IJoDR

The continuity and discontinuity between wak-

ing and dreaming: A Dialogue between Michael
Schredl and Allan Hobson concerning the ade-
quacy and completeness of these notions
J. Allan Hobson1 and Michael Schredl2
1
Harvard Medical School, USA
2
Central Institute of Mental Health, Mannheim, Germany

Summary. The discussion between J. Allan Hobson and Michael Schredl covers a broad variety of topics that are still
hot in dream research. The starting point is the continuity hypothesis of dreaming which is complemented by Allan
Hobsons theory of protoconsciousness. Whereas there is no disagreement that waking life is reflected in dreams, the
discussion evolves around discontinuity, i.e., how dream activities are explained that the dreamer never experienced in
his/her waking life, and possible functions of dreaming. These functions might include preparation for waking life or per-
sonal growth. The aim of this paper is to stimulate a discussion among the researchers in the field on these topics which
are of fundamental importance for neurophysiological and psychological dream research.

Keywords: Continuity hypothesis; Protoconsciousness theory; Functions of dreaming.

AH. What is the continuity hypothesis? AH. I have no doubt that the continuity hypothesis is val-
id. And, pace Freud, that some recent experience is repre-
MS. In its general form, the continuity hypothesis (see sented in dreams. The question is: how much? And a re-
Box 1) simply says that we dream of our waking life ex- lated question concerns the source of that content which
periences (thoughts, feeling, events etc.). Since Freuds is not an apparent reproduction of prior waking experience.
Die Traumdeutung where he coined the term Tagesreste Freud, and you continuity theorists, are obliged to regard
(day residues) nobody really doubts this kind of continuity these dream elements as distorted or disguised transforma-
between waking and dreaming. Dreams often contain ele- tions of prior waking experience. I am very skeptical of this
ments of our recent or more distant waking life, not in terms explanation.
of exact replay as the study of Fosse, Fosse, Hobson, and For me, an alternative hypothesis, perhaps equally val-
Stickgold (2003) has shown but on a thematic level, e.g. id, posits discontinuity. In many ways this discontinuity
dreaming of our actual romantic partner, about a work situ- hypothesis is interesting because it distinguishes between
ation and so on. We agree I think that the formal char- waking and dreaming by asserting that dreaming is not only
acteristics between dreaming and waking life experiencing the replay of waking experience. This raises the intriguing
are different best explained by the AIM model (see Box question: If dreaming is not entirely derived from waking
2), different neuromodulators in the brain produce different experience, then just what is the source of the anomalous
modes of experiencing. Dreams are more bizarre and emo- content and what is its function?
tional, even though thats important to keep in mind the
dreamer experiences the dream as real, as real as the wak- MS. I would like to know more about your idea of discon-
ing world (with the exception of lucid dreams which occur tinuity, what dream characteristics and/or dream elements
quite rarely). might be related to the function of dreaming. I studied, for
example, flying dreams, clearly discontinuous to waking life
because flying unaided is not possible, on the emotional
level (feeling of elation) there might be continuity, which I
found to be true, the occurrence of flying dreams was relat-
Prof. Allan Hobson, Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medi-
ed to lower neuroticism scores in contrast falling dreams
cal School. Member of the Division of Sleep Medicine; De-
(also discontinuous with waking life) were related to higher
partment of Psychiatry and Division of Sleep Medicine, USA.
neuroticism scores (Schredl, 2008). So, what types of dis-
Email: [email protected]
continuities would you see to be likely of significance?
Prof. Dr. Michael Schredl, Sleep laboratory, Central Institute of
Mental Health, PO Box 122120, 68072 Mannheim, Germany. AH. Discontinuity is defined as misrepresentations of
Email: [email protected] wake state times, places, persons and actions, and the syn-
thesis of completely original dream features. Dreaming is
Submitted for publication: April 2011 thus much more interesting than continuity theory recog-

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IJoDR

AH. What might then be the function of discontinuity? I

Box 1 Continuity hypothesis suggest, in my new protoconsciousness hypothesis, that
The term continuity hypothesis was first used by Calvin dreaming is a predictor as well as a reflector of waking con-
S. Hall to describe his findings that dream content reflects sciousness. By that I mean that REM Sleep-Dreaming is
the waking life concerns of the dreamer (Hall & Nordby, a virtual reality generator for the conscious brain-mind. It
1972). Schredl (2003) pointed out that the formulation of creates an infinitely varied set of possible scenarios at the
this hypothesis is too broad to be of helpful in carrying out same time that it processes scenarios that have actually oc-
empirical dream research. It seems to be important to in- curred! The advantages of such an autocreative system are
vestigate the factors which might affect the probability of obvious. In life, it is important to be prepared for anything.
specific life events, activities etc. to occur in a subsequent The genetically encoded experience of our biological an-
dream. The continuity hypothesis focuses on the thematic cestors is thus made available to us.
content of the dream and not on dream characteristics
like bizarreness. MS. The idea that dreaming with its creative potential is
important for mankind is intriguing and very plausible but
as an empirical scientist I think about paradigms to test this
theory. Is there any possibility to test the protoconscious-
nizes: it is autocreative and its autocreativity is in no way
ness hypothesis?
neurotic, regressive or derivative as Freud and his follow-
ers assert. All who try to interpret dreams in psychotherapy
AH. One of the advantages of a cross-species neurobio-
miss this important point. Dreaming may not thus be the
logical approach like the one I used to study the brain basis
symptom but rather the cure of such problems as the repeti-
of dreaming is the opportunity to explore the implications of
tion compulsion. As David Hartlet famously suggested, We
theory not just in humans but in animals where certain kinds
dream in order to forget.
of experiment can be performed which are not possible in
people. For example, it is possible to look for orientation
MS. For me, an interesting question is not whether there
patterns in rat hippocampal neurons before as well as after
is continuity or not but what factors affect the incorpora-
the animal is exposed to maze-learning. When this is done,
tion of waking life experiences into subsequent dreams and
it is possible to detect robust evidence that there is PRE-
these factors might tell us something about why it makes
PLAY (not just replay) of orientational brain activity (Dragoi
sense to have some kind of continuity between waking and
& Tonegawa, 2011). Thus a sleeping, dreaming animal (like
dreaming.
you, Michael, and me), correctly predicts the situation to
which he is exposed. This must reflect impressive redun-
AH. A function of continuity might be consolidation of
dancy to assure some match between expectation and ex-
memory or the integration of that memory with emotion. But
perience and is a finding which confirms an important tenet
the continuity that interests me the most is what you call
of protoconsciousness theory. In fact, I long ago predicted
thematic but which I call generic, emphasizing the univer-
that REM sleep provided a redundant set of orientational
sality of formal features of dreams, like seeing, moving, and
maps that could be fit to the orientation realities of wak-
feeling. These are universals that I think have little to do with
ing. Such a prediction and such a result could never have
the replay of waking experience. They reflect, rather, the
emerged from continuity theory unless the continuity arrow
PREPLAY of waking (see Box 3). In that sense, the continu-
ity arrow runs in an exactly opposite direction to the arrow
you continuity theorists, again following Freud, choose to
emphasize. I fear that you may not only be missing the boat Box 2 AIM model
but making an important error in your work. The AIM model was formulated by J. Allan Hobson and
co-workers (J Allan Hobson, Pace-Schott, & Stickgold,
MS. Up to now there are only three studies looking direct- 2000) to describe the relationship between neurobiology
ly into the idea that dreaming as conscious activity during and consciousness. The three relevant factors are activa-
sleep that can remembered upon awaking might be related tion (A), input/output (I), and modulation (M). Brain activa-
to memory consolidation which is likely to take place on a tion is crucial for consciousness processes and differ, for
cellular level (neurons, synapses). The studies (De Koninck, example, between waking, REM and NREM. The major
J., Prevost, F., & Lortie-Lussier, M., 1996; Schredl & Erlach- difference between waking and dreaming is the input/
er, 2010; Wamsley, Tucker, Payne, Benavides, & Stickgold, output dimension. Whereas in waking life, the brain pro-
2010) are far from conclusive. But there is a lot of work to cesses mainly external input, the dreaming brain is pro-
be done. Regarding your idea of PREPLAY, I agree with you cessing internal generated information. The modulation
about the universality of the formal features of dream like factor refers to the reciprocal interaction model of REM
seeing, acting, feeling. As the dream content reflects recent sleep regulation, cholinergic cells in the brainstem are ac-
events, emotions of waking life, it seems difficult to under- tive during REM whereas aminergic cells are active in the
stand why you focus only on one side of the coin. In terms waking state. These differences in neuromodulatory sys-
of function, it could make sense, that old waking life mate- tems result in an differential activation of the brain, and
rial is put together in a creative way in order to prepare the might explain specific dream features like dream bizarre-
person for future experiences in waking life, this is similar ness or reduced intellectual activities in dreams. I.e., the
to the problem-solving function postulated for dreaming AIM model and its predecessor, the activation-synthesis
(Wright & Koulack, 1987). theory, aimed at explaining differences in formal aspects
of the consciousness based on neurophyiological differ-
ences but did not focus on thematic aspects of dreaming.

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ran forward from the dream to experience, exactly opposite ongoing problems (or more generally: current concerns) and
to the way that psychotherapeutically oriented scientists help the dreamer to be better prepared for the next round.
like yourself would draw it. This finding not only complicates Do you have any idea how, for example, flying dreams fit
your life by showing that your theory is incomplete, but it into that picture? These dreams apparently do not prepare
also suggests that your theory may be wrong: how could for waking life.
you ever interpret a dream if you thought it was a wide open
set of expectations rather than a narrow mirroring of experi- AH. I have recently revisited the flying dream story in
ence? terms of my own doubts that the blind can see, the deaf
can hear, and the paralyzed can move in their dreams (Voss,
MS. As mentioned before, dreaming must not necessarily Tuin, Schermelleh-Engel, & Hobson, in press). How can this
play a part in the sleep-dependent memory consolidation be true unless dream content is synthetic and not merely
which is obviously a function of sleep fulfilling the idea of reproductive? The fact is that I myself have had perfectly
preparing. How can we tackle the problem to study the ef- delightful flying dreams without ever having flown in wak-
fect of dreams on subsequent waking life? One idea is to ing. In that state, however, I have seen birds and airplanes
look what kind of waking-life experiences are incorporated flying so I know that it is possible. And when I imitate a bird
into dreams, does this give us hints about the function of or an airplane in my dreams I learned to take off. By means
dreams. So, let me elaborate on the factors that may deter- of autosuggestion, I was able to fly without imitating birds or
mine incorporation of waking experience into dreams. One airplanes, again confirming the view of dreaming as plastic
factor emotional intensity seems very plausible. Emo- and pluripotential, a state to be celebrated and used for its
tionally intense waking life experiences are more likely to be own sake, not a means to an end but an end in itself. The
incorporated into subsequent dreams. This is not only valid blind, the deaf, and the paralyzed enjoy their dream fictions
for traumatic experiences but also for everyday events see as much, if not more, than I enjoy flying.
my diary study (Schredl, 2006).
MS. Another factor which I think may determine incor-
AH. Emotional salience or emotional intensity may well poration was first stressed by Ernest Hartmann. The title of
be a determinant of incorporation and I have already pro- his article was We do not dream of the 3 Rs: implications
posed that emotional salience may be used to organize the for the nature of dream mentation (Hartmann, 2000). He
memories which turn up in dreams. But discontinuity and showed that activities like reading, writing and arithmetic
protoconsciousness theory would insist that there is much occur in relation to their frequency in waking life relatively
more to it than that! I hypothesize that emotion is generated rarely in dreams. This was replicated by two studies I have
as a primary event in REM and that it then becomes the carried out. Talking with friends, for example, was found
dreamers job to associate his or her own memories or pre- more often in students dreams than studying if controlled
dictions on to those emotions. Dreaming is thus regarded for the amount of time spent for each activity in waking life
as a practice session for a wide range of wake-state chal- (Schredl & Hofmann, 2003).
lenges (some of which may never actually occur). On this
view, dream emotion might be as much a stimulus of dream AH. The absence of Hartmanns 3 Rs from dream con-
content as a label, imported from waking, and determining tent is important evidence in favor of discontinuity. Some
incorporation. frequent and common experiences of waking (like reading,
writing and mathematics) are markedly underrepresented in
MS. A recent study of mine (Schredl & Reinhard, 2009- dream content. Why? Certainly not because those activities
2010) supports your idea, dreams that were strongly af- are not emotionally salient. It is difficult to imagine waking
fected by the previous day affected the mood of the subse- experience more stressful to students than scholastic chal-
quent day most likely. In terms of the protoconsciousness lenges. No, I propose that the 3 Rs are not there because
hypothesis, it would be helpful if dreams pick up the major they are secondary consciousness dependent cognitions
that cannot occur in REM Sleep dreaming. This is because
the brain is defrontalized and aminergically demodulated.
We dont do math in our dreams because we cant do math
Box 3 Protoconsciousness theory in our dreams! Its as simple as that. This point exposes a
Based on the findings that newborn mammals show high glaring weakness of continuity theory and, again, indicates
amounts of REM sleep, J. Allan Hobson (2009) formu- a major difference between waking and dreaming.
lated his dream protoconsciousness hypothesis which
suggests that the development and maintenance of wak- MS. I agree with you that the continuity hypothesis can
ing consciousness and other high-order brain functions not explain everything see for example flying dreams.
depends on brain activation during sleep. Whereas the The underrepresentation of the 3 Rs does also not favor
benefit of brain processes regarding memory consolida- a simple relationship between dreaming and memory con-
tion have been shown in numerous studies, the question solidation either. As we are not talking about exact replay
of specific function of dreaming as subjective experience which might be necessary for memory consolidation which
during sleep is still not answered. The postulated primary takes place in sleep but about content, it might be inter-
processes in REM sleep (including perception and emo- esting to speculate why studying is underrepresented and
tion) are difficult to study because dream reports can social interactions are overrepresented compared to waking
only be obtained by infants who succeeded in learning to life. Why is there a thematic continuity between waking and
speak. One claim of the protoconsciouness theory is that dreaming. A I said above, I found a second-order continu-
some features and even some contents might be inborn ity, those dreams which have been most strongly affected
and not only reflecting previous waking life experiences. by waking life experiences of the previous day are those

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AH. Whether dreaming is correlated with adaptation in the

Box 4 Continuity vs. Discontinuity narrow clinical sense of theorists like Sigmund Freud, Carl
Whereas the continuity between waking and dreaming Rogers or Rosalyn Cartwright is dubious, I believe. But the
is easily defined in terms of thematic similarities, e.g., idea that dreaming is a prelude to, and predictor of, waking
dreaming of the romantic partner because she/he is sa- consciousness is a clinically significant and powerful adap-
lient in the waking life of the dreamer, the definition of dis- tive notion. I submit that continuity theory espoused by
continuity is more complex. One aspect addressed in the you and many other clinically oriented psychologists puts
discussion is the aspect that dreams included elements the cart before the horse. In my view, REM sleep dreaming
that the dreamer has never experienced in his waking life, subserves all conscious state functions and not just those
e.g., flying, pain experiences, hearing in congenitally deaf which are narrowly relevant.
person etc. It seems a very interesting topic to specu-
late about the origin of these dream experiences. It also MS. I wouldnt call the idea of personal growth aimed at
seems to be related to bizarreness (see page 4). increasing pleasant experiences and decrease the frequen-
cy of negative ones a narrow clinical sense of adaption. If
I understand your protoconsciousness theory correctly, this
that affected the mood of the following day the most. This would fit in perfectly.
led me to hypothesize that thematically important issues will
be processed in waking life as well as in dreams, and this is AH. For what is worth, in my forty years experience as
continuity and protoconsciousness theory (see Box 4). a psychotherapist, I can honestly state that I never learned
anything from a clients dreams that I did not already know.
AH. Michael, you are struggling to defend your theory Since I was trained by Freudians, I listened long and hard for
against all evidence. Maybe you would tell us what evidence the penny to drop. It never did and my patients have done at
would convince you that continuity theory is either wrong or least as well as those that are still waiting for messages from
incomplete. their dreams and the unconscious.

MS. I do not have any problems to admit that the continu- MS. My over 20 years experience in working with dreams
ity hypothesis is incomplete. First of all, it is a descriptive gave me a quite different picture but, of course, my aim was
model to show that some waking life experiences (not all) different. My approach to working with dreams is different
can be found in some form in dreams. Here is the evidence from classical psychoanalytic approaches (maybe not so
clear. The major and yet unanswered question is: Does different from modern psychoanalysis) and aims helping the
continuity or discontinuity as you define it makes any dreamer to understand himself or herself better. And this
sense in regard to a possible function of dreaming? I have seen a hundred times, talking about the dream, its
relationship to current issues helped the dreamer to under-
AH. From my perspective, the evidence that incorporation stand the situation more clearly and even provided some
of waking experience into dreams is determined by emo- ideas for change especially if the dreamer was asked what
tional salience is unconvincing. All my life I have heard simi- he or she would have liked to do in the dream differently.
lar arguments made by clinicians whose bias in this matter That dreamwork in psychotherapy is effective have been
is obvious. They are selling a product and cant be expected shown by Clara Hill and coworkers (Hill & Goates, 2004). I
to warn potential customers of their products deficiencies! admit that this evidence is not conclusive because talking
Look, Michael, there are numerous emotionally salient ex- about other issues might be as helpful as well, even if the
periences which are never incorporated into dreams and Hill studies suggest that there might be a slight advantage
many emotion-rich dream experiences which never occur in for dreams.
waking. My personal and scientific reaction to these facts is A brief comment on Ursula Voss finding that the dreams
that there is a redundant mix and match process going on of paraplegics, and deaf-mute people do not dream of their
in REM sleep dreams which associates emotion and men- disability and that they do dream of themselves as without
tal content, real or imagined, experienced or merely antici- their wake state limitations (Voss, Tuin, Schermelleh-Engel,
pated. Such a system is far less constrained than continuity & Hobson, in press). Even if she demonstrated that their dis-
theory would predict but one which is far more effective be-
cause of its scope, generality and redundancy.
Box 5 Psychological functions of dreaming
MS. My definition of continuity might be different from The question whether dreaming has a function on its own
what you have in mind. I am not associating replay of wak- in addition to REM sleep or sleep in general is still debat-
ing life experiences but continuity of topics that are impor- ed. The assumption, for example, that dreaming is nec-
tant to the dreaming and waking ego. I would like now to essary for memory consolidation processes taking place
refer to psychological theories about personal growth or during sleep have not empirically studied in depth. Over-
self-actualization as Carl Rogers called it. In addition to all, it is difficult to study the function of dreaming because
the normal problem solving skills (inventions, daily work) dreams can only be obtained by asking the dreamer after
in order to cope better with the physical surrounding, the he or she woke up and, therefore, possible beneficial ef-
need for personal growth seems inherent to human nature, fects can not be separated from thinking about the dream
maybe in order to better cope with social situations. That during or after telling the dream. I.e., one cannot study the
makes sense for the human species as they live together in function of unremembered dreams. One possible function
groups. So, my idea is that dreams, especially dreams that of dreaming because of its focus on social interactions
show thematic continuity to waking life, help the dreamer to might be personal growth.
mature in this psychological sense (see Box 5).

6 International Journal of Dream Research Volume 4, No. 1 (2011)

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ability shows up very rarely in their dreams this does not fal- Schredl, M., & Erlacher, D. (2010). Is sleep-dependent memory
sify the continuity hypothesis. It only says that the life-long consolidation of a visuo-motor task related to dream
disability does not have a strong effect on the dreams dur- content? International Journal of Dream Research, 3,
ing the study period. Maybe current interpersonal conflicts 74-79.
are more important to be incorporated but this hypothesis Schredl, M., & Hofmann, F. (2003). Continuity between wak-
can only be studied if the waking life of the participants will ing activities and dream activities. Consciousness and
also be measured in some way in order to correlate waking Cognition, 12, 298-308.
Schredl, M., & Reinhard, I. (2009-2010). The continuity between
life with dream content. So the Voss results might also point
waking mood and dream emotions: Direct and second-
in the direction to look more closely what kind of waking life
order effects. Imagination, Cognition and Personality
experience is likely to be incorporated into dreams. 29, 271-282.
AH. This surprising finding clinches the case for me. Al- Voss, U., Tuin, I., Schermelleh-Engel, K., & Hobson, A. Wak-
though I am skeptical of the claim that these subjects have ing and dreaming: Related but structurally independent.
sensory experiences in their dreams which they never had in Dream reports of congenitally paraplegic and deaf-mute
waking, the study strongly supports the idea that conscious persons. [doi: DOI: 10.1016/j.concog.2010.10.020].
experience depends upon built-in processes that arise in- Consciousness and Cognition, In Press, Corrected
dependently of waking. In other words, continuity theory is, Proof.
at best, incomplete and must be complimented by a theory Wamsley, E. J., Tucker, M., Payne, J. D., Benavides, J. A., &
of discontinuity like that of protoconsciousness. It is not so Stickgold, R. (2010). Dreaming of a learning task is as-
much a question of either/or as it is a question of both/and. sociated with enhanced sleep-dependent memory con-
solidation. Current Biology, 20, 850-855.
MS. I agree. This finding which is, however, not sup- Wright, J., & Koulack, D. (1987). Dreams and contemporary
ported by other empirical studies in the field suggest that stress: a disruption-avoidance-adaptation model.
some features like body image or verbal interaction might Sleep, 10, 172-179.
have some basis in the hard-wire of the brain. In my opin-
ion, the continuity hypothesis and the protoconsciousness
theory fit together well.

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