The Future of Marketing:

Six Visionaries Speak

seth GODIN
john HAGEL
gavin HEATON
aditya JOSHI
marc MATHIEU
jim STENGEL
A conversation with The Economist Intelligence Unit.

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Contents

03 How Marketers will win

09 Seth Godin:
Make things worth talking about

16 John Hagel:
Attract, assist and affiliate

24 Gavin Heaton:
To see five years ahead, look ten years behind

31 Aditya Joshi:
The modern marketer: Strategist, technologist, analyst

39 Marc Mathieu:
Find a truth and share it

44 Jim Stengel:
Marketing is at the centre of strategy

To help marketers prepare, Marketo commissioned The Economist Intelligence Unit to provide a
roadmap for the future – a future in which marketing is first and marketers play a critical role as
stewards of the customer journey. From organizational team design to the importance of engaging
customers on a truly personal and 1:1 level – The Economist Intelligence Unit has collected thoughts
and ideas from some of the brightest minds in marketing to give marketers the license to lead.

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How marketers magnitude of the changes in marketing
have been widely discussed. It is not
will win as clear, however, where marketing
will end up (and what marketers
Marketing is on the ascent. It has need to do to ensure that they aren’t
frequently led at big consumer products disintermediated by a small group
companies. Now its influence is of 20-something programmers).
growing everywhere: at B2B companies,
professional services firms, companies The Economist Intelligence Unit
dominated by engineering or logistics. spoke with six marketing visionaries
You can see marketing’s rise on business around the world and posed a
bestseller lists, on YouTube playlists, question: “The world of marketers
in the new brands that have broken today has changed drastically from
away and differentiated themselves, what it was ten years ago. What
and in the explosion of marketing start- will it be like in 2020? And what do
ups (and what investors are paying for marketers need to forge a winning
them). Marketing is becoming a more career path over the next five years?
powerful and resource-rich function
of business. In today’s digital world, Here are the 15 things they told us:
marketing is the function responsible for
creating and sustaining a long-lasting 1. It’s all about engagement.
relationship with the most important An engagement is a contract of
asset of any business – the customer. betrothal. It is the start of a personal
relationship expected to grow deeper
In an always-on world, consumer and endure over time. It requires
expectations are changing. As a result, listening, nurturing and care and
the nature of marketing itself is also feeding. It comes with expectations of
changing--data, digital, social, mobile, intimacy and trust. The engagement
analytics, real-time agility--these have that marketers seek is not so different.
all become part of the vocabulary
of numerous business articles and Seth Godin believes that marketers
conversation. Thus marketers need who are serious about engaging the
to shift their focus from pushing customer recognise that the most
messages at people to engaging valuable moments are when the
them in an ongoing conversation and customer is actually in touch with
relationship. The speed, direction and you: using your product, on the phone

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with you, reading your content. If you 3. Articulate your ambitious purpose.
are able to address your customers’ We all want to feel that our lives
needs during those moments--rather have meaning. We gravitate towards
than put them on hold while telling brands that help us find that meaning.
them how important their call is-- It could be a personal manifesto like
you’re going to get engagement. “Think different” or “Just do it.” It
could be an allusion to our common
Says Jim Stengel: “At P&G we used to humanity like Skype’s family portrait
say that if we measured our brands the series, which illustrated the growth of
way we measure healthy relationships a long-distance friendship between
with other people, it would lead to a two girls, each missing an arm. Or it
high market share. So think about your could be a global call to action like
relationships. Do you look forward to Wal-Mart’s sustainable supply chain
seeing that person? Do you care about initiative. Each of these companies
them? Do they share your values? Do built an engaged audience by finding
you speak well of them to others?” a big, ambitious theme and building a
long-running campaign around it. Each
2. Start at the start. also experienced sustained growth.
Marketers have always been treated
as the last and fastest runner in the 4. Agile will rule.
relay, brought in for the final leg to As recently as five years ago, most
sprint for the finish. The problem is marketing departments were set up only
that most races are already won or lost to conduct campaigns and launches.
before the last runner gets the baton. That is changing, especially at larger
Any marketer who has run a campaign companies with large numbers of
knows that marketers can sprint. But customers. It is not the old mode of
the best marketers are five-minute-mile planning a campaign, executing it,
marathoners who combine speed and analysing the results, learning from
stamina. They take the customer on a them and applying those lessons
journey. They need to show up at the to next year’s campaign. Marketers
starting line, when the people who run are increasingly running a real-time
the business are saying, “What should dialogue, constantly listening and
we make? Who should we make it instantly connecting in relevant ways.
for? How do we make it in such a way Consumers have an expectation of
that the story of our product is true?” immediacy. Like Visa at the World

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Cup, they are taking advantage 6. Make transparency a virtue.
of events when they happen and Unilever Senior Vice-president of
linking them to their brand. Marketing Marc Mathieu likes to say
that marketing “used to be about
A 24/7 mentality requires a different creating a myth and selling it and is
way of working. Marketing used to be now about finding a truth and sharing
an assembly line. Now it is more like a it”. It is difficult to sustain myths these
trading room that responds to the ebbs days; with a few clicks of the mouse,
and flows of the market as they occur. anyone can discover almost anything
Although marketers will always have and instantly circulate it to an audience
to manage the equivalent of an iPhone of millions. Companies confident
launch, there will also be day-in and enough to share the truth are choosing
day-out efforts to build a relationship to participate in a web-enabled show
with customers who in return reward and tell-- and consumers appreciate it.
you with a stream of purchases.
7. Integrate the old with the new.
5. Turn start-and-stop into In the minds of many, marketing and
start-and-continue. advertising are synonymous: the
The next five years will see the growth marketing budget exists to buy TV
of test-and-learn as standard operating spots and trade show booths. It is true
procedure. Campaign workflows are that marketers do far more than buy
still siloed today. Analytics comes ads now. A lot more. It is also true
up front, then there’s a big creative that consumers now rely more on
piece, the campaign is launched and peer-to-peer connections and less on
more analytics at the back end. Those messages directly from the companies.
distinct pieces need to be joined Marketers are creating journeys to guide
together into a more iterative workflow consumers and customers towards
that combines the creative and the a mutually desired outcome. But at
analytical in a collaborative process. the same time, marketing does run
Marketers are the stewards of significant the ad budget and those traditional
resources – iterating in real-time, expenditures have not gone away.
with real-time analytics about what
is working and what is not will allow
them to be true drivers of productivity.

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Bain’s Aditya Joshi points out that in can I help?” Too many marketers
many industries analog media like don’t understand what makes their
TV may decline in the next three to company preferred over others.
five years, but won’t fall by much. In
the consumer products industry, for 9. Harden the soft.
example, TV’s share of the marketing Of all the factors that drive engagement,
mix in 2020 should still be north of the most important may be a culture
40%. Marketers should not think in of customer centricity. Culture is often
terms of discarding traditional and mistakenly considered to be a soft
embracing digital. Instead, they concept. It is a big concept, but it is
should think about how to get both not a soft one: it can be broken down
to work together in an integrated and into a very specific set of values and
consistent way. If marketers do it right, activities that are mirrored in incentives,
window-shoppers become buyers and salaries and promotions. Customer
buyers become advocates and fans. engagement needs to play a central role
in the organisation’s culture. Otherwise
8. Get your own house in order. the business will not be sustainable.
An asset is an investment that
generates value in the form of return on 10. Keep up with the consumers.
investment (ROI). Engaged customers Enterprise technology has lagged
fit the definition of an asset, but consumer technology for over
marketers often complain that their a decade. Consumer behaviour
CFOs resist the idea of engagement changes faster than behaviour within
as an asset worth investing in. the organisation. In the world at
large, Facebook and Twitter enable
In fact, these marketers are wrong: communities to spontaneously form,
the problem is one of data, logic and sync up and take action. Marketers
presentation. Many marketers don’t fully have a responsibility to modify the
understand what drives engagement- organisation’s outreach based on
-and therefore they can’t present it changes in the outside world. At the
in a compelling way to the CFO. “If same time, those external shifts need
you can quantify engagement, any to be brought into the corporation.
CFO in the world will pay attention,” Marketing bridges the gap between
says Jim Stengel. And not just pay the lives of consumers and those
attention, but jump in and ask, “How of people in the organisation.

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11. Concerns over privacy are functions? Progressive marketers are
overwrought. starting to understand and embrace
The customers of Target, EBay and the need to set up cross-functional
Home Depot know all too well decision-making processes.
that privacy is important. At the
same time, and more relevant to 13. There is a formula for building trust.
marketers, the new generation of Companies collect data with every
digital natives has grown up seeing customer interaction. Most people don’t
the value in sharing everything. care about disclosing information if they
believe it will be used to help them. The
They want to share. They want concern is that the company will take
personalisation. They see the tradeoff advantage of the data to do something
between what they are giving up and not in their interest – sending ads,
what they are getting as positive. for instance, or giving the data to
Sharing personal information is “trusted partners” who may misuse it.
not going away. In fact, it will The solution is a series of small steps
become more widespread. of helpful actions. The customer
benefits. Trust grows. And ultimately
12. Learn to make decisions about the privacy concern goes away
making decisions. because you have demonstrated
Marketing no longer sits in a corner and that the data are being accumulated
runs campaigns; it interacts with almost for the benefit of the customer.
every part of the business, from IT to
customer service and logistics. To do 14. Keep the touches light.
their jobs effectively, marketers need to Imagine that you are browsing on a
be able to join up collaborative, cross- website. A box pops up and asks if
functional processes with functions you found what you are looking for.
that have objectives and report up If you say, “no,” it opens a window
through other parts of the business. and you find yourself talking to
customer service. If you say “yes,” it
That requires agreeing in advance what sends you to Amazon or Yelp! and
the decisions are and what criteria asks you to leave a positive review.
will guide the decisions. If there is a In theory, the interaction is positive.
purchase, who funds it? Who decides You are being helpful, trying to guide
on the vendor? What is the role of the customer and enlisting their help
marketing versus IT, finance and other if the experience pleases them. In

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fact, customers feel manipulated and Passion trumps everything
turned off. Instead, remember the Marketing processes, skills and
interaction and use that to be more technology will continue to evolve over
relevant with the next conversation. Just the next five years. Not every marketer
because you can automate something is ready for every change. But at the end
doesn’t mean you always should. of the day, those who want to adapt
and win have the power to do so.
15. Bridge left and right.
There is a lot of talk about political John Hagel argues that passion is
polarisation in the halls of government. the single element most critical to
Polarisation exists in marketing too. success in marketing. Passion enables
The influence of left-brained analytical executives to put themselves in the
hires is growing. Many creatives customer’s shoes and advocate for
feel pressured. The ideal marketing the customer inside the organisation.
organisation requires both sets of It is not always a comfortable role. It
abilities—and for these to work together requires confidence and courage. But
in an integrated fashion. “Very few in the end, passion determines whether
individuals have left- and right-brained or not a marketer is successful.
capabilities in the same depth and
strength,” says Bain’s Mr Joshi. “On e “If you have a passionate commitment
would need a modern-day Da Vinci. to make an impact on the customer
But you know how rare that is.” by being more and more helpful to
them, you will either develop the
A more practical answer is to create skills yourself or you will find ways to
a Da Vinci in the aggregate, hiring connect to the skills wherever they
different people with different skills who reside,” says Mr Hagel. “It may be in
combine to create a Da Vinci. That is other functions within the organisation.
the ideal marketing team – not right- It may be in third parties. If you have
brained or left-brained but both-brained the passion, you will find a way.”

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 Seth Godin:
Make things worth
talking about

Seth Godin writes about the post- Economist Intelligence Unit: Marketing
industrial revolution, the way ideas has changed so much in the past
spread, marketing, quitting, leadership five years. What do you think will
and most of all, changing everything. happen in the next five? What will the
He is the founder of squidoo.com, marketer’s mission look like in 2020?
and his blog is one of the most
popular in the world. He was hired Seth Godin: If we were talking about
by Yahoo! as vice-president of direct what is going to be the future of
marketing after selling them the start- the dried plum, we would have a
up Yoyodyne. In 2013, Mr Godin was straightforward conversation. Everyone
inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall can agree on what a dried plum is. Not
of Fame, one of three chosen for this everyone agrees on what marketing is.
honour. His latest book, “The Icarus So before I talk about where it’s going,
Deception”, argues that w have been we have to talk for at least a minute
brainwashed by industrial propaganda, about where it’s been so we understand
pushing us to stand out, not to fit in. that we’re starting from the same place.

For 100 years, marketing and advertising

was the same thing. The CMO didn’t
decide on the product line or pricing or
what the toxic waste policy should be.
Instead, the measure of marketing has
traditionally been, “How much money
are you spending on advertising?”

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Marketing is about everything TV ads are always sold out. And we’re
Only in the last 20 years have we seen going to see ever-more reliance
marketing change from spending by consumers on peer-to-peer
money to interrupt people with connections and less on what message
advertising to marketing everything they hear directly from the marketer.
you make and everything you say
that involves making a promise to Make things that matter
people about what they should expect EIU: So what are the most effective
when they do business with you. marketers going to be doing five years
from now? What do they need to
The problem is that a lot of marketers do now to make sure they don’t get
didn’t get that memo. And a lot of passed by as marketing changes?
marketers--mostly those who work
for companies built on advertising Seth Godin: The short answer is
mass products to mass audiences-- five words long: “Make things worth
want marketing to go back to what it talking about.” The longer answer is
was. And so when they see YouTube that the marketer now needs to be
come along, or they see Twitter come in charge of everything the company
along, they think “This is just like a does. And the ad agency isn’t the
magazine except the ads are free. last step of the process anymore;
This is just like television except the it needs to be the first step.
ads are free.” And those people have
been pretty generally disappointed You know the people who used to
with everything that’s happened spend all their time spinning products
recently because they’re still working when they’re released? They need
as if marketing equals advertising. to spend their time at the beginning.
They need to be saying, “What should
Here’s the answer to your question: I we make? How do we make it in such
think the next five years of marketing a way that the story of our product
are going to be just like the last five is true?” Look at Nike. Nike is not
years of marketing but more so. afraid to spend hundreds of millions
We’ll see the end of almost every of dollars on the products they make,
newspaper. We’ll see the crumbling not into the billboards that they rent.
of the TV-industrial complex in which

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A tag line is not enough enabling predictive analytics, feeding
EIU: So it sounds like there are two into marketing automation with a lot
kinds of marketers. There are marketers of personalisation. People call them
who cling to pushing products with channels, but broadcast media like
advertising and there are marketers billboards or TV ads were channels.
who are embedded in what the These seem like much more. How are
company makes and are pushing it they going to be affecting marketers?
towards what the consumer wants.
Seth Godin: Think about someone who
Seth Godin: That’s exactly right. goes to a new high school, think of all
Most marketers have come from the channels there are at the new high
an environment where everyone is school. There are the yearbook, the daily
selling exactly the same product. The announcements, the school newspaper,
way you won was with a clever tag people talking to each other at lunch.
line. This is the world of “Mad Men”. We can make a list of 1,000 ways the
Modern marketers say, “Well, of course people at school are finding things out.
Apple people are waiting in line to
hear Apple’s announcement because Act like who you want to be
they’re actually doing something new. But the new kid at school isn’t a brand
They’re not just spinning the old.” manager. The new kid at school isn’t
saying, “How do I own this channel, and
It’s a huge shift. Changes like this how do I own that channel?” The new
haven’t happened elsewhere in the kid at school is saying, “Who do I want
company. Accounting hasn’t changed. to be? Because if I act like the person
Product development hasn’t changed I want to be, the word will get out.”
much. Sales isn’t so different. Marketing
has been completely transformed. And so you can’t really think of a
channel as a choke point, where if
EIU: I’m interested to hear what you you spend some money you can
think about the multiplication and own that choke point. Instead, go in
fragmentation of channels. Ten years the opposite direction. All of these
ago Facebook had under a million new ways of communicating mean
users. Now it has over a billion, Twitter that the more you act a certain way,
has half a billion, even Pinterest is the more likely it is that the truth
approaching 100 million. And all will get out about who you are.
of them are generating big data,

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EIU: Isn’t the job of marketers Seth Godin: Their role is coming up
to push out their self-definition with an experience, an environment,
through all of the channels? a service, a product, that people
can’t help talking about, and then
Seth Godin: They can try, but it’s not consistently delivering on that.
working. Just call up the people at
Procter & Gamble or the people in Customers decide whether you’re real
the Republican or the Democratic Say you start a real boutique hotel.
Party and say, “How are you doing on Then you make sure the right people
pushing out the message you want are staying there in the first few weeks.
everyone to be saying?” And what they Word gets out among their circle of
brag about is, “Oh, look how great that friends, who talk to the next circle
Oreo thing was.” One Tweet got seen and the next, and the hotel is sold
by everyone during the Super Bowl. out. Or you can start a fake boutique
hotel, which Hyatt Hotel is trying to
But one tweet about Oreos didn’t sell a do. You skip all those steps and make
single extra Oreo. What marketers have it look like a boutique hotel. And
to understand is that mass marketing then you’re puzzled and surprised
was a brilliant and important way of when there isn’t a line out the door.
supporting mass manufacturing. It
was one of the key elements of the The reason there isn’t a line out the
growth of the UK and US economies. door is that the people you were
For 100 years mass marketing sat hoping to connect with can tell
right next to mass manufacturing. that it’s not a real boutique hotel.
But now it’s over. It is just over. Mass
manufacturing is over and mass EIU: What’s engagement marketing?
marketing is over. And you can do all How does it differ from other
sorts of things to try to get it to come ways of relating to customers?
back, but it’s not going to come back.
Seth Godin: Here’s an experience that
EIU: So if the marketer isn’t pushing we’ve all had. You call a big company.
out a message through those channels, You hear a recording that says, “Your
what is marketing doing with them? You call is very important to us, but due
say that word will get out. What’s the to unusually heavy call volume, we
marketer’s role in getting the word out? don’t have anyone to answer your

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call,” and they put you on hold for Seth Godin: I don’t buy that. Your
ten minutes. Then the person who premise is wrong. If you start listing
answers the phone is measured on successful companies, almost all
how fast they get you to hang up. of them are run by people who
do what I call marketing.
That’s the opposite of customer EIU: But all the parts of the company
engagement. This company spent a lot that engage with the customer or that
of time and money to set up a phone have customer-facing responsibilities
queuing system. Then when you talk don’t report to the marketer. How
to them, they don’t care enough to talk do marketers orchestrate those
back, or if they do talk back, they put customer touch points while they’re
someone in your face who has been not in charge of all those people?
programmed to be a cog in a machine.
Influence trumps authority
Treasure moments with customers Seth Godin: Nobody’s in charge of
If you’re serious about engaging the everyone. Even the CEO. Influence is
customer, you realise that the most way more important than authority.
valuable moments you can have are
when the customer is using your The first half of the answer is that
product, on the phone with you, you need to build influence. You gain
actually engaged with you. If we influence as you give up more credit
overinvest in that, or do what feels like and take on more responsibility.
overinvesting, we are far more likely to
lead to the other sorts of interactions The second half is that marketers need
that we can’t buy, that we can’t control, to make an effort to not sell out so
but that we need desperately to happen. cheap. What marketers usually do is
accept the budget, accept the product
EIU: Marketers have responsibility for and promise the world. That’s why they
every part of the company with which get fired so much. On average, the CMO
the customer comes into contact. gets fired every year and a half. Because
Yet they don’t have the authority to they make big promises and can’t keep
determine what happens there. They’re them. They’re unable to keep them
influencers. In fact, in some companies because they think advertising can save
that are dominated by engineering or the day, and it can’t. What I propose
operations, they struggle for influence. they do instead is refuse to market
products that they don’t believe in.

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The CMO needs to refuse to have their “I don’t want to be on the New York
team push work out the door for stuff Times Best Seller List anymore because
that doesn’t keep the story consistent it’s a false metric that’s usually gamed
and worth telling. Toyota let a worker and doesn’t represent the post-mass-
stop the whole assembly line because marketing world. Rather than ask for
the quality of a spark plug was off. That’s rating points or share of mind, I would
what marketers need to do. They need ask questions like “Who would miss me
to hit the button and say, “No, we’re if I was gone? With whom do I actually
not going do this anymore because the have permission to follow up? How
customer service people are letting us many people call us on the phone
down when they answer the phone” or asking when our new thing is going to
“We’re not going to do this anymore be ready?” Those questions show depth
because I’ve seen the waste going of feeling and concern. If you want to
into the river and I don’t want to be be meaningful, you can’t be too general.
responsible for marketing that brand.”
EIU: So you’ve got this asset called
Spinning for the wrong customer engagement. You’ve
cause is beneath you invested in it and built it up and
Once the CMO does this, everything you can measure it in various ways.
upstream will improve. And to the How would you talk to a CFO about
marketer who says to me, “But that? When he asks for the ROI, do
I can’t do that cause they won’t you think you could tell him?
listen,” I say, “Go work somewhere
else. Because if you’ve got talent, Seth Godin: When I invented e-mail
doing good spin for a company that marketing in 1990, I went to every
doesn’t get it is beneath you.” big company you can think of and
tried to sell them on what we had
EIU: How can you tell when a built. And they would say, “What’s
customer is engaged? What kinds the ROI?” Well, my first answer was
of tangible metrics can show the “What’s the ROI on that TV ad you
impact of customer engagement? ran last night? You don’t know. And
you’ve been running TV for years
Seth Godin: I don’t have a glib answer. because it feels safe. And you like the
Any mass metric is going to be false. fact that you can’t measure how well
I’ll give you an example: Six weeks it works because then you don’t have
ago I fired the New York Times. I said, to take the blame for it not working.”

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If you’re a really good direct marketer, Spreadsheets are not the answer
you make money for a while. But I EIU: Do you think the group that’s
think we’re moving into a post-direct racing to the top through customer
marketing world where we can’t engagement is growing compared with
measure ROI. But we can measure those who are racing to the bottom?
whether you are gaining market share
and profit because you’re making great Seth Godin: CEOs care a lot about
stuff. When everything is driven by stock price, and what they’re seeing
metrics you often end up in a race to again and again is that Sears is
the bottom, and the problem with the cratering because Sears was focused
race to the bottom is that you might 100% on spreadsheets, whereas a
win. Instead, some people decide to brand like Apple, which is a mass
race to the top--not just in pricing, but brand in the sense that they have big
in terms of the usefulness of what they market share, is hiring people from
make and how much fun it is to talk the larger consumer goods industry.
about it. Those people are doing great. They understand that in a retail
environment engagement matters
I think that’s the challenge of the more than giving people a coupon.
CMO. Put the spreadsheet away
and do some serious work to EIU: Thanks, Seth.
make stories worth telling.
Seth Godin: Good luck with
the rest of your interviews.

15
 John Hagel:
Attract, assist and affiliate

John Hagel III has more than 35 Economist Intelligence Unit: Marketing
years’ experience as a management has changed pretty dramatically in the
consultant, author, speaker and past five years. Where do you think
entrepreneur. He currently serves as it’s going to be five years from now?
co-chairman of the Silicon Valley-based
Deloitte LLP Center for the Edge. Mr John Hagel: Oh [chuckles], it’s definitely
Hagel is also involved with a number heading for a major transformation. If
of other organisations, including the you think it has changed over the past
World Economic Forum, Singularity five years, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
University, the MIT Media Lab, the Santa Part of it is the technology--the
Fe Institute and the Aspen Institute. evolution of the Internet, digital, mobile
He is credited with inventing the term and so on. But the more fundamental
“infomediary” in the book, “Net Worth” part is the fact that over time more and
(co-authored with Marc Singer), more people and companies are going
published by the Harvard Business to be competing for our attention. If
School Press in 1999. The most recent you’re a marketer, you’re going to have
of his seven books is “The Power of to do some fundamental rethinking
Pull”, published by Basic Books. of your approach to marketing.

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The three I’s… Ultimately that leads to a third “A”,
One way to frame it is to say that which is “affiliate”. Instead of one-
we’re moving from push to pull. to-one marketing, the affiliate idea
The traditional marketing model suggests bringing in any and all
has been driven by what I call the participants that could be helpful
“three I’s”: intercept, isolate and to the prospective buyer at relevant
insulate. “Intercept” means getting points in time. It’s about creating a
people’s attention wherever they are broader ecosystem of participants who
and whenever you need them. My can be more and more helpful to the
favorite example is video screens customers you’re trying to reach.
above the urinals in the men’s room.
Talk about a captive audience. That’s a very different model that goes
against the most basic assumptions
First you intercept. Then you “isolate”. of traditional push-based marketing.
It’s you and me and nobody else, I’ve
got you and I can get my message to EIU: That’s a pretty radical change.
you without interference or distraction. How would it happen?
Finally, you want to “insulate” people
over time-- create a walled garden John Hagel: The market will force us
where it’s just you and me forever. to change. The traditional approach
of push-based marketing is not
EIU: But people won’t stand for going to work as well as it has in the
that anymore. That’s going to annoy past when there are more and more
them and drive them away. things competing for our attention.
It’s going to be a painful migration.
…versus the three A’s Companies are going to have to
John Hagel: That’s right. The three walk away from a method that got
I’s are increasingly challenged. So let them where they are today.
me pose an alternative. Instead of the
three I’s, think about three A’s: attract, Engage or die
assist and affiliate. “Attract” means EIU: And if they don’t?
motivating people to seek you out, to
find you. “Assist” means finding ways John Hagel: They’ll be displaced
to help people, both before and after by entrants who will come in
a purchase, to get more value and and engage the attention of the
use from the product or service. people they’re trying to reach.

17
EIU: What do you think the most Waiting to be asked is not enough
effective marketers will be doing Assistance is not just waiting for the
five years from now? What should customer to ask you something; it’s
marketers be doing now to make being proactive and becoming in effect
sure they’re in that group? a trusted advisor to the customer
who says, “You know, I have some
John Hagel: Technology is a key information about you and based on
catalyst for these changes, so marketers that information I can give you some
are going to have to become more recommendations that are going to
and more focused on the Internet to be really valuable to you and save
connect and build relationships. The you time and money.” That requires
core of the marketing budget used a different level of skill than waiting
to be traditional media; now that will for the phone to ring and taking
migrate to the periphery. And what used an order. It’s being thoughtful.
to be on the periphery will become
more and more central to how you The risk is that if you misuse the
pursue these pull-based models. data and bombard the customers
Mobile phone technology will be very with unwanted recommendations,
important. And we’ll have to figure they’re gone. The challenge is how
out how to co-ordinate activity across to be helpful in modest ways initially
a large number of participants to and use that as a basis to build trust,
build relationships with the customer get permission to access more data
and ensure that they’re getting the and become even more helpful.
value at the appropriate time.
One of the things that I recommend
EIU: How will the way marketers is using a different set of metrics. We
use data change? all know traditional metrics like ROA
and ROI. The new metrics measure
John Hagel: The Internet allows you what I call “return on attention”
to collect rich records of interactions, rather than return on assets.
which can lead to much more insight
about customers and their needs in EIU: So the numerator is how much
real time. That requires deep skills in it costs to get the attention of a
terms of taking what is usually not customer. What’s the denominator?
very clean or comprehensive data and
finding patterns that can be helpful.

18
John Hagel: It is the economic value just by selling you more products,
of that attention, which is the value but also by selling the data that I’ve
of the relationship that you can accumulated about you, the customer,
expect based on that attention. It may to as many third parties as I can.
be a small number, but the cost of
attracting that customer attention is Privacy is different under pull
also low under the pull-based model. Pull is different. With pull, you’re serious
about being more and more helpful
The new ROI to the customer. Your focus is on,
EIU: Are there any other new “How do I take this data that I have
metrics that you recommend? acquired through prior interactions
with the customer or third parties and
John Hagel: The other measure is use that to be helpful?” Most people
ROI, but it’s not return on investment. don’t care about disclosing information
It’s return on information. It’s starting if they are confident it will be used
to track carefully how much it to help them. Their concern is “Are
costs to accumulate information you going to take advantage of this
about a customer and divide that data to do something that’s not in my
by what I can earn by using that interest?” or “Are you going to give
information more effectively. this data to somebody else who will
misuse it?” That’s the privacy concern.
Both metrics are central to pull-based
marketing. Both help executives You overcome this by taking action
start to think about a pull-based in small steps. You think, “What small
versus a push-based approach. steps using existing data can I take to
demonstrate how helpful I can be to
EIU: To make your initial a set of customers?” That builds trust.
recommendations, you need They think, “They had information
information about the customer. But the about me and were able to give me
customer may not want to give it to you. advice that I hadn’t thought of.”
How do you deal with privacy concerns?
That’s ultimately going to be the
John Hagel: I think the privacy key to addressing the privacy issue:
concerns are more of an issue with demonstrating through action that
the push-based model. I have an the data you’re accumulating is
incentive to generate revenue not for the benefit of the customer.

19
EIU: How would you define the EIU: You can certainly put yourself
concept of engagement marketing into the story. That’s a key to
or customer engagement? good storytelling: a character that
the listener can identify with.
John Hagel: This idea of anticipating
needs and getting permission to make It’s not about you
recommendations is one level of pull- John Hagel: You can use your
based marketing. A further dimension is imagination and figure out how you
inspiring people to act and motivating might have acted, but the story is not
them to learn. That’s engagement. about you. In contrast, a narrative is
open-ended, about some opportunity,
The power of narrative and whether the listener gets the benefit
EIU: How do you get engagement? depends on the listener’s choices. The
resolution has not yet occurred. You’re
John Hagel: One way is to move talking about some opportunity that
from stories to narratives. We’re all hasn’t yet materialised and the ability
familiar with the notion of stories as a to embrace this opportunity hinges on
powerful way to attract attention and the listener’s actions. A narrative is a
create emotional engagement. But I call to action. It says, “How it ends is
make the case that there is an even up to you. What are you going to do?”
more powerful approach, which is
what I call “narratives”. Most people It’s a different approach. I don’t deny the
use these terms interchangeably. power of stories, but millions of people
have given their lives for narratives-
EIU: I certainly do. How -religious narratives, revolutionary
are they different? narratives, social narratives of various
types--that are so powerful they
John Hagel: Stories are self-contained: move people to actually sacrifice
beginning, middle, resolution. the most precious thing, their life,
Something happened, here’s how. in order to influence the ending.
A story is about me, the storyteller,
or some other people over there. Very few companies have harnessed
It’s not about you, the listener. the power of narrative. Apple
is one. The narrative of Apple’s
early days was captured in a tight
slogan: “Think different.”

20
EIU: What is it that gives John Hagel: They say, “This is great.
that slogan its power? I’m going to call my PR department
and my marketing people and get
John Hagel: The short form of the them to write me a narrative.”
narrative was the idea that generations
of technology had forced us to become Narratives don’t come from PR
cogs in the wheel, standardised units, But narratives don’t work that way. Your
numbers in a big machine. For the PR people may be able to come up with
first time we now have technology a good story. But with narratives you’ve
that enables each of us to achieve got to demonstrate day-to-day your
our unique potential. But this is not own commitment to that narrative. One
a given. It is not going to happen of the things that made “Think different”
automatically. It requires you to think so powerful was the examples of
differently. Are you going to think Wozniak and Jobs. Those two guys were
differently? The choice is yours. the perfect examples of people thinking
different and expressing their unique
The narrative wasn’t about Apple. individuality. They lived the narrative.
It was about the people that Apple How is a big company going to live a
was trying to speak to. It was a narrative that will engage and motivate
call to action: “Think different.” the audience they’re trying to reach?

EIU: Apple is almost a religion. EIU: One of the other challenges

that marketers always face is getting
John Hagel: That’s how many people people in the company to keep the
perceive it. Few companies have been focus on the customer--the outside-
able to create the inspiration, motivation in perspective. You said that the
and engagement that Apple has. A narrative is about the listener, not the
lot of it has to do with the narrative speaker. That has to be difficult for
Apple communicated every day. executives whose first impulse is to tell
customers how great their company is.
EIU: So when you make your pitch
about the power of narrative, how John Hagel: I also see that when I
narratives are more motivating speak to executives about narratives.
and inspirational than stories, They often have this reaction, “Oh,
how do businesspeople react? we have a narrative. We came from
humble beginnings. We overcame

21
incredible challenges. We did awesome John Hagel: From an operations
things. And our story is open-ended, viewpoint, I see three big changes.
because who knows what kinds of First, finding better ways to integrate
awesome things are yet to come?” technology with marketing initiatives.
But the problem with that narrative, Second, learning how to identify
of course, is it’s not about the relevant third parties--influencers or
people you’re trying to reach. potential affiliates, for instance–and
motivate them to get onboard your
EIU: You’re asking the audience to platform and find ways to help them
sit there in wonder and awe at all become more helpful to customers.
the amazing things you’ve done. It’s a job of orchestration. Third, getting
And of course buy your products, up to speed with the analytics around
which is the unstated goal here. big data is going to become more and
more critical. My experience is that
Do something extraordinary most marketing departments have
John Hagel: The narrative is a very limited capability on that front.
call to action that says, “You have
an opportunity to do something EIU: How is the skill set of
extraordinary in your life, but marketers going to change? Either
you’ve got to make choices and the type of person who works in
take action that go far beyond the marketing or people who bridge
purchase of anyone’s products.” marketing and other functions?

EIU: Let’s get back to nuts and bolts for

a minute. How do you see marketing
operations changing over the next five
years? How the function is organised,
the skills marketers are going to
need, budgets, that kind of thing.

22
If you have the passion,
you’ll get the skills
John Hagel: I think it’s less about skills
and more about passion. Ultimately
what we need in marketing departments
are people who are really passionate
about the customer and can cross
the table and put themselves in the
customer’s shoes and say, “What does
the customer need and how can I help
the customer get it, wherever it resides?”
or “How can I motivate the customer
through a narrative that identifies an
opportunity that’s meaningful to the
customer?” or “How can we act in
ways that will again communicate
and demonstrate that narrative?”

At the end of the day passion trumps

skills. If you have a passionate
commitment to make an impact on
the customer by being more and
more helpful to them, you’ll either
develop the skills yourself or you will
find ways to connect to the skills
wherever they reside. It may be in other
functions within the organisation. It
may be in third parties. If you have
the passion, you will find a way.

EIU: I like the sound of that.

John Hagel: It’s been

great talking to you.

23
 Gavin Heaton:
To see five years ahead,
look ten years behind

Gavin Heaton is the founder of the Economist Intelligence Unit: Your

Disruptor’s Handbook, a network website is called “Servant of Chaos”
of business professionals who help and your URL is servantofchaos.com.
businesses unlock the potential How did you come up with that name?
of disruptive business models and
technologies. Previously, he was general Gavin Heaton: I used to work for a
manager of AskU, a mobile survey consulting company and I headed
platform that was granted the Australian up communications during a merger.
Business Award for product innovation. Everything was changing every single
Over the past 15 years, he has day. We set up some Yahoo! accounts
developed digital strategies for some of for instant messaging, and the account
the world’s leading companies–from that I set up was serving the chaos
IBM to Fujitsu–and on the agency side, and not really managing or controlling
leading the global digital strategy for it. The name stuck. It became the
McDonald’s. Mr Heaton is co-publisher name of my blog. And it still is.
of the marketing book series,” Age
of Conversation”, and works with EIU: It’s a metaphor for how a lot
young people as president of a local of people, including marketers,
non-profit organisation, Vibewire. feel about the world we’re in now,
where we’re not guiding the future
but trying to pick our way through
it as it comes at us a little too fast.

Gavin Heaton: That’s exactly

how I think of it.

24
EIU: Tell me a bit about EIU: Imagine you’re in 2020. Some
your background. marketers are firing on all cylinders
and some are struggling. What’s the
Gavin Heaton: I’ve worked on both difference between the two groups?
the client side and the agency side of
marketing, mostly for large enterprises, Gavin Heaton: I asked a futurist friend
most recently big technology of mine how he guesses future trends.
companies like SAP and IBM. I had He said, “When change is accelerating,
a stint as the head of digital strategy to look five years into the future you
for the agency that looked after have to look ten years into the past,
McDonald’s. We ran happymeal.com and that will give you a sense of how
for four or five years and some digital much things have changed.” So let’s
strategies for McDonald’s globally. look back to 2005. That’s our baseline.
I spent about a year-and-a-half or We’ll take what we’ve learned since then
two years working with a marketing and use it to predict it out to 2020.
analyst agency called Constellation
Research. Digital marketing and digital The power of PANDA
transformation are my areas of specialty. I think we’re in a part of the cycle where
what was old becomes new again and
EIU: That’s a diverse portfolio. You’ve what we think is important now will
got B2B IT services with SAP and become more transactional. I came
IBM. You’ve got the agency side, the up with an acronym, PANDA, to talk
analyst side and pure consumer side about how marketing is changing.
in your work with McDonald’s.
The “P” is for “purpose”. There was a
Gavin Heaton: Yes. And then over time when brands stood for something.
the last 12 to 18 months, I’ve been That’s coming back. We need to give
looking at start-ups and how they our customers a reason to engage
have started working in a more agile with us. Purpose is going to be a
way. I’ve been running a couple of driving force over the next five years.
corporate start-ups for PwC as an
internal venture project manager. “A” is for “analytics”, which sounds
obvious, except we need to apply the
“A” to the “P”--the “analytics” to the
“purpose”. We need to look beyond
corporate social responsibility to

25
analyse how the social impact plays out. The “A” is “art”. I think we’re going to
Market protocols are creating shared start seeing less technical stuff. We’re
values, shared space, and we need to going to see how our creative thoughts
understand where our brands fit within really handle digital in a creative way.
that space. And that’s going to have to It’s going to be more fun and more
be driven by analytics; you have to know interesting, and the combination of the
most stuff that we don’t know right now. artistic and the technical will get us to
a more emotional and engaging place.
The “N” is for “networks”. Networks
are powerful, as we’re seeing in the Earn a seat at the biggest table
rise of the social web. And businesses EIU: We hear a lot about the marketing-
are part of those networks. We need led future, about how marketing is
to understand what the networks becoming a more critical function
are, which technologies join them because relationships with customers
together and where they overlap. are what will differentiate companies
in the future. But I don’t get the sense
The “D” is “digital”. I read a forecast that marketing is currently considered
the other day that 75% of marketing any more critical than other functions.
spend will be digital in the next It’s all over the place. In some places
two to three years. Digital doesn’t it’s important, in some places it’s
necessarily mean social; social has just ignored. Do you agree with the notion
been the DNA of how we do things. that marketing is going to become
That digital connection, whether it more important across the board?
is Internet of things, whether it is
devices, whether it is a wearable, Gavin Heaton: I do. We’ve heard
those digital networks are going to for years that we need to have a
play a part in helping us understand seat at the table. That’s the table in
who and where our customers are. the boardroom, not the one in the
CFO’s office. And the interesting
thing is that thanks to the power of
analytics that we’ve been given, we
can actually start to understand the
impact marketing has on the business,
rather than these fuzzy metrics like

26
reach and frequency and so on. We’ve Gavin Heaton: In the start-up world
actually got a great deal of power you learn that you need to start small in
that comes from understanding how order to understand and measure what’s
marketing’s levers affect the bottom happening. And only then do you think
line, generate revenue, or deliver return about how to apply those teachings to
on investment in marketing. That is other disciplines within our business.
hugely powerful. As we understand the For example, at SAP the community
“A”, we come to have a lot of leverage. function was seen as outreach to
developers. But it wasn’t really seen
The shift has been gradual. It’s starting as a marketing-led function, and it
to gain momentum. But it requires wasn’t seen as anything that useful to
us to rethink things that we do and our organisation. It was a fairly small
try to earn leads and revenues and part of the company. There were 5,000
profits rather than just sitting back and people and it was started by five or six.
talking about creating brand value or
reach or page views. Marketers need It grew fast. In five to ten years it went
to earn a relationship that results in from having a few hundred members
dollars reported back to the board. to having millions of members. And
Analytics allows us to do that. then they grasped the downstream
impact. You could count the number
Start small and simple to grasp of questions being answered through
the big and complex the community forums and see that
EIU: Marketing and sales often fight those answers decrease the number
over revenue attribution. And that of calls to the call centre. You’ve got
has its roots in a bigger idea that no quantifiable value. It’s not revenue,
single function is really responsible but it does affect costs in a big way.
for revenue, for profitability, or for The savings were in a completely
any of the big metrics that investors different part of the company.
pay attention to. Everybody plays Understanding the flows of the impact
a role. How do you solve that and value across an organisation is
puzzle? How do you get to some really challenging. But if you do the
kind of shared understanding of hard work, you can get to the value.
marketing’s contribution? Or are we
still going to be fighting in 2020?

27
EIU: Could you talk a bit about Gavin Heaton: It’s not difficult to grasp;
how customer engagement it’s difficult to do. Think about the
differs from traditional ways call centre example. Here in Australia,
of relating to customers? we have a big telecommunications
company called Telstra. Years ago they
Gavin Heaton: How you measure started doing outreach with Twitter,
engagement differs for audiences. If and they were getting into all sorts of
your business model is about selling trouble because they were looking for
stuff online, you need to get some mentions of their brand on Twitter,
circulation and velocity on the website. and then they were responding by
You could do that through social saying, “Here’s our phone number.
means; it could be interaction-based. Why don’t you give us a call?” And they
It could be as simple as page views. were wondering why everyone hated
Or it could be more complicated. them and why they were getting a
It could be about how we drive an lot of abuse on social networks. I was
online connection to an in-store chatting with them and I said, “Look,
connection point or a purchase. Or to be honest, it’s because you don’t
you could use a membership-based understand the dimensions of this
strategy. The engagement number channel, the resolution channel. The
is a tricky one, because it does need reason that they’re venting on Twitter
to be understood in the context of is because they’re not getting through
your business and community. on the other channels. So you have to
own that process, own that customer
Easy to understand, hard to do and own it through the resolution.”
EIU: There’s this idea that engagement
is an asset that you invest in, and They ended up opening up a customer
you can measure the ROI of your call centre based entirely on Twitter. And
investment. We’re used to investing things started to turn around for them.
in physical assets, so some people Last week I was speaking with a Telstra
are uncomfortable with it. Is it hard customer who said, “I rang the Telstra
to get across the idea of investing call centre, and I was on hold for 50
in engagement and measuring minutes and got disconnected and had
the ROI of that investment? to call back.” And I said, “Why don’t you
just tweet them, because they respond
quickly there?” And sure enough, within
15 minutes, it was all sorted out.

28
Conversation must have a purpose Gavin Heaton: Yes, we’re getting
The problem is often that businesses better. Not in every case. Sometimes
look at engagement as just having our conversations can be clunky
a conversation, rather than having and embarrassing, like hanging out
a conversation for a reason. They with your uncle. But sometimes we
often forget that customers expect discover that we’re having a good
a commercial discussion; it’s not like time. As we lose our fears of these
they want to be our friend after all. digital channels, as we get better at
The conversation has to be about using them, we start to understand
improving the customer experience how people like to be engaged.
or giving a demo or getting a
discount. It’s a conversation for a Get a license from your customers
commercial or transactional purpose. EIU: What other challenges are
marketers going to be facing in 2020?
That doesn’t mean it can’t be engaging.
In fact, if it could be a bit fun, that Gavin Heaton: In Australia, in the
would be fantastic. Having a fun mining industry, we have this concept
conversation for a commercial purpose of the license to operate. It’s granted
makes the link between engagement by the government. But there’s also a
and monetisation. If you do those license granted by consumers and the
two things, then engagement can be community. If the community doesn’t
measured and you will also have a like what you’re doing, they will just
downstream impact on your financials. walk away. We saw this three years ago
That’s what we need to be able to do. when teenagers walked away from
MSN en masse. There was a three-
EIU: Do you think marketers are month period where teens started to
getting better at engaging customers? move to Facebook, and the way Gen
Are companies getting better? Y engaged online changed overnight.

29
First they went to Facebook and they Choose one but be ready to switch
saw their parents join Facebook. Their EIU: In terms of budgets, it sounds
grandparents. Very uncool. Then there like you have to have a stake in
was a little bit of Twitter, not much, and all the channels and be able to
then there was a migration to SnapChat. move very quickly if necessary.
I saw something today that said, You can’t overinvest in just one.
“70% of Australian students are using
SnapChat.” It’s massive and growing. Gavin Heaton: It comes down to
That’s our challenge: to be in the analytics. We need to have a much
spaces where our audiences are and stronger grasp of usage in all of
understand that they will leave us if we these channels, because we can’t be
don’t work with them and understand everywhere all at once. We don’t need
their needs, not just around transactions, to be if our audiences aren’t there,
but around our society as well. and not every audience is going to be
EIU: So you need to master all of in every channel. But understanding
these channels and be as agile where they are, their digital footprint,
and flexible as your audience is. when the train is leaving the station
When they move, you move. and being able to move fairly quickly,
that’s essential. And analytics gives
Gavin Heaton: Absolutely. us that power. Get your dashboards
operating, watch the trends and get
creative when things start to change.

Economist Insights: Thanks, Gavin.

Gavin Heaton: Thank you. I’m looking

forward to seeing all of the interviews.

30
 Aditya Joshi:
The modern marketer:
Strategist, technologist
and analyst

Aditya Joshi is a partner in Bain’s Economist Intelligence Unit: What

Customer Strategy and Marketing do you do at Bain, Aditya?
practice. He advises on strategy
and marketing effectiveness in the Aditya Joshi: I’m part of the customer,
financial services, consumer products, strategy and marketing practice and
retail, media, and technology and lead the marketing excellence area. I
telecoms industries. Mr Joshi is help clients become more effective
also part of the Financial Services and efficient with their marketing. In
practice, where he focuses on the that capacity, I’ve helped companies
payments, wealth and investment in a number of verticals get more
management and retail banking sectors. bang for their marketing buck.
He has deep experience in business
strategy development, innovation EIU: Both B2B and B2C?
and new product development,
customer acquisition and retention, Aditya Joshi: That’s right.
and salesforce effectiveness.
EIU: What is the marketing landscape
going to look like five years from now?
Aditya Joshi: Unless you’ve been living
under a rock, the big secular forces
affecting marketing are pretty clear.
First, the rise of digital media and
channels. They’re easier to target and
they’re where consumers want to be
engaged now. Second, the ways big
data and advanced analytics are helping
to better target customers, personalise

31
offers, measure how well they’re doing Separate out the noise
and adapt accordingly. Number three is EIU: That’s where the data
the explosion in marketing technologies and analytics come in.
that at least hold the promise of
transforming the marketing process. Aditya Joshi: That’s one of the places,
yes. Marketers are drowning in data, but
That’s the 30,000-foot level. not all data is created equal. There’s a
Once you zoom in, though, the lot of noise masquerading as data. Many
reality is more complex. marketers are struggling with how to
separate the good data from the bad,
It’s true that digital and mobile fill in the gaps and, most importantly,
are ascending. Whether it’s online generate meaningful insights from
advertising or social mobile, those the data using advanced analytics.
channels are taking a bigger share of the
marketing mix. But traditional channels That brings up also the fact that even
like TV are still alive and kicking. We’ve the most sophisticated analytics are
done some recent research that still backward-looking. They help
suggests TV’s share of the marketing make sense of the past. But given the
mix should remain north of 40%. TV’s magnitude of change we’re seeing
share may decline a bit in the next three in terms of new channels, customer
to five years, but not by much, and it’s behaviour and technologies, historical
certainly not going away. Traditional data can quickly become outdated.
media is still very much with us. There’s a danger of fighting the last war.

So at least for the next five years, EIU: That’s now. What about
it’s not a question of discarding five years from now?
traditional and embracing digital.
The trick is how to get both to work Aditya Joshi: Digital will capture a
together in an integrated way. bigger share of the marketing mix.
Today it’s around 40%. In five years
it will be the majority, and 60-70%
in industries where the product is
digital or customers are digital in their
behaviour. But in a lot of industries,
including consumer products, analog
media like TV will still be big. The

32
trick will be how to mesh traditional and use those lessons to influence next
and digital media. Those teams work year’s campaign. In the next five years
separately now. They need to work test-and-learn will become embedded
together and build a consistent in marketing work. You will create a bit
strategy. Marketers are still going to of content, put it out there, get real-
have to wrestle with that in five years. time feedback from customers and put
out the next little bit. People are calling
Look back to look forward this agile marketing. The idea comes
EIU: So the future will be like the from the software world. Google does
present, but the forces that we are it. So do other companies where agile
seeing today will be further advanced? software development is in their DNA:
put out some stuff, test it and improve it
Aditya Joshi: There will be some in a continuous test-and-learn process.
changes. Take analytics. One of That’s how marketing will be done too.
the biggest and most progressive
marketers has successfully married EIU: You’re keeping up with
backward-looking analytics with events in close to real time.
forward-looking test-and-learn.
Until now, test-and-learn has been The risks of a long cycle
a bit of a sideshow, outside the main Aditya Joshi: Exactly. And that’s
activities of creating campaigns. important because behaviour and
channels are changing. A long cycle
EIU: Test-and-learn? As in A/B testing? increases the risk that consumers
have moved on to the next thing
Aditya Joshi: It can be A/B testing, and your campaign won’t be
multivariate testing, all sorts of effective. Social media is a good
testing. The point is that companies example. It’s changing all the time.
doing test-and-learn treat it as
separate from the main activities EIU: The CMO function has been
like creating content, creating neglected in a lot of companies
campaigns, rolling out campaigns. in the past, but it seems to be
increasingly critical. Do you
That’s going to change. In the traditional think the CMO’s prominence
model there is a long creative cycle. and importance will continue to
You plan a campaign, execute it, see grow over the next five years?
how it runs, analyse it, learn something

33
Aditya Joshi: Sure. Bigger budgets, of finance? Who has what decision-
more responsibility. And more making rights? Progressive marketers
bridges between marketing and are starting to understand and embrace
other functions. Senior marketers are the need to set up cross-functional
realising that a lot of critical marketing decision-making processes.
decisions no longer sit neatly within
the four walls of marketing. They’re Yes, CMOs will have a lot more
shared with other functions. responsibility. Their visibility, their
profile, the profile of the marketing
Take marketing technology, for example. organisation--all are going to increase.
That’s a decision now shared between Some of the roles will change too. But
marketing and IT. In many organisations, it’s going to be critical for marketing to
the decision to buy a particular piece collaborate and be explicit about how to
of marketing technology falls in a make big decisions across boundaries.
no-man’s land between functions.
Strategist, analyst, technologist
One thing that distinguishes EIU: Could you talk a bit about how
marketing leaders is the ability to set roles will change? Marketing ops used to
up collaborative, cross-functional be a neglected area. With the emphasis
processes. Even before a decision is on technology, data and analytics,
made, there needs to be agreement it’s becoming the core of marketing.
on how the decision will be made. It What skills will they need? How will
sounds prosaic but it’s really important: their budget allocations change?
you’ve got to agree in advance what
the decision is, what criteria will guide Aditya Joshi: When you talk about skills
the decision, and who will play what and roles, it’s important to distinguish
role in the decision process. So when between the marketing organisation
buying marketing technology, you and individuals in marketing. At most
need to agree on the decision criteria organisations, marketing has historically
upfront. You’ll also have to figure out been a creative function that focuses
roles. What’s the role of marketing? on building the brand by developing
What’s the role of IT? What’s the role and executing campaigns. Those
skills are still going to be very critical.
The core of marketing is still telling
a story that wins over customers.

34
But three new roles are going to The key thing to remember about all of
become more and more important. these new roles is that a more analytical
approach to creating, publishing and
The first I would call out is strategist. distributing content is going to become
Given the furious rate of change, increasingly critical in a world where
marketing needs to understand consumers are setting the terms
the business priorities in terms of for how they want to be engaged.
segments, product lines, markets. The old interruptive push marketing
It also means knowing the role won’t be as effective anymore.
that marketing needs to play in
advancing the business strategy. EIU: So CMOs need to attract people
with strategic, analytic and technocratic
The second role is analyst. Marketing intelligence to a function that has
needs people with the skill set and traditionally been creative. Do you find
capabilities to take unstructured that combination of abilities in the same
data from many sources, come up people? I don’t think you do. A creative
with the right hypotheses, find the type can use a spreadsheet, but that’s
insights and translate those into as far as it goes. It seems like there’s
business and marketing implications. a growing schism within marketing.
Part of this is bringing in data
scientists and statisticians who Aditya Joshi: I totally agree. And that’s
understand marketing and can act why I made the distinction between
as the experimenters and analysts. the organisation and the individual.
The organisation needs to have a
The third role is technologist. There multifaceted personality. You can’t
is a huge portfolio of technology expect that from most individuals.
solutions out there to solve marketing Very few people have left- and right-
problems. You need people who can brained capabilities in the same depth
help you choose. They need to straddle and strength. Essentially, what you
marketing and IT. People talk about the would need is a modern-day Da Vinci.
chief marketing technologist and that is But you know how rare that is.
becoming more and more common.

35
The power of many at the back end. You’ve got to break
EIU: But you can create a Da Vinci that up into a more iterative workflow
in the aggregate. You hire different where left- and right-brained people
people with different skills who work together. Find people who are
combine to create a Da Vinci. That’s good at collaborating and champion
your ideal marketing team. them, make role models out of them.

Aditya Joshi: That’s right. The The fashion industry is a good example
organisation as a whole can’t be of this. At Gucci a few years ago there
just right-brained or left-brained. was a great partnership between the
The organisation has to be both- creative fashion designer Tom Ford and
brained, which happens only when the business guy Domenico De Sole.
you can get both groups to work No one is going to be an expert in both
together effectively. That requires a but you need left-brained people who
leader who sponsors and champions understand how they can be helped by
the notion of getting both kinds of the right-brained folks and vice versa.
personalities working together. That
is easier said than done, because A left-brained person might be great
the leader is most likely either with data analytics. But that’s where
left-brained or right-brained. they might stop. The right-brained
person comes in and says, “Okay,
EIU: Traditional marketers who here’s how I would use that insight
work in engineering-dominated to change messaging, positioning,
companies often become frustrated how we go to market and what we
because they feel that their creative say to customers.” That’s where the
intelligence doesn’t get sufficient data analysis has real value. The left-
respect. And I’m sure the same is true brain analysis gets you to the 70 or
of engineers working in ad agencies. 80 yard line and the right-brained
person gets you over the goal line.
Turn collaborators into heroes
Aditya Joshi: It’s a difficult problem.
The marketing workflow is very siloed
today. You’ve got analytics up front,
then you’ve got a huge creative piece
of the workflow, the campaign is
launched and then more analytics

36
Get buy-in at the top and on the line pull marketing. The idea is creating
Another part of the narrative is content that has value to the customer.
making sure your organisation is Traditionally, marketers would shower
ready for it. Do you have the right customers with messages that they
sponsorship throughout the marketing might or might not want. Engagement
organisation? If a marketing technology marketing is the delivering of content
is championed by the CMO but you that even off the shelf is going to add
haven’t got the buy-in from the front- some value--help them think about
line marketers who will use it, that their problem in a more sophisticated
should be a warning signal. If you way, frame their choices, offer
don’t change the marketing process recommendations that are agnostic
in order to use the technology, to a particular product push.
that’s another kind of warning signal
because anachronistic processes get That’s where you start. Then you can
in the way. So you either won’t use the build up to a discussion of the merits
technology or it will be underutilised of your product versus others. But
because you haven’t fixed the process. engagement marketing is first and
foremost rooted in the needs of the
Finally, you need to make sure you customer and the business problem
have the skills to use the technology. he faces. If you’re able to do that,
Will you need training? Do you need you’re going to get attention.
a training budget? You’re going to see
more and more marketing budgets EIU: What are the economic benefits
shift towards enablers like technology of engagement marketing compared
and analytics and, importantly, with traditional marketing?
towards training. Certainly from a
media perspective, you’ll continue Provide value to get conversions
to see a shift towards digital. Aditya Joshi: The customer sees you as
a provider of value that goes beyond the
EIU: What’s your definition of customer product itself. Ultimately, you get more
engagement or engagement marketing? consideration, more conversions, and
that has economic value. Also, if you do
Aditya Joshi: People use different it well, people pass on your content to
terms that are somewhat related-- others. Word-of-mouth referrals have
content marketing, inbound marketing, much more value than paid advertising

37
or traditional push messages. The word- The three-stage funnel
of-mouth economics of engagement EIU: Who is doing a good job in IT?
marketing are considerable.
Aditya Joshi: I can’t disclose the
EIU: How do you measure that names of clients, of course, but a
engagement? Can you use the usual couple of the big enterprise software
funnel metrics used in lead generation? companies are making great strides.
They’ve gotten marketing and sales
Aditya Joshi: Certainly some of the to work more closely together in an
traditional metrics are good ones. Many end-to-end funnel, with marketing
of the things that used to happen in on one end, lead generation and lead
the early stages of the sales funnel now qualification in the middle, and lead
happen independently of a salesperson. conversion by sales at the other end.
Customers are either interacting with
your content directly or discovering They’ve also started collaborating on
other kinds of expert advice or content and segmentation. Getting
content. Word-of-mouth is tricky to marketing and sales working together
measure, but there are ways to know in enterprise software sales is critical
when your content gets passed on. because there’s a long purchase cycle,
many decision-makers and influencers,
EIU: In the B2C world Red Bull and an increasing appetite among
and Nike are known to be good at customers to research and digest useful
engaging customers. What about and relevant content before they are
in B2B? Who is doing a good job willing to speak with a salesperson.
engaging customers there? Done right, the content helps educate
customers on their needs and how
Aditya Joshi: A lot of the professional specific products and services address
services companies do a good those needs. Distributing it within a
job. Engagement marketing is a customer’s organisation gets influencers
natural fit for professional services on the same page about the products.
firms. The product is intellectual
capital. It’s a small step back from EIU: You’ve got a unique perspective,
creating content to be consumed Aditya. Thanks for your time.
by customers, so I think professional
services firms do a good job of it. Aditya Joshi: You’re
Technology firms are getting better. welcome. I enjoyed it.

38
 Marc Mathieu:
Find a truth and share it

Marc Mathieu is senior vice-president of Economist Intelligence Unit:

marketing at Unilever. He is responsible Marketing has changed a lot in the
for the development of the company’s last five years. Let’s go out to 2020.
new global marketing strategy--Crafting Where is marketing heading?
Brands for Life--which supports
the company’s growth ambition of Marc Mathieu: I can answer the
doubling in size while reducing its question by describing how I spent
environmental impact. Previously, my time today. For perhaps a quarter
he served as senior vice-president of of the day I spoke with people about
global brand marketing at Coca-Cola, data and data strategy. I spent a
where he created the “Coke Side of couple of hours talking about artificial
Life” campaign, launched Coke Zero intelligence. I also spent a couple of
into 50 markets and developed the hours talking about start-ups and how
sustainability platform “Live Positively”. they’re changing marketing. After we
Mr Mathieu is a co-founder of the finish this conversation I’ll be talking
strategic branding consultancy, Bedo. to people about smartphones and
He sits on the Advisory Panel of the how they’re changing business and
Guardian Digital and Media network and marketing. That’s my day today.
writes regularly for Campaign magazine.
Three years ago none of these would
have been on my radar screen. I would
not have spent a lot of time on data
or marketing platforms or artificial
intelligence or start-ups. I think it says
a lot about how vast the change is. To
me it proves that marketing is changing
at an incredible pace and the biggest

39
driver is technology--how we connect a direct relationship with people by
with people, learn from people, connect having a conversation with them.
with entrepreneurs and follow everyone.
There’s a quote I like: “Marketing
EIU: Three years ago we had mobile, used to be about creating a myth
we had social media and we had and selling; now it’s about finding a
a tremendous amount of data, so truth and sharing it.” We’re looking
I’m not sure how that’s a change. for ways to share a truth, to invite
in the audience and let them take
Marc Mathieu: The trends existed, but ownership and share it with others.
they didn’t permeate the everyday You see that in our Project Sunlight
life of the marketer. And marketers campaign. We created a command
were not necessarily looking at ways centre where for several weeks we
to embed them at the scale they are had two or three people from each
today. Three years ago those were of 12 to 14 agencies, plus marketers
pilot programmes. And mobile existed, who publish, analyse, listen and edit.
but now we use mobile to think about The conversation is dynamic and in
developing personal relationships real time. The marketers can respond
with people at a scale that enables to the interests they see building.
a company like Unilever to actually
connect to a large group of consumers. Admit you don’t have all the answers
The scale wasn’t there to be very useful EIU: You can’t sell a myth in
to an organisation like Unilever. an age where everybody sees
everything--where social media
Share the truth makes communication completely
EIU: How is the shift from the creative transparent. It sounds like Unilever
side to data and platforms going to sees transparency as an opportunity.
change the job of marketers like you?
Marc Mathieu: We have an initiative to
Marc Mathieu: Our strategy is around double our business while reducing
sustainability, transparency and trust. our environmental footprint in order
And that’s enabled by changes in to have a more positive social impact
how people communicate, which on society. We recognised that in
technology has made more open and some areas we knew exactly what we
real-time. Today, and even more so a would do and in others we needed
few years in the future, we can build to figure it out along the way. We

40
admitted that. We acknowledged that to ways to deliver on the purpose
we were leading in some areas, but outside the specific products you sell
in others we had a long way to go. while at the same time being very
In Project Sunlight, we interviewed clear about what is part of the purpose
ordinary people in the form of a social and what is outside the purpose. A lot
experiment documentary. We sought of the work I’ve done at Unilever has
people’s reactions to discover truths been around ensuring that each brand
as opposed to creating advertising to has a clearly articulated purpose and
promote a self-serving point of view. connects to sustainable living practices.

EIU: Do you think marketing is going Make the inside reflect the outside
to become more important as a Marketers also have a responsibility
source of differentiation outside of to ensure that the inside of the
the consumer goods industry? corporation reflects the changes that
are happening outside the company.
Marc Mathieu: I don’t think marketing’s Especially when it comes to technology,
importance is specific to particular the pace of change among consumers
industries. People expect truth, is often faster than the changes
transparency and real-time engagement inside the organisation. Think of how
and communication. That puts a huge Facebook and Twitter and Google
responsibility on marketing to be able have changed our personal lives.
to understand those trends and embed
them in the marketing strategy. EIU: It sounds like you’re saying
marketing has a responsibility to
But it also gets to the heart of the ensure that the organisation reflects
business strategy. The business needs the markets they are selling to. So
the marketing function, and that if consumers are using Twitter, if
need is growing. Marketing looks at they’re on Facebook, then those are
trends in society and helps evolve also important trends to incorporate
the organisation’s vision, strategy and into the organisation as well. You
plans while at the same time staying are bridging the gap between the
true to the purpose of the brand and lives of consumers and the lives
the company. Marketing also helps of people in the organisation.
the organisation become more open

41
Marc Mathieu: We need to modify With Apple, it’s through the phone,
our outreach based on how the the apps, the computer and the
outside world is changing. And at the music. The brand is in front of me
same time we need to bring those many times a day, but it’s not in my
external changes into the corporation. face. Apple recently removed the “I”
Those are the two big trends. so that it’s no longer iPad but Apple
Pad and no longer iWatch but Apple
EIU: Could you take a crack at Watch. So they’ve started to put the
defining engagement marketing? Apple brand in the core of the product
What does it mean to you? brands. That’s how I would define
engagement: It’s the personalised,
Marc Mathieu: It means developing conceptualised interaction touch that
a personalised relationship with is relevant to me multiple times a day.
customers in a way that yields a high
degree of utility at every moment, Define the product broadly
depending on their needs, moods EIU: I can see what you’re saying
and mindset at that moment. One with Google. But there are a lot of
of the reasons brands like Google companies that you may need, but
and Apple are so relevant today is don’t need to interact with very much.
because we engage with them all I’m thinking of my insurance company,
the time. With Google, I’m on solid for instance. Maybe I interact with
ground: search, Gmail, Google them twice a year. How do you apply
Maps, Google Earth and so on. We engagement to organisations where
engage with Google constantly, the nature of the product is such that
which results in a high degree of there are very few touch points?
intimacy and makes it very relevant.
Marc Mathieu: I would disagree with you
about your insurance company. If it’s
car insurance, you probably engage with
your car twice a day if not more. Think
about insurance in the context of your
relationship with your car as opposed
to the relationship with your insurer.

42
EIU: If you define the product EIU: Thanks for being so generous
broadly enough, in the context of with your time, Marc.
how it is actually used, engagement
is possible across a much wider Marc Mathieu: They’re good
range of interactions. questions and it’s been useful for
me to articulate all of this.
Marc Mathieu: Which is exactly why
I spend a lot of time thinking about
the role of platforms in the marketing
of the future. Platforms can bring
together the delivery of multiple
products and services in ways that
can help serve people’s needs. Think
about the evolving business models
of Google and Apple. Last year they
were voted the number-one and -two
brands in the world. Ask yourself the
question, “What does that mean for
my brands and marketing strategies?”

We developed The Unilever Foundry

as a platform to connect our brand
with marketing start-ups. We used to
work with start-ups one by one, but
now we have a system that enables us
to work with start-ups at the scale of
Unilever. It’s not a consumer-facing
platform, but it’s still external-facing.
It’s an ecosystem that is integrated
into a network of Unilever brand vice-
presidents, who are the people start-
ups want to develop pilots with.

43
 Jim Stengel:
Marketing is at the
centre of strategy

Jim Stengel is a businessman, author, Economist Intelligence Unit: Think

professor and public speaker. A 25- about 2020. Five years out. What
year veteran of Procter & Gamble, he will the big trends in marketing
was global chief marketing officer from be over the next five years?
2001 to 2008. He is currently CEO of
The Jim Stengel Company, where he Jim Stengel: Personalisation is a big
advocates for ideals-driven businesses one. At Cannes this year I actually heard
and brands. He’s the author of “Grow: the word “innernet”, I-N-N-E-R-N-
How ideals power growth and profit at E-T, how the Internet is becoming the
the world’s greatest companies”, is on innernet--the idea that things will be
the board of AOL, advises MarketShare coming to you instead of you going out
and Myrian Capital, and is a former and searching. It’s already happening,
chairman of the Association of but we’re only in the beginning. When
National Advertisers and the American things come to us in a personalised
Advertising Federation Hall of Fame. In way, it will simplify things for us. Google
2011 Mr Stengel was named to the first- knows where I’m about to go and what
ever Fortune Executive Dream Team. I might want to eat because I let Google
have my personal data. Personalisation
is going to happen big time. A lot
of innovation. A lot of start-ups.

The second theme is automation.

There’s still a lot of human involvement
in things like advertising. The processes
are going to be automated. The whole
industry will go the way of Amazon. If
you believe in the drive for efficiency,

44
automation is the way to get it. EIU: You already bridged to the second
Google is well placed. AOL is well question, which is “What are the most
placed. Others are vying for a place. effective marketers going to be doing
five years from now?” The themes you
On the softer side, the idea of ambitious listed are personalisation, automation,
purpose is a huge theme. Companies ambitious purpose, humanity and the
aspire to have a much larger impact visual aspect of communication. When
on customers, consumers and the you talk about automation, you’re
world. It’s where so many of the talking about marketing automation
leading brands are going and have obviously. But you’re also talking about
gone. And these are brands that have an online marketplace for advertising
experienced sustained growth. that could displace ad agencies
from their traditional function.
Flaunt your humanity
I guess it’s related to ambitious purpose, Jim Stengel: That’s absolutely right.
but there is also this idea of a strong And it enables a tremendous amount
sense of humanity among employees of analytics to be done with that
and also with customers. A lot of the data because as pushing out ads
start-ups are leading this. Skype is and content becomes automated,
no longer a start-up, it’s owned by datasets are created that are much
Microsoft, but it is working to show the easier to understand. That’s why
human impact of people connecting you’re already seeing an explosion
through their technology. They did a in predictive analytics. Marketers are
wonderful video of two girls in different getting much more specific information
countries, each born with one arm, about where to put their resources.
who became friends over Skype and
got through life exchanging tips and I work with a company called
hints. They finally ended up meeting MarketShare out of Santa Monica.
in person. This sense of humanity is They were an early company in
a really strong theme in marketing. that field and they’re just growing
exponentially. Cheap computing
The last one is the fact that everything power, huge growth in data, marketers
is becoming more visual. The web who need to understand their
is turning into a visual medium. spending, and that’s why there’s a real
That’s why Snapchat and video explosion in start-ups in the space.
advertising are exploding.

45
Use the tools of marketing to Marketing used to be seen as the
get spectacular results communication department. But
EIU: So all these big trends have marketing is really at the centre of
helped to elevate marketing into a strategy, and strategy means where the
more important function than it was company is going and what choices it is
in the past, when it was synonymous making to get there--how it is going to
with advertising. Will marketing win. When marketing takes a leadership
continue to grow in importance as role on those questions, there is a more
a function in the next five years? robust and customer-centric strategy.
The company has a clear direction.
Jim Stengel: I think so. Marketers are
going to be executing against the Pivot from your ambitious purpose
themes we talked about, but they’ll EIU: The traditional idea of marketing
increasingly come to be seen as is that it comes at the end. After the
people who can help companies with product is created, they ask marketers,
their growth strategies. Companies “How do we sell this?” What you’re
are growing earnings faster than saying is marketing comes at the start.
they’re growing sales, and that
can’t go on forever. The market Jim Stengel: Absolutely. Marketing
places a huge value on growth. helps the organisation clarify and
articulate its ambitious purpose, and
There are incredible companies with everything pivots around that. The
strong legacies that don’t have a CEO and the entire enterprise need
growth culture. Those companies to ensure that marketing is part of
can use the tools of marketing to the team that brings the ambitious
get spectacular results. They need to purpose to life. Marketers that do that
attract talent. They need to build the well can really distinguish themselves.
right capabilities for the future. That
requires a strong marketing organisation EIU: Let me go on a brief tangent. We
with an understanding of its role in the hear more and more about the impact
enterprise, of the consumer, of what of privacy, especially in Europe. Google
about their product or their service is is now being asked to erase people’s
attractive and what that can lead to. pasts based on their requests. Will that
Getting insights into the consumer is interfere with personalisation or the
huge, and that’s marketing’s role. other trends that you’ve talked about?

46
Jim Stengel: It’s a big issue and I don’t to the things that drive engagement,
want to minimise it. But if you look at your relationships change. The specific
consumers, especially the generation ways you measure engagement
now in their 20s or late teens, they’ve change based on the product
grown up sharing everything and category, but it’s a good way to start.
have no qualms about it. They see the
value tradeoff to be very positive for How to get the CFO’s attention
them. Consumers want to share their EIU: Engaged customers are an asset
information. They want things to be that you’ve invested in and built
personalised. This is going to happen. up over time. How do you explain
the value of that asset to a CFO
View brands as relationships who wants to know about ROI? Do
EIU: How would you define the CFOs care about softer metrics?
concept of “engagement marketing”?
How does it differ from traditional Jim Stengel: CFOs do care. But a lot of
ways of relating to customers? marketing people don’t fully understand
what drives engagement. If you can
Jim Stengel: If you think about the quantify engagement, any CFO in the
customer using the metaphor of a world will pay attention. And not just
relationship, you can’t go wrong. pay attention, but say, “How can I help?”
At P&G we used to say that if we But too many marketing people don’t
measured our brands the way we understand what drives growth, what
measure healthy relationships with drives market share and what makes
other people, it would lead to a high their company preferred over others.
market share. So think about your
relationships. Do you look forward to EIU: So that brings us back to
seeing that person? Do you care about the question of what capabilities
them? Do they share your values? Do does a company need in order to
you speak well of them to others? drive engagement. Is it customer
centricity? Is it the focus on customer
That metaphor is powerful. It works experience? Is it consistency across
in every category. Ask those kinds channels and touch points? Are
of questions to a leadership team they all equally important?
about their customers and you get a
whole different way of approaching
the customer. When you start getting

47
Jim Stengel: The most important can be engaged, annoyed or
is a culture of customer centricity. indifferent. But this idea of paying
“Culture” is not just a soft word. You attention to the consumer experience
can break it down into how people crosses every category, and that’s
work and what they do. It is rituals. It often where I start with clients. The
is processes. It is who is getting a raise process is always rich with insights.
and who is getting promoted. What are
the measures on personal work plans? Stronger, more powerful, and
What are the measures on the business? taken more seriously
And if there isn’t some measure of EIU: Do you think marketers are getting
customer experience, customer better at engaging customers? Is the
engagement, customer loyalty in those quest for engagement becoming
measures, it will not be sustainable. more widely accepted, both inside and
outside of the marketing profession?
One thing you can look at across
categories is the experience. What’s Jim Stengel: Yes, I do. Look at the books
happening when people go online to written now. Look at what start-ups
buy you? What happens when they are spending on marketing and what
search your name? What happens when investors are paying for marketing
they walk down the aisle? Are you easy start-ups. Look at the quality of the
to find? To distinguish from others? Are people in the jobs. Look at the number
you priced about right? Are you easy of brands that have broken away and
to carry? Are you easy to use once you differentiated themselves. Marketing is
get home? Are you easy to recycle? becoming a stronger, more powerful,
more talented and more serious
When you get into a more personal function of business. Everyone in the
sale, like Zappos or an automobile, this world wants to figure out what’s going
idea of the consumer experience can on at brands like Red Bull and Nike. They
be rich. There are many interactions are winning by being consumer-centric
and touch points where the consumer and driven by ambitious purpose.

48
EIU: So Nike and Red Bull have and sharing it and linking it to their
become aspirational role models for brand. You’re going to see more of
marketers in other companies. an always-on, 24/7 mentality. That’s
a different way of working. It requires
Jim Stengel: Yes, and not just more capabilities in-house versus the
consumer goods companies--all kinds agencies because you don’t have time
of companies. When clients want to communicate and plan. I was at
to benchmark themselves against a presentation with Coke earlier this
others, they look for companies that summer and they talked about how
have differentiated themselves on they redesigned the organisation to
customer experience. People are be ready to engage all the time.
benchmarking outside their categories
much more than they used to. That’s a huge shift in marketing
operations. I fly Delta a lot. If you
The always-on mentality have a problem, they’re responsive.
EIU: Another trend seems to be the They’re very proactive. You’re going
shift in the marketing operations space. to see more and more of that. We
Marketing ops is hiring different kinds live in a world that wants answers
of people, looking for different titles, quickly. People expect more and
allocating their budgets differently. more of that from their brands.

Jim Stengel: Even five years ago The assembly line versus
marketing was still set up only to run the trading room
campaigns and launches. There is still EIU: What’s the right metaphor
a fair amount of that. But the marketers for that? Marketing used to be an
who are setting the tone for the rest of assembly line, a campaign factory.
the world, the Cokes and the L’Oréals Now it’s more like a trading room.
of the world, they’re always on. It’s not
the old mode of starting one campaign, Jim Stengel: It’s a trading room
looking at the results, doing another where the traders are playing jazz.
campaign. They’re always there.
EIU: Yeah. [Laughs.] But they
Look at Visa and Nike at the World still need to do the traditional
Cup. They were taking advantage of business of executing campaigns.
things that happened at the moment That’s not going away, right?

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Jim Stengel: The re will always be the Every story needs a purpose
equivalent of an iPhone launch. But Jim Stengel: You don’t have a story
there will also be day-in and day-out unless you have a purpose, have
efforts to build a relationship with the ambition, and are trying to make a
customer--the customer who in return difference in the world. More and more,
rewards you with a stream of purchases. people care about where brands come
from. Stories bring the character of a
EIU: One of the most-hyped words in brand to life. Sam Adams, Starbucks,
marketing is “storytelling”. We all know Tesla, Ritz-Carlton--they’re all out
the story of Steve Jobs building the first there with a story. The brands that
Mac in a building with the pirate flag. have a story consistent with their
Or Bill Bowerman using a waffle iron on heritage get more engagement.
his homemade running shoes. Those
are powerful stories. Can you talk about EIU: Do stories work better for fringe
how stories help to drive engagement? brands? There’s a David-and-Goliath
character to a lot of brand stories.

Jim Stengel: The fringe brands and

start-ups are pushing the envelope.
They always do. But many big brands
have resonant stories. Look at Louis
Vuitton. The storytelling they do
about the adventure of travel and
exploration. And small brands become
big brands. Red Bull has sensational
stories, and it’s now a big brand.

Economist Insights: Thanks, Jim.

Jim Stengel: It’s been a pleasure.

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