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New Scenes of Vulnerability,

Agency and Plurality
An Interview with Judith Butler

Vikki Bell

I
T HAD been ten years or more since the last formal interview I
conducted with Judith Butler for TCS, but nonetheless, had she declined,
I would not have pressed the point. One among the very many requests
sent in her direction for lectures, manuscripts, articles, comments,
responses, endorsements and the like mine was hopeful rather than
insistent. Still, ten years is hardly pestering and, happily, Judith agreed to
another demand on her time, asking only a few months more peace from me
before we met, at her home in Berkeley, California, to sit for some several
hours, drinking tea and taking stock.
Living by words doesnt necessarily make the writer comfortable with
the spoken interview format; indeed, the academic interview is a peculiar
endeavour, attempting to elicit both spontaneity and brevity that are not the
common habits of its subject. Judith Butler, however, has an impressive
ability to speak extemporaneously, and with the broad canvas that this inter-
view afforded her, she ranges, as I had hoped she would, over a wide terrain.
Making connections between the various philosophies she engages
Foucault, Fanon, Arendt, Laplanche are all mentioned here as well as
with the present political configurations to which she feels one should
attend, Judith Butler eloquently conveys a sense of her restless need to think
the present, to try to comprehend it through, but also as a question for,
philosophy. This, more than any concern for the consistency of argument,
characterizes Judith Butlers work and her own reflections on it. Yet there
are some consistencies, concerns that have remained throughout her career
to date. The terms of the title we have chosen for the interview vulnera-
bility, agency, plurality are offered in an attempt to capture a few of those

Theory, Culture & Society 2010 (SAGE, Los Angeles, London, New Delhi, and Singapore),
Vol. 27(1): 130152
DOI: 10.1177/0263276409350371

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Bell New Scenes of Vulnerability, Agency and Plurality 131

concerns; while of course, as the title also implies, these terms demand to
be explored in their altering, even interruptive, new scenes. The possibil-
ities for Israel/Palestine, the question of contemporary faiths and secular-
ism, a renewed theoretical interest in vitalism provide some of the
provocations here. The interview is not comprehensive by any means, and
although it certainly covers much ground, it does not attempt to summarize
Judith Butlers work or even her approach to her thinking. Rather, it is a
pause, a rest on a continuing journey, a chance to consider the paths taken
but, more importantly, to wonder about our capacities to imagine what lies
ahead.

*
Vikki Bell: Foucault has been a constant source of inspiration in your work,
informing the central arguments of Gender Trouble. But even there, and more
clearly still in your more recent work especially in Giving an Account of
Oneself your discussion brings him onto the terrain of psychoanalysis,
specifically around the argument that when forms of rationality become
naturalized, taken for granted, considered as foundational and required, if
they become the terms by which we do and must live, then our very living
depends upon a denial of their historicity, a disavowal of the price we pay
(2005: 121). You argue that Foucault shares something with psychoanalysis,
which allows you to draw on both to argue that something is sacrificed or lost
in the moment in which the subject constitutes him or herself. But is some-
thing of Foucault sacrificed here, i.e. the critique of psychoanalysis construc-
tion of the unconscious and the building of its justifications on this, when you
turn his genealogical impulse into a reconstructive one? Why is it important
to supplement a Foucauldian thesis with psychoanalytic arguments?

Judith Butler: Foucault is at times willing to use the word unconscious; I

think he actually refers to the cultural unconscious at one point. Its an
unexpected engagement with what one would expect to be a psychoanalytic
term. So what is he doing in such instances? Theres another point in The
Hermeneutics of the Subject where he makes an overture towards psycho-
analysis, emphasizing the way that another discourse may operate un-
wittingly in the deliberate discourse of a subject. He also references the
scene of address in the transference. One speaks to someone, but ones
speech is in some way the speech of an Other. So, sometimes one has to read
him carefully to see what he is trying to probe. Certain kinds of oppositions
get created according to which we have Foucault on the one hand and
psychoanalysis on the other, and precisely when those kinds of oppositions
get settled, hell start talking about Freud, or hell mention the unconscious
perhaps as a way to confuse an audience that thinks they have captured
him. Without knowing his intention, we can see that, effectively, he re-
articulates positions that have been opposed and shows how they might be
implicated in one another, or how they might be re-operationalized.

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132 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

In the interview What does it cost to tell the truth/what price do we

pay to tell the truth? he is effectively saying that when we enter a particu-
lar discursive regime or regime of rationality, we dont enter fully, were not
fully constructed; nor is there a way to identify the subject fully with the
particular regime of rationality at issue. We enter by paying a price, by
losing something that was once ours. Now, he doesnt exactly say what is
lost or given up, but I would presume that if we enter into a certain kind of
regime of rationality (or find that a rationality has entered into what we call
our own), then there are alternative modes of rationality that get
discounted. So one of the things we pay with, by entering into a particular
regime, is the capacity to operate alternative rationalities those that are
less regulated or that constitute other kinds of competing regimes. If we
think about the subject as paying, as losing or giving up something, in order
to enter into a discursive regime that enables it to achieve intelligibility,
rationality, recognizability, then what becomes unintelligible, unspeakable,
unrecognizable? There is a time of the now (Benjamins Jetztzeit) in which
these operations take hold and which becomes the condition of our own
query into what constitutes a limit or a cost. We cant assume that there is
a pure domain of the unintelligible or the unspeakable; theres nothing that
is, by nature, unintelligible or unspeakable. What Foucaults really expli-
cating is how certain exclusions from the domain of intelligibility produce
a domain of the unintelligible a domain that is not only produced through
exclusion, but maintained there by processes involving force and iterability,
insistence and frailty.
There are some standard psychoanalytic frameworks that would
respond, Oh no, the unintelligible is the id, or the unintelligible is the
unconscious, or suggest that the unintelligible is the domain of primary
process that operates outside the domain of consciousness and established
modes of intelligibility, and that has, on occasion, the capacity to interrupt
those. An uncritical acceptance of the topographies of id, ego and superego
gives a kind of presumptive autonomy to the domain of the unintelligible,
saying, Oh, its an established part of the psyche. But for Foucault its
not a pre-established part of the psyche. I agree. I dont think we can seek
recourse to a kind of ongoing structural unconscious, thats there for every
subject in the same way, or regard the unconscious as the repository of the
unintelligible. But if the psychoanalytic view includes the claim that such
a structure is not only instituted, but also maintained, then theres a
possible link with Foucault. So although, if we sought recourse to a law
that works in the same way in every possible social and discursive
universe, we would depart from Foucault, we might instead ask with him
how the domains of the unconscious are produced. If the unconscious,
conceived as an enigmatic domain (to cite from Laplanche), is instituted
and maintained depending on how the domains of rationality and intelli-
gibility are circumscribed and instituted (and we conceive these latter
operations as operations of power), then we have a social and discursive
analysis that is fundamental to the thinking of psychic process. And the

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Bell New Scenes of Vulnerability, Agency and Plurality 133

presumption of the autonomy of the unconscious, even the psyche, is called

into question.
Part of the confusion has to do with how the unconscious is defined.
Some assume that by unconscious is meant unconscious content and some
of those assume further that there is a topographical container for such
content. Similarly, there are structuralist and functionalist accounts that
claim a certain variability to the unconscious. So some content or, indeed,
signifier that might have to be unconscious under a certain set of variable
historical conditions may not have to be unconscious at all under others. If
the unconscious is linked to topography, or if we are induced to invoke the
figures of spatiality when we try and broach this problem of the unconscious,
that is because one of its operations is to appear as a kind of place or
territory, something produced and sustained through a problematic
boundary. This is why it is important to read the meta-psychology as part of
the very operation of the psyche rather than take for granted a kind of struc-
ture or place-holder in which this content exists. As a domain of the unac-
ceptable, the unintelligible or the enigmatic, it is constantly being produced
and maintained, which is not to say that it is effectively so! Now, I want to
say that this is also lived out psychically. If we live in a world in which that
kind of separation is always happening, and that gets lived out psychically,
then we can start to use terms like the unconscious in an adjectival way,
as process, or even as an iterable kind of action whose effectivity and falli-
bility belong to its own temporal logic. To understand how this operates, we
have to ask how, say, the unacceptable gets lived out, how the unintelligi-
ble gets lived out, and how what is not lived out, what is unliveable, also
leaves its mark or assumes figural or symptomatic form as spectre, monstros-
ity or a mode of unintelligibility. If one lives according to a rationality, what
forms of life come to haunt that mode of rationality as its outside, and how
do those unliveable modes vacilliate topographically between what is
inside and what is outside the orbit of the subject? It seems to me that
we cant actually understand the whole process of subject formation without
such a set of perspectives.
That said, let me just make a simple point in relation to it. For those
of us who read Foucault first, within the debates on cultural construction,
we wanted to be able to say that subjects were produced by discourse, or
that there were discursive conditions under which subjects were produced
(this was the way that Foucault entered into some academic work in the US,
through an anthropological debate, but not the way he entered into academic
inquiry where those were not the terms). That seems right; I would still hold
to that as a kind of fundamental Foucauldian postulate. I would add two
points, as I think he does. First, that there are so-called subjects who are
subject to de-production, an awkward way of trying to describe those who
never get to enter into the process of being explicitly produced as subjects.
Note: this does not mean they do not belong to that production their
reiterated exclusion from the domain of a recognizable subject is central to
the production of the recognizable subject. So, there is an exclusionary

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134 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

criterion that means there are subjects who get produced, others who dont
get fully produced or who are only partially legible, and those who dont get
produced at all. Then theres the second point, which is: At what price do
any of us get produced as subjects? Here the question of an economic model
comes to bear on thinking exclusion. It strikes me as a very psychoanalytic
question. We dont have to give a standard psychoanalytic response to the
question, but at least it allows us to see that there are forms of suffering or
de-realization, or unintelligibility, or inassimilability that are not just there,
but produced, enforced and managed over time, that get lived out, or that
set a limit to what can be lived out. Indeed, it can be an entire mode of
living in the mode of non-living.
So, psychoanalysis isnt always being involved in a reconstructive
project. What is it that is being reconstructed? A childhood? The causal
precedents for a life, the key traumas by which we are formed? If anything,
it might be understood as a deconstructive project to the extent that one
is looking for what is ruled out, what figuration that ruled out assumes, and
what maintains and risks the historically specific forms of foreclosure that
make and break a subject. This can be part of a genealogical impulse. For
instance, if you consider Fanon and ask: At what price does one become a
man? Well, if the black man is not a man, then the price by which one
becomes a man is the effacement of race. Or, alternately, the saturation of
the black man in masculinity is the effacement of the man. The problem of
writing, for Fanon, is precisely how to negotiate and expose that trap,
without presuming that the trap is invariable, either structurally or func-
tionally. How does that get lived out, or, rather, how do the limits on what
can be lived out make themselves known in the midst of what is being
lived out? Well, it gets lived out at the level of rage, of muteness, of the
inability to speak or to make use of established language that is confer-
ring intelligibility on human subjects, right? That Fanon returned to
psychoanalysis to help him with that particular conundrum strikes me as
really important; we could ask, At what price could Fanon become a man,
if he ever could become a man? And that would be, at once, a question
about the discursive construction of the human, its presumptive white
masculinity, and the de-production of race or the effacement of race, or the
association of the racially marked subject as prior to the human and not the
man. My own view is that he had to reclaim embodiment differently as he
does toward the end of that text when he explicitly directs his prayer to his
body, asking his body to let him become a man, where man is then postu-
lated as a body that questions. The questioning animal crosses the conven-
tionally racist human/bestial divide, and does so through positing a body
that can become a way of knowing.
Of course, that form of knowing is not omnipotent; it does not seek to
overcome what it cannot know; it only seeks to question. Perhaps the form
of the question is what links Foucault with psychoanalysis here, and with a
kind of social critique of subject formation that takes into account the
differential modes of power at work.

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VB: Fanons biography seems to me to tell the story of a particular political

process as it is registered at the level of the subject; that is, the dislocating
experiences of a postcolonial process when the construction of that peculiar
subject the faithful colonial subject dissolved. By the end of the war,
after his experiences of poverty in North Africa and of racism in the French
army, the 20-year-old Fanon had lost confidence in the obsolete ideal
(Macey, 2000: 104) he had wished to defend, and he returned to Martinique
somewhat differently positioned in relation to France, more aware, no doubt,
of the irony of the colonized being asked to help in the liberation of the
colonizers. So in this sense he was, in your terms, produced as a French
colonial subject, and was even willing complicit in his production as
French soldier-subject, only to be brought, through the experiences of war,
to the understanding that this subject could only emerge, at that time, within
the racist formations, in which he was never quite soldier-subject, never
quite French-subject.

JB: Perhaps we would have to think about the particular form of ambiva-
lence that that entails something that Homi Bhabha clearly did in drawing
our attention to doubling of the not quite. I think Fanon really wanted to
understand psychic suffering trauma that was produced under concrete
social conditions. If we start thinking that the analysis of social conditions
doesnt include the analysis of psychic suffering or, conversely, that the
analysis of psychic suffering involves the suspension of critical analysis of
social conditions, then were lost. Suffering is both the effect and modality
of oppressive social conditions, so we cannot really think the conditions
without the suffering. If we attempt to think the suffering without the condi-
tions (which is what happens, for instance, in conflict-resolution scenarios
in the Middle East or in South Africa, where explicit references to power
are excluded from the conversation), then a perilous obfuscation and
repression occurs.
In Fanons mirror stage, the idea that this I, who I am is reflected
back, but is reflected back to me in a way that robs me of my skin. This
reformulation of Lacan asks us to think about being reflected back and
robbed at the same time; it makes us question the way that misrecognition
works. Something similar happens when Fanon remarks that he walks into
the movie theatre and waits for the black man to appear. He waits for
himself, and he knows that he will arrive at some point or another. He
appears on the screen, and assents to the terms of interpellation: There I
am, right? If I can offer a paraphrase here, it seems to me that Fanon is
saying, Im out there, framed, against my will, and in ways that are foreign
to me, but which I also recognize as my own, because that foreign image
constitutes the term by which place and legibility is reserved for me
under the current configurations of racist conditions. One can see the refor-
mulation of the Lacanian/Althusserian juncture in that scene in which he
waits for the visual reflection of himself in the movie theatre, or takes in the
racist taunting by the child on the street: Look, a nigger! He is, in effect,

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136 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

recognized at such moments, but the price of recognition is high. He exists

socially at such moments, but the price of existence is non-existence. To be
recognized or reflected back under such conditions and through such
means is to be reduced to what does not exist, to unliveable life. Of course,
as he writes, as he narrates the scene, there is another question for the I
who is at issue here, since the I who appears in writing seems to be at a
distance from the scene, watching the racist insult on the street, watching
himself waiting in the cinema for himself to arrive. Do we want to say that
a certain kind of splitting and repetition of the I allows for the social
conditions of racism to become specified in the making and unmaking of
the subject? The impossible and illegible I nevertheless draws upon
another discursive condition to expose and criticize the one that would level
the I to the point of non-existence. Here language is essentially linked to
survival, but no one survives in a pure language. It is the writing on eman-
cipation and freedom from which he draws and which, in turn, draws him
as a figure who can and does write with and against the conditions of his
own construction.

VB: In Giving an Account of Oneself you draw on Laplanches argument that

the infant is inaugurated, that the me emerges through the overwhelming
and generalised seduction of the sexualised adult world (2005: 97). What
has been your experience of engaging Laplanche? What is it about
Laplanches theory that attracts your attention? For those unfamiliar with
Laplanche, is there a specific manner in which he differs from classic
psychoanalytic accounts that is important to you?

JB: I am impressed that this analyst in his 80s argues that we cannot assume
that families are made of a mother and a father, and when were talking
about the infant, the primary impressions an infant registers, were talking
about a scene in which what he calls the adult world operates upon the
child. Where are the sacred norms of Mother and Father?
No matter how gently an infant is treated, the handling is always to
some extent unwilled, since what we might call a will has not been formed.
No infant has entered into a contract with an attending set of adults, even
as there are crucial contracts at work in the law that seek to protect infants
against harm. Even the most attentive and loving modes of handling the
infant are impingements that can come from several directions; theres no
single social form to that impingement.
For a psychoanalyst to say that Oedipalization does not depend on
there being a mother and a father, or a nuclear family, or even that
Oedipalization is itself overrated as the formative structure, is quite incred-
ible. There are US feminists, such as Jessica Benjamin, who have done a
great deal to re-think the pre-Oedipal and to shift the focus away from the
Oedipal to other formative relations. Laplanche also makes a distinct
contribution here. For him, what is most important is to think about how an
infant in the early years is overwhelmed by signifiers from the social world,

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signifiers that are inscrutable and overwhelming, and that theres an

impingement of adult sexuality. In a way, Laplanche reintroduces the seduc-
tion theory, but he alters it fundamentally. What is conveyed to (impinged
upon) the child is not necessarily a desire for the child, and it is not neces-
sarily the effort to bring the child into an explicit and incestuous sexual
relation (though it can take that form). Rather, Laplanche is drawing atten-
tion to the ambivalent and insistent presence of an adult sexuality that is
not only in the neighbourhood of the young child, but that acts upon that
child, even entering the young child and prompting and forming the childs
own desire. Some other set of desires become interiorized in such a way
that ones own desire is prompted and structured by this alterity; the
imprint of these others desires makes ones own desire possible, but also
makes ones own desire permanently enigmatic. In Freudian terms,
Laplanche has not only given a fresh reformulation of the seduction theory,
demoted the Oedipal complex and the presumptions of the heterosexual
family, but has drawn new attention to infantile helplessness as a promis-
ing point of departure for rethinking sexual formation.
With infantile helplessness, something new happens. In relation to
what, for instance, is the infant helpless? Well, the infant is helpless in rela-
tionship to all this language, all these signifiers that are carrying adult sexu-
ality and adult desire, circulating but also traversing the infant. The infant
cant yet fathom this linguistic world of sexuality, even though the infant is
conscripted into that world of sexuality by all the ways that language
operates in and around itself. Its an important framework because it doesnt
de-sexualize the infant, but neither does it impute incestuous desire as the
basis of sexuality. It allows for there to be a kind of implication of the infant
in the sexual world from the start without making any presumptions about
what form that will take. The framework also marks the kind of radical asym-
metry that is involved and implies certain kinds of ethical dispositions
towards that asymmetry. No adult can purify the environment of sexuality
without precisely communicating repression, but if the impinging sexual
environment is operative, then the question is, How is it there? How ought
it to be there? This leads to very concrete questions about how children are
cared for, and how their bodies are understood, or whether autonomy is
granted, or how it is discussed, or even the ethics of the touch. Indeed, the
infant is delivered over to a touch that he/she could have never chosen and
this happens at the mundane level of literally taking a child out of the bath
when he or she says no. So un-chosen touch is, in some sense, the pre-
condition of survival, even of what we might eventually call autonomy
and I see no way around this point. We all have to be picked up, we all have
to be held, we all have to be fed; theres all this, as it were, forcible bodily
contact. And without it, theres no survival. Indeed, without it there could
be no love; there could be no capacity for love. Its a very peculiar fact. You
cant imagine that all relationships are contractual and raise a child!
If forcible contact is necessary for survival, then it becomes all the
more important to think carefully about what kinds of impingements are

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138 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

necessary for survival and flourishing, and what kind are not. These ethical
matters, as urgent and as necessary as they are, do not, cannot, take into
account all the ways that impingement happens, since part of what is
conveyed is precisely what remains enigmatic and unconscious in the adult.
Still, ethics can and does take place in this sea of unknowing.

VB: I know that recently you have been thinking about Arendts work on
responsibility and re-reading Eichmann in Jerusalem (1984[1963]) In your
paper on Arendt you consider how Arendt places herself in the position of
judge in her writing; she sentences Eichmann. How does that peculiar
moment in her text relate to your own modes of (textual) judgement?
Furthermore, in Arendt you find, again, this emphasis on a plurality within
the subjects sociality, i.e. Arendts two-in-one-ness. You say this two-in-
one-ness is the very precondition of responsibility. Arendt argues some-
thing similar later on. In her so-called apology for Heidegger, an essay
written for his eightieth birthday, she depicted him as erring in his attempt
to move into the public world of human affairs. Heideggers retreat to the
seclusion of his thinking was an entirely appropriate response to his colli-
sion with the public world, she suggests, for thinking requires essential
seclusion from the world (1978: 299). Arendts position seems to be that,
unlike Eichmann, Heidegger recognized his error and restored his capacity
for judgement by retreating and thinking in the place of stillness appro-
priate for thought (Bradshaw, 1989: 70), concurring with Heideggers own
position in his Letter on Humanism that thinking must not be inscribed
in a technical horizon as a means toward acting or making but may
be regarded as the pursuit of thinking Being, that which is farther than
all beings and yet nearer to man than every being (1993: 234). For the
Arendt of Thinking and Moral Considerations, and of The Life of the Mind
(1978), thinking can prevent immoral action in the world, and therefore it
has to become ascribed to everybody; it cannot be a privilege of the few
(quoted in Bradshaw, 1989: 73). What should we make of this set of
arguments? Where is your thought leading you on philosophy and its
relationship to judgement?

JB: Its true that in my recent work on the problem of giving an account of
oneself Im trying to think about ethical modes of relationality that do not
centre on judgement. I think Deleuze famously, at one point, calls for an
ethics without judgement. I worry that the kind of over-determination of
judgement within the contemporary political field has produced a kind of
high morality, a suspicion of any kind of thinking that makes us try to rethink
our moralism, or rethink the fixity of our normative judgements of a certain
kind. So I certainly have, in my own way, cast certain kinds of suspicions
on judgement. This does not mean that there are no strong normative aspi-
rations in my recent work, especially on war, but that the struggle to realize
certain normative goals is not the same as making judgement into the central
feature of an ethical philosophy. Of course, this may also turn out to be a

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way in which I differ from Arendt, though some of what she writes about
judgement is surprising in good ways.
I have found Arendt interesting for two different reasons. What I liked
about her idea of judgement is that she makes use of aesthetic judgement
to think about politics. So its not Kants categorical imperative, its not even
moral judgement as he lays it out in various ways, its aesthetic judgement.
And that kind of judgement has a performative character, as Bonnie Honig
(1995) has pointed out. But it is also about a judgement that seeks to respond
to new historical circumstances without recourse to established guidelines
or rules which isnt to say that its fully spontaneous, although sometimes,
lamentably, she talks about the spontaneous productions of the imagination
in ways that betray a rather stunning romanticism. Whats quite useful is to
suggest that sometimes we can and must judge precisely when we dont have
firm precedents by which to judge, which means that judgement cannot be
understood as an application of pre-existing rules (rules which are presumed
to be sufficient to any and all of the circumstances to which they will be
applied). In a way, she reworks the theory of judgement in light of new
historical circumstances, the task of judging Eichmann, for instance. That
interests me.
Arendt offers an ontology of the subject: what kind of being must we
be in order to be responsible? In her view, we have to be, in some sense,
divided, in order to be responsible. Of course, this goes against ideas of
de-cision that draw from the etymology of that term to suggest that a cut
or rupture is overcome through decision, and that decision is central to
responsibility. It may be that Arendt is offering an alternative to this view,
one that bases responsibility on a notion of social plurality. More important
than individual decision-making (which seems to presuppose both a liberal
ontology of individualism and heroic action as a model for ethics) is social
cohabitation and the norms that it yields. Over and against those who have
caustically remarked that the divided subject can never supply a ground
for ethics, Arendt reverses the formulation we must be divided in order to
be responsible.

VB: So divided in the sense of thinking this two-in-one-ness?

JB: Yes. This two-in-one-ness that she ascribes to thinking is related to the
plurality she ascribes to the social-political world more generally, and I
think she is, as it were, of two minds about this particular problem! Some-
times she takes a more Heideggerian view and tries to separate thinking as
an activity that happens either by myself or with one other, and then reserves
action as something that happens in concert with others more than two
and which belongs to the domain of plurality and politics. There are several
moments where the plurality that belongs to politics, though, seems to be
implied by the thinking that belongs to the pre-political domain of the
solitary or the dyadic. And so Im interested in the chiasmic relation that
links the two. I think she cannot, with consistency, hold the Heideggerian

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140 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

position. As much as she tries to defend Heidegger by praising what he has

to say about thinking and deflecting from what he has to say about politics,
she seems to re-engage the distinction between the two. She describes
thinking on various occasions as implying a certain kind of political respon-
sibility (responsibility under dictatorship requires thinking) and as implying
a plurality to which we belong (one is minimally social when one thinks).
My sense is that her own ambivalence vis-a-vis Heideggers philosophy
comes out, but in the ways that she inconsistently maintains the distinction
between thinking and acting. I think she does sometimes claim, as you
yourself point out, that thinking can prevent a moral action in the world,
and it is true that she holds everyone accountable to this. She is quite strict
on this matter, and there seem to be only two thinking possibilities for her.
She doesnt have any sympathy with the idea that maybe, depending on
whether and how one is confined and coerced, one finds oneself in a kind
of grey zone in Primo Levis sense, where one is coerced, so one is trying
to act, if one can, to ameliorate suffering or refuse complicity, but one is
also trying to live. She has some morally pure ideas not only about what true
thinking is, but what morally right action is, in that case. Im not sure many
people could have lived up to her standards there, or whether she thinks it
is relevant to understand the conditions of extreme coercion under which
moral decisions were made.
Heidegger does, of course, make this extremely important claim that
thinking must not be inscribed in a technical horizon. I was brought up on
that notion within the philosophy departments where I studied, and I
continue to believe that, though it probably bears some reconsideration! I
think it would be terrible if thinking became a pure instrument understood
on a technical model. For Arendt, judgement is not techne, it is a kind of
poesis, or, indeed, phronesis. So there are ways of being practical or active
without subscribing to the instrumentalist model. So if we were to think
about what Arendts kind of true rejoinder to Heidegger might be, it seems
to me shes saying, Look, we dont just live in a world in which we have
thinking on the one hand, and techne on the other, we have thinking on the
one hand, and it can lead to practice, praxis, phronesis, poesis, all of which
are modes of action that are different from techne. So, I would prefer that
she owned the more robust rejoinder than she, in fact, probably does.
It is probably worthwhile to note something about the judgement that
she does perform in Eichmann in Jerusalem, where she simulates the death
sentence against him. Im not at all sure she can justify the death penalty,
and although she seeks recourse to it, I dont actually see that she offers an
explicit justification. What she faults him for is his decision to cohabit with
one part of the existing human population and not another, and that he
thinks he can decide with whom he will cohabit on the earth. It is not just
a matter of with whom he decides to have proximity, but who will live and
who will die as an inhabitant of the earth. She is arguing that we have no
choice about those with whom we cohabit the earth, that the conditions of
cohabitation are prior to contract, prior to voluntary assent, and prior to

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decision. The ones who live here with us are the ones whose lives we are
obligated to protect by the sheer fact of this coexistence. If norms are yielded
from involuntary cohabitation, then Arendt conducts here a critique of a
liberal contract theory. We never got to choose, we never entered into a
contract. There are those we never chose, and who are contingently there,
but who we are, nevertheless, obligated not to kill. I think there is a little
bit of a Levinasian echo in there, the one place where the two of them
suggest that obligations emerge from unwilled domains of proximity and
cohabitation, not from contract. I hope to pursue this connection in time.

VB: Ive always found it provocative that she would reserve certain obliga-
tions for the political realm; by contrast, her idea of the social seeks to
protect the freedom of associations irrespective of egalitarian or perhaps
even ethical obligation. As in the moment when she explains that although
she would not wish to, If I choose to go on holiday with just Jews, then I
should be free to do so, because the social does not and should not require
the same obligations as the public or political. So in a sense thats what shes
suggesting is happening here with Eichmann, that he was complicit with the
wish to destroy these distinctions that was integral to German National
Socialisms vision, to remove the social altogether. But how far do we need
her distinctions to make this point? Her distinctions are often perplexing
and seem to lead her off course. With the Little Rock essay, for example,
where she got herself into this counter-intuitive position, because she held
so firmly to her own distinctions, it seems to me. They dont hold in that
instance, and that collapsing of the schema cannot be resolved simply by
saying well, the school is a peculiar institution, an exception.

JB: I think thats right. One has to wonder about those exceptions. Theres
a struggle about whether or not Arendt is a communitarian or whether shes
a universalist and I can see why there would be an inevitable tension there.
What I like about the idea of plurality is that everything in Eichmann leads
you to think, Oh, shes going to say, As a Jew, I sentence you. She cant
say that and does not say that. She faults the Israeli state for speaking as
the Jewish people; at the same time she thinks, Oh well, they have a right
to hold this trial, the Jews have not been able to try their oppressors. You
can hear her vacillate. But when she speaks against Eichmann, its in the
name of plurality; not as a Jew, but in the name of an inevitable plurality
that has to be preserved. And yet what does she do in the name of that
plurality? She sentences him to death. Of course, fictionally, but at that
moment she is effectively deciding with whom to share the earth and with
whom not to share the earth, and distinguishing the conditions under which
that can be done legitimately and illegitimately. So we have to ask, can she
hold to that idea of plurality, or is she saying that the one exception to the
right to life, which seems both to belong to and obligate every other inhab-
itant, would be those who plan or execute genocide? So the death penalty
is reserved for those individuals who seek to destroy some part of the

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142 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

population. And then, if we ask who is legitimately in the position to make

the decision about the death sentence, we do not exactly get an answer.
Her position engenders many exceptions. It cannot extricate itself from
the concrete instance, which always seems to compromise the universality
of the principle. I agree that sometimes she ends up tripping over her own
stipulative definitions and distinctions, but other times it seems as if
judgement is the least rigid and most flexible of practices.

VB: But you have found, in Arendt Im thinking of the lecture that you
gave at Goldsmiths the possibility of another vision of Israel that you
wanted to reassert, or maybe, just remind people of?

JB: Well, I think the idea of plurality in the name of which she indicts
Eichmann actually relates to her idea of federations as non-sovereign modes
of government. After all, she thinks none of us have a right to decide with
whom we inhabit the world: cohabitation is not an effect of contract, but an
obligation that is pre-contractual. She offers a very trenchant critique of
sovereignty in some ways, at least theoretically, and she offers a distinct
alternative to the rush to Schmidt that weve seen in recent years. In the
years 19458, she really struggled to support the bi-national alternative for
Palestine proposed by Martin Buber and Judah Magnus.
One must remember that bi-nationalism was also part of at least one
strain of Judaism. It was part of Bubers cultural Zionism, so that bi-nation-
alism was one of the meanings of Zionism. Now it has become anti-Zionism.
It resonated, I think, with some of Arendts ideas of plurality, federation,
cohabitation, all of these notions. But she was very aware that a state forma-
tion that presupposes a homogeneous community or nation, or nationality
as a precondition of citizenship, would, under modern conditions, always
produce a set of refugees or stateless persons, so that the nation-state
implies a structural reproduction of the refugee problem. And its why she
took an extraordinary historical view on the concentration camps, situating
it within the refugee problem after the First World War; she traced it back
to earlier forced migrations in the 20th century, and then to more contem-
porary ones in Palestine and in India after the partition. She was really
trying to understand what it is about the nation-state that seems systemati-
cally to reproduce the refugee problem. She understood Israel to be commit-
ting that crime of trying to hold to a nation-state model that it should know
could only produce the very problem of statelessness under which the Jews,
themselves, had suffered. So why force that upon another population?
In a way it was the lesson of the concentration camps and the expul-
sion of the Jews that made her crystallize her critique of the nation-state in
a certain way, and led more directly to her questioning of Jewish sovereignty
as the basis of citizenship for the state of Israel. Its especially important
when people say, Oh well, the conditions of World War Two led inexorably
to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, as sanctuary. But sanctuary
for whom, and at the expense of whom? She was asking those questions as

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early as 1946, saying, Wait a minute. Were learning the wrong lesson here.
Theres a different Zionism, and theres a different notion of cohabitation.
Thats why she really struggled for the federated bi-national proposal, which
won support very temporarily in 1947. Now, that plan may not have worked,
and perhaps it, too, was mired in colonial presumptions that are finally
unworkable and unacceptable. But I thought it was a worthy endeavour, and
would have initiated a different history, if implemented.

VB: Im wondering whether this idea of plurality, cohabitation and so on,

can serve us as a link to the arguments around the sexual politics and the
secular in your British Journal of Sociology essay? In your BJS essay on
sexual politics, torture and secular time, you consider how feminism and
the struggle for sexual freedom may have become signs of civilization,
deployed in ways that in recent events, especially in relation to this so-
called war on terror, depict Islam in simplified version. At the end of that
essay you argue via Benjamins 13th thesis in Theses on the Philosophy of
History that the present has to be understood as a difficult and interrup-
tive scene of multiple temporalities (2008: 20). You pit this against cultural
pluralism or a liberal discourse of rights. How does a focus on multiple
temporalities revise multicultural discourse? What have been the mistakes
of responses from these camps?

JB: Yes, okay. My argument in the BJS piece was over and against those
views like Thomas Friedmans the editorial writer in the United States
who claims that Islam hasnt yet achieved its modernity, or that Islam is
stuck in a childish mode of cultural development, or Islam represents an
anachronism that is somehow re-emerging in a frightening form in the
present. We might consider that there is no single normative present, and
that whatever present there is, is inhabited precisely by people who have
emerged into this time through a variety of narratives and means, and a
variety of ways of experiencing and framing temporality. But my point is not
simply to accept variety or multiplicity as such, but to think about these
scenes of interruption. Friedman would have us understand Islam as
somehow anachronistically interrupting the present or causing a problem
within the present. But what if that experience of interruption is, in fact, the
experience of the now what Benjamin calls now time (Jetztzeit). What if
what characterizes the present is precisely the situation where established
frames of reference are called into question through modes of cultural
encounter and translation that require that we think something new, or find
a new way of thinking?
This recalls Arendts idea of judgement, in that it has to respond to
new historical situations and cant always rely on past precedent. So what
happens when past precedent no longer works, or we cant assume a single
monolithic history that delivers us all into the same present? Were up
against these conflictual and, I would say, promising interruptions, as a
mode of life. Cultural pluralism cannot describe this well enough; it

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144 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

presumes that there are distinct temporalities or distinct spatialities, or

distinct cultures, and what we need to do is come up with frameworks that
provide for modes of recognition and participation of each separate domain.
Such a model doesnt give us a way of actually understanding the modes of
contact between such presumptively discrete domains, or how they inter-
rupt one another, or how they even through contact and interruption
reformulate and remake one another. Its that particular historical process
that Im interested in: what are the venues in which that can happen, and
happen well? Maybe group rights moves us away from ideas of liberal indi-
vidualism, but it doesnt actually help us to understand these sites of
contact, interruption and reformulation, that are perhaps the most impor-
tant to address as part of the contemporary political culture. That brings us
to the question of faith and critique we could move there if you want.

VB: Yes. On the question of faith and possibility of critique: is there some-
thing about the attachment to a faith that is qualitatively different from the
attachment to other historically given discourses/domains/identifications?
Im thinking of Roxanna Eubens (2002) argument that suicide bombers
might be thought of as enacting an action on earth in an Arendtian sense,
rather than as blindly following faith an argument that makes commit-
ments to a faith worldly and also Talal Asads work on how secularism
becomes centrally defined as the ability to debate ones beliefs, even most
fundamental beliefs, as the sign of secular maturity such that those who
act on the basis of faith can be cast as madly clinging to their beliefs. I
feel sympathetic to these interventions, that blur distinctions, that show faith
enacts itself on earth and that secularism has a belief structure and an
intimate relationship to religious faith. But I wonder whether strong faith
of any religion, even of secular faith as it were may not wish to under-
stand itself as worldly, by definition, nor treat its tenets as historical. So my
query is about the politics of critique. The direction of your work, and my
work too, has been precisely to encourage people to understand the histor-
ical specificity of their situation, of their beliefs, of their very sense of them-
selves. But is it always the role of critique to make subjects question and
ex-pose themselves? Its a question that I dont know how to go about
answering, but I think as teachers we need to consider!

JB: Dogmatism is happy to reside in religion and secularism alike, that is

the problem! I think there can be secular and religious forms of dogmatism,
but Im not sure if faith always translates into dogmatism. So, for instance,
Jacob in the Old Testament wrestles with the angels; its about not knowing
whether one believes or doesnt believe. So how are we to understand that
wrestling as religious practice? We could point to Christian traditions of
doubt that remain unresolved, or places in various other religions where
scepticism, doubt, struggle with how or whether to believe, or how to trans-
late ones belief into conduct, is part of religious reflection, speculation and
practice. So I think we have to be careful here.

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Im not so interested in faith as a state of mind, as either a suspension

of cognitive activity or breach in rationality, which is what defenders of
rationality regularly worry about. In their view, If I have faith, I do not
think, and they are constantly asking about the propositional content of a
belief, treating belief as a cognitive disposition, I believe in God, or, rather,
a breach in cognition. Whats much more interesting, within the pedagogi-
cal frame, is to think about religion in terms of subject formation on the one
hand, and modes of conduct on the other. So maybe, with Saba Mahmood
(2004), Im bringing this back to a certain Foucauldian framework. If I say
that Im of a certain faith, or that I have certain beliefs, I may be actually
saying something about the sense of who I am or what makes my life
intelligible, the modes of belonging that establish my sense of who I am
a kind of matrix with which I operate and through which I was formed
that is crucial for my way of understanding, and it may be that that matrix
is itself evolving or goes through all kinds of challenges; it may be that Im
actually talking more about my formation as a subject than I am about the
cognitive content of my belief structure. And even when we do talk about
faith or belief, which have to be distinguished from one another, were almost
always also talking about modes of conduct. Even the speech act in which
faith is declared is a practice of sorts. Very few religious people simply
maintain their religion either through recourse to faith as the suspension of
cognitive activity or through maintaining a set of beliefs, understood as a
cognitive disposition that takes its cue from a particular kind of content. For
the most part, religious questions are about how to live or how to conduct
oneself, and these questions are formed, posed and lived within certain
lexicons that form a kind of horizon for existence.

VB: In some ways, the hermeneutic tradition requests that we ask of our
students something very intimate. It seems to me, that to question the forma-
tion of yourself as a subject I know from teaching Gender Trouble for
example is a very intimate question to discuss. Maybe theres a sort of
arrogance to the university that it is the proper place to ask these questions.
But perhaps the place to doubt is exactly as you suggest in your comments
on biblical teaching situations in which people have already made a first
gesture of faith. Its difficult to reproduce that commitment and safety in the
contemporary university, although a large part of me longs to defend that,
and I would even say occasionally it is achieved. But it is a very elevated
idea of the university, in times when the getting of a degree is becoming
more and more a technical exercise, so that it seems inappropriate to attempt
to pose such radical doubting of the self. I mean, every part of me wants it
to happen there, but on the other hand, Im just not convinced; were not all
Socrates!

JB: Sometimes the university can function as a kind of secular church in

which the presumption reigns: We are the place, and the only place, that
truly can undertake critique. But since when is critique in the business of

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146 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

debunking? I dont think it matters whether someone belongs to a given faith

or not, that faith is doubtless also an academic subject, and can be treated
that way. So if we are studying Islam, we would have to study the succes-
sive revisions of that doctrine; in other words, we would have to consider
what a critical practice is that is part of the very formulation and transmis-
sion of the religion. There are several competing schools, different regional
versions, and criticisms among different practitioners and theorists of the
religion. Theres lots to be studied there that doesnt necessarily mean that
you have to ask the question of whether it is true or not. Perhaps you have
to find out the conditions under which its truth claims are posited and
contested but that is another issue. And you can ask lots of questions
without ever saying its right or wrong, or true or false. It would be a mistake
to think that if you ask these questions you must give up your allegiance.
The university can be a place where we consider the formations of
religious belief, or formations of religious subjects, or the history of certain
kinds of conduct or reading practices, or how religion works. And, depend-
ing on the circumstance, that could produce all kinds of misunderstandings
or interruptions, conflict, antagonism, demands for translation or revisions
in our understandings of, say, what secularism is or what religion is. Of
course, it would be invasive to tell a student that he or she could not possibly
believe X, because X was false. But if we seek to be non-invasive, then I
worry that that puts us into a tolerance model where everybody is just in
their separate corner with their own views, and weve despaired of the possi-
bility of some kind of actual conversation or mode of cultural translation
that would make exchange possible. There are modes of chic scepticism that
are part of secular elitism, where the presumption is that beliefs not
accepted by that secular perspective have to be destroyed; that isnt what
critique should or can be, even though it doubtless will raise questions that
produce unease or anxiety, to be sure.

VB: Your current work seems to be developing the notion of vulnerability

that you highlighted in Precarious Life, and formulating a notion of affec-
tive sociality. At a recent lecture (at Birkbeck College) you argued through
a discussion of Freud that the loss of discreteness is an inevitable part of
sociality that we have to loosen the selfs boundary to recognize we are
fundamentally sustained by others . . . if my survivability depends on you
then my boundary is a function of the relation. You linked this point to
Klein and the question of survival as preceding that of guilt. For you these
explorations are, as those of Precarious Life, bound up with the question of
war its specific channelling of affective response. Can you talk us through
what these connections are?

JB: Maybe this follows, in a way, from what weve been talking about
throughout the questions of cohabitation and plurality. Since 2001, that
government discourse has sought to win over public opinion by promising
invulnerability; its made me think, Whats so popular or exciting about

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invulnerability, and whats actually being promised here? And it seems to

me that implicitly whats being promised is that, as a major First World
country the US has a right to have our borders remain impermeable,
protected from incursion, and to have our sovereignty guarantee our invul-
nerability to attack; at the same time, others, whose state formations are not
like our own, or who are not explicitly in alliance with us, are to be targeted
and presumptively treated as expungeable, as instrumentalizable, and
certainly not as enjoying the same kind of presumptive rights to invulnera-
bility that we do. So its led me to think about the differential distribution
of vulnerability and, in a corollary way, the differential distribution of griev-
ability whose lives are worth grieving and whose are not? Whose lives are
presumed, from the start, to be grievable and if lost, would be grieved, and
whose lives are, from the start, understood as already lost and so ungriev-
able. Ive been trying to think about what would it mean politically, say in
the US, to offer a discourse that moves against this idea of the differential
distribution of vulnerability. I think that the tortures in Abu Ghraib, for
instance, really produced a kind of horror in this country because we were
so preoccupied with defending ourselves against a presumed enemy that we
didnt actually understand that we could be guilty of war crimes ourselves,
as we surely have been. I think that particular kind of reflection was really
instrumental in changing public opinion about the US war efforts.
What does that imply? That if were outraged, if we are able to appre-
hend what happened in Abu Ghraib, then we have to extend the apprehen-
sion of vulnerability beyond some nationally bound population. That
suggests that, under contemporary global conditions, theres irrefutable
interdependency, so that any nation can be both aggressor and aggressed
upon, and theres no way of securing vulnerability against incursion; indeed,
some of the very military means through which the US seeks to secure
vulnerability against incursion heighten precarious conditions for popula-
tions everywhere, including its own. Its a kind of anti-war polemic that Im
involved in! Some of what Im saying is not particularly new, and maybe is
even predictable, but it does seem to me that weve seen the idea of vulner-
ability produced not just as weakness but as a kind of harm done to a sover-
eign self, which leads that phantasmatic sovereign to try to establish other
populations as definitionally vulnerable and maintain them in precarious
conditions. So how to understand that kind of split ideology, or however
one might put it, in relation to the problem of the differential distribution
of vulnerability.
Klein suggests that guilt as a phenomenon is an effort to inhibit a
destructive impulse, or to repair a bond that has been broken, and that the
reason for the inhibition or the repair has to do with securing conditions of
survivability. Because any and all of us feel a destructive impulse toward
those upon whom we depend most fundamentally. Now, you can, of course,
see that in the life of the child, within the family, such as it is, or within
interpersonal relations that are sustaining, desires for destruction call ones
own survival into question. It seems to me that this bind has a broader

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148 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

political salience. I must kill this other in order to survive, but my own
survival will be imperilled if I destroy this other it is the marriage of Klein
and Hegel. There is no way out of this dilemma without realizing that
survival is a function of interdependency. Part of the Obama appeal has
been an effort to re-enter international community, but I dont think cohab-
itation, or even Arendtian plurality, can ever be the same as international-
ism, because internationalism depends on the nation-state whereas
cohabitation is about populations who may or may not be citizen subjects,
who may very well be the refugees produced by the nation-state.
VB: In Who Sings the Nation-State?, you explicitly address the issue of nation-
states, distancing yourself, for one, from Agambens arguments (asking for
what I see as a sociological attention to different experiences of those living
at the edges or even outside the citizensovereign couplet). But your attention
is given more to the singing illegal residents of California, those supposedly
outside the nation-state, performing that from which they were supposedly
excluded you wanted to see in this performative contradiction a political
possibility. Acting like a citizen does not make one a citizen in any legal sense,
but it is nevertheless a call for protection and guarantee (Butler and Spivak,
2007: 65); it requests the legitimation of that freedom which is already,
minimally, being exercised. But is the biopolitical argument of Foucault on
which Agamben draws under-discussed here? It would allow, for example,
an attention to a state-reproduced caesura, a racism, that divides the people
who are gathered geographically in one place, that one might not see if one
begins from the moments of resistance, as it were.
JB: Foucault is absolutely right to call attention to ways in which the state
enacts racism, or produces a kind of racist division within the population,
or divides populations on the basis of certain kinds of racist criteria, and I
think in the US, for instance, the prison system is a brilliant example of
Foucaults thesis, right? The prison system is predominantly concerned with
the incarceration of black men, and so we have millions of black men who
are literally relieved of rights of citizenship through incarceration. Angela
Davis has pointed out that, in some ways, the contemporary prison system
in the US is the continued legacy of slavery a new mechanism for depriv-
ing voting rights. Were talking about ways of dividing and managing popu-
lations on the basis of race, and actually also producing racial significations,
so we now have very strong racist associations of black men with criminal-
ity in this country. It follows that we have a demographic distribution of the
population according to certain kinds of racist aims, that produces popula-
tions that are unprotected from violence prison populations who are
exposed to greater violence, who are exposed to greater situations of precar-
ity and who are largely considered to be ungrievable. Part of what I am doing
is specifying ways in which populations are differentially distinguished:
some of them are along lines of race, and some of them are along lines of
ethnicity and religion. They may well also be along lines of class and gender,
and even sexuality or able-bodiedness.

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My problem with Agamben is not that he seeks recourse to Foucault

on biopower. I think Foucault on biopower is crucial. Its that the idea of
bare life that he takes from Arendt is not fully compatible with the idea of
biopower. The idea of bare life is an idea of a life that is simply exposed to
power, that has been reduced to a kind of pre-political existence, a meta-
physically rudimentary life thats outside of the polis. Its not exactly outside,
it may be outside of a polis in the sense of the life of a non-citizen say
the life of somebody in prison, the life of somebody whos illegal or state-
less or a refugee. But that life is saturated in power. That is one reason we
cannot use the polis to delimit the field of the political. Thats the point at
which we need a more robust Foucauldian rejoinder to Agamben. Its not a
life thats outside the polis, and therefore outside of power. Hardly! Its
outside the polis and therefore saturated in power. It is not bare it is
mired. To be stripped of rights is already to be in the grip of power. We
cant be stripped without being stripped by some mechanism of power and
be maintained in a stripped mode without an apparatus of power, whether
it be the prison or some other institution of detention or disenfranchisement.

VB: Can I press you, finally, on the question of how your work relates to
recent debates that revisit vitalism? This work emphasizes the movement of
creativity whereas perhaps you have been more interested in tracing the
limitations of processes of becoming. The difference is between an under-
standing of difference as a constitutive citation (in discourse for example)
and difference as itself the motor of creativity. In the latter the notion of the
virtual while also historical constrains the (real) potential of things to
be otherwise. Elizabeth Groszs work has taken the latter route, re-reading
Bergson and Darwin, whereas you have remained somewhat distant from
both Deleuze and discussions of internal differentiation. Im wondering
about your distance from that sort of route and maybe most obviously from
Deleuze, from an emphasis on positivities, creativities and multiplicities,
although as Ive said to you before, Im always intrigued by the little Spinoza
moment when you quote Spinoza the desire to exist is an endlessly
exploitable one and I wonder whether this isnt a vital moment. It takes
us back to the psychoanalytic discussions of the infant as well.
Another related set of debates has emerged around the self-activity of
matter, or materiality as agential and productive in its own right, as Karen
Barad has put it. To cut a long story short referring to my short piece on
your work and the question of survival that you have seen you have been
focused on human interactions and questions of the ethical, but do you
recognize yourself as part of these debates on intra-activity that includes
material elements as themselves engaging each other (and humans)?

JB: There are certain moments in Deleuze I like, like his question, What
can a body do? I teach that, and theres something about that that I really
like, and especially thinking about vulnerability, because he is trying to
suggest that the more a body can be acted on, the more capacity it has for

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150 Theory, Culture & Society 27(1)

action. Thats an extremely interesting formulation; it reworks ideas of

passivity and activity, permeability and creativity, drawing clearly from
Spinoza. I think there are some people working on Deleuze like Paola
Marrati, who brings out this dimension of his work. A lot of my early work
on re-signification has Deleuzian and Bergsonian resonances the idea that
theres always a certain kind of possibility of becoming otherwise and
becoming what is not fully anticipated. Surely that was crucial to the kind
of temporality of gender I tried to articulate and to the question: what would
it mean to be neither man nor woman, but be working, living, within or
between those categories and yet spawning some new set of categories or
some new set of spaces outside or between? That strikes me as a perfectly
Foucauldian/Deleuzian conjuncture and problematic. So there are people
who have suggested that I am Deleuzian in that way one is not born a
woman but becomes one, therefore woman, the category, and all categories
of gender, are modes of becoming. I mean, I did say all those things, and I
wasnt always just looking at impasses or restrictions, so I think there is that
mode in what I do a continuing preoccupation with time, to be sure. And
Im interested in the inadvertent productivity of certain modes of resistance,
one thats not Hegelian in the end (or, rather, has no Hegelian end). Some-
thing new, for instance, happens in the Guantanamo poems, and something
new happens when the non-citizens sing the anthem but in each case, the
new emerges in the midst of a citation.
On the other hand, I cannot operate from a presumption of plenitude
(neither plenitude nor lack as foundations work for me). I think that the full
expunging of negativity from life is a beautiful fancy, and I can certainly
understand why some people want it. But I find it to be on the manic side;
it disavows difficulty and loss. So if I become the melancholic corrective to
the Deleuzian position, its not because I dont accept some parts of the
Deleuzian position, its just that I worry that some versions of the Deleuz-
ian position are so intent on the expulsion of the negative that theres some-
thing suspicious going on. Can there be a Deleuzian theory of mourning?
What would it even look like? What does it mean if mourning is precluded
from the theory? What kind of symptom does the theory become? That is
precisely what Freud called the manic phase of the denial of loss it is
necessary, to be sure, since it separates the one who survives from the one
who is dead, and there is some affirmation of life that takes place through
that process. But perhaps it is more important, more timely, to consider
notions of life that are bound up with transience, which is not necessarily
an exclusively negative thing. One could argue that the precariousness of
life is the ground or the basis upon which our obligations to shelter life
emerge. I also think, maybe, its a kind of modest conceit that keeping in
mind the transience or precariousness of life allows us to value life differ-
ently or more vigilantly, so it does translate into a more ethical position for
me. Im aware I dont have a full theory of life, and I am not sure life admits
of a full theory; Im particularly concerned not to be appropriated by any
kind of pro-life discourse that would be quite abominable.

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Bell New Scenes of Vulnerability, Agency and Plurality 151

Ann Fausto-Sterling did a wonderful job of rethinking the sexgender

distinction through using an interactive model, suggesting ways in which
materiality informs cultural articulation and vice versa, and Liz Grosz has
also taken that up in an important way. I have looked at Karen Barads
(2007) work, at Charis Thompsons (2005) work on reproductive technology,
both of whom are relocating agency in material contexts. Ive become more
and more interested in modes of agency that dont reside in human subjects,
and I think there can be institutional modes of agency that are distributed
throughout institutional scenes. When we talk about agency, we in fact need
to divorce it from the idea of the subject and allow it to be a complex chore-
ographed scene with many kinds of elements social, material, human at
work. I think something like that happens in Rayna Rapps (2000) analysis
of the pre-natal testing clinics, where she looks at all the actors in the field.
Charis Thompson, I think, does something very similar. She has a notion of
ontological choreography, which derived from a Haraway-like position that
suggests an invariable interaction of human and non-human elements in the
scene of agency.
VB: Thank you so much.

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Vikki Bell is Professor of Sociology at Goldsmiths, University of London.

Her most recent monograph is Culture & Performance (Berg, 2007), and she
is the author of numerous articles across the theoretical humanities,
including several that engage with the work of Judith Butler. [email:
[email protected]]

Judith Butler is the Maxine Elliot Professor in the Departments of Rhetoric

and Comparative Literature at the University of California, Berkeley, and is
the author of numerous works on philosophy and feminist and queer theory.
Her most recent monograph is Frames of War: When is Life Grievable?
(Verso, 2009).

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