Brian Kurtz Interview

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Brian Kurtz Interview
Learn How A Legendary Copywriters

Stack The Odds And Get Winners
As the Vice President of Boardroom, Brian Kurtz helped grow that direct
marketing giant from about $3 million when he started to more than $100
million over the course of his 25 years.
He’s worked with all the great copywriters and says there’s a definite pattern
legendary copywriters like Eugene Schwartz, Dick Benson, and Bill Jayme
used to stack the odds in their favor and get winners every time. And in this
audio, you’ll hear what those things were and how you can use them too.
He says it pretty much comes down to the list. Although copywriters don’t
usually have control over the lists they’re writing to, they need to know how to
handle and analyze them.
Not only did the greats ask for a list history of any mailing they were about to
work on, but they also asked to see the control packages and promotions that
got those lists in the first place.
In other words, you need to know who the people are on your current list and
what they’ve responded to in the past in order to write a new winner.
Brian says from there it’s just a matter of becoming a slave to RFM (recency,
frequency, and monetary) to see consistent results.
And in this audio, you’ll get an average-Joe explanation of what that all means
and how to do it.
You’ll Also Hear . . .
* The 2 basic concepts every copywriter needs to understand (RFM and

lifetime value) and how to make sure you’ve got them both down
* Why list managers try to hide things, the most common telltale signs to look
for, and the five must-know questions to ask that will uncover the truth
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For more interviews on marketing consulting go to http://www.HardToFindSeminars.com
* How direct marketing fits into online businesses – and the one place it still
has incredible power to get results
* Why Brian says it’s important to strike while the iron’s hot, call the control,
and pyramid slowly – and a step-by-step look at how to do that in a mock
campaign
* Insider secrets of five of the biggest name copywriters Boardroom used and
what made each unique style a winner
* Brian works as a consultant now – here’s the first thing he does for every
client so he maximizes his time and theirs
* Brian’s largest failure and the lesson he learned from it about trusting press
releases
* The single biggest difference between a “house list” and an “outside list” and
the writing approaches needed for each
* “Real-life” insight into how Boardroom tests their copy – and determines their
controls
* Brian serves as Vice President of Boardroom Inc., for over 25 years and
Executive Vice President since 2001.
* He's overseen the mailing of approximately 1.3 billion pieces of third class
mail over the past 20 years
* He has been able to market and sell newsletters and books via direct
response television (infomercials) and using e-mail and the Internet in huge
numbers.
* At the height of his infomercial success, he was responsible for buying

media in excess of $80 million dollars.
* Sold over 3 million books via direct response television over a three year
period.
* Knows the ins and outs of every possible medium where direct marketing
lives and thrives.
* In 2000, he was inducted into the DMA Circulation Hall of Fame and in the
same year voted List
Never underestimate the power of copy, especially if you’re looking at it as a

science and not a game of chance. There are proven strategies that
legendary copywriters use to stack the odds and get results. They analyze
data and are constantly out to beat their own copy.
And in this audio you’ll hear all about it, along with a look at Brian’s amazing
story and what it was like working at Boardroom all those years.
PS. I am not promoting any of Brian products or memberships and I do NOT

get paid on anything you may or may not buy from him.
"If you are interested in interacting with Brian please e-mail him directly
[email protected]
Michael: Hi. I’m Michael Senoff, founder and CEO of

www.HardToFindSeminars.com. For the last 5 years, I’ve
interviewed the world’s best business and marketing minds.
Along the way, I’ve created a successful publishing business all
from home from my 2-car garage. Now my challenge is to build
the world’s largest free resource for online, downloadable MP3
audio business interviews. I knew I needed a site that contained
strategies, solutions, and inside angles to help you live better,
to save and make more money, to stay healthier, and to get
more out of life. I’ve learned a lot in the last 5 years and today
I’m going to show y9ou the skills you need to survive.
Brian: Hey, Michael, how are you?
Michael: I’m great, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian: I’m doing well.
Michael: You have a good weekend?
Brian: I did. I did. You?
Michael: I did. I can’t complain. I’m all relaxed and ready to start the
hustle.
Brian: There you go.
Michael: There you go. Well, thanks for taking the time to do this
interview with me. I’m sure my listeners will appreciate it.
Brian: Give me a little background on who I’m talking to, what they’re
looking for, etc.
Michael: I’ve got a combination of entrepreneurs, copywriters, and

marketing consultants. I don’t know if you did any research on
me. I’ve been interviewing business and marketing experts for
the last 10 years. I’ve got a huge compilation of audio
interviews at my website, www.HardToFindSeminars.com.
Yeah, so I’ll interview experts and I develop, promote, create,
and publish information products on all kinds of stuff, and I
promote the interviews to my list as adding value. And I didn’t
think of interviewing you. It was only until I had a client looking
for the specific letter from Eugene Schwartz, and so I reached
out to you and a couple people I knew and said, “Hey, do you
have that letter?” And I appreciate you sending me that.
Brian: No problem.
Michael: Yeah, I’m friendly with Ben Settle and I know he did a fantastic
promotion on your Titans of Direct Response.
Brian: Yeah, he did pretty well with it.

Michael: Ben is an incredible email marketer.
Brian: He really is.
Michael: During that promotion, was he the number one guy out of
everyone promoting it?
Brian: He was not, only because his list was a little smaller than GKIC,
but I think he was second to GKIC, which is pretty amazing by
itself.
Michael: Absolutely. Very impressive. I know you’ve got interviews out

there on the internet, I know you’ve got a lot of material out
there. I don’t want to cover the same stuff. Certainly I haven’t
listened to everything. I listened this morning to an interview
you did with Joe Polish. I don’t know, would you share some
information?
Brian: I can go in a lot of directions.
Michael: I want to talk just a little bit about your history. I want to get
some insights into what it was like working with Marty and
Boardroom, Schwartz, what was Jim Rutz like? I’ve got about
600 marketing consultants. I sell how to be a marketing
consultant information product and I want to maybe offer some
advice to the green guys who are struggling on how to get
clients. Some of the process that you’ve used to get clients, can
we use direct mail with your expertise in getting clients? A lot of
people are afraid for that face to face. Let’s just roll with it. We’ll
have a call to action, maybe we can promote you in your
consulting or maybe even the Titans of Direct Response. Let’s
just play it by ear because I can always follow up with a call to
action.
Brian: I can certainly direct people to a site, I certainly would want

them to opt in to my list.

Michael: Definitely. What would you like out of it?
Brian: I’m always interested in doing these interviews because I’m

building my list. I want to put really good people on to my list
because ultimately, one of the things I’ll probably be doing –
I’ve already launched my Mastermind – is that I want to do a
series of what I call Titans master classes, which is 2 day
events, very targeted, hot seat, helping people with their
businesses, that type of thing, so having people on my list who
eventually might want to read my blog over a period of time and
then either meet with me – I mean, I’m not prospecting for
consulting clients although stuff does happen.
Michael: Look, you never know who’s going to be listening. I’ve been
building a list for a long time, I’ve got about 14,000 subscribers.
I used to buy and sell used Jay Abraham stuff when I got
started, so a lot of them are real marketing savvy and even I
don’t know who’s on my list, so you never know.
Brian: As far as me, what I want to get out of it, I’m doing this because
I think it’s a good audience for me, it’s good content for you,
and then the other thing, I do have an interview I did with Joe
that’s called “How to hire a marketing consultant.”
Michael: Yeah, I listened to that this morning. Well, look, welcome to the
interview. I appreciate you taking the time to share a little
information about yourself. The big thing that I know of your
name is you were the guy who worked with Marty Edelston and
helped build Boardroom, correct?
Brian: Correct.
Michael: So, why don’t you tell the listeners what was your first
involvement? How did you even step into that situation, and
then we’ll ask some questions of what it was like along the
way? How did it all start?

Brian: It’s not that earth shattering a story but basically when I was in
college, I was the film critic for my school newspaper, so I was
really into movies. I was into writing. To the chagrin of my
parents, I was an English major which meant I probably wasn’t
going to get a job, but at least I was going to learn how to read
and write. So when I got out of college, I started applying for
jobs at publishing companies, went to a bunch of different head
hunters that specialized in publishing more than anything else.
I did get a job at a play publisher just out of school and there
was one particular head hunter, however, for some reason, he
was connected to Marty in a big way. Marty was the kind of guy
– and this will be a good preamble to who he was – but he was
loyal to anybody he ever worked with in his career, so he was
loyal to this one head hunter that kept on bringing him great
people as he started building his company, Boardroom. This
was circa 1981 but this head hunter had been working with him
since the mid-1970s when he started the company. So I got out
of college in 1980, I was connected to this one head hunter,
and one day this head hunter said to me, “There’s this guy
Marty Edelston who I think would love you.”
I’m thinking I don’t know where that’s coming from, but why
would this guy who I’ve never met before love me? And I think
what this head hunter recognized was my personality was such
that even though I thought I wanted to be a writer or an editor or
something, he saw that I had an outgoing personality, I had
kind of a sales component to my personality even though I
probably hadn’t sold anything yet at that point in my life, but I
was interested as opposed to interesting. There wasn’t much
interesting about me at that point. All I had going for me was
being interested, and one thing led to another. While I was
working at this first job, this head hunter connected me to Marty
for an interview, and it was with some part of the company that
was called “list management.”

At the time, Boardroom managed its mailing list in house. Most

companies at the time would take the mailing list, give it to an
outside list manager, and the list then would be available for
direct mail people to use the list, and it just so happened that
Boardroom managed its list in house. Boardroom had
newsletters, did not take advertising, so the only way to reach
that audience was through this mailing list and because Marty
had built a newsletter business at that point to the tune of,
probably about a $3-5 million business, the lists were probably
the only way not only to get to the audience, but it was also a
way for Marty to create some kind of advertising revenue of
sorts. It was something he kept close to the vest, he kept it in
house, and the job that I interviewed for was a salesperson
renting the boardroom mailing list.
Michael: Tell the listeners how old was Boardroom at the time? What did
the company look like at that point? What year are we talking
about?
Brian: We’re talking like 1981. The company had bene around since
1972, so about 9 years. Company had one newsletter,
Boardroom Reports. It just launched the second newsletter
called Bottomline Personal. They had a bunch of books, mostly
business books, because Boardroom Reports was a business
newsletter, and it was probably about a $3 million business at
the time.
Michael: How many subscribers?
Brian: I think Boardroom Reports at the time probably had 150,000;

not all paid. It was sold with what’s called a “bill me” offer, which
a lot of people on the internet don’t even know what I’m talking
about when I say that, but back then the magazine business
and newsletter business was very much “try it before you buy
it,” so you get a “bill me,” you get 3 free issues, 6 free issues,
you try it, you get a bill, and you actually get people to pay for it.
So, 150,000 subscribers and Bottomline Personal had probably
just launched when I got there, so they had maybe 50,000

subscribers, and they had sold quite a few books.
There was one book that was kind of a general business book
called The Book of Business Knowledge that had actually sold
about 100,000 copies, which is a lot for hardcover book in direct
mail at the time. So it was a growing company, maybe 30
employees, and I probably didn’t understand completely what I
was stepping into, but what an adventure to start, to be able to
be part of this company kind of at the beginning. Marty had
taken his life savings to start the company in 1972 and saw
something in me that he thought was congruent with what he
wanted to build.
Michael: So you remember that interview, the first day?
Brian: Well, the first interview wasn’t with him. It was with the person
who was running the whole list operation. It was after I was
hired by her – and I had to talk her into hiring me because she
thought I was over qualified for the job and I said, “Well, I’m
making $9600 a year working for this other publisher; there’s
nothing that I’m over qualified for” – and so for a $12,000 sales
job in 1981, I had to talk her into hiring me, but once I got hired
I got to meet with Marty and I remember meeting with him in his
office, basically saying, “Congratulations, thanks for joining us,
I’m glad you’re here,” and I remember one of the things in his
office that was so cool – this is in Manhattan, in New York –
and he was a black belt in Karate. He was a pretty strong guy.
One of the things he liked to do was rip phone books, and in the
corner there were all these ripped phone books, and I don’t
know if he had Manhattan but he certainly had Queens and
Brooklyn, which were big, thick phone books. We’re not talking
about one of these small suburban phone books. We’re talking
about major New York borough phone books. I told him years
later, I said, “It’s pretty intimidating coming in to meet you for
the first time and instead of a torture chamber, you’ve got

ripped phone books from 3 million population of boroughs in

New York City.”
Michael: That’s impressive.
Brian: I’m not going to mess with this guy.
Michael: Did you ever see him rip one?
Brian: I did. I did. It was pretty cool. I actually have a photograph of

him karate chopping a board over a stack of books, which is
one of my favorite photos of him. He was an eclectic character
for sure.
Michael: How did he die?
Brian: January of 2001 is when he had a stroke. It was before 9/11;

9/11 was September of 2001. And he was paralyzed a bit on
one of the sides of his body but he didn’t lose his mental
faculties, but over the next 12 years, there was a demise in his
physical and his mental capabilities and so he died in 2013 and
I think it was kind of like his body had just taken such a beating
from the stroke, it just kind of gave out. I wouldn’t say he died of
any one thing, but he was strong as an ox before his stroke so
it was always a very difficult thing after he had the stroke and
he was limited in what he could do.
You’re listening to an exclusive interview on Michael Senoff’s

www.HardToFindSeminars.com.
Michael: So what was your first job you got hired on? What was it you
were going to do?
Brian: I was actually the representative in the marketplace to rent the

Boardroom lists. The Boardroom lists were lists of subscribers
and book buyers to these newsletters and books and they were
all affluent executives so it was a great list. It was people who,
even thought they’d only spent $29 or $30 for the product, they
were affluent executives for the most part who were very
responsive to direct mail, so everybody wanted the Boardroom
list.
Michael: And at that time, they weren’t generating any list rental income
when you came on?
Brian: No, that’s not true. They had a list rental business when I got
there. It was already doing $1 million and a half just in list
rental. We had built it up to about $5 million in list rental at one
point and we ended up exchanging a lot of names. One of the
beauties of that list, because it was so diverse in terms of who
could use it, because the obvious people could use it – Money
Magazine and all the health magazines and Rodale books,
Gore Publishing and Phillips – all those people could use the
Boardroom list, but then there were all these other people that
could use it like charitable fundraisers and political fundraisers
and catalogers, so it was one of those magical mailing lists that
would work for such a wide variety of offers because it was
affluent executives who were very direct mail responsive, so the
advantage for me was that I was representing these lists in the
marketplace and I got to meet everybody. I got to meet
everyone who was involved in direct marketing in the world
from 1981 until I stopped selling the list. It was not just the list
brokers, but the mailers that were mailing the lists. I got to meet
a lot of them. And of course Marty was so well connected in the
world with all the people that wrote for our publications that I got
to meet some amazing authors and health experts and financial
experts. Just a phenomenal exposure to both the direct
marketing industry and the publishing industry.
Michael: Tell me some stories. Who were you in awe of? You started
out; were you prospecting to build the list rental business or
generate additional sales for the list? Give me the names of
some of the people you met that was just really impactful on
your life.
Brian: There were so many. One would be Eugene Schwartz, author

of Breakthrough Advertising and one of the greatest copywriters
who ever lived, author of probably the most important book ever
written on copy, creative, and human behavior, was someone
who wrote the original promotion for Boardroom Reports for
Marty back in 1972, and by the early 1990s, Gene was using a
lot of Boardroom lists for his small company, Instant
Improvement, and I used to go have lunch with him on a regular
business because I would just sit at Gene’s feet and be in awe
of all the things he could teach me, and the interesting thing is
that I’d become an expert in the list business, so not only was I
able to arrange for him to use the Boardroom lists in exchange
for him to write copy for us, which was kind of a cool thing.
I wrote a blog post about that called “It’s not always about the
money,” and it was Gene Schwartz basically trading his copy
for Boardroom for Boardroom’s name so he could promote to
our lists on exchange, so he wouldn’t have to pay for the lists,
and what a great deal on both sides because Gene had a small
company but being able to access lists like Boardroom and
Rodale in exchange for writing copy was a really cool deal. In
exchange, also I helped Gene a lot because I became a list
expert and I was able to help him with relationships in the list
industry, where he could get other people’s lists and I could
negotiate on his behalf, even do third party exchange
agreements so he could use the balance he owed Boardroom
and Boardroom would owe someone else and I could get him
names at a lower price so I could get basically great lists for
Gene as a favor almost, in exchange for him mentoring me and
helping Boardroom with copy, so that’s one just amazing
symbiotic relationship. To be able to call Gene Schwartz a
mentor was pretty amazing.
Michael: That’s very cool.

Brian: Another one was Dick Benson. Dick Benson is probably the
most important person in direct mail at the time and he wrote
the best book on the topic, called Secrets of Successful Direct
Mail, and Dick, at his own company that published newsletters,
that published the Johns Hopkins wellness letter and the UC
Berkeley wellness letter, Dick was a consultant for Boardroom.
Once I started getting out of just lists and I started working on
the marketing side at Boardroom, I would visit with Dick. I would
go over all the testing we were doing. You would sit at his feet,
again, all day long and he would just tell you what to test, what
you tested that made sense, what you tested that didn’t make
sense, and at the end of those sessions, one of the greatest
compliments he paid me – I was helping him with his lists
because I knew a lot about the health list market, so for his own
business I was helping him with his list just like I did with Gene
– and I remember him telling me how impressed he was with
my list knowledge.
My joke is that I probably could have died then and had a

successful career with Dick Benson telling me that he was
impressed with me, and he didn’t say it with a lot of effusive
praise because that wasn’t Dick Benson’s style, but he said,
“Brian, I haven’t known you that long but frankly, I’m
impressed.” Dick Benson was one of the greats of all time as it
pertains to direct mail. He created his own products with these
health newsletter, and he did consult. In fact, one of the
consulting clients he’s had was Contest Newsletter, which was
one of the few newsletters that got to a million subscribers, and
he was the chief consultant to orchestrate all of that. In his book
he has a lot of case histories. He was one of the architects at
American Heritage Publishing.
Michael: Take me back to the very first letter that Schwartz wrote for
Marty Edelston. What kind of results did that promotion
generate? Do you have any idea?

Brian: I don’t have the exact numbers but I remember it launched the
publication; it was a classic headline. It was something like
“Read 300 business magazines in 30 minutes and get the guts
of each one.” Marty invented hypertext 25 years before the
internet.
Michael: What’s hypertext?
Brian: Basically, he invented being able to get the summarized

information of the most important things ever written. Maybe a
better analogy would be he was Reader’s digest before
Reader’s Digest understood what Reader’s Digest really was.
Even though Reader’s Digest came before him, when it came
to business information, Marty understood that every great
business book probably had one great chapter or one great
tidbit or maybe five great pieces in it, and that was what we
published in Boardroom Reports.
Michael: That was launched back in 1972?
Brian: Correct.
Michael: How many promotions did Schwartz write for Boardroom over
the years?
Brian: Oh, many promotions. When we launched Boardroom reports

but later on he wrote much more in the health area for us. He
had his own company called Instant Improvement and he did
mostly health books for that so when we had a new health
book, we would go to Gene and have him write copy.
Interestingly, there’s a phrase about Gene Schwartz that says,
“Gene didn’t write copy, he assembled it.” What that means is
when Gene would come to us and we’d say we have a health
book that we’d like him to do a package for, he would take a
look at the book and go, “Well, I can write some interesting
copy about these particular items but if you have some
information about X, Y, and Z as it pertains to diabetes or blood
pressure or whatever, if you can get some information on that

and I’m able to write certain things,” he would actually send us
back to the editors and say go do some research on these
particular topics, so that we’d then go back to Gene with new
copy for the book that he would write promotion copy for.
Gene was also someone who wrote in what we called

fascinations, or called bullet points. Basically, an item with a
page number; that was Gene’s style that he would have a tidbit
that would be so enticing and then you’d have a page number
after it, and that would be where the answer to what his
fascination was actually appeared in the book.
Michael: I thought that was Mel Martin’s deal.
Brian: No, Mel was our guy exclusively. Actually, Mel learned that
technique, he said, from Ralph Ginsburg, believe it or not, and
Ralph and Gene were contemporaries in the 1960s, so I don’t
know who invented fascinations. Mel Martin perfected it with
Boardroom and in Boardroom’s copy but Gene was on it even
before that.
Michael: Who came first, Mel Martin or Schwartz?
Brian: I’m going to say Gene came first but Mel became the master of
fascinations for Boardroom.
Michael: How many other copywriters did Boardroom use other than Mel
and Schwartz at that time, maybe in between ’72 and ’81?
Brian: I’m going to go ’72 to maybe late 80s, we used all the greats.
We used Gary Bensavenga, we used Jim Rutz, we used Bill
Jayme –
Michael: Can we just say something unique about each one of these
copywriters? A lot of my subscribers have heard of these guys.

What could you say about Bill Jayme? And I’ve got a product of
copy. What would you say was unique about him?
Brian: Yeah, I did a product of his. I have something called the Bill
Jayme collection.
Michael: Yeah, I must have bought it from you, then.
Brian: Yeah, that’s the one. It was a $400 product, which I currently
own. Bill Jayme’s specialty was what I call narrative copy. He
wasn’t a fascination writer, although his headlines were just
incredible, and he was a specialist. One of the areas where he
was the person no one could beat was the magazine world. He
was fantastic at taking magazines that people kind of knew
already from the newsstand and creating a mystery about them
that other writers couldn’t seem to capture, and most other
writers that were writing about magazines that people already
knew, they would sell more on price. They would say we’ll give
you a special deal because everybody knows the magazine
already, and Bill never wanted to do that. Bill wanted to kind of
create what’s the mystery behind Money Magazine. His classic
package for Psychology Today, “Do you close the door when
you’re in the bathroom and you’re home alone?” It’s not those
exact words –
Michael: I’ve heard of it.
Brian: Yeah, that was a classic Bill Jayme. There were one where it
was for New Yorker Magazine and it was like three sound
effects, like “drop, kerplunk,” or something and it had raindrops
on it. And it was just like – he would tap into the emotions in a
way that most writers of the time did not. He wasn’t as hard
hitting as a Gene Schwartz or a Mel Martin. He wasn’t
paranoid. He wasn’t making the reader feel like it was
information they can’t live without. He was actually much more
about entertainment and a phenomenal writer.

Michael: Anyone interested in learning more about him; you offer that
package? What’s it called?
Brian: The Bill Jayme Collection. People can buy it from me. I’ll give
them a pretty attractive price on it if they’re interested in it.
Michael: And it’s a compilation of all his work.
Brian: It’s 10 CDs. It’s every package he every wrote on PDF and then
there’s a DVD in that set of Bill Jayme himself presenting at an
event that we did with him. It’s 11 discs. I think it’s 10 CDs and
a DVD of Bill Jayme’s greatest, basically.
Michael: It’s quite comprehensive. It’s excellent.
Brian: Yes, it’s really good, and then I’ll give you an email if people
want to send me an email. It’s [email protected]
Michael: He teamed up with a designer. Is that correct?
Brian: Yeah, he lived with him. They were actually partners. His name
is Heikki Ratalahti, and in fact when Bill died, it was Heikki that
made the deal with Marty and I to give us Bill’s entire collection
of Bills’ direct mail. Heikki was a very talented designer.
Michael: Okay, so we’re talking about direct mail. How important, say in
a percentage, is the design? What would you tell someone
who’s designing direct mail, as far as the design aspects of it?
Brian: Good question. If I had to put a gun to my head and put a

percentage on it, I still think it’s like 80/20 copy to design in
direct mail. I think there are designers that would probably say
it’s 50/50 because they’re designers, and there might be writers
who will say it’s 90/10, so maybe it’s 75/25, I don’t know, but
the big thing I’d want to say is without really good design and a
designer working in concert with a great copywriter, I don’t think

your direct mail has as good a chance at becoming one of the

great controls of all time as ours had.
So every one of our great copywriters worked with a great

designer and they were in sync. It wasn’t like the copy came in
from the copywriter and Marty and I would then just send it to
any designer of our choosing. We actually had the copywriter
choose the designer, they would do the copy, they’d be talking
to the designer throughout, and then once the copy was done,
they were working together on it once the copywriter gave the
copy to the designer, as opposed to us deciding who the
designer should be.
I think as time goes on, design is getting more and more

important, especially on the internet, and in fact I heard from
somebody who’s a marketer I really, really respect, who does
mostly online products, and he was at a conference speaking
once, and he said in a creative department with 10 people, it
used to be 7 copywriters and 3 designers and now it’s 3
copywriters and 7 designers. I didn’t take that comment lightly
because I Trust the guy who said it, so I Think design is just
critically important because if people aren’t going to be
engaged with the copy, there’s no chance they’re going to read
it. Again, obviously I’m a slave to “great copy is great copy” and
to think that because email is cheap or the internet is less
expensive to market on that you can throw any copy up there
and it’s okay. I think there’s incredible leverage in creating
world class copy.
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copywriting, go to Michael Senoff’s www.HardToFindSeminars.com.
Michael: Tell me a story about Jim Rutz and maybe one of his biggest
successes with Boardroom.
Brian: He had a few of them. I was just in Arizona a couple of weeks

ago and I had lunch with his sister. After Jim passed away, I
wrote a blog post called “A copywriter closest to God,” and Jim

was such an interesting, interesting man. First of all, his sister
sent me his entire swipe file so I have it all in two boxes in
storage and I have to figure out a way to create a product from
it.
Michael: How many years did he write for?
Brian: Oh, he had to be over 20, 25 years, I would think.
Michael: How did he die?
Brian: He had a bunch of mini strokes over the last couple of years, so
I think ultimately it was high blood pressure and probably a
stroke that killed him.
Michael: So tell me about a big win.
Brian: So, had a bunch of big wins but one of the things I talked about
in that blog post is this notion that he was able to write more
traditional direct mail but he was also able to launch a church.
He had this thing called the open church that he created and it
was the love of his life, so he would actually write promotion
that would bring in people to this open church. Selling religion is
hard and he did it in a spectacular way. One of his other
favorite things that he did – there’s that one, there’s another
one that I want to tell you about, and then there’s a third that I
want to do for Boardroom – but there was another one that he
did where he was actually looking for a mail order bride.
He hadn’t been married and he wanted to find a bride, and he

went on various sites and he wrote this incredible letter. I think
the headline was something like “Wanted: damsel in distress,
distress optional.” Just a brilliant profile of Jim as a knight in
shining armor that never found the love of his life. For a guy
that had written promotion copy for newsletters and books and

information products his whole life, to do amazing promotion for

both a church and then for his own love life was pretty amazing.
Michael: Did he find a bride?
Brian: He never got married. He did have a woman from Russia that I
think he came really close to marrying but I don’t know what
happened.
Michael: I wonder if that influenced Gary Halbert when he wrote that

huge full page ad in one of the LA newspapers.
Brian: They were influenced by each other, I know that. Rutz wrote in
the same era as Gary Halbert and I’m a huge student of Halbert
as well, so they knew each other. I have a feeling in this
particular case, Rutz might have bene influenced more by
Halbert because you remember later on with Evan Pagan and
the David D’angelo stuff and I think Evan was very much
influenced by Gary Halbert, so I don’t know where the origins
are on all of that.
Michael: So you had the church, the dating ad, and then you were going
to tell me –
Brian: As far as Boardroom, he did a package once – I guess it was

right at the beginning of Bill Clinton’s first administration and
Hillary was I guess working for health reform, and it was this
package that was almost cartoony. There’s one where Hillary
was on the cover and it was like Hillary milking the system or
something like that, she was pulling these udders of these cows
– it was almost like on the border of cheesy and it was so
powerful and a narrative, that I remember Paris Panpopoulis,
one of the great copywriters that we worked with later on, said
this is the kind of package that you could look at all day long
and you would never be able to imitate it. Jim Rutz was so hard
to imitate.

There was another package similar to that that he did for us for
Bottomline Personal, which is our consumer newsletter, and
again, it bordered on cheesy. It was something like
“Champagne Sherry and Limo Larry” and he had this fictitious
couple about how they lived on champagne and caviar and had
big cars and big houses, and I’m thinking this is never going to
work to our audience. They are aspirational but I didn’t think it
was going to work, but the way that he finessed the copy to get
into the heads of people who were aspirational without making
them feel bad by looking at people who were living with the rich
and famous was just so artistic, the way he wrote that.
The beauty of Jim Rutz is he had his finger on the pulse of what
was happening in the world at every single moment. He’s a
great example, as is Gene Schwartz. The power of reading
everything, knowing what’s happening in the world, knowing
current events, and not being a slave to current events in your
copy because you don’t want to be stuck on something that
you’re going to have to revise as the world changes, but to be
so in tune with what’s happening in the world so you can write
copy that would resonate with a much wider audience based on
their fears, their desires, what’s happening in the world.
So the Hillary package with people worried about the future of

healthcare, Limo Larry and Champagne Sherry because at that
point we were talking about the wealth gap back then. This is
probably in the late 1980s and early ‘90s and we were talking
about the same wealth gap that we’re talking about today, and
Jim had his finger on the pulse of that. He did a package for our
tax newsletter and again, he understood that it wasn’t that
Americans shouldn’t pay taxes but you should only pay what
was right. I guess hew as a libertarian for the most part, so he
was so committed to capitalism but also fairness that that came
through in his copy all the time.

Michael: Tell me the story about Gary Bensavenga. When did y’all first
bring him on, what did he work on? Tell me about big win from
him.
Brian: Man, he had some huge wins. The guy is probably the best
living copywriter, and I had the privilege of having him speak
probably for the last time at my Titans event, which was one of
the thrills of my career, and of course attending the
Bensavenga 100 in the mid-2000s was also probably the event
of all time for copywriters. I guess the beauty of Gary
Bensavenga – I talk about this when I talk about Gary – is that
he was the kind of guy that he would rather beat himself than
get beat, and every copywriter that’s been great in my life that
I’ve worked with, and I’ve worked with all the greats, their
attitude is that if they write a control, they get a package that
becomes the control package and it’s a winner, the first thing
they want to do is beat it, as opposed to sit there and rest on
their laurels and wait for one of the other great writers to beat
them. Gary was like that.
I remember he had one winner for us; it was a survey package

and it was kind of a mock survey where it was like a package
for Bottomline Personal where it was “We’d like your opinion
and please give us the answer to a couple of questions,” and
then it was a gift certificate for a free trial subscription to
Bottomline Personal, so it was sort of like the survey was an
involvement device to get them into a free trial subscription. A
little gimmicky, not low integrity and not a scam by any means,
but certainly a mechanism that got a very, very high front end
response because people love surveys, they love to be
involved, so it was a great involvement device the way he did it,
because he talked to people – “We’d like your opinion as if
you’re part of our family at Bottomline” – so he really got under
the skin of people who were already customers and then at the
same time, they were mostly ex-buyers to the publication, and
he got them to re-up for a trial subscription. When that became
the control, he said, “You know, Brian, I’m getting this incredible
response rate but the pay up isn’t that high,” meaning that a lot
of people were trying ti because of the gimmick, but by the time
they got their first 3 free issues, a lot of them weren’t paying up
for it, so then they would fall off the list because we didn’t get
them to pay. So then he went the complete opposite to test
against it, and he tested what we call a bookalogue, and a
bookalogue at the time – and they still are out there – I think the
first one he did for us was 64 pages of copy. It was almost like
a little 6x9, almost like a little digest booklet, and it was heavy
copy. The survey package that he did was very sparse with
copy, a simple #10 envelope with a very, very simple letter and
the bookalogue was the exact opposite; 64 pages, very
engaging, lots of “steak”, like we gave away some of the
secrets and then you got 5 of the 7 secrets and to get the other
2 you had to get the free premium, so it was a sizzle and steak
kind of thing. What happened with the bookalogue to the same
audience, we got a much lower front end response, meaning
that we didn’t get as high a front end response rate to the trial
subscription, but the pay up rate almost doubled, meaning that
the engagement people of a bookalogue with people reading at
that deeper level got us a much more qualified potential
subscriber and therefore once they got the free issues, they
were already wedded to the product in a much deeper way that
the people who went to the survey package. To give you real
numbers, the survey package sometimes did a 4% front end
response but we’d get 20% of them to pay up, whereas the
bookalogue package might only do 2.5% front end, but we
would get sometimes 50% of the people to pay up. When you
think about that, it’s not just the pay up and the money but then
the amount of free issues you gave away and didn’t get a paid
subscriber went way down. Then if looked out to year 2 in terms
of the renewals, the people who came in from the bookalogue,
they renewed at a much higher rate because they were wedded
to the product at a deeper level, that after getting it for a year,
they were actually doubly wedded, if I might use that phrase,
whereas if they came in from the survey package, even if they
paid for it, they did not renew at as high a rate. The beauty
there that Gary understood was he really understood lifetime

value as it pertains to the copy that you write. I always like to
say how you promote is how they will respond and how they will
pay you and how they will renew, so people who are
copywriters listening to this, and people hwo are marketers who
are hiring copywriters, never underestimate the power of the
level of copy that you’re putting out there for the initial
acquisition package and how engaging it can be not just in
terms of the first sale, but the second sale and third sale.
Michael: That’s impactful. Did these guys all know each other? Did they
talk with each other or did they view each other as competitors?
What was it like, the atmosphere?
Brian: They were competitors, sure, but they were incredible admirers
of each other. In fact, Gary and Jim Rutz were friendly
competitors. In fact, the two of them – I don’t’ think they ever
got together on this, but they both were the fathers of the
magalogue, which was an 8.5x11 type of format that was a
direct mail format – there was another guy named Dick Sanders
who was an early magalogue writer as well – but the beauty of
Rutz and Bensavenga is that they perfected the magalogue and
they got control packages from it, and they were also so good
that they were also in sync on the fact that for the biggest
mailers they worked with, they didn’t even have to charge an
upfront fee, that they would work completely for free and it
would be completely a royalty based situation where they would
get paid on names mailed. Now, later on they became in such
high demand that they would get an upfront and a royalty.
Michael: But at first Rutz and Gary Bensavenga would offer their
services for free and just earn their income on a royalty?
Brian: Yeah, they did, early on before they were as well known and as
in demand, but they were also making huge amounts of money
because they were the best writers. Those are the two that
could demand that. I also think that they set the stage for the
way copywriters are today. When I did my Titans event, Gary

Bensavenga spoke, and after Gary Bensavenga spoke, I did a
panel of what I call my Mt. Rushmore of Boardroom’s
copywriters over the last 20 years, and I put on stage four
writers who were responsible for 650 million pieces of direct
mail just for Boardroom.
Michael: Who were they?
Brian: Those four guys were Paris Panpropoulis, David Deutsch, Eric
Betuel and Arthur Johnson, and while all four of them had not
met each other each until that moment on stage, it so
happened that David Deutsch and Paris Panpropoulis were
very, very close friends. Eric and Arthur were admirers of each
other. Arthur used to read Paris and David’s copy all the time to
get ideas. Paris would tell me that when he would want to write
a package for us and look at the control from Arthur, if he
thought he couldn’t beat it, he wouldn’t even take the
assignment.
So they were competitors but incredible admirers and in fact, in

some cases, I think some of them over the years – not just
those four but others as well – would actually compare notes on
copy. One of them would kind of coach the other and they’d
reverse that, so I don’t know who did this with who, but they
were helping each other, copy chief, so to speak. And I know
that a lot of them were mentored. Jim Rutz mentored Dave
Deutsch and one of the packages we did with Jim Rutz on our
tax newsletter when we were going back and forth with Jim, Jim
said “My apprentice David Deutsch wrote this particular piece of
the package,” so then we started a relationship with David
directly because of that. Jim was fine with that.
You’re listening to an interview on Michael Senoff’s


Michael: I know David, and let’s talk a little bit about David. What is his
specialty? Where are his strengths in regards to copy?
Brian: David’s an amazing copywriter but David’s an amazing teacher

as well. I’ve seen him train and teach a lot of copywriters who
are just coming into their own today who would probably give
David as their mentor, and David’s big thing is he’s so
meticulous about his copy and how he writes his headlines.
He’s got his own methodology of how he creates copy, but he is
just a master at finessing the words. I’ve seen him just reword
things that seem so simple that change the essence of a
package.
Michael: You said Bensavenga, when he would get a control, he

wouldn’t stop there. He would maybe come back to you guys
and try and beat the control, so his incentive to beat the control
were larger royalties.
Brian: Correct. If he’s got the control, he’s got a winner, so he’s going
to get the royalties. If someone beats him, he’s going to lose his
royalties, so that was his incentive. That’s why I always warn
against writers – I mean, they have to be good enough to get
royalties in the first place, but once they’re good enough to get
royalties, for them to not want royalties and not want to get paid
on performance, to me is a sign that they’re not willing possibly
to put their stuff out there and to constantly try to beat
themselves.
Michael: So how does one try to get the control? You gave the examples
of you don’t have to pay to subscribe so you hope there’s a pay
out at the end. Who wins the control, the one who brings the
most money in?
Brian: Always.
Michael: So it’s always about the money. How long does it take to
determine?
Brian: It could take 3-4 months to call a control from a mail date.
Online you can do it obviously a lot faster with the cash up
front. In direct mail with the cash up front, you can determine it
in a pretty short time as well. You can win on front end and lose
on back end, but for us, because we had a bill me offer, it
always had to be based on P and L.
Michael: Let’s say I’m a hot shot copywriter and you like my stuff and
Boardroom accepts me to do a trial for a piece and I write the
piece and I’m brand new; how many names do you test on new
copywriters’ package when you start?
Brian: In direct mail, our rule of thumb was to do 25,000 name panels
because we were trying to back in to some way to get about
100 net orders, so that was a way to back into it. Let me just do
the math on that so I can check it, but for example, if you mail
25,000 names and you can get on the front end 2.5% response
rate, that’ll give you 625 gross orders and lets’ say you can get
30% pay up, that would give you 187 orders. That would be
kind of a statistically significant number that you can judge it on,
so we backed into the 25,000 name test panel to try to get to a
minimum of 100 net orders, so that if the response rates were a
little bit lower on the front end or back end, we’d still get 100 net
orders. And you’d test that 25,000 against a 25,000 similar
panel to the control, which is not part of the bulk part of your
mailing.
Say you were mailing a million names; you might mail 800,000
names that all go to the control, and then the other 200,000
could be 8 test panels of 25,000 names each. One of those
would be a control panel and then the other 7 would be tests,
and one of those tests would be the hot shot copywriter.
Michael: Interesting. So, we hear all the time copywriters hear how
important copy is and certainly it is important but it’s not the
whole name of the game, so in Boardroom, talk a little bit about
the list selection that these hot shot copywriters – the names
that these test panels are going out to. How big of a part does
that play in the net results of sales in a marketing package?
Brian: It’s huge. I don’t know if it’s half or 60%. There’s a rule of thumb
that says if you mail the best piece of creative of all time and
you mail it to a list that’s not targeted, not the right audience,
not the right people, you’ll get no response. If you take a
package that’s written by a B copywriter or C copywriter that at
least has the basic elements of the offer and what you’re
offering and you send it to a list that’s psychographically and
demographically targeted, you’ll get some response. Is that
saying that the list is more important? No.
What it’s saying is that without understanding the list you’re

going after, you’re making a huge mistake writing copy in a
vacuum, so the point for your copywriters on this list, I can tell
you that over 30 years of working with the best copywriters
alive, ever, who have ever lived, a copywriter who’s not
interested in the lists I’m mailing, the lists that have worked, the
lists that haven’t worked, that hasn’t asked me for a list history
of the product I’m working on, I’m almost always going to
disqualify them, especially if they’re a new writer and they’re a
writer who thinks they can write a control package, not
understand the list universe at all.
Now, as far as the test panels themselves, the copywriter has

to leave it up to the mailer to figure out how to do the test
panels and make sure that they do them scientifically correct
and make sure that they’re demographically similar and they
do the splits right for the test panels and that they’re selecting
the list properly. It’s not the copywriter’s job to necessarily
select the lists, but to not ask about the lists and the makeup –
you know what? A great copywriter is not only going to get a list
history from his client to see what lists they’re mailing. Once
they have that list of lists they’re mailing, a good copywriter is
going to find out what are the control packages that got those
lists, or where the promotions that got those lists? Think about
all the things a copywriter can learn about the lists they’re going
after when they can see the people that are on the list and what
they responded to previously.
Michael: So in some essence, it’s really not a level playing field when
we’re talking about all the copywriters who are writing for
control packages because ultimately it’s up to Boardroom in
their list management –
Brian: No, that’s not true. You didn’t understand what I said. It is up to
Boardroom to have the proper list universe to mail, that’s true,
so the copywriter has to choose clients who know what they’re
doing, but it’s totally up to the copywriter to, once they choose
their client correctly, they’re writing a package for a particular
universe that has a control package –
Michael: I understand, and they know what list it’s going to before they
write the package.
Brian: They should be asking about that.
Michael: Because that’s their market.
Brian: That’s their market, right. So, yes, if you have a client that
doesn’t know what the hell they’re doing, sure the copywriter’s
never going to get a control and the odds of the mailer being in
business for the long haul is slim also, so the question was kind
of the wrong question. The question really is what can you do
as a copywriter to stack the odds in your favor to get a winner?
But you’re only going to work with clients who understand direct
marketing principles.
Michael: Can we talk a little bit about the importance of the list? What it
looked like in Boardroom and your involvement in the list
selection? That’s a huge part of -

Brian: Yeah, it’s my life blood. I was in the list business for 20 years.
That’s what I did. So, if you’re doing list selection, you want to
be able to analyze the list. What I said before, the promotion
that got the name is critical, so through all of my research,
whether it’s my years in direct mail or currently now when I’m
looking at affiliate deals and lists that I want to mail my
promotion to online or my clients’ promotion online, I want to
see what’s the promotion that got that name? What kind of
approach did they use to bring that list on file? Beyond that, you
need to be a slave to RFM – recency, frequency, monetary –
which is the science of list selection and it’s as true today as it
was 50 years ago. Recency, the R, is how recently have they
responded, and the more recent they’ve responded to
something, the hotter it is. Frequency; how often do they
respond? Are they multi-buyers? Are they multi-responders?
Do they respond to multiple offers? And monetary, how much
did they spend and what do they spend their money on? All of
those factors, when you’re doing list selection, are critical.
Again, if you’re a copywriter, not understanding RFM, not

understanding lifetime value, not understanding these basic
concepts, I think puts you at a deficit against other copywriters
who understand those things. Because you’re writing to people
– just a simple thing like this; you go to a client and you’re going
to write a package for them, you need to understand am I
writing to people who bought a product before or not? Am I
writing to people who understand this brand that I’m writing
under or not? Am I writing to people who are wedded to this
brand or product in some way beyond what the new product is?
And if I don’t understand those basics about who I’m writing to,
I’m going to lose, and if I don’t write versions of my copy to
different list segments, I’m going to lose.
Writing to the house list vs. the outside list, whether it’s online
or offline, it’s a completely different message, and if I’m a
copywriter and I want to get the control – more times than not at
Boardroom, we had two controls; one for the outside list and
one for the house list. Talking to people that knew the
Boardroom brand or the Bottomline brand, and then talking to
people who never heard of us before, it’s two different copy
approaches.
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Michael: Is there a lot of fraud in the list rental industry today?
Brian: I don’t know. Growing up in the list business, there was a lot of
trust because you would rent a list for one time use. I don’t think
that fraud was rampant. I don’t’ think that people would rip off
lists indiscriminately, and as a list owner, you weren’t going to
rent your list to people who you felt might rip you off, so you
were very careful. There were a lot of checks and balances, so
the answer is no. That’s why online, it’s easier to protect
because when you’re doing affiliate deals where someone is
using your list, you’re doing the mailing of it so you can control
the messaging to your list whereas in direct mail, you would
actually send the list out to somebody and they would do it
themselves. But you would decoy your list and you would be
able to protect it pretty well.
Michael: So if I’m looking at data cards for a mailing list to consider a

direct mail package I’m going to write and I’m talking to the list
manager, what would you tell one who would be in that
situation are some must things as far as research that you
should ask that list manager before you decide if it’s a list
you’re willing to invest and test.
Brian: Well, there’s a lot. I wrote an article years ago called “Guilty
until proven innocent” and it was all about data cards, so you
have to read between the lines on a data card. I haven’t really
looked at a data card for years but I lived in data cards for 20
years, so I’ll give you a few key things. One is source; where
did the list come from? So if you can get a list that’s all from
direct mail and you’re selling through direct mail, then that’s
better than people who might have come out through the
internet or came through space advertising, and then you also
want to see what kind of approach that people use. I said this
before, getting a copy of the list that got the name, whether it
was a #10 package, whether it was a bookalogue, whether it
was a sweepstakes. How you mail is how they respond.
Michael: So what do you ask for?
Brian: A copy of the mailing piece that got the name of the list
that we’re renting.
Michael: Are most list managers willing to do that?
Brian: They should be. They should be able to get their hands on it.
Even if it’s a PDF of something, not an actual, they should be
able to tell you what it looked like. Yeah, they should. You also
want to really ask a lot of questions about recency, frequency,
and monetary. How recent are these names? Hotlines? Are
these the last three month buyers? Are they the last three
months inquiries? What did they do in the last three months?
Did they buy? Did they raise their hand? Did they get a free
report? Ask a lot of questions about recency, ask a lot of
questions about if they’re responding in the last three months,
did they buy previously? Are they multi-buyers? Because a
multi-buyer select will give you a much higher response rate,
and then what did they spend? If you’re a cataloguer or
someone with a very high ticket, how much they spent could be
a big factor.
Those are some of the basic things but most list managers will
try to hide things by saying “100% direct response generated.”
Well, what does that mean? Were they generated through
direct mail? Were they generated through space ads? All of
those things are worth knowing and usually all of those things
you can select on.
Michael: Okay, so back to Schwartz. When he was writing packages for

Boardroom, can you talk a little bit about what did his own
Instant Improvement company – what was he marketing and
selling and how was that going for him?
Brian: Health books, very alternative, a lot of Chinese medicine. They

were very small books. If I had to say, they were less
sophisticated in their content that what we were selling, than
what Rodale was selling, but he was able to compete because
his promotion was so good. He was able to get the lists, and he
was fulfilling a need for people to try a lot of alternative type of
medicine, which at the time was state of the art.
Michael: He had a stroke as well, and lost the use of – was it his left arm
or his left hand?
Brian: His right, actually; he wrote with his right and he ended up
learning how to write with his left and type with one hand with
his left.
Michael: Now, when he wrote that piece “Burn disease out of your body,”
is it true that he wrote that direct mail letter for that – I’ll call him
a doctor, because he helped him regain the use of his hand?
Brian: I don’t know the whole story on that. I think he was able to
regain a lot based on a lot of things that he did. He was one of
those guys that was such a lifelong learner and sharer that
anything that he experienced he would share in his copy. So I
don’t know all the details of that but I know there was some
truth, obviously, to that.
Michael: What does direct mail look like today? Is direct mail dead today
because of the internet?
Brian: Absolutely not. On the other hand, there’s a podcast on my

website called “Everyone’s going right, time to go left,” and it
was an interview with Joe Polish, and what we talked about in

that interview was that direct mail is going to get tougher and
tougher and it already is very tough to do acquisition and lead
generation as sort of the first step, because it’s so expensive
with postage and printing.
On the other hand, there are still people doing it because

they’re prospecting in a category that’s so saturated with online
and email, that direct mail can really get the attention. But I
think where direct mail has incredible power right now is on the
back end of an online business. Your listeners here who have
listened to me before, and I know you’ve listened to me before
as well, that I think everything has got to be considered in a
multi-channel environment. I own the URL
www.SingleChannelMarketingIsSoBoring.com. If you go to
www.SingleChannelMarketingIsSoBoring.com you’ll actually
redirect to my website, because I think that being beholden to
any one channel is just crazy, so direct mail becomes incredibly
powerful on the back end.
When I get new clients now, one of the first thing I do as a

consultant is I really try to pick apart their house lists and see
what lists do they own, and more times than not there’s a
segment of their list that might have been generated initially
through the online environment that are spending a lot of
money with them, that they could actually invest in a major
direct mail campaign to sell even a higher priced product, and
actually the package itself in a small quantity could be
something three dimensional, could be a book, could be
something of tremendous value, because the idea of investing
in someone who’s already spent a lot of money with you,
investing even more money in media called direct mail.
Direct mail can be mailing 100 pieces as opposed to a million,

so when people say direct mail is dead, I think what they’re
talking about is the hundreds of millions of names that we used
to mail, and maybe that piece of the business, if it’s not dead,
it’s certainly on life support because it’s just hard to mail

millions of names profitably unless you know what you’re doing.
But if you can incorporate the elements of direct mail marketing
into everything that you do on the back end of the business or
even if it’s on the front end of something that’s going to end up
being very high ticket in the end and you have a very targeted
list, I think direct mail still has a tremendous viability. But like
everything else, it’s got to be done with a lot of care and
because it’s pricy, but direct mail is not dead. In fact, I know
someone in my mastermind group who’s going to build a $100
million business and the foundation is going to be on direct
mail.
Michael: That’s fantastic. Can you share with me a huge failure that you
experienced or witnessed in Boardroom, and what was the
lesson you learned?
Brian: A couple of big ones. One was probably under the heading
called “don’t believe your press releases.” There’s a long story
that goes with our launching of an amazing infomercial program
on direct response television. It was in the mid-2000s and it
took me 20 years to figure out how to do infomercials but when
I finally figured it out in the mid-2000s, we went out with like 4
or 5 of our first infomercials all were incredible successes. If
you looked at the whole infomercial direct response TV
franchise and how it brought back to direct mail and online, it
was probably $250-300 million over a three year period.
Michael: Was that selling books?
Brian: Selling mostly health books. So when we got something to

work, a lot of people told me – I got 4 out of 5 to work right
away – they told me this is unheard of. The odds for an
infomercial working was 1 in 15, maybe 1 in 20, and of course I
started getting kind of big for my britches and I started thinking I
got the formula, I know how to do this, and we started doing a
bunch of infomercials in different subject areas, trying to use
some of the same formula, but kind of branching out, and

infomercials were expensive. You’re talking about a very high
investment in promotion, in development costs –
Michael: How much?
Brian: Minimum, $100-150 thousand but you could spend a million,

$1.5 million on a show, and the irony is that the media you go
out with to test it is probably $15000-20000 and then when that
doesn’t’ work, you know you’re either in or you’re out. It’s not
like direct mail or online where you can start revising and figure
out how to make it work and tweak it. You’re dead, basically.
You have to start from scratch, for the most part.
I would say we did 7 or 8 infomercials after those 3 or 4 and

every one failed. Now, when you have $200 million cushion to
work with, even if those 7 or 8 cost me a few hundred thousand
dollars each, I still probably took, of the $200 million, I probably
took about $3 million of it and threw it out the window. I don’t
know if I would have done differently except for the fact that I
probably was a little less cautious as I did each one because I
was overly confident that I could produce the same kind of
success again, so it’s a simple lesson of “don’t read your press
clippings,” but also in marketing, the line between success and
failure is so thin, and so really, really not being flippant about
any of that is critical.
I think another big, big mistake in my career is as we started

moving from offline to online, I made a huge mistake because I
was not an expert in online and yet I wanted to be. I put myself
in really good position. I got myself involved in – probably not
fast enough – involved in mastermind groups, involved with
people who were kind of doing great stuff online, but I kind of
got sold a lot of bill of goods without doing my own due
diligence. It’s a classic case of doing what you do best. I like the
idea of outsourcing and buying stuff around the corner, but
when you buy it around the corner, you still have to make sure
that your oversight is solid, especially if it’s the future and you’re
investing a lot in it. So like a lot of offline publishers, we threw a
lot of good money after bad as far as online marketing and web
and all that. I’d say we actually spent less than most because
we didn’t invest too much in infrastructure, but in retrospect I
think I trusted too many opinions of people that were not as
expert as I thought, and that was my thought.
So that’s a due diligence on what people’s real expertise is, and

I think there are so many better tools today, but in terms of HR
and track record of models that work that I don’t think I would
make that mistake again on behalf of a client. It was a little bit
of wild, wild west and I wasn’t as cautious as I should have
been, and I trusted the judgement of people who I assumed
knew more than me and they probably didn’t, and that was a
big mistake on my part.
You’re listening to an exclusive interview found on Michael Senoff’s

www.HardToFindSemiars.com.
Michael: With the infomercials, what was the net effect? You had three
wins and you had more losses, but did those three wins make
up for all the losses?
Brian: Yeah, the three wins were probably responsible because I

added direct mail to those three wins, I added online marketing
to those three wins. They probably accounted for $200-300
million somewhere. Each loss was – call it a couple hundred
thousand.
Michael: And you couldn’t really put your finger on or figure out the
reason of the failures?
Brian: I have a saying that I’ve predicted every test that I’ve ever done
in my career with 100% accuracy once I had the results, so
once I had the results, it was obvious why each one didn’t work.
On two of them in particular that I loved – well, one of them I
loved and it was such a good show – I still believe it’s a good
show but it didn’t work because it was about prevention. It
wasn’t about cures and in the health area it’s really difficult to
sell prevention. It’s actually difficult to sell prevention in
anything.
And the other one that didn’t work was way too comical. We
actually tried to inject a lot more humor and they say in direct
mail humor can’t work, or in direct marketing you shouldn’t use
humor, and I’ve seen levels of humor work, but this was too
sarcastic, too funny, too much about entertainment, and not
about the information which was really very serious, and I think
at the time it felt great but then we realized that the information
that we’re selling is serious. It’s life or death. It’s health
information.
The shows that worked all had Hugh Downs or some credible
news person and a health editor and experts in the field. So,
when I took that out, the experts didn’t fit well when I threw
them in with humor, and they didn’t fit in when I fit them in with
prevention as opposed to cure, so I was able to figure out why
but at the time, as I said, I really felt I had great content. In
every case, I had great content to deliver. This is also another
lesson. You think you’ve got great content and anybody who
gets this content is going to improve their life. Great, but how do
you present it if it’s not congruent with what the consumer really
wants? You’re going to be paddling upstream.
Michael: When you take some chances on that, and I know it’s a team
effort and Marty I would think was involved with the whole
process –
Brian: He wasn’t involved much at all in the infomercial process.
Michael: Were you bummed out? Was it stressful when you’re losing
money like that, as an employee for them?

Brian: It was stressful because I really thought we could get

another big winner.
Michael: Did you keep trying for that big winner or did you pretty much
say let’s be happy with what we have, with those three wins?
Brian: No, I kept trying, of course.
Michael: Did you get another big winner, infomercial?
Brian: I did not.
Michael: So what made you stop?
Brian: My doctor. My head hurts. I had to stop banging my head

against the wall. It hurts. Maybe you should stop banging your
head against the wall. But I also saw some signs that were not
just about us. I’m not that stupid, but there were some signs
that the infomercial business was changing, too. The advent of
Tivo at the time and then DVR, I think the business was
changing. That’s what kind of moved me out of it as well, but it
was really a function of realizing that we had a magical run with
a series of products and then the other products that we
thought could work just didn’t, and it is what it is.
Michael: How about with the direct mail pieces? How many losers are
there compared to winners? What does that look like for
somebody who has no clue?
Brian: A winner to me in direct mail, I want to get at least a 30% list in

response and it’s a very small percentage that get 30% lists in
response.
Michael: Clarify on that. What do you mean?

Brian: If I have a control that’s indexing 100, I want to get at least 130
in terms of my net index, so if I get a net index of 15, I get a 115
–
Michael: All right, you got to put it in English. These people don’t know
what net indexes are.
Brian: Okay, so basically, what I’m saying is that if I get a 1%

response, I want to get at least a 1.3% net response. In other
words, remember when we talked about P&L is the most
important, so whether they’re paying up front or not, so it’s 1%
vs. 1.3%. To get 1.3% is significant from 1.0%. If I get a 1.15%,
it’s still fairly significant and usually I can get a new control that
way, so the times you get a 1.15% or a 1.3% - and again, I’m
using 1% as my number – it could be 2% and then I need the
30% would be 2.7. You understand what I’m saying, right?
Michael: Yes.
Brian: You’re not going to get winners like that more than probably 10
or 15% of the time at best, and usually it’s because you went
out to a new copywriter or a new piece of creative and did it
from scratch and therefore changed the game in that particular
product, so tweaks like changing a headline or changing a
cover or changing an adder envelope, or changing a subject
line in an email, those usually won’t get you 30% lifts. They
might, but that’s very, very rare. That’s like way less than 10%.
Michael: So with each test package, you say would go out to 25,000
names?
Brian: In direct mail? Yes.
Michael: Okay, so if you show some promising results with the first test
of 25,000 names, what’s the next step up with the same
package, as far as quantity of names, and how do you protect
yourself from not losing on the next mailing?
Brian: Well, you’ve got to strike while the iron is hot, so you’re either
going to call it a new control or not, so on a list, you want to
pyramid slowly, pyramid meaning the next test, so forget
creative tests for a second. If it was a list test of 25,000 and it
worked fairly well, and there was a million names available on
that list, I might only go from 25 to 250,000. I’ll go like 10 times,
maybe. If I have a creative panel of 25,000 against another
control panel of 25,000 and I get a significant, over a 15% lift,
I’m going out with the new package, the 25,000 winner, as the
control in the next mailing, which could go out to a million
names.
What I might do in addition to that is do what we call a back

test, so a back test would be that I would take the old control
and make sure that I have a 25,000 name test panel in the next
mailing of the old control against the new control of a 25,000
names test panel in addition to all the other tests, so at least I
will confirm how much of the list I really got. But I got to tell you,
you do a 25,000 name panel for a new piece of creative, get
more than a 15-20% lift in response rate, I don’t care how big
my mailing is. I will probably roll that new package to the entire
list.
Michael: Have you ever lost on something like that?
Brian: No. You get the same. That would be like the worst, right? And
one of the things people should know, and this is something we
did test and people do – a lot of times they have a thing called
double flighting controls. So, remember I gave you the example
of a million piece mailing and you’ve got 200,000 pieces of test
panels, so you’ve got 8 25,000 name test panels. In some
cases, we would actually have two 25,000 panels of control,
like exactly the same.
The reason you’d do that is that even if you can split the lists up
to be demographically similar, a cross section of all the different
tests panels, we would often see discrepancies between two

panels of the same creative package that could be different in
response rate by as much as 10 or 15%. That 15% lift is sort of
the minimum you want to go with in order to roll out completely.
What happens is if I’ve got two control packages in a big
mailing and one does 100 and one does 115 and I have
another test panel that’s doing 125, is the 125 better than the
115 or the 100? And then I take the 100 and the 115, which are
the two identical control packages, call it a 108, and now I think
with my 125 test panel, I’m even more confident that I probably
have an even bigger winner, but that’s why you don’t want to
roll out without a decent lift.
If I only got one test panel that indexed like 106, like 6% better,
that might not be enough for me to roll out to a big mailing with
that on the next mailing, because it could have been a 94 as
well as it could have been a 106, so there’s a lot of detail there.
The big issue is you’ve got to believe your numbers and you got
to get a big enough lift to say I’m confident that this lift is going
to hold up when I roll out.
Michael: I want to be respectful of your time so we’re going to start

wrapping it up. I want to ask you why did you leave Boardroom
and what are you doing now?
Brian: I spent 34 years helping build the company. When I got to

Boardroom in 1981, I said it was about a $3 million business.
Marty and I grew it to $157 million in the mid-2000s – a lot to do
with that whole infomercial business that we did – I think our
biggest year was $157 million. We were $100 million for a good
chunk of the time that I was there. I was a partner in the
business, I had equity in the business, and I got to a point
where I kind of wanted to figure out some other direction for the
company. It’s a family owned business so I didn’t have
complete control of what I wanted, so in a cordial way, I
decided I’m not going to be able to do what I want to do with
these particular assets long term, so I left on really good terms.
The family wants the company to go in a little bit different

direction, and that’s fine. I wish them well. I still wish them well.
I have a lot of friends and people there that I love very much.
I only left this past year, so in the last year what I’ve done with
my own business, which is called Titans Marketing, is I’ve
developed my own mastermind group. Right now I’ve got a
group of 23 incredible companies and entrepreneurs who are
just really interested in multi-channel marketing, interested in
building their business 10x and building their impact 10x even
more than their business, so I’m working closely with that group
and that’s like my core group of clients, but it’s really more of a
regular mastermind group.
And then I’ve got a lot of consulting clients, a few of which I’m
really immersed with, whether I have a position on the board or
whether I Have an equity position in the company or I’m
developing an equity position in the company or I’m on retainer.
I also do like hourly type consulting. I coach with young
entrepreneurs. I also do some consulting where I’ll do day rate
for certain clients who just want to spend a full day
brainstorming their marketing plan, so I’ve done a few of those,
and then I’m going to create some products.
I’ve got a product I want to do, speaking of copywriters. I’m

going to do a product with AWAI called “Marketing Essentials
Every Copywriter Needs to Know.” A lot of the things on this
call are things I’m going to have in this course, things like
copywriters really understanding lists. That’s a big, big thing.
I’m glad you asked the question because that’s a big thing for
me.
Michael: What does your mastermind look like? How much is it?
Brian: The mastermind is $20,000 a year. I’ll never have more than 30
companies in the mastermind because I want to keep it
intimate, and I have to interview people to get them in. I
interviewed I think 40 companies to get the 23 that I have in

now.
Michael: And what do they get for $20,000 a year?
Brian: It’s three 2-day live meetings. We meet for two full days, three
times a year, and that’s hot seats, that’s guest speakers, that’s
presentations from the members. It’s a pretty intense two days
of content, people helping each other with their businesses. It’s
a pretty good offering. Then the other 9 months where we don’t
meet are months where we have a phone call and on those
phone calls, I have guest speakers that we do, mini discussions
on various topics, people can then have office hours with me. I
do one on one consulting with people who are in the
mastermind when they need it.
Michael: Where can one learn more about the mastermind program?
Brian: I think people should just email me if they’re interested,

because I have to set them up for an interview.
Michael: Give your email again.
Brian: They should go to [email protected]. Now, I’m also going

to do what I call Titans master classes, and those are going to
be 2-day events, all hot seats, probably 30 people for two full
days, and that’ll be priced more as like a onetime event and not
as a mastermind, so I’m thinking somewhere in the
neighborhood of $5000, maybe a little less. I haven’t decided
yet for the two days but it’ll include a lot of content, potential
guests, hot seats for every company that participates, and I did
a similar thing at my Titans event and it was very, very
successful, so if people want to be on my list, they should just
go to www.BrianKurtz.me. And they can just opt in to my list. I
blog there and when I decide to do these master classes, I’ll
probably be talking about them there. That would be another
way for me to connect with people on your list if they’re
interested in learning more from me without having to join a full

year of mastermind.
Michael: Now, what if I wanted you for a day, if you would have me?
What do you generally get for a day’s worth of consulting?
Brian: Right now my day rate is $11,000 a day plus travel. I do that on
a selective basis because I can’t afford to travel as much as I
have been, but I like doing that if it’s the right company and the
right fit. I do Skype calls at $1000 an hour with a little bit of prep
and a little bit of post, but not a lot. On the $11,000 day, that
includes prep work and on the post, where I really know I can
help, is my resources because I can suggest resources and do
stuff on the back end, so it’s way more than 11 hours for the
$11,000. It’s more like 14 hours. So that’s the day rate, that’s
the hourly rate, but I’m more interested in longer term
relationships, so I love doing retainer agreements. But I like
being involved with companies who really want to grow, who
really want to move their businesses forward and want to do
multi-channel marketing in particular. So that’s kind of where
my biggest desire is at this point.
Michael: I got to ask you this. Are you using any direct mail to help you
facilitate new clients?
Brian: Yeah, I do. I’ll give you an example. I hosted a dinner in Arizona
with some amazing people. I was at Joe Polish’s event and I
put together what I call the Boardroom dinners. They’re pretty
famous. And I put together this 14 person dinner and after the
dinner, I sent them an email thanking them for coming and gave
them a PDF of everybody who was there, but then I sent each
one of them an individual note with a book that was written but
one of the people that was at the dinner, not asking for
anything. But frankly, that’s direct mail. Those are 14 superstars
around the table. I have no idea if I’ll ever do business with
them. Every one of them I just want to be friends with for the
rest of my life.
Michael: So you put that together, that dinner?
Brian: Yes, with my buddy, Richard Rossi, who’s in my mastermind.

So yeah, the two of us put it together, but I can do those all the
time. I have a PDF, if you want, you can share it with your
audience, it’s called the Boardroom Dinners, and there was a
chapter in a book from Rick Frischman called “Networking
Magic.” I think anybody can do them, to be able to put together
dinners of great people –
Michael: Didn’t I hear Edelston used to do those with Schwartz?
Brian: Yeah, Marty invented them and we continued them. It’s a

concept that’s been out there for a while and more people
should do it.
Michael: Wonderful. Look, I Know you got to go and we’ve covered a lot
of great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to
share all your wisdom and insight and I’m certain that we’re
going to be able to introduce you to a few people on my list who
never knew about you, and I hope you’re able to establish
some relationships from the time you’ve invested with me and
my listeners.
Brian: That’s great. I really enjoyed it.
Michael: Brian, have a kickass day. Thank you.
Brian: You too.
Michael: Bye-bye.
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What are the two basic concepts every copywriter needs to understand according to Brian Kurtz?

What are the two basic concepts every copywriter needs to understand according to Brian Kurtz?

What does Brian Kurtz say is important to do when striking while the iron is hot?

What does Brian Kurtz say is important to do when striking while the iron is hot?

For more interviews on marketing consulting go to http://www.HardToFindSeminars.

Brian Kurtz Interview

Learn How A Legendary Copywriters

You’ll Also Hear . . .

* The 2 basic concepts every copywriter needs to understand (RFM and

* At the height of his infomercial success, he was responsible for buying

Never underestimate the power of copy, especially if you’re looking at it as a

PS. I am not promoting any of Brian products or memberships and I do NOT

Michael: Hi. I’m Michael Senoff, founder and CEO of

Brian: Hey, Michael, how are you?

Michael: I’m great, Brian. How are you doing?

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Brian: I’m doing well.

Michael: You have a good weekend?

Brian: I did. I did. You?

Brian: There you go.

Michael: I’ve got a combination of entrepreneurs, copywriters, and

Brian: Yeah, he did pretty well with it.

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Michael: Ben is an incredible email marketer.

Brian: He really is.

Michael: Absolutely. Very impressive. I know you’ve got interviews out

Brian: I can go in a lot of directions.

Brian: I can certainly direct people to a site, I certainly would want

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Michael: Definitely. What would you like out of it?

Brian: I’m always interested in doing these interviews because I’m

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At the time, Boardroom managed its mailing list in house. Most

Michael: How many subscribers?

Brian: I think Boardroom Reports at the time probably had 150,000;

just launched when I got there, so they had maybe 50,000

Michael: So you remember that interview, the first day?

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ripped phone books from 3 million population of boroughs in

Michael: That’s impressive.

Brian: I’m not going to mess with this guy.

Michael: Did you ever see him rip one?

Brian: I did. I did. It was pretty cool. I actually have a photograph of

Michael: How did he die?

Brian: January of 2001 is when he had a stroke. It was before 9/11;

You’re listening to an exclusive interview on Michael Senoff’s

Brian: I was actually the representative in the marketplace to rent the

Brian: There were so many. One would be Eugene Schwartz, author

Michael: That’s very cool.

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My joke is that I probably could have died then and had a

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Michael: What’s hypertext?

Brian: Basically, he invented being able to get the summarized

Michael: That was launched back in 1972?

Brian: Oh, many promotions. When we launched Boardroom reports

pressure or whatever, if you can get some information on that