Wednesday, September 8, 2010

Houston rabbis condemn use of internet for slander & lashon harah

Posted by Daas Torah at 2:00 PM

19 comments:
Dave said...

Wasn't there an event in Texas this blog covered and then deleted?
September 8, 2010 2:43 PM
Daas Torah said...

Rav Ovadiah Yosef (Yechava Daas 4:60): … In fact this is the way to understand the verse regarding
lashon harah. “Do not speak lashon harah but don’t stand idly by concerning the blood of your
 fellow.” Even though there is a prohibition of lashon harah, nevertheless the second clause of the
verse tells you that it is conditional on this not causing harm. Therefore you are obligated to
inform others regarding certain matters in order to them to guard against loss and danger. This is
expressed in Nidah (61a) that even though it is prohibited to listen to lashon harah but you should
protect yourself from the potential danger you hear about. The Rambam (Mitzva 297) says that
protecting another’s money is also included in “don’t stand idly by concerning the blood of your
fellow.” … Therefore even if there is only a financial loss, one should inform your fellow man in
order that he can protect himself from those who want to harm him. And surely when there is a
possible danger to an individual or a group
September 8, 2010 4:11 PM
Daas Torah said...

Pischei Tshuva (O.C. 156): I want to note here that while all the books of mussar are greatly
concerned about the sin of lashon harah, I am greatly concerned about the opposite problem. I
want to protest about the even greater and more common sin of refraining from speaking
negatively when it is necessary to save someone from being harmed. For example if you saw a
person waiting in ambush to kill someone or breaking into someone’s house or store at night. Is it
conceivable that you would refrain from notifying the intended victim to protect himself from the
assailant - because of the prohibition of speaking lashon harah? By not saying anything you commit
the unbearable sin of transgressing the prohibition of Vayikra (19:16): Do not speak lashon harah
[but] do not stand idly by when the blood of your fellow man is threatened? By not speaking up,
you violate the mitzva of returning that which is lost to its owner Devarim (22:2). Now if you can
understand the obvious necessity of speaking up in these cases then what is the difference
between a robber breaking into someone’s house or store or seeing that his servants are secretly
stealing from him or that his partner is deceiving him in their business or that another person is
cheating him in commerce or that he is lending money to someone that you know doesn’t repay?
How is this different from stopping a proposed marriage to someone you know is a wicked person
who would be a horrible husband. Saving a person from these situations is clearly included in the
command (Devarim 22:2) to return to the person himself or his money. From where do we get the
mistaken idea that in the case of murder, I will speak up but that it is prohibited to say anything in
other situations where someone is being harmed? The general principle is that these are matters
which depend upon the speakers motivation. If the informant’s intent in relating these matters is
entirely to cause harm that is lashon harah. However if his intent is to bring about benefit to the
other person and to save him and to protect him – then it is a great mitzva. In my opinion this is
the underlying intent of the Yerushalmi which the Magen Avraham brings which says that it is
permitted to speak lashon harah about people who cause disputes. … It is obvious that even
concerning those who cause disputes it is not permitted to speak lashon harah gratuitously about
them in all matters. It is only permitted for those things directly related to the particular dispute.
It is only permitted concerning that which they are trying to harm others. In such a case it is
permitted to reveal degrading things about them in order to save others. … Unfortunately I have
seen many times where someone witnesses another person trying to cause harm to someone – and
he suppresses the information and says, “Why should I get involved in a matter which isn’t my
business…However one needs to be very careful about these and similar matters. Our Sages have
said – when the permissibility depends on motivation - it says, “And you should be afraid of your
Gd.”
September 8, 2010 4:13 PM
Daas Torah said...

Malbim (Vayikra 19:16.41): Do not stand idly by the blood of your fellow - The literal meaning of
the verse is that if you see someone in danger – do not stand by but rather make a serious effort to
save him…. However the association in this verse of not speaking lashon harah teaches us that even
though we are prohibited to speak lashon harah, nevertheless if you know testimony that can help
another - even though it involves lashon harah and breaking confidentiality – it is necessary to
reveal the information and to testify. This is true even though revealing secrets is prohibited as
lashon harah.
September 8, 2010 4:15 PM
Daas Torah said...
 Netziv (Vayikra 19:16): Even though there is a clear prohibition in this verse against lashon harah,
nevertheless this is conditional on “not standing idly by the blood of others.” In other words if you
know that there is someone who wants to harm another then you are obligated to inform the
intended victim and it is prohibited to stand idly by and let it happen.
September 8, 2010 4:15 PM
Daas Torah said...

Ohr HaChaim (Vayikra 19:16): The prohibition of lashon harah is conditional on whether not
speaking will not cause harm to another. If you see a group that wants to kill people then you are
obligated to notify the potential victims so that they can save themselves. One should not keep
silent by saying that you don’t want to speak lashon harah. Thus we learn that if you don’t notify
the potential victim and he is killed that you have nullified this mitzva of not standing idly by the
blood of others. We learn this from the incident of Gedaliah who was warned of danger but did not
pay attention to the warning.
September 8, 2010 4:16 PM
Daas Torah said...

Rashi (Yoma 86b): Publicize the hypocrites – These people are wicked but they represent
themselves as righteous. Therefore if someone is aware of their deeds – it is a mitzva to publicize
them because of chillul HaShem. That is because people learn from their deeds since they think
they are tzadikim. Furthermore when they are punished from Heaven, people says “what benefit is
merit to protect against suffering.”
September 8, 2010 4:18 PM
Daas Torah said...

Rabbeinu Yonah (Mishlei 24:28): Don’t be a gratuitous witness of your fellow man –… This principle
is stated in Berachos (19a), If you see a talmid chachom sinning at night, do not suspect of him of
sinning anymore by the day because he will surely have repented by then. Since he has the
reputation of a person who is fearful of sinning and he is upset and regrets that his lust overcame
him. However if the talmid chachom is in fact a wicked person who is mistakenly thought by the
people to be righteous – he is not only to be criticized to those who know how to keep quiet – but
in fact it is a mitzva to publicize his deeds until they are well known to the public. That is because
severe harm occurs when wicked people are honored because he will turn many away from the
proper path and denigrate the honor of the righteous and encourages sinning. There is in fact
profanation of Gd’s name by honoring the wicked because some people will be aware of the sins
the wicked do and will concluded that there is nothing wrong with sinning and that it doesn’t
lower one’s stature (Yoma 86b)…
September 8, 2010 4:19 PM
Chizki said...

Interesting. I wonder if there is anything to be read into the absence of rabbis affiliated with
TORCH (http://www.torchweb.org/team2.php) in the list of names at the bottom of the letter.

Shana Tova.
September 8, 2010 5:06 PM
Gal said...

t is interesting that one of the complainers about blog is R' Yeoshua Wender, a participant in the
Tropper's sex scandal.

R' Wender declare on this blog that he did not know that Tropper was extracting sex from his own
conversion candidate and the reason the conversion candidate was block from conversion after the
scandal broke out is because she was not ready.

But we have a Tzaddik like Rav Lior who is in every day, every minute risking his life for Am Yisrael
and Eretz Israel says that the only reason the lady was not converted is because she refused to
have sex with Tropper, his wife and some other mekoravim.
 Without blogging and the Internet none of it would come out and Tropper would be still extracting
sex from r' Wender's candidate and probably from other candidates as well.
September 10, 2010 6:53 PM
Elliot Pasik said...

As R' Eidensohn demonstrates, the entire weight of Torah opinion is that corruption and hypocrisy
should be exposed. This Houston letter, declaring that all blogs are assur, is bizarre. I'm guessing
that some local issue prompted this letter, but even so, it goes way too far. Blogs save lives,
including the children and grandchildren of the rabbi signatories. This letter should be condemned,
for stifling the free expression that is needed to fulfill many mitzvos in the Torah.
September 12, 2010 9:44 AM
Anonymous said...

How can one express their frustrations about communal institutions "within the realm of Halacha?"
September 12, 2010 6:56 PM
Recipients and Publicity said...

Just trying to figure out who these rabbis are, since they are not well-known nor are they famous
for anything really, and what their motives and rationales may be:

Rabbi Mendel Feigenson is the Chabad rabbi of "Chabad of Sugar Land" in Missouri City, Texas.

Rabbi Barry Gelman is a very Modern Orthodox and Zionist rabbi according to his United Orthodox
Synagogues of Houston web site.

Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz is either a teacher at a day school or a dayan from Chicago and it's not
clear from Google which Rabbi Avraham Kivelevitz is the one here.

Rabbi Chaim Lazaroff is described on Linked as a Chabad rabbi who does outreach in Houston.

Rabbi Eliezer Lazaroff is a Jewish chaplain in Houston, per his own Chabad site.

Rabbi Shimon Lazaroff has a Wikipedia article about him, and is reputedly the head of Chabad in
Texas, based in Houston, having opened a number of Chabad centers in Texas since 1972. The
Lazaroff family comes from Russia.

Rabbi Gidon Moskovitz is a young outreach rabbi running Meyerland Minyan, where his online
biography does not specify which yeshiva he actually attended.

Rabbi Sasson Natan sprung in the 1990s from being a congregant, to the Hazan to Rabbi at the
Keter Torah synagogue.
September 13, 2010 5:22 AM
Recipients and Publicity said...

continued...

Rabbi Yehoshua Wender is the rabbi of Young Israel of Houston and went on record praising EJF and
the disgraced Tropper, even though he had to eat his hat when he had to accept the female
convert who brought about the forced resignation of Tropper and the disgraceful demise of EJF.

Rabbi Avraham Yaghobian, the name is obviously Iranian-Jewish, has only been in Houston since
2008, is trying to set up Congregation Torah VaChesed according to his Facebook page.

So now the question arises why would some fairly non-significant rabbis, with 4 out of the 10 being
Lubavitchers, 2 Sephardim, 3 being more modernish Orthodox rabbis, and one, Avraham Kivelevitz
perhaps being the dayan, issue such a sweeping statement?

A real answer could well be that they have an agenda. And a good possible reason could be that
they know that their arch-rival in all they do in Houston, the Houston Kollel known
 as TORCHhttp://www.torchweb.org/ headed by the brave Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe is embroiled in a
legal case being sued by Michoel Hersh with the support of Rav Aron Schechter, with almost all the
debate pro and con taking place online and on some blogs, especially this one, so that it is
PROBABLE and perhaps even certain that the above ten rabbis, almost all of questionable standing
to issue such grand sweeping utterances, are taking the chance to take an implicit swipe at Rabbi
Aryeh Wolbe and by implication try to dirty him and his well-respected organization in Houston, or
perhaps they just mean things leshem shomayim and want to keep Jews away from straying on the
Internet, which is hard to understand because each and every one of them uses the Internet
vigorously in its many forms and venues to further themselves!
September 13, 2010 5:22 AM
Justin Bieber said...

Good catch Rap...

It makes sense, 4 of the rabbis are Chabbad and Chabbd is known at least in out of town locations
to hate (sometime with a good reason) Yeshivish outreach organizations.

After all they all compete in the same market.

"it is clear to all of us, that to create a public blog of this type is clearly and unequivocally in
violation of so much of what the Torah stands for"

Obviously there is a blog over there which goes under the skin of these esteemed rabbis.

Could some put a link to this blog so we will all know what is all about...
September 13, 2010 3:03 PM
Harry B said...

Besides, if the Rabbis did their jobs and stood strong against intermarriage, child molesters, phony
conversion, and kashrus slander, then nobody would have a need to resort to the desperation and
anonymity of the blogosphere.
September 13, 2010 3:44 PM
LD said...

Maybe the issue has to do with recent wedding of Shannon O. in Houston. Maybe Tropper got
jealous...
September 13, 2010 6:02 PM
Recipients and Publicity said...

The four Chabad rabbis, perhaps it's even five, who signed this "anti-Blog declaration" should start
their work on their own home front because there are thousands of blogs run by Chabad advocates
and defenders that rip into any and all opponents of Chabad, and not just that, there are plenty of
blogs run by followers of the various factions within Chabad that are fighting each other online
over the degree of adherence and devotion to Meshichiticism.

As for the two novice Sefardic rabbis, why do they want to gain attention to themselves? when one
was not even trained as a rabbi but was chosen from the congregation because he sounded good
for their choir and they made him their rabbi, while the other is a new arrival who should stay out
of controversy if he knew what was good for him, but perhaps he has funding coming from a source
that obliges him to align with his co-signers. They both should be aksed to explain, they are not
"gedolim" who cannot be questioned as some would claim, they are local guys who should open up
and not just plunk down their signatures and hope that they can get away without deeper scrutiny
befalling them.

The Modern Orthodox rabbis, especially Rabbi Wender should not be sticking their necks out either,
with all the negative press he got once it was revealed how he was directly linked to Tropper and
was getting paid for EJF (all affiliate batei din and rabbis got stipends and grants care of Guma
 Aguiar's and Tom Kaplan's deep pockets that Tropper abused) to run conversions in Houston, and
then was left holding the baby when Shanon Orand, his congregant, was revealed as the "love
object" of Tropper and who was forced to choose between her desire for a kosher conversion and
Tropper's demand's for fee-for-service-sex (aka known as prostitution, pimping, and blackmail) for
himself and his corrupt buddies as is very clear from the tapes posted online of Tropper's
pornographically graphic and sexually explicit conversations with Orand, that also included posted
recordings of his phone sex with her.

Funny how Houston is a "meeting point" and "intersection" in both the Tropper/Orand/Wender/EJF
scandal and in the Michoel Hersh scandal versus Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe of Houston for taking care of
Hersh's abandoned and abused young sons Isaac and Sol in Houston and previously in Jerusalem, as
Rabbi Wolbe and his brother have testified in court.

Had all this not come to light thanks to the simple freedom of speech available on the Internet,
Tropper would still be running roughshod over everyone getting away with his immoral crimes
against humanity, and Michoel Hersh could be smugly gloating at his sons' misfortunes without a
care on the world, Rabbi Wender would still be getting money for his affiliations with EJF and
Tropper, and Shannon Orand would have been relegated to the garbage heap that Tropper wanted
her to go to and Wender would have just accepted and winked at it all, denying any "wrondoing"
forgetting that the Torah warning of "al titchaber lerasha" (do not befriend an evil one).

Finally, who Avraham Kivelevitz is and where he fits into all of this remains a mystery and requires
clarification, since there are two on Google. If he is a simple teacher then his words are worthless
and if he is the dayan from Skokie then the question must be asked if he ever had any connections
with Tropper and EJF in the past and why he is now so worried about blogs when there is a lot
more to worry about, as outlined above.
September 13, 2010 6:06 PM

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