort their lives out so they can leave me alone. I’m
going to show them how to save some money, plan their future and all that sort
of stuff. I share the same drivers as you, by the way. I can already feel myself
sitting there going yeah, I’d do a seminar, because I think it’s my moral
responsibility to show people how to plan their lives. I’ll do that.

Kevin: That’s where I was going. So the deal is that’s it. This is how you can actually
use just one driver so fast. As soon as you hook me into a driver just by asking
me these questions, or simply say so I’ll just slow it down to slow motion here.
So you know who Kevin Hogan is. You know the driver. This one driver is one
of his four biggies.
To get Kevin Hogan to do something, you would simply say hey Kevin, how
would you like to show other people? By the way, a side note, one of Kevin’s
drivers is altruism, third person thing here, altruism. How would you like to do
this for other people. Altruism that’s one of the drivers, that’s an important part
of this equation, by the way.
Back to this driver, its like, how would you like to show other people for free in a
seminar how to plan ahead? How to live a more intelligent life, how to be more
careful, how to be more carefully prepared for the future, how to have more for
their entire life instead of having more for this morning or for today?
All of the sudden my mind goes, oh my God. You get it. Yes! So
instantaneously, it did not require anything more than being aware of how Kevin
communicates maybe in Coffee with Kevin Hogan. By the way, can I mention
that?
Igor: Sure.
Kevin: I spaced that out completely, guys. Look at that. Three seminars and I didn’t
even mention it. Coffee with Kevin Hogan is the ezine that I publish each week.
I think it’s pretty doggone good. Most people who subscribe stay subscribed for
thousands of days and they report to me that they love it. It’s fairly edgy. It’s
aggressive. It’s intelligent. It talks about the kind of the stuff we’re talking about
today. It costs nothing and if you go to KevinHogan.com, you can pick it up
there because it’s very forward-oriented.
Anyway, so that’s that. Thank you very much, by the way, for that free plug
there. I appreciate that.
So anyway, now you’re going to get it. It’s like okay, so how do you get Kevin to
do something. Well, now you know his driver for this, so all you have to do is
replicate my feelings, my thoughts with your words coming at me and you have
my whole brain and whole attention and its like, there you go. Can I do the
interview? Of course, you can do the interview, of course. Yes, let’s do this.
Yes, that’s all there is to this stuff.
Igor: Just to emphasize a point. The energy, the excitement that you’re just
describing there – and I felt it myself – is very similar to what you had earlier on
when you were doing the mindreading stuff, which is, it hits a button inside us.

Then it’s almost like this person gets me and suddenly there’s a massive
energy for motivation for whatever that person wants because that person gets
you. It’s hard to describe, but when you get it, you just have to think about your
own life.
Or you meet someone who you’re fascinated by just because they get you they
understand you and you just feel drawn to that person as a result. If they ask
you for a favor, or they recommend you to do something, you go, by God, I’m
going to do it because he gets me. It doesn’t make logical sense, but that’s the
emotional sense, which actually drives most behaviors.
Igor: It is. If people only took away this one thing from the covert hypnosis model and
they use this one little tiny piece, they would notice everything in their life
change and I mean change for the better. Change for amazing, change for a
while, change for insight, change for who you can meet, I’m telling you, you can
meet amazing people if you can connect with them on their driver.
One of the things that fun for me is the status thing I was telling about. I really
do enjoy status of meeting certain kinds of people. There’s a very select,
different kind of groups of people that are interesting to me, so I’ll use these
drivers to get a whole lot of these people, run into them, have conservations
and talk or just hang out for lunch or dinner someday. It’s not evil or good or
bad. There’s nothing to it. It’s just that’s who Kevin is and so when I want
somebody to do something I want to do, this is how I connect with them. I use
their drivers.
Igor: Right. I think that’s a very, very powerful model on its own, but there’s actually a
lot more to the covert hypnosis model. For example, we talked about subliminal
cues and super-liminal cues and stuff like that.
♦ Can you tell us a little bit about what that’s about?
I think you’ll agree with me on this, that this whole field of subliminal tapes and
so on is not quite as robust as people think is it.
Kevin: Right. That is correct. The research at the Universities, they started doing it in
the late ‘90s. They started collecting and there was so much of it and it’s turned
out that the auditory subliminal CDs, tapes, they really turned out to be not
effective and the reason was because the information that was spoken into the
recording was so soft that it was not registered by the auditory system.
One of the things that was funny at the movie that we went to, is when the guy
in front of me coughed, I coughed and then the guy next to me on the other
side cough and the guy behind me coughed and then four people coughed on
the side of the room. There was no coughing for like the first 10 minutes.

To prime a behavior, these little super-liminal cues, these things that do happen
in consciousness that you can hear, those things can definitely change a
behavior. They changed an entire room of silent people into coughing for about
17 seconds during the movie, which I found, as always, fascinated because I’m
constantly amazed at what primes behaviors and how viral things get so fast.
So, yes, the auditory cues are definitely very, very powerful, but as far as
subliminal, you could probably not use the tapes and be just as well off. Can I
tell the story about Richard Bandler?
Igor: Please do. It’s a great story.
Kevin: Years ago, back in the 1970s – and by the way, this is my version of the story
that he told. I could be totally wrong. I could be making this up out of thin air,
okay? But this is how I remember it.
This is Santa Cruz days when Richard Bandler was with John Grinder at the
University of California, Santa Cruz and they did this great experiment. One of
the interesting things about Richard Bandler is that he does things in the quite
not normal way. So he made subliminal tapes. He had this love for music,
which you notice when you go to an event or you want him on video. He loves
music.
So he made these subliminal tapes back in the ‘70s and on one tape he labeled
it, I believe it was something like, feel good about yourself. So you labeled it
feel good about yourself and laid down the music and then he laid down the
words, you are a dirty mother fucker. You suck. You are so terrible. You are so
stupid. You’re a total idiot. You are just a moron this whole thing.
Then on another tape he made it was like self-confidence and then he laid into
the tracks, which he actually recorded thinking this might work through his
assistant and he put in like you are going to screw up so bad today. It’s the
same kind of thing on the other tape.
Anyway, he mixed up the tapes and handed them to everybody. This was not a
like double blind experiment where there was an alternative. It was simply
what’s going on, on these tapes. Well, the people got the tapes and the only
thing that was labeled as positive for the confidence and for the self-motivation
was the label. That was it because all the rest was evil. It was subliminal, but it
was evil.
Well, to a tee, the entire group, the class they did this for, everybody reported
back at the end of the week that the tapes were making them feel better, more
confident, more motivated and that they had never felt so good in their lives.
That’s roughly the story that Richard tells.

Now when I first heard that, I was like, oh come on. That can’t be real, but then,
as you follow it up and you do the research, what the other academics, who
had actually researched this not quite as intensely using subliminal, that’s
exactly the results they get.
Igor: I remember reading a study exactly like this actually, where they purposely
swapped two groups. A group that was listening to a better memory tape were
given a confidence tape and the people who were going for confidence, were
actually given the better memory tape and then they just tracked their progress
and two things came out.
For example, the people who were supposed to get a better memory reported
that they got a better memory, despite the fact they were listening to a
confidence tape, but even when they were listening to the better memory tape
and reported better memory, when they actually had their memory tested, their
memory was actually the same as before.
So it’s not just the placebo effect in action. It’s actually what people call the
pseudo-placebo effect, where they think they’re changing, but sometimes they
don’t even change at all. It’s just an attitude of mind.
Kevin: It’s all pretty cool. The fascinating thing, of course, is that the expectancy of the
whole thing is really what’s the crucial piece here, what you anticipate to
happen. The auditory, though, has no power.
So in 1999, a guy named Todd Stark who used to post all the time on alt-
psychology-NLP. This guy is just one of the smartest guys in the world. Read
his book reviews at Amazon.com and you can get a lot of cool books to read
because he reviewed some of the most important books in the evolution of my
thinking, that’s for sure, a great inspiration for me, Todd Stark.
Todd put a post up on alt-psychology-NLP, which I know this is a weird group. I

don’t even think this group exists anymore. It might. I doubt it. I don’t know. So
anyway, he put a post up and it said, video subliminals might actually work. I
remember writing a post back and this was back when anarchy reigned on the
Internet. I just said, you know Todd, you’re a very smart man, but that’s just
ridiculous.
Subliminals don’t work. He wrote back a very intelligent, a very well-thought-out

review of a study that was just done, I think it was by a guy named Greenwald
but again, I could be wrong on that. He was reviewing it and he was saying, you
know what, Kevin? I think you’re wrong on this because I think that subliminal
video actually will work and he laid out a very good argument and I was
extremely skeptical, but one of the things that’s overwriting principles in my life
is proving myself wrong, just in case I’m wrong.

Sure enough, I started to look at this in detail and in 2000, as each year has
gone on, there are more studies showing that subliminal video cues, single
words or images actually do shift behavior and act as triggers for people to buy
something or to grab something at the back of the room instead of something
else. They might have been playing a computer game, maybe like War Craft or
whatever on the computer and then the experimenter will flash totally
unseeable images.
So they flash unseeable images, subliminal images of Dasani water – we talked

about one of the Dasani experiments yesterday. This is another one, where
they would flash Dasani water and there were several different kinds in the
back of the room and as the kids left not everybody took Dasani water.
However, it was a dramatically overwhelmingly large amount of people

contrasted to Poland Springs, Aquafina and the other kinds of water, which was
very interesting and should not have happened because it was not a Dasani
campus. In other words, they didn’t sell the product on that campus. Nobody
drank the stuff. That was cool.
So as you watch all these subliminal – and I know what you’re thinking. You
guys are thinking Kev, you know what, I don’t have the technology to make
subliminal video. That’s okay. You don’t have to. There is cool stuff you can do
without having something subconscious and by the way, in the Dasani
experiment there was about 7% of the students who actually could see and
were aware that Dasani was being flashed at them. That was pretty amazing.
I didn’t think at 1/30th of a second at 300 milliseconds or 30 milliseconds –

somebody correct me on this later. I’ll say it’s 30. At 30 milliseconds that any
human actually could see that, but it turned out that 7% actually could. That
was a really interesting little tidbit for a nerd like me.
Igor: I’d like to pause for a moment. I think that’s a very important point and it comes
to any kind of, shall we say, slightly out of conscious activity and something that
has to be done over and over again, which is the level of subtly has to be
adapted to the individual because for some people, subtle is so blatant it’s like,
oh come on.
But the same kind of subtle will be so subtle that other people won’t even notice
it unconsciously, which is kind of like some of the subliminal tapes are. If they
don’t even reach an unconscious level of understanding, then you just
completely waste your time.
Kevin: That’s exactly right. At the end of this experiment, they ultimately took out in the
report results the people who actually saw the Dasani, but here’s what was
interesting. It’s not like they stopped the kids from doing the experiment. The
kids walked out, but do you know what they walked out with was not Dasani.

So the kids who actually saw Dasani’s logo flashed for whatever it was, five,
six, seven minutes while they played this game, they refused to drink the
Dasani water on their way out. They grabbed Aquafina, Poland Springs, the
other types of brands instead of Dasani.
So in other words, as soon as people realized that they were being manipulated
and that they were being shown these things with the obvious intention to
manipulate their behavior, they refused to comply when it came to the point. So
when you’re using subliminals and, of course, they retested this and found that
this was a powerful effect that when people became aware that they were being
– and they did this with photographs and all kinds of other stuff.
When people become aware that they’re being manipulated without their
permission, because we all love to be influenced, everybody loves to be
influenced. I’ll give you an example later, but when people are manipulated
without their permission, they refuse to comply and they do the opposite. They
do the polar response.
So you don’t want to be stupid. You don’t want to tell people what’s in the
subliminal video. You simply want to make sure that they’re in the mode to
where they’re going to want to take advantage of whatever you’re cueing in the
subliminal thing. For example, if you were very thirsty, you then could flash
Dasani and then they would choose Dasani instead of Red Bull at the back of
the room. That works.
Igor: There’s something very important actually in what you’re mentioning here,
which again, is another thing people miss. It’s this idea of preexisting
motivation. A lot of people think they can fix their life by listening to subliminal
tapes for weight loss or confidence or whatever. The idea is a smart idea, right?
The message goes straight to the unconscious and has its impact there. The
problem is that the message has no energy in and of itself.
If the person is already on a kind of confidence roll thing, then that will probably
back it up and increase whatever direction they’re going in. It’s the same with
weight loss. But let’s say someone is taking weight loss subliminals, but there’s
an unconscious need, a driver to eat, for example, for safety of comfort food, for
the experience of love if they’re feeling not loved for some particular reason or
whatever. At that point, even direct suggestions will have zero effect because
you’re violating an unconscious need.
This is something that people don’t realize. You’ve got to set up the
unconscious need first and then release it with some kind of super-liminal,
para-liminal device, be it the open magazine in your bedroom or a video
flashing certain images. The audio priming studies have shown that people will
also be willing to be primed one way or another when it comes to, for example,
resolving ambiguous words.

So there’s value in all of these things, but the key thing everyone misses out on
is it’s either got to be an unloaded situation, so when you have a bank whether
a money bank or riverbank, you don’t really care. Or, they’re already
predisposed. I’m thirsty. I need something to drink. Will it be water? Will it be
Red Bull? Will it be something different? At that point, you already have
something to mold and shape with.
If you don’t have that, then you’ve got to do something before it gets to that
point. Otherwise, there’s no energy in the system.
Kevin: That’s correct. You’ve really got this down. The research backs up everything
that you just said. People always want to know practical applications. There’s a
ton, because everything that works or doesn’t work with subliminal works with
superluminal and in other words, stuff that is not hidden.
A few years ago when I was doing all the heavy research on this, I bought
Magnetic Poetry. Do you know what Magnetic Poetry is?
Igor:
♦ Do you mean the little fridge magnets that have little words on them
and you put them together in different orders?
Kevin: Yes. So I got one of those sets and they’re cool. So I put all the words down on
the lower part of the refrigerator so my son could play with it. He was seven or
eight at the time, maybe seven and eight because I did this for a while.
Then I would take a single word and put it up at the eye level of my daughter,
who was 14 and 15 at the time and who really needed an attitude adjustment.
So I would take a word like love and I would put it there. One night she came
home and wrote this very weird thing with Magnetic Poetry and it was just like,
oh my God, what movie have you watched tonight? It was like Friday The 13th. I
was like, shoot.
Instead, I just would leave one word and it wasn’t in the center of the
refrigerator to where it would be so obvious. But I would scramble all the words
up at the bottom so my son, Mark, could play with them and then I would just
put a word – it wasn’t parallel to the top of the refrigerator. It was like off center
at a 50 degree angle. But the word would be happy or love. On a different day it
would be help. On a different day it would be kind. On a different day it would
be sweet.
When we did this, her behavior changed because she has this desire to be so
good inside and yet she’s very easily influenced by all the influences of the
regular world. So this was very cool.

Another kind of cool yet not so practical; we sell the subliminal set, a video set
which we actually un-sell about as often as we sell because of exactly what you
said. I want to give you an example.
Some of the people I compete with in business are people who might be in the
state of persuasion influence. Somebody like Dave Lakhani, who’s actually a
dear friend, but we compete. We sell books. I mean I would rather sell my book
than one of his. I love his books, but I’d rather sell mine. So Dave, you got a
plug and don’t buy his book. No, I’m just kidding you. Go buy it.
Anyway, one of my competitors, who I’m not going to name because we’re not
on quite the same relationship, but I said, I’m creating a subliminal DVD set. I’d
like you to have – I knew he had a daughter because he speaks about his
daughter the way I speak about my daughter. He’s very respectful, very kindly
and I really respect that in a person.
I said, I would like you to take these DVDs and give them to your daughter as a
gift and I’d like you to actually have her use them and to see if she would like to
have the changes that are made on the CDs. There were six CDs, but she
couldn’t have one of them because it was an attraction kind of a CD program
and would not be appropriate for dad to give that to daughter. Okay?
Igor: For sure.
Kevin: But the other five were like stop procrastination type things and action. Actually,
action was the keyword and there was goal and a bunch of other things.
Anyway, she reported, back to me every single day immediately after watching
the subliminal and she didn’t know what was on the DVD. So she would
observe this and then she would write back and tell me the next day how it
changed whatever behavioral change might have occurred.
It turned out for the most part – not always, but for the most part – she got the
desired result that I was hoping for. Now here’s what happened. I reported that.
I wrote that up in the ad because it was cool to have this specific person’s
daughter have that experience, for example and then report that.
But then all of the sudden, parents wanted to start getting this for their kids who
were screw-ups. Like my kid’s using drugs and they’re out there doing this and
they’ve been to jail and will your program do this? Well, it’s like no, I don’t think
so.
Igor: There are other things that need to be fixed first, right.

Kevin: Yeah. You’re asking an awful lot from one little teeny tiny tool. I bet you we had
maybe 100, maybe several hundred, maybe 500 requests like that from parents
and wives to try to get to change their husband without their knowing it. There’s
no way you can put a guarantee on something like that, just because of exactly
what Igor was saying about the present.
One other thing that was cool that you guys can do around the house. If you
want to make the person that you live with, happier with a better attitude… we
found that an image of a wholesome. I’m using the word wholesome woman
smiling has so much dramatically positive effect with both men and women in
so many different contexts– everything from sales to attitude around the house
to attitude in the classroom to attitude in experimental studies.
If you take a magazine, for example, Good Housekeeping, which you probably
would never buy in your life but it almost, always has a very wholesome woman
on the front who has a smile on her face. Just put that as the top magazine on
your little coffee table there and you put that as the top magazine, just test it for
a week and see what happens to the attitude of the other people in the house.
Notice how it changes from day to day and actually record the results and you
might be impressed as to what you discover. I’ll give you that one as a freebie.
Igor: The principle you’re describing there I think is very powerful. Just to emphasize
to people that this is not just something you’ve been making up. This is a ton of
research over the last 20 years that backs this up.
Do you mind if I talk about a quick study that reminds me of?
Kevin: Please.
Igor: There’s a study where they had people do some kind of pseudo-psychological
test and as a reward they gave them a cookie or something sweet that made
crumbs on the desk, the test was very simple.
One set of people just got the cookie and they left. For the other set of people,
they’d hidden a bucket with a little bit of lemon-scented cleaning fluid
somewhere in the corner, out of sight so that it was just barely perceptible. In
other words, if you were told that this cleaning fluid was in the room, you could
sniff and go, yeah, I kind of get it, but if you weren’t told, you wouldn’t even
notice it.
They found that people who didn’t have the bucket in the room left crumbs all
over the desk and just walked out without thinking about it. Those people who
had that little prime, that little bucket of cleaning fluid, just the smallest hint of a
scent of that made sure that they brushed their table clean, threw the crumbs
away and walked out and the room was left clean.

So these are subtle but very powerful devices. When it sounds like you’re
saying just put a magazine on your table and that will solve everything, it won’t
solve everything because we just talked about the idea of being predisposed
towards something or not, but for your average everyday situation, it is huge in
potential. The power of it is massive.
Kevin: And like everything else in science, you have to test. For example, maybe that
magazine won’t work, but maybe an image on a magnet would. That’s what the
whole point of science is. It’s to figure out what stuff works and what stuff
doesn’t. The results that are coming out right now in research is just mind-
blowing as to what images do.
What images? Images of horror figures or sharks or things like that actually
cause people subliminally, when they’re subliminally viewed and a person’s
been encouraged to do a different kind of behavior then people tend to do
much worse actually when they’re shown those cues on a video stream.
If you guys want to look up stuff, you can just go to Google Scholar and type in
subliminal research and you will get an opportunity to spend weeks reading the
material that’s coming out right now because it’s huge and that will save you
$150 of buying a different program that I have. So you can do that. There’s a lot
of amazing stuff that’s happening out there that you can do.
One other thing I do when I do an event, I’ll put a little tiny smiley face if I have
a flipchart or if you’re doing PowerPoint or whatever opportunity I have, but just
in the upper right-hand corner, just a little tiny smiley face before I walk in the
door. So it’s there.
Nobody actually sees the smiley face it’s just a little black smiley face on the
flipchart that I’m going to use. Nobody looks at it. There’s sign that says, hey
look at me, I’m a smiley face on the flipchart. It’s just there. It’s just part of the
room and I can’t tell you that that makes any difference in the room. But, I
believe that it does.
Therefore, my anticipation of the people that will actually be happier and more
inclined to do a good job for me in the course of the day and be just overall
more pleasant to be with and now I don’t know if that’s true, because I’ve never
tested the opposite and I don’t want to. So, you combine the subliminal with
anticipation.
That’s a pretty good summary of some of the cool stuff in there. There’s tons
more and I wish I could even go into more, but it would take forever.
Igor: Sadly, we have finite limits in terms of timing as well. Shall we just do like a
quick summary of everything we’ve done tonight? I really want to thank you
because you’ve taken us on a truly fascinating voyage through covert hypnosis.

Of course, this whole voyage is in more detail in your CD program and we’ll
give the address for that again at the end.
To summarize, we’ve got the six core steps of your influencing method, which
is to analyze the situation, to elicit the desires and problems and resources that
you’re going to work with. You use your toolkit in order to get them out of the
problem mindset and then create a bigger and more enriched map, which
includes both towards and away from; fear as well as pleasure as motivation.
Then we’re going to fire off some stimulus to get them actually doing something
and then, finally, we’ll actually want to get some small step, some action so you
can begin that action, belief, action, belief cycle that we’ve talked about quite
extensively now, I think.
In terms of storytelling, it’s a very powerful vehicle and one of the most
important things in storytelling is you’ve got to pull people into the stories. In
other words, you’ve got to give them a roll within the story. You can do that by
putting it in the second position. You can do that by mimicking their
environment just like the film you were talking about, the ‘War of the Worlds’.
You can do that with any kind of device that makes them get drawn into the
action story itself.
We’ve talked about stories in previous session. They’re very powerful for
getting people to like you, to trust you, to set them up for future events and so
on. Then we’ve got the idea of desires and drives and this is a very powerful
segment, which is literally how to step inside someone’s mind and have a little
walk around there so that they want to invite you deeper into their mind.
In terms of the sales process, we’ve got those three key things: the experience,
principle and status, but there are 16, shall we say biological drivers, like the
flight or fight versus tranquility, saving money versus being frivolous and you’ve
shown us how to find those, or at least those two and how to use those. Of
course, in your program you have even more of those.
Then another tool that I think is fascinating, I’ve always loved this. It’s the idea
of subliminals, which is how to position something in your environment, the
picture of a wholesome, smiling lady placed somewhere makes everyone more
productive, more agreeable and so on.
I love your idea of using fridge magnets. I hadn’t considered that before, so I’m
going to go and use that myself and just putting something at an off angle so
that it doesn’t jump out at you as being unusual, but it’s unusual enough that
the message still has an impact. It’s kind of like doing embedded suggestions in
a static environment almost.

With all that in mind, I think people have some very powerful tools for using
covert influencing and for actually avoiding some of the problems that you
might fall into especially I’m think about, in storytelling. Not including the
person; in subliminal cueing, it’s about the idea of predisposition and not
expecting them to be working when there are other things fighting it already in
their unconscious.
♦ Is there anything you want to add to the program?
♦ Is there anything you want to say about the synopsis you’ve given
us?
I know there’s going to be a lot more material in your course that we haven’t
covered yet.
Kevin: Of all the things that you mentioned that you wanted to cover today, we
covered everything and I’m totally happy with what everybody is going home
with. I think they got a lot of cool ideas, but even if they didn’t pick up the
program, they’ve had fun and will be able to actually make a difference in how
they do business with their people. Plus I think they got cool things that will
stimulate other ideas. I’m totally happy with how things turned out.
Igor: For sure and I want to thank you because you’ve been very, very generous with
both your time and your content. You’ve given us an in-depth view of your
product and all I can say folks, if you get a chance to listen to his covert
hypnosis CDs, it’s this kind of stuff and then just detail after detail after detail
after detail.
So if you really want to master that, it’s a longer program, but I think it’s
worthwhile having it. Kevin, what can I say? I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this time
with you. I want to thank you again for taking the time and making the effort to
be here with us.
It’s, of course, Dr. Kevin Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. That’s

where you’ll find – I believe you’re making a special deal for people that want to
get that covert hypnosis program. Is that correct?
Kevin: That’s right and they can read about it there. I’m not even going to go into it all.
I think that if you have the means, it’s probably a wise thing to do regardless of
status, principal or experience.
Igor: That’s beautiful. Kevin again, thanks for being with us. I’m Igor Ledochowksi
from StreetHypnosis.com and I look forward to meeting everyone who’s been
listening to this on the next Interview with a Master.

End of Seminar
On that final note, everyone, as much as I hate to say this, this is the end of this
particular session. We will be back again with another master next month.
Until then, I’ve been talking to a true hypnotic genius, Hypnosis Master Kevin
Hogan from KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis. My name is Igor Ledochowksi
from StreetHypnosis.com and I look forward to speaking with everyone again in
the next session.
Meet Your Host
Each month’s Interview with a Master will be hosted by Igor Ledochowski, a

master hypnotist of international acclaim. He is regarded as one of the world's
foremost experts and trainers in conversational or covert hypnosis.
Igor created the Private Hypnosis Club, the world’s first community for master
hypnotists.
He was the first ever hypnotist to release a full audio course on Conversational
Hypnosis, the latest version of which is 'The Power Of Conversational Hypnosis'
and is the No. 1 best-selling hypnosis course in the world.
Igor is also the creator of over 30 other advanced hypnosis programs. All his
programs are available from:
www.StreetHypnosis.com

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Hypnosis Master – Kevin Hogan

How To Use People's Core Psychological

© Street Hypnosis Publishing All Rights Reserved 1

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Welcome To The Hypnosis Masters Series

Meet This Month’s Master: Dr. Kevin Hogan

Dr. Kevin Hogan started his hypnotic career when he

At first his approach focused purely on the language for

So he began his research anew. This time he focused

Kevin's website is: KevinHogan.com/coverthypnosis

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Kevin: Thank you, Igor it’s nice to be here tonight.

Kevin: Twenty-two years now.

Then as time went on, I became very interested in persuasion, nonverbal

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Igor: Like the old school NLP big masters.

Those tapes influenced me and how I developed this non-profit organization,

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Igor: Medically trained in psychiatry, etc., for everyday hypnotherapists, stage

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I want to be my version of him. I want to be more myself, so much myself that

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I had a guy, a medical doctor as one of my students one time in a hypnosis

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Take an improv class at a college near you or wherever because no kidding,

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So here I am trying to explain syntactic ambiguity. There are no words to

Kevin: Wow. That’s interesting.

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This is what I studied. I am continually amazed, week by week, I read the

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♦ To make it easier for people, do you have a simple formula or

It doesn’t matter whether you’re using a subliminal or a super-liminal object in

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So he got me to change a behavior, so by doing that, I shifted a belief that

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Psychology of Persuasion, like on page 220 of the book or something, had an

We took the University of Wisconsin, River Falls; University of Washington,

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When I was training people in hypnosis to be trainers, we had sort of this

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