GE Gas Turbine accessory and load gear compartments temperature running

high
GT's Turbine accessory and load gear compartments temperature are running
very high close to trip value of 450F.

By Abdur Rehman on 12 June, 2013 - 3:27 pm

we have GE frame5 Model R gas turbine at our plant. We use to run this GT
by keeping its turbine, accessory, and load gear compartment doors open. A
month ago we closed the doors and afterwards operator observed that
compartment temperature had been raised near to trip value of 450F. so,we
again opened the door to normalize the temperature in the compartments.
Kindly suggest is it in GE design to operate this GT by keeping doors
closed or open?

Secondly we are planning to install thermocouples with in the turbine and

accessory compartments for online monitoring of temperature on Mark V
HMI. this is some thing which is not in the design of This GT. is it feasible?
if yes, then what should be the location of thermocouples in compartments?
and at what temperature alarm must be configured on these thermocouples?

Also please share the design flow and pressure of pressurizing fan
(ventilation fan) which it maintains in turbine and load gear compartments
for this model of GE gas turbine. In our case ventilation fan is not working
properly.

By CSA on 13 June, 2013 - 1:10 am

Abdur Rehman,

Running with compartment doors open means if a real fire is detected and
extinguishing agent is discharged, the extinguishing agent will not be
effective because it will not remain in the compartment.

Also, air will be allowed to enter the compartment through the open doors,
and since air contains oxygen which is required for combustion the fire
will not be starved for oxygen as it should be if the compartment doors are
closed and the ventilation louvers (gravity-operated and/or latched) are
working correctly.

If you have a Frame 5 heavy duty gas turbine packaged by GE (not one of
its licensed turbine packagers) then you should be able to find a P&ID
called 'Heating & Vent Flow' or something similar. If the unit is older,
many of these diagrams listed heat loads and sometimes air flows, though
not always.

As for fan flow ratings, every GE-design heavy duty gas turbine package
was different, and depending on the ambient and customer requirements so
were the ventilation fans and schemes.

Most of the time when I troubleshoot high compartment temperatures I

find the ventilation louvers are not working properly, especially any
latched dampers/louvers. The latches are operated by fire extinguishing
agent pressure (when discharged) and when unlatched by fire
extinguishing agent pressure large weights close the louvers/dampers with
gravity. Most sites are completely unaware of these latches and never
check to make sure the dampers/latches are properly opened/latched after
maintenance outages or fire extinguishing agent discharge.
Also, many times I find ventilation fans running backwards. GE, and some
of its packagers, used quite a number of reverse tangential centrifugal fans
which actually turn in the opposite direction from what one would expect
(when running in the proper direction and producing proper air flow) by
looking at the angle of the fan blades. When running in the opposite
direction, they also draw excessive current while producing much lower
air flows--which usually causes technicians/electricans to change thermal
overload relays to higher ratings to keep the motor starters from tripping.
Which usually leads to premature failures of the vent fan motors.

So, make sure the compartment ventilation dampers/louvers are working

properly, are latched open (if so equipped), and that vent fans are running
in the proper direction. One way to be sure vent fans are running in the
proper direction and producing near rated air flow is to use a clamp-on
ammeter to check the current being drawn by the motor. If the measured
current is at or near the motor nameplate rating then the fan is producing at
or near rated air flow. If the measured current is less than or much less than
rated, then the fan is not producing rated air flow. If the measured current
is more or much more than rated, then it's probably not producing rated air
flow--and just exchanging any two of the motor's three phase leads to
reverse direction and re-checking current and air flow may help solve the
problem.

Finally, if you are still having problems, then it would be wise to get
someone knowledgeable to site to help with the problem. Because running
with compartment doors open is asking for BIG trouble if a real fire ever
does occur!

Please write back to let us know how you fare in resolving your problems.

Installing T/Cs in compartments isn't going to do a darn thing to help

reduce compartment air temperatures. Nothing. If fact, it can be very
misleading if the T/Cs are not placed in strategic locations (which will
vary with compartment configuration). (Which leads to question: How do
you know what the compartment temperature(s) is(are) without some kind
of sensing device--unless the high-high compartment temp switches are
activating, in which case, you are really "playing with fire" by blocking the
trip!)

Lastly, exhaust leaks are another common cause of high load compartment
temperatures.
Best of luck!

By Abdur Rehman on 14 June, 2013 - 5:16 pm

firstly,thanks for your detail reply.

1-there is no fire extinguishing mechanism in our GT which can be

actuated automatically on fire. This is something not incorporated in the
GE frame5 GT we have.

2-No P&ID is available for ventilation system of this GT.

3-You right in saying that ventilation fan is not working properly and we
are also suspecting this. Fan and dampers checkup is on its way.

4-We conducted the thermovision monitoring of our GT. Temperature

around exhaust plenum in load gear compartment is about 650F. This
gives an indication of leakage there. We are planning to address this as
well.
5-We have 4 thermal fire detectors installed in Turbine Compartment
having trip at 450F. One thermal fire detector in load gear compartment
having trip at 450F. Two thermal fire detectors in accessory compartment
and one in generator compartment having trip at 325F respectively.

6-After addressing the all suspected causes of temperature rise,we will

close Gt doors and to have online monitoring of running temperatures,
we are planning to install four thermocouples. Two in each turbine and
load gear compartments near already installed fire detectors. Could you
please suggest that at which temperature alarm should be configured
(2oo2 logic) on these thermocouples,to warn the operating staff about the
rising temperature well before the Tripping values (mentioned above).

7-Could you share the specification of these thermocouples. If you have

any in your record.

8-Could you please also suggest the normal pressure in the GE frame5
Model R gas turbine compartments if we have pressurizing fan operating
normally with Gt doors closed.
By otised on 15 June, 2013 - 11:32 am

> 2-No P&ID is available for ventilation system of this GT.

Note: GE calls their gas turbine P&ID's "Piping Schematics"

If you have the Device Summary (also known as the 0414 drawing), it
should list all the Piping Schematics.

By Abdur Rehman on 5 August, 2013 - 12:42 am

please provide more help in this regard. The issue of high temperature
is still persisting.

Dear CSA

we are planning to have thermocouples ionstalled near already

installed fire detectors, and only alarm is to be configured on these
thermocouples. please suggest if it is going to work for online
monitoring of temperature?
By CSA on 6 August, 2013 - 12:12 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Abdur Rehman,

> We are planning to have thermocouples installed near already

installed fire
> detectors, and only alarm is to be configured on these
thermocouples.
> please suggest if it is going to work for online monitoring of
temperature?

The Mark V can accept most all types of T/Cs; check the Mark V
Maintenance Manual, GEH-6195, for more information.

As for the style of T/C, try www.omega.com. They have excellent

publications for just about every type of sensor, detailing how they
work, installation methods, and examples.
However, it's not clear how installing temperature sensors near the
fire detectors is going to solve the problem of insufficient cooling. It
may prevent nuisance trips by allowing operators to open the doors,
or lower load, but does that solve the root problem: insufficient
cooling?

You have NOT answered any of the questions about damper

operation, or cooling fan rotation. You have not provided current
measurements of the existing cooling fan motor(s) versus the motor
nameplate rating. Current is directly proportional to the work done by
the motor, and if the current drawn by a motor is not nearly equal to
the motor rating then it's a safe bet the motor isn't working very hard.
It's not very common to use a more powerful (and expensive) motor
than the application (in this case, a fan) requires. The fan will only
draw as much current as it requires to move the air. It's customary to
use motors rated to provide nearly the same amount of power as the
device it is driving is required.

Simply measuring the temperature in the area of the fire detectors

isn't going to help resolve the problem of insufficient cooling. If the
unit was working fine for some time, but then the doors were opened
because of high temperature, and now someone (usually someone in
management) wants to simply close the doors but the high
temperature problem is not resolved, wasting money and time (which
is also money!) installing T/Cs isn't going to solve the root cause of
the problem: insufficient cooling.

So, what's changed since the time the unit was run with the doors
closed, to the time it was started being run with the doors open?

Help us to help you. We can't provide more help without answers to

the questions that have already been asked. Again, help us to help you
by providing the requested information. We aren't there to see your
specific installation. It's not common for turbines to be run without
automatic fire extinguishing systems, so this is unusual--at least in my
experience.

All GE Frame 5s suck (draw air into the compressor), squeeze

(compress the air), burn (combust fuel to make high temperature,
high pressure gases to input to the turbine section), and blow
(exhaust). The physics are the same, but the actual configuration of
the package the turbine is provided in and the auxiliaries it's provided
can--and do--vary. I've been to multi-unit sites, where the turbines
(same Frame size) were purchased and installed several years apart,
and while they are similarly rated (power output), the packages
(enclosures) and auxiliaries can be very, very different. They all start
with the "push of a button" (or the click of a mouse these days), and
they all burn fuel and exhaust high temperature gases, but the
similarities end there many times. Even for the same series of
turbines.

Wish we could be more help. But without answers, just suggesting

things is a waste of everyone's time. If we suggest something you've
already done--but you didn't tell us until after we suggest it--is that a
good use of anyone's time?

We feel your frustration, but there's only so much we can do without

your assistance.

By Abdur Rehman on 6 August, 2013 - 11:29 pm

Dear CSA ....

I am working on this issue particularly on the pressurizing fan. Will
definitely reply you with details of it within few days.

T/C installation will be just to monitor the temp after sorting out the
true cause of temp rise and solving it.

thanks for sharing the info.

By CSA on 8 August, 2013 - 2:44 pm

Abdur Rehman,

Thanks for the feedback.

As a bit of added information, every GE-design heavy duty gas

turbine I have EVER worked on had either positive or negative
pressures in the compartments when the ventilation fans and dampers
and louvers were working properly.

If a fan is pressurizing a compartment, when the doors are closed and

some walks up to the door and opens it it will "fly" open (often
scaring the person opening the door if they are not expecting it!).
And, if the fan is taking a suction on the compartment if someone
attempts to open a compartment door it will take a great deal of effort
to open.

These both assume that either the air being pushed into the
compartment by a pressurizing fan can get out through the
compartment's exit dampers and louvers (quite often they get stuck),
or the air being drawn out of the compartment can be "replenished"
by air being drawn into the compartment through the entrance
dampers and louvers. In either case, air needs to get out of the
compartment (in the case of pressurization by the fan) or into the
compartment (in the case of the fan drawing a suction on the
compartment) for cooling to work properly.

If the exit dampers or louvers are not working properly, the positive
pressure will be higher than it should be and the doors will really
"fly" open when unlatched. If the entrance dampers or louvers are not
working properly the negative pressure will be higher than it should
be and it will take a great deal of force to open the compartment
doors.
Some fans have dampers or louvers on the suction side of the fan, and
some on the discharge side of the fan, which must also be working
properly.

In essence, what you need to solve is: Why is the air flowing into (or
out of) the compartment not sufficient to cool the compartment
properly?

If you resolve the air flow problem (fan; dampers; louvers) you can
use an infrared heat gun (always aimed at the same location/device in
the compartment) to measure changes in temperature. You could do
that whilst troubleshooting, also.

Of course, this requires a human to get up out of his chair, and go out
of the air-conditioned control room or office and take a measurement;
not as easy as an operator pointing to a value on a display....

We are looking forward to hearing the resolution(s)!

By WillyBlackson on 25 April, 2016 - 7:13 am

Please kindly tell me the right direction of rotation of 88vg load gear
compartment vent fan motors. should it be blowing or sucking?

Thanks

By CSA on 25 April, 2016 - 10:39 am

WillyBlackson,

If you're working on GE-design heavy duty gas turbines, the 'Heating

& Ventilating Flow Diagram'--one of the group of Schematic Piping
Diagrams, or P&IDs (Piping & Instrumentation Diagrams)--will
show whether fans are used to pressurize or evacuate compartments
with very simple arrows showing the direction of air flow into,
through and out of the compartment.

You should know that it's quite common for some compartment to be
pressurized and others to be under a slight vacuum--on the SAME
turbine. The common thought is that all compartment should be under
pressure by the vent fan, or all compartment should be under a slight
vacuum by the vent fan--but, unfortunately, that's not always the case,
and frequently compartments of the same unit are under pressure and
vacuum when proper ventilation is being provided.

But, the 'Heating and Ventilation Flow Diagram' provided with every
GE-design heavy duty gas turbine package will definitely show air
flows through the compartment. There is usually a tab in the
Operation, Maintenance and Parts manuals provided with GE-design
heavy duty gas turbines with all of the P&IDs (Piping Schematics, or
Schematic Piping Diagrams as GE calls them), and the 'Heating &
Ventilation Flow Diagram' will be included with them. Or, some
manuals have individual tabs/sections with descriptions of every
system, and you should be able to locate the 'Heating & Ventilation'
tab/section and find information there.

One thing to know about some of the vent fans provided with many
GE-design heavy duty gas turbines is that they frequently supply
what are called 'reverse-tangential' centrifugal fans. This means that
the fans rotate OPPOSITE to the direction one would generally think
a centrifugal blower (fan) would rotate based on the angle of the fan
blades. Reverse-tangential fans can move more air than their "non-
reverse" counterparts for the same energy input (from the AC motor
driving the fan).

Reverse-tangential fans, if operated in the wrong direction of rotation,

will draw excessive current--over and above the AC motor nameplate.
And, they will also move less air--though it will still be in the same
direction!

Unfortunately, the direction of rotation arrow the vent fan

manufacturer paints on the fan housing before they ship the fan to the
turbine packager usually gets painted over either by the packager or
by the owner. So, the question often comes up--which direction is
correct? And, unfortunately, because GE-design turbine packagers
were prone to using reverse-tangential design fans the question is not
easily answered.

So, the "easy" way to determine if the fan is rotating in the proper
direction is to measure the current drawn by the motor and compare it
to the motor nameplate rating. If the current is equal to or slightly less
than the motor nameplate rating (presuming all the dampers and
doors are in their proper operating positions!!!) then the motor/fan is
likely rotating in the proper direction. If the current is more than the
motor nameplate rating, then the motor is likely rotating in the wrong
direction.

Hope this helps!

By Leentje Adams on 16 April, 2018 - 12:19 pm

In general, are the customers whose load gear compartments are

under vacuum having the same issue(s) and those under pressure?

>You should know that it's quite common for some compartment
>to be pressurized and others to be under a slight vacuum--on
>the SAME turbine. The common thought is that all compartment
>should be under pressure by the vent fan, or all compartment
>should be under a slight vacuum by the vent fan--but,
>unfortunately, that's not always the case, and frequently
>compartments of the same unit are under pressure and vacuum
>when proper ventilation is being provided.
 By CSA on 16 April, 2018 - 11:03 pm

In general, if there is poor airflow and/or hot air leaks, then yes. The
direction of airflow (into or out of the vent fans) doesn't matter.

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