WHITE HOUSE PROCEDURES FOR SAFEGUARDING

CLASSIFIED INFORMATION

HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MARCH 16, 2007

Serial No. 11028

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COMMITTEE ON OVERSISGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM

HENRY A. WAXMAN, California, Chairman
TOM LANTOS, California
TOM DAVIS, Virginia
EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
DAN BURTON, Indiana
PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida
ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana
DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania
DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
CHRIS CANNON, Utah
JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio
DIANE E. WATSON, California
DARRELL E. ISSA, California
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
KENNY MARCHANT, Texas
BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia
JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina
BRUCE L. BRALEY, Iowa
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California
Columbia
BILL SALI, Idaho
BETTY MCCOLLUM, Minnesota
JIM COOPER, Tennessee

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut
JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
PETER WELCH, Vermont
PHIL SCHILIRO, Chief of Staff
PHIL BARNETT, Staff Director
EARLEY GREEN, Chief Clerk
DAVID MARIN, Minority Staff Director

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CONTENTS
Page

Hearing held on March 16, 2007 ............................................................................

Statement of:
Knodell, James, Director, Office of Security, Executive Office of the President, the White House; and William Leonard, Director, Information
Security Oversight Office, National Archives and Records Administration .................................................................................................................
Knodell, James ..........................................................................................
Leonard, William .......................................................................................
Wilson, Valerie Plame, former employee, Central Intelligence Agency .......
Zaid, Mark, esquire; and Victoria Toensing, esquire .....................................
Toensing, Victoria ......................................................................................
Zaid, Mark .................................................................................................
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Davis, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, prepared statement of ........................................................................
Leonard, William, Director, Information Security Oversight Office, National Archives and Records Administration, prepared statement of .......
Toensing, Victoria, esquire, prepared statement of .......................................
Waxman, Chairman Henry A., a Representative in Congress from the
State of California, prepared statement of .................................................

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WHITE HOUSE PROCEDURES FOR

SAFEGUARDING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
FRIDAY, MARCH 16, 2007

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:16 a.m., in room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Henry A. Waxman
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Waxman, Cummings, Kucinich, Watson, Yarmuth, Van Hollen, Sarbanes, Davis of Virginia, and Westmoreland.
Staff present: Phil Schiliro, chief of staff; Phil Barnett, staff director and chief counsel; Kristin Amerling, general counsel; Karen
Lightfoot, communications director and senior policy advisor; David
Rapallo, chief investigative counsel; Roger Sherman, deputy chief
counsel; Theo Chuang, deputy chief investigative counsel; Michael
Gordon, senior investigative counsel; Susanne Sachsman, counsel;
Molly Gulland, assistant communications director; Earley Green,
chief clerk; Teresa Coufal, deputy clerk; Caren Auchman, press assistant; Zhongrui JR Deng, chief information officer; Bonney
Kapp, fellow; David Marin, minority staff director; Larry Halloran,
minority deputy staff director; Jennifer Safavian, minority chief
counsel for oversight and investigations; Anne Marie Turner and
Steve Castor, minority counsels; Christopher Bright, minority professional staff member; Nick Palarino, minority senior investigator
and policy advisor; Patrick Lyden, minority parliamentarian and
member services coordinator; Brian McNicoll, minority communications director; and Benjamin Chance, minority clerk.
Chairman WAXMAN. The meeting of the committee will come to
order. Today the committee is holding a hearing to examine how
the White House handles highly classified information.
In June and July 2003, one of the Nations most carefully guarded secrets, the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame Wilson, was repeatedly revealed by White House officials to members
of the media.
This was an extraordinarily serious breach of our national security. President George W. Bushs father, the former President Bush
said, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who exposed the names of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.
Today well be asking three questions. One, how did such a serious violation of our national security occur? Two, did the White
House take the appropriate investigative and disciplinary steps
COMMITTEE

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2
after the breach occurred? And three, what changes in White
House procedures are necessary to prevent future violations of our
national security from occurring?
For more than 3 years Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has
been investigating the leak for its criminal implications. By definition, Mr. Fitzgeralds investigation had an extremely narrow criminal focus. It did not answer the broader policy questions raised by
the release of Mrs. Wilsons identity. Nor did it seek to ascribe responsibility outside of the narrow confines of the criminal law.
As the chief investigative committee in the House of Representatives, our role is fundamentally different than Mr. Fitzgeralds. It
is not our job to determine criminal culpability. But it is our job
to understand what went wrong and to insist on accountability,
and to make recommendations to avoid future abuses. We begin
that process today.
This hearing is being conducted in open session. This is appropriate, but it is also challenging. Mrs. Wilson was a covert employee of the CIA. We cannot discuss all of the details of her CIA
employment in open session. I have met personally with General
Hayden, the head of the CIA, to discuss what I can and cannot say
about Mrs. Wilsons service. And I want to thank him for his cooperation and help in guiding us along these lines.
My staff has also worked with the Agency to assure these remarks do not contain classified information.
I have been advised by the CIA that even now after all that has
happened, I cannot disclose the full nature, scope, and character of
Mrs. Wilsons service to our Nation without causing serious damage to our national security interests.
But General Hayden and the CIA have cleared these following
comments for todays hearing.
During her employment at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was undercover.
Her employment status with the CIA was classified information,
prohibited by disclosure under Executive Order 12958.
At the time of the publication of Robert Novaks column on July
14, 2003, Mrs. Wilsons CIA employment status was covert. This
was classified information.
Mrs. Wilson served in senior management positions at the CIA
in which she oversaw the work for other CIA employees and she
attained the level of GS14, step 6 under the Federal pay scale.
Mrs. Wilson worked on some of the most sensitive and highly secretive matters handled by the CIA. Mrs. Wilson served at various
times overseas for the CIA.
Without discussing the specifics of Mrs. Wilsons classified work,
it is accurate to say that she worked on the prevention of the development and use of weapons of mass destruction against the United
States.
In her various positions at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson faced significant
risks to her personal safety and her life. She took on serious risks
on behalf of our country. Mrs. Wilsons work in many situations
had consequences for the security of her colleagues, and maintaining her cover was critical to protecting the safety of both colleagues
and others.
The disclosure of Mrs. Wilsons employment with the CIA had
several serious effects. First, it terminated her covert job opportu-

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3
nities with the CIA. Second, it placed her professional contacts at
greater risk. And third, it undermined the trust and confidence
with which future CIA employees and sources hold the United
States. This disclosure of Mrs. Wilsons classified employment status with the CIA was so detrimental that the CIA filed a crimes
report with the Department of Justice.
As I mentioned, Mrs. Wilsons work was so sensitive that even
now, she is still prohibited from discussing many details of her
work in public because of the continuing risks to CIA officials and
assets in the field and in the CIAs ongoing work.
Some have suggested that Mrs. Wilson did not have a sensitive
position with the CIA or a position of unusual risk. As a CIA employee, Mrs. Wilson has taken a life-long oath to protect classified
information even after her CIA employment has ended. As a result,
she cannot respond to most of the statements made about her.
I want to make clear, however, that any characterization that
minimizes the personal risk of Mrs. Wilson that she accepted in
her assignments is flatly wrong. There should be no confusion on
this point. Mrs. Wilson has provided great service to our Nation
and has fulfilled her obligation to protect classified information admirably and with confidence and she will uphold it again today.
That concludes the characterizations that the CIA is permitting
us to make today. To these comments, I want to add a personal
note. For many in politics, praising the troops and those who defend our freedom is second nature. Sometimes it is done in sincerity and sometimes it is done with cynicism, but almost always we
dont really know who the people are. We dont know theyre out
there, we dont know who those people are that are out there. They
are our abstract heroes, whether they are serving in the armed
services or whether theyre serving in the CIA.
Two weeks ago this committee met some real heroes face-to-face
when we went to visit Walter Reed. Every Member was appalled
at what we learned. Our treatment of the troops didnt match our
rhetoric. Fortunately, Mrs. Wilson hasnt suffered physical harm
and faces much more favorable circumstances now than some of
the soldiers that we met last week. But she too has been one of
those people fighting to protect our freedom, and she, like thousands of others, was serving our country bravely and anonymously.
She didnt ask that her identity be revealed but it was, repeatedly.
And that was an inexcusable breach of the responsibilities our
country owes to her.
Once again our actions did not match our rhetoric. I want to
thank Mrs. Wilson for the tremendous service she gave to our
country and recognize the remarkable personal sacrifices that she
and countless others have made to protect our national security.
You and your colleagues perform truly heroic work and what
happened to you not only should never have happened, but we
should all work to make sure it never happens again. Thank you
very much.
[The prepared statement of Chairman Henry A. Waxman follows:]

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13
Chairman WAXMAN. I want to yield to Mr. Davis, the ranking
member of our committee. And in doing so, I want to thank him
for his cooperation in this hearing. This has been a complicated
hearing. It is much more complicated than most of our hearings.
We had to decide what we could and what we couldnt say, what
we could and couldnt ask, whether it would be an open session or
closed session, etc. And I want to thank Mr. Davis for the tremendous cooperation he has given and I do recognize him at this point.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you, Chairman Waxman. I want
to first start by congratulating you on your passage of important
reform legislation this week. We adopted bipartisan bills crafted in
this committee to strengthen the Freedom of Information Act, disclose donors to Presidential libraries, expand access to Presidential
records and to fortify most of all protections. Given those accomplishments, it is ironic that we in Sunshine Week of the annual observance of open governmentwith a more partisan hearing on
how to best keep secrets.
Let me state at the outset that the outing of Mrs. Wilsons identity was wrong, and we have every right to look at this and investigate it. But I have to confess, Im not sure what were trying to
accomplish today, given all the limitations that the chairman has
just described that have been put on us by the CIA.
I ostensibly called to examine White House procedures for handling and protecting classified information. The hearings lead witness never worked at the White House. If she knows about security
practices there, she cant say much about them in a public forum.
We do know that she worked at the CIA. That now well-known fact
raises some very different questions about how critical and difficult
it is to protect the identity of individuals with covert status.
But, again, those are questions we probably cant say much about
in a public forum without violating the various security safeguards
the majority claims to be worried about at the White House. Under
these circumstances, perhaps a hypothetical case is the best way to
describe the futility of trying to enforce the Intelligence Identities
Protection Act in this decidedly nonjudicial venue.
Lets say, for example, a committee staff is told to identify a CIA
witness for a hearing on security practices. He or she calls the
Agency and asks to speak with official A. Official A is not in so the
call is routed to official B, who identifies him or herself by name
and title and answers the staffers question. Thinking official B
would be a fine witness, the staff then calls the Congressional Research Service or a friend at another committee to find out more
about official B, but official B happens to be a covert agent. In
passing the name, title and CIA affiliation around, has the staff
member violated the law against disclosure? Probably not. But you
would have to be looking through a pretty thick political prism to
see an intentional unauthorized disclosure in that context, and that
happened.
In the case of Mrs. Wilson, the majority stresses the fact the disclosure of her status triggered a crimes report by the CIA and the
Justice Department. Allegations against White House officials and
reporters were thoroughly vetted, but after spending 6 months and
millions of dollars, the special counsel charged no one with violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. The lack of pros-

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14
ecution under the act show those disclosures probably occurred in
a similarly nonintentional context, lacking the requisite knowledge
of covert status or the intention to disclose that status without authorization.
No process can be adopted to protect classified information that
no one knows is classified, just as no one can be prosecuted for unauthorized disclosure of information that no one ever said was protected. So this looks to me more like a CIA problem than a White
House problem. If the Agency doesnt take sufficient precautions to
protect the identity of those who engage in covert work, no one else
can do it for them.
The same law meant to protect secret identities also requires an
annual report to Congress on the steps taken to protect the highly
sensitive information. But were told few if any such reports exist
from the CIA. Who knows what information needs to be protected
and how they are told. Is there a list officials can check against?
Do CIA briefers know when material given to executive branch officials references a covert agent, or are they cautioned not to repeat
the name? How is it made known, and to whom, when the 5-year
protection period for formerly covert agents has elapsed?
Those are the questions that need to be asked about the safeguards and classified information, but we wont hear from the CIA
today because this is an open forum.
Given all that, I suspect were going to probably waste some time
talking about things we cant talk about. And that is unfortunate.
Unfortunate an individual possibly still in a covert status was publicly identified, unfortunate executive branch officials got anywhere
near this media maelstrom rather than focus on more serious problems. That is a disappointment to me. And unfortunate that this
has become so politicized.
On this side, were not here to defend or attack anyone. In an
open session, we hope to shed some sunshine on the workings of
government. I have to say, I am not sure thats going to happen
today, but I thank our witnesses for trying. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Tom Davis follows:]

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17
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.
Our first witness is Mrs. Valerie Plame Wilson. She is a former
covert CIA employee whose service to this country included work
involving the prevention of the development and use of weapons of
mass destruction against our Nation. Her employment status was
publicly disclosed in July 2003, effectively terminating her covert
job opportunities within the CIA.
Mrs. Wilson, it is the practice of this committee that all witnesses are administered an oath, and I would like to ask you to
stand and raise your right hand.
[Witness sworn.]
Chairman WAXMAN. The record will reflect the fact that the witness answered in the affirmative. Before we begin the questioning
period, I wanted to underscore to members of the committee that
while it is important that Mrs. Wilson have the opportunity to provide testimony that will help us understand the significance of the
disclosure of her CIA employment status, we should not be seeking
classified information from Mrs. Wilson in this open forum, and we
need to respect that she may in some cases have to decline to respond on the grounds of doing so would risk disclosure of sensitive
information.
Mrs. Wilson, were pleased to have you here. Thank you very
much for coming to our committee today. And I want to recognize
you for an opening statement. There is a button on the base of the
mic. Be sure to press it in and pull it closely enough to you so you
can be heard.
STATEMENT OF VALERIE PLAME WILSON, FORMER
EMPLOYEE, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY

Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members

of the committee. My name is Valerie Plame Wilson and I am honored to be invited to testify under oath before the Committee on
Oversight and Government Reform on the critical issue of safeguarding classified information.
I am grateful for this opportunity to set the record straight. I
have served the United States loyally and to the best of my ability
as a covert operations officer for the Central Intelligence Agency.
I worked on behalf of the national security of our country, on behalf
of the people of the United States, until my name and true affiliation were exposed in the national media on July 14, 2003, after
a leak by administration officials.
Today I can tell this committee even more. In the run-up to the
war with Iraq, I worked in the Counterproliferation Division of the
CIA, still as a covert officer whose affiliation with the CIA was
classified. I was to discover solid intelligence for senior policymakers on Iraqs presumed weapons of mass destruction programs.
While I helped to manage and run secret worldwide operations
against this WMD target from CIA headquarters in Washington, I
also traveled to foreign countries on secret missions to find vital intelligence.
I loved my career because I love my country. I was proud of the
serious responsibilities entrusted to me as a CIA covert operations
officer, and I was dedicated to this work. It was not common knowledge on the Georgetown cocktail circuit that everyone knew where

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18
I worked. But all of my efforts on behalf of the national security
of the United States, all of my training, all of the value of my years
of service were abruptly ended when my name and identity were
exposed irresponsibly.
In the course of the trial of Vice President Cheneys former chief
of staff, Scooter Libby, I was shocked by the evidence that emerged.
My name and identity were carelessly and recklessly abused by
senior government officials in both the White House and the State
Department. All of them understood that I worked for the CIA, and
having signed oaths to protect national security secrets, they
should have been diligent in protecting me and every CIA officer.
The CIA goes to great lengths to protect all of its employees, providing at significant taxpayers expense painstakingly devised covers for its most sensitive staffers. The harm that is done when a
CIA cover is blown is grave, but I cant provide details beyond that
in this public hearing. But the concept is obvious. Not only have
breaches of national security endangered CIA officers, it has jeopardized and even destroyed entire networks of foreign agents who,
in turn, risk their own lives and those of their families to provide
the United States with needed intelligence. Lives are literally at
stake.
Every single one of my former CIA colleagues, from my fellow
covert officers to analysts to technical operations officers to even
the secretaries, understand the vulnerabilities of our officers and
recognize that the travesty of what happened to me could happen
to them. We in the CIA always know that we might be exposed and
threatened by foreign enemies. It was a terrible irony that administration officials were the ones who destroyed my cover. Furthermore, testimony in the criminal trial of Vice President Cheneys
former chief of staff, who has now been convicted of serious crimes,
indicates that my exposure arose from purely political motives.
Within the CIA it is essential that all intelligence be evaluated
on the basis of its merits and actual credibility. National security
depends upon it. The trade craft of intelligence is not a product of
speculation. I feel passionately as an intelligence professional about
the creeping insidious politicizing of our intelligence process. All intelligence professionals are dedicated to the idea that they would
rather be fired on the spot than distort the facts to fit a political
view, any political view or any ideology.
As our intelligence agencies go through reorganizations and experience the painful aspects of change and our country faces profound
challenges, injecting partisanship or ideology into the equation
makes effective and accurate intelligence that much more difficult
to develop. Politics and ideology must be stripped completely from
our intelligence services or the consequences will be even more severe than they have been and our country placed in even greater
danger.
It is imperative for any President to be able to make decisions
based on intelligence that is unbiased. The Libby trial and the
events leading to the Iraq War highlight the urgent need to restore
the highest professional standards of intelligence collection and
analysis and the protection of our officers and operations.
The Congress has a constitutional duty to defend our national security and that includes safeguarding our intelligence. That is why

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19
I am grateful for this opportunity to appear before this committee
today and to assist in its important work.
Thank you. And I welcome any questions.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Wilson. Well
now proceed with 10 minutes on each side managed by the Chair
and the ranking member of the committee. For our first round, I
want to yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr.
Yarmuth, to begin the questioning.
Mr. YARMUTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for being
here today, Mrs. Wilson. Our country owes you a great debt of gratitude for your service, and I think you are continuing that service
today by appearing.
I would like to start by asking you about July 14, 2003, the day
that Robert Novak wrote the column in the Chicago Sun Times,
identifying you as an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction.
But before I get to that, I want to ask you about the day before,
July 13. My understanding is that on that date, you were covert.
Is that correct? On July 13?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I was a covert officer, correct.
Mr. YARMUTH. Without destroyingor disclosing classified information, what does covert mean?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Im not a lawyer. But my understanding is
that the CIA is taking affirmative steps to ensure that there are
no links between the operations officer and the Central Intelligence
Agency. I mean, that is simple.
Mr. YARMUTH. And as you said and my understanding is that
your work was classified for purposes of many regulations in the
laws, and were talking about your work was classified on that day,
July 13.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thats correct.
Mr. YARMUTH. Did the July 14 column destroy your covert position and your classified status?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, it did. I could no longer perform the
work for which I had been highly trained. I could no longer travel
overseas or do the work for whichmy career which I loved. It was
done.
Mr. YARMUTH. And this may be a simplistic question, but the information that was disclosed in Robert Novaks column, is it correct
to say that is information that you would not have disclosed yourself?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That is correct.
Mr. YARMUTH. How did you react when you learned that your
identity had been disclosed?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I found out very early in the morning when
my husband came in and dropped the newspaper on the bed and
said, He did it. And I quickly turned and read the article, and
I felt like I had been hit in the gut. It was over in an instant, and
I immediately thought of my familys safety, the agents and networks that I had worked with, and everything goes through your
mind in an instant.
Mr. YARMUTH. What effect did the leak have on you professionally?

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Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Professionally? Well, I could no longer do
the work which I had been trained to do. There wasafter that,
there is no way that you can serve overseas in a covert capacity.
And so that career path was terminated.
Mr. YARMUTH. Did the leak make you feel that your entire career
had been thrown out the window essentially, it had been wasted
at all?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Not wasted, but certainly terminated prematurely.
Mr. YARMUTH. You talked a little bit about your concern about
the effect of the leak on your professional contacts. Did you have
any contact with those people who werentexpressed their concern about the effect on their professional career?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, I did not. But I do know the Agency
did a damage assessment. They did not share it with me. But I
know that it certainly puts the people and the contacts I had all
in jeopardy, even if they were completely innocent in nature.
Mr. YARMUTH. And what effect do you think it had at the broadest level? Im talking about for future CIA employees and future
sources.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I think it wasit had a very negative effect. If our government cannot even protect my identity, future foreign agents who might consider working with the Central Intelligence Agency and providing needed intelligence would think
twice. Well, they cant even protect one of their own. How are they
going to protect me? As well as the Agency is working very hard
to attract highly talented young people into its ranks, because we
do have profound challenges facing our country today. And I cant
think that helped those efforts.
Mr. YARMUTH. I cant see the clock, Mr. Chairman. I dont know
whether my time has expired or not.
Chairman WAXMAN. You have 9 seconds.
Mr. YARMUTH. Well, I will yield back the balance of my seconds
to you, Chairman. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Wilson.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you Mr. Yarmuth.
The Chair would now like to yield time to Mr. Hodes, the gentleman from New Hampshire.
Mr. HODES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Wilson, thank you
for coming today. What happened to you is deadly serious. You
were the victim of a national security breach. If this was a law enforcement context, something I am familiar with, it would be equivalent to disclosing the identity of an undercover police officer who
has put his life on the line and the lives of all those who helped
that officer.
Our job on this committee is to find out how the breach happened. Now, I would like to show you a chart that we prepared on
the committee. You will see it up on the screens, and were putting
it up here on paper. That chart is a graphic depiction of all the
ways that your classified CIA employment was disclosed to White
House officials and then to the press. Every colored block on that
chart is an individual, and every arrow shows a disclosure of classified information. That classified information was your CIA employment status. And the arrows are based on the testimony in Mr.

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Libbys criminal case and press reports. This chart shows over 20
different disclosures about your employment.
Let me ask you, looking at this chart, are you surprised that so
many people had access to the classified information about your
CIA employment?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I am, Congressman. And I am also
surprised at how carelessly they used it.
Mr. HODES. What was your expectation about how the government would handle the classified information about your work and
status?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. My expectation, Congressman, was that
as of all CIA operations officers, every officer serving undercover,
that senior government officials would protect our identity. We all
take oaths to protect classified information and national security.
So
Mr. HODES. Prior to the time that you learned that your status
had been disclosed, you never authorized anyone to disclose your
status, did you?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely not.
Mr. HODES. And no one ever approached you and asked for permission to disclose any classified information about you?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Mr. HODES. Vice President Cheney never approached you and
asked if he had your permission to disclose your status, did he?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Mr. HODES. Karl Rove never approached you and asked whether
he had your permission to disclose your status, did he?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Mr. HODES. Now, this isnt even a complete picture because as
you can see on this chart, we dont know, for example, who told
Karl Rove your status. There is a black box up there, and it says
unknown. And there are two arrows from that. One pointing to
Vice President Cheney and one pointing to Karl Rove. So that is
an unanswered question right now.
Now, I can imagine that you have followed the proceedings and
the press pretty closely over the past few years, have you not?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes.
Mr. HODES. Do you have any theories about who told Karl Rove
about your status?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, I do not. There was much evidence introduced in the Libby trial that provides quite a bit, but I have
noit would just be guesses.
Mr. HODES. Well, that is what this committees investigation is
all about, following all the links in the chain from their sources to
their destination. Now, it has been reported that Mr. Rove had a
discussion with Chris Matthews about you, and the report was that
Mr. Rove told Mr. Matthews, Valerie Plame is fair game. Do you
recall that?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I do.
Mr. HODES. Id like to ask you to forget for a moment that he
was talking about you. Imagine that he was talking about another
undercover agent working on sensitive issues, and that undercover
agent, that undercover agents life was on the line. Do you have a
reaction to that?

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Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely. This happened to me, but I
would like to think I would feel just as passionately if it had happened to any of my former colleagues at the CIA.
Mr. HODES. One final question. Is there any circumstance that
you can think of that would justify leaking the name of an undercover agent?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, Congressman.
Mr. HODES. Thank you very much. I yield back.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hodes.
Before we yield our time, we have a long list of people that seem
to have either intentionally or advertently passed on your status
and your name as a CIA agent, and that included the President,
Vice President, Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, Ari Fleisher, just to name
a few.
Did any of those people, the President, the Vice President, Karl
Rove, Scooter Libby, Ari Fleisher, did any of them ever call you and
apologize to you?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. None of them ever called you to express regrets?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you. Mr. Davis.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Plame.
Its clear that administration officials knew you worked for the
CIA, but did they know that your status was that of a covert
agent?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I have no way of knowing, but I can say
I worked for the Counterproliferation Division of the Directorate of
Operations. And while not all, many of the employees of that division are, in fact, in covert status.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. But you dont haveI think one of the
issues here was not that you worked for the CIA, because that was
obviously widely known in the administration, but for the crime to
have been committed, they had to have known you were covert,
and you dont have any direct linkage that they knew you were covert at that point.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Again, Congressman. I am not a lawyer,
but as I said
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. You dont have any direct knowledge.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No. But as I said in my opening comments,
the fact that they knew that I worked for the CIA, that alone
should have increased their level of diligence.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Look, we all agree that everybody needs
to protect national security and protect the identities of undercover
and covert agents. But should the CIA have done more to adequately protect people as well and say these covert agents shouldnt
be outed? Did the CIA have a responsibility here as well?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I think that Congress might think about reviewing the Intelligence Identities Protection Act and seeing what
went wrong and where it needs to be perhaps rewritten.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I mean,look, the CIA is supposed to report to Congress each year on the steps taken to protect this highly
sensitive information. And I am told few, if any, reports are even
filed. So I think there is a responsibility from the CIA, and I think

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what is missing and I think fromat least from a criminal perspective, not from a policy but from a criminal perspective, that the
special prosecutor in this case looked at that and found that the
people who may have been saying this didnt know that you were
covert, and you didnt have any evidence to the contrary?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That, I think, is a question better put to
the special prosecutor, Congressman.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Shouldnt the CIA have made sure that
anyone who knew your name and your work be told of your status?
Would that have been helpful in this case? That would have made
it very clear if anyone leaked it at that point they were violating
the law at least.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. The CIA does go to great lengths to create
and protect all kinds of covers for its officers. There is a lot of
money and a lot of time and a lot of energy that goes into that.
And the onus alsothe burden falls on the officer himself or herself to live that cover, but it is not a perfect world.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. The Intelligence Identities Protection Act
makes it a crime to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert
agent, which has a specific definition under the act. Did anyone
ever tell you that you were so designated?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Im not a lawyer.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thats why I asked if they told you. Im
not asking for your interpretation.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No. But I was covert. I did travel overseas
on secret missions within the last 5 years.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Im not arguing with that. What I am
asking is, for purposes of the actand maybe this just never occurred to you or anybody else at the time, but did anybody say that
you were so designated under the act, or was this just after it came
to fact?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No. No one told me that.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. How about after the disclosure? After the
disclosure did anyone then say, gee, you were designated under the
act. This should not have happened. Did anyone in the CIA tell you
at that point?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. Since the disclosure of your identity,
have you been offered other positions within the CIA?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes. I went on to other jobs with commensurate responsibility.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. No demotion or anything? You didnt experience any demotion?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Did anyone at the CIA tell you your career path was damaged by the disclosure?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Now, you were a senior manager, a GS
14, step 6, eligible for a GS15 at the time. Did anyone ever tell
you that you could not advance in a normal career path after this
exposure?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. It was very clear that I could not advance
as a covert operations officer.

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Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. And would that thenyour upward career path in terms of getting a GS15 then was impaired in your
opinion?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No. But that was the career for which I had
been trained, for which I wanted to do. My husband and I, after
our children were born, discussed going overseas again when they
were a little bit older, and all of that came to an abrupt end, obviously.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Do you know if any of the CIA colleagueslike Robert Grimere who testified at the Libby trial, that
he told administration officials that you were involved in sending
your husband to Nigerdo you know if he ever told any of these
officials that you were involved?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I have no idea other than what he testified.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. When you introduced yourself and
your husband to the group of IC analysts at the February 19, 2002
meeting at CIA headquarters, did you tell anybody present then
you were undercover?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, I did not. I was in CIA headquarters.
I introduced them and left the meeting, Congressman.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. Would they have known that you
werewould they have had any reason to have known you were
undercover or
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I believe that they would have assumed
such.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Were limited in what we can ask. So
were trying to stay in the confines that the CIA has
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I understand.
Let me just ask, try to put some of the speculation to rest and
give you an opportunity to answer. In January 2004, Vanity Fair
published an article, not always known for great accuracy, touching
on your role in the Niger uranium affair. It saidthis is what they
said: In early May, Wilson and Plame attended a conference sponsored by the Senate Democratic Policy Committee at which Wilson
spoke about Iraqone of the other panelists was New York Times
journalist Nicholas Kristofover breakfast the next morning. It
was Kristof and his wife Wilson told about his trip to Niger and
said Kristof could write about it but not name him. Is that account
accurate?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I think it is. I had nothingI was not
speaking to Mr. Kristof, and I think my husband did say that he
had undertaken this trip but not to be named as a source.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. Just to be clear, the article says that
your husband met for breakfast with Kristof and his wife. Just to
be clear, were you at the breakfast?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Briefly. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. On June 13, Kristof wrote a column
about the Niger uranium matter. He wrote that he was piecing the
story from two people directly involved and two others who were
briefed on it. Do you know if you were one of those people that he
was referring to?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I cant imagine that I would be. I did not
speak to him about it.

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Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. What about your husband? Would
he have been one of the sources?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I think he was speaking to Mr. Kristof at
that point.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. OK. Was any of that information classified to your knowledge?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I yield back at this point.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. Cummings for 5 minutes.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much.
Mrs. Wilson, first of all, let me thank you for your service. Mrs.
Wilson, even today your work for the CIA is so highly classified
that were not permitted to discuss the details. But we can clarify
one crucial point, whether you worked under cover for the CIA. You
said that your position was covert, but I have heard others say that
you were not covert. In fact, one of the witnesses who will testify
a little bit later, Victoria Toensing, is making that same argument.
In an op-ed that appeared in the Washington Post on February
18, she says it quite bluntly, she says, Plame was not covert. She
worked at CIA headquarters and had not been stationed abroad
within 5 years. I know there are restrictions on what you can say
today, but is Ms. Toensings statement correct?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, thank you for the opportunity. I know I am here under oath, and I am here to say that
I was a covert officer of the Central Intelligence Agency. Just like
a general is a general whether he is in the field in Iraq or Afghanistan, when he comes back to the Pentagon, he is still a general. In
the same way, covert operations officers who are serving in the
field, when they rotate back for a temporary assignment in Washington, they too are still covert.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Is it possible that Ms. Toensing had more information than you do about your work or had access to secret documents that you dont?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I would find that highly unlikely, Congressman, because much of that information about my career is still
classified.
Mr. CUMMINGS. On Wednesday night, I know Mr. Waxman, our
Chair, and Congressman Reyes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, spoke personally with General Hayden, the
head of the CIA. And Chairman Waxman told me that General
Hayden said clearly and directly, Mrs. Wilson was covert. There
was no doubt about it.
And by the way, the CIA has authorized us to be able to say
that. In addition, I understand that Chairman Waxman sent his
opening statement over to the CIA to be cleared and to make sure
that it was accurate. In it he said, Mrs. Wilson was a covert employee of the CIA. Mrs. Wilson was under cover.
The CIA cleared these statements. I emphasize all of this because I know that there are people who are still trying to suggest
that what seems absolutely clear isnt really true and that you
werent covert. And I think one of the things we need to do in this
hearing is make sure there isnt any ambiguity on this point.

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Just three more questions. Did you hold this covert status at the
time of the leak, did you? The covert status at the time of the leak?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I did, Congressman. Yes.
Mr. CUMMINGS. No. 2, the Identities Protection Act refers to travel outside the United States within the last 5 years. Let me ask
you this question. Again, we dont want classified information,
dates, locations or any other details. During the past 5 years, Ms.
Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I did, Congressman.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Finally, so as to be clear for the record, you were
a covert CIA employee and within the past 5 years from today, you
went on secret missions outside the United States; is that correct?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That is correct, Congressman.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I want to thank you, and I hope this committee
now has cleared up the issue of covert, whether Ms. Plame was a
covert agent. And I yield back.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much Mr. Cummings. Mr.
Westmoreland.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am glad
Mr. Cummings asked those questions because I was going to ask
them, too.
Mrs. Wilson, I want to thank you for your service to our country.
If I seem a little nervous, I have never questioned a spy before, and
so
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I have never testified before.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Im sorry?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I have never testified under oath before.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. And I was here during the steroid hearings
too, and I dont think any of those baseball stars got this kind of
media attention that you are getting today.
But when the chairman had his opening statements, he used
three different terms: covert, undercover and classified. Were you
one of those in particular? Or all of them? Or three different terms
to categorize, I guess, your service to the country?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. For those of us that were undercover in the
CIA, we tended to use covert or undercover interchangeably. I am
notwe typically would not say of ourselves we were in a classified
position. You are kind of undercover or covert employee.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Now, did you just discuss this among yourself if you were classified or covert? Because I am assuming that
you couldnt discuss it with anybody outside the Agency. So was it
kind of like yall sat around the break room and said, I am covert
or I am classified? Or if I was going to tell somebody, what I would
tell somebody?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes. Within your colleagues, either within
the field or at headquarters here in Washington, if you were working on a project, sometimes you did need to know, are you under
cover or are you overt? Let me know. And then you know how to
treat them accordingly in the sense of how careful to be and your
association and so forth.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Right. So your fellow CIA employees would
have known that you were covert or classified or whatever.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

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Mr. WESTMORELAND. Did you ever tell anyone that you worked
for the CIA or was that commonly known that you worked for the
CIA or did you tell them that you were something else?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, Congressman. I could count on one
hand the number of people who knew where my true employer was
the day that I wasmy name was and true affiliation was exposed
in July 2003.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. OK. And Im assuming one of those was
your husband.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thatsyes, he did know.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Did he know if you were covert or classified
or
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. He did understand. As a former Ambassador and having held security clearances and worked with many
Agency employees, he understood that world to a certain point, and
he certainly understood that I was undercover, and he protected
that diligently.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. OK. And this is the one lastare we going
to have another round of questions, Mr. Waxman, do you think?
Or
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, we do have other panels. I guess if
Members wish them.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. I mean, Im just trying
Chairman WAXMAN. You have a minute and 48 seconds.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. OK. Ms. Plame, on October 5, 2003, being
interviewed on Meet the Press, your husband stated that my wife
will not allow herself to be photographed. In response to the picture you took for Vanity Fair, your husband was quoted in the
Washington Post, the picture should not be able to identify her and
are not supposed to. She is still employed by the CIA and has obligations to her employer. So I guess this was after the incident
where everybody knew that you worked for the CIA, that this was
done?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congressman. At the time that picture
came out, my covert status was long gone. And I will say this: Having lived most of my life very much under the radar, my learning
curve was steep, and it was more trouble than it was worth.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. But when the photograph was actually
taken in Vanity Fair, nobody that was notthat was not public
knowledge? I mean, all of this was not out then?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Oh, Congressman, the picture came out in
late 2003. My covert status was blown.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. OK. If your status was either covert or classified and if you did, in fact, meet with the Senate Democratic Policy Committee, Mr. Kristof, did you view as part of your covert or
classified work to meet with political groups and a columnist from
The New York Times to discuss matters within your purview at the
CIA? And, you know, I dont know if you saw the list of things that
we could or could not ask you. Did this Democratic Policy Committee and the columnist from the New York Times have these same
rules that they could or could not ask you? Or did you volunteer
other information?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, I attended that conference
simply as a spouse of my husband, who was invited to speak. He

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had been invited to speak because he had quite a bit of experience
on Iraq, having served the first President Bush as the Charg
DAffairs at our Embassy in Baghdad during the first Gulf war and
negotiated the release of the hostages with Saddam Hussein and
so forth. And he was asked to attend in that capacity. I had no discussions other than purely social in nature.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Westmoreland. Your time
has expired. Mr. Kucinich.
Mr. KUCINICH. Thank you very much, Mrs. Wilson, and thank
you for your service to our country. Briefly, I want to pick up on
my colleague Mr. Hodess question. When you look at this chart
and you see the extraordinary efforts that were made to disclose
your identity, and most of this information came out of the Libby
trial, what were you thinking when you saw the effort? This wasnt
just a leak, was it, in your estimationwas this simply just a leak
of an ID?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Quite a bit of evidence came out in the
course of the Libby trial, and I really was deeply dismayed because
it just showed a recklessness and a political path that is very, very
unfortunate.
Mr. KUCINICH. In your judgment, when you look at the chart,
does it show a fairly organized approach to disclose your identity?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Well, it certainly is wide-reaching.
Mr. KUCINICH. Because, Mr. Chairman, you know, do leaks occur
of agents identities? It does happen?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Im sorry, Congressman?
Mr. KUCINICH. Have there been in the past leaks of an agents
identity?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. None that I am aware of by their very own
government.
Mr. KUCINICH. And you have never in your experience as an
agent seen this kind of a coordinated effort by ones own government, in this case our government, to disclose the identity of an
agent?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, Congressman. I am not aware of any.
Mr. KUCINICH. To what extent does the agency go to to protect
the identities of its agents?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Significant effort. And, again, taxpayers
money, particularly in this day and age of Google and Internet. The
efforts have to be even more vigilant and ever more creative, because it is extremely easy to find out a lot of information about
someone if you really want to. So we are constantthe CIA constantly needs to be one step ahead to protect their operations officers.
Mr. KUCINICH. So when there is an extraordinary effort made to
disclose the identity of an agent, it is destructive of the Agency and
it is destructive of the taxpayers investment in the Central Intelligence Agency; is that correct?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely.
Mr. KUCINICH. And one of the things that keeps running through
my mind is why, why did this happen to you? Was it an unintentional mistake or is it part of a larger pattern? In recent weeks
weve learned that U.S. attorneys in all parts of the country were
fired despite exemplary service, and several of these attorneys tes-

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tified to Congress that they were being pressured to pursue cases
against Democratic officials. Others believe that they were fired because they were pursuing cases against Republican officials. Have
you followed this issue?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I have, Congressman.
Mr. KUCINICH. And when I think of whats happened to these attorneys, I cant help but think of your case, because these could be
isolated instances, but they seem to be part of a larger pattern. Do
you know what happened, for example, with the former Treasury
Secretary, Mr. ONeill, when he wrote his book The Price of Loyalty?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I am aware of that.
Mr. KUCINICH. And then after Secretary ONeill wrote that the
Bush administration was planning to overthrow Saddam Hussein
in a much earlier timeframe than anyone knew, Secretary ONeill
was falsely accused of leaking classified information. Did you know
that Secretary ONeill was investigated by the Treasury Department for a groundless accusation?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I believe I have read that. Yes, sir.
Mr. KUCINICH. Now another instance, General Shinseki warned
that the United States would need several hundred thousand
troops in Iraq. Ms. Wilson, do you remember what happened to
General Shinseki?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I do, Congressman. He was dismissed.
Mr. KUCINICH. I will also remind you of the case of Richard Foster, the governments chief Medicare actuary. He was actually told
he would be fired if he told Congress the truth about how much
the administrations proposed drug benefit would cost. Were you
aware of that, Ms. Wilson?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I was.
Mr. KUCINICH. Now, again, these could all be isolated instances,
but they seem to be part of a larger pattern. And I am struck by
what your husband, Joe Wilson, was quoted as saying in the book
Hubris.
Now according to the book, Joe Wilson was upset and said he regarded the leak as a warning to others. Stories like this are not
intended to intimidate me, since I have already told my story. But
it is pretty clearly intended to intimidate others who might come
forward. You need only look at the stories of intelligence analysts
who say theyve been pressured. They may have kids in college who
may be vulnerable to these types of smears. Is this what you think
was going on here?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. When you look atand I can speak only to
the realm of intelligence, and you have the politicizing of that. Certainly Vice President Cheneys unprecedented number of visits to
CIA headquarters in the run-up to the war might be one example.
Mr. KUCINICH. Thats exactly the point. What happens when
someone is working at the Agency level that people are working at
when the Vice President visits, the Vice President of the United
States comes over and starts looking over their shoulder. Is that
intimidating?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, it is.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Kucinich, your time has expired.
Mr. KUCINICH. Thank you very much.

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Chairman WAXMAN. Ms. Watson.
Ms. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for this hearing. It shows our determination to bring out into the open the malfeasance in office. I am an ambassador. I have gone through the
training. I have been blindfolded, put on a C130, taken to a site,
taken into a room with my colleagues, just like Galactica 3,000,
handed a red folder highly classified with a general standing over
my shoulder, Read it and give it back to me. Any information
that came out of that folder and was made public had to come from
two sources, the general or myself. I was the only woman in the
room.
The men, if their wives asked them said, I could tell you but I
would have to kill you. So I am very sensitive to how it works. And
I am furious that your classified information was exposed. And
Robert Novak of all people.
Now, I am going to ask you some questions. They might appear
repetitive. But you are sworn, and I want this for the record. Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald found that at the time of Robert
Novaks July 14, 2003 column, your employment status was classified and that your affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the Intelligence Community. The CIA has confirmed
to this committee that at the time of Mr. Novaks article, your employment status was covert and that information was classified.
But some people are still trying to minimize your service by suggesting you really werent at risk and that your position was not
classified because you worked at a desk job at the CIA headquarters at Langley, Virginia.
Let me give you an actual example.
Representative Roy Blunt said on the television program Face
the Nation, you know, this was a job that the Ambassadors wife
had that she went to every day. It was a desk job. I think many
people in Washington understood that her employment was at the
CIA and she went to that office every day.
Mrs. Wilson, is it fair to say that based on your service for our
government, you are well versed in the rules governing the handling of classified information?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely, Congresswoman. And I would
like to just add that when operations officers, when they are posted
in the field or back at headquarters, we are given training to understandsurveillance detection training so that we understand
very carefully that we are not being followed and that we feel very
comfortable that our status can be protected.
Ms. WATSON. That is the reason why I started off with my own
scenario.
Is it your understanding that the Executive order governing the
safeguarding of classified information prohibits the disclosure of
classified information to persons who are not authorized to receive
this information?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes. Correct.
Ms. WATSON. Yes is the answer?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congresswoman.
Ms. WATSON. And is it your understanding that when an employee at the CIA is undercover, that individuals employment status at the CIA is considered classified information?

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Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, it is.
Ms. WATSON. Are you aware of any desk job exception to the
rules prohibiting the release ofrelease on information on the employment status of a CIA employee?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No, Congresswoman.
Ms. WATSON. So I think your testimony underscores the efforts
to minimize the significance of the disclosure of your employment
status or, in effect, minimizing the importance of the classified information, rules designed to protect our national security. And I am
infuriated to continue to hear, She just had a desk job, because
I understand, I have been there, I have had the training, and I
want to thank you sincerely for the work that you have done in regards to the protection of Homeland Security and showing the love
for this country.
Thank you very much.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thank you, Congresswoman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Ms. Watson.
Mr. Lynch.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you. First of all, I want to thank you, Ms.
Plame, for coming before this committee and helping us with our
work, and for your service to our country. I have to say this hearing has been a long time in coming. The chairman and I and the
members of this committee have signed five or six requests over
the last 4 years to try to get you before us and to get to the bottom
of this.
What has happened to you needs to be taken in a wider context,
however. The two issues, two of the major issues here are, one, the
process by which Congress receives information relative to national
security. And as you know, your outing, if you will, or the disclosure of your covert status was, I think, a deliberate attempt to discount the statements of your husband with respect to the supposed
attempts by Saddam Hussein to purchase uranium or plutonium
through Niger. And, evidently from this chart, there were 20 occasions in which people deliberately, I think, attempted to destroy
your credibility and also to destroy your effectiveness within the organization, within the CIA.
And I know you have been very careful with your words. Once
or twice might be a careless disclosure. Five or six times might be
reckless, but 20 timesI will say it, 20 times is a deliberate attempt to destroy your status as a covert agent.
And the only other major case in which we have had the outing
of CIA agents, such as the Supreme Court in Haig v. Agee, said It
is obvious and inarguable that no governmental interest is more
compelling than the security of the Nation.
And going to those couple of issues, first of all, the integrity of
the process by which we get our information was affected greatly,
I think, in the terms of other agents may have been very disheartened and troubled by what happened to you. And in an effort to
discount your husbands credibility, the question was raised, and it
has been continually raised, of whether you were involved in the
decision by the CIA to actually send your husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, to Niger in February 2002 to obtain information on
the allegations that Iraq sought uranium from Nigerthey sort of
said, Oh, her. His wife sent him, like my wife sends me out to

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put out the trash, you knowtried to discount the import of that.
At least I admit it.
Now I want to ask you, the suggestion that you were involved
in sending your husband seemed to drive the leaks in an effort to
discount his credibility. I want to ask you now under oath, did you
make the decision to send Ambassador Wilson to Niger?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. No. I did not recommend him. I did not
suggest him. There was no nepotism involved. I didnt have the authority. And, Congressman, if you will allow me briefly to just lay
out the sequence of events.
Mr. LYNCH. That was my next question, if you would. I sort of
doubted this. If I was going to send my wife somewhere, it wouldnt
be Niger. Butnobody goes to Niger.
But, please, if you could lay out, walk us through everything you
did that may have been related around the time of the decision to
send Ambassador Wilson to Niger.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thank you, Congressman. I am delighted
as well that I am under oath as I reply to you.
In February 2002, a young junior officer who worked for me came
to me very concerned, very upset. She had just received a telephone
call on her desk from someone, I dont know who, in the Office of
the Vice President, asking about this report of this alleged sale of
yellow cake uranium from Niger to Iraq.
She came to me, and as she was telling me this, what had just
happened, someone passed by. Another officer heard this. He knew
that Joe had alreadymy husband had already gone on some CIA
missions previously to deal with other nuclear matters. And he
suggested well, why dont we send Joe?
He knew that Joe had many years of experience on the African
continent. He also knew that he had served, and served well and
heroically, in the Baghdad Embassy, the Embassy in Baghdad during the first Gulf war.
And I will be honest, I was somewhat ambivalent. At the time,
we had 2-year-old twins at home, and all I could envision was me
by myself at bedtime with a couple of 2-year-olds. So I wasntI
wasnt overjoyed with this idea.
Nevertheless, we went to my branch chief, our supervisor. My
colleague suggested this idea, and my supervisor turned to me and
said, Well, when you go home this evening, would you be willing
to speak to your husband, ask him to come in to headquarters next
week and we will discuss the options? See if thiswhat we could
do. Of course. And as I was leaving, he asked me to draft a quick
e-mail to the chief of our Counterproliferation Division letting him
know that this wasmight happen. I said, Of course.
And it was that e-mail, Congressman, that was taken out of context, a portion of which you see in the Senate Select Committee on
Intelligence report of July 2004 that makes it seem as though I had
suggested or recommended him.
Mr. LYNCH. If I could followup becausejust 30 seconds.
Chairman WAXMAN. Without objection.
Mr. LYNCH. And I want to go back to that Senate Intelligence
Committee hearing.
There were three Republican Senators who included a more definitive statement, it said, The plan to send the former Ambas-

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sador to Niger was suggested by the former Ambassadors wife, a
CIA employee.
What is your reaction to that statement in the Senate report
about the genesis of your husbands trip to Niger in 2002?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, it is incorrect. It has been
borne out in the testimony during the Libby trial. And I can tell
you that it just doesnt square with the facts. Those additional
views were written exclusively by three Republican Senators.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Lynch.
Mr. Yarmuth.
Mr. YARMUTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to yield my
time to Mr. Van Hollen.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Van Hollen is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you very much, Mr. Yarmuth and Mr.
Chairman.
Ms. Plame, thank you for your service to our country and your
testimony here today.
Just to remind us all of the larger context in which this happened and the lead-up to the war, we remember many statements
from the President of the United States, the Vice President of the
United States, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, others, about
mushroom clouds and invoking the image that Saddam Hussein
was going to be obtaining nuclear weapons and using them in terrorist attacks.
So when Ambassador Wilson wrote his article in the New York
Times that began with this statement, Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Husseins weapons program to justify invasion of Iraq, and answered that question in the
following sentence, Based on my experience with the administration, in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but
to conclude some of the intelligence relating to Iraqs nuclear intelligence program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat. That
posed a direct threat to the administrations credibility. And clearly they understood the danger of that because it undercut one of
the main underpinnings and justifications the administration gave
for the war.
And we see from the chart here that the White House did spring
into action and begin to try and discredit your husband, and that
is how you were drawn into this web.
Mr. McClellan, then-White House spokesman, said, On behalf of
the administration, on behalf of the President, if any one in this
administration was involved in it, meaning the leaks and the dissemination of information, they would no longer be in this administration.
Do you believe there continue to be people, individuals in this administration, who were involved in leaking information about you?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congressman. As we know, again,
from the evidence that was introduced at the trial of the Vice
Presidents former chief of staff, for one, Karl Rove clearly was involved in the leaking of my name, and he still carries a security
clearance to this date, despite the Presidents words to the contrary
that he would immediately dismiss anyone who had anything to do
with this.

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Mr. VAN HOLLEN. And the CIA spokesman made a statement,
and other intelligence officers have made the statements that we
have today, that the failure to hold people accountable for leaking
this kind of information sends a very terrible message to others in
the intelligence field.
Do you think the failure of the President to fire the people in his
administration who were involved with this message sends a
chilling message to those in the intelligence agencies, that the
White House is not willing to stand up behind those people who are
putting their lives at danger every day?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes. I believe it undermines the Presidents
words.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Let me ask you this. And I would just say on
the record, with the statements that were made at trial with respect to Karl Roves involvement, I would just state the testimony
given by Mr. Cooper of Time Magazine, who said that he was told
by Karl Rove, Dont go too far out on Wilson. That Mr. Wilsons
wife worked at the, Agency. And at the conclusion of the conversation, according to Mr. Cooper, Mr. Rove said, I have already
said too much.
Can you think of any reason that Mr. Rove would make that
statement if he did not know that he was engaged in wrongdoing?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, I cannotI cannot begin to
speculate on Mr. Roves intent. I just know what his words were
and the effects.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you.
Let me followup briefly on Mr. Lynchs line of questioning regarding the Senate report and who really had Ambassador Wilson
sent to Niger and who was the instigator of that.
The
unclassified
Senate
report
asserts
that
the
Counterproliferation Division report officer told the committee staff
that the former Ambassadors wife, you, offered up his name. Are
you familiar with that statement in the unclassified
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I am.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Now, we dont want to reveal, and we dont
want you to reveal any classified information or anyones identity,
but have you talked with that CPD reports officer who was interviewed by the Senate committee?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congressman. And I can tell you that
he came to me almost with tears in his eyes. He said his words had
been twisted and distorted. He wrote a memo, and he asked his supervisor to allow him to be reinterviewed by the committee. And
the memo went nowhere, and his request to be reinterviewed so
that the record could be set straight was denied.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Just so I understand, Mr. Chairman, if I could.
So there is a memo written by the CPD officer upon whose alleged testimony in the Senate report that contradicts the conclusions in that report.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely. Yes, sir.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this committee should ask for that memo. It bears directly on the credibility
of the Senate report on this very, very important issue that they
have attempted to use to discredit Ambassador Wilsons mission.

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Chairman WAXMAN. I think the gentleman makes an excellent
point, and we will insist on getting that memo.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Hodes, you are next.
Mr. HODES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I reserve my time. I yield
back.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Sarbanes.
Mr. SARBANES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Wilson, thanks for being here today. I know this cant be
easy for you.
If you put this affair in context, what has happened with you,
with all of the other abuses, frankly, Mr. Chairman, that we have
been investigating over the last 7 weeksand I thank you for the
diligence of your inquiry and fairness of your inquiry into a number
of the things that have occurredit paints a picture of an administration of bullies, in my view. The things thatin order to achieve
whatever the ends they are seeking, any means can be justified
and that people can just be pushed around.
We saw it when we had testimony of people in the White House
who bullied the scientific community by altering testimony on global warming. We have seen it in terms of the investigations you
have done, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the treatment of our
Civil Service. Now we see it in context of our Intelligence Community.
And to me what you have experienced is really the result of the
syndrome that has developed in this administration which reflects
the arrogance of power run amok.
I have just a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you in that
vein.
First of all, I gather you believe that the outing of your status,
the blowing of your covert status, was as a result of some of the
statements that your husband was making and the challenges that
he was bringing; is that right?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes. I believe that was one of the consequences.
Mr. SARBANES. OK. But at the point that they were prepared to
surrender your covert status to the public, I mean, what was to be
gained by that? I mean, can youwas it to apply further leverage?
I mean, really it was sort of after the fact at that point, right?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. My thinking, Congressman, is that by continuing to assert falsely that I somehow suggested him or recommended him for this mission, it would undercut the credibility
of what he was saying. And that isthat is what I think has happened. And it just got a little out of hand.
Mr. SARBANES. It strikes me as petulant behavior on their part.
Second, there is a suggestion being made that your status could
have been divulged sort of accidentally. But you have described efforts, structural efforts, that are designed to make sure that this
doesnt happen accidentally. And so could you comment on that?
I mean, it seems to me that in order for your status to have been
disclosed, somebody had to want that to happen. In other words,
the way things were set up, it is highly unlikely that your status
would be disclosed by accident. It had to be as a result of an orchestrated effort that somebody wanted to put it out there.

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Can you talk about sort of structurally, whether that is the case?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I cant speak to intent, but I can speak to
simply what the actions that we can observe, and that, again, they
all knew that I worked in the CIA. They might not have known
what my status was. But that alone, the fact that I worked at the
CIA, should have put up a red flag that they acted in a much more
protective way of my identity and true employer.
Mr. SARBANES. And then last, again, Im trying to getbecause
this is more thanits more than a story about Valerie Plame Wilson and what happened to you, as devastating as it has been to
your life over these last period of months. Its about our Intelligence Community. And you spoke yourself to how this kind of
conduct can affect the integrity and effectiveness of our intelligence
apparatus.
Can you comment on the chilling effect, if you will, on what the
message it sends to people, to those, for example, who would be
sent on a mission to collect intelligence about a subject that the
White House might already have a very strong opinion about. How
would it affect the way that agent, the way that person would
check that information and get that information back up the chain?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Intelligence collection is certainly more an
art than a science, but if there is any taint of bias, then it undermines its usefulness. The primary customer of our intelligence is,
of course, the President of the United States. And if the President
of the United States thinks somehowor doesnt believe that his
intelligence that he receives on his desk, he or she receives on his
desk every morning, is free of ideology, politics, a certain viewpoint,
how then can that President make the most important decisions of
all about the security of our country? I mean, that isI do feel passionately about that. You have to get the politics out of our intelligence process.
Mr. SARBANES. I appreciate that. I appreciate the passion that
you brought to your job. And you represent hundreds of thousands
of people that go to work and try to make a difference for this country and I think are being bullied by this administration. You wont
get the policy from them that you deserve. But I want you to know
that everyone here appreciates your service.
Thank you very much.
Chairman WAXMAN. We have gone back and forth, and, rather
than a second round, Mr. Davis and I have agreed that we will
have 5 minutes wrap-up on each side; 5 minutes will be controlled
by the chairman and the ranking member.
And I would yield 5 minutes to Mr. Davis at this point.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I yield to Mr. Westmoreland such time
as he would consume.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I hate it that we are not going to stay here to get
all of our questions answered by Ms. Wilson, because I have so
many to ask, because there is so many conflicting reports. And I
think that with something of this importance, that we should have
made a little more time for it.
But Ms. Wilson, the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA,
that seems like a pretty important place where a bunch of smart

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people would work and keep good records. Would thatwould I be
OK in thinking that?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. But in the Senate Intel report that I have
that says some CPD officials could not recall how the Office decided
to contact the former Ambassador, was this a voluntary lack of
memory or were there no notes kept on it? Is ithow could they
forget how they came about a name that they were fixing to send
to a foreign country to check on the intelligence of Iraq getting material to build nuclear bombs? That seems a little bit far-fetched to
me.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, please remember that in this
period in the run-up to the war, we in the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA were working flat-out as hard as we could to try
to find good, solid intelligence for our senior policymakers on these
presumed programs.
My role in this was to go home that night without revealing any
classified information, of course, and ask my husband would he be
willing to come into CIA headquarters the following week and talk
to the people there. At that meeting, I introduced him and I left,
because I did have a hundred and one other things I needed to do.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. But what Im trying to say is do you think
there would not have been a paper trail of how his name came
about, who would havewho would have mentioned it first orI
mean, to me that is a pretty important assignment to give somebody; and, you know, maybe somebody would want to say Hey,
that was my idea. That was my guy that I was sending over there,
and want to take credit for it. But it seems like everybody is running from it.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, I believe one of the pieces of
evidence that was introduced in the Libby trial was an INR memo
of that meeting where it states, in fact, my husband was not particularly looking forward tohe didnt think it was necessary.
There had been, I believe, at least two other reports, one by a
three-star general and one by the Ambassador there on the ground
who said there wasnt really much of this allegation. And the INR
folks that attended the meeting also said well, we are not sure that
this is really necessary.
But it was ultimately decided that he would go, use his contacts,
which were extensive in the government, to see if there was anything more to this. It was a serious question asked by the Office
of the Vice President and it deserved a serious answer.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. Are you familiar with a Charles Grimere
that was the former Iraq mission manager for the CIA?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I know of him, sir, yes.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. He testified in the Libby trial that all he
had heard is that you were working for this Counterproliferation
Division, and it could have been a number of things that different
people, I guess, look at this, some covert, some classified, some undercover, some different names.
Is that true that there are different classifications of people that
work at this Counterproliferation Division?

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Mrs. PLAME WILSON. What I would say thats most accurate is
most of the employees at the Counterproliferation Division are undercover of some sort.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. But he did work for the CIA so he should
have known that you were undercover or classified or
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I am saying that the fact was that most
people in the Counterproliferation Division were undercover. I cant
speak to what he should have or should have not knownwere
probably cognizant of that, yes, sir.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. And you mentioned taking politics out of intelligence. And your husbandwould you say he was a Democrat
or a Republican?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Although my husband comes from a Republican family with deep roots in California, I would say he is a Democrat now, Congressman.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. OK. And just to kind of keep score, not that
you would put yourself in any political category, would you say you
are a Democrat or a Republican?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congressman, I am not sure that is
Mr. WESTMORELAND. I know. But I gave a list of questions I
couldnt ask you, and that wasnt one of them, so I didnt know if
you would be willing to
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congressman. I am a Democrat.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. You are a Democrat.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, I am.
Mr. WESTMORELAND. So the Vice President, who is a Republican,
who evidently thought from his CIA briefing that he had gotten 1
day, felt like that this needed to be looked at further, the report
that Niger was selling this yellow cake uranium to Iraq, that he
would get some further intel on it. They called the
Counterproliferationor at least somebody in the CIAand then
we had a Democrat or at least supposedly someone who may be affiliated on the Democratic siderepresent her, or present or supposedly present or at least vouch for her husband who waswho
had come from a good Republican family that had lost his way and
became a Democrat.
But my point is, in his piece titled, What I Didnt Find in Africa, he disputes the Bush administrations claims of there was no
evidence that Niger was selling it. But you, coming from an intelligence background, you dont just depend on one report from one
country or one source to base all your intelligence on, do you?
Wouldnt you gather it from a bunch of different sources and then
kind of put it together and look at it and not just one from
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That is correct, Congressman.
Chairman WAXMAN. The gentlemans time has expired.
Do you have a last question that you want to ask?
Mr. WESTMORELAND. No.
I guess, Mr. Chairman, my last comment would be to you that
I still think it is a shame thatwe have Ms. Wilson here and all
of the press came and all of these good people came to witness all
of this, and its been quite a spectaclethat we wouldnt get to ask
all of the questions that we had.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I think what is clear here is, first of all,
it is a terrible thing that any CIA operative would be outed. But

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what is difficult, I think, what we havent been able to establish
is who knew who was undercover and who was in a covert status.
And I think we would have to look at that. But if there is no evidence here that the people that were outing this and pursuing this,
had knowledge of the covert statusAnd so I just wanted to make
that point.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thank you, Congressman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Davis.
I want to yield to Ms. Norton for 5 minutes.
Ms. NORTON. Thank you very much. And thank you, Ms. Wilson,
as others have thanked you for your extraordinary service to our
country.
I am trying to understand the effect of the Executive order, because there is an Executive order that is Executive Order 12958.
It is an Executive order, a Presidential Executive order, that indicates what authorizedwhat the requirements are to prevent unauthorized disclosures.
And in summary, they are background checks, official need to
know. I am particularly interested in the official need to know.
And I ask you to look at the middle chart, the middle part of the
chart on there where the White House and other officials, State Department officials, are listed.
Can you think of any reason that any of those officials would
have had a reason to know your identity, in particular, as a covert
agent?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Congresswoman, there was no need to
know my specific identity other than I was a CIA officer, according
to that chart. None whatsoever.
Ms. NORTON. Could I ask you whether there is any difference in
your review between disclosing the identity of a covert agent and
disclosing classified information, what if any difference would there
be?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I think damage in either case could be
equally devastating. It would simply depend on what the classified
information was. But certainly revealing an operatives true identity is devastating. In my case, I was working on trying to find the
Iraq weapons of mass destruction programs and what they were up
to.
Ms. NORTON. I suppose we could all think of classified information involving our country that would have a devastating effect on
all of us.
Disclosing the name of a classified agent might have a devastating effect on more than that agents career; is that not the case?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely, Congresswoman.
The ripple effects go outward in quite wide circles. There are all
of the contacts through the years as either innocent or in a professional manner. The agents, the networks. Much is taken out.
Ms. NORTON. Are there circumstances under which disclosing the
identity of a covert agent could result in the death of that agent,
and hasnt that occurred before in our countrys history?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, it has.
Ms. NORTON. If, in fact, an official of any kind did not have an
official reason to know your status, in your view would that be a

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violation of the Executive order which lists official need to know as
a reason for having classified information?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, Congresswoman. I would think so.
Ms. NORTON. So you think it would be.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. It would be a violation.
Ms. NORTON. One of my colleagues questioned you regarding the
accusation that over and over again was repeated in the press, and,
for that matter, by a number of public officials, that it was you who
was responsible for your husbands being selected to go on the controversial trip at issue.
As I understand it, that person has indeed said that he was not
the person who indicated that you had been responsible for the selection of your husband to go to Niger.
If that is the case, would you say that it would be inappropriate
for us or others to rely on the information that a CIA official had
said that you were responsible for the selection of your husband to
go to Niger?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That is incorrect. A senior Agency officer
said she had nothing to do with his trip. And I would just like to
add that certainly I had no political agenda at the time of my husbands trip. Joe had no political agenda. We were both looking to
serve our country.
Ms. NORTON. Mr. Chairman, I understand that the CIA official
to which I refer has in fact said that in writing, and I ask that you
try to get the memorandum of that official that would make it clear
that he or she was not responsible for this information.
Chairman WAXMAN. We will try to get that information and hold
it for the record.
Ms. NORTON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Davis.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Let me clarify one thing. You noted that
when you learned about this, your husband picked up the paper
and said, He did it. Do you remember your testimony today? He
did it. Was he referring to Novak? Was he referring to the administration? And did you know this was percolating?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Yes, sir. He was referring to Mr. Novak. We
had indications in the week prior that Mr. Novak knew my identity
and my true employer. And I, of course, alerted my superiors at the
Agency, and I was told dont worry, we will take care of it. And it
was much to our surprise that we read about this July 14th.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Do you know if your superiors at the
Agency did anything at that point to stop the outing of a CIA
agent? It would seem to me they would have picked up the phone
to say this is a serious matter, this is a crime. Do you have any
idea?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Absolutely. This is what I believe and this
is what I read, that then-spokesman Mr. Harlow spoke directly to
Mr. Novak and said something along the lines of, Dont go with
this. Dont do this. I dont know exactly what he said. But he
clearly communicated the message that Mr. Novak should not publish my name.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. And you dont know if he said this could
be a violation of law, she is a covert operator or anything like that.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. I have no idea.

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Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. One of the long-term concerns outside of
theI mean, the outing of an agent is very serious business which
I think has been underscored by both sides. But if no one knows
that youre covert, its hard at that point to show any violation of
law and the like. But if you have notice, thats a different issue.
And so you did the appropriate thing in notifying your superiors
that this was percolating, and they were not able to stop it. Is that
your testimony?
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. That is correct.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mrs. Wilson, you can be a Democrat, you
can be a Republican. No one asks our servicemen or CIA operatives
what they believe in in terms of their politics to go out and serve
their country. They are not acting as Democrats or Republicans.
They and you were acting as Americans.
Facts are not Republican or Democratic. Your husband revealed
the falsehood of the reason the President gave to go to war against
Saddam Hussein in Iraq. And the reason he gave, even in his State
of the Union address, was that the weapon of mass destruction
that Saddam Hussein had, or would soon have, is a nuclear bomb.
That was very sobering, but it was false.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Uh-huh.
Chairman WAXMAN. And when your husband wrote the article,
that went right to the heart of this claim.
So one could see why they wouldnt like what your husband
wrote. But they made you collateral damage. Your career was
ended. Your life may have been in jeopardy. And they didnt seem
to care, even to this point, because you said they havent even
called to apologize.
Now, whether they knew it and intentionally gave out this information about your status is the reason for this investigation. If
they knew it then, that you were a covert undercover agent, and
they disclosed that fact, that is a big deal. That is a serious jeopardizing of our national security.
If they didnt know you were an undercover covert agent, then
I have to wonder in my mind what was their thinking. That this
guy couldnt be right because his wife had something to do with the
mission? Boy, is that sort of silly.
Either way, I dont think it speaks well for all of those people in
the White House to have gone out of their way to let the press
know this information which was the only, I guess, the only thing
they had to say.
The President has finally acknowledged the statement that your
husband pointed out was factually incorrect. The President has acknowledged it was factually incorrect. The Secretary of State said
the CIA didnt tell her, but it turned out that her chief deputy did
get informed, Mr. Hadley, that the statement was not correct; that
they were putting it into the State of the Union address, the most
vetted speech a President ever makes. They acknowledged the validity of your husbands statement. And what do we have for you?
Well, just collateral damage.
I find that troubling that in the zeal for their political positioning, that there are a lot of collateral damage around, including a
war that didnt have to be fought.

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I want to thank you very much for your presence here. I think
it has been helpful, and we are going to continue this investigation.
Ms. WATSON. A question to the Chair.
Chairman WAXMAN. Yes.
Ms. WATSON. The first, I think, most of us knew about Valerie
Plame as being an undercover agent was through Robert Novaks
July 14, 2003 column. Is it possible, as we continue our oversight
function, to have Mr. Novak under oath come in and testify to the
fact that he did print that information?
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, I think we know that he did print that
information and that we know now she was a covert agent. I have
manyI will give it some thought. But I want to underscore that
we need an investigation. This is not about Scooter Libby, and its
not just about Valerie Plame Wilson. It is about the integrity of our
national security and whether it is being jeopardized.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I think if you do that, weyou need to
involve the CIA, because there is no evidence here that anyone out
there had any idea that she was an undercover agent, that she was
a covert agent at this point.
Chairman WAXMAN. You may well be right. But the CIA did.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. And, in fact, she did the appropriate
thing in going to her superiors when she found out that she was
about to be outed.
I would have thought at that point, if the CIA felt one of their
operatives were going to be outed, they would have gone to great
lengths to try to kill the story and let them know what the law
was.
Chairman WAXMAN. That is a very good point, and I think we
need to get
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. In the Presidents speechand I have to
say thisin the Presidents speech when he mentioned the uranium, those words were cleared by the CIA. It may not have been
in accordance with what Mr. Wilson found, but Ms. Plames boss
approved that. And I think the record should reflect that.
Chairman WAXMAN. Before I call on anybody else.
Yes, Mr. Hodes.
Mr. HODES. Just very briefly. The suggestion about what we
dont know cannot be finally determined until we pursue the investigation that we need to pursue and find out what the people on
this chart knew and when they knew it, who the unknown person
or persons are, and we need an investigation.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. We had a special prosecutor who did
this, Mr. Hodes. The special prosecutor looked at this and spent 2
years on this.
Chairman WAXMAN. This is a hearing to get information from
witnesses, not to debate, although it is inevitable. But let us, I
think, move on with our hearing.
I thank all of the Members for their participation. I wish we had
all of the Members here to participate, but all of those Members
were invited and had adequate notice, but this is a Friday.
Thank you so much for being here.
Mrs. PLAME WILSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Chairman WAXMAN. We are going to recess for 4 or 5 minutes
just so we can settle down and get the next witnesses up and take
care of whatever pressing matters that need to be attended to.
[Recess.]
Chairman WAXMAN. The committee will come back to order.
I am pleased to welcome our next two witnesses. Dr. James
Knodell is the security officer for the Executive Office of the President. According to GAO, this position is, responsible for formulating and directing the execution of security policy, reviewing and
evaluating Executive Office of the President security programs, and
conducting security indoctrinations and debriefings for agencies of
the Executive Office of the President.
Mr. Bill Leonard is the Director of the Information Security
Oversight Office at the National Archives and Records Administration. This office is charged with developing security classification
policies for classifying, declassifying, and safeguarding security information generated in government and industry, and evaluating
the effectiveness of the security classification programs developed
by government and industry.
And I want to welcome both of you to our hearing today.
Your prepared statements are going to be in the record in its entirety, and we are going to ask you to keep your oral presentation
to around 5 minutes or try to keep it under 5 minutes.
It is the practice of this committee to swear in all witnesses, so
if you will please rise.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Chairman WAXMAN. The record will indicate that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative.
Mr. Knodell, why dont we start with you?
STATEMENTS OF JAMES KNODELL, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF SECURITY, EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT, THE
WHITE HOUSE; AND WILLIAM LEONARD, DIRECTOR, INFORMATION SECURITY OVERSIGHT OFFICE, NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION
STATEMENT OF JAMES KNODELL

Mr. KNODELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My name is James Knodell. I am the Chief Security Officer for
the Office of Security and Emergency Preparedness, Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President.
The Office of Security and Emergency Preparedness is commonly
referred to as OSEP, which provides personnel security and physical security and emergency preparedness for the Executive Office
of the President and Office of the Vice President.
OSEP works closely with the U.S. Secret Service, National Security Council, and the White House Military Office as well as EOP
managers and all personnel assigned to the EOP to ensure their security measures are well coordinated and that required controls are
consistently and fully implemented.
OSEP provides a variety of services that ensure the proper protection of EOP resources including information, people, and facilities. These services include prescreening candidates for employment based on security guidelines, monitoring the background in-

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vestigation process, briefing employees on requirements and guidelines for the handling and storage of classified material.
In reference to the committees request that I provide information on White House procedures for safeguarding classified information, OSEP follows guidelines set forth in various Executive orders that deal with classified information.
For example, Executive Order 12968, Access to Classified Information, dated August 2, 1985, established a uniform Federal personnel security program for employees who will be considered for
initial or continued access to classified information.
Executive Order 12958, Classified National Security Information,
dated April 17, 1995, prescribes a uniform system for classifying,
safeguarding, and declassifying national security information.
OSEP staff members brief all new EOP employees on the responsibilities for handling and securing classified information consistent
with these Executive orders. Additionally, mandatory annual refresher security briefings are provided to those EOP employees
holding security clearances. In the event that an EOP employee
fails to follow applicable guidelines resulting in a security violation,
a member of the EOP office to which the individuals assigned
should report the matter to OSEP.
OSEP then refers the matter and it follows procedures consistent
with the guidelines in Executive Order 12968 to ensure that a determination is made to whether the person should continue to hold
a security clearance and if the incident involves a risk to classified
information controlled by an organization outside the EOP, that organization is notified.
Mr. Chairman, I am not able to discuss individual cases or investigations. I would be happy to answer questions related to the procedures for handling classified information or corresponding to the
unauthorized release of classified information.
Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Leonard.
STATEMENT OF J. WILLIAM LEONARD

Mr. LEONARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Waxman, Mr. Davis, and members of the committee,
I wish to thank you for inviting me to testify here today.
I direct the Information Security Oversight Office [ISOO]. Under
Executive Order 12958, as amended, we have substantial responsibilities with respect to the classification, safeguarding, and declassification of information by agencies within the executive
branch. Included is the responsibility to develop and promulgate a
directive implementing the order.
It is the order that sets forth the basic framework and legal authority by which executive branch agencies may classify national
security information. Pursuant to his constitutional authority and
through the order, the President has authorized a limited number
of officials to apply classification to certain national security-related information.
In delegating classification authority, the President has established clear parameters for its use and certain burdens that must
be satisfied.

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Specifically, every act of classifying information must be traceable back to its origin as an explicit decision by a responsible official who has been expressly delegated original classification authority. In addition, the original classification authority must be able
to identify or describe the damage to national security that could
reasonably be expected if the information was subject to unauthorized disclosure. Furthermore, the information must be owned by,
produced by or for, or under the control of the U.S. Government.
And, finally, it must fall into one or more of the categories of information specifically provided for in the order.
The President has also spelled out in the order some very clear
prohibitions and limitations with respect to the use of classification. Specifically, for example, in no case can information be classified in order to conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error.
It is the responsibility of officials delegated original classification
authority to establish at the time of the original decision the level
of classification as well as the duration of classification.
The order and directive go on to establish requirements for access to classified information, such as the need for a favorable access eligibility determination by an agency, as well as the execution
of an approved nondisclosure agreement.
The order and directive also promulgates minimum standards for
the safeguarding of classified information, including such issues as
storage, reproduction, transmission and destruction.
We also establish actions to be taken in the event of a loss, possible compromise, or unauthorized disclosure of classified information. This includes the prompt reporting and investigation of such
instances in order to implement appropriate corrective actions and
to ascertain the degree of damage to national security.
While I stated earlier it is the responsibility of the original classification authority to determine the duration of classification, a fundamental principle of the order is that classified information shall
be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification.
In addition, while the order presumes that information that continues to meet the standards for classification requires continued
protection, it provides for exceptional cases in which the need to
protect such information may be outweighed by the publics interest in disclosure of the information.
In such circumstances, an agency head or designated official
may, as an exercise of discretion, declassify the information.
In addition to the above, information can be declassified in one
of three ways: first, by implementing the instructions set forth in
a classification or declassification guide; second, by following a view
by an authorized official, or third, automatically, without benefit of
review.
Finally, the order establishes specific responsibility for agencies
in establishing an effective classification management program.
Again, I want to thank you for inviting me here today, Mr.
Chairman. I would be happy to answer your questions and any
questions any members the committee might have.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Leonard follows:]

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Chairman WAXMAN. The Chair will recognize himself to start off
the questions.
Mr. Knodell, you are the one charged at the White House for
safeguarding classified information; isnt that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. That is correct.
Chairman WAXMAN. And in doing so, you have an Executive
Order 12958 that implements the regulations for the protection of
this information. I want to ask you about that and, of course, we
are looking at the context of Mrs. Wilsons identity being disclosed.
Federal regulations require that any person who has knowledge
of the loss or compromise of classified information has an obligation
to report to the White House Security Officer.
I want to read to you 5CFS section 1212.30. Any White House
employee who has knowledge of the loss or possible compromise of
classified information should report the circumstances to the EOP
security officer. Is that accurate, Mr. Knodell?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, it is.
Chairman WAXMAN. And the White House officials who know
about the disclosure of classified information have an obligation to
report what they know to you.
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, sir.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Leonard, you are one of the Nations experts on protection of classified information. Do Federal officials
who learn of the possible breach of classified information have an
obligation to report it to the security officer at the White House?
Mr. LEONARD. Any individual that becomes aware of a security
violation, especially one in which may involve an unauthorized disclosure, has the obligation to promptly report that matter to the
designated official to receive that.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thats whether it was intentionally disclosed
or unintentionally disclosed?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir, thats correct.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Knodell, I want to ask you about whether the White House officials complied with this requirement after
the disclosure of Mrs. Wilsons identity. Let me start with the
former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, Mr. Fleischers
conversations with Walter Pincus of the Washington Post and
David Gregory of NBC News about Ms. Wilsons identity. These
conversations took place in July 2003. Almost immediately it was
clear that Ms. Wilsons identity was classified information.
Mr. Knodell, the regulations require Mr. Fleischer to report what
he knew about this disclosure to you. Did he do that?
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Chairman, I thought the agreement here for
me today was I would not discuss specific investigations.
Chairman WAXMAN. As I understood it, we wouldnt discuss the
Libby case. That was a concern, that we were going to rehash the
Libby case. This is the Valerie Plame Wilson case, and it is a question Congress is exploring to fine out whether our security laws
and regulations are working.
One way to find that out is to find out whether you were told
that there was a violation and the rules were upheld and followed
in the requirement and obligations to report it to you.
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Chairman, that happened before my tenure in
this current position. I began this position in August 2004.

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50
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, do youare you aware of whether the
report was made by Mr. Fleischer to your predecessor?
Mr. KNODELL. Im not, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Are you aware if theres any investigation
that ever took place in the White House about the release of this
classified information?
Mr. KNODELL. I am not.
Chairman WAXMAN. Do you know whether Carl Rove, the Presidents senior political adviser, came forward and reported what he
knew about the breach of Ms. Wilsons identity. After all, we
learned that Mr. Rove talked about her identity with at least two
journalists, a Robert Novak and Matthew Cooper of Time Magazine.
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Chairman, I have no knowledge of any investigation within my office.
Chairman WAXMAN. How long have you been in this office?
Mr. KNODELL. Since August 2004.
Chairman WAXMAN. Two and a half years. Were you aware in
the last 212 years that this was an issue for which there was a lot
of concern?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was.
Chairman WAXMAN. Did you learn that from people in the White
House?
Mr. KNODELL. Through the press.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Leonard, the regulations seem clear, it
says that officials like Mr. Rove have an obligation to report security violations.
Mr. Knodell, wouldnt there have to be a report that would have
been filed in your office?
Mr. KNODELL. If we were notified, there would be, sir, yes.
Chairman WAXMAN. So if you were notified, a report would be on
file. Is that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Chairman WAXMAN. You dont know if theres one on file. Is that
correct, you dont even know theres one on file?
Mr. KNODELL. There is not one on file.
Chairman WAXMAN. There is not one on file. You know that
there is no report on file that classified information was disclosed
and that report was about Fleischer or Rove or all the other names.
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Chairman, not within the Office of Security
and Emergency Preparedness.
Chairman WAXMAN. Mr. Leonard, just to clarify the point, isnt
there an obligation under the law to have that information filed by
the person who learns that he disclosed classified information even
inadvertently?
Mr. LEONARD. Again, Mr. Chairman, the requirement is for anyone who becomes aware of a violation, the person who may be involved in committing it or someone who is otherwise aware of it,
to promptly report that to the designated official so that an appropriate inquiry and investigation can be conducted.
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, these people may not have known at
the time they disclosed this information to the press but they certainly learned afterwards. Did they have an obligation even then
to report?

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Mr. LEONARD. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Again, the purpose of the notification is to allow for the conduct of an investigation or an inquiry
in order to at the very least determine what the causes were so as
to provide for corrective action to assess the possibility of damage
to national security.
Chairman WAXMAN. Last question to Mr. Knodell. Was there any
corrective action taken, was any disciplinary action taken against
Mr. Rove for failing to report his knowledge of the breach of Mrs.
Wilsons identity?
Mr. KNODELL. No, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. No, no action was taken, or no, you dont
know?
Mr. KNODELL. No action was taken.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you. Mr. Davis.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Mr. Knodell, you just found out you were
coming here yesterday, is that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. Actually had word of it earlier in the week but
found out definitively yesterday, yes, sir.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Generally committee rules about advance
notice and consultation to protect both the majority and minority
rights, we get notice of these, and requires that Members be informed in writing of witnesses and the likely scope of their testimony 3 days prior to a hearing.
We were informed only yesterday of the addition of two witnesses
to todays, which doesnt generally allow us the time to prepare
that we would ordinarily like.
Do you know, was the possibility of a subpoena discussed with
you or with Mr. Fielding in terms of your coming here today?
Mr. KNODELL. I understand that there was talk of a subpoena.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Just for the record, the minority was not
consulted on that at all.
Chairman WAXMAN. Would the gentleman yield? As I understand
it, Mr. Knodell was expected to come here and that information
was out there a week prior to today and it was shared with the minority staff. We found out yesterday that Mr. Knodell was not
going to be permitted to testify. I called the White House Counsel
and suggested that we might have to issue a subpoena unless Mr.
Knodell was made available. I was told the subpoena would not be
necessary. Mr. Knodell is here.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. My understanding was that the invitation had come but we werent notified until yesterday he would appear.
Let me just start. When an agency creates classified material,
lets say the CIA, and then shares it with another agency, what obligations and responsibilities does the originator have to convey the
classification status to the recipient?
Mr. KNODELL. If its a document, it will be clearly marked on
that document.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. How about an individual?
Mr. KNODELL. They should be told that its classified material
thats being passed.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. To your knowledge there was no knowledge at the White House of Mrs. Plames covert status. Or can you
not comment on that?

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Mr. KNODELL. I cant comment, I dont have any knowledge of it.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Mr. Leonard, let me just ask this, does
the burden generally fall on the agency that has the classification
or that would have an employee in a covert status to convey that?
How else would another agency know?
Mr. LEONARD. With respect to conveying classification status, the
burden or the responsibilityclearly the preferred way is immediate notice to the recipient of classified information. That can happen either by markings on a document if its written notification,
or if its oral notification, it would be something along
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. In this case there were briefings; there
were briefings from individuals and names on briefings but there
would not be any documentation, would there, to say this person
is covert or not covert, as a general rule?
Mr. LEONARD. When disclosure is oral, normally it would be preceded by something along the lines what Im about to tell you is
classified such and such a level. Another way to disclose or the provide classification guidance is to again have a written classification
that have would provide specifics as to whats classified at what
level or to convey the substance of a classification guide through
the course of briefings and whatever. And then last, all cleared individuals have an affirmative responsibility by virtue of signing a
nondisclosure agreement that if there is any question in their mind
as to the true classification of status of information they are provided, they are obligated to seek clarification before the disclosure.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Is there an obligation to ask?
Mr. LEONARD. If there was uncertainty in the mind of the recipient by virtue of the nondisclosure agreement.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. The difficulty we have in this situation
is there are a lot of people that work for CIA and are not under
cover or in a covert operation. In fact, they fill it out on applications publicly. Everybody knows they work there.
Im just wondering what is the obligation of a recipient agency
at that point to ask appropriate questions, or should the obligation
be on the CIA affirmatively to protect their employees. Thats really the question here. Because we have heard no testimony in the
first panel that there was any knowledge on the part of anybody
who was passing this information that Mrs. Plame was in a covert
status. Had there been, I think we would have seen the investigation turn out differently at this point.
Mr. LEONARD. There is an affirmative obligation on the part of
the party whos disclosing the information. If there is uncertainty
in the mind of the recipient, there is likewise an affirmative responsibility.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Let me ask you both this, this was a situation its clear Mrs. Plame appeared to have handled this appropriately, but if a newspaper is getting ready to out an operative or
a top secret memo or something and there are penalties attached,
what do you do at that point to let them know they are violating
the law, to let them know that they are going out with top secret
information or in this case outing an agent? What would be the obligation at that point of the CIA to go forward and notify the individuals that are suspected of outing or on the verge of doing this
that are exploring this?

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Mr. KNODELL. I think clearly if they know the classified information is going to be released its incumbent upon them
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. How would they do it; say dont do this?
Because when you say dont do this to the press
Mr. KNODELL. Because they have the classified information, they
can have them sign a nondisclosure agreement barring them
from
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Would it be appropriate to say this is
classified information, will hurt national security? They should do
that, shouldnt they?
Mr. LEONARD. They do.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. We dont know what the facts were in
this, but I hope to work with Mr. Waxman to get the facts in this
particular case.
Mr. Leonard, would you agree with that?
Mr. LEONARD. Its a judgment call, Mr. Davis. There certainly
will be circumstances where it is prudent to intercede along those
lines. There will be other circumstances where it may not be because they could serve to confirm something that we dont want to
confirm, and quite frankly, just because something is in the media
doesnt mean its accurate.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. But if youre the CIA or with an agency
that has that and you know they have the information and they
are going to come out with it, at that point that argument goes out
the window.
Mr. LEONARD. Again, it depends upon what the nature.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. If its true.
Mr. LEONARD. Right. It depends on what the nature of the information. Your example of the identity of a covert officer, that would
be prudent.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I think one of the issues here, aside from
all the political sideshow, is the fact that once the agency knew one
of their operatives, covert operatives were going to be outed, what
steps did they take at that point they knew a story was pending.
Mrs. Plame has testified here under oath that they knew this story
was coming, in fact her husband said he did it. Obviously there
were some conversations. And exactly what did the CIA do to protect their operative? At that point the obligation doesnt go to the
White House who we werent even sure was in that particular
chain with the outing of that story, but what do they or should
they have done? I hope that we can explore that further.
Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Davis.
Mr. Cummings.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to
thank the gentlemen for testifying.
Mr. Knodell, let meis it Knodell?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Let me ask you a few questions because in answering some of the chairmans questions you left me shocked. I
want to make sure I heard you right.
Are you saying with regard to this case; that is, the outing of
Valerie Plame Wilson, there is no report?
Mr. KNODELL. Not in my office, there is not.

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Mr. CUMMINGS. Are you also saying that there was no investigation?
Mr. KNODELL. Not by my office.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Not by your office. And so I could conclude then
that there were no sanctions, is that correct? No sanctions within
your office?
Is it one of your jobs, part of your job to recommend sanctions
where you find that there has been a breach?
Mr. KNODELL. Correct. But there was already an outside investigation that was taking place, criminal investigation. Thats why
we took no action.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Now one of your main objectives for being in the
White House is to make sure that youmake sure that these kinds
of things dont happen, is that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I would assume if anyone took the job you took,
that one ofand considering what happened before you got there,
that this would be something that would be on the minds of everybody because, again, this is like bells ringing, alarms going off.
This is the kind of thing that you dont want to do because this
could end up in your lap. Is that right?
Mr. KNODELL. In this particular case youre absolutely right.
This started long before my tenure in this position. By the time I
took the position, the criminal investigation was already under
way.
Mr. CUMMINGS. But did you look into it at all, just so that you
could make sure you did your job right and didnt allow this to happen again?
Mr. KNODELL. We didnt want to have collateral investigations
going on at the same time, sir.
Mr. CUMMINGS. So if there is a criminal investigation and you
haveand youre trying to make sure it doesnt happen again, so
you dont even look into it at all. In other words, you are the guy
who is responsible for guarding all this and making sure that everything goes right. So it sounds to me like we had a breach on top
of a breach. We had one situation where Mrs. Valerie Plame Wilsons identity and covert status was disclosed and then within the
very office within the White House there is no report, there is no
investigation, and there are no sanctions?
Mr. KNODELL. Sir, again, any reporting would have taken place
prior to my arriving into the office.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Now
Chairman WAXMAN. Will the gentleman yield because I just want
to pin this point down.
Do you know whether there was an investigation at the White
House after the leaks came out?
Mr. KNODELL. I dont have any knowledge of an investigation
within my office.
Chairman WAXMAN. Ever.
Mr. KNODELL. I do not.
Chairman WAXMAN. Because the President said he was investigating this matter, was going to get to the bottom of it. Youre not
aware that any investigation took place?
Mr. KNODELL. Not within my office.

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Chairman WAXMAN. If there was an investigation, what were you
referring to, Mr. Fitzgeralds investigation?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, the outside investigation.
Chairman WAXMAN. That didnt start until months and months
later and that had the purpose of only narrowly looking to see
whether there was a criminal law violated. But there was an obligation for the White House to investigate whether classified information was being leaked inappropriately, wasnt there?
Mr. KNODELL. If that was the case, yes.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Could I ask for one very quick question?
Mr. CUMMINGS. I yield.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Would the initiative of a criminal investigation relieve those who made these disclosures of the obligation
to report to you that by forcing them to disclose could violate their
fifth amendment rights?
Mr. LEONARD. Actually, in regards to security violations we encourage self-reporting. We would encourage them to contact our office.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Reclaiming my time, if Mr. Rove, for example,
the No. 1 adviser to the President of the United States, received
this information or had anything to do with the disclosing of a covert agents identity and now we have a situation where it appears
that the criminal trial is over, would your agency have anything,
I mean your office have anything to do now or do you just close the
books and say its over?
Mr. KNODELL. I have no indication from the Department of Justice or any other agency.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Would Mr. Rove have had a duty to report any
kind of breach?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Even today.
Mr. KNODELL. At the time of the occurrence.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Im sorry?
Mr. KNODELL. At the time of the occurrence, when the violation
took place.
Mr. CUMMINGS. All right. Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you. Before I recognize the next witness I want to clarify this point, that the investigation by Mr. Fitzgerald didnt take place for months and months and months after
it was well known that there had been a leak of the identity of a
covert CIA agent.
Now as I understand it, there was an obligation for the White
House to conduct an immediate investigation to find out whether
they needed to suspend security clearances of somebody who had
leaked this information, to maybe take disciplinary action against
an individual who might have been involved; third, to find out who
divulged it.
The White House had that obligation because this was a matter
of important, highest order national security.
Am I stating things correctly, Mr. Leonard?
Mr. LEONARD. Mr. Chairman, as you point out, whenever there
is suspected an unauthorized disclosure or compromise, there is an
affirmative responsibility to do an inquiry at the very least to im-

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plement corrective actions so that subsequently additional and
similar violations do not continue to occur and also to be able to
ensure that any potential damage to national security is assessed.
Part of the assessment of corrective action is also the assessment
of the need for sanctions.
Chairman WAXMAN. Right after the Novak column appeared
there was an outrage that this was disclosing a covert agent. Not
only that, the CIA was so angered by it that they wrote a letter
to the Justice Department demanding an investigation. And in
light of this, which took place immediately after the information
that the leak was disclosed, the White House still has not initiated
an investigation.
Am I correct in that statement, Mr. Knodell?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct, my office has not.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you. Ms. Watson.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you.
Mr. Knodell, are you the Director of the Office of Security?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam.
Ms. WATSON. Executive Office of the President?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam.
Ms. WATSON. The White House.
Mr. KNODELL. I work for the Office of Administration, but, yes.
Ms. WATSON. How long have you been on the job?
Mr. KNODELL. I started this position in August 2004.
Ms. WATSON. 2004, and this is March 2007. I just want to establish that for the record.
The investigation that was led by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald revealed that a number of White House officials, including
former Chief of Staff of the Vice President, Lewis Scooter Libby,
Senior Adviser to the President, Carl Rove, and the White House
Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, discussed and disclosed information
concerning Ms. Wilsons CIA employment status.
With respect to some of these officials, the Fitzgerald proceedings, and how they attained the information was discussed and Mr.
Libby, for example, received information about Ms. Plames CIA
employment from the State Department, the Central Intelligence
Agency, the Vice President, and another aide to the Vice President.
What is not publicly known, however, is how Mr. Carl Rove learned
of Ms. Wilsons employment status.
So, Mr. Knodell, under the requirements governing classified information, the White House should have conducted an investigation. Would that be you?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam, it would be my office.
Ms. WATSON. Of the breach regarding Ms. Wilsons CIA employment status, can you tell us how Mr. Rove learned about Ms. Wilsons employment status at the CIA?
Mr. KNODELL. I cannot.
Ms. WATSON. You have been on since when?
Mr. KNODELL. August 2004.
Ms. WATSON. And you cannot tell us if you investigated how that
information was leaked. Loudly for the record, please.
Mr. KNODELL. There was no investigation from the Office of Security and Emergency Preparedness, thats correct.

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Ms. WATSON. Isnt that unusual? Thats why I wanted you to establish your position. You are the Director of the Office of Security
and you did no investigation of how this information was out there?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Ms. WATSON. OK. Has there been any investigation by your office
into how Mr. Rove would have obtained the information? Apparently your answer is no.
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Ms. WATSON. It seems to me that there is some dereliction of
duty if you are the Director and you are to oversee the security
from the White House and youre telling me there was no investigation.
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Ms. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to further investigate why the Directors office, whether it was the person who preceded him and now he falls into this and he is the witness here,
but I want us to get to the truth as to why the Office of Security
did not do an investigation. This goes to the core of the security
in this country and our operatives abroad.
I think the reason why the intelligence was so faulty and we
went to war against a sovereign nation was because of the failure
in your office and the CIA to have accurate information.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this time.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank the gentlelady.
Mr. Van Hollen.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the witnesses for their testimony. I think you can hear that the members
of the committee are pretty stunned that no investigation was undertaken into these breaches.
My question, I just want to understand, is it a matter of White
House security policy that if there is a criminal investigation into
a leak out of the White House that the security office does not undertake its own investigation or administrative action?
Mr. KNODELL. We would not run a collateral investigation.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Let me make sure I understand this. You have
somebody whos accused of leaking, theres a court proceeding that
may go on for years and years and years, the alleged leaker continues to be in the White House, continues to be potentially there to
leak information, and its the policy of the White House to take no
action to ask any question of the alleged leaker to determine
whether or not that persons security clearance at the very least
should be revoked.
Mr. KNODELL. No, that is not the case.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. What is the case?
Mr. KNODELL. An investigation should be done.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. An investigation should be done, right?
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. But an investigation was not done?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Clearly the standard in the criminal investigation like this one, one of the questions was whether people had
knowledge of whether there was a covertsomeone was a covert
operative. But the standard as I understand for your purposes is

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simply a question of whether classified information was disclosed.
Isnt that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Can you rephrase that for me, please?
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. In other words, as I understand the regulations, your office has an obligation to undertake an investigation
when classified information has been disclosed.
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Theres not as a preliminary matter any question of whether it was intentional disclosure, youre supposed to
look into any disclosure, isnt that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats right.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. My question, and I understand a little time
has lapsed, but given what you just testified to, why arent you undertaking an investigation today? These are all now publicly disclosed information, publicly disclosed classified information by officials in the White House. You have said it is not the policy to suspend an administration proceeding pending a criminal investigation. It is very possible that people, and it looks very likely that
people clearly leaked classified information. Why arent we taking
an investigation today?
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Congressman, I will take this back, well review this when I get back to the office, Ill review this with senior
management. We need to ensure that all criminal investigations
have been concluded, and we will certainly look into it.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. If I can just stop you on that; I understand the
criminal investigation is being concluded but I understood your testimony a minute ago to say that you would conduct an administrative investigation even during the pending criminal investigation.
Mr. KNODELL. No, sir.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. So then it is the policy of the White House not
to undertake any administrative investigation as long as there are
criminal investigations going. Is that written down somewhere?
Mr. KNODELL. D-SKID 6.8, I believe where there will not be a
collateral investigation. I believe. I believe thats the case.
Mr. LEONARD. Can I clarify something, Mr. Congressman? Clearly when there is a need for an administrative inquiry and a criminal investigation you have a situation where there are in fact competing priorities and so at the very least it can be awkward.
So Im not too sure we can say that theres a hard fast rule one
way or the other because quite frankly there could be situations
where someone can make a case that an administrative inquiry
while theres a criminal investigation going on can amount to obstruction of justice. So those types of things have to be sorted out
and there is no clear-cut issue.
From a classification point of view I would submit that the immediate concern should first and foremost be lets make sure that
were not going to have any additional security violations that
would result in additional compromises, and that should not wait.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Let me if I may, Mr. Chairman, the GAO has
looked into this issue and its clear, as I understand, the rules of
the White House are supposed to be similar to the rules that apply
in any agency, is that right, with respect to how you treat these?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats right.

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Mr. VAN HOLLEN. I know other Federal officials have routinely
lost their security clearances pending investigations into potential
leaks of classified information and without even the case when
criminal charges were not filed.
For example, Sergeant Samuel Provence had a security clearance
revoked after he talked to several media outlets about the mistreatment of a 16-year-old boy and other abuses by interrogators at Abu
Ghraib prison in Iraq. He was not indicted or accused of criminal
wrongdoing.
Heres someone who made a statement, a public statement about
abuses at Abu Ghraib and his security clearance was temporarily
suspended, and yet you have clear evidence of top officials in the
White House having disclosed classified information and no action
was taken.
I have to ask you to go back and take a look at whether or not
theres really a prohibition on moving forward. Clearly now that
the criminal investigation is over, it seems one should be launched
even if in fact that did prohibit an investigation from going forward
before.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Van Hollen. That certainly
appears to be a double standard.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. To clarify, my understanding is the leak
occurred on July 13th, and within the month, I dont know if it was
July 14th but certainly in July, we know the CIA made their referral to the Justice Department. So it was immediately under investigation by the Justice Department.
Now it took Attorney General Ashcroft several months before he
recused himself and got someone else on board, but there was an
immediate criminal investigation, isnt that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats my understanding.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. That would change the dimensions in
terms of whether you would do your own investigation.
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Or leave it to the professionals at the
Justice Department.
Let me just ask, in terms of an individual who may have inadvertently outed an operative or a memorandum or something during that time, once the criminal side gets kicked in, at that point
they have the right to allow that to move forward, protect themselves, and at that point I dont know if it relieves them of the obligation but they certainly have fifth amendment rights at that point
that could lead them to not go forward with that, is that correct?
Mr. LEONARD. That would be correct.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Before I recognize Mr. Hodes, the President
of the United States made statements when this hit the press that
he was outraged and he was going to be conducting an investigation and heads would roll. He said if anybody in the White House
disclosed this information about a covert agent, that person would
be fired. Later he modified and said they would have to be convicted of a crime. But it turns out that the President didnt even
ask anybody to do an investigation. If he wanted to get the truth
all he had to do was call Carl Rove and Ari Fleischer and Scooter

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60
Libby and all these people into his office and say, hey, how did this
information get out, who did it?
If he thought it was a problem, he could have said youre not
going to get access to other security information. Isnt that why the
White House can do it contemporaneously with ay criminal investigation, Mr. Leonard?
Mr. LEONARD. As I indicated, Mr. Chairman, when you have
those competing priorities or competing interests, it can make an
awkward situation, but those are the types of things that would
have to be worked out.
Chairman WAXMAN. Sounds like the competing priority was not
to allow his administration and top personnel to be embarrassed by
the truth.
Mr. Hodes.
Mr. HODES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, you both
agree that the national security of the United States is the most
important thing we have to consider, notwithstanding competing
priorities. Would you both agree to that?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Knodell. Yes, sir.
Mr. HODES. Mr. Knodell, you came in in August 2004 to the
White House, is that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.
Mr. HODES. You serve how, sir, at the pleasure of the President?
Mr. KNODELL. No, sir, Im a career employee.
Mr. HODES. Im sorry?
Mr. KNODELL. Career employee.
Mr. HODES. Are you an attorney?
Mr. KNODELL. I am not.
Mr. HODES. Who was your predecessor at the White House.
Mr. KNODELL. Jeffrey Thompson.
Mr. HODES. Where is he now?
Mr. KNODELL. I dont know. Last I heard, he had moved to Georgia.
Mr. HODES. When you came into your position, did Mr. Thompson brief you on the situation in the White House and what had
or had not occurred with respect to investigations into the potential
breach of classified information?
Mr. KNODELL. No, sir.
Mr. HODES. Let me ask you this, what discussions, if any have
you had with the President of the United States about initiating
an investigation into the now clear, obvious security breaches that
have occurred?
Mr. KNODELL. None.
Mr. HODES. What discussions, if any, have you had with the Vice
President of the United States?
Mr. KNODELL. None.
Mr. HODES. What discussions have any of you had with Carl
Rove?
Mr. KNODELL. None.
Mr. HODES. What discussions, if any, have you had with anyone
about whether or not you should or should not institute an investigation into the security breaches that are the subject of this hearing today?

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Mr. KNODELL. I have had no conversations.
Mr. HODES. You havent talked to anybody?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Mr. HODES. So when you say youre going to go back to the White
House and take it up with senior management, youre senior management, arent you?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, sir, I am.
Mr. HODES. So youre going to go back and talk to yourself about
whether or not youre going to conduct an investigation; is that
what you want this panel to believe?
Mr. KNODELL. I report to several people.
Mr. HODES. Who do you report to, sir?
Mr. KNODELL. I report to Tom Dryer.
Mr. HODES. Who is he?
Mr. KNODELL. He is the Deputy Chief Operations Officer.
Mr. HODES. For what?
Mr. KNODELL. For the Office of Administration.
Mr. HODES. Do you report to anybody else?
Mr. KNODELL. Hes my direct report.
Mr. HODES. Who does he report to?
Mr. KNODELL. He reports to Sandra Evans.
Mr. HODES. Whos Sandra Evans?
Mr. KNODELL. Operations Officer. Im sorry, within OA. And then
the COO reports to Mr. Allen Swindeman, hes the Director of OA.
Mr. HODES. Does anybody report back to the White House?
Mr. KNODELL. Mr. Swindeman is our Director.
Mr. HODES. He reports to the White House?
Mr. KNODELL. He is a political appointee.
Mr. HODES. Do you agree with me, Mr. Knodell, that the NIE is
a classified document?
Mr. KNODELL. Pardon me?
Mr. HODES. Do you agree that the National Intelligence Estimate
before it is declassified is a classified document?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HODES. Are there procedures for declassifying the National
Intelligence Estimate?
Mr. KNODELL. Im not familiar with specific declassification for
that document.
Mr. HODES. Mr. Leonard, are their procedures in place for declassifying the National Intelligence Estimate?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir. As with any classified information, it can
become declassified pursuant to the original decisions as to when
it becomes declassified. It can be become declassified under the authorization of an authorized official and then it can also become declassified just by the mere passage of time.
Mr. HODES. If classified information is revealed without having
been properly declassified, thats considered a leak, correct, Mr.
Leonard?
Mr. LEONARD. Thats an unauthorized disclosure, yes, sir.
Mr. HODES. Mr. Knodell, you agree with that, its considered a
leak if its not properly declassified?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes.
Mr. HODES. Leaking classified information is a crime, is it not,
Mr. Knodell?

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Mr. KNODELL. Yes.
Mr. HODES. And if two or more persons agree to leak classified
information and one of those persons takes affirmative steps to do
something pursuant to that agreement, that could be considered a
criminal conspiracy, is that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. It could be, certainly.
Mr. HODES. Now its my understanding that Mr. Libby testified
that he was specifically authorized in advance to disclose key judgments of the classified National Intelligence Estimate to reporter
Judy Miller because Vice President Cheney believed it important to
do so. Mr. Libby also testified that the Vice President told him that
the President had given the authorization to disclose portions of
the National Intelligence Estimate.
In your experience, gentlemen, in government, have you ever
seen such selective declassification before?
Mr. LEONARD. Im not aware of any similar type of action such
as that, no, sir.
Mr. HODES. Do you know of any legal basis for there to be selective declassification to a few reporters of the National Intelligence
Estimate? And I want to tell you on the date that was supposedly
disclosed by Mr. Libby, July 8th, in the following 10 days administration officials told folks that the NIE was still classified, and it
was formally declassified on July 18th.
Can you explain to this panel how if Mr. Libby had authority
from the President or the Vice President to declassify the NIE on
July 8th, the administration continued to claim that it was classified for 10 days and then apparently declassified it again on July
18th.
Mr. LEONARD. I dont have any firsthand knowledge to address
any of that, sir.
Mr. KNODELL. Nor do I.
Mr. HODES. Does it raise any questions for you?
Mr. LEONARD. The provisions of the Executive order, as I had indicated, clearly provides for instances where classified information
can be declassified even when it otherwise meets the standards for
continued classification. And then ultimately the exercise of classification and declassification authority is the Presidents absolute
authority. Its not derived from any law or regulation or Executive
order, its his Article II constitutional authority to be used absolutely.
Mr. HODES. Assuming that to be the case, is it your testimony
that the President could choose to selectively declassify the National Intelligence Estimate and give directions that it could be declassified to be used with three reporters but then still retainand
that document is still classified?
Chairman WAXMAN. The gentlemans time has expired, but we do
want an answer.
Mr. LEONARD. Sir, its my testimony that it is the Presidents absolute authority when it comes to the classification and declassification of information.
Chairman WAXMAN. Ms. Norton.
Ms. NORTON. Mr. Knodell, Im looking at your title, Director, Office of Security. Im trying to establish whether you have any authority. Do you regard yourself as having any independent or inde-

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pendent authority apart from others who report directly to the
President of the United States? Do you have any ability to initiate
investigations or other action on your own?
Mr. KNODELL. I would coordinate that through our legal counsel
within the Office of Administration and the Director of the Office
of Administration.
Ms. NORTON. You are testifying that you would not initiate any
action on your own without in fact reporting up through some
chain of command. This is not in any way an independent office,
and you essentially are someone who makes recommendation to
somebody else about investigations?
Mr. KNODELL. In essence, yes.
Ms. NORTON. You have to get a sign-off from someone to do an
investigation?
Mr. KNODELL. Not initially, no. Not initially. We can start an investigation. We start security violations if security violations come
in.
Ms. NORTON. Without reporting it, thats what youre doing?
Mr. KNODELL. I would report it once we started the investigation.
Ms. NORTON. You could be stopped from doing that?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats never been the case in the past.
Ms. NORTON. You havent apparently done such, at least in respect to this controversy?
Let me ask you a question about what we do know. We do know
that Mr. Rove spoke to two reporters, and we know who they were,
Robert Novak and Matthew Cooper. We do know that he denied he
had spoken with any employersexcuse me, with any reporters.
Indeed he claimed he wasnt involved at all.
Im going to ask that a video clip be rolled from a press conference, White House press conference, involving the spokesman
Scott McClellan addressing the Press Corps.
[Video shown.]
Ms. NORTON. Mr. Knodell, can you explain why Mr. Rove still
has a security clearance today, or does he?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, he does.
Ms. NORTON. Given the admissions that apparently are clear,
why does he have that security clearance today?
Mr. KNODELL. Its my understanding that the criminal investigation didnt find any criminal wrongdoing.
Ms. NORTON. Im very disturbed by what went back and forth on
criminal and administrative responsibilities here because you seem
to testify that even if a matter that could risk the security of the
United States or of a covert agent is involved, that the administrative process ought to stand back until a process with a much higher
level or standard of proof is required has finished its course.
Wouldnt that risk security not to even begin an investigation to
see whether there is anything that can be begun to protect whatever might be the security breach quite apart from whether theres
been a criminal violation?
Mr. KNODELL. I think as a result of the criminal investigation it
clearly didnt show, that I have seen in the press, I have not seen
the criminal investigative reports, that there was no criminal
wrongdoing.

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Ms. NORTON. Mr. Knodell, my question is: Does the security of
the United States depend upon the outcome of a criminal proceeding or is there not in your office a duty to proceed as far as you
can to protect security using the administrative or civil process?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam, absolutely. Its not that were just not
protecting the White House complex and the classified materials.
Ms. NORTON. I cant hear you.
Mr. KNODELL. We are protecting the classified
Ms. NORTON. Even without an investigation, so that you might
even plug the leak while the U.S. Attorney is trying to find out
using his processes who done it?
Mr. Knodell, Im suggesting that at your level you could plug
leaks even while the criminal process is under way and under investigation. And I want you to look at the very same set of employees. If I could have up the White House
Chairman WAXMAN. Ms. Norton, your time has expired. Members
have said they want a second round. We do have another panel
waiting to testify. I dont want to deny Members opportunities to
ask questions. What I would like my colleagues to do is I will recognize Members for a second round. Could we limit to 3-minute
second rounds? Does anybody find a problem with that?
So then well do that. Members will now be recognized for further
questioning. And, Mr. Cummings, Im going to start with you if you
have further questions.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We up
here, Mr. Knodell, we have an obligation to try to make sure that
we uphold the laws of this country and try to make sure those laws
are enforced, and protecting the identity of a covert agent is very
important to us, and I hope you understand that, and protecting
classified information. Were trying to help you do your job.
During Ms. Wilsons testimony the ranking member, Mr. Davis,
kept making a point that a key issue in whether Mr. Rove and
other White House officials knew Ms. Wilson was a covert agent.
I do agree that this is relevant. If the White House knowingly disclosed a covert agent, that would obviously be a very serious matter. My understanding is that the regulations do not prohibit only
intentional disclosures, they also prohibit negligent disclosures.
Mr. Leonard, is my understanding accurate that the Executive
order governing the handling of classified information prohibits
knowing, willful or negligent disclosures of classified information,
is that right?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir, thats absolutely right. Regardless of the
intent, the damage is still the same. Again, the first objective
would be to make sure we dont have recurrences, and if just people
are ignorant we would like to brief them and what have you, and
then if there is intent or culpability, that can be taken up by means
of sanctions.
Mr. CUMMINGS. By the way, Mr. Knodell, has there been any
briefing as referred to by Mr. Leonard with regard to Mr. Rove or
anybody else in the White House since this happened, since this
disclosure took place?
Mr. KNODELL. A briefing in regards to?

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Mr. CUMMINGS. He just said one of the things you want to do is
brief people about the rules and regulations so it doesnt happen
again. Did you brief anybody?
Mr. KNODELL. Congressman, yes, we do. We supply an indoctrination security briefing for people when they first come on board
and then their first anniversary date and every year after we have
annual refreshing briefs.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Did you use this as an example, by the way?
This is like out there, I mean its here.
Mr. KNODELL. No, sir.
Mr. CUMMINGS. You didnt say, look, this is what happened and
we dont want this to happen again. You never did that?
Mr. KNODELL. No, sir.
Mr. LEONARD. I can tell you, Mr. Congressman, in November, December 2005, maybe even a little bit of 2006, there were a series
of special briefings for all cleared personnel in the Executive Office
of the President, mandatory briefings for senior management on
down, and these types of issues were in fact covered during the
course of those briefings, and this was publiclythe public was
made aware of these.
Mr. CUMMINGS. So even if Carl Rove or any other White House
official did not know that Ms. Wilsons employment status was
classified, the disclosure of such information to an individual not
authorized to receive it could have been a violation of the Executive
order, and that is an Executive order of the President of the United
States, is that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Mr. CUMMINGS. So basically the President set up some rules and
then he said Im going to make sure that if anybody violated these
rules, theyre going to have major problems and theyre going to
have to go, and then the next thing you know there is apparently
a violation but no action, is that right?
Mr. KNODELL. Other than the criminal proceedings, no action
from my office.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Im sorry we dont have clips of the President making statements about how he was going to do an investigation and heads would roll, but I guess we will have to leave
that to the Daily Show for their presentation.
Ms. Watson, Im going to call on you next if you have additional
questions.
Ms. WATSON. Yes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Knodell, this oversight hearing is called the White House
Procedures for Safeguarding Classified Information.
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam.
Ms. WATSON. In the first round I asked you what your position
was. You clearly said that you have not held any investigation and
your role is the Director of Office of Security. Have you or do you
feel that you have carried out your duties?
Chairman WAXMAN. Could I ask the gentlelady not to ask a
harsh question of Mr. Knodell? Hes here and I think hes been
asked some tough questions, but lets try to keep them a little bit
less personal.

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Ms. WATSON. I just want to know, I want to have some clarity
as to what the responsibility of your position in your office is.
Theres a gap for me that you have this position but theres been
no investigation.
Mr. KNODELL. Congresswoman, like I said, and I say with all due
respect, the reason we did not initiate an investigation is because
there was a criminal proceeding that was already underway. There
was already an investigation underway.
Ms. WATSON. But the criminal procedure is over.
Mr. KNODELL. I have not been notified that it is officially over.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Ms. Watson. Im going to recognize myself because I want to point out that there seems to be interesting other examples where weve had disclosures of leaks. This
is not the only time questions have arisen about how the Bush administration White House handles classified information.
For example, journalist and author Bob Woodward wrote in the
introduction of his 2002 book, Bush at War, that the book was
based in part on, contemporaneous notes taken during National
Security Council and other meetings where the most important decisions were discussed and made, and that, written record, both
classified and unclassified.
Mr. Woodward also stated war planning and war making involves secret information. I have used a good deal of it trying to
provide new specific details without harming sensitive operations
or relationships with foreign governments. This is not a sanitized
version, and the sense is if we had them in the United States,
thank God we dont, no doubt would draw the line at a different,
more restrictive place than I have, end quote.
Mr. Knodell, Mr. Woodwards statements indicate he had remarkable classified information of the most sensitive information.
Were Mr. Woodwards circumstances unique or were White House
disclosures of classified information to him and to journalists in the
case of Mrs. Wilson part of a broader pattern of White House disclosures or of classified information to selected journalists and authors? We see now this is not unique to get classified information
to people.
Its noteworthy the administrationlet me ask you to respond to
that. Looks like Mr. Woodward had information that was classified.
He seems to admit it.
Mr. KNODELL. I have no knowledge of that.
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, so when the administration, however,
is concerned that there are questions about the disclosure of sensitive information by administration critics, there seems to be different results. For example, January 2004, within 1 day of former
Secretary of Treasury Paul ONeills television interview in which
he voiced criticism of the Bush administration, the administration
publicly announced it was investigating whether Secretary ONeill
had improperly disclosed confidential information. OK. They didnt
like what he had to say but theyre going to immediately investigate him.
On June 20, 2002, an irate Vice President Cheney reportedly told
congressional leaders that the President had deep concerns about

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media accounts from just 1 day earlier when it got out that the National Security Agency on September 10, 2001 had communication
intercepts with cryptic references to possible attacks the next day.
The report cited congressional sources and congressional leaders.
Immediately requested a Justice Department investigation of the
matter.
The administration seems to be inconsistent in their approach in
these cases, and its troubling. They raise very serious questions
about whether White House policies on sensitive information is
driven by political considerations. If its a critic they are going to
investigate, theyre going to really stop it. When it comes to people
in-house, people they like, people they trust, well, the investigation
hasnt even started with regard to those people.
Im not asking a question, but just making this part of the
record.
Mr. Davis.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Mr. Chairman, I think it goes both ways
in terms of selective oversight and selective investigations. This
committee ought to also be looking at the NIE leaks on the Iraq
war, National Intelligence Estimates which were leaked. It can do
damage. The NSA collection and monitoring of certain phone information, which was leaked, classified secret information. The East
European CIA detention facilities leaks. The intelligence activities
toward Iran leaks.
We can all be selective on this and we all understand the partisanship and everything else that goes on with this, which has
been thoroughly vetted and investigated. We do of course have a
responsibility to take a look at what the procedures are to make
sure these things dont occur again. Thats really the purpose of
oversight, not as much as to look back but look forward to make
sure these things do not happen again.
Mr. Leonard, let me ask, does the President or the Vice President
have authority to declassify on the spot?
Mr. LEONARD. As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Davis, the Presidents
authority in this area is absolute pursuant to the Constitution.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. So they can do it on the spot. Can they
declassify for limited purposes?
Mr. LEONARD. Absolutely, sir.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Once again the leak to Novak, which is
I think what started this whole thing, is there any evidence that
anyone in the White House had any knowledge that Valerie Plame
was a covert operative? Does anybody have any evidence of that?
Mr. LEONARD. I have no firsthand information.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Do you, Mr. Knodell?
Mr. KNODELL. No, I do not.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. In terms of the obligation to disclose once
it became apparent that she was a covert operative, a criminal investigation was initiated almost immediately by the CIA, with a referral to the Justice Department. Is that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats my understanding, yes.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thats my understanding as well, within
the month. It might have been a day, I dont know what that time
period was, and I hope the committee can find out. Once that
criminal investigation is underway with the referral that sends it

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to Justice, now Mr. Fitzpatrick didnt come in until the Attorney
General recused himself sometime later, but an investigation was
already underway. What does that do to the obligations to disclose
at that point? Does that put employees in a position of having to
decide if theyre going to exercise fifth amendment rights and the
like and does the purpose of the Executive order at that point really become pointless if you have an investigation this?
You havent thought that through?
Mr. LEONARD. I have, sir, and I would submit that the Executive
order is not pointless at that point in time. Again, this is an instance where you have competing national interests. I had over 30
years in the Department of Defense and there were many times
where senior leadership in the Department of Defense did battle
with the Department of Justice, the FBI, where there were instances where the national security issues at risk far outweighed
whatever criminal investigative priorities the Bureau or the Justice
Department had. These are things that have to be worked out on
a case-by-case basis. This is one instance where there is no absolutes.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. So were in some gray areas at this
point?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you very much.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Davis. Mr. Van Hollen.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
Leonard, let me just note that after this information was first disclosed in the Novak column on or about July 26, 2003, White
House press spokesman McClellan stated: Let me make it very
clear, thats not the way this White House operates.
Two months later and still before theyd even called for an investigation by the Justice Department, on September 29, 2003, Mr.
McClellan addressed the White House Press Corps and over 30
times stated that they had no information regarding the involvement of any White House officials.
I think we understand today why there was no information. No
investigation was done.
You talked about competing national priorities. Clearly in this 2month period there werent competing priorities, were there? In
other words, before the criminal investigation was authorized there
were no competing priorities?
Mr. LEONARD. To my knowledge, thats correct.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Yet based on your understanding of the regulations in the statute and the information that was out in the
press, which clearly raised suspicions of unauthorized disclosure of
information, wouldnt that have triggered an investigation in your
view?
Mr. LEONARD. Again, in circumstances like that, even if it was
just an inadvertent, out of ignorance disclosure, you would want to
find out why it happened so you could preclude it from happening
again, even if its by ignorance.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Not just that you would want to but you have
an obligation?
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.

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Mr. VAN HOLLEN. With respect to the pendency of the criminal
proceedings, as I understand your testimony, there is nothing in
the statute or the regulations that prohibits you from doing this
other investigation under the regulations and revoking a security
clearance, isnt that correct?
Mr. LEONARD. Concomitantly while there is an investigation
going on? Youre absolutely right.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Youre absolutely free to do that; nothing prohibits you from undertaking an investigation, an administrative action?
Mr. LEONARD. The directive is very clear that when there is evidence of potential criminality, that there would be the requirement
to coordinate with legal counsel and the requirement to coordinate
with the Department of Justice with the expectation that again
those issues would be worked out.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Worked out in coordination.
Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Mr. Knodell, if I could just ask you, do you
know of any, and this doesnt mean you are personally privy to the
conversations, but have you heard of communications within the
White House that bear on the question of whether or not an investigation of security breaches should have been conducted?
Mr. KNODELL. No, I have not.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. You dont know, whether its direct communications or hearsay, since you have been there. Have you had any
conversations with anybody in the White House about the disclosures that have been
Mr. KNODELL. No, I have not.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Van Hollen. Mr. Hodes.
Mr. HODES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Knodell, do employees sign nondisclosure agreements agreeing not to disclose classified information in connection with your briefings of them?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, they do. At the time they theyre issued a
clearance they sign a nondisclosure agreement.
Mr. HODES. Am I correct that those nondisclosure agreements
and security clearances are reviewed every 5 years?
Mr. KNODELL. Thats correct.
Mr. HODES. I understand that Mr. Rove came into service in the
White House in 2001, is that correct?
Mr. KNODELL. I believe so.
Mr. HODES. So in 2006 you would have conducted review of Mr.
Roves security clearance?
Mr. KNODELL. We would have initiated a reinvestigation, thats
correct, with the FBI. The FBI conducts our background investigations.
Mr. HODES. Are you aware that has in fact happened with Mr.
Rove?
Mr. KNODELL. I dont have first-hand knowledge now, but I could
very easily go back and check.
Mr. HODES. So there would be documents which someone in the
Federal Government has about whether or not Mr. Rove, for example, ought to still have his security clearance.
Mr. KNODELL. Correct.

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Mr. HODES. And do you agree with me that, under the regulations, whether a person is truthful and complete in their answers
to questions and whether or not they arethe person is disposed
toward candor is an important factor in determining whether someone continues to have access to classified action?
Mr. KNODELL. That is considered in the adjudication process, yes.
Mr. HODES. And if someone lied about what they did, that would
be important, wouldnt it?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, it would.
Mr. HODES. You have now heard and seen on this video Mr.
McClellan say that Mr. Rove told him he had nothing to do with
security leaks, but we know that Mr. Rove did leak classified information. Does that indicate to you that such a lack of candor should
lead to a reexamination of Mr. Roves security clearance?
Mr. KNODELL. I clearly dont know the content of their conversation.
Mr. HODES. Is it something thatanything you have heard today
or read in the press or read anywhere else raises a question in your
mind as the senior security officer in the White House about
whether or not you ought to go and ask some questions about it?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, we could do that.
Mr. HODES. Will you do it?
Mr. KNODELL. I will discuss that with senior management.
Mr. HODES. And will you get back to us and let us know what
senior management and you discuss and what you conclude, sir?
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, I will.
Mr. HODES. Does Mr. Libby still have his security clearance as
of this date?
Mr. KNODELL. No, he does not.
Mr. HODES. When was that removed?
Mr. KNODELL. The day he resigned, I believe it was.
Mr. HODES. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN [presiding]. Thank you.
Ms. Norton.
Ms. NORTON. Could I have back the White House chart?
I ask Mr. Knodell to look at the middle row; and I would like
your view, Mr. Knodell, given the Executive order which you are
charged to enforce in 12958, whether you think any of those officials or any officials in the White House, besides the President,
would meet the standards of the Executive order which, as you
know, are informational if you are conducting an investigation, if
there is an official need to know.
What if you need to verify information concerning security?
Would any of those officials have had a need to know the name of
a covert agent?
Mr. KNODELL. I really wouldnt know.
Ms. NORTON. You are the man charged with enforcing the Executive Order 12958 and your answer is what?
Mr. KNODELL. I dont know if they would have a need to know.
I dont have enough information.
Ms. NORTON. Because that depends on what they say? Isnt that
a matter of regulation and law? I am saying based on their position.

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Mr. KNODELL. People do have to have a need to know for someone with classified information to pass classified information. They
also have to make sure that there is a non-disclosure agreement.
Ms. NORTON. So the need to know the name of a covert agent,
you can think of a circumstance where an official, one of those officials, would need to know the name of a covert agent, and I have
just given you the basis.
Mr. KNODELL. Yes, maam. I dont know what the White House
does day to day in their operations and who theyre staying in contact with.
Ms. NORTON. So day-to-day operations, that could change; and
how can anyone find out the name of a covert agent, given changes
in day-to-day operations in the White House?
Mr. KNODELL. No, maam. I dont know if any of those folks
would have a need to know.
Ms. NORTON. Let me say frankly you to you, Mr. Knodell, I dont
think you needI think thatI congratulate you on your willingness to be here. I know you wouldnt have been here if the White
House hadnt sent you. I am interested in remedy, because national
security is involved in this.
Normally, the notion of the White House investigating itself is
perfectly understandable where there is not a national security
matter involved. But if I may say so, I really do think, given what
you have testified concerning your office, that you are truly the fall
guy here. I say that because you have testified that you felt a virtual injunction as an administrative agent without coordinating
with your superiors, all of whomobviously, the high-level support
to the President of the United States. You clearly dont think you
could do an independent investigation. Do you think that this investigation should lie with someone more independent than you?
Chairman WAXMAN. The gentleladys time has expired, but if the
gentleman wants to respond.
Mr. KNODELL. I am good.
Ms. NORTON. Mr. Chairman, you gave him the option to respond.
Chairman WAXMAN. You dont want to respond to the question?
Mr. KNODELL. No.
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, I want to thank the two of you very
much for being here. You have been very helpful, Mr. Knodell. You
came here on short notice, and its not been an easy time for you.
However, I guess you sense the frustration of the members of this
committee when we hear of a breach of national security and we
were told the President was going to do an investigation and the
White House has virtually done nothing, not even to take away the
security clearances pending any other investigation by anyone else.
But those are my comments, and I want to thank both of you for
being here.
We have a third panel waiting to come up.
For panel No. 3, the Chair would like to call forward Mr. Mark
Zaid, an attorney with the extent of experience representing government employees accused of mishandling classified information;
and Ms. Victoria Toensing, an attorney in private practice and a
former Senate staffer.

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I want to welcome you both to our hearing today. Your prepared
statements will be in the record in their entirety. I would like to
ask you for your oral presentation to be limited to 5 minutes.
It is the practice of this committee to ask all witnesses to take
an oath. So if you would please stand and raise your right hands
[Witnesses sworn.]
Chairman WAXMAN. The record will reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative.
Mr. Zaid, why dont we start with you.
STATEMENTS OF MARK ZAID, ESQUIRE; AND VICTORIA
TOENSING, ESQUIRE
STATEMENT OF MARK ZAID

Mr. ZAID. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee.

Its my pleasure to testify again before this body.
For nearly 15 years, I have been among a handful of attorneys
nationwide who regularly handle civil litigation and administrative
matters involving national security claims. This includes all aspects of security clearance suspensions, denials, revocations, statutory and first amendment challenge to classification decisions, leak
investigations and general employment disputes that may arise
within the Intel, military and law enforcement communities. In the
exercise of my legal responsibilities, I often have authorized access
to classified information.
Weve heard of the operative documents that pertain to this
topic, Executive Order 12958, which was amended by 13292, and
also Executive Order 12968. Agencies throughout the Federal Government have adopted implementing regulations attuned to their
specific situations. But those are the operative documents that we
really rely on.
Section 41 of EO 13292 deals with who actually grants or is accorded access to classified information. There has to be a favorable
determination of eligibility. There has to be an executed, approved
non-disclosure agreement; and there has to be a need-to-know determination.
Each of these components is factually based. Indeed, whether a
need to know exists is a question that is asked and answered by
tens of thousands of Federal employees and contractors thousands
of times every day as part of their routine responsibilities.
However, the underlying premise of that first prong, the determination of eligibility, deals with a judgment determination, one of
common sense that is often referred to as the whole person concept.
Unfortunately, the system is anything but uniform. The process
by which clearances or where access is granted very significantly
based on the level of clearance, interim clearances can be very easily granted with very little effort by an agency. Most agencies, as
we have heard, will go through a periodic background investigation
that usually extends 7 to 15 years for the individual; and periodic
reinvestigations will reoccur between 5 and 10 years, depending on
the backlog of the agency involved and the level of clearance.
To be blunt, we can discuss all day what the regulations state,
what minimal due process might be required or expected in sce-

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narios touching upon todays hearing topic and what outcome a
reasonable person would apply in any specific case; and that would
be an academically and legally fascinating discussion, at least for
me. But the fact is the recitation of real-world anecdotal experiences by those who operate in this field will educate you with very
different results.
It is best to characterize any substantive discussion of security
clearances and agencies, and procedures surrounding such determinations, as arbitrary and fraught with inconsistencies. Periodically, every agency derives its authorities from these operative documents. Implementation varies across the board. With some agencies, the process works very well. With others, it is particularly broken. Overall, the system works but with numerous flaws, many of
which can be repaired through legislative oversight or correction,
though, to be sure, it is likely that any such attempt will engender
cries of constitutional overreach by any White House.
Let me use this opportunity to go through a few observations
from cases I have handled over the years.
Whether the unauthorized disclosure of classified information results in administrative, civil, or criminal sanctions against an individual is a very fact-based inquiry for which no general rule truly
exists. The suspension of an individuals security clearance can
arise from the receipt of unsubstantiated anonymous allegations or
can occur after a thorough internal investigation. At what stage
suspension occurs is up to the specific agency.
Moreover, the type of suspension is not deemed to bethis type
of suspension is not deemed to be an adverse personnel action and
therefore does not afford the person the substantive challenge
rights as soon as he is notified of the substantive challenges that
exist.
Again, a very fact-based inquiry for which no general rule exists.
Some agencies will utilize a security suspension to suspend the
employees employment altogether, pending conclusion of an investigation which could take years. This may be paid administrative
leave, this may be unpaid administrative leave, and if that clearance is reinstated at some point in the future there is no compensation given to that individual whatsoever.
Again, a very fact-based inquiry for which no general rule truly
exists.
Punishment for an unauthorized disclosure can range from no action to something as merely administrative as a reprimand, oral or
written, in the file. Could be more serious, such as the revocation
of a clearance or, depending on the factual circumstances, criminal
prosecution.
Again, a very fact-based inquiry.
Significant inconsistencies exist governing agencies determination of access to classified info. Significant inconsistencies exist governing an individuals ability to challenge a revocation or suspension or denial. Significant inconsistencies exist as to how agencies
security investigations are initiated or handled.
Most agencies experience serious and harmful time delays with
respect to security investigations that seriously impact an employee
or contractors life and, in fact, creates additional security concerns
that did not previously exist.

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An appeal of a clearance revocation is usuallyor denialwill
take often 6 to 12 months; and if it is the CIA, we may be talking
2 to 3 years. Investigations into the leaks of classified information
rarely result in either discipline or prosecution for a variety of reasons, including the failure of Federal agencies to cooperate with
one another.
And the training for authorized holders of classified info with respect to this need to know differs from the positions the executive
branch will espouse in adverse litigation for judicial proceedings.
In my testimony, I set forth a few recommendations that the
committee can look into implementing. I will leave that in the
record.
I will just conclude by saying that this is an area that cries out
for vigorous legislative oversight, especially given recent efforts by
the executive branch to expand criminal penalties governing disclosures of classified information or unauthorized disclosure to beyond
those under any affirmative obligations which protect such info.
I encourage this committee to remain steadfast in its vision to
ensure accountability, efficiency, and fairness while combating opposition from the executive branch, no matter which party may be
in power.
I am more than happy to provide an elaboration to any of those
points or anything to this hearing topic or during any Q&A that
is submitted later.
Thank you.
Ms. WATSON [presiding]. Thank you.
Now Ms. Victoria Toensing.
STATEMENT OF VICTORIA TOENSING

Ms. TOENSING. Madam Chairman, thank you for inviting me to

testify about safeguarding classified information. Since you also invited Valerie Plame here, I had to assume you also wanted to consider the protection of covert agents as specified under the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act, the act that was the basis for
the Special Counsels investigation.
My first assignment as chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence
Committee for Chairman Barry Goldwater was to get that law
passed. He put me in charge of negotiating with the parties, particularly with the press who vigorously opposed the legislation because they claimed it would curtail their ability to criticize the Intelligence Committee. It would have a chilling effect, the press argued.
In my prepared statement, I thoroughly discussed the structure
of the act, but I want to now discuss how, because it is important
to the press arguments, how we divided the types of persons who
could be prosecuted into two classes: journalists and government
employees having authorized access to classified information.
We drafted such a high standard for journalists that it is almost
impossible for a working journalist like Bob Novak in his column
to have violated the law. But we also did not want government employees to be chilled in reporting wrongdoing or prosecuted for accidentally saying someones name without having the specific knowledge and intent to out a covert person.

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That caution and respect for the mighty power of the criminal
law leads me to the main point of my testimony.
It was Chairman Goldwaters grave concern in creating the legislation, the great libertarian, that if Congress was going to criminalize naming what in those days we referred to as undercover personnel, then the CIA better fulfill its responsibility by protecting
the cover of those employees.
Chairman Goldwater was most displeased at that time, and he
characterized the CIAs cavalier treatment of protecting its undercoverand thats how he referred to it before the lawof protecting their cover. And you see that concern when you study the law,
and you see it in one of the seven findings.
But, more importantly, we created a rare approach in the criminal statute. Usually in the criminal law, it is only the conduct of
the defendant that is at issue, but, in this law, Congress required
the CIA to take affirmative measures to conceal the governments
relationship to that covert agent. No one can be prosecuted under
that law unless this requirement is fulfilled by being proved beyond
a reasonable doubt.
The statute also requires the CIA to report annually, starting in
February 1983, to the House and Senate Intel Committees on
thesewhatever their affirmative measures were, whatever they
created to protect the identities of covert agents.
I think you might all want to check to see whether they have
ever fulfilled that mandate by the law, that legislative mandate.
But it comes to mind in the course of this 3-year investigation
and listening to even the testimony today, could the CIA produce
immediatelymeaning do they already have it prepared and they
can hurry and get it prepared at your requesta list of all foreign
assigned personnel that it has designated covert under the act?
Does the CIA make any list available like that to people like their
spokesperson who has to get on the telephone with people like Bob
Novak and confirm or deny that somebody works at the CIA?
I have several other questions in my prepared statement, but I
want to go on to my last point, andby turning to this particular
case where numerous persons were subpoenaed, repeatedly, some
of them, before a grand jury, threatened with prosecution in a matter that, in my legal experience, had no criminal basis.
If Valerie Plame were really covert under the lawI am not saying whatever they say in the halls of the CIA. If she were really
covert under the law, then why didnt Robert Grenier, the CIA
briefer who talked to Scooter Libby and the Vice President about
Wilsons wife working at the CIA, why didnt he tell them that her
identity was covert? Why didnt Richard Armitage, who said he was
the original leaker, of course, to Bob Novak, but he said, having
seen Plames name in a Department memo, he had never seen a
covert agents name in 28 years of government practice. So it was
a surprise to him. He didnt know how Plames identity wasthat
it wasnt to be revealed. Neither did Mark Grossman, the Under
Secretary.
If the CIA was really being careful and had guidelines for all of
these covert agents, why did they allow Valerie Plame to contribute
$1,000 to Al Gores campaign and list her CIA cover business,
Brewster, Jennings and Associates, as her employer?

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Why did the CIA not ask Joe Wilson to sign a confidentiality
agreement about his mission to Niger? I can tell you I have to do
it. I dont know, Mark, if you do it when you take a case, but I cant
talk to someone for 1 hour without representation unless I sign a
confidentiality agreement, and then they might permit him to write
an op-ed piece in the New York Times about the trip, an act certain
to bring press attention when his wifes name is in that.
I mean, this tradecraft is just appalling to me who has spent a
good deal of my life in government service having to deal with classified material and with the CIA in an oversight capacity.
The CIA never sent its top personnel to Bob Novak, like the director, and ask him, please, please dont print; dont publish this
name. What they said to him was, Well, we would rather you not
do it, but shes not going to have another foreign assignment, so
it was very cavalier.
They certainly knew, the CIA, how to go and send the top people
when they didnt wantin December 2005, when they didnt want
the New York Times to publish the NSA surveillance program.
I havethereswhy didnt CIA spokesman Bill Harlow who, according to Wilsons autobiographyand you spoke with Valerie
Plame about itand he had been alerted that Bob Novak was
sniffing around, why did he confirm for Bob Novak that Valerie
Plame worked at the CIA? Why did Bill Harlow tell Vice Presidential Staffer Kathy Martin that Wilsons wife worked at the
agency but not warn her, Oh, you shouldnt be giving up this identity?
Why did the CIA give Plame a job at its headquarters in Langley
when it is mandated by the statute, to conceal a covert agents intelligence relationship to the United States.
And if this was really a violation of the Covert Agent Identities
Bill, why did the CIA send to the Justice Department a boilerplate,
11-question criminal referral for classified information violation
when its lawyers had to knowor pray that they knewthat merely being a classified person or the situation being classified did not
fulfill the elements required by the Agent Identities Protection Act?
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Toensing follows:]

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Chairman WAXMAN. I want to recognize Mr. Davis to start off.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you. We didnt start with going
into the coverttaking Ms. Plame at her word
Ms. TOENSING. I am having a hard time hearing you.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. We didnt go into extensively whether it
was covert or not. I asked her whether anybody told her she was
versus what she thought. But the question wasclearly, there
were no crimes committed.
Im going to ask each of you, can you name a leak case that you
have dealt with that has undergone more scrutiny or investigation
than this one? Mr. Zaid.
Mr. ZAID. Not as much. Certainly nothing as public as this.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Either with grand jury.
Mr. ZAID. There are numerous grand juries, even ones that are
going on right now with leak investigations, and they havent received the amount of publicity that this case has.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. They have a special prosecutor on this
and you can look at the hours of testimony. This has undergone as
much scrutiny as any case you are aware of.
Mr. ZAID. Sure.
Ms. TOENSING. I used to tell Chairman Goldwaterhed say, I
want those leakersin much more crusty language than thatI
want those leakers prosecuted, and I would say, Its the rule of 38.
If 38 people knew about it, you are probably not going to get a
prosecution, and so usually there is not a prosecution in the case.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. I mean, the thing that strikes me
through all of this is if the CIA fails to take affirmative steps to
protect their own agents, how can you expect the recipients of information to know that the information is protected and take appropriate precautions? Mr. ZaidIll ask you both.
Ms. TOENSING. I mean, the whole reason that we put that into
the law was because we didnt want employees to be chilled from
reporting wrongdoing, that the person had to know, have knowledge that the CIA was taking these affirmative measures to protect
the identity and the relationship of that person. So if nobody is telling anybody, it is like, who knew? How would you know that something was not to be repeated?
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. The majority is pointing the finger at the
White House, but the leak didnt come from the White House. And,
second, there is no evidencepresented here today at leastthat
anybody in the White House knew that she was a covert agent.
Ms. TOENSING. Not one person told anybody in the White House.
We have no evidence.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Let me
Chairman WAXMAN. Excuse me. You are saying that conclusively. Do you know the facts? Or are you just saying there is no
evidence?
Ms. TOENSING. I know what facts are out there. If somebody
wants to point to another fact, I will be glad to listen.
Chairman WAXMAN. So what you have heard, you can reach that
conclusion from. You dont know all of the information.
Ms. TOENSING. From the testimony at trial.
Mr. ZAID. I think we have to make a distinction between criminality and what type of administrative sanctions could possibly

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have been imposed. I have no personal information with respect to
this case, other than what everybody else does in reviewing it with
great interest, especially since its in my subject matter knowledge.
And Ms. Toensing is absolutely correct with many of her questions with respect to the Intelligence Identities Act, which has a
very exacting standard. Ms. Plame, as she indicated, was covert.
That is a distinction between possibly under the Intelligence Identities Act and that classified information was leaked and then the
question then is of a criminal magnitude versus something less
than that. And those could be any number of penalties.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. But if you dont know shes undercover,
it is hard to put a penalty on somebody.
Mr. ZAID. That would be something like the previous witness,
where his office would have to investigate to see how the leak came
about.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. There is no question this should never
be leaked. We should never out any undercover operative. I dont
think anyone here can condone that in any way, shape, or form.
The difficulty I am having, though, is we are focused today just
on the White House. The CIA bears some responsibility.
Ms. Plames own testimony today talked about they knew the
story was coming, and she did the appropriate thing in reporting
to her superiors that the story was coming, a story that could end
her career. And what did her bosses do? They obviously didnt persuade Mr. Novak, but the question is, did they send their A Team
up there to talk to Mr. Novak? Did they let them know that an
agent could be outed? That is the question.
Ms. Toensing, what is contemplated under a statute in a case
like that?
Ms. TOENSING. The statute has very high standards. This is almost impossible for a journalist to be indicted under, just a regular
working journalist, not somebody who has a specific intent.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. No journalist in their right mind would
do this on purpose.
Ms. TOENSING. But an employee would have to be aware that the
agency is taking affirmative measures to protect or conceal this
persons relationship to the United States. If nobody even told the
people who were being briefedI mean, the State Department
didnt know. Dick Armitage didnt know.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. But the question is, once it gets to the
press level, say someone inadvertently leaked this to the press,
what should the CIA do? And notwithstanding the act, from a policy perspective, what should the CIA do or be able to do to protect
their operatives and what do you think they should do in this case?
Ms. TOENSING. They didnt do anything in this case. To anybody
looking at it fromas I view it, as I see all of the facts, I have no
reason whatsoever to believe that Ms. Plame was covert under the
statute.
I mean, they can callI have represented a covert officer. It is
not an agent, actually. The statute uses that term, but Ms. Plame
was a covert officer. I have represented a covert officer from the
CIA; and let me tell you, in the course of my representation, the
New York Times was going to print her name on its front page.
And the New York Times reporter, a wonderful reporter, Tim

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Weiner, called me and said the CIA just called him and told him
that they were going to go after him criminally if they printed her
name. No such threat was ever given to Bob Novak. And good for
Tim Weiner. He went ahead and printed it anyway.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Let me ask this. So the statute at this
point gives press almost an immunity on those kinds of issues once
they learn about it. Is that your reading of the law?
Ms. TOENSING. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. What should the CIA have done in this
case if they wanted to protect an operative?
Ms. TOENSING. If this is a very big deal to the CIA, they should
have brought in the DCI, at least the Deputy, and come in with
Bob Novak and had a talk and say, You cannot print this name.
This would just be terrible. This is national security.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Let me ask you, from a policy perspective, notwithstanding where the law is today, that sets a very high
standard for the press. What should we doin future cases, what
should the CIA do onceif you are going to have an operative
outed, a top-secret memo that could damage national security, how
should that be handled from a policy perspective?
Mr. ZAID. I wouldnt in any way divert blame from the CIA in
this matter. There are many steps they could have taken, and Ms.
Toensing has identified them, and it wouldnt have been the first
time where a very senior official in the CIA would go to a member
of the press.
I often represent covert officers. I mean, routinely. And I know
the precautions that they try to impose on me, which I follow to
protect them. Because if their identities are released it does put
their lives in jeopardy; and, even more importantly, because when
they are usually back here in the United States it puts everyone
they ever had any contact with in their lives in jeopardy as well
as operations.
I dont know why the CIA didnt do more. That is a good question. The CIA should be here to explain that.
Again, I would make a distinction between that we not only look
at the criminality of this but we also look at the administrative disciplines that should have been meted out.
I had a client that was disciplined because he was acting as a
courier with classified information and he left the bag locked up in
his locked car while he went into McDonalds to get a burger with
the car in sight. That was the violation. It took me a year to get
his clearance back.
So the agencies will take it seriously when they wish to.
Mr. DAVIS OF VIRGINIA. Thank you.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.
I have questions, but I dont know whether I want to go into all
of the time to ask questions.
But I am stunned, Ms. Toensing, that you would come here with
absolute conclusions she was not a covert agent. The White House
did not leak it. No one seemed to know in advance that she was
a CIA agent. Do you know those facts from your own first-hand
knowledge?
Ms. TOENSING. Well, let us take those one by one. As I said, I
was there. I was the chief

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Chairman WAXMAN. I am not asking for your credentials. I am
asking for how you reached those conclusions.
Ms. TOENSING. Thats part of her credentials, because I know
what the intent of the act was.
Chairman WAXMAN. I am not asking what the intent of the act
was. Do you know she was not a covert agent?
Ms. TOENSING. She is not a covert agent under the act. You can
call her anything you want to in the halls of the CIA.
Chairman WAXMAN. General Hayden, the head of the CIA, told
me personally that she wasif I said that she was a covert agent,
it wasnt an incorrect statement.
Ms. TOENSING. Does he want to swear that she was a covert
agent under the act?
Chairman WAXMAN. I am trying to say this as carefully as I can.
He reviewed my statement, and my statement was she was a covert agent.
Ms. TOENSING. He didnt say under the act.
Chairman WAXMAN. OK. So youre trying to define it exactly
under the act.
Ms. TOENSING. Thats what
Chairman WAXMAN. No, no, no, no, no. I am not giving youI
am not yielding my time to you.
So that is your interpretation. Do you know that the White
Houseno one in the White House leaked this information?
Ms. TOENSING. Well, I dont know even know how to deal with
the word leak here. I know that people in the White House
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, Karl Rove admitted he leaked it. Do
you think he is not telling us the truth?
Ms. TOENSING. Well, the words are important, and Im not sure
what
Chairman WAXMAN. So you want to completely define the words
that are so narrow in meaning that your statements can be credible but not honest. I am not asking about the statute. I am not
asking about the statute. Evidently, if there were a criminal violation, the Special Inspector General investigating this matter might
have brought criminal actions. Put that aside. Karl Rove said he
leaked the information. Do you think he did not?
Ms. TOENSING. Let me give you an example.
Chairman WAXMAN. I want a yes or no. I am asking you a direct
question that could be answered yes or no.
Ms. TOENSING. Well, it cant, but I will answer no then and
explain
Chairman WAXMAN. Do you have first-hand information that
none of the people at the White House had knowledge that she was
a covert agent?
Ms. TOENSING. There has no been no testimony. I can only go by
that.
Chairman WAXMAN. You stated it so affirmatively and conclusively that I thought maybe you had access to information that we
didnt have.
Ms. TOENSING. I have information to the testimony, and so because I know what the testimony is, that everybodyand I am
sure that the Special Counsel would have brought in anybody who
had anything to do with it in the trial

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Chairman WAXMAN. Maybe he would have. We thought the
White House would have investigated the matter, and they didnt.
Mr. Zaid, in your experience with these kinds of cases, do agencies wait until a criminal investigation is complete before taking
any action or do they sometimes say, while this is pending, we are
going to take away the security clearance?
Mr. ZAID. They do not wait, Mr. Chairman. There is no requirement that they wait. I could understand in some cases there could
be a need for coordination. But very often, in my experience, by the
time you got into a criminal matter, the employee or contractor
clearance has already been suspended.
Chairman WAXMAN. And if an agencys goal is to prevent additional security violations and protect classified information, doesnt
it make sense for the agency to do something right away rather
than wait as long as 3 years?
I mean, this is 3 years now that the same people in the White
House have had classified information given to them, even though
they have already admitted in most cases that they disclosed that
information.
I dont think they shoulddoes it seem right to you that they
would wait until not only the investigation is complete but all of
the prosecution has been handled?
Mr. ZAID. I find it very disconcerting and inconsistent with what
I have seen at other agencies. I have seen far less of a grave situation or clearance infraction that has been addressed far more
quickly by an agency.
Again, I dont know personally besides what we all know, most
part, publicly from what transpired, but from an administrative
standpoint I am very surprised that something has not been done.
If it were one of my clients, I am sure something would have been
done.
Chairman WAXMAN. I am not sure if you are familiar with all of
the administrative activities. You are knowledgeable about the law,
whether its a criminal violation, but, in your experience, do you
know whether agencies will sometimes suspend peoples security
clearances while there is an investigation going on?
Ms. TOENSING. Some do and some dont. It would depend onas
was said by the panel before on a case-by-case basis becauseand
here, if I were the lawyer for a person making the decision whether
to do so, I would really want the decisionmaker to weigh whether
it would appear to be obstruction of justice. If you start calling in
witnesses and you start interviewing the witnesses and youre not
part of the Justice Department
Chairman WAXMAN. That would go to an investigation where you
could simply say there is an investigation going on in the meantime. I think its more prudent not to allow you to get more classified information. Thats done frequently.
Ms. TOENSING. I didnt understand what your question was.
Chairman WAXMAN. Rather than do a whole investigation that
might put somebody in a situation where they got two investigations going on and so theyre represented in the investigation-type
case, but, in the meantime, we will suspend your access to classified information.

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Ms. TOENSING. That sometimes happens. It depends on what the
violation is. It can happen. It cannot happen as Mr.
Chairman WAXMAN. Its not unheard of. Thank you.
Mr. Cummings.
Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I was sitting here listening to this, and its just something I
think is incredible to me, and I think we are losing sight of what
went on here.
We had an American who simply wanted to serve her country,
who put her life, her life, on the line. And I dont know what Goldwaterwhat he was doing, you know. But one thing I do know is
that we had a lady here who lost her job, lost the opportunity to
carry out the things that she apparently wanted to do, it was her
love, while risking her life. And out of all of this testimony I hope
we dont lose sight of that.
There is a reason why we have these rules, these laws and these
Executive orders; and those reasons basically go to trying to protect
people, Americans, who want to go out there and protect us and try
to make sure that they are not harmed.
Were you here, Ms. Toensing, when Ms. Valerie Plame testified?
Ms. TOENSING. Yes, I was.
Mr. CUMMINGS. One of the things that she saidshe said two
things that I know will be embedded in the DNA of every cell of
my body until I die. She said, I did notI expected other countries
to try to reveal my identity, but never did I expect my own government to do it. And then she said something else that was very interesting. She said that, as a result of the disclosure, whole networks of agents have been placed in jeopardy.
The reason why I say that is because it seems like to me all of
us, as Americans, would want to make sure that we did every single thing in our power to protect those people who are going out
there trying to protect us.
Going back to theyou know, we have a situation here, too,
where, you know, it wasnt just the law, it was the order, 12958,
the Presidents order. And unlike the criminal statute which requires an intentional disclosure of classified information, the administrative rules prohibit not just intentional disclosures but reckless and negligent ones as well, isnt that correct?
Ms. TOENSING. You are reading from it. I assume that you read
it appropriately.
Can I say a word in reaction to that? I have no problem. I have
no problem with Ms. Plame. I respect the service that she contributed to this country.
My complaint is two-fold, one against the CIA for not taking the
proper precautions, as they had promised to do so when this act
was passed in the 1980s; and, second, with the application. Because I am a criminal defense lawyer, but I was also a prosecutor,
and I dont like to see the law abused. I dont like the application
of the criminal law to a situation that does not have the elements
of it. I think that is an abuse of prosecutorial power.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I was a criminal lawyer, too. And, you know, I
am sure that, consistent with what you just said, you believed the
testimony should be accurate, did you not? That seems consistent

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with what you just said, that you would want anybodys testimony
to be accurate. Wouldnt that be correct?
Ms. TOENSING. That is correct.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I think you said a little earlier that she had not
been out of the country for 5 years. Didnt you say that?
Ms. TOENSING. No, the statute doesnt say that. It says for an assignment.
Mr. CUMMINGS. No, what did you say?
Ms. TOENSING. I said for an assignment. I didnt testify about
that here today, here yet.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I thought I read it in something that you said
to the press at some point. You didnt say that?
Ms. TOENSING. I have always used the term under the statute.
Mr. CUMMINGS. It says here, Washington Post, February 18th,
just prior to the start of deliberations of the jury in the Scooter
Libby trial, and you said this as followsit may be wrong. The
Washington Post can check it outbut it says, Plame was not covert, and you said that, today, She worked at the CIA headquarters and had not been stationed abroad within 5 years of the
date of Novaks column.
Ms. TOENSING. Right. Thats the same concept as serving outside
the United States. That was the whole concept that we had when
we passed the law.
The first draft of the lawand I have it in my statementwas
we only applied it to persons who are outside of the United States.
We never applied it to anybody inside the United States. And then
people wanted rotation people covered. The CIA said, you got to
cover rotation people. So we said, how long is that? They said, 2
to 3 years. We said, OK, well change it.
Or within 3 years of coming back to the United States.
And then somebody said, oh, but people retire; and so we said,
OK, CIA, how long do you need to protect those sources that the
person had while serving abroad? And they told us 5 years. So
thats why we have the 5-year requirement. But it was always intended, because of the assassinations abroad, to protect our personnel serving abroad.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I see my time is up. Thank you very much.
Ms. TOENSING. Inside the United States.
Chairman WAXMAN. I wanted to be very clear for the record. I
said earlier General Hayden and the CIA have cleared the following comments: During her employment at the CIA, Ms. Wilson was
undercover. Her employment status with the CIA was classified information prohibited from disclosure under the Executive Order
12958. And at the time of the publication of Robert Novaks column
on July 14, 2003, Ms. Wilsons CIA employment status was covert.
This was classified information.
So I wanted to repeat it. I dont know if I misstated it or not.
But let no one misunderstand it, and I would just use those words
so we can clarify it for the record.
Ms. Watson.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to kind of pursue this line of questioning, Ms. Toensing,
as well.

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It is reported, again, by the Washington Post on February 18,
2007, that you said, I am going to read it. It was just read. Plame
was not covert. She worked at CIA headquarters and had not been
stationed abroad within 5 years of the date of Novaks column.
You said you were here, and you heard Ms. Wilsons testimony.
I took notes on her testimony, and I quoted her. She said she was
a covert agent, and that was her statement.
Now it seems to me that your remarks are contrary to that statement. So do you still maintain that on February 18, 2007, Ms. Wilson was not a covert CIA agent?
Ms. TOENSING. Not under the law. She didnt say she was under
the law. In fact, she said several times that she was not a lawyer.
I know what the law requires
Ms. WATSON. Reclaiming my time.
You saidthis is your statement from that date: Plame was not
covert. And my question directly is, do you still maintain that on
that date she was not a covert CIA officer?
Ms. TOENSING. I was trying to answer. Yes, I still maintain that.
Ms. WATSON. Yes or no.
Ms. TOENSING. I still maintain it, yes.
Ms. WATSON. That she was not a covert agent.
Ms. TOENSING. Under the law. Completely.
Ms. WATSON. Ms. Plame was sworn.
Ms. TOENSING. And I am sworn. I am giving you my legal interpretation under the law as I know the law, and I helped draft the
law. The person is supposed to reside outside of the United States.
And let me make one other comment
Ms. WATSON. No. Reclaiming my timebecause this is being
timed and Members do have to leavedid you receive any information directly from the CIA or Ms. Wilson that supports your assertion that Ms. Wilson was not a covert officer?
Ms. TOENSING. I didnt talk to Ms. Wilson or the CIA.
Ms. WATSON. And do you have any information about the nature
of Ms. Wilsons employment status that Director Hayden and Ms.
Wilson dont have?
Ms. TOENSING. I have no ideaI dont know what he has that
I dont have. You know, vice versa. I can just tell you what is required under the law. They can call anybody anything they want
to do in the halls, but, under this statute, a criminal statute which
is interpreted very strictly, all of these elements have to be proven
beyond a reasonable doubt. That has been my concern.
Ms. WATSON. Your testimony is focusing on the criminal prohibition in the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. But I dont see
any mention whatsoever of the administrative restrictions contained in Executive Order 12958, which is what the invitation letter asks you to address.
As you note in your written statementand we have copies of
itthere are numerous elements that must be proven beyond a
reasonable doubt in order to establish a crime under the IIPA.
In contrast, the administrative rules simply prohibit the disclosure of classified information to anyone not authorized to receive
it. Unlike the criminal statute, which requires an intentional disclosure of classified information, the administrative rules prohibit

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not just intentional disclosures but reckless and negligent ones as
well. Is that right?
Ms. TOENSING. Of course.
Ms. WATSON. OK. Therefore, an improper disclosure of classified
information violates the Executive order, even though it does not
violate the criminal statute; is that right?
Ms. TOENSING. I am just
Ms. WATSON. Is that right?
Ms. TOENSING. I wasnt invited here to talk about
Ms. WATSON. Excuse me. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my
time. Is that right? Yes or no.
Ms. TOENSING. Would you repeat it, please?
Ms. WATSON. I will. Therefore, an improper disclosure of classified information violates the Executive order, even though it does
not violate the criminal statute. Yes or no.
Ms. TOENSING. I take no issue with that. Yeah, that is right.
Chairman WAXMAN. Thank you, Ms. Watson. Your time has expired.
Mr. Van Hollen.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me thank both
of our witnesses here today.
Ms. Toensing, let me ask you, getting back to the overall context
in which this all happened, wouldnt you agree that the reason the
White House official disclosed this information, leaked it quietly to
the press, was in an effort to discredit somehow Ambassador Wilson as a result of the article he wrote in the New York Times?
Ms. TOENSING. I have no idea why they gave out that information. I do know that there was this allusion by Joe Wilson that he
was sent on the trip by the Vice Presidents office. So it made sense
to me, if you are sitting in the Vice Presidents office, to say, We
didnt send him. We didnt know what this is all about. And in the
inquiry, as I understand it, and you may have different facts, the
response was his wife sent him. And guess who did that? The INR
statement at the State Department.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Do you know why Mr. Rove, after disclosing
some of this information to Mr. Cooper at Time Magazine, would
have concluded by saying I have already said too much?
Ms. TOENSING. I have no idea.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. It seems to me that kind of statementof
course, we cant all read Mr. Roves mind, but an ordinary interpretation of that may be to conclude that he already provided him information that he knew he shouldnt be providing.
Let me just go back to the other statements made by the White
House. We saw the clip here of their spokesman, Scott McClellan,
stating that the White House had not been involved in the disclosure of Valerie Plame as somebody who worked at the CIA. Now
you agree she worked at the CIA, right?
Ms. TOENSING. Yeah. I didnt hear that statement, but thats OK.
If you are going to say he said those wordsI thought he said in
giving off classified information, but
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. My understanding is what they were essentially saying, they were not involved in the disclosures that had
been made and, clearly, the testimonies that were involved in the
disclosures that had been made.

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Let me get back to, as I said, the purpose of the hearing. Part
of the purpose of the hearing was to look at how the White House
safeguards security information. That is the reason we had the second panel. And did you know before the testimony today that the
White House itself had not undertaken any kind of investigation
internally from the security office?
Ms. TOENSING. I didnt know that, but I would have concurred
with that with a massive criminal investigation going on. If I was
a lawyer to the President, I would say dont you dare do a thing
until this criminal investigation and prosecution is over.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. It was more than 2 months after this initially
broke that Scott McClellan in another statement said, we have no
information in the White House about any of these disclosures. Before you made that kind of statement, wouldnt you undertake
some kind of investigation?
Ms. TOENSING. Well, I am not here to answer for Scott McClellan.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. There is one issue that has to do with once the
criminal investigation was started, but a long period of time went
by when no administrative action was taken, and, as I understand
your response to the question by Ms. Watson, you would agree that
kind of sort of investigation goes on routinely when there has been
a disclosure of classified information, does it not?
Ms. TOENSING. It can, and it cannot. I mean, I certainly wouldnt
have done it in the brouhaha that occurred within a week of Bob
Novaks publication.
By the way, Bob Novak was not the first person to say she was
covert. That was David Corn who printed that she was covert. Bob
Novak called her an operative.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. This is a period of 2 months when there was
lots of questions, everyone was trying to find out what was going
on. The CIA had said that this was an unauthorized disclosure.
The President of the United States said, this is a very serious
matter, and our administration takes it seriously.
Do you agree this was a serious matter?
Ms. TOENSING. Well, I think an outing, if somebodys career is
being affected, is, of course, a serious matter. The issue is whether
it wasthe outing was done intentionally under the criminal law.
That is what I have written about always.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. I understand. I understand your point under
the criminal law.
The other question, though, is why people didnt take action
under the non-criminal law as part of safeguarding secrets at the
White House. And I understand your focus is on the other issue,
but I have to say it is stunning that the White House would tell
us they had no information about this 2 months after the first disclosures and we hear today that they never conducted any investigation. I mean
Ms. TOENSING. I would agree with you that it was a bad situation that happened. But I say shame on the CIA, that the briefer
did not tell anybody at the White House that
Chairman WAXMAN. How do you know that? How do you know?
Ms. TOENSING. He testified to that at the Scooter Libby trial.
Chairman WAXMAN. Who was that briefer?

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Ms. TOENSING. Grenier. Robert Grenier.
Chairman WAXMAN. And he was the briefer from the CIA?
Ms. TOENSING. He said, I talked about Valerie Plame. I talked
about the wife with Scooter Libby and the Vice President, but I
didnt tell them thatthis was on cross-examination. He admitted
that he had not said that her status was either classified or covert.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. If I could, Mr. Chairman. Do you think White
House officials have any obligation at all to put aside the legal obligation as stewards of our national security when they find out that
someone works for the Central Intelligence Agency? Do you think
they have any obligation to citizens of this country to find out, before telling the President about it, whether that disclosure would
compromise sensitive information? Do you thinkas just citizens of
this country, wouldnt you want that to be the standard?
Ms. TOENSING. I think the Press Secretary should always tell
what is accurate. The Press Secretary should always tell what is
accurate. I have no problem with that.
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Before somebody goes around saying this person works for the CIA in a cavalier mannerobviously, intentional
manner to try to spread this information, dont you think they have
an obligation to the citizens of this country to makewe are talking about the Iraq war, decisions for going to war, whether or not
Saddam Hussein was trying to get nuclear weapons material. Before they disclosed the identity of somebody who works in the nuclear nonproliferation area of the CIA, dont you think they have
some obligation forand to demonstrate the good judgment to find
out if that would disclose sensitive information? That is my question.
Ms. TOENSING. Well, it could be, but I dont particularly think
that a red flag would go off. Because those of us who work in government all the time know people who work at the CIA and talk
with people who are at the CIA, so you wouldnt necessarily
say
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. We dont all of us go around trying to use that
information with reporters for the purpose of discrediting somebody.
Ms. TOENSING. Let me saydo you want me to tell you my experience? Because, as Mark has represented, people who are covert
and I have asked them since all of this occurred, well, would you
ever have a desk job at being covert at Langley? And they laugh
at me. You knowI dont know. I have never been covert. I have
represented people, and this is what they tell me.
Chairman WAXMAN. The gentlemans time has expired.
I want to thank both of you.
Mr. Zaid, I had other questions for you. Let me ask you one
quick one.
If you had clients like Fleischer and Martin and Libby and Cheney and Rove, lets say they were worried because they disclosed
information that they shouldnt have disclosed, wouldnt you tell
them that they were treated a lot better than most people who disclosed classified information?
Mr. ZAID. They are treated a lot better than many of my clients,
some of whom who have testified before you like Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, who did lose his security clearance and his job

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at the Defense Intelligence Agency for incurring $67 in cellular
phone bills and a couple of other petty issues like stealing pens
from the U.S. Embassy when he was 14 years old 30 years ago. So,
yes, I would say there is quite a number of people who have fared
a great deal better than many of my clients. But if they want to
hire meI represent Republicans and DemocratsI dont have any
problem.
Chairman WAXMAN. As you should.
Ms. TOENSING. Me, too.
Chairman WAXMAN. Their double standard doesnt make any difference. You are counsel, and everything is entitled to representation.
I want to thank you both for being here. Ms. Toensing, I have
the pleasure to say we are pleased to accommodate the request of
the minority to have you as a witness. Some of the statements you
have made, without any doubt with great authority, I understand
may not be accurate, so we are going to check the information and
we are going to hold the record open to put in other things that
might contradict some of what you had to say.
The only thing I will say is that when we heard from Mrs. Wilson and we have heard from Fitzgerald and I talked personally to
General Hayden, they have a different view as to what is a protected agent than you do; and your knowledge is knowledge is
based on writing the law 30 years ago.
Ms. TOENSING. Dont date me that far. It was 25.
Chairman WAXMAN. Well, we will check that fact out, also. But
if I am incorrect, my apologies.
The committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
[Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:]

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