Sessions Confirmation Transcript

S. HRG.
99-1047
NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, TO

BE U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF ALABAMA
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

UNITED STATES SENATE
NINETY-NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
THE NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, OF ALABAMA, TO BE

U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA
MARCH 13, 19, 20, AND MAY 6, 1986
Serial No. J-99-120
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
U,S, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

63-8670 WASHINGTON: 1987
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office

U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402
COMMI'ITEE ON THE JUDICIARY
STROM THURMOND, South Carolina, Chairman
CHARLES McC, MATHIAS, JR., Maryland JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR" Delaware
PAUL LAXALT, ~evada EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
ORRIN G, HATCH. Utah ROBERT C, BYRD. West Virginia
ALAN K. SIMPSON, Wyoming HOWARD M, METZENBAUM, Ohio
JOHN P. EAST. North Carolina DENNIS DECONCINI, Arizona
CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
JEREMIAH DENTON, Alabama HOWELL HEFLIN, Alabama
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania PAUL SrMON, 1lIinets
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky
DENNIS W. SHEDD, Chief Courl8el and Staff Director
DIANA L. ,wATERMAN, General Counsel
MEIJNDA KOUTSOUMPAS, Chief Ckrk
MARK H. GITENSTEIN, Minority Chief Coun8el
(IJ)
CONTENTS
STATEMENTS OF SENATORS
p...
Denton, Hon. Jeremiah · , · 1, 169, 301, '519
~~r~~~~~~~~~~~~:~:~::~::::::::::::::.::.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.::::::::.::::.:::::::::::::::::::.::::::::.~: ~~!
Mathias, ·Hon. Charles McC., Jr , , ' ·................... 517
Biden, Hon. Joseph .R., Jr ·,...................... 517
CflRONOLOGlCAL LIST OF WITNESSES
THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 1986
Sessions, Jefferson B., III', of Alabama, to be U.S. District Judge for the
Southern District of Alabama ,............................... 9
Hebert, J. Gerald, senior tnal attorney, Civil Rights Division, U.S. Depart-
ment of Justice ' ;....... 56
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 19, 1986
Panel Consisting of: John C.KeeneYI Deputy AssistAnt Attorney General,
Criminal Division; Paul F, Hancock, Assistant for Litigation, votm~ sectio~z
Civil Rights Division; Barry Kowalski, Deputy Chief, criminal sectlon, Civil
Rights Division; Albert Glenn, attorney, criminal section, Civil Rights Divi-
sion; and Dllniel Bell, Deputy Chief, criminal section,Civil.Rights Division,
Department of Justice , ,............................. 174
Liebman, James S., associate professor of law, Columbia University Schopl of
Law :........................................................ 181
Panel co.nsisting of: A
.. rthur Flemming, chairman, Citizens Commission. ,<?n
Civil Rights; Robert Turner, Esq., Chestnut, Sanders,. Sanders, Turner &
Willi,ams, Marion, ·At; and Robert W. Gilliard, .president,.. Mobile, At.
branch, National Association For the Advancement of Coloi'e~ Pe()ple;. a~·
companied by Althea T.L. Simmons, director, Washibgton Bureau.................. 236
Panel consisting of: Ferrill D. McRae, presiding judge, 18th Judicial District,
Mobile, AL; LaVon Phillips, legal assistant and administrative assistant,
Perry County District Attorney, Marion, AL; Larry D. Thompson, attorney,
King & Spaulding, Atlanta,' GA;' Eddie Menton, city editor, Mobile Press
Register, Mobile, AV and William Kimbrough, Jr., former U.S. Attorney,
Southern District of Alabama.................................................................................... 258
Panel consisting of: Han. Hank Sanders, Alabama State Senator, Montgom·
ery, AL; Rev. O.C. Dobynes, Perry County, At; Daval L. Patrick, assistant
~~~~:: ~~:~~eLe~~:u~~~<kro~tI:Xl:.~'.,,~: ~~~~ :~~~~~' ~~.:~~~~:.:
Panel consisting of: Han.. 'Braxton Kittrell! judge, 13th Judicial circuit,
. . .. 302
Mobile, AL: Rev. Ben Sawada, Ashland P ace United Methodist Church,
Mobile, AL; George Horn, Mobile County Republican Executive Committee,
Mobile, AL;,and Bobby Eddy, chief investigator, District Attorney's Office,
Mobile, AL ..: :.................................................................................................. 497
Mitchell. Clarence, Maryland State Senator 505
(/III
IV
6, 1986
TuESDAY I MAY
p...
Sessions, Jefferson B.• III, of Alabama, to be U.S. District Judge for the
Southern District of Alabama , . 531
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND MATERIALS SUBMITTED
Bell, Daniel: Testimony.., , .. 230
Biden, Hon. Joseph R, Jr:
TrAl~~~p~.~le~~o~dte&;~~elnl.B~lr.~~.~.,~',. ~~~:~~~:.,.~: . ~~~~~~ ~~~~~: 67
Perry County grand jury report, 1982 , . 147
Denton, Hon. Jeremiah:
Interview of Mery DeLoi. Shelton by the F.B.! . 20
Letter and declaration of Paul F. Hancock , ,.." ,,, . 209
Attachment A-FBI memorandum from the Director to Shiela De-
laney. ra election laws " . 213
Attachment B-Memorandum to Gerald W. Jones from Paul G. Han-
cock, re canceling of investigation . 215
Declaration of J. Gerald Hebert " " . 216
"Another Look at Sessions," editorial . 551
Dobynes, Rev. O.C.:
353
~~:~:;;~~~~~~~~t·::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 356
Eddy, Bobby: Testimony .. 500
Figures, Thomas:
Testimony . 302
Prepared statement . 306
Flemming, Arthur:
Testimony .. 236
Prepared statement by Rev. Dr. Benjamin F. Chavis, Jr . 240
Gilliard, Robert W.: Testimony "'''''''' 254
~:i~~~~~~J:::~:t~i~t::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 56
228
206
Heflin, Hon. Howell:
Affidavit of E.T. Rolison, Jr., re warning of handling of absentee ballots .. 350
Affidavit of E.T. Rolison, Jr., i'e derogatory statement . 351
Affidavit of Ginny S. Granade, re derogatory statement . 352
~~~~I~~W:~~~s~~~~~~y.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::-
502
223
Keeney, John C: Testimony ; . 174
Kimbrough, William, Jr.,: Testimony . 296
Kittrell, Judge Braxton: Testimony .. 498
Liebman, James S.:
Testimony .. 181
Prepared statement of Lani Guinier, NAACP .. 182
Mfidavit of Steve Suitts . 188
McR~~~IF~~1If\)~ement . 196
Testimony . 258
Letter to Senator Heflin from 9 judges, re excellent reputation of nomi·
nee , , , , . 265
268
Menr~~:Ed~:tT~esti~n;~y:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 295
Patrick, Deval L.:
Testimony , , .. 361
Prepared statement of Morton Stavis , . 362
Affidavit of Morton Stavis, re negative opinion of nominee , 365
Ap~~n~~ :rde~~~f~th;e'\~~~b~r~~~:..~:..~~.~~~.:-:..~~.~: ..~~:: ..~~~.~~~.~:~ 373
Appendix C-lJ.S.A; v. Albert Turner, et al., response to objection to
sequestration and request for protective action . 376
Appendix D-U.S.A. v. Albert Turner, et al., defendant's motion to
transfer case for trial , , , 384
Patrick, Deval L.-Continued
Affidavit of Morton Stavie, ra negative opinion of nominee-Continued
Appendix E-U8.A. v, Albert Turner, Spencer Hogue, Jr., and Evelyn
Turner, supplemental motion to reset trial date after July 1, 1985
and second supplemental memorandum in support of motion to
dismiss the indictment on selective/vindictive prosecution grounds.. 437
Appendix F-V:S.A. v. Albert Turner, Spencer Hogue, Jr. and Evelyn
Turner, seeking motion to reconsider is granted .. 448
Appendix G-Interview of Alma Gladys Price, ra election law viola~
tICD and mail fraud violation , " , ", 449
Appendix H-Interview of Alma Gladys Price, re absentee ballot .. 450
Appendix I-Interview of Alma Gladys Price, re placed under oath .. 451
Appendix J-u'S.A. v. Albert Turner, Spencer Hogue, Jr. and Evel.yn
Turner, second motion for discovery and to compel production of
documents for in camera inspection " ,' , , , , .. 452
Appendix K-u'S.A. v, Albert Turner, et al., response to magistrate's
discovery order of June 18, 1985 .. 458
Ap~endix L-Grand jury testimony , , , , . 463
AffidaVIt of Bobby Singleton, instances of voter fraud , 469
U.S.A, v. Howard Moore, Jr., appeal .. 474
U.S.A. v. Spencer Hogue, Jr., appeal , . 480
Prepared statement '.., , ,., , , ,., , . 486
Affidavit of Deval L. Patrick , , , , ,., , , , .. 488
Phillips, LaVon:
Testimony , , ,.., , . 272
Affidavit of O,C. Dobynes, re changing of absentee balIoL .. 284
Affidavit of John Anderson, re harassment of witnesses " .. 287
Sanders, Hank:
Testimony , , ' , ".." "" , . 332
~h~f~;:~~ta~:;~~:~l~f~~~~::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
334
504
291
Thurmond, Hon. Strom (chairman):
Letter from Gerald E, McDowell, chief, public integrity section, criminal
1~=~jO~'o~t~~~~s~~r~i g~~~1~ext.~~:,.~.~,~,:". ~~.~,~~~~~~~,,~~~~~~~,.~~~,~~ 13
Biography of Jefferson B. Sessions· 111. ",.." "".".,., , ,.",.,." ,. 558
Turner, Robert:
Testimony , , , ,., , , , , " ,.,.,, , ,., , , .. 242
Affidavit of Rose M. Sanders, conduct of Gloria BedwelL. .. 244
APPENDIX
Letter to Senator Kennedy, from John Crump, executive director, National
Bar Association, dated May 6, 1986, re interview of Thomas Figures.,...,......... 559
NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III,
TO BE U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTH·
ERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

U.S. SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:08 p.m., in room SD-
226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Han. Strom Thurmond (chair-
man of the committee) and Han. Jeremiah Denton presiding.
Also present: Senators Biden, Kennedy, Simon, Heflin, Specter,
DeConcini, McConnell, and Metzenbaum.
Staff present: Duke Short, chief investigator; Frank Klonoski, in-
vestigator; and Cindy LeBow, minority chief counsel.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JEREMIAH DENTON
Senator DENTON. This hearing will come to order. Chairman
Thurmond has been delayed, he will be here shortly.
Today's hearing is on the nomination of Jefferson B. Sessions III,
of Alabama, to be U.S. district judge for the Southern District of
Alabama.
If you will remain standing, Mr. Sessions, I will ask for you to be
sworn in.
Do you swear that the testimony you give in this hearing will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. SESSIONS. I do.
Senator DENTON. Please be seated.
I will not have an opening statement. I have introduced Jeff Ses-
sions on a previous occasion, November 22, 1985. I will not repeat
the opinions and statements I made at that time about Mr. Ses-
sions' qualifications and fitness for office, but I do still believe in
all of those wholeheartedly.
I defer to my colleagues for their opening statements, if they
care to make one. Senator Biden.
Senator BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, I have no opening statement. I
have a number of questions. I will defer to Senator Kennedy, if he
has a statement.
Senator KENNEDY. Thank you.
Senator DENTON. Senator Kennedy.
Senator BIDEN. I have one inquiry, though, before we begin. I
have been on this committee, I guess, 12 years or so, and I under-
(1)
2
stand the first camera there is from the Justice Department. Is
that Mr. Meese operating the camera, or who is that?
I am just curious. I just want the record to note that I do not
ever recall the Justice Department having a television training ses-
sion that went on, but if they have that as a program, I just want
to say hello to Mr. Meese and whoever else is there and mOve on.
[Laughter.]
Do you have any objection to Mr. Meese? Are you sliding closer
to me or further away? [Laughter.]
Senator KENNEDY. I do not know whether the Chair knows about
it.
Senator DENTON. I have recognized Senator Kennedy, but I
would ask that we consider that this is a hearing in the U.S.
Senate and we are supposed to be objective about this hearing. I
intend to be.
I am going to require order. I am not going to supervise a circus.
I recognize Senator Kennedy.
Senator BIDEN. Excuse me. If the Senator will yield, the reason I
dealt with it humorously is because I can find no reason why the
Justice Department would be filming this, so I dealt with it humor-
ously.
Now, if the Senator wants me to be real serious about it, I would
like to ask the Justice Department before we begin as to why, for
the first time, to the best of my knowledge, they are here televising
or taping a session. I would be just curious to know.
Senator DENTON. Well, Mr. Bolton, the Assistant Attorney Gen-
eral for Legislative Affairs, I am just informed, is here. Perhaps he
would care to answer that.
Mr. BOLTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Biden, the reason that we are doing this is because we
have a number of nominees who will come before the committee
who have never appeared before a Senate committee before; are
unfamiliar with the procedures.
We felt that in order to give them some knowledge of what hap-
pens in a confirmation hearing that this sort of thing would be
helpful, and that is the sole reason.
Senator BIDEN. Thank you.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Bolton.
Senator Kennedy.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR EDWARD M. KENNEDY
The confirmation of nominees for lifetime appointments to the
Federal judiciary is one of the most important responsibilities of
the Senate mandated by the U.S. ConstItution, and the examina-
tion by the Senate of a nominee's fitness to serve as a Federal
judge is the last opportunity to determine whether the candidate
possesses the education, experience, skills, integrity, and, most im-
portantly, the commitment to equal justice under law, which are
essential attributes of a Federal judge.
Once confirmed, a Federal judge literally has life and death au-
thority over citizens that appear before him, with limited review of
his decisions. Our Federal judiciary is the guardian of the rights
3
and liberties guaranteed to all of us by the U.S. Constitution, and
the decisions of Federal judges are constantly shaping and reshap-
ing those rights and liberties.
This committee has a duty to our citizens to carefully examine
the qualifications of nominees for the Federal bench and to give
our approval only to those who have demonstrated a personal com-
mitment to the principle of equality for all Americans and a sensi-
tivity to the long history of inequality which we are still struggling
to overcome.
Mr. Sessions, as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of
Alabama, comes to this committee with a record which, regretta-
bly, includes presiding over the now infamous so-called Perry
County voting fraud prosecutions.
In the Perry County case, the Government indicted three well-
known and highly respected black civil rights activists on charges
of voter fraud in assisting elderly black voters to vote by absentee
ballot.
But for the efforts of the defendants 20 years ago, these black
citizens would not have been allowed to vote. All three of the de-
fendants were acquitted of all charges in the indictments, and some
of the elderly blacks have responded to their experiences during
the prosecution by vowing never to vote again. Mr. Sessions' role in
that case alone should bar him from serving on the Federal bench.
But there is more, much more. We just received a sworn state·
ment from a Justice Department attorney I know, which will be
the subject of a good deal of questioning during the course of this
hearing, who has worked on civil rights cases with Mr. Sessions
over the period Sessions had been U.S. attorney.
Mr. Hebert has stated to the committee investigators that Mr.
Sessions on more than one occasion has characterized the NAACP
and the ACLU as un-American, Communist-inspired organizations.
Mr, Hebert reports that Mr. Sessions said these organizations did
more harm than good when they were trying to force civil rights
down the throats of people who were trying to put problems behind
them.
Mr. Hebert has also stated that Mr. Sessions suggested that a
prominent white civil rights lawyer who litigated voting rights
cases was a disgrace to his race for doing it.
. Mr. Sessions is a throwback to a shameful era which I know both
black and white Americans thought was in our past. It is inconceiv-
able to me that a person of this attitude is qualified to be a U.s.
attorney, let alone a U.S. Federal judge.
He is, I believe, a disgrace to the Justice Department and he
should withdraw his nomination and resign his position.
The CHAIRMAN. The distinguished Senator from Alabama, Mr.
Heflin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HOWELL HEFLIN
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Chairman,' as Senator Denton previously
stated, he had made a lot of words of introduction at a previous
time when Mr. Sessions was here. I, likewise, made introductory re-
marks of Mr. Sessions at that time.
4
But Mr. Sessions is a native Alabamian; he is from my State. He
graduated from Huntingdon College in Montgomery and received
his juris doctorate degree from the University of Alabama School
of Law.
After graduating from law school, he practiced law with the law
firm of Guin, Bouldin & Porch in Russellville, AL. Mr. J. Foy Guin,
Jr. is now a U.S. district judge in Birmingham.
And from 1975 to 1977, Mr. Sessions served as an assistant U.S.
attorney in the Southern District of Alabama, a position which he
held until 1977 to return to the private practice of law.
Mr. Sessions became an associate with the law firm of Stockman
& Bedsole, and later became a full partner with that firm. Since
1981, Mr. Sessions has been the U.S. attorney for the Southern Dis,
trict of Alabama.
I approach these confirmation hearings with the theory and the
general presumption that the President is entitled to have his
nominees confirmed unless the nominee is unqualified or unfit or
his service would be detrimental to the best interests of all of the
people of the United States.
I am here to listen to the confirmation hearings and to partici-
pate in these hearings with an open mind.
Mr. Sessions, I congratulate you on your nomination and I wish
you the best of luck throughout the confirmation process.
Denton.
Senator DENTON. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I previously indicated,
having introduced Mr. Sessions on a previous occasion, I would
have no opening statement. Bllt in view of my friend from Massa-
chusetts' opening statement, and since it is my turn in line now,
having acted temporarily as chairman, I would like to make a few
comments at the outset of this hearing.
The main point I would like to make to my colleagues is that
there is much more than will meet the eye or ear today to this
hearing. For example, there is a document that some of my col-
leagues have seen. I had hoped that they would not take it at its
face value, but from the statement by my distinguished colleague
from Massachusetts, at least he has chosen to do that.
This document has been circulated for an unknown length of
time. It came into my hands last night. I must say that in all my
time in the Senate, I have never seen a document like this. I have
never seen a document with as many lies in it as this one, and I
am extremely disappointed that after a very diligent effort on my
part in a previous hearing in which I had doubts, but did honest
research on a nominee and then at the end decided that I could not
oppose that nominee, that we are going into this hearing with an
unprecedented blast based on intemperate and untrue allegations
in what I would call a rag.
Senator KENNEDY. Would the Senator just yield on the point,
since there has been reference to my statement?
Senator DENTON. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. I was referring to the sworn depositions which
were taken by committee staffers yesterday. That was the refer-
ence.
5
!iwSimatqr DENTON. Yes, sir; but the quotations made are entirely
.~~~!''<!>J~!context,as the questions will show, so I could not let them
~t"lld as ifthey are not.
",i:SimatorKENNEDY. Fine. Everyone, obviously, is going to put
~lii;\,~ijnterpretationthat they want. But I want the record to be
~l~atc':that·my references in my opening statement were referring
to4he: !sWorn testimony that was taken yesterday in deposition by
st!lcff~rs:ofthe Judiciary Committee and not some other document.
·Must wanted that to be clear for the record.
'!'.'Seliator DENroN. Surely. Each one of those allegations will be
t!\e.sabject of 'much discussion today, and I hope my friend from
,!\1.assachusetts is satisfied at the end that he has heard enough to
@~ke ajudgment about each one of the allegations, and that is
1\iH.!it I understand we are here for today.
"!;'K'd9'thinkall of my colleagues are entitled to know that this
h~arifig has been prefaced by a great deal of journalistic reporting,
11\:a,rches, appearances in the State by individuals from outside the
'8tat<l;and that certain individuals from outside my home State of
A1l\bamahave suggested that the current administration and its
:lead$r; .President Reagan, with the Justice Department and Attor-
lWY,General Meese, the FBI, presumably led by the ominous Judge
');Ve'b~fer, and this Senator are engaged in a conspiracy to deprive
black voters in my State of their right to vote; to intimidate them
'\J'itonot voting, particularly into not voting in my election in 1986.
]"e.:'Me)\~ve voluminous examples of that journalism which we will
':J!\faj(ea:vailable today and for the record. That accusation is part of
a: ",hole network of activities which has been ongoing to discredit
m'~·il.tid to turn me out of office-activities that trY to establish
\p'\l;re lie as truth by trying to turn me into a bigot,a racist, to por-
:tfa$"'!i:l'eas thellPposite of what I am and what every black man,
,'lX9man"or child ill Alabamawho knows me, knows who I am.
'''!'\I:;ktIPw' that my Democratic colleagues on this committee-I
l~'l,¥Qj>{·themand I like them and I respect each of them. I am cer-
!~~nt,hat none ofthem would participate deliberately in any kind
of; cheap, gutter politics. Oppose me, yes; deliberately lie about me,
.
~:d .',~)!,?::<'·; ,~
l>:Jn .!lone 9f my experiences has any of them made me feel that
i-llchy'of them' has, done anything dishonorable or engaged in, any-
Ithtngi'dishonorable. Political, yes; sensational, yes; opposition poli-
'i't!c'S,:",yes.'BuU have nothing that I can hold against any of them to
;this!Pbiut ill the sense of getting into the gutter, and I do not think
·]a!tW! Il'f,th-em can hold it against me for opposing Mr. Sporkin be-
'"Cl'ituse l'thillk I did so, in their eyes, at least in an honorable fash-
',j\:\)il;Hfithey disagreed with my doubts, I do not think they disagreed
"~itlj)ltlie'tactks.'· ,
,:x:)Ihtt that., a,ccusation to which I referred that the State of Ala-
~)!j\);\n'ili;:theJusticeDepartment, the President, and so on, have char-
"i1:ase)i!sticsthatwant to block out black voters is the whole context
'll'lli,;,yHichthis so-called hearing about a judge's nomination is being
"!ffel~;~a'l1d'y()U are entitled to know that.
"'¥·i;have.provided my colleagues with copies of certain news re-
1Y~t'f~',ftommedia i;> my State. I will also P!lt those articles and
J'othersi'llltotheofficJaI record of those proceedings.
6
I will refer first to an article that appeared in the Birmingham
Post Herald, dated June 25, 1985. That article in your handout is
article No.1, if you care to follow along.
There is a quotation from a State senator from Maryland. The
Birmingham Post Herald is one of the largest in the State of Ala-
bama. There is a quotation there in this article of Clarence Mitch-
ell, a State senator from Maryland, who says, "The administration
is conducting this investigation as a political tool for Senator Jere-
miah Denton," and that is in reference to the Perry County hear-
ings which you will be hearing so much about today.
Mr. Mitchell said that the FBI used intimidation tactics to dis-
courage blacks from voting in future elections.
In article No.2, the Mobile Press, probably the second or third
biggest newspaper in Alabama, dated June 25, 1985, the same If.en-
tIeman, Clarence Mitchell, State senator from Maryland, says, 'We
think war has been declared by the Justice Department in Ala-
bama and we are prepared to go to war."
In that same article, District of Columbia Representative Walter
Fauntroy says:
We have probably entered a period of Government lawlessness in stifling black
participation in key counties across the South. Present now is an assault by prosecu-
tOrBon. behalf of the Government on those who have been successfully stimulating
black voters' participation in counties across the South.
Similar comments were made, as stated in the Mobile Press arti-
cle of November 19, 1985, No.3, quoting Rev. Jesse Jackson, who I
think is here today. I have to say that the charges made character-
ize me as being behind some sort of a conspiracy.
. All I can say is that I believe that no one in this room really be-
lieves that. Certainly, no one in Alabama really believes that. I
never knew the Perry County thing was going on until I read about
it in the newspapers.
From what I know about it right now and what I think will be
discussed today, I have no sense of shame. I rather think that Mr.
Sessions would not have been doing his duty had he not taken this
case under his jurisdiction.
We will examine all that during the trial-I mean during the
hearing. [Laughter.]
That is what it is; that is what it is. It is a trial of me and
Reagan, as was introduced by questioning the use of the camera
here. I am not S1.lggesting that any of my colleagues are going to
play dirty politics: quite the contrary, I have already expressed.
But I believe they are going to see through the nonsense here,
and I hope so because otherwise a disservice will be done to Mr.
Sessions. I am not worrying about myself because I think whatever
goes on here today will not adversely affect my chances for reelec-
tion.
I am not certain what testimony will be presented in opposition
to Mr. Sessions, but looking at the list of prospective witnesses, you
get a pretty good idea. If it is the intent of those who will testify in
opposition to retry the so-called Perry County case, I would welcome
that opportunity. . .
I think my colleagues will be enlightened to hear from black
voters and officeholders in Perry County Who gave testimony that
I 7
their votes were stolen or altered, which was the reason the inves-
I,I tigation was begun.

Let us not lose sight, I ask my Democratic colleagues, of one
overriding consideration, Mr. Chairman. The key complainants in
the Perry County case were black. I would have had a problem with
Mr. Sessions' nomination myself if he had not gone forward with
that case, based on what I have since heard and read about the
case.
But conspiracy in voter intimidation-,-I am sure that today's
!).earings will eliminate that, along with any further witnesses that
might need to be calleq. .
Please hear this: There have been several vote fraud investiga-
tions and trials in Alabama during the term of the present admin-
istration, and I am now defending the administration against the
charge that has been leveled so repeatedly about wanting to intimi-
date black voters and concentrating on counties which are pre-
dominantly black in looking at voter registration or voting proce-
dures.
Here are some examples of those trials. In fact, I think this is an
exclusive list, including all that I know of at this point.
A 1981 case in Randolph County involved the indictment of 11
people, 1 of whom was black. Three people, all white, were convict-
ed, including the incumbent sheriff.
In 1983, in Bullock County, a black city councilman was indicted
and pled guilty to a voting rights violation. In Marshall County in
. 1984, one person, white, was indicted and convicted of charges simi-
lar to the Perry County case.
I do not know why that was not brought out in the allegations. I
~a,nnot believe there were short memories or inaccurate records,
but those are the kinds of cases that have taken place in Alabama.
Have blacks been intimidated in Alabama as a result of these
bases? In the Mobile Press article of November 19, 1985, No.3. in
your list, the Greene County tax assessor, John Kinard, who hap-
p.ens t.o be black, said that the government investigation showed
"that "everybody is treated equal, black and white."
'. He went on to say that in recent cases, "black people conspired
to steal an election. They got caught doing it and began blaming
Ronald Reagan and Edwin Meese, When they got .caught, they
started the whole thing of hollering racism and intimidation."
It is the black people of Alabama who are going to be the most
indignant about this farce. I have no propensity to engage in a
black-versus-white thing. I am very happy, and have made speeches
over and over again throughout my State, that the reason for the
rise of the South economically, the Sun Belt, is that the blacks
have finally been permitted, after a needed kick to the whites on
t!).e part of the Federal Government-have finally been permitted
.. access to education opportunities and business opportunities that
they did not have before.
That use of our natural resource, the most precious One we have,
manpower, humanpower, has been brought to bear, not just suffo-
cated. I have said that over andover. In all of my campaign
speeches, when I wasintroduced as a big hero I would say I am not
a hero. If you want to look for a hero, look for the black corporal
who walked point in the jungle at night in Vietnam.
8
I had white men walk up to me. and say I agree with that, but if
you are going to keep saying that in Alabama, you had better take
along a body guard. I found that not to be true. Every time I have
ever made that analogy, the white people have stood up and ap-
plauded.
There is none of this foolishness on any scale. There may be
some individuals on bqth sides. I believe there is still not freedom
of opportunity eXisting for the blacks. I believe some of the social
opportunities are not there which are connected with business.
But I will not be portrayed as a racist; I will not have my Presi-
dent portrayed as one, or betrayed by the allegation that he is one.
Two Birmingham newspaper reporters wrote an article which ap-
peared in the Mobile Press of October 14, 1985; that is No.4. I will
not go through all the quotes, but the article is a series of inter- I
views with voters in the black belt of Alabama asking them about
intimidation.
Not one black voter, Mr. Chairman, not one, gave any i.ndication
whatsoever of intimidation. The prime point to be kept in mind as
I
1
you listen to a prepicked cast of opposItion witnesses, which list I !
learned about only yesterday, and some of whom I learned about 2
minutes before coming in this room-the point is that these cases,
Perry and Greene Counties, involve allegations by blacks about
votes being stolen from blacks.
Now, I ask you, gentlemen, please keep that in mind because
that point has been ignored in the allegations which are politically
oriented, and I do not think you are at the level of that kind of
political fi$"hting.
Mr. ChaIrman, we were not expecting such a circus as appears to
be ready to unfold here. The facts are clear, and we believe and
hope they will be clear to all members of this committee before this
day or subsequent days are out.
We do not have a long list of witnesses today. We first did not
think it was necessary; then it was not possible. But we will parade
as many witnesses as necessary to bring forth the truth after what
we hear today.
There are a number of people ready and eager to come to testify
on behalf of Jeff Sessions and about the Perry County case and
about these general allegations, if necessary.
At the request of my colleagues on the other side, we agreed to
put this nomination over for 3 months now. A very thorough inves-
tigation has apparently been conducted, and I understand that mi-
nority counsel has been quoted in the press as saying that Mr. Ses-
sions was very helpful and most cooperative in that investij:ation.
So if there are some substantive objections to Jeff Sessions quali.
fications or if you want to dig into these allegations which I have
said are not fair, help yourselves. Let us hear them, but let us be
fair with one another, honest with one another. I think I have tried
to be that in my service here and I only ask for that today.
.Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
The distinguished Senator from Arizona, Mr. DeConcini.
Senator DECONClNI. Mr. Chairman, I have no statement. I am
here to listen to this. I think this is a very important hearing arid I
have not yet made up my mind as to how I am going to vote on
9
this nomination. I want to assure the Senator from Alabama that I
only know the little bit I have read in the paper and I never be-
lieve all of that. I look forward, Mr. Sessions, to hear the testimony
from you and your supporters and from those who are opposed to
this nomination.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
The distinguished Senator from Illinois, Mr. Simon.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL SIMON
Senator SIMON. Mr. Chairman, I share some of the concerns of
my colleague from Massachusetts. This morning, I heard on Na-
tional Public Radio a. reference to an organization I have belonged
to since I was a teenager: the NAACP. You reportedly called it a
pinko outfit.
I am concerned that Federal judges are fair to all citizens, and I
have to ten you candidly on the basis of what I have seen here that
you have an uphill fight getting Irty vote.
I have made no commitments to anyone, but I want to be con-
vinced. I think that is where some of my other colleagues are, too.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. The distinguished Senator from Kentucky, Mr.
McConnell. .
Senator MCCONNELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not have a
statement. I just came over to listen, and so I will defer to whoever
is next.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, I believe you have been sworn.
TESTIMONY OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, OF ALABAMA, TO BE
U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALA-
BAMA
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, would you summarize for the com-
mittee your background and legal experience?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. G,hairman, I graduated from the University of
Alabama Law School and began the practice of law in the small
town of Russellville, AL, with the firm of Guin, Bouldin & Porch, a
very fine smalltown law firm. We had one of the best law libraries
in the State.
The senior partner of the firm, when I joined it, was Mr. J. Foy
Guin, Jr., who was appointed as a Federal judge in Birmingham,
the Northern District of Alabama. I practiced there for about 2
years, primarily in civil litigation.
Judge Heflin, I participated in a case in the supreme court that
involved a car race accident with a guy from Freedom Hills. I be-
lieve you participated on the panel, and it was argued at the Uni-
versity of Alabama. I participated in writing the brief, but not in
. arguing the case.
1 did a lot of civil litigation at that time. Then I joined the U.S.
attorney's ·office in Mobile and handled primarily criminal litiga-
tion, but .also civil litil;ation. I defended a wrongful death case and
·,anumber of other ciVIl cases, but primarily my 2\1. years there in-
"'volved criminal litigation of a very heavy nature. I tried cases
before a jury on a regular basis.
10
After that, I left the U.S. attorney's office and joined the firm of
Stockman & Bedsole, a very fine AV-rated law firm in Mobile. It
was the firm from which the U.S. attorney who had been appointed
by President Carter, William A. Kimbrow, had left.
I stayed there for 4 years, practicing primarily civil litigation. I
defended a number of criminal cases, but primarily my work was
civil litigation with that firm. After that, I was fortunate to be
given the opportunity to serve as U.S. attorney, and as U.S. attor-
ney I have probably carried as heavy, or I would think almost cer-
tainly the heaviest trial load of any U.S. attorney in the country.
Since I have been U.S. attorney, I have tried 17 cases to judg-
ment. One lasted 7 weeks; it was against twd judges, a lawyer, and
a bail bondsman. Another one was 4 weeks against a bank presi-
dent, a lawyer, and a State senator.
The judge's case that lasted 7 weeks-the jury convicted all de-
fendants, of every count named in the indictment against each de-
fendant. We got a hung jury on one of the defendants in the other
case that lasted 4 weeks. I have tried cases that lasted 2 weeks, and
so forth.
During that time, I have supervised the civil litigation in our
office, although I have not tried any civil cases. What I do in my
office-the civil attorneys will come and discuss strategy, and so
forth, in civil cases.
I think I have a good background to be a judge. I have practiced
in small State courts; I have practiced in criminal court in the
State system. I have represented clients that come to me without
money. I have represented many of them; I have given them
advice.
My door was always open; I would talk to any client that wanted
advice without any charge. That is basically, Mr. Chairman, my ex-
perience.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you tell the committee what you feel have
been the major accomplishments of the U.S. attorneys under your
leadership?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, within a year after I became U.S.
attorney, our caseload in the office had increased over 50 percent
with the same staff that was there when I came..
Welrosecuted some of the most significant cases ever to be pros-
ecute in Mobile. I am very proud of that. This past year, the 1985
statistics show that our office was third in the Nation in increase
in overall caseload.
We try a lot of cases in addition to that. We do not just file cases
to accept pleas on cases. We have-in a four-State region of Ala-
bama, Georgia, Tennessee, and Mississippi, my office, the smallest
one in that region, has had more favorable rulings in the Court of
Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit than any other district except At-
lanta.
We have 8 lawyers; Atlanta has 38. Every other district-one dis-
trict in the region has 24 lawyers, and we handled more favorable}
appeals in the court of appeals. That indicates, I think, that we are
trying quality cases. They are important cases because those are
the ones that are appealed. I am very proud of that.
Our civil caseload has increased dramatically. I think the most
painful thing that has ever beiln said to me at any time, public or
11
private, was when Senator Kennedy said that I was a disgrace to
the office. That is the most painful thing I have ever had said to
me. I am proud. of that office; I am proud of the work that I have
done, and it breaks my heart to hear that said.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there have been concerns regard-
ing your role in prosecuting voter fraud cases in Perry County, AL.
Would you tell the committee how these cases developed and the
fa.cts surrounding the resulting prosecutions?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, that case first came to my attention
when I learned of a problem in Perry County in 1982. The district
attorney there called our office. He had written the Civil Rights Di-
vision of the Department of Justice and written other people. It
was suggested to him that he contact our office if fraud was in-
volved in the voting process. He did.
I talked with him on occasion, but took nO action. At that time,
the Department of Justice was made aware that we had com-
plaints. After the election in 1982-that is, the Democratic primary
in 1982, I believe-Mr. Johnson, the district attorney, conducted a
grand jury investigation in Perry County.
He sought indictments, I believe, against two individuals and the
grand jury at that time declined to return an indictment, but. they
issued a report. In that report, which I have a copy of, the grand
jury of Perry County, which I am informed had a black foreman
and a majority black composition on this grand jury-Perry County
isa fairly substantially black county-the grand jury said this:
This grand jury has extensively and exhaustively investigated the voting situation
in Perry County. Our greatest concern is to assure a fair election for all parties and
all people.
.':. 'At this point, we are convinceirthat such an election is being denied the citizens
of Perry County, both black and white. The primary problem appears to be the tam·
pering of the right to vote of blE!,.ck ,citizens in this county. ,,' .'
-",::"Thei:problems-are intimidation.at the, polls and abuse ,and interference with the
lahsenteebaUoting process. These problem areas lie within gray and uncertain areas
of the 'law ',and are gen'erally confined to those segments of our society which are
-~ged. infirmed or disabled. We encourage vigorous prosecution of all voting laws,
,",€ln,d':!Zlspecially would request the presence and assistance oEan outside agencYI'pref~
,Jlr~.I:>~~,federal,'to monitor our elections, and ensure fairness and impartiality for all.
L,i'I'hat was signed by the foreman of that ·grand jury.

After we were made aware of that and after Mr. Johnson had
conducted his investigation after the election, we reviewed the situ-
a~ion. Some materials were sent to me. My assistant, E.T. Rolison,
., iiJ'~.',. actually reviewed the materials; I did not.
.''''''find it was the conclusion of our office that probably this investi-
g!!tion that he had conducted would stop the problem in Perry
pOunty; thcre would not be any more fraud, and we did not see any
'l!.eed at that point to conduct any significant investigation, arid it
would have been a significant one to undertake.
:U;\ndwe just decided not to do anything about it, and advised him
"of'sllch. I had no more conversations about the case. We had no
'.iej,¢a 'at all that we might conduct another investigation in Pe~ry
""ll!91mty until a few days before the September 4 primary in 1984.
,'·'Senator BIDEN. How long after the grand jury was that?
'·'.Mr.SESSIONS. Well, the grand jury report, Senator, was in 1983; I
fl?E!lieV'e March 1983. So during that period, I had really forgotten
l> a15j)jlt the county. .
;::'ii1.fi"; .
12
Mr. Johnson called and he told me at that time that he had in
his presence a Mr. Reese Billingslea, a bll\ck county commissioner
in Perry County. Mr. Billingslea wa~ t:unp.ing fQr his third term,
was OM ofthllfirst blacks to Jjeelected,m Perry County.
He said that Mr. Billingslea and other black candidates were
very concerned abQut the~lection. Mr. Billingslea has told me that
he contacted the Department of Ju~tice Civil. Rights Division to l\sk
for help in this election because hewas sllelng a massive absentee
campaign and he believef! and was certain and. had information
that fraudulent activities were going on.
He was advised by,. I believe he told me, ,a. Mr. QUlin in the Civil
Rights Division to contact me, and since' Mr. Johnson. knew mll,
that is how the call came about. They discussed at that time vari-
ous things.
It was suggested that we might consider a search warrant of this
house where ballots were being collected and brought, and I quick-
ly advised them that would not be proper. It would interfere with
the election and was against the policy of the Department of Jus-
tice, and besides I did not think there was a basis for that.
I was advised by Mr. Johnson that a contest was being filed; that
a number of candidates-three of them were black, one white-
were filing an election contest because they were afraid, in fact,
that the election was going to be stolen from them and they
wanted and were going to ask that the absentee ballots be num-
bered so that the envelope that comes out-you have an envelope
and it has the name and address of the voter, but the ballot that is
in it has no name or number on it. .
And once they are separated and put inti> the two boxes when
they are opened and counted, they are forever separated and
nobody could ever tell if someone changed a person's ballot.
I was' told that that had been done in 1982 and that this was
going to be asked for again, and that a private attorney, who I-I
am not sure whQ the private attorney was-the private attorney
was going to file this lawsuit, and that is, in fact, what happened.
.Senator BIDEN. If I may interrupt, if they had put the number on
the ballot and the envelope, then you would know who voted which
way, right?
Mr. SESSIONS. That is correct.
Senator BIDEN. OK.
Mr. SESSIONS. The circuit judge in Perry County issued such an
order, as had been done, I think, by a different cirCUit judge before,
2 years before, and the ballots were collected and counted.
Mr. Billingslea won, despite a heavy loss in the absentee box,
and the Qther candidates who filed the election contest also won,
despite the absentee box. .
Let me say this parenthetically: The number of absentse ballots
cast in Perry County were really extraordinary; 729 absentee bal-
lots were cast out of about 4,000 total votes. It turned out-another
point, Mr. Chairman; we were told when Mr. Johnson called me
that Albert Turner and others were supposed to be collecting these
ballots and that they would all be mailed the night before the elec-
tion at the post office in Marion. That is what the information was.
So I suggested that we observe the post office, or we disCussed it
with my assistant, and that was communicated to Mr. Johnson
13
with my approval. And we also decided to conduct a mail cover of
the post office, which simply would be that the postman would be
authorized to write down the return address on the outside of the
envelope of each letter that is mailed.
And sure enough, that night, the night before the election, the
d¢fendant, Albert Turner, deposited, I believe, 347 ballots, along
with his wife, and the defendant, Spencer Hogue, deposited 170-
.some-odd absentee ballots that night.
At the time the absentee ballots were opened on election day and
counted-and we had specifically instructed our people to do noth-
.ing that would call any attention to this election publicly or to do
anything that would affect the outcome of it, and we had been in
regular contact with the Public Integrity Section of the Depart-
ment of Justice to make sure our procedures were correct on this.
And when those ballots were opened, there was a substantial
number of them that had candidates' names crossed out. There
would be an x by one candidate and both the name and the x
would be crossed out and an x placed beside another candidate's
name.
So that is where the investigation began. I believe that was your
question, how it began.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, it is my understanding that Feder-
ai)ntervention into voter fraud cases requires the U,.S. attorney's
office to receive approval from the Department of Justice Public In-
tegrity Section. This action is required prior to commencing any
full-scale investigation using a grand jury to subpoena witnesses or
initiating criminal proceedings.
Mr. Sessions, is that a correct description of the process, and did
your office follow the appropriate procedures in requesting approv-
al to investigate the allegation of voter fraud in Perry County and
t)J.e subsequent referral to the grand jury?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, we did. That is a correct description
and we followed it.
The CHAIRMAN. I would like to offer for the record a copy of a
letter from Gerald E. McDowell, Chief, Public Integrity Section,
Criminal Division, to Mr. Sessions, dated September 24, 1984,
which states, in part:
DEAR MR. SESSIONS: This will confirm our previous conversations concerning pos-
sible Federal voter fraud violations that may have taken place in Perry County in
connection with the Alabama primary election which occurred on September 4,
1984.
Federal candidates for Congress and for the U.S. Senate were voted upon at that
time. We understand that prior to this election, information came to your attention
from a source you considered reliable to the effect that Albert Turner, a local politi-
cal activist in Perry County, and several associates of Turner's, intended to manipu-
late absentee ballots that they had been responsible for soliciting from Perry
County residents.
This manipulation was apparently to take place in Turner's residence, at which
time Turner and his associates had physical custody of the ballots involved. Thereaf-
ter, Turner and his associates were to mail the ballots involved at the post office in
Marion, AL, for transmission to the county registrar for tabulation.
Armed with this information, you requested surveillance of the Marion Post
Office during the period that Turner was supposed to mail the subject ballots. This
surveillance disclosed that Turner and an associate arrived at the post office when
e.pected with literally hundreds of absentee ballote. and that these two individuals
proceeded to place these ballote in the mails.
14
Thereafter, vIsual inspection of 'the ballots thus deposited'wasconducted by the
Postal Inspection Service; which in turn' disclosed that over 540 absentee ballots
were involved and that sevetaloLthem ,contained' indicia that. they had been
opened, .
Based on this information, the districtattorl1ey for the judicial district encompass-
ing Perry County, obtained a ,protective, order ,from" an' Alabama State probate 5lJdge
requiring that the ballots involved, here be numbered -in such a way that they'may
subsequently be paired up with their respective ballot envelopes,
Since these ballot envelopes contained the signl:iture and the oath of the voters
who in each instance cas~ the ,ballots ,enclosed, this,protectIve,order will permit the
'ballots delivered by Mr; Turner to be s,pecifically identified by voter.
This evidence is sufficient, in our view, to constitute the predicate for ,an investi~
gation by the Bureau, should the Perry County district attorney specifically request
federal intervention in the matter.
The principal statutory basis for this investigation would be mail fraud law
which, as you know, has been interpreted to apply to schemes to fraudulently ma~
nipulate and cast absentee ballots.
As you' know, the feature of this matter that makes it unique -is the protective
order which the State obtained allowing specific suspicious ballots to be linked to
identified voters. As, such, your investigation of this matter would probably best
begin with a canvass of at least a sampling of the voters involved to ascertain
whether the ballot attributed to each such voter, in fact, reflected the votes that the
voter involved intended to cast, and to determine the circumstances under which
the voter involved was induced to vote absentee and to entrust his or her ballot to
the custody of Mr, Turner and his assoCiates.
However, since this unique investigative technique will require that the confiden-
tiality of the ballots in question be violated, we strongly urge you to have the appro~
priate State authority approve the pairing up of the ballots with their numbered
ballot envelopes before the investigation suggested above is attempted.
Pursuant to 9 USAM 2.133(h) and 2.133(0), you are authorized to conduct a Feder~
.al c,riminal investigation of this matter along the lines suggested above. In that this
investigation is un.ique, we would appreciate your keeping us currently advised con~
cerning its progress. We also trust that you 'will not hesitate to let us know how we
can help you further in this matter.
I am going to ask the investigator to hold up a ballot here to
show the changes that were made in them. These are actual bal-
lots; if you will, hand these down to the witness.
[Aforementioned letter follows:]
".
15
GEMoO:CCD:csm
Wa,hlfI,IOIl, D.C. 10JJO
SEP 24 1984
Mr. Jeff Sessions

United States Attorney
P.O. Drawer E
Mobile, Alabama 36601
Re: Perry county Voting Matter.
Dear Mr. Sessions:
This will confirm our previous conversations concerning
possible federal vote fraud violations that may have taken place
in Perry County in connection with the Alabama primary Election
which occurred on September 4, 1984. Federal candidates for
Con9ress and for United States Senate were voted upon at that
time.
We understand that prior to this eleotion in format, ion came
to your attention from a source you considered reliable to the
effect that Albert Turner, a local political activist in Perry
County, and several associates of 'Turner's, intended to
manipulate absentee ballots that, they had. been responsible for
soliciting from Perry County residents. This manipulation was
apparently to take place in Turner's residence, at which time
Turner and his associates had physical custody of the ballots
involved. Thereafter, Turner and his associates Were to mail the
ballots involved at the post office in Marion, Alabama, for
tran$mission to the county registrar for tabulation.
,Armed with this information, you requested surveillance of
the Marion post office during the period that Turner was supposed
to mail the sUbjeot ballots. This surveillance disclosed that
);Turner and an assooiate arrived at the post office when expected
with ",J,iterally hundreds" ,of absentee ballots; and that these two
~ndividuals proceeded to place these ballots in the mails.
Whereafter, visual inspection of the ballots thus deposited was
conducited by the Postal Inspection Service I Which in turn
: disclosed that over 540 absentee ballots were involved, and that
se~eral of them contained indicia that they had been opened.
16
-,-
Based on this information, the District Attorney for the
jUdicial district encompassing perry County obtained a protective
order from an Alabama State Probate JUdge, requiring that the
ballots involved here be number-E'ld in such a way that they may
subsequently be paired-up with their respective ballot envelopes.
Since these ballot envelopes contain the signature and the oath
of the voters who in each instance cast the ballots enclosed,
this protective order will permit the ballots delivered by
Mr. Turner to be specifically identified by voter.
This evidence is sufficient in our view to constitute the
predicate for an investigation by the Bureau, should the Per,ry
county District Attorney specifically request federal
intervention in the matter. The principal statutory basis 'for
this investigation would be the mail fraud law, which as you know
has been interpreted to apply to schemes to fraudulently
manipulate and cast ab'sentee ballots. See e.g.
United States v. Clapps, 632 F.2d 1148 13rd Cir. 1984),
Un~ted States v~ Odom, 736 F.2d 104 (4th Cir. 1984)J accord:
United States v. Curry, 681 F.2d .407 (5th Cir. 19~
United States v. McNeeley, 660 F.2d 496 (5th Cir. 1981 - summary
order) •
In that. connection, to constitute. a: criminally actionable
fre,udit will be necessary for your investigation to confirm
either that Turner and his associates fraudulently and improperly
opened and edited' the ballots entrusted to their c:ustodyf'or
maJlingJ or that Turner and. his associates destroyed b'allots
ent-ruste.d tothe;r, cu~tody~or th~t "Turner and his associates
obtained ballots. from voters'without the active 'participation of
the yoters l'nvo,lved; or that Turner and his ,associates obtained
bl,ank .,a,bsentee ballots ,.~rc.rn the voters involved; or that Turner
a,nCl.hls assqciates bribed the voters involved ,to vote absentee'.
it ~ill a'~~o ,be he"lpful, althougp' not "in our judgment critical to
such an investigation, to demonstrate that the voters involved in
the transactions linked to Turner and, 'his, associates were not
entitled..under' Ala.bama law to cast abse'ntee ballots in the 1984
Alabama Primary Election. In the event that you can prove
factually that fraudulent absentee ballots were cast for
candidates running in either or both the federal contests that
were ,on the ballot in this election. prosecution under 18 U.S.C.
§§241/242 .is al~o a possibility.
As you know; the feature of this matter that makes 'it unique
is the protective order which the State obtained allowing
specific suspicious ballots to be linked to identified voters;
As such, your investigation of this matter would probably best
begin with a canvass of at least. a sampling of the voters
involved, to ascertain Whether the ballot attributed to each such
voter in fact reflected the vote (s) that the voter involved
17
- 3 -
intended to cast, and to determine the circumstance. under which

the voter involve~ was induced to vote absentee and to entrust
his or her ballot to the custody of Mr. Turner and his
associates. However, since this unique investigative technique
will require that the confidentiality of the ballots in question
be violated, we strongly urge you to have the appropriate state
authorlty-"approvethe pairing-up of the ball()ts with their
numbered ballot envelopes before the investigation sU9gested
above is attempted.
P-u·rsuant'to 9 U.S.A.M. 2.133 (h) and 2.133 (0), you are
authorized to conduct a federal criminal investigation of this
matter along the lines sU9gested above. In that this
inv~sti9ation is unique, we, would appreciate your keeping us
currently advised concerning its ·progress. We also trust that
y~u wi~l not -hesitate to let us know how we can help you further
in this matter.
Sincerely,
Gerald- E.McOowell, Chief
Public Integrity Section
Criminal Oivision
By.
Craig C. Oonsanto, Director
Election Crimes Branch
Public Integrity Section
cp: ,Cair! Matthews
Associate Deputy Attorney General
William J. Clancy
Public Corruption unit
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Barry weinberg
Voting Riqhts Seotion·
Civil Right Division (FYI)
18
Senator KENNEDY. Can I ask, Is this one of the absentee ballots
that was collected by the defendant?
Mr. SHORT. This is one ballot, Senator.
Senator KENNEDY. Of all of the absentee ballots?
Mr: SHORT. Of all; that is correct, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. And the defendants-how many did they file,
so that we have a point of information of what is being held up
here?
Mr. SESSIONS. That is 1 of the 504, Senator, that were filed,
Senator KENNEDY. It is 1 of504.
Senator BIDEN. All of which were mailed by the defendants?
Mr SESSIONS. 300-and-something by Turner and 170-something
by--
The CHAIRMAN. Speak louder; we cannot hear you.
Mr. SESSIONS. 300 by defendant Turner-340, I believe-and 170-
sOJ'Ile-odd by the defendant Hogue, within a couple of hours of each
other the night before the primary.
The CHAIRMAN. Were the ballots all changed in a similar
manner?
Mr. SESSIONS. All the Turner ballots were changed in the same
manner. Each one of .those that traced back to Albert Turner, he
crossed out both the x and the name, as you can see in that ballot.
The Hogue ballots-each one of them were changed by erasing
the x that had been placed and placing a new x by a different can-
didate's name. In each instance, the changes were from non-
Turner-supported candidates to Turner-supported candidates.
Senator KENNEDY. Could I, just for the point of the record-are
these the defendants that were found not guilty that we are refer-
ring to?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; but, Senator--
Senator KENNEDY. I thank you. I do not have any other ques-
tions.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand that, but I would ask you to--
The CHAIRMAN. Go. ahead and answer; you have a right to
answer. You can explain it.
Mr. SESSIONS. Please evaluate me on my decisionmaking process
and whether or not the indictments should be brought. Cases do
fail and you do lose cases, but the question is, Is the integrity of
your decisionmaking process good?
The CHAIRMAN. Do not drop your voice; speak out so we can all
hear you.
Mr. SESSIONS. All right, sir.
Is that the top ballot, Mary Shelton's ballot there?
Mr. SHORT. That is correct.
Mr. SESSIONS. I have here a copy of a statement that Mary Shel-
ton gave, and we had this statement and her grand jury testimony,
which is still not available for production. But she was 31 years of
age and she stated-she was shown that ballot by an agent of the
FBI, I believe-yes, by an agent of the FBI, and she stated that she
voted it by herself and no one was present when she filled out the
absentee ballot.
She said she did not observe Albert Turner or Evelyn Turner,
who I believe are listed as witnesses to her signature on the ballot.
19
She did not-they were not present. She stated that she did not
make any changes on the ballot.
She stated she personally sealed the ballot. She did not observe
Albert or Evelyn Turner witness it. She stated that Albert Turner
picked up the ballot during an unannounced visit when he came
by.
She was shown that ballot and she said she did not make any
changes, and specifically she said she voted for Reese Billingslea
and not for Setzer Howard, the Turner slate candidate.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, you are speaking about the ballot here that
you are referring to?
Mr. SESSIONS. That very ballot right there. She said there were
no--
The CHAIRMAN. And this is the person who voted that ballot?
Mr. SESSIONS. That is correct, Mr. Chairman, and she said that
her vote for Reese Billingslea had been crossed out, and Reese Bil-
lingslea is running for his third term as a black incumbent politi-
cian in the county and these voters were all black who were being
interviewed.
She said she voted for Eddie Perry and not John Ward. Ward
was a slate candidate of Albert Turner. She said she voted for
Warren Kinard and not for Wilbert Turner. All of these candidates
that I have mentioned are black candidates she voted for, and the
ballots were changed from black candidates to slate black candi-
dates.
She said she voted tor Ann Nichols and not for Tululah Nelson,
and all of those had been changed, Mr. Chairman.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that that statement
he just read by Ms. Shelton be included in the record?
The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, so ordered.
[Aforementioned material follows:]
20
FEDERAL aUREAU,OF INVeSTIGATION
1 0.1.01 lraMc"Pt'on_...!'cJ0olc'ul.8,, _
\
31. MARY DaLOIS SHELTON, Route 6, Box 391, Selma, Alabama

36701, having been advised of the official identity of the
·interviewing agent and the nature of the interview, there--
after provided the following information:
SHELTON stated she was born August 31, 1953.
SHELTON advised she is employed by Selma Apparel, 107
Selma Bypass, Selma, Alabama, Teleph~ne No. 205/872-744'1.
SHELTON stated she has,no other income.
SHELTON stated the reason fot voting absentee was due
to work and that she was unable to get to the polls in Perry
County, Alabama, after leaving her employment in Selma.
SlIELTON stated no one sugc;lested to her to use absentee
voting.
SHELTON stated she was not out of town at the time of
the last election in september. SHELTON stated she received
her absentee ballot in the mail. SHELTON stated ahe was not
solicited by any candidate nor did any candidate provide
information or assess to absentee balloting'.
E stated she voted b rself, "and no one e
was present whe e absentee SHELTON
no person
SIJELTON stated she personallY sealed her ballot b;.;tt

did not observe ALBERT TURNER nor EVELYN TURNER witness it.
SHELTON stated her ballot was returned by ALBERT TURNER of
Marion, Alabama. SHELTOn stated TURNER picked up the ballot
at her house, in persen, during an unannounced visit by' TURNER.
SHELTON did not recall how she obtafned the application
Mobile
9/26/04
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21
MO 56C-215
Co..U'",elion oll~terview cl
_...:.:...:.::---.:..:-=-=-=----------:--------
MARY DeLOrS SHBLTON 2
,Pege--=
,
for the absentee ballot.
An absentee ballot with four (4) names crossed out

was displayed to SllEL,TON who stateCi she did not make any
changes on her ballot. specifically, SHELTON stated she
voted for REESE BILLInGSLBA and not SETZF;R HO\o/ARn. SHELTON
stated she voted for EDDIE, PERRY, and not JOlIN WARD. SHELTON
stated she voted for WARREN KYNARD, and not NILBERT TURNER.
SHELTON 'stated she voted for lmN NICHOLS, and not TAr~LULAH
NELSON.
. ,;.... 3 G
22
Mr. SESSIONS. I have that--
'rhe CHAIRMAN. Now, that is what she told the FBI and she testi-
fied to at the trial?
Mr. SESSIONS. And she testified at the trial, Mr. Chairman, and
let me point out what she testified to at trial. She was called; she
said that is her ballot, but "she did not mark anything out."
Going down the ballot, she said she voted for Reese Billingslea,
but it had been scratched out and she did not put an x for Sentzer
Howard. She said she voted for Eddie Perry, and she went to school
with him, and it was scratched out and voted for another one.
Eddie Perry was a friend and was known by'most of the Sheltons.
She said she voted for Warren Kinard, and it had been scratched
out and voted for another one. She said Albert Turner had picked
up her ballot. '
Mr. Chairm",n, I think a proper review of this situation and ques-
tions raised by this committee should deal with the evidence that J
we had in this,case. I do not know a lot of things about the law, but 1
I am pretty good at evaluating a case as a prosecutor. I believe I
can do a fairly good job at that.
And let me tell ~ou what the evidence we had just with regard to
, the Sheltons was, If it is appropriate at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
The CHAIRMAN. Are they black or white?
Mr. SESSIONS. They are all black.
We just talked about Mary D. Shelton. Loretta Shelton-their
stories never changed, Mr. Chairman. They said--
The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you a question before we pick those"
ballots up and show them to the Senators. '
Mr. SESSIONS. All right.
The CHAIRMAN. Are those ballots by voters who said they did not
vote the way that the ballots turned in indicated?
Mr. SESSIONS. I have not examined each and everyone. They .
were ballots introduced at trial by the Government, so I assume ;,
alm,?st ~ach and ever!' one of them went to the individual counts in;
the mdlCtment. I beheve they all do, but maybe-there could have '0
been a ballot introduced for another reason, but I do not think so.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. You can hand those ballots up and;;
pass them around and let the Senators on the committee see them. ',1
Mr. SESSIONS. Loretta Shelton-and I will hold this up; it has;1
one, two, three, four mark outs. It actually looks identical to the 1
ballot there that is behind you, I b e l i e v e . ' ;
Loretta Shelton is age 27. She said that she filled out her absen<',
tee ballots in the presence of her husband; wits not influenced to"
vote by any other person. She said she signed the envelope contain")
ing her ballot, but did not observe the two witnesses, and the wit-;"
nesses are Albert and Evelyn Turner. 'w
She observed her ballot; it was shown to her. She said she did not)
cross out any individual's name and did not make any of tM;
changes on the ballot. At trial, Loretta Shelton said that she)
worked at the Dallas Uniform Co. "I did not mark those out.f~
Those were her direct quotes when she was shown the ballot.,,'
She said she \oted for Eddie Perry. "He is my cousin," she said~
and it was marked through. She voted for Kinard, and it w!l§'
;~
23
l
I! marked through. "Somebody changed it." And she said Albert
Turner was the one that picked up the ballot.
1 Edward Shelton-four changes on his ballot, almost identical to
I
~
that ballot behind you, Mr. Chairman. Shelton advised that his
wife, Loretta, Shelton, had marked the ballot and placed it in the
envelope. Albert Turner was present when Loretta Shelton marked
t the ballot.
i Shelton stated he did not recall any of the individuals he voted
I
for, except for Eddie Perry. When the ballot was displayed to him,
he said he did not observe it when it was being marked and he
could not say which name-whether any of the individual's names
had been crossed out, with the exception that he and his wife
agreed they would vote for Eddie Perry and not John Ward. He
sai9 it was not sealed or signed in his presence.
Fannie Shelton, age 36; there were four different changes on her
ballot. She said that she marked the ballot, placed it into the ballot
en"elope, sealed the ballot, and signed her name on the back.
She said she did not observe Albert Turner or Evelyn Turner
witness her signature, and they signed as witnesses on both of
HtElse ballots. She stated that Turner came by and picked up the
ballots.
.:Upon being displayed her ballot, Shelton stated she did not cross
out any of the individuals' names and did not vote for theindivid·
wals as shown on this ballot, which is marked out in a similar fash-
ion as the others.
$he said she voted for Don Harrison and not H.W. McMillan.
'$lte~;said she voted for Reese Billingslea and not Sentzi'll' Howard.
~!ie,said she voted for Eddie Perry and not John Ward. She stated
oted for Warren Kinard and not Wilbert Lee Turner. She said
9ted for Ann Nichols and not Tululah Nelson.
!ito, KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I just opened at random 10
,oR¢hese and I have Harrison, McMillan, Harrison, McMillan,
1'1 four of them, some of them crossed out. Some of them voted
, . on, some for McMillan, and they are not tampered with
that have been tampered with.
we .a.re'going to have a chance to hear the other attorneys
,onsa'to this some tilne early in the course of this hearing, if
,going to get into retrying a case that took, evidently, 3
~~rithe jury to find not guilty.
~~SSIONS. Senator, that is correct, but--
iG;ji'AIRMAN. Well, asI understand it, it has been charged
, t he is not fit to be a judge because of the way he handled
l>Ithink he has a right to show that what he did was to
'\'hisduty, whether the jury convicted them or not, and
at you are trying to show here, as I understand it.
;"KENNEDY. Well, the only point is he is talking about
, 9 McMillan, and some of these vote for Harrison, some
an. So if we are going to get into the details ,of submit-
e'Vide,ilbe, I think that we ought to be very precise.
I"sa.ytlOhere; some are for Harrison, some for McMil-
l'e Jiltered and some are not, and I do not know quite
tl'ying to show with this line of inquiry. But I am glad
'emote time listeiling to it.
" AN. Tell him what you are trying to show.
24
Mr. SESSIONS. I just want to point out that they had a slate as to
almost everybody on the ballot, but as to the court of criminal ap-
peals, it had a McMillan and Harrison on it. They were really not
that much concerned about those ballots and those races, and
sometimes that race was changed and sometimes not. .
The pattern was the Billingslea-Kinard race. were the ones the
Turner people, or Albert Turner and Hogue, seemed to be most
committed-- .
The CHAIRMAN. And did you find a pattern of voting in those
races?
Mr. SESSIONS. Qh, yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. In other words, they were all voting that way
where the ballots were changed? .
Senator KENNEDY. Let the record show they all voted for Howell
Heflin, too, and we are delighted with that. if
The CHAIRMAN, Well, he is a wonderful man, but that has got
nothing to do with it here. "
Mr. SESSIONS. He got about 90 percent of the vote. :,
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
Mr. SESSIONS. Everybody, I think, was voting for Senator Heflin.
Senator KENNEDY. That is right.
Senator HEFLIN. Just keep it up. [Laughter.]
Senator BIDEN. I might add, with no changes. [Laughter.]
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not believe there is any change on his.
Mims Shelton, who is 43--
The CHAIRMAN. After this, we will move on to something else. Go
ahead and finish that and we will move on.
He advised he did not observe either Alberf Turner or Earl Ford .
witness his ballot, whose signatures as witnesses are on there. He
said he observed his ballot and stated he did not recall making any
changes.
And there is one name marked out-I believe it is Harrison-and
voted for McMillan in that case. Otherwise, he already voted for
the slate candidates. He had already voted for Sentzer Howard,
John Ward, Wilbert Turner, and Tululah Nelson, rather thaD
Kinard, Billingslea, and so forth.
Cleophus Shelton testified; he is age 38. In his statement to the
FBI, he stated he marked his ballot and sealed it in the envelope.
Shelton stated that the ballot was returned to Perry County by'
Albert Turner.
And he observed his ballot, and I believe he is talking about
Mims or-this is Cleophus Shelton. He observed the ballot; it had,
one name crossed out. It had Eddie Perry's name crossed out.,
He said he did not scratch out or cross out any of the names 0
the ballot, but he did not recall for who he voted for, except he w
positive ·he did not make any changes on the ballot.
The CHAIRMAN. I do not think we need to go into any more.
Let me ask you this now: Are those typical of the matters t
caused.you to prosecute this case?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. And those had been investigated by the FBI?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
25
The CHAIRMAN. And the evidence was brought to you?
The CHAIRMAN. And as district attorney, was it your obligation,
then, when the FBI found this fraud to go forward and prosecute?
... Mr. SESSIONS. It certainly was. It was something we had been re-
quested to do by an official grand jury in that county, too, 2 years
b~fore.
The CHAIRMAN. The official grand jury in the county?
.Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir.
", Th~·CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Sessions-- .
, 'Senator BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, before you go on, and I promise I
will not interrupt you again, but so my colleagues can plan, I in no
way wish to suggest that the chairman curtial his questions.
.,But after the chairman finishes his questioning, could we then
r~v~rt to a 10-minute rule so that my colleagues and yours who--
The
i CHAIRMAN. I think we can do that.
:..• Senator BIIJEN. But you go ahead with yours. You are the chair-
man.
~h~:CHAIRMAN. Well, I have another appointment, a matter
ti:>ming up on the floor. I have got to leave and if you do not mind,
I"JhgughtI would get through and then turn it over to the 10-
IlJ;!nute rule.
····Senator BIDEN. Take your time, but after that, if we could go to a
W:miIlute rule.
•;~.'!;'h"ll CHA!RMAN. Tha,;,k. y o u , . . .
y\)\1r.· Sessions, the orlgmal mformatlOn and the eVidence you re-
¢!i~ved regarding voter fraud in Perry County came to your office
ftl'!Pl, the district attorney whose jurisdiction included Perry
>~~lli'd you tell the committee when the district attorney contact-
jI ~d exactly what transpired at that time?
i.,Sji:S,S,IONS. Essentially, he contacted me on the Frida~-I be-
'cit waS the Thursday prior to the election, and adVised me
l.thll problems. We contacted the Department of Justice and
'(jrized a minimal investigation, a preliminary investigation, in-
.,really just an observance of the post office would be con-
,". '.
'not sure, in fact, that that preliminary investigation would
,~9.11h~llDepartment of Justice approval because it is a prelim-
p. At any rate, we did. The courthouse was observed. The
were listed so that you were able to determine which de-
t,m,!illed which ballot.
r BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, on that point so it does not get
,a.lll.t.t.e.r sent to Mr. Sessions it was suggested by counsel for
.mittell t~at-on this point, I just want to make sure I am
es~ntmg you.
thereafter you and Craig DeSanto, Chief <:If the Election
9rof the Department of Justice, discussed actions to be
pur' office to assist in an investigation of the absentee
L .'
ted, and DeSanto agreed, that your office would applr.
General's Office of the Postal Service for a mail
Ji,Jiseritee ballote which Turner had mailed.
;' g.'about the same thing now here?
26
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. Subsequent to that, I have talked with Mr.
DeSanto. He says he knows we talked about the mail cover. He
does not recollect whether I told him in advance that we wanted to
do that, but he approves it and it was within my authority as a
U.S. attorney and it is just a matter of how the investigation would
be conducted.
Senator BIDEN. Well, just for the record, in a memo, subject,
Albert Turner, to Gerald E. McDowell, Chief of the Public Integrity
Section, from DeSanto, he says, and I quote:
These things were done by Mr. Sessions on his own and without c'onsultation with
the Public Integrity Section.
Is that a different issue?
Mr. SESSIONS. Which things?
Senator BIDEN. These things which are-
Advised during 24 hours he had received' information, evidence from reliable
sources, to the effect that Albert Turner and an associate named, Hogue had collect-
ed several hundred' ballots which they had either fraudulently opened or reviewed
or which they had actually completed themselves.
Based on this informatIon, Sessions requested and obtained visual surveillance of
the Bureau of the Post Office in Marion, AL, where these ballots were supposed to
be mailed for transmission to the county registrar.
This surveillance revealed that both Hogue and Turner appeared as predicted and
that they deposited between them literally hundreds of absentee ballot envelopes.
Apparently, the Bureau took surveillance photographs of the activities of these two
men while they were in the post office.
The envelopes were visually examined by the postal inspector, but were not
opened. They were sent forward to the Elections Board for tabulation. These things
were done by Mr. Sessions o'n his own and without consultation with the Public In-
tegrity Section.
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, that is a surprise to me. I was not that cer·
tain about it myself as to what we had done. My assistant told me
that everything was done after talking to Mr. DeSanto.
And Mr. DeSanto, in my last conversation, indicated that he was
aware of the surveillance of the post office but he did say he did
not think he was aware of the mail cover.
Senator BIDEN. Well, what I would like to do is submit for the
record--
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not have that firm a recollection as to whether
or not-I do not believe I personally talked to him, but my assist·
ant was in charge of that.
Senator BIDEN. Well, when my turn comes, we can talk about the
subpoena, too. I will submit these for the record when it is an ap-
propriate time.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make sure we were
talking about the same thing.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. .
Now, I offer for inclusion in the record a letter from District At·
torney Johnson to U.S. Attorney Sessions, dated September 28,
1984, which states:
DEAR MR. SESSIONS: Thi~ letter is to confirm our telephone conversation of August
31,1984. .
As I told you in that conversation, my office has received several' complaints of
irregularities in regard to the upcoming election on Tuesday, September 4, 1984,
Th(:!se complaints range from improper casting of absentee ballots to possible fraud
and reidentification. ,,'
The most serious allegations concern interference with absentee balloting, inchid"
ing fraudulent receipt and marking of ballots. The large number of absentee ballots
27
re,quested by ~ot!3rs in this' 'oQunty""':""iri excess of 600, with 7,857 registered votets-
. cr.e.a~~sthe_
possibility that fraudulent absentee ballots may make a signifiqantdif-
fetence in the results of the election.
My staff has :Iooked into the -allegations and their reports indicate- a need' fot an
extensive investigation into the voting process in Perry County. My office does not
have anrwhere near the manpower to conduct such a large-scale probe. '
1~d,itlonall)',) feel)t wOllld,be best tllatan independent agency from outside th~
cou.nty conduct the probe"so'as to avoid any P9ssible hint of favoritism or partiality,.
Therefore, please consider this letter to be an 'official, urgent request for all possible
assistanceiri 'conducting this investigation. '
r cannot overemphasize the importance and the urgency of this request,' for with·
out t~ehelp ofYPuv,.agency, my office cannot actually investigate all the .allegations
a:p.(l,liossit>~e.,~amific,atiop.s without.fl ,thorough invlilstigation, however. The results of
t~"~lectionwm'conti~lle.to.be show~red in accusati0J1san~ acrimony.
;My." office staff nas prepared·a repottspecifying the evidence uncovered so· far and
t~es€!:'reports will be,:made available upon request to aid your evaluation of the seri-
ousness of this situation. . ",
.~l~ase contact me with all possible dispatch regarding this ca.se, as time is ,of the
essery,ce.
Now, that was from District Attorney Johnson to you?
Mr. SESSIONS. That is corr.ect. .
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Sessions, there has been an allegation
tha.t the prosecution of the Perry County case was a selective proS,
ecution and. that during Your tenure as U.s. attorney, you have
failed to prosecute other cases of voter fraud.
1;Iow do you respond to thisalleg!\tion?
.J\1r. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, that is not correct. I believe I said
once that we had no other complaints of any significance while I
",as U.S. attorney. In fact, I have checked with the FBI and found
that we had One case in a county which involved eight people, an
allegation of vote-buying, and eight people were interviewed by the
FBI several years ago and they were not able to develop it into a
cA$e.
Those people were white, I understand, almost all of them, if not
aJ:h'ofthem. This is the only other thing that came up. During this
triM,.the defendants were publicly attacking us all over for not
~onducting investigations, but Mr. Hank Sanders, who was a part-
Jiilr"in the law firm that tried the case, testified before the House
committee that also heard testimony on this case.
, ]\,1r. Sanders said "we have never asked for a criminal investiga-
tion," and his State legislative district includes Perry County, but
his)aw firm is involved in campaigns throughout that area.
: The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, did your investigation into the
voter fraud allegations at any time interfere with the voters' right
l!Jyote or any other aspect of the election process?
'Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. All of this took place after the election, so
that it would not have affected the election, except for the surveil-
lallceat the post office the day before.
,·TheCHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there has been an allegation that
YI1\l''Showed--
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I will say I understand that an FBI
agent did go by a campaign headquarters the day before the elec-
.t!bJj',and observed the vehicles that were there.
3'?I1h,isis a.building, not Mr. Turner's house, as I recall. This was
, 'tlj'e'oUilding where the ballots were supposed to have been collect-
ell;
63-867 a - 87 - 2
28
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there has been an allegation that
you showed insensitivity to eldedy voters by busing them to grand
jury proceedings 180 miles away. How do you respond to that alle-
gation?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, that is shocking to me. We had sub-
poenaed, r believe, 20·some-oddwitnesses to come to Mobile. Some
of those witnesses were eldedy. The Sheltons,as r read their
names-they were young, but a number of the other witnesses
were elderly.
They are really not familiar with Mobile. They live closer to
Montgomery and Birmingham. Probably, a lot of them have never
been to Mobile. And my assistant was concerned about how-how
they could find their way to the Federal courthouse, which you
cannot find easily.
And he discussed with a number of people what to do, so it was
decided that a bus would be chartered, or somebody suggested that.
A bus was chartered and it was set up at the Marion town square
and the people were told they could come to Marion and get On the
bus and would be brought to Mobile, and that is what was done
purely for their convenience.
The CHAIllMAN. Mr. Sessions, it has come to the attention of the
committee that certain comments have been attributed to you. Mr.
Sessions, would you tell the committee if any of the following com·
ments were made by you, are they accurate, and in what context
were they made?
"The National Council of Churches, the NAACP, SCLC, and
PUSH are un·American organizations with antitraditional Ameri·
can values."
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, the best r recall, that took place
like this. My former assistant, Thomas Figures, who is black-his
office was right across the hall from mine for 4 years.
r went over and r chatted in his office .and philosophized, r called
it, a number of times, and I was over there regaling about the Na·
tional Council of Churches. I am a United Methodist lind we fund
them and my money goes to them, but r have complalned about
them.
And I was making this point, as I recall this conversation, and r
said, yoU know, when an organization like the National Council of
Churches gets involved in political activities and international rela-
tions that people consider to be un·American, they lose their moral
authority and ability to function, or to speak with authority to the
public because people see them as political.
And r also barreled on and said that that is true; the NAACP
and other civil rights organizations, when they leave the basic dis"
criminatory questions and start getting into matters such as for·
eign policy and things of that nature and other political issues-
and that is probably something I should not have said, but I really
did not mean any harm by it.
I certainly do not think of the National Council of Churches, and
certainly not the NAACP, as being an un.American organization.
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People-
that organization has, without question, done more than probably
any other organization to promote racial progress in the South.
29
I have seen it; I have seen how far we have gone in a little over
20 years, and it has been' remarkable,
The CHAIRMAN. And you attribute that largely to the NAACP,
the, progress made?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, they were obviously one of the major organi-
zations in it, and I respect that organization without--
The CHAIRMAN. Now, here is another: "I thought those guys," reo
ferring to the Klan, "were OK until I learned they smoked pot."
[Laughter.]
Mr. SESSIONS. That was a silly comment, I guess you might say,
that I made. What happened was we were investigating the hang-
ing and death of a young black man named Michael Donald.
Michael Donald had done nothing more than go to the 7-Eleven
store down the street and was walking home, and two klansmen,
Henry Hayes and Tiger Knowles, stopped him, threw him in the
car, drove him across Mobile Bay and out in the woods, brutally
murdered him, hit him, murdered him, cut his throat, brutalized
him.
He fought and wrestled and tried to get away. They brought the
body back and hung it in a tree in Mobile. That was the verl night
that a jury had been hung and failed to return a verdict 0 guilty
in a case charging that a black man had killed a white policeman,
and the Klan was offended, apparently, that there was not a con-
viction of the black man.
So that statement was made, I know, in the presence of Barry
Kowalski, who came down from the Department of Justice Civil
Rights Division to prosecute the case. And my assistant, Thomas
Figures, was the lead person in our office, but I did work on it and
was reading the report and saw that. the Klan had left the meeting
arid gone out and smoked pot, and I thought that was really kind
of, I do not know, bizarre.
,Maybe the joke-1 was trying to think of how to analogize it.
Maybe I was saying I do not like Pol Pot because he wears alligator
shOeS. All of us understood that the Klan is a force Jar hatred and
bigotry and it just could not have meant anything else than that
under those circumstances.
,That is the very thing we were doing at that time was prosecut·
ing that case. I insisted that the case that eventually developed
against one of the klansmen be sent to the .state court and tried
there, despite our desire to be involved in it, because Alabama had
the death penalty or life without parole.
,It was a horrible thing, and it really pains me to think that that
comment-and I understand that Mr. Kowalski was very,upset
that it would be used to suggest I favored the Klan in some way.
The CHAIRMAN. Another statement that is alleged: "Black people
are the children of white people."
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I just-that is not correct. I have
,riot said anything like that.
The CHAIRMAN. You deny that.
Nextis~-
Senator HEFLIN. What was that statement? I did not understand
that.
" The CHAIRMAN. "Black people are the children of white people,"
and your answer was what?
30
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not know what that means or how it could
have been said. It appeared tO,me to be some sort of racial slur, but
I do r<ot know-I did not say that.
The CHAIRMAN. Another is, speaking to a black attorney, "You
ought to be careful as to what you say to white folks,"
Mr. SESSIONS. That is not correct, Mr. Chalrman. I was in the
office with Mr. Figures and we were chatting and a secretary came
in. Some passing comments were made and Mr. Figures made a
cutting comment to her.
I thought that his comment was in bad taste. Mr. Figures-and
he and I talked to this and he has told m.e this himself. He said,
you know, one of the things I get in trouble about is I will make a
joke and people take it seriously, and we had discussed that before.
And I told him at that time, I said, you ought to watch what you
say to folks; that hurt her feelings. And that is the way that went
down.
The CHAIRMAN. "You know the NAACP hates white people; they
are out to get them. That is why they bring these lawsuits, and
the~ are a commie group and a pinko organization as well."
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I do not recall saying anything like
that. I will admit that I am pretty-in my office, in talking to
people that I am associated with, I am loose with my tongue on oc-
caSIOn, and I may have said something similar to that or could be
interpreted to that. "
I do not believe I have ever specifically-it would be inconceiv-,
able that I ever specifically referred to the NAACP as an un.Amer-:., :
iean or commie organization, even kidding. I mean, I may have re- .
ferred to my church, the Methodist Church, as probably a bunch of
pinkos, maybe. But that is an awful thingto say, and it is not true.
The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you this question.
Mr. SESSIONS. All right. 11
The CHAIRMAN. People are people, and all people have equal ':1
rights. Have you intentionally made any slurring remarks aboutl
black people to indicate that they are inferior or anything of the '"
kin~ ~
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. I do not tell racial jokes. I do not do that ~
kind of thing. I do not use racially derogatory terms; I do not be'!
lieve in that. ,f
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, it has also been alleged-- "j
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, you know, as I said, these com- ,~
ments that you could say about commie organization or some· ':I
thing- I may have said something like that in a general way that !
probably was wrong. ~,.
But as to specifically saying these kind of things, I do not believe';·
ant~~db:..':~~:;~k~~i~e:i;~s, it has also been alleged that yout.
have referred to the Voting Rights Act as an intrusive piece of leg· ",
islation, and that blacks and whites could have solved their own .
problems.!
Would ~ou explain to the committee what you meant by those of
remarks, If you made them at all? . ('
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I do believe that the Voting Rights Act is an>
intrusive piece of legislation, but I do not believe-and I have seen.. '
and I am absolutely certain of this, that racial progress could not~
'0'
I 31
hlive been made in the South without the power of the Federal
courts and the Federal Government. .
They would not have worked their problems out by themselves;
there is no question about that. And the judges, and so forth, took
a great deal of abuse, and maybe sometimes they can be criticized
leglilly for exceeding jurisdiction.
,.But. I believe. that the Federal courts, t believe that the Federal
Government, forced progress-- . ,
The CHAIRMAN. The effect of what you are saying, then, is it may
be intrusive, but it got good results. You feei it got good results?
,.. Mr.SE~sIONS. Yes; that is correct.
The. CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, it has been suggested that you
have found fault with requests to institute civil rights actions
ag~nst candidates for vote dilution. How do you respond to this al-
legation?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I became U.S. attorney almost the
day, or within a few weeks of a big lawsuit being filed against the
city of Mobile challenging its large form of government and they
were fighting over vote dilution, vote dilution being the situation in
which you have an at-large election, primarily, and blacks are
unable to win a spot on a council; say, a city or county council.
And the blacks may have 45, 48, 49 percent of the vote, but they
cannot get enough to elect even One of the three, four, or five mem-
bers of the governing board. And the Department of Justice was in-
. tervening, and intervened in a number of those cases and would
I'Ve lawsuits suing whole counties and naming all the public offi-
cilils,and that kind of thing.
'. And I questioned a number of the lawyers who would come down
lind seek my signature on the documents to file them, and the
wi~dom of it. But, in truth, as I have seen more of those cases-I
§ighell.one a few weeks ago in a county, in a city in my district, in
.~1$~, n9rtllern part of the aistrict. The black people had 49 percent
.oIo'~he vote in that city. They had never elected a councilman or a
~lti'YT~:~I was
'~rP;nent.
h~~:~;s1r:g~cl~:eliub~~~gsh~~i~~l ~f~h~f~J: ~og~~:
provided Ii good memorandum of law and I looked
!i~Jtllnd it appeared to me to be justified, and I was pleased to sign
'"i~lllj;t. .
;;;;:ltis a serious thing, however, for the Federal Government to
cp;ne in and to sue a county and say we are going to change the
Jprm. of government that you have been living with for 20 years.
.nd under the rules of civil procedure, a person who signs his
, .t9a,Pleading best be sure that he is in conformity with it
ejieve~ in it or he is not authorized to sign it.
;,CHA!RMAN. Mr. Sessions, during your tenure as U.S. attor-
"",t. i"alleged that you took voting cases away, as well as civil
. cases, frqm Mr. Thomas Figures, ail assistant U.S. attorney
f.ce,beclluse be was black.
.4.ple,ase explain to the committee the circumstances
~hisllllegation? . '
l1~... Mr..Chairman, when I became U.S. attorney, Mr.
~$"llJ!.ndling all, or at least most of the civil rights cases. I
at distinctly, and t do not think he would dispute it, that I
32
talked to him: called him into my office and told him, Thomas, I
want you to continue to handle civil rights, and these are almoat
my exact words to him.
I told him that I did not want there to be any change in the en-
forcement of civil rights law. I said I do not knoW much about
those laws; I never handled them when I was an assistant. I want
you to do that: I want you to keep me posted on anything that we
might do in the area of civil rights that is wrong or shortsighted.
Let me know so I can discuss it and correct it.
I told him I might not agree with him, but I wanted him to let
me know. I wanted him to handle those cases and to work them
and to be my eyes and ears in that area. My full intent was that he
would handle everyone of those cases.
I have found a file of those cases, and for the last 3 years about
90 of those cases were presented to my office and only 10 of those
did not go to Mr. Figures. However, I joke about it: the FBI assigns
cases sometimes in our office.
Every case that came to my office that I received, I referred to
Mr.. Fi!(Ures. There were about 10 that did not go to him. That
upset him, and I saw why it did, and he talked to me about it.
I went to the FBI agent who handles primarily civil rights cases,
and to his supervisor, and told them that every civil rights case
was to go to Mr. Figures. Now, basically, what happens is when a
report of a civil rights case is prepared, the agent goes out to inves-
tigate.
He will get a complaint; we may not even know about it. He will
get the complaint and he will go out and conduct an investigation.
He, not being a lawyer, wants to know if he has done enough, so he
will come in and talk to one of our assistants.
And almost invariably until, I guess, 1984, ther were going to .,
Mr. Figures, and he would tell them no further Investigation re-j
9-uired. And then the file would be sent to the Department of Jus-
hce Civil Rights Division, and every report is sent there.
We do not have the power to decline a civil rights case: that has
to be done in the Department of Justice. But I guess the point I am
making is that, on occasions, if Mr. Figures was not there, or for
any other reason, an agent might go to another attorney in my
office and talk to them about the case, and they would say no fur-
ther investigation required.
The CHAIRMAN. I think the essence of it is did you deprive him
because he was black from handling civil rights cases?
Mr. SESSIONS. No. As a matter of fact, I assigned them to him.
When the report would then come down, it would name the assist-
ant U.S. attorney who had originally commented on the case, and
if it was someone other than Mr. Figures, and it said no further
investigation required-invariably, in every case, if that happened,
I would still refer the report to Mr. Figures and tell him that he
was the one to read the final report and to review it.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there have been allegations that
your office failed to properly investigate two suicides which oc-
curred at local jails and a shooting into a house which had been
recently viewed by a prospective buyer who was black because
there was not sufficient evidence to re':!uest an investigation.
How do you respond to these allegatIOns?
33
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr.. Chairman, that is not correct. There was a
case involving a suicide of a white man in a jail north of Mobile. It
was mentioned in the newspaper, and Dr, Gilliard, who is a dentist
and prominent member of the school board in Mobile, and head of
the. local NAACP-he contacted, I believe, the FBI or maybe Mr.
Figures and asked for an investigation.
A complete investigation, I believe, was done.
Senator BIDEN. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Would you let us
know who is making these allegations? I have not heard these alle-
gations before. Who are the ones that are making these allegations,
the last couple--
The CHAIRMAN. They were sent to the committee by various
people.
Senator BIDEN. I see.
The CHAIRMAN. And I felt we should inquire.
Senator BIDEN. No, no; I am not suggesting you should ·not. I am
.not making those allegations. I do not know who--
The CHAIRMAN. I felt we should inquire about it, since the com-
plaint was made.
Senator BIDEN. Yes, good. I just wondered who was doing it.
Mr. SESSIONS. In that case-and this was where we had a prob-
lem, Mr. Figures and I did. He Was not happy that the agents were
talking to other people before they talked to him. He felt it was
.unfair for him to have to read a report that another assistant had
already commented on.
At· any rate, we had that discussion, I believe, about that case
and I agreed to handle it. We had evidence, and the report indicat-
ed that this white man who hung himself, that he had called his
,girlfriend that day and indicated he was going to end it all. There
Was no basis for further investigation.
The other case involved a hanging in Baldwin County. A black
'; 'man hung himself. A fireman who was in the jail at that time
heard it; ran back there, heard a noise, and went back there and
'saw him and tried to get him out, but it was too late.
. That case was the same situation. Mr. Figures and I talked about
it and I reviewed that and talked with the Department of Justice
, about it, the Civil Rights Division. They reviewed it. Further inves-
'i,tigation .was required, which I concurred in; and that case was
X' 1:"eventually declined.
'·'i::'I'·heCHAIRMAN.. Now, what about the shooting into a house
:'whichhad been recently viewed by a prospective black purchaser?
,,'.. Mr. SESSIONS. That was an interesting case, and I thought that
t. '59..a,sewas aggravated, in a way-not in a way; I thought that was a
t. ::':setious case, a shooting in a house. What happened was in the
, .·jl:1ivn of Evergreen, a black policeman had been shown a house in a
eli.. . .j::'l\'hJteneighborhood by a white real estate agent.
C,' That was observed, apparently, by the neighbors and the next
.night, or shortly thereafter, buckshot was fired through the doors
." j:il.nd.through the windows, and substantially damaged the house.
,A;.i\P.d.the real estate agent got a threatening call about saying you
'\":dpnqt show blacks houses in this neighborhood.
y.;-:'·TheFBI did a real fine investigation of that case, and brought
;)'~tner.e.sults in and the agent presented it to a fairly new assistant
~';;tt:;,> •.. ,
34
in my office at that time, Gloria Bedwell, and she thought that it
did not merit further prosecution;
That was before an official report was prepared. The report came
in, oh, maybe 2 or 3 weeks later, or whenever. And it came across
my desk and I read it and I thought that I could discern from the
report who I believed it was that fired the shots.
I also, as a professional, realized there was very little hope that
you could prove it, but I was concerned about it. I sent it to Mr.
Figures, as I recall, and we may have even talked about it.
:aut I ended up talking with the agent personally, and I have
talked with the lawyers in the Department of Justice about it per-
sonally. I believe it has been declined now, but I expressed my con-
cerns about it because I think that was a particularly aggravated
crime.
I believe a person has the right to live where he wants to live,
and I do not care what color he is. And that is a realistic problem
in a community like this town. There is a heavy minority of blacks
in that town, and if that kind of thing is allowed to go on uninves-
tigated, it could deny people the right to live where they desire.
Senator BIDEN. Did you say that at the time?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator :alDEN. So you recommended pursuing the case?
Mr. SESSIONS. We discussed it seriously. I talked with the agent
who handled it. What else could be done? I volunteered to the
lawyer at the Department of Justice to subpoena everybody in the
neighborhood, Normally, they come down and conduct the grand
jury in a civil rights case and they have to make difficult decisions
on whether we really have a chance of making this case. Is it
worth a week in Alabama on this case when I Can make a more
important one over here?
I said, well, I will conduct it, if you want me to. But we agreed
that there was very little likelihood that anything could shake out
ofit.
Senator :alDEN. I am trying to get to the bottom line. When it
was all done, before you closed the folder did you say we should
pursue this case or we should not pursue this case?
Mr. SESSIONS. I agreed with Mr. LeFevre in the Department of
Justice-I believe it was Mr. LeFevre-that the case should not go
forward.
The CHAIRMAN. You did not have enough evidence to go forward?
Mr. SESSIONS. There was no evidence. Everybody said they did ;
not see it. There was somebody there that I had a gut feeling might ',Ill",':
have done it. It would have been an awful long shot to call in all ~
these neighbors who had denied it in their statements already to
try to see if they would change their testimony just because they
were under oath, and I doubt that they saw it. It was done in the
middle of the night, I think, and probably nobody saw it. '.~
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there have been some concerns re-
garding the hiring practices of your offi"".- Would you tell the com-
mittee what procedures and criteria you "'use in determining who
will be hired by your office?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, Our office is a very nigh quality law office
and we need as good people as the best law firms in town, and so
35
that is what we seek. As far as clerical employees go, we hire from
the Federal Register ollly: We are requiredto hire in that fashion.
And as far as attorneys, I hire those on an individual basis, and
hire the' best people, I think, available for the job.
The CHAIRMAN. You follow the Federal Register for the clerical
'Weople and use your judgment to hire competent attorneys.
';:!'nt: SESSIONS. Yes, sit. ' ,
',The Ca",iaMAN. Is that the answer? '
"'M'" SESSIONS. That is correCt. '
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, there has been an allegation that
you stated that a prominent Civil rights attorney was a disgrace to
his race. How do you respond to this allegation? • .
·'Nrr. SESSIONS, I understand that that statement has been made,
and I recaU a conversation in which that was mentioned and I may
have~I believe the. statement was I had said maybe he is, a.nd that
isreally disturbing to me.
':1 suppose-I do not know why I would have said that, and I cer-
tlfinly do not belleve that. The lawyer in question is one of the
tine.st lawyers in the country. I have defended him,
,1, have heard people say he has gotten some' fees, hundreds-of-
t~ollsands-of'dollar fees, or maybe even nearly $1 million in' one,
f6,r prolonged litigation that he ,and his firm had been involved in,
ap,d they won and they get this money. "
;;~ ,:,I\.nd I have defended him. I said he was representing those cases
II a(a time when he did not get paid anything. And he is a fine-one
otthe best lawyers in the country, and it really pains me to think
, that people would~that I would be quoted as saying that 'and I do
"r n:Q~"Jmow how I could have said it.
'v,;!i'heCHAIRMAN. You did not say it?
~, 2>s:Mr;SEsStoNS. I will not say that. The person who said that I said,
.;& , ",*Il11; maybe he is," is a person I respect and--
:;,;!,4e'CHAIRMAN. Well, did you mean a serious charge against him
;1 tQ',{!)..,teffect Or a spirit of levity, or what was it?
·f '!'!t\1T;'SESSIONS. I cannot recall. As I recall it, I was in the library.
1" Fl:e came in and mentioned something like that and it was brief
"!"liild'r-...
•c,l)i~eCHAIRMAN. Well, did you say that against him, if you did say
(, it, because he was a civil rights lawyer, or somebody made the
".,";' t\\llla,rk. and you chimed in and you would have made it anyway
. wh~ther he was a civil rights lawyer or not? .
. Nrr. SESSIONS, I did not initiate it, According to what he says, he
njentioned it and I made some comment like, maybe it is-maybe
he is. And I do not know why I would say that.
.·T!).e CHAIRMAN. Were you trying to please him, whoever it was?
·,.:Mr. SESSIONS. No. I think he was a lawyer that would be very
impressed with this lawyer, and I certainly would not have done
tlliif:.;'
..::':1.'he CH.AIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, it has been alleged that the FBI,
~r)g,er your supervision, developed a hit list of prominent Demo-
ciMkpoljticians and businessmen in an effort to develop evidence
;,~i:ii.~s,tthese individuals for ,receh:,ing illegal payoffs. . .
li':)yQ\iI,dyou t,ell the commIttee If t~ere was su~h a ~It I.Ist, and
~hatare the cIrcumstances surroundmg the FBI mvestIgatIon that
."'liil1d lead to such an allegation?
36
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, that arose from what is now an on·
going criminal investigation. It was one of the most amazing things
I have ever seen in .my practice of law--
The CHAIRMAN. You need not disclose llny ongoing information
of any cases.
Mr. SESSIONS. All right,sir. This was all public. About, oh, less
than a month ago, I guess-about a month ago, we had conducted
lln investigation and an individual llnd his lllwyer called II press
conference and his client stated himself that he had participated in
the extortion of a Mobile businessman.
They attacked me; they attacked the Mobile County district at·
torney, who is a Democrat. They stated .that the money that he had
extorted from this businessman, who was cooperating first with the
district attorney, and later the FBI got into it-that the money
that was extorted from him by this man was supposed'to go to a
black county commissioner, and that the reaSOn I wanted to indict
this man who called the press conference WllS because I was afraid
to indict the black county commissioner because they would accuse
me of racism and I would be embarrassed when I came up here to
the committee. It was a tremendous shock.
That investigation, by the way, is under the. supervision of one of
.the finest assistant U.S. attorneys in the country, who clerked for
the chief judge of the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals, Jud~e
John Godbold; is the granddaughter of a judge on the old fifth clr·
cuit.
And I was aware of this investigation; she was supervising it.
And I have-after this came out-gone to the agents and I asked .1
them, did you all say anything like that, in just llbout thllt tone of
voice. And they hllve fllltly denied thllt, llnd I know each one of
those ll~ents, or two FBI's and one Stllte investiglltor who had 28
yellrS With the FBI.
The Stllte investiglltor has sent up lln affidllvit. flatly denying
that, llnd they said only one nllme--
The CHAIRMAN. Do you wllnt to relld thllt from the Stllte investi-
glltor?
Mr. SESSIONS. All right, sir. In pertinent part, he said they went
to Mr. Owens' residence. As Mr. Owens stilted in his press confer·
ence, he hlld been tllpe recorded.
They went to his residence, played him the tape recording llnd
sllid, OK, we wllnt you now to approllch these people and wellr II
recorder like this businessmlln did llnd tllik to them, the people- ~
let me relld you whllt Mr. McFadden sllid.
He sllyS:
I went to Gurney Owens' residence to solicit his cooperation and obtain earrobe- "i"
rating evidence against the county commissioner for whom he claimed to have de·
manded and accepted payments. At no time did we ask him to approach any person .,;
other than the county commissioner, nor did we suggest or request that he do any,~,!'
thing i m p r o p e r . , .
No names were mentioned to him other than the name of the county commission-
er in question. :'.,','!':
He says, "1 am thoroughly fllmilillr with this ongoing joint politi:;'?,
clll corruption investiglltion," llnd it was stllrted by, llS 1 SIlY, thil,;.
Democratic district llttorney in Mobile and the FBI merely joine4)C'
~it. . ~
37
He says there Were no hit lists or political targets.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, I have a letter here, and I am about
through. This letter Is addressed to me from Kenneth p, Bergquist,
Department of Justice,. Office of Legislative and Intergovernmental
Plffairs. .
.:";. ]):EARMlt; C~AIRMAN: At the request of youf staff, I have undertaken ,an inq.uiry
m:to an allegatIon made by 8'Mr. Gurney Owens that he was presented WIth a hst of
2£i individuals by a Federal Bureau of Investigation agent in Mobile, Alabama, and
coerped into entrapping ~.11ch individuals;
This allegation is utterly without foundation and it is an affront to the integrity
~f the FBI and its agei:1ts in Mobile, Alabama. I have been in touch with Mr. Joseph
Mahoney, II; the supervisory special agent of the FBI field office in Mobile, Ala·
b~.a.· Mr. Mahoney has supervisory .responsibility for the Gurney Owens case, and
informs me that the allegations made against .the FBI are baseless.
Mr, Mahoney also informs me that the special agent in char~e of the Mobile
C!ffice, Mr. Carroll Touchey, has publicly denied Mr, Gurney Owens. allegations.
" Now, Mr. Sessions, I think that completes my inquiry. I have had
our investigators here, headed by Mr. Duke Short, to investigate
this matter carefully. Regardless of which party I belong to, it is
my duty to try to get the facts and the truth in a caSe.
We have irwestigated thoroughly and gone into this matter from
every angle, and the investigators have concluded that you are well
qualified for this position. I think the record shows that you are.
You have practiced law; you have been assistant district attor-
hey; you have been district attorney. You have made a good record,
and the investigation reveals that you did nothing in connection
~th this investigation or fraud except what you should have done.
It was your duty as district attorney to investigate fraud~fraud
against whites, fraud against blacks. The law does not acknowledge
any COlor. The only reason for having the courthouse is to do jus-
tice, and if it does injustice to blacks or whites or anybody else,
then there is no use to have a courthouse.
';'.'fhat investigation was made and they feel that you did your
duty in investigating these fraud Cases. You admit you made some
statements here, maybe, that probably were lacking in wisdom. But
·011' the dther hand, I do not consider those sufficient to disqualify
iYd\ltobe a Federal judge.
So from our investigation and what I found out, I expect to sup-
port your nomination.
,:i, lha"e another matter now I have got to get to the fioor on, and I
Wish to apologize to these other members here for not stopping
'sooner, but I felt it my duty, since we have gone into this matter
thoroughly and I wanted every facet examined, to present this to
,the"cornmittee.
"'iNdW I will ask Admiral Denton if he will take the chair and call
'd~"tlieable and distinguished ranking member, Senator Biden.
"~~e!rator BlDEN. Before you leave, Mr. Chairman, so we can set
W~L'rule here, I feel that since you have been here over 30 years
,!~\ili!are chairman of the committee, if you want to take 1 V. hours
flj'lfd,Us to take 10 minutes, that is fair, but let us set a 10-minute
;',!~(j,l~ndw befOre you leave.
s CHAIRMAN. Well, I just said we will take 10 minutes apiece
noW On.
enator BIDEN. Good, OK, great. That is all I need. Thank you,
hairman.
38
The CHAIRMAN. There is only one on this side and there are four
over here, so you will get four times the time. ~-
Senator BIDEN. We might catch up then. [Laughter.]
Mr. Chairman--
The CHAIRMAN. I am not sure you will. [Laughter.]
Senator BIDEN. Mr. Sessions, let me state to you and to my col-
leagues the context in which I view this hearing. A, it is a hearing,
not a trial. B, the person whose competency is being decided upon
is not the State of Alabama; it is not the Senator from Alabama; it
is not the President of the United States. It is you.
I find, as a person who lives in a border State, that there is as
much prejudice in the North as I have found in the South. I do not
think the State of Alabama is on trial here, as has been at least
potentially suggested.
Clearly, not in this hearing room, the State of Alabama-it may
be on trial in some newspapers in Alabama, but it is not on trial
here, or the question of the hearing. My distinguished colleague
from the State of Alabama, Senator Denton, is clearly, as it relates
to this committee, not-this has nothing to do with Admiral
Denton, as far as this committee is concerned.
And lastly, it clearly has nothing to do with the President of the
United States of America, other than it goes to the question of
whether or not his judgment was sound and he made a sound rec-
ommendation. You are the recommendation; you are here, and I
would like to begin my questioning.
There is a lot of territory to cover and I will be back at this on
several occasions because, like the chairman, I have at least 1 Vz to
2 hours' worth of questions, but I will-I do not want to hold my
colleagues up-give everybody a chance and we can keep rotating
this.
But let me suggest to you that you made a comment at one point
when the chairman asked you a question on whether or not you
had made a particular statement. You said, that is disturbing to
me.
I hope you understand why some of the assertions that have
been made under oath by Justice Department employees are also
disturbing to us, at least disturbing to this Senator.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand.
Senator BIDEN. What I would like to start with is not, to try to
put this in focus at least for me-one more comment. It is true that
part of the investigative team of this body, of this committee, has
reached the conclusion that, in fact, you are well qualified.
It is a very qualified man who did the investigation, Mr. Duke
Short, and other majority staff members. But there was another in-
vestigation, a simultaneous investigation hand in hand, that has
not reached that conclusion. It has not reached a fmal conclusion
until your testimony is finished whether or not you are qualified,
but it has clearly not reached the conclusion that you are qualified
to be on the bench, and that was the investigation done by the
chief minority counsel investigator, Reggie Govan, whom you have
spoken to a number of times.
So, again, for the record, I do not want people to think that there
is one investigative team that has a uniform point of view on this
subject. Part of the investigative team of this committee apparently
39
has reached a judgment. The other part-the jury is still out, as
they say in our business.
Now, let me get to my questions in the 7 or 8 minutes that 1
have left, and 1 would like to go through the questions about these
comments which, to some in the audience, may be-we may be nit-
picking as to whether or not you used a phrase which will come up
here and again; you used the word "nigger," or whether or not you
used the word-suggested that the NAACP was less than reputa-
ble, or any of these questions that have been raised or will be
raised again.
Keep in mind that what we are, in fact, required to look at is not
merely whether or not you meant what you said, but whether or
not you said them. We have a long history in this country and in
the recent past, just to emphasize the point, of Mr. Earl Butz and
Mr. James Watt who, at least in part, felt they should resign be-
cause of inappropriate comments, whether they meant them or not.
The jokes that Mr. Watt made about people or the jokes that Mr.
Butz made, assuming they made them-and 1 believe they did,
based on their own assertions~do not go merely to whether or not
they meant them, whether or not they believed it, but whether or
Iiot it was appropriate.
You are before this committee for the single most sacred job that
could be entrusted to anyone in this Republic, and that is to be a
U.S. Federal judge. And so not only whether you meant something,
bllt the appearance and the propriety, your judgment, your maturi-
ty, and your temperament, all are at work here. That is why these
:'c'~h1.ments are of consequence.
'Now, when you indicated that you mentioned to Barry Kowalski,
a Civil Rights Division attorney from Washington who spearheaded
"the prosecution of the klansman hanging of a black man, the
report of the klansman smoking marijuana, which you said you
read in the presence of-I understand at that moment when you
made the statement that was referenced before, Mr. Kowalski and
'youtassistant, Mr. Figures, was also in the room. Mr. Figures is a
,,'blackl'nan, is he not?
t 'Yh Mr, SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. Yes; and the statement that you were allegedly to
I,:: !nil",e said was "those bastards; 'I used to think they were OK, but
[;:. "lhe'yarepot smokers." Now, 1 could see how someone could say
,~:' th!i'fhumorously.
That does not mean you are defending the Klan, but do you not
l'<think,it Was insensitive to say that in front of a black man, after a
'F black man had just been brutally beaten and hung? Do you not
11i '''\)Mifil<lh"t was insensitive, with a black man sitting there, to say
tL t.i1.;{t?
"'''''',''Mr, SIlSSIONS. Senator, my impression of the situation was that it
~C was so ludicrous that anybody would think that it was supporting
I,'j; ,11I!I,,;~1:~rat¥thBathewWoullldlnott be of£te~tded btyhit. H b t'f
,"'oeI)i! or ,IDEN. e, erne pu I ano er way. ow a ou I we
~,~'.'};~re'slttingat a cocktail party, you being a loyal son of Alabama,
I""""""",, "-
~~ 'ah'g) sat there and said, you know, all those-you know, someone
.l' sald'something and 1 said, gee, 1 used to think they were all right; 1
000'''',"=- .~Ob""".
40
Would you sit there and go ha, ha, ha, that is a funny thing? Are
you not tired of hearing that?
Mr, SESSIONS, Yes; but I am not sure I would vote against you if
you were nominated for a Federal judge based on that. [Laughter.]
Senator BIDEN, Would you be offended?
Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, I probably would say, well, you yankees are all
the same.
Senator BIDEN. OK.
Mr. SESSIONS, It was something in a familial relationship that
could have led-I would not have been offended if he had said, why
are you making such a stupid statement, but he did not.
Senator BIDEN. Well, you know, it seems to me that there is kind
of an emerging pattern of those kind of statements, If that was the
only thing you said, I would not vote against you,
Let us move on to the next one.
Mr, SESSIONS. I understand everything that I have said is-I may
not-go ahead.
Senator BIDEN, Let us move on to the next one, In November
1981, a guy named Dan Wiley, a former Democratic Mobile County
commissioner who defeated Colonel Carter by eight votes-a man
whose campaign you had run-you got into a challenge of the elec-
tion in the State and Federal courts on the basis of absentee ballot
fraud, not as a U.S. attorney but as counsel for the defeated candi-
date,
It is suggested that you stated to Mr. Wiley at the conclusion of a
r.articularly contentious hearing back in 1981, "Do not worry," or
'do not be too happy"-he could not remember the precise i:
phrase-"John," meaning Archer, "will be watching you and the
nigger," referring to the only black commissioner in Mobile,
Did you make a statement like that or that precise statement?
Mr. SESSIONS. Senator, I did not. That is an absolute false state-
ment,
Senator BIDEN, All right, let us move on to the next one.
Mr. SESSIONS, Mr. Wiley-are you going to talk about-he at-
tacked me publicly at that time and said that I had met at Mr, Ar-
cher's house and had conspired to get him after I became U.s, at-
torney,
Senator BIDEN, Well, I mean, you can talk about that if you
want. I am just asking the questions, like the chairman raised
them.
Mr, SESSIONS. I understand.
Senator BIDEN, They are statements made to US, and you are de-
nying--
Mr, SESSIONS. I want to point out that it is not true, and that was
not true. I had never been to Mr. Archer's house,
Senator BIDEN. This has nothing to do with the house, but at any
rate, yesterday I asked counsel to--
Mr. SESSIONS. You know, Senator Biden, this is the first I ever
heard that, I think; I am sure it is, That would be curious because I
do not believe at that time-that I would get the nigger? Is that
the statement?
Senator BIDEN, That is the quote.
Mr, SESSIONS. Presumably--
41
·Senator BtDEN. I 'accept your statement, I mean, you know, you
said no.
Mr. SESSIONS. My point is there was not a black county commis-
sioner at that time. The black was only elected later. I do not know
what that statement-where it came from.
.•.. ,Senator BIDEN. OK. My time is up. Let me just end by suggesting
to you that I want to come back to a number of the statements
made, and then move on to the voting fraud questions, and then on
to the hiring practices.
.,But to keep with my own request for the 10-minute rule, I will
cease at this moment.
Senator DENTON [presiding]. It would be my turn, but in defer-
ence to the fact that the chairman did take a long amount of time
and trying to even that up, I would defer to Senator Metzenbaum.
Senator METZENBAUM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sessions, when did you know you were first a candidate to be
.a judicial nominee?
Mr. SESSIONS. I would say it would be in the spring of 1985.
Senator METZENBAUM. Spring of 1985?
Mr. S~SSIONS. It was a pretty long time before it ever got to the
pbhlt of a nomination and--
Senator METZENBAUM. Between August of--
Mr. SESSIONS. Or at least the nomination came fairly quickly.
Senator METZENBAUM. When did you become U.S. attorney?
Mr. SESSIONS. August 1981.
Senator METZENBAUM. Between that date and the time that you
knew you were going to be nominated, how many people did you
'hire while you were U.S. attorney, and how many of them were
,,)?!Ejpk?
, ',' I\1r.f;lEssIONS. I believe the answer to that is none.
Senator METZENBAUM. None?
" Mr. SESSIONS. And how many I hired, I am not real sure; maybe
"J.1-?,15.
".Senator METZENBAUM. You hired 12 to 15 people, no blacks?
","'Mr. SESSIONS. Well, it would not have been 12-about 12, yes.
f;lenator METZENBAUM. Did you interview some blacks for attor-
,nm' positions or for nonattorney positions?
/'~"Mr. SESSIONS. Yes; we interviewed blacks for nonattorney posi-
~ions, and I have interviewed a black for an attorney position.
.'", Senator METZENBAUM. And you did not hire him?
.,,' !\!Ir.SEssIONS. Did not hire him.
);j;; Senator METZENBAUM. Pardon?
Mr" SESSIONS. Did not hire him. You are talking now before the
~"Spril1g, before I was mentioned for the judgeship position?
',,"Senator METZENBAUM. Yes.
"",)\:Ir.SESSIONS. Yes.
t',,',Senator METZENBAUM. Did you hire some after you knew you
,t:,~e;re:going to be a nominee?
"-'Mr. SESSIONS. We hired two black clerical people after that.
,,,,,,,··SensJor METZENBAUM. Was there some causal relationship? Did
'if/occur to you that that might be a question that would come up at
shearing?
,SESSIONS. I have for some time felt that we needed to do a
:I$t'li'erjob about hiring blacks, Senator Metzenbaum. It looked bad
42
to me. Let us take the two areas, and they are real distinct-the
clerical people and the lawyers.
I feel like that I probably have been-I can plead guilty to not
being enough affirmatively oriented with tha attorneys. But let us
talk about the clerical people. Our clerical people are hired from a
list from the Office of Personnel Management, and they send the
names down.
The people are tested, and they were interviewed and selections
were made at that time. We have never passed over a black on a
list for a white candidate below a black, a.nd I do not really recall
having a black on the list that qualified. .
We have to hire from the top three names sent from OPM; they
come out of Birmingham. I specifically called OPM myself a couple
of years ago and asked why we were not getting qualified blacks on
the list. .
My administrative officer has talked about it, too.
Senator METZENBAUM. As a matter of fact, you did not hire any
blacks until June 1985 and September 1985. Is that not when
you--
Mr. SESSIONS. I would not say the month, but that is about right.
The first black that we hired, Senator, had applied as a career em-
ployee. She was with the IRS and she applied as a career transfer,
and we heard good things about her and we hired her. And I am
not even sure we saw a list at that time.
Senator METZENBAUM. Let me ask you a question.
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir.
Senator METZENBAUM. You seem to be an honest man. You do
not hire any blacks until you knew you are going to be a nominee.
You refer to the NAACP and the ACLU, which are bringing the
civil rights cases in your area, as being pinko or un-American, or
words to that effect.
You bring some cases; you prosecute some blacks for vote fraud;
you lose.
You are a black person. Would you like to submit a case to Judge,
Sessions in the U.S. district court, if you are confirmed, or would·
you not feel that you could not get justice from that judge?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, they certainly can, Senator, and they would
get justice. ..
Senator METZENBAUM. That is not my question; that is not my
question. I am not saying to you whether you think they can. I am
asking you now about the litigant, about that person who is in th
courtroom.
Knowing your background, knowing what you have said about
what did you say about a white lawyer who brought a case? "I ha
mentioned to him that I had, in fact, heard that one of the jud
had referred to one of the white lawyers for the plaintiffs as bei
a disgrace to his race for doing it. I said I did not know whether
was true, but, you know, I had heard that that was said." /
'lAnd what was Mr. Sessions ' response?" He said, "well, may,.,
he is."
Now, my question to you is not whether you are a racist or
whether you feel that strongly about the NAACP or the AC
that has brought civil rights cases. My question to you is, C
43
any black person come into your court and feel that they had a
,~Il'!J1ee ofgetting justice before you?
, , Mr. SESSIONS. You make them feel they are going to get justice
by treating them with respect.
, B~nator METZENBAUM. You can treat somebody with all the reo
spect in the world and be polite. We, have got some people that I
have seen around Washington who are extremely polite, but that
does not mean that I would want to submit a case to them having
,41 do with a black person or any other member of a minority
,~\lP!. and that is the issue.
i", The issue before us is not whether you will mete out justice
,f!tjrly; it is whether those people who come before you have a right
-'to ,pelieve that they are going to be able to get justice.
, B~ed upon your record, I tell you frankly I have difficulty. I do
't\QtlplQw you; I have never met you. I have never known much
','ii1\o,ut you at all except what I read about you.
,'>1 know that black people are here very much concerned about
your confirmation and indicating their opposition. So I ask you, as
aJair·minded person, would you not, as a black person, be can·
:'ce(ned about appearing before Judge Sessions?
Mr. SESSIONS. The thing that disturbs me about your question is
Whl\t if-and I think the record will bear this out, I handled the
hiring of employees like you would have handled the hiring of em·
• ;ipj9~~es, and was boun~ by the ~ist send out bl;' OPM.
,.:••,¥,d I ,llope that thIs commIttee could brmg that out so black
'people would not feel it was a deliberate thing. The second employ·
,;~~;t~at W8.li hired came out ~>n the list, too, in the top three, a~d
.llY'i¥! :ac~ually. No. 1 an~ we. hIred her. There was never another m-
i,,~~~c~m whICh that sItuation happened. .
':",&enator METZENBAUM. Now, you are saYIng to us that between
,;4.l!g)lst 1981 and June 1985, no black appeared on the list. You get
•advised-when did you tell me, some time in 1985? When was it?
'disl,youlearn you were--
i, 'SESSIONS. I just, would--
': enatOr METZENBAUM. When would you have Iearned--
FMr. SESSIONS, I would think It was in the spring of 1985.
"$'enator METZENBAUM. Spring of 1985. All of a sudden, 2 months
" ; a black shows up on the list and you hire them, and then 3
tlls after that another black shows up, What concerns me is
;' happened earlier. Why did you not get blacks on the list?
ilW.d.:ypunot ask about it?
',{SESSIONS. Senator, I really want you to know that I do not
,hoW the list is prepared in Birmingham. It is prepared off a
puter list. I do not know the people there. They send the list
.and we are required to hire off that list, and it is pure chance
• shoW.ed, I assume,
'·METZENBAUM. But as the U.S. attorney, you could name
')'!1'.~is,tant U.S. attorneys, could you not?
(;n'l~.¥~s.
,ETZENBAUM. And you did not name one black, did you?
~IONS. I did not; I did not hire a black as assistant U.S.
'tlOW, I can talk about how I made those decisions on the
. ,eQY one.
44
Senator METZllNBAUM. How did you make the decision not to
hire any blacks? Were there not any capable black young attorneys
around or older attorneys that you could have asked to join your
staff?
Mr. SESSIONS. I am not sure that there are-I believed I hired the
best people for those positions.
Senator METZENBAVM. That is not my question.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand that
Senator METZENBAUM. Were there not any'--
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not know of any that have made application to
my office that would meet the qualifications of the people I hired.
Senator METZENBAUM. Did you have some black attorneys who
made application to your office? , , '"
Mr. SESSIONS. The only-there is one that I interviewed; he had
moved to Mobile from Birmingham. At that time, we were not
hiring and I did not, of course, hire him then. I contacted him, I
believe, after Mr. Figures resigned and called him back for a fur-
ther, indepthinterview.
I have a stack of resumes like this that come out of iaw schools
from all over the country, from, you know, the fine law schools. I
was asked did any of those-were any of those blacks.
They invariably do not say their race, but occasionally you would
,see something like an Afro-AmerIcan organization that they were a
member of and you could suppose that. I do not believe any of
those were anything other than law school graduates, and I have
not hired a law school graduate.
In out area, the U.S. attorney salaries are good and the law-
yers-you can hire somebody who has proven themself in the field,
in the practice. I like them young and enthusiastic, but we have
never hired anybody that did not have some experience. ,
And I do not recall a black attorney applying from our area who;,
had any experience; there were none that did that.
Senator METZENBAUM. My time is expired, Mr. Chairman.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Senator Metzenbaum.
Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. When you took over as U.S. attorney,
would have been, when, 1981?
Mr. SESSIONS. August 1981.
Senator HEFLIN. In the first year of the Reagan administration',.
after President Carter had left office, Mr. Thomas Figures was an;,
assistant U.S. attorney, a Carter appointee to the U,S. attorney's'
position, I assume?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; Mr. Kimbrough, '
Senator HEFLIN. And I gather you kept h i m ? ' ,
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir. All the people that were there were kep,9
Senator HEFLIN. How many other blacks were there that were;
part of that U.s. attorney's office when you took over? " .'
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, Mr,' Figures was a part of the attorney staffl,','
that is 20 percent of our five attorneys which was all we had, Anti
there were no black clerical employees.
Senator HEFLIN. There had not been any black clerical employ,.
ees from the Kimbrough appointment? , ""
Mr. SESSIONS. No; Senator H e f l i n . ' ; '
45
, ,Senator HEFLIN. So during your administration you have made
five assistant U.S. attorney appointments?
Mr, SESSIONS. I guess we have made that many over the time.
.Senator HEFLIN. And how long did Mr. Figures stay with you?
Mr. SESSIONS. He stayed with me for almost 4 years, within 1
m.onth of 4 years. Senator, I would say parenthetically he one time
talked to me: he was in a depressed mood and he talked about quit-
ijng, And I asked him not to quit, that I wanted him to remain on
:the staff.
Itold him that he was contributing a lot to his community and
askM him to think about it over the weekend, and he came back in
imddid decide to stay.
;;'S¢nator HEFLIN. Now, I want to ask you about this instance
'Wfjerein, someone has made a reference to one of the judges who
feferred to one of the white lawyers for the plaintiffs in a case as
peing a disgrace to his race for representing, I suppose, blacks from
',What I have ascertained so far.
. .What was the context of this statement? Would you give me
more of the details of this?
",'·,:t\1r. SESSIONS. I have wrestled with that to try to recall that in-
.stiijj.ce.because I respect the lawyer referred to a great deal.
"'Senator HEFLIN. Well, as I understand it, the lawyer who has
Rssn referred to is Mr. James Blacksher.
,Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir: I know members of his firm, and that kind
of'thing, but I was sitting, as I recall, in our small library. And I
,~~\!not swear to this, but I was sitting in there reading a book and
/,lJlJle. ll,ttorney came in and--
, r"ri1e1lator HEFLIN. Who is the attorney?
.,J\ir. SESSIONS. Mr. Hebert from the Department of Justice.
;)¢I!iSl!ul'tOt HEFLIN. Hebron?
1: !'i&.!Mbi,SESSIONS. Hebert.
%~i!!~e.\fa,'torHEFLIN. All right, Hebert.
iVi(1)1;rLSEssIONS. Not quite Hubert, where I am from.
;;r~,~a/Jerry came in and--
~'·;'f$.~patdr HEFLIN. Jerry is Mr. Hebert?
~;A'!!'.1\Xr~' SESSIONS. ~ erry Heberti excuse me. . .
*i:*'ji~d'~e .came In and mentIOned somethmg about Jim Blacksher
I;',!\ltg'that he, was a great lawyer, and I think I agreed. I said, you
:,15litli>r watch out; he will clean your clock. I did not know whether
~F'~~r~ were litigating against each other or not.
)", " . dfje mentioned something about disgrace to his race. I recall
lrid I believe I was sitting there with a book here and he
'·'Iii.and .sat at the end of the table. And I made some comment
'a,ctually, weH, I guess I would have said that or he would not
"o,1,llmQW, said it.
es's I'will not disagree with him, and I do not know why-I
t imagine why I would make that comment.
ator HEFLIN. Well, according to the testimony in the deposi-
ve••Mr. Hebert supposedly is saying that he heard that one
d~es had referred to one oHhe white lawyers for the plain-
sillg a disgrace to his race for representing a black plaintiff.
? did he say who the judge was?
46
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not recall. The thing that really I do not recall
was sayin~ that a judge said that. I recall the phrase "disgrace to
your race' being referred to Jim Blacksher; I recall that.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, the statement, as it has been related to US,
was that one of the judges-I suppose he is mentioning it in
Mobile-had referred to Mr. Blacksher as being a disgrace to his
race because he represented black plaintiffs.
Lawyers represent all kinds of people; they are supposed to rep-
re,sent the people. Now, maybe some lawyers have specialities in
certain fields.
But you do not recall that he mentioned a judge and a judge's
name?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir; I do not recall that. I do not think he did;
at least he certainly did not mention a name. I think I would have
followed up if-it may have been-he may have thought it was im-
plicit or something in the conversation.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Hebert has you replying-he said, "well,
maybe he is," meaning maybe he is a disgrace to his race. Now, I
want to be fair to you and fair to everybody concerned here.
Is it your best recollection that you made that statement, or
what did you say? Obviously, in advance of testifying here today,
you have not been told what Mr. Hebert has testified to. And I am
sure you have not had a lot of time to reflect on it.
Mr. SESSIONS. Right.
Senator HEFLIN. What, do you recall, was your answer to Mr.
Hebert when he made such a statement?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I heard it because somebody who had been
interviewed in Mobile told me they had been asked if I had said
that, so I heard it some time ago. My first reaction was that I did
not say it.
Then I began to think about it and, Senator Heflin, this Was the
way I recalled. I was busy. Jerry came in and said some real good'
things about Jim and I said, you better watch out; he will take you'
to the cleaners, and if you enter into a consent agreement with
him, you better be prepared to adhere to it because he knows wha
the meaning of the words are.
And he says, well, he is a great guy, and that kind of thing, an
he is well respected. But it so vague I do not want to say-ifJerr
said that the judge said that, then surely he would rememper th
But as I recall, trying to recollect on it, the best I could rec
was that I said, well, he is not that popular around town; I ha
heard him referred to as a disgrace to his race.
He handled the City of Mobile case and many other things, and,
do not-I cannot remember. It would have been a passing comme!i
like that, and the context of it was such that I do not know. "
But I will tell you this: I am just being as honest with you, Sen
tor Heflin, as I can possibly be, and I have such respect for ~i
Blacksher that having that raised-and suggesting that I belie
something like that is really painful to me.
Senator HEFLIN. My time is up.
Senator DENTON. All right. I will yield to rou, Senator Simon..
I will ask, in pursuit of Senator Heflin s questioning, which
know to be entirely sincere-lam just curious; I do not want
lose the gist of what was going on.
47
" When he walked in, you say you were reading a book and he di-
l'~rted you from that, and your original reference, and, as I under-
st!llld it, the context in which you keep talking to him about Mr.
Bl~cksher, was in a favorable context.
.'In other words, you said, in terms of his ability, you better watch
o~t; he ~ll clean your clock and, yes, he is very good in the civil
J,ghte kind of case, and so forth. Is that true or false?
, ,Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; that is true, and there are people that
9,l>,~"oo"ss,e e,him. You know, my recollection was, that I thought he was
~,l¢J.g about him as a reference, what kind of lawyer.
.)I!iit if he says it the other way, I remember-the only thing Ire-
/pember is that the phrase was used in that conversation.
" 'Senator DENTON. Well, in the book which I have just received-I
!WI sure my assistants have been looking at it; I think it is the one
from which Senator Heflin is quoting. When Mr. Hebert was asked
!;Ix:,.!'>:!r: Govan, his quest.ioner, did you understand Mr. S~ssions to
be Joking, Mr. Hebert said, I could not tell; to be honest With you, I
e-6ul~ not tell.
," Senator Simon.
. Senator SIMON. Mr. Sessions, I think Senator Metzenbaum sum-
1l1atized the concerns that some of us have. We believe-at least
some of us on this committee believe that the Justice Department,
il!Plllcling the Attorney General, simply are not as sensitive in the
1ltilli of minority rights as they ought to be.
We are concerned with some of the nominees that they are send-
lJ;>~cto us, and in this area of sensitivity, let me just read this one
'St!ttement. This is Mr. Govan of our staff in an interview here with
'l0't':'Hebert:
;,:"."..
:~~"p,: ',,-,
~I'i~y.~ur, conclusion that Mr. Sessions is reluctant in his support for some of the
:,:,-~ ,.ri$~tslnitiatives of the Department of Justice is baaed upon comments that he
,", "':tQiyou that he did not think it was appropriate to be filing the challenge to
, He-st.-large electoral seat?
>' EBERT. I do not know if it was just Mobile. I think, you know, just on conver-
,_~ I have had with him over a 4· or 5-year period that is the impression I get.
":~nJwill skip a few lines, but I do not think I am taking any-
out of context. '
Hebert says, "The general impression I get when we talk
'racial ,qUestions is that he is not a very sensitive person
.it ,comes to race relations." That is the area, frankly, that
oficern some of us. '
c!lIlJ:lSk more specifically-and let me just add Mr. Hebert
,ax that, in some areas you have been good. For example, Mr.
Yeai'd,"I have gotten the impression that he thinks that ger-
dering for racially discriminatory reasons is a definite way
on can harm black voters."
here is another part of this interrogatory here: "We were
!ibeut the NAACP and the ACLU"; this is Mr. Hebert talk-
"r.j}ov!ln: "Were they involved in either of these cases?"
e",rt,',: "I ,believe that the Mobile voting cases that Mr.
r",handledwere, in part, financed by the NAACP Legal De-
n,d" although I am not certain what arrangements they
t"Vv~ in ,the context of my talking to Jeff about the NAACP
'~made some comments about the NAACP and the ACLU."
48
"What were those comments?" "He said he thought they were
un-American," "Did he give any reason for his belief?" "He said
that he thought they did more harm than good; they were trying to
force civil rights down the throats of people who were trying to llut
problems behind them,"
Then I am going to skip a little here, but again I do not think I
am taking anything out of cOntext, "He thought they were un-
American, I remember him using that word. I remember him
saying that they were either. Communist-inspired-again, he has
made that comment to me two or three times, so I do not know
that it was during that conversation that he used that word or
whether he used, like, 'un-American' at that point or maybe at a
later conversation said they were."
Now, have you used that description of the NAAC!' and the
ACLU? I guess that is the first question, .
Mr. SESSIONS. All right, let me talk about that. First, I briefly
scanned· the document· and I did see the part about the previous
question you asked me. I do not feel that I can say I concur in
these statements of Mr, Hebert.
I will say this: we--
Senator KENNEDY. Was that a no or a yes? Did you ever make
such--
Mr. SESSIONS. Some of that, I do not believe I said in the context
that he stated, as he stated it right there,
I want to answer your question-- ,
Senator SIMON. Maybe not in that context, but have you usell.
that description of either being un-American or Communist abOlr
either the NAACP or the ACLU?
Mr, SESSIONS, The one time that I recall using the word "u.
American" was the conversation I previously mentioned to Mr, Ei
ures about-was with Mr. Figures in his office, and I do not reca
saying that in any conversation with Mr. Hebert. ,:.
Now, I do think the issue-I like to discuss things, I am open;'
like to discuss with liberals better than I do with conservativ
You get a-I mean, I just enjoy the free flow of ideas.
I think one time Jerry and I had a conversation where we talk
about the civil rights situation and how it stood today, and I mi\
the comment that the fundamental legal barriers to minorities
been knocked down, and that in many areas blacks dominate
political area, and that when the civil rights organizations or
ACLU participate in asking for things beyond what they are jU
fied in asking, they do more harm than good. We discussed that
uation.
Senator KENNEDY. Would the Senator yield?
Senator SIMON. Y e s . ;
Senator KENNEDY, What is that? What action are they exceedi
that justifies-what sort of actions are you talking· about
would warrant the labeling of un-American or Communist?
Mr. SESSIONS, I do not think they are warranted in being la
that. They did, for example, enter the vote fraud case that I d
think Was a racial case. They had at least four lawyers, I bel
involved in that, and-some really significantly bad state'
were made about that case that were not true.
49
'. And I think that was not a legitimate civil rights issue. It was
trlade into a good political issue, but it was not a legitimate civil
rights issue. .
Senator SIMON. But I guess we are concerned with the whole
question of sensitivity of attitude when the phrase "force civil
lights down the throats of people," which he says you used-do you·
recl'll using a phrase like that?
. Mr. SESSIONS. I do not. I do not recall it, unless it was in the con-
Ull<t of them demanding things. that were not justified beyond the
t,r~4iti~nal !1nderstanding of law. But I do not have a specific in-
~~pe'ln mmd
" Senator SIMON. Now, this Mr. Hebert--
. Mr. SESSIONS. I think we all can agree that the NAACP can, on
occasions, take positions that are not justified.
,.",+SeZ;/ltor SIMON. Mr. Hebert says you used--
'" 'Mr. SESSIONS. They are advocates, and we all push for our point
'::':Q_f>~_e,~; ,
"t"~ena.tor SIMONCIs Mr. Hebert a responsible person?
.,,,Mr. 'SESSIONS. I believe so; I thought so. I liked Mr. Hebert, and I
'!f~1lUtehim, and-- ,
,,' '!lator SIMON. Can you tell us who Mr. Hebert is?
~i,.Mr.·! SllssIONs.He is a career attorney with the Department of
,JiIstice Civil Rights Division, and his area of expertise is in these
. ases and he has been involved ina number ofthem.
,~ pity of Mobile case that I had talked with him about and
.sil! with,hitrla little-of course, I did not really know the law
I'was just egging him on a little. But that case was reversed by
.!~. .supreme Court. '
ator SIMON. But when he says that two or three times he
)you use the phrase Hun·American" or HCommurtist" or some..
'like that about the NAACP and the ACLU, it sounds like he
'ust doing this off the top of his head; that he is a responsible
:rF"
:·'SE~SIONS. Well,I do not believe that he would say that I
direct references to the NAACP as a Communist organiza-
tor SiMON. What about the ACLU?
ESSIONS. Not that one either. I know--
tbtSIlI<ON. He has told us this under oath.
me shift to another, because I know my 10 minutes will
i~~@IONS. I really do not know how that could come about, or
text of the conversation.
". SIi'!~!'oT' During the questioning by Senator Metzenbaum
led that you did not hire any black attorneys. What per-
"ofyour district that you serve as U.S. attorney is black in
"~rms?
Jt)NS; I believe it is 67 percent white.
,$I¥,ON. Fifty-seven percent?
NS., Saty-seven.
,~;;~n~~~u~~n percent.
mEN" White or black?
50
Mr. SESSIONS. White. I had somewhere a paper on that. .Ibelieve
that is-~ , ,
Senator SIMON. But just roughly, is that 67 percent white or
black? '
Mr. SESSIONS. White. '
Senator SIMON. Sixty-seven percent, so that 33 percent of the
people in that area-did it bother you at all that you did not have
any representation on your.staff of that 33 percent? . ' .'
Mr. SEssIoNS. Well, the whole time I was. U.s. attorney, we did; ,
Mr. Figures was there the entire time. That was 'one out of-when'
I came, for 2 years we continued with just five lawyers, and so 20' .J
percent of our staff, legal staff-"'"'" Ii
Senator SIMON. But those ,You hired-~ '~
Mr. SESSIONS. Of those I hired, I did not; that is correct. ,
Senator SIMON. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is up. A
Thank y o u . . ;
Mr. SESSIONS. Although the lawyer population would be much,;
less. There would be-you know, percentagewise, there are a great.I'"
deal more white lawyers tha.n they are proportionate ,in population•..;
'Senator DENTON. Gentlemen, we have been through a round. HEn
has been there 2 hours and 20 minutes. I have not asked a round of!
questions. I would like to take 10 minutes. With your permission, ;1,';
can we take a 10-minute break? "1;
Senator KENNEDY. I would like to, with all respect-I have beene'
here most of that time. .~
Senator DENTON. You have not had a round yet, Senator Kenne,,~
dy? ,,;;
Senator KENNEDY. I have not had a round of questions. .
Senator DENTON. Go ahead.
Just coming back to the affidavit, you are familiar with the a
davit or the sworn testimony? '
Mr. SESSIONS. It came out; somebody showed it to me within
hour Qf the hearing.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, it was just taken yesterday.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand that.
Senator KENNEDY. But you are familiar with these
areas that are being referred to now by Senator Simon?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, this thing about me saying it three times.
something to that effect, I was not-"'"'"
Senator KENNEDY. Well, have you ever said it? Let us go b
then. In this sworn testimony, Mr. Hebert said, in referring to
NAACP and the-"he said he thought that they were un-Am
can." .. .. ,_.j
Have you ever, in your recollection, used the word "un-Ani'
can" with regard to the ACLU or the NAACP? , "
Mr. SESSIONS. As I believe I stated, yes, before you came, wI)
was I said when they involved themselves in promoting un-A
can positions or positions-my words were considered un-Ameri
and particularly foreign policy issues and that sort of thing.
lose support, yes.
But I have not, I do not believe-~
Senator KENNEDY. Wait a minute. What foreign policy rna
are you talking about?
51
k Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, the sanctuary movement and Sandinistas, you

')!i;1l9:-V. I give that kind of stuff--
Senator KENNEDY. Yau call them un-American. What particular
i)~atters do you remember that so offended you that you called the
~~ganizati6ns un-American?
')&~Mr.SEsIlIONS. First, there would not be a specific-I do not be-
,ili~ve,that-it will be stated that I have said I consider the NAACP
h):lri·American. I do not believe anyone has stated that.
"l;;,$.~,!,ator KENN';D:". Did you use the word "un-American" in de-
o'.l!g.r',.bm~, th~activltles of the NAACP and ACLU?
~""d\:lr'I::lEssI9NS. Yes; as I stated--
;":;senator KENNEDY. The answer is yes, you have, as I understand
<iik,~a!1d. you used it in reference to their foreign policy positions,
',J:A\'t is what I gather from your statement, or am I wrong?
'; Mr. SESSIONS, It really came out-as I stated before, we were
f~alking about the National Council of Churches and their involve·
..~l)t. in organizations. I am a member of the Methodist Church
Il8,Mr. Figures is a churchman. We were raising--
" "rrator KENNEDY. That is not my question about which church
, ;Iong to.
'SESSIONS. Would you let me-I do not know, Senator. I do
nt to take your time up, but I do not think you understand
#t"xt and I would need to answer it again.
~thappened was that I. said the National Council of Churches
,·itself when it gets involved in issues that people consider un-
in~~ican because it is outside its realm of religious responsibility.
<"'"d as I said, I blundered on and said that the NAACP does
e of the same stuff when it gets outside of legitimate civil
. )ss.ues and involved in political issues not related to civil
, ';:KElo/NEDY. Well, what are the positions taken by the Na-
ouncil of Churches that you feel are un-American?
EilsIONS. I really do not feel that you would say that it is
.'Iii'to SUPP9rt the Sandinistas, say. I do not--
i~li:NNEDY. Did they take that position? . .
,:lo!S.• No. They are generally supportmg Third World
,t,Ythe610gy, I understand. But I do not have any prob-
plat: It is just a figure of speech to say that--
r"IfENNEDY. That they are un-American is a figure of
!'(j'ks: I do not believe that that is un-American, Senator.
,e"coiiiiidered un-American by people.
ENNEDY. And what does the ACLU--
IbNS. It does hurt their credibility to raise funds and
'11l('jf they are involved in--
ENNEDY. Well, I would like to be more specific. You
hI,av,,' got a pretty broad brush there when you talk
'gIl policy. You know, some people think that the activi-
on,Aquino 4 weeks ago were revolutionary.
. ,$'Right. .
ENNEDY. Some people would say that, and today she is
····the ruler of the Philippines. Now, we do not hear-
dJ',a:s:iun..:A.merican and Communist activities are not used
·,frink, in our society; not used lightly, and there must
52
have been something of the ACLU or the NAACP that warranted,
at least, your making that statement or allegation. Otherwise, you
say I never made it.
You can have it either way, but you have got to have it, and
what I am interested in is trying to find out whether the activities
. which you describe-what were the. activities of the ACLU or the
NAACP, both organizations, evidently, in terms of this sworn testi-
mony, that you felt warranted the words of being un-American and
Communist·inspired.
Mr. SESSIONS. I have not said that they were un-American. I ex-
plained that I said that they take positions that are considered un-
American. They hurt themselves; they lose credibility. :
And many people do think that some of the positions they tak
are against the national interests of the United States.
Senator KENNEllY. OK.
Mr. SESSIONS. Now, I agree that is debatable, and I agree th"
people with good conscience can support Aquino and the Sandini
tas. .
Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Hebert said, "He said that he though
they did more harm than"-he said, referring to you, "that h
thought they did more harm than good when they were trying t
force civil rights down the throats of people." That is Hebert'
sworn testimony.
That is the context that he understood that you were using-~
was in that context that you used the word "un-American," wh¢
the NAACP and the ACLU were, in the words of Hebert-that yO
said they were trying to force civil rights down the throats
people who were trying to put problems behind them.
Mr. SESSIONS. And I have stated earlier on that question-I ha
conversation with Mr. Hebert and we discussed the general ci
rights situation in our country and in our area, and! enjoyed v
much talking with him in a very relaxed manner. ..
And I recall saying that civil rights organizations, when t.
demand more than is legitimate, it hurts their position. I dq
feel like that-I think, as I said earlier, the civil rights organ'
tions, the Department of Justice and the Federal courts h
force integration down the throats of those who resisted it be
it would not have happened any other way. Federal interve
was essential in the South.
Mr. Chestnut and I disagree on a lot of things, but one or
themes is that prejudice still exists and it does; not legal as rIl
maybe; there may be s o m e , ' : "
Senator KENNEDY. Well, Mr. Hebert, evidently, in referrin
this conversation, said, "In the context of talking about it at
conversation we had, he mentioned'" meaning you, Hhe tho
they were un-American," just quote, unquote, about the orga
tions.
Mr. SESSIONS. That was a conclusion he made. I do not
that, and I do not believe I ever said that. He must have con
that from that conversation.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, he said, "I remember him usin
word and I remember him saying that they were either Com
inspired-he made.that comment to me two or three times."
53
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not recall that. I do not believe I said that, not
',-ih:any specific ,manner; no, sir.
';,'Senator KENNEDY. Well, in any specific reference, I do not quite
'know-your comment and your testimony is that you did not say
it~
"IIMr. SESSIONS. I may have said it in the context that I said about
th~,National Council of Churches. In a legitimate context, I may
'!iave" used that word and Mr. Hebert may have believed that I be-
Mi~'\I¢dthose organizations are that way, but it is not true.
;,t':A:i!d"I do not think that he would testify that I ever specifically
.said,that the National Council of Churches or the ACLU is Com-
'lhJi;ni~t" because I do not believe that and would not say it.
1il N'Sen'aoor KENNEDY. Communist-inspired-it is just why he would
;com,H6 that conclusion, a career attorney, in the labeling of the
'i~CPand the ACLU.
'F!1'Senator BIDEN. If the Senator would yield for just a second?
'~"'Sena:tbrKENNEDY. Yes.
-;!1fS~#~tor EIDEN. On that point, on page 38 of the testimony Mr.
'~!;Q'ert said, "He said he thought they were un-American." So he
o 'p\1sly;-:-maybe you do not, but rather than characterize it, he
'fly said you said that.
f;:/SESSIC)NS. I would deny that.
"<itor !3iDEN. That is all.
atorKENNEDY. And your response is that you did not?
\~~~SJONS. That i~ correct. .
tOr ,KENNEDY, DId you ever make any comments wIth regard
btinl;Rights Act? ~
ESS,I(JNS. As brought out earlier, I said it was an intrusive
':statutory authority.
Q;',KENNEDY. I just want 1,0--
ESSIONS. I concede that I have said that, but I believe, as I
ler, that without it-Senator, there were counties in Ala-
'ell tinat bill was passed that no blacks voted in.
irig had to be done. It is an intrusive piece of legislation.
buth, every change in government, no matter how small,
,<$ Cleared. But it was a necessary piece of litigation; I sup-
" .. ",
q;"*ENNJ;my. My time is up.

';lJiffTON. All right. Well, let me have my 10 minutes,
that will round it out, and then let us take a break.
ow everything about Mr. Sessions. I could learn some-
trial-I mean at this hearing, trial, that makes me
s;;!lllt qualified. But I understood the basic elements of
s against him, and they are charges, that he was wrong
the Perry County case and bringing that to trial, and that
t'!because, having brought it to trial, he lost.
;Into that in subsequent questioning, but I do want to
$~ioris, do you believe that the prosecution in that case
Il: better handled?
,Yes,sir"I believe it could have. One of the things I
.doing-we only have eight lawyers in the office. I
, et's assigned to the case, and at one time there were
, mg,fuotions on behalf of the three defendants.
54
At trial, there was at all times thrM fine lawyers for each de·
fendant doing a superb job, and I feel like that I left my assistants
outgunned and I wish that I had participated personally in the'
trial of the case or gotten another-at least one more lawyer to\
help them. .'
Senator DENTON. So in a word, you were not that personally'
deeply involved in the prosecution of that trial?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. The case was assigned to Assistant U.S. At·;
torney E.T. Rolison. It is his responsibility to prepare the case and'"
handle it. We brought in another assistant, Gloria Bedwell, to"
assist. ,:
The case-the first week it was tried in Selma; I did not go tp"
Selma. I talked to them over the weekend and they were having",
problems. The defense, I could tell, was doing an excellent job.',
And after the initial real good testimony the first 2 or 3 days,
they had some bad witnesses, and so I went up to try to help them"
try to get the FBI to coordinate things, and I generally was there.'
I sat in during closing arguments because I thought that our',
office was being challenged and I would be there with my assis!"~
ants when that was-- .,.:
Senator DENTON. Well, for what it is worth, I do believe that yo~
should have, beyond a reasonable doubt, consented to prosecute'
that case. I believe that you were not that personally involved; tha'
your staff was outgunned because there was national contributioiJi
to that situation. '
The rest of the Case against you here today seems to rest on c,
fensive statements that you made. I would hate to be judged q'
statements that I made, not necessarily, of the nature being as,
cribed to you, and I would hate to have my colleagues judged c
statements I have heard them make under such private conditio'
as those being attributed to y o u . , :
But I will say that I should quote here from this paper. This
an affidavit which talks about the kind of intimidation that mig
have existed on the other side, and I have got a lot of testim '
and evidence to offer in that respect.
Senator BIDEN. Excuse Ine, Mr. Chairman.
Senator DENTON. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. Affidavits from whom about what?
Senator DENTON. I was just asking from w h o m . ' ,
Do you know what this is, Mr. Sessions-the origin of this who
starts talking about "on other occasions, Mr. Chestnut has refer,
to witnesses in this case as Uncle Toms," and so on? Do you k
what that is from?
There are quotations here from the Selma Times Journal. Wh
does this affidavit come from, or what is it?
Mr. SESSIONS. You may have there a portion of a motion that
filed in court br our office on the issue of whether the jurysli ,
be sequestered In Selma.
Senator DENTON. I do not want to delay on that. I will
tain--
Senator BIDEN. I am just curious about what you are re
from. .
Senator DENTON. Sure. I will ascertain for Senator Biden'
quotation from the Selma Times Journal of February 18,,'
55
stands on its own, though, and that is attributable, This is attorney
J;L. Chestnut, who was on ,the other side from the prosecution, is
that cOrrect?
',:;,Mr. SESSIONS. A black attorney, and a very powerful attorney.
Senator DENTON. Right. Talk about offensive statements-if we
B:regoing to judge on that, this is his statement in quotes, "Every
; nigger that said anything to the FBI· is going to be put on the
,,,stand;' Chestnut said. "They are going to have to say it out in the
" bpen where you can hear them and you can see them," he said.
"'''We ai'e not trying to crucify anybody; we are just going to hang
ti>ut alLthe dirty linen." That is Chestnut, who is a black attorney,
~,Wking;
"', 1'(0\\" there is a lot of offensive language there, and there was a
1St of offensive language and articles written about this thing. So to
im!'clythat this is not something that is beyond this young gentle-
, 'i!i'"ji' pere is simply not ;n accordance with the facts.
l,t Will quote one other statement that Senator Biden, if he does
Wbtmind, would not mind my quoting, since they might be 01'1'0-
" \jel)ts in the primary. But this is the kind of thing that we are talk-
1;,ii)gAlf?\1t here.
1','",',Z:Jti,',:e,i-e ','s Governor Cuomo; this is a letter to the editor in the Bir-
r,mirigham News recently. "New York Governor Mario Cuomo's re-
~; ""'/&lk~UI~ a recent br~akfast to the effect that 'in Alabama, they
",nuclear freeze 's a dessert; were uncalled for and beneath
·,'::tty of the highest official of one of our 50 great States." So
f;that talk goes back and forth.
'\ J believe this young man, by his conduct in his personal
'~is conduct as a U.S. attorney, has done me credit and I am
., ;'have chosen him as a U.S. attorney. I believe that to the
'at this hearing \las dealt with that, he comes off well.
',lltill open. I do not know everything about this young man,
:ewenough about him to think he was the best man I could
; I)ominate for the U.S. attorney job in Mobile. And from
live heard from him today, I have heard nothing to make
I~ye that. ,
J\appen to agree with him. I think that in some cases-
_ilave said about the black corporal and the need for the
,'get the kick, and so on, I do believe that in some of the
reare activists who proceed beyond that which is in their
Interest, which is exactly the way I heard him say it, to
'g that is unreasonable.
,.ainethem for that? No; because if ther are going to go
he"mark, then they are not doing their job. Sometimes
t,'
~fgotto go past the mark, but when they go past that

·tlley antagonize? Yes. Do they hurt their own cause? I be-
,and I believe that was the context in which Mr. Sessions
Irjjiilark; ilB well as I can understand it.
fbr·12'ininutes-let us corne back at 10 minutes after 5.
,~ess was ta1<.en.]
EmoN, The hearing will corne to order.
~ebert, the subject of the last few rounds, quoting an
Jsubmitted, of the Justice Department is in the audi-
tth/f;
56
Would you come forward, Mr. Hebert? I would like to swear you
in. Would you raise your right h a n d ? '
Will you swear that the testimony you will give before this com:
mittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God? .
Mr. HEBERT. I do.
Senator DENTON. Please sit down.
What is your name?
TESTIMONY OF J. GERALD HEBERT, SENIOR TRIAL ATTORNEY;
CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Mr. HEBERT. J. Gerald Hebert.
Senator DENTON. What is your position in the Department· 0
Justice and how long have yoU been so employed? .
Mr. HEBERT. I am presently s,enior trial attorney in theC!
Rights Division of the Department of Justice, assigned to the voH
section, and I have been an attorney with the Department of J
tice since 1973.
Senator DENTON. Have you had an opportunity in your posit!
to come into contact with the nominee, and if so, would you explll
the circumstances and tell over what period of time that cOlft'
took place?
Mr. HEBERT. I have had an opportunity to come into contact wi
Mr. Sessions, and it has extended back, I believe, about the last
years during his tenure as U.S. attorney for the southern district
Alabama.
I have served as the lead trial attorney for the Justice Depa
ment in a number of voting rights cases that have been brought.
his judicial district, and I have had occasion in connection wi.
prosecuting those cases to come into contact with Mr. Sessions.
Senator DENTON. From that comprehensive contact, would y
believe that Mr. Sessions would fairly consider any case brou
before him by, say the ACLU or the NAACP?
Mr. HEBERT. I have, Senator, very mixed feelings about my
mony today, and I would like to answer your question, but first
plain the reasons for that.
I have-in conversations over the last couple of years, many
which, I understand, have been read into the record in these.
ceedings, Mr. Sessions and I have engaged in a number of conv
tions on subjects that touched racial issues and civil rights iss
At the same time-and those comments are now a matte
public record here, and I stand by those as having been made.
by the same token, I have prosecuted cases that are highly se
tive and very controversial and, quite frankly, unpopular in
southern district. ,
And yet I have needed Mr. Sessions' help in those cases an
has provided that help every step of the way. In fact, I wou1
that my experience with Mr. Sessions has led me to believet
have received more cooperation from him, more active involve
from him, because I have called upon h i m . '
I consider him a friend of mine, more than just a U.S. atto
in the southern district. I call him when I go into Mobile even,.
57
lUll ,not there necessarily on departmental business, and he has oc-
c'/llIion to call me when he has been in Washington.
j;,]'believe that when Jeff Sessions says he is going to do some-
thirig, he is a man of his word and he will do it. And so if his testi-
Ony. before the committee is that he would follow the law faith-
, , I personally would believe him.
ator DEN'TON. Do you think Mr. Sessions enjoys philosophical
e and, as he indicated, is stimulated thereby and sometimes
a controversial position in order to stimulate debate?
.'HEBERT. I believe yesterday when I testified in the deposition
tne word I used to describe him was "engaging," and I think
',ord accurately describes the way that he--
ator DENTON. Engaging?
',HEBER'I'.Engaging.
,l!tOr DENTo.N'. Meaning he likes to engage?
.'HEBERT. Exactly. He enjoyed conversation with me. I do not
whether he baits me, but he-when we would have conversa-
,)lisoffice, we would engage in what I would call'spirited
ndhe would oftentimes take time out of a very busy sched-
, end time talking with me about civil rights cases.
f'eoccasionally-I think, you know, I described yesterday as
e:;fact that he has a tendency sometimes to just say some-
d I believe these comments were along that vein.
,tor:DEN'I'ON. In other words, perhaps he enjoys being a
v,Ocate,sometimes in a discussion?
BERT. I am sure he is no different than many of the rest of
, respect.
·r.li)ENTo.N. Last question: Did you indicate that among the
rneys that you have to deal with in the South on civil
e~, you consider him relatively good in that respect?
BERT. Well, I can only speak in terms of my own personal
,~nt in' ,cases there, but oftentimes we do not receive very
operation from the U.S. attorneys' offices and, in fact, we
.flientimes in some kind of a dispute with a U.S. attorney,
, ;1,Ial U.$. attorney, about a case the Civil Rights Division
oigtobring or is.involved in.
'$essions' case, that has not been the Case. In the two
. c~es that I handled, in the Dallas County, AL case
,a"engo County, AL case, I have had occasion numer-
'cask for his assistance and guidance.
,een able to go to him; he has had an open-door policy
e taken advantage of that and found him cooperative.
,t'DENTON. Do you think he has prejudice which would
l],y.affect those whom he deals with professionally?
,EBERT. I have had many conversations with him over the
r 5 years, and I really do not know if I am in a position to
"Nll-yor
":•.-."i<
the other whether he would or whether he would
'~:he probably feels the same way about, you know, my
eyerse discrimination case, whether I would feel that a
ffj 'you know, is entitled to certain relief.
do not know. I have to stand by the remarks I made
at when he says things-if he says he is going to do
'e'ls a man of his word.
58
Senator DENTON. How many civil rights cases have you prosecut-
ed? '' j
Mr. HEBERT. Since I started working at the Department of Jus-l
tice, I have been involved in over several h u n d r e d . i '
Senator DENTON. Do you consider yourself sensitive on the racial
question?
Mr. HEBERT. Yes.
Senator DENTON. Do you consider Mr. Sessions insensitive in the'
same sense?
Mr. HEBERT. I think that some of the comments he has made and
the comments that I testified about yesterday, in my judgment,
showed racial insensitivity, and I think I mentioned that to him at'
the time he made them. ,
Senator DENTON. In the sense that you believe that he would do ".
what he says, do you believe he could be a fair and impartial Fed-·i
eral judge? '
Mr. HEBERT. I would hope he conld; I do not know. "
Senator DENTON. Do you have anything else you wish to add to
your previous statements about Mr. Sessions, any nuances you care'
to cast on them?
Mr. HEBERT. The statements that I made yesterday-and the',
question you just asked me is a very difficult one for me to answel"
because I am not totally objective in this situation.
I am troubled by the fact that there is an image based on stat
ments that I have made that Mr. Sessions is a racist. I do no
really know whether he is or he is not. I probably ought to know
but I do not; I really cannot say.
He has made some comments that show racial insensitivity, bu
by the same token he has not let whatever philosophy he migh
have or the comments that he has made affect his ability to dot
job as U.S. attorney and to help the Civil Rights Division'. ,.t'
So, you know, I would really have to just give you my opini
about whether or not I think he would or whether he would not.
do know, though, that he is somebody who has been there when"
have needed him.
Senator DENTON. Well, you seem to have said, and you corr'
me if I am wrong, that in the South you have encountered anti
thy to some of your own thrusts of belief, and so o n . '
So I do not hear you saying that· you consider him differen
the worst sense than the others with whom ,you have dealt vi
considering your own philosophical position and the thrust ofy
own purpose.
Mr. HEBERT. We have had considerable difficulty with sev
U.S. attorneys in cases we have wanted to bring. We have not e
rienced that difficulty in the cases that I have handled with
Sessions. In fact, quite the contrary.
Senator DENTON. Thank you.
Senator Biden.
Senator BIDEN. Thank you.
Mr. Hebert, thank you for coming up. I am not being solicit
but I, quite frankly, cannot think of a more difficult spot to b
Mr. HEBERT. Neither can I, Senator Biden. ','
Senator BIDEN. Pardon me? '
Mr. HEBERT. Neither can I, Senator Biden.
59
Senator BIDEN. And I am not being smart; I mean this seriously.
I mean, you know, obviously it is clear to this Senator that you like
,Jeff Sessions, and it is also clear that you are a man of conscience.
"Were this a trial, as some have portrayed it, I would let the de-
. :f~Dse,-the prosecution would rest at this point on your statements.
¥,\\'o\Il<i just walk away because, at best, in. terms of the question
~~lating to whether or not there is racial insensitivity or prejudice,
,~t.best it has been damning from faint praise, from this Senator's
;~fu"I~il',ertota triaJ.This is a se"reb for giving Mr. Sessions and

~¥eryone else the benefit of the doubt, so I am going to pursue this
...~·little further. .
. .'. M,,; Hancock, in his sworn testimony-and by the way, I might
.sgy Jor the record what you have said here is totally consistent
)\I.ith what you saidin your statement. I was going to read when
";l!i~tt~~:~t,;d b~~r~~~!a~~f~;~~rff~r statement.
{{~itl~\r.~'Y6ueverexperienceddifficulty in cooperation withMr, Sessions' office?
Mr. HEBERT. No, no. In fact, I havebeenable-to call up on the ,phone and ask Jeff
if !'.could dictate a paper to his secretary that needed tQ be filed within an hour and
9,e_has~een willing to help me out. That just happened within the last 2 months.
.••.:nJ1to)lghout here, you do not attempt to characterize in a nega-

tive context what Mr. Sessions has said or references he has made,
M4tea<i the statement. So I just want, for the record, to say that
liiifull. reading of your testimony yesterday is totally consistent
'Wirat·,you have said here today.
liinthe issue of whether or not Mr. Sessions is one who has
lly'cooperative, Mr. Hebert, a colleague of yours, if I am not
en'S!s that correct?
f!E8ERT. Mr. Hancock.
!I',BIIlEN. Excuse me. Mr. Hancock, a colleague of yours,
med that Mr. Sessions has, in fact, not been nearly as coop-
a:. you have had the benefit of cooperation from Mr. Ses-
.. qoc)l:, in his sworn statement, said he officially requested
nvestigation on a voting rights case in-and I yield to my
e~. from.. Alabama for the correct pronounciation of the
!low do you pronounce that county, Conecuh County?
.Rr. (JoDecu!J, County.
j~EN. Conecuh County, Conecllh County.
e later, he called the FBI headquarters to inquire about
.of,the investigation and he was told the FBI did not in-
ecause Jeff Sessions told them not to.
.,telephone conversation with Mr. Hancock, Sessions con-
t l).e instructed the FBI not to investigate because "he
waS a bad investigation and did not agree with it."
of J;ny knowledge, in reading the Federal prosecution
",.irrfa~, that is not something that Mr. Sess!ons
.,a\lthorlty to do. Is that correct? Does Mr. SessIons
oaty to countermand an order from the Justice De-
he FBI to investigate, to say do not investigate?
. Well, that is a matter of departmental policy. I can
E~:9fP~;~ifle'~~ptuii1';';~~OUld.
60
.'
Mr. HEBERT. We routinely ask the Federal Bureau of Investig~
tion to conduct investigations for us, and we do it in written forw'
from Mr. Reynolds, the Assistant Attorney General, to the Directdb,
of the FBI. ,J
A copy of the request goes tothe U.S. attorney in whosedisttl

the investigation is going to be conducted, so that he is awate::~
what we are looking into. If the U.S. attorney who receives tlfJl
request has a problem with the investigation, typically what WOI/II
,happen would be a call would be made to us directly or to Brf
Reynolds, in this case, raising whatever collcerns there are.:':
And the incident you are referring to is'one that I have pers~~
knowledge of. :\
Senator BIDEN. And what h a p p e n e d ? "
Mr. HEBERT. Well, we had sent the-as Mr. Hancock testifie<j",!@
sent the request to the Director of the FBI and we called becau5J!
think, as I recall, we were concerned that we had not gottenJ"
report back from the a g e n t s . .
And we found out that, in fact, Mr. Sessions had gotten in'tl!A1
with the agents and had called off the investigation. ,"
Senator BIDEN. What was your reaction to that? ,:'
Mr. HEBERT. Well, as I recall, we were rather upset abo"t it. '''~
Senator BIDEN. Has that happened many times before in )Tour:
perience?, ' ' ",'
Mr. HEBERT. No; I cannot remember it haVing happened. It'
have happened that I am not aware of, but I have-
Senator BIDEN. Did you draw any conclusions as to why M
sions had called it off? Was it just that he was new and not p
larly seasoned in the job or that he did not have enough incW
to pursue it or he had an animus relating to the parties?D'
draw any conclusions at the time?' , ,
Mr. HEBER'\'. All I can remember is that the conversati~'
recall,t90k place between Mr. Hancock and Mr. 8essiotiS,
Sessions just indicated that he did not think the invest
should go forward. '?
And I do not remember him giving any reasotiS for tn'
probably- . L
Senator BIDEN. You understand why I ask the question.
of your statement that you,in fact-and I am not trying
game with you, but in light of your statement that he has
cooperative, when I read that testimony, I found that som
not suggestinj: other attorneys in the district of Delaware
where else might not do the same thing, but I found it kin'
usual.
It has been a while since I practiced law, but I found th
what unusual, and that is why I ask it relative to your s
about the de~ee of cooperation.
Let me shift to another question. Were you the Justi
ment oflicild who had the conversation with Mr. Ses8io
to there is a judge who made reference to a prominent VI,'
rights lawyer as a traitor to his r a c e ? '
Mr. HEBERT. Yes. "
Senator BIDEN. I am not playing, again, a game. WoUld
your own words, tell US about that conversation, to the best
recol1ection? ','
61
" ~EBERT. Mr. Sessions and I were in his office and we were
ilil' about different judges' handling of cases and their relation-
ips't6 the attorneys. Ahd in the southern district of Alabama at
E>"time, I Was explaining to him the wide difference in ~he treat-
t,that ,we had been afforded in two different cases by two dif·
", .J~4!te~, , .
:~i1'the course of that-the context of that conversatIon, I
rOhErd to him that one of the judges had reportedly said, and I
o this day do not know if he said it because I have not had
io~ to ask the Federal judge this, but--
rJI1DEl'I' Who was the judge?
"Il!il','f. Pardon me? '
,r'EiDEN. Who was the judge? Did you tell him the judge's
lad. y~s; I mentioned to Mr. Sessions who the judge was
,1',li7and I told him that I do not know if it was ever said.
I'mentioned to Mr. Sessions that, you know, this had been
tl'-lawyer who handled civil rights cases in Mobile was
'traitor to h,is race or a disgrace to his race.
r BIDEN. And what is your recollection of Mr. Sessions' re-
,WJnment to your statement?
, ' RT. As I recall, he said, well, he probably is.
BIDEN. Now, did he laugh or did he joke, or did ~ou
,en,he said that? I mean, did you take it as, gosh, he IS a
" ri,d is, this not funny, or did you think, well, gee, I hope
meM"that, Jeff? What was your response?
gr. ije smiled, Senator; he smiled when he said it. He
. He did not have a serious look on his face, but he
, e said it. And I said, oh, come on. That is my recol-
~~,gn~er$aFbn., ,
'!i~, Nl;iw; with regard to judges, you have been asked
this /tearing whether or not-and you have stated it
YO\1r opinion-whether' or, not Mr. Sessions was ra-
Ye'\lng you said yes, you thought he was.
'h'avealsosaid that he is h man of his word and if
ip,gto ,do something, he will do it. The problem we
, e conftrma Federal judge, he or she is there until
,aJ:i;,They are there for a lOng time~hopefully, a long
, s"getsconftrmed.
!l\1,ah,littorneybring!hg a case for the NAACP, on
',AACP, would you discuss with yourclients and/or
Iter or not you should have Judge Sessions recused
Q\l, were about to bring because of comments he has
+',li.., ," _'.""
)ii:leldtawna judge ina case that I was prosecut.
g\it,tltere was some basis for doing it, I certain-
l,~t'lrie be more specific. It is a tough, tough ques-
:'Itased on"thecomments that Mr. Sessions has
i~t o.rto chalJenge Or in serio'usness, whatever the
~action of' contexts, if you left the Justice Depart-
panelling a case for the NAACP, a voting rights
'l! ,before Judge Sessions, would you not at least
62
raise the question with cocounsel and/or your cHent that
should make a motion to recuse Judge Sessions on that case?
Mr. HEBERT. I would certainly raise the issue, absolutely.
Senator DENTON. Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Hebert--
Senator BIDEN. My time is up; that is the reason I stopped.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Hebert, I might say that Y\lU are a surpri
witness. ' '
Mr. HEBERT. I am a little bit surprised myself, Senator."
Senator HEFLIN. You were surprised that you came at the tim
that you did, and I want to delve into how, you got here. I thin
you are also surprised as to what your testimony has been.
Would you tell us if you were scheduled to appear as a witn
or after giving the deposition, was it your understanding that the
would be no further testimony on your part?
Would you tell us what your understanding was and the Depa
ment of Justice's position relative to this understanding; and if y
would, then, tell us what has occurred and how you arrived he
today at this time? ,',
Mr. HEBERT. I think perhaps Senator Biden put his finger on
to some extent in explaming why I am here. When I was conta
bytheABA--
Senator HEFLIN. That is the American Bar?
Mr. HEBERT. Yes; and asked for my comments about Jeff
sione, my impression was that they were going to be confiden
remarks and that they would go no further than that. ' ."
How they got from that point to where we are today is really'
consequential. Later, as things developed and this hearing date'
proached, I was called by Mr. Govan of Senator Biden's staff
week and asked if I talked to the ABA, and I said I did.
Arid he asked me what I told the ABA and I told him til
thought that was confidential and that I would not tell him. A
believed at the time and I still believe today that that is d~
mental policy not to release the details of that kind of commu
t i o n . "
And Mr. Govan indicated he respected that and that he w'
take it up with Senator Biden and the Department of Justi
that needed to be done. The next thing that I knew was Yester
was told about 1:15 that a car would pick me up at 1:45 and t
was to come up to the Senate where I would be questioned
my contact with the ABA.
And I Was told to report, which I did, and when I came up,
sworn and I gave testimony yesterday. And as I said a few m'
ago, I really-I have a very good personal relationship wit
Sessions. I have worked side by side with him on some cases 1
sense that I have had to go to him for some advice.
And I felt bad about it last night, and I did not do all
about it. I just felt bad about it; that I knew this was not goi
help him. But by the same token, I felt that I had done my d,
had come up to the Hill when I was told to and I told th~
yesterday, as I al1). telling the truth today. ,
Today, we had in the Voting Section-apparently, some
employees were here and they came back this afternoon..'
63
f~tr~]~~8t~strt ofbeen a wrenphing day for me;I havereally
Ij'l"hadlieard. a report on National Public Radio this morning
!l,ut it: And, again, the comments I made yesterday in my deposi·
"Pi.yOU kllow, were reported. on national radio this morning, \lot
utegto'me by name, but attributed to me in the sense that I
you know, Mr, Sessions would have to answer to those, as he
XII'!1y should.
up felt bad .about that, and I was talking with Mr. Hancock
this afternoon and when we were talking someone 'came in and
,gee, your name and your testimony from yesterday-they are
11* askihg Jeff a lot of questions about it and it is really-you
'frihe is being very seriously questioned about it. And I said,
I)' Ikriew that and I feel bad about it.
"as sitting in my office, and my office is located about 2%
,from here, and I said before any vote is taken by the com·
'I"want Jeff to know that no matter how it all turns out,
"'-hewiris or whether he is not approved by the committee
Senate-I want him to know that I simply did not really
for all this to get to the point where we are today, but
:~eveloped and I had a duty to do what I did, and that when
I'said and done, we can walk away from it and hopefully be
atliJ¢1' we were before.
''''dy;you know, called me and said, Hebert, you better
"erl' right away because you have got to straighten this
'e up on my own, really, just to pull Jeff aside and to say,
;you and I go back a long way and we have had a lot of
tions over the years, and I just want you to know that I
rday-I answered the questions that they asked me.
\>t I gave a fairly balanced view of it yesterday, but I do
,. iJthat was really coming out today.
'1,FIEFLI~. Let me ask you this: Have you been dealing in
.ern district of Alabama with U.S. attorneys before Mr.
was the attorney?
,.lIE,/,. I know I had some dealitlgs with a Mr. Kimbrough,
ieiVepreceded him in that district. And if I am not mistak-
,,'):rave had some dealings with Mr. Whitespunner, who
,,M,,.,.Kimbrough, and then there was someone who served
tlngLU.s, attorney, Mr. Farve, I believe, who is now de·
,dlhad some dealings with him as well.
f H:Ii:FLlN.. Well, in dealing with Mr. Kimbrough, who was
'hl'ey-were your dealings with him~was he always coop·
'/No;he Was not always cooperative; neither was Mr.
ner, I had very little dealing with both of those gentle-
'l1tadd; but to the extent that we in the Civil Rights Di-
'd:'atthat time, I was not in the Voting Section;· I was in
'!p.'Sectioh handling school desegregation cases.
liiivlHhat miiny Alabama school desegregation cases. I
-,of, my time in Georgia and Mississippi. But we had
'~r)lWith both Mr. Kimbrough and Mr. Whitespunner,
#thries were not very helpful and cooperative.
64
Senator HEFLIN. Were there remarks made by either predeces.
sors of Mr. Sessions in offic\! that would lead you to beheve that
they might have racial prejudices?' ... ' . . , .'
Mr. HEBERT. I really did not have very many conversations witll
them that would leave me in a position to answer that, Senator;'
really know Mr. Sessions far !;letter arid have had far more oPPO
tunity to observe him than I did either of those twolfentlemen. ..'
Senator HEFLIN. Who was the judge that-well, It is a hearsii
situation. .
Senator DENTON. E~cuse me, Senator Heflin. You can have yo
time,but we do have five bells. If you wish to--
Senator HEFLIN. Have we got a vote on? .
Senator HEFLIN. Well, that is all right. Since it is hearsay, I
not pursue it.
Senator DENTON. Well, you can continue your questioning.
Senator HEFLIN. No; I will go vote.
Senator DENTON. All right. I will have to go vote. We will s
in recess for 7 minutes.
fA brief recess was taken.]
Senator DENTON. I should announce that the ranking minOr
member has suggested, and we agreed, that today we will finish,
do all we can to finish, with Mr. Sessions, and then, on Se
Biden's suggestion, reconvene on Wednesday, the 19th, at 10 a
That leaves many witnesses here without having had the op
tunity to testify yet. We have witnesses in airplanes on the wa
because we did not know that there were going to be so lllany
nesses here, so there are many inconvenienced. ..
But there are Senators who have to be other places and thet
no other way to do it because there are many who wish to ques
Mr. Sessions further On the minority side, and that is the wa
will do it
So the witnesses are free to remain, if they wish to, but they
not be testifying today. Wednesday, the 19th, at 10 a.m., is
we are going to reconvene the hearing.
Mr. Hebert, I just have a couple of quick questions for you.
did answer Senator Heflin by stating that you did find Mr.'
brough less cooperative, and you have indicated that you are
cially sensitive. And you indicated that you thought that you,
attorney, would use the statements that you have heard from
Sessions as a reason to ask for recusa!.
Mr,HEBERT. Excuse me,Senator.
Senator DENTON..Consider asking for a recusal.
Mr. HEBERT. Yes.
Senator DENTON. That is right; I am glad you corrected
that.
Do you consider that by virtue of your background in the tr
es of civil rights that your threshold is lower in a recusal situii
In other words, do you consider your sensitivity to be much gJ.i
on civil rights issues than most of the Federal judges now se
the S o u t h ? ' . •.•.
Mr. HEBERT. Well, we .have a lot of fine judges in the Sout
and many of them are very sensitive. And I do not really.•
how that works out relative to my own. I will tell you, though;!'
65
ji'~'\Wi\l;ttqrn~Ys in the .Civil Rights Divisio~ are tr~i:,,;d to be sensi·
11'\le andto 'have a hIgh threshold for racIal senSItIvity, and I can·
", ,': yse1f to have a !)igh threshold. "
ator PENTON. I am sertainly aware of that.
~0'1 think 1'4r. Sessions is a racist?
; t.r~lI!!;I\T. N:o; I do not.
:~torDENTON. Do you think Mr: Sessions will judge cases
r:" HEBERT. Senator, I have wrestled with that question iliore

}h~ last 24 hours perhaps than you have, with all due respect,
r'6aiJ.' honestly say that I think you very much on this commit·
sit as judges, weighing t,he evidence and trying to decide wheth·
preponderance of it points in one direction or the qther.
~ye. ,done that in my own mind, but I have a very limited
ilt of information to deal with and you have a wider variety
;1 do. I do not know whether he would be prejudiced when he
'tiii. the bench or whether he would be impartial.
, might add that that is total speculation on my part and I
not say whether I would know that about any nominee unless I
the opportunity to sit and listen to each and every word
en. I would not base my decision or my vote on one person's
':,ony, as I would in a case, either.
ator DENTON. All right. Are you aware that I sent five
:S-this is public information, but it should be repeated here-
'rd to the Justice Department besides Mr. Sessions, including
chael Druhan, Jr., who later withdrew; Gordon B. Kahn, a
ankruptcy judge with primarily Democratic connections, and
e is K·a·h·n; Mr. Patrick Sims, primarily Democratic can·
s, and he was a U.S. magistrate for the southern district of
,a; along with Jeff Sessions' name to the Justice Depart·
as selected by the Justice Department, and I just wanted to
'llt clear at this hearing.
Sessions says he will be fair as a judge, would you believe
B~I\T. I guess in the courtroom we would say this question
asked and answered. He is a man of his word and when
something, I believe him. And if he says that-and I think
, response to you, Senator Denton, that if he says he is
enforce the law, and that he may disagree with the law
"going to enforce it, I would believe him.
(DENTON. Thank you very much, sir. You are dismissed.
ccBIDEN. Well--
!!!TON. Go ahead, Senator Biden.
IOEN. I do not have any further questions except to say
," pressed. We have a lot of witnesses that come before
tee. I have been here going on 14 years.
t being solicitous when I said earlier that I appreciate
gy of your situation. Quite frankly, it is a little like if
colleagues for whom I have great affection were appoint·
noh and I had to vote.
"ilien who I believe are decent and honest and men of
'b)lt I believe their views and their prejudices run so
66
deep, there are some cases I just would not want them being any.'
part of.
That prejudice could be on whether they could fairly handle
rape case, fairly handle a civil rights case. And I suspect before m
tenure in the Senate is up, which is in 1990, I am probably going
have to make those judgments on colleagues of mine and I do 11
look forward to it. I hope I do it with the degree of honesty
grace that you have done it.
Thank yOu fortestifying. ..
Mr. HEBERT. Thank you, Senator Biden, and your comments ii>'
cate that you heard what I said.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Hebert.
You are excused.
Senator BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanim
consent that the transcript that we have been referring to so m
all afternoon be inserted in the record at the appropriate poin'
its entirety.
Senator DENTON. Without objection, it is so ordered.
[Document follows:]
67
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
UUn'BO S':AWS BEltATE
COlJHI'l"mB on ~ JtID:ClMY
SWorn ~st1tco.ny of J PAU1I F ~ UAliCOCIt

3. G&V'AtJ) JtBBBlQ
.l\L!mRlI' S. G:t.mm
IlANIllL r.. am.r.
tfaahlnvt.on;D.C.
lllU'Ch 12, 1986
-
MILLER REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
807 c 81'''', H.e.
...
WUhl"D1on. D.C. 20002
68
1 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
•
•
• IN REI NOMINATION OF
JftFF~llSo..N S'ESSIONS. TO BE
• UNITED STAT£S DISTRICT JUDGE
FOR THE SOUTHERN DrST~tCT OF
7 ALABAMA
• - - ~ - - - - - • - - I
• wednesdaY, March 12. 1986
" Room 80-246

Dirx.en Senate Office 8uildin9
.
1t WIshington, O. C•
The sworn testimony of Paul Y. Hancock, J. Ger.,ld Hebert,
" Albert s. Glenn, and Daniel L. Ball, was taken commencing at
"
II
2:47 p.m.
presentl
" REOINALD C. GOVAN

Minority Counsel/Investigator
" Co~mitt90 on the ~udlciary

Un1tQ~ States Senate
" FRANK ,KLONO.SKI
.
"
II
IeV,oBtigator
Committee on the Judiciary
United Stat.s Senate
KENNETH P. OERGQUIST
Deputy A.llstant Attorney ,General
Office of Legislative end Intergovernmental Affaira
united State. Department of JUltice
.
..
69
Telltimony of.
Paul F. Hancock
J. Gerald Hebert
"
I
'Albert S. Glann 51
Daniel L. Bell 65
II
,.
,
"
j
:1
'I
1
'J.J
.I
70
PRO C BED I N G S
• (2147 p.m,)
• ~lr. Govan. Hy nallle :1.5 Reginald Govan and I'm llinor:l.ty
• investigator for the JUdioiary Comlllit.tee.
• Hr. KlonOlki. If I can butt in, why don't w• •• tabl:l.sh
• that we're hold.ing th:l.e Illeet:l.ng on request of senator Biden,

7
who had requested two attorneys from the Oepll.rtmnnt of
• Justice? Mr. Govan had some ,!:uestions and that's why we're
• here.
to
Mr. Govan. My understanding df the groundrules for our
"
12
session today is, tirst, as rrank stated, Senator Siden
requeated the presence of two Justice Department att"r' (,ys,
." Mr. Paul Hancock And Mr. Jerry Hebert, at the confirl'l/ltion
heari",>,s scheduled for tomorrow, Thursday, at 2:00 ~.rr, •• or.

II
the nomination of Jefferson Sessions to the Or.it~rl ~tates
II
Oistr:l.ct Court.
17
It ir; my underlt.anding that this session is desl,HHl(l. to,
" to some Gxtent, answer our need tor information. At the same
.
"
..
time, w4 are not qiving up any rights to requast the presence
of the attorneys at the hearing ·under whatever procedures, if
it should be necessary, would be wo"rked out.
...
Zi Mr, Bergquist. Let me at this point make a remark that
if you do want theso attorneys present at the hearin9 tommorro
... thon I would suggest that you for a subpoena because it is
not our policy t.o provide line attorneys :l.n the hearing
unll!s8 there is sOllie extraordinllry rell8on.
Hr. GOvan. Mr. Hancock, you W8re
Mr. Bergquist. Before you start, let DIe ma,ke One othe'r
Point for the record. Since you're obviou8ly going to be
questioning two of these witnessee in regard to their cOmments
they made to an ABA investiglltor !Ill a part of the ABA
investigation at Mr. Jeft Sessions,

think it's aPPropriate ;
'~o ~ote
l"
that these remarks that were given to the investigator
'were 9'iven in Confidencej that by bringing them into an open

II,
. hearing and have them t,eatify on the remarks that they made to j
i1
an ABA investigator Would have, in the words Of Senator Biden, Ii
effect on other individuals who may b~ called uPon
the ABA to give confidential statement~.

So for th~ recOrd, I just want tllat Warning to be noted.
72
Whereupon,
, PAUL F. HANCOCK
, was called A8 a witness And, having pr8vioualy been duly
• ewern, teetified A. followSI
Mr. Govan. Hr. HAncock, how long have you been employed
• by the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department?

, Mr. Hancock. Since September of 1970.
Mr. Govan, And did you go to that job out of law school1
• Mr. Hancock. Yes.

to Mr. GOvan. l~hat are presently your responsibilities in
II tlie Justice Dep",rt.m8nt?
"
13
Mr. Hancock. I'm assigned to the Votin,. Section of the
Civil Rights DIvision. My position is assistant for

14
in the Voting Section. J have initial supervJ,sory
" responsibility ove~ the attorneys in the Voting Section that
" perform litigation work.
" Mr. Govan. In the course of your responsibilities with
" the Justiee Oepartment, have you had an opportunity to work
."
zr
with Mr~ Jefferson Sessions, who is presently United States
Attorney for the southern District of Alabama?
Mr. Hanccek. Yes.
" Mr. Govan. In what capacity did you work wi tli him?
..
tJ Mr. HancocX. Waprosecuted a number of civil rights
lawsuits in the Southern District of Alabama and Mr. Sessions
is United State I Attorney, and we always deal through the

73
United States Attorney and the United States Attorney Is, to
SODle extent, involvad in 411 litiqation 1n his or her

district.
Mr. Govan. Have you worked with other United States

Attorneys aeroBs this COuntry?
Mr. Hancock. I've Worked with other United StatlHl

7
Attorneys in different parts of the COuntry. I ObViOUSly
• haven't worked with all of them, but __
Mr, Govan. Approximately how mllny U.s. Attorneys have
yoU worked With, rough 811timate?
Mr. Hancock. I've worked with the United States
Attorneys in every district where the United States has had
a Votinq rights laWSuits. OUr lawsuits are, to a larqe
ext.ent, in th!:" St<tte~ that are covered by the VOt-i,110 Ri.ghts
Act, which ar~ ths States that Comprise the old Confederacy.
But We',re not limited to that region. We 'VEt been involve
in litigation in New '{ark, Hawaii, AlaSka, Chicago,
California, Montana, Idaho, and different States Outside of

the old·South.
Mr. Govan. '{ou ana! had a oonversation last week about
your haVing talked with the repreSentative of the American Bar
ASSOCiation who was investigating Mr. Sellsions' nomination,

is that correct?
Mr. Hancock. That\s right.
Mr. GOVan. Ana during that s:.9..JJ,versatio n • I tola 'you that

74
was oal1in9 on behalf of Senator Bldln, isn't that right?

z
Mr. Hanoook. ~hat·aoorreot.
• Hr. Govan. And I asked you, had you, in fact, talked
• with a representative of the ABA, is that right?
• Mr. Hanoock. You did.
• Mr. Govan. And what WIlS your response to that question?

7
Mr. Hancock. told you that I had talked to II.
• representative of the ABAI that I was aSked questions about
• Hr. Sessions and hiB nomination and was told that the answers
10
would be kept in confidence and that this was part of the
" normal routine of investigating people who had been nominated

12
for the federal judiciary to call people whr" may have
" information about them,
" Mr. Govan. And I asked you were your canv~r~atiDns
"
.. the ABA con~erning professIonal exper~~nces that yOU had
Mr. Sessiona, ian't that ri-g'ht?

17
Mr. Hancock. I don't recall one way Or the
It
you "uked me that. You did ask me about whether talked to
It
t~e ABA about Mr. geesions' qualifications to be a federal
zo
judqe. I don't recall ~uch else about it.
ZI
Mr. Govan. 00 you recall.having told me that the
Z2
information that you had was a result of litigation that
.. had been involved in cn behalf of the Department of Justice, ..

II
. and therefore you were not .... illing to diseuse with me those
~atters that you discussed ....ith the American Bar Association]

\!
i!
75
•
Mr. Hancock. I told you that what I had said to the
ABA, I laid becaue. I lelt .s a lawyer and a member of the
ASA that I had a relponlibility to anlwer their questions I
that I was anewering them in confidence and that I thought it
was entering another realm by telling you what I had told the
ABA.
And I think that the circumstances were different, so I
didn't tell you what I ha4 told thG ABA •
• Mr. Bergquist. Let me at this point interject. His

'0 actione were entirely prOper. It is departmental policy that
" any contact made with a line attorney in the Department of
JUlltice must be mad~ through my office, and he did an entirely
proper thing bV retusinq to reveal any information.
So nothing ill th~ record should reflect that he acted
improperly Or refused to answer your questions.
Mr. Govan. I certainly aqree with that. just wanted
to establish for the record that ,Mr. Hancock and I did talk
last week and what the eUbst~nce of that conversation was.
Mr. Bergquist. Yes. Now, in ,J:'eqards to t'uture
questions that you have here, he may discuss cises that are
liti'1ation. He may not dlsc'uss current 11 ti9ation.
Mr. Govan. Well, we'll crosS that bridqe as we get to
if it's necessary.
Mr. Bergquist. 00 not talk about current litigation,
matters that are Under present litigation, but you may discuSs
76
,
any eases that have already gone through the litigation
3
process.
3
Mr. Govan. Mr. Hancock, would you list for us the cases
• in which you worked with Mr. Sessions and what interaction you
• had with him in each of those cases, to the best of your
• recollection?
, Mr. ·Hancock. Okay. I don't know that I can list all the
• eases. don't recall the date when Jeff first became U.S.
• Attorney. We've had a number of voting rights lawsuits in

10
the Southern Dietrict of Alabama) those cases are a matter of
" pUblic record.
"
13
I've worked _. I've had some contact with Mr. Sessions,
would assume, in each one of those cases. TO name a few
" of them - . ! don't know that it's a complete list, but we
" tried cases involving -_ we were a party to Bold~~ versul the
"
t7
Cit.y of Mobile.
We have litiqated cases styled United States versus
" Dallas County, Alabam~r United States versus Marin90 County,

'0
Alabama'; United States versus Conecuh County, Alabama --
..'" C-o-n-e-c-u-hr United States versus Hale County,
! can't recall others at the moment, but 1 know that is

Alabama~
"
23
not a complete list.
The rest of your question of what contact I had with Mr.
.
U
sessions
Mr. Govan. Yes, r1qht.

77
10
Mr. Hancock. I'm' not able to tell you eveJ:'y tillle
• talked to Mr. seslionl about each one of those oase8. The
norlllal procedure within the Department i , that .s we recommend

• lit1qlltion in a U.S. Attorney's district, that peraon is
• afforded an Opportunity to provide input into the
, recommendation process.
generally talk to Il united States Attorney at the tims

• we are recommending filing' of a lawsuit either before the
Assistant Attorney General gives his concurrence or upon

10
concurrence of the Assistant Attorney General to determine
" whether the United States Attorney has 4nything that he or
" she wants to consider in deciding whether to file the
" litigation, any objection to the lawsuit, Dr any ~oncurrenc.
to the law5ui t.
That would have been, in this situation, the primarY
conversation that I would have had with Jeff Sessions, would
have been the time that we were c.onsidering 1i tigation. The
decision whether to initiate a lawsuit under the Voting Rights
Act in my field is made by the Assi~tant Attorney for the
Civil Ri,ghts Division.
It's not made by the United States Attorney, although, as
~ay, the United States Attorney provides input irto the
process. The litigation, once initiated, is handled by us
and our lawyers out of washington, not by the Un! ted States
Attorneys I 0 ff ices.
78
11
, To /I. significant extent, the United States Attorney Is'
not in~olved 1n the litigation onoe the lawBuit 1a filed.
In BOrne instances. depending on the di.trict arid whether the

• United S'tateB AttOrney wants involvement, i t varies, but 01,11:
• lawyers handle ,the litigation uneSsr the Votinq Rights Act.
• S~\ i~ I'm answering your question fully, once the law-

7
suits are filed, I don't have very much contact with the
• United States Attorney, particularly in thi,s situation. Our
• litigation is done without much participation by the United

10
States Attorney in the Southern District of Alabama.
" Mr. Govan. take it, then, that the American Bar
" Association reptesenative questioned you about one of these
" five eases?
" Mr. Hancock. Yes. As I recall -- and, again, at the
" time I talked to the representative of th~ ABA, I didn't
" consicler' it to be a very significant conversation and my

17
recollection is not -~ ! don't remember everything that I told
" the man, but I do recall being asked some -- he apparently
." had had some information about onB of the lawsuits and he
askecl me about onB of t~e lawsuits.
" Mr, Govan. Which laWsUit?
" Mr. Hancock, The Conecuh County lawsuit.
" Mr. Govan. And what information do you have on Conecuh
" County concerning Mr. Sessions?
" Mr. Hancock. The issue that seems to be on the floor WAS
79
12
, when we had requested an 1nv81tlgation in Conecuh County and
Conecuh County, we had -~ the form ofr_que.ting tho ••
inve.tigations i l • ~.morandum from the Civil Right. Divieion
to the Director of the FBI reque.ting the tnveltiqation.
The i.sue involved wae that the .- we later found out
that the requeeted investigation had not been conducted, and
when we inquired why we learned that the United States
Attorney had told the Bureau not to conduct the inve.tigation.
Mr. Govan. If you recall, at what Itage wa. the
investigation when the request went to the FBI for
investigation?
Mr. Hancock. I'm not sure what you mean by "request."
the FBI to do a particular investigation.
Mr. Govan. Had a lawsuit actually been tiled against
Conecuh County?
Mr. Hancock. believe at that time -- I'm not sure
whether -- we've had I have been unable t.o piece allot
this back toqether, and I've checked my records and I don't
-"h'ave any records on it.
It could have been __ we had a lawsuit -- I'm trying to
'think whether we had two lawsuits -- we did have t.wo lawsuits
.gainst Conecuh County, as I recall now. one involves a
matter under Section 5 ot the Votin? Ri9hta Act, which

80
13
requires pre.clearance of voting changes, and the other

2
matt8.r involved a lawsuit that we filed concerning d18-
2
criminatory treatment that black voters receive when they
• come to the polls to vote in Conecuh County,
• I've had some difficulty resurrecting whether the
•
, investigation at issue was in the one lawsuit or the other.
At times I thought it was one and the other times I thought
• i t was the other,
• Mr. Govan. 00 you ree,!;ll the purpose of t.he
" investigation?
" Mr, Hancock. No. BeC&llS<!l I'm not able to piece it back
12
together, I can't. It was one of two pllrpO.H'S, to ttl", best
13
.. that I can recall. ("1 the ons hand, i t mllY have
gathering information abnut the treatment thdl hlack voter$

been
" receive when they come to vote in Conecuh County.

II
The other issue that i t may have concerned .... as at one
" point in the Section 5 lawsuit, the county presented in court

II
a la.tter that purported t.o grant Section 5 pre-clearance to
II
vQting 'changes, and the letter was an obvious forgery signed
20
by someone on Department stationery.
2t
It was signed with the name of someone who was listed as
ZZ
Assistant Attorney General for Civil ~ights, and the person
..
" had never been Assistant Attorney Genera1'.
never heard Ofi

It was a name we
it was a William Daley or something like that,
" or S9me Daley.

81
. .
But we knew --- 'Ie' teet.ck Inve8Ugato'rll .;. that it
va_nIt. true letter and ",e a.ked the FBI to try and determine
who may have prepared the letter. So what I'm ••y1n9 _. it
wa. one of those two mattera, but t just don't know which one.
Hr. Govan. Did you diaClull this matter with Hr.
Se.8 ione?
Hr. Hancock. I may havlII. don't recall whether
disCUU1Sd i t with Mr. Sessions or notl I may have. In fact,
probably did. t know for It fact that I d180\18 •• d i t with my
supervisors in the Department of JU8tta. and that someone
later dilcu8sed it with Mr. ses.ion8.
Hr. Bergquist. I think it's appropriate to note at this
point that Hr. S.ssions did not have the authority to tell the
FBI not to complete an investigation that's ordered by the
Department of Justice.
Mr. Govan. pardon?
Mr. Bergquist. Mr. Sessions ooe8 not have the authority
to tell the FBI not to p~oceed with an investigation that is

,
or~ered'by the Department of Justice.
Mr. Govan. Mr. Hal\cock, when did you first learn that
Mr. seSlionlha:d at'tempted to intervene in yourrequelt for
an FBI inVlstigation?
Mr. Hancock. My recollection, which is, again, fog9Y,
i ' that I became concerned that I didn't have the results of
the inv,esti9{lt1on and I checked to se. how the Bure{lU wal

82
proeeeding with the investigation, and i t was at that time

z
that I learned that the investigation was not being eonducted.
• Hr. Govan. Who told you that?

• .Mr. Hancock. believe it was theFS! told me that, but
I'm not positive of that.
• Mr. Govan. Headquarters or a field offiee?

7
Mr. Hancock. It would have been the headquarters office
• here in Washington.
• Mr. Govan. And what exactly did they tell you?

10
Mr. Hancock. That the investigation was not being
II
conductedt that the u.s. Attorney had, ! believe, instructed
" the local office not to conduct the investigation.

13
Mr. Govan. DO you know what reasons were offered?
to
Mr. Hancock. No, I don't.
" Mr. Govan. What was your reaponae to that?
" Mr. Hancock. I contacted my ~uperiors to tell them that

'7
.. thought that it Wa.B an investigation that we needed to
.. conduct and that I didn't think it was proper for. the United
s~ates 'Attorney to atop it.
'" Mr. Govan. Who di9 you contact?
•• Mr. Hancock. believe it was Mr, James Turner, who
..
Z2
was -- a9ain/
this, but I
I can't piece the time schedule together on
most likely talked to Mr. Turner about it. It may
have been during' the time before William Bradford Reynolds was
•• confirmed a8 Aesistant Attorney General for Civil Rights.

83
16
And during that time period, Jim Turner was Acting A.~i8t.nt
• Attorney General.
Mr. Govan. Notwith.tandlnq Hr. Bergquist',
• representation which I take to be true that Mr. Sess10ns did
not have authority to intervenG or attempt to intervene in
• the FBI investigation I:'equested by the Civil Rights Division

7
in Washington, you are certain that you were told by the FBI
that the reason they did not conduct the lnv8stiqat1on was
• because of Mr. Sessions' intervention?
Mr. Hanl::oek. I <ii<!n't say it was by the FBI thertll.
think I said by the field offiCe -- by the person in char'le
of these investigations in Washington. That'~ the best of my
recollection, yes.
not conducted at Mr. Sessions' request, can't say with as
much confidence that the FBI told me that or maybe Jeff
Sessions told me that. I don't know. I don't think that's
a matter in dispute, as far as I know.
Mr'. Govan. I hate to be repetitioulil. but did I ask you
did you lilpeak about this problem?
Mr. Hancock. Yes. and I think I lilaid that I may have
spoken to Mr. Sessinns about it at some point in the procelils.
In fact, I recall that I spoke to Mr. Sessionlil about it and

hIi
he confirmed that he thouiht it was an investiiation we should
,not conduct and told the Bureau not to conduct it.
F:
J:!·.'·.·.1.'
84
17
Mr. Govan. Old he offer any reaSons in support of hil

Z
opinion that the investigation should not haVe been conducted?
• Mr. Hancock. He didn't agree with, and I don't know that
• elln give any more det.ils than that. I don't recall
• precisely what he told me. He didn't think it was an
• investigation we could conduct.

7
He may have thought that we were -- I don't knOW what he
•
•. thought.
Wrong tree.
He lr1ay have told me that we were just barking up the
Those weren't his words, but I don't know if he

10
had knowledge of the local eitulltion involved.
11
It's very difficult for me because r'm not even sure
" which investigation it wa$. This matter was resolved very
" quickly and it didn't linger. It was a misunderstanding when

I.
i t arose and it's not unusual to have these kind of mis-
" unde~standings, and we resolved it.
" Mr. Govan. Prior to being told by the FBI that they had
17
not conducted the investigatiOn because ot Mr. Sessions'
." illtervention, had you ever heard tram Mr,
try his'office, any of his assistant U.S.

sessions or anyone
attorneys, with
20
respect to this investi~ation?
.
21
Mr. HancOck.
Mr. Govan.
No .
Would you have eKpeoted to have heard from
..
23
them?
Mr. Hancock. I would have no reason to hear from the

2.
assistant United States attorney about an investigation that
85
"
request, no.
Hr. Govan. Would you expect to have heard troM tho
United States Attorney?
Mr. Hancock. I don't ~. the United States Attorney Is
a copy of every investigation that we request. The
relationship with the United States Attorneys varies greatly
from district to district, and in some instances it's normal
that I talk to U.S. Attorneys about every step we take in
their dist:dct.
In other instances, we have no contact with united States
I can't give you any rules of what would be
Mr. Govan. Other than Mr • .,ames 'l'urn~r, your superior,
you discuss the Mituation with any oth~r colleagues in
Ol·vis'i on i
Mr. Hancock. On, I'm Bure I did. 1 ' m sure I talked
within my office. My immediate supervisor is Gerald
Jones, who's the Chief of the Votin9 Seation, and I'm sure I
i t .... ith .Mr. Jones before I discussed it .... ith Mr.
I do have more recollection of disaussinq it with Mr.
I'm not sure Why that is, but I'm .sure r talked with
Jones about it, also.
Mr. Govan. Based upon your experience in the Division
voting rights caSElS, was Mr. Sessions' intervention

86
19
unusual?
, Mr. Hancock. It's unusual for a U.S. Attorney to tall
the Bureau not to do an investigation that we requested, yes .
• It's not unusullli to have disagreements .... ith United states
Attorneys over how to proceed in civil rights casas .
• Mr. Govan. To the best of your :t'8collection, this

7
investigation would have been conducted prior to the initiatio
e
of either of the two lawsuits?
e,
Mr. Hancock. No, no; not necessarily, no. If i t was
" involving the letter that I mentioned to you -- the letter

II
arose during the trial of the lawsuit, so that would have
" been requested while the litigation was pending.
" If it wes about our lawsuit that we filed concerning
" treatment Of voters at the poll", it w~J\llo have b«lln done
" before the laWBuit wa~ filed.
" Mr. Govan. You stated that you've attempted to recon-

17
struct the paper record of these events. In that attempt,
" wouldn't you have been able to locate the written request to
" the FBI' for an. investigation, and thereby determine which of
20
the two lawsuits this 07curred in?
" Mr. HancocK.. We should be abie to. I have had members
" of my staff check the records in Conecuh County and
"
. Mr. Bergquist.
requests were initiated.

Well, I'm sure both were done,
But you wouldn't know which one

both
" was n' t done.

87
20
Mr, Hancoek. Ky lingering relervation about thia 1a
~thlt I haven't beln able to locate an.PBI requllt eoncerning
the j:.reatment at the poll_ lawsuit. I know that we had the
Bureau -- I ,cont'irllled that we had the Bur••u Investlqlte the
lItter is,lue.
But, Igain, I'~ not trying to be eva.ive with you. but
my recollection 11 r •• lly not cle.r. When I started trying to
put this baek together, I remember the issue, of course,
'bee.uIIG' it was a di'lqreement th.lI.t was not pleasant, Bven
though it WI. resolved qUickly.
But I thought -_ when I first tried to reconstruct it,
thought it was about our suit involvinq treatment of voters
It the polls, but I'm told we never had the Bureau do an
investigation about that.
So if my stllff is ri<j'ht t.hat. we never ~i~J t.hen my
recollect.ion is .... ron9'.
Mr. Govan. You charact.erized t.he eKperience as
un'pleasa.nt.. Why?
Mr~ Hancock. Well, any d~saqreement .... ith a United St.ates
At.torney is unpleasant. Aqain, thou9'h, I'm not suqqestin9'
t~at this ie snythinq outside my normal d~ties. 1 deal .... ith
United States Attorneys and work .... ith' United states Attorneye
on all our lawsuits.
By the vsry nature Of our lawsuits, they are the kind
that raise differinq opinions, particularly amonq local United

88
'1
States Attorneys, and that is one of the reasons that civil
• riqhts casss historically have been handled out of Washington
rather than in the looal United stetes Attorneys offices.
• Mr. GOVa~. The investigation that would have bsen
• requested would have been either a fraudulent letter,
• purportedly eoming from the Chief of the Civil Rights

7
of Justice or disoriminatory treatment of black voters.
• What was the discriminatory treatment being alleged?
• Mr. Hancock. we eventually filed a lawsuit against

10
Conecuh County alleging that black voters were subject to
" discriminatory treatment when they came to vote. Examples
" were that racially derogatory terms were used by poll

13
officials to the black voters) that older black voters were
I.
made to stand in lin~ for 10n9 p~riods of time to vot~,
IS
Whereas older White voters were o!fer~d chairS. The lines
" .were long.

n
Those are the kind of treatment ~- we also challenged
" in the same laWsUit discrimination in selecting persons

IS
pO~l workers. we wsre alleging that they discriminated
~
against black persons who desired to work at the polls,
U
the two were tied toqether .
• Mr. Bergquist, What was the resolution of the suit'

n
Mr. Hancock. The suit was settled by a
u
Mr. Govan. Did you have any particular response when
u
found out that the investigation had not occurred because 0
89
23
discussion with Se.8ions, deeided to atop i t on its own end
thIn 8.1d, we stopped it bee,us' we tAlked with Mr. S8'810n8.
The FaI should also know that Hr. S8s810n8 doesn't ha ...e
the authority to stop investigations requested by the
Oepartment of Justice. So that's something we c~n naIl down
very quickly.
Mr. Govan. If I could just follo .... 'up on Mr. Bel"9Quist's
comment, it's, my underetanding. Mr. HancOck, thillt you did
apeak to ~r. ses8ion8 and that Hr. S••• 10n8 noted ~~ during
that conversation, he noted hi. disagreement with the
investigation and didn't reel it ...... a good idea, and this
. conversation took pillee after you had learned from the FBI
that the investigation had not been don~.
Mr. H~ncock. Yes.
Mr. Govan. Have you had any othe-r ,int.uactions ... ith Mr.
Mr. Hancock. Oh, sure, yes. I've dealt with him on all
the la.... suits that .... e·ve brought in the Southern District of
A~abam~.
Mr. GOVan. Have Y9U ever had an experience with Hr.
on those la ...suits similaF to this experience?
Mr. Ha.ncock. No, no. Mr. sesaions haa been very
Cooperative and has not interfered with our litigation
In the Southern District of Alabama, we've
probably brought -- I don't know of any jUdicial district in

90
24
the country where we've brouqht more cases.

z
~r. Bergquist. Would you Characteri~e it more than just
z
not interfered? Hss he been cooperative?
Mr. Hancock. Yes, and we often had to ask sesistance
• from his office to get pleadinge filed at the last minute.
• Mr. Bergquist. Has he been cooperative in al,1 ventures?

7
Mr. Hancock. Yes, yes. He has made the stsff and
• himself available to sign pleadings when needed. If we have
to get something filed or if we have anything that needs to

10
be done, he has regularly been a very good help to us in
11
getting things done.
" Mr. Bergquist. So you see no resistance on his part to

13
civil rights litigants, in general?
14
Mr. Govan. Ken, I'm going to obj~ct ~o that questJ,on,
" in all candor. I mean, you're really here to o~~~rve
II
Mr. Bergquist. No. I'm here to protect the interests
17
of the Department,
II
Mr. Govan. understand, ~ut Mr. Sessions can ~e asked
II
tJ:lat question" and it seems to me
20
Mr. BergqUist. No, he can't be asked that question.
..
Z1
can be asked that question .
Mr. Govan. I think, in all ser'iousness, I'm .;oing to
." object. You have a much more limited role .
Mr. Bergquist. Well. I won't ask that question, then.

II
Mr. Klonoski. We can ask him at the hearin.;.
91
22
Mr. sessions' intervention w'ith the FBI?
Mr. Hancook. I'm not sure what you're getting It; My
response was to note my diSagreement with what he had done to
my superiors, and we resolved it.
Mr. Bergquist. How was it resolved?
Mr. Hancock. The investigation went ahead. we talked
to Mr. Sessions. I talked to Hr. sessions and others Inay have
talked to him. don't recall whether Mr, Turner talked to
Ilomeone from the Attorney Genersl's offioe talked to
don't know.
But it was agreed tha~ it was our call and that the
investigation would gO forwarc!.
Mr. GOvan. Were you anqryr
Mr. Hancock. I Wo!lS an\lry wh~n learned that the
investigation had been stopped, yes. I was pleased When we
it quickly.
Hr. Govan. Frank, do you have any questions?
loll'. Klonoski. The only ,thing I wanted to ask WAS waa
Ses"aions awal'e that he could or could not stop an
loll'. Hancock. don't know.
Mr. Klonoskl, That's all I have.
loll', Bel'gquist. Now, again, we have not established
did or did not stop it. That'S what the
Now, we don't know Whether the FBI, in

92
2S
Mr • • er9Quist.. No. 1 mean. ask him. How is Mr.
• S••• ione 901n9 to be able to charaoteri •• it from someone
• el •• ? 'hi question wa. vhether h••••med oOoperative,
• Mr~ Govan. And he answlred the question. HI •• id, ye.,
• he'. very oooperative. He signa pleadinga, he make. aure
• filings are done on time. arid h. hal regularly offered

7
aleiatanoe to the Civil Rights Division. The question wa.
• answered.
,.
• Mr.
I~r.
Berqquiat.
Covan.
Okay, I'll settle for t.hllt..
would think 10.

II
HIVe yOU ever heard Mr, Se'aions make remarks that you
" would oonlider to be racial1V insensitive?
.
" Mr.
~:r.
Han~oek.
Govan,
No, 1 have not •
Have yOU ever heard othtlca !lpl'ak of Mr.
"
II
Sessions having made such remarks?
Hr. Hanood:. Well, I have heard third and fourth-hand

17
that remarks have beGn made, but i t ' . hearsay upon hearsay
II
upo~ h.arl~y, and I don't have any kno~l.dge of my own.
to
have'had, actually, limited dealing_ with Jeff Session ••
II
have talked to hi~ a~out lawsuit., and that'. all.
." haVen't talked to hllfl about' anything ~here I would
any opinions of ~y own about his personal fee11ngs,

u
u
. what you're getting at •
Mr, Govan. Ihavl! nothing else.
Mr. Bergquist. paUl, thank. very auch.

,93
"
Mr. Hancock, Thank you all.
Mr. GOvan. Thanks.
(WhereupQn, the -ll}:)ove·entitled testimony WIlS, concluded.)

94
27
Whereu.pon_
• J. GERALD HB8ER~
• va. callad . . . . vitnaaa "nd, "avinq previously baen'duly

4
.worn, t&atlfled as fellow81
i
Mr. Govan. Good afternoon i My name i . Reggie Gavan and
• work for Sonator Bidan and the Judiciary Committae. Let me

7
firat otart off by explaining that Frank and I work for the
• Committe. and we are involved in preparinq fOf the
• confirmation boaring of Jefferoon So.sions to tb. United

to
District Court in Alabama. That bearing il Ichadulad for
11
tOmorrOw.
12
Let me first .stablish that you and I did have .. tele'
It
phone conversation eOmQ ti~e last week. is that correct?
14
Nt. Hebert, Yes.
ts
Mr, Govan. And during that ~onveraationl y~u confirm~d
Ie
that you had spoken with a Mr. Fiak, who you identifiad a.
17"
the U.R. Attorney for the Southern District ot New York or
18
formsr U.S. Attorney for the Routhern District of New York?
II
Hr, Hebert. I think thatts the name; yes. That's wh~t
20
21
22
2J
Z4
21
95
28
Mr. Fisk dealt with jUdicial temperament and attitudes about
race. We started out, as I recall, the Convertetion with him
asking ~e about cases that we had worked on together.
Mr. Govan. And during that conversation, you were
unwilling. were you not, to share with me the substance of
your experience with Mi. Sesslons?
Mr. Bergquist, Let me again break in to say that by
doing so, he wes following departmental policy that any time
you are contacted by someone from the Hill, all such contact
must be cleared through my office before you are allowed to
answer any questions.
Mr. Govan, Fair enough.
Mr. Hebert. I did indicate that I would think it would
be inappro~riatc ~or me to reveal the substanc~ of m;
conversation wJth the ABA representative that had CDllta~t~o
u.
Mr. Gavan. And I told yOU I respected that conclusion,
10 that correct?
MT. Hebert. ~ou did, ;ight.
Mr. Govan. How long have you been aSSOciated or employe
by the Department of Justice?
Mr. Hebert. Since Auqust of 1973.
Mr, Govan. Did you coma to the Department right when
you graduat~d law schOOl?
Mr. Hebert. Yes.

96
29
Mr. Govan. What are your responsibilities?

, He. Hebert. I'm senior trial attorney 1n the Civil
• Riihtl Oiv!lion, working within the Voting Section, although

4
haven1t spent my 13 years all in the Voting Section. But
• have .pent all of my time Within the Civil Rights Division.
• Hr. Govan. Has your interaetion with Mr. S88sions

7
occurred ainc8 you've been 4siiqned to the Votinq Rights
• Section?
• Me. Hebert. 'tes.
" He. Govan. And what has been yOur interaction with
..
" Mr. SeSsions?
. Me. Hebert. I have been tha lead trial attorney
Justiee Department in approximately five or six easel in the
.." Southern District of Alabama,
under the Voting Rights Act

c~ses
'whflr~
allot whiCh haVe arlscfi
the United ~tates h~s been
" the plaintiff.

17
All of my contact with Jeff Sessions has been in
." connection with my handling of those cases.
~onsiderable
I'vi spent
amount of time in Mobile in 1981, for example.

SO
I haven't examined my travel records, but I think they would
,.
... show I spent the greater part of 'two months in Mobile trying
two cales in the U.S. District court there .
.
SO
Mr. Govan.
with Mr. Sese ions,

HOW would you characterize your interaction
you know, through the yaars in whioh you'v
been doing easel in the Southern District?

97
30
Mr. Hebert. Well, when he first took over the U.S.
Attorney', office, i t was II little different, I quees, _than
it is now. We, right now, have what I consider to be a
pretty good working relation$hip, and in terms of our
personalities, I think we qet along fairly well.
We have different viewa on a lot of things, but we're
able to put those Bside when it comes to doing dep~rtmQntal
business. When we started out back in 1901, I remember there
being Borne countering from Jeff, a little opposition to what
the Division wanted to do, and having II number of
conversations with him in his office in Mobile about his
eSSential unwilli'IQne~~ to qO forward with Borne things -- or
reluctanc~ more tha~ n~wilringnessj 1 guess.
Mr. Gnvnr.. HI""" <'lid that reluct8rlCe to go alon" with
Department initiativQ~ manifest itselfi
Mr. Hebert. Well, mostly, it was wher9 we were getting
ready to -- as ! r~cal1, the case I have in mind was in the
Mobile cases, w~ had intervened in the Mobile voting rights
"ases.
There were two of them, one in the fall of 1980 and the
other in the spring of 1981, bPth of which went to trial in
the spring of 19B1. ~nd J think Jeff made it pretty clear
that he didn't really think that these cases had much merit.
But he said he recognized that there were cases the
Department had decided as a policy matter it was going to get

98
11
involvud In Qnd that ther~ wasn't very much he could do

, it.
• Mr. Govan. What, to the best of your recollection, did
• Mr. Sessions say?

s Mr. lIebert, I don't know if 1 can recall, you
• was s~~d., I JUSt remember the gist of what he said was that
7
he didn't think these cases had merit. When I say ~thcso
• casas,u I'm referring to cases brought challenqing tIle at-
• large election systems, which Is what the two cases

10
~ou may recall -- I just remembered .- you may recall
" that ~round that time period _. if you looked into the
" cases at all, you'll remember that thefa was a big flare-up
"
. between Senator Denton, who criticized the JustiCe Depart-
ment's filing of an amended complaint in the Mobile case

IS
boca\llll.' it <::ontl\ined tht:' term "wllite aupre~l\eYI" snd we w6r"
IS
sskcdtn dcl~te that reference in the cornplnint by Scnato~
"
" General '\lI\lth.
" ~ld ! tlllilk it W~9 in 2onn~ction with my discussion
" Jeff on that th~t ,we started talking a~Dut the merits of
..
21
ease s •
Mr. Govan. Co you recall Mr. Sessions expressing .-
making any expression with respect to the dispute raieed Cy
"
2S
senator Denton about thQ term "white sUJ:'remacy" bein9
contain~d in a Justice Cepartment pleading?

99
Nr. Ileb~rt. r remember we had a Convcr~ation about

th" t.
really dOn't remember what he said, though, but
remember we talked about it.

had spoken with Joff durin9
IS81 oh a lot of oCcasions, and
have since, BO it's hard
fOr me to really remember what he said about it.
I do remember that I had a conversation with him, though,
about Senator Denton's ~nsi~tence that we change the
complaint. In fact, the complaint was changed. t don't even
khowif Jeff gotinvolvsd in it at all, but a new complaint
was filed <:leleting l;'Sferencea to White supremacy and we werit
forward with th~ case and we won it.
Mr. Govan. I'm aWare tho!lt you WOn the case. Do You
rec~ll him ~xpressing any views or o~inion about the Use of
the term "white supremacy" in the brief?
Mr. lIebert. No, I don't.
Mr. Gov~n. Have you ever he~rd Mr. 5essions express any
Mr. Ilebert. No, no.

We've talked a lot about blacks I
'"' wh<to, ' " ' wh,t po,i"o,' n,y oo,ht " 00,"". bo< ",vee j_
never said anything about'white supremacy.
Mr, GOVan, Let's take a break.
Mr, Govan, How would you Characterize your discus8ions
Mr. Sessions concerning the positions blacks and Whites

100
Jl
Mr. Hebert. we had, a numl:HH of conversltiollB about
voting casea and civil ri9hts cases, and Jeff Is a vory
• amiable individual. He's friendly, and he has alway. been
• friendly to me, despite the fact that we haven't seen eye to
• eye on some things,
• But that has never stopped him frOm inviting me into his
7
office and talking very frankly about what h.is opiniOns were.
• And we talked about voting Cllses and civil rights caSeB
• generally, busing cases, and the role of public interest
" groups and, you know, how far you really should 90 in civil
" right. cases,
" And I think he has ,aXpressed hie opinion to me nllmerOU'B
" times about that. He has a tendency to pop off, I qusss
" would be tIle best way to put it. sometimes about his
" Ije'l! an oplnionatQcl indi·ddual.
" I Ilave to also vut it in the contaxt of the fact that h~
" and r get alonq prntty well.
" t~r.' Govan. Okay.
" Mr. Habert. rt'$ not llke he's an antagOnist.

zo Mr. Govan. Has M~. Sessions exp~esaed an opinion
It
about buslnq cases?
II
Mr. Heber~. Yes.
.
II
II
Mr. Govan.
Mr. lIebert.
What i . his opinion?
Hs thi.nqs businqcases have 90ne too
He told me he thought that we are really making a mistake

,,101
"
driviog White people out of public education.
Mr. GOvan. !las he exprelHlsd an opinion to you about
voting rights cases?
Mr. Hebert. ~e8. I would say we've talked about voting
casas in particular. We've said about how remember
having a conversation with himl I'm trying to think if it
was not Voting Rights Act oasBs, I wouldn't say, actually,
now that 1 think about it.
We were talking about voter fraud caSBS, not about, you
know, VOting Rights Act, but the type or cases I
traditionally handle. don't get involved in voter fraud
very much.
Mr. Govan. What did Mr. Sessions Bay to yo~ with
respect to voter fraud cases?
ne0dcd to make ~ure that if anybody viOlated the law tllat ww
worcgo.tllg to prosocutc them. w]leth<.lr t)wy \H!re bl/lck or wliil'
It really didn't matter to him.
It didn't matter, really, how it had h,appened in tho pail
;,either, lle said under his administration, he was 90in9 to
prosecute people for voter fraud.
Mr. Govan. Was there anything that he .. aid that you
dis~qrl!ed with?
Mr. ~ebcrt. Not on that, no, It was in connection
with the Albert Turner case, whi~h wall just ready to go to

102
"
, trial at that point,
of hi. ~8.i.t.nt.
when
was there
\''''0 till ked about voter fraud.
durin~ that ~onverB.tion.

01'10
, Mr. Govan, And who wa. that?
• Mr. Hobert. I think hi. name was E. T. Rollison.

• Mr. Govan. And durinq that conver.4tio~. did Mr.
• Sessions acxnowlodge that there hll:d been voter fraud- in the

7
past?
• Mr. Hebert. Well, he didn't say whether there had
,.
• or nct. I made the point to him that with regard to
prosecution of cases like Albert Turner that there was a
" cencern among a lot of blacke that these are the types of
" things that had been happening before by whites, and that
". now that black. were starting to occupy positicns of
political power in the black belt of Alabama, they suddenly
." wero ~ep.inq
AI\<:\ I
themBelvos being prosecuted .
thoulJht there was a lot of resentment llnd 1
" him about that, ~nd it was at that point he aaid, wall, i~
" raally didn't matter to him whether it had happelHld bEffore
" o.r not', If they lIiolated the law, he was the u.s. AttorneY
zo
ana he was 901n9 to proleoute them. That's all Ireme~be~,
." Mr. Govan. Has ~lr. Sessions'~'"
s.s.ions made about the role of public interest groupe?

what comments has Mr l!
.
II
Hr. Hebert. Well, it was about
talkinq about voting rights cases, in particuillr.

~. I quess w. were
As I
recall, we had talked about the Mobile c •• e and he •• 1d

J03
that -- we wers talking about, in f~ct, tho private lawyers
who had handled the Mobile csss and how they __ I had mentione
to him how diffiCUlt! thought it was for people in the
private bar to take on a major civil rights case in a city
like Mobile because they underwent a lot of treatment by
fallow members of the bar that seemed to

they seemed to be
snu_bbed Or looked down on fOr having_done it.
mentiOned to him that 1 had, in fact, heard that one
of the judges- had referred to one of the White lawyers for
the plaintiffs as being a disgrace to his fAce for doing it.
And I said I didn't know whethclr it was true, but, YOU know,
had heard that that was said.
Mr. GOvan, And what was Mr. Sessions' response?
Mr. Rebert. He said, well, maybe he ~s.
Mr. Govan. Who was tho attor,\~y th~t tllay WQra talki,\u
abOut th~t_was heinW reforrad to?
Mr. Govan. What's his nama?
~I~. !-Jebet,t. Could 1 conSUlt with this 9c,lltlel'1an just

a minute?
Mt. Govan. SUts.
Mr. Hebetl. The lawyer's name is James BlaCKshire.
Mr. Govan. And is he ,White or blll.ck?
Mr. Hebert. He's White.
Mr. Bergquist. Was this a federal judge who said that?

104
37
Mr. Hebort. ~epQrtedly.
• Mr. Govan. I\l1d Mr. Sessions llIake any reSponse to you 'ill
any other way with respect to that?
• Mr. Hebert. IHth respect to Mr. Blackahire?
• Mr. Govan. Yes.
• Mr. liebert. No.
7
Mr. Govan. Di~ you understand Mr. Sessions to be jokinq~
• Mr. Hebert. I couldn't tell, to be honest with you, 1
• COUldn't tell.
10 Mr. Govan. Did you laugh?
" Mr. Hebert. ~o. I remember reporting it to my co.

12
counsel, who vas down the hall in the library at the U,S.
" Attorney's office.
" Mr. Govan. Did Mr. sessions laugh at the comment?
.
" Mr.
Mr.
Ilebort.
Govan.
110 smiled I he didn't laugh •
And you're certain that tho remark that

17
had hc~rd was th~t judqe ~K· considered Mr, alackshire a
18
...,
18
Mr, IlClb(lrt. Yes, that'll what I hlld heard the judge
said abnut Mr. alack~hire •
Mr. Govan. And Mr. Sellllionll.' response, the bellt you

zz recall, was maybe he is?
ZJ
Mr. Hebert. Yes, that'll what he udd,
Z4
Mr. Govan. Has Mr. Seeeionll made any comments
., specifically about the role of public interest groups as
,105
JO
opposed to privata civil riyhts ~ttorneYSt
Mr. lIebert. We IoIere talking about the NAACP and tho
ACLU, in particular.
Mr, Govan. were they involved in either of these cases?

• Mr. Hebert. I believe that the Mobile voting Cases that
Mr, Blackshire handled were, in part, financed by the NAACP
Legsl Defense Fund, although I'm not certain what arrangement
they had. But it wa~ my understanding the NAACP was
involved.
It wse in the context of my talking to Jeff about the
NAACP that he made worne comments about the NAACP and ths ACtU
Mr. Govan. l~hat wers the .QD.rnments?
Mr. Hebert. He said he thought that they were un-
American.
Mr. Govan. Did hn give a reason fOr his belietr
Nr. Hebert. lie said th~t he thought they did more hsrm
the throats of people who wcr~tryinq to put probl~ms bDhind
them. .
He. Govan. Let's take another break, please.
(Pause,)
Hr. Govan. What was your response to those comments?
Hr. Hebert. ! don't know that I actually had a response
pro.babl y I think I followed it up, as I recall, because
,remember us talkin9 about it for a qoed five or six~minuto

106
J9
interval, !.
,
50 1 don't know whether I said, you know, know you
, don't mean that or, you know; what do you mean by that.
• remember U8 continuing to talk about it.
• Mr. Govan. Is this an Bxample of the type of view that
• you and Mr. Sessions did not share?

7
Mr. Hebert. Yes. In fact, I think I told him that 1
• WAS asked to become a member of the NAACP by my local chapter
• ju~t around that eame time period,
" Mr. GOVAn. Did he have any reSponse to that?
" Mr. Hebert. No, he didn't makl! any response that I "lln;
12
remember.
." Mr. Govan. Did Mr. Sessions m.ake any remarks about any
organizations other than the NAACP or the ACLU that you

". rl~cal1?
" Mr. Hobert. In the context of talking about it at that

17
.
. they were ull-Ame~icanl I remember him using that word .
remember him s~yin~ that the~ were either communist.il\~pjr~d

20
again, he's m~de that comment to me two or three times,
2.
don't know that it was during that conversation that he
..
22
·that word or whether he used like "un-American" at that
and maybe at a later conveisation said they were .- I
. add that when he made that comment about the NAACP on one
the occasions. he sott of ribbed me about it and followed
(
107
40
up by s-'\ying, well, of course, you already know hOW I f(;l~l
on that, and he just laughed.
might add, you know, just while we're talking about it
that just talked with Jeff not too long ~90 and X reminded
h1m that I had talked to the ABA and he said, you know,
know that I've said some things to you, you know, where
spout off I I hnVe 4 tendency to do that.
YQU know, he's told me, you know, I know that you know
the things I've said and I -~
Mr. Govan. When did you have this conversatiOn with Mr.
Sessions?
Mr. Hebert. Friday! this past Friday. I had a telephOne
oonversation with hi~ about a matter we were handling in the
Southern District.
Nr. Govan. Did you 0,\11 him or did lie call you~
Mr. Hebert. I think I called him.
tlr. (,;ovall. About jlr",sQl1t l1tigation?
Mr. Hebert. U.S. versus Dallas COUnty Commission.
~~8 asking his opinion about a possible perjury investigation
that I thought the Departmentou9h~ tQ look into.

Mr. Govan. You're absolutely certain that Mr. Sessions
Mr. Hebert. I'm Bure that I called him.

,108
41
Mr, Govan. Waa it Friday mornin9 or Friday afternoon?

2
think it Wft$ Friday afternoon.
3
me today, also, but wasn't able to talk with him beeause I
• was just about to get in the elevator to come over here. I'
3
promised to send him some tranacripts Of this eonflicting
• , .,:1 ..
testimOny from the Dallas County ease.
7
Mr. Govan. In the eourse of your workings with Mr.
• Sessions, in YOUf opinion has Mr. Sessions' professional
• conduct ever been affected by these remarkS, Whether said
" jest or whether evidencing any serious belief in this?
.
"
cases.
Mr, Hebert. \~ell, he hasn't interfered in any of my
That would include the Dallas County caBS and the
" Marinqo County. case and the two Mobile cases, the Conecuh
" County case that worked on, or the Monroe County case is
" gOt involved in, or Pritchard-Alabam~,
" another case I h~d in his district.
" lie has n~~er, y011 know, intecfored witll mti 1"
" those cases. He hasn't had much to do with them.
" Mr. Govan. llave you ever experienced difficulty in
.
2D
cooperation with Mr.
~r. Hebert. No,

Se~sions'
nO.
office?
In fAc~, I've been able to call
.
Z2
on the phone and ask J.ff if I
secretary that needed to be filed Within the

could dictate a paper to
" been willing to help me out. Th"t just h"ppened .... it':in. th
" last t .... o months.

109
Nt'. Govan. DO you know whether Me's failed to cooperate
or hils interfered in cllses of other assistants in the Justice

Department?
Mr. Ilebert. Well, I only know what happen~d with our
Conecuh County Cllse, but PaUl Hancock is in /I better positiOn
to talk about thllt thlln ! am.
Mr. Govan. Oltay, fair enough.
Mr. Hebert, Paul and I had talked about it /lnd he and
both have II very fUZZy recollection about Conecuh County.
W/IS Paul's elise primarily.
Mr. Govan. You talked earlier about your viewl and
sessions', /lnd you have di!ferentcpinions with respect

and the position that bl'cke Ind whitos Ought to
Is your opinion about that differenc~ based upon the
COrnmQntR thllt you've r~lated to us today?
Mr. Hebert. In part. we've h~d conversationti in whiuh
'v~ talked about whether or not the riyht to VOte includc~
right to register and to cast the ballot or whether
i t ought to alao inclu~e the riqht to have that ballot
I!leanin'a'ful.
And it was in the context, rthink, really of that
l'cone:ept that we. haVe, I think, a pretty different opinion
ab¢ut whether black. a8 a qroup have equal political
opportunity within a juri.diction.

110
.,
Mr. GOvan. And I take it you're referring to voter
dilution casss that are brought usually under Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act?

• Mr; Hebert. Riq~t, those are th~ ones.
Mr. GoVan. And what has been, or is, Mr. Sessions'
•
, opinion with respect to the efficacy of Section 2 cases?
Mr, Hebert. Frankly, I don't think he understands what
• dilution Is. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of people on"

• the tederalbench who seem to have that same view. They
" don't understand how--if you can reqister and YOu can go to
" the polls and vote, Why the Voting Rights Act ought to give
II
you anything more than that.
" Mr. Govan. Has Mr. sessions ever expressed an opinion

I.
that the way in which wards or precinct lines are drawn is
" !rrel~vant to thc determination of Whether people have An
" effective rigl\t to !,arti~i~Atc7
" Mr, llebert. No, I thin_ he's of the view -- at least
" in conversations witll ma, I've gotten the impression that
" t~in_s' that gerrymandering for racially discriminatory

ro
reasons is a definite way that you can harm blac.k voters,
"u think he understands that.
That',! a fairly simple concept. It's really the

• dilution questions that I think are a little tougher for
• to understand.
Mr. Govan. And by »dilution questions,» you ~ean

1ll
44
the Department's ehallenqlny of the at·larqe
electoral schemes in some counties in Alabama, 10 the S~uther
of Alabama?
Mr. Hebert', Riqht.
Mr. Govan. Has the DePartment. in fact. won moat of
Hr. Hebert. We have .- do you vant me to stoP?
Hr. Bergquist. No, if you're t.lking about (aSe, that
are already do~c. You can't talk about ono, that afe ~~
Mr. Habert. We've prevailed in the two Mobile cBses
mentioned, and We obtained II consent decree in the Conecuh
County case, although that waa not II dilution caSe. The two
Casea were dilution cases.
We obtained just II week &go Friday II ru1in9 from the
bench a~ter the trial in Selma in the Dallas County casc in
our favor, and We obtained II successful judgmont against th~
Marlnqo County Commil'lsioll and School Board l,ast l'i<.lpternbor
a trial that I handled in those c~s~s.

112
Mr. lIebert. Part of the Dallas County case remains

2 pe,nding.
2 11r. Govan. So your conclusion that Mr'. Sessions is

, reluctant in his support for some of the civil rights
• initiatives of the Oepartment of Justice.is based upon
• conunents that he made to you, that he did not think it ~Ia$
7 appropriate to be filing the challenge to the Mobile at-
• large electoral seat?
,.
• Mr. Hebert. I don't know if it was just
think, you know, just on conversations have had

~~bile.
I"li th hiD
over a four- or five-year period. that is the impression

"
12 get, that he doesn't think these cases have much marit.
" r·lr. Gov~n. Arc there any other comments that I-lr.
14 Sessions hau made that :Iou wOl',ld characterize as racially
15 insansitiv~?
" ~'r. JJobert. t~i!ll. J have already given some.
~ir.
" C;ov,1n. !IrQ there any other!!?
m', lIebert. I Cem't recall any specific comr,lents he 'h

" Ii·
wile~ we talkJ.
.
18
21
made. ,As I say, the general- impression
about racial questions is that he is not a very r.ensitive,n
petson when it comes to race relations.

:r get
. l1r.
Hr..
Govall,
liebert,
Do you }:now Mr. Blackshire?
Yea, I do quite ,,,ell.

v:'
"
~
11',
IIR. Govan. lI~s Mr. Blac;kshire ever been • partiCiPa~~III·
21 in diucussions or meetings in which you and I"" . Sessions
113
have participated?
~~. Hebert. Not any involving questions about either
Mr. Blackshire or race discrimination cases. ~~. Blackshire

perhaps ClUTle into the U.S. Attorneys office in l-bbile ,...hen I
was there 4S the department's attorney on the voting cases
that came in to me.
Mr. Govan. And so' you wer~ essentially co-counsel Hith
the NAACP in the ~bbile case?
Nr. !lebert. IJe intervened as the plaintiff, They Nerc::
the original plaintiffs, They had brought that casein 1975.
We interven~d in 1981.
Mr. Govan. Have you ever hoard make any remarks about
the National Council of Churches?
Mr. Hebert. No. have not.
:11'. Govan. llave you ever IIClard him r'lake remarks about
any other group that you consicler to be active in behalf of
liberal, pr'o9rcssiva, civil riQhts iRsues, ~\lshinq for' aoci:I.I
change. issues of race or soci~l' justice?
Mr. Heb~rt. ha'~n't heard him say anythinq about an
organlzation thAt can remember.
Mr. Govan. lIave you ever beard Mr. Session's make a

,·;,remark about the Klan?
Mr.- Hebert. Only perhaps in making a COl'lllnent, ,tome about
,how they are going to have a Klan prosecution in his distrie~.
I!omething like ,that.

114
"
Mr. Govan. Do you recall the context of that having
• come up?
, Mr.' Hebert. No, 1 can't, my recollection 113 vary
• Mr. Govan. 00 you recall him being proud of that
• prosecution?
• Mr. Hebert. I really don't rernember much about it.
7 1 think something may have been said to that effact.
• Mr. Bergquist. We have got the two Klan experts
• Hr. Govan. Experts on what? Their experts is based
to what? That determines on whether I want to stay or not-,

./
Mr. Bergquist. prosecutin1, the cl~ims.
"
" Mr. GOvan. Frank?
" Nr. Klonoski. I don't have! anyti1ing..
" Mr. Bergqui~t. Let me as~ one brief qU~dtion.
IS seem like Nr. Sessions likes to engage in contcmtious debatf:>
" on a friendly basis?

I
" ,"'lr. Hebert. I would ,ay th.:lt is true. He ami I -get
. along VP.).-y \~oll.

\
rolF. Does he"like to throw a couple stinq~rs

" Bergquist.
so at you to get you to deba.te, you know, h. just likes to
.
"
u
down and talk?
Mr. Hebert.
,
Ho fmjoyu discourse in his office '0 yo~
i'
een just sort of roll your sleeves up .nd eay let's
.
'u this fact that, you know, you are down here from Washinqt?";
this big official .1usHee Pepartment, I am the tl.S, Attor~e-;
\.
115
48
let's talk one lawyor to.mother or from ono porson to
other.
Mr. Bergquist. lie seems to .enjoy that.?
Hr. lIebert. lie does.
nr. Bergquist. Does he
Mr. Hebe~t. There is A judge down in that district who
very similar already in doing that with me personally and
would say that Jeff is very similar.
~lr. Bergquist. Let me just ask -~
Hr. Hebert. lIe is engaging, I gueSfl would be the best
to put it.
fir. Bergquist. Bernie Katz touched on it, but let me
you specifically. In your dealings with him, has h<i! done
anything improper as far as handling cases. or anything like
Mr.. lIobert. The only thing that I know about is the
County caGe. In terms of handling the Dall<Js COllnti'
the r~aringo County case or the 1-lobile cases, he has
anything to interfere with my prosecution of those
Mr. Govan. In facti you consider you and he have a

,er~ain camaraderie. a rapport with one another. what rou
obvious differences?
! 3 .. Mr. Hebert. would hope we do. I don't know i f he
I think we do.
"
Mr.. Covan. And notwithstanding -that camaraderie, nr.
2 Sessions talked to you this past Friday about remarks thll't
he may have mad~?
• 11r. Hebert. Right. and it \'laltn't in response to my
5 saying. you know, he once called the liAACP this or he once
• said blacks are that. It was, you know --
7 that I received a call from you and he brougl\t up the 000-
8 firmation case in a conversation, at the end'of our conver-
• satian about the further questions, and he said I am goinq
10 to be up in your neighborhood this week and I sai~ I would
11 try to get together with him ~lhen he came up.
" ~Ir. Bergquist, Mr. Sessions does not know tha\ he is

13 coming and __
" 11r. Hebert. NO problem.
" fIr. 13crgqui!lt. Okay. am just telling you that he
16 does /lot knO~I.
17 Hr. HGbert. I apprecii'\tc it.
And hOl1 did ~!r.· Sessions characterize el"t'll

" t'lr. Govan.
19 his re,r,lark!l or \~hat he perceived to bel, the implications'{j(i
20 his remarks?
" Hr. Hebert. I don"t really kno\". All I can tell
22 what he ~aid to me Qn the phone, and that was he said,
11 know, you and I have had a lot of conversations 'over the "
.
24 years and, you knol", I have a tendency to pop off,.
the exact words he used . said I know, and I said

That
il7
50
~ you before that I had talked to the ABA about some of those
very things.
~Ir. Govan. You have already discuaseu with Hr.
Sessions
Mr. Hebert. I had \iIi-eady mentioned 'to him shortly
a,fter Mr. Fisk had called.
Mr. Govan. During the conversation you had I,'ith hr.
l;e88ion8, did he mentioned whether he had spoken with me
that Friday?
Ilr. Hebert. No, he didn't say al~ythin9' r thin/: I
mentioned your name.

Hr. Klonoski. During the conversation, did 'na ask. you
to tell everybody about these comm~nts he had made or --
Mr. Hebert. No, no, not at all.

Nc. Bergquist. Has anyone slOked you not to reveal any
the --
I·lr. /Iebert. No. no. In fact, just the oppositC!. rhc',!
me to tell the truth and teil evorything I kno~', and .T
'tried to do that.
"lr. Govan. How much money do you have in your ,pockGt?
tLaughterJ
Thanks a lot';
Mr. Hebert. Okay.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled testimony was concluded.)

us
51
TI;S'rIMONY OF IIL!:E!~T S. GLENN

, Mr. GOVL;;'l. We have not met or tall:ad before, ia that
, COrrect?
• Mr. Glann. That's correct .
• .Jlr\. Govan. My name is, Reggie Govan and 1 am Minority
I Counsel and investigator for tho Judlciary Committee and 1;
1 work for Senator Biden's staff.
• We are ~- the committee is preparing for

9 hearing on Mr. Jefferson Sessions' nomination
10 District of Alabama. Are You awarG of that?
11 M,. Glenn. I am.
" '" . Govan. And have you had an OCCAsion to work with
/1r. Sessions?
"
I. ~lr . Glenn. I havfI.
15 Me Govan. In what capacity?
16 /-1r. Glenn. As a trial attorney for the U.S. Departm~nt
17 of ,Justice, Criminal Section, pursuln9 nil investigntion
II the Southern Diytrict of Alabama',
MX. Govan. How long have you been employed by the

"
20 Rights Division or the Department of Justice generally?
Mr. Glenn. The answer is the same for

"
22 1982, is my starting- date .. an<3, I .have .worked conUnuously
ZJ since then.
Mr~ Berqquist. Let me make one remark. If you a~e.
2$ asked about cases that are still under litigation. you

119
'"
refuse to answer.
Mr. Glenn. underat:and~
Mr. Bergquist. But if the cast has cornpletedlitigation
can di~euss them.
Mr. Govan~ Did you join the department immediately
upon graduating from law school?
l"-r. :Glenn. No.

Mr. Govan. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Glenn. l' worked for a Senior United States District
Judge for the District of Oregon.
~lr. Govan. Is that right? Nhich Judge, Solomon?
"lr. Glenn. IH11 h,r.l

Mr. Govan. Okay. There is a Solomon; isn't there?
Mr. C;lenn. He is also a senior judga. lie is quite a
charactC!r.
Nr', Govan. Off tlle record, people from Oregon are
gener~llY characters.
(Laughter)
wbat caseR have you worked on with Mr. SessionRl'

Mr. alcnn. It was the ,investigation of circumstances
death of ftichaelDonald.
Mr. Govan. What was'your role~-in the'Donald case?
Mr. Glenn. I willpretace my remarks 'here by aayinq
believe this time it is still an open invest1qat1on,there
remain to be made concetn1nq what 101111
,120
53
happen in this ~nvestiqation, so I can only
2 Mr. Uergquist. You may-,remark -- does this refer to
any litigation at all?
.. Mr. Glenn. It is a criminal investigation.
S Mr. Bergquist. know, but has it gone to liti9atiori~'
• Ilas it actually gone to trial, any portion of it?
7 Mr. Glenn. It has not. There is an on-going grand
8 investigation .
• Mr. Govan. There is in fact also a part of the caso
10 that was closed?
" Mr. Gl~nn. There have been Borne' public matters
" this case --
" Hr. Bergquist. You may discuss those aspects of it.
Mr. Clenn. All right.

"
t~hat involv<:!n1Gnt have YOll hild ~lith 'l\lr,
" Ml:. Govan.
Sessions in the Donald case?

"
" :'lr, 1;10nn, He is the Unito<lc !iti1tes l\ttQr.nc)' in thu'
District of Alabama. Ne, in conjunction

"
his offica inv£!stigaterl that'case and cond\lct£!d tho <:;rtlncl'"
"
2' jury invotitigation. Mr. Sessions was
21 continually appricEld of the direct'ion of the
22 what was happening. While not attending all of the
2' the investigation, he was fully on top of 'it, so it
..
2A that capacity.
11r. Govan. What was your role and resp01"'sibj.Hty;i

121
Donald cas&? ~~om did you work ~lth ~nd how were the re-
sponsibilities divided up. if there was a ne&tw~y'of d01ng
it?
Mr. Glenn. I initially came ante the Donald Case in
March-of 1983 as the second department attorney on the case.
The other departmental attorney who w~~ke4 on theCaBe was
aarry J<owaleh1, K-o-w"a-l-s-k-i. In 'additiona, an attorney'
in Mr. Se&8ions~ offic9, ThomaS Fi9ures, was assigned to the
CP..~C.
The three of us worked on t'he'invest19ation toqether and
investi9ated parts of it and were divided'in no particular
way amon9 us. I perhaps more'than the others worked on the
189&1 theory:side of the federal charqe in that matter, but
1n terms of the aotual field ",ork when we were in !"obi-le,
there W&~ no particular division.

Mr. Govan. 00 you recall when you first began to wor~
f-ir. :-;O:;llilll\S on t.ho Dona.ld CM~O?
~lr. Glenn. \. til'tlt
Mr_ GOVAn. The first 8~aqe the' case was in.
M.r. Glenn. If-i;rst met Mr. Session15 the first time wEt
to Mobile. w~ich was tha be9~nnin9 of the 9tAnd jury
nvestiqation, whioh was about May 18t or 2nd of 1983.
Mr. GoVan. Prior to that, had you hAd any t.lephone

pnv~t&&tions with, him?
Mr. Glenn. No,

122
55
Mr. Govan. l1hat was the purpose of the meetin~ in
Z Mobile in May of '83?
3 :1r. Glenn. In Hoy of '83. Mr. Kowalski and I had
4 traveled to Mobile, along with the U.S. Attorneys office,
S conduct the grand jury investigation, 80 it was the actual
8 beginning of,that investigation.
7 Mr. Govan. And when you _ca.me to Mobile, the decision
8 had already been made to convene the grand jury investigati~n
• Mr. Glenn. That's correct .
Nr. Go·van. Do you know Ilnythi n9 about tlle

"
11 which led to the decision to convene that grand jury?
" fir. Clenn. Not of personal knowledge.
Ko\<talski~s
" Mr. Govan. Do you know uhat Hr. role I'las in
14 deciding to convene a grand jury?
15 ~1r. (ilenn. Mr. KOI<talski was tll~ attorney in our
16 section from Justice and he was responsible for overscein~l
17 that c"se from our end of it.
\9 Mr. Govan. II'hat was r1r. Figures' rol~?

. \9 Mr. Glenn. He was the attorney in the U.S •
20 office who was responsible for overseeing the ca'sc.
II Mr. Govan. During the course of your work on the

22 case, have you ever heard'Mr'. Sessions make any
I' the Klan?
U Mr. Glenn. I'm aware of one incident which I

Is you are leading to involving some joke about it.
123
"
~lr. (;1enn. If I was leilding, Ken would object.
, ~lr. Bergquist. No. This is an informal session, not a
formal ~- we are not in rules of evidence here, so you may
lead the witness if you wish.
Mr. Glenn. I know what you are referring to.
Mr. Govan'. What am I referring to?
Nr. Glenn. I think you are probably referring to some
• comment Mr. Sessions made in his office in response to in-
formation that members of the Klan were using drugs, Rome
comrilent by Mr. Sessions that he used to have some sort of
respect for the Klan. J can't recall with certainty \~hether
I was present or not, but I believe I was, but I can't be
sure that I'm not recalling aomeone's telling me about that,
although think IU:lS there.
~1r. 13ergquist. ~Jas this in a joking reference?
~lr. (~1cnn. Vas. 'J'bat is my next point, that i t nc;ver
illlY illl~H'cssion on me because T thought it 11,lS just <I
ann that is all it was and that is all i took it tQ
mean, ~hc way h~ said it.
Mr. Govan. So what you are i:l<lying you !ue not sure
were t;lere, but if you were there you knew it
to be a joke?
"/I!r. Glenn. I I m pretty sure I was there. My only
hesitation is someone else said it, I am not sure was
there and So it :Ias now been some time, a couple of years.
'0 - 87 - 5
124
"
Hr. Govan. Nhc was there?
, Mr. Glenn. I'm pretty sure
Mr. Govan. If you were there, you would knew? You

• know, who do you think WAS there?
I Mr. Glenn. 1 think Barry Kowalski and Thomas Figures
8 and Jeff Sessions were there. l'rn pretty surl\! I was there.
7 Mr. Glenn. Do you recall when it happened?
8 Mr. Glenn. No. No. It would have
• Mr. GOVAn. How many times have you discussed this com-
10 ment since it occurred?
II Mr. Glenn. I haven't really discussed it with anyone.
12 I haVe heard it ·raised within the last four or five months
13 in the context of "'.t" ..Sessions' nomination,
14 it came back to me. that from the time it was made, which I
15 sllspect was proPl'lbly late '83 or early 1984, \mtil it CAme
16 up during the course of this investigation, I had not
17 any comment or a\,ything about it at all.
18- Hr. Govan. liad you thought "'bout it sinC'e that time?
Hr. Glenn. No.

"
~ Mr. Govan. Who did you hear it fr~~ within
21 month", that this cOJ1'l!'!'lent Was the Subject .of some
U inqUiry?
21 Mr. Glenn. Probably from Barry:Kowalski.
U Mr. Govan. What did he tell you?
25 Mr. Glenn. I think only that it had come up in the'

125
58
course 'of th~ invl,lstigation in I·lr. Sessions' nor.tin<ltion,
nothing very specific. That is what I recall. Really, it
was just a passing remark to me one day in the office.
Mr. Govan. At that time did·you have a recollection of
having been present and heard Mr. Sessions s ....y that?
Mr. Glenn. Nell, that is when it came hack to me and I
recognized t:lat, I knSI,' I had heard that before and I think
at that time I also tl10ught that I heard it personally.
Mr. Govan. Do you have any recollection of there being
any discussion the day of the comment or the day after the
comment was made about the comment?
Mr. Glenn. Not with me.
Mr. Govan. Do you think if you had been there and had
heard the comment made, that you and others would discuss the
comment, at least jokingly a couple times aften"ards?
Mr. Glenn. Not necessarily.
1-1r. Govan. Do you knol-' i f ~1r. F iCJlJt'en hOura tho conrnel1 t "'j
Hr. Glenn. 1 think he did. In fact, I think 11r.
has told me that Mr~- Figures liad mcntiQ'!.ed it dur'inq
courcs of this investigation?
Mr. Govan. If such a comment was made in Mr. Figures'
Mr. Figures have laughed?

Mr. Glenn; Probably, that is likely.
Mr. Govan. /lr. ~'i9ures would have laughed?
Mr. Glenn. Yes.

126
"
Mr. Govan. Do you have any specific recoll~ction of
2 what the comment was other than expreGsing some general
3 respect Or regard or whatever word you ufle fot' the Klan,
4 albeit in jest?
I Mr. Glenn. It was said in jest, and the word I recall
• is respect, I used to resp~ct them or I used to have some

, respeot for them. + also believe he waS smiling a3 he said
• it and I took it as 'a joke. did not take it ~eriously,
.•
that he meant that ever had I did not tak.e it that he
meant he had any

11 Mr. Govan. What would have changed the respect that he
" had for the Klan. Did he express in that ~e~ark.
" that would change his respect for the Klan?

Mr. Glenn. didn't express explici tly. The remark
" He
was Illude in response to some comment mado in 11is office

"
about information we received that someone in the Klanhac\
"
bC0n llsillq c'lru9s or had drugs.
"
~lr. ('ovan. \~a!l it a news r'eport?
"
Mr. Glenn. No, I'm sute it was not a news report.
"
20 />Ir. Govan. Lt ""as information that hau been
21 Mr. Bergquist. That is an item under investigation.
U Hr. Govan; l~hat is?
13 Mr, Bergquist. It is an investigative report and we
U can't say anything more about it, They were disoussing an
21 investigative report,
127
60
~'r. Govan. Oh, okay.'1'hat was my nG)tt question.
didn't have fa~ to go.
Mr. Eergquist. I'm not suppos~d to toll you that is
what it was, but that is what they were discussing.
Mr. Govan. Okay.
Have you evex heard Mr. Sesgions make any remarks
similar to that sinCe that time?
Nx. Glenn. No.
l1r. Govan. HaVe you e.ver heard people discuss alleged
remarks similar to that?
Mr. Glenn. No.
Mr. Govan. Do you have a view as to the level of Mr.
Sessions' cooperation in the investigation of the Donald
case:
Mr.r,lonn. Y(J!;,
J~:t. (;ovan. I.. hat is that?
Mr. r,lonll. rIc hMl been coop~rntinl1 ,18 fllll~! ..lS ( coult.
€Xpoct, as fully <.\5 is possible. lie hafi been fully coopora-
with us in all respects' in the Don<tld investigatlo'l
sti1rt to finish.
Mr. Govan. Have you ever heard Mr. Figures expressing
dissatisfaction with Mr. Sessions' actions or lack of actions
the OonalQ case?
Mr. Glenn. I can't recall any specific comment that Mr.
Figures may have made saying that he was dissatisfied with

128 '
61
any particular decision by Mr. Sessions.

z ~lr, Govan, Do you know anything about the interaction
of Figures and Sessions concerning the Donald caGe?
4 Mr, Glenn. Not specifically, no. know that they
• \~ould confer from time to time. 1'1e would -- I would or
• W~ll{'" I "can only speak for myself, I would occasionally
7 if questions or requests or something or other and I know
• that Mr. Figures would say he would speak with Mr. Sessions
• about it and he would and then we would talk afterwards.
" I know that they would have interactions during the co~rse
" of the investigation. and the subject would have been the
" subject of our investigation.

Mr. GoVan. 00 you know anything about Mr. Figures' and
"
14 Nr. Sessions' interaction prior to your involv.eI'lent in the,~
15 case
(/lann. No.
" ML
,. ~11.". Covan. -- which

'7
t'lr. (ilenn. No.
~l~. l<lonoski. EXC\ISe moe, did they 80em to havll a

"
..
2D working rlllationship as far as this cane?
.. Mr. Glenn.
point of view.
That's probably hard from a definitional
When I was in Mobile, we were all
..
discuss the case together without any problems •
Mr. Xlonoski. So things were going pre ty
7
z. .AS you were concerned?
129
"
~li, Glenn. l'le11, we had full cooperation from the U.S.
Attorneys office. There was nothing that I ever observed
When I was in Mobile between Mr. Sessions and Mr. Figures
which inhibited or interfered ~'ith the investigation,
Nr ,Govan. And t'lr. ~'i guces ·...as intimately invo1 vad
in that case?
Mr~ Glenn. He was.
Mr. Govan. It is a case that ~lr. Sessions can justify
if he claims the credit for as the prosecutor.
Mr. Glenn. Certainly.
Bergquist. HopefUlly. I~e hav~n't finll:ll1ed yet.
Is there anything else you want to say about Mr. Sessions,
subjectively or his professional competence?
Nr. Glenn. Yes, I would like to add that. although my
encounter with him was brief, he has becn fully cooperat:ive
lind fully supportive in €lverythinq thllt ~le have done in this
invosti()"tion, from th~ bG!ginning to the end. I have no
qUC8tiOils at all abolJt his credibility. He haa alao been an
easy iQdividual to work with'. He doesn't have an ego problem,
as one way of putting it. He is an easy person to approach,
an easy person to bring ideas to, .and he will listen tD us
as well. So!n the limited cD~text Df working on the criminal
''investigation, I have had no trouble and am very pleased 'wi th
'his Competence, his work and his cOoperation.
11r. Govan. Frank. do you have anything?

130
63
I, Mr. Klonoski. You said this is the only case you hnve
2 been involved in with r·lr. Sessions? Are there any others?
Mr. Glenn. ~e had one discussion a couple of months
• ago on another matter which has since been closed, but that
• was only one phone call. This has been the only case which
• has Come up as a major investigation.

7 Mr. Govan. The matter that you worked
• on involved a shoottinq at a house being shown to a black
• couple?
'" Mr. Glenn. think that he told me about that, but
" really didn't talk to him about it because that wasn't a

12 assigned to me. referred him or had another attorney
" him because I was not assigned to that case. There \las
" another matter which we closed, becausG it was a deat:!. cnce.
..
" Our pr03ctice is that all casas in
Volved, we consult with the u.s.

\~hich
Attorneys office
death is in-
17 cloRe t:lem, and I had a case in whic!1 a death wa3
and so I consulted with him. \~asn't

" It· really (:r, cl0ge
"
20·
questiDn and there was no basis for a federal --
Mr. Govan. \'1hat was the case?

21 Mr. Glenn. It involved basically the death of a
..
22 man who was found dead floating in a river somewhere in
Alabama, in tlle Southern District of Alabama •
where, so r can't assist and give the name of

2S the geographic location. 'l'l'le black man and some other pe
131
64
had been there for some Sort of a party- t~le night bafore
and SOmebody had come in bankin9 on the GOO~ and ~ade a
racial remark and the black man had run off, aou three d~ys
later his body was found. We Concluded there \las no balds
for federal jurisdiction in that case, and it wasn't a close

case, but it being a death case we had to talk to Mr.
Sessions about it.
~lr. Govan.
have nothin9 further.
~lr. KlonoskL I have one more, During your interaction

he dOhe anything improper?
Mr. Glenn. Never.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled testimony was conclUded.)

132
65
TESTINONY o!" DANIEL L. BELL

, llr. Govan. 1 am Reggy Govan and I ~Iork for the senate
JUdiciary Committee, minority counsel and investigator, and
• I work primarily for Senator Biden. l'1e are preparing for ~.
• confirmation hearing in the nomination
• to be a Federal District JUdge for the Southern District

7 Alabama.
• First, let me es-tablish that YOll and I don't know
other and we haven't spoken before, is that correct?

to Mr. Bell. As far as I know, yes.
.. Mr. Govan. And how long have you been employed by
" Oepartment of Justice?
" ~lr. Bell. since t-lay 1970.
" Mr. Govan. Did you come to the department right out o.
"
..
law school?
Mr. Ball. No, I taught school for a cou!Jle
17 then 1 W<:lllt with the dep.... rtment.
Of Mr. Govan. What are your. present res90nsibilities?
..
" M~. Ball. I am Deputy Chief of the
the Civil Rights Division •

crimin~l section 0
.. Mr. Govan. Are you a colleague of Barry
respect to where you fit in the hierarchy?
.
Z. Mr. Bell.
Mr. Govan.
That's correct •
Equivalent positions?
If Hr. Bell. Yes.
133
66
11r. Govan. Do you know Nr. Sessions?
~lr. Bell. Yes, I do.
~li::'. Govan. In What cal,acity do you know him?
j1r. Bell. have known him since about 1977 or '78, at
which point I had a civil rights prosecution in the Southern
District of Alabama and Mr. Sessions was an Assistant U.S.
Attorney at the time and \qas quite helpfUl to me in the
prosecution of this casa, which was an extremely difficult
one. have known him since in his dealings with tho Crimina
Section on a return basis. I think for a time he was absent
frolll the U.S. Attorneys office, but am not sure what period.
But in any event, I have known him in a professional way
during this time.
Nr. ben/guist, Lat me interject here, and caution you.
'{ou may discuss Cd.'H.'S that have completp.d litiq,Hionl ,~,n\'
cases tJlat are still under investigation or panning litir!,l-
tion you may onl~' t.:.lk <lbout in yone.111 terml;.
:lr. 13<:11. Certainly.
11.0. Go\'t\n. !lave you ever heard ~lr. Sessions max£! re-
marks that you considered to be racially insensitive?
Mr. Bell~ Not at all. Not at all. As a matter of

fact, my impression of Mr. Sessions is that he is very eager
to p'ursue criminal civil rights cases and he certainly wa.s
at the beginning of my acquaintance with him. The particular

CaSe I tried, the government had indicted the sheriff of
134
67
Mobile County and eight of his deputies for deliberately
Z setting up an ambush and murdering a black inmate, an ex-
tremely unpopular case in nobile, and there were a number
people even in the United States Attorneys office who were
5 not too eager to be that friendly to the prosecution,
S especially a couple of Washington-based la....yers. And Hr.
7 Sessions and the then U.S. Attorney, Charles Whit(npunneY,
and his successor, William KemLrow, were all very helpful

9 the prosecution.
10 ;!r. Govan. What attorneys were not eager to be assa-
f! dated \~ith this case?
12 /.tr. Bell. There were a few assistants who did not
'3 to be that eager to be associated with us.
'4 Mr. Govan. l'ihieh assistants?
" ~lr. Bell. I don't rf~call their names right at the mo"
16 mont.
17 11r. Govan. On \~hllt basis do yOIl form that opinion?
" tlr. Dell. TLer0 '·Ias a lot of talk abO\lt O\lr chancos
19 winning and a lot of talk auo\lt whether or not we should
20 have even indicted the case.
Zt Mr. Govan. Reasons going to· the merits of the case,
12 the strength, .the weakness?
23 Mr. Bell. Weil, I would says reasons going more
24 the likelihood of obtaining a conviction becalHlc of the
ZI race of the victim, because of the popularity of the

135
"
defendants, a'nd those kinds of factors. It was not my im-
pression that all of these people ware all that well
acquainted with the merits of the case. It \"88 a cane, as
say, that was prosecuted by the Civil Rights Division pri-
marily. We had backup support from, as r say, the two U.S.
Attorneys who wera in office, one,after the other at that
time, and I was glad to ~~y'that Mr. Sessions was one of the
assistants who wa's ~- and I COUld r,all upon him for advice,
\"hich ~Ias frequent because I wa:> out of town. 1 don I t know
if you have ever had to prosecute caRcs in that situation,
but you have to rely upon local people for their knowledge
of the rules of the court, for their knowledge of the jury,
for th:ir knOWledge of the personalities involved.

Mr. Gavan. I understand <Ill of tJ1at, having had to try
cases, but I would like to foeuson wh"t ,',1', :,cSl:lions'
responSibility was and how that differed with the willingness
of other assistants in that office to participate in the
case,
Mr. Bell. Well, you didn't quite ask that g,uestion
bafore, but what Mr. Sessions was willing to do was to sit
down and disouss with me in great· detail tactical questions
and other questions concerning the case. Some of the other
assistants were not quite that willing. I tended to be put
off, brushed aside. I. don't mean to imply that all of the
assistants were like that, but -~
,,~'
136
"
Mr. Govan, rrow many llssistants were in the office
2 there?
Mr. Bell. As I remember, there were five or six.
• Mr. Govan, And what assistant was assigned primary
$ responsib~lity for this case?
• Mr. Bell. There were no assistants assigned primary

7 responsibili ty.
• Ur. Govan. So lir. Sessions' involvement in the caso
• 1n some sense entirely gratuitous?

10 Mr. Bell. No ww
II Mr. Govan. It wasn't a part of his
12 Nr. Bell. w_ it was not gratuitous in the sense that

13 asked for him.
14 1-1r. Govan. But h~ was not assigned responsibility?
IS Mr. Bell. As far as I know, he was not aSRigned/ no,
lS r-lr, Govan, So he ~las doinq sor.ll!!tiiinq aJ::.ove and beyonq-
17 the call of duty?
IS Nr. BElll, 'l'hat's correct.
t-jr, Govan. What happened in that c1ise? \olhat was the

"
20 result?
21 Mr. Bell. The result of that case was an acquitt~l
22 and I suspect to no great surprise.
23 Mr. Bergquist. It was clearly a travesty of justice,
24 everybody in the department acknOWledges it.
2S Mr. Govan. A what justice, a travesty?

137
70
/1r. Bergquist. Yes. It should never have
nr. GOvan. am just curious abollt it. aM not even

aWare of the case.
was just curious what the reGult Was.
11r. Dergquist, The jury __
Mr. Bell. Well, in my view the jury should have found

'the defendants guilty.
Mr. Bergquist. Of course, you had a good prosecutor.
Mr. Bell. A good prosecutor .
.~lr. Bergquist. Dut even people \~ho observed the caSe,

i t was a simple case of local jury __
Mr. (~van. Have you ever worked with Mr. Figure~?
Mr, Bell. Yes, not on a case but I have consulted with

him about cases.
Hr. Govan. Have yoU ever tried or investigated a caSe

with him in any formal way?
Ml', Bell. have never tried a aase. or participate in
a 9rand jury with him, belt I have discuSSC'd on-goinq investi.-
gation;; with him on a number of occasions.
Mr. GOvan. Do you l~nO~l anything about Mr. Figureo I
interaction with Nr. Sessions on cases?
Mr. Bell. On cases, very li~tle. I know they must
worked together on a number of cases. It is a small
,:;office and- I -am sure they did, but I don't have any knowledge.
Mr. Govan. What was your involvement in the Donald

case?
138
r,lr. Bell. Only peripheraL That was handled
2 by Dert Glenn and Darry Rowalski.
3 (Short recess)
• Mr. Govan. Approximately how many cases have you
•
'I
.,
worked on'with Mr. Sessions?
l~r. Bell. ~lo11, as I say, in this particular one,
7 is U.S. v. Purvis, I talked with him a lot. I didn't
8 directly with him on it. I have had occasion to talk
• him about maybe ten other matters that we hnvc inve$tigate~

1]
to over the course of years. I have not prosecuted a caso wit
;i
him or been in a qrand jury with him. Ii
" (I
Mr. Govan. Is it Tom Purvis?
~
1Z
Mr. nell. Yes. ,I

" ~.
14 Mr. Govan. He is the present sheriff?
Ilr. Bell. li.:- may still be. As a matter of fact.
'il
"
11 \~hen our indictment was handed down, think he made a
17 campaign ad o,ut of the fact.
11 Nr. Borgquist. JJe made a campaign ad out of the fact
19 that he ha~ been indicted.
'0 :Ir. Govan . .~.l\d he got reelected?
~lr. Bell. He got raelected.

"
u Mr. GOVan. During the time that
23 Mr. Sessions. have you ever heard him make 4 remark that~
ZA any way. shape or form you considered to bo insensitive 0
25 racial matters. even though the remark was said in.jestnt

139
DelL No, absC'lutal~' not.
GOvan. Did you ever hear him make any rQrnarks in

concerned racial iSsues?
Bell. No, have not.
Govan. I have nothing else.
l<lonOslti. OUring thase ten or eleven c",-::es that you
him about, was he oOoperative?

AbsOlutely. That is where I got my iMpres~
-thnt hE' waR interested in pursuing t" l3E! kindr: of CD,S~5"
I<lono~ki. What happened to those ten or eleven
Bell. On one or two of them he suggested somo

:tional investigation which we did. I don't believe that
of those ones that I am thinking of right now, at least
of any that actually C.,I'·' to trial, but
got the slightest inlpressicl/i t,lat he wanted to do any-
lesF; than a full investigation of 0,10:',. til'.'l C<:5~'i.

t'lr. r<1onoski. lind in fact he has all-lays supporta,l a
ipV~Dtigation of the cases that you dealt With?
Yes, at least aD far as I dealt wit~ him,
Klonosk1. I have nothing e13e.
GOVan. I havo noth1nq else.

at 4:31 p.M., the taking of all testimony
140
73
CER':'IFIC1\.TE or l107ARi' PUl3LIC
I, Stephen D. 1,liller, the officer before whom the

• foregOing testimony was taken, do hereby attest that the
, witnesses whose testimony appea.rs in the foregoing transcri

of proceedill9'S ~lOre dUly SWorn oy me; thi'lt I at,l
• or emplo~'ee of any ilttorney or counsel employed by the
7
part.ies hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested
• the outCOD~ of the action.
•
10
11
"
."
" 11y commission expires
"
17
"
"
zo
ZI
"
••
..
141
tqr"DENTON. We were surprised, Senator Biden, that Mr.
)made reference to public radio carrying many of his com-
hich he said he thought were going to be confidential, and
r""released at 7:40 a.m.
ot implying that you had anything to do with that, or
18e, but it is a characteristic of the Hill, it seems, that
:ike that happen, and I do ,not think it is entirely fair.
'qr,BIDEN. I share your concern in the fact that those com-
, ~r, the record, I am as surprised as you-but for the
e,fact that those comments occurred on radio 12 hours
eyoccurred here, could have done damage. Bllt frankly, it
·,to be the mechanism which triggered Mr. Hebert's will-
,) 'desire to come up here. So maybe for a change, some
• 'e from some bad in the sense of something, although it
'confidentilJ1, in that sense that it was classified or any-
lit I agree.
ll~siire the Chair that this Senator was as surprised as you
," d that to the best of my knowledge, my staff was not a
his. I did-our colleagues were aware of some of the things
, stated.
'ate, let us move on.
DENTON. I yield to you, Senator Biden, in questioning
ons.
, BIDEN. Thank you.
sions, if you will give me a moment here to collect my
"to go back if I can to the case relating to whether or not
ad an FBI investigation from going forward: (aJ Did you;
ypu did, can you tell me what kind of case it was and why
,tided that it is best that the investigation not move for-
SSIONS. When I heard that yesterday, I believed there was
lof mil(up in that allegation. I called the FBI in Mobile
d to them. The agent tells me that he got an Air-Tel--
r BIDEN. An Air-Tel-an air telegram?
ONS (continuing]; I do not know what that is-that's what
calls Some sort of communication from Washington-and'
called for an investigation of a fraudulent document that
"in a file on Department of Justice stationery that indicated
reclearance had been given to a city, I believe, or a county,
'eact--
BIDEN. A preclearance in the voting rights--
IONS (continuing]. In the Voting Rights Section-when in
learance was ever given.
as amazed that any such thing as this was said.
,IDEN. I am sorry?
'~NS. That anything had been said that I had interrupt-
estigation. He assured me that the Air-Tel told him to
e investigation within 21 days and that that was done-
awed all the public officials in Conecuh County-and that
einvestigation, one man had died he could not be inter-
ut all the rest were. They.took el(emplars of a typewriter
;. it' was perhaps written on-all thetYl'ewriters in the
fice' were tested, and that the report indicates noconver-
142
sation with me and he indicates that he had no conversation'.
me, and that a copy of the report was immediately sent, accor
to the file, to the Civil Rights Division. '.
Senator BJDEN. I am a little confused, then. What do you ma
Mr. Hebert's testimony just a moment a g o ? ' .
Mr. SESSIONS. Right. I have been trying to think that thi
and I believe there is just a major misunderstanding on that
I believe that the report was done. and was sent up, and it
have been lost. And I may have at some point been inquire<;l\
to what my opinion was on it, and I would have given it.···
Senator ~JDEN. Well--
Mr. SESSIONS. But it does not indicate that from the file Ii
and the FBI always puts down the opinion of the U.S. attorney
case like that.
Senator BJDEN. Well, I-that is confusing. Can you hold Wj
second? [Conferring with s t a f f . ] '
My understanding is from the testimony and from the stat,
by Mr. Hebert that Mr. Hancock actually talked to you.
You do not remember talking to Mr. Hancock? •
Mr. SESSIONS. I remember that case being discussed, bees,!
told Mr. Hebert as we were discussing it, the only thing I
recall about the case is that I discovered later that there was 'I.
understanding. I never did contact the Civil Rights Divisio
apologize to them--
Senator BJDEN. Well, let me try to clear up the misunders.
ing. I would like to go to the testimony given by Mr. Hancock,"
He says, starting on page 11, his statement is: "The issuii'
seems to be on the floor was when we had requested an inv,
tion," in the county the name of which I cannot pronoul1'
dare not do damage to it again, "in C-o-n-e-c-u-h County "il
requested the FBI to do an investigation for us in that coun
had-the form of requesting those investigations is a memor,"
from the Civil Rights Division to the Director of the FBI requ .
the investigation. .
The issue involved was that the-we later found out that the requested.m
tieD had not been conducted, and when we inquired why we learned that the"
States Attorney had told the Bureau not to conduct the investigation..' 'l
Committee Investigator, Mr. GOVAN. If you recall, at what stage was the"
gation when the request went to the FBI for investigation?
Mr. HANCOCK. I am not sure what you mean by flrequest". The investigatio
just beginning because we were requesting the FBI to do a particular investig
GOVAN. Had a lawsuit actually been filed against the C o u n t y ? , ;
HANCOCK. I believe at that time-I am not sure whether-we have had-:I
been unable to piece all of this back together, and I have checked my records
do not have any records on it.
It could have been-we had a lawsuit-I am trying to think whether we
lawsuits-we did have two lawsuits against the County, as I recall now" 0
volves a matter under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which requires pr,'
ance ...... and the other matter involved a lawsuit we filed concerning discrim
ry treatment that black voters receive when they come to the polls to vote-'
County. ' ':-".~
I have had some difficulty resurrecting whether the investigation at iss
the one lawsuit or the other. At times I thought it was one, and the other
thought it was the other.
GOVAN, Do you recall the purpose of the investigation?
.HANCOCK, No., Because J. am not able to piece it back together, I carino,
one of two purposes, to the best that I recall. On the one hand, it may.hli
143
information about the treatment of black voters receive when they vote
_'~County.
e other issue that it may have concerned was at one point in the Section 5 law-
;the County presented in court a letter that purported to grant Section 5 pre-
~ce to voting changes, and the letter was an obvious forgery signed by some-
o apartment stationery.
signed with the name of someone who was listed as Assistant Attorney
for Civil Rights, and the person had never been Assistant Attorney Gener-
a name we never heard of; it was a William Daley or something like that.
Ilaley.
e.knew-we a~e crack investigators-that it was not a true letter, and we
e Fm to try and determine who may have prepared the letter. So what I
.iig-it was one of those two matters, but I just do not know which one.
Did you discuss this matter with Mr. Sessions?
. I may have. I do not recall whether I discussed it with Mr. Sessions or
y have, In fact, I probably did. I know for a fact -that I discussed it with my
1'8 in the Department of Justice and that someone later discussed it with
.'ons.
n, without taking you through the next five pages, down to
On page 16.
. OVAN. I hate to be repetitious, but did I ask you did you speak about this
?
HANCOCK. Yes, and I think I said that I may have spoken to Mr. Sessions
'it at some point in the process. In fact, I recall that I spoke to Mr. Sessions
it and that he confirmed that he thought it was an investigation we should
nduct and told the Bureau not to conduct it.
M', Did he offer any reasons in support of his opinion that the investigation
.have been conducted? .
K. He did not agree with, and I do not know that I can give any more
that, I do not recall precisely what he told me. He did not think it was
stigation we should conduct. He may have thought that we were-I do not
hat he thought. He may have told me that we were just barking up the
tree. Those were not his words, but I do not know if he had knowledge of the
tuation involved.
,at two points here as he goes through refreshing his recol-
, he says for certain that he knows that he spoke to his su-
or, and that for certain someone later discussed it with you.
ter he said, "I am sure I did speak with Mr. Sessions."
.s that refresh your recollection at all? .
:·SESSIONS. Well, it really does not, in the sense that-I think
was a call about it. I do not think that I ordered an investiga-
ot to be done. If I did, it would have been on the basis of an
.ent coming to me. The agent said it did not happen who Con-
it, and he conducted the investigation and he reviewed the
, and the report indicated that. They were reading from it.
.. uld be that there might have been a real, genuine misunder-
ding on that case, and that the Department thought, and Mr.
cock and they may have really felt that I was intervening in a
that was not proper.
w, I think he called-I have a recollection that I was not clear
\1 talked to Mr. Hancock and did not correctly state to him
had happened. I really should have called him back later,
. I found out that there was a mixup. That is all I can remem·
o .never called him back to clarify it.
tor BIDEN. OK.
ESSIONS. Maybe the dates in the file would indicate that,
einvestigation was commenced.
.r BIDEN. Let me ask you again, so I am clear here-[con·
.,with staffJ-in the Perry County case, can you tell mea
144
little bit about Mr, Albert Turner? He was one of the defend!\',
right?
Mr, SESSIONS, Yes,
Senator BlDEN, Is he a well-known man in the community;"
a r e a ? '
Mr, SESSIONS, I had heard of him, but he was much more
known than I realized, He had never held office,
Albert Turner is a man of great convictions, He isa 4
fellow. He fights for what he believes in. He believed in the.c
that he was for. And it was my conclusion and belief-the
acted as they did, and I accept that-that the temptation ofcd
ing those ballots was just too much to turn them in, to vote"
his own slate. .
He marched across the Selma Bridge with Martin Luthet
There is film that you can see where he was near the fro!)
when the troopers moved into the crowd. He was there whe
few people in Perry County were allowed to vote prior
Voting Rights Act; probably less than 10 percent were allo
vote.
Mr. Chestnut described him best in closing argument, '
thought it was an extremely effective closing argument. H
that Albert Turner had fought for what he believed in; he h
been elected to office; he did not have anything, but he w
kind of man America needed, and that we needed people w
stand up and do what they believe in, and that sort of thing,'
. It was sort of the gadfly of the State argument that it
sary to have such people-I thought it was an effective arg1l
think it is accurate. .
Senator BIDEN, Let me ask you, you went through a ( '
ballots with us here-not all of them that you had, but a .
of them. Was Mr. Turner indicted on each of those coun
each of those ballots a separate count?
.Mr. SESSIONS, Each ballot was a separate count, and the'
ment that was filed named Turner in almost every····
course, he was involved in more than Hogue; there we
counts against Hogue than Turner-but he was charge .
Hogue counts as an aider and abettor, and Hogue was eM
the Turner counts as an aider and a b e t t o r . · . ; t
Senator BlDEN. But there were counts where he was ch
the principal rather than the aider and abettor?
Mr. SESSIONS: Yes.
Senator BlDEN. Now, was he convicted on any of those
Mr. SESSIONS. Dh, no. "
Senator BlDEN, How do you explain that, other than the,
cies of the situation that juries make mistakes? I mea!)
have a theory? You must have walked out and said ',,'p
from what you said here, you sound like you thought yd
pretty tight case, either-how do you explain it?
Mr. SESSIONS. I think the Government led with its strell
they led with the Shelton witnesses and a few more, .
A number of the witnesses after that were elderly; all'
them contradicted themselves and contradicted prior state
145
nator BiDEN. Did any of them contradict, what they have in
't file that you read to us-any of the things you read to us, was
.of that contradicted?
r. SESSIONS. Oh, no. Those were Shelton witnesses, and they
ified at trial absolutely consistent with those statements, I be·
e-there may have been some, but the thing about it not being
ged with their permission, that was true.
"e of the things I evaluated, Senator Biden, was the posture of
'case. I thought it was real significant that Albert Turner testi·
'that With regard to the Sheltons, that they had a meeting, and
tory was he did change the ballots--
',. ator BiDEN. I am sorry. Say that again, now.
,SESSIONS. He stated that he did change those ballots.
'ator BiDEN. Who said this?
SESSIONS. Albert Turner.
ator BlDEN. Yes.
ESSIONS. To the grand jury, which was read at trial, and he
ere was a meeting in the home of one of the Sheltons, and
I the Sheltons were called there, all six of them; that he was
Earl Ford, a deputy sheriff who was a real ally of Albert
llr, and Turner's wife was there. And they discussed it, and
,one of the Shelton's individually consented to the changes on
,allots and he changed some of them himself, he said. He said
p,p,,ened to have glue in the car to open the ballots and to
t\lem with after. '
one of the Sheltons contradicted that in their trial testimo·
fiy said ther had nothing against Albert Turner, but there
osuch meeting; they did not consent to a change in the bal·
,that sort of thing.
rosecutor, I think that is a good case right there. It would
obably gone better had it been those counts charged and
,"that, in about 4 days, instead of everything that happened.
tor BlDEN. Now, there were 700 absentee ballots, as I under·
540 collected by Turner and Hoag--
IONS. Yes.
BulEN" [continuing]. Seventy.five of the total 700 were in·
. 27 resulted in indictments, and none in conviction.
IONS. That is correct.
'BIDEN. Now, is this-you testified earlier, and my coun·
e that he thinks you are right, that in the shotgun case-
being shot up, the black policemen looking at a house in
borhood, and that night it gets shot up, plus the 'white
te agent gets threatening calls-to the extent that Mr.
lasked him, "Why didn't they move?" and he said, "Well,
think they had enough to move on, probably"-not that it
a pen, but sufficient evidence.
en you were testifying relating to that case in response
n from the chairman, Senator Thurmond, you pointed
the Justice Department has to make judgment calls based
eight and imJ?Ortance of the matter brought before it.
ESSIONS. That IS correct.
, 'rBIDEN. Now, is the issue of the allegation of a number of
ballots being tampered with and the numbers involved-
and 75 investigated-is that on its face, does that rise at
146
the level Qr'the kind of matter that the U.S. attorney's office,'
prosecute? Obviously, we want to stop all fraud. But I mea,!,
just trying to get a sense of when you weight those things, I
is that something that would--
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. Is that a case of great weight?
Mr. SESSIONS. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. We,
believe, 25 or so what appeared to be strong counts, stron~;
ments. The grand jury in that District had asked for an, q
agency to investigate, because-- . '"
Senator BIDEN. Well, let us speak of that a minute. The,
jury report,. the grand jury report you referred to, was a gra
report in the State of Alabama, a State grand jury as oppos
federally drawn grand jury, c o r r e c t ? ' ,
Senator BIDEN. And that grand jury-which I ask una
consent that the entire referenced report be put in the reco
Senator SPECTER [presiding]. Without objection, it will bern
part of the record.
Senator BIDEN [continuing]. That that grand jury said, "W
grand jury of Perry County, AL, in a period of 2 days have)
gated 24 Cases, returning 13 indictments and questioning,
_nesses, no-billed 5 cases, and continued 3 cases. We hereby'
that the Board Inspection Committee has inspected the],'o
the Perry County officials and have found them to be pro~e
corded in the office of the judge of probate, the Courthous.e'
tion Committee'" '" *," et cetera. .. <
It goes through, and it gets down and says, "This grand 'j
extensively and exhaustively investigated the voting sitq
Perry County. Our greatest concern is to assure the fair ,s,!
all people." You have read this before, but I want to reall
"At this point, we are convinced. that such an election"
denied the citizens of Perry County, both black and white.
mary problem appears to be with the tampering of the rig\J.
of black citizens in this county. ,",
"The problems are"-and I cannot read it; it is a :X;erq,
problems are" something "intimidation" -is it Hvoter.j.'
tion"? [Conferring with staff.] Anr-vay, the problem isth
machine. But, "The problems are' something "intimidatio
polls and abuse and interference with the absentee ballott',
ess. These problem areas lie within the grey and uncertai'l'
the law and are generally confined to those segments of oui'
which are aged, infirm and disabled. +
"We encourage vigorous prosecutions of all violatpr,j
voting laws and especially would request the presence of ,W
ance of an outside agency, preferably Federal, to monitor'"
tions and to ensure fairness and impartiality for all. "
"At this time, we see no reason to remain in _sessioll :'~
cetera. ',"
- [Document follows:]
147
GRAND JURY REPORT
HE HONORABLE EDGAR P. RUSSELL, JR •• JUDGE OF THE CIRCUIT COURT

PERRY COUNTY •. ALABAMA,
the Grand Jury of Perry'County, Alabama, in a period of two
~ave investigated ~cases. returned §indictments. quesHorad
Jet.ness!s. no billed .:s-cases and c~nt1nued..3.. cues,
report that the Bond Inspection Committee has inspected
of the Perry County Officials and have found them to be properly
in the Office of the Judge of Probate.
Courthouse: Inspection Committee hilS made il tour and inspection
followfng:
The entire building needs IS new paint job throughout.
There is a need for new chairs. desk and carpet in the
Tax Coll ector's Office.
There "is a need for some phster jrepa1lt work to be done
in the Ta~ Assessor's Offfce as well as the same repair
work in the Mapping Room.
Jail Inspection Committee has toured and inipected the Jail
hereby report that the Jail is in better shape than it has
r a.number 0'( years. There are some repairs needed which lire
is need for plaster repair.

<There should be replacement for all broken and missing
~window glass.
'First floor shower and toilet is in need of repair and

painting.
There is need for a light in the laundry room.
, Broken urinals in the cells need to be replaced •
.:ihere is a need for lights in the west hallway.
s Grand Jury has e~ttnsively and eXhau~ttvelY investigat~d the

i~ Perry County. Our greatest conc~rn 1s to assure a fair
all parties and all people •. At this point we are convinced
'an election ~s ~eing denied the _c1tize~s;Of .Perry County, both
'whih" The pr1mar.vproblem appears to'be with the tampering of
to vote of the black citizens of this county. The problems~are
timidation at the po'ls and abuse and interfarence with the absent~e
148
Il!11otifl9 proces.~. These problem areas Tie withfn:"gray and uncertain,

areas of the law and are generally confined to those se~ents
~Ihic.h are aged. ,infirrned, or disahlect. We. encouraga ~i90rclls
of all violations of the voting laws and especially would request the
presence and assistance of an outside agency, preferably federal.
our elect)ons and to ensure fairness and impartiality for all.
At this time ~e see no reason to remain in session, therefore, we
request that we be hereby adjourned.
Re,spectfully subrnltted on this the 20th day of Apnfl, 1983.
::::.:::~
149
J;Wtor BIDEN. Now, you took this, I assume, as a call to action
., at a later date, alleged improprieties were raised with your
;. is; that correct?
,SESSIONS. Senator Biden, of course they said it was "grey and
in areas of the law," and the people involved in the case
e' prosecuted were involved in that 1982 investigation, or at
,ere certainly called as witnesses and knew about the investi-
,§o I want to point that out. We did not prosecute on that
'~ver did a thorough investigation-but my feeling was that
lem would not continue; that the people would straighten
n up their act. And I saw no reason to prosecute after the
had not prosecuted, and we did not.
as later when we got a call again that I did not feel that I
ignore this call from this grand jury, a call from the district
ey, and--
tor BlDEN. Now, did the district attorney ask you?
ESSIONS. The district attorney called me, because he did
,,-although we were not close friel1ds at all at that time-
,me, with Reese Billingslea, a black elected official who
hat ballot, in his presence, and Mr. BiIlin15slea had called
Rights Division, and they had said for hIm to call me if
fraUd.
rElDEN. OK. What I am trying to deal with is there has
allegation made that you, with some sense of glee and an-
, went out and dealt with what is a petty case when in
dllld have ordinarily fallen to the county prosecutor. I am
';be fair to you to let you make your case as to why didn't
I am not saying you should have-I want to know why
ot say to the district attorney, "Hey, look, the grand jury
"itonce, although they said they wanted outside folks to
and they did not find reason to indict at that time. You
..e guy there. Why don't you move forward?"
IONS. The grand jury provides that answer. There were
two factions in Perry County. Some would suggest there
.and black faction. That is not true. There may be some
o not get me wrong-but it is clear that Billingslea and
tat least 50 percent, if not more than 50 percent, of the
,'; ,They are the ones that are upset because of this other
:lq)llt for a local district attorney and a local jury, who
the people involved, who may be on one factIOn or an-
, dIe a case like that. It is like the civil rights cases in
ere the Federal Government is an objective outside
'~BEi;. I am not arguing; I just want to make sure. So
int on this, and I will leave that issue-not the whole
ty thing, but that particular aspect of it-is that the
t attorney, county district attorney, in addition to call-
acquaint you WIth Mr. Billingslea's-was it Billings-
d:,ll. Billingslea, right.
jDEN [continuing]. Mr. Billingslea's accusations and
l.ddition to that, did he say to you, "Mr. Sessions, I
150
hope you handle this case. We do not want to handle it:'
handle it"? I mean, what did he say, beyond~- ... ,
Mr. SESSIONS. He indicated that the case was such that it ri
an outside force to investigate it, yes.
Senator BIDEN. OK. Now, Mr. Johnson
talking about, right?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. And Mr. Johnson sent you a letter on Sept
2, 1982, and then he sent you a letter on August 31, 1984, an,
_September 28, 1984. And I would like to read from one, if
Re voting fraud investigation-
This is from the September 2, 1982-
Re voting fraud investigation, Perry County, AL.
My office has received several complaints of irregularities in regard to th"
iog election on Tuesday, September 7. These complaints range from imptii
iog of absentee ballots to possible fraud in reidelitification. ..:1,
The most serious allegations concerning interference with absentee balf
elude fraudulent receipt and marking of ballots. The large number of abie,
lots requested by voters in this county. in excess of 800, with 7,857 registere
creates the possibility that fraudulent absentee ballots may make a si~ifi'
ferenee in the results of the election,
My staff· has looked into the allegation, and the reports indicate the J;1
extensive investigation in the voting process in Perry County, My ,offi~
have anywhere near the manpower to conduct such a.largescale probe. Ap
I feel it would be best that an independent agency from outside the counf
the probe so as to avoid any possible hint of favoritism or partiality. · . \ , ' i
Therefore, please consider this letter to be an official, urgent request for
ble assistance in conductin~ this investigation; I cannot overemphasize t
tance and the urgenCy of thIS request, for without the help of your agency,'
cannot actually investigate all the allegations and possible ramifications',
thorough investigation, I think the results of this election will cdnt~
showered in accusations and acrimony. .: 'it
My office staff has prepared reports specifying the evidence uncovereds
these reports will be made available upon request to aid your evaluation <>
ousness of this situation.
Please contact me with all possible- dispatch regarding this case.
the essence.
Very truly yours, Roy L. Johnson,
Essentially the same letter was sent in August 1984 an
ber 1984. . ..
Now again, for the record, why did you-if it was you "ll
it was sent to the voting fraud investigator-why did you rl
in 1982, but then moved in 1984? "
Mr. SESSIONS. In 1982, Mr. Johnson, I believe, told me tli
were problems involving two ballots, or a few ballots, that
tered that he had proof of, and there were other irregular'
I did not feel that those irregularities were such that' it'd.
a Federal investigation. He conducted one, and I respect
vestigation. They saw fit not to go forward, and Isai
thought also, sincerely, that you would not have that'·
the future after he had investigated and everybody had
quainted with t'he rules and the law of voting absentee..
In 1984, we had complaints from black officeholders. T
an election contest filed. Three of the four contestees we
They were the ones that were complaining. They were aT
the election was going to be stolen from them. They Were
151
ed about it: And I do not believe a U.S. attorney could refuse
estigate when the district attorney says his partiality is sub-
question t because he has got to run for office in the county,
lbert Turner would be an opponent of his, certainly, if he in-
ted him, or maybe he already was on the vote.
was transparent to me that it was appropriate for the Fed-
vernment to investigate.
tor BIDEN. Did you seek and/or receive the reports that
, erenced in these letters?
SIONS. I do not--
r BIDEN. For example, he says that, "My staff has pre-
"rel?orts specifyin/f, evidence Uncovered so far, and these
will be made avaIlable upon request to aid your evaluations
ciu receive those reports?
ESSIONS. I never evaluated them. I believe we received some
in our office after his grand jury in 1983, a good bit of
. I never evaluated those, and 1--
t,or BIDEN. What made you move forward, then?
¥SSIONS. We did not, in 1982.
Jor BIDEN. No; I know. In 1984, though. There were reports
o.
'. ESSIONS. In 1984, what happened was I believe the FBI
who was in Selma, a few miles from Marion, received those
s. I do not believe contemporaneously with that letter, he
ords to Mobile, which is 170 or so miles from there. It is
e.
* r BIDEN. Back to what the basis ofthis thing is. In the affi-
Johnson gets from Mr. Kinard, one of the candidates in
ion, the affidavit does not seem to say much. I may be
,ough. Let me read it, here.
29, 1984 at about 11 a.m., 1 was driving south on Clement Street in the
I AL, canvassing for my campaign,
meot Str,eet. I noticed the Perry Coun.ty Sheriff f'B:trol car assigned to
-y Earl Ford in the driveway. Leaning over the rIght front fender was
urner, a candidate for the election as tax assessor of Perry Count'!. In
e radiator and also leaning over was Albert Turner, president 0 the
nty Civic League. Leaning, over the left front fender was Chief Deputy
rl Ford. On the hood of the patrol car was a brown cardboard box, about 2
eet by 2 feet, filled and overflowing with mailing envelopes of the type
tee ballots are made of. They immediately dispersed .
.~ says where they dispersed to.
!fetring with my brother, Howard L. Kinard, principal of the West Side
,on campaign matters for a few minutes, I departed and observed
is pickup truck closely as I got into my car· • '.
'eluded that that is the kind of-here, you have now a
y investigation that did not come up with sufficient evi-
indict anybody in 1982. You have now, 2 years later, can-
tanding for election giving affidavits to you all about
or not you should move forward. But the affidavits do not
be very compelling. It seems to me the most compelling
have here is a district attorney who feels he is in a pinch
152
I mean, is this the evidence that you moved on-a bOlt'sit
a-- . _,:.,j
Mr. SESSIONS. No. I did not see-the affidavit that isfi

was not realiy given to me. That affidavit was not prep':r
knowledge, by Mr. Johnson. It was prepared by the lawyer
three black candidates who were filing an election contest.
Senator BIDEN. But Mr. Johnson told you he had these a
didn't he? ,;,.
Mr. SESSIONS. He told me that they were filing for an'
contest. I am not sure he mentioned they were attaching
to it or not. But what he told me on the phone was more t
He told me there was a systematic campaign to coliect bal.
change them, and suggested at one point a search warrant.
Senator BIDEN. I understand that. What I am trying to'
here is that if a county attorney from any county calied yo
said, "We have systematic fraud down here; you realir S
vestigate. And let me teli you what I think the fraud IS. It:
to absentee ballots, it relates to this, it relates to that." I'
sumed that the U.S. attorney's office would say, "Well, 1'1
you send me up some affidavits, some evidence, somethiri
tain your assertions that you want me to get into this, as
you want me to get into this?"
Mr. SESSIONS. Not necessarily, just to commence a very:
nary investigation, No. 1.
Senator BIDEN. OK.
Mr. SESSIONS. No.2, he is 170 miles awa¥; we are talk!
day or two before the election, and somethmg had to mov
it" ••
No.3, we did not do anything but realiy very low ke
served the post office. And let me teli you what rewlyco
an investigation. If the ballots had been opened,and'
peared to be no irregularities in them, an investigation"
gone no further. '
Senator BIDEN. Opened at what point?
Mr. SESSIONS. When the absentee baliot office opened
ed the baliots; there appeared to be some 35 or so that 'll',
cant changes as you have seen on this baliot, plain to
, Senator BIDEN. Out of 700?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. There were 75 that had some form 0
on them out of the 700. " .
And there seemed to be a pattern in these dramatic,',
from opponents to Turner candidates to Turner candi
though it was not certain, but it did definitely appear.
So, Mr. DeSanto was involved in that, I know, and every
cussed it and decided that every ballot that was changed;·
it was a Turner ballot or not, the voter would be intervie .
if they consented to the change, and 75 interviews were do
Senator BIDEN. OK. I think anybody who changes ab •.
violates the spirit and the letter of what we are all abo
country. ,')'
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, it is horrible to change somebody'sol
Senator BIDEN. But having said that, keep in mind my
here. You started off with this district attorney saying
widespread, significant corruption. "
153
ESSIONS. My assistant told me that in 1982, there was some
revidence of corruption and that we could possibly have
with a case in 1982.
'lIIDE':'. Now, this widespread, significant corruption nar-
, to, out of 700 ballots that were cast. 75 had some mark-
em, and 39-1 think that was the number-39 had more
marking, and 27. after interviewing 75 people, warrant-
her words, I am trying to get the magnitude of this.
IONS. I understand that. I do not consider that small at
ea person's ballot-one good instance of that is serious.
e 'and pick up your ballot. and you voted for one person,
k over here and change it and cast it in, that is horrible.
fiot just a pettl crime. To do that 25 times is a systematic
of great magnItude. I honestly believe no U.S. attorney
'hese circumstances could have declined to investigate.
tor BIDEN. OK. Now, let me get this. How many times since
ebeen the U.S. attorney has your office been contacted by
also whether they are elected officials or just citizens,
suggesting that they have been intimidated, or there has
aud. or there is something wrong in the electoral process?
ESSIONS. Well. there is hardly an, election that goes by that
"on day, the calls do not come in. But you can tell whether
e got an indice of some sort of reliability there or not, in
ase cases.
"one investigation that I frankly did not know about
talked to Mr. Govan, in which I believe about slE or eight
ere interviewed, and I am told they were white, in a rural
'ltild it allegedly involved some buying of votes, but it just
be established, and it did not go forward.
BIDEN. Why couldn't it be established? Obviously, this
be established. either, as it turned out.
et ,than whether it could or could not be established, what
'Teach the judgment in that case that it could not be es-
.'the vote buying'?
"aIONS. Senator 13iden. I think there are some pretty clear
and there are some grey areas. In the case that I am talk-
t that we had eight interviews of people. it was an anony-
, and they went out and interviewed everybody. In that
o not believe any U.S. attorney in the country would think
,IihY of prosecuting.
BIDEN. Look. all I am trying to get at here is I want to
easure of the man here. I want to figure out how you ap-
these things. And so I would like to-let us stipulate for the
this discussion that in fact your efforts in Perry County
tally warranted, that no U.S. attorney, black. white. with
,no experience to years of experience. would have done any-
'her than what you did. Just for the sake of this, let us stip-
that.
an example. or give me your rationale, why in the case
ht voting purchase allegations. that you reached a dif-
usion.
IoNs. First of all. in the purchase voting case, it was not
't there was any purchase. There were allegations of it,
never proven.
154
Senator BIDEN. Well, obviouslY'I't was not in this case, eif
mean, let us not talk about proo because obviously, you dl
prove in your case. 1 am prepared to stipulate you should.
brought it, but there was no proof, obviously. ,:',
Mr. SESSIONS. There was proof, Senator; it just did not satill
jury. ' . ' "
Senator BIDEN. O!q. ....
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Stavis argued brilliantly that a j\lry 1s'a
valve, that Mr. Turner was a hero, and a jury has a right
give. As an attorney and a prosecutor, I know you' knowth
cannot be certain what is going to happen with a jury, Ail:
lawyer, I know you.know that you can evaluate cases,an.,,'
are some cases you would not have any disagreement on. I
believe any attorney who evaluated, from my point of view,
have d i s a g r e e d . . " ,
Senator BIDEN. I am prepared to stipulate to that. But I th:
should act like lawyers and use the terms of art precisely. .
Mr. SESSIONS. All right. .,'
Senator BIDEN. I am used to saying when there is proof th,lI;
means that under our legal system, the vehicle for deter
whether or not there is proof has concurred with my jud
whether it be a judge or a j u r y . .
How many of these indictments were submitted to the J
mean, how many counts were submitted to the jury in the
County case?
Mr. SESSIONS. I believe eight counts were dismissed.
Senator BIDEN. Eight counts were dismissed.
Mr. SESSIONS. Out of the 29.
Senator BIDEN. So 21 counts--
Mr. SESSIONS. Do not hold me to that, but that is about rig
Senator BIOEN. But let us get back to the case of the"""
know nothing about; I am seriously inquiring-the case oH
purchasing allegations. How did you conclude-why did·
elude that there was no proof-that no one said there"
chase?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. They went out and interviewed th
nobody would say they were paid or anything. ';3
Senator BIDEN. That is all I am trying to find out. . "
Mr. SESSIONS. That is right. I am sorry. The Department
tice also on the case in 1984, Mr. DeSanto came down at on
read all the grand jury statements of the witnesses, he d!"
indictment. He told me he thought it was a very strong c
close case, a very strong case. .
Senator BIDEN. Now, with regard to the issue of whetlf"
you, the Federal Government, subpoenaed the ballots, a'l1'
you subpoenaed the ballots, can you refresh my recoll~c.
that, in the Perry County c a s e ? , : . ' , : ;
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. In the Perry County case, I cannot r~
date that we issued a subpoena. My assistant. was condu9
investigation on a daily basis. Apparently what happened
Johnson subpoenaed the ballots and then he allowed the'
the FBI access to those ballots, and they conducted the i
tion. "
155
. snator BIDEN. I am sorry. I apologize. fwas checking on some-
g, and I did not-would you repeat that?
r. SESSIONS. Yes. Apparently Mr. Johnson--
nator BIDEN. The county. attorney. .
.' SESSiONS [continuingj. The district attorney-I understand
he did issue a subpoena for the ballots. He got them; they COn-
.d aninvestigation--
tor BIDEN. On election day. "
,·SESSIONS. Yes. He got them after they had been counted
well, it may have been the next day.
litor BIDEN. Yes, OK. .
;,SESSIONS. He got· them and counted them, or he got them
nalyzed them. He made those available to the FBI when they
d. the pattern, and the FBI agent went over from Selma and
xamined the ballots, and plans were commenced to do an in·
ation. At some point, I asked, "Has a subpoena been issued
eballots?" and they said no, and I thought it was appropriate
ue one on behalf of the United States. And I am the one, I
; who said to m~ assistant, "I think you ought to issue a sub· 'I.
for the ballots. '
tor BIDEN. Do you know why a subpoena-you know, you I
. ed out the courthouse; you watched the ballots being mailed,

500 or so ballots being mailed; you had reason from that in
testimony to believe that there were improprieties. Why
't you issue a subpoena that day, or the next day, for the bal-
./SESSIONS. Well, the matter was under the direction of my as-
t, and I will take responsibility for my office. But that Was
· d of decision that you expect a lO-year assistant to make. I
· think,in defense of him, that there was any requirement to
subpoena at all. .
, tor BIDEN. No. What I am trying to get to here is the conti-
'J/of reasoning relating to how you got into and pursued the
,so I, can set it to rest in my mind at ieast.
have made the case that based on 1982 grand jury state-
based on the 1984 call from Mr. Johnson, based on the alle-
,by the two people standing for election, the two black men
ade the allegation, that you believed there was the prospect
ufficiently serious case here that warranted you making this
I inquiry and the inquiry, related to observing the post office
ight before the election. You have taken me up that far. And
the next thing it would seem to me that would have been
I am not arguing it should or should not have been done, it
at have to be done; I am not making that argument; I do not
enough to know, to be honest with you-but I am just curio
hy. Also in this mix is that Mr. Johnson did not want to
· this thing because of all the reasons you said-he might be
~g for election, he might get into the middle of it. But yet,
.on subpoenas the ballot. Obviously, Turner and everyone
ho were supposedly the reason why Johnson called you-he
riot want to have to handle it locally, which I understand, I
stand-but yet he goes and issues the subpoena. Now, obvi·
",tome that is like a great, big red flag saying, "Hey, Turner,
,e,'guy."
156
If Turner were going to engage in retribution in th~ next'
tion, it sure in heck would seem to me, if I were Johnson,
worried about that, that I would not issue the subpoena. I
want to be able to sit back here and say, "Hey, old buddy, y
a great hero, and I hate to see this happen to you, but that
U.S. attorney's office." .
Mr. SESSIONS. It was not so much that he was afraid of
knowing he was participatin~ in the investi~ation. It was th
effectiveness of the prosecutIOn is affected If you are pros.
somebody who is your political opponent and who is capable
ing votes to defeat you.
Senator BIDEN. Now let me ask you, was Turner a politic'
nent of Johnson?
Mr. SESSIONS. I assume so, since when he did not like som
as Billingslea and Kinard said, there is no question about it
Mr. Johnson had investigated him in 1982, and my impressio
that Mr. Johnson would not have been on Mr. Turner's slate,:
Senator BIDEN. OK. Now, as I am reconstructing this, you
guy named Johnson who investigates a powerful civic leade
not use that civic-that sounds-I mean, I want to be disp
ate-investigates a well-known political figure in his coun,t
investigation comes to naught. That well-known political'
knows the local county attorney, district attorney, has donel
there is apparently some-if there was not already-some p
animosity, even potentially bad blood. .
I mean, if you all are like we are in southern Delaware
part of my State, it would be likely that there would not be:':
love lost. .r
Now, 2 years later or thereabouts, this U.S. attorney.
effect, "I know something is going on down here. I was not
prove it myself 2 years ago. And the guy that I know tMt
ting this down is a guy that you know IS my political oPI'
have got two of his political opponents sitting here, telling:
he did something bad." Andyou say, "OK. That is enough
forward," without asking, "Well, give me some proof; give.
data." ,:;;
I mean, did you ask yourself when you sat there, is this·
local district attorney trying to nail his opponent, and
you to do it?
Mr. SESSIONS. We had examined evidence in 1982, aceo
my assistant, that indicated serious voter fraud. Youha\'
on district attorneys and what they tell you, also. A U.S.'
who just refuses to respond to the request-I had already
once to respond-really is not doing h i s J o b . . .1 <
We did tale just a preliminary action, and when. the b .
opened, there were what appeared to be patterns in theal
And only the ballots that were changed-the people whoa
had changes on them-were interviewed. If it were only 0
changes, or three or four changes, and the voter said, "It
with my permission," and those were elderly voters or
like that, I imagine that investigation would havee
there.
Senator BIDEN. Well, look, I guess I do not know eno
the case. All I know is that you make a convincing caset
157
asonto go forward, But ad'ury reached the conclusion that
was not any reason to fin anybody guilty for whatever the
,nale, And 1 do not have the opposing attorney here to make
se that your characterization is something less than airtight.
'd so 1 get into thinking to myself, knowing how these things
in other-maybe it does not happen in the South a lot, but
,kinds ofthings happen in the border States and in the North-
n States-I mean, I am not far from the Stillman's gym of
rican politics, Philadelphia, I mean, I understand politics a
bit, And let me read this characterization in the Advertiser,
tgomery, AL, February 11, 1985, by Alvin Benn, B-e-n-n, Ad-
ar staff writer,
says, IIJohnson, however, said the ballot numbering was done
rly, and within the law, He said that several Perry County
, ates who had opposed the group led by Turner asked him for
g safeguards' before the September 4 Democratic primary,"
is Johnson: " 'They were contesting the election in advance
se of violations they believed had been committed in tha past,
, n said, 'They came to my office for help.' "
j here you have a man who has a reputation for being one
r a guy like me-one of the heroes of the civil rights move-
, I remember hearing about him being the guy who was there
rtin Luther King's funeral and led the cortege, And he is the
ho went across the bridge and was in the front, et cetera,
here you have a guy who is obviously, among those of us
e4Jn the civil rights movement, a national figure, not just a
Igure', And a political opponent of his who tried once before
iled comes with two other opponents of his, whether they are
or white-in this case, they are black-and says, "This guy is
g the election from us."
J'have yet to hear, other than that assertion, what element
f you asked for to sustain why you anticipated in 1984 that
s going to be stolen, or might have been stolen, That is what
, ing to get to,
ESSIONS, Yes--
tor ElllEN, But you were not, and you did say, and you are
,this is an issue with you, as it would be-I mean, if you had
n the bridge at Selma-not that you should have been; you
ly were not around; you were probably too young to walk
nd I am not being smart when I say that-but if you had
the bri4ge at Selma, and you had never said anything in
therwise, like has been brought out here today, then people
pobably-you know, you would not be burdened with this,
SIONS, Right.
BIDEN. But you were not, and you did say, and you are
with it now, And so what I am trying to get to is the rna-
'i whether or not you in fact are wiiJing to take less asser-
proof because of a prejudicial view you have, Or whether or
in fact had sufficient proof, regardless of whether or not
have a prejudicial view.
'!understand what I am getting at?
ESSIONS. For example, Senator, we were told in 1982 that
dJna request for an absentee ballot, and the officials send
Ilbsentee ballot by mail, We were told that there were 100
158
or more applications for ballots, sent on which
forged.
We were told, and my understanding was, that therewerr'
least two colorable claims of alterations on ballots that Mr. J'
son sought an indictment on in 1982. In 1984, we were comin'
on the same--
Senator BIDEN. Let me stop you there. Mr. Johnson, a poli
opponent of Mr. Turner, says those things to you, goes to his
grand jury and does not get an jndictment. ' "0:
Now, my problem is you seem to believe a political oppo'
more than you believe a grand jury. , >:"1
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I am told that the grand jury split'
down the middle, almost, one vote difference.
Senator BIDEN. On what grounds, what b a s i s ? , .
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not know. I assume that they felt that'it'
not enough, or they-- _,'"
Senator BIDEN. No one told you it split down the middle onr
Did anybody ever tell Y O U - - j
Mr. SESSIONS. I understood that that was part of it; yes. S,
grand jury issued that report, though, and called on us to' in
gate, and we did not, because the situation was not serious en
We did h a v e - - ' .
Senator BIDEN. It was not serious enough then. So what.
what proof did you have that made it change to convince you
it was now serious enough, other than the assertion of a white
trict attorney who is feuding with a black political leader, and,
black opponents of that person saying that they expeG1;ed.th
tion to be stolen? " '
Mr. SESSIONS. I am getting tired.
Senator BIDEN. I do not blame you. So am 1.
Mr. SESSIONS. Let me explain it to you this way, and yow n
understand t h i s - - : '
Senator BIDEN. I want to understand.
Mr. SESSIONS. We did not present a case to the grandj
did not seek an indictment. All we did was observe the p
to see if anybody did bring the ballots, as they said their
tion was that night, and if an investigation were to be
ful-- ,
Senator BIDEN. Now, you found that an unusual occurr
by itself, the fact that they bring 500 ballots at one shot
them in the-that, all by itself, is unusual enough, is t
Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, certainly-not necessarily unusual ell
you had the prior 'problems in 1982. You had Mr. Kinard
mentabout torn up envelopes that he had seen, andyouh
gations by Mr. Billingslea that he had information that:-
were being altered. And so all we did was observe the
noted which ones were mailed by Turner and which 0
mailed by Hogue that night so they could be traced bac
ballots were observed. Of the 700 ballots, only 75 peoplew
viewed, and those--
Senator BIDEN. Well, that is only because only 75 ba
changed, r i g h t ? ! ' "
Mr. SESSIONS. Had changes, right. But they were pratt·
changes, wouldn't you say, Senator, as is shown on thatc
159
enator BIDEN. You know, 1 am not arguing that. I am just
. gto-~
• SESSIONS. And so from then on-so each step sort of led to
ther. And 1 do not believe that you could do otherwise.
, 0 else can investigate? It is either the district attorney or the
'Who, is better? The FBI? Who could have the most credibility
ecommunity? Who has the most manpower to handle it?
nator BIDEN. OK. Let me-and I will yield to my colleague
11 and come back to my questions-but let me just finish up
a couple things here for now.
~,Votmg Rights Act, the intrusive piece of legislation. You ex-
ed what you meant by intrusive. Do you think it is a good act?
.,U said Ilintrusive, but necessary," I thought.
",SESSIONS. I think it is absolutely necessary.
,at,or BIDEN. As it is now, you thmk it is necessary.
:, SESSIONS. So far as 1 know. I understand there is some dis-
about a clause or two in it about--
'!ltor BIDEN. Preclearance, it is called.
; SESSIONS. Well, no.
atar BIDEN. That is part of the problem-is it or isn't it?
'SESSIONS. Well, I think everybody pretty well accepts that,
gh preclearance-there are various degrees of what needs to
eared, and ll'0od people can differ. But the Voting Rights Act
[y enfranchIsed a disenfranchised substantial minority.
ator BIDEN. Thanks. I will let my colleague ask some ques-
,*and then come back.
you.
~br HEFLIN. Mr. Sessions,we have mentioned Mr. Thomas
s, and I indicated that Mr. Figures worked in your office for
's: When he left, was there an unpleasant relationship be-
."u and Mr. Figures?
, SiONS. Let me explain it this way. Mr. Figures is a fine
. He' argues a case beautifully. He prepares his cases thor-
ito a fault, perhaps. And he does a beautiful job of handling
'ases. And I respected that. He is meticulous about his work,
'handled a number of different cases in the office.
not an easy person to work with, in all honesty. One of the
hat came up was these cases that the FBI had been talking
attorneys about, civil rights cases. And that caused him
"ot think Mr. Figures ever knew that 1 talked ta the FBI
't think I told him I had taken care of it. But I specifically
to the FBI agents who normally handle civil rights Cases
d them never in the future to present them to anyone but
had promised him that, and I meant to see to that. I went to
I supervisor and told him that. But I think that was some-
reo
\Oered all communications with the office after he left.
,the office would try to speak and so forth. But I was sur-
hen he quit. We were up in Selma, trying the case, when I
d he was quitting, and it was quite a shock to me.
r HEFLIN. Well, as I understand it, there is, in the ope,..
,the U.S. attorney's office, a procedure by which, when a
t is being investigated it will often be turned over to an
160
assistant U.S. attorney such as Mr. Figures. And there is apr"
by which the U.S. attorney's office can make a recommendati.
the Justice Department that they decline to pursue a caS
they generally forward that recommendation to the Justice
ment for final action.
It has come to my attention that you have remark .',
member of your staff-and I assume this is Mr. FigUI'
might be wrong-that you wish that you could decline
rights criminal cases. Do you recall ever making that state
Mr. Figures-or to any member of your staff?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. And in fact, while I have disagr
really, not that much disagreed-I probed hard and expre
givings about some of the vote dilution cases that the Depiir
has filed and asked my signature, and I believe I have signe4
one. That is my duty to be sure of the pleading before I signS
But as to criminal civil rights, I feel pretty strongly abqu£.
feel very strongly about that. As a matter of fact, I spoke 'j;l),l
of police association that was meeting in Mobile, the State c
police, and I told them in almost these exact words, I said,."
going to continue our investigations of civil rights. We'"
work with police, but do not think there is going to be a ch
that." And I called on them, and I pointed out to them-
member saying this-it was just 20 years ago that blacks .
enfranchised all over this country down here. They ha
bused by police, as you well know. They do not necessat
the police to investigate themselves. And they have a righ
is proper that the FBI will be called on and respond to th
tigations, and that will happen and continue to happen.
Senator HEFLIN. As I understand it, there are stateme
will probably be brought up by other witnesses, and my p~
to give you an opportunity to respond to them; at least the.
ny lays a predicate for an issue for the committee to coneide
on an occasion when there was a recommendation to pursuE3
which you wanted to decline or which you did not want to.
you are quoted as having said, "You must think this is Ne"".
This is Alabama." "
Did >,ou make such a statement, and if so, do you hava"a
planatIOn? . c,
Mr. SESSIONS. At first-well, I think that I may have saic;!·
ragard to evaluation of a case that I Mr. Figures hadi
Sammy Murray, and then he came to me and asked that it.
missed, and we were discussing the jury appeal of it, and
concerned about some of the jury appeal. I may have made,
did not really think anything significant about that comment!
Senator HEFLIN. Who is Sammy Murray? "
Mr. SESSIONS. This was an individual with the Corps of
neers. Mr. Murray had, unbeknownst to Mr. Figures or me,
ally, I never knew the case was even in the office; it was brou
by an FBI agent a few days before a grand jury. And Mr.
as he has a right to do and as I encouraged, presented that
few days later to the grand jury. I signed the indictment with!
dence that it was an OK case. '
I say it happened that fast. That is my general recollectio,
161
r that, it was discovered that Mr. Murray had been in litiga-
,·th the Corps of Engineers over his personnel situation. Ap-
, he had been ordered to move from near Demopolis to a
Mississippi with the Corps of Engineers. He moved over
"' dfiled a claim for the moving of all his furniture, $2,000 or
'~hd that claim went in to the Corps of Engineers manage·
d their inspectors or whatever found that he did not move
iture, that he never moved, because he had his transfer on
,apparently. So that was false claim. It appeared to me on
, of it to be a clear false claim.
,ne of us knew that at the time. Later, his lawyer called and
his is a vendetta against Mr. Murray." He said that, "At
, you ought to dismiss this case," because Mr. Murray was
someone at the Corps of Engineers that if he did not go on
binit his claim for furniture, he could not file later, if he was
wait too long. So that is why he was forced into filing that
igures said based on that, and the fact that the Merit Sys-
tection Board had criticized the corps for their handling of
rray that he wanted to dismiss the case.
iscussed it. I suggested that Mr. Murray be inquired of as to
the corps told him to go ahead and file the claim, and if
true, we would dismiss immediately. But I was not in-
o dismiss because he had been wrongfully transferred.
or HEFLIN. I understand that on approximately four occa-
ou turned over to Mr. Figures records of investigation and
'r. Figures to recommend a declination, and when Mr. Fig-
hcluded that the cases warranted reinvestigation, you as-
the cases to another attorney, who then recommended de-
the cases;, that the files were forwarded by you, Mr. Ses-
", the ,Justice Department, with a memorandum describing
e ,conclusion and the recommendation of the second attar-
dthat in a nuinber of instances, the Justice Department re-
by asking for an additional investigation and alleged that
Justice ultimately accepted the recommendation to de-
es~ cases, it apparently acted without the knowledge of the
.,fecommendation to the contrary, which was made by Mr.
, Mr. Figures' recommendation have been forwarded to the
ent of Justice, and if so, why wasn't it?
ESSIONS. Senator Heflin, that matter really, I think, is com-
wrong. First of all, let me say that our office, we have an
oar. Agents come in and talk to lawyers all the time. And in
,Cases that.I found that have been handled-and I believe
,.' all of them in 1973, 1974 and 1975-by Mr. Figures, that
ase that came in, I assigned to him. Occasionally an agent
'come down and talk to another lawyer in the office about a
':And one of the reasons to talk is he thinks he has done
'investigation at that stage, and he is asking for advice.
f the reports say, instead of declining, they say, "The assist·
,S. attorney recommends no further investigation at this
,\,g~cause the report has not come in at that time; the attor·
gust talking to the agent.
162
Then, if the assistant says no further investigation, the"
puts the evidence together m a report; a copy comes to my 0
and a copy goes to the Department of Justice, Civil Rights DiVis
in Washington, who has the final say-so on it.
When that report would come acrosS my desk, I assigned t
all to Mr. Figures, except one which involved a nut that I kneW
assistant in the office already knew about. So I just assigned'(
one to him, and it was not a serious case at all. '
The problem we had on those cases is that-Mr. Figure~;,
have read something into it as sinister, but he would be highf'
taken in that. ,When that report would come in, I would send
him even though another lawyer in the office had issued a p'rel
nary opinion. And when he questioned me about it, I said, 'I
you to evaluate it and give your opinion. You can ask for an
tional investigation. You can talk to the Department of Just!
I do not believe that Mr. Figures would say I ordered any
that he handled to be dismissed or not proceeded with. I h
never rejected a request that he return an indictment in a cas
may have said, "I do not know that you need any more investi
tion in a matter," but I do not believe I really did that. "
I told him one time, "Sure, the FBI gets tired, and they do:
want you sometimes to call up ask for more and say, 'Look, I "
done all this investigation, and now you want me to interview
or six more witnesses,''' I told him, "You make them work.
have them do whatever you want to do."
Senator HEFLIN. I understand, too, that we have heard
thing about one criminal civil rights case which was succ
prosecuted involving the lynching of a young black man name
chael Donald by a group of Ku Klux Klan members. ';'.
This case was handled by Mr. Figures, Mr. Figures, as I U'
stand it, has indicated that Mr. Sessions repeatedly urged Mi
ures to drop the case, and that you only supported the inv'"
tion when Mr. Figures refused to agree to discontinue iL
true, or not true? .'," ',j
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir; that is not true, That case W!l$
office, and the murder had taken place maybe 5 months
became U.S. attorney. The State district attorney had in(jic
wrong people in the case and had to dismiss his case, and 0
at some point came to a point where nobody really knew
do,
Mr. Figures definitely did not wa!'t to ~ee th~ investigatj
He asked the FBI to go out and remterYlew WItnesses, and'
curred in that, or I was aware of it, and they were reirite"'"
That came back, and-I remember distinctly saying, "Wi!
Who did this murder, and we do not have proof noW, but We
go do something about it," ' ,'"
Mr, Kowalski and Mr. Glenn came down from the CiVi
Division, and we had a conference and discussed all the"
tives. And I am ,the one that said, as I recall, "The onlybtb:
native now is to have a grand jury investigation"-subpoen
bOdy that knows anything about the case, klansmen who
meetings where it may have been discussed, and go foward \Vi
I told them, you can have the special grand jury for that pur
and we will set up any time that can possibly be arranged. ,'"
163
nd that is when Mr. Kowalski and Mr. Glenn and Mr. Figures
ducted a brilliant investigation. They took a case that I do not
k any of us thought we could brin\l'-with any real confidence,
r'U.ition, and turned it into a convictIOn.
, ,'U, say Mr. Figures indicated to me that Mr. Farve, who was
terim U.S. attorney before I became U.S. attorney, had indi-
that he thought the case was at a dead standstill and had to
osed out, or something be done about it.
ever told him to close it out.
ator HEFLIN. There have been some charges that in Conecuh
ly, the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice di-
d the Mobile office to investigate a complaint that black voters
been harassed in Conecuh County and used internal Justice
Srtment procedures which do not require the concurrence or
consultation with the local U.S. attorney. The FBI acts as an
stigative arm of the Civil Rights DiviSIOn. And it is aUeged
when you learned about the proposed investigation, you coun-
manded the Civil Rights Division's order without notifying that
.sion of your action. It is further aUeged that when the Civil
hts Division subsequently realized that no investigation had
n conducted and learned of your action, your aUeged action
,that you had countermanded the investigation, you resisted
'tial request that you cease interfering with that investigation
you w,ere advised by a high-ranking Justice Department offi-
hat the U.S. attorney could not legaUy countermand Depart-
t orders at that time. Do you care to comment on any aspect of
",allegations?
,SESSIONS. Yes, sir. I have given my answer to that previous-
"e best that I could tell when Mr. Biden read the transcript of
ivil.rights attorney who said that, it was focused on a matter
'ling a forged letter on Department of Justice stationery, au-
'ng a preclearance--
stor HEFLIN. Well, if yOU have answered it, I do not want you
'eat. I just missed that. I may have been out of the hearing
hen that was asked. I just want to covei' all of the issues
aVe been raised.
SESSIONS. I would be glad to look into that further, but lam
'convinced that when we find what happened-I believe that
ivil Rights Division believed that, but I think that was incor-
imd I think the record will show that. I think they were in
ith in believing that.
tor HEFLIN. I will turn it back over to you, Senator Biden,
do not want to duplicate some of the things that you may
,ready covered.
tor BIDEN. No. Go ahead. That is the only thing you have
far. Keep goin!!.
HEFLIN. There IS a Dallas County issue..;..;
SSIONS. Judge Heflin, on that question, I think there is a
on. It is possible that I would have said, "Don't proceed on
e"-I mean, not proceed-that I indicated it did not require
er investigation or something, although I am told the report
not indicate I had anything to do with the Conecuh County
But I do not believe that I would have stopped an investiga-
I had only been in a couple of months, and I may not have
164
known what the policies were. Eventually,
oped.
Senator HEFUN. Well, there is another allegation that
Rights Division filed a civil complaint, that normally tli
the local U.S. attorney appears on the complaint, that th,
torney signs the pleadings along with the attorneys in W
The U.S. attorney's role is generally pro forma; and the C
dinarily initiated, controlled, and litigated by the Divisio
Rights of the Department of Justice's attorneys. The Divis!
neys were sent to Mr. Sessions for routine signature ofll'c
to be filed in a case challenging an at·large election sch~
cially discriminatory. It is alleged that Mr. Sessions refus.
the complaint. .,;
Do you wish to comment on that allegation? ..
Mr. SESSIONS. Does it cite which county?
Senator HEFUN. Dallas County.
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Hebert and I talked about that. He
was his recollection that that case was filed before I bec
attorney. Perhaps someone could have seen Mr. Farve's n .
and after I became U.S. attorney, he was an assistant. But tli,
what Hebert told me. I dQ not recall ever refusing to sign "
plaint, although as I say, it is scarey sometimes when you'
complaint, and you are suing everybody in a county gove -.
and you do need to inquire of the lawyer who is asking yoU'
it, the basis for the lawsuit. Oi
Senator HEFUN. On the Perry County issue, one of;th
tions against you is that was brought to your attention.
fraud on the part of whites-and that there was a selected
tion only against blacks, and that there was no investiga
prosecution of the whites. ··.. 1.
Would you care to comment on t h a t ? : .
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; I would challenge that statement.
dence was presented to us at that time of fraud by whites,,!\
anything credible, and I would further ~te that at the;
hearing, I believe Mr. Hank Sanders, who was a law partnat'
flrm that defended the case, stated in his testimony that..
never asked for investigations in the black belt. Our offlcec"
ly was never given any formal request for such an investig
And I called the FBI when that statement was made in the;
and they assured me that they had no indices that show cc. .
against whites and I do not believe that happened. ""
Now, during the trial, there was continual drumbeat, and
very effective in the media, to suggest that this was true,
davits were filed under seal that purportedly indicated tha
had been taking place by other people, I am not sure if tli
whites, in Perry County.
And we filed and tried to get the matters from under
those documents have not been produced. .
Mr. Chestnut, subsequent to the trial, has stated he has t
formation. I personally requested the supervisor of the FBI
to him about that, and he said he would send the materill1•.
am told that it has not been r e c e i v e d . - 1
165
l' so; I think it would be matters that involved technicali-
r than actual fraud, which is the primary focus of this
,"i!ctual changing of a ballot without permission.
r BIDEN. Will the Senator yield for a moment?
r,HEFLIN. Yes. Go ahead.
tBIDEN. Mr. Sessions, you have been here a long time. I
.shave more questions, and so does my colleague from Ala-
ut would you like a cup of coffee or would you like some-
drink, or would you like to take a break?
,SSIONS. A Coke or coffee might pick me up a little bit. I am
red.
BIDEN. Or would you like to take a short break?
SIONS. A break would be great.
BIDEN. All right. Let us break for the next 7 minutes or
,r~cess.]
f BniEN. Let us bring the hearing back to order. The hear·
orne to order.
e had a little session there, and Mr. Sessions has been sit·
lhat table now for almost 6 straight hours. I for one have
,ed the bulk of the areas that I wish to cover. The Senator
:A!abama, similarly so, although to use the Senator from Ala·
,'s phrase, we are just sort of laying a predicate here for the
upon which to have knowledge of whether we believe or dis·
the witnesses who will be coming up on Wednesday and
rtiona.
ve We should end for the day and make a judgment after
tiesses whom we had hoped would testify today, when they
Wednesday, make a judgment after those hearings, in con-
n with the chairman of the committee and the majority of
ilnittee as to whether or not we would ask Mr. Sessions to
ck'again at all before we vote on his nomination.
'u have anything to add to that, Senator Heflin?
tor HEFUN. The only question in my mind now is that since
bert testified and came, I believe that the other witnesses
ave given depositions should appear in person. I do not know
er that could be arranged. That is Mr. Hancock, Mr. Bell,
r. Glenn, and any others who have given depositions. It may
t the evidence is sufficient; I do not know, but--
tor BIDEN. I do not disagree with that. I think that is a
i)fHEFUN. Because it may be that you have the issue of the
ment of Justice, and there might be questions of subpoenas
executive branch-however, I do not want to get into--
ator BIDEN. Who subpoenas whom.
'19r HEFLIN. But if it can be w9rked out, Duke, since Mr.
.. came on his own, it may well be that some of the others
want to come up.
"-SHORT. Yes, sir; we can check it.
tot BlllEN. I think that is a matter we can check, and why
we~this was not designed, Mr. Sessions, to avoid buying you
". I want to make thal clear.
,'SEssIONS. Somebody did.
166
Senator BIDEN. You got your Coke, an>.'Way; you havegot:J
Cokes, now. You have one from the minorIty and one from the '.
jority. '
Mr. SESSIONS. Would you like one? You should be tired, too.
Senator BIDEN. No. I guess I should not kid at this point. Ai(
have observed, kidding can get you in trouble. '"
Let me sug¥est th~n that we adjourn for the evening. We wilt'
commence thIS hearIng on Wednesday the 19th, and subsequ¢il
that, we will make a judgment as to whether or not we ask y
come back. "
I thank you-is there an;Ything you would like to say befo'
close? You have sat here thIS long. ,'"
Mr. SESSIONS. I would like to see the transcripts of the De"
ment of Justice statements that have been quoted. '
Senator BIDEN. We will make available to you anything and e'
erything that we have, and if there is anything that we have ove
looked-I beg your pardon, Senator Denton. I did not know yo
were here. . .,~):
Senator HEFLIN. There might be some witnesses who could,"
relatively short statements. I see Dr. Gilliard, who is a dentist;
a member of the board of education in Mobile County, herei:
not know what his testimony may be. And Elaine Jones has;'
cated that Dr. Gilliard has some problems about returning. I d,
mind, if there are some relatively short statements that cou
disposed of--
Senator BIDEN. Well, let me suggest-and I would like very,
to accommodate the witnesses who have waited so long. Pl\
ly those who have difficulty coming back. But to be fair
and I know that the Senator from Alabama wishes to be
attempting not to be-but I 1'1ade the representation t
leagues on both sides that there would not be any witneil$
I would not like to see happen is a witness testify, for or
and I assume, although I am beinli' presumptuous, but I, '
is against the nomination that thIS witness would be te
and not have those on the other side of the issue have a
cross-examine that witness. And to that extent, that is ~lj
why I would reluctantly-and it is not my prerogative to, .d
I for one think it would be better not to do it. We will try:
out a way to maybe help get rou back. I understand tha~'
gestion made by Senator HeflIn was a courtesy that I lUri"
other Senator from Alabama would like to accommodate, "
think we will both get into, as they say on the east si
mington, DE, "We will be in a world of hurt," if we let t
without people having a chance to cross-examine. '
So I think we should just end it here.
Senator DENroN [presiding]. Well, I believe that my.
league from Alabama deserves the information that we,
announced, Senator Heflin, an agreement between the-',"
Senator HEFLIN. I did not know about that. '"
Senator DENTON [continuingJ. I know you did not, sir;.,t
I mention this-that we let WItnesses go back home,s\i~j
announcement previouslr made; agreed to by our sid,e' '
gestion of the minority SIde, that we reconvene on Wf
a.m. '
=
167
,But that was not my decision; it was a previously announced de-
ion.
nator J3JDEN. It is really my making, I admit. What I just do
want to do is get into a situation where any of my colleagues
able to say, "Hey, Joe, you brought up a hostile witness, and I
not get a chance to cross-examine that witness."
think fair is fair, and we should just let it move on to Wednes-
nator DENTON. I think my colleagues would agree that this has
a long hearing. Six hours is unprecedented in my time here. I
reciate the objectivity which has been shown, and I think we all
. that Mr. Sessions has shown considerable endurance, persever-
e, and patience in this, and I want to express the regret of the
'. ire committee to those witnesses who did come today. There was
o plot to deny anyone the opportunity to testify. It is inconvenient
you, and we apologize for that.
o Mr. Sessions, you are prepared to come back-you are fin-
. ; OK. You are finished, subject to future discussion and decl-
which the chairman of the committee wi!! announce. And the
r witnesses will be back at 10 a.m. on Wednesday, in accord-
with the previous agreement.
's hearing stands adjourned.
reupon, at 8:08 p.m., the committee was adjourned, to recon-
ednesday, March 19, 1986, at 10 a.m.]
l\1INATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III,
o BE U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTH·
:aN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

U.S. SENATE,
Washington, DC.
'Ii committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in room
26, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jeremiah Denton
g chairman) presiding.
present: Senators Specter, East, Biden, Kennedy, Heflin,
imCln.
f present: Duke Short, chief investigator; Frank Klonoski~ in·
gator: Joel Lisker, counsel; and Cindy LeBow, minority cnief
I.
'ator DENTON. The hearing, will come to order.
recognize the presence of our distinguished colleague from
rna, our senior colleague, Senator Heflin. We are hoping that
;Senators will appear shortly.
ve an opening statement. If not many Senators show, we are
th what they 'are going to read in the press or see on televi·
, their sOurces of information. The transcript they will not
.\ViII probably not even be ready by the time we have the
d; with reliance upon the basic honesty of journalism, I
t that this is the first opportunity to present witnesses \Vho
'~Perry County. the first opportunity to present a recanta-
evidence submitted against Mr. Sessions by two U.S. Depart-
fJustice attorneys, one, Mr. Hebert, one, Mr. Hancock, by
ion.
Ie,," I
these recantations are significant. believe the wit.
'from Alabama today, black and white, Democrat and Rel'ub·
r and against Mr. Sessions are the key to justice in Mr. Ses-
se.
, of the sworn testimony we heard on March 13 in this very
!from a Justice Department witness was false and he has
'~sued his recantation.
.. d... ·a deposition which was placed in the .record has, also
anted and we will hear from that witness in, person, Mr.
ncack, this morning. .,
int is that the dialog and deeds attributed to Mr. Jeff Ses-
re attested to here in person in sworn testimony by Mr.
(169)
170
Hebert and a sworn deposition by another attorney who will '
here today, and it turns out that that to which they attested
not correct. Certainly, what is remaining after these two reca
tions, namely memories of one of the two about what Mr. Sessi
said in off the cuff and private conversations, would fall into <1,0
and there will be testimony today which will show you justdi
much doubt should exist with respect to that kind of conversa,
that was recounted. ",.;
We heard the testimony of J. Gerald Hebert, a senior trial at
ney of the Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, here
March 13, 1986. Mr. Hebert had been interviewed on March 12
investigators of the full committee, and the particular question
p,oint, is a question raised by the minority investigator, Mr. Gov '
'Do you know whether he's"-and that is Sessions-"do you 1m
whether he has failed to cooperate or has interfered in cases
other assistants in the Justice Department?" Mr. Hebert rep!'
"Well, I only know what happened with our Conecuh Countyc
but Paul Hancock is in a better position to talk about that th,
am." Mr. Hebert went on to say during this interview that P
that is Hancock-"Paul and I had talked '!bout it and hea
both have a very fuzzr recollection about Conecuh County. It
Paul's case primarily.'
Now, what we are referring to is their allegation that Mr,,'
sions interfered with the Conecuh County case, which was p
the record and part of that which has indicted, in some newspa
and in some minds, Mr. Sessions. .
Paul Hancock told Mr. Govan, the minority investigat%,
March 12, also under oath, "I mean I'm fairly confident that,
investigation was not conducted at Mr. Sessions' request. J,,9
say with as much confidence that the FBI told me that or m
Jeff Sessions told me that." ",;
He went on to say that, "He may have spoken to Mr. S~~~
about it at some point in the process." He goes on, "In fact,. ui~
that I spoke to Mr. Sessions about it and he confirmed tliii
thought that it was an investigation we should not condu,c~'
told the Bureau not to conduct it." , , .;
He went on to reconstruct a whole dialog with Mr. Sessions.
Hancock went on to reconstruct a whole dialog with Mr.~f·
on what was characterized as Mr. Sessions' blocking of the
cuh County civil rights investigation.
Ladies and gentlemen, after these depositions were give"
used by some of my Democratic colleagues against Mr. Sessi
a very damaging manner, Mr. Hebert testified that Mr. S,
had interfered wi,th the Conecuh County investigation. He ,top'
structed a conver~ation with Mr. Sessions on that subject. ,,'
The facts are that these conversations never took place a
with Mr: Sessions. On March 17, 1986, Mr. Hancock llti4
Hebert recanted those portions of their del?ositions on the
interference of the Conecuh County investigation by Mr.
and in'fact checked Department of Justice records which,
nately they did not refer to prior to their depositions. Th
say now tha~ the case did not involve Conecuh County but
County, and Jeff Sessions did not attempt to block the FBI iii
gation but in fact it was his predecessor in office, a Carter ad
171
"appointee. So they had the wrong county and they had the
an. None of that was permitted to emerge during the last
'g. They did not even refer, when they made their allegations
~',him, to their own records.
ar, Senator Heflin and ladies and gentlemen, a lot of what
rd Jeff Sessions accused of saying last Thursday, Mr. Ses-
4anied at the time or said he could not recall saying. Every
lof his that I have known, even his enemies say that he is
bly honest, he will not say that he did not say something
;he is sure he did not say something. And the people who
een accusing him of saying things or saying things he does
'member or things that he absolutely denies having said in
ntext in which they have reported that he has said them.
the newspapers by and large on the first burst after the last
it did not treat Mr. Sessions fairly and simply went on to
the statements that he was accused of having made as if
'ere fact. But on the second burst, at least in the Washington
e editorial and the second article written by the gentleman,
think was extremely inaccurate in his first reporting, Mr.
d Kurtz, who might be here today, wrote articles which I
't were much more fair, but by that time Mr. Sessions had
,in the minds of his colleagues and in the minds of those who
tknow anything about him. He has not fallen in the minds of
"who know him in the southern district of Alabama, however.
'deluge of telegrams from Republicans and Democrats, blacks
hites, from there and from Perry County, it has been over-
·M.
ease let us try to be fair in dealing with Mr. Sessions. I have
with Senator Kennedy. I do not think he would mind if I
'n' this. He has said that he has made clear that he did not
re have reservations about Mr. Sessions' having called the
prosecution in Perry County. He said no, he had to do that.
said, I am still very concerned about the remarks that he
"attributed to him by the civil rights attorneys from the Jus-
partment.
'ave alreadY dealt with one of those long stories. Let us deal
e others. On the NAACP/ACLU being un-American, and
he has been quoted in the papers as having said flatly, I
him repeatedly say that he did not say it in that context, he
'lit if a man in the civil rights activist field, when some of
et involved in international affairs, that some people might
e that what they are doing is counterproductive to them and
fthe things they are saying might be un-American.
j if you want to take a poll in the United States and find out
lIny people believe that about certain individuals, it might

't'Mr. Sessions is not so wild in that, but he never said he
,t that the NAACP or the ACLU were flatly un-American or
unist inspired, yet he has been convicted of it in the media of
d.'
e -all know, the human memory is frail and, as we have ai-
een with the Conecuh County incident, can be severely
when conversations which never took place are reported by
i they are wrong on the counties and they are wrong on
172
What Mr. Sessions said is that when such groups go outsi
area of civil rights issues-I say this again-for racial refo
ti"ities and involve themselves in a foreign !lffairs contr,Q,
there might be a perception by some that the positions they,.
cate are un-AmerICan. He said that. That is a flat fact. H.e
said that he considered the NAACP un-American. Indeed, f
room to my ears he said they were largely responsible for til
rights gains made in the South, and he and this Senator~
said from so many podiums that the biggest thing about the
is that it is now able to draw upon its full most precious
resources, its human resources, namely the blllCk people Y\\.'
put down, delegated to the backs of buses, unable to get eq
cation opportunity or job opportunity. That has improy~d
point where the South is now producing goods and serviC
the best work ethic reported by two national surveys. The'
Alabama has the most black mayors of any State in the.
with the second most, considering its poor population, the,
most gross number, that is whole number, of black elected 0 ...
Per capita, Alabama is about 10 times ahead of any other S'
So things have happened down there and I hope that they
tinue to happen and are not inverted and reverted by w.ha.t,
pens as a result of these hearings. I have not heard any,p
Democratic colleagues, including Senator Kennedy, say !In'
that I did not think were coming from sincerity on .theirp· '
all, theY looked at allegations sworn to in affidavits by this"
Department official and others. They assumed those thin
true. We are learning they were not true, and when the
they are. not true, if they show up at this hearing, I hope th
change their minds. " ,
, On the issue of Jeff Sessions responding to Mr. Hebert's as
that a judge called Jim Blacksher, a white civil rights attorne
traitor or disgrace to his race," it may well be that if the P\!'
of the conversation was to establish whether the judge had ac,
made this statement, that Sessions was simply responding.t
question of whether it was said. Jeff's response could just as.
have been, "Well, maybe he did." In other words, maybe tM.
did say that, because in the final analysis this is what Hebe
trying to ascertain, did the judge say that Jim Blacksher is i
tor or disgrace to his race. So I believe that at best some.
statements attributed to Mr. Sessions have been highly di
and rendered significant beyond any possible just degree..,
Before the hearing proceeds much further, we had bettll
stand what the issue is, because it too has been distorted. T
is, Is Mr. Sessions competent to serve as a judge in the U.S.
court, does he possess the academic and intellectual qualiti
would permit him to serve, does he have judicial temper
he a man of integrity who will decide cases solely on the
evidence and the law? ,
I believe he is, the President believes he is, still believ
and I have heard nothing during the course of this hearin
suade me from this view, and I hope that you will hear til.
today which should remove doubts about him. . "','
The American :Bar Association conducted an extensiYe"'~
tion and examined most, if not all of the same allegations r,
173
llaring 'on March 13. They found these allegations to be with-
erit because in the final analysis the ABA rated him quali-
ave here a statement of endorsement of the Sessions nomina-
om the Mobile Bar Association, which includes both black
hite lawyers, it is dated March 17, 1986. It states:
at Association's firm belief that Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the
of U.S. District Judge, that he has been fair with all persons, regardless of
national origin, and that any suggestions that Mr. Sessions is racially preju-
." ,th unfounded and unfair.
uld like, without objection, to place this statement by the
·Bar Association executive committee in the record.
statement referred to follows:]
ENT ADOPTED BY MOBILE BAR AsSOClATION EXECUTIVE CoMMITl'EE ON MARCH
17, 1986
ecutive Committee of the Mobile Bar Association. Mobile, Alabama, hereb;r
B its endorsement of U.S. Attorney Jefferson B. Sessions, III, for the paSl-
U.S. District Judge for the Southern District of Alabama, and states its firm
at Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the position of U.S. District Judge,
,has been fair with all persons regardless of race or national origin, and that
gestion Mr. Sessions is racially prejudiced is both unfounded and unfair.
r DENTON. I recognize Senator Heflin for an opening state-
STATEMENT OF SENATOR HOWELL HEFLIN

ll;f6r HEFLIN. I have no opening statement other than I would
at, while other Senators are absent, they do have staff indi-
··here and I am sure that they will not rely merely on media
ts as to the decisions that they would make. They have staff
and I have staff people who will be here throughout the
hearing and they will be taking notes and things of this sort.
re that many of them would come; unfortunately we in the
have been best described as a lOO·ring circus, we are due to
hundred different places all at the same time and there are
red different things going on. Of course, that is an exaggera-
ut there are at least a hundred different things going on and
·not cover all of them and we have to depend on staff. Each
as a lar!!e staff and they have fields that they are able to
expert In and they inform us when we are absent what
',r
tor DENTON. Thank you, Senator Heflin. That is very true, if
upport what the Senator said. Their absence does not neces-
. ean that they do not care. I am missing a number of sub-
ttee hearings which my opponents can use in the election of
Twas absent. I have no choice. I chaired from 2 until 9 the
ay, except for chairing in the Senate, presiding. I missed a
;;ofsubcommittee meetings then and I am missing several
·;expect that we will adjourn today at 4 o'clock, because this
as'to be used for something else, so we will be here until 4
·so that room could be prepared for its use for another activ-
·ow call panel one, which consists of Paul F. Hancock, As-
or Litigation, Voting Section, Civil Rights Division, Depart-
174
ment of Justice, Washington, DC; John C. Keeney, Deputy,
ant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of J\!
Barry Kowalski, Deputy Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights
sion, Department of Justice; Albert Glenn, Criminal Section,
Rights Division, Department of Justice; and Daniel Bell, De
Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights Division, Department of.
tice.
If you will all stand, gentlemen, I will swear you in.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give
this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing b
truth, so help you G o d ? "
Mr. HANCOCK. I do.
Mr. KEENEY. I do.
Mr. KOWALSKI. I do.
Mr. GLENN. I do.
Mr. BELL. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. KEENEY, DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATT
GENERAL, CRIMINAL DIVISION; PAUL F. HANCOCK, ASS.!
FOR LITIGATION, VOTING SECTION, C.!VIL RIGHTS nIV
BARRY KOWALSKI, DEPUTY CHIEF, CRIMINAL SECTION,'
RIGHTS DIVISION; ALBERT GLENN, ATTORNEY, CRIMINA
TION, CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION; AND DANIEL BELL, DE
CHIEF, CRIMINAL SECTION, CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, DE
MENT OF JUSTICE
Senator DENTON. I will recognize Deputy Assistant
General John C. Keeney and I would suggest that he rna
statement he cares to and then introduce his colleagues i
order as he chooses to make their statements.
Mr. KEENEY. Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I are here
ferent missions. My mission is to discuss the Perry Count
the Turners and Hogue case. "
Senator DENTON. Would you please put the microphone!
closer to your mouth or directly in front? ..
Mr. KEENEY. Is that better, Mr. Chairman?
Mr, KEENEY. As I said, my mission is to discuss the Per
cases, and I would like to briefly describe the history of th
First of all, we have to go back. The cases arose out of
election, primary election, but there is a history that g
before that. In 1982, there was information developed by
prosecutor with a local grand jury showing a discrepancy
writing on registration forms and absentee applications,'
ballots themselves reflected a number of strikeovers. .
Now, one of the difficulties that the local prosecutol"
local grand jury had with the investigation is that they e
identify the strikeover ballots with the individual voter, s
were not able to go back to a-take a particular ballot ba'1!:
voter and ask him or her whether or not that was his or her,'
That is important because this situation changed in 1984. di
Because of their inability to further develop the cases, th
!,Tosecutor and the grand jury itself in Perry County as
Federal Government to take over. They discussed it with
--""'''1'
'li
,j
,I
175
,X¥r.Sessions discussed it with Craig Donsanto of oUr Public
iti Section, who is our specialist on election fraud, and they
:ded that-I guess primarily Mr. Donsanto took the lead in
that the likelihood of developing cases on this record is not
,iantly high to warrant the use of the resources at that time,
,rily the use of the resources of the FBI, which were t h e n ' ! l
u,tilized in two other counties in Alabama on election fraud
','!'hey were also being utilized very heavily in Chicago and
,County in Texas, among others.
, the, pattern that, was reflected .in that grand jury was a
f absentee ballots by a deputy sheriff in his pickup truck
solicitation of absentee ballots by members of the Perry
Civic League. That is the stOry insofar as 1982, and it is im-
asa background to 1984.
,rimilry in 1984 was scheduled for September 4. On Septem-
r. Sessions was advised that the same people were conduct-
same activities, the solicitation of ballots seen in the pickup
f the deputy sheriff. The observations were made by two
primarily, a man by the name of Billingslea and a Colonel
who was a tax assessor in the local area, and they observed
'nvelopes, open election ballot envelopes on the truck of the
" sheriff and they also advised that they had observed a
,together of the activists at the party headquarters, particu-
,e Turners and Mr. Hogue.
, ditional factor was present here that was not present previ-
on,e of the local citizenry went to the circuit court and they
or an .order that would direct the election officials to palr up
,ots that were cast with the envelope, the second envelope in
those ballots were placed which has the name of the voter
at if there were strikeovers or anything on the ballot, that
ividuals-that the investigators could go back to the individ-
fS and ask them whether or not the ballot as it presently
the ballot as it was executed by them.
,rDENToN. Excuse me, sir. If this is something new, would
d" starting that part of it agaln, something
, we have not
'NEY. Well, I think it is a well-known fact of the area, but
pened was that the citizens in-I believe they were the
viduals I referred to, Mr. Kinard and Mr. Billingslea, went
rcuit court and asked for a court order which would order
tion officials in Perry County to authorize the so-called
f ballots, absentee ballots.
'that meant simply was there is an original outside enve·
're is an interior envelope with the name of the voter and
fe is also a ballot inside the interior envelope. What they
I'der for was a direction to the county officials to mark the
rober on or mark in a similar fashion numbers I believe,
e number on the ballot with the voter's name, as is on
'envelope with the voter's name as is on the ballot, so it
investigators to go back and take the individual ballots,
e.w who cast which ballot, and they were then able to go
those people and ask whether or not the ballot as flied was
t that they had executed.
176
~o there was a pairing up of the ballots by thegrapd,'
thIS, and there was one other step, Mr. Chairman. Tn .
mail cover put on. All of this happened very quickly,
September 3, the day before the election. The FBI, an
was observing the party headquarters and noted thllt th
and the Hogues brought in, Turners and Hogue brougn
appeared to be bundles of ballots. ,~;
He continued the observation until he saw Mr. Ifo!l\i
Turner deposit those ballots, those bundles of ballots ilJ
pository. Prior to that time, a mail cover was obtailJecf,.•
abl~d a n:ail official ipside the de.pository· to obserye'"
advIse whICh ballots had been deposIted by Mr. Hogu~ a
ballots had been deposited by Mr. Turner, and he put a "
"H" on the ballots reflecting which of the individuals had
ed the mail.
That, of course, Mr. Chairman, is important because',
into play the mail fraud statute. If there are fraudulent Q
were able to demonstrate the mails were used in conll.el!
them.
I might just put in perspective, because in the past I"
fied on thIS subject before the Edwards committee in,t
and a question was ra:ised as to why the Government'di"
off on its investigation until after the elections were over;'·
, As I mentioned earlier, we are dealing with a primar
here on September 4. There was a runoff election on the
as you and Senator Heflin in particular can attest, the cri
tion insofar as local people are concerned, the local call.
the runoff election in the primary. So the investigatio'
going on the street, as it were, was held off until after
election was held. ,;'""
Now, what did the ballots show? They showed that
ballots out of 709 cast. Of those-we do not usually IO$:
things from the standpoint of race; as a matter of ,fa:
House we were asked for statistics nationwide based tipo
we had to tell Chairman Edwards we do not keep sta:
way, ,Qut we did go back and reconstruct nationally
some reconstruction here at the request of the committ
have the figures here.
, ,.There were five ballots cast by white persons and .
were interviewed they said it was a mistake, they had rna
take and the alteration was theirs. There were 70 ballots
blacks, some of which had the "T" for Turner or the····
Hogue markings on, and 29 of those ballots were changed
lots which had--
Senator DENTON. Do you mean changed illegally?
M,' r: KEENEY. Changed illegally, yes. wei,,I, they, wer,e, eh
then we followed through, Mr. Chairman. and took the
to the individual voters and, based upon the interviews
voters, we, concluded that they were chan~d, yes. ..' :
Now, or those 29 involved with an "H' or a "T" on the
with the "H" an eraser had been used, and those with
black pen had been used for strikeovers. We had one
where the person who purportedly had voted never exeq
ballot.
---,-._~-
177
n that information, the grand jury, which ran from Octo-
ember, and December 1984, returned an indictment on the
anuary 1985, charging conspiracy to violate the mail fraud
'>multiple-voting statutes, also charging substantive mail
d charging substantive violations by Mr. Hogue and Mr.
the multiple-voting statutes.
airman, at every stage of this process the Department of
,Criminal Division, Public Integrity Section was involved.
roved the investigation, as we are required to do. We ap-
:he, indictment. As a matter of fact, one of our people was
e and worked on the indictment and presentation.
airman, it was handled in all respects in a very regular
.. olYowing through on the general enforcement program in
'on fraud area of the Department of Justice.
You.
r DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Keeney. Just so we understand
Perry County election was all about, was this a Democrat-
..Republican election or a Democratic versus Democratic
'·NEY. It was a Democratic primary.
r DENTON. A Democratic primary, with no Republican in-
Was the case apparently whites seeking to perpetrate a
ainst blacks in an election which in newspapers has been
prior to this, or was this principally black people saying
ir votes had been changed and that they were changed
lyby black people?
'ENEY, The complainants were black people who were
Iitically. The victuns were black people and, of course, the
ts were black. "
rPENTON. So the victims were Democratic voters and they
. in race?
~. Yes, sir.
ENTON. I guess Senator Heflin came first. Senator
'" dP,ypu. Mer?
,j'jECONCINI. I have no questions.
'DENTON. Well, I would like to welcome my distinguished
from Arizona and he defers to Senator Heflin, my senior
trom Alabama.
r'HEFLIN. Mr. Keeney, there was the Perry County pros-
.the southern' district of Alabama and there were some
.ons in the northern district of Alabama. Do you remember
ties were involved in that?
liNEY. I do 'not, Senator.
HEFLIN, Greene County or--
'NEY. It was Mr. Bell who prosecuted that.
H'EFLIN. He did no~--
NEY.'! know them by prosecutor rather than by county,
an.
fr' HEFLIN. Well, they had this one in which there was a
11· a1J,d then there was another one, maybe it was Greene
I am trying to remember whether there was any other
Greene County or Greene and Perry County. Since you do
the counties, I will have to elicit that information from
else.
178
, Was this investigation entirely directed toward the abseil
Mr. KEENEY. Absolutely, yes, sir. . ."
Senator HEFLIN. Why was it directed only to the absente
Mr. KEENEY. Because my understanding was those wer~
mary allegations. You see, these were allegations before th
election, Senator Heflin, and we followed through on them.'
eror not there was any fraUd on the election balloting, r
not know, but I do not know of any significant investiga
we conducted with respect to it.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, there have been charges, whethei'
true Or not at this stage it is not for me to say, that thE!,
ment of Justice was directing in Alabama a vote fraudhl
tion in a certain section of the State which is predominant!
and instead of investigating irregUlarities that might hav
place in the past or either establish some pattern that w6,
place in this election, it was centered in what is knowil"
black belt of Alabama as opposed to some other section. ••
Now, there have been allegations of vote fraud in other f"
of the State, One in DeKalb County, in the 1984 electi6
which is a predominantly white, and has a very small pel'
of blacks, and there have been reports that the local Repu
there wanted an investigation as to the absentee box and ab,
voting, but that the Department of Justice declined to go i
Now, that does not pertain to Sessions because he is not'
district and he is in the southern district, but this would be'
the Department of Justice, that there have been selective;p
tions and selective counties where you have conducted you
fraud which have been predominantly black areas.
Mr. KEENEY. Senator-- ",
Senator HEFLIN. As I say, these charges have been mi!ll"
will give you an opportunity to resp,ond to them. ,'t
Mr. KEENEY. I accept the word 'selective" if you willa'
explanation of what we view as selective. We prosecute'.
reactive organization-we prosecute on the basis ofcompl
we prosecute to the extent that we have available resourC
As I indicated, one of the reasOns that we did not ~et
investigation in 1982 was that the FBI investigative resou
spread very thin throughout the country and additional,
tors would have to be brought in in order to fully develo'
vestigation. . . ,"'?'t
The other reason, of course, is when-which you, as' a,C;
tice of Alabama can appreciate-the evidentiary proble,
more severe in 1982 than they turned out to be in 1984.
We have a nationwide program, Senator Heflin, andY{,
to the complaints wherever they may be and we try to"ll..
sources most effectively to have successful prosecutioI)s:'
have a deterrent effect. :
Senator HEFLIN. Well, as I said, you asked me if I wOll:
the word "selective." I just quoted a charge that was rna
is rather hearsay to me, so I do not know, that is not my·
I am saying that that is one of the charges that has b
about the Department of Justice that there are other co
there have been some evaluation of absenteee boxes, wh:
179
,A.;very, high percentage in certain areas of absentee voting as
ed to. the total vote.
'arna is low on absentee voting, it is rather restrictive, and I
at charge has been made and I wanted to give you an op-
y, since you are the deputy in charge of this, to respo!).d.
r position is that other than in the southern district, the
. tters are being handled by someone else?
'EENEY. The other matters are being handled by someone
an Mr. Sessions. All I was saying, Senator Hefli!)., was with
to DeKalb Countr I am not up on DeKalb County to intelli-
.iscuss it today With you. I would be very glad to get back to
,the subject. I was just trying to explain the general policy.
nstance, in 1982, one of the reasons that we did not proceed,
the reasons that we decided not to proceed with Perry
"was the fact that we were active in, among ocher things,
er counties in Alabama.
tor HEFUN. Well, we are not trying DeKalb County, but
!)arge has been made against the Department of Justice more
It has against Mr. Sessions and I was curious about it.
ator DENTON. Would my colleague yield? I have some infor-
I think that might be useful. It was given the other day
you arrived. The best we can obtain on the voting fraud in-
tions in Alabama during the term of the present administra-
as follows: A 1981 Case in Randolph County involved the in-
!)tof 11 people, 1 of whom was black. Three people, all
were convicted, including the incumbent sheriff.
ullock County, in 1983, a black city councilman was indicted
ed guilty to a voting rights violation. In Marshall County, in
ne person, white, was indicted and convicted of charges simi-
the Perry County case. .
p it complete, in DeKaib County, which is principally
e Republican Party has asked for a voting fraud investiga-
thus far there has been none.
r HEFUN. Well, what you are stating, Senator Denton, in-
rimarily convictions. I was speaking about investigations
e .been made.
EENEY. Senator Heflin, maybe I could be helpful to you
pect to nationwide policy. As I indicated earlier, I testified
he Edwards committee on this subject and we were asked
stics on prosecutions, convictions by race, and we told them
ot have them but then we went ahead and got the figures.
e testimony that I gave before the Edwards committee, I
the figures, how many blacks, how many whites, how
ublicans, how many Democrats, how many in the South,
in the North, and so forth. I would be glad to make that
to you, Senator Heflin.
r HEFLIN. Well, I happen to have a copy of this and your
;y'I believe is that investigations a~e presently in progress
,green, Bullock, Lowndes, whereas m Perry local black po-
r.es have brought specific information to our attentIOn
tilied subjects of crimmai actionable conduct.
.n. order to properly put it in perspective, what is the proce-
en you start one and the relationship of the U.S. attorney
Department of Justice? You say you receive complai!).ts.
180
These could have been received by the U.S. attorney or, ¢d
received in Washington. . :
Mr. KEENEY. Yes, sk "
Senator HEFLIN. What is the procedure that is followedtQ
tigate prior to determining whether or not criminal actidij'
be brought and indictment s o u g h t ? : :
Mr. KEENEY. The U.S. attorneys have the authority to CQ
preliminary inquiry which largely consists of interview~"
complainants. Then if they want to conduct a full-scale in
tion they have to get the approval of the Criminal Divisi
Public Integrity Section. Then they go on with the invest
and if they reach a point where they are going to recomm
indictment, the Criminal Division, Public Integrity Secticjni
pass on the i n d i c t m e n t . "
We keep a much tighter control oVer election fraud Cas
we do other type cases, Senator Heflin, for obvious reasons. .
Senator HEFLIN. In this case, as you reviewed it, in the i
that Mr. Sessions had recommended no prosecution, would.t
partment of Justice nevertheless have sought an indictment?
Mr. KEENEY. I do not know. Certainly, we would have cd.'
it, whether or not we would, I do not know because we gi
ence to U.S. attorneys because they are on the scene, t
the witnesses, they know the juries in their district an,d we
great deal of deference. So although we might consider itr'
not say that we would necessarily have overruled himarl
over the case, even though the strikeover allegations were
cant and in my judgment pretty good e v i d e n c e . '
Senator HEFLIN. Well, he cannot institute action for an
ment without the approval of the Department of Justice?
Mr. KEENEY. That is right. :!?,
Senator HEFLIN. In other words, if he desired on his OW!:ll
something, under the procedures that you have outline he
not do it unless the Department of Justice put the stamp ofa
alan it? '
Mr. KEENEY. That is right, Senator.
Senator HEFLIN. I may have something else and,siI1'cf
going to other staff members, I may want to ask him later'
Senator DENTON. All right. '
Senator DeConcini.
Senator DECONCINI. I have no questions.
Senator DENTON. All right. Mr. Keeney, just one final q
In xour overview of this Perry County case and in your "ve
ciVIl rights prosecutions, the entire field in Alabama,.
aware of any improper actions on behalf of Mr. Sessiorr
case or any other?
Mr. KEENEY. May I just correct. I have nothing to do vi
rights prosecutions. My colleagues do. We are broken dow
Department of Justice in that fashion. In answer to your....:
there is no question about my dealings with Mr. Ses~
have been first rate. He is a good lawyer and every deal!
had with him has been fine. I know nothingderogator;y .
Sessions except obviously I read the papers in the last few
Senator DENTON. Mr. Keeney, we have had a request b
posing the nomination, which I will honor. It seems that'
181
<will have to leave prematurely, considering the pace of this
. g. so if I may I will excuse you and ask the others to remain
"we get Professor Liebman's testimony because he has a 12
k plane to catch and there will only be 5 minutes of testimo-
1> you very much.
KEENEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
tor DENTON. Dr. Liebman, would you come forward?
ld you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
timony you will give tcday before this hearing is the truth,
ole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
IEJ3MAN. I do, Mr. Chairman.
tor DENTON. Please be seated.
liltONY OF JAMES S. LIEBMAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF
LAW, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW
btor DENTON. You are assistant professor of law at Columbia
rsity School of Law?
LIEBMAN. Associate professor.
tor DENTON. Associate professor. And I understand you have
ment you wish to make?
~:'LIEBMAN. Yes, sir.
ator DENTON. Please proceed.
LIEBMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would just like
ank you for getting me on early. I have 120 students who are
, g to hear about the hearsay rule for the first time today and
ot want to disappoint them. They will all be appreciative, too,
ure.
'name is James Liebman, and prior to coming to the law
I in January of this year I was a staff attorney for the '
CP Legal Defense Fund for 6 years. In that role, r was counsel
e of the three defendants in the Perry County case that has
e subject of some discussion this morning, and that is Speno
gue, Jr.
's prepared a written statement and that statement address-
arily the selective prosecution issue which has been the sub·
so of some discussion here and, without going into that or
. it here, I would simply ask, Mr. Chairman, that a copy
statement which has previously been submitted to the com·
pe made a part of the record.
torDENTON. Without objection, it shall be.
LIEBMAN. I would also ask, if I could, that a copy of the
ent of my former associate at the Legal Defense Fund, Lani
", with an accompanying affidavit, be made part of the
She could not be here today.
or DENTON. Without objection, that will be entered in the
'IEBMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
,tement of Ms. Guinier follows:]
182
TESTIMON'Y OF
LAN! GUINIER, E~QUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND, INC.
My name Is Lan! auinter. I am Assistant Counsel~ NAACP

Legal Defense and Eduoational Fund (LOF). LOF Is ;one of the-
organizations Within the Leadership Conference on
I litigate almost exclusively in the voting rights area.
substantial responsibility for litigating two of the most
cant statewide reapportionment oases interpreting Section 2
Voting Rights Act, as amended in 1982: Major v. ~. 574
325 (E.D. La. 1983) (three judge court) (the "Donald
gresslonal gerrymander) and Gingles v, Edmisten, 590 F. Supp,
(E.D. N.C. 1984). probable jUl"1sdlctlon noted, April 29, 1985.
I was involved with the Leadership Conference In the
effort to extend and amend the Voting Rights Act in 1982.
legislation reaffirmed the commitment of Congress to full and
meanins.rul political participation by all Amer~cans.
author, with Drew S. Days, III, of a chapter on

Section 5 of the Voting Rishts Act in the book, MinoritY,Vote
Dilution (Howard University Press, 1984). From 1977.1981, -r.~
was Speoial Assistant to Mr. Days when he

General for Civil Rights, United States Department of Justice.
submit this testimony on be'half of the LeaderShip Ccnferenoe
Civil Rights and the Legal Defense Fund in opposition to the
nomination of Jefferson B. Sessions, III, to the United
District Court in the Southern Distriot of Alabama.
I was one of the defense oounsel representing Spencer
Jr., in the federal proseoution, United States v.Albert Turne~;"
Spenoer Hogue, Jr. end Evelyn Turner, Cr. No.
The defendants, three voting rights activists from
Alabama, were prosecuted on charges of oonspiracy, mail fraud.
and, voting more than onoe by Mr. Sessions as' the United Stat'e's"
Attorney with two assistants. The 29 count indiotment was
in large part, on the theory of the 'U.S. Attorney Sessions
was illegal for the defendants, in assisting elderly and ilaterat,
183
o vo~e by absentee ballot, physioally to mark or to change,

voter's permission and at their request, the "xts" next to
'S,¢f oandidates listed on the absentee ballot. After a
a jurr of seven blacks end five whites aoquitted
"dants of elloharges, haVing deliberated for less than
e defendants were active in the Perry county Civie League,

they formed in 1962 to get blacks the right to
there were less than 200 blacks in Perry County
. Mayor Andrew Yeung testlr~ed as a defense
that one of the defendants led the mule train at Dr. Martin
King's funeral~ and was chiefly responsible for the idea of
ch from Selma to Montgomery in 1965 that led to passage of
5~Voting Rights Aot. Dr. King,who marched with the defen-
others from Perry county in 1965, wrote at the time how
he was with the people of Perry County and with their
press for the right to vote. Dr. King was par-
by the fact that on one day alone almost one
~adu1t black population of the City of Marion within Perry
was arrested while engaged in a nonviolent protest of the
their franchise.l l As Or. King predicted in 1965, the
Perry County, under the banner of the Perry County
continued even after passage of the 1965 Voting
organize blacks in the county to register, vote
elected offioe.
the defendants, Albert Turner and Spencer ~ogue,
ere officers of the Civic League. In that oonnection, and

With other community leaders, they played an
role in the lives or many blacks in the county, Perry
a rural, poor county and many or its residents are
rate or barely literate. In the early 60's the defendants
teach these residents to sign their names in order to
pass the literacy test then in effect. Even today,
and Mr. Hogue minister daily to the needs of elderly
residents; They deliver food, bring medicine, and
1 Civil Right," The N. Y. Times,
184
carry peepl e to thehospi tal.- Th'eyare ,trusted. and ,depended

upon.
Particularly with regard to the eXercise of the franchls.e,,'C"

they are instrumental in insuring that all ellg1bl,_ voters who;
Wish to vote can. As Steve Suitts, f9rmer executive dlrector'Of
the Southern Regional Council, attests in his affidavit 8ccompan
my testimony, "both history and current circumstances make it
necessary for private blaok citizens to assist the black elderlYI;
in voting ••.. [V)oting assistance ... at the ballot box and
with absentee ballots is key in such place:l." Not just the
elderly, but those who are illiterate, who work out of town and'
who cannot get to the polls on election day (which 1s not surpria
since there is no public transportation and the polling plaoes
are not in walking distance) need assistance in voting
must vote by absentee ballot in order to vote at all.
Many of these people solicit the assistance of community
like Mr. Turner and Mr. Hogue. When called as witnesses by
U.S. Attorney,. these voters proclaimed loudly that they trusted
Mr. Hogue and Mr. Turner, that they asked them to help them
and that they couldn't have voted without this assistance.
Mr. and Mrs. Turner and Mr. Hogue all cooperated with
Mr. Sessions' investigation, voluntarily testifying before
grand jury. In their grand jury testimony, which the U.S.
introduced at trial, Mr. Turner and Mr. Hogue admittedmarking:"€'
ballots but said they did so only with the voter's
in their presence. The testimony at trial and the Government's
evidence confirmed the defendants' explanation that
were only marked with permission. The voters, 'many
uneducated, even illiterate, had tried to guess the candidat~s
supported by defendants. They trusted the defendants, considere

them knowledgeable, and relied on their politIcal judgment.
the defendants arrived to pick up th~.ballot. the voter
to check the ballot to see if it was "right" or to fill
ballot the way "they" (Meaning the Perry County Civic League)
voting. If the voter had guessed wrong, the defendant
ballot only after checking whether the voter wanted to
their slate.
185
Baaed on the way this oase was investigated and prosecuted

~, S8ssions and two assistants, serious question arlae about
udiclal temperament, fitness and oompetenoe'of Jeff Sessions.
e~o8e scrutiny in relation to the following
in ~he case:
Whe£her Mr. Sessions bothered to determine what the
law was prior to, -during or even after the case was
presented to the jury. Mr, Sessions persisted in the
vie~ that fillIng out a ballot for someone else is
illegal despite § 208 of the voting Rights Act whioh
makes assistance in voting a right, and despite the
ruling of both the magistrate and the judge that the
United States Constitution and the voting Rights Aot
protect voting assistanoe.
Mr. Sessions failed to investigate similar charges
against whites. Voter assistance in filling out
absentee ballots is widespread in Perry County and
throughout the black belt. The actions Mr. Sessions
claimed were illegal when committed by defendants
were in fact both legal and pervasive. Yet it was
only when civil rights activists assisted voters
that their actiVity was cri~inalized. The targeting
of the investigation only against black civil rights
workers showed insensitivity to the role they were
playing and has had a Chilling effect on other blaoks'
t:w111fngness to vote again. This' was not a case of
vote buying or Official malfeasanoe. Thls was simply
riot a oase in Which the federal gcvernment had any
legitimate criminal supervisory responsibility.
~c1heFBI was not properly sup;r~~ae~ in its 1nvestiga-
tion of the case. Witnesses were intimidated, con-
ru~ed and disoriented by the manner and frequency
Of questioning. Witnesses were not asked what
happened; they were told What happened. The first
statemerit made to voters by FBI "agents paying
'un'announced visits wast ItI am the FBI. I hav,e your
ballot. Your ballot has been tampered with." Some
186
of the witnesses were interviewed by phone about

b~119ts they'could not see. Others were questioned
about ballots they were shown but could not read.
Still others were asked about an election they cou14
not remember. Yet, without properly re-interviewing
these witnesses, Hr ..Susions nevertheless ;presented
them a~ part of the government's case, only to be
"surprised" by the unreliability of their test.imony.
II. There are standards governing the federal interest -in
prosecuting e1eotion offenses, There was norederal
interest in this casewh1c~'on1y involved oandidates
running in local races. There were no oomplaining
witnesses other than defendants' political opponents
Who were the candidates in the local races. Moreover,
as to the government witnesses who did testify ~he
. judge admonished Mr. Sessions to stop putting on wit-

nesses simply to impeach them with statements they
allegedly gave the FBI. The awful legaoy of this
ill-c,onceived prosecution is its frightening effeot
primarily on elderly black voters, m~ny of whom
left the witness stand say inS, "This is just too
much. won't ever vote again."
It is not that Mr. Sessions lost this cas~ that is the
issue'. The issue is that he never had a .case 1n
from the indictment to the verdiot.
The~e prosecutions represent an
tivelY to use the re~ources of the federal government to
blacks from voting. The federal offioial who prosecutes
civil rights workers for attempting to assist elderly and
illiterate blacks to vote by absentee
not rewarded with life tenure.
I have here the testimony of James Liebman, one of the
trial attorneys who is now a law professor at
sity. Mr. Liebman has written a comprehensive statemen~,~rt
Seuions' conduot of these prosecutions which I urge th,e.,

CommIttee to consider. I also.request that the Lieb/tlan
187
made a part of the record of this hearing. For the

a'et forth in my statement and that Of Professor Liebman's
as the affidavits of Daval Patrick and Morton Stevis, I
nomination.
188
County of Fulton
State otceorg!.
Affidavit 2! Steve ~
X, Steve Suitts, beinq duly aworn, do hereby depose

stater
1. My name 18 Steve Suitt. and I am the executive cU.rect-
of the Southern Regional Council of Atlanta,
2. For more than fifteen years I have
research', "'n&1ysis, and studi •• concerning voting' rights in"
South. During the early 1970'. I was staff member And dine"
of the Selma Inter-Religious Project which provided
leqal and technical assistance to community leaders
Alabama and loutheast Mi.si.sippi. For five years in the 19'~
I served .a executive director of the Civil Libertie. Union'

Alabama and was responsible for the general aupervision,'t
.....,
report. and litigation which often foculed on voting

Since 1977 l' have .erved a. the ..executive_ director
Southern Regional Council, a non"proflt,
organization which hal carried out research, .nalysi.,
technical assistance on a range of important
including voting rights, for 41 years.
3. During my tenure with the,e th~ee organizations, I
been involv.d consi.tently In the .tudy of barriers
participation by black 9itizens and of effective means
racial discrimination can be removed from voting in
b.va provided g.neral .• up~ryi.i~n for projects
primary r •••• rch on voting trends and b.rriers to full pol
participation. l' have published more than twenty monograph.
erticle. analyzing voting trends, barriers to
participation and remedies for racial discrimination in
l' have provided expert testilnony or analysis for more than ,-
administrative and court proceedingl. AlIO, l'
requested to testify en .ever.l occalionl a. an expert ony
rights by the Committe•• on the J\:Idiciary of the U.S. Se'~.'
th,e U.S. Hou.e of Repre.ent.tive ••
189
;,~'.caUIe' of .~my work and research, I have b8~om. _v~ry
'illar with barriers to political r;)articipation in the rural

"S 'of the South and especially the areas known as -the Black
Il m also familiar- generally with developments, trends,
[~6n~ition8 in Perry County, Alabama.
'5'. Both history -and current cirCllmstanCes in the Black
of Alabama and perry County make it necessary fpr private
~k citizens to assist the black elderly lnvotirlg. In order
~a$sur~ that political participation is not limited by race or
'.,,'veting assistance for eitizens-1:ly private citizenS at the
lot box .ndwi~h' .'biifentee ballots" is key in such places. In
'·,Black Belt and Perry County, the level of education for the
and especially the elderly, is very low. By
"U80census, only forty-three percent -at the total population
age of twenty-five in Perry County had II high school
although fifty-seven percent at all Alabamians of that
~h'ad hll]hschool d-i'plomas. For the elderly and black, the
, ofedl.1¢ation is mueh lower. For example, the number of
'n"~wenty-five yeats or older 'with four years of high achool
:at:i'on in 19SD in Perry County -- those who woule! be fifty-
~~ears or older today --was only 110 of 5,780 blacks.
The 'need for vat in; assistance by private black
to the black .lderly is also supported by the history of
h"ex'cli.uion, tension, and violence in Perry County. The
e}'of a black citizen to register to vote in Perry County wa.s
~~bs.rvedgenerAllY before 1965. Records of the Southern
'oneal Council 8uggest that fewer than 100 black voters were
ite-r~d'in Perry 'County at that time when more than 6,000 were
'!:.l:bte ·to regh:ter. Blacks who 'protested this denial of the
"'to vote in 1965 were met ..... ith hostility, .J.rrest, and
In -February 1965, Jimmie Lee Jackson, a black activist
increase voting rights of blacks in Perry CountYJ was
Aftervard:s, .....h.n racial violence' diminished, White
'h"iroe in the 'coUnty con~Unued. In this lfIajority black
county, government services an4 in.titutions, such as
01., were not desegre9ated for several years afterward.. The
190
effecta of this history are real .~d direct upon many .lder
black.. For example, a black woman at the age of 67 today
Perry County hal spent almost three-fourths of
.egr.9.ticn where blacka could not Yote, could not
school., could not u•• public toilet., and had to
peraon vouch for her in order to obtain loan. or gov.ink
servicea. Under the circumstances it 11 bport:ant that th.,}bl
elderly in places such &8 Perry County have private citizens
they trust to assist in exereiling the right to vote.
7. LimHed by • ~ist.orr of ~achl exclusion and viol
,
and the low levels of education, often the resulto! qoYer
enforced ••qregated education, the elderly black populatio
Perry COunty constitute. a substantial number. In 1980,
percent of the total population Yes sixty-five year.
although throughout Alabama only eleven
population yas that old.
a. The need for private asSistance in voting
limited to'day in Perry COunty to only the black elder:Jy.':
emplo.yment patterns, thirty-one percent of the working pop,~'~::
of P!r~y' !=~unty comm,uted ,to work outside the co?nty
t
i:~,J
,,'i
" I, ,...
Since people work outside the county of their residenc~, ~p~.
balloting is an important muns by which the right to vote"~i"

exercl.ed in Perry county. These workers, a. well :"~~
elderly, may often require assistance because of their,.. ~e~
A/fl
low level of education. Also in light of the history of.;.r

tension in the county, these blacks may turn to
citizens for assistance in voting.
9. The right to vote in Perry County end other
the South's Black Belt remains impeded by practical b~~.
The number of day., the location, and the times at
citizen can register to vote in Perry County are limited
incomparilon to more urban and ,uburban location••
citie.n. rely upon ~ther private citizens to a .. lIt';'~L
registering to vote in place. like Perry county.
levels of education, high rate of elderly population, and~~
191 1
,
eommuting. workers, many citizens in Perry County

'~ls'siltance\olith'voting_ With a history of racialtenslon
exclusion, black vOtetl often turn to other private black
eris l,or assistance in vo'ting at the 'ballot box and with
ntee'ballots. Black citizens Who assist black voters in this
an important public serviee and perform a useful
10. Over the last several years, elderly black voters in

81a.okBel-t have come to depend over time upon black citizens,
en civil rights advocates, to perform this aSSlstance. From
'6wn research, studY, and personal observation 1 have found
_~ the relationship -between the civil rights advocates and
is based upon trust, oral communications, and
The advocate must often interpret the oral
the voter in light of their past relationship And
For instAnce. I once observed an elderly black
!lack !elt SAY. "I want it done like last time," in
she wished to vote. Yet. few people were on the
lot this time who were on the ballot at the last election.
·use X was present, the black civn rights advocate asked the
question he later told me ~e already had answered for
·You want to vote for the blacks running?" The elderly
!Sri replied rather heatedly. " • , • you know that's it, Oon't
an old woman like me," This exchange merely
fact that in the Black Belt effective voter
~'tarice by civil rights advocates often requires them to make
ood faith interpretlltion of orel instructions. which may not
meaninq to.others who do not know the assumptions
over time in their relationship. If civil ri9ht~
192
advocate. were to de.l ~if~.t~nt1y. with many eld.r1ya~d~
educated votera, it ia my opinion that they would diacou~~~
of these people from exercia1ng their right to vote.

The foregoing 18 true and accurate to the be~~;
~~::::'~'::'::iff~ of April 1985,
<"!:
\.:J8v\71tta
Sworn and lubscribed betore JUt on this

. ,"" . - ---
,1';.1;(. day of Apri~,l
"'--
(Notary pubilc)
H,*ry ~ic, GtoI;I., StI" It 1.1,..
....... ""
193
W
>i!'UEBMAN. What I wanted to talk about briefly here is a
that I refer to only at the very end of my written state-
'rid that goes to sOme matters that go beyond the selective
tion issue but are related to it. That involves a number of
rits that Mr. Sessions made during his testimony here as
Yin the Federal district court in Mobile that I would like to
"because I believe that the facts are different than those
. Sessions put forth in' those contexts. I will list a number
.If I do not have time to reach all of them, I will request
submit a supplemental written statement on any Icannot
'Mr. Sessions represented to the court in Mobil~ and I be-
this committee as well that before indicting the three de-
s in the Perry County case he reached two conclusions.
he says that he concluded that every absentee ballot which
allegedly unconsented change on it reflected a change from
,Hate that was opposed by the three defendants to a candi-
at the three defendants supported.
'tid, he said he reached the conclusion that everyone of those
, with unconsented alterations on them was mailed or, han-
one of the three defendallts.
,facts on that, Mr. Chairman, are otherwise. I would like to
's an example-there are others listed in my statement-a
of a voter who I will only identify by initials N.S. because I
t want to breach the secrecy of that ballot. FBI Agent Gary
testified to the grand jury in Mobile-and either Mr. Sessiolls
e of his assistants was there at the time-that the absentee
" of N.S. was "tampered with," that is, that someone had aI-
he, vote on that and had done so without the permission of
ter who had so informed Agent Clem.
, if we look at that ballot, we call ask the question, "how was
1M altered?" It was altered from a candidate that the three
nts supported to a candidate that the three defendantsop-
\ the secolldconclusion that Mr. Sessions .testified to con-
, who mailed that ballot. Did the defendants touch that al-
apparently fraudulently altered ballot? Well, if you iook at
lot, it is notarized by and itwas mailed not by these three
ants, but by one Andrew Hayden who is the mayor of Union-
AL" and enjoys the support of the white voter groups in the
nd as you will see in my statement, there are scores of bal-
at Mayor Hayden either notarized, mailed, signed, or other-
andled which have very suspicious markings on them such
'ose on this ballot of NoS. ,
d unlike the candidates that the three defendants supported,
'ndidates that Mayor Hayden supported won this election per-
!'because of ,those ballots that Mayor Hayden touched with
'very suspicious markings on them. Yet, Mr. Sessions never
igated and, of course, never indicted Mayor Hayden. So those
nclusions that Mr. Sessions reached I think are inaccurate to
,"tent that there were changes from candidates supported by
'ree defendants to candidates opposed by them that were not
nted to that were fraudulent, and those ballots were handled
194
by people other than the three defendants who were not indi
investigated further than FBI Agent Clem testified about.
Second, in explaining to the committee why he brought t
dictment, I fear that Mr. Sessions may have given the impr.
that every ballot relied upon in the indictment both had an·
ation on it and that that alterati,on was unconsented to. Agai
such impression would be inaccurate. A significant number"
lots that were relied upon at trial had no alteration whatso
them. For example, Robert White's. In fact, there was no c
anybody that there was an alteration on that ballot. ",
Moreover, the Government took to the jury a large number.
ditional ballots-and I will give two examples, Reaner Gree
Murphy Reed-on which there was unequivocal, uncontra
testimony that any change made on those ballots was cons
to-was asked for or made by-the voter. .~
Well, the question came up at trial, what exactly wasMf
sions' legal theory that he was proceeding with that wou1<i,.
him to go forward with ballots that did not have unconsent~<i
ations? And he explained that theory through his assistant a
What happened was that I sought to clarify what the G
ment's theory was in the transcript at pages 17 to 18, and t,
"What about a situation where a wife says to her h1.lsblj,l1.
husband to his wife, 'I don't know how to vote in this case, '
me how to vote and I will vote that way'." And I said "t
Attorney's office has indicated," as it had on the phone, "th
type of situation would fall within their idea of illegality un'
indictment.""'-',
Mr. Sessions' assistant then stood up and answered tothEi
to my question, "is that within their theory of voter frliu'
saying yes, "that is one of our theories." In other words, wh'
example, illiterate absentee voter Reaner Green told M~. H
and this is a quote from her testimony-"I want to vote .
y'all are voting," and then he filled out her ballot that wayol"
she was illiterate, Mr. Sessions expressly considered that to'
illegality and proceeded against the defendants on that theor
I think I need not remind the committee that that very't
voter assistance of illiterate voters is not illegal. In fact; that
ty was protected both by the 1982 amendments to the .
Rights Act and in fact has been held for about 20 years to:
stitutionally protected a c t i v i t y . , " :
Third, Mr. Sessions testified here that he brought thes,,-c
in part because the number of absentee ballots voted inth
tember 1984 primary election was "extraordinarily high.":oI
as the Perry County absentee voter clerk testified at, t .
number of absentee ballots voted in that September 1984
was actually lower than in any other general election
county for the past five elections. It was lower by a factor 0
al hundred than the next previous primary election. So .
not an extraordinarily high number of ballots. In fact, ther
low number Qf ballots. ,•• i
. Fourth, Mr. Sessions testified that he brQught theSe chlif
in part because he wanted to take the prosecution or t4e,'
of the hands of a potentially biased and nOn<lojective local
take it over for himself.
195. I
11, the fact is, Mr. Chairman, that District Attorm!y Roy John-
peatedly publicly stated-and Mr Sessions' assist,\nt essen-
admitted at the selective prosecution l1earing in court-that
vestigation and this case .was conducted $oS a "joint effort"
n District Attorney Johnson and Mr. Sessions' office.
xample, every witness who was interviewed by the FBI was
multaneouly interviewed by someone ftom the local DA's
,Employees in the local DA's office were the people who rode
, bus with all of the witnesses from Selma to Mobile, to the
,jUlW, and in fact the local DA's office hired the bus.
~n I went to interview witnesses, an agent of the local DA's
in the DA's official car followed me around and reported, as I
'ter informed by the FBI, on my actions to the FBI while I
,nducting my investigation as an attorney in the case. And,
, there were DA officials in the interview room at the court-
all the time during trial helping the Government to prepare
es.
he fact is that Mr. Sessions' involvement in the case did not
,~ the potentially biasing and nonobjective influence of the
t attorney but, rather, just added to the district attorney's re-
"s by adding the FBI, the grand jury and--
'tor DENTON. Excuse me, Mr. Liebman. How much longer is
atement? I know your students are important, but these
ntlemen have things to do and we have many other wit·
who have traveled half the country to testify for 5. minutes
It are sort of retrying the Perry County thing and We are
.to have witnesses refute what you are saying and counter·
our own testimony, so we would appreciate it if you would
!;llm up quickly, please.
LIEBMAN. OK. Senator Denton, I will just stop right there
lle conclusion simply that there are a number of statements
, r. Sessions made in explaining why he brought this prosecu-
hieh I simply wanted to straighten out for the record, and
'are a couple others which I will submit in wrQiing.
k you very much.
'prepared statement of Mr. Liebman follows:]
196
'rBS'l'l'HONY or
JAMBS 8. LIBBMAN
Assistant ProfesBor of Law
Columbia oniversity School of Law
My name ia James S. Liebman. Since January 1986 I

Assistant Professor of Law, Columbia Onlveraity School o¥'
From November 1979 to December 1985 % was :Asaistant
NAACP Legal Defense and Bducational Fund, Inc. (LOr).
capacity I was one of the attorneya who repre.ented
Sogue, Jr. Prior to Illy tenure at Lor, I was law clerk
Bonorable John Paul Stevens, Associate Justice, United
Supreme Court.
In January 1985, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III;
States 'Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama, bro~g
voter-fraud indictment against three black civil rights Ii_

in Perry County, Alabama -- Spencer Bogue, Jr., Evelyn Tur~e
Albert Turner. AS set out in the first two counts 'of

indictment itself, the sctions which Hr. Sessions charact~
aa "fraUd" qre", out of ths three accused citizens' lon~i'8~a:·

efforts to enfranchise blacks in perry County, inclUding. th~
,the un of absentee ballots by the county' 8 large populAt1'
elderly, bed-ridden, and otten n,early illiterate black clt"fll
As you know, Hr. Chairman, att:er the court itsel'
diSmissed many of the counts in the indictment, a jury:,ot;,
and white Alabama citizens acqultted the three detendants)~
remaining charges. Nonetheless, the indictment of these"t
people was a serious and disruptive matter not
wrongly accused citizens, but also to the entire perty,C
Community, and particularly the black members of that comm, "
amoni whom the names Turner and Bogue were synonomoU8 wi
recent advent of their right -- an13 ability -- to vote.
Hr. Sessions' prosecution of ~heo;"1'urner8 and Mr.
more than simply ill-founded and disruptive.
in the annals of federal voter-fraud prosecutionsl
cepartment dOCUments revesl that Mr. Sesslon'. prosecutlo~;~,
Turner'. and Bogue marked the tirst ~im.. a United States pro'
197
. o'rhad ever- applied a f~eralvoter"',fraud statul:.e to an aU&ged

b~entee-ballot conspiracy'that' did not involve corrupt public
ic'ials, virtually the first time a federal prosecutor had done
sit.uation in which the allegedly affected electoral
all involved strictly 100'41 offices, the first tilQe a
eral prosecutor had dorie so when so few allegedly illegal
than 30) were cast, and the first time the candidates
benef'itting from the fraud alleged by the GoVernment
'd lost the election. [These facts are based on the Justice
Prosecul:. 10n Manual, Exhibit 0 to the
Proaecu'tdon Motion, lind the Justice Department press
Exhibit R.] Indeed, for these reasons, Mr. Session's
~:tosecution appears to violate the Justice Department 1 a own
~~idelin&s
.. for
1 when federal prosecutors may bring this type of
"cHctment, and the manner in Which Mr. Session's office
nducted the investi9a~ion leading to the indictment clearly
2
lated the Department's guidelines in a number of respects.
~hy, then, did Mr. Su:sions pursue this ill-t'ounded,
~eeedented, and requlation-violating indietment? After
vestigatinq that perplexing question, defense counsel for the
rne-rs and Bogue were eompelled to file a 7S-page MOtiOn to
'miss the Indictment as the prOduct of An Invidiously Selective
secutfon, supported by sever,]l hundred pages of exhibits.
pTes of the entire _file of documents relating to -the Selective
9(secution Modon have been provided to the Committee, including
affidavits of Perry County citizens. The Motion
supporting documents detail two thingsl first, the innocent
-indeed, constitutionally proteeted voter assistance
behalf of elderly black citizens which were the
Sessions' investigationJ .!!!.!!, ncond and more
,..-.-.---
The various ways in which Turner/Hogue indictment violates
ustiee Department Guidelines are described in the original
election prosecution Motion at pp. 26-29, discussing the very
l,ClW priority given fraud _such as that allegedi_n the Turner/Hoque
indictmpn~ hy the Departmant'! F~J~cal ~roseeution of election
pffenses Manual (Exhibit Q).J
'hb,~ various ways in which the 'I'urner/Bogue 1nvesti9ation
"folated Justice Department guidelines, ht forth in its prosecu-
.t;i.~o ,Manual (Exhib~tO) are_set out in the original Selection
,Prosecution Motion at pp. 19-21.)
198
;mportant here, a series of well-documented

absentee voting procedures committed bY' and on
white and white~8upported Perry County candidates, which --.W
known to Mr. Sessions .... were D.!!!! investigated by him,

course, did they result in any indictments.
Selective Prosecution chiu'ges &re, of course,
lightly. Particularly in cases inVOlving prosecutions
States Attorneys, such chat'S' •• are rare, both becaus"qf,,('
integrity typically maintained by O.S. Attorneys and
the high legal hurdles which must be cleared before the
will even COnsider such charges. 'rhus, in orc!er t9 !II
jutHc1al consideration of selective-prosecution ehar,9'~,
defendant must produce credible

prosecutor ~ selective -- that
dants but: not others similarly situated -- but also tb~t.c{"
prosecutor wu motivated by some intentionally invid~~y,
discriminatory purpose in sing11ng out

prosecution. Few defendants, as I said, even make such
against federal prOsecutors, and fewer still have such
taken seriously 'by the courts.
In this respect, as well,
tion of the Turners and Hogue verges on the unique.
9ons1der1ng the selective-prosecution papers filed
defendants in this case, and conducting a day long
matter, the United States Magistrate for the Southern
Alabama concluded that defendant.s had satisfied t.he
of their burden to get a heAring on selective
producing credible evidence in this record that,
Turner/Hogue indiotment, "the Government [_ ... Mr. Sessiops',9:
__ ] 'was activated by constitutionally impermiSsible motive~iJ
as racial ••• discritrdnation." Second, the Magist.rate fou?_(l,'~t'
"[t)here is credible e'lidence adduC'ed by the Defendant",-th.

numbor of abeen'tee ballots cast in perry County in Sep~"
UU, C'ontdned irregUlarities related to C'andidates-itt.a')
witnessing, attestation, and mailing'; .,. that the prepar'at.1:~,
some of these ballots likely was oonneC'ted with voter •••~~f~
199
carried out by groups in Perry County which are 1edby

i~es, and ••• that these ballot irregularities have not been
~estig'ated, nor the indiv1.duals apparently connected with. the
prosecuted." {May 24, 1985, Recommendation, at 3, see
at 6, 8.]
Although the Magistrate, and the United States District
the Magistrate reported, did not talee the drastic
of dismissing the indictment, both jUdicial officers ~
the extraordinary precaution of admoniShing Mr. Sessions to

charges snd proof at trial confined within the bounds of
and particularly the constitution: and when he failed to
'so; the District Judge dismissed more than half of the counts
the indictment in the middle of trial as lackin9 in any
identiary suppOrt. Subsequently, of course, the jury acquitted
e three ~efen~ants of all remaining charges.
I, of course, ~o not have the time here to describe all the
fraud on behalf of whfte, 'and white supported,
Mr. Sessions failed to investigate, while
ill-conceived indictment of Albert and Evelyn Turner
Spencer Bogue. A few examples will have to speak for the
'tothers detailed i~ the Motion and supporting papers1
First, although Mr. Sessions repeatedly repre.ented to the
~drt and to the pUblic that his office investigated the circum-
'lltd:e:s of each and every absentee ballot voted in the September
a~election which r,flected a change from one candidate to
6ther, and 'that he did not, as charged, confine his investiga-
8li 'to absentee-ballot changes from white or white-supported
to black candidates,' the facts, pure and simply, are
s' , for example, an elderly black resident of

Alabama distinctly remembers voting for Setzer Howard,
Political ally of the Turners 'and Bog~e, for the poeitionof
Unty Commissioner. In all other respects, Ms. S voted for
• slate of'ficially suppOrted by the county's white voter
Ms. S then turned over her ballot to Uniontown Mayor
for mailing. Mr. Bayden has long been politically
200
oppoaed to the rurnet" and Bogue and supported by the white vo~
groups in the area. When H8. S' I. ball 0 t wu opene!!;

eleotion day, the "Xli tor Setzer Howard had been "whited out'"
Ma. S' has never. had "white out" or "liquid paper"!n ~"
rUt'al home where she spends most of her time because of

health ..... and a new ·x ll , i n a different color ink, had
placed b.. ide Reese BU11ngslea's name. Billingslea, I should J
was t.h~ candidate the white groups successfully' supported 4gat
.Setzer Howard.
When que.tiened by a defense investigator, Ms.
adamantly insisted that. she voted for Boward and never
anyone to change that. vote to Billingslea. Ms. s:
indicated that ahe previously informed the rBI of these
but that Mr. Sessions did not follow up on the On-its-face
suspicious, and (as it turns out) lraudulent-in-lact change
ber ballot. Nor di~ Mr. Sessions require Ms. S
before the grand jur~ about this change from a ~-support~~,;;
a .!2.ll.!-supported candidate. [see Exhibita TT, WW.J
Similarly, the ballot of S: M ., a white
county citizen, reveals a vote for Setzer BOward Which,
and replaced with a new, different-colored "x"
Billingslea -- once again conforming the ballot to the
•
slate of white and white-supported candidates officially
by the white voter groups in the area. When asked about
by a defense investigator, Hs. H' like Ms. S
voted for Boward, not Billingslea, and that she had
nor consented to any changes in the ballot. Hore
here, MS. 1'1' I obviOUSly altered ballot
investigated by Hr. Bession's office.
Third, although the absentee ballots
senior citizens center in Uniontown, Alabama were voteq
signed in the same color ~e1t-tip pen with what appears Q~;
taoe -- en. expert hen.writl~ enaly.1s oonfirme. -- w.. the,." .•. ,:~,
handwriting, that of Andrew ~Yden, who alaowitnessed sac
tho.e ballot., and although al-1 those ballots were identi,9'"
voted for the sue White-supported slate and simultal':!e,q'~'
65
ji'~'\Wi\l;ttqrn~Ys in the .Civil Rights Divisio~ are tr~i:,,;d to be sensi·
11'\le andto 'have a hIgh threshold for racIal senSItIvity, and I can·
", ,': yse1f to have a !)igh threshold. "
ator PENTON. I am sertainly aware of that.
~0'1 think 1'4r. Sessions is a racist?
; t.r~lI!!;I\T. N:o; I do not.
:~torDENTON. Do you think Mr: Sessions will judge cases
r:" HEBERT. Senator, I have wrestled with that question iliore

}h~ last 24 hours perhaps than you have, with all due respect,
r'6aiJ.' honestly say that I think you very much on this commit·
sit as judges, weighing t,he evidence and trying to decide wheth·
preponderance of it points in one direction or the qther.
~ye. ,done that in my own mind, but I have a very limited
ilt of information to deal with and you have a wider variety
;1 do. I do not know whether he would be prejudiced when he
'tiii. the bench or whether he would be impartial.
, might add that that is total speculation on my part and I
not say whether I would know that about any nominee unless I
the opportunity to sit and listen to each and every word
en. I would not base my decision or my vote on one person's
':,ony, as I would in a case, either.
ator DENTON. All right. Are you aware that I sent five
:S-this is public information, but it should be repeated here-
'rd to the Justice Department besides Mr. Sessions, including
chael Druhan, Jr., who later withdrew; Gordon B. Kahn, a
ankruptcy judge with primarily Democratic connections, and
e is K·a·h·n; Mr. Patrick Sims, primarily Democratic can·
s, and he was a U.S. magistrate for the southern district of
,a; along with Jeff Sessions' name to the Justice Depart·
as selected by the Justice Department, and I just wanted to
'llt clear at this hearing.
Sessions says he will be fair as a judge, would you believe
B~I\T. I guess in the courtroom we would say this question
asked and answered. He is a man of his word and when
something, I believe him. And if he says that-and I think
, response to you, Senator Denton, that if he says he is
enforce the law, and that he may disagree with the law
"going to enforce it, I would believe him.
(DENTON. Thank you very much, sir. You are dismissed.
ccBIDEN. Well--
!!!TON. Go ahead, Senator Biden.
IOEN. I do not have any further questions except to say
," pressed. We have a lot of witnesses that come before
tee. I have been here going on 14 years.
t being solicitous when I said earlier that I appreciate
gy of your situation. Quite frankly, it is a little like if
colleagues for whom I have great affection were appoint·
noh and I had to vote.
"ilien who I believe are decent and honest and men of
'b)lt I believe their views and their prejudices run so
66
deep, there are some cases I just would not want them being any.'
part of.
That prejudice could be on whether they could fairly handle
rape case, fairly handle a civil rights case. And I suspect before m
tenure in the Senate is up, which is in 1990, I am probably going
have to make those judgments on colleagues of mine and I do 11
look forward to it. I hope I do it with the degree of honesty
grace that you have done it.
Thank yOu fortestifying. ..
Mr. HEBERT. Thank you, Senator Biden, and your comments ii>'
cate that you heard what I said.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Hebert.
You are excused.
Senator BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanim
consent that the transcript that we have been referring to so m
all afternoon be inserted in the record at the appropriate poin'
its entirety.
Senator DENTON. Without objection, it is so ordered.
[Document follows:]
67
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
UUn'BO S':AWS BEltATE
COlJHI'l"mB on ~ JtID:ClMY
SWorn ~st1tco.ny of J PAU1I F ~ UAliCOCIt

3. G&V'AtJ) JtBBBlQ
.l\L!mRlI' S. G:t.mm
IlANIllL r.. am.r.
tfaahlnvt.on;D.C.
lllU'Ch 12, 1986
-
MILLER REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
807 c 81'''', H.e.
...
WUhl"D1on. D.C. 20002
68
1 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
•
•
• IN REI NOMINATION OF
JftFF~llSo..N S'ESSIONS. TO BE
• UNITED STAT£S DISTRICT JUDGE
FOR THE SOUTHERN DrST~tCT OF
7 ALABAMA
• - - ~ - - - - - • - - I
• wednesdaY, March 12. 1986
" Room 80-246

Dirx.en Senate Office 8uildin9
.
1t WIshington, O. C•
The sworn testimony of Paul Y. Hancock, J. Ger.,ld Hebert,
" Albert s. Glenn, and Daniel L. Ball, was taken commencing at
"
II
2:47 p.m.
presentl
" REOINALD C. GOVAN

Minority Counsel/Investigator
" Co~mitt90 on the ~udlciary

Un1tQ~ States Senate
" FRANK ,KLONO.SKI
.
"
II
IeV,oBtigator
Committee on the Judiciary
United Stat.s Senate
KENNETH P. OERGQUIST
Deputy A.llstant Attorney ,General
Office of Legislative end Intergovernmental Affaira
united State. Department of JUltice
.
..
69
Telltimony of.
Paul F. Hancock
J. Gerald Hebert
"
I
'Albert S. Glann 51
Daniel L. Bell 65
II
,.
,
"
j
:1
'I
1
'J.J
.I
70
PRO C BED I N G S
• (2147 p.m,)
• ~lr. Govan. Hy nallle :1.5 Reginald Govan and I'm llinor:l.ty
• investigator for the JUdioiary Comlllit.tee.
• Hr. KlonOlki. If I can butt in, why don't w• •• tabl:l.sh
• that we're hold.ing th:l.e Illeet:l.ng on request of senator Biden,

7
who had requested two attorneys from the Oepll.rtmnnt of
• Justice? Mr. Govan had some ,!:uestions and that's why we're
• here.
to
Mr. Govan. My understanding df the groundrules for our
"
12
session today is, tirst, as rrank stated, Senator Siden
requeated the presence of two Justice Department att"r' (,ys,
." Mr. Paul Hancock And Mr. Jerry Hebert, at the confirl'l/ltion
heari",>,s scheduled for tomorrow, Thursday, at 2:00 ~.rr, •• or.

II
the nomination of Jefferson Sessions to the Or.it~rl ~tates
II
Oistr:l.ct Court.
17
It ir; my underlt.anding that this session is desl(HHl(l. to,
" to some Gxtent, answer our need tor information. At the same
.
"
..
time, w4 are not qiving up any rights to requast the presence
of the attorneys at the hearing ·under whatever procedures, if
it should be necessary, would be wo"rked out.
...
Zi Mr, Bergquist. Let me at this point make a remark that
if you do want theso attorneys present at the hearin9 tommorro
... thon I would suggest that you for a subpoena because it is
not our policy t.o provide line attorneys :l.n the hearing
unll!s8 there is sOllie extraordinllry rell8on.
Hr. GOvan. Mr. Hancock, you W8re
Mr. Bergquist. Before you start, let DIe ma,ke One othe'r
Point for the record. Since you're obviou8ly going to be
questioning two of these witnessee in regard to their cOmments
they made to an ABA investiglltor !Ill a part of the ABA
investigation at Mr. Jeft Sessions,

think it's aPPropriate ;
'~o ~ote
l"
that these remarks that were given to the investigator
'were 9'iven in Confidencej that by bringing them into an open

II,
. hearing and have them t,eatify on the remarks that they made to j
i1
an ABA investigator Would have, in the words Of Senator Biden, Ii
effect on other individuals who may b~ called uPon
the ABA to give confidential statement~.

So for th~ recOrd, I just want tllat Warning to be noted.
72
Whereupon,
, PAUL F. HANCOCK
, was called A8 a witness And, having pr8vioualy been duly
• ewern, teetified A. followSI
Mr. Govan. Hr. HAncock, how long have you been employed
• by the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department?

, Mr. Hancock. Since September of 1970.
Mr. Govan, And did you go to that job out of law school1
• Mr. Hancock. Yes.

to Mr. GOvan. l~hat are presently your responsibilities in
II tlie Justice Dep",rt.m8nt?
"
13
Mr. Hancock. I'm assigned to the Votin,. Section of the
Civil Rights DIvision. My position is assistant for

14
in the Voting Section. J have initial supervJ,sory
" responsibility ove~ the attorneys in the Voting Section that
" perform litigation work.
" Mr. Govan. In the course of your responsibilities with
" the Justiee Oepartment, have you had an opportunity to work
."
zr
with Mr~ Jefferson Sessions, who is presently United States
Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama?
Mr. Hanccek. Yes.
" Mr. Govan. In what capacity did you work wi tli him?
..
tJ Mr. HancocX. Waprosecuted a number of civil rights
lawsuits in the Southern District of Alabama and Mr. Sessions
is United State I Attorney, and we always deal through the

73
United States Attorney and the United States Attorney Is, to
SODle extent, involvad in 411 litiqation 1n his or her

district.
Mr. Govan. Have you worked with other United States

Attorneys aeroBs this COuntry?
Mr. Hancock. I've Worked with other United StatlHl

7
Attorneys in different parts of the COuntry. I ObViOUSly
• haven't worked with all of them, but __
Mr, Govan. Approximately how mllny U.s. Attorneys have
yoU worked With, rough 811timate?
Mr. Hancock. I've worked with the United States
Attorneys in every district where the United States has had
a Votinq rights laWSuits. OUr lawsuits are, to a larqe
ext.ent, in th!:" St<tte~ that are covered by the VOt-i,110 Ri.ghts
Act, which ar~ ths States that Comprise the old Confederacy.
But We',re not limited to that region. We 'VEt been involve
in litigation in New '{ark, Hawaii, AlaSka, Chicago,
California, Montana, Idaho, and different States Outside of

the old·South.
Mr. Govan. '{ou ana! had a oonversation last week about
your haVing talked with the repreSentative of the American Bar
ASSOCiation who was investigating Mr. Sellsions' nomination,

is that correct?
Mr. Hancock. That\s right.
Mr. GOVan. Ana during that s:.9..JJ,versatio n • I tola 'you that

74
was oal1in9 on behalf of Senator Bldln, isn't that right?

z
Mr. Hanoook. ~hat·aoorreot.
• Hr. Govan. And I asked you, had you, in fact, talked
• with a representative of the ABA, is that right?
• Mr. Hanoock. You did.
• Mr. Govan. And what WIlS your response to that question?

7
Mr. Hancock. told you that I had talked to II.
• representative of the ABAI that I was aSked questions about
• Hr. Sessions and hiB nomination and was told that the answers
10
would be kept in confidence and that this was part of the
" normal routine of investigating people who had been nominated

12
for the federal judiciary to call people whr" may have
" information about them,
" Mr. Govan. And I asked you were your canv~r~atiDns
"
.. the ABA con~erning professIonal exper~~nces that yOU had
Mr. Sessiona, ian't that ri-g'ht?

17
Mr. Hancock. I don't recall one way Or the
It
you "uked me that. You did ask me about whether talked to
It
t~e ABA about Mr. geesions' qualifications to be a federal
zo
judqe. I don't recall ~uch else about it.
ZI
Mr. Govan. 00 you recall.having told me that the
Z2
information that you had was a result of litigation that
.. had been involved in cn behalf of the Department of Justice, ..

II
. and therefore you were not .... illing to diseuse with me those
~atters that you discussed ....ith the American Bar Association]

\!
i!
75
•
Mr. Hancock. I told you that what I had said to the
ABA, I laid becaue. I lelt .s a lawyer and a member of the
ASA that I had a relponlibility to anlwer their questions I
that I was anewering them in confidence and that I thought it
was entering another realm by telling you what I had told the
ABA.
And I think that the circumstances were different, so I
didn't tell you what I ha4 told thG ABA •
• Mr. Bergquist. Let me at this point interject. His

'0 actione were entirely prOper. It is departmental policy that
" any contact made with a line attorney in the Department of
JUlltice must be mad~ through my office, and he did an entirely
proper thing bV retusinq to reveal any information.
So nothing ill th~ record should reflect that he acted
improperly Or refused to answer your questions.
Mr. Govan. I certainly aqree with that. just wanted
to establish for the record that ,Mr. Hancock and I did talk
last week and what the eUbst~nce of that conversation was.
Mr. Bergquist. Yes. Now, in ,J:'eqards to t'uture
questions that you have here, he may discuss cises that are
liti'1ation. He may not dlsc'uss current 11 ti9ation.
Mr. Govan. Well, we'll crosS that bridqe as we get to
if it's necessary.
Mr. Bergquist. 00 not talk about current litigation,
matters that are Under present litigation, but you may discuSs
76
,
any eases that have already gone through the litigation
3
process.
3
Mr. Govan. Mr. Hancock, would you list for us the cases
• in which you worked with Mr. Sessions and what interaction you
• had with him in each of those cases, to the best of your
• recollection?
, Mr. ·Hancock. Okay. I don't know that I can list all the
• eases. don't recall the date when Jeff first became U.S.
• Attorney. We've had a number of voting rights lawsuits in

10
the Southern Dietrict of Alabama) those cases are a matter of
" pUblic record.
"
13
I've worked _. I've had some contact with Mr. Sessions,
would assume, in each one of those cases. TO name a few
" of them - . ! don't know that it's a complete list, but we
" tried cases involving -_ we were a party to Bold~~ versul the
"
t7
Cit.y of Mobile.
We have litiqated cases styled United States versus
" Dallas County, Alabam~r United States versus Marin90 County,

'0
Alabama'; United States versus Conecuh County, Alabama --
..'" C-o-n-e-c-u-hr United States versus Hale County,
! can't recall others at the moment, but 1 know that is

Alabama~
"
23
not a complete list.
The rest of your question of what contact I had with Mr.
.
U
sessions
Mr. Govan. Yes, r1qht.

77
10
Mr. Hancock. I'm' not able to tell you eveJ:'y tillle
• talked to Mr. seslionl about each one of those oase8. The
norlllal procedure within the Department i , that .s we recommend

• lit1qlltion in a U.S. Attorney's district, that peraon is
• afforded an opportunity to provide input into the
, recommendation process.
generally talk to Il united States Attorney at the time

• we are recommending filing' of a lawsuit either before the
Assistant Attorney General gives his concurrence or upon

10
concurrence of the Assistant Attorney General to determine
" whether the United States Attorney has 4nything that he or
" she wants to consider in deciding whether to file the
" litigation, any objection to the lawsuit, Dr any ~oncurrenc.
to the law5ui t.
That would have been, in this situation, the primary
conversation that I would have had with Jeff Sessions, would
have been the time that we were c.onsidering 1i tigation. The
decision whether to initiate a lawsuit under the Voting Rights
Act in my field is made by the Assi~tant Attorney for the
Civil Ri,ghts Division.
It's not made by the United States Attorney, although, as
~ay, the United States Attorney provides input irto the
process. The litigation, once initiated, is handled by us
and our lawyers out of washington, not by the Un! ted States
Attorneys I 0 ff ices.
78
11
, To /I. significant extent, the United States Attorney Is'
not in~olved 1n the litigation onoe the lawBuit 1a filed.
In BOrne instances. depending on the di.trict arid whether the

• United S'tateB AttOrney wants involvement, i t varies, but 01,11:
• lawyers handle ,the litigation uneSsr the Votinq Rights Act.
• S~\ i~ I'm answering your question fully, once the law-

7
suits are filed, I don't have very much contact with the
• United States Attorney, particularly in thi,s situation. Our
• litigation is done without much participation by the United

10
States Attorney in the Southern District of Alabama.
" Mr. Govan. take it, then, that the American Bar
" Association reptesenative questioned you about one of these
" five eases?
" Mr. Hancock. Yes. As I recall -- and, again, at the
" time I talked to the representative of th~ ABA, I didn't
" consicler' it to be a very significant conversation and my

17
recollection is not -~ ! don't remember everything that I told
" the man, but I do recall being asked some -- he apparently
." had had some information about onB of the lawsuits and he
askecl me about onB of t~e lawsuits.
" Mr, Govan. Which lawsuit?
" Mr. Hancock. The Conecuh County lawsuit.
" Mr. Govan. And what information do you have on Conecuh
" County concerning Mr. Sessions?
" Mr. Hancock. The issue that seems to be on the floor WAS
79
12
, when we had requested an 1nv81tlgation in Conecuh County and
Conecuh County, we had -~ the form ofr_que.ting tho ••
inve.tigations i l • ~.morandum from the Civil Right. Divieion
to the Director of the FBI reque.ting the inveltiqation.
The i.sue involved wae that the .- we later found out
that the requeeted investigation had not been conducted, and
when we inquired why we learned that the United States
Attorney had told the Bureau not to conduct the inve.tigation.
Mr. Govan. If you recall, at what Itage wa. the
investigation when the request went to the FBI for
investigation?
Mr. Hancock. r'm not sure what you mean by "request."
the FBI to do a particular investigation.
Mr. Govan. Had a lawsuit actually been tiled against
Conecuh County?
Mr. Hancock. believe at that time -- I'm not sure
whether -- we've had I have been unable t.o piece allot
this back toqether, and I've checked my records and I don't
-"h'ave any records on it.
It could have been __ we had a lawsuit -- I'm trying to
'think whether we had two lawsuits -- we did have t.wo lawsuits
.gainst Conecuh County, as I recall now. one involves a
matter under Section 5 ot the Votin? Ri9hta Act, which

80
13
requires pre.clearance of voting changes, and the other

2
matt8.r involved a lawsuit that we filed concerning d18-
2
criminatory treatment that black voters receive when they
• come to the polls to vote in Conecuh County,
• I've had some difficulty resurrecting whether the
•
, investigation at issue was in the one lawsuit or the other.
At times I thought it was one and the other times I thought
• i t was the other,
• Mr. Govan. 00 you ree,!;ll the purpose of t.he
" investigation?
" Mr, Hancock. No. BeC&llS<!l I'm not able to piece it back
12
together, I can't. It was one of two pllrpO.H'S, to ttl", best
13
.. that I can recall. ("1 the ons hand, i t mllY have
gathering information abnut the treatment thdl hlack voter$

been
" receive when they come to vote in Conecuh County.

II
The other issue that i t may have concerned .... as at one
" point in the Section 5 lawsuit, the county presented in court

II
a la.tter that purported t.o grant Section 5 pre-clearance to
II
vQting 'changes, and the letter was an obvious forgery signed
20
by someone on Department stationery.
2t
It was signed with the name of someone who was listed as
ZZ
Assistant Attorney General for Civil ~ights, and the person
..
" had never been Assistant Attorney Genera1'.
never heard Ofi

It was a name we
it was a William Daley or something like that,
" or S9me Daley.

81
. .
But we knew --- 'Ie' teet.ck Inve8Ugato'rll .;. that it
va_nIt. true letter and ",e a.ked the FBI to try and determine
who may have prepared the letter. So what I'm ••y1n9 _. it
wa. one of those two mattera, but t just don't know which one.
Hr. Govan. Did you diaClull this matter with Hr.
Se.8 ione?
Hr. Hancock. I may havlII. don't recall whether
disCUU1Sd i t with Mr. Sessions or notl I may have. In fact,
probably did. t know for It fact that I d180\18 •• d i t with my
supervisors in the Department of JU8tta. and that someone
later dilcu8sed it with Mr. ses.ion8.
Hr. Bergquist. I think it's appropriate to note at this
point that Hr. S.ssions did not have the authority to tell the
FBI not to complete an investigation that's ordered by the
Department of Justice.
Mr. Govan. pardon?
Mr. Bergquist. Mr. Sessions ooe8 not have the authority
to tell the FBI not to p~oceed with an investigation that is

,
or~ered'by the Department of Justice.
Mr. Govan. Mr. Hal\cock, when did you first learn that
Mr. seSlionlha:d at'tempted to intervene in yourrequelt for
an FBI inVlstigation?
Mr. Hancock. My recollection, which is, again, fog9Y,
i ' that I became concerned that I didn't have the results of
the inv,esti9{lt1on and I checked to se. how the Bure{lU wal

82
proeeeding with the investigation, and i t was at that time

z
that I learned that the investigation was not being eonducted.
• Hr. Govan. Who told you that?

• .Mr. Hancock. believe it was theFS! told me that, but
I'm not positive of that.
• Mr. Govan. Headquarters or a field offiee?

7
Mr. Hancock. It would have been the headquarters office
• here in Washington.
• Mr. Govan. And what exactly did they tell you?

10
Mr. Hancock. That the investigation was not being
II
conductedt that the u.s. Attorney had, ! believe, instructed
" the local office not to conduct the investigation.

13
Mr. Govan. DO you know what reasons were offered?
to
Mr. Hancock. No, I don't.
" Mr. Govan. What was your reaponae to that?
" Mr. Hancock. I contacted my ~uperiors to tell them that

'7
.. thought that it Wa.B an investigation that we needed to
.. conduct and that I didn't think it was proper for. the United
s~ates 'Attorney to atop it.
'" Mr. Govan. Who di9 you contact?
•• Mr. Hancock. believe it was Mr, James Turner, who
..
Z2
was -- a9ain/
this, but I
I can't piece the time schedule together on
most likely talked to Mr. Turner about it. It may
have been during' the time before William Bradford Reynolds was
•• confirmed a8 Aesistant Attorney General for Civil Rights.

83
16
And during that time period, Jim Turner was Acting A.~i8t.nt
• Attorney General.
Mr. Govan. Notwith.tandlnq Hr. Bergquist',
• representation which I take to be true that Mr. Sess10ns did
not have authority to intervenG or attempt to intervene in
• the FBI investigation I:'equested by the Civil Rights Division

7
in Washington, you are certain that you were told by the FBI
that the reason they did not conduct the lnv8stiqat1on was
• because of Mr. Sessions' intervention?
Mr. Hanl::oek. I <ii<!n't say it was by the FBI thertll.
think I said by the field offiCe -- by the person in char'le
of these investigations in Washington. That'~ the best of my
recollection, yes.
not conducted at Mr. Sessions' request, can't say with as
much confidence that the FBI told me that or maybe Jeff
Sessions told me that. I don't know. I don't think that's
a matter in dispute, as far as I know.
Mr'. Govan. I hate to be repetitioulil. but did I ask you
did you lilpeak about this problem?
Mr. Hancock. Yes. and I think I lilaid that I may have
spoken to Mr. Sessinns about it at some point in the procelils.
In fact, I recall that I spoke to Mr. Sessionlil about it and

hIi
he confirmed that he thouiht it was an investiiation we should
,not conduct and told the Bureau not to conduct it.
F:
J:!·.'·.·.1.'
84
17
Mr. Govan. Old he offer any reaSons in support of hil

Z
opinion that the investigation should not haVe been conducted?
• Mr. Hancock. He didn't agree with, and I don't know that
• elln give any more det.ils than that. I don't recall
• precisely what he told me. He didn't think it was an
• investigation we could conduct.

7
He may have thought that we were -- I don't knOW what he
•
•. thought.
Wrong tree.
He lr1ay have told me that we were just barking up the
Those weren't his words, but I don't know if he

10
had knowledge of the local eitulltion involved.
11
It's very difficult for me because r'm not even sure
" which investigation it wa$. This matter was resolved very
" quickly and it didn't linger. It was a misunderstanding when

I.
i t arose and it's not unusual to have these kind of mis-
" unde~standings, and we resolved it.
" Mr. Govan. Prior to being told by the FBI that they had
17
not conducted the investigatiOn because ot Mr. Sessions'
." illtervention, had you ever heard tram Mr,
try his'office, any of his assistant U.S.

sessions or anyone
attorneys, with
20
respect to this investi~ation?
.
21
Mr. HancOck.
Mr. Govan.
No .
Would you have eKpeoted to have heard from
..
23
them?
Mr. Hancock. I would have no reason to hear from the

2.
assistant United States attorney about an investigation that
85
"
request, no.
Hr. Govan. Would you expect to have heard troM tho
United States Attorney?
Mr. HancOck. I don't ~. the United States Attorney Is
a copy of every investigation that we request. The
relationship with the United States Attorneys varies greatly
from district to district, and in some instances it's normal
that I talk to U.S. Attorneys about every step we take in
their dist:dct.
In other instances, we have no contact with united States
I can't give you any rules of what would be
Mr. Govan. Other than Mr • .,ames 'l'urn~r, your superior,
you discuss the Mituation with any oth~r colleagues in
Ol,vis'i on i
Mr. Hancock. On, I'm Bure I did. 1 ' m sure I talked
within my office. My immediate supervisor is Gerald
Jones, who'! the Chief of the Votin9 Seation, and I'm sure I
i t .... ith .Mr. Jones before I discussed it .... ith Mr.
I do have more recollection of disaussinq it with Mr.
I'm not sure Why that is, but I'm .sure r talked with
Jones about it, also.
Mr. Govan. Based upon your experience in the Division
voting rights caSElS, was Mr. Sessions' intervention

86
19
unusual?
, Mr. Hancock. It's unusual for a U.S. Attorney to tall
the Bureau not to do an investigation that we requested, yes .
• It's not unusullli to have disagreements .... ith United states
Attorneys over how to proceed in civil rights casas .
• Mr. Govan. To the best of your :t'8collection, this

7
investigation would have been conducted prior to the initiatio
e
of either of the two lawsuits?
e,
Mr. Hancock. No, no; not necessarily, no. If i t was
" involving the letter that I mentioned to you -- the letter

II
arose during the trial of the lawsuit, so that would have
" been requested while the litigation was pending.
" If it wes about our lawsuit that we filed concerning
" treatment Of voters at the poll", it w~J\llo have b«lln done
" before the laWBuit wa~ filed.
" Mr. Govan. You stated that you've attempted to recon-

17
struct the paper record of these events. In that attempt,
" wouldn't you have been able to locate the written request to
" the FBI' for an. investigation, and thereby determine which of
20
the two lawsuits this 07curred in?
" Mr. HancocK.. We should be abie to. I have had members
" of my staff check the records in Conecuh County and
"
. Mr. Bergquist.
requests were initiated.

Well, I'm sure both were done,
But you wouldn't know which one

both
" was n' t done.

87
20
Mr, Hancoek. Ky lingering relervation about thia 1a
~thlt I haven't beln able to locate an.PBI requllt eoncerning
the j:.reatment at the poll_ lawsuit. I know that we had the
Bureau -- I ,cont'irllled that we had the Bur••u Investlqlte the
lItter is,lue.
But, Igain, I'~ not trying to be eva.ive with you. but
my recollection 11 r •• lly not cle.r. When I started trying to
put this baek together, I remember the issue, of course,
'bee.uIIG' it was a di'lqreement th.at was not pleasant, Bven
though it WI. resolved qUickly.
But I thought -_ when I first tried to reconstruct it,
thought it was about our suit involvinq treatment of voters
It the polls, but I'm told we never had the Bureau do an
investigation about that.
So if my stllff is ri<j'ht t.hat. we never ~i~J t.hen my
recollect.ion is .... ron9'.
Mr. Govan. You charact.erized t.he eKperience as
un'pleasa.nt.. Why?
Mr~ Hancock. Well, any d~saqreement .... ith a United St.ates
At.torney is unpleasant. Aqain, thou9'h, I'm not suqqestin9'
t~at this ie snythinq outside my normal d~ties. 1 deal .... ith
United States Attorneys and work .... ith' United states Attorneye
on all our lawsuits.
By the vsry nature Of our lawsuits, they are the kind
that raise differinq opinions, particularly amonq local United

88
'1
States Attorneys, and that is one of the reasons that civil
• riqhts casss historically have been handled out of Washington
rather than in the looal United stetes Attorneys offices.
• Mr. GOVa~. The investigation that would have bsen
• requested would have been either a fraudulent letter,
• purportedly eoming from the Chief of the Civil Rights

7
of Justice or disoriminatory treatment of black voters.
• What was the discriminatory treatment being alleged?
• Mr. Hancock. we eventually filed a lawsuit against

10
Conecuh County alleging that black voters were subject to
" discriminatory treatment when they came to vote. Examples
" were that racially derogatory terms were used by poll

13
officials to the black voters) that older black voters were
I.
made to stand in lin~ for 10n9 p~riods of time to vot~,
IS
Whereas older White voters were o!fer~d chairS. The lines
" .were long.

n
Those are the kind of treatment ~- we also challenged
" in the same laWsUit discrimination in selecting persons

IS
pO~l workers. we wsre alleging that they discriminated
~
against black persons who desired to work at the polls,
U
the two were tied toqether .
• Mr. Bergquist, What was the resolution of the suit'

n
Mr. Hancock. The suit was settled by a
u
Mr. Govan. Did you have any particular response when
u
found out that the investigation had not occurred because 0
89
23
discussion with Se.8ions, deeided to atop i t on its own end
thIn 8.1d, we stopped it bee,us' we tAlked with Mr. S8'810n8.
The FaI should also know that Hr. S8s810n8 doesn't ha ...e
the authority to stop investigations requested by the
Oepartment of Justice. So that's something we c~n naIl down
very quickly.
Mr. Govan. If I could just follo .... 'up on Mr. Bel"9Quist's
comment, it's, my underetanding. Mr. HancOck, thillt you did
apeak to ~r. ses8ion8 and that Hr. S••• 10n8 noted ~~ during
that conversation, he noted hi. disagreement with the
investigation and didn't reel it ...... a good idea, and this
. conversation took pillee after you had learned from the FBI
that the investigation had not been don~.
Mr. H~ncock. Yes.
Mr. Govan. Have you had any othe-r ,int.uactions ... ith Mr.
Mr. Hancock. Oh, sure, yes. I've dealt with him on all
the la.... suits that .... e·ve brought in the Southern District of
A~abam~.
Mr. GOVan. Have Y9U ever had an experience with Hr.
on those la ...suits similaF to this experience?
Mr. Ha.ncock. No, no. Mr. sesaions haa been very
Cooperative and has not interfered with our litigation
In the Southern District of Alabama, we've
probably brought -- I don't know of any jUdicial district in

90
24
the country where we've brouqht more cases.

z
~r. Bergquist. Would you Characteri~e it more than just
z
not interfered? Hss he been cooperative?
Mr. Hancock. Yes, and we often had to ask sesistance
• from his office to get pleadinge filed at the last minute.
• Mr. Bergquist. Has he been cooperative in al,1 ventures?

7
Mr. Hancock. Yes, yes. He has made the stsff and
• himself available to sign pleadings when needed. If we have
to get something filed or if we have anything that needs to

10
be done, he has regularly been a very good help to us in
11
getting things done.
" Mr. Bergquist. So you see no resistance on his part to

13
civil rights litigants, in general?
14
Mr. Govan. Ken, I'm going to obj~ct ~o that questJ,on,
" in all candor. I mean, you're really here to o~~~rve
II
Mr. Bergquist. No. I'm here to protect the interests
17
of the Department,
II
Mr. Govan. understand, ~ut Mr. Sessions can ~e asked
II
tJ:lat question" and it seems to me
20
Mr. BergqUist. No, he can't be asked that question.
..
Z1
can be asked that question .
Mr. Govan. I think, in all ser'iousness, I'm .;oing to
." object. You have a much more limited role .
Mr. Bergquist. Well. I won't ask that question, then.

II
Mr. Klonoski. We can ask him at the hearin.;.
91
22
Mr. sessions' intervention w'ith the FBI?
Mr. Hancook. I'm not sure what you're getting It; My
response was to note my diSagreement with what he had done to
my superiors, and we resolved it.
Mr. Bergquist. How was it resolved?
Mr. Hancock. The investigation went ahead. we talked
to Mr. Sessions. I talked to Hr. sessions and others Inay have
talked to him. don't recall whether Mr, Turner talked to
Ilomeone from the Attorney Genersl's offioe talked to
don't know.
But it was agreed tha~ it was our call and that the
investigation would gO forwarc!.
Mr. GOvan. Were you anqryr
Mr. Hancock. I Wo!lS an\lry wh~n learned that the
investigation had been stopped, yes. I was pleased When we
it quickly.
Hr. Govan. Frank, do you have any questions?
loll'. Klonoski. The only ,thing I wanted to ask WAS waa
Ses"aions awal'e that he could or could not stop an
loll'. Hancock. don't know.
Mr. Klonoskl, That's all I have.
loll', Bel'gquist. Now, again, we have not established
did or did not stop it. That'S what the
Now, we don't know Whether the FBI, in

92
2S
Mr • • er9Quist.. No. 1 mean. ask him. How is Mr.
• S••• ione 901n9 to be able to charaoteri •• it from someone
• el •• ? 'hi question wa. vhether h••••med oOoperative,
• Mr~ Govan. And he answlred the question. HI •• id, ye.,
• he'. very oooperative. He signa pleadinga, he make. aure
• filings are done on time. arid h. hal regularly offered

7
aleiatanoe to the Civil Rights Division. The question wa.
• answered.
,.
• Mr.
I~r.
Berqquiat.
Covan.
Okay, I'll settle for t.hllt..
would think 10.

II
HIVe yOU ever heard Mr, Se'aions make remarks that you
" would oonlider to be racial1V insensitive?
.
" Mr.
~:r.
Han~oek.
Govan,
No, 1 have not •
Have yOU ever heard othtlca !lpl'ak of Mr.
"
II
Sessions having made such remarks?
Hr. Hanood:. Well, I have heard third and fourth-hand

17
that remarks have beGn made, but i t ' . hearsay upon hearsay
II
upo~ h.arl~y, and I don't have any kno~l.dge of my own.
to
have'had, actually, limited dealing_ with Jeff Session ••
II
have talked to hi~ a~out lawsuit., and that'. all.
." haVen't talked to hllfl about' anything ~here I would
any opinions of ~y own about his personal fee11ngs,

u
u
. what you're getting at •
Mr, Govan. Ihavl! nothing else.
Mr. Bergquist. paUl, thank. very auch.

,93
"
Mr. Hancock, Thank you all.
Mr. GOvan. Thanks.
(WhereupQn, the -ll}:)ove·entitled testimony WIlS, concluded.)

94
27
Whereupon,
I
J. GERALD HEBERT
I
wal called a. a witne •• and, having previoully been- duly
• Iworn, te.tified as folloW81
• Mr. Govan. Good afternoon. My name i. Reggie Govan and
• work for Senator Biden and the Judiciary Committee. Let me

7
first start off by explaining that Frank and I work for the
I
Committee and we are involved in preparing for the
• confirmation hearinq of Jefferson Sessions to the United
" Distriot Court in Alabama. That hearing is scheduled for

tl
tomorrow.
" Let me first establish that you and I did have a tele·
II
phone conversation SOme time last week, is that correct?
" Nr. Hebert. Yes.
" Mr. Gavan. And during that ~onversation, you confirmed
.
11
that you had spoken with a Mr. Fiak, who you identified as
the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York or

11
former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York?
."
11
Mr. Hebert. I think that's the name. yes.
remember, Robert Fisk.

That's wh~t
Mr. Govan. And you alao stated that Mr. Fisk asked
...
Z2
you seve~al questions concerning your view of Mr. Sessions;
fitness to be a jUdge, issues related largely to temperament
as opposed to your professional experience, is that correct?
" Mr. Hebert. Most of the conversation that I had with

95
28
Mr. Fisk dealt with jUdicial temperament and attitudes about
race. We started out, as I recall, the Convertetion with him
asking ~e about cases that we had worked on together.
Mr. Govan. And during that conversation, you were
unwilling. were you not, to share with me the substance of
your experience with Mi. Sesslons?
Mr. Bergquist, Let me again break in to say that by
doing so, he wes following departmental policy that any time
you are contacted by someone from the Hill, all such contact
must be cleared through my office before you are allowed to
answer any questions.
Mr. Govan, Fair enough.
Mr. Hebert. I did indicate that I would think it would
be inappro~riatc ~or me to reveal the substanc~ of m;
conversation wJth the ABA representative that had CDllta~t~o
u.
Mr. Gavan. And I told yOU I respected that conclusion,
10 that correct?
MT. Hebert. ~ou did, ;ight.
Mr. Govan. How long have you been aSSOciated or employe
by the Department of Justice?
Mr. Hebert. Since Auqust of 1973.
Mr, Govan. Did you coma to the Department right when
you graduat~d law schOOl?
Mr. Hebert. Yes.

96
29
Mr. Govan. What are your responsibilities?

, He. Hebert. I'm senior trial attorney 1n the Civil
• Riihtl Oiv!lion, working within the Voting Section, although

4
haven1t spent my 13 years all in the Voting Section. But
• have .pent all of my time within the Civil Rights Division.
• Hr. Govan. Has your interaetion with Mr. S88sions

7
occurred ainc8 you've been 4siiqned to the Votinq Rights
• Section?
• Me. Hebert. Yes.
" He. Govan. And what has been yOur interaction with
..
" Mr. SeSsions?
. Me. Hebert. I have been tha lead trial attorney
Justiee Department in approximately five or six easel in the
.." Southern District of Alabama,
under the Voting Rights Act

c~ses
'whflr~
allot whiCh haVe arlscfi
the United ~tates h~s been
" the plaintiff.

17
All of my contact with Jeff Sessions has been in
." connection with my handling of those cases.
~onsiderable
I'vi spent
amount of time in Mobile in 1981, for example.

SO
I haven't examined my travel records, but I think they would
,.
... Show I spent the greater part of 'two months in Mobile trying
two cales in the U.S. District court there .
.
SO
Mr. Govan.
with Mr. Sese ions,

HOW would you Characterize your interaction
you know, through the yaars in whioh you'v
been doing easel in the Southern District?

97
30
MI:. Hebert. Well, when he first took over the U.S.
Attorney', office, i t was II little different, I quees, _than
it is now. We, right now, have what I consider to be a
pretty good working relation$hip, and in terms of our
personalities, I think we qet along fairly well.
We have different viewa on a lot of things, but we're
able to put those Bside when it comes to doing dep~rtmQntal
business. When we started out back in 1901, I remember there
being Borne countering from Jeff, a little opposition to what
the Division wanted to do, and having II number of
conversations with him in his office in Mobile about his
eSSential unwilli'IQne~~ to qO forward with Borne things -- or
reluctanc~ more tha~ n~wilringnessj 1 guess.
Mr. Gnvnr.. HI""" <'lid that reluct8rlCe to go alon" with
Department initiativQ~ manifest itselfi
Mr. Hebert. Well, mostly, it was wher9 we were getting
ready to -- as ! r~cal1, the case I have in mind was in the
Mobile cases, w~ had intervened in the Mobile voting rights
"ases.
There were two of them, one in the fall of 1980 and the
other in the spring of 1981, bPth of which went to trial in
the spring of 19B1. ~nd J think Jeff made it pretty clear
that he didn't really think that these cases had much merit.
But he said he recognized that there were cases the
Department had decided as a policy matter it was going to get

98
11
involvud In Qnd that ther~ wasn't very much he could do

, it.
• Mr. Govan. What, to the best of your recollection, did
• Mr. Sessions say?

s Mr. lIebert, I don't know if 1 can recall, you
• was s~~d., I JUSt remember the gist of what he said was that
7
he didn't think these cases had merit. When I say ~thcso
• casas,u I'm referring to cases brought challenqing tIle at-
• large election systems, which Is what the two cases

10
~ou may recall -- I just remembered .- you may recall
" that ~round that time period _. if you looked into the
" cases at all, you'll remember that thefa was a big flare-up
"
. between Senator Denton, who criticized the JustiCe Depart-
ment's filing of an amended complaint in the MObile case

IS
boca\llll.' it <::ontl\ined tht:o term "wllite aupre~l\eYI" snd we w6r"
IS
sskcdtn dcl~te that reference in the cornplnint by Scnato~
"
" General '\lI\lth.
" ~ld ! tlllilk it W~9 in 2onn~ction with my discussion
" Jeff on that th~t ,we started talking a~Dut the merits of
..
21
ease s •
Mr. Govan. Co you recall Mr. Sessions expressing .-
making any expression with respect to the dispute raieed Cy
"
2S
senator Denton about thQ term "white sUJ:'remacy" bein9
contain~d in a Justice Cepartment pleading?

99
Nr. Ileb~rt. r remember we had a Convcr~ation about

th" t.
really dOn't remember what he said, though, but
remember we talked about it.

had spoken with Joff durin9
IS81 oh a lot of oCcasions, and
have since, BO it's hard
fOr me to really remember what he said about it.
I do remember that I had a conversation with him, though,
about Senator Denton's ~nsi~tence that we change the
complaint. In fact, the complaint was changed. t don't even
khowif Jeff gOt involved in it at all, but a new complaint
was filed <:leleting l;'Sferencea to White supremacy and we werit
forward with th~ case and we won it,
Mr. Govan. I'm aWare tho!lt you WOn the case. Do You
rec~ll him ~xpressing any views or o~inion about the Use of
the term "white supremacy" in the brief?
Mr. lIebert. No, I don't.
Mr. Gov~n. Have you ever he~rd Mr. 5essions express any
Mr. Ilebert. No, no.

We've talked a lot about blacks I
'"' wh<to, ' " ' wh,t pO'i"o,' n,y oo,ht " 00,"". bo< ",vee j_
never said anything about'white supremacy.
Mr, GOVan, Let's take a break.
Mr, Govan, How would you Characterize your discus8ions
Mr. Sessions concerning the positions blacks and Whites

100
Jl
Mr. Hebert. we had, a numl:HH of conversatiollB about
voting casea and civil ri9hts cases, and Jeff Is a vory
• amiable individual. He's friendly, and he has always been
• friendly to me, despite the fact that we haven't seen eye to
• eye on some things,
• But that has never stopped him from inviting me into his
7
office and talking very frankly about what h.is opiniOns were.
• And we talked about voting Cllses and civil rights caSeB
• generally, busing cases, and the role of public interest
" groups and, you know, how far you really should 90 in civil
" right. cases,
" And I think he has .aXpressed hie opinion to me nllmerOU'B
" times about that. He has a tendency to pop off, I qusss
" would be tIle best way to put it. sometimes about his
" Ije'l! an oplnionatQcl indi·ddual.
" I Ilave to also vut it in the contaxt of the fact that h~
" and r get alonq prntty well.
" t~r.' Govan. Okay.
" Mr. Habert. rt'$ not llke he's an antagOnist.

zo Mr. Govan. Has M~. Sessions exp~esaed an opinion
It
about buslnq cases?
II
Mr. Heber~. Yes.
.
II
II
Mr. Govan.
Mr. lIebert.
What i . his opinion?
Hs thi.nqs businqcases have 90ne too
He told me he thought that we are really making a mistake

,,101
"
driviog White people out of public education.
Mr. GOvan. !las he exprelHlsd an opinion to you about
voting rights cases?
Mr. Hebert. ~e8. I would say we've talked about voting
casas in particular, We've said about how remember
having a conversation with himl I'm trying to think if it
was not Voting Rights Act oasBs, I wouldn't say, actually,
now that 1 think about it.
We were talking about voter fraud caSBS, not about, you
know, VOting Rights Act, but the type or cases I
traditionally handle. don't get inVolved in voter fraud
very much.
Mr. Govan. What did Mr. Sessions Bay to yo~ with
respect to voter fraud cases?
ne0dcd to make ~ure that if anybody ViOlated the law tllat ww
worcgo.tllg to prosocutc them. w]leth<.lr t)wy \H!re bl/lck or wliil'
It really didn't matter to him.
It didn't matter, really, how it had h,appened in tho pail
;,either, lle said under his administration, he was 90in9 to
prosecute people for voter fraud.
Mr. Govan. Was there anything that he .. aid that you
dis~qrl!ed with?
Mr. ~ebcrt. Not on that, no, It was in Connection
with the Albert Turner case, whi~h wall just ready to go to

102
"
, trial at that point,
of hi. ~8.i.t.nt.
when
was there
\''''0 till ked about voter fraud.
durin~ that ~onverB.tion.

01'10
, Mr. Govan, And who wa. that?
• Mr. Hobert. I think hi. name was E. T. Rollison.

• Mr. Govan. And durinq that conver.4tio~. did Mr.
• Sessions acxnowlodge that there hll:d been voter fraud- in the

7
past?
• Mr. Hebert. well, he didn't say whether there had
,.
• or not. I made the point to him that with regard to
prosecution of cases like Albert Turner that there was a
" cencern among a lot of blacke that these are the types of
" things that had been happening before by whites, and that
". now that black. were starting to occupy positicns of
political power in the black belt of Alabama, they suddenly
." wero ~ep.inq
AI\<:\ I
themBelvos being prosecuted .
thoulJht there was a lot of resentment llnd 1
" him about that, ~nd it was at that point he aaid, wall, i~
" raally didn't matter to him whether it had happelHld bEffore
" o.r not', If they lIiolated the law, he was the u.s. AttorneY
zo
ana he was 901n9 to proleoute them. That's all Ireme~be~,
." Mr. Govan. Has ~lr. Sessions'~'"
s.s.ions made about the role of public interest groupe?

what comments has Mr l!
.
II
Hr. Hebert. Well, it was about
talkinq about voting rights cases, in particuillr.

~. I quess w. were
As I
recall, we had talked about the Mobile c •• e and he •• 1d

J03
that -- we Wers talking about, in f~ct, tho private lawyers
who had handled the Mobile csss and how they __ I had mentione
to him how diffiCUlt! thought it was for people in the
private bar to take on a major civil rights case in a city
like Mobile becaUse they underwent a lot of treatment by
fallow members of the bar that seemed to

they seemed to be
snu_bbed Or looked down on fOr having_done it.
mentiOned to him that 1 had, in fact, heard that one
of the judges- had referred to one of the White lawyers for
the plaintiffs as being a disgrace to his fAce for doing it.
And I said I didn't know whethclr it was true, but, YOU know,
had heard that that was said.
Mr. GOvan, And what was Mr. Sessions' response?
Mr. Rebert. He said, well, maybe he ~s.
Mr. Govan. Who was tho attor,\~y th~t tllay WQra talki,\u
abOut th~t_was heinW reforrad to?
Mr. Govan. What's his nama?
~I~. !-Jebet,t. Could 1 conSUlt with this 9c,lltlel'1an just

a minute?
Mt. Govan. SUts.
Mr. Hebetl. The lawyer's name is James BlaCKshire.
Mr. Govan. And is he ,White or blll.ck?
Mr. Hebert. He's White.
Mr. Bergquist. Was this a federal judge who said that?

104
37
Mr. Hebort. ~epQrtedly.
• Mr. Govan. I\l1d Mr. Sessions llIake any reSponse to you 'ill
any other way with respect to that?
• Mr. Hebert. IHth respect to Mr. Blackahire?
• Mr. Govan. Yes.
• Mr. liebert. No.
7
Mr. Govan. Di~ you understand Mr. Sessions to be jokinq~
• Mr. Hebert. I couldn't tell, to be honest with you, 1
• COUldn't tell.
10 Mr. Govan. Did you laugh?
" Mr. Hebert. ~o. I remember reporting it to my co.

12
counsel, who vas down the hall in the library at the U,S.
" Attorney's office.
" Mr. Govan. Did Mr. sessions laugh at the comment?
.
" Mr.
Mr.
Ilebort.
Govan.
110 smiled I he didn't laugh •
And you're certain that tho remark that

17
had hc~rd was th~t judqe ~K· considered Mr, alackshire a
18
...,
18
Mr, IlClb(lrt. Yes, that'll what I hlld heard the judge
said abnut Mr. alack~hire •
Mr. Govan. And Mr. Sellllionll.' response, the bellt you

zz recall, was maybe he is?
ZJ
Mr. Hebert. Yes, that'll what he udd,
Z4
Mr. Govan. Has Mr. Seeeionll made any comments
., specifically about the role of public interest groups as
,105
JO
opposed to privata civil riyhts ~ttorneYSt
Mr. lIebert. We IoIere talking about the NAACP and tho
ACLU, in particular.
Mr, Govan. were they involved in either of these cases?

• Mr. Hebert. I believe that the Mobile voting Cases that
Mr, Blackshire handled were, in part, financed by the NAACP
Legsl Defense Fund, although I'm not certain what arrangement
they had. But it wa~ my understanding the NAACP was
involved.
It wse in the context of my talking to Jeff about the
NAACP that he made worne comments about the NAACP and ths ACtU
Mr. Govan. l~hat wers the .QD.rnments?
Mr. Hebert. He said he thought that they were un-
American.
Mr. Govan. Did hn give a reason fOr his belietr
Nr. Hebert. lie said th~t he thought they did more hsrm
the throats of people who wcr~tryinq to put probl~ms bDhind
them. .
He. Govan. Let's take another break, please.
(Pause,)
Hr. Govan. What was your response to those comments?
Hr. Hebert. ! don't know that I actually had a response
pro.babl y I think I followed it up, as I recall, because
,remember us talkin9 about it for a qoed five or six~minuto

106
J9
interval, !.
,
50 1 don't know whether I said, you know, know you
, don't mean that or, you know; what do you mean by that.
• remember U8 continuing to talk about it.
• Mr. Govan. Is this an Bxample of the type of view that
• you and Mr. Sessions did not share?

7
Mr. Hebert. Yes. In fact, I think I told him that 1
• WAS asked to become a member of the NAACP by my local chapter
• ju~t around that eame time period,
" Mr. GOVAn. Did he have any reSponse to that?
" Mr. Hebert. No, he didn't makl! any response that I "lln;
12
remember.
." Mr. Govan. Did Mr. Sessions m.ake any remarks about any
organizations other than the NAACP or the ACLU that you

". rl~cal1?
" Mr. Hobert. In the context of talking about it at that

17
.
. they were ull-Ame~icanl I remember him using that word .
remember him s~yin~ that the~ were either communist.il\~pjr~d

20
again, he's m~de that comment to me two or three times,
2.
don't know that it was during that conversation that he
..
22
·that word or whether he used like "un-American" at that
and maybe at a later conveisation said they were .- I
. add that when he made that comment about the NAACP on one
the occasions. he sott of ribbed me about it and followed
(
107
40
up by s-'\ying, well, of course, you already know hOW I f(;l~l
on that, and he just laughed.
might add, you know, just while we're talking about it
that just talked with Jeff not too long ~90 and X reminded
h1m that I had talked to the ABA and he said, you know,
know that I've said some things to you, you know, where
spout off I I hnVe 4 tendency to do that.
YQU know, he's told me, you know, I know that you know
the things I've said and I -~
Mr. Govan. When did you have this conversatiOn with Mr.
Sessions?
Mr. Hebert. Friday! this past Friday. I had a telephOne
oonversation with hi~ about a matter we were handling in the
Southern District.
Nr. Govan. Did you 0,\11 him or did lie call you~
Mr. Hebert. I think I called him.
tlr. (,;ovall. About jlr",sQl1t l1tigation?
Mr. Hebert. U.S. versus Dallas COUnty Commission.
~~8 asking his opinion about a possible perjury investigation
that I thought the Departmentou9h~ tQ look into.

Mr. Govan. You're absolutely certain that Mr. Sessions
Mr. Hebert. I'm Bure that I called him.

,108
41
Mr, Govan. Waa it Friday mornin9 or Friday afternoon?

2
think it Wft$ Friday afternoon.
3
me today, also, but wasn't able to talk with him beeause I
• was just about to get in the elevator to come over here. I'
3
promised to send him some tranacripts Of this eonflicting
• , .,:1 ..
testimOny from the Dallas County ease.
7
Mr. Govan. In the eourse of your workings with Mr.
• Sessions, in YOUf opinion has Mr. Sessions' professional
• conduct ever been affected by these remarkS, Whether said
" jest or whether evidencing any serious belief in this?
.
"
cases.
Mr, Hebert. \~ell, he hasn't interfered in any of my
That would include the Dallas County caBS and the
" Marinqo County. case and the two Mobile cases, the Conecuh
" County case that worked on, or the Monroe County case is
" gOt involved in, or Pritchard-Alabam~,
" another case I h~d in his district.
" lie has n~~er, y011 know, intecfored witll mti 1"
" those cases. He hasn't had much to do with them.
" Mr. Govan. llave you ever experienced difficulty in
.
2D
cooperation with Mr.
~r. Hebert. No,

Se~sions'
nO.
office?
In fAc~, I've been able to call
.
Z2
on the phone and ask J.ff if I
secretary that needed to be filed Within the

could dictate a paper to
" been willing to help me out. Th"t just h"ppened .... it':in. th
" last t .... o months.

109
Nt'. Govan. DO you know whether Me'a failed to cooperate
or hils interfered in cllses of other assistants in the Justice

Department?
Mr. Ilebert. Well, I only know what happen~d with our
Conecuh County Cllse, but PaUl Hancock is in /I better positiOn
to talk about thllt thlln ! am.
Mr. Govan. Oltay, fair enough.
Mr. Hebert, Paul and I had talked about it /lnd he and
both have II very fUZZy recollection about Conecuh County.
W/IS Paul's elise primarily.
Mr. Govan. You talked earlier about your viewl and
sessions', /lnd you have di!ferentcpinions with respect

and the position that bl'cke Ind whitos Ought to
Is your opinion about that differenc~ based upon the
COrnmQntR thllt you've r~lated to us today?
Mr. Hebert. In part. we've h~d conversationti in whiuh
'v~ talked about whether or not the riyht to VOte includc~
right to register and to cast the ballot or whether
i t ought to alao inclu~e the riqht to have that ballot
I!leanin'a'ful.
And it was in the context, rthink, really of that
l'cone:ept that we. haVe, I think, a pretty different opinion
ab¢ut whether black. a8 a qroup have equal political
opportunity within a juri.diction.

110
.,
Mr. GOvan. And I take it you're referring to voter
dilution casss that are brought usually under Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act?

• Mr; Hebert. Riq~t, those are th~ ones.
Mr. GoVan. And what has been, or is, Mr. Sessions'
•
, opinion with respect to the efficacy of Section 2 cases?
Mr, Hebert. Frankly, I don't think he understands what
• dilution Is. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of people on"

• the tederalbench who seem to have that same view. They
" don't understand how--if you can reqister and YOu can go to
" the polls and vote, Why the Voting Rights Act ought to give
II
you anything more than that.
" Mr. Govan. Has Mr. sessions ever expressed an opinion

I.
that the way in which wards or precinct lines are drawn is
" !rrel~vant to thc determination of Whether people have An
" effective rigl\t to !,arti~i~Atc7
" Mr, llebert. No, I thin_ he's of the view -- at least
" in conversations witll ma, I've gotten the impression that
" t~in_s' that gerrymandering for racially discriminatory

ro
reasons is a definite way that you can harm blac.k voters,
"u think he understands that.
That',! a fairly simple concept. It's really the

• dilution questions that I think are a little tougher for
• to understand.
Mr. Govan. And by »dilution questions,» you ~ean

1ll
44
the Department's ehallenqlny of the at·larqe
electoral schemes in some counties in Alabama, 10 the S~uther
of Alabama?
Mr. Hebert', Riqht.
Mr. Govan. Has the DePartment. in fact. won moat of
Hr. Hebert. We have .- do you vant me to stoP?
Hr. Bergquist. No, if you're t.lking about (aSe, that
are already do~c. You can't talk about ono, that afe ~~
Mr. Habert. We've prevailed in the two Mobile cBses
mentioned, and We obtained II consent decree in the Conecuh
County case, although that waa not II dilution caSe. The two
Casea were dilution cases.
We obtained just II week &go Friday II ru1in9 from the
bench a~ter the trial in Selma in the Dallas County casc in
our favor, and We obtained II successful judgmont against th~
Marlnqo County Commil'lsioll and School Board l,ast l'i<.lpternbor
a trial that I handled in those c~s~s.

112
Mr. lIebert. Part of the Dallas County case remains

2 pe,nding.
2 11r. Govan. So your conclusion that Mr'. Sessions is

, reluctant in his support for some of the civil rights
• initiatives of the Oepartment of Justice.is based upon
• conunents that he made to you, that he did not think it ~Ia$
7 appropriate to be filing the challenge to the Mobile at-
• large electoral seat?
,.
• Mr. Hebert. I don't know if it was just
think, you know, just on conversations have had

~~bile.
I"li th hiD
over a four- or five-year period. that is the impression

"
12 get, that he doesn't think these cases have much marit.
" r·lr. Gov~n. Arc there any other comments that I-lr.
14 Sessions hau made that :Iou wOl'.ld characterize as racially
15 insansitiv~?
" ~'r. JJobert. t~i!ll. J have already given some.
~ir.
" C;ov,1n. !IrQ there any other!!?
m', lIebert. I Cem't recall any specific comr.lents he 'h

" Ii·
wile~ we talkJ.
.
18
21
made. ,As I say, the general- impression
about racial questions is that he is not a very r.ensitive,n
petson when it comes to race relations.

:r get
. l1r.
Hr..
Govall,
liebert,
Do you }:now Mr. Blackshire?
Yea, I do quite ,,,ell.

v:'
"
~
11',
IIR. Govan. lI~s Mr. Blac;kshire ever been • partiCiPa~~III·
21 in diucussions or meetings in which you and I"" . Sessions
113
have participated?
~~. Hebert. Not any involving questions about either
Mr. Blackshire or race discrimination cases. ~~. Blackshire

perhaps ClUTle into the U.S. Attorneys office in l-bbile ,...hen I
was there 4S the department's attorney on the voting cases
that came in to me.
Mr. Govan. And so' you wer~ essentially co-counsel Hith
the NAACP in the ~bbile case?
Nr. !lebert. IJe intervened as the plaintiff, They Nerc::
the original plaintiffs, They had brought that casein 1975.
We interven~d in 1981.
Mr. Govan. Have you ever hoard make any remarks about
the National Council of Churches?
Mr. Hebert. No. have not.
:11'. Govan. llave you ever IIClard him [,lake remarks about
any other group that you consicler to be active in behalf of
liberal, pr'o9rcssiva, civil riQhts iRsues, ~\lshinq for' aoci:I.I
change. issues of race or soci~l' justice?
Mr. Heb~rt. ha'~n't heard him say anythinq about an
organlzation thAt can remember.
Mr. Govan. lIave you ever beard Mr. Session's make a

,·;,remark about the Klan?
Mr.- Hebert. Only perhaps in making a COl'lllnent, ,tome about
,how they are going to have a Klan prosecution in his distrie~.
I!omething like ,that.

114
"
Mr. Govan. Do you recall the context of that having
• come up?
, Mr.' Hebert. No, 1 can't, my recollection 113 vary
• Mr. Govan. 00 you recall him being proud of that
• prosecution?
• Mr. Hebert. I really don't rernember much about it.
7 1 think something may have been said to that effact.
• Mr. Bergquist. We have got the two Klan experts
• Hr. Govan. Experts on what? Their experts is based
to what? That determines on whether I want to stay or not-,

./
Mr. Bergquist. prosecutin1, the cl~ims.
"
" Mr. GOvan. Frank?
" Nr. Klonoski. I don't have! anyti1ing..
" Mr. Bergqui~t. Let me as~ one brief qU~dtion.
IS seem like Nr. Sessions likes to engage in contcmtious debatf:>
" on a friendly basis?

I
" ,"'lr. Hebert. I would ,ay th.:lt is true. He ami I -get
. along VP.).-y \~oll.

\
rolF. Does he"like to throw a couple stinq~rs

" Bergquist.
so at you to get you to deba.te, you know, h. just likes to
.
"
u
down and talk?
Mr. Hebert.
,
Ho fmjoyu discourse in his office '0 yo~
i'
een just sort of roll your sleeves up .nd eay let's
.
'u this fact that, you know, you are down here from Washinqt?";
this big official .1usHee Pepartment, I am the tl.S, Attor~e-;
\.
115
48
let's talk one lawyor to.mother or from ono porson to
other.
Mr. Bergquist. lie seems to .enjoy that.?
Hr. lIebert. lie does.
nr. Bergquist. Does he
Mr. Hebe~t. There is A judge down in that district who
very similar already in doing that with me personally and
would say that Jeff is very similar.
~lr. Bergquist. Let me just ask -~
Hr. Hebert. lIe is engaging, I gueSfl would be the best
to put it.
fir. Bergquist. Bernie Katz touched on it, but let me
you specifically. In your dealings with him, has h<i! done
anything improper as far as handling cases. or anything like
Mr.. lIobert. The only thing that I know about is the
County caGe. In terms of handling the Dall<Js COllnti'
the r~aringo County case or the 1-lobile cases, he has
anything to interfere with my prosecution of those
Mr. Govan. In facti you consider you and he have a

,er~ain camaraderie. a rapport with one another. what rou
obvious differences?
! 3 .. Mr. Hebert. would hope we do. I don't know i f he
I think we do.
"
Mr.. Covan. And notwithstanding -that camaraderie, nr.
2 Sessions talked to you this past Friday about remarks thll't
he may have mad~?
• 11r. Hebert. Right. and it \'laltn't in response to my
5 saying. you know, he once called the liAACP this or he once
• said blacks are that. It was, you know --
7 that I received a call from you and he brougl\t up the 000-
8 firmation case in a conversation, at the end'of our conver-
• satian about the further questions, and he said I am goinq
10 to be up in your neighborhood this week and I sai~ I would
11 try to get together with him ~lhen he came up.
" ~Ir. Bergquist, Mr. Sessions does not know tha\ he is

13 coming and __
" 11r. Hebert. NO problem.
" fIr. 13crgqui!lt. Okay. am just telling you that he
16 does /lot knO~I.
17 Hr. HGbert. I apprecii'\tc it.
And hOl1 did ~!r.· Sessions characterize el"t'll

" t'lr. Govan.
19 his re,r,lark!l or \~hat he perceived to bel, the implications'{j(i
20 his remarks?
" Hr. Hebert. I don"t really kno\". All I can tell
22 what he ~aid to me Qn the phone, and that was he said,
11 know, you and I have had a lot of conversations 'over the "
.
24 years and, you knol", I have a tendency to pop off,.
the exact words he used . said I know, and I said

That
il7
50
~ you before that I had talked to the ABA about some of those
very things.
~Ir. Govan. You have already discuaseu with Hr.
Sessions
Mr. Hebert. I had \iIi-eady mentioned 'to him shortly
a,fter Mr. Fisk had called.
Mr. Govan. During the conversation you had I,'ith hr.
l;e88ion8, did he mentioned whether he had spoken with me
that Friday?
Ilr. Hebert. No, he didn't say al~ythin9' r thin/: I
mentioned your name.

Hr. Klonoski. During the conversation, did 'na ask. you
to tell everybody about these comm~nts he had made or --
Mr. Hebert. No, no, not at all.

Nc. Bergquist. Has anyone slOked you not to reveal any
the --
I·lr. /Iebert. No. no. In fact, just the oppositC!. rhc',!
me to tell the truth and teil evorything I kno~', and .T
'tried to do that.
"lr. Govan. How much money do you have in your ,pockGt?
tLaughterJ
Thanks a lot';
Mr. Hebert. Okay.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled testimony was concluded.)

us
51
TI;S'rIMONY OF IIL!:E!~T S. GLENN

, Mr. GOVL;;'l. We have not met or tall:ad before, ia that
, COrrect?
• Mr. Glann. That's correct .
• .Jlr\. Govan. My name is, Reggie Govan and 1 am Minority
I Counsel and investigator for tho Judlciary Committee and 1;
1 work for Senator Biden's staff.
• We are ~- the committee is preparing for

9 hearing on Mr. Jefferson Sessions' nomination
10 District of Alabama. Are You awarG of that?
11 M,. Glenn. I am.
" '" . Govan. And have you had an OCCAsion to work with
/1r. Sessions?
"
I. ~lr . Glenn. I havfI.
15 Me Govan. In what capacity?
16 /-1r. Glenn. As a trial attorney for the U.S. Departm~nt
17 of ,Justice, Criminal Section, pursuln9 nil investigntion
II the Southern Diytrlct of Alabama',
MX. Govan. How long have you been employed by the

"
20 Rights Division or the Department of Justice generally?
Mr. Glenn. The answer is the same for

"
22 1982, is my starting- date .. an<3, I .have .worked conUnuously
ZJ since then.
Mr~ Berqquist. Let me make one remark. If you a~e.
2$ asked about cases that are still under litigation. you

119
'"
refuse to answer.
Mr. Glenn. underat:and~
Mr. Bergquist. But if the cast has cornpletedlitigation
can di~euss them.
Mr. Govan~ Did you join the department immediately
upon graduating from law school?
l"-r. :Glenn. No.

Mr. Govan. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Glenn. l' worked for a Senior United States District
Judge for the District of Oregon.
~lr. Govan. Is that right? Nhich Judge, Solomon?
"lr. Glenn. IH11 h,r.l

Mr. Govan. Okay. There is a Solomon; isn't there?
Mr. C;lenn. He is also a senior judga. lie is quite a
charactC!r.
Nr', Govan. Off tlle record, people from Oregon are
gener~llY characters.
(Laughter)
wbat caseR have you worked on with Mr. SessionRl'

Mr. alcnn. It was the ,investigation of circumstances
death of ftichaelDonald.
Mr. Govan. What was'your role~-in the'Donald case?
Mr. Glenn. I willpretace my remarks 'here by aayinq
believe this time it is still an open invest1qat1on,there
remain to be made concetn1nq what 101111
,120
53
happen in this ~nvestiqation, so I can only
2 Mr. Uergquist. You may-.remark -- does this refer to
any litigation at all?
.. Mr. Glenn. It is a criminal investigation.
S Mr. Bergquist. know, but has it gone to liti9atiori~'
• Ilas it actually gone to trial, any portion of it?
7 Mr. Glenn. It has not. There is an on-going grand
8 investigation .
• Mr. Govan. There is in fact also a part of the caso
10 that was closed?
" Mr. Gl~nn. There have been Borne' public matters
" this case --
" Hr. Bergquist. You may discuss those aspects of it.
Mr. Clenn. All right.

"
t~hat involv<:!n1Gnt have YOll hild ~lith 'l\lr.
" Ml:. Govan.
Sessions in the Donald case?

"
" :'lr, 1;10nn, He is the Unito<lc !iti1tes l\ttQr.nc)' in thu'
District of Alabama. Ne, in conjunction

"
his offica inv£!stigaterl that'case and cond\lct£!d tho <:;rtlncl'"
"
2' jury invotitigation. Mr. Sessions was
21 continually appricEld of the direct'ion of the
22 what was happening. While not attending all of the
2' the investigation. he was fully on top of 'it. so it
..
2A that capacity.
11r. Govan. What was your role and resp01"'sibj.Hty;i

121
Donald cas&? ~~om did you work ~lth ~nd how were the re-
sponsibilities divided up. if there was a ne&tw~y'of d01ng
it?
Mr. Glenn. I initially came ante the Donald Case in
March-of 1983 as the second department attorney on the case.
The other departmental attorney who w~~ke4 on theCaBe was
aarry J<owaleh1, K-o-w"a-l-s-k-i. In 'additiona, an attorney'
in Mr. Se&8ions~ offic9, ThomaS Fi9ures, was assigned to the
CP..~C.
The three of us worked on t'he'invest19ation toqether and
investi9ated parts of it and were divided'in no particular
way amon9 us. I perhaps more'than the others worked on the
189&1 theory:side of the federal charqe in that matter, but
1n terms of the aotual field ",ork when we were in !"obi-le,
there W&~ no particular division.

Mr. Govan. 00 you recall when you first began to wor~
f-ir. :-;O:;llilll\S on t.ho Dona.ld CM~O?
~lr. Glenn. \. til'tlt
Mr_ GOVAn. The first 8~aqe the' case was in.
M.r. Glenn. If-i;rst met Mr. Session15 the first time wEt
to Mobile. w~ich was tha be9~nnin9 of the 9tAnd jury
nvestiqation, whioh was about May 18t or 2nd of 1983.
Mr. GoVan. Prior to that, had you hAd any t.lephone

pnv~t&&tions with, him?
Mr. Glenn. No,

122
55
Mr. Govan. l1hat was the purpose of the meetin~ in
Z Mobile in May of '83?
3 :1r. Glenn. In Hoy of '83. Mr. Kowalski and I had
4 traveled to Mobile, along with the U.S. Attorneys office,
S conduct the grand jury investigation, 80 it was the actual
8 beginning of,that investigation.
7 Mr. Govan. And when you _ca.me to Mobile, the decision
8 had already been made to convene the grand jury investigati~n
• Mr. Glenn. That's correct .
Nr. Go·van. Do you know Ilnythi n9 about tlle

"
11 which led to the decision to convene that grand jury?
" fir. Clenn. Not of personal knowledge.
Ko\<talski~s
" Mr. Govan. Do you know uhat Hr. role I'las in
14 deciding to convene a grand jury?
15 ~1r. (ilenn. Mr. KOI<talski was tll~ attorney in our
16 section from Justice and he was responsible for overscein~l
17 that c"se from our end of it.
\9 Mr. Govan. II'hat was r1r. Figures' rol~?

. \9 Mr. Glenn. He was the attorney in the U.S •
20 office who was responsible for overseeing the ca'sc.
II Mr. Govan. During the course of your work on the

22 case, have you ever heard'Mr'. Sessions make any
I' the Klan?
U Mr. Glenn. I'm aware of one incident which I

Is you are leading to involving some joke about it.
123
"
~lr. (;1enn. If I was leilding, Ken would object.
, ~lr. Bergquist. No. This is an informal session, not a
formal ~- we are not in rules of evidence here, so you may
lead the witness if you wish.
Mr. Glenn. I know what you are referring to.
Mr. Govan'. What am I referring to?
Nr. Glenn. I think you are probably referring to some
• comment Mr. Sessions made in his office in response to in-
formation that members of the Klan were using drugs, Rome
comrilent by Mr. Sessions that he used to have some sort of
respect for the Klan. J can't recall with certainty \~hether
I was present or not, but I believe I was, but I can't be
sure that I'm not recalling aomeone's telling me about that,
although think IU:lS there.
~1r. 13ergquist. ~Jas this in a joking reference?
~lr. (~1cnn. Vas. 'J'bat is my next point, that i t nc;ver
illlY illl~H'cssion on me because T thought it \1<lS just <I
ann that is all it was and that is all i took it tQ
mean, ~hc way h~ said it.
Mr. Govan. So what you are i:l<lying you !ue not sure
were t;lere, but if you were there you knew it
to be a joke?
"/I!r. Glenn. I I m pretty sure I was there. My only
hesitation is someone else said it, I am not sure was
there and So it :Ias now been some time, a couple of years.
'0 - 87 - 5
124
"
Hr. Govan. Nhc was there?
, Mr. Glenn. I'm pretty sure
Mr. Govan. If you were there, you would knew? You

• know, who do you think WAS there?
I Mr. Glenn. 1 think Barry Kowalski and Thomas Figures
8 and Jeff Sessions were there. l'rn pretty surl\! I was there.
7 Mr. Glenn. Do you recall when it happened?
8 Mr. Glenn. No. No. It would have
• Mr. GOVAn. How many times have you discussed this com-
10 ment since it occurred?
II Mr. Glenn. I haven't really discussed it with anyone.
12 I haVe heard it ·raised within the last four or five months
13 in the context of "'.t" ..Sessions' nomination,
14 it came back to me. that from the time it was made, which I
15 sllspect was proPl'lbly late '83 or early 1984, \mtil it CAme
16 up during the course of this investigation, I had not
17 any comment or a\,ything about it at all.
18- Hr. Govan. liad you thought "'bout it sinC'e that time?
Hr. Glenn. No.

"
~ Mr. Govan. Who did you hear it fr~~ within
21 month", that this cOJ1'l!'!'lent Was the Subject .of some
U inquiry?
21 Mr. Glenn. Probably from Barry:Kowalski.
U Mr. Govan. What did he tell you?
25 Mr. Glenn. I think only that it had come up in the'

125
58
course 'of th~ invl,lstigation in /.\r. Sessions' nor.tin<ltion,
nothing very specific. That is what I recall. Really, it
was just a passing remark to me one day in the office.
Mr. Govan. At that time did·you have a recollection of
having been present and heard Mr. Sessions s ....y that?
Mr. Glenn. Nell, that is when it came hack to me and I
recognized t:lat, I knSI,' I had heard that before and I think
at that time I also tl10ught that I heard it personally.
Mr. Govan. Do you have any recollection of there being
any discussion the day of the comment or the day after the
comment was made about the comment?
Mr. Glenn. Not with me.
Mr. Govan. Do you think if you had been there and had
heard the comment made, that you and others would discuss the
comment, at least jokingly a couple times aften"ards?
Mr. Glenn. Not necessarily.
1-1r. Govan. Do you kno\-' i f ~1r. F iCJlJt'en hOura tho conrnel1 t "'j
Hr. Glenn. 1 think he did. In fact, I think 11r.
has told me that Mr~- Figures liad mcntiQ'!.ed it dur'inq
courcs of this investigation?
Mr. Govan. If such a comment was made in Mr. Figures'
Mr. Figures have laughed?

Mr. Glenn; Probably, that is likely.
Mr. Govan. Ilr. ~'i9ures would have laughed?
Mr. Glenn. Yes.

126
"
Mr. Govan. Do you have any specific recoll~ction of
2 what the comment was other than expreGsing some general
3 respect Or regard or whatever word you ufle fot' the Klan,
4 albeit in jest?
I Mr. Glenn. It was said in jest, and the word I recall
• is respect, I used to resp~ct them or I used to have some

, respeot for them. + also believe he waS smiling a3 he said
• it and I took it as 'a joke. did not take it ~eriously,
.•
that he meant that ever had I did not tak.e it that he
meant he had any

11 Mr. Govan. What would have changed the respect that he
" had for the Klan. Did he express in that ~e~ark.
" that would change his respect for the Klan?

Mr. Glenn. didn't express explici tly. The remark
" He
was Illude in response to some comment mado in 11is office

"
about information we received that someone in the Klanhac\
"
bC0n llsillq c'lru9s or had drugs.
"
~lr. ('ovan. \~a!l it a news r'eport?
"
Mr. Glenn. No, I'm sute it was not a news report.
"
20 />Ir. Govan. Lt ""as information that hau been
21 Mr. Bergquist. That is an item under investigation.
U Hr. Govan; l~hat is?
13 Mr, Bergquist. It is an investigative report and we
U can't say anything more about it, They were disoussing an
21 investigative report,
127
60
~'r. Govan. Oh, okay.'1'hat was my nG)tt question.
didn't have fa~ to go.
Mr. Eergquist. I'm not suppos~d to toll you that is
what it was, but that is what they were discussing.
Mr. Govan. Okay.
Have you evex heard Mr. Sesgions make any remarks
similar to that since that time?
Nx. Glenn. No.
l1r. Govan. Have you e.ver heard people discuss alleged
remarks similar to that?
Mr. Glenn. No.
Mr. Govan. Do you have a view as to the level of Mr.
Sessions' cooperation in the investigation of the Donald
case:
Mr.r,lonn. Y(J!;,
J~:t. (;ovan. I.. hat is that?
M1'. r,lonll. rIc hMl been coop~rntinl1 ,18 fllll~! ..lS ( coult.
€Xpoct, as fully <.\5 is possible. lie hafi been fully coopora-
with us in all respects' in the Don<tld investigatlo'l
sti1rt to finish.
Mr. Govan. Have you ever heard Mr. Figures expressing
dissatisfaction with Mr. Sessions' actions or lack of actions
the OonalQ case?
Mr. Glenn. I can't recall any specific comment that Mr.
Figures may have made saying that he was dissatisfied with

128 '
61
any particular decision by Mr. Sessions.

z ~lr, Govan, Do you know anything about the interaction
of Figures and Sessions concerning the Donald caGe?
4 Mr, Glenn. Not specifically, no. know that they
• \~ould confer from time to time. 1'1e would -- I would or
• W~ll{'" I "can only speak for myself, I would occasionally
7 if questions or requests or something or other and I know
• that Mr. Figures would say he would speak with Mr. Sessions
• about it and he would and then we would talk afterwards.
" I know that they would have interactions during the co~rse
" of the investigation, and the subject would have been the
" subject of our investigation.

Mr. GoVan. 00 you know anything about Mr. Figures' and
"
14 Nr. Sessions' interaction prior to your involv.eI'lent in the,~
15 case
(/lann. No.
" ML
,. ~11.". Covan. -- which

'7
t'lr. (ilenn. No.
~l~. l<lonoski. EXC\ISe moe, did they 80em to havll a

"
..
2D working rlllationship as far as this cane?
.. Mr. Glenn.
point of view.
That's probably hard from a definitional
When I was in Mobile, we were all
..
discuss the case together without any problems •
Mr. Xlonoski. So things were going pre ty
7
z. .AS you were concerned?
129
"
~li, Glenn. l'le11, we had full cooperation from the U.S.
Attorneys office. There was nothing that I ever observed
When I was in Mobile between Mr. Sessions and Mr. Figures
which inhibited or interfered ~'ith the investigation,
Nr ,Govan. And t'lr. ~'i guces ·...as intimately invo1 vad
in that case?
Mr~ Glenn. He was.
Mr. Govan. It is a case that ~lr. Sessions can justify
if he claims the credit for as the prosecutor.
Mr. Glenn. Certainly.
Bergquist. HopefUlly. I~e hav~n't finll:ll1ed yet.
Is there anything else you want to say about Mr. Sessions,
subjectively or his professional competence?
Nr. Glenn. Yes, I would like to add that. although my
encounter with him was brief, he has becn fully cooperat:ive
lind fully supportive in €lverythinq thllt ~le have done in this
invosti()"tion, from th~ bG!ginning to the end. I have no
qUC8tiOils at all abolJt his credibility. He haa alao been an
easy iQdividual to work with'. He doesn't have an ego problem,
as one way of putting it. He is an easy person to approach,
an easy person to bring ideas to, .and he will listen tD us
as well. So!n the limited cD~text Df working on the criminal
''investigation, I have had no trouble and am very pleased 'wi th
'his Competence, his work and his cOoperation.
11r. Govan. Frank. do you have anything?

130
63
I, Mr. Klonoski. You said this is the only case you hnve
2 been involved in with r·lr. Sessions? Are there any others?
Mr. Glenn. ~e had one discussion a couple of months
• ago on another matter which has since been closed, but that
• was only one phone call. This has been the only case which
• has Come up as a major investigation.

7 Mr. Govan. The matter that you worked
• on involved a shoottinq at a house being shown to a black
• couple?
'" Mr. Glenn. think that he told me about that, but
" really didn't talk to him about it because that wasn't a

12 assigned to me. referred him or had another attorney
" him because I was not assigned to that case. There \las
" another matter which we closed, becausG it was a deat:!. cnce.
..
" Our pr03ctice is that all casas in
Volved, we consult with the u.s.

\~hich
Attorneys office
death is in-
17 cloRe t:lem, and I had a case in whic!1 a death wa3
and so I consulted with him. \~asn't

" It· really (:r, cl0ge
"
20·
questiDn and there was no basis for a federal --
Mr. Govan. \'1hat was the case?

21 Mr. Glenn. It involved basically the death of a
..
22 man who was found dead floating in a river somewhere in
Alabama, in tlle Southern District of Alabama •
where, so r can't assist and give the name of

2S the geographic location. 'l'l'le black man and some other pe
131
64
had been there for some Sort of a party- t~le night bafore
and SOmebody had come in bankin9 on the GOO~ and ~ade a
racial remark and the black man had run off, aou three d~ys
later his body was found. We Concluded there \las no balds
for federal jurisdiction in that case, and it wasn't a close

case, but it being a death case we had to talk to Mr.
Sessions about it.
~lr. Govan.
have nothin9 further.
~lr. KlonoskL I have one more, During your interaction

he dOhe anything improper?
Mr. Glenn. Never.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled testimony was conclUded.)

132
65
TESTINONY o!" DANIEL L. BELL

, llr. Govan. 1 am Reggy Govan and I ~Iork for the Senate
JUdiciary Committee, minority counsel and investigator, and
• I work primarily for Senator Biden. l'1e are preparing for ~.
• confirmation hearing in the nomination
• to be a Federal District JUdge for the Southern District

7 Alabama.
• First, let me es-tablish that YOll and I don't know
other and we haven't spoken before, is that correct?

to Mr. Bell. As far as I know, yes.
.. Mr. Govan. And how long have you been employed by
" Oepartment of Justice?
" ~lr. Bell. since t-lay 1970.
" Mr. Govan. Did you come to the department right out o.
"
..
law school?
Mr. Ball. No, I taught school for a cou!Jle
17 then 1 W<:lllt with the dep.... rtment.
Of Mr. Govan. What are your. present res90nsibilities?
..
" M~. Ball. I am Deputy Chief of the
the Civil Rights Division •

crimin~l section 0
.. Mr. Govan. Are you a colleague of Barry
respect to where you fit in the hierarchy?
.
Z. Mr. Bell.
Mr. Govan.
That's correct •
Equivalent positions?
If Hr. Bell. Yes.
133
66
11r. Govan. Do you know Nr. Sessions?
~lr. Bell. Yes, I do.
~li::'. Govan. In What cal,acity do you know him?
j1r. Bell. have known him since about 1977 or '78, at
which point I had a civil rights prosecution in the Southern
District of Alabama and Mr. Sessions was an Assistant U.S.
Attorney at the time and \qas quite helpfUl to me in the
prosecution of this casa, which was an extremely difficult
one. have known him since in his dealings with tho Crimina
Section on a return basis. I think for a time he was absent
frolll the U.S. Attorneys office, but am not sure what period.
But in any event, I have known him in a professional way
during this time.
Nr. ben/guist, Lat me interject here, and caution you.
'{ou may discuss Cd.'H.'S that have completp.d litiq,Hionl ,~,n\'
cases tJlat are still under investigation or panning litir!,l-
tion you may onl~' t.:.lk <lbout in yone.111 terml;.
:lr. 13<:11. Certainly.
11.0. Go\'t\n. !lave you ever heard ~lr. Sessions max£! re-
marks that you considered to be racially insensitive?
Mr. Bell~ Not at all. Not at all. As a matter of

fact, my impression of Mr. Sessions is that he is very eager
to p'ursue criminal civil rights cases and he certainly wa.s
at the beginning of my acquaintance with him. The particular

CaSe I tried, the government had indicted the sheriff of
134
67
Mobile County and eight of his deputies for deliberately
Z setting up an ambush and murdering a black inmate, an ex-
tremely unpopular case in nobile, and there were a number
people even in the United States Attorneys office who were
5 not too eager to be that friendly to the prosecution,
S especially a couple of Washington-based la....yers. And Hr.
7 Sessions and the then U.S. Attorney, Charles Whit(npunneY,
and his successor, William KemLrow, were all very helpful

9 the prosecution.
10 ;!r. Govan. What attorneys were not eager to be assa-
f! dated \~ith this case?
12 /.tr. Bell. There were a few assistants who did not
'3 to be that eager to be associated with us.
'4 Mr. Govan. l'ihieh assistants?
" ~lr. Bell. I don't rf~call their names right at the mo"
16 mont.
17 11r. Govan. On \~hllt basis do yOIl form that opinion?
" tlr. Dell. TLer0 '·Ias a lot of talk abO\lt O\lr chancos
19 winning and a lot of talk auo\lt whether or not we should
20 have even indicted the case.
Zt Mr. Govan. Reasons going to· the merits of the case,
12 the strength, .the weakness?
23 Mr. Bell. Weil, I would says reasons going more
24 the likelihood of obtaining a conviction becalHlc of the
ZI race of the victim, because of the popularity of the

135
"
defendants, a'nd those kinds of factors. It was not my im-
pression that all of these people ware all that well
acquainted with the merits of the case. It \"8.S a cane, as
say, that was prosecuted by the Civil Rights Division pri-
marily. We had backup support from, as r say, the two U.S.
Attorneys who wera in office, one,after the other at that
time, and I was glad to ~~y'that Mr. Sessions was one of the
assistants who wa's ~- and I COUld r,all upon him for advice,
I"hich ~Ias frequent because I wa:> out of town. 1 don I t know
if you have ever had to prosecute caRcs in that situation,
but you have to rely upon local people for their knowledge
of the rules of the court, for their knowledge of the jury,
for th:ir knOWledge of the personalities involved.

Mr. Gavan. I understand <Ill of tJ1at, having had to try
cases, but I would like to foeuson wh"t ,',1', :,cSl:lions'
responsibility was and how that differed with the willingness
of other assistants in that office to participate in the
case,
Mr. Bell. Well, you didn't quite ask that g,uestion
bafore, but what Mr. Sessions was willing to do was to sit
down and disouss with me in great· detail tactical questions
and other questions concerning the case. Some of the other
assistants were not quite that willing. I tended to be put
off, brushed aside. !, don't mean to imply that all of the
assistants were like that, but -~
"~'
136
"
Mr. Govan, rrow many llssistants were in the office
2 there?
Mr. Bell. As I remember, there were five or six.
• Mr. Govan, And what assistant was assigned primary
$ responsib~lity for this case?
• Mr. Bell. There were no assistants assigned primary

7 responsibili ty.
• Ur. Govan. So lir. Sessions' involvement in the caso
• 1n some sense entirely gratuitous?

10 Mr. Bell. No ww
II Mr. Govan. It wasn't a part of his
12 Nr. Bell. w_ it was not gratuitous in the sense that

13 asked for him.
14 1-1r. Govan. But h~ was not assigned responsibility?
IS Mr. Bell. As far as I know, he was not aSRigned/ no,
lS r-lr, Govan, So he ~las doinq sor.ll!!tiiinq aJ::.ove and beyonq-
17 the call of duty?
IS Nr. BElll, 'l'hat's correct.
t-jr, Govan. What happened in that c1ise? I-lhat was the

"
20 result?
21 Mr. Bell. The result of that case was an acquitt~l
22 and I suspect to no great surprise.
23 Mr. Bergquist. It was clearly a travesty of justice,
24 everybody in the department acknOWledges it.
2S Mr. Govan. A what justice, a travesty?

137
70
/1r. Bergquist. Yes. It should never have
nr. GOvan. am just curious abollt it. aM not even

aWare of the case.
was just curious what the reGult Was.
11r. Dergquist, The jury __
Mr. Bell. Well, in my view the jury should have found

'the defendants guilty.
Mr. Bergquist. Of course, you had a good prosecutor.
Mr. Bell. A good prosecutor .
.~lr. Bergquist. Dut even people \~ho observed the caSe,

i t was a simple case of local jury __
Mr. (~van. Have you ever worked with Mr. Figure~?
Mr, Bell. Yes, not on a case but I have consulted with

him about cases.
Hr. Govan. Have yoU ever tried or investigated a caSe

with him in any formal way?
Ml', Bell. have never tried a aase. or participate in
a 9rand jury with him, belt I have discuSSC'd on-goinq investi.-
gation;; with him on a number of occasions.
Mr. GOvan. Do you l~nO~l anything about Mr. Figureo I
interaction with Nr. Sessions on cases?
Mr. Bell. On cases, very li~tle. I know they must
worked together on a number of cases. It is a small
,:;office and- I -am sure they did, but I don't have any knowledge.
Mr. Govan. What was your involvement in the Donald

case?
138
!,Ir. Bell. Only peripheraL That was handled
2 by Dert Glenn and Darry Rowalski.
3 (Short recess)
• Mr. Govan. Approximately how many cases have you
•
'I
.,
worked on'with Mr. Sessions?
l~r. Bell. ~lo11, as I say, in this particular one,
7 is U.S. v. Purvis, I talked with him a lot. I didn't
8 directly with him on it. I have had occasion to talk
• him about maybe ten other matters that we hnvc inve$tigate~

1]
to over the course of years. I have not prosecuted a caso wit
;i
him or been in a qrand jury with him. Ii
" (I
Mr. Govan. Is it Tom Purvis?
~
1Z
Mr. nell. Yes. ,I

" ~.
14 Mr. Govan. He is the present sheriff?
:il
Ilr. Bell. li.:- may still be. As a matter of fact.
"
11 \~hen our indictment was handed down, think he made a
17 campaign ad o,ut of the fact.
11 Nr. Borgquist. JJe made a campaign ad out of the fact
19 that he ha~ been indicted.
'0 :Ir. Govan . .~.l\d he got reelected?
~lr. Bell. He got raelected.

"
u Mr. GOVan. During the time that
23 Mr. Sessions. have you ever heard him make 4 remark that~
ZA any way. shape or form you considered to bo insensitive 0
25 racial matters. even though the remark was said in.jestnt

139
DelL No, absC'lutal~' not.
GOvan. Did you ever hear him make any rQrnarks in

concerned racial iSsues?
Bell. No, have not.
Govan. I have nothing else.
l<lonOslti. OUring thase ten or eleven c",-::es that you
him about, was he oOoperative?

AbsOlutely. That is where I got my iMpres~
-thnt hE' waR interested in pursuing t" l3E! kindr: of CD,S~5"
I<lono~ki. What happened to those ten or eleven
Bell. On one or two of them he suggested somo

:tional investigation which we did. I don't believe that
of those ones that I am thinking of right now, at least
of any that actually C.,I'·' to trial, but
got the slightest inlpressicl/i t,lat he wanted to do any-
lesF; than a full investigation of 0,10:',. til'.'l C<:5~'i.

t'lr. r<1onoski. lind in fact he has all-lays supporta,l a
ipV~Dtigation of the cases that you dealt With?
Yes, at least aD far as I dealt wit~ him,
Klonosk1. I have nothing e13e.
GOVan. I havo noth1nq else.

at 4:31 p.M., the taking of all testimony
140
73
CER':'IFIC1\.TE or l107ARi' PUl3LIC
I, Stephen D. 1,liller, the officer before whom the

• foregOing testimony was taken, do hereby attest that the
, witnesses whose testimony appea.rs in the foregoing transcri

of proceedill9'S ~lOre dUly SWorn oy me; thi'lt I at,l
• or emplo~'ee of any ilttorney or counsel employed by the
7
part.ies hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested
• the outCOD~ of the action.
•
10
11
"
."
" 11y commission expires
"
17
"
"
zo
ZI
"
••
..
141
tqr"DENTON. We were surprised, Senator Biden, that Mr.
imade reference to public radio carrying many of his com-
hich he said he thought were going to be confidential, and
r""released at 7:40 a.m.
ot implying that you had anything to do with that, or
18e, but it is a characteristic of the Hill, it seems, that
:ike that happen, and I do ,not think it is entirely fair.
'qr,BIDEN. I share your concern in the fact that those com-
, ~r, the record, I am as surprised as you-but for the
e,fact that those comments occurred on radio 12 hours
eyoccurred here, could have done damage. Bllt frankly, it
·,to be the mechanism which triggered Mr. Hebert's will-
,) 'desire to come up here. So maybe for a change, some
• 'e from some bad in the sense of something, although it
'confidentilJ1, in that sense that it was classified or any-
lit I agree.
ll~siire the Chair that this Senator was as surprised as you
," d that to the best of my knowledge, my staff was not a
his. I did-our colleagues were aware of some of the things
, stated.
'ate, let us move on.
DENTON. I yield to you, Senator Biden, in questioning
ons.
, BIDEN. Thank you.
sions, if you will give me a moment here to collect my
"to go back if I can to the case relating to whether or not
ad an FBI investigation from going forward: (a) Did you;
ypu did, can you tell me what kind of case it was and why
,tided that it is best that the investigation not move for-
SSIONS. When I heard that yesterday, I believed there was
lof mil(up in that allegation. I called the FBI in Mobile
d to them. The agent tells me that he got an Air-Tel--
r BIDEN. An Air-Tel-an air telegram?
ONS (continuing]; I do not know what that is-that's what
calls Some sort of communication from Washington-and'
called for an investigation of a fraudulent document that
"in a file on Department of Justice stationery that indicated
reclearance had been given to a city, I believe, or a county,
'eact--
BIDEN. A preclearance in the voting rights--
IONS (continuing]. In the Voting Rights Section-when in
learance was ever given.
as amazed that any such thing as this was said.
,IDEN. I am sorry?
'~NS. That anything had been said that I had interrupt-
estigation. He assured me that the Air-Tel told him to
e investigation within 21 days and that that was done-
awed all the public officials in Conecuh County-and that
einvestigation, one man had died he could not be inter-
ut all the rest were. They,took el(emplars of a typewriter
;. it' was perhaps written on-all thetYl'ewriters in the
fice' were tested, and that the report indicates noconver-
142
sation with me and he indicates that he had no conversation'.
me, and that a copy of the report was immediately sent, accor
to the file, to the Civil Rights Division. '.
Senator BJDEN. I am a little confused, then. What do you ma
Mr. Hebert's testimony just a moment a g o ? ' .
Mr. SESSIONS. Right. I have been trying to think that thi
and I believe there is just a major misunderstanding on that
I believe that the report was done. and was sent up, and it
have been lost. And I may have at some point been inquire<;l\
to what my opinion was on it, and I would have given it.···
Senator ~JDEN. Well--
Mr. SESSIONS. But it does not indicate that from the file Ii
and the FBI always puts down the opinion of the U.S. attorney
case like that.
Senator BJDEN. Well, I-that is confusing. Can you hold Wj
second? [Conferring with s t a f f . ] '
My understanding is from the testimony and from the stat,
by Mr. Hebert that Mr. Hancock actually talked to you.
You do not remember talking to Mr. Hancock? •
Mr. SESSIONS. I remember that case being discussed, bees,!
told Mr. Hebert as we were discussing it, the only thing I
recall about the case is that I discovered later that there was 'I.
understanding. I never did contact the Civil Rights Divisio
apologize to them--
Senator BJDEN. Well, let me try to clear up the misunders.
ing. I would like to go to the testimony given by Mr. Hancock,"
He says, starting on page 11, his statement is: "The issuii'
seems to be on the floor was when we had requested an inv,
tion," in the county the name of which I cannot pronoul1'
dare not do damage to it again, "in C-o-n-e-c-u-h County "il
requested the FBI to do an investigation for us in that coun
had-the form of requesting those investigations is a memor,"
from the Civil Rights Division to the Director of the FBI requ .
the investigation. .
The issue involved was that the-we later found out that the requested.in
tieD had not been conducted, and when we inquired why we learned that the"
States Attorney had told the Bureau not to conduct the investigation..' 'l
Committee Investigator, Mr. GOVAN, If you recall, at what stage was the"
gation when the request went to the FBI for investigation?
Mr. HANCOCK. I am not sure what you mean by flrequest". The investigatio
just beginning because we were requesting the FBI to do a particular investig
GOVAN. Had a lawsuit actually been filed against the C o u n t y ? , ;
HANCOCK. I believe at that time-I am not sure whether-we have had-:I
been unable to piece all of this back together, and I have checked my records
do not have any records on it.
It could have been-we had a lawsuit-I am trying to think whether we
lawsuits-we did have two lawsuits against the County, as I recall now" 0
volves a matter under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, which requires pr,'
ance ...... and the other matter involved a lawsuit we filed concerning discrim
ry treatment that black voters receive when they come to the polls to vote-'
County. ' ':-".~
I have had some difficulty resurrecting whether the investigation at iss
the one lawsuit or the other. At times I thought it was one, and the other
thought it was the other.
GOVAN, Do you recall the purpose of the investigation?
.HANCOCK, No., Because J. am not able to piece it back together, I carino,
one of two purposes, to the best that I recall. On the one hand, it may.hli
143
information about the treatment of black voters receive when they vote
_'~County.
e other issue that it may have concerned was at one point in the Section 5 law-
;the County presented in court a letter that purported to grant Section 5 pre-
~ce to voting changes, and the letter was an obvious forgery signed by some-
o apartment stationery.
signed with the name of someone who was listed as Assistant Attorney
for Civil Rights, and the person had never been Assistant Attorney Gener-
a name we never heard of; it was a William Daley or something like that.
Ilaley.
e.knew-we a~e crack investigators-that it was not a true letter, and we
e Fm to try and determine who may have prepared the letter. So what I
.iig-it was one of those two matters, but I just do not know which one.
Did you discuss this matter with Mr. Sessions?
. I may have. I do not recall whether I discussed it with Mr. Sessions or
y have, In fact, I probably did. I know for a fact -that I discussed it with my
1'8 in the Department of Justice and that someone later discussed it with
.'ons.
n, without taking you through the next five pages, down to
On page 16.
. OVAN. I hate to be repetitious, but did I ask you did you speak about this
?
HANCOCK. Yes, and I think I said that I may have spoken to Mr. Sessions
'it at some point in the process. In fact, I recall that I spoke to Mr. Sessions
it and that he confirmed that he thought it was an investigation we should
nduct and told the Bureau not to conduct it.
M', Did he offer any reasons in support of his opinion that the investigation
.have been conducted? .
K. He did not agree with, and I do not know that I can give any more
that, I do not recall precisely what he told me. He did not think it was
stigation we should conduct. He may have thought that we were-I do not
hat he thought. He may have told me that we were just barking up the
tree. Those were not his words, but I do not know if he had knowledge of the
tuation involved.
,at two points here as he goes through refreshing his recol-
, he says for certain that he knows that he spoke to his su-
or, and that for certain someone later discussed it with you.
ter he said, "I am sure I did speak with Mr. Sessions."
.s that refresh your recollection at all? .
:·SESSIONS. Well, it really does not, in the sense that-I think
was a call about it. I do not think that I ordered an investiga-
ot to be done. If I did, it would have been on the basis of an
.ent coming to me. The agent said it did not happen who Con-
it, and he conducted the investigation and he reviewed the
, and the report indicated that. They were reading from it.
.. uld be that there might have been a real, genuine misunder-
ding on that case, and that the Department thought, and Mr.
cock and they may have really felt that I was intervening in a
that was not proper.
w, I think he called-I have a recollection that I was not clear
\1 talked to Mr. Hancock and did not correctly state to him
had happened. I really should have called him back later,
. I found out that there was a mixup. That is all I can remem·
o .never called him back to clarify it.
tor BIDEN. OK.
ESSIONS. Maybe the dates in the file would indicate that,
einvestigation was commenced.
.r BIDEN. Let me ask you again, so I am clear here-[con·
.,with staffJ-in the Perry County case, can you tell mea
144
little bit about Mr, Albert Turner? He was one of the defend!\',
right?
Mr, SESSIONS, Yes,
Senator BlDEN, Is he a well-known man in the community;"
a r e a ? '
Mr, SESSIONS, I had heard of him, but he was much more
known than I realized, He had never held office,
Albert Turner is a man of great convictions, He isa 4
fellow. He fights for what he believes in. He believed in the.c
that he was for. And it was my conclusion and belief-the
acted as they did, and I accept that-that the temptation ofcd
ing those ballots was just too much to turn them in, to vote"
his own slate. .
He marched across the Selma Bridge with Martin Luthet
There is film that you can see where he was near the fro!)
when the troopers moved into the crowd. He was there whe
few people in Perry County were allowed to vote prior
Voting Rights Act; probably less than 10 percent were allo
vote.
Mr. Chestnut described him best in closing argument, '
thought it was an extremely effective closing argument. H
that Albert Turner had fought for what he believed in; he h
been elected to office; he did not have anything, but he w
kind of man America needed, and that we needed people w
stand up and do what they believe in, and that sort of thing,'
. It was sort of the gadfly of the State argument that it
sary to have such people-I thought it was an effective arg1l
think it is accurate. .
Senator BIDEN, Let me ask you, you went through a ( '
ballots with us here-not all of them that you had, but a .
of them. Was Mr. Turner indicted on each of those coun
each of those ballots a separate count?
.Mr. SESSIONS, Each ballot was a separate count, and the'
ment that was filed named Turner in almost every····
course, he was involved in more than Hogue; there we
counts against Hogue than Turner-but he was charge .
Hogue counts as an aider and abettor, and Hogue was eM
the Turner counts as an aider and a b e t t o r . . . ; ( :
Senator BlDEN. But there were counts where he was ch
the principal rather than the aider and abettor?
Mr. SESSIONS: Yes.
Senator BlDEN. Now, was he convicted on any of those
Mr. SESSIONS. Dh, no. "
Senator BlDEN, How do you explain that, other than the,
cies of the situation that juries make mistakes? I mea!)
have a theory? You must have walked out and said ',,'p
from what you said here, you sound like you thought yd
pretty tight case, either-how do you explain it?
Mr. SESSIONS. I think the Government led with its strell
they led with the Shelton witnesses and a few more, .
A number of the witnesses after that were elderly; all'
them contradicted themselves and contradicted prior state
145
nator BiDEN. Did any of them contradict, what they have in
't file that you read to us-any of the things you read to us, was
.of that contradicted?
r. SESSIONS. Oh, no. Those were Shelton witnesses, and they
ified at trial absolutely consistent with those statements, I be·
e-there may have been some, but the thing about it not being
ged with their permission, that was true.
"e of the things I evaluated, Senator Biden, was the posture of
'case. I thought it was real significant that Albert Turner testi·
'that With regard to the Sheltons, that they had a meeting, and
tory was he did change the ballots--
',. ator BiDEN. I am sorry. Say that again, now.
,SESSIONS. He stated that he did change those ballots.
'ator BiDEN. Who said this?
SESSIONS. Albert Turner.
ator BlDEN. Yes.
ESSIONS. To the grand jury, which was read at trial, and he
ere was a meeting in the home of one of the Sheltons, and
I the Sheltons were called there, all six of them; that he was
Earl Ford, a deputy sheriff who was a real ally of Albert
llr, and Turner's wife was there. And they discussed it, and
,one of the Shelton's individually consented to the changes on
,allots and he changed some of them himself, he said. He said
p,p,,ened to have glue in the car to open the ballots and to
t\lem with after. '
one of the Sheltons contradicted that in their trial testimo·
fiy said ther had nothing against Albert Turner, but there
osuch meeting; they did not consent to a change in the bal·
,that sort of thing.
rosecutor, I think that is a good case right there. It would
obably gone better had it been those counts charged and
,"that, in about 4 days, instead of everything that happened.
tor BlDEN. Now, there were 700 absentee ballots, as I under·
540 collected by Turner and Hoag--
IONS. Yes.
BulEN" [continuing]. Seventy.five of the total 700 were in·
. 27 resulted in indictments, and none in conviction.
IONS. That is correct.
'BIDEN. Now, is this-you testified earlier, and my coun·
e that he thinks you are right, that in the shotgun case-
being shot up, the black policemen looking at a house in
borhood, and that night it gets shot up, plus the 'white
te agent gets threatening calls-to the extent that Mr.
lasked him, "Why didn't they move?" and he said, "Well,
think they had enough to move on, probably"-not that it
a pen, but sufficient evidence.
en you were testifying relating to that case in response
n from the chairman, Senator Thurmond, you pointed
the Justice Department has to make judgment calls based
eight and imJ?Ortance of the matter brought before it.
ESSIONS. That IS correct.
, 'rBIDEN. Now, is the issue of the allegation of a number of
ballots being tampered with and the numbers involved-
and 75 investigated-is that on its face, does that rise at
146
the level Qr'the kind of matter that the U.S. attorney's office,'
prosecute? Obviously, we want to stop all fraud. But I mea,!,
just trying to get a sense of when you weight those things, I
is that something that would--
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. Is that a case of great weight?
Mr. SESSIONS. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. We,
believe, 25 or so what appeared to be strong counts, stron~;
ments. The grand jury in that District had asked for an, q
agency to investigate, because-- . '"
Senator BIDEN. Well, let us speak of that a minute. The,
jury report,. the grand jury report you referred to, was a gra
report in the State of Alabama, a State grand jury as oppos
federally drawn grand jury, c o r r e c t ? ' ,
Senator BIDEN. And that grand jury-which I ask una
consent that the entire referenced report be put in the reco
Senator SPECTER [presiding]. Without objection, it will bern
part of the record.
Senator BIDEN [continuing]. That that grand jury said, "W
grand jury of Perry County, AL, in a period of 2 days have)
gated 24 Cases, returning 13 indictments and questioning,
_nesses, no-billed 5 cases, and continued 3 cases. We hereby'
that the Board Inspection Committee has inspected the],'o
the Perry County officials and have found them to be pro~e
corded in the office of the judge of probate, the Courthous.e'
tion Committee'" '" *," et cetera. .. <
It goes through, and it gets down and says, "This grand 'j
extensively and exhaustively investigated the voting sitq
Perry County. Our greatest concern is to assure the fair ,s,!
all people." You have read this before, but I want to reall
"At this point, we are convinced. that such an election"
denied the citizens of Perry County, both black and white.
mary problem appears to be with the tampering of the rigji
of black citizens in this county. ,",
"The problems are"-and I cannot read it; it is a :X;erq,
problems are" something "intimidation" -is it Hvoter.j.,
tion"? [Conferring with staff.] Anr-vay, the problem isth
machine. But, "The problems are' something "intimidatio
polls and abuse and interference with the absentee ballott',
ess. These problem areas lie within the grey and uncertai'l'
the law and are generally confined to those segments of oui'
which are aged, infirm and disabled. +
"We encourage vigorous prosecutions of all violatpr,j
voting laws and especially would request the presence of ,W
ance of an outside agency, preferably Federal, to monitor'"
tions and to ensure fairness and impartiality for all. "
"At this time, we see no reason to remain in _sessioll :'~
cetera. ',"
- [Document follows:]
147
GRAND JURY REPORT
HE HONORABLE EDGAR P. RUSSELL, JR •• JUDGE OF THE CIRCUIT COURT

PERRY COUNTY •. ALABAMA,
the Grand Jury of Perry'County, Alabama, in a period of two
~ave investigated ~cases. returned §indictments. quesHorad
Jet.ness!s. no billed .:s-cases and c~nt1nued..3.. cues,
report that the Bond Inspection Committee has inspected
of the Perry County Officials and have found them to be properly
in the Office of the Judge of Probate.
Courthouse: Inspection Committee hilS made il tour and inspection
followfng:
The entire building needs IS new paint job throughout.
There is a need for new chairs. desk and carpet in the
Tax Coll ector's Office.
There "is a need for some phster jrepa1lt work to be done
in the Ta~ Assessor's Offfce as well as the same repair
work in the Mapping Room.
Jail Inspection Committee has toured and inipected the Jail
hereby report that the Jail is in better shape than it has
r a.number 0'( years. There are some repairs needed which lire
is need for plaster repair.

<There should be replacement for all broken and missing
~window glass.
'First floor shower and toilet is in need of repair and

painting.
There is need for a light in the laundry room.
, Broken urinals in the cells need to be replaced •
.:ihere is a need for lights in the west hallway.
s Grand Jury has e~ttnsively and eXhau~ttvelY investigat~d the

i~ Perry County. Our greatest conc~rn 1s to assure a fair
all parties and all people •. At this point we are convinced
'an election ~s ~eing denied the _c1tize~s;Of .Perry County, both
'whih" The pr1mar.vproblem appears to'be with the tampering of
to vote of the black citizens of this county. The problems~are
timidation at the po'ls and abuse and interfarence with the absent~e
148
Il!11otifl9 proces.~. These problem areas Tie withfn:"gray and uncertain,

areas of the law and are generally confined to those se~ents
~Ihic.h are aged. ,infirrned, or disahlect. We. encouraga ~i90rclls
of all violations of the voting laws and especially would request the
presence and assistance of an outside agency, preferably federal.
our elect)ons and to ensure fairness and impartiality for all.
At this time ~e see no reason to remain in session, therefore, we
request that we be hereby adjourned.
Re,spectfully subrnltted on this the 20th day of Apnfl, 1983.
::::.:::~
149
J;Wtor BIDEN. Now, you took this, I assume, as a call to action
., at a later date, alleged improprieties were raised with your
;. is; that correct?
,SESSIONS. Senator Biden, of course they said it was "grey and
in areas of the law," and the people involved in the case
e' prosecuted were involved in that 1982 investigation, or at
,ere certainly called as witnesses and knew about the investi-
,§o I want to point that out. We did not prosecute on that
'~ver did a thorough investigation-but my feeling was that
lem would not continue; that the people would straighten
n up their act. And I saw no reason to prosecute after the
had not prosecuted, and we did not.
as later when we got a call again that I did not feel that I
ignore this call from this grand jury, a call from the district
ey, and--
tor BlDEN. Now, did the district attorney ask you?
ESSIONS. The district attorney called me, because he did
,,-although we were not close friel1ds at all at that time-
,me, with Reese Billingslea, a black elected official who
hat ballot, in his presence, and Mr. BiIlin15slea had called
Rights Division, and they had said for hIm to call me if
fraUd.
rElDEN. OK. What I am trying to deal with is there has
allegation made that you, with some sense of glee and an-
, went out and dealt with what is a petty case when in
dllld have ordinarily fallen to the county prosecutor. I am
';be fair to you to let you make your case as to why didn't
I am not saying you should have-I want to know why
ot say to the district attorney, "Hey, look, the grand jury
"itonce, although they said they wanted outside folks to
and they did not find reason to indict at that time. You
..e guy there. Why don't you move forward?"
IONS. The grand jury provides that answer. There were
two factions in Perry County. Some would suggest there
.and black faction. That is not true. There may be some
o not get me wrong-but it is clear that Billingslea and
tat least 50 percent, if not more than 50 percent, of the
,'; ,They are the ones that are upset because of this other
:lq)llt for a local district attorney and a local jury, who
the people involved, who may be on one factIOn or an-
, dIe a case like that. It is like the civil rights cases in
ere the Federal Government is an objective outside
'~BEi;. I am not arguing; I just want to make sure. So
int on this, and I will leave that issue-not the whole
ty thing, but that particular aspect of it-is that the
t attorney, county district attorney, in addition to call-
acquaint you WIth Mr. Billingslea's-was it Billings-
d:,ll. Billingslea, right.
jDEN [continuing]. Mr. Billingslea's accusations and
l.ddition to that, did he say to you, "Mr. Sessions, I
150
hope you handle this case. We do not want to handle it:'
handle it"? I mean, what did he say, beyond~- ... ,
Mr. SESSIONS. He indicated that the case was such that it ri
an outside force to investigate it, yes.
Senator BIDEN. OK. Now, Mr. Johnson
talking about, right?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. And Mr. Johnson sent you a letter on Sept
2, 1982, and then he sent you a letter on August 31, 1984, an,
_September 28, 1984. And I would like to read from one, if
Re voting fraud investigation-
This is from the September 2, 1982-
Re voting fraud investigation, Perry County, AL.
My office has received several complaints of irregularities in regard to th"
iog election on Tuesday, September 7. These complaints range from imptii
iog of absentee ballots to possible fraud in reidelitification. ..:1,
The most serious allegations concerning interference with absentee balf
elude fraudulent receipt and marking of ballots. The large number of abie,
lots requested by voters in this county. in excess of 800, with 7,857 registere
creates the possibility that fraudulent absentee ballots may make a si~ifi'
ferenee in the results of the election,
My staff· has looked into the allegation, and the reports indicate the J;1
extensive investigation in the voting process in Perry County, My ,offi~
have anywhere near the manpower to conduct such a.largescale probe. Ap
I feel it would be best that an independent agency from outside the counf
the probe so as to avoid any possible hint of favoritism or partiality. · . \ , ' i
Therefore, please consider this letter to be an official, urgent request for
ble assistance in conductin~ this investigation; I cannot overemphasize t
tance and the urgenCy of thIS request, for without the help of your agency,'
cannot actually investigate all the allegations and possible ramifications',
thorough investigation, I think the results of this election will cdnt~
showered in accusations and acrimony. .: 'it
My office staff has prepared reports specifying the evidence uncovereds
these reports will be made available upon request to aid your evaluation <>
ousness of this situation.
Please contact me with all possible- dispatch regarding this case.
the essence.
Very truly yours, Roy L. Johnson,
Essentially the same letter was sent in August 1984 an
ber 1984. . ..
Now again, for the record, why did you-if it was you "ll
it was sent to the voting fraud investigator-why did you rl
in 1982, but then moved in 1984? "
Mr. SESSIONS. In 1982, Mr. Johnson, I believe, told me tli
were problems involving two ballots, or a few ballots, that
tered that he had proof of, and there were other irregular'
I did not feel that those irregularities were such that' it'd.
a Federal investigation. He conducted one, and I respect
vestigation. They saw fit not to go forward, and Isai
thought also, sincerely, that you would not have that'·
the future after he had investigated and everybody had
quainted with t'he rules and the law of voting absentee..
In 1984, we had complaints from black officeholders. T
an election contest filed. Three of the four contestees we
They were the ones that were complaining. They were aT
the election was going to be stolen from them. They Were
151
ed about it: And I do not believe a U.S. attorney could refuse
estigate when the district attorney says his partiality is sub-
question t because he has got to run for office in the county,
lbert Turner would be an opponent of his, certainly, if he in-
ted him, or maybe he already was on the vote.
was transparent to me that it was appropriate for the Fed-
vernment to investigate.
tor BIDEN. Did you seek and/or receive the reports that
, erenced in these letters?
SIONS. I do not--
r BIDEN. For example, he says that, "My staff has pre-
"rel?orts specifyin/f, evidence Uncovered so far, and these
will be made avaIlable upon request to aid your evaluations
ciu receive those reports?
ESSIONS. I never evaluated them. I believe we received some
in our office after his grand jury in 1983, a good bit of
. I never evaluated those, and 1--
t,or BIDEN. What made you move forward, then?
¥SSIONS. We did not, in 1982.
Jor BIDEN. No; I know. In 1984, though. There were reports
o.
'. ESSIONS. In 1984, what happened was I believe the FBI
who was in Selma, a few miles from Marion, received those
s. I do not believe contemporaneously with that letter, he
ords to Mobile, which is 170 or so miles from there. It is
e.
* r BIDEN. Back to what the basis ofthis thing is. In the affi-
Johnson gets from Mr. Kinard, one of the candidates in
ion, the affidavit does not seem to say much. I may be
,ough. Let me read it, here.
29, 1984 at about 11 a.m., 1 was driving south on Clement Street in the
I AL, canvassing for my campaign,
meot Str,eet. I noticed the Perry Coun.ty Sheriff f'B:trol car assigned to
-y Earl Ford in the driveway. Leaning over the rIght front fender was
urner, a candidate for the election as tax assessor of Perry Count'!. In
e radiator and also leaning over was Albert Turner, president 0 the
nty Civic League. Leaning, over the left front fender was Chief Deputy
rl Ford. On the hood of the patrol car was a brown cardboard box, about 2
eet by 2 feet, filled and overflowing with mailing envelopes of the type
tee ballots are made of. They immediately dispersed .
.~ says where they dispersed to.
!fetring with my brother, Howard L. Kinard, principal of the West Side
,on campaign matters for a few minutes, I departed and observed
is pickup truck closely as I got into my car· • '.
'eluded that that is the kind of-here, you have now a
y investigation that did not come up with sufficient evi-
indict anybody in 1982. You have now, 2 years later, can-
tanding for election giving affidavits to you all about
or not you should move forward. But the affidavits do not
be very compelling. It seems to me the most compelling
have here is a district attorney who feels he is in a pinch
152
I mean, is this the evidence that you moved on-a bOlt'sit
a-- . _,:.,j
Mr. SESSIONS. No. I did not see-the affidavit that isfi

was not realiy given to me. That affidavit was not prep':r
knowledge, by Mr. Johnson. It was prepared by the lawyer
three black candidates who were filing an election contest.
Senator BIDEN. But Mr. Johnson told you he had these a
didn't he? ,;,.
Mr. SESSIONS. He told me that they were filing for an'
contest. I am not sure he mentioned they were attaching
to it or not. But what he told me on the phone was more t
He told me there was a systematic campaign to coliect bal.
change them, and suggested at one point a search warrant.
Senator BIDEN. I understand that. What I am trying to'
here is that if a county attorney from any county calied yo
said, "We have systematic fraud down here; you realir S
vestigate. And let me teli you what I think the fraud IS. It:
to absentee ballots, it relates to this, it relates to that." I'
sumed that the U.S. attorney's office would say, "Well, 1'1
you send me up some affidavits, some evidence, somethiri
tain your assertions that you want me to get into this, as
you want me to get into this?"
Mr. SESSIONS. Not necessarily, just to commence a very:
nary investigation, No. 1.
Senator BIDEN. OK.
Mr. SESSIONS. No.2, he is 170 miles awa¥; we are talk!
day or two before the election, and somethmg had to mov
it" ••
No.3, we did not do anything but realiy very low ke
served the post office. And let me teli you what rewlyco
an investigation. If the ballots had been opened,and'
peared to be no irregularities in them, an investigation"
gone no further. '
Senator BIDEN. Opened at what point?
Mr. SESSIONS. When the absentee baliot office opened
ed the baliots; there appeared to be some 35 or so that 'll',
cant changes as you have seen on this baliot, plain to
, Senator BIDEN. Out of 700?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. There were 75 that had some form 0
on them out of the 700. " .
And there seemed to be a pattern in these dramatic,',
from opponents to Turner candidates to Turner candi
though it was not certain, but it did definitely appear.
So, Mr. DeSanto was involved in that, I know, and every
cussed it and decided that every ballot that was changed;·
it was a Turner ballot or not, the voter would be intervie .
if they consented to the change, and 75 interviews were do
Senator BIDEN. OK. I think anybody who changes ab •.
violates the spirit and the letter of what we are all abo
country. ,')'
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, it is horrible to change somebody'sol
Senator BIDEN. But having said that, keep in mind my
here. You started off with this district attorney saying
widespread, significant corruption. "
153
ESSIONS. My assistant told me that in 1982, there was some
revidence of corruption and that we could possibly have
with a case in 1982.
'lIIDE':'. Now, this widespread, significant corruption nar-
, to, out of 700 ballots that were cast. 75 had some mark-
em, and 39-1 think that was the number-39 had more
marking, and 27. after interviewing 75 people, warrant-
her words, I am trying to get the magnitude of this.
IONS. I understand that. I do not consider that small at
ea person's ballot-one good instance of that is serious.
e 'and pick up your ballot. and you voted for one person,
k over here and change it and cast it in, that is horrible.
fiot just a pettl crime. To do that 25 times is a systematic
of great magnItude. I honestly believe no U.S. attorney
'hese circumstances could have declined to investigate.
tor BIDEN. OK. Now, let me get this. How many times since
ebeen the U.S. attorney has your office been contacted by
also whether they are elected officials or just citizens,
suggesting that they have been intimidated, or there has
aud. or there is something wrong in the electoral process?
ESSIONS. Well. there is hardly an, election that goes by that
"on day, the calls do not come in. But you can tell whether
e got an indice of some sort of reliability there or not, in
ase cases.
"one investigation that I frankly did not know about
talked to Mr. Govan, in which I believe about slE or eight
ere interviewed, and I am told they were white, in a rural
'ltild it allegedly involved some buying of votes, but it just
be established, and it did not go forward.
BIDEN. Why couldn't it be established? Obviously, this
be established. either, as it turned out.
et ,than whether it could or could not be established, what
'Teach the judgment in that case that it could not be es-
.'the vote buying'?
"aIONS. Senator 13iden. I think there are some pretty clear
and there are some grey areas. In the case that I am talk-
t that we had eight interviews of people. it was an anony-
, and they went out and interviewed everybody. In that
o not believe any U.S. attorney in the country would think
,IihY of prosecuting.
BIDEN. Look. all I am trying to get at here is I want to
easure of the man here. I want to figure out how you ap-
these things. And so I would like to-let us stipulate for the
this discussion that in fact your efforts in Perry County
tally warranted, that no U.S. attorney, black. white. with
,no experience to years of experience. would have done any-
'her than what you did. Just for the sake of this, let us stip-
that.
an example. or give me your rationale, why in the case
ht voting purchase allegations. that you reached a dif-
usion.
IoNs. First of all. in the purchase voting case, it was not
't there was any purchase. There were allegations of it,
never proven.
154
Senator BIDEN. Well, obviouslY'I't was not in this case, eif
mean, let us not talk about proo because obviously, you dl
prove in your case. 1 am prepared to stipulate you should.
brought it, but there was no proof, obviously. ,:',
Mr. SESSIONS. There was proof, Senator; it just did not satill
jury. ' . ' "
Senator BIDEN. O!q. ....
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Stavis argued brilliantly that a j\lry 1s'a
valve, that Mr. Turner was a hero, and a jury has a right
give. As an attorney and a prosecutor, I know you' knowth
cannot be certain what is going to happen with a jury, Ail:
lawyer, I know you.know that you can evaluate cases,an.,,'
are some cases you would not have any disagreement on. I
believe any attorney who evaluated, from my point of view,
have d i s a g r e e d . . " ,
Senator BIDEN. I am prepared to stipulate to that. But I th:
should act like lawyers and use the terms of art precisely. .
Mr. SESSIONS. All right. .,'
Senator BIDEN. I am used to saying when there is proof th,lI;
means that under our legal system, the vehicle for deter
whether or not there is proof has concurred with my jud
whether it be a judge or a j u r y . .
How many of these indictments were submitted to the J
mean, how many counts were submitted to the jury in the
County case?
Mr. SESSIONS. I believe eight counts were dismissed.
Senator BIDEN. Eight counts were dismissed.
Mr. SESSIONS. Out of the 29.
Senator BIDEN. So 21 counts--
Mr. SESSIONS. Do not hold me to that, but that is about rig
Senator BIOEN. But let us get back to the case of the"""
know nothing about; I am seriously inquiring-the case oH
purchasing allegations. How did you conclude-why did·
elude that there was no proof-that no one said there"
chase?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. They went out and interviewed th
nobody would say they were paid or anything. ';3
Senator BIDEN. That is all I am trying to find out. . "
Mr. SESSIONS. That is right. I am sorry. The Department
tice also on the case in 1984, Mr. DeSanto came down at on
read all the grand jury statements of the witnesses, he d!"
indictment. He told me he thought it was a very strong c
close case, a very strong case. .
Senator BIDEN. Now, with regard to the issue of whetlf"
you, the Federal Government, subpoenaed the ballots, a'l1'
you subpoenaed the ballots, can you refresh my recoll~c.
that, in the Perry County c a s e ? , : . ' , : ;
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. In the Perry County case, I cannot r~
date that we issued a subpoena. My assistant. was condu9
investigation on a daily basis. Apparently what happened
Johnson subpoenaed the ballots and then he allowed the'
the FBI access to those ballots, and they conducted the i
tion. "
155
. snator BIDEN. I am sorry. I apologize. fwas checking on some-
g, and I did not-would you repeat that?
r. SESSIONS. Yes. Apparently Mr. Johnson--
nator BIDEN. The county. attorney. .
.' SESSiONS [continuingj. The district attorney-I understand
he did issue a subpoena for the ballots. He got them; they COn-
.d aninvestigation--
tor BIDEN. On election day. "
,·SESSIONS. Yes. He got them after they had been counted
well, it may have been the next day.
litor BIDEN. Yes, OK. .
;,SESSIONS. He got· them and counted them, or he got them
nalyzed them. He made those available to the FBI when they
d. the pattern, and the FBI agent went over from Selma and
xamined the ballots, and plans were commenced to do an in·
ation. At some point, I asked, "Has a subpoena been issued
eballots?" and they said no, and I thought it was appropriate
ue one on behalf of the United States. And I am the one, I
; who said to m~ assistant, "I think you ought to issue a sub· 'I.
for the ballots. '
tor BIDEN. Do you know why a subpoena-you know, you I
. ed out the courthouse; you watched the ballots being mailed,

500 or so ballots being mailed; you had reason from that in
testimony to believe that there were improprieties. Why
't you issue a subpoena that day, or the next day, for the bal-
./SESSIONS. Well, the matter was under the direction of my as-
t, and I will take responsibility for my office. But that Was
· d of decision that you expect a lO-year assistant to make. I
· think,in defense of him, that there was any requirement to
subpoena at all. .
, tor BIDEN. No. What I am trying to get to here is the conti-
'J/of reasoning relating to how you got into and pursued the
,so I, can set it to rest in my mind at ieast.
have made the case that based on 1982 grand jury state-
based on the 1984 call from Mr. Johnson, based on the alle-
,by the two people standing for election, the two black men
ade the allegation, that you believed there was the prospect
ufficiently serious case here that warranted you making this
I inquiry and the inquiry, related to observing the post office
ight before the election. You have taken me up that far. And
the next thing it would seem to me that would have been
I am not arguing it should or should not have been done, it
at have to be done; I am not making that argument; I do not
enough to know, to be honest with you-but I am just curio
hy. Also in this mix is that Mr. Johnson did not want to
· this thing because of all the reasons you said-he might be
~g for election, he might get into the middle of it. But yet,
.on subpoenas the ballot. Obviously, Turner and everyone
ho were supposedly the reason why Johnson called you-he
riot want to have to handle it locally, which I understand, I
stand-but yet he goes and issues the subpoena. Now, obvi·
",tome that is like a great, big red flag saying, "Hey, Turner,
,e,'guy."
156
If Turner were going to engage in retribution in th~ next'
tion, it sure in heck would seem to me, if I were Johnson,
worried about that, that I would not issue the subpoena. I
want to be able to sit back here and say, "Hey, old buddy, y
a great hero, and I hate to see this happen to you, but that
U.S. attorney's office." .
Mr. SESSIONS. It was not so much that he was afraid of
knowing he was participatin~ in the investi~ation. It was th
effectiveness of the prosecutIOn is affected If you are pros.
somebody who is your political opponent and who is capable
ing votes to defeat you.
Senator BIDEN. Now let me ask you, was Turner a politic'
nent of Johnson?
Mr. SESSIONS. I assume so, since when he did not like som
as Billingslea and Kinard said, there is no question about it
Mr. Johnson had investigated him in 1982, and my impressio
that Mr. Johnson would not have been on Mr. Turner's slate,:
Senator BIDEN. OK. Now, as I am reconstructing this, you
guy named Johnson who investigates a powerful civic leade
not use that civic-that sounds-I mean, I want to be disp
ate-investigates a well-known political figure in his coun,t
investigation comes to naught. That well-known political'
knows the local county attorney, district attorney, has donel
there is apparently some-if there was not already-some p
animosity, even potentially bad blood. .
I mean, if you all are like we are in southern Delaware
part of my State, it would be likely that there would not be:':
love lost. .r
Now, 2 years later or thereabouts, this U.S. attorney.
effect, "I know something is going on down here. I was not
prove it myself 2 years ago. And the guy that I know tMt
ting this down is a guy that you know IS my political oPI'
have got two of his political opponents sitting here, telling:
he did something bad." Andyou say, "OK. That is enough
forward," without asking, "Well, give me some proof; give.
data." ,:;;
I mean, did you ask yourself when you sat there, is this·
local district attorney trying to nail his opponent, and
you to do it?
Mr. SESSIONS. We had examined evidence in 1982, aceo
my assistant, that indicated serious voter fraud. Youha\'
on district attorneys and what they tell you, also. A U.S.'
who just refuses to respond to the request-I had already
once to respond-really is not doing h i s J o b . . .1 <
We did tale just a preliminary action, and when. the b .
opened, there were what appeared to be patterns in theal
And only the ballots that were changed-the people whoa
had changes on them-were interviewed. If it were only 0
changes, or three or four changes, and the voter said, "It
with my permission," and those were elderly voters or
like that, I imagine that investigation would havee
there.
Senator BIDEN. Well, look, I guess I do not know eno
the case. All I know is that you make a convincing caset
157
asonto go forward, But ad'ury reached the conclusion that
was not any reason to fin anybody guilty for whatever the
,nale, And 1 do not have the opposing attorney here to make
se that your characterization is something less than airtight.
'd so 1 get into thinking to myself, knowing how these things
in other-maybe it does not happen in the South a lot, but
,kinds ofthings happen in the border States and in the North-
n States-I mean, I am not far from the Stillman's gym of
rican politics, Philadelphia, I mean, I understand politics a
bit, And let me read this characterization in the Advertiser,
tgomery, AL, February 11, 1985, by Alvin Benn, B-e-n-n, Ad-
ar staff writer,
says, IIJohnson, however, said the ballot numbering was done
rly, and within the law, He said that several Perry County
, ates who had opposed the group led by Turner asked him for
g safeguards' before the September 4 Democratic primary,"
is Johnson: " 'They were contesting the election in advance
se of violations they believed had been committed in tha past,
, n said, 'They came to my office for help.' "
j here you have a man who has a reputation for being one
r a guy like me-one of the heroes of the civil rights move-
, I remember hearing about him being the guy who was there
rtin Luther King's funeral and led the cortege, And he is the
ho went across the bridge and was in the front, et cetera,
here you have a guy who is obviously, among those of us
e4Jn the civil rights movement, a national figure, not just a
Igure', And a political opponent of his who tried once before
iled comes with two other opponents of his, whether they are
or white-in this case, they are black-and says, "This guy is
g the election from us."
J'have yet to hear, other than that assertion, what element
f you asked for to sustain why you anticipated in 1984 that
s going to be stolen, or might have been stolen, That is what
, ing to get to,
ESSIONS, Yes--
tor ElllEN, But you were not, and you did say, and you are
,this is an issue with you, as it would be-I mean, if you had
n the bridge at Selma-not that you should have been; you
ly were not around; you were probably too young to walk
nd I am not being smart when I say that-but if you had
the bri4ge at Selma, and you had never said anything in
therwise, like has been brought out here today, then people
pobably-you know, you would not be burdened with this,
SIONS, Right.
BIDEN. But you were not, and you did say, and you are
with it now, And so what I am trying to get to is the rna-
'i whether or not you in fact are wiiJing to take less asser-
proof because of a prejudicial view you have, Or whether or
in fact had sufficient proof, regardless of whether or not
have a prejudicial view.
'!understand what I am getting at?
ESSIONS. For example, Senator, we were told in 1982 that
dJna request for an absentee ballot, and the officials send
Ilbsentee ballot by mail, We were told that there were 100
158
or more applications for ballots, sent on which
forged.
We were told, and my understanding was, that therewerr'
least two colorable claims of alterations on ballots that Mr. J'
son sought an indictment on in 1982. In 1984, we were comin'
on the same--
Senator BIDEN. Let me stop you there. Mr. Johnson, a poli
opponent of Mr. Turner, says those things to you, goes to his
grand jury and does not get an jndictment. ' "0:
Now, my problem is you seem to believe a political oppo'
more than you believe a grand jury. , >:"1
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I am told that the grand jury split'
down the middle, almost, one vote difference.
Senator BIDEN. On what grounds, what b a s i s ? , .
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not know. I assume that they felt that'it'
not enough, or they-- _,'"
Senator BIDEN. No one told you it split down the middle onr
Did anybody ever tell Y O U - - j
Mr. SESSIONS. I understood that that was part of it; yes. S,
grand jury issued that report, though, and called on us to' in
gate, and we did not, because the situation was not serious en
We did h a v e - - ' .
Senator BIDEN. It was not serious enough then. So what.
what proof did you have that made it change to convince you
it was now serious enough, other than the assertion of a white
trict attorney who is feuding with a black political leader, and,
black opponents of that person saying that they expeG1;ed.th
tion to be stolen? " '
Mr. SESSIONS. I am getting tired.
Senator BIDEN. I do not blame you. So am 1.
Mr. SESSIONS. Let me explain it to you this way, and yow n
understand t h i s - - : '
Senator BIDEN. I want to understand.
Mr. SESSIONS. We did not present a case to the grandj
did not seek an indictment. All we did was observe the p
to see if anybody did bring the ballots, as they said their
tion was that night, and if an investigation were to be
ful-- ,
Senator BIDEN. Now, you found that an unusual occurr
by itself, the fact that they bring 500 ballots at one shot
them in the-that, all by itself, is unusual enough, is t
Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, certainly-not necessarily unusual ell
you had the prior 'problems in 1982. You had Mr. Kinard
mentabout torn up envelopes that he had seen, andyouh
gations by Mr. Billingslea that he had information that:-
were being altered. And so all we did was observe the
noted which ones were mailed by Turner and which 0
mailed by Hogue that night so they could be traced bac
ballots were observed. Of the 700 ballots, only 75 peoplew
viewed, and those--
Senator BIDEN. Well, that is only because only 75 ba
changed, r i g h t ? ! ' "
Mr. SESSIONS. Had changes, right. But they were pratt·
changes, wouldn't you say, Senator, as is shown on thatc
159
enator BIDEN. You know, 1 am not arguing that. I am just
. gto-~
• SESSIONS. And so from then on-so each step sort of led to
ther. And 1 do not believe that you could do otherwise.
, 0 else can investigate? It is either the district attorney or the
'Who, is better? The FBI? Who could have the most credibility
ecommunity? Who has the most manpower to handle it?
nator BIDEN. OK. Let me-and I will yield to my colleague
11 and come back to my questions-but let me just finish up
a couple things here for now.
~,Votmg Rights Act, the intrusive piece of legislation. You ex-
ed what you meant by intrusive. Do you think it is a good act?
.,U said Ilintrusive, but necessary," I thought.
",SESSIONS. I think it is absolutely necessary.
,at,or BIDEN. As it is now, you thmk it is necessary.
:, SESSIONS. So far as 1 know. I understand there is some dis-
about a clause or two in it about--
'!ltor BIDEN. Preclearance, it is called.
; SESSIONS. Well, no.
atar BIDEN. That is part of the problem-is it or isn't it?
'SESSIONS. Well, I think everybody pretty well accepts that,
gh preclearance-there are various degrees of what needs to
eared, and ll'0od people can differ. But the Voting Rights Act
[y enfranchIsed a disenfranchised SUbstantial minority.
ator BIDEN. Thanks. I will let my colleague ask some ques-
,*and then come back.
you.
~br HEFLIN. Mr. Sessions,we have mentioned Mr. Thomas
s, and I indicated that Mr. Figures worked in your office for
's: When he left, was there an unpleasant relationship be-
."u and Mr. Figures?
, SiONS. Let me explain it this way. Mr. Figures is a fine
. He' argues a case beautifully. He prepares his cases thor-
ito a fault, perhaps. And he does a beautiful job of handling
'ases. And I respected that. He is meticulous about his work,
'handled a number of different cases in the office.
not an easy person to work with, in all honesty. One of the
hat came up was these cases that the FBI had been talking
attorneys about, civil rights cases. And that caused him
"ot think Mr. Figures ever knew that 1 talked ta the FBI
't think I told him I had taken care of it. But I specifically
to the FBI agents who normally handle civil rights Cases
d them never in the future to present them to anyone but
had promised him that, and I meant to see to that. I went to
I supervisor and told him that. But I think that was some-
reo
\Oered all communications with the office after he left.
,the office would try to speak and so forth. But I was sur-
hen he quit. We were up in Selma, trying the case, when I
d he was quitting, and it was quite a shock to me.
r HEFLIN. Well, as I understand it, there is, in the ope,..
,the U.S. attorney's office, a procedure by which, when a
t is being investigated it will often be turned over to an
160
assistant U.S. attorney such as Mr. Figures. And there is apr"
by which the U.S. attorney's office can make a recommendati.
the Justice Department that they decline to pursue a caS
they generally forward that recommendation to the Justice
ment for final action.
It has come to my attention that you have remark .',
member of your staff-and I assume this is Mr. FigUI'
might be wrong-that you wish that you could decline
rights criminal cases. Do you recall ever making that state
Mr. Figures-or to any member of your staff?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. And in fact, while I have disagr
really, not that much disagreed-I probed hard and expre
givings about some of the vote dilution cases that the Depiir
has filed and asked my signature, and I believe I have signe4
one. That is my duty to be sure of the pleading before I signS
But as to criminal civil rights, I feel pretty strongly abqu£.
feel very strongly about that. As a matter of fact, I spoke 'j;l),l
of police association that was meeting in Mobile, the State c
police, and I told them in almost these exact words, I said,."
going to continue our investigations of civil rights. We'"
work with police, but do not think there is going to be a ch
that." And I called on them, and I pointed out to them-
member saying this-it was just 20 years ago that blacks .
enfranchised all over this country down here. They ha
bused by police, as you well know. They do not necessat
the police to investigate themselves. And they have a righ
is proper that the FBI will be called on and respond to th
tigations, and that will happen and continue to happen.
Senator HEFLIN. As I understand it, there are stateme
will probably be brought up by other witnesses, and my p~
to give you an opportunity to respond to them; at least the.
ny lays a predicate for an issue for the committee to coneide
on an occasion when there was a recommendation to pursuE3
which you wanted to decline or which you did not want to.
you are quoted as having said, "You must think this is Ne"".
This is Alabama." "
Did >,ou make such a statement, and if so, do you hava"a
planatIOn? . c,
Mr. SESSIONS. At first-well, I think that I may have saic;!·
ragard to evaluation of a case that I Mr. Figures hadi
Sammy Murray, and then he came to me and asked that it.
missed, and we were discussing the jury appeal of it, and
concerned about some of the jury appeal. I may have made,
did not really think anything significant about that comment!
Senator HEFLIN. Who is Sammy Murray? "
Mr. SESSIONS. This was an individual with the Corps of
neers. Mr. Murray had, unbeknownst to Mr. Figures or me,
ally, I never knew the case was even in the office; it was brou
by an FBI agent a few days before a grand jury. And Mr.
as he has a right to do and as I encouraged, presented that
few days later to the grand jury. I signed the indictment with!
dence that it was an OK case. '
I say it happened that fast. That is my general recollectio,
161
r that, it was discovered that Mr. Murray had been in litiga-
,·th the Corps of Engineers over his personnel situation. Ap-
, he had been ordered to move from near Demopolis to a
Mississippi with the Corps of Engineers. He moved over
"' dfiled a claim for the moving of all his furniture, $2,000 or
'~hd that claim went in to the Corps of Engineers manage·
d their inspectors or whatever found that he did not move
iture, that he never moved, because he had his transfer on
,apparently. So that was false claim. It appeared to me on
, of it to be a clear false claim.
,ne of us knew that at the time. Later, his lawyer called and
his is a vendetta against Mr. Murray." He said that, "At
, you ought to dismiss this case," because Mr. Murray was
someone at the Corps of Engineers that if he did not go on
binit his claim for furniture, he could not file later, if he was
wait too long. So that is why he was forced into filing that
igures said based on that, and the fact that the Merit Sys-
tection Board had criticized the corps for their handling of
rray that he wanted to dismiss the case.
iscussed it. I suggested that Mr. Murray be inquired of as to
the corps told him to go ahead and file the claim, and if
true, we would dismiss immediately. But I was not in-
o dismiss because he had been wrongfully transferred.
or HEFLIN. I understand that on approximately four occa-
ou turned over to Mr. Figures records of investigation and
'r. Figures to recommend a declination, and when Mr. Fig-
hcluded that the cases warranted reinvestigation, you as-
the cases to another attorney, who then recommended de-
the cases;, that the files were forwarded by you, Mr. Ses-
", the ,Justice Department, with a memorandum describing
e ,conclusion and the recommendation of the second attar-
dthat in a nuinber of instances, the Justice Department re-
by asking for an additional investigation and alleged that
Justice ultimately accepted the recommendation to de-
es~ cases, it apparently acted without the knowledge of the
.,fecommendation to the contrary, which was made by Mr.
, Mr. Figures' recommendation have been forwarded to the
ent of Justice, and if so, why wasn't it?
ESSIONS. Senator Heflin, that matter really, I think, is com-
wrong. First of all, let me say that our office, we have an
oar. Agents come in and talk to lawyers all the time. And in
,Cases that.I found that have been handled-and I believe
,.' all of them in 1973, 1974 and 1975-by Mr. Figures, that
ase that came in, I assigned to him. Occasionally an agent
'come down and talk to another lawyer in the office about a
':And one of the reasons to talk is he thinks he has done
'investigation at that stage, and he is asking for advice.
f the reports say, instead of declining, they say, "The assist·
,S. attorney recommends no further investigation at this
,\,g~cause the report has not come in at that time; the attor·
gust talking to the agent.
162
Then, if the assistant says no further investigation, the"
puts the evidence together m a report; a copy comes to my 0
and a copy goes to the Department of Justice, Civil Rights DiVis
in Washington, who has the final say-so on it.
When that report would come acrosS my desk, I assigned t
all to Mr. Figures, except one which involved a nut that I kneW
assistant in the office already knew about. So I just assigned'(
one to him, and it was not a serious case at all. '
The problem we had on those cases is that-Mr. Figure~;,
have read something into it as sinister, but he would be highf'
taken in that. ,When that report would come in, I would send
him even though another lawyer in the office had issued a p'rel
nary opinion. And when he questioned me about it, I said, 'I
you to evaluate it and give your opinion. You can ask for an
tional investigation. You can talk to the Department of Just!
I do not believe that Mr. Figures would say I ordered any
that he handled to be dismissed or not proceeded with. I h
never rejected a request that he return an indictment in a cas
may have said, "I do not know that you need any more investi
tion in a matter," but I do not believe I really did that. "
I told him one time, "Sure, the FBI gets tired, and they do:
want you sometimes to call up ask for more and say, 'Look, I "
done all this investigation, and now you want me to interview
or six more witnesses,''' I told him, "You make them work.
have them do whatever you want to do."
Senator HEFLIN. I understand, too, that we have heard
thing about one criminal civil rights case which was succ
prosecuted involving the lynching of a young black man name
chael Donald by a group of Ku Klux Klan members. ';'.
This case was handled by Mr. Figures, Mr. Figures, as I U'
stand it, has indicated that Mr. Sessions repeatedly urged Mi
ures to drop the case, and that you only supported the inv'"
tion when Mr. Figures refused to agree to discontinue iL
true, or not true? .'," ',j
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir; that is not true, That case W!l$
office, and the murder had taken place maybe 5 months
became U.S. attorney. The State district attorney had in(jic
wrong people in the case and had to dismiss his case, and 0
at some point came to a point where nobody really knew
do,
Mr. Figures definitely did not wa!'t to ~ee th~ investigatj
He asked the FBI to go out and remterYlew WItnesses, and'
curred in that, or I was aware of it, and they were reirite"'"
That came back, and-I remember distinctly saying, "Wi!
Who did this murder, and we do not have proof noW, but We
go do something about it," ' ,'"
Mr, Kowalski and Mr. Glenn came down from the CiVi
Division, and we had a conference and discussed all the"
tives. And I am ,the one that said, as I recall, "The onlybtb:
native now is to have a grand jury investigation"-subpoen
bOdy that knows anything about the case, klansmen who
meetings where it may have been discussed, and go foward \Vi
I told them, you can have the special grand jury for that pur
and we will set up any time that can possibly be arranged. ,'"
163
nd that is when Mr. Kowalski and Mr. Glenn and Mr. Figures
ducted a brilliant investigation. They took a case that I do not
k any of us thought we could brin\l'-with any real confidence,
r'U.ition, and turned it into a convictIOn.
, ,'U, say Mr. Figures indicated to me that Mr. Farve, who was
terim U.S. attorney before I became U.S. attorney, had indi-
that he thought the case was at a dead standstill and had to
osed out, or something be done about it.
ever told him to close it out.
ator HEFLIN. There have been some charges that in Conecuh
ly, the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice di-
d the Mobile office to investigate a complaint that black voters
been harassed in Conecuh County and used internal Justice
Srtment procedures which do not require the concurrence or
consultation with the local U.S. attorney. The FBI acts as an
stigative arm of the Civil Rights DiviSIOn. And it is aUeged
when you learned about the proposed investigation, you coun-
manded the Civil Rights Division's order without notifying that
.sion of your action. It is further aUeged that when the Civil
hts Division subsequently realized that no investigation had
n conducted and learned of your action, your aUeged action
,that you had countermanded the investigation, you resisted
'tial request that you cease interfering with that investigation
you w,ere advised by a high-ranking Justice Department offi-
hat the U.S. attorney could not legaUy countermand Depart-
t orders at that time. Do you care to comment on any aspect of
",allegations?
,SESSIONS. Yes, sir. I have given my answer to that previous-
"e best that I could tell when Mr. Biden read the transcript of
ivil.rights attorney who said that, it was focused on a matter
'ling a forged letter on Department of Justice stationery, au-
'ng a preclearance--
stor HEFLIN. Well, if yOU have answered it, I do not want you
'eat. I just missed that. I may have been out of the hearing
hen that was asked. I just want to covei' all of the issues
aVe been raised.
SESSIONS. I would be glad to look into that further, but lam
'convinced that when we find what happened-I believe that
ivil Rights Division believed that, but I think that was incor-
imd I think the record will show that. I think they were in
ith in believing that.
tor HEFLIN. I will turn it back over to you, Senator Biden,
do not want to duplicate some of the things that you may
,ready covered.
tor BIDEN. No. Go ahead. That is the only thing you have
far. Keep goin!!.
HEFLIN. There IS a Dallas County issue..;..;
SSIONS. Judge Heflin, on that question, I think there is a
on. It is possible that I would have said, "Don't proceed on
e"-I mean, not proceed-that I indicated it did not require
er investigation or something, although I am told the report
not indicate I had anything to do with the Conecuh County
But I do not believe that I would have stopped an investiga-
I had only been in a couple of months, and I may not have
164
known what the policies were. Eventually,
oped.
Senator HEFUN. Well, there is another allegation that
Rights Division filed a civil complaint, that normally tli
the local U.S. attorney appears on the complaint, that th,
torney signs the pleadings along with the attorneys in W
The U.S. attorney's role is generally pro forma; and the c
dinarily initiated, controlled, and litigated by the Divisio
Rights of the Department of Justice's attorneys. The Divis!
neys were sent to Mr. Sessions for routine signature ofll'c
to be filed in a case challenging an at·large election sch~
cially discriminatory. It is alleged that Mr. Sessions refus.
the complaint. .,;
Do you wish to comment on that allegation? ..
Mr. SESSIONS. Does it cite which county?
Senator HEFUN. Dallas County.
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Hebert and I talked about that. He
was his recollection that that case was filed before I bec
attorney. Perhaps someone could have seen Mr. Farve's n .
and after I became U.S. attorney, he was an assistant. But tli,
what Hebert told me. I dQ not recall ever refusing to sign "
plaint, although as I say, it is scarey sometimes when you'
complaint, and you are suing everybody in a county gove -.
and you do need to inquire of the lawyer who is asking yoU'
it, the basis for the lawsuit. Oi
Senator HEFUN. On the Perry County issue, one of;th
tions against you is that was brought to your attention.
fraud on the part of whites-and that there was a selected
tion only against blacks, and that there was no investiga
prosecution of the whites. ··.. 1.
Would you care to comment on t h a t ? : .
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; I would challenge that statement.
dence was presented to us at that time of fraud by whites,,!\
anything credible, and I would further ~te that at the;
hearing, I believe Mr. Hank Sanders, who was a law partnat'
flrm that defended the case, stated in his testimony that..
never asked for investigations in the black belt. Our offlcec"
ly was never given any formal request for such an investig
And I called the FBI when that statement was made in the;
and they assured me that they had no indices that show cc. .
against whites and I do not believe that happened. ""
Now, during the trial, there was continual drumbeat, and
very effective in the media, to suggest that this was true,
davits were filed under seal that purportedly indicated tha
had been taking place by other people, I am not sure if tli
whites, in Perry County.
And we filed and tried to get the matters from under
those documents have not been produced. .
Mr. Chestnut, subsequent to the trial, has stated he has t
formation. I personally requested the supervisor of the FBI
to him about that, and he said he would send the materill1•.
am told that it has not been r e c e i v e d . - 1
165
l' so; I think it would be matters that involved technicali-
r than actual fraud, which is the primary focus of this
,"i!ctual changing of a ballot without permission.
r BIDEN. Will the Senator yield for a moment?
r,HEFLIN. Yes. Go ahead.
tBIDEN. Mr. Sessions, you have been here a long time. I
.shave more questions, and so does my colleague from Ala-
ut would you like a cup of coffee or would you like some-
drink, or would you like to take a break?
,SSIONS. A Coke or coffee might pick me up a little bit. I am
red.
BIDEN. Or would you like to take a short break?
SIONS. A break would be great.
BIDEN. All right. Let us break for the next 7 minutes or
,r~cess.]
f BniEN. Let us bring the hearing back to order. The hear·
orne to order.
e had a little session there, and Mr. Sessions has been sit·
lhat table now for almost 6 straight hours. I for one have
,ed the bulk of the areas that I wish to cover. The Senator
:A1abama, similarly so, although to use the Senator from Ala·
,'s phrase, we are just sort of laying a predicate here for the
upon which to have knowledge of whether we believe or dis·
the witnesses who will be coming up on Wednesday and
rtiona.
ve We should end for the day and make a judgment after
tiesses whom we had hoped would testify today, when they
Wednesday, make a judgment after those hearings, in con-
n with the chairman of the committee and the majority of
ilnittee as to whether or not we would ask Mr. Sessions to
ck'again at all before we vote on his nomination.
'u have anything to add to that, Senator Heflin?
tor HEFUN. The only question in my mind now is that since
bert testified and came, I believe that the other witnesses
ave given depositions should appear in person. I do not know
er that could be arranged. That is Mr. Hancock, Mr. Bell,
r. Glenn, and any others who have given depositions. It may
t the evidence is sufficient; I do not know, but--
tor BIDEN. I do not disagree with that. I think that is a
i)fHEFUN. Because it may be that you have the issue of the
ment of Justice, and there might be questions of subpoenas
executive branch-however, I do not want to get into--
ator BIDEN. Who subpoenas whom.
'19r HEFLIN. But if it can be w9rked out, Duke, since Mr.
.. came on his own, it may well be that some of the others
want to come up.
"-SHORT. Yes, sir; we can check it.
tot BlllEN. I think that is a matter we can check, and why
we~this was not designed, Mr. Sessions, to avoid buying you
". I want to make thal clear.
,'SEssIONS. Somebody did.
166
Senator BIDEN. You got your Coke, an>.'Way; you havegot:J
Cokes, now. You have one from the minorIty and one from the '.
jority. '
Mr. SESSIONS. Would you like one? You should be tired, too.
Senator BIDEN. No. I guess I should not kid at this point. Ai(
have observed, kidding can get you in trouble. '"
Let me sug¥est th~n that we adjourn for the evening. We wilt'
commence thIS hearIng on Wednesday the 19th, and subsequ¢il
that, we will make a judgment as to whether or not we ask y
come back. "
I thank you-is there an;Ything you would like to say befo'
close? You have sat here thIS long. ,'"
Mr. SESSIONS. I would like to see the transcripts of the De"
ment of Justice statements that have been quoted. '
Senator BIDEN. We will make available to you anything and e'
erything that we have, and if there is anything that we have ove
looked-I beg your pardon, Senator Denton. I did not know yo
were here. . .,~):
Senator HEFLIN. There might be some witnesses who could,"
relatively short statements. I see Dr. Gilliard, who is a dentist;
a member of the board of education in Mobile County, herei:
not know what his testimony may be. And Elaine Jones has;'
cated that Dr. Gilliard has some problems about returning. I d,
mind, if there are some relatively short statements that cou
disposed of--
Senator BIDEN. Well, let me suggest-and I would like very,
to accommodate the witnesses who have waited so long. Pl\
ly those who have difficulty coming back. But to be fair
and I know that the Senator from Alabama wishes to be
attempting not to be-but I 1'1ade the representation t
leagues on both sides that there would not be any witneil$
I would not like to see happen is a witness testify, for or
and I assume, although I am beinli' presumptuous, but I, '
is against the nomination that thIS witness would be te
and not have those on the other side of the issue have a
cross-examine that witness. And to that extent, that is ~lj
why I would reluctantly-and it is not my prerogative to, .d
I for one think it would be better not to do it. We will try:
out a way to maybe help get rou back. I understand tha~'
gestion made by Senator HeflIn was a courtesy that I lUri"
other Senator from Alabama would like to accommodate, "
think we will both get into, as they say on the east si
mington, DE, "We will be in a world of hurt," if we let t
without people having a chance to cross-examine. '
So I think we should just end it here.
Senator DENroN [presiding]. Well, I believe that my.
league from Alabama deserves the information that we,
announced, Senator Heflin, an agreement between the-',"
Senator HEFLIN. I did not know about that. '"
Senator DENTON [continuingJ. I know you did not, sir;.,t
I mention this-that we let WItnesses go back home,s\i~j
announcement previouslr made; agreed to by our sid,e' '
gestion of the minority SIde, that we reconvene on Wf
a.m. '
=
167
,But that was not my decision; it was a previously announced de-
ion.
nator J3JDEN. It is really my making, I admit. What I just do
want to do is get into a situation where any of my colleagues
able to say, "Hey, Joe, you brought up a hostile witness, and I
not get a chance to cross-examine that witness."
think fair is fair, and we should just let it move on to Wednes-
nator DENTON. I think my colleagues would agree that this has
a long hearing. Six hours is unprecedented in my time here. I
reciate the objectivity which has been shown, and I think we all
. that Mr. Sessions has shown considerable endurance, persever-
e, and patience in this, and I want to express the regret of the
'. ire committee to those witnesses who did come today. There was
o plot to deny anyone the opportunity to testify. It is inconvenient
you, and we apologize for that.
o Mr. Sessions, you are prepared to come back-you are fin-
. ; OK. You are finished, subject to future discussion and decl-
which the chairman of the committee wi!! announce. And the
r witnesses will be back at 10 a.m. on Wednesday, in accord-
with the previous agreement.
's hearing stands adjourned.
reupon, at 8:08 p.m., the committee was adjourned, to recon-
ednesday, March 19, 1986, at 10 a.m.]
l\1INATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III,
o BE U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTH·
:aN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

U.S. SENATE,
Washington, DC.
'Ii committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in room
26, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jeremiah Denton
g chairman) presiding.
present: Senators Specter, East, Biden, Kennedy, Heflin,
imCln.
f present: Duke Short, chief investigator; Frank Klonoski~ in·
gator: Joel Lisker, counsel; and Cindy LeBow, minority cnief
I.
'ator DENTON. The hearing, will come to order.
recognize the presence of our distinguished colleague from
rna, our senior colleague, Senator Heflin. We are hoping that
;Senators will appear shortly.
ve an opening statement. If not many Senators show, we are
th what they 'are going to read in the press or see on televi·
, their sOurces of information. The transcript they will not
.\ViII probably not even be ready by the time we have the
d; with reliance upon the basic honesty of journalism, I
t that this is the first opportunity to present witnesses \Vho
'~Perry County. the first opportunity to present a recanta-
evidence submitted against Mr. Sessions by two U.S. Depart-
fJustice attorneys, one, Mr. Hebert, one, Mr. Hancock, by
ion.
Ie,," I
these recantations are significant. believe the wit.
'from Alabama today, black and white, Democrat and Rel'ub·
r and against Mr. Sessions are the key to justice in Mr. Ses-
se.
, of the sworn testimony we heard on March 13 in this very
!from a Justice Department witness was false and he has
'~sued his recantation.
.. d... ·a deposition which was placed in the .record has, also
anted and we will hear from that witness in, person, Mr.
ncack, this morning. .,
int is that the dialog and deeds attributed to Mr. Jeff Ses-
re attested to here in person in sworn testimony by Mr.
(169)
170
Hebert and a sworn deposition by another attorney who will '
here today, and it turns out that that to which they attested
not correct. Certainly, what is remaining after these two reca
tions, namely memories of one of the two about what Mr. Sessi
said in off the cuff and private conversations, would fall into <1,0
and there will be testimony today which will show you justdi
much doubt should exist with respect to that kind of conversa,
that was recounted. ",.;
We heard the testimony of J. Gerald Hebert, a senior trial at
ney of the Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, here
March 13, 1986. Mr. Hebert had been interviewed on March 12
investigators of the full committee, and the particular question
p,oint, is a question raised by the minority investigator, Mr. Gov '
'Do you know whether he's"-and that is Sessions-"do you 1m
whether he has failed to cooperate or has interfered in cases
other assistants in the Justice Department?" Mr. Hebert rep!'
"Well, I only know what happened with our Conecuh Countyc
but Paul Hancock is in a better position to talk about that th,
am." Mr. Hebert went on to say during this interview that P
that is Hancock-"Paul and I had talked '!bout it and hea
both have a very fuzzr recollection about Conecuh County. It
Paul's case primarily.'
Now, what we are referring to is their allegation that Mr,,'
sions interfered with the Conecuh County case, which was p
the record and part of that which has indicted, in some newspa
and in some minds, Mr. Sessions. .
Paul Hancock told Mr. Govan, the minority investigat%,
March 12, also under oath, "I mean I'm fairly confident that,
investigation was not conducted at Mr. Sessions' request. J,,9
say with as much confidence that the FBI told me that or m
Jeff Sessions told me that." ",;
He went on to say that, "He may have spoken to Mr. S~~~
about it at some point in the process." He goes on, "In fact,. ui~
that I spoke to Mr. Sessions about it and he confirmed tliii
thought that it was an investigation we should not condu,c~'
told the Bureau not to conduct it." , , .;
He went on to reconstruct a whole dialog with Mr. Sessions.
Hancock went on to reconstruct a whole dialog with Mr.~f·
on what was characterized as Mr. Sessions' blocking of the
cuh County civil rights investigation.
Ladies and gentlemen, after these depositions were give"
used by some of my Democratic colleagues against Mr. Sessi
a very damaging manner, Mr. Hebert testified that Mr. S,
had interfered wi,th the Conecuh County investigation. He ,top'
structed a conver~ation with Mr. Sessions on that subject. ,,'
The facts are that these conversations never took place a
with Mr: Sessions. On March 17, 1986, Mr. Hancock llti4
Hebert recanted those portions of their del?ositions on the
interference of the Conecuh County investigation by Mr.
and in'fact checked Department of Justice records which,
nately they did not refer to prior to their depositions. Th
say now tha~ the case did not involve Conecuh County but
County, and Jeff Sessions did not attempt to block the FBI iii
gation but in fact it was his predecessor in office, a Carter ad
171
"appointee. So they had the wrong county and they had the
an. None of that was permitted to emerge during the last
'g. They did not even refer, when they made their allegations
~',him, to their own records.
ar, Senator Heflin and ladies and gentlemen, a lot of what
rd Jeff Sessions accused of saying last Thursday, Mr. Ses-
4anied at the time or said he could not recall saying. Every
lof his that I have known, even his enemies say that he is
bly honest, he will not say that he did not say something
;he is sure he did not say something. And the people who
een accusing him of saying things or saying things he does
'member or things that he absolutely denies having said in
ntext in which they have reported that he has said them.
the newspapers by and large on the first burst after the last
it did not treat Mr. Sessions fairly and simply went on to
the statements that he was accused of having made as if
'ere fact. But on the second burst, at least in the Washington
e editorial and the second article written by the gentleman,
think was extremely inaccurate in his first reporting, Mr.
d Kurtz, who might be here today, wrote articles which I
't were much more fair, but by that time Mr. Sessions had
,in the minds of his colleagues and in the minds of those who
tknow anything about him. He has not fallen in the minds of
"who know him in the southern district of Alabama, however.
'deluge of telegrams from Republicans and Democrats, blacks
hites, from there and from Perry County, it has been over-
·M.
ease let us try to be fair in dealing with Mr. Sessions. I have
with Senator Kennedy. I do not think he would mind if I
'n' this. He has said that he has made clear that he did not
re have reservations about Mr. Sessions' having called the
prosecution in Perry County. He said no, he had to do that.
said, I am still very concerned about the remarks that he
"attributed to him by the civil rights attorneys from the Jus-
partment.
'ave alreadY dealt with one of those long stories. Let us deal
e others. On the NAACP/ACLU being un-American, and
he has been quoted in the papers as having said flatly, I
him repeatedly say that he did not say it in that context, he
'lit if a man in the civil rights activist field, when some of
et involved in international affairs, that some people might
e that what they are doing is counterproductive to them and
fthe things they are saying might be un-American.
j if you want to take a poll in the United States and find out
lIny people believe that about certain individuals, it might

't'Mr. Sessions is not so wild in that, but he never said he
,t that the NAACP or the ACLU were flatly un-American or
unist inspired, yet he has been convicted of it in the media of
d.'
e -all know, the human memory is frail and, as we have ai-
een with the Conecuh County incident, can be severely
when conversations which never took place are reported by
i they are wrong on the counties and they are wrong on
172
What Mr. Sessions said is that when such groups go outsi
area of civil rights issues-I say this again-for racial refo
ti"ities and involve themselves in a foreign !lffairs contr,Q,
there might be a perception by some that the positions they,.
cate are un-AmerICan. He said that. That is a flat fact. H.e
said that he considered the NAACP un-American. Indeed, f
room to my ears he said they were largely responsible for til
rights gains made in the South, and he and this Senator~
said from so many podiums that the biggest thing about the
is that it is now able to draw upon its full most precious
resources, its human resources, namely the blllCk people Y\\.'
put down, delegated to the backs of buses, unable to get eq
cation opportunity or job opportunity. That has improy~d
point where the South is now producing goods and serviC
the best work ethic reported by two national surveys. The'
Alabama has the most black mayors of any State in the.
with the second most, considering its poor population, the,
most gross number, that is whole number, of black elected 0 ...
Per capita, Alabama is about 10 times ahead of any other S'
So things have happened down there and I hope that they
tinue to happen and are not inverted and reverted by w.ha.t,
pens as a result of these hearings. I have not heard any,p
Democratic colleagues, including Senator Kennedy, say !In'
that I did not think were coming from sincerity on .theirp· '
all, theY looked at allegations sworn to in affidavits by this"
Department official and others. They assumed those thin
true. We are learning they were not true, and when the
they are. not true, if they show up at this hearing, I hope th
change their minds. " ,
, On the issue of Jeff Sessions responding to Mr. Hebert's as
that a judge called Jim Blacksher, a white civil rights attorne
traitor or disgrace to his race," it may well be that if the P\!'
of the conversation was to establish whether the judge had ac,
made this statement, that Sessions was simply responding.t
question of whether it was said. Jeff's response could just as.
have been, "Well, maybe he did." In other words, maybe tM.
did say that, because in the final analysis this is what Hebe
trying to ascertain, did the judge say that Jim Blacksher is i
tor or disgrace to his race. So I believe that at best some.
statements attributed to Mr. Sessions have been highly di
and rendered significant beyond any possible just degree..,
Before the hearing proceeds much further, we had bettll
stand what the issue is, because it too has been distorted. T
is, Is Mr. Sessions competent to serve as a judge in the U.S.
court, does he possess the academic and intellectual qualiti
would permit him to serve, does he have judicial temper
he a man of integrity who will decide cases solely on the
evidence and the law? ,
I believe he is, the President believes he is, still believ
and I have heard nothing during the course of this hearin
suade me from this view, and I hope that you will hear til.
today which should remove doubts about him. . "','
The American :Bar Association conducted an extensiYe"'~
tion and examined most, if not all of the same allegations r,
173
llaring 'on March 13. They found these allegations to be with-
erit because in the final analysis the ABA rated him quali-
ave here a statement of endorsement of the Sessions nomina-
om the Mobile Bar Association, which includes both black
hite lawyers, it is dated March 17, 1986. It states:
at Association's firm belief that Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the
of U.S. District Judge, that he has been fair with all persons, regardless of
national origin, and that any suggestions that Mr. Sessions is racially preju-
." ,th unfounded and unfair.
uld like, without objection, to place this statement by the
·Bar Association executive committee in the record.
statement referred to follows:]
ENT ADOPTED BY MOBILE BAR AsSOClATION EXECUTIVE CoMMITl'EE ON MARCH
17, 1986
ecutive Committee of the Mobile Bar Association. Mobile, Alabama, hereb;r
B its endorsement of U.S. Attorney Jefferson B. Sessions, III, for the paSl-
U.S. District Judge for the Southern District of Alabama, and states its firm
at Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the position of U.S. District Judge,
,has been fair with all persons regardless of race or national origin, and that
gestion Mr. Sessions is racially prejudiced is both unfounded and unfair.
r DENTON. I recognize Senator Heflin for an opening state-
STATEMENT OF SENATOR HOWELL HEFLIN

ll;f6r HEFLIN. I have no opening statement other than I would
at, while other Senators are absent, they do have staff indi-
··here and I am sure that they will not rely merely on media
ts as to the decisions that they would make. They have staff
and I have staff people who will be here throughout the
hearing and they will be taking notes and things of this sort.
re that many of them would come; unfortunately we in the
have been best described as a lOO·ring circus, we are due to
hundred different places all at the same time and there are
red different things going on. Of course, that is an exaggera-
ut there are at least a hundred different things going on and
·not cover all of them and we have to depend on staff. Each
as a lar!!e staff and they have fields that they are able to
expert In and they inform us when we are absent what
',r
tor DENTON. Thank you, Senator Heflin. That is very true, if
upport what the Senator said. Their absence does not neces-
. ean that they do not care. I am missing a number of sub-
ttee hearings which my opponents can use in the election of
Twas absent. I have no choice. I chaired from 2 until 9 the
ay, except for chairing in the Senate, presiding. I missed a
;;ofsubcommittee meetings then and I am missing several
·;expect that we will adjourn today at 4 o'clock, because this
as'to be used for something else, so we will be here until 4
·so that room could be prepared for its use for another activ-
·ow call panel one, which consists of Paul F. Hancock, As-
or Litigation, Voting Section, Civil Rights Division, Depart-
174
ment of Justice, Washington, DC; John C. Keeney, Deputy,
ant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of J\!
Barry Kowalski, Deputy Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights
sion, Department of Justice; Albert Glenn, Criminal Section,
Rights Division, Department of Justice; and Daniel Bell, De
Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights Division, Department of.
tice.
If you will all stand, gentlemen, I will swear you in.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give
this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing b
truth, so help you G o d ? "
Mr. HANCOCK. I do.
Mr. KEENEY. I do.
Mr. KOWALSKI. I do.
Mr. GLENN. I do.
Mr. BELL. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. KEENEY, DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATT
GENERAL, CRIMINAL DIVISION; PAUL F. HANCOCK, ASS.!
FOR LITIGATION, VOTING SECTION, C.!VIL RIGHTS nIV
BARRY KOWALSKI, DEPUTY CHIEF, CRIMINAL SECTION,'
RIGHTS DIVISION; ALBERT GLENN, ATTORNEY, CRIMINA
TION, CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION; AND DANIEL BELL, DE
CHIEF, CRIMINAL SECTION, CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION, DE
MENT OF JUSTICE
Senator DENTON. I will recognize Deputy Assistant
General John C. Keeney and I would suggest that he rna
statement he cares to and then introduce his colleagues i
order as he chooses to make their statements.
Mr. KEENEY. Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I are here
ferent missions. My mission is to discuss the Perry Count
the Turners and Hogue case. "
Senator DENTON. Would you please put the microphone!
closer to your mouth or directly in front? ..
Mr. KEENEY. Is that better, Mr. Chairman?
Mr, KEENEY. As I said, my mission is to discuss the Per
cases, and I would like to briefly describe the history of th
First of all, we have to go back. The cases arose out of
election, primary election, but there is a history that g
before that. In 1982, there was information developed by
prosecutor with a local grand jury showing a discrepancy
writing on registration forms and absentee applications,'
ballots themselves reflected a number of strikeovers. .
Now, one of the difficulties that the local prosecutol"
local grand jury had with the investigation is that they e
identify the strikeover ballots with the individual voter, s
were not able to go back to a-take a particular ballot ba'1!:
voter and ask him or her whether or not that was his or her,'
That is important because this situation changed in 1984. di
Because of their inability to further develop the cases, th
!,Tosecutor and the grand jury itself in Perry County as
Federal Government to take over. They discussed it with
--""'''1'
'li
,j
,I
175
,X¥r.Sessions discussed it with Craig Donsanto of oUr Public
iti Section, who is our specialist on election fraud, and they
:ded that-I guess primarily Mr. Donsanto took the lead in
that the likelihood of developing cases on this record is not
,iantly high to warrant the use of the resources at that time,
,rily the use of the resources of the FBI, which were t h e n ' ! l
u,tilized in two other counties in Alabama on election fraud
','!'hey were also being utilized very heavily in Chicago and
,County in Texas, among others.
, the, pattern that, was reflected .in that grand jury was a
f absentee ballots by a deputy sheriff in his pickup truck
solicitation of absentee ballots by members of the Perry
Civic League. That is the stOry insofar as 1982, and it is im-
asa background to 1984.
,rimilry in 1984 was scheduled for September 4. On Septem-
r. Sessions was advised that the same people were conduct-
same activities, the solicitation of ballots seen in the pickup
f the deputy sheriff. The observations were made by two
primarily, a man by the name of Billingslea and a Colonel
who was a tax assessor in the local area, and they observed
'nvelopes, open election ballot envelopes on the truck of the
" sheriff and they also advised that they had observed a
,together of the activists at the party headquarters, particu-
,e Turners and Mr. Hogue.
, ditional factor was present here that was not present previ-
on,e of the local citizenry went to the circuit court and they
or an .order that would direct the election officials to palr up
,ots that were cast with the envelope, the second envelope in
those ballots were placed which has the name of the voter
at if there were strikeovers or anything on the ballot, that
ividuals-that the investigators could go back to the individ-
fS and ask them whether or not the ballot as it presently
the ballot as it was executed by them.
,rDENToN. Excuse me, sir. If this is something new, would
d" starting that part of it agaln, something
, we have not
'NEY. Well, I think it is a well-known fact of the area, but
pened was that the citizens in-I believe they were the
viduals I referred to, Mr. Kinard and Mr. Billingslea, went
rcuit court and asked for a court order which would order
tion officials in Perry County to authorize the so-called
f ballots, absentee ballots.
'that meant simply was there is an original outside enve·
're is an interior envelope with the name of the voter and
fe is also a ballot inside the interior envelope. What they
I'der for was a direction to the county officials to mark the
rober on or mark in a similar fashion numbers I believe,
e number on the ballot with the voter's name, as is on
'envelope with the voter's name as is on the ballot, so it
investigators to go back and take the individual ballots,
e.w who cast which ballot, and they were then able to go
those people and ask whether or not the ballot as flied was
t that they had executed.
176
~o there was a pairing up of the ballots by thegrapd,'
thIS, and there was one other step, Mr. Chairman. Tn .
mail cover put on. All of this happened very quickly,
September 3, the day before the election. The FBI, an
was observing the party headquarters and noted thllt th
and the Hogues brought in, Turners and Hogue brougli
appeared to be bundles of ballots. ,~;
He continued the observation until he saw Mr. Ifo!l\i
Turner deposit those ballots, those bundles of ballots ilJ
pository. Prior to that time, a mail cover was obtailJecf,.•
abl~d a n:ail official ipside the de.pository· to obserye'"
advIse whICh ballots had been deposIted by Mr. Hogu~ a
ballots had been deposited by Mr. Turner, and he put a "
"H" on the ballots reflecting which of the individuals had
ed the mail.
That, of course, Mr. Chairman, is important because',
into play the mail fraud statute. If there are fraudulent Q
were able to demonstrate the mails were used in conll.el!
them.
I might just put in perspective, because in the past I"
fied on thIS subject before the Edwards committee in,t
and a question was ra:ised as to why the Government'di"
off on its investigation until after the elections were over;'·
, As I mentioned earlier, we are dealing with a primar
here on September 4. There was a runoff election on the
as you and Senator Heflin in particular can attest, the cri
tion insofar as local people are concerned, the local call.
the runoff election in the primary. So the investigatio'
going on the street, as it were, was held off until after
election was held. ,;'""
Now, what did the ballots show? They showed that
ballots out of 709 cast. Of those-we do not usually IO$:
things from the standpoint of race; as a matter of ,fa:
House we were asked for statistics nationwide based tipo
we had to tell Chairman Edwards we do not keep sta:
way, ,Qut we did go back and reconstruct nationally
some reconstruction here at the request of the committ
have the figures here.
, ,.There were five ballots cast by white persons and .
were interviewed they said it was a mistake, they had rna
take and the alteration was theirs. There were 70 ballots
blacks, some of which had the "T" for Turner or the····
Hogue markings on, and 29 of those ballots were changed
lots which had--
Senator DENTON. Do you mean changed illegally?
M,' r: KEENEY. Changed illegally, yes. wei,,I, they, wer,e, eh
then we followed through, Mr. Chairman. and took the
to the individual voters and, based upon the interviews
voters, we, concluded that they were chan~d, yes. ..' :
Now, of those 29 involved with an "H' or a "T" on the
with the "H" an eraser had been used, and those with
black pen had been used for strikeovers. We had one
where the person who purportedly had voted never exeq
ballot.
---,-._~-
177
n that information, the grand jury, which ran from Octo-
ember, and December 1984, returned an indictment on the
anuary 1985, charging conspiracy to violate the mail fraud
'>multiple-voting statutes, also charging substantive mail
d charging substantive violations by Mr. Hogue and Mr.
the multiple-voting statutes.
airman, at every stage of this process the Department of
,Criminal Division, Public Integrity Section was involved.
roved the investigation, as we are required to do. We ap-
:he, indictment. As a matter of fact, one of our people was
e and worked on the indictment and presentation.
airman, it was handled in all respects in a very regular
.. olYowing through on the general enforcement program in
'on fraud area of the Department of Justice.
You.
r DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Keeney. Just so we understand
Perry County election was all about, was this a Democrat-
..Republican election or a Democratic versus Democratic
'·NEY. It was a Democratic primary.
r DENTON. A Democratic primary, with no Republican in-
Was the case apparently whites seeking to perpetrate a
ainst blacks in an election which in newspapers has been
prior to this, or was this principally black people saying
ir votes had been changed and that they were changed
lyby black people?
'ENEY, The complainants were black people who were
Iitically. The victuns were black people and, of course, the
ts were black. "
rPENTON. So the victims were Democratic voters and they
. in race?
~. Yes, sir.
ENTON. I guess Senator Heflin came first. Senator
'" dP,ypu. Mer?
,j'jECONCINI. I have no questions.
'DENTON. Well, I would like to welcome my distinguished
from Arizona and he defers to Senator Heflin, my senior
trom Alabama.
r'HEFLIN. Mr. Keeney, there was the Perry County pros-
.the southern' district of Alabama and there were some
.ons in the northern district of Alabama. Do you remember
ties were involved in that?
liNEY. I do 'not, Senator.
HEFLIN, Greene County or--
'NEY. It was Mr. Bell who prosecuted that.
H'EFLIN. He did no~--
NEY.'! know them by prosecutor rather than by county,
an.
fr' HEFLIN. Well, they had this one in which there was a
11· a1J,d then there was another one, maybe it was Greene
I am trying to remember whether there was any other
Greene County or Greene and Perry County. Since you do
the counties, I will have to elicit that information from
else.
178
, Was this investigation entirely directed toward the abseil
Mr. KEENEY. Absolutely, yes, sir. . ."
Senator HEFLIN. Why was it directed only to the absente
Mr. KEENEY. Because my understanding was those wer~
mary allegations. You see, these were allegations before th
election, Senator Heflin, and we followed through on them.'
eror not there was any fraUd on the election balloting, r
not know, but I do not know of any significant investiga
we conducted with respect to it.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, there have been charges, whethei'
true Or not at this stage it is not for me to say, that thE!,
ment of Justice was directing in Alabama a vote fraudhl
tion in a certain section of the State which is predominant!
and instead of investigating irregUlarities that might hav
place in the past or either establish some pattern that w6,
place in this election, it was centered in what is knowil"
black belt of Alabama as opposed to some other section. ••
Now, there have been allegations of vote fraud in other f"
of the State, One in DeKalb County, in the 1984 electi6
which is a predominantly white, and has a very small pel'
of blacks, and there have been reports that the local Repu
there wanted an investigation as to the absentee box and ab,
voting, but that the Department of Justice declined to go i
Now, that does not pertain to Sessions because he is not'
district and he is in the southern district, but this would be'
the Department of Justice, that there have been selective;p
tions and selective counties where you have conducted you
fraud which have been predominantly black areas.
Mr. KEENEY. Senator-- ",
Senator HEFLIN. As I say, these charges have been mi!ll"
will give you an opportunity to resp,ond to them. "t
Mr. KEENEY. I accept the word 'selective" if you willa'
explanation of what we view as selective. We prosecute'.
reactive organization-we prosecute on the basis ofcompl
we prosecute to the extent that we have available resourC
As I indicated, one of the reasOns that we did not ~et
investigation in 1982 was that the FBI investigative resou
spread very thin throughout the country and additional,
tors would have to be brought in in order to fully develo'
vestigation. . . ,"'?'t
The other reason, of course, is when-which you, as' a,C;
tice of Alabama can appreciate-the evidentiary proble,
more severe in 1982 than they turned out to be in 1984.
We have a nationwide program, Senator Heflin, andY{,
to the complaints wherever they may be and we try to"ll..
sources most effectively to have successful prosecutioI)s:'
have a deterrent effect. :
Senator HEFLIN. Well, as I said, you asked me if I wOll:
the word "selective." I just quoted a charge that was rna
is rather hearsay to me, so I do not know, that is not my·
I am saying that that is one of the charges that has b
about the Department of Justice that there are other co
there have been some evaluation of absenteee boxes, wh:
179
,A.;very, high percentage in certain areas of absentee voting as
ed to. the total vote.
'arna is low on absentee voting, it is rather restrictive, and I
at charge has been made and I wanted to give you an op-
y, since you are the deputy in charge of this, to respo!).d.
r position is that other than in the southern district, the
. tters are being handled by someone else?
'EENEY. The other matters are being handled by someone
an Mr. Sessions. All I was saying, Senator Hefli!)., was with
to DeKalb Countr I am not up on DeKalb County to intelli-
.iscuss it today With you. I would be very glad to get back to
,the subject. I was just trying to explain the general policy.
nstance, in 1982, one of the reasons that we did not proceed,
the reasons that we decided not to proceed with Perry
"was the fact that we were active in, among ocher things,
er counties in Alabama.
tor HEFUN. Well, we are not trying DeKalb County, but
!)arge has been made against the Department of Justice more
It has against Mr. Sessions and I was curious about it.
ator DENTON. Would my colleague yield? I have some infor-
I think that might be useful. It was given the other day
you arrived. The best we can obtain on the voting fraud in-
tions in Alabama during the term of the present administra-
as follows: A 1981 Case in Randolph County involved the in-
!)tof 11 people, 1 of whom was black. Three people, all
were convicted, including the incumbent sheriff.
ullock County, in 1983, a black city councilman was indicted
ed guilty to a voting rights violation. In Marshall County, in
ne person, white, was indicted and convicted of charges simi-
the Perry County case. .
p it complete, in DeKaib County, which is principally
e Republican Party has asked for a voting fraud investiga-
thus far there has been none.
r HEFUN. Well, what you are stating, Senator Denton, in-
rimarily convictions. I was speaking about investigations
e .been made.
EENEY. Senator Heflin, maybe I could be helpful to you
pect to nationwide policy. As I indicated earlier, I testified
he Edwards committee on this subject and we were asked
stics on prosecutions, convictions by race, and we told them
ot have them but then we went ahead and got the figures.
e testimony that I gave before the Edwards committee, I
the figures, how many blacks, how many whites, how
ublicans, how many Democrats, how many in the South,
in the North, and so forth. I would be glad to make that
to you, Senator Heflin.
r HEFLIN. Well, I happen to have a copy of this and your
;y'I believe is that investigations a~e presently in progress
,green, Bullock, Lowndes, whereas m Perry local black po-
r.es have brought specific information to our attentIOn
tilied subjects of crimmai actionable conduct.
.n. order to properly put it in perspective, what is the proce-
en you start one and the relationship of the U.S. attorney
Department of Justice? You say you receive complai!).ts.
180
These could have been received by the U.S. attorney or, ¢d
received in Washington. . :
Mr. KEENEY. Yes, sk "
Senator HEFLIN. What is the procedure that is followedtQ
tigate prior to determining whether or not criminal actidij'
be brought and indictment s o u g h t ? : :
Mr. KEENEY. The U.S. attorneys have the authority to CQ
preliminary inquiry which largely consists of interview~"
complainants. Then if they want to conduct a full-scale in
tion they have to get the approval of the Criminal Divisi
Public Integrity Section. Then they go on with the invest
and if they reach a point where they are going to recomm
indictment, the Criminal Division, Public Integrity Secticjni
pass on the i n d i c t m e n t . "
We keep a much tighter control oVer election fraud Cas
we do other type cases, Senator Heflin, for obvious reasons. .
Senator HEFLIN. In this case, as you reviewed it, in the i
that Mr. Sessions had recommended no prosecution, would.t
partment of Justice nevertheless have sought an indictment?
Mr. KEENEY. I do not know. Certainly, we would have cd.'
it, whether or not we would, I do not know because we gi
ence to U.S. attorneys because they are on the scene, t
the witnesses, they know the juries in their district an,d we
great deal of deference. So although we might consider itr'
not say that we would necessarily have overruled himarl
over the case, even though the strikeover allegations were
cant and in my judgment pretty good e v i d e n c e . '
Senator HEFLIN. Well, he cannot institute action for an
ment without the approval of the Department of Justice?
Mr. KEENEY. That is right. :!?,
Senator HEFLIN. In other words, if he desired on his OW!:ll
something, under the procedures that you have outline he
not do it unless the Department of Justice put the stamp ofa
alan it? '
Mr. KEENEY. That is right, Senator.
Senator HEFLIN. I may have something else and,siI1'cf
going to other staff members, I may want to ask him later'
Senator DeConcini.
Senator DECONCINI. I have no questions.
Senator DENTON. All right. Mr. Keeney, just one final q
In xour overview of this Perry County case and in your "ve
ciVIl rights prosecutions, the entire field in Alabama,.
aware of any improper actions on behalf of Mr. Sessiorr
case or any other?
Mr. KEENEY. May I just correct. I have nothing to do vi
rights prosecutions. My colleagues do. We are broken dow
Department of Justice in that fashion. In answer to your....:
there is no question about my dealings with Mr. Ses~
have been first rate. He is a good lawyer and every deiil!
had with him has been fine. I know nothingderogator;y .
Sessions except obviously I read the papers in the last few
Senator DENTON. Mr. Keeney, we have had a request b
posing the nomination, which I will honor. It seems that'
181
<will have to leave prematurely, considering the pace of this
. g. so if I may I will excuse you and ask the others to remain
"we get Professor Liebman's testimony because he has a 12
k plane to catch and there will only be 5 minutes of testimo-
1> you very much.
KEENEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
tor DENTON. Dr. Liebman, would you come forward?
ld you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
timony you will give tcday before this hearing is the truth,
ole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
IEJ3MAN. I do, Mr. Chairman.
tor DENTON. Please be seated.
liltONY OF JAMES S. LIEBMAN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF
LAW, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW
btor DENTON. You are assistant professor of law at Columbia
rsity School of Law?
LIEBMAN. Associate professor.
tor DENTON. Associate professor. And I understand you have
ment you wish to make?
~:'LIEBMAN. Yes, sir.
ator DENTON. Please proceed.
LIEBMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would just like
ank you for getting me on early. I have 120 students who are
, g to hear about the hearsay rule for the first time today and
ot want to disappoint them. They will all be appreciative, too,
ure.
'name is James Liebman, and prior to coming to the law
I in January of this year I was a staff attorney for the '
CP Legal Defense Fund for 6 years. In that role, r was counsel
e of the three defendants in the Perry County case that has
e subject of some discussion this morning, and that is Speno
gue, Jr.
's prepared a written statement and that statement address-
arily the selective prosecution issue which has been the sub·
so of some discussion here and, without going into that or
. it here, I would simply ask, Mr. Chairman, that a copy
statement which has previously been submitted to the com·
pe made a part of the record.
torDENTON. Without objection, it shall be.
LIEBMAN. I would also ask, if I could, that a copy of the
ent of my former associate at the Legal Defense Fund, Lani
", with an accompanying affidavit, be made part of the
She could not be here today.
or DENTON. Without objection, that will be entered in the
'IEBMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
,tement of Ms. Guinier follows:]
182
TESTIMON'Y OF
LAN! GUINIER, E~QUIRE
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND, INC.
My name Is Lan! auinter. I am Assistant Counsel~ NAACP

Legal Defense and Eduoational Fund (LOF). LOF Is ;one of the-
organizations Within the Leadership Conference on
I litigate almost exclusively in the voting rights area.
substantial responsibility for litigating two of the most
cant statewide reapportionment oases interpreting Section 2
Voting Rights Act, as amended in 1982: Major v. ~. 574
325 (E.D. La. 1983) (three judge court) (the "Donald
gresslonal gerrymander) and Gingles v, Edmisten, 590 F. Supp,
(E.D. N.C. 1984). probable jUl"1sdlctlon noted, April 29, 1985.
I was involved with the Leadership Conference In the
effort to extend and amend the Voting Rights Act in 1982.
legislation reaffirmed the commitment of Congress to full and
meanins.rul political participation by all Amer~cans.
author, with Drew S. Days, III, of a chapter on

Section 5 of the Voting Rishts Act in the book, MinoritY,Vote
Dilution (Howard University Press, 1984). From 1977.1981, -r.~
was Speoial Assistant to Mr. Days when he

General for Civil Rights, United States Department of Justice.
submit this testimony on be'half of the LeaderShip Ccnferenoe
Civil Rights and the Legal Defense Fund in opposition to the
nomination of Jefferson B. Sessions, III, to the United
District Court in the Southern Distriot of Alabama.
I was one of the defense oounsel representing Spencer
Jr., in the federal proseoution, United States v.Albert Turne~;"
Spenoer Hogue, Jr. end Evelyn Turner, Cr. No.
The defendants, three voting rights activists from
Alabama, were prosecuted on charges of oonspiracy, mail fraud.
and, voting more than onoe by Mr. Sessions as' the United Stat'e's"
Attorney with two assistants. The 29 count indiotment was
in large part, on the theory of the 'U.S. Attorney Sessions
was illegal for the defendants, in assisting elderly and ilaterat,
183
o vo~e by absentee ballot, physioally to mark or to change,

voter's permission and at their request, the "xts" next to
'S,¢f oandidates listed on the absentee ballot. After a
a jurr of seven blacks end five whites aoquitted
"dants of elloharges, haVing deliberated for lesa than
e defendants were active in the Perry county Civie League,

they formed in 1962 to get blacks the right to
there were less than 200 blacks in Perry County
. Mayor Andrew Yeung testlr~ed as a defense
that one of the defendants led the mule train at Dr. Martin
King's funeral~ and was chiefly responsible for the idea of
ch from Selma to Montgomery in 1965 that led to passage of
5~Voting Rights Aot. Dr. King,who marched with the defen-
others from Perry county in 1965, wrote at the time how
he was with the people of Perry County and with their
press for the right to vote. Dr. King was par-
by the fact that on one day alone almost one
~adu1t black population of the City of Marion within Perry
was arrested while engaged in a nonviolent protest of the
their franchise.l l As Or. King predicted in 1965, the
Perry County, under the banner of the Perry County
continued even after passage of the 1965 Voting
organize blacks in the county to register, vote
elected offioe.
the defendants, Albert Turner and Spencer ~ogue,
ere officers of the Civic League. In that oonnection, and

With other community leaders, they played an
role in the lives or many blacks in the county, Perry
a rural, poor county and many or its residents are
rate or barely literate. In the early 60's the defendants
teach these residents to sign their names in order to
pass the literacy test then in effect. Even today,
and Mr. Hogue minister daily to the needs of elderly
residents; They deliver food, bring medicine, and
1 Civil Right," The N. Y. Times,
184
carry peepl e to thehospi tal.- Th'eyare ,trusted. and ,depended

upon.
Particularly with regard to the exercise of the franchls.e,,'C"

they are instrumental in insuring that all ellg1bl,_ voters who;
wish to vote can. As Steve Suitts, f9rmer executive dlrector,of
the Southern Regional Council, attests in his affidavit 8ccompan
my testimony, "both history and current circumstances make it
necessary for private blaok citizens to assist the black elderlYI;
in voting ••.. [V)oting assistance ... at the ballot box and
with absentee ballots is key in such place:l." Not just the
elderly, but those who are illiterate, who work out of town and'
who cannot get to the polls on election day (which 1s not surpria
since there is no public transportation and the polling plaoes
are not in walking distance) need assistance in voting
must vote by absentee ballot in order to vote at all.
Many of these people solicit the assistance of community
like Mr. Turner and Mr. Hogue. When called as witnesses by
U.S. Attorney,. these voters proclaimed loudly that they trusted
Mr. Hogue and Mr. Turner, that they asked them to help them
and that they couldn't have voted without this assistance.
Mr. and Mrs. Turner and Mr. Hogue all cooperated with
Mr. Sessions' investigation, VOluntarily testifying before
grand jury. In their grand jury testimony, which the U.S.
introduced at trial, Mr. Turner and Mr. Hogue admittedmarking:"€'
ballots but said they did so only with the voter's
in their presence. The testimony at trial and the Government's
evidence confirmed the defendants' explanation that
were only marked with permission. The voters, 'many
uneducated, even illiterate, had tried to guess the candidat~s
supported by defendants. They trusted the defendants, considere

them knowledgeable, and relied on their politIcal judgment.
the defendants arrived to pick up th~.ballot. the voter
to check the ballot to see if it was "right" or to fill
ballot the way "they" (Meaning the Perry County Civic League)
voting. If the voter had guessed wrong, the defendant
ballot only after checking whether the voter wanted to
their slate.
185
Baaed on the way this oase was investigated and prosecuted

~, S8ssions and two assistants, serious question arlae about
udiclal temperament, fitness and oompetenoe'of Jeff Sessions.
e~o8e scrutiny in relation to the following
in ~he case:
Whe£her Mr. Sessions bothered to determine what the
law was prior to, -during or even after the case was
presented to the jury. Mr, Sessions persisted in the
vie~ that fillIng out a ballot for someone else is
illegal despite § 208 of the voting Rights Act whioh
makes assistance in voting a right, and despite the
ruling of both the magistrate and the judge that the
United States Constitution and the voting Rights Aot
protect voting assistanoe.
Mr. Sessions failed to investigate similar charges
against whites. Voter assistance in filling out
absentee ballots is widespread in Perry County and
throughout the black belt. The actions Mr. Sessions
claimed were illegal when committed by defendants
were in fact both legal and pervasive. Yet it was
only when civil rights activists assisted voters
that their actiVity was cri~inalized. The targeting
of the investigation only against black civil rights
workers showed insensitivity to the role they were
playing and has had a Chilling effect on other blaoks'
t:w111fngness to vote again. This' was not a case of
vote buying or Official malfeasanoe. Thls was simply
riot a oase in Which the federal gcvernment had any
legitimate criminal supervisory responsibility.
~c1heFBI was not properly sup;r~~ae~ in its 1nvestiga-
tion of the case. Witnesses were intimidated, con-
ru~ed and disoriented by the manner and frequency
Of questioning. Witnesses were not asked what
happened; they were told What happened. The first
statemerit made to voters by FBI "agents paying
'un'announced visits wast ItI am the FBI. I hav,e your
ballot. Your ballot has been tampered with." Some
186
of the witnesses were interviewed by phone about

b~119ts they'could not see. Others were questioned
about ballots they were shown but could not read.
Still others were asked about an election they cou14
not remember. Yet, without properly re-interviewing
these witnesses, Hr ..Susions nevertheless ;presented
them a~ part of the government's case, only to be
"surprised" by the unreliability of their test.imony.
II. There are standards governing the federal interest -in
prosecuting e1eotion offenses, There was norederal
interest in this casewh1c~'on1y involved oandidates
running in local races. There were no oomplaining
witnesses other than defendants' political opponents
Who were the candidates in the local races. Moreover,
as to the government witnesses who did testify ~he
. judge admonished Mr. Sessions to stop putting on wit-

nesses simply to impeach them with statements they
allegedly gave the FBI. The awful legaoy of this
ill-c,onceived prosecution is its frightening effeot
primarily on elderly black voters, m~ny of whom
left the witness stand say inS, "This is just too
much. won't ever vote again."
It is not that Mr. Sessions lost this cas~ that is the
issue'. The issue is that he never had a .case 1n
from the indictment to the verdiot.
The~e prosecutions represent an
tively to use the re~ources of the federal government to
blacks from voting. The federal offioial who prosecutes
civil rights workers for attempting to assist elderly and
illiterate blacks to vote by absentee
not rewarded with life tenure.
I have here the testimony of James Liebman, one of the
trial attorneys who is now a law professor at
sity. Mr. Liebman has written a comprehensive statemen~,~rt
Seuions' conduot of these prosecutions which I urge th,e.,

CommIttee to consider. I also.request that the Lieb/tlan
187
made a part of the record of this hearing. For the

a'et forth in my statement and that Of Professor Liebman's
as the affidavits of Daval Patrick and Morton Stevis, I
nomination.
188
County of Fulton
State otceorg!.
Affidavit 2! Steve ~
X, Steve Suitts, beinq duly aworn, do hereby depose

stater
1. My name 18 Steve Suitt. and I am the executive cU.rect-
of the Southern Regional Council of Atlanta,
2. For more than fifteen years I have
research', "'n&1ysis, and studi •• concerning voting' rights in"
South. During the early 1970'. I was staff member And dine"
of the Selma Inter-Religious Project which provided
leqal and technical assistance to community leaders
Alabama and loutheast Mi.si.sippi. For five years in the 19'~
I served .a executive director of the Civil Libertie. Union'

Alabama and was responsible for the general aupervision,'t
.....,
report. and litigation which often foculed on voting

Since 1977 l' have .erved a. the ..executive_ director
Southern Regional Council, a non"proflt,
organization which hal carried out research, .nalysi.,
technical assistance on a range of important
including voting rights, for 41 years.
3. During my tenure with the,e th~ee organizations, I
been involv.d consi.tently In the .tudy of barriers
participation by black 9itizens and of effective means
racial discrimination can be removed from voting in
b.va provided g.neral .• up~ryi.i~n for projects
primary r •••• rch on voting trends and b.rriers to full pol
participation. l' have published more than twenty monograph.
erticle. analyzing voting trends, barriers to
participation and remedies for racial discrimination in
l' have provided expert testilnony or analysis for more than ,-
administrative and court proceedingl. AlIO, l'
requested to testify en .ever.l occalionl a. an expert ony
rights by the Committe•• on the J\:Idiciary of the U.S. Se'~.'
th,e U.S. Hou.e of Repre.ent.tive ••
189
;,~'.caUIe' of .~my work and research, I have b8~om. _v~ry
'illar with barriers to political r;)articipation in the rural

"S 'of the South and especially the areas known as -the Black
Il m also familiar- generally with developments, trends,
[~6n~ition8 in Perry County, Alabama.
'5'. Both history -and current cirCllmstanCes in the Black
of Alabama and perry County make it necessary fpr private
~k citizens to assist the black elderly lnvotirlg. In order
~a$sur~ that political participation is not limited by race or
'.,,'veting assistance for eitizens-1:ly private citizenS at the
lot box .ndwi~h' .'biifentee ballots" is key in such places. In
'·,Black Belt and Perry County, the level of education for the
and especially the elderly, is very low. By
"U80census, only forty-three percent -at the total population
age of twenty-five in Perry County had II high school
although fifty-seven percent at all Alabamians of that
~h'ad hll]hschool d-i'plomas. For the elderly and black, the
, ofedl.1¢ation is mueh lower. For example, the number of
'n"~wenty-five yeats or older 'with four years of high achool
:at:i'on in 19SD in Perry County -- those who woule! be fifty-
~~ears or older today --was only 110 of 5,780 blacks.
The 'need for vat in; assistance by private black
to the black .lderly is also supported by the history of
h"ex'cli.uion, tension, and violence in Perry County. The
e}'of a black citizen to register to vote in Perry County wa.s
~~bs.rvedgenerAllY before 1965. Records of the Southern
'oneal Council 8uggest that fewer than 100 black voters were
ite-r~d'in Perry 'County at that time when more than 6,000 were
'!:.l:bte ·to regh:ter. Blacks who 'protested this denial of the
"'to vote in 1965 were met ..... ith hostility, .J.rrest, and
In -February 1965, Jimmie Lee Jackson, a black activist
increase voting rights of blacks in Perry CountYJ was
Aftervard:s, .....h.n racial violence' diminished, White
'h"iroe in the 'coUnty con~Unued. In this lfIajority black
county, government services an4 in.titutions, such as
01., were not desegre9ated for several years afterward.. The
190
effecta of this history are real .~d direct upon many .lder
black.. For example, a black woman at the age of 67 today
Perry County hal spent almost three-fourths of
.egr.9.ticn where blacka could not Yote, could not
school., could not u•• public toilet., and had to
peraon vouch for her in order to obtain loan. or gov.ink
servicea. Under the circumstances it 11 bport:ant that th.,}bl
elderly in places such &8 Perry County have private citizens
they trust to assist in exereiling the right to vote.
7. LimHed by • ~ist.orr of ~achl exclusion and viol
,
and the low levels of education, often the resulto! qoYer
enforced ••qregated education, the elderly black populatio
Perry COunty constitute. a substantial number. In 1980,
percent of the total population Yes sixty-five year.
although throughout Alabama only eleven
population yas that old.
a. The need for private asSistance in voting
limited to'day in Perry COunty to only the black elder:Jy.':
emplo.yment patterns, thirty-one percent of the working pop,~'~::
of P!r~y' !=~unty comm,uted ,to work outside the co?nty
t
i:~,J
,,'i
" I, ,...
Since people work outside the county of their residenc~, ~p~.
balloting is an important muns by which the right to vote"~i"

exercl.ed in Perry county. These workers, a. well :"~~
elderly, may often require assistance because of their,.. ~e~
A/fl
low level of education. Also in light of the history of.;.r

tension in the county, these blacks may turn to
citizens for assistance in voting.
9. The right to vote in Perry County end other
the South's Black Belt remains impeded by practical b~~.
The number of day., the location, and the times at
citizen can register to vote in Perry County are limited
incomparilon to more urban and ,uburban location••
citie.n. rely upon ~ther private citizens to a .. lIt';'~L
registering to vote in place. like Perry county.
levels of education, high rate of elderly population, and~~
191 1
,
eommuting. workers, many citizens in Perry County

'~ls'siltance\olith'voting_ With a history of racialtenslon
exclusion, black vOtetl often turn to other private black
eris l,or assistance in vo'ting at the 'ballot box and with
ntee'ballots. Black citizens Who assist black voters in this
an important public serviee and perform a useful
10. Over the last several years, elderly black voters in

81a.okBel-t have come to depend over time upon black citizens,
en civil rights advocates, to perform this asslstance. From
'6wn research, studY, and personal observation 1 have found
_~ the relationship -between the civil rights advocates and
is based upon trust, oral communications, and
The advocate must often interpret the oral
the voter in light of their past relationship And
For instAnce. I once observed an elderly black
!lack !elt SAY. "I want it done like last time," in
she wished to vote. Yet. few people were on the
lot this time who were on the ballot at the last election.
·use X was present, the black civn rights advocate asked the
question he later told me ~e already had answered for
·You want to vote for the blacks running?" The elderly
!Sri replied rather heatedly. " • , • you know that's it, Oon't
an old woman like me," This exchange merely
fact that in the Black Belt effective voter
~'tarice by civil rights advocates often requires them to make
ood faith interpretlltion of orel instructions. which may not
meaninq to.others who do not know the assumptions
over time in their relationship. If civil ri9ht~
192
advocate. were to de.l ~if~.t~nt1y. with many eld.r1ya~d~
educated votera, it ia my opinion that they would diacou~~~
of these people from exercia1ng their right to vote.

The foregoing 18 true and accurate to the be~~;
~~::::'~'::'::iff~ of April 1985,
<"!:
\.:J8v\71tta
Sworn and lubscribed betore JUt on this

. ,"" . - ---
,1';.1;(. day of Apri~,l
"'--
(Notary pubilc)
H,*ry ~ic, GtoI;I., StI" It 1.1,..
....... ""
193
W
>i!'UEBMAN. What I wanted to talk about briefly here is a
that I refer to only at the very end of my written state-
'rid that goes to sOme matters that go beyond the selective
tion issue but are related to it. That involves a number of
rits that Mr. Sessions made during his testimony here as
Yin the Federal district court in Mobile that I would like to
"because I believe that the facts are different than those
. Sessions put forth in' those contexts. I will list a number
.If I do not have time to reach all of them, I will request
submit a supplemental written statement on any Icannot
'Mr. Sessions represented to the court in Mobil~ and I be-
this committee as well that before indicting the three de-
s in the Perry County case he reached two conclusions.
he says that he concluded that every absentee ballot which
allegedly unconsented change on it reflected a change from
,Hate that was opposed by the three defendants to a candi-
at the three defendants supported.
'tid, he said he reached the conclusion that everyone of those
, with unconsented alterations on them was mailed or, han-
one of the three defendallts.
,facts on that, Mr. Chairman, are otherwise. I would like to
's an example-there are others listed in my statement-a
of a voter who I will only identify by initials N.S. because I
t want to breach the secrecy of that ballot. FBI Agent Gary
testified to the grand jury in Mobile-and either Mr. Sessiolls
e of his assistants was there at the time-that the absentee
" of N.S. was "tampered with," that is, that someone had aI-
he, vote on that and had done so without the permission of
ter who had so informed Agent Clem.
, if we look at that ballot, we call ask the question, "how was
1M altered?" It was altered from a candidate that the three
nts supported to a candidate that the three defendantsop-
\ the secolldconclusion that Mr. Sessions .testified to con-
, who mailed that ballot. Did the defendants touch that al-
apparently fraudulently altered ballot? Well, if you iook at
lot, it is notarized by and itwas mailed not by these three
ants, but by one Andrew Hayden who is the mayor of Union-
AL" and enjoys the support of the white voter groups in the
nd as you will see in my statement, there are scores of bal-
at Mayor Hayden either notarized, mailed, signed, or other-
andled which have very suspicious markings on them such
'ose on this ballot of NoS. ,
d unlike the candidates that the three defendants supported,
'ndidates that Mayor Hayden supported won this election per-
!'because of ,those ballots that Mayor Hayden touched with
'very suspicious markings on them. Yet, Mr. Sessions never
igated and, of course, never indicted Mayor Hayden. So those
nclusions that Mr. Sessions reached I think are inaccurate to
,"tent that there were changes from candidates supported by
'ree defendants to candidates opposed by them that were not
nted to that were fraudulent, and those ballots were handled
194
by people other than the three defendants who were not indi
investigated further than FBI Agent Clem testified about.
Second, in explaining to the committee why he brought t
dictment, I fear that Mr. Sessions may have given the impr.
that every ballot relied upon in the indictment both had an·
ation on it and that that alterati,on was unconsented to. Agai
such impression would be inaccurate. A significant number"
lots that were relied upon at trial had no alteration whatso
them. For example, Robert White's. In fact, there was no c
anybody that there was an alteration on that ballot. ",
Moreover, the Government took to the jury a large number.
ditional ballots-and I will give two examples, Reaner Gree
Murphy Reed-on which there was unequivocal, uncontra
testimony that any change made on those ballots was cons
to-was asked for or made by-the voter. .~
Well, the question came up at trial, what exactly wasMf
sions' legal theory that he was proceeding with that wou1<i,.
him to go forward with ballots that did not have unconsent~<i
ations? And he explained that theory through his assistant a
What happened was that I sought to clarify what the G
ment's theory was in the transcript at pages 17 to 18, and t,
"What about a situation where a wife says to her h1.lsblj,l1.
husband to his wife, 'I don't know how to vote in this case, '
me how to vote and I will vote that way'." And I said "t
Attorney's office has indicated," as it had on the phone, "th
type of situation would fall within their idea of illegality un'
indictment.""'-',
Mr. Sessions' assistant then stood up and answered tothEi
to my question, "is that within their theory of voter frliu'
saying yes, "that is one of our theories." In other words, wh'
example, illiterate absentee voter Reaner Green told M~. H
and this is a quote from her testimony-"I want to vote .
y'all are voting," and then he filled out her ballot that wayol"
she was illiterate, Mr. Sessions expressly considered that to'
illegality and proceeded against the defendants on that theor
I think I need not remind the committee that that very't
voter assistance of illiterate voters is not illegal. In fact; that
ty was protected both by the 1982 amendments to the
Rights Act and in fact has been held for about 20 years to:
stitutionally protected a c t i v i t y . , " :
Third, Mr. Sessions testified here that he brought thes,,-c
in part because the number of absentee ballots voted inth
tember 1984 primary election was "extraordinarily high.":oI
as the Perry County absentee voter clerk testified at, t .
number of absentee ballots voted in that September 1984
was actually lower than in any other general election
county for the past five elections. It was lower by a factor 0
al hundred than the next previous primary election. So .
not an extraordinarily high number of ballots. In fact, ther
low number Qf ballots. ,•• i
. Fourth, Mr. Sessions testified that he brQught these chlif
in part because he wanted to take the prosecution or t4e,'
of the hands of a potentially biased and nOn<lojective local
take it over for himself.
195. I
11, the fact is, Mr. Chairman, that District Attorm!y Roy John-
peatedly publicly stated-and Mr Sessions' assist,\nt essen-
admitted at the selective prosecution l1earing in court-that
vestigation and this case .was conducted $oS a "joint effort"
n District Attorney Johnson and Mr. Sessions' office.
xample, every witness who was interviewed by the FBI was
I)1ultaneouly interviewed by someone ftom the local DA's
,Employees in the local DA's office were the people who rode
, bus with all of the witnesses from Selma to Mobile, to the
,jUlW, and in fact the local DA's office hired the bus.
~n I went to interview witnesses, an agent of the local DA's
in the DA's official car followed me around and reported, as I
'ter informed by the FBI, on my actions to the FBI while I
,nducting my investigation as an attorney in the case. And,
, there were DA officials in the interview room at the court-
all the time during trial helping the Government to prepare
es.
he fact is that Mr. Sessions' involvement in the case did not
,~ the potentially biasing and nonobjective influence of the
t attorney but, rather, just added to the district attorney's re-
"s by adding the FBI, the grand jury and--
'tor DENTON. Excuse me, Mr. Liebman. How much longer is
atement? I know your students are important, but these
ntlemen have things to do and we have many other wit·
who have traveled half the country to testify for 5. minutes
It are sort of retrying the Perry County thing and We are
.to have witnesses refute what you are saying and counter·
our own testimony, so we would appreciate it if you would
!;llm up quickly, please.
LIEBMAN. OK. Senator Denton, I will just stop right there
he conclusion simply that there are a number of statements
, r. Sessions made in explaining why he brought this prosecu-
hieh I simply wanted to straighten out for the record, and
'are a couple others which I will submit in wrQiing.
k you very much.
'prepared statement of Mr. Liebman follows:]
196
'rBS'l'l'HONY or
JAMBS 8. LIBBMAN
Assistant ProfesBor of Law
Columbia oniversity School of Law
My name ia James S. Liebman. Since January 1986 I

Assistant Professor of Law, Columbia Onlveraity School o¥'
From November 1979 to December 1985 % was :Asaistant
NAACP Legal Defense and Bducational Fund, Inc. (LOr).
capacity I was one of the attorneya who repre.ented
Sogue, Jr. Prior to Illy tenure at Lor, I was law clerk
Bonorable John Paul Stevens, Associate Justice, United
Supreme Court.
In January 1985, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III;
States 'Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama, bro~g
voter-fraud indictment against three black civil rights Ii_

in Perry County, Alabama -- Spencer Bogue, Jr., Evelyn Tur~e
Albert Turner. AS set out in the first two counts 'of

indictment itself, the sctions which Hr. Sessions charact~
aa "fraud" qre", out of ths three accused citizens' lon~i'8~a:·

efforts to enfranchise blacks in perry County, inclUding. th~
,the un of absentee ballots by the county' 8 large populAt1'
elderly, bed-ridden, and otten n,early illiterate black clt"fll
As you know, Hr. Chairman, att:er the court itsel'
diSmissed many of the counts in the indictment, a jury:,ot;,
and white Alabama citizens acqultted the three detendants)~
remaining charges. Nonetheless, the indictment of these"t
people was a serious and disruptive matter not
wrongly accused citizens, but also to the entire perty,C
Community, and particularly the black members of that comm, "
amoni whom the names Turner and Bogue were synonomoU8 wi
recent advent of their right -- an13 ability -- to vote.
Hr. sessions' prosecution of ~heo;"1'urner8 and Mr.
more than simply ill-founded and disruptive.
in the annals of federal voter-fraud prosecutionsl
cepartment dOCUments revesl that Mr. Sesslon'. prosecutlo~;~,
Turner'. and Sogue marked the tirst ~im.. a United States pro'
197
. o'rhad ever- applied a f~eralvoter"',fraud statul:.e to an aU&ged

b~entee-ballot conspiracy'that' did not involve corrupt public
ic'ials, virtually the first time a federal prosecutor had done
sit.uation in which the allegedly affected electoral
all involved strictly 100'41 offices, the first tilQe a
eral prosecutor had dorie so when so few allegedly illegal
than 30) were cast, and the first time the candidates
benef'itting from the fraud alleged by the GoVernment
'd lost the election. [These facts are based on the Justice
Prosecul:. 10n Manual, Exhibit 0 to the
Proaecu'tdon Motion, lind the Justice Department press
Exhibit R.] Indeed, for these reasons, Mr. Session's
~:tosecution appears to violate the Justice Department 1 a own
~~idelin&s
.. for
1 when federal prosecutors may bring this type of
"cHctment, and the manner in Which Mr. Session's office
nducted the investi9a~ion leading to the indictment clearly
2
lated the Department's guidelines in a number of respects.
~hy, then, did Mr. Su:sions pursue this ill-t'ounded,
~eeedented, and requlation-violating indietment? After
vestigatinq that perplexing question, defense counsel for the
rne-rs and Bogue were eompelled to file a 7S-page MOtiOn to
'miss the Indictment as the prOduct of An Invidiously Selective
secutfon, supported by sever,]l hundred pages of exhibits.
pTes of the entire _file of documents relating to -the Selective
9(secution Modon have been provided to the Committee, including
affidavits of Perry County citizens. The Motion
supporting documents detail two thingsl first, the innocent
-indeed, constitutionally proteeted voter assistance
behalf of elderly black citizens which were the
Sessions' investigationJ .!!!.!!, ncond and more
,..-.-.---
The various ways in which Turner/Hogue indictment violates
ustiee Department Guidelines are described in the original
election prosecution Motion at pp. 26-29, discussing the very
l,ClW priority given fraud _such as that allegedi_n the Turner/Hoque
indictmpn~ hy the Departmant'! F~J~cal ~roseeution of election
pffenses Manual (Exhibit Q).J
'hb,~ various ways in which the 'I'urner/Bogue 1nvesti9ation
"folated Justice Department guidelines, ht forth in its prosecu-
.t;i.~o ,Manual (Exhib~tO) are_set out in the original Selection
,Prosecution Motion at pp. 19-21.)
198
;mportant here, a series of well-documented

absentee voting procedures committed bY' and on
white and white~8upported Perry County candidates, which --.W
known to Mr. Sessions .... were D.!!!! investigated by him,

course, did they result in any indictments.
Selective Prosecution chiu'ges &re, of course,
lightly. Particularly in cases inVOlving prosecutions
States Attorneys, such chat'S' •• are rare, both becaus"qf,,('
integrity typically maintained by O.S. Attorneys and
the high legal hurdles which must be cleared before the
will even COnsider such charges. 'rhus, in orc!er t9 !II
jutHcial consideration of selective-prosecution ehar,9'~,
defendant must produce credible

prosecutor ~ selective -- that
dants but: not others similarly situated -- but also tb~t.c{"
prosecutor wu motivated by some intentionally invid~~y,
discriminatory purpose in sing11ng out

prosecution. Few defendants, as I said, even make such
against federal prOsecutors, and fewer still have such
taken seriously 'by the courts.
In this respect, as well,
tion of the Turners and Hogue verges on the unique.
9ons1der1ng the selective-prosecution papers filed
defendants in this case, and conducting a day long
matter, the United States Magistrate for the Southern
Alabama concluded that defendant.s had satisfied t.he
of their burden to get a heAring on selective
producing credible evidence in this record that,
Turner/Hogue indiotment, "the Government [_ ... Mr. Sessiops',9,
__ ] 'was activated by constitutionally impermiSsible motive~iJ
as racial ••• discrirrdnation." Second, the Magist.rate fou?_(l,'~t'
"[t)here is credible e'lidence adduC'ed by the Defendant",-th.

numbor of abeen'tee ballots cast in perry County in Sep~"
UU, C'ontdned irregUlarities related to C'andidates-itt.a')
witnessing, attestation, and mailing'; .,. that the prepar'at.1:~,
some of these ballots likely was oonneC'ted with voter •••~~f~
199
carried out by groups in Perry County which are 1edby

i~es, and ••• that these ballot irregularities have not been
~estig'ated, nor the indiv1.duals apparently connected with. the
prosecuted." {May 24, 1985, Recommendation, at 3, see
at 6, 8.]
Although the Magistrate, and the United States District
the Magistrate reported, did not talee the drastic
of dismissing the indictment, both jUdicial officers ~
the extraordinary precaution of admoniShing Mr. Sessions to

charges snd proof at trial confined within the bounds of
and particularly the constitution: and when he failed to
'so; the District Judge dismissed more than half of the counts
the indictment in the middle of trial as lackin9 in any
identiary suppOrt. Subsequently, of course, the jury acquitted
e three ~efen~ants of all remaining charges.
I, of course, ~o not have the time here to describe all the
fraud on behalf of whfte, 'and white supported,
Mr. Sessions failed to investigate, while
ill-conceived indictment of Albert and Evelyn Turner
Spencer Bogue. A few examples will have to speak for the
'tothers detailed i~ the Motion and supporting papers1
First, although Mr. Sessions repeatedly repre.ented to the
~drt and to the pUblic that his office investigated the circum-
'lltd:e:s of each and every absentee ballot voted in the September
a~election which r,flected a change from one candidate to
6ther, and 'that he did not, as charged, confine his investiga-
8li 'to absentee-ballot changes from white or white-supported
to black candidates,' the facts, pure and simply, are
s' , for example, an elderly black resident of

Alabama distinctly remembers voting for Setzer Howard,
Political ally of the Turners 'and Bog~e, for the poeitionof
Unty Commissioner. In all other respects, Ms. S voted for
• slate of'ficially suppOrted by the county's white voter
Ms. S then turned over her ballot to Uniontown Mayor
for mailing. Mr. Bayden has long been politically
200
oppoaed to the rurnet" and Bogue and supported by the white vo~
groups in the area. When H8. S' I. ball 0 t wu opene!!;

eleotion day, the "Xli tor Setzer Howard had been "whited out'"
Ma. S' has never. had "white out" or "liquid paper"!n ~"
rUt'al home where she spends most of her time because of

health ..... and a new ·x ll , i n a different color ink, had
placed b.. ide Reese BU11ngslea's name. Billingslea, I should J
was t.h~ candidate the white groups successfully' supported 4gat
.Setzer Howard.
When que.tiened by a defense investigator, Ms.
adamantly insisted that. she voted for Boward and never
anyone to change that. vote to Billingslea. Ms. s:
indicated that ahe previously informed the rBI of these
but that Mr. Sessions did not follow up on the On-its-face
suspicious, and (as it turns out) lraudulent-in-lact change
ber ballot. Nor di~ Mr. Sessions require Ms. S
before the grand jur~ about this change from a ~-support~~,;;
a .!2.ll.!-supported candidate. [see Exhibita TT, WW.J
Similarly, the ballot of S: M ., a white
county citizen, reveals a vote for Setzer BOward Which,
and replaced with a new, different-colored "x"
Billingslea -- once again conforming the ballot to the
•
slate of white and white-supported candidates officially
by the white voter groups in the area. When asked about
by a defense investigator, Hs. H' like Ms. S
voted for Boward, not Billingslea, and that she had
nor consented to any changes in the ballot. Hore
here, MS. 1'1' I obviOUSly altered ballot
investigated by Hr. Bession's office.
Third, although the absentee ballots
senior citizens center in Uniontown, Alabama were voteq
signed in the same color ~e1t-tip pen with what appears Q~;
taoe -- en. expert hen.writl~ enaly.1s oonfirme. -- w.. the,." .•. ,:~,
handwriting, that of Andrew ~Yden, who alaowitnessed sac
tho.e ballot., and although al-1 those ballots were identi,9'"
voted for the sue White-supported slate and simultal':!e,q'~'
201
mailed to the Perry county Clerk, MAry Auburti~, from Montgomery,

Alabama, scores of miles away, E2Q! of the patrons of theeentar
were ever questioned by Mr. Sessions' investigators. When some of
the alleged voters'!!!.! questioned by defense investigators,
their answers clearly demOnstrated that aome had no idea for whom
they had voted. and hone had any recollection of signing the form
necessary to apply to vote absentee. [Exhibit TT, pp. 2-4, esp.
E, J.
Even more curious, at least three of the ballots witnessed
by Mr. Bayden and his employees and voted for the white slate
showed on their faces that they were "witnessed" ~ days ~
they were supposedly voted and mailed in by the voters, and,

indeed, a c!!l after they were marked "receiVed" by the office of
county clerk, Mary Auburtin -- thus, notwithstanding the require-
ment that the ballot be witnessed simUltaneously with the voter's
marking and signing the ballot. [Exhibits OO-RR. I Not only did
MS. Auburtin's office officially count these faoially fraudulent
': -·votes for the white slate, but Mr.·· Sessions thereafter failed to
inquire of any of the 3 alleged voters about how Mr. Hayden and
his employees came to witness the ballots days after-they were
-'supposedly voted.
Flfth, Mr. Session's office, although repeatedly informed of
matter, made no investigative inquiry whatsoever into the
fact that Ms. Auburtin, in direct violation of her own proce-
state law, and, apparently, federal voter-fraud provi-
took it upon herself to mail out campaign literature
favoring white-supported candidate Reese Bil11ngslea simulta-
neously with, and -sometimes in the same official envelopes as,
the absentee ballots themselves. {Exhibit U. J As a resUlt,
large numbers of black absentee voters, many of whom were voting
the fi"rst time and have trouble reading, immediately filled
their ballots fotBillingslea, notwithstanding their support
the alternative slate of candidates which included
Bi~lingslea's op~onent Setzer Roward. Indeed, almost ail the
'I' ballot changes for which the three defendants were indicted
turned out at trial to be the voter's own or consented-to changes
202
from BillIngslea to Boward prompted by the vo~erls discovery tn'

they were not obliged to vote for Billingslea
that his literature accompanied their ballots.
Sixth, Ms. Auburtin' 8 office received
absentee votes of white tormer residents of the county (ln~:
1ng, for example, the 101'\9 time superintendent ofthelQ_

school system), whom it was well known -- as was apparent,
the addresses on the ballots themselves -.
residents of the county and hadn't been for years.
Affidavit of Robert Turner, with attachment a] • Again,'
ballots were facially suspect, given the voterls oath of
dency in the County, yet. again, Mr. Sessions made
all to investigate these patent voter irregularitie8fav~ring:
white slate.
I could go on, Mr. Chairman, but 1 fear I've taken
of the Committee's time already. What 1 hope has become
that even while pursuing 4 baseless indictment a9ainst~bk
civil right workers who assisted elderly ~ voters to exe;q

their h,ard-won right to vote in favor of ~ candidate~':;'J
Sessions had before him, but failed to investigate, aUblfto!~'

evidence of white voter fraud -- fraud which affected t~
absentee balloting process with which, Mr. Sessions., w,

concerned when it allegedly favored losing black candidates
which he utterly ignored when it actually propelled
white-supported candidates into office.
Mr. Chairman, this pattern of racially selective
of the laws of this land by Mr. Sessions was ,distr!ssing:e~~ "}
once it came to light. What was even more distressing 4bo~~
conduct of this case, however, is the fact that Mr. sesai.~,~
an officer of the United States Government

courts, and now a nominee for lifetime tenure as a
in my opinion, misrepresented the facts of this
in. documents filed by him in court. Thus, notwith8tand~n
failure to investigate, for example, the highly visible~,a,;,t
voting and apparently fraudulent witnessing of pro-whlte,_,~.
by uniontown Mayor Andrew Bayden, t,he counting of !?bV

improper out-ot-county and imprhpertY witnessed
203
clerk Auburtin, the erasure and chang-e ot E

vote from setzer Boward to whit-It-backed Reese
and the even more obvious and suspicious ·white out"
S i S vote for Boward and substitution for it of a
81111n98188, Mr. Sessions made the fOllowing unqualified
d inC'or~eC't representations to the courtr First, Mr. Sessions
"every ballot- -- here, Mr. Sessions himself has
word every -- "every ballot, whether it had been
led by the defendants or not, was examined to see if it had
'n altered in any way." Hr. Sessions represented to the Court,
"ralll" those votera whose ballots had suspicious
them "were interviewed", and, third, and most
Mr. Sessions represented to the court that ill
had been altered without the permission of the voters
change to a Black candidate supported by the defen-
[Government's June 14, 1985 Response to Objection to
for Protective Action).
It is one thing -- II. very bad thing -- Hr. Chairman, to
the laws of this co~ntry to indict civil rights workers
nothing more nor less than assisting elderly blacks to
cise their franchise. There, however, such behavior is, at
-- as it was in this case -- by the good se'nse of
rican jurors, who ultimately pass on the validity of such
lctments. It is quite another thing, however, to exercise
t prosecutive power selectively, apparently on the basis of
and then, when called to account for it to misstate the
to a court. In matters such as this -- as in all matters
acting the integrity of our judicial system and its jUdges --
systero ~imply cannot function if the people involved do not
d themselves to a hi9her standard of conduct' than Mr. Sessions
evidenced here.
204
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Liebman. Please
questions.
For your information, Senator Kennedy informed me Y"
that he has no problem with the fact that Mr. Sessions
that case to trial and he has reviewed it extensively. That"
piece of i n f o r m a t i o n . , , ,
Regarding the absentee votes, in 1982 in Perry Count
are rough figures-out of something like 5,000 or 6,000 ,"
there were 1,000 absentee votes. In Jefferson County, th
county in Alabama, which includes the city of Birmingh
1982 election, to give you some comparability in the priIria
were about 250,000 votes cast, with 250 absentee ballots" Iii
as compared to 1 in 6. , "
Mr. Siegelman, who was going to run against me and'li'
retired, was secretary of state for the State of Aiabama.
thing is trying to clean up voter fraud. He is a Democrat
State of Alabama.
A State senator, one of the most prominent Republicans"
State legislature, his principal thing is to clean ul' voterf'
Alabama. I am not saying it is black. I am not saymg it is
am saying that both Democrats and Republicans realize
voter fraud in Alabama and are making an effort biparti,
clean it up, and I dispute what you have in your prepared
ny.
Fact one, you said that theU.S. magistrate for theSol~
trict of Alabama concluded, in reference to the Turner,
dictment, that "The government"-meaninl' Mr. Sessions'
"was activated by constitutionally unpermlssible moth(e~
racial discrimination." ".
I have the copy of the magistrate's ruling and nowherli'"
that kind of findin~ that you have cited appear. There ,is
ence to anything like that, so I question the premises f'
you are coming.
Mr. LIEBMAN. If I may respond, Mr. Chairman. You We
that a thousand people did vote in that 1982 primary e
absentee ballot. Of course, of those, approximately one(t
white absentee voters and these are from the figures or
clerk.
I would just point out that that number dropped frOIn 1~
of course, no investigation was conducted, to just over 775 a
ballots in 1984, so--
Senator DENTON. Compared to 250 out of 250,000.
Mr. LIEBMAN. All I am pointing out is that the number
so there was not-- ":,,:,,,,~
Senator DENTON. I realize that they dropped but the p
is still ridiculously high and that is true with a liberal"
servative.
Mr. LIEBMAN. Well, high or low, the fact is that many
number, of those voters are white absentee voters, and th
were not investigated. The percentage of absentee votes
white and black is approximately the same as the percent
people in the population of the county, that is there are
high a percentage of white absentee ballots voted as
white people living in that county.
205
e is a lot of testimony, included in a Lani Guinier's state-
'ere, which indicates why a large number of blacks in that
.ve to vote absentee, which goes to the fact that a very high
'tage of the blacks in that area are now very elderly. It is
demographic fact. There is no public transportation; they
tural areas; many of them work outside of the county and
ave to vote absentee. There are demographic differences,
between Jefferson County and Perry County.
'getting to the-- .
r DENTON. You can come on again, but I just have to get
other witnesses. You have used Mrs. Green as an example
one who just wanted to vote like you all. Mrs. Green did not
at in her affidavit. Mrs. Green said that her vote was
d and that she was angry about it.
IEBMAN. She said that under oath, Your Honor, at the trial.
affidavits were taken by FBI agents and we have put in a lot
. ony that indicates that the FBI agent went up to the voter
'd, "Ms. Green, your ballot has been tampered with," leading
ed witness to give cautious statements to the FBI.
ator DENTON. OK. We are going to have a lot of witnesses
,ere there in Perry County with the FBI, with the voters, who
ing to testify later. We do not need a man from Columbia
sity to testify about hearsay. You said you are going to tell
eople about hearsay. Go ahead and tell them, because that is
ou are using right now. '
IEBMAN. If I could just respond very briefly, Mr. Chairman.
hat I am basing this on are the statements of--
qr DENTON. Would you respond to the accusation about the
ate and your prepared thing?
,IEBMAN. I was just getting to that when you asked me the
estion, Mr. Chairman. I would just turn your attention to
of that recommeIidation which you have stated that you
fore you. It states that the second element of a selective
tion case requires a showing "that the Government was ac-
t,by consitutionallr impermissible motive such as racial or
)IS discrimination: You have got to prove that as well as se-
, in order to get a hearing on selective prosecution.
magistrate then said at pages 6 and 7 that he would give a
g to the defendants who brought this case because he found
I of the requirements for selective prosecution charge were
, eluding this one that he lists as invidiousness-"a showing
e government was activated by constitutionally impermissi-
tives such as racial or religious discrimination:' We had to
at burden in order for him to find that there was a right to
'g and he found on pages 6 and 7 that there was a right to
. g if the government was going to proceed with certain
falleged fraud, for example having to do with notarization,
.to do with voter--
or DENTON: Mr. Liebman, you are not addressing the ques-
e said that in your prepared testimony you were quoted as
!g that the U.S. magistrate concluded things that he did not
de, and what you are addressing now has nothing to do with
ou said he concluded, that the Government was activated by
206
constitutionally impermissible motives such as racial if
tion. . "~\
Mr. LIEBMAN. That is a quotation, Mr. Chairman, frohi
-
the recommendations. Those are not my words. Those'
magistrate. ', . ,.
Senator DENTON, But page 2 refers to burden of proof;
Mr. LIEBMAN; And then at pages 6 and 7 he said
burden of proof; we had to prove that and he found
".t
prove i~. If you put th~se two to¥et~e.r, Mr; ChairI:na~!
means IS that we established the InvIdIOUSneSs requIrenl'
that the Government "was activated by constitutional i
ble motives such as racial or religious"--
Senator DENTON. I am advised that you represented .a
proof as a finding and if you want to come back after. t
testify, unlesS Senator Heflin wants to question you, you
come, but I cannot hold up everybody else for further deb..
Senator. . '
Senator HEFLIN. I have one question. The relevancy ory
mony is based on the fact that you were one of the trial'
and you were an attorney representing Mr. Spencer Hogue
correct? ... ',
Mr. LIEBMAN. Yes; Senator Heflin, I want to make thatd
Senator HEFLIN. If you can find time to come back, r:
would be d e s i r a b l e . . '," Ii'
Mr. LIEBMAN. OK. Thank you very much. . ....,"
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, Professor Lieb .
Mr. Keeney is no longer here to introduce you a1l1no,
does someone wish to assume that, introduce the others?,';
Mr. KOWALSKI. Mr. Chairman, I am Barry Kowi"'sk¥
Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division. I am the De
of the Criminal Section.
With us also today are Mr. Albert Glenn, who is ana
the Criminal Section, and Mr. Daniel Bel!, who is aooth
Chief in the Criminal Section. Also here from the Civil Ri
sion Voting Section is Mr. Hancock. . ...n
Senator DENTON. Does anyone have a statement to rri"ll!
Mr. HANCOCK. Senator Denton and Senator Heflin;',·'
Hancock and I do not have a prepared statement but II'
to make a statement in light of the opening state:rhel?-~.
made, Senator D e n t o n ; · · · ·
I want the committee to be aware of why I am heret"
not volunteered to offer testimony either in favor of J~
nomination or in opposition to Mr. Sessions' nominatioIi;
sponsibility in the Civil Rights Division is to enforce.·'t
Rights Act of 1965. :
I have been employed by the division for almost 16
the past 10 years I have been enforcing the Voting R~.
have a' fairly significant amount of litigation in the. il: .
trict of Alabama and we also have nonlitigative assignml1,
southern district in connection with the use of Federal"
and' Federal examiners, so I have had. a good bit oCElX
the southern district of A l a b a m a . "
207
',~as~k that we have brought in the southern district of Ala-
\ie' been cases that in some instances have lingered for a
, ther. have been tough ones to resolve. I know you all are
Moblie litigation that dragged on for a number of years.
ave been litigating similar cases against Marengo County,
las County, AL, that we initially filed in 1978 and do not
'al resolution yet.
I say that I have had a substantial amount of experience
'ng cases in the southern district of Alabama. However, I
hasized to your staff that I have a limited knowledge of
ons himself.
eceived a calJ from the staff of this committee earlier this
d I was asked to talk to the staff about Mr. Sessions'
tions to be a Federal district court judge, and I refused to
refused to do so in part in conform1ty with the longstand-
'tion that attorneys m the Department of Justice do not get
'in these matters; and second, I told the staff that I
that I had very little information that would be relevant to
mittee's considerations.
arch 12 I received a call from an official of the Department
ice notifying me that the staff of the committee wished to
,me on an informal basis regarding the qualifications of Jeff
s,to be U.S. attorney. I "(lain emphas1zed that I thought
'had little to add, but that 1f the department wanted me to
;before the staff on that basis to share with them any infor-
'that I might have, I would agree to do it.
: structions were that the session was to be informal, that I
answer questions to the best of my recollection, that I was
've the best shot I could at answering the questions that
'pad.
',lreceived that notice, I was told that the interview would
be in approximately 1 hour and that I was to be prepared
within a half hour after receiving the phone call.
r appeared before the staff of the committee, there was a
tatlve of Senator Biden's staff and Senator Thurmond's
,nhe testimony was not to be-the discussion was not to be
but, rather, was to be sworn testimony in the form of a
n.
ked questions about my experience in the Southern Dis-
abama, in particular the matter at issue was an investi-
hat the Civil Rights Division had requested be done by the
Bureau of Investigation, which later was canceled at the
" of the U.S. attorney.
said throughout that deposition that my recolJection of
ent was very vague, although-and I was not even able to
tinvestigation it was. My recolJection at the time was that
estigation occurred in Conecuh County, AL, and that it oc-
at the time that Mr. Sessions was the U.S. attorney.
e time that I offered that statement to the staff, those state-
\Vere true to the best of my recollection at the time. Again,
y understanding that this was to be a discussion between
the staff; I later learned, however, that the information
resented at that time was presented to this committee and I
to make sure that all of the information presented was ac-
208
curate, and again I emphasize to you that I made no sec"et'
fact at the time of my testimony that I did not have clea~ t.
tion of all of the event in its entirety. . . . '('
I do say, however, that it was my recollection at the' time
occurred while Mr. Sessions was the U.S. attorney. . '. '.'", ,
Following that testimony, I initiated an investigation wit
Department of Justice to determine whether the testimo#~
all respects accurate. I requested that the Federal Burel\\li'
tigation do a review of all of its files of investigations in't
ern district of Alabama for a period from 1979 to 19~2j '"
was confident that this event did in fact occur and I wasie
tpat it did occur within that 4·year period.
I also .requested the staff of the Voting Section tosearcb;,
that we maintain about a jurisdiction in the southernd
Alabama, and I emphasize to you that that search is fair!
tial, although there are only 13 counties in the southern ,
Alabama, the enforcement of the Voting Rights Act hasrree
on for ZO-some years and we have a voluminous aniountof"
about the southern district of Alabama. "',
Late Friday evening I was told that the results of th'
showed that we had in fact requested an investigation<
been stopped at the direction of the U.S. attorney, but th,
vestigation occurred in Clarke County, AL, and that thei'
tion occurred in May 1980, which was prior to the time;',
Sessions became U.S. attorney. . '::
After learnillg that my recollection that I presentedt1(
week was wrong, I immediately over the weekend revie .
the records that were available to me and drafted a,ll'
which a member of my staff came in the office on Sllrtll
for me and I had it available to present to you the
Monday morning. ' , ' ',y
I also called Mr. Sessions to tell him personally oQ-
morning that my prior recollection was in error, and I tell
that it was in error and I have previously apologized"
sions fOr that mistake and I apologize to this committe'e,:.';
I do emphasize to you, however, that when I presente!!,
mony before the staff last week, particularly under the- "
with which I was required to testify, it was true to the
recollection. _
I would request that the declaration that I presented,
terday be made a part of this record and I can stat.e
dence that that declaration is right and Mr. Sessions w
involved with the matter about which I testified last w
Senator DENTON. Your declaration will be put in
without objection.
[The declaration referred to follows:]
209
U.S. Department or Justice

Civil RighlS Division
March 17, 1986
table Strom Thurmond

rable Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
te Committee on the Judiciary
Dirksen Senate Office Building
Lngton, D.C. 20510
Re: Nomination of Jefferson B. SesSions III for
the position of United Statu Disc'rict Judge
~ Senators Thurmond and Biden:
On March 12, 1986, I provided information to the staff
he'Judiciary Committee concernlng a voting investigation
Ucted 1n the Southern District of Alabama. I stated my
tef that Mr. Sesai.ons was the United States Attorney at
time that the investigation was cO'nducted. A subsequent
rds search conducted at my request has revealed that
Sessions was not the United States Attorney at the time
'he investigation. and thus t am submitting the enclosed
ration to correct my prior testimony. I request that i£
ior testimony is to be considered by the Committee, such
ony be supplemented by the information set forth in ,the
ration.
Departmental attorney J. Gerald Hebert also addressed
voting investigation in his testimony before the Committee
ten 13, 1986. Mr. Hebert's recollection has b,een refreshed
Ie",results- of our records search and, at his request, I
rwarding his declaration to correct his testimony.
We apologize for any inconvenience caused to Mr. Sess ions
'is Committee by the prior inaccurate testimony. I am
Lilg to provide additional testimo"ny if it would be helpful
li1:ther clarifying this matter.
Sincerely,
Paul F. Hancock
As s is tant: Eo r Li t 19a t ion
Vat i ng Sect ion
210
DECLARATION OF PAUL F. HANCOCK

\' .,~
1. My name is Paul F. Hancock. I have been employecf";

by the Civll Rights Division of the Department of Justice
since 1970 and have occupied the- position of Assistant for
Llctg-ation Lothe Division's Voting S-eotian since 1976. ,L._"
make this Declaration for submission to the Senate Committee
on the Judiciary in connect ion wi th the naninad.on of
Jefferson B. Sessions III for the position of United States.::,_~,
District Judge for the Southern District of Alabama. In .,
particular, this Declaration Is submitted to correct and
clarify infot1llation that I presented to the staff of the
C~mlttee on March 12. 1986. .
2. On March 12, 1986, at approximately 1:15 p~m.-. ott,'
was advised by an official of the Department of·Just'iee ttta:
a member of the Judiciary Committe'e had reques"tedthatt~~"
Department permit the staff of the Commi~tee. to di8cu8s,~t
me, on an informal basis, certain factual in£ot'lllation beli~
to be relevant to the noad.nation of Jefferson B. Sessions Irl.
I f·urther was advised that the Department had determined'to
permit the interview and that a meeting had been scheduled
for 2:15 p.m. on that same day.
3. When I <1lrrived for the scheduled meeting, I
learned that the discussion was not informal but that the:·~,."
staff desired to examine me under oath and that a tranaerip~\i
of such. testimony mi.glit be presented to the Committee, on'-, '
Judiciary ,to cons ider in connection with the pending conti
t ion proeeedings.
4. The primary topic of my testimony concerned an
investigation, conducted by the Federal Bureau of Invest!.
of alleged" voting irregularities, in a county located wi·th-t.
the Southern District of Alabama. I testified that 'th'e;'i\'
i-nvest1.gation had been requested by the Civil Rights Divis,::
and that the United States Attorney for the Southern Dis'tJ;'4:
of Alabama subsequently directed the Federal Bureau of, Inve
gation, without prior approval from th'e Civil R,ights _Divl~s"i,
not to conduct the requested investigation. AlthoughP \ i :"t
emphasized that my recolle~,tion of the. det.ails of this :na\~
were unclear, I seated that the United States 'Attorney:'tql(;,
was Mr. Sessions and that, to the best of my recollection·,~~
the investigation at issue was ,one to be conducted in Con~~
County. Alabama. At the time I presented this testimony,'j<l
was true to the best of my knowle,dge, recollectio.n and .b.eU.~
--
211
·2·
5. Inasmuch as the subject FBI investigation may be an

of relevance to these confirmation proceedings, and since
collection of the issue was unclear, I 8ubs~uently deter..
to conduct a thorough review of Departmental records to
ine if any records regarding the issue were 1n exi.stence.
les of matters in Conecuh County. Alabama revealed no
ation regarding an FBI investigation cancelled by the
, States Attorney and, thus, I requested a staff member. to
the Voting Section files for each county in the Southern
lct of Alabama. The review encompassed the period from 1979
'8;h 1982 since I was confident that the investigation at
occurred during that t1rne ·period. The Civil Rights
'on also reques'ted that the FBI conduct a sl.!llUar review
records of voting investigations in the Southern
ct of Alabama •
... _.~ .. ----
6. The search of the Voting Sect ion records eonf irmed
'an FBI voting rights investigation requested by the
1 Rights Division had been cancelled, without proper
rHy, by the Untted States Attorney for the Southern
ict of Alabama: but the search rwe'll1ed two errors in my
testimony. First and most importantly, the incumbent
d' States Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama
ncelled the investigation was not Jefferson Sessions,
predecessor in the position, William A. Kimbrough, Jr.
" the investigation was to be conducted in Clarke
, , Alabama,not Conecuh County.
7. Appended to this Declaration as Attachment A is a
andum da ted May 12, 1980, from the Director of the FBI to
'uistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division
ing a report dated May 8, 1980. The report states that
',am A. Kimbrough, Jr •• U. S. Attorney, Southern District
bama • • • instructed the Mobile Division of the Federal
of Investigation'to discontinue its current investiga-
Appended to this Declaration as Attachment B is a
ndum that r forwarded to the Chief of the Voting Section
22, 1980, concerning Mr. Kimbrough's effort to cancel
·vestigation.
8. Following my May 22, 1980, telephone conversation
r. Kimbrough. the FBI investigation of voting matters in
County was resumed. On June 9, 1980, the Director of
1 submitted a report of the investigation. On September
80. the United $tates instituted legsl pt"oceedings
t Clarke County pursuant to Sections 2 and 5 of the
Rights Act, 42 U.S.C. 1973, 1.973c. United States v.
e Count;y Commission, eiv. Action No. 80-0547-P (S.O.
The Sect ton 5 claim was resolved by an or-der of the
i I
212
- 3 -
three-judge Court entered on October 24, 1980.

claim was res,olved by,an order entered onAprll
The United Sta~e. prevailed on both claims.
, , . :' ., :"
" ' , '. . - , '~ ; ':;
9. The':'r'eoord "review has refreshed my, reco'14:ce'
and 1 now am able" to state with certainty that'the.':;'l.'j,U
concerning the·.·United States Attorney's attempt to "ca,'
FBI investigation (the tuue about which I testifiedi,;()
12, 1986)ar988 in Clarke County. Alabama, noe:ConeC\1n.
also am able to state with certainty that Jefferson. B::'i:
Sesalons lIt had no involvement in this matter. The'1i
Clarke CountY:lrwestlgation' was ,the only t'lma tha~tl'.,h·
experienced ,ai',United ',States. Attorney: -atte:np,tingto. can
FBI lnvestlgatLQn"'::reque,ii.t:l!!d, by the.',i91vll 'Rights ,I?i~$,:1:
In other wordsi)'I:, have no"knowledge:"of Mr. Ses8ions-',:a~
to cancel, or:£ri "any .way ,interfere, with a Civil Right
Div1s1on lrwue1&ation of ,voting matters in the Soothe'
District of Alabama.
10. I apologize for any inconvenience caused
Mr. Sessions or this CQllImittee bY' my prior testi1llOny'.:'/'1
necessary to further cli1rify this,matter, I am, availab':!",
answer any questions that this Committee or its staff"JIl~;
have. :-1'
Pursuan~ to the provisions of 28 U.S,C.
under penalty of perjury -that the foregoing is
correct.
"Executed on March 16, 1986.

213
~ ~
Ul ST....T U OOV£RNMeN't UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT
FEDER ..." BURtAU
or JUSTICE
or INVllSTIOATION
'
.fob t!J't
b
Jl.e."'~'J.b\ 1
illl.aqt o\ttornet Oellonl DAn: 5/12/60 \
VIL RIGHTS DIVISION·
ATTN: BHIBLA DELANEY
VOTING SECTION
RICE COUNTY COldMISSION, GROVE

, ALABAMA l tJKKNOWN vtcrIMS
XL RIGHTS--ELECTIOH LAWS
Rererencll I_ IIllde to your Illemorindulli dlted 3/10(80

()'oU~mll W' 166_3:47 1.
,- DSD; 151m: eo . \
ted _ Thele518180 .. t _~.r~'~h".~~~p;o:~~~~~~~~~~L!llI::=====:-;
II eneloaed one eepy, MQBXI E
A. CJ 1'hlll olover. the preliminary Invllatlgation .nd no ry11.hllf action concernlnl

" full Inve.Llrotion will ~II taken by this Bureall IInlest the Department 80 dLreeta.
B. 0 The lnveatlgetlon 18 Qontlnlling end you wl\l be l'urnlahed caple. or

reporte .. they aTe received.
C. MThll Inve,tlg.lIon ,equested by YOli lIu now boeR oOlllllleted. Unlau

..!vleed to the (lontral')' no fwther lnqulrlea will be made by till, Bureau.
O. CJ Pursuant to lnstluetions luued lIy tlla Oel"rtment., no InvuHratlon wlll

be oOlldllcted In thh IIIlltter unleu epeoWoally dlreeted by tlla De~artment,
E, 0 Plena advlee whsther YOII deelre any fUT~her Invutl,etlon,
F. 0 ThI, Is eubmltted for your lnl'ormatlol'l and you will be advised of further
veloplll6nte.
o.
0 'I'hle i. sulllnitted for your Inrormetlon and ne rurthor Inveetlgat\on will
c<i-nduoted unleae epeclficeUy requuted by tile Department;
H. 0 Thla oovers the receipt or a complaint and no further aotlon wllllle

nby tills Bureau Ilnleu the Department so dlreets.
, (,)
11IM 2\l \980

214
UNt'/'IW S'J'A'J'I~S 1J1~I'Alt'I'M I,:j\;'l' (JIo' J US'I'f<a~

."t:VIWAI. llUlll~AU 0'" lNVWl'l'IGATIOX
Mobile, ,Alabama
May a, 1980
C.I..ARKE "COUNTY COMMISSION

GROVE HILL~ ALABAMA~
UNKNOWN VICTIMS •
CIVIL RIGHTS - ELECTION LAWS
On May 1, 1980, William A. Rimbrough, Jr • ., U'"

Attorney, Southern District of 'Alabama, .Mobile, a'dvise..ct
has diseussed this matter with Depart.mentalattorneya;.~~,
Rights Division, u. S. Department' of Just'ice, Washingt~
D. C. and in, view of the %:ecent Supr!!Ine' Court ~ec18~on'~'
earning 01 ty and county governments, instructed the '"Mo
Division of the Federal"Bureau of Investigation 'to'di8C~
its current investigation.
This document contains neither recommendations nor

conclusions of' the FBI. It is the property of thB ,_/
FHI and is loaned to your agency; it and its conten
are not to be distributed outside your agency.
l'
215
emorandum ATTACHMENT a
Olarke County. Alabama

FBI Investigation .... 22 MAl' \SaO
ae;alci'W~ jones aut P. Hancocit

Chief. Votlpg8eotlon Assistant tor Litigation
Voting Seation
I {elep~one4 Un1te~ States Attorney Kimbrough on May 22,

• to determtne "it he had instruoted the Bureau not to
at 'the.~nve8t~gatlon we; had requested and.~lf 80, why he
suoh instruotions. Mr. Kimbrough said that'he did instruct
ureaunot to conduotthe investigation. He said he had
8cussed the matter with anyone from our Section but thOUght
:the invest!gatlon should not be oonducted tor the following
A. Miriam Eisenstein told him that we are re-

evaluating our voting litigation in light
or MQJ2.ili. .. .
~B. The School Board has already given us a lot
or information.
C. We should not ask the Bureau to get"information
from a party to a lawsuit, or a party to a
potential lawsuit.
--I explained that the investigation concerns a Section 5
,and is unaffeoted by Mobile; that we have no lawsuit
"t C~arke county; that we-neid the information to enforce
on. 5; and that although the county has given us !ntormation,"
ed to--clear up unanswered question8- •. At ,one point Mr. Kimbrough
. llWell Paul, you and I d.onlt always see eye-to-eye on- ho"w
,t ,th.1!1gs done." _ (An obvious reference to Marengo)
1 aaked Mr. Kimbrough to. approach. U1$ 1t he haa ant
ems with 1nvest~gation8 we request but not to oanoer
nveatigatlon without our concurrence. He agreed to
) and apolpglzed for oancelling this invest~gatlon.
d,he wo~ld call the FBI agent responsible tor the.
ttgatlon and'tell hlmto conduct the invest~gatlon.
1 telephoned Gene Hatfield ot the Bureauts Civil
_,~;Unit and requested "that the" invest~gat1on be OOlllple.ted.
"'I believe tbat it was clearly improper for Mr.. Kimbro~~
cel the investigation without our ooncurrence. Howe-ver,
eve that the lll8tte;r has been resolved and that it 1s
eoeaaary to take any o:h~~"a~tion at this, time.
216
DECLARATION OF J,' GERALQ HEBE1<T
1. My name is J. Gerald Hebert and I am a senior

trial attorney in the,Voting Section, Civil Rights Division,
United States-Department of Justice. I have been a trial
attorney in the· Civil Rights Division of the Department()f
Justice since 1~73. I make this Declaration- for submission
to the Senate COmmittee on the Judiciary -in connection with
the nomination of Jefferson B. Sessions III for appointment
to the position of United States Distt'ict JUd~e ,for the
Southern District of Alabama. In particular,this Declaratio
is submitted to correct and clarify information 1 provided to:
the Committee at the hearing held on March 13, 1986.
2. In mY,March 13th tescimony, the state:nent of ,my,
colleague, Mr. Paul F. lfancock, was" brought to my attention,
Mr. Hancock's referenced testimony concerned a voting
investigation in the Southern District of Alabama. I ,was
asked if I agreed with Mr. Hancock's testimony, I answered
that my own recollection of that matter was consistent with'
Mr, Hancock's, When I rendered that testimony, it was true
to the best of my knowledge, recollection and belief.
3. Subsequent to my testimony, I have reviewed the
dOcuments attached to the Declaration of Paul F. Hancock.
Those documents show that Mr. Jefferson Sessions was not the
United States Attorney involved in blocking the voting inve~ti~
gation conducted in the Southern District of Alabama and that,
in fact, it w,as his predecessor in office, Those documents
also show that the county invoJ,ved was Clarke- County and not
Conecuh County, My testimony before the Senate 'JudicL!fry
Committee ratifying that of Mr, Hancock's, therefore, was in
error. My recollection on this matter has now been refreshed
1 have no knowledge that Mr. Sessions eVer interfered_ wi,~~_ ,;:'
any voting investigations in the Southern District of Ala;b'
4. This reve is tion conce rning the, non- i nvo lvement
Mr. Jefferson Sessions in interfering in any voting inv~s,t:
tions in the Southern District of Alabama -dOes not affect.: i
any way my other testimony rendered before the Senate Judicl
Committee on March 13, 1986.
5. I apologize for any inconvenience caused
Mr. Sessions or 'this Committee by my prior testimony ... l.~>'<,
necessary to further clarify this matter, I am- available-':fd
answer any questions that this Committee or its staff might
have.
pur,~uant to the provisions of 28 U.S.C.
under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is
217
"ator DENTON. Are you fmished?
NCOCK. I have nothing else to say.
tOr DENTON. Mr. Hancock, it was not at my initiative that
re questioned before this hearing and by the staff. I had no
ge that that had been initiated. Indeed, the shuffling of
s which has occurred on the first hearing and the one that
d today has made it virtually impossible for me to know
e players are going to be until just before I ~ home at night
trymg to figure out all day. They were working here most of
',ht trying to figure this out, hence my mistake when I was
lting with my staff member, I did not even know that Profes-
ellman, although he said he Was-I did not hear him say it-
:0; opportunity to read until I got here this morning becallse
ff was still being prepared because of the shifts in witnesses,
· g but some veryoasic things about what was going to ll'0 on
· In other words, I defer to Senator Heflin in having remmded
at Professor Liebman' was indeed involved in that case and I
· the point and said we have people who were who will testify
o on. I was dead wrong on that.
o:not have any malice against you for what haPl'ened to you. I
;nothing but sympathy for your coming and being forced and
red into giving your best recollection to something which, in
ading, you were very tentative about saying. My chagrin
from what was made out of your statement and Mr. Hebert's
.. 'g Mr. Sessions.
I I have no reservations about ,our conduct or the fact that
l!d to give things to the best 0 your memory, and I believe
d so. Are you satisfied with my-....,
,HANCOCK. I am satisfied, Senator, except I do not agree with
aracterization of the testimony that you said at the begin-
the hearing that I was here to recant my testimony. I em-
Ao you that that testimony was true and accurate to the
my recoIlection at the time I gave it, that I have since done
estigation that should have been done initially if I would
.ad the time to do it, and I am now presenting the correct
·this committee.
,:£or DENTON. Well, your version of it is acce\*Rble and I will
, t to apply the word "recant" which was written for me, but
rstand that you are not properly- there is no other way but
:ta it for me. They are still working on it 2 minutes before
· g began.
, . COCK. I understand, Senator.
r DENTON. I understand that you did not recant, but what
. about what you said was not accurate in that you were
'. g that Mr. Sessions for sure-in fact, you now know that
not the person involved with the Coneeuh County case.
liANCOCK. He was involved with the Coneeuh County case.
. not involved with the Clarke County easel which was the
which the FBI investigation had been canee ed.
r DENTON. Are you saying still that he interfered with the
County case?
. COCK. No, sir. No, sir. I am saying that--
.ror DENTON. That is the only point I want to make. because
· t was used against Mr. Sessions. .
218
Go ahead, Senator Heflin. \ .
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Kowalski, in your testimony that you'
us yesterday--
Mr. Hi\.NCOCK. Mr. Hancock, Senator.
Senator HEFLIN. Pardon me. All right, Mr. Hancock, were"
volvedin the Perry County case in any degree?
Mr. HANCOCK. I am not involved in any degree in the
prosecutions in Perry County, Senator Heflin. We haveha
ty under the Voting Rights Act, under the civil provisio
Voting Rights Act in Perry County, but if you are referri
criminal prosecUtions I have no involvement in that matter.
Senator HEFLIN. I don't believe I have an~ further questi'
Senator DENTON. I would like to recogmze Senator Sp'
let him know that Mr. Hebert and Mr. Hancock, who'Ju
refreshed their recollections and found that previous testi
dicating that Mr. Sessions had interfered in the Conec14k'
case is not correct. If he wants to say that is not recantiKg
all right with me. I will not apply the participle, but they·
their testimony that is why he is here today.
Senator SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, just a question or two'
Hancock. I regret that I have other commitments that pre'
being here to hear your testimony as you have presented'
this point. This may cover some old ground, but what Sll"
was It that you were able to review by way of records}k
rected your recollection? .'.
Mr. HANCOCK. I had requested, Senator Specter, that the
Bureau of Investigation conduct a review of its records
period from 1979 to 1982 of any voting investigations con
the southern district of Alabama. . .' ." ..•...•
My experience over the years has taught me that tlf
does not cancel an investigation without making a recor<
thought that if the investigation had in fact been cance
would be a record. . . ,'
I also requested the staff employed in the Civil RightS'
in the Division's Voting Section, I requested a member of
to review all of the files that we maintain regarding jii'"
in the southern district of Alabama for that same4-y
That review revealed to me, brought forth to me ;'re
showed that in fact there was a situation that arose if'
years ago in which we had requested an investigation of .
voting rights violation in the southern district of Alabii'
U.S. attorney had in fact directed the Bureau. without.,'
not to conduct that investigation. The records that wete
to me were a memo that I wrote memorializing mycqrl'
with the U.S. attorney and noting my disagreement Wi~1j!
been done. ."~
1 also was able to locate the memo from the Bureau'
the investigation had been cancelled at the directionbf
torney. What I learned refreshed my recollection, thattn
event to which my memory had taken me back. How'
volved Clarke County, AL, not Conecuh County, AL,if
prior to the time that Mr. Sessions was U.S. attorney.. I"'
Senator SPECTER. So you had the wrong county?
Mr. HANCOCK. Yes, SIr.
219
nator SPECTER. And the wrong U.S. attorney.
r. HANCOCK., And the wrong time, yes, sir, and the wrong U.S.
"ney. And I have prepared a declaration which I delivered yes-
~y morning to the committee and I set forth those events in
, detail in the declaration and I have also provided copies of
emo that I wrote and a copy of the FBI's memo noting that
.S. attorney had canceled.
ator SPECTER. What was it which initially led you to be con-
that your initial testimony was incorrect?
. HANCOCK. I said before your arrival, Senator Specter, that I
sked to appear before the committee on very short notice, less
an hour's notice, I was told that the discussion was not testi-
but, rather, was to be an informal discussion and that I was
:wer questions to the best of my recollection.
er learned that-of Course I learned when I got here that it
bea deposition' and I later learned that the results of the
'tion were presented to this committee.
fer you to my deposition, Senator Specter. I said many times
deposition that I had a very vague recollection of what actu-
pened in that incident, although I was very convinced that
ident dicj occur and I was fairly confident that it occurred
r. Sessions was U.S. attorney.
ver, because of the fact that it was something that was' at
~hat was being presented to thecomJ:Ilittee, it was not just
,'oujin for the committee staff, and because of the fact that
, llection was very vague on it, I requested the investigation
,view of the files; It was not done by any superiors in the
ights Division or the Department of Justice.
tor SPECTER. So your answer is you just did it on your own
of concern for the vagueness of your own recollection?
. NCOCK. Su"e. '
r ,SPji:CTER.There was no other specific triggering factor?
,~":lCqCK. T4e l'e was, none, II) my opinion, my conclusion
tMr. Sessions is' entitled to have true and acourate facts
. i~ committee and if I was in a position to gather them it
"l!1:\ty to conduct the review and--
tOr SPECTER. That is obviously true, but you are an experi-
awyer, how long have you been at the bar?
,AN'COCK. I have been a member of the bar since 1970.
tor SPECTER. Well, that is 16 years. You are a litigator?
i~~{C6CK. y ~S, sir. -il
tor SPECTER. Do you question witnesses with frequency?
,NCCOK. With some frequency.
'r SPECTER. Do you question witnesses where the oath is ad-
ed?
~N'COCK. I do.
r SPEdER. Well, I am sure you have learned a good lesson.
ANCOCK. I have.
]01' SPECTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
']or PENTON. I hope my colleague from Pennsylvania is
,d I did not mean to insinuate otherwise, that from this
point of view-and I am sure that I can state from
'lse'swho is not opposing Mr. Sessions, there was no call
220
from us to remind him or Mr. Hebert of some misrecol',
had. You did not mean to question it? ',,;
Senator SPECTER. Not at all, Mr. Chairman. I will teil
oath about your integrity and character and will llO~"
whether you call it recanting or whatever. I just think)
usual case, if not an extraordinary case to have a mali' .
cock's experience testify under the circumstances without·
firmer recollection on a matter of this sort, and I think it
priate to ask a question as to whether there is any,t'
factor.
Mr. HANCOCK. Senator Specter, again, you were "not ,
erything I said before, but I had no intention of offe ..
to this committee. I had received a call from the conim'
clined to talk to the committee in part because I did not' ,
I had anything to offer and, as you know, it is normal pr~'
lawyers in the department do not get involved in these
in~~nator SPECTER. Well, Mr. Hancock, I would say that'
cumstance of this sort a man would be well advised to.
You are not under any compulsion to speak without ,h.,
portunity to prepare, to review your documents. It is 0
you are a candidate for office and on election eve they",
sion camera in your face, you have to make a state '
absence of one is very problemsome. But in your,
would be well within ,protocol and your rights to sayn
fleet on it, I need to review some records before I !pve evi
Senator DENTON. If my colleague will Yield fo
moment-- , ' . ,;'
Senator HEFLIN. We have a vote on right now and 11>11
tion or two I want to a s k . , '
Senator DENTON. Yes; we will hold on. Mr. Hebert
called under the same conditions of very little notice
pressure and it was not this side but Senator Biden whq
this unusual opportunity, and both of the gentl~ll)e , "
considerable disadvantage and--, ' ,,' ,"':,,',.,
Senator SPECTER. Senator, everyone is entitled toai(
to prepare, to notice. That is one of the fundamentals '0
ess. . .... _,
Senator DENTON. The point I want to make is Mr.I:J:s
these memories of what had occurred in conversations'
canted, if that word is acceptable, what he said about t,
and Mr. Sessions. He was wrong, and it raises qU~~tli:f
Senator's belief as to the accuracy of the memory, con~lal
Mr. Sessions has said about other things which Mr.
counted to him. "'
We will have to stand in recess for the vote for 7
will be Senator Heflin's turn to question when we coni'
[Short recess.] " '"
Senator DENTON. The committee will come to order.
It is Senator Heflin's turn to question. I just want
point. You have been, Mr. Hancock emphasizing til
which you had to respond to Senator Eiden's request t
fy and the contribution that might have made to t"
your memory. I think it must be asked if you gave"thli
221
:the: ,American Bar Association, with time to meditate
'tit'the urgency necessitated by your testifying to the mi·
•s.?
9.0cK.I received a call on a--
!,,!l'ON.Can you give me a yes or no on that? I will be
Jtearthe qualifications, but did you say the same thing
necuh County and Mr. Sessions to the American Bar Asso-
;which caused a minority of them to say he was not quali·
COCK. Yes, if I can explain.
NTON. Yes; you may explain.
. OCK. I received a call from a representative of the
Bar Association in regards to Mr. Sessions. I was asked
:questions about Mr. Sessions. I was told that the questions
answers would be held in confidence, they were not to be
d,.that they were merely information they were requesting
umber of attorneys who had practiced in the southern dis-
labama.
DENTON. Well, why are you emphasizing in confidence,
ld that have anything to do with the veracity of your
ts?
COcl<. I am not suggesting-~
'·DENTON. I am just trying to save time.
. ANCOCK. I am not suggesting that it has anything to do
,(veracity of my statements. The statements were not the
statements that were intended to be presented before the
J.udiciary Committee. I answered questions on the phone
checking records. My recollection is that I was asked if I
!In incident in Conecuh County involving an FBI investiga-
T said yes, I did, and I confirmed-again, I am not able to
atim what they asked me and what I said to them, but it
ussed and, yes, I did say in effect the same thing that I
reo
·DgNT01'1. Mr. Sessions has been convicted in the press for
able to recollect much less important questions and an-
n the ones that you are able to recollect now, and I hope
in all honesty will note that. These were private conver·
With Mr. Sessions in offhand conversations that he in all
has said he did not remember in every case. This is not an
thing we are asking you about, and I just want to empha-
1.
correct it with the American Bar Association as you
.this committee?
COCK. I wolild be happy to.
ENTON. Senator Heflin.
. l;IEFLiN. First, let me say that the way the question is
hat the Senator had that your testimony caused the
Bar Association--
DENTON. Contributed to it, r would have to say, sir.
HEFLIN [continuing]. Do you mean to include within that
testimony was that important to the American Bar Asso-
222
Senator HEFLIN. Can you evaluate what the American BfI':
ciation decided? " ,
Mr. HANCOCK. Excuse me. I am not in any position toA
what the American Bar Association considered to be importa'
Senator HEFLIN. How long prior to the giving of the dertos"
which you stated your recollections was the American Bar,
·in which you discussed it? .,';e.
Mr. HANCOCK. It was quite a few months ago, Senator: F
recall the date that I got the phone c a l l . "
Senator HEFLIN. Did you do any investigation after you'
telephone call from the American Bar AssoCiation inquirj'
whether or not the statement that you had given them ",liS' ,
or not? ".,
Mr. HANCOCK. I looked in our files for Conecuh Count
whether I could-whether there was any record of the in
also discussed it with members of my staff. We did not "
records, but it was the recollection of the people that I t
that the incident did in fact Occur and, based on those coil
tions, I thought that what I had said was correct.
Senator HEFLIN. That is all.
Senator DENTON. Senator Biden.
Senator BIDEN. I apologize for not being here at the heaH
lier. I thank you, Mr., Hancock, for coming up and correcti
record, and I am ready to hear ,the rest of the witnesses... ,
Senator DENTON. You are aware, Senator Biden, that,Mllt
also corrected his testimony on this? \
Senator BIDEN. On what? .
Senator DENTON. On this statement that Mr. Sessions,int
with Conecuh County. It turns out that that recollection w
recto Mr. Hebert has said so, as has Mr. Hancock. It wast
county and the wrong man. ."',
Senator BIDEN. Well, I think that is obviously useful te~,
Obviously, Mr. Sessions was equally as confused when I ask
about that. He said he did not recall, if you recall, so appare
one recalls. We are all in the same boat, no one has a good
tion abou,t it. I have plenty of questions for other witne .
Ilotknow, quite frankly, I guess instead of just having
here we are suppose to characterize, I guess that is what is
ing, at what stage of this proceeding we are at. I am notp
to characterize at all. All I know is what Mr. Sessions said,
first series of hearings and the admissions and comments.
made about things he recalls having said and not said all'll',.,
bluntly, that is enough for me. But I am prepared to,he~r..ai
witnesses and listen to everything said, and I thank you ill
being here. ,.,:
Senator DENTON. Well, I would earnestly implore my co.!1'
whom I respect in these terms: Were I you, and I hadreaq'
affidavits to the effect of those which you read, I am not,.
would not have handled the previous hearing exactly the WI!
did. ' ':
Senator BIDEN. What does that mean, Jerry? " ',•
Senator DENTON. It means that I am noW going toas1<;,
consider what you missed the other day, what you misseq/
today-- .
223
"tor BIDEN. I missed nothing the other day. Now-~
o'r, DENTON. You stayed for the 9 hours, the whole thing?
61' BiDEN. I was here with you, Jerry. '
litor DENTON. OK. Today we are going to hear much more
1'1 aslds that you stay for today and I wish you had not
;what occurrecl before now.
·qrBIDEN. I will read the record. I will not be missing what
today. I had an opportunity to speak with Mr. Sessions at
,e~gtJiand hear him under oath and Mr. Sessions say thing
'Own testimony having nothing to do with what anybody else
~t 'wbat Mr. Sessions said all by himself.
tor DENTON. Xou said that you were convinced from what he
d What the others said that you concluded that you were
E!d that he did interfere in the Conecuk County case.
tor BIDEN. Jerry, I am not the witness--
tor"DENTON. OK.
'or BIDEN [continuing]. They are the witnesses.
ator DENTON. I am just trying to get at the truth, that is all.
'ator BIDEN. We will get the truth. I am always good at get-
'tbe truth, Jerry. Hang on, the hearing is not over. All I am
, ·to you is that Mr. Sessions has made some interesting state·
to me and to the record under oath and there were com·
made by others. I am prepared to listen to everyone and
ho I do not listen to I will read the record. Let us conduct
'ing. OK?
you, gentlemen. I have no questions unless the Senator
make some solilocuy he wishes to engage in. Ido not.
or DENTON. I cannot compete with you in soliloquies.
. r BIDEN. I think you are probably right, Senator, so why
not move on? [Laughter.]
tor DENTON. You are famous for them.
Kowalski, do you have a statement of any kind?
HANCOCK. May I be excused, Mr. Chairman?
to~DENTON. Yes; you may, Mr. Hancock. Thank you.
'XOWALSKI.Mr, Chairman, I am deputy chief of the Criminal
nof the Civil Rights Division and was asked-- ,
ator DENTON. Would you put the mike directly in front of
tiriouth, please?
','KOWALSKI. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I will be happy to put the
'anywhere the Senators want me to.
ator BIDEN. That is a dangerous commitment to make.
. KOWALSKI. I was asked yesterday to come to the committee
: and to answer questions regarding my contacts with Mr. Ses-
throughout an investigation that I was involved in as a trial
r from the Department of Justice, Criminal Section, Civil
Division, and that was the Michael Donald investigation, a
lllan, a black man who waS found hung in Mobile, AL, in
. I answered questions yesterday for the staff regarding my in-
ll1ent in that investigation as well as Mr. Sessions' involve-
a,!<d my working with l'4r. Sessions. I am prepared to answer
l\~~tions about that matter that the committee may have.
"tor DENTON. Is that the-in what capacity have you worked
r. Sessions and over what period of time?
224
Mr. KOWALSKI. Well, sir, I joil)ed the Department of Jus
1980 as a trial attorney with the criminal section. We iii"
criminal civil rights violations in conjunction with the U.
neys office. .
In 1981, a young black man named Michael Donald "'a .
hanging from a tree in Mobile, AL. Approximately 2yearll':
after a Federal Bureau of Investigation investigation was co
ed, I began to work on the case in an investigative grand jUl"
Mr. Albert Glenn who is seated to my left. We worked in: 'cb
tion with Mr. Sessions' U.S. attorneys office and duringth
proximately 4-month period of the investigation when 1',1.,'
Mobile, AL, working on the case, I had frequent contact Wit
Sessions in regard to that case. .
Senater DENTON. Was it your perception during that tim
Mr. Sessions was cooperative or uncooperative?>:»;
Mr. KOWALSKI. He was very supportive of our efforts
mine which individuals were responsible for the killing of
Donald and entirely sUl'portive of our efforts to prosecute the
dividuals once we identified them. . "1
Senator DENTON. Mr. Kowalski, is it true you were involved
the qecision to go forward with the grand jury investigation'
Donald case?
Mr. KOWALSKI. Yes, sir; I was to this extent: I had been
for several months with one of the assistant U.S. attorneys w
for Mr. Sessions about what we should do with that Case. Hll'
concluded that a grand jury was the most appropriate step
I discussed the matter with my boss, the chief of thes
Daniel Rinzel, who made the decision for the Department-·w
te go forward in the grand jury, and it is my understand!n
Mr. Figures discussed the matter with Mr. Sessions, and OUcr
respectively ultimately made the decision on the grand jury!"
Senator DENTON. Did Mr. Figures ever intimate to you t'
Sessions was in an~ way reluctant to proceed with thei.jl;
tion of the Michael Donald l y n c h i n g ? . , '
Mr. KOWALSKI. No, not expressly, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
and I discusseq the need for both of us to talk with our r
bosses te convince them that a grand jury was necessar·
not say anything to me which I recollect that indicate
going to have any difficulty convincing Mr. Sessions of tli,
a grand jury investigation. I subsequently learned from"
Rinzel, my boss, that when he contacted Mr. Sessions on';'
phone to discuss whether or not a grand jury was appropi'i'
Mr. Sessions voluntarily stated to Mr. Rinzel that he' tli,&,
g,.and jury would be a good idea. I was not privy to that c~.
tion, however I heard this from Mr. Rinzel. ....
Senator DENTON. If the State prosecution of the Michael
case had not resulted in a conviction, from your knowleqgo'
Sessions prepared to go forward with the Federal proseC'
Henry Hayes? ,. , :
Mr. KOWALSKI. Yes; Senator, I believe wll were prepai'
that. We were hopeful, of course, that the State prosecut
be successful. They had the better statute under the faet
tion than we had, but I believe all of us workin(S on tM" ....
eluding Mr. Sessions, recognized the possibility that the'·
225
~,ql{nent might have to try the case as a Federal violation and
, .prepar",d to do so,
)tor P~NTON, Sir,. the gravity of this issue pretty much rests
"kind of answer to the next question. Have you reached any
lision with regard to Mr. Sessions' overall attitude and compe-
tOward civil rights cases in general?
KOWALSKI. I would state that my view is based upon my con-
ith him exclusively in this particular case, and during the
of this case I became convinced that he was dedicated to
'4i,i lllinal civil rights prosecution, that he was eager to see that
. ,..was done in the area of criminal civil rights prosecutions,
Have no reservations at all whatsoever about his dedication
tproposition based on my experience with him.
'ator DENTON. Have you ever heard him make a .racial com-
. which offended you or which you believe suggested that he
'n-sensitive on matters of race?
. KOWALSKI. No, sir; not something that offendeti me. Howev-
tiid hear a comment which others have been offended by, and
tidescribe that now, if the Senator wants me to.
ng the course of the investigation, Mr. Sessions and I were
ing some of the problems in the evidence, and my recollec-
that I mentioned to him that we were having difficulty
gexactly what happened at the house. where a number of
'en were, two of whom were later proven to be involved in
urder, and I mentioned to him that one of the problems was
.some of the Klansmen had been smoking marijuana that
!1d they were having difficulty with their recollection of
LSessions replied to that, something to the effect of, "I didn't
that Klansmen used marijuana now," and I replied that they
this case. To that,he responded, as I recollect, that he used
e~ reSPect for that organization but now he no longer does,
,g that they use drugs. In the context I considered it to be a
a,t ,he was makingat the time.
hworking ona case such as this one, a brutal murder and a
g, those that work on it sometimes do resort to operating
'uIllor and that is what I considered it to be at the time.
,ator DENTON. Sort of like gallows humor?
; KOWALSKI, I would not use that term in this case, Mr. Chair-
a,torDENToN. In your view, is there anything that you know
!\if. Sessions personally or professionally that would disquali-
for appointment as ajudge for the U.S. District Court of the
~,rn District of Alabama?
';KOWALSKI. There is nothing that I am aware of in that
-)"sir.
tor DENTON. I guess I should go in seniority now. Senator
j;or BIDEN. No questions.
tor DENTON. Senator Heflin.
'tor HEFLIN. Mr. Kowalski, you have made a statement here
issue of the Klan-and, as I gather, it is a two-part state-
'If you would recite that again to me, so that I clearly under-
;It. What brought on the issue of saying that he used to think
226
that the Klan was a good organization until he learned 't!1
smoked pot or smoked marijuana, some words to that efl'\!
way you h~ve recited it is a little bit different from ~hat.,
heard preVIously, and I want to make sure the record IS cle'
~o you recall i t ? : P
Mr. KOWALSKI. Senator, one thing I have learned out 6t
perience afte! years of being a prosecutor is it is a,lot h:
remember thmgs than I thought It was. ,,:,:
My recollection is that in a conversation in which I was:
ing the evidence in the case with Mr. Sessions, I rela~¢d
that we are having difficulty with some of theKlan'witri,'
cause they had been smoking marijuana that night,to wHfj ,
sponded that he used to have respect for that organizatiorl
not any longer, knowing that they smoked pot. ,,':,"1
Senator HEFLIN. Now, was Mr. Thomas Figures preseli
time that this was s t a t e d ? : '
Mr. KOWALSKI. I am not sure whether he was or wasii6#.;
Senator HEFLIN. It has been characterized here that to
statement like that in the presence of a black man indicate'
sensitivity to the gravity of the circumstances. I ask you'll.
you know whether Mr. Figures was present? ".
Mr. KOWALSKI. My best recollection is that Mr. Figures
present. However, I have heard from others that othets,
him being present. I am not certain whether he was prese'
Senator HEFLIN. Did you repeat this statement to people.
Mr. KOWALSKI. I recollect talking about this statemelit
Sessions both to Mr. Figures and to Mr. Glenn and pll'lfs
others, but specifically those two. "" "
Senator HEFLIN. How many different conversations, toti\
you have about it? "';'
Mr. KOWALSKI. I really do not remember, Senator. ' "I'
Senator HEFLIN. Would it have been more than three or fo
Mr. KOWALSKI. It could have been. Again, my percepti
statement was that it was made in a humorous veiri an
related it, I related it as a story in a humorous vein as'VI
not certain how many times I may have related it to other.
Senator HEFLIN. That is a l l . " ,l.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Kowalski, was Mr. Figures offends
remark, to your belief?
Mr. KOWALSKI. Well, it is difficult for me to know for
how someone feels about something. I do have a recollec
Mr. Figures gave some body language, that he may hlive:
fended when we discussed that remark. Again, I do not re
him being present when the remark was said, however;,',
member talking about the remark with him, and I am'fi
whether he was offended or not. 0,
. Senator DENTON. Well, I am told-and you will have to",
not-that Mr. Figures gave you a cartoon under which h
some words, and I do not know whether this is true. Mr. F'
here and will be able to testify and you will be able to test
will describe the cartoon and then let the.cameras and
see it, and we have some to pass out. "
The cartoon shows sort of a shack-like lwuse, it loo~!
room, and in the doorway is standing a Klansman, and out
227
'porch, which is very rickety, is st;anding another klansman,
ere is a sign in front of the building which says "HGQ"-
'I presume is Ilheadquarters" -t;hen there is a sign under
,hich looks like it might be some kind of a Klan sign, and
:that the words "First Battalion," and there is a tattered
erateflag flying over the portico and a little dog wagging his
the front of the porch, and the klansman standing on the '.
is saying to the klansman in the doorway, "But I airi't
Rufus, President Reagan appointed me to the Civil Rights
ion," and under that cartoon I am told that Mr. Figure~
'Good choice if he doesn't use drugs, don't you think?" And
cartoon from the Anniston Star, Wednesday, June 1, 1983,
ill hold it up. Here it is.
at I said true?
KOWALSKI. Well, Senator, I received in the mail a copy of
rtoon with the words you just quoted written underneath it.
at Save the envelope. I aln not certain if the envelope had a
address on it, at this time I just do not recollect it. My recol.
is at the time I assumed that this cartoon came frOlll
'sFigures because he and I were working closely together on
e.and I did not know of anyone else who knew of Mr: Ses·
comment outside of Washington, so I cannot say for certain
t. Figures sent this to me, but I assumed he did at tne time.
r DENTON. Well, it seemS that there are those who would
ebhtinue to inake something out of this in the way of a con-
tion of Mr. Sessions. I have heard and read a number of
opposed to Mr. Sessions who agree that he said that in
rid that they do not hold it against him. I can say that from
grim circumstances in one of my most difficult e"periences
number of years that there were all kinds of gallows·type
ade under some very real, deadly, and agonizing circum-
involving both blacks and whites on any subject, and about
Y. way we could keep our sense of humor and so on, but I
nder if we are to continue to regard what I believe Mr. Fig·
. de a' .loke of as something impermissible in irony on the
Mr. SesSio,ns.
k he has be~ said to have been eager to prosecute and I do
how one can ·.assign to him any sincerity with respect to
u and others took to be a joke.
OWALSKI. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. My perception
e surrounding circumstances of how those words were said
tit clearly was intend""'~ humor.
tor DENTON. Go ahead, Senator Heflin.
tor HEFLIN. You mentioned about this envelope you received
<:I-YffiI' mentioned conversations in which you had repeated
ident, but you did not remember the number of occasions.
ntioned a Mr. Glenn. Was Mr. Glenn in Mobile or was he
'ngton?
6WALSKI. Mr. Glenn is here today in Washington. He was
r attorne)' from the criminal section that was working with
e.CllSe. He is, stationed in Washington but we were work-
erjnMobile, Senator.
, t HEFLIN. Thank you.
228
Senator DENTON. All right, I have no further questions ",lRf
sir. I will ask Mr. Glenn in what capacity you have worked.
Mr. Sessions. I thank you, Mr. Kowalski. , , ' .• ',
Mr. GLENN. Mr. Chairman, I also, as did Mr. Kowalski,
with Mr. Sessions in the investigation of the circumstah'c
rounding the death of Michael Donald. This investigation b
May-I was assigned to it in March 1983. The investigatlo
began in May 1983.
We conducted investigative sessions in Mobile in May>,
May and June, July and August 1983, and January arid AjJ
I was in Mobile not for investigation but for related matte'
cember 1983 and April 1985 and again in February of this'
during this period of time, whenever I was in Mobile on t
tigation, of course, Mr. Sessions was consulted and we worke
him closely throughout the investigation. ..
Senator DENTON. In the course of that investigation, did
become aware of that joke or comment about the Klu Klu)<'i .
That would have been about 2 years ago. And if so, what was',
impression of the remark by Mr. Sessions? ..
Mr. GLENN. Mr. Chairman, I am not entirely sure that.
present for that remark. I think I was. I cannot be .sure",~
heard it or that I heard it told to me by Mr. Kowalski. 1.40'
this vision of being in Mr. Sessions' office, of him readingi:.'
or something in the report of some comment with respe9t. '
report havinll' to do with drugs involved with the Klan, l\!l.<l"
thmg was sald about the drugs and Mr. Sessions made Sa..
ment about, "I used to have some respect for those guy~.':.r •.
wholly as a joke l\!ld humor. It never occurred to me, tl,J,ta~
Was any seriousness to it. There was no question in my milid.
time that it was meant h u m o r o u s l y . . . · : ·
Senator DENTON. Do you remember whether Mr. FiisU!"
present or not? . ..·t.
Mr. GLENN. I do not know for sure. I believe he was, bilt
do not know for sure. '.
Senator DENTON. If your memory is hazy, then you Ii
could not answer what his reaction appeared to be to you...,.
Mr. GLENN. No, sir.
Senator DENTON. Did you have any memory of anyone'
fended by the joke at the time you heard it? "
Mr. GLENN. No, s i r . .
. Senator DENTON. Have you had l\!lY discussions with anyc>
about thisjoke apart from committee investigators, the sta.
about the Klan by Mr. Sessions? '
Mr. GLENN. Other than Mr. Kowalski, no, sir. . ....
Senator DENTON. How would you characterize Mr. Sessions'
eration in the Michael Donald lynching Case as to being fully
erative or less thl\!l cooperative? ," ." .•..
Mr. GLENN. In all my contacts with him during the entire'
of the investigation he has provided unqualified support·,
eration to us and independently as an individual who Ii
Wl\!lted to see that crime solved and prosecuted. '. '.'
Senator DENTON. Did you observe any dissatisfaction e
or evidence on Mr. Figures' part on the way that the Doh
tigation progressed or Was resolved? . 'to
229
,r,GLENN., With respect to any particular par~ of it?
'l)ator DENTON. Mr. Figures, did he show you any dissatisfac-
"With the way the Donald investigation progressed or was reo
",d?
r. GLENN. I do not recall explicit comments as ~o any specific
til know that during the COurse o£the investigation, after the
principal co-conspirators had pleaded guilty or had been con·
d, we continued to investigate other individuals to see if they
any Federal culpability, and Mr. Figures was always concerned
Eiwere'very careful to look at those individuals. However, I
heard him specifically cite any individu<ll as obstructing, or
'dissatisfied with the decisions of any individual with respect
investiga,tion.
ator DENTON. In your opinion, did Mr. Sessions manifest an
tical effort to improperly claim credit for the Donald case?
'.GLENN. No, I have no knowledge of that, Mr. Chairman. He
person who is easy to approach, easy to discuss matters with,
ise ideas with, and it is particularly easy to discuss these mat-
with him. He is not a person who is inclined to have an egotis-
approach to matters in my experience with him.
nator DENTON. Thank you, Mr, Glenn.
enator Heflin.
ilnator HEl;'L1N. You basically testify you do not know whether
('heatd Mr. Sessions make this remark or whether or not it was
iltroting situation in which someone was telling you that Mr.
'ldris had made the remark about the Klan and the pot? Is that
'te'~timony?
:OL,ENN. That is correct, I am not absolutely sure that I was
r whether I heard it;
'tor HEFLIN. And you are not sure whether Mr. Figures was
;,or not?
iOtENN. If in fact I was present, the circumstances would
been one in which he was present as well. It would have been
ll~rin!;in Mr. Sessions' office to discuss the day's course of the
tion.
or HEFLIN. How long would it have been after the man had
und hanging from the tree that this was brought to your at-
n.?
: GLENN. Our investigation began approximately--
ator HEFLIN. I mean the remark.
: GLENN. I understand, sir. Our investigation began approxi·
ly 2 years after the incident itself, which was in March 1981. I
'ot know precisely at what point during the May to July
'd-and I imagine it was during that period that the remark
,ened-I do not know exactly what part of that period it was,
1 would have been approximately a little over 2 years after the
, t.
tor HEFLIN. Have you repeated the remark to some other
?
"GLENN. I do not believe so, sir.
ator HEFLIN. Your interpretation of it was that it was a joke?
Gi$NN. Yes, sir.
230
Senator HEFLIN. It was told to you by someone else, i'ather'at
Mr. Sessions. I suppose it would depend upon the method of pi'es'
tationas to whether it was a joke or was not. .' "
Mr. GLENN. It would be my interpretation of what they told'
that is correct.
Senator HEFLIN. Thank you.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Glenn.
Mr. Ben, do you have any statement to make?
Mr. BELL. No; Mr. Chairman, I do not. .
Senator DENTON. Are you a coneague of Barry Kowalski's f .
Civil Rights Division?
Mr, BELL. Yes, sir; I am also one of the Deputy Chiefs';'
Criminal S e c t i o n . · . '
Senator DENTON. How long have you known Jeff Sessions?
Mr. BELL. I have known Mr. Sessions since about 1978, w'
was first assigned to work on a criminal civil rights prosecuti·
Mobile.'"
Senator DENTON. And would you describe the manner and t'"
frame over which you had contact with him?
Mr. BELL. Yes, sir. Another attorney from the Criminal< Se
and I were both assigned to the prosecution of the case inM
It was a case involving the alleged murder of a black inmate"
county jail by the sheriffs department. As you can imagine, i
a very controversial and very sensitive. case, having racial.
tones. It was a case that was not very popular at an in Moqi!'
When we got to Mobile, we got a great deal of support (r.:'
U.S. attorney at the time, Mr. Whitespunner, and then (r'9
successor, Mr. Kimbrough. It was also necessary for us to'C
with assistant U.S. attorneys who, even though they were.ll
signed to the case, would be able to help us with tactical prQ~f
with knowledge of the local rules and mores and so on. In tflal
nection, we both felt free to consult Mr. Sessions frequentl§
that is how I first came to know him. . .•.....
Mr. Sessions was very cooperative with us. Althoughtlj\~
was no direct concern of his, he manifested the desire.to h
tice done and' in general we found him extremely coope*
that situation. Since then I have had a number ofdealiri
him on the telephone concerning other investigations the:
been handled by our office and I have always found him to b
coop~rative, very interested in \letting it:vest~g'!tion~ dorie ~f.p
and mdeed he has that reputation, I beheve It IS fair to say, ..
the attorneys in our office. . ."
Senator DENTON. Would you say that again, please, sir, t
part? There was a lot of conversation and I could not hes'
you said. . .,'
Mr. BELL. Yes, sir. I was saying that I have had occasion
with Mr. Sessions myself on the telephone concerning man,'Y
tigations, criminal civil rights investigations, and he has alw'
pressed a desire to have those investigations done proPer}
done thoroughly. He has always been very cooperative
office. And I also said that it is my behef that his rep'
among the attorneys in our office for being cooperative arid"
sional in his approach to criminal civil rights matters is vety
231
j!niltor DENTON. Is it true-and if you cannot speak for the
'ers, then I ask them to speak for themselves and for the absent
rneys-is it true that you gentlemen are not political appoint-
-you are career Justice Department attorneys?
't. BELL. I think it is fair to say, Mr. Chairman, that all three of
te career attorn~ys.
'nator DENTON. How long have you been serving, for example-
, long did Mr. Keeney serve, does anyone know?
r. BELL. I do not, Mr. Chairman.
, nator DENTON. All right. My staff director, Mr. Lister, informs
that he is aware that he has served since the Eisenhower ad-
jstration.
t. Bell, have you ever observed Mr. Sessions to be racially in-
itive by word or by deed?
r. BELL. No; I have not. As a matter of fact, Mr. Sessions has
ys impressed me as'being a very moral kind of person.
enator DENTON. I note the arrival of first my colleague from II-
ois and my colleague from Massachusetts. I will recognize-I
,ss I should say to Senator Kennedy and Senator Simon that
" 1J;l0rning so far we h/lve heard-this panel consisted of Mr.
cock, who changed the testimony he had written and given to
American Bar Association and to the minority staff person
g him questions regarding the involvement or complicity and
piracy of Mr. Sessions to interrupt the Conecuh County case. It
s out it was Clarke County and another attorney that was in-
ed,another U.S. attorney.
,have been hearing from a panel of C/lreer Justice attorneys
"have, without exception,' having dealt with Mr. Sessions in
tights cases, accredited him with good performance and atti-
'.and so on. Prior to that, we had an attorney who was Involved
erry County, a professor who had to go, Professor Liebman,
aid that Mr. Sessions had In his opinion not handled hlmsj!lf
n the Perry County case and gave what he consid,ered to be
,ce to support that,and that is about where we are.
ink Senator Simon having arrived first, should have the first
ceo
ator, SIMON. I yield to my colleague.
"ator KENNEDY. I thank Senator Simon and the Chair. I want
lain my absence. We had the markup of the higher education
'n the Human Resources Committee, where I am the ranking
ber, and the Home Services for Children Act, both of which we
ed out of the Human Resources Committee about 2 minutes
,so I was necessarily absent.
'ust want to make a very brief comment and then I will look
ard to having an opportunity to read the record. I understand
e. I was attending the full committee markup at Labor and
an Resources this morning, that you, Senator Denton, twice
'publicly and on the record that I have no problems with the
n County prosecution.
e state for the record, as I ,stated at the hearing last week,
find the Perry County prosecution very, very troublesome.
,hree' of the defendants in the Perry County case, well known
~ "highly respected civil rights leaders, were acquitted of all
232
charges. Some of the elderly black voters involved in the investi~
tion avowed never to vote again, and that is tragic. ' ,'"
Yesterday Senator Denton asked me what bothered me Iii
about Mr. Sessions and I responded that, although I am trou
by the Perry County prosecution, I am most concerned about'"
racist remark which Mr, Sessions acknowledged he made. C
compelled to make that statement.
Senator DENTON. I feel that I should respond, Senator Kenne
certainly did not mean to misquote you. I do not have the s,
memory. My memory is that you said that-and I do not thinK
is contradiction, it is a matter of--
Senator KENNEDY. Well, I can tell you what I think, Mr.C '
man. "
Senator DENTON, May I please state what I said? I did not ~
what you said I did. I said that you said that you did not' have
problem with his having brought the thing to trial, and that'w
what I understood you to have said in the cloak room, artd
thought I was doing 'you a justice, a favor,
Senator KENNEDY. I would go with my comments and at '
ments, Mr. Chairman, of what I said at the start of the he
and what I said right now. It is an accurate portrayal of my
tion.
Senator DENTON. Well, if I had known you were going to c6rit
diet me or that I had said it wrong, I certainly would not have,'
memory, as I say, is different from yours.
Senator Simon. , ,
Senator SIMON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was with 'Sell'
Kennedy in the Labor and Human Resources markup, sol
in on the tail-end of your testimony and I apologize. Yo'
heard the testimony concerning Session's references to the N'i ",
and the American Civil Liberties Union as un-American,'lI!
communistic. Do these comments, in your opinion, represent
thoughts of someone who is racially sensitive? '"
Mr. BELL. Senator, I would have to agree that statements,'
are made to be taken seriously of that nature would tend toY
racial insensitivity. I have never myself heard Mr. Sessions""
any such remarks. As a matter of fact, my experiencewitW
that he does not make racial jokes or insensitive jokes. An
were to judge other remarks that he may have made, I would'
to know exactly what they were and what context they we:,
Certainly, they could be racist, but I do not know that I artie
position to judge that. '''' ..
Senator SIMON. Are there any comments from the other two
nesses? >
Mr. KOWALSKI. I would agree with Mr. Bell, Senator, that'

experience with Mr. Sessions, he demonstrated unequiv¢ca1
mitment to the prosecution of criminal civil rights case'
showed sensitivity to those kinds of cases. The Michael"
case, which we discussed before the Senator arrived, was a .
larlybrutal murder that required a great deal of.his attenU
his commitment to bring a prosecution when the localgov~r
had failed to bring a prosecution, and he unequivocally s'{j~ ,
that prosecutive effort and demonstrated to both myself"
233
Ienn, who also worked on the case, his commitment to criminal
"I rights prosecutions,
nator, SIMON, Thank you.
r. GLENN, I would concur with Mr, Kowalski. In my experi·
s with Mr. Sessions, nothing I have ever heard him say leads
to believe that he has any racial insensitivity, I did hear his
ponses to those allegations here last Thursday and I take his reo
"nses and, hearing those, in light of the remarks as I understood
to explain them, there is no racial insensitivity there either, in
pinion.,'.", '. " ,_ .
'nator SIMON. I have no further questions, Mr, Chairman.
natol" DENTON. Senator Simon, besides Senator Heflin, you are
only Democrat here to hear that, I must say that Senator
en.said he would remain for the rest of this, I hope that his
Eand Senator Kennedy's will relay on such information as Sen'
:r Kennedy seems to need. He says he now has problems and had
blems with the bringing of the trial and I hope you are quoting
him the 600 absentee ballots out of 6,800-what was the exact
l"e-700 absentee ballots, about a tenth, as opposed to in that
'ctian in 1984, In 1982 there were a thousand absentee ballots as
pared to 250 out of 250,000 in Jefferson County,
'am perfectly willing to join battle and keep the battle going
'til we find out, ascertain at least to the efficacy of all the mem-
'who are not going to hear any of this, so we are left to rely on
ther' the press chooses to comment On this testimony being
n today, rather than the testimony that Was given at the last
ing or the inferences drawn from it, and I just hope that we do
'. stice out of this,
ank the panel and--
ato HEFLiN, I would like to ask Mr. Kowalski a couple more
ions on this remark about the Klan and the fact that they
-'smoking pot, Now, as I understand it, to get it back into the
I" setting of the remark to you, you were telling him you were
'is some difficulty with witnesses or with Klansmen I suppose
had talked, as to those Klansmen recalling What went on at a
ebecause they had been smoking marijuana.
ow, at the time that you told Mr. Sessions that, had he been
usly informed of this or was this new information to him?
'I'. KOWALSKI. My best recollection is that I Was telling hini that
rmation for the first time. The context in which I raised it, as I
lIect now in my mind, was I also thought it Was humorous that
smen had now begun to use drugs, and I mentioned it as a "
'-of the discussion of the case as a whole in that fashion, and
'ecollection, to answer your question, was that Mr. Sessions
,Fit for the first time from me,
ator HEFLIN. Now, I suppose ~ou had investigators, the FBI
sedlYi who had been interviewmg the various members of the
,including members of the Klan who probably were not in·
..in the actual murder, and trying to reconstruct what went
d the circumstances, and you were expressing to Mr, Sessions
e· first time that you were having difficulty getting all of the
I situation of what occurred in the house relative to conver-
s because some of the Klansmen had been smoking marijua-
dhis response, as has been given, followed that information.
234
Mr. KOWALSKI. Yes, sir; it did. I would amplify one thing
the Senator's information. I believe on other occasions I
Mr. Sessions about difficulties getting evidence from these
lar individuals. In fact, they initially had lied to theF
interviewed, so there was other circumstances beyond th
of marijuana that contributed to the difficulty of gett""
and truthful answers, from the people we were invest!
interviewing.
Senator HEFLIN. Do you consider Mr. Sessions a joket
Mr. KOWALSKI. No, sir, not particularly. On the other,
Heve he does have a sense of humor. I do not think he ut
inordinate amount of time, but he does joke on occasioi1:,
, Senator HEFLIN. That is all. , ',,'
Senator DENTON. Before we thank and dismiss the i'
Glenn, you said something a moment ago which I agr~,e '
is terribly important. You said that you were here fot
hearing, you heard what was said back and forth about
remarks attributed to Jeff Sessions and that you did not'
tion to the entirety of those testimonies find his remarkS
been racial or worthy of being considered that. Is that corr,'
Mr. GLENN. I was responding particularly to Senafu,f'
question concerning remarks regarding organizations to
American or otherwise and, after hearing Mr. Sessions'
tion last Thursday, I believe Mr. Sessions and I unders,' ,
thought he was saying and I do not consider that to ,b
comment. - ,~. i
Senator DENTON. I totally agree and that is the most fr:
part of this hearing, second to my regret that I am ngt 11,'
am doing my best, but the newspaper accounts, television.
showing the allegations being made, as if final, and not
by what Mr. Sessions' testimony and testimony of others
shocked a large number of very well-meaning Americ
they have, assu!J1ed that all he did was critic~e as, un
anti-American, Communist-inspired the ACLU and the
is simply not true, and the reason I am bringing this up,
in the next panel which will be testifying principallyag
Sessions a very distinguished protagonist of civil rights;',
guished American by any standards, the Honorable Art
ming, who was the president and chairman of the Cit~e' "
sion on Civil Rights, in Washington, DC, under the Eise
ministration. .
He is shocked by what he has read because he wasn
hearing and he is going to testify that way and in other "
am not aware of. But I ask that he take note that Mr.Gl
said that, at least for what it is worth that is also mybe,Ii
think it is the belief of many Alabamians from the many te
we have received from black and white persons about tha
as if you will stay for the subsequent panel, and I hoper,
been here a while, sir. ,qJ
What testimonies you receive about Mr. Sessions fret
others who were involved, black and white, in the Perry
case. '''c;
I thank the panel. Senator Simon.
235
r SIMON. If I could just follow up with one question, Mr
"ou will recall that Mr. Hebert was brought up as a witness
tor Biden asked Mr. Hebert, if he were an attorney who
ient that happened to be black, would he want to have
ssions as the presiding judge. Mr. Hebert said he would
'are an attorney, I assume, Mr. Glenn?
. NN. I am.
r SIMON. I ask you the Same question. If you had a client
plack and you had a choice of courts you would you want
,before Judge Sessions?
~ENN. Knowing what I know about Mr. Sessions and
orlled with him, I would not hesitate to go before Judge
r'SIMoN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
.r !?ENTON. I thank you, Senator Simon, because I have
ticizedfor having Mr. Hebert sit there and testify and
',;that he was going to say some of the things he did. I did
'se I thought we should get at the truth. That was Mr. He-
inion, which is not quite the same as Mr. Glenn. We have
iii 'of six attorneys from the Department of Justice. Only
¢.hosen. He has recanted part of his testimony. I think in
ss we should ask the other two who are sitting here, since
'mon was kind enough to ask that question, which I think
air one, whether the other two would care to respond to
lon~
LL. Well, Senator, if I may first, I would be happy to
,Judge Sessions' court under any circumstances I can con-
"DENTON. He asked if you were black, would you feel
ur client were black, would you feel that he wlIs under a
'go? ,
'. As T say, I would be happy to appear in his court.
DENTON. Sir?
WALSKI. I would begin by stating that before working for
1ment of Justice I was an attorney and professor with the
Roolof Law where I represented many black indigept
.Quld have no reservation about appearing with a bl'l-ck
yother client before Judge Sessions, were he sitting on
"Conrt.
ENTON, Any other questions?
nse.]
!?ENTON. I thank the panel.
': Mr. Chairman, may we be excused?
'DENTON. You are excused.
No.2, as I call their names, I request that they come for-
•·'.remain standing to be Sworn: The Honorable Clarence
'Maryland State senator, for the National Black Cauens of
'slators, Washington, DC; the Honorable Arthur Flem-
'rman, Citizens Commission on Civil Rights, Washington,
Robert Turner, attorney, Chestnut, Sanders, Sanders,
Williams, of Marion, AL; Dr. Robert Gilliard, president,
ssociation for the Advancement of Colored People,
;branch.
'ii
236
We have had many surprises about who was coming·
was not. There were a lot of cancellations and a lot of_
There are only two of the fourl-oh, I am sorry, three of
called. Apparently State Senator i\1itGllcll is the one that,
- If you gentlemen, please, would raise your right hari
liard, excuse me, would you raise your right hand, sir?):
swear that the testimony you will give before this heariri~
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the tt.
help you God?
Mr. FLEMMING. I do.
Mr. TURNER. I do.
Mr. GILLIARD. I do.
I had Mitchell, Flemming, Turner, and Gilliard in that _
do not know why, but I will accede to the way it wasprese
me, so Mr. Flemming will be the first, Hon. Arthur Fie
chairman, Citizens Commission on Civil Rights, Washingt.
Welcome.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR FLEMMING, CHAIRMAN, CITIZES
MISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS: ROBERT TURNER, ESQ., CHE
SANDERS, SANDERS, TURNER & WILLIAMS, MARION,"
ROBERT W. GILLIARD, PRESIDENT, MOBILE, AL, BRAN'.
TIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF'Cl!J-
PEOPLE; ACCOMPANIED BY ALTHEA T.L. SIMMONS, Dr
WASHINGTON BUREAU, NAACP
Mr. FLEMMING. Senator Denton and members of the cit-
first of all I appreciate very much having the opportunity
again appearing before this committee.
In order that you will understand where I am coming fr
as my testimony 'is concerned, I will state that I have hli
portunity of serving in the Federal Government-- ._
Senator DENTON. Sir, could you put the mike a lit£le:'
your mouth? Thank you. _ _•;-f
Mr. FLEMMING. I have had the opportunity of serving tn'
eral Government as a member of the U.S. Civil Service Go
over a period of 9 years. In President Eisenhower's first'
served in his Cabinet as Director of Defense Mobilizatio
that capacity also served as a member of the National.
Council. In the second term, I served as Secretary of Heal
cation, and Welfare. ',,:
Since then I have had the opportunity of serving as, p.•
missioner on Aging, and from 1974 to 1982 as Chairman of t
Commission on Civil Rights. .
I think I should address myself first of all to thecomme.
you have made, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your comme
tive to my concern for issues in the field of civil rights.,'
correct in your assumption that I did read about the testimo
was presented to this committee and I was shocked. .
I understood that earlier in the hearing today you expr_
point of view that you expressed just a few minutes ago,an
listened to some of your colleagues react to that COmment., S
237
'll ,that the question of whether or not the comments were
" an issue before the committee.
tot DENTON. In the context in which they were originally
, 'MlIHNG. That becomes an issue and you are now in the
f ,taking testimony on both sides of that issue. You and
er members of the committee have reached tentative con-
on the basis of the evidence that has been presented up to
!It time.
timony will proceed on the assumption that the state-
ere made and were made in the context reported. That is
Way in which I can be bf help. I recognize the process that
mittee is now goi!lg through. I cannot help as far as that
8l" process is concerned.
;result of the experiences that it has been my privilege to
the executive branch of the Federal Government, I have
ed great respect for our system of government. I have great
,for our system of checks and balances. I am seeing it oper-
t now. The President has nominated and this committee of
,ate 'is now giving consideration to a nomination made by
esident of the United States. I have developed tremendous
for, the role of the judiciary under our system of govern·
:I,ebple, it .seems to me, must believe that Federal f'udges will
cases in an unbiased manner, and I am sure we a I agree on
s I had the opportunity of serving in President Eisenhower's
tration, I was very much impressed with the way in which
t ,about the selection of persons to serve on the Federal
41e was assisted, of course, in the first term by Herbert
,,II, the Attorney General, and then later in his second term
liam Rogers who followed Mr. Brownell as Attorney Gener-
"hed particularly the process that Attorney General Brow-
!lowed, the process that had the complete backi!lg of Presi·
isenhower. President Eisenhower operated in such a way
e Cabinet was a collegial body, we did as a body discuss
of this kind and we were aware of what was going on, not
, ,our own departments but what was going on in other de-
ents.
ei that one of the finest contributions made by President Ei·
ower was the type of persons that he nominated for service in
ederal judiciary. I am a hero worshiper, really, for example,
nee person coming from your State, Mr. Chairman, namely
e Frank Johnson who Was selected for a Federal judgeship at
, rticular time.
i that President Eisenhower, aided and assisted by Attorney
Brownell and also Attorney General Rogers, kept before
at all times the absolute importance of nominating to the
persons who would have the confidence of the people of this
n {rom the standpoint of their commitment to dealing with
ases that would come before them in an unbiased manner.
that is why I was shocked by the comments by Mr. Sessions
Were presented to this committee in the first hearing that this
238
committee held on his nomination for a U.S. District CQ
ship. . . ..' ..
I personally believe that if a person who has reached' t ;
sions attributed to Mr. Sessions, should become a Federa
here again, I am assuming tlJ.e accuracy ofthe testimollX'
presented-many of our people would aSSUme that h.e w'oul
biased point of view in any cases involving thes.e or . '
members of these organizations, orissueswith whichcth
zations deal, namely issues relating oftentimes to the fi
ment Or to the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth a.men
I recognize that I have not identified the organizatiQI)
did identify them in your comments, namely the N":
ACLU, the National Council of Churches, the Southern"L
Christian Conference, and PUSH.' " ",
The statements, it seems to me, are so extreme that t)\
tion is bias that I talked about would persist, and than
that would confront the Senate as a result of thesest~t
the nominee would have to be looked upon as irretrievilb
Now, I appreciate the fact that people go through an e
terms of views on some matters. Our society gives them,
operate in accordance with their change in views. I do'
however, that in the area of racial bias we should giv~,
opportunity of having a lifetime appointment on the Feder
arl' called attention to the fact that I was a member ot" '
Civil Service Commission from 1939 to 1948. You reco
was serving during the World War II and the post·Wo
period, including my service in the Eisenhower adminisf
We saw during that period what can happen in ouT',
start to question the loyalty of the people who disagre~
stifles the vital debate that is at the core of the De!lioq,r
Unchecked, it seems to me, it can breed unwarrilntli
hatred and an atmosphere in which innocent indi
deemed guilty solely because of the groups to whicht
Guilt by association was rampant during the' war pe
postwar period and on into the fifties. No one shcrql
Federal judge who has shown a willingness to emb
proach.
, Enforcement of the first amendment, for exarnpl'S\';
crystal·clear understanding that those who advanC~
conservative, or even what some people at some poi
as eccentric positions are not for that reason un·
person, it seems to me, should serve as a judge or I
other Federal position who confuses disagreement wit
al political views with disloyalty to the U.S. Goverru:i1(i"
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much having the'op
presenting my views to you. and to the other mernbef~
mittee. I hope that as you weigh the evidence that';'
these views along with others that will be presented.,
Se!1ator DENTON. We will, sir. I cannot say that I,
one word that you said. I think perhaps you .woul
mere allegation printed without contextual feferenc
mony should justifiably wreck a man's reputl\tioll,'!'
career. When I saw the, prepared material which Irefe
239
'the opening hearing, after I looked into it as to what Jeff
himself had to say about those remarks and then saw the
,hink some journalists simply did not stay for the whole
, reported the thing, it was I knew going to become a trage-
at' the same assumptions would be drawn by others who
.articles. I am hoping that there will be some correction to
ext.
roo things in this hearing which are convincing to me, I
made up my mind. A hearing is a hearing. The only thing
'pst is drawing inferences from incorrect allegations which
tobe incorrect. I just think that is tragically wrong. I do
anybody in here wants that to happen, and I just hope it
happen by a prejudgment based on insufficient informa-
;, you. Do you personally know Mr. Sessions, sir?
, MMING. No; I do not.
r, DENTON. Have you ever spoken with or dealt with him
fessional matter or had any dealings with him whatsoever?
MMING. No.
r, DENTON. Senator Heflin.
'~, HEFLIN. I do not believe I have any questions.
I' DENTON. Thank you, sir. I will excuse you then. I am
,ehalf of everyone here we have deep respect for the devel-
fthe civil rights movement, the contribution which Presi-
nhower gave I believe for our national conscience, an
layed beginning whenever one might identify it having
"Wl1ll too late. I would honor you for your part in the
Ii that matter.
MING:Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have here a state-
: have been requested to ask the committee to accept. It
ent to the committee bY Dr. Benjamin Chavis, who is
vedirector of the Commission for Racial Justice of the
u,rch or Christ. If you have no objection, I would like to
it can follow my testimony.
DENTON. It will be included in the record, without objec-
you very much, and you are excused: Thank you, sir.
leillent referred to follows:]
,.
240
STATEMENT TO
UNITED STATES SENATE JODICIARt COMMITTEe
BY
REVEREND DR. BENJAMIN F. CHAVIS, JR.
EXECUtIVE DIRECTOR
am speak-toq o'n banalf of the Commission for;- aaCia'l

of the 1.7 million member United Church
nomination of JeffeLsonB. Sessions III tor
Judge 1n the Southern District of Alabama.
opposed to the nomination of Mr. Sessions for a
Our opposition to this nomination is based on moral;
judicial and theological grounds. For Mr. Sessions to be
conBider~d for a lifetime position of such high public trusc
blatant affront to all jUBtice~lovinq peoples tnd especLallY
fhe c-itizans of the Alabama Black. Belt who have
his attack. on their basic constitutional .rlght. i.e .• the

vote.
The United Church of Christ Commission for Racial

been actively' workinl1' in the ~labama Black Belt
yaars. Our involveilien~ in Alabama ,predates the
investigation.and intimidation of Black leaders
absentee ballot fraUd in Perry, Greene. Sumter. Lowndes
counties.
We have closely followed the course of the subsequent
prosecutions. We also have direct knowledge ot
and intimidation experienced by many Black vot~rs as a resu~
the unjust prosecutions of Albert Turner, Evelyn

Hoque and others. Albert Turne~, as m~ny oC you may
personal advisor to Dr. Martin Luther Kinq and a key
the Selma to Montgomery March which led to the passage 'of
histo,ric Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Mr. Sessions went far beyond his statutory
as U.S. Attorney by the manner in which he directed the
prosecution of these three defendants. Clearly, the courts
the ofCice of U.S. Attorney should not be used to prosecute.
241
!orpolitical and raci~l reasons. While Mr. and Mrs.

and Spencer Hoque were acquitted of these unfounded
investigation and trial have had a chilling and
on the community.
vicious and derogatory comments regarding
Churches, the Southern Christian
~: Conference. the American civil Liberties Union and
1~~:a matter of PUblic record. This committee has received
1~depositions attesting to this fact. and Mr. Sessions has.
making these statements.

ethically, the response of the senate Judiciary
not only be to reject Mr. Sessions' nomination
conduct a Congressional investigation of the unjust
of civil rights workers in ,Alabama and othe.e places in
around the voting .eights issue.
no mere coincidence that the Reagan Administration
reward the repressive actions of Mr. Sessions. In the
'st,-Black voters in the Alabama Black Belt have tu.ened
numbers, but not for Mr. Reagan and his supporters'.
so,<no coincidence that Mr. Sessions was recommended by
qj-e,n'to'n,ol'tne RepUblican Senator ftom Alabama. Senator
's a c.eucial election in November and a large Black
seriously challenge his reelection.
we affirm the equality of all humanity and we
ousexception to all manifestations of racism. Mr.
haractsrization of the National Council of Churcnes, of
~a member denomination, as beinq "un-American" and
Fruipired ll
is but 'another indication ot: his moral
rsboth a Perspn and a public servant. We. theretors.
}resolute rejection ot the nomiilatton of Jefferson B.
any consideration as a Federal judqe.
Benjamin F. Chavie. Jr.

242
Senator DENTON. Mr. Turner is the attorney for Chestnut,
ers, Sanders, Turner & Williams, of Marion, AL, and, Mr.
do you have a statement that you wouid iike to make?
STATEMENT OF ROBERT TURNER
Mr. TURNER. Yes; I do, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman".S.
Heflin, I am Robert Turner, from Marion, AL, and I practice
Marion. I also defended the defendant, Albert Turner, inth' ,
County trial. I am also Albert Turner's brother.
I am not here to retry that case. It has been tried. I anw.
voice opposition to the nomination of Mr, Sessions as a judg'
that things developed during the trial may be important h"
ing Mr. Sessions' quaiifications for the judgeship, and I woo
to share these with the committee.
In my opinion, a fellow judge should possess a high degte
tegrity arid·i!e·shpuld exhibit at all times impartiaiityht,:
with the issues and 'factsa~they are presented.
During the course of the'tl'ial, things developed that j'"
committee should know about which speaks to the integrl
, basic honesty about Mr., Sessions and his ability to deal fair!.
, For the most part, Mr. Sessions tried to put on a case by
witnesses on the stand, knowing at the time that he placeiN
ness on the stand that he had two and sometimes more,th'
conf1icting statements. He would put the witness on tiles
the Government would, and then try to use the statement tit
most favorable to the defense as impeachment to trY tobro
the witness into agreeing with what he considered \Vas tll~,m
vorable iight. .;
This happened quite often in one case in particular. The"
was on the stand testifying in a manner very favorable t,o*
fense and the Government attorneys gave the judge the iIriJl
that the witness was making all of this up, and theykiieW
time that this witness had given a statement to the FBI sa
actly what she was saying on the stand. To this, the j\'d
the trial and required the FBI to go down and prodlice
ment which said the very same thing that the witness w
~~ " ".~
I think that goes to the integrity of the man and I t
goes to the 'fitness of the man to be a judge. This wit ,"
was Alma Price. Going further, committee members and, M!
man, during the course of the trial one such witness who
testifying as they had hoped, in spite of knowing that this
had made other statements who was testifying, this .U.S,•..
wrote on a large sheet of white paper with red ink, ppsitio
self near the jury and on this sheet of paper she had'writte ,
ness iied." This actually happened in that trial.
Going further, Mr. Sessions has indicated to this commjt
Senator HEFUN. May I interrupt there? '
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Senator HEFLIN. You say "she did this." Was this an allsis
Mr. Sessions in the trial of the case?
243
. ator HEFLIN. Would you identify who it is and as to what, be-
l think for it to be relevant you have to tie some sort of con-
n to Mr. Sessions as opposed to the tactics, and whether or
was involved. I think as a good lawyer you would agree with
['URNER. Yes, sir. This witness' name was-I mean this U.S.
y. her name was Gloria Bedwell and she and attorneyE.T.
. in my opinion were the lead attorneys on the case. I cannot
this committee that Mr. Sessions was in the building when
'curred. I can say to this committee that I made a motion for
ial upon discovering such out of the presence of the jury,
r. Sessions did appear and to my knowledge he made no rep-
d or made no comments to Ms. Bedwell about her conduct.
pnjunction with this testimony, I would like to offer the affi-
"f Ms. Rose M. Sanders, who was a spectator who was seated
to 10 feet in the audience and she was able to read what
itten on this paper. We would like to offer the affidavit of
ders into evidence.
tor DENTON. Is Rose Sanders an attorney in the same law
'th you?
URNER. She is. .
affidavit referred to follows:]
244
STATE or J\L1oB AKA •

• ArrIDAV!
COUNTY OF DALLAS •
BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority~'
pU~l ie, in Ind for, said State

RC6B M. SANDERS, who being by me duly SWorn,
"My name is Rose M. Sanders and- t·

Highway 14 East, Selma, Alabama
practiced law for fourteen (14) yea~s'
Alabama. I am a partner in the

Chestnut, Sanders, Sanders, Turner &Wi~l~:
I attended the trials 'of
Turner, et 81. 1n selma, Alabama as
The consolidated trials commenced on
and conclUded on July 5, 1985.
part of the trial, just before lunch
Lawrence Wofford:, a cithen attending
brought to IrtJ attention Assistant u.
Gloria Bedwell. Ms. Bedwell was standing,
of the jury box at the end farthest fr~m."i
and nearest to the audience.

Witness for the government was
redi rect. I do not recall her name.
back was partiallY to the jury.
legal pad in both hands and was holding t,
in front of the jury as she
the government's witness. Across the'
written the words Rwitness lied R in large
I was si tting behind the bar on the se'cti-gJ1
the seats for the audience.
clearly' see the words Rwitness
The members of the jury were closer
245
'-:~{'B:_,dwell than both me and Mr. Wofford. Ms. Bedwell

laid the pad on the banister in front of the
with the letters clearly visible (See
attachments marked Exhlbi ts "A" and "B"). I then
Passed a note to Mr. Robert Turner, one of the
;- attorney s representing the defendants. The Judge
.~",immediately recessed for lunch and Ht. Turner

>,,~_rOu9ht the problem to the attention of the Court.
Ms. Bedwell did not deny or respond to the charge.

r stood in the Audience and confirmed to the Judge
t,ilet Ms. Bedwell did do the foreg01ng. The Judge
admonished her not to do that kind of thing. Mr.
Jeff Session left the room before Ms. sedwell
commenced redi rect examination. Be came back as
the court recessed and was present when the matter

brought to the Co U"t t I s attention. Be did not
.say any thing during the exchange •
!~Jtt-A4
ROSB II. SANDBRS
,<
246
Senator DENTON. Are you finished with your--
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Senator HEFLIN. Let me inquire on this issue. Where was"
cation of the piece of paper with the words in red ink "
lied" relative to the jury and whether or not the jurors
What was the relationship, as I gather the probative valu
illegal conduct and endeavoring to present a position to
that did not allow the defense to object-well, it is certainl
ethical type of activity or a trial tactic. Was it close to t
Would you give us information on that?
Mr. TURNER. Well, Ms. Bedwell, upon writing this on th
she moved and positioned herself-there is a railing that
is behind, just as you are. Ms. Bedwell brought her 'note
placed it on the railing while she sat on the railing within
the jurors sitting in the first row, and she was just; wha
from the jurors sitting in the second row. I was seated dire
Senator HEFLIN. Is the eyesight of the jury above the ril
what?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir, the jury can see over the railing,'
you are, and the people who were seated in the second ro.
row of benches is elevated so that the second row can see
first row. I would also like to bring--
Senator DENTON. So we can clarify that, you said it w
notepad. I am informed that it was on the top of a forll)
not on a notepad. It was I guess written by, what, someon
FBI?
Mr. TURNER. No.
Senator DENTON. One of the assistant U.S. attorneys. I
that the gist of this seems to be a criticism of Ms. BedwekL
not subject to this hearing and I think it would require a bu
proof that Mr. Sessions, who only had marginal participa
this trial, if there was guilt on her part, I do not know th
possible to impute guilt in h i m . '
Mr. TURNER. Now, I am going to reply to your questi
whether or not it was on the 302 sheet of paper. It wasWr
302 at one time and then was on a separate sheet of pape
other case. I saw it written on 302 myself. I was seated be
U.S. attorneys, but it was also on the sheet of paper I was's
~ ,
Senator DENTON. The only information we have is ther

dence it was on that form. If there is another allegation
notebook, it is new. ,
Mr. TURNER, OK. I would also like to bring to this coni
attention that Mr. Sessions has testified about the Shelto
and the relative strength of their testimony. I would like'
to this committee's attention that Mr. Sessions failed ta,
that Edward Shelton, one of the Sheltons that he mentio
a statement to the FBI agent, Andrew Duane, onw
Edward Shelton stated that Mr. Albert Turner was pres
home when his wife marked his ballot. He stated that this
when he was sitting in the living room and his wife was:
the kitchen filling out her ballot in addition to his ballot.
247
tion that to indicate that even in front of this committee
ions is still engaged in refraining from making a full dis-
Uhe facts.
'would like to speak to Mr. Sessions' impartiality. Mr. Ses-
'indicated to you that he is interested in cleaning up voter
ities and voter fraud across the board. The results show
. The results show that this was an investigation of the
unty Civic League, of which Mr. Albert Turner is the
t..
suits showed that Mr. Sessions said that the ballots that
. ~d were scratched through or that he thought were tam-
"~tho He went forward and tried to get indictments. I think
, ificant that there were ballots that Albert Turner handled
,there were spark throughs. But in the instances in which
ark throughs were in favor of the prowhite group, there
i)1dictments and no charges brought.
tion the ballots of Samuel Hudson and Jonas Belcher as
o examples-ballots handled by Albert, ballots that sho'Yed
-through but the change was in favor of prowhite and no in-
n and. no indictment,
bdng to this committee's attention that there were several
,liil'dled by Andrew Hayden of Uniontown that showed ir-
ties-no indictments, no grand jury, no investigation and
"The ballots of Evel'yn Thomas Owens and Zeke Montgom-
,eXamples. Again, thIS questions Mr, Sessions' impartiality.
e has indicated that he examined ballots which showed ai-
or irregularities, but there were ballots that became a
he indictment on which there were no changes, no alter-
d no' irregularities, The ballots of Willie Lee, Robert
a Smith, and Maggie Fuller are examples, and then very
ad obvious ballots easily seen that were suspect, There
ee, ballots handled by the Andrew Hayden prowhite group
h the witness signed AUlfUst 29, 1984, in Uniontown, The
as stamped in the CirCUIt Clerk's office in Marion, AL, on
0, 1984, but the ballot was witnessed by the pro-Hayden
August 31, 1984, which indicates that these voters sent
ota in and the Circuit Clerk send them back to Uniontown
vpter had parted with the ~llot. And these were the bal-
olia Eatman, Adlai FieldS, and Agnes Bryant,
rce of my information, committeemen, is the office of Jeff
:;1 had a conversation with Mr. Sessions and he told me
e',accused me of being partial in this case, show me where I
1!'to investigate, I just want this committee to know that
.~ns gave me this information that I am giving you. The
meys office collected all 700-plus ballots and as a part of
, t~e~ gaye me copies, I got this information from the bal-
~. SeSSIOns gave me. ,', '
to Mr. Sessions, you have the information, I filed some
rmation and indicated that we were planning to go for-
'a selective prosecution theory, but the information that
,came from Mr, Sessions' office.
'd gentlemen, the issue is whether or not a person Can
jUstice. Should Mr. Sessions become a judge, I think that
lie. Mr. Sessions came into Perry COunty and there were
248
two 'political factions at odds, he took a side and he went
and he left the other alone. That is what happened.
Not only that, but should Mr. Sessions become judge, h~"
the names of aU the Albert Turner and Perry County Civic"
cohorts because he has the ballots. As a black attorneY'''
black client-and I am not sure my answer would not be"di
if I was a white attorney with a black client-but as a bla:lj
ney with a black client and the issue being whether 6rilOt
can anticipate justice in front of Mr. Sessions, the answer is
We appreciate this committee reviewing the actions 'of' '
sions in light of his ability to be impartial and in light of t
rity that he has exhibited through my contacts with him.
Senator DENTON. ,Thank you, sir. , , ' "
The defendant in the case was your brother, was that co,
Mr. TURNER. That is correct. •
Senator DENTON. And the witness who testified about t
was an attorney in your law firm? , " ,,;;',1
Mr. TURNER. That is correct. I am also testifying to that' ,
Senator DENTON. Did you see the note yourself?
Mr. TURNEd. Yes, s i r . ,
Senator DENTON. In the courtroom at the time, in the,
that the witness says it was in? I"~
Mr. TURNER. Excuse me, please. ,!
Senator DENTON. You saw the note in the 10cationthaV
ness said it was in and in the circumstances that the wit'les
was in, the other attorney in your law firm?
Mr. TURNER. I saw her writing the note, ,and I also sa
over and lean on the bench. And I saw her put a she~
down in front of the jury. ,,',,:,
Senator DENTON. Alma Price, was that the witness?
Mr. TuRNER. Yes; that is the one witness that r mention,
Senator DENTON. Without addressing the fact or ladk6
the aUegation about the note, Alma Price's testimony'isih
my information that the assistant U.S. attorney was' tryiil '
track of the various witnesses who were being broughli"f
was using the forms to keep track of those witnesses,and'
the jury because that is whom she was addressing. SM'
asked to move away from th~ witness so sh~ got clos8r'106'
And Alma Price's testimony is here. It is contradictOr'
time she gives it. And as a matter of keeping tra~k ,0
nesses, it is my understanding that when she got to
that was the top of the 5302, and I am under the illlPr'
*
Mr. Sessions conducted an internal inquiry into that,t'ff"
look into the matter. " ',;
Mr. TURNER. Right now, Mr. Chairman, r wonder if y.,\1',
matters confused. I am not foUowing you on the Alma Pr
Alma Price w a s - - " , '
Senator DENTON. We thought that Alma Price was tit
valved with the note on the investigative form.
Mr. TURNER. No; I am not sure that Alma Price was
ness. Alma Price was mentioned in a different setting,
Senator DENTON. OK.
249
the bottom of page 3 of your prepared statement, you assert
Indictments in trials will have a serious impact on the ability
'paign workers to secure absentee ballots in the future."
.you suggesting that in a case with 700 absentee ballots out of
of votes cast, registered voters, and the unanimous opinion of
stice Department that the case should have been brought,
U.s. attorney should refrain from prosecuting voter fraud
)It kind of indication that there should be a prosecution?
TURNER. I have not testified as to whether or not I thought
ould have brought it, prosecution.
1 be glad to answer any questions that you would like me to
about that. But I did not-as far as I am concerned, the
tion was brought, it was tried, and the Government failed
Iy to prove its case.
tor DENTON. But I am not addressing that.
say indictments and trials will have a serious impact on the
pf campaign workers to secure absenteeism ballots in the
,and there were a host of newspaper articles saying that the
. as brought as a conspiracy between "me, Meese and the
nt." And I did not know ahout the trial until I read about
.this ties in with that allegation that to bring such a trial
\;~ a serious impact on elections by affecting the ability of
'workers. So I have to know that.
RNER. "ou would like to know .what I mean about that?
tqrDENTON. Yes; why would there be a serious impact on
.:ty of campaign workers if you bring an indictment and
: p.it is proper that one be brought.
RNER. I have not said that this was prqperly brought. I
.~ that it was brought, it was tried, and it has been done.
or DENTON. The Justice Department has said it was proper-
t.
. .ItNER. Well, I qisagree with the Justice Department.
i\'DENTON. Neither does Senator Kennedy.
.:ItN'ER. We trieq the case.
.,:.:wh!lt I am saying is bringing to trial people who were en-
;;!I) first amendment protected activity, and that is what I
at judgment of proof to mean. People engaged in first
. ent activities were brought to trial. And for people to feel
engaged in first amendment of the Constitution's protect-
ties and be brought to trial and possibly go to jail, possibly
s.for most people.
r DENTON. Well, if it was wrongdoing, I guess there might
llNER. Nobody has said they were wrong. Nobody has
.~y were wrong.
t'lilENTON. But there was evidence that--
llNEll.The trial has been conducted and there was a jury.
r DENTON. The people were acquitted. That does not mean
iilrimproper to bring the case.
.ethe first person whom I have heard say something like
"te group and the pro-Hayden group.
RNER. No, sir.
250
, Senator DENTON. I mean you are the first person I have haJi;
say that. You have been referring to the prowhite group and
pro-Hayden group; I have never heard that division. Fran~
sounds as if that might be some kind of a racist remark. '
But who is Mr. Hayden? ,
Mr. TURNER. Well, Senator, I am surprised, but he is the
of Uniontown, AL.
Senator DENTON. So, in your way of looking at the case,
was a prowhite group and a pro-mayor of Uniontown group?
Mr. TURNER. No, s i r . ,
Senator DENTON. I thought that was the way you character'
inyour testimony. , '/,
,Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I did not characterize my testimo
such. , ',',','
Mayor Ha'yden is a member of the prowhitegroup. He ,is a,
man. That IS a, minimum of a prowhite group which consi~
some blacks and some Whites,. , ,::
'Senator DENTON. Well, I understand what you are getting a,t.:
Mr. J.L. Chestnut, who is your law partner lind also a Wrjte
the Selma Times J oilrnal, has an article here, September 2?, ,
headlined "Uncle Tomism to be Dealt With." And he, i11 th!j,(
article, says Senator Denton, Jeremiah Denton, respondf'
whites such as Cook-I do not even know what he is talkin" '
here-tried desperately to persuade the Justice Departm'
reject the Perry County redistricting plan: , '",
On my word as a Christian, under oath, I will say I have,ti
what in the world the man is talking about. Now he is in xo'
firm. And I think we are looking at something more thlin"
triaHnPerry County on its merits.
It says,' in the last paragraph, one of the major item~ befO
Regional Convention of Black Belt Counties next year
Uncle Tomism and how to deal with, it publicly and, erre
And I think it is presumptious for one group to assume th
other group is prowhiteper se, and that they are Uncle To
that this all be brought mto a trial. It seems to me itshoul.~
its merits. And it was involved, but the question was with'
sentee voters out of 6,000 registered, that was not forsolIl'
funny there that needed-out of 6,000 voters, was there no
thing funny that needed looking i n t o . ' , :
That is my statement. I am not asking you for a commerlll.!o'
ask you to comment on this. ",]
You have made the following charges in ,Your prepared"
ment and I ask you to respond to these questIOns, and remin
that you are under oath. "
You state that elderly absentee voters were fingerprinte
photographed by the FBI in Mobile in connection with the
County investigation.
I would like to know if you can name any person other ,t
defendants in the case who was fingerprinted or photograp
the FBI in Mobile?
Mr. TURNER. To me the defendants in the case were citize
were engaged in--
Senator DENTON. You said elderly absentee, voters were.
printed and photographed by the FBI.
251
",:,The defendants were not elderly absentee voters, and it was the
defendants in the case that were fingerprinted in Mobile.
nDo you know of anyone else that you can name that was?
:,Mt. TURNER. No; Ido pot know of anyone else.
Senator DENTON. OK.
I;\\!fr. TURNER. Personally I do not know of anyone else.
, enatot DENTON. You implied by the fingerprinting they were in-
, idatingwitnesses in Mobile, the FBI was. '
I challenge you to name under oath the voters who you contend
ffeted strokes or heart attacks while in Mobile at the grand jury
ion.
r.' TURNER. I have talked with the son-in-law of Mr. Henry
on, and that is where I got that information from,
,nator DENTON. What did he say?
1M'" TURNER. He said Mr. Jackson became ill and that he iater
'La stroke.
, nator DENTON. When did he become ill?
. TURNER. His son-in-law, Mr. Elijah Jackson, indicated that
came ill in Mobile.
llator DENTON. When did he have the stroke or heart attack?
r. TURNER. It was manifested subsequent to the grand jury
ings.
nator DENTON. How long after that?
r. TURNER. I do not know exactly, but I can tell you when I was
ng to Mr. Jackson.
nator DENTON. Six months maybe?
u said while in Mobile at the grand jury session in your pre-
d statement under oath.
r. TURNER. Now I am saying that Mr. Jackson indicated that
ather-in-Iaw became ill, that he subsequently had a stroke.
enator DENTON. You have charged in your prepared statement
,the FBI was granted a court order to intercept absentee bal-
in Perry County.
'QU know for a fact and the court records confirm the fact that
Iballots were opened by county election officials under a court
r requested by four local candidates, three of whom were black.
'±! what basis did you say that the FBI opened the absentee bal-
?
t. TURNER. The statement reads:
'1984, the FBI was granted a court order to intercept and open all the absentee
in Perry County,
at is a little bit different than what you said.
ator DENTON. Excuse me. Would you say that again?
'"TURNER. The statement reads:
i~;84, the -FBI was granted a court order to intercept and open all the absentee
_ts in Perry County.
nator DENTON. I will take them one at a time. This is reading
:9tly from your statement about the heart attack.
October of 1984, the United States Attorney impaneled a Grand Jury in
ile. Several groups of elderly black witnesses were herded up, ·placed on buses,
,hauled 160 miles. A large number of these people had never left home before. A
)ity of them were better than 70 years of age. When they got to Mobile. they
Y,fingerprinted and photographed and handwriting samples were taken. Then
252
they were questlon-ed concerning how they voted and whom they voted for. OnEr"
had a stroke while he was down there, B.¥d another suffered a heart attac~, ,',.',,'
In your oral testimony today, you refer to one man, nottw
you have him having a heart attack after, a long time after
will get back to the second one as soon as we find it.
All right. Here is-you stated that "The Justice Depart
made no effort"-this is in quotes-"no effort to indict people'
other political factions even when there were clear violations '0
law." ",,;:j
Can you name any other people who you claimed violate '
tion laws and were not prosecuted? "i,
Mr. TURNER. I can name people who presented the sallie'
of alterations there represented by the ballots on which the'
ments were made. I have already told the committee abo
three people in Uniontown who signed their ballots on 61:\.
August 29, The circuit clerk in Marion received the ball
August 30, and they were notarized August 31 back in Unio
I would also like to introduce the fact that there is a Mt
Walker, a white, who was a long time superintendent ofedu
in Perry County, And it is common knowledge that he lives i
caloosa, AL, He was allowed to vote in this election with his'
loosa address. '
I have also mentioned the ballots of Evelyn Owens a
Montgomery which show the same type alterations, and, t
no indictments.
Senator DENTON, Well, I am not satisfied with your
under oath to the statement you made here about the heart
and stroke in Mobile among the elderly people who were!4'
got your te.rm-hauled d.own there, or whatever it was, It,'
Greyhound bus which was for their convenience beca .
would have had difficulty finding the courthouse. That is
were in the bus. And we will have people who were in the!
fy later there were young as well as elderly there;'"'' .
It appears to me that when you say in 1984 the FBI
a court order to intercept and open all the absentee
Perry County, this order was not precleared by the Justi
ment as mandated by the Voting Rights Act. It appears'
go on and say the FBI immediately swooped into Perry Co
began to show up at the homes of elderly absentee voters;,
them their ballots and asking them if that was the way"t
and whom they voted for. They went up to these people w
was no conceivable, wrongdoing at all on their ballot. . ; ' !
Aside from what I think is evident exaggeration in othe'
think you imply that the FBI did get in there and fool ato
opening the absentee ballots. But I will turn the questi<i.
to Senator Heflin. '.',;,
Mr. TuRNER. Can I reply to that?
Senator DENTON. Sure.
Mr. TURNER. I was making specific reference, Mr. C
the five people, Willie Lee, William Williams, Robert
Smith, and Maggie Fuller. , ' , >,J.
These people, their ballots were made a part of thet'
even though there was not a single mark or alteratiollJor
253
'ncy on their ballots. OK. And ordered them-the FBI opened
em.
';$~n.ator D>:NTON. We are going to have another panel after this,
, d I defer to Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. Are we going to adjourn for lunch?
Senator DENTON. Well, we went 7 hours the other day without
'ourning for anything. And I suggest, since they came such a
ng way, that we just go ahead and eat at the table here.
$enator HEFLIN. That is all right.
nator DENTON. Go a h e a d . .
enator HEFLIN. Mr. Turner, 1'd like to address this matter of
"witness lied" incident and its relationship to Mr. Sessions.
have read now the affidavit of Rose' Sanders, and I believe
~. is testimony here from Deval Patrick of the NAACP Legal
nse and Educational Fund.
ically.... as I understand it,what happened was that during the
Ms. liloria Bedwell wrote "this witness lied" on a piece of
r or notepad, or wrote it -twice, or some way or another, but
it in the view of the members of the jury. And that Rose Sand·
rought this to your attention, and you as an attorney objected
'w, Mr. Sessions was not in the courtroom, as I understand it,
e time that this went on. But was present, I suppose, when it
brought to the attention of the court.
w, was it brought to the attention of the court other than an
tion, or was there a motion for mistrial, and the judge went
into his chambers, or what is the scenario of where Mr. Ses-
came into this?
,,·TuRNER. He came in at the time that we were arguing-was
ing. I believe, Mr. Heflin, that I was asking for a mistrial.
nator HEFLIN. Was this in open court, or was there a session
'de the presence of the jury on this issue?
. 'TURNER. Yes, sir.
'tor HEFLIN. Now, is it your testimony, at least from Ms.
ts, that when-she says he came back as the court recessed
as present when the matter was brought to the court's atten·
e did not sar anything during the exchange.
.your positIOn that the circumstances were such that he
have admonished to Ms. Bedwell, or what is the relation-
Mr. Sessions relative to this?
VRNER. Mr. Heflin, the relationship is that this U.S. attor-
ffice throughout the trial was engaging in little matters
these. The witness lied. Putting the witness on the stand,
g that the witness had given other statements, trying to
eir own witness tell a story that they wanted to hear.
~:also brought a count where a witness had told the FBI that
her ballot to another person and that this person had told
Hhat they.mailed the ballot. They fIled this count against
"Hrner. And the witness lied.
"is a series of events which I hoped this committee will get
all picture of the integrity of Mr. Sessions who was running
·:HEFLIN. Well, rou are saying that the witness lied is one ,I
"•.everal unfair trial tactics. .1
.~1
fi
,;'
254
Senator HEFLIN. But other than on this witness lied busi
you are just.saying that he came before the court, and herij'
silent? . ...."..
Mr. TURNER. Yes; he did. .
Senator HEFLIN. Well, was he called upon to say anything?'
Mr. TURNER. He was not called upon. We were before the"
arguing, you know, and he did not make a response.
Senator HEFLIN. All right. That is all.
Senator DENTON. All right. Thank you, sir. .",
Dr. Robert Gilliard is a man whom I respect and knd.W.
member of the school board in Mobile. I do not. know w4etlJi.
still is or not. I know he is here to testify in opposition to~j!,
sians. ~' ,
I have read your written statement, sir, and you may g9
with your prepared statement. . n,:
STATEMENT OF ROBERT W. GILLIARD
Dr. GILLIARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members'
committee.
I am Robert Gilliard, president of the Mobile Branch N
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.-)
With me is Althea T.L. Simmons, who is director of our W
ton Bureau, NAACP.
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. Ii
in opposition to the nomination of Mr. Jefferson Sessions'
U.S. district judge for the southern district of Alabama.
This district includes Mobile and my NAACP branch. hi
to say to the committee that, based on my opinion, and dn'
utation of Mr. Sessions in the black community of Mob
should not be confirmed as district judge for the southertl"
of Alabama.
Holding judges to the standard of fairness and impart'
critical. Mr. Sessions does not have an open mind. He is no
blacks or to organizations he deems "un~American."
Many members of the black community. believe that Mr.
is biased against blacks and is unwilling to use his office to
their r i g h t s . '
It is a well-established criteria that judges must be-fai
actions. Fairness requires a sensitive open ear to listen':tOJ
concerns of parties before the bench. A judge must be'sen.!
the legitimate concerns of every group. Mr. Sessions, in.1 m
ion, would not be fair to members of my race. .
He accuses the NAACP, the National Council of Churc
some other organizations that take stands on foreign po:
as taking positions against the interest of the United Stat
Mr. Chairman, the NAACP believes that a potentialF~
trict Judge cannot rightfully restrict the legitimate concef
NAACP and other organizations to his personal views On
tivities the organizations should speak out on.
The interests of the NAACP are not and should not be,
limited to domestic civil rights issues. Mr. Sessions igno
torical work of the association. His narrow view of the \,
255
.,its history. Yet, as a judge, if he is confirmed, he would face
wpnumental and, possibly for him, the insurmountable task of
'p,o!)ling his personal bias on what activities the NAACP should
,'quid p.ot be engaged in legitimately.
,Qhairmap., you should be aware that blacks have difficulty
It anything humorous in racial slurs, and for derogatory
~nts regarding organizations and/or institutions they rely on
otect their constitutional rights. Too many good old boys'
,~nts has stereotypical remarks which have worked to the
ept of the black community.
.,Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, I do not be-
\h~t Mr. Sessions is open about the NAACP.
,s' also an established criteria that a judge must be impartial
;the substance of the litigation as well as to the parties before
A judlfe must not be biased, prejudiced or hostile to the legal
$' orto the parties so as to affect his official actions.
:tin the, Mobile black community do !lOt believe that Mr. Ses-
would be impartial as to our interests and rights.
!)lit me to take a few minutes to inform the committee of my
liiilexperience with the prosecutor's office headed by Mr. Ses-
,
as elected to the Mobile Board of School Commissioners in
,I was elected over three opponents. to a place on the board as
'!taf the 1976 court order of Federal Judge Virgil Pittman,
balished the at-large scheme of electing school board mem-
must add that the basis of the judge's action was the very
ich Mr. Sessions regarded as one of the most intrusive pieces
lation, the Vatitig Rights Act.
"case, the chairman of the school baard, Mr. Dan Alexan-
,ll\mged my right to be a member of the school board. He
'.to recognize me and the other black commissioner, Mr.
n Cox, for motions and to cast vates in school board meet-
. N9vember 4, 1981, June 23, 1982, and July 22, 1982. He
is refusal on my being a member of the pll'intiff class in the
I J"es~gr~gation case of Birdie Mae Davis. He alleged that I
"~I;)Iiflict of inte~est as a plaintiff member, president of the
r, and as a member of the school board.
.p>emper of the school board, I voted against a motion to file
ctiqrrql1;estioning the status of the plaintiff's class in the 15-
,desegregation lawsuit.
a mass meeting called by several State elected officials, a
~t 8fpersons angered by the propitious rulings of the school
• "re';id~nt denying the two black commissioners their right to
'ed a petition calling upon the Department of Justice and
,.attorney's office to investigate the matter and take what-
1'1 action that was appropriate. I was ane of those elected
aption was taken by Mr. Sessions' office in response .to me
·the black citizens of Mobile. Perhaps now this committee
<!e~stand how I and other members of the black community
t, in our opinion, Mr. Sessions is not likely ta take steps or
1>0.Jn positive actions to enforce or to uphold the rights of
meticans.
",,'~'
256
Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, what can be m~~e
basic than the right to vote? It is highly likely that the NAACP,
my constituents and I will appear before the judge who sits on the
bench for the Southern District of Alabama. If that individl\1\1 is.
Mr. Sessions, we are of the opinion that he would be unable to
judge us fairly and impartially on issues before him. . ,no
Mr. Hebert, who knows him professionally and respects him, hits
stated that if he were representing the NAACP, he would have'Io
raise the question to his client and!or counsel regarding a motion
to have Mr. Sessions recuse himself from hearin¥ the case because
his personal views would most likely interfere with the outcome of
the civil rights litigation.
The information before this committee is sufficient, the NAA.
believes, in substance and in quantity to persuade the committee'
vote a~ainst the confirmation of Jefferson Sessions III, to be.1l .
eral District Judge for the southern district of Alabama; ,
I would like to thank the committee for this opportunitY
present the views of the N A A C P . . . . " :
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Dr. Gilliard. ,'f
The only comment, recognizing the controversy that exists:
acteristically in the Mobile school situation and in many a
the country, and ,already having said that I respect you.
Dr. GILLIARD. Thank you. . ' ... J
Senator DENTON. I would like to mention that although:,
Hebert made the judgment that you attribute to him the,re
four others from the Department of.Justice who disagreed .
Hebert on that.. And Mr. Hebert has retracted, I think if
proper word, one of his testimonies which was rather elabor
volving Mr. Sessions, an accusation against him for interfe '
the Conecuh County case. And he also said, in conciudinlf, ..
mony, that he took Mr. Sessions' word on anything, and i
he would be fair. he believed he would be fair.
So, although he is one who shares your views, at least
there were four other attorneys from the DOJ who disagt-e
I will turn over the questioning to Senator Heflin. " (,
Senator HEFLIN. Dr. Gilliard, let me see if I can get toth~,
?f your comment about Mr. Sessions and see if we can un4, .
It. ' . :. "','"
You are contending that after the judge had enterell.',JJl
requiring the at.large election of the Mobile schoolI)Ol\r\.i'. Yi
elected and another black was elected from districts? . :Jl
Dr. GILLIARD. That is correct. .,"\
Senator HEFLIN. You took office. Mr. Alexander,asclJ.,
the board, refused to allow your vote to count, raising "We
interest, contending that you were a plaintiff as pr~~i:'
NAACP, and brought that suit and, therefore, after 'you"
ed, you continued as president of the NAACP and the;t'p
conflict and you could not vote. . .:'
Now, what was the vote in which Mr. Alexander sai
flict existed? What was it a vote about? ';'h
Dr. GILLIARD. There were three occasions, SenatorHEi
dicated. ,Ii.,_,
The vote on November 21, 1982, had to do with the apif
a citizens committee to consider the aspects, all of thee
257
,~he Birdie Mae Davis case, which was a desegregation case. And
f·make recommendations for settlement to the court.
", The other aspect of it I think that you are concerned with is the
,conflict of interest issue.
",i,.·Mr. Alexander made a public statement that I had a conflict of
,?,nterest. He sent those allegations to the Alabama Ethics Commis-
;·sion which the Alabama Ethics Commission found to be unfounded.
Subsequent to that, he continued to allege that I had a conflict of
interest because I was a plaintiff in the Birdie Mae Davis, and that
the NAACP financed the suit, neither of which was true. I made
that clear to the board chairman at that time and many times
'since then. But he persisted on two other times of denying me my
.! . ht to vote.
1And that is when the public became highly incensed.
S.enatorHEFLIN. All rIght.
'Now, after he denied you the right to vote, you in effect were ap-
ling to Mr. Sessions to come to represent you in seeing that the
r of the court, which had ordered the redistricting and that-
t I am driving at, where did this involve Mr. Sessions and what
.he do?
h GILLIARD. In my opinion?,
enator HEFLIN. Yes, sir.
t. GILLIARD. One of the duties of the U.S. attorney or in the
e district attorney is two things-there are two things.
e is to prosecute criminals and the other is most assuredly to
ct the rights of citizens.
l),il;lk that, upon appeal, Mr. Sessions refused or declined or ig-
dmy request for protection of my first amendment rights and
ijghts under the 1965 voting rights bill. It had nothing to do
"dge Pittman's order.
tor HEFLIN. In other words, it was not related to carrying
e redistricting order?
tLLIARD. No, sir. No, sir.
'tor REFLIN. By which the representative of that district--
'GILLIARD. If I had been a member-at-large and the same accu-
was made, the same allegation, I would have requested as-
ce from the U.S. attorney's office to ensure me my rights on
oard.
or- HEFLIN. All ri~ht. That is all.
t.or DENTON. All rIght.
kyou, Dr. Gilliard.
ILLIARD. Thanklou, sir.
,~r DENTON. An thank you, Mr. Turner.
"e. both excused. Thank you.
""'re question, Dr. Gilliard.
know Judge Ferrill McRae?
AIID. Yes; I know him.
DENTON. What kind of a man do you regard him as
AliI). Senator, I do not know-I know he is a judge. I
; 'And I know he handles a lot of criminal cases which I
eigh heavily upon him because murder is involved quite
y, But I am not a social acquaintance of Judge McRae.
:.' I am in no position to judge him on that basis.
258
Senator DENTON. How abOut as a judge, how do you regatil
Dr. GILLIARD. I do not know. I have not had~I have ndt .
in the position of judging Judge McRae on that basis. '
I have seen some cases for which I lauded him for the, II
he reached. I have had many complaints from the coinmuh'
say he wa.s not fair in his decision. But that is a question
my opinion, from the duties of a U.S. attorney. .
, Thank you; Dr. Gilliard. You are excused. . ,,'
Panel 3, will you come forward as I call your names, ple8;s
The Honorable Ferrill D. McRae, judge, 13th judicia\, 6'
Mobile, AL; Mr. LaVon Phillips, legal assistant and adminiat
assistant, Perry County district attorney, Marion, AL; Mr.
Thompson, attorney, King & Spaulding, Atlanta, GA, a .fornie
attorney in Atlanta, GA; Mr. Eddie Menton, a journalist"
Press Register, Mobile, AL; Mr. William Kimbrough, forine,
attorney, southern district of A l a b a m a . ' j
Would you please raise your right hands, gentlemen? •
Do you swear that the testimony you will give to this h#
today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the't
so help you God?
rChorus of I do's.]
Judge McRae, if you care to, you can make an
ment.
TESTIMONY OF PANEL CONSISTING OF FERRILL D.McRAE;'
SIDING JUDGE, 13TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT, MOBILE, AL; "
PHILLIPS, LEGAL ASSISTANT AND ADMINISTRATIVE 'A
ANT, PERRY COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MARld'.
LARRY D. THOMPSON, ATTORNEY, KING & SPAULQIN(l",:
TA, GA; EDDIE MENTON, CITY EDITOR, MOBILE PRESS;R
TER, MOBILE, AL; AND WILLIAM KIMBROUGH, JR., FORME:
ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA' '
Judge McRAE. Well, I have a prepared statement. I would S
like to give that if that is all r i g h t . ' , , ;
Senator DENTON. Yes, sir. ,"
Judge McRAE. I see we only have one member here but"'"
Senator DENTON. Senator East is on his way in if you"c
defer for a moment. "
Judge McRAE. All right.
Senator DENTON. Senator East, I am glad you came. I ree
the presence of my colleague from North Carolina, Senato
Go ahead. We are now about to hear from a panel consis
the list which I am sure your staff will provide you. And,'th ..
man to testify will be the Honorable Ferrill D. McRae, judg .
Judicial Circuit, presiding judge, 13th Judicial Circuit, Mobt!
Your Honor. ",,'
Judge McRAE. Mr. Chairman and members of the coin,illi
thank you for the opportunity to appear before you 'tad
stated, I am the presiding judge for the 13th Judicial Circuit·
under our State judicial system, is Mobile County. I would al'
for you to know, sir, that I am 51 years old, and I am in"t\!,
259
'l), the bench, I am proud to', say that I am a Democrat and,
r"that I hold my office and serve at the will of the public.
it to say, I have devoted my entire adult life to the legal
n.
erstand your duties and obligations under article II, section
r Constitution, wherein it plainly mandates and limits the
t'sappointing authority, when it states that it shall be by
the consent ofthe Senate.
aiding these hearings, I also understand that rules of evi-
,te not followed and that allegations of rank hearsay can be
,J1,gainst a nominee as being the gospel, or that inferences
lJredicated upon inferences. This is totally foreign to a court
..J'entlemen, it is very difficult to refute or answer the ques-
"hen did you stop beating your mother?" if, in fact, you
did.
o,ne, common goal, whether it be in a court of law or in our
ives, should be to search for the truth. I have read the state-
of many of the people who have appeared before you in
hearings. I have found inconsistencies, half-truths, and a few
~rzeal to discredit Mr, sessions were simply loose with the
!.mention this because the publicity coming out of these pro-
s cO\lld have far greater consequences than is apparently
erceived. here.
ely hope that a message is not being sent out to U.S.attor-
hroughout this country by this committee that illegal voting
should not be prosecuted, that is if you ever intend to be con-
. by the U.S. Senate, for I agree totally with Congressman
Gonyers who said, and I quote:
t.suggest here that genuine evidence of illegal activity in voting should not
9~.d to by those charged with enforcing the law. It should be.
tie common thread running through all or almost all of the
y thus far against Mr. Sessions is the Perry County case.
sions is literally being raked over the coals for prosecuting
Voting irregularities in Perry County. This case, according
, was politically motivated to discourage blacks from voting,
e,t the complaints came from black citizens of this county. I
hally find the rationale for such reasoning to be questionable,
his logic escapes me, for the U.S. attorney's office should be
, 0- all men, 'regardless of race, religion, or station in life.
'knowledge of the facts and merits of the Perry County case is
·<j,.entirely to what I have read. It is very easy for those who
20/20 hindsight to say I would not have followed this or that
'of action. If it was a mistake in judgment, and I do not
,enough to say one way or the other, who among you would
Et to take back some decision you made, whether in haste or
tudying the options at length. I would submit there is no
ortal among us.
city of Mobile and Mobile County have, in recent time, been
~d with corruption of public officials. Jeff Sessions has had
,outage to tackle these problems without the benefit of taking
',.ey to see if it were the popular thing to do. No. He had the
"e. to do his duty. But yet there are a few, some of whom are
heys in Mobile, who would lead you to believe that these also
260
were politically motivated. And, furthermore, these few WO
hesitate to say Jeff made this or that statement withdutte
gard for the truth. •.
Jeff Sessions and his office prosecuted a city commis"i
circuit judge, one district judge, an attorney, and a bar"
for public corruption. All were convicted and are presentl
time in the Federal penitentiary. It is no secret that·,6t'
under investigation at this time by both the' Federal Gov'
and the State of Alabama. ',":0
The overwhelming m'liority of the public in Mobile, inc,
legal profession, a.pplaud Mr. Sessions' efforts to clean·,
for they also wish to see their tax dollars spent for the'p
not in the pockets of the greedy. But yet there are a few'\y
accuse Mr. Sessions of only going after Democrats and hay
li~. ~
Gentlemen, whether you like it or not, there are' not·'
publican office holders in Mobile County, but Jeff has sh'
he will tackle them a.lso. I can assure you that you will h~
all over the country-attorney s for defendants and thei"!
blasting the Government and the U.S. attorney's office prigi'
dictment-as having a vendetta against them. This is simply
technique at this time for those who know they are coming t
However, you should give these allegations the credence th
due, and that is simply none. , ,'"
Two of the most racially sensitive cases ever to be prosedu
Mobile County was that of one Tiger Knowles in Federalc6~
one Henry Hayes in State court. These cases were the prose
of two Klansmen for the murder of Michael Donald, a young
man. In March 1981, Michael Donald was abducted, murdere
hanged by two Klansmen. When the perpetrators were apj!
ed, one Tiger Knowles pled guilty in Federal court. The;
Henry Hayes, was tried and convicted in our State cour~.,
given the electric chair in our court, but this was later red
life without parole in the appellate court. I do not know,fi
about the prosecution in Federal court, but can assure youtH
State's conviction of Henry Hayes would not have been p ~
without Jeff Sessions' assistance. Although in the stateme
have read, he was given little credit for t h i s . · " " d
I also read where some even questioned his competence. '1'
absolutely preposterous and simply leads me to the inesca
conclusion that some wanted to leave nothing out in attemp'
discredit him. ,,;;
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, if I believe~,
allegations attributed to Mr. Sessions, that is, that he is a
insensitive to blacks, intimidated old black people in Perry,p
or what have you, I would personally walk to Washingt6dr
urge you not to confirm his nomination. However, based' orr
know, this is not true.
I have watched this young man since he started practiciil.
Mobile. He is honest, hardworking, fair, and compassionar
of his fellowmen. I know he possesses those qualities neee
make a positive contribution to the Federal bench, and' a
all men, regardless of race, or station in life.
261
. ~n!>. you for your attention and will be happy to answer any
on$ you may have.
!ltor DENTON. Thank you, Judge McRae. .
recall that Jeff Sessions was responsible for the successful
,tion of a city commissioner, a circuit judge, a district
e McRAE. Attorney and a used car salesman.
tor DENTON. How many of those people were black?
e., McRAE. Absolutely none. Excuse me, one, the car sales-
- as black.
tor DENTON. So the city commissioner was successfully pros-
McRAE. They were all successfully prosecuted.
lltor DENTON. And in my memory I cannot remember in
~,a city commissioner or a circuit judge being successfully
uted. It takes some guts to take someone like that on consid-
.,the power structure.
nat generally correct? . .
e McRAE. I would say that is very correct.
nator DENTON. I feel that those attached to that city commis-
er or the circuit judge or the lawyer, or the car salesman who
ered prosecution successfully-successful prosecution in his
ds would probably testify that they did not think it would be in
.dnterests for someone like them to come before him in court.
','we have heard some of that today.
ge McRAE. I would say that would be correct, and I agree
r. Gilliard. After 21 years on the bench, I believe you could
. f1.awful lot of people in Mobile County who did not like the
ons I made in this or that case.
hin!>. you could find a number of people who would tell you
!lb,out anything you want to know about Judge McRae after 21
s: on the bench, whethedt be true or not.
tor DENTON. You say that attacking the prosecutor is the in
que among defense attorneys today and perhaps among
~,. thing that concerns me about this, I believe it has been es-
shed that the Perry County vote fraud case had to be prosecut-
the interest of justice. And then ~ou mentioned the prosecu-
.of a number of rough and sign,ficant corruption cases in
He, and that perhaps his office is working on more, is it your
Cern that these attacks on Mr. Sessions could have the effect of
sing prosecutors in the future to be timid and not to take on
'yiduals with J?ower and influence who are causing a great deal
arm from the,r power position?
<lge McRAE. Well, I do not think there is many U.S. attorneys
would not like to be a U.S. Federal district judge. I think that
ers your question.
message is being sent out that these cases should not be
cuted. Of course, I understand the Justice Department to send
attorney, prdsecute them in the event the U.S. attorney does
\it I think that the wrong has been done regardless of whether
e voter irregularities or whatever. The U.S. attorney's office
did respond to that. And if they are being told by these proceed·
262
ings that, you know,we do not like these cases, and I amsayiJ1g,t
that that is the perception I get in reading the newspapers conC_¢,~I1'"
ing this case. I know absolutely nothing about the case othefJhan
what I have read. . ...'
Senator DENTON. In your reading, did you say that you had'{'
a number of statements presented before this committee? FQi!'
ample, have you read Mr. Hank Sanders' testimony? "'1("
Judge McRAE. Yes, I did.
Senator DENTON. Did you find any inaccuracies, perhapsbl
inaccuracies in that testimony and if so, what were they?"" ;'
Judge McRAE. The only thing I found that was absolutely to,
false was that Mr. Sanders made the statement in his prepare'
marks-I do not know whether he has even given them yo
said that a black could not be elected in a county unless th~'
lation-unless that county had a majority of blacks in that do
That is not true. ":',
We have a circuit judge in Mobile who did win a county.
election. In fact, he had no opposition whatsoever. And was ,e
ed in Mobile County countywide. '
Senator DENTON. You mean a black circuit judge?
Judge McRAE. Yes. .,'
Senator DENTON. I believe it is accurate to state, and I hpJ?"
the members of the press will hear this if they have not \:1';
before, that Alabama is second among all States in the a9
number ofblack elected officials. That is not per caPita, but:'
in gross numbers in the entire United States, and that we !'i~
highest number of black mayors of any State in the Vnitel!
This, is not to gainsay that there are still problemS, but I 8.. '
to get some idea of relativity with respect to my own ho'
You are the presiding judge of the circuit, Judge McR~~,
represent yourself as speaking for all ofthe judges 6f"YQ\1
and, if so, would you offer any evidence of that or proQf
that? :' , "
Judge McRAE. Well, I make it a practice not to spe~ ,
court unless I have the approval of the members of th.!l.¢,Q,li'
yes, the judges of the 13th Judicial Circuit sent eaclf.:hiii
this committee a telegram which is dated March 17. " ','
It says, and I quote:
We have all known Jeff Sessions for many years and are familiar WiHt
tion, which is excellent. We are confident that he would make an eXFell
district Judge and would rule impartially in all matters presentedtbI:ii'ifi.
al judiCIal system is fortunate to have someone of Jeffs stature availa:b1
judgeship. We urge you to support this fine candidate and his nominati
federal bench. ;'; ")'>3
That telegram is signed by me, as the presiding judge/1J,
chael E. Zoghby, Judge Braxton Kittrell, Judge Robert By
Edward McDermott, Judge Robert Kendall, Judge CharI
Judge Cain Kennedy, and Judge John Butler.
So, yes, sir, I do speak for the entire court. '
Senator DENTON. Thank you, sir, and you have stated-it
Cain Kennedy is black, is that correct?
Judge McRAE. That is correct.
Senator DENTON. And he signed that telegram?
Judge McRAE. That is correct.
263
"Senator DENTON. You say in the prepared statement that the
verwhelming majority of the Mobile bar agrees with the position
ou have taken today. On what do you base that statement?
, Judge McRAE. Senator, this morning you read it, I believe, but
e Mobile Bar Association adopted a resolution, and I do not know
is firsthand, but I am told that it was also sent to all of the mem-
ers of this committee.
It says:
~The Executive Committee of the Mobile Bar Association, Mobile, Alabama, hereby
firms its endorsement of U.S. Attorney Jefferson B. Sessions, III, for the position
.8 District Judge for the Southern District of Alabama, and states its firm belief
Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the position of U,S, District Judge; that
as been fair with all persons, regardless of race or national origin, and any sug~
. n that Mr. Sessions is racially prejudiced is both unfounded and unfair.
That was, again, I believe, sent to each member of this commit-
"by the Mobile Bar Association.
enator DENTON. You say you have known Jeff since he started
ctice in Mobile. Have you ever known Jeff Sessions to make any
ark that could truly indicate any racial insensitivity?
udge McRAE. No, sir; none at all.
enator DENTON. Is Jeff Sessions a personal or social friend of
rs with whom you have developed some kind of--
udge McRAE. Jeff is approximately 40 and I am 51, so that rules
the-he is a Republican and I am a Democrat. That rules out a
,Ie lot of close companionship. He is not a close personal friend
ine, but I have simply watched the young man since the day
tarted practicing law in Mobile.
e first went to the U.S. attorney's office as an assistant, I be-
l am correct in saying in 1975. So he has been active in that
ion for 11 years now. He has appeared before me many times
urt.
re was approximately a year-and-a-half, I believe, interval in
es in administration that he was not in the U.S. attorney's
either as an assistant or as the U.S. attorney, and he ap-
before me many times.
ator DENTON. In those experiences-you may have answered
dequately, but I have got to ask for the record in a separate
on-how would you rate Mr. Sessions as to courage, honesty,
rd work? Do you consider those important characteristics of
e, and has he displayed proper judicial temperament?
, e McRAE. In my opinion,he has. Jeff is an extremely hard
I do not keep the statistics or the numbers out of his office,
the cases that I have related to you, they demand a great
time.
'not think anyone in the world could question his honesty
grity. Again, he has never made any statement in my pres-
t would indicate in any way any racial insensitivity on his
for judicial temperament, I think that Jeff, yes, has the
listen fairly and impartially and to make a decision. The
ite for any judge is average, or a little better, sense, the
'ivork, and he has shown that he has those qualities.
r DENTON. Thank you, Judge McRae.
264
I will ask, without objection, that the documents to whichy" "
ferred backing your statement that you spoke for your<
judges and for the Mobile Bar Association, and other d()cum~h
which you referred, if any, be placed in the r e c o r d . " ,1
[Letter follows:]
265
~
~
CIRCUIT COURT
THIRTE:ENTH ,JUOICIAl. CIRCUIT
f'lCI'IAIL.L o. M;AAE• .JUOOE
MOBILE:, ALABAM'"
3eeOa
March. 17, 1986
arable Howell Heflin

ted State Senator
"the State of Alabama
nate Office"BUilding
,sh~ngton, D.C. 20510
Senator Heflin:
We have all known Jeff Sessions for many years and are
iliar with his reputation which is excellent. We are confident
t he would make an excellent Federal District Judge, and would
imparthlly in all matters presented to him. The Federal
,cial ,system is fortunate to have someone of Jeff's stature
,:I.,lable' for this jUdgeship. We urge you to support this fine
naidate in his nomination to the Federal Bench.
Sincerely,
Ferrill D. McRae, Presidinq Judge

Thirteenth Judicial circuit of Alabama
Judge Michael E. Zoghby,C~reuit Judge
JUdge Braxton L. Kittrell, Jr., Circuit Judge
Judge Robert L. Byrd, Jr., 'Circuit Judge
JUdge Edward B. McDermott, Circuit Judge
Judge Robert G. Kendall, Circuit Judge
Judge Charles H. Dodson, Jr., Circuit Judge
JUdge Cain J. Kennedy,' Cireui t Judge'
Judge John F. Butler, Circuit Judge
266
Judge McRAE. Senator, again, I think these were sent to you, but
would you like the copies that I have? ,
Senator DENTON. We have copies. That is just a routine request;
we have to ask for objections to get them permanently in the'
record.
Now, since Senator Heflin has been here, Senator East, I shall
defer to him at this point.
Senator HEFLIN. Judge McRae, you mentioned Judge Cain Ken;
nedy and the fact that he had been elected without opposition ill
Mobile County. Mobile County, I believe, is about 40-percent blac '
Judge McRAE. Approximately 30 percent, but Dr. Gilliard c
answer that better than I can. '
Senator HEFLiN. To point out the fact that blacks have bea
elected--
Judge McRAE. He corrected me and said 4 2 . , " ' "
Senator HEFLIN. A member of the Supreme Court of Alabam
black.
Judge McRAE. That is correct. In fact, I helped-well, let me
I did what I could do to help elect Oscar Adams to the Supr
Court of A l a b a m a . ,
Senator HEFLIN. He was appointed and then he later ran
was elected in a contested race. ,
Judge McRAE. That is correct, with white opposition. "
Senator HEFUN. Some might describe the race as having r'
overtones. He might have become involved in it, but neY,ert'
he was elected. I will not ask you to comment on whetheTh:
were racial overtones, but there was that indication of
charges made about that.
Judge McRAE. Well, Senator, if I can respond to that, as I r
the opponent ran his picture and Oscar Adams' picture and
nothing else, indicating he is black, therefore he IS not com
or capable.
But the electorate took care of that and Justice Oscar A
won handily in the State of Alabama.
Senator HEFUN. And he does a great job according to all
have heard.
Judge McRAE. He does an excellent job.
Senator HEFLIN. Now, let me ask you about the Mobile,
Bar Association. You said that was by the executive commit
you know whether there are any blacks on the executive 6
tee?
Judge McRAE. Senator, I really do not know. In fact, I cd
tell you how many members are on the executive commit
know that there are a number of black members of the Mo
Association because I spoke to them two weeks ago and
that firsthand.
Whether any blacks are on the executive committee, it ,,{"
be fair for me to say because I simply do not know.
Senator HEFUN. That is all.
Senator DENTON. Senator East.
Senator EAST. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, Judge MeR"
choose, you may stay. Otherwise, you are excused, but
come to stay, and it might be a good idea if you did.
267
Mr. Lavon Phillips--
Senator HEFLIN. Let me' ask one other question.
" Do you have any idea how many black lawyers are in Mobile
itself?
Judge McRAE. Senator, it would simply be a guess, but it would
'be in the neighborhood of approximately 30. Mr. Kimbrough maybe
an answer that question more correctly, but if I had to guess, I
ould say it would be 30 or more.
Senator HEFLIN. Do you have any idea of the total number of
awyers in Mobile?
Judge McRAE. Yes, sir.
Senator HEFLIN. What is that?
Judge McRAE. In excess of 800.
Judge McRAE. And I might say that is too many.
[Prepared statement follows:]
268
TESTIMONY OF
JUDGE FERR~LL D. McRAE
Presiding Judge
Thirteenth Judicial Circuit
Mobile, Alabama
Mr. Chairman and members of the committeel

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you
I am the Presiding JUdge for the Thirteenth; Judicial
which under our State Judicial System is Mobile County. I

alSO like for you to know that I am 51 years old and
am in my twenty-first year on the Bench. I am proud to

that I am a Democrat, and further that hold my office
serve at the will of the public. Suffice it to say,
devoted my entire adult life to the legal profession.

I understand your duties and obligations under
II, Sec. of our Constit!Jtion wherein it plainly mandates
limits the President's appointing authority, when it
it shall be "by and with the consent of the

In holding these hearings, I also understand that rules
evidence are not followed and that allegations of rank

can be lodged against a nominee as being the "Gospel,"
inferences can be predicated upon inferences. This is
foreign to a court of law. Gentlemen, it
to refute or answer the question -- "When

your mother?", i f in fact you lever did.
The one common goal whether it be in a court of
in our daily lives should be to search for the truth.
read the statements of many of the people who have
before you in these hearings. I found
half-truths, and a few in their. zeal to discredit Mr.
were simply "loose" with the truth. I mention this
the publir:ity coming out of these proceedings could have
greater consequences than is apparently being
I surely hope that a messaqe is not being sent
Attorneys throughout this country by this committee
voting cases should not be proseouted, that

to be oonfirmed by the Senate, for I agree totally:.)
Congressman John Conyers who saidl

269
"I'do not suggest here that genuine evidence of

illegal activity in voting should not be responded
toby those charged with enforcing the law. It
should be."
The one common thread running through all or almost all
of the testimony thus far against Mr. Sessions is the Perry
County case. Jeff Sessions is literally being raked over the
coals for prosecuting alleged voting irregularities in Perry

County. This case according to some was p~litically motivated
to discourage blaeks from voting, but yet the complaints came
from black citizens of this county. I personally find the
rationale of such reasoning to be questionable, and this logic
escapes me, for the U.S. Attorney's office should be open to
all men regardless of race, religion, or station in life. My

knowledge of the facts or the merits of the Perry County case
is limited to what I have read. It is very easy for thOse who

20/20 hindsight to say, would not have followed this
course of action. If it was a mistake in judgment,
I do not know enougl} to say one way or the other, who among
would not like to take back some decision you made Whether
or after studying the options at length. 1 would submit
no such mortal among us.

The City of Mobile and Mobile County have, in r"ecent times,
wracked- with corruption of public officials. Jeff Sessions
to tackle these problems without the benefit
survey to see if it were the "popular" thing to
No, he had the courage to do his' duty, but yet there are
some of whom are attorneys in Mobile who would lead
believe these also were politically motivated. And
few wo~.ld not hesitate to say ·Jeff made this
statement with utter disregard for the truth. Jeff
and his office proseCuted a City Commissioner, one
one District Judge, an attorney, and a car salesman
public corruption. All were convicted and are presently
:~ng ·:;time in the Federal penitentiary. It is no secret that
are under investigation at this time, by both the Federal
e~t and the State of Alabama.

270
The overwhelming majority 'of the pUblic in Mobile, including

the legal profession, applaud Mr. Sessions' efforts to clean
up a mess for they also wish to see their tax dollar spent for
the public, and not in the pockets of the greedy. But yet there
are a few who would accuse Mr. Sessions of only going
Democrats' and having a "hit list." Gentlemen, there
not many. RepUblican officeholders in Mobile 'County,
has shown he will tackle them also. I can assure you
will hear this allover the country -- attorneys for
and their clients blasting the Government and the U. S.
Attorney's office prior to indictment -- as having a vendetta
against them. This is the "in" technique at this time for those;
who know they are coming to trial. However, yOI' should give
these allegations the credence they are due, and that is none.
TwO of the most racially sensitive cases ever to be

prosecuted in Mobile County was that of one Tiger Knowles in
Federal Court and one Henry Hayes in State Court. These'cases-
were the prosecution of two Klansmen for the murder of Michael
Donald, a young black man. In March of 1981, Michael
abducted, murdered, and hanged by two Klansmen. When the
perpetrators were apprehended, one Tiger Knowles ple'ad guHty
Federal Gourt, and the other Henry Hayes was tried and
in'.our State Court. He was given the electric chair in our
Court, but this was later reduced to life without parole, in
Appellate Court. do not know firsthand about the prosec~ti9n;
-" .,
in Federal Court, but can assure you the State',s convict-ion ..of
Henry Hayes would not have been possible without Jeff Sessions-.,\,
assistance. ~lthough in the statements I have read he was given
little credit for this. I also read where some avan
his. competence. This is absolutely preposterous and
me to the inescapable conclusion some wanted to leave
in attempting to discredit him.
Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, if

271
allegations attributed to Mr. Sessions, that is, that

a racist, ,insensitive to blaoks, intimidated old black
in Perry County or what have you, would walk to
D.C. to urge you not to confirm his nomination.
not to be trUe. I have watched this young
started practicing law in Mobile. He is honest,
fair, and compassionate for all of his fellow
I know he possesses those qualities necessary to make
Federal Bench. and for all men,
race, religion, or station in life.
I thank you for your attention and will be h,appy to answer
questions you may have.
STATEMENT ADOPTED BY
MOBILE BAR ASSOCIATION
EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
ON MARCH 17. 1986
The Executive Committee of the ·Mobile Bar Association,

~labama, hereby re-affirms its endorsement of U. S.
Jefferson B. Sessions, III, for the position of u. S.
Judge for the Southern District of Alabama, and states
belief that Mr. Sessions is eminently qualified for the
of U. S. District JUdge, that he has been fair with all
~s regardless of race or national origin, and that any
"r, ..
Sessions is racially prejudiced is both unfounded
MOBILE BAR ASSOCIATION

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
153 Government Street
272
Senator DENTON. If I may go to Mr. LaVon Phillips, legal a
ant and administrative assistant, Perry County district att!lr
Marion, AL, Mr. Phillips, thank you for coming on short notice;
You are free to make any statement you would care to af i
time and then we will ask you questions.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Senator Denton, Senator East, Senator Hen'
name is LaVon Phillips. I have been living in Marion, AL, 'a'
mately now for 5 years. I first came to the State in 1977.
While graduating from undergraduate school and l,at
school, I was employed by the district attorney in May 1981'.'
various positions in the district attorney's office., I started '6
the bottom, from a child support investigator to the position,.!,
now.
I worked the 1982, or investigated the 1982 alleged voter
situation in Perry County and, subsequent to that, the 1984 v
fraud investigation in Perry County, the primary.
I am here to clear up certain discrepancies on the record bas'
ly pertaining to the bus ride from Marion, AL, to Mobile, A
think it was on October 23, 1984-and also the subsequent ae
ties that took place in Mobile when the bus arrived in Mobile
the makeup of the Federal grand jury and the county grand j
in 1982, and other entities that were involved in the vote fraud
vestigation.
Thank you.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Phillips. As you know, thisi
confirmation hearing looking into Mr. Jefferson B. Sessions' qu
fications and suitability for appointment as a judge of the U.S.
trict court for the southern district of Alabama.
Do you know Mr. Sessions?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes; I do.
Senator DENTON. For how long?
Mr. PHILLIPS. I have been knowing Mr. Sessions for approxim
ly 4 years.
Senator DENTON. How did you come to be acquainted with hi
Mr. PHILLIPS. I had met Mr. Sessions-myself and Roy John
visited Mr. Sessions in Mobile; I think it waS in the spring 6f 1.
or 1983. Our main purpose in meeting Mr. Sessions was to
about the voting irregularities in Perry County at that time. '
Senator DENTON. Mr. Johnson is the district attorney in Pe
County?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, Senator. , .
Senator DENTON. Would you describe the conditions in Po'
County with respect to the procurement of absentee ballots, t
problems that have existed in the past in 1982 and 1984, and gen
ally your involvement in the Perry County case? .
Mr. PHILLIPS. Well, starting in 1982, we received severalc
plaints from incumbent black candidates and black voters that
sentee ballot applications were being mailed to citizens' ho
without their request; people were going to the polls trying to v
They were told that they had already voted absentee, which £h
did not.
There were several other incidents that led up to our invest'
tion. We empaneled a grand jury. The racial makeup of that gra
273
was 11 blacks and 7 whites. Take in mind this is a 1982 grand
missed the indictment by two votes, which means that either
f the blacks did not vote for the indictment-this is my opin-
r two of the whites did not or one of the blacks and one of
hites did· not vote for an indictment. You need 13 for an in-
~~~~ .
a.tor DENTON. You calculate, then, that 11 blacks of 13 voted
dictment?
.:;PHILLIPS. Right, with a black grand jury foreman.
e grand jury report that was initiated subsequent to the vote
ly urged that the district attorney's office and other lawen-
ent agencies investigate the situation in Perry County be-
.~ it was becoming very abusive and the black incumbent candi-
's at the time were rather terrified that the~ had to fight or
a put up with certain evils in the commullitl or in political
sphere that they really did not want to deal With.
~e in mind that the political situation in Perry County is not
a white and black power strtiggle. You have a black-on-black
r struggle in Perry County. The voters in Perry County-let
ay this: It is my opinion, and there is a lot of other opinions in
. Qounty, at this particular time that black voters are more
isticated now. They are voting more of their convictions, their
.ests, rather than relying on the, per se, black civil rights lead-
'p.
en this happens, your black power base, or your black mili-
power base, whoever that may be, becomes neutralized. And
use of this, this is why we have the present situation in Perry
ty today and all over this country.
st-my opinion, again-most black politicans and most white
icians think that all black people think alike. That is not true,
: it comes to their political Convictions. I have my interests,
has'his, and so on.
ill is what is happening in Perry County. We have a black-on-
o 'power struggle. Now, do not mistake me; there are still some
.in the white community that still exist today that we are
gto eradicate.
t the situation in Perry County is that white and black togeth·
ant to get together and eradicate these problems, and there is
etion out there that wants to make the community mad, the
community mad, where, hey, they do not want them to asso-
or be aligned with that white political faction.
alked to Albert Turner the other day-some time ago, really.
is nice to have control of the courthouse; as you may see it, but
litical power with no economic power is really no power at all-
at is the use of running the whole courthouse if you are not
ing anything else around it? We have to work together, and
e are some people in Perry County, black and white, who are
g to get a coalition together.
ey have criticized the coalition. Sometimes, I criticize the coa-
··n·because it has to be a real coalition. But we are trying to find
. 'e answers where we can put things in the past and move for-
rd for economic stability and equal voting rights for everybody.
274
Senator DENTON, How about the absentee situation,
peared to you, in Perry County in 1982-84, say? Do you h
recoJlections of that? '
Mr, PHILLIPS, Well, the initial process which started odil'<t
"gation, I must clear up; the Justice Del'artment lawyer who'
panel 1, who was sitting in Mr, McRae s-Mr, Keelley-~"
Senator DENTON, That was Mr, Keeney, right? ','
Mr, PHILLIPS, He stipulated that there was not B' co'
from a circuit judge in 1982, There was a court order'fnJ
judge, retired, Ecker-Russell. There was an election contes
black incumbent candidates to seize the absentee ballots>"
Well, the court order stipulated for them to numMi"
they was coming into the registrar's office when they wet
ing them, Mr, Turner stated that there were FBI agents:'
the baJlots, That may be true, but they were not the first,':
When the baJlots initiaJly was being counted, the board,
trars, or the election officials, at that particular'tiIile"'"
there are 12 on that body; 6 are black, 6 are white, and't
confronted with each other during the same time the~e'y
being counted,
.
, ",,::
. ,..~[
So, basicaJly, these people were the ones who opened tJ;!. ,
first, Once the ballots were numbered and collected, w,e"",
centrated on looking at the affidavit on the back of the ':4
envelope,",
you have your voter's seal, signature, and that oC!' 'f
,which is required by law, We started writing down natAe
to gather potential suspects, And take in mind at this.,!,>\!
time that our state of mind was not-and I repeat wa(p.p
after Albert Turner or any member of the Perry COl),il,
League", , ,.',,:i
We were Just dOlllg our duty under law as far as carrYlng;o
duty in the district attorney's office, We had legitimate,c@\
and if you are in a district attorney's office, you do not cil;;;'
your position, You have to do what you have to dg witfii!i':
fines and the boundaries of the law. "" ,"',
So once we collected these names, we came uP, with"
members who are associated with the Perry Coupty Civic),'
Not only was it Albert Turner, Evelyn Turner, Spencer,.:;
there were numerOUS other personalities involved. ".,;,
We went out to question some of the voters who cast an,ll,
ballot. Several voters indicated that they did not vote their,
tions; that the baJlots were picked up, They have their.!:J
confidence" to several members of the Perry County Civi"
They were, you know, overly disgusted, upset, that, til '
was changed, This is what gave us the reason, more or I
down and talk to Jeff Sessions. Wilen we went to Jeff
after the grand jury failed to indict, Jeff Sessions refused .
ally refused to prosecute the case. I was mad at Jeff'
myself, , "
Jeff emphasized, hey, the grand jury, who is by and ,)'
conscience of the community, stated their claim; they did,,_
to indict, So Jeff thought that that would be un-American;
will, to go ahead and prosecute the Perry County'situation"',,,
275
~C1ined. We were upset about it. So 1984 came around. Reese
ea, Warren Kynard-Reese was the incumbent candidate
ty commission, place one. Warren Kynard was the incum·
didate for the tax assessor's position.
'ey came to us that Thursday before the election, and
d 'Reese told us about the irregularities that was hap-
th the abSentee process in Perry County. And Roy in·
'ese and Mr. Kynard to contact Jeff Sessions.
, asked us would we file a lawsuit. Well, see, we cannot do
'cally, since they are candidates, they would have to file a
6 they hired Jim Barnes, an attorney in Marion, AL; filed
v.. '
"c:EJlvey granted the TRO, temporary restraining order.
'ts"were numbered in accordance with the envelopes, OK.
decided-I am trying to get back to the prerequisites
'tart talking about Jeff Sessions, if I can remember.
ary Clem was contacted-Special Agent Gary Clem, who
iill agent in the Selma office-and he came down and
thus, and Jeff decided to have the case investigated.
'the witnesses were gathered to go to Mobile, the city of
':Hrilrtered a Greyhound bus to carryall the witnesses to
'J was on that bus. I told the district attorney, Royal John·
'C~rry my clothes to Mobile and I just rode the bus with the
t DENTON. Excuse me. Would you repeat that last sen-

''twps. I told Roy Johnson-I was about to ride to Mobile
, but I 'told him that I would ride the bus with the wit-
"d he was to carry my clothes to Mobile.
:ng went smoothly as far as the witnesses getting on the
fig settled. There was not any turmoil or turbulence as far
'tirig the witnesses together. The ones that wanted to go-
'we subpoenaed and wanted to go, they went.
were some people that were subpoenaed that did not show
not at one time did we try to seek a contempt order to
pse people come to Mobile.
r DENTON. Why would you not have? Is it not proper that
and to a subpoena?
,ILLIPS. It is proper, but we just did not-we did not intimi·
Ie; I will just put it that way.
Or DENTON. Were you maybe leaning over a little back·
l/wonder if Mr. Sessions, the first time he did not accept
aI, did that because he did not want to be accused of what
',: g unjustly accused of now.
HILLIPS. I am sorrY,sir. Repeat that, please.
r DENTON. I say, I wonder if there was any leaning over
s a little bit to make sure you were not being accused of
have been accused of.
ILLlPS., Absolutely, yes.
r DENTON. Absolutely. Thank you. Go ahead.
ltILLIPS. I am havinlf-well, I am not having problems; I
blems with the testimony of the Reverend O.C. Dobynes.
"also on that bus.
276
Senator DENTON. He has not testified yet, but he will testif'
statement has been made available. You have looked'at it; co
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, sir.
Senator DENTON. You may go ahead and comment. "
Mr. PHILLIPS. He alleged in his statement that there w~
merous amounts of police officials; that guns were drawn
people was forced upon the bus. And I used to have a great"
respect for Mr. Dobynes not only as a man, but as a memoet,
clergy. , ' c ,;
And after reading those allegations, in which I was ii1k
have lost an.r and all respect. None of those people was ,il1l1.
any undue mfluence at all-none. When we were on our
Mobile, Reverend Dobynes took a seat in the back of the bu~;,l
When we were on our way to Mobile, Reverend Dobyn,e(,
seat on the back of the bus. We had traveled maybe 50 miles,' ,
noticed that Reverend Dobynes was all of a sudden 6ittini'i~
middle of that bus.
What he was doing was he was talking, discussing the cl;lse'
each one of the witnesses. I politely turned to Mr. Dobynes"
told him explicitly not to talk to any of the witnesses coric¢r
their case; that not only that it is not my business; that e!ld].
ness on that bus' circumstance was different. :,
Mr Dobynes displayed-his attitude displayed nothing but h
ria. He verbally sought at me for no reason at all, and when we
to Mobile we arrived at the Econo Lounge. All the witnesses go
the bus. ' ".:,
Gary Clem, the special agent, was already there. He went to'
Federal building, to the marshal's office, to get expense monef;fpt
the wit",esses. They were given checks to pay for their rbbm,.,,,,tb
buy their f o o d . / 1 f
As far as Mr. Dobynes is cbncerned, he did not even stay iri Ihe"
hotel that night; he left. So how can he have any actual knowl{dl!1.
of what went on concerning the witnesses on that bus? He was·rt1!'t:
there; he stayed somewhere else. He left the hotel the momenttlt~'
bus arrived. . <,"
The next day when the grand jury was in session, the Fede""k:
grand jury, and E.T. Rollison was the questioner on the grandJ'\jty,",
Mr. Dobynes again, in the witness room, was harassing several/.of '
the w i t n e s s e s . . " )
We had received several complaints from several witnesses that
they did not want to be associated with Mr. Dobynesanym<\j!,~.
They requested to be put in another room. '
This is what happened concerning the bus ride. As far as t11.e
health and welfare of each witness on that bus, no one, to my Per,
sonal knowledge, complained of any illness or any undue influenb~,
as I stated above, was inflicted upon them. "
Any questions, please? '
Senator DENTON. Did any man have a stroke and another man
have a heart attack down there as a result of being hauled down
there 160 miles, after being herded up, and so on? Those are the
words of a previous witness, Mr. Turner.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Please repeat the question, please.
Senator DENTON. Surely. Did you have knowledge of the kindcof
treatment that would result in a man having a heart attack or,a
277
""another man, supposedly-according to Mr. Turner, as a
fbeing herded up, placed on buses and hauled 160 miles?
-Ii they got to Mobile, they were fingerprinted and photo-
ed and handwriting samples taken, questioned concerning
hey voted and whom they voted for. You are reporting that,
'been on the bus, there was no jostling of the people.
ed, you did not even seek contempt citations against those
ere 'not responding to the subpoena. You tried to stop Rever-
"obynes from discussing the case with the people, and then
\, they arrived, they were given expense money and food
y, and apparently spent the night there before they went
hany further procedure. Is that--
."PlULLIPS. Yes, sir. Any allegations that were made concern-
he fingerprinting or-what were the other allegations, please,
tor?
, ator DENTON. Photographed, and handwriting samples were
,Ii, you know, when they got to Mobile.
,t.' PHILUPS. That is ludicrous. That did not happen.
nator DENTON. Ludicrous.
his is with reference to the question of the percentage of the
'ulation racially: in 1980, whites, 67.6 percent; blacks, 31.4 per-
!It; other, 1 percent. That is Mobile the city of Mobile.
What do you know about the percentage of absentee ballots? I
've general estimates. Can you be more specific about the absen-
e ballots in the 1982 and 1984 elections in Perry County?
''Mr. PHILUPS. I will be as specific as I possibly can. In 1982, there
re 1,000 cast. From my figures, one out of every five voters in
'rry County in 1982 voted absentee.
Senator DENTON. That is compared to I in 1,000 in Jefferson
_unty?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Absolutely correct.
!In1984, I think there were 800-some-odd absentee ballots cast.
, Senator DENTON. How would you describe the reaction of the wit-
esses in a little more detail when they found out their ballots had
'een altered?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Well, a lot of them were devastated. I visited the
eltons, who were named in the indictment as some of the ballots
at were changed, and they were really devastated and they really
ook it rather bad, you know. They were really upset about it.
And take in mind that some of the Sheltons are not old people. A
.ot of those people were in their 20's and 30's, OK. See, not all of
hese people who were a victim of this voter fraud was senior citi-
'zens; they were young people.
•. I mean, I look out my office window in the Perry County court-
house and people were sitting around on the steps voting absentee.
XIlhat is not what the absentee process-that is not the purpose of
"the absentee process.
, You are only supposed to vote absentee, one, if you are out of the
'county that day, if you are working; two, you are sick and you are
in a nursing home or something. That is the only time you vote
absentee.
Senator DENTON. To your knowledge, was any person inter-
viewed, harassed or intimidated by the FBI?
278
Mr. PHILLIPS. Well, let me say this, Senator: I did not get aroQ
to all the interviews which the FBI conducted. The interviews
I participated in-if we went to a person's house and they did
want to cooperate, I strongly urged that FBI agent to let i
leave it alone.
But there were only a few where people did not cooperate alt .
never d i d - - . :
Senator DENTON. Congressman Conyers was to testify here t~'
he excused himself and I guess he is out there. We have his. t.
many in writing and it has to do with the appearance of ~
Turner before Congressman Conyers' subcommittee..;
Before that subcommittee, Mr. Turner said that the polls,.
open only from 1 to 5 p.m., and that that is why people need.
vote absentee ballot. Wauld you respond to t h a t ? , ; .
Mr. PHILLIPS. Well, Senator, I am an appointed poll inspec
Perry County; I work the polls myself. The polls are open, I be
from 7 or 8 until 6 in the afternoon. . .••,
Senator DENTON. Seven or eight o'clock in the morning unti.
the afternoon?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right, until 6 in the afternoon. .
Senator DENTON. I will I;>e asking Mr. Conyers if he is aware
Turner's testimony in that respect was erroneous. ,:
Turner also told that subcommittee that the FBI intery\e
1,000 people. My information is that less than 200 were intervie
in this case. Could you comment on that? .
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.
Senator DENTON. Turner said before that subcommittee that
bus trip from Perry County Mobile, one person had a stroke
had a heart attack. That is sort of beyond the testimony,W
ceived from Mr. Turner today.
No one on the bus was ill. Can you attest to that? ','
Mr. PHILLIPS. No one was ill subsequent-you know, to my
sonal knowledge, no one was subsequently ill either.
.Senator DENTON. We he!lrd from Robert Turner today;
Albert Turner's brother. This is Albert Turner's testimony
the House subcommittee.
Turner, the one who testified before the subcommittee, the,
er of the gentleman here today, said .there were three eli.
trips to Mobile, and I believe that you can attest to the fa
there was only one, is that correct?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, sir.
Senator DENTON. Turner said the 1982 grand jury report.
mending Federal investigation was inserted later. I amnq
what that means, but maybe you do. It was added to the grM:.
report later. Do you know whether that-- 'oj
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is not true. That grand jury was sign.
Jesse Billingsley, a black grand jury foreman, at that par1j
time.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Turner also testified before th!ltSll,
mittee that 10 to 15 FBI ageltts worked for 6 months. Ibeli.eMe
is incorrect; that something like 10 worked maybe 3 or 4 dllY!!
couple of occasions. Is that correct? .
Mr. PHILLIPS. Repeat the question, please, again, sir.
279
"Senator DENTON. Yes. Would/ou tell me about how many FBI
nts worked on the case an for about how long, how many
?
, . PHILLIPS. Is that the 1984 case?
ator DENTON. Yes.
. PHILLIPS. Well, there were-I will answer it like this. Gary
was in charge-special agent out of Selma-was in charge of
investigation. There were FBI agents in and out who were-
hly, it was Gary Clem; Leslie Soo, who is an Oriental FBI
t; John Kilday-I believe his name is John; Ed Greenwall; a
g lady by the name of-one female FBI agent.
ould not say no more than six or seven.
!'tor DENTON. For how many days? He said for 6 months
were 10 to 15.
r. PHILLIPS. No; I think they came in and I think the investiga-
was finalized in about 8 to 9 weeks.
nator DENTON. And about how many days, total, do you think
:FBI were actually in presence in Perry County doing work, or
at hard to say?
r. PHILLIPS. That is hard to say, but like I said previously, the
igation was consummated in about 8 to 9 weeks.
i1ator DENTON. Mr. Phillips, when you became involved in the
, y County vote fraud investigation, did anyone, black or white,
, pt to influence or intimidate you with respect to your role in
'investigation?
. PHILLIPS. Yes, sir. I was receiving abusive phone calls in my
, at home. It was hard for me to socialize without public abuse
certain members of the community. In 1982, I was harassed
,.assaulted outside the Perry County Courthouse by Spencer
e.
)Vas leaving the courthouse, going home. He came up behind
,nd grabbed the back of my sports coat. And I quote, "If you do
e,ave my people alone, I am going to get you."
nator DENTON. He was a member of the Perry County Civic
e?
·,PHILLIPS. Yes; he later apologized, but only at the request of
f Hood. Spencer Hogue was working as a jailer at that par-
f time and I was not interested in having Mr. Hogue pros-
, but I did ask for an apology face to face.
, instead, he calls me at home on the telephone. Someone who
s, yOU like that, you know, there is a better way to apologize
,ebody than using the telephone. So I considered it not to be
ology.
'litor DENTON. Are you related in any way to Mr. Albert
r, the defendant in the Perry County case?
PHILLIPS. Well, not directly related, but Albert Turner's
~f, E)dward Turner, is married to my father's blood sister.
ator DENTON. Well, you painted a picture of interesting
"e and degree in Perry County, one which you have stated is
nal in scope, one which has become more and more familiar to
nd I want to make sure I understand it just for my own per-
'.orientation.
, ,old leaders of the activist civil rights organizations, and you
,tell me which ones, but to some degree some of them, are tend·
280
ing to carry forward an effort to either establish or maintain" con-
trol which is manifest through elected officials who are responsiye
to their leadership.' .%
On the other side, there are some black-and I would like you to
give me an idea of the size of that proportion in Perry County-
who feel that while insufficient progress has been made in the
achievement of equality of opportunity for blacks in areas such.as
education, social opportunities, perhaps business opportunities,
they have noted a great deal of progress and wish to place more
emphasis on taking advantage of that progress, working towatd
economic advance with a deemphasis of the racial and controlled
political unity maintained by those who were previously engaged in
leading an entirely valid civil rights struggle, or one which, in its
purpose and generally in its means, Was correct. .. / , .
If that is not a fair statement, would you please correct·it to
what you think would b e ? · ' "
Mr..PHILLIPS. I would say that is a fair statement.
Senator DENTON. Do you have an affidavit from a Mr. Reese BU·
lingslea?" ,
Mr. PHILLIPS. Sir, yes; I have an affidavit, but I forwarded it to
somebody.
Senator DENTON. All right. We have it in the committee and we'
j u s t - _ ' i
Mr PHILLIPS. I do not have a copy of it, no. "'~;
Senator DENTON. Without objection, I will put that affidavit··)\y
Billingslea in the r e c o r d . , .•..
We will ask you to read it for the record, if you will. This is frblrr:
Reese Billingslea, a candidate in the election to which you referie'Ql'
and if you will read and then make any comments you care'
make about it.
Mr PHILLIPS. Senator?
Senator DENTON. Yes?
Mr. PHILLIPS. The affidavit of John Anderson was forward"
me; this is the wrong one.
Senator DENTON. Wrong one.
Senator HEFLIN. Do you have an extra copy of the Billingsl
fidavit? ..
Senator DENTON. I will let you use this one, Senator Heflin
and Senator East-until I can find a copy.
If you would, would ,You read it out loud for the record?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, SIr. It is an affidavit, State of Alabama, 'P'
County. .
Before me, the undersigned authority, personally appeared Reese Billingslea','
being duly sworn, deposes and says as follows. , -'-
My name is Reese Billingslea and I am 56 years of age. I am a resident of M'
Perry County, Alabama, and I am employed by Mutual Savings Life Insuran
pany. I have been so employed for the past 37 years. , "",'J
I was elected as County Commissioner in 1976 and have been reelected t"'..9
since that time. I was one of the first black candidates elected in Perry Count
bama. In September of 1984, I was a candidate for reelection in the Democr"'
mary. I was oppos'ed by Cecil Howard, who is a black man, who was endorse
Perry County Civic League. ..'
During the campaign, I was approached by many of my supporters, who i
me that the blatant falsehoods being promoted by my political opposition~I.
formed that my opposition had stated publicly that they would do anything
rid of me, r ,\
281
After consulting with people throughout the county, I became convinced that the
:'.c,oncerted, well-organized effort was being made to steal the election from me
,through the absentee ballot box,
I ,Many of my closest supporters were receiving absentee ballots for which they had
not applied, and were being assisted in voting said ballots. They were told to wait
.!1,intil November to ,vote for Reese,
which was the general election.
::, I was personally aware of the inordinant number of requests for absentee ballots
coming to the office of the absentee election manager,
who happens to be Ms. Mary Auburtin, the circuit clerk of Perry
County.
Senator DENTON. That is an aside by you, is that correct?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Pardon, sir?
Senator DENTON. What you just said is not--
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right, exactly.
Senator DENTON. OK.
Mr. PHILLIPS [reading]:
And I obtained copies of the lists of the absentee ballot requests, a public record,
by paying 25 cents per copy. 1 endeavored to politically counter the fraud-by mailing
literature to every person on that list, which 1 was fortunately able to do.
Late in the week of August 30th, 1 contacted the Civil Rights Division, United
States Department of Justice, in Washington, D. C., to ask for the assistance and
direction in assuring a fair and impartial election.
'.\~J specifically requested assistance from the United States Department of Justice
because that agency is viewed in Perry County as being highly professional and im-
lB-artial, and a prior grand jury had also requested their help.
-I was referred to United States Attorney's Office, Southern Division, State of Ala-
b~ma, by the Civil Rights Division, and 1 thereupon contacted our local district at-
forney, Roy Johnson, and inquired as to whether he was acquainted with the Honor-
table Jeff Sessions,
~~,:t\t this _point in time, the district attorney telephoned Jeff Sessions and intro-
'du'ced me to him. 1 spoke with him and requested his assistance. From that point,
tl~,e investigation commenced which led to the indictment and trial of Albert
Turner, Evelyn Turner and Spencer Hogue.
·::.lFrom everything that 1 was aware, Mr. Sessions and the United States Attorney's
Office handled the investigation with the highest professionalism.
.. c This is a true and correct statement, to the best of my knowledge and belief.
Sign,~~J Reese Billingslea" the 12th of March, 1986.
~nator DENTON. Mr. Billingslea gave you an affidavit in lieu of

(coming here.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes.
Senator DENTON. So that is why I thought it appropriate that
ou read it.
Before turning it over, I will just conclude this questioning round
om me with a question of asking what your opinion is respecting
·t;,Je$ferson B. Sessions' racial sensitivies, fairness, objectivity,
alifications, and suitability for appointment as a judge' of the
oS. District Court for the Southern District of Alabama.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Well, dealing with Mr. Sessions from a professional
'rspective, it is my opinion that he is fit to serve on the Federal
nch. Now, as far as these racial slurs about the Klan, the ACLU,
CP, let me just say this: A person who is an adult and a pro-
ional and who is in the company of others, and those others are
essionals-a person ought to be able to derive from a certain
on's demeanor and the context in which he or she says things
" ther or not it is a joke or whether or not that that person's
ate of mind intends for that statement to be malicious, OK.
282
I make racial jokes, but they are not malicious; they a
wanton. There is a difference. Everybody does. If I was being
nated for Federal district judge and somebody said that about
would say the same thing that Jeff said, OK. ,
You know, you have to look at a person's ,demeanor, the CO
in which he says things, and you have to be, able to deter
and there were lawyers in his office when that was said"you
they know what wantonness and maliciousness is. So why q",.
ulous about it? .
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.
Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Phillips, you, of coutse, are State a
district attorney; Mr. Roy Johnson is the district attornlly
many counties does Mr. Johnson have? ," h
Mr. PHILLIPS. The Fourth Judicial Circuit is the large
graphical circuit in the State of Alabama. He has five co
6,000 square miles.
Senator HEFLIN. What is it?
Mr. PHILLIPS. The counties?
Senator HEFLIN, The counties. Dallas, Wilcox, Marion,
B i b b . " "
Mr. PHILLIPS. Bibb, Hale, Perry, Dallas, and Wilcox countjei
Senator HEFLIN. Now, are you the only assistant district
ney--
Mr. PHILLIPS. I must correct you, sir. I just finished Iii",
and I sat for the bar last month and I am pending results.
Senator HEFLIN, You have just recently become a lawyer?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes. '
Senator HEFLIN, So in other words, you were not a laWyer\\(,
this was-- ,:"
Mr. PHILLIPS. I was investigator during the voter rights tria);"
Senator HEFLIN. Well, I misunderstood; I thought you had b
lawyer.
Were you going to law school at that time? "
Mr. PHILLIPS, Exactly, I have since graduated from law sch.
Senator HEFLIN. Were you' going to Jones or something iff
gomery?'li~
Mr. PHILLIPS. Miles School of Law. '
Senator HEFLIN, What?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Miles School of Law in Birmingham.
Senator HEFLIN. Miles?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes. ,' t
Senator HEFLIN. All right, sir. Are you now an assistatlt'~i
attorney? ox
Mr. PHILLIPS. I am assistant to Roy Johnson-legal assi,~
Roy Johnson. r
Senator HEFLIN. But are you listed as one of his attorn ,
an assistant?
Mr. PHILLIPS. No; the bar results are pending. I took the'JJ
month. or
Senator HEFLIN. In other words, you have not passed yet:,'
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right, exactly. '",'1\
Senator DENTON. He said his title was legal assistant'to'tIl'
tleman. rn
283
Senator HEFLIN. All right, sir. I do not know whether you are
wledgeable on this or not. There had been some charge that in
ard to this that instead of going to Mobile that the activities
taining to this trial, some aspect of it, should have been in
a, which was-how far is Selma from Marion, Perry County?
r. PHILLIPS. It is approximately 26 miles, going east.
nator HEFLIN. Mobile is 160 miles away?
r. 'pHILLIPS. Yes, sir.
nator HEFLIN. I am not sure whether it is the charge that the
should have been struck or whether the grand jury should
met in Selma as opposed to Mobile. I suppose maybe grand
sfrequently meet in the largest city.
\1t was there any question about whether the grand jury was to
t in Mobile or Selma?
r'PHILLIPS. The answer would be yes. I do not know the logis-
. of that, but that was being recommended that the grand jury
in Selma.
'hator HEFLIN. In other words, you do not know the details of
r.PHILLIPS. I do not know the logistics of that.
'niitor HEFLIN. Well; I will inquire of somebody else about that.
ou, of course, have stated about Mr. Dobynes' statement and
~ffidavit that, in pertinent part, to put it in proper perspective
k the questions-and to do it, I will read it. .
on:' r-arrived at the Madon departure site in early October, I saw a bus sur·
ed by six Alabama State troopers, three or four Mario,neity policemen, -and
'nine FBI agents and four State game wardens. It looked like an armed camp.
,w'~ 'is that' correct or incorrect, or how is it incorrect?
t.PHILLIPS. I would like to read the-that is incorrect; I was
e. But I would like to read the statement of Chief John Ander-
. who is the chief of police of the city of Marion, AL.
n October 22,1984, my"-I am on the fourth paragraph on the
'"ge.,
ator DENTON. Without objection, we will enter into the record
tement and the previous affidavit.
davits follow:]
284
Atfi4avi~·ot O.C. DoBYNES

on the Nomination of
Jefferson Beauregard s.s.ion., III
tor APpointment to the
United states Distriot Court
tor the Southern District of Alabama
I, O.C. DOBYNES, J:leinq d.uly ',sworn, depose and

follow. 1
1. I am a resident of!' Perry county, Alabama.
retired sohool teacher and a pastor for t ....o
rural West Alabama. I have lived 1n Perry county all my lif~,_:,
have been deeply involved in county affairs

2. I ran for a seat on the Perry
september 4, 1984. I lost the electionJ my opponent,
Ward, was elected to the commission.
3. A few daysatter the election, a former student
Mary Pryor, told me that the FBI had 'brought
to her house and that it'had been chanqad. She told
name had been oros.ed out and Mr. Ward's name had an
She sale! she had voted for me' and asked Who I, had
ballot to. I told her I mailed it at the u.s. Post,
Harion to the Circuit Clerkls Office and didn't know
qot chllnqed.
4. Later that month, LaVonne Phillips, investiqatO,
the District Attorney's offic~ and an FBI aqent came to my,
te question me about the absentee ballotinq. I told them I
only talk in a court of law, and the FBI aqent said he would
me subpoenaed.
5. When the SUbpoena arrived, an attached instruction,
announced that all the witne.s.s from Marion would be
to the federal courthou.e in Mobile by chartered bUs,
in.tructed to brinq personal items for an overnlqht stay.
S. When I arrived at the Marion departure site iA,;"
October, I saw a bus surrounded by six Alabama
three or tour Marion city policemen, about nine
~our state qame warden.. It looked like an an armed c
285
courthouse was blocked oft and about eiqht

different corners with their quns drawn. I
earned that law enforcement officers surrounded the city while
be!n; loaded with witnesses. It was oneot the
imposing and chaotic scenes I have ever witnessed.
25 people .. many of them in their seventies,
even nineties, most ailing' and all friqhtened -
bus under the watchful eye of more than 20
med police officers. Two marked police cars escorted the bus
,,:~ts nearly five hour journey to Mobile.
7. During the trip I questioned the need for armed quards.
e ~esponse of the authorities (Lavonne Phillips of the D.A. 's
aboard the bus was eo accuse me of coaching the
8. The bus trip took its toll on some of the more feeble
Ni.nety-three-year-old Red Jackson, 'had i!l. stroke, .oon
his return to Harion. Another elderly witness, sutfered a
attack.
9. Themorninq after' our arrival, District Attorney Johnson
Agent Garry Clem asked me to ride over to the oourthouse
them. Atter gsttipg in the car Agsnt Clem informed me that
;;P:t:Yor told him she had given me her absentee ballot. I
that it was true that I had mailed it at the Harion post
~~ent Clem said that he personally saw Albert Turner put
Pryor's ballot in the mail the night before the eleotion.
~~·I ~aid that was impossible, Agent Clem replied that if I was
j";\r\9 to say that to' the grand jury I may as well go home. He
changed the sUbject and said he had heard I vas coaching the
asses on the bus to Mobile and said that he "would not
that. II
10. I was the last witness to be called that afternoon.
federal attorney asked. me what I knew about the "voting
dil and Mary pryor's absentee ballot? Could I explain how
Pryor's ballot had been changed? Had I given the ballot to
t Turner? X told them that I mailed Mrs. Pryor's ballot,
she had told me she had voted for him, and that I believed
286
her. The way it appeared to me was that Johnson and

definitely didn't want me to testify after they found out what
~.8timony was 90in; to be.
11. After the bus trip back to Perry 'collnty, on at
three occasions the FBI oame to my' ho=e 'accompanied by La
Phillips and. tried to get me to change my testimony. I toid"it,

I would not ohange my grand jury testimony because it
truth.
12. In the 1984 Democratic primary, Reese
against Setzer Howard for a seat on the Perry County commls~
Mr. Billinq8leY was not supported by the Perry County -C'
Leaqus. t was present when Ms. Emma Sims reoeived her abBe
ballot in the mail from the Cirouit Clerk, Mary Auburtin'.·'
AUburtin i_white. She ie responsible for supervising the
absentee balloting process in Perry County.
the envelope it contained, in addition to
~he campaign- literature of Reese Billingsley,
candidate supported by the civic League.
13 • I have personally been told by Mrs.
would never vote again as a result of the federal
t have al.o heard a nU1lll::>er ot other black people say theY'"
not go to the polls anymore because ot what they
way the witnesses in this case were treated.
Under penalty
Sworn to and subscribed before

me this ~ day of March, 1986.
My oo",,1..1on ."P1r.. '7J"Id /iI, If f'7
."
287
AFFIDAVIT
Before me, Sabrah H. Agee, the undersigned Authority, came the
John Anderson, Chief of Pollee, Cit)' of Marion, Per'ry County, Alabama,
and says as follows:
My name is John Anderson. t' am thirty-nine years of age, and a Jife~
o'f Marion,' Perry. County t Alabama. 1 have served the City of
Police Chief for the past fifteen years, and was serving in this
,.ty· during the Vote Fraud Investigation in 1984.
On 'October 2!, 1984, Special Agent Leslie Sue of the Federal Bureau
, vestigation contacted my office and informed me that he had received
'iri\~tion that there was going to be an attempt to preyent the Federal Grand
witnesses from going to Mobile to testify before the Grand" Jury concerning
Investigation. When I received this In.formation,
s'dedded that the police department would provide whatever security necessary
:Otect these witnesses from harrassment.
'> On October 22, 1984, my department supplied two officers, Lt. Don Caver,
Jones, as security while the witnesses were boarding the
Also on the scene was Conservation Officer Mike Nichols,
County at that time, and who worked out of, the
Three-F. B. I. Agents were also present at the loading
aforementioned Special Agent Leslie Sue, and two were agents
do not know the names of the Montgomery Agents. Capt.
Alabama State Troopers Office, came to Marlon, but waited
Marion Police Department, along with three other Troopers. The bus
orie, was in a public parking lot, next to the U. S. Post Office, and it
t1y across the street from the Perry County Courthouse. After all
288
Affidavit of John Anderson Page 2
the Grand Jury witnesses were loaded onto t~e bus, the Alabama State
drove over to the loading site· and waited for the bus to leave for MobJl~;
the best of my .knowledge, there were no other Law E.nforcement Offlcers'

\;~d'·
to the aforementioned detail, and there were no other Law Enforcement 0'
• ;"[.(.li/',-
present ~t the loading site. The only uniformed Law Enforcement personnel
"-;1
the Immediate vlclnity of the bus were Lt. Caver, and OUlcer Jones, of the
_'c'
Marion Police Departmen~. There were no streets blocked, and at no. tir,ne
any weapons' displayed other than the pistols belonging to the unlfor":led ,~ff~~
at the site, and these pistols were in the officer's holsters at all times.
The above statement Is true and correct to the best of my

-and bellef•.
o lee
Sworn and subscribed before me on this the 17th day of Marth,

289
qr~ DENTON. Go ahead, please.
BILLIPS [reading]:
lier.22, 1984, l11:Y department supplied two officers, 'Lt" Don Caver, who is
W~atrolman Ga~riel Jones, who is black, as security while the witnesses
ding the- bus bOtlhd for Mobile. _
the. scene was conservation officer Mike' Nichols; who wa:s assigned to
Dty _at that time and who worked out of t~e Marion Police Department.
. ~nts were !lIsa Pt'esent at the loading site,
aforementioned special a'gents, Leslie 800':""-"'""':'
,"';owere agents from the city of Montgomery. Also, Cap-
swas there, Alabama Btate troopers, and one person who
;lad,wllo was not mentioned in this statement, was a black
rooper by the name of Billy Smith was there, and that was
or.HEFLIN. How many is that?
.IiILLIPS. I did not count, sir; I just read the statement.
r)'EFLIN. I count froni you say there would be nine.
ILLIPS, _0 K, nine.
r DENTON. If my colleague will defer, it does note that
f them waited inside the Marion Police Department. In
,!iILLIPS. Captain Jones did.
. rDENToN. And three other troopers, and I believe they
cort for the bus.
rHEFLIN. Well, how many were there altogether, about 12
cers there at the time?
ILLIPS. I do not think it was 12, sir. Well, let us count
r HEFLIN. Well, I understand from Senator Denton they
ddition to the nine that I counted.
IIILLIPS. Well, there were some police officers that were
..a,Marion Police Department that were not on the scene
e>buswas loaded with the witnesses.
)'i,HEFLIN. All right, sir. Well, are you saying that it did
!iI~e an armed camp?
IPS. No.
HEFLIN. Now, he says the street aCross from the court-
blocked off and about eight officers stood on different
.h: their guns drawn. Was there any of that that went
IDLIPS. That is ridiculous. No.
HEFLIN [reading]:
that law enforcement officers surrounded the city while the buses were
g.,with witnesses. It was one of the most imposing and chaotic scenes I
·tnessed. . ,, . , '~
tely 25 people, many of them in their seventies, eighties, or even nine-
ll·ailing aij.d ,~ll frightened, were loaded into a bus under the watchful
han 20 armed police officers. Two marked police Cars escorted the bus
>q.~hour journey to Mobile.
ips. That is incorrect, sif.

EFLIN [reading]:
)#p, I questioned the need for the armed guards. The response of the
r. ~avon Phillips,
290
of the D.A.'s office, aboard the bus was to accuse me of coaching the " ..
You have explained that previously. " ,
The bus trip to9kits toll,on some of the more feeble witnesses, Ninety.~~.i
old Red Jackson had a stroke soon after his return to Marion, and ailo~h~,r
witness suffered a heart attack. '
Is that correct or incorrect?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Sir, there is no-I have no personalkribw
that. All I know is that on the way going down, Mr. JacliS
who was the other person, sir? "
Senator HEFLIN. It says, "Ninety.three·year-old Red Ja
a stroke soon after his return to Marion, and anothere
ness"-it does not name him-"suffered a heart attack."'''; ,
Mr. PiIILLIPS. That is not true.
Senator HEFLIN. It does not say when. "
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is not true. ,""
: Senator HEFLIN. All right, sir. Now, you were talking'a
absentee ballots and the various things about them. Abolith
homes, is it legal or illegal to use absentee ballots for peop
are confined to nursing homes? 'n
Mr. PHILLIPS. It is legal.
Senator HEFLIN. Legal.
Mr. PHILLIPS. I mean, what I was saying, Senator Hefli'
people that were sitting around the courthouse-yc>ung'
younger than I am; I am 26 years old-was voted ahsen'
know, that is hard to explain. You know, they do not'!\'
basis to vote absentee. The polls are just around the cornel'J
Senator HEFLIN. The purpose of an absentee ballot is ef
caimot get to the polls or you are absent from the State, as
stand it, or your county.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Also, let me mention One thing that'!
mention. When I was an investigator in 1982, Mr. Turner
picking up some of these ballots-there were not any'
,1982; I am not charging Mr. Turner with any guilt, but M
was a candidate in 1982. '
Section 17, Alabama Criminal Code, sternly spells out'
candidate is to solicit, pick up, or even-you are not 'sup
eVen touch an absentee ballot if you are a candidate.' lot'
Do you want to look at some of this I have, some ofth
I have here?
Senator HEFLIN. Well, they have been made a part of'th
and I see there was not any alteration in my name. [Laug
That is all I have.
,Senator DENTON. Senator East.
Senator EAST. For the sake of time, Mr. Chairman, I .'.
continue. Thank you. ,";
Senator DENTON. Well, I do not know which medi", re
tives are here or not. I know that there were many reporl
day of the unmitigated allegations. I believe that, m!\,
media have had a great deal to do with favorable devel',
civil rights in this country, and I will particularly cite w '
seen in the Washington Post in the way of the fairl),
spect to distributions of photographs, :considering't
makeup of the population in the area.
291
"I have to say as a Senator, that I am disappointed that in
treassllrances made that "I will hang in there with you ail
ay, Jerry, like I did' before," that there is not a crowd here
the extenuation, the development, the truth, of this matter.
'Tpnly have some hope that, there will be some revelation
the press of what h~pened. I know there are some staff-
'eo but I have got to runt what happened the last time I
~,curity and terrorism earing, which was very typical.
'red " hearing on Li~a's support of terrorism and the ac-
?f the radical entent . T am proud of that hearing. It, like
arings, has been pu" lished ail over the world It is in uni-
,and coileges ail ov the world.
et, though the he ing lasted many hours, the only men-
Ahe Washingtqn ost was about Senato,r Specter having
ie apd making opening statement and Senator Leahy
een here and aking an opening statement; no mention of
in the hear' g whatever, and none of my coileagues are
take the tro, ble to read the transcript of that hearing.
myself in a difficult bind here in respect to trying to devel-
, ledge, in this body about terrorism, and.! chailenge anyone
at I have approached it in anything but a moderate, bal-
rch for truth with respect to terrorism.
pe that the liberal media will [oilow the real meaning of
,liberal in presenting what has happened here today, be-
,0 not know any other way that we are going to get the
ss among the Senators on the floor of what happened here
',to thank LaVon Phillips for showing the courage to come
fy, and, ask him if he is still receiving any threats regard-
~timony or his activities in the trial. ,
lLLlPS. Well, nO,sir, not at this particular time, but like I
tloned, if you work In a iaw enforcement capacity, and es-
"district attorney's qffice, if that evidence is prima facie,
oing to have to put aside your political convictions.
, cell. professional, whether he is in the legal, profession,
, whatever it may be, starts compromising his position, ail
an you wake up one morning and you are corrupt. You
iaven know it, but you are, you know, and that is just the
,atit now.
'ow, it does not bother me, but I guess that is life.
r" DENTON. Thank you again, Mr. Phillips. You may
here you are or excuse yourself.
q:y D. Thompson, of Atlanta, GA, regarding this hearing.
ii have an opening statement?
STATEMENT OF LARRY D. THOMPSON
6MPSON. Yes; I do, Senator.
lirman and members of the committee, I appreciate the
ty to appear before you today. I am presently a member
!lnta, GA, law firm of King & Spaulding. I becallle a
f the firm in February of this year. Prior to that time,j
,ce September 1982, as U.s. attorney for the northern dis-
~o,:gia, with headquarters in Atlanta, GA;
292
I was nominated by President Reagan for the positionofU.
torney in August 1982, and was confirmed by the Senate the
month. .
I am here, Mr. Chairman, because my friend, Jeff Sessions"
me to arpear on his behalf, and I do so without hesitation or
vation. have known Jeff since October 1982. "
I clearly remember our .first meeting, which occurred ina>
ed motel room in Biloxi, MS, with 10 other U.S. attortley
throughout the Southeast. The occasion of our meeting waS'
mation of the Southeastern Organized Crime Drug Enfdr
Task Force. "',
President Reagan then had recently announced the forma
12 regional drug task forces to combat' drug smuggling a.nd
trafficking. Atlanta was designated as the headquarters",
Southeastern task force and I was given the responsibility ·of
lishing the task force and coordinating its activities in the·S
Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Teil
. The task force consisted of Federal prosecutors from the'
U.S. attorneys' office, as well as agents from the FBI, DE
Customs Service, and the Bureau of Alcohol, TobaccoaW'
arms. C
For a new U.S. attorney, the establishment of the tas

clearly represented a challenge. I asked for, and received; t
port of all U.S. attorneys in the region in this endeavor,
tor East, includinl' the three U.S. attorneys in North CaroW
ceived great support from them.
However, the support I received from Jeff was enthusi~s
complete. At my request, and sometimes on rather' short·
Jeff would travel outside his district to attend a meetinifo'
ference dealing with the task force, dealing with task f61'
ations or cases. He was one of the first U.S. attorneys-to"
task force fully operational in his district.
And throughout the usual difficulties incurred in comill
tive multiagency and multidistrict investigations, Jeff
pletely supportive of my leadership of the task force.
loyal colleague. ', .
However, my relationship with Jeff goes beyond that ofti'
sional one. During my tenure as U.S. attorney, Jeff and! a
several meetings and conferences together. We have hadJil
versations. On two occasions, we roomed together while' d'
status in order to cut our e x p e n s e s . , ';',
I believe I got to know Jeff Sessions as a man, and state"!.?
my place today that Jeff is a good man and an honest m,
tainted by any form of prejudice.
I have read some of the statements and testimony in op
to Jeff's nomination. I do not dismiss them lightly. They
but they do not comport with what I know about Jeff;' ",'
I am a member of the National Bar Association. While'.
agree with all the views of the NBA, I respect the organit '
acknowledge the important role NBA members have play'
turing my professional career. .::i'/
I have worked very hard over the years for the Atlanta·
in connection with its educational program for minority'yo,
[
,!
293
'd~rstand the essential role the NAACP has played in making it
i\Jle forme to function professionally the way I do today.
,ake my appearance before you gentlemen seriously. I was born
Oor f"mily in Hannibal, MO. My father was a railroad labor-
pfortunately, I have experienced racism in my life.
; I know Jeff Sessions not as a symbol, not just as a colleague,
s a man and a friend, and I admire him, for he has revealed
sOme of the unfortunate circumstances in his early years
e has had to overcome in order to function in our pluralistic
ty. '
'ave lived in Missouri, Michigan, and Georgia, and in the proc-
,have met many people, including many lawyers. There are
y I could not support for a position as important as that of a
, ,istrict court judge. I could not support someone who I be-
was,deficient in ability or defective in character.
at better way is there to jud!(e someone than to know him? I
Jeff. He will serve our natIon well as a U.s. district court
. ,And most importantly for your consideration today, he will
n acompletely fair and impartial manner.
'ank you for your attention, and I will be happy to answer any
.'Rns you may have.
'litor DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Thompson. I must note that
ebert did not know that well, was not that close with him,
't he recounted some conversations which seemed to have
dfrom the same kind of flawed memory that required him
, draw what he previously said about the Conecuh County sit-
n..
dI think your testimony-a man who knows him, who has
ed with him-is very important in trying to place in perspec-
is'qualifications for the bench.
",some members of the media flinch when I made my previ-
, marks. I have got to say I do not mean that all media are
,,,,,nd liberal is not a bad word. I just mean that it is very
It for Senators to get to know what happens if the only thing
,ear are the allegations being printed on the first day and
o follow-up and no Senators. It is very difficult.
reciate the fact that most of them over there now are from
ate of Alabama, but I cannot help mentioning that the arti-
eferred to in the Washington Post was an AP dispatch, from
they chopped off the first part and just left the second part,
left me and the substance of the hearing out.
t has been going on for 5'12 years up here, and the Post is
these gentlemen read out there on the floor every morning.
is a problem. It is a problem with freedom, it is a problem
]W,~ice. When {'ou cannot get a letter to the editor of that
,pliblished, WhiCh I have tried to do ever since the first day,
ve got to wonder what freedom of the press really means.
m for whom?
'rhpmpson, you and Mr. Sessions were close and often dis-
.¥our offices and how they operated. How did you feel about
Y,' to personally try so many cases?
HOMPSON. My impression with Jeff-and that is based on
'scussionswith him regarding all kinds of matters, particu-
fi,cpnnection with our involvement in the Southeastern Orga-
294
nized Drug Task Force, and these were cases in which vI~('
common defendants or ,commonalities involved in the inv '
tion-is that he is an excel'tional p r o s e c u t o r . ' "
He is hard-working, he IS diligent, and I had the utmostfi'"
him in dealing with him on some of the very sensitive and'(j,8'
drug cases that we discussed. ' H,
Senator DENTON. Are there many other U.s. attorneys;1h
country who have tried 17 cases before a jury, includihll'
lasted 7 weeks, lover 4 weeks, and 2 lasting 2 weeks? "
Mr. THOMPSON. It is very difficult for a U.S. attorney wh~:,
administer an office, and make many different policy decisio,
administrative decisions, and investigative decisions to try c:
I have only been able to try two cases during my tenure,
attorney, and I admire Jeff for being able to try as maliyC
he did, especially the complex public official corruption'orlii
understand he tried in Mobile.
Senator DENTON. I am not a lawyer and it is hard for
relate. So it is particularly unusual that he would try the V
jority of these 17 cases alone-that is, without a cocounsel? •
Mr. THOMPSON. That is admirable. , ,"
Senator DENTON. Have you reached an opinion as to l\f
sions' ideals with respect to his suitability for office? Is he cQj
ted to being a good public servant and has he displayed N
temperament suitable to his nomination? ,
Mr. THOMPSON. Senator, in my opinion, based 011 sonl:W
frank and candid conversations that Jeff and I have had, Je
an exceptional public servant as U.S. attorney and he would,
exceptional publicservant as a U.S. district court judge. '"
We have had several-I do not want to repeat myself,
have had several candid and frank conversations aboutou
grounds and I think that Jeff is the kind of person that'
serve as a judge-he would be impartial, completely impartl'
fair, and 1 do not think that his character is tainted by any'
dice against anyone. ' 'oj'
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Thompson. '
Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Thompson, I think you shed some T
the issue of Mr. Sessions. You are a black man and you all"
together.'
Mr. THOMPSON. We did, on two occasions.
Senator HEFLIN. Have you noticed any, racial prejudice ,f
from him toward you or any other black m a n ? "
Mr. THOMPSON. Absolutely not, Senator Heflin, and I t '
thing that has impressed me about Jeff was that I was a ne
attorney in 198~. Jeff and my other colleagues throug~,if
southeastern regIon had served longer than I and I 'was·r '0
aPth~n~:';sident announced the formation of this drug t!t$'"

which covered five Southeastern States, and I had to step in"
an interloper, would be the best way to describe it, and try',!
only get that task force organized in our region, but to take'c'
over it.
And it was a tough job, and Jeff was-long before he w"
nated for the judgeship, Jeff was one of my strong sup
295
,g the, U.S. attorneys in our region. He stood behind me, ,he did
, hing I asked him to do, and 1 greatly appreciate that.
said in my prepared' statement, he was a loyal colleague.
~9r HEFLIN. You were appointed U.S. attorney in 1982?
THqMPSON. Yest sir.
,lItor HEFLIN. Are you a Republican?
; THOMPSON. Yes, sir.
ator HEFLIN. That is all.
ator DENTON. Do you have any questions, Senator East?
ator EAST. No.
,}tor DENTON. Mr. Eddie Menton, of the Mobile Press Regis-
'would you care to make an 'opening statement, Mr. Menton?
STATEMENT OF EDDIE MENTON
.' MENTON. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, 1
just make a brief statement. When you asked me if I would
il ~ere today, 1 think you wanted me to tell this committee
Jier or not there had been a perception in Mobile, based on my
rience in the newspaper business as city editor of the newspa-
d supervising reporters.
iiik you were asking, had we heard this or had we gotten the
g that there was this perception in Mobile, and 1 would say
) have never heard lawyers or judges or anybody make these
ents about Jeff Sessions that have been made up here.
ye been a friend of Jeff Sessions for about 14 years, so 1 have
illy a professional relationship, but also a friendship with Mr.
'oIls, an~ I have never heard hi-m make a racial slur or any of
~ort of thing.
nator DENTON. Could you give us an idea of the general opin-
f Jeff Sessions in the Mobile community? Any reason to be-
that he is prejudiced or that he has a reputation for racial
sitivity?
" MENTON. No, sir. 1 would say that he does not have that rep-
, n at all. The prosecutors in Mobile, both the State prosecutor
,he Federal prosecutors, have enjoyed a rather unique situa-
in that they have been prosecuting some very serious white-
brimes.
'1) think that the people of Mobile feel very good about the
utors in Mobile on both sides, and particularly in the U.S. at-
!soffice. where they took on the case;fixing trial and put two
'hi prison for fixing cases, and a city commissioner.
'ator PENTON. What is your area of reporting responsibility,
~ers()nal area?
MENTON, I supervise the city reporters, which includes the
§ystems and the investigating agencies.
1 r DENTON. How about in the past? What have you been
g about? I am trying to find out if you can establish the
.!lof contact you have with government officials, members of
)iness community and the general public in Mobile.
•. MENTON. Yes, sir. 1 was in sports for about 10 years at the
'llp~r. rwas business editor for 3 years and 1 have been city
,for nearly 3 years now.
I
296
Senator DENTON. What is the relationship of youtstW
Menton? ,,,r
Mr. MENTON. That is my father. ••
Senator DENTON. What offices has he held and does he noW
Mr. MENTON. He is a State senator in the State of Alaballl
Senator DENTON. Was he not a sheriff, too, before that? .'" h .
Mr. MENTON. He was a police chief.
Senator DENTON. Police chief?
Mr. MENTON. Yes.
Senator DENTON. What is his party?
Mr. MENTON. Pardon me?
Senator DENTON. What party is he, Democrat or Republica
Mr. MENTON. He is a Democrat. ;t
Senator DENTON. Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. I might say that he is a mighty fine De
too. [Laughter.] "
Mr. MENTON. Thank you, Senator. I will tell bim you sai
Senator HEFLIN. And I must say that your newspaper ha~'c,
Republican leanings. [Laughter.] ;
Would you say that that is an accurate depiction? '.
Mr. MENTON. Senator, I have nothing to do with the~.
page, but I think I would agree witb that. ,,')
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Menton, we are delighted to see you'
appreciate your coming. I have no questions. .
Mr. MENTON. Thank you, Senator.
Senator DENTON. In spite of the paper's leaning, youtd
elected to both offices, and I admire him very much.
Senator HEFLIN. They' support a Democrat now and the'
supported Bill and me. [Laughter.]
Senator East, do you have any questions?
Senator EAST. No questions.
Senator DENTON. William Kimbrough, former U.S."
southern district of Alabama.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM KIMBROUGH, JR..'
Do you have an opening statement, Mr. Kimbrough?'
Mr. KIMBROUGH. Mr. Chairman and members of .the,oo
my name is W.A. Kimbrough, Jr. I appear here in bah
confirmation of Jeff Sessions as U.s. district court judge.,.)'
I am a lawyer; I practice in Mobile and Chatom, AL.'
with the firm of Turner, Underdunk & Kimbrough. By, .
formation, I am a Democrat and have served as an ass'
attorney from 1962 to 1965 in Mobile, and as the U,
from 1977 to 1981 during the Carter administration. .L\
I appear here specifically for the purpose of respon
suggestion that Jeff Sessions is a racist or does not
perment to deal with people fairly that come befotet.
"lil
cause of their race, oreed, or any other reason. ... ,,';',.
I have known Jeff profeSSionally since 1975. Wheii:
U.S. attorney, he remained in that office as an assista
ney for about 2 years. I do not know him socially to "
degree. He is not a good friend of mine in the sens .
around. >!.; U
I am conoerned that the oharge of racism has been
him based on a recent case involving the voting situation
297
ty where the issue of contro,! of that county is up for grabs,
e'th'ere are strong political feelings on both sides.
people who have come here have testified that they feel that
. ere mistreated, and I am sure they do feel that way. But in
- tingsituation in any case ,involving a man's ballot or an
'e' there are always strong feelings, just as there are always
feelings in a boundary line dispute.
uestion is whether or not the decision to prosecute Wasmo-
eby some improper motive. The Justice Department, the
'gts Division, has tl)e overall responsibility to oversee civil
rosecutions, and particularly those involved in the voting
;rea.
Jeff earlier that if he had called me, I would have told him
out of that bed of trouble, and I think I was right There
1!1Jfuber of reasons for it. Jeff did not feel that way. Jeff felt
J1~t was a case that he should try and that the office should
d with, and they did so. They did not win the case.
t~,Often, in the South you do not win civil rights cases. That
to say they should not be brought I personally tried a
e~. of civil rights cases involving police brutality or alleged
'~rutality and I do not believe I won one of them.
"ot apologize to anyone for having brou~ht the case. There
.bable caUse to believe that somebody s rights had been
'and that they had been abused by somebody in authority.
~ring the case because the case needs to be brought because
'~~ needs to understand that the United States is looking at
ehtion. The Justice Department, in this particular situation
y County, obviously had a great deal of information. They
ei~ ,own sources of information in all counties, including
nty.
ow, I do not remember any election that ever came up
y,as in office either as an assistant or subsequently as the
qrney when I did not receive some complaint from Perry
County is a politically active county where people politic t j
d you cannot take politics out of politics. Now, the question
er or not that case, which has been relitigated in this spec-
,. the last 2 days, and random comments which any of us
e, buttress the allegation that he is a racist.
.somebody from the staff on this committee that the basic
"that I have with Jeff is that he is a Republican conserva·
''t I thought when you had a Republican conservative Presi·
had a right to submit to the Senate those persons who he
eSented his interests to serve as U.S. attorney and on the
bench.
ssions will serve well on the bench; he will treat people
:I)d I speak simply in protest to conclusions that suggest
ecan second·guess or look with hindsight at a particular
. and draw the inference that this was done for racial pur·
b not believe it was.
. disagree with Mr. Sessions on whether to have done it or
,not there. The question is, when you consider the overall
I"!,d .the oversight function of .the civil rights division in
e whether or not you may say that he was racially mo.
298
tivated in bringing that litigation, and I do not believe that h'e: 1
I would urge his confirmation. ' ,"
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Kimbrough.
Mr. Kimbrough, I do not mean to be cute with this questio
have you ever in your .life ever vote.d f?raHepubli9l\n/9,
office, and I say that WIth great admiratIOn for the kind of'
ment you just made? " "I
Mr. KIMBROUGH. I have abstained, but I have accepted tHe
of the evils. [Laughter.]
Senator DENTON. Is that sort of the definition of a yellq
Democrat? ' ~"
Mr. KIMBROUGH. Yes, sir. I am a yellow dog Democrat.'
Senator DENTON. Thank you.
Would you say from your experience in the U:S. attorneY'
and your associlition with Mr. Figures that he might haveii
ficulty in maintaining his cool, maybe, about raoial cases th'
up? "
I have been told that there were times when there Wlig
verse Supreme Court decision from his point of view,and I
~l"IC~. with what he did, nor do I have any criticisw,
As he said, you cannot take politics out of politics. If tH~
that is the way to go and Dr. Gilliard is wrong, they have' a'
go that way; it is a free country. But would you say thlit,
ures has had a rather tough time keeping his cool oeeasio
relating to people when that issue is up and might tend
overly suspicious, considering the earnestness of his own dd
soon? ' , '"
Mr. KIMBROUGH. Senator, I hired Thomas Figures lis an .
U.S. attorney. I think he is an outstanding lawyer. He did.'
standing job as an assistant in my office. ,"
I think Thomas became disaffected when the Republic~
into office and probably would have been better served to'!
I did. I would not wish to serve in a Republican administ,.
do nO,t have anything against you; I just do not want to, "','
you. [Laughter.] , "";'~
And I believe in all honesty that he may have had 'some'
ty there. '","
Senator DENTON. Well, how would you define that?'t
words, he might find-and I am not trying to discredit him'
were I he, I might be precisely the same way if I were in h'
position. , ,
He might, on occasion, find sinister motive in a perfec~
cent statement or action, particularly of the type you kif
referring to?
Mr. KIMBROUGH. He might, just as I m i g h t . ,
Senator DENTON. Have you ever seen anything or hea
thing critical of Mr. Sessions' civil rights record until t
County case? ' ','
Mr. KIMBROUGH. No, sir. " ,,;~/'
Senator DENTON. I think you have answered three or fo
tions here that I have just gone through in what you have"
If Mr. Sessions was correct in prosecuting the Perry Cd,1J
do you have any impression as to what effect this rigoro'
...., . .- . . , f ~,'
\ ",','
r,
,,t/
299
lin might have on other prosecutors? Could it be a form of in-
lItion and an effort to stop similar prosecutions?
,I am going to ask you as a yellow dog Democrat, corisidering
t that there is a Republican President, a Repl1blican Sllnator
~ first time from that State~and obviously, Mr. Meese is the
Jican'appointed Attorney General~with charges against
-if Jeff were not to stay there and he would appoint another
'ttorney, do you think he would be a little bit ,goosey about
,'into a civil rights case like this, maybe beyond the point of
'ce, or rather the point of the interest of justice, because he
'ot want to get an unfair allegation against him and a bad
ion?
iJffi!MBROUGH. I do not know. I do not have any opinion on
Senator; I really do not. It would not bother me.
ator DENTON. In summary, you do believe Mr. Sessions is
ed and has a judicial temperament that does not disqualify
KIMBROUGH. Yes; I do.
tor DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Kimbrough.
or Heflin.
tor HEFUN. I have no questions.
,tor DENTON. Senator East.
tor EAST. No questions.
, tor HEFLIN. We have got to be out of here at 4?
ator DENTON. Yes, sir; we are supposed to have been out of
'at 4, and I want to thank this panel. Senator Thurmond, our
an and the President pro tempore of the Senate, has asked
, e adjourn today in time to permit this room to be organized
ther function. I announced that this morning.
eed to finish the day no later than 4, 4:10, and that time is
e have two panels from which we have yet to hear and I
k~~
or HEFUN. I have just been told that Senator Biden was on
over here. I suppose they would like us to wait until he
e.
r DENTON. I wish to defer to Senator Biden. We were sup-
o adjourn at 4, as previously announced. I am doing this at
,ar of the chairman of the committee, not at my own choice.
:bring anyone back.
staff person reports that he wants to know what the chair-
.shes to propound as the future time for the hearing, and we
Iy need to defer to him on that as the senior minority rank-
ber.
,e we can get the information on the phone. Are any of his
still left? I can give the proposal on the telephone to him.
IMBROUGH. May we be excused?
,tor DENTON. Yes; the panel may be excused, and thank you
'lich.
se,]
,'tor DENTON. In order that people may relax, we will just
recess. Hopefully, he will arrive within 5 minutes, but the
ion of the chairman is that the hearing will resume with the
ing 10 witnesses tomorrow at 2 p.m.
300
It was our understanding and the understanding of. th,e
Senator Thurmond, that that had already been agreed, \9•.
,tor Biden, but w.~ will defer' ourselves and wait. Thos~,
waiting to testify, I am sure w~uld like know if that i~ 4
not, so I would suggest that they wait around. .,'
Otherwise, the hearing is in recess until we, hear frei'
Biden. ' '
[A brief recess was taken.] , ' ," <"
Senato, DENTON. If I can have your attention for justa'
Senator Biden,isreported to be on the way. If I did not an ,
,previously, the, intention is to adjourn u/ltil 2p.m" 'JJ
March 20, and I have just heard from his staffer that hit'
concur with that because he did not want it held over.
week. ;<J:{
But that is an opinion and I am still waiting for,him,11
tomorrow at 2 p.m. that we intend to reconvene. ' ,
We will stand in recess until he gets here.
[A brief recess was taken.]
Senator DENTON. The hearing will resume for thef6l1ci
nouncement. The ranking minority member, my distiiJ.',
league from Delaware, Senator Joseph Biden, concurs t
adjourn the hearing now and resume the hearing at 2.p("
day, March 20.
Senator BIDEN. That is tomorrow.
Senator DENTON. That is tomorrow, in this room.
We stand adjourned. ":
[Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the committee was adjourn~d:
'i'J
334
statement of Henry Sanders

stat. Senator for the 23rd District of Alabama
Mr. chairman and members of the Committee, my name i.

. . .'
Sanders. I am the State Senator for Alabama '. 23rd DiBtrt'
which includes much of the are. known &8 the Black Belt. I W
to ,thank you for the opportunity to app~ar before'you tOdat'
voice my strong opposition to the nomination of Jetter
. . -Vf
Sessions, III for a federal distrlct jUdgeahip tor the Sout .,
District of Alabama.
For the past rive years, Hr. Sessions has served alii
Attorney for the district in which many of my
reside. Based on hi. conduct in that aftice, I
Sessions lacks the competence, jUdgment, and fairness required:'
a federal jUdge. His failure to enforce federal civil rlqh
laws and his politically-motivated prosllcution of
civil riqhts leaders for votinq fraUd are just
e~ampl.' which indioate he d08S not pOllses. the
qualifications to be appointed to the federal bench.
I believe I have a unique perspeotive on the
sessions I appointment would have on the Southern Distrlci
Alabama. I have lived in that area for 14 years
inVOlved in election contests there since 19'2. I
the counties involved In the recent
investiqations. Participating as both an elected
defense attorney in these investiqations, I visited,'"
many persons directly and indireotly aaeoted
voting investigations and prosecutions.
To fully understand the impact of the voting
investigations in my area, it is
political landsoape. The Black Belt is oomposed of 12 cou·
ranqing from 42\: to 1B.2\: Black.
Black majority. Althouqh the Voting Rights Act was enaote
1965, the electoral progress for blacks has been
difficult. Black officiah .til-l do not come
representing these areas proportionately. ot
335
the Blaok Belt, only 76 of them are black. Even

,number 1s misleading since few of the elected black
higher otrio... For example, only one of the
jUdge. 1& black and only three of the twelve
i.C1,t jUdqes are black. There are ,no Blaok county-wide
,.4 o.ftielale in any county 'that does not have a Black
battle. have be.n inten.e and bitter, While

outnumber Whites, Whites retain econOmic and political
over the r8910n. Absente' voting baa played a crucial
elections for both White. and Blacks. The average margin
.eriously cont••ted election between a Whlte
*~at. and a Black candidate i. 18S8 than 200 votes,
Blacks were harmed by the absent.. proceas
Blacks would win at the polls only to be defeated when the
ballots came in. In fact, today, Whites st1l1 vote
more frequently than Blacks. When Blacks realized the
~e absente. vote, they learned the laws Qt the absentee
the leadership ot such persons ae Albert Turner,
an to use t.he process to their benetit. The absentee
!L,ia particularly cd tical tor Blacks since the counties
elderly persons are unable to qo to the potls tor
<reasons and'. a high percentage ot' blacks work out ot' the
newly discovered politica~power of Blacks has not come

injury. In 1Sl82, Blacks relied heavily on the absentee
and seoured control ot the County Commissions and Boards
ucation in five counties. The victory was bittersweet,
Local criminal inv.stiqaticns into the winners' use of
process were 800n initiated but not a single
aro.s trom the inv.stiqations. The political
investigation is especially apparent trom the
at in 'each county, the targets ot the investigations have
long-time Black civil rights leaders, persons who have
el.tul1y u.ed the, ab8e~t.e process to atrenqhtben ~Black
9al'repre.entation and power.

336
In 1984, in Perry county which 1s one of the tive douri~f

with a strong' Black political presenc., Jetfer80n
U. S. Attorney prosecuted three black civil rights
have been active in promoting voter participation. Most
chargs. involved alleged violations of the absenta.
process based on effort. to assist illiterate; elderly voter.~
The prosecution of these activists was dlsturbin~j
several reasons. First, Mr. Sessions engaged in 881,,;0:

prosecution. He failed to investigate allegations
fraud in the same election despite the fact that
and the witnesses before the grand jury expressly
attention serious incidents of election fraud in Perry
Indeed, the number of ab••nt•• ballots of Whit. voters
sot in the last Perry County eleotion indicating that White.'~e
advised of the pending investigation.

seoond, the prosecution's treatment of its witnesses in"'"
case, many of whom were trail, elderly voters, warrants "'9r~'
consideration. The witnesses were interviewed by FBI ag.nts~
way calculated to intimidate them, and to pressure them ,-,,'1

saying what the government wanted to hear. Mr.
acknowledges direct involvement in supervising the tBI agenti
were .ent out to ask voters who they voted tor.
The manner in which the 'wi tnenes were callaet
grand jury aleo served to intimidate the witnesses, and
deterred them and other elderly blacks from voting
Although the trial was ultimately held in Selma, which
to Perry County, the government convenect the grand
Mobile, several hours away. The witnesses were taken by,bu
Mobile. While boarding the bus in Salma, the witnesses
surround,ed by police with quns, and the bUB was escorte
Mobile with an armed police .scort. The bus trip proved.h.
for many of the elderly, infirm witne..... One witne•• • utt
a stroke upon return from the grand jury and another
heart attack.
Other aspecta ot the Perry county trial ,indi'cote ,-tbll,,?,J1
pro••cution was ill-odvised and evidenced a "lack of domp.t.n~
337
otebe prosecutors, Although the prosecution obtained

counts tor each defendant in the incUotments, the
prosecution never aotually presented any evidenee to support II
of these counts. The trial jUdge summarily dismissed. a
ot these counts at the clo.e of the pro~ecuticnl8 Cllse.
I believe that the indictment and theories of
were so broad as to include virtually anyone who
absente. voting process.
Kr. sessions' us. of the power ot his office for such
is deeply troubl1nq to me. His unwarranted
,'toUons ,have effectively deterred. the participation of Blacks in
the ,e18ctoral process in thb Distriot. His tactics in no way
- represent a willingness to preserve the rights of individuals,
which is the role of a tederal judge. Instead, his oonduct is
of· actions taken by Whites during the Poat
~Qonstruction period. During that time, the right to vote or
lacks which had heen recently estahlished was erfectively denied
o countless Black voters through accusations cf fraud by Blaok
oters, r.eplacement of Black elected officials wit,h White
'c,C
,c)'lUcids by appointment, and a hostile or indifferent attitude
"'~' 'the -gcvernment.
Hr. sessions I appointment to the federal bench would have a
effect on the people or my Senatorial District. I
you to deny hi. confirmation.
338
~1D.rch 16, 19'86
S,mHtbr Strom Thurmond, Chairman

Cr)1I\mitcae on the Judiciary
ULlited States Senate
WI1~ldngto11,D.C.
AS,elacted and app~inted officinls ill Groallc COllnty, Al"'bul"a,
we oppose the nOlninationof U.S. AtlOt'l\CY Jeff"nl<Jn B. Sall:>ioos to
become So Federal District Judse becau:;e:of the fo)J,o...;tng:
I. His unju9t prosecution of the "Perry COlmt:y '1'hn!t!" for

voter fraud.
2. His racist attitude and COmments dir(!cted toward black reopl~

snd oq;!1nilwtlons.
3. IUs !1cnural lllck of jcH1e,:,mollt, lMturlty and wisdom neccs">'1Lry to

be a Federal Juu&e.
. A1?Q.l~~·'S~S~_ _
-;'1':'<~:'-;;~"">L__~..c~,:-s;,,th,,,,,==.l.f2..1'.L:<,L'L-"""~_w.~1 ~J' '1
Y#r!:hP-'-~~-=::-,~~~~~' !!.j'~~o/1" &<f/~

'".'
339
March 17,1986
Senator Strom Thurmond, Chai (man

SENATE JODI ClARY co~rnITTEE
224 Dirksen Senate Office Building
W"shington, D. C. 20510
Dear Sc:nator Thurmond:
We, the undersigned members of the Alabama
r,e-g1s1ature, strongly protest the appointment of Jefferson
BOR.UIo.!!gdrd cessions, III to the position of [Jnited states
District Judge for the Southern District of Alabama, As you
kllO~l, the appointment of a federal judge is for life and
therefore Iequi res integIi ty, competence and ra! rness. Mr.
Scss~ons cloes not meet those requirelnents.
A per,<wn should not be considered for a federal

judge who would ffiflke anything clQ.~e to jUl:\t one of the
fallowing statements:
"I used to think the Klan was alright until I found
alit they smoked pot".
"Jim Blackshear, a white attorney, is a traitor to
his race for bringing civil rights cases on behalf
of black persons".
"The NAACP, National Council of Churches and the
A. C. L. 0. are Communist, pinko, unamerican
organiz ationsl!.
"The Voting Rights Act is an intrusive piece of
legislation and black and white people could work
out any problema without having civil rights forced
do~m thei r throats".
" We understand that Mr. Session said not one but all
,the above statements. The Senate Judiciary Committee must
;~not place a pox on Alabama and America by reporting such a
nominee to the O. S. Senate.
Your cooperation is appreciated.
RespectfUlly submitted,
340
Mr. SANDERS. One other preliminary matter that I would like to
speak to before I go further--
Senator DENTON. Excuse me, would you identify that last one?
Did you say that it is from 17 Alabama legislators who are all
black?
Mr. SANDERS. Yes.
Senator DENTON. You mean in the State government?
Mr. SANDERS. State legislators.
Senator DENTON. O K . ,
Mr. SANDERS. Yesterday, Judge McRae said that one of my state-
ments, I believe he characterized it as an outright lie. And I was
concerned about that, and I wanted to set the record straight on
that. And I believe the question was in response from a committe
member concerning things that were not true that were in m
statement.
And Judge McRae indicated that my statement indicated th
there was no county that had a black minority that had a blac
elected official. And I want to specifically put that portion of m
statement in the record. "
And I said-just to read it briefly, it is on page 3-to fully unM
stand the impact of the voting fraud investigations in my area, it
important to look at the political landscape. The Black Belt is co
posed of 12 counties ranging from 42 to 78.2 percent. Eight of t
counties have a bla.ck majority.
Although the Voting Rights Act was enacted in 1965, elec
processes for blacks have been slow and difficult. Black offici
still do not come close to representing these areas proportionate
Of the 193 officials in the black belt, only 76 of them are bl~
Even this number if misleading, since few of the elected black 0,
cials hold higher office. ,
For example, only 1 of the 12 probate judges is black, and onl
of the 12 district judges are black. There are no black count
elected officials in any county that does not have a black major
And I wanted to put that in there because I was specificall
that statement, referring to those 12 counties in the black belt,
I stand by that statement as being a correct statement of \vh
situation is there.
Now, there is-the question of the significance of the)
number of a.bsentee ballots in Perry County-- .. ;
Senator DENTON. Excuse me, sir. On the point that you rais
emphatically about no elected black official where there is n
black majority, that question came up yesterday; I presume
know that, or you would not have been so emphatic in saying:
you persist in that statement. .
I refer to Judge King and Kennedy in Mobile? "
Mr. SANDERS. Senator Heflin-I mean, Senator Denton,.wh
did, in that statement, I said that we had to talk about the pol
landscape in our area. And I specifically referred to 12 count!
specifically talked about all of the elected officials in that a.te~'.:
Senator DENTON. Well, you are only referring to those 12.cQ
ties; attacking that situation? :
Mr. SANDERS. Yes. And I think the statement clearly indie
that that was the only--
841
\;(C Senator DENTON. I did not mean to imply that it was. I simply
'd not catch that.
Mr. SANDERS. OK. I am sorr~, Sen!ltor Denton, yesterday when
id that that Was an outrIght lie. I thought that that was a
'er strong statement under the circumstance.
enator DENTON. It was not noticed that you said only 12 coun-
. You know, they are making up representative government in
ny parts of Alabama in which that situation is being corrected.
ery briefly, the issue of the number of absentee ballots as trig·
ng the investig;ation has been raised on a number of occasions.
" I think it is Important that we understand a little bit about
rrY County, because that is critical.
erry County is a county that is roughly 60 percent black, and
illy, 40 percent white. It is a county where the elections are
traditionally very, very close; and elections are intensely
ght. In fact, I think that if you will check the records, you will
d that Perry County has the highest voter turnout in the State
Alabama. And that is due to the intenseness with which the
etions are pursued. Ii
d as a part of that-- 'i
:nator DENTON. That represents the hottest absentee ballot
out in the State. .!
r. SANDERS. Yes. I believe it may be the highest. Green may
e a little bit higher, I am not sure.
ut in any event, very briefly, because of that over the years abo
e ballots have been a critical part of that election. In fact,
the years, basically, initially whites were the only ones who
d' the absentee ballot to any extent. But then blacks began to
use absentee ballots. And this came about specifically because
question was raised some years ago with the Justice Depart.
. . And the Justice Department said that there is nothing-we
ot say that that is illegal. And if you intend to win any elec-
then you need to learn thlJt process also.
it was the U.S. Justice Department, a member of that, who
ted that particular process.
'Il black then began to use the absentee process also. And the
that there were a large number is no indication that anything
,Wrong by virtue of that. There are many sick people. There are
y elderly people. And there is some information to indicate
hearly a third of those people who work in the county work
f the county. I mean, people who work and live in the county,
lout of the county, because it is a very poor county.
I suppose in most other counties, if one made an attempt to
,sentee ballots, then you would also have a large number.
.I wanted to touch upon that very briefly, because that is an
ation for the large number of absentee ballots.
ator DENTON. Again, sir, you may correct me, I am just trying
his cleared up.
imony yesterday said there Were a lot of young men standing
d who had submitted absentee ballots, and all the Justice De-
. ent officials and every politically experienced person I have
with thinks that roughly one·sixth of absentee ballots, as
ared to one in a thousand in Jefferson County, is abnormal,
342
and not to be normalized in the manner in
doing here.
I may be wrong. If you want.to e>;plain that?
Mr. SANDERS. Well, I would lie glad to respond to tha~.,
is abnormal-and that is abnormal; we are not talki
whether it is normal or not-whether that is an indica
something illegal is taking place. And that is no indic~
something illegal is taking place. . '.' .
In fact, with the U.S. Government tagging all of these
ballots and going through them one after one, there is
that report that I am familiar with that indicated that pe
voting illegally who were not entitled to. And thl\t was' 0'
and-some absentee ballots. .,
So I simply state that there is a legitimate reasonfot
number. And that is because it is a very competitive ra?
because it is a rural area; and that is because, also, that·,~
many sick and infirm people, and some who work olit
county. ,'j'
Let me, for fear I run out of time, let me rush on to i/'
thing about Perry County, and that is, that Perry Coli .
county ever since 1972, I do not know of a single ye(1r til
has not been a squabble after the election, since 1972. An
because the races are generally-the critical races are 6ft~
and the competition between the parties is very intense. ' ..
Did you want to ask me something, Senator? .
Senator DENTON. No, sir.
Mr. SANDERS. OK.
And that is the background from which we start. ,
Now, there are two groups in Perry County, two m(1jotj
one is the group that has been in power over the yearS;"
one is a group that has recently come to power in Perr
One of those groups is predominantly black; another"O
dominantly white. Because of the closeness of the electio
of hundred votes shifted either way can mean victory',
And that is the background with which we start. o))j
It just so happens that Roy Johnson, who is the distti~
there, is an intricate part of one of those groups; and sO .
,lips. They both involved with one of those groups.' j
It is that background with which we were dealing wit
County case. , . ' .,"
Now I want to talk briefly about what the impact has
why that impact has been the case,
No.1, there are four areas that I can see where there
major impact. One of them is on voter registration. I!lit
lady, when a lady named Siola Miller, who was trying to'
register, approached her, and said to her that she ought,.t
to vote, and what she said to her was, child, I do notw
you in trouble. And she asked her about that. And she w
ing that she may end up going to jail for simply trying
her. And that is one indication.
Another problem has to do with people who vote at
was at a church over in Marion several months agow
lady came up to me and said, Reverend, is it all right
time? And I said, of course, it is all right to vote ne>;t tittle
343
'se, she said something else, and I asked her whr she thought
dshe said that a number of people said that. It was getting
,us to vote, and she was concerned about it, and so she
'to ask me.
, e fact that she called me reverend was not unusually, be-
ood number of people think I look like a minister and act
nister and call me reverend. But she was talking to me.
HEFLIN. Are you a reverend?
NDERS. No, sir. I prayed about it, Judge. But I did not
there.
r impact is on absentee voters. Now several absentee
stifled during trial that they would not vote again. And I
at that is understandable. Simply from the point of view
have to ask yourself is it worth voting if you may be vis-
eFBI? And I think that that is critical.
"this instance, a number of people, several hundred
ere visited by the FBI and interrogated, in homes and on
··at one point or another.
st category is one of community organizer; and it is most
,Because the community organizers are the key group that
ntee ballots. Few people simply vote absentee ballots on
, . It is because somebody knows that they are sick. Some-
ows that they are out of county; and encourages them to
ntee. It is not a process that somebody says, well, I am
be out of town. Many people will simply forgo voting if
dOeS not encourage them to vote either at the polls or by
is group is the group that has been most affected. That
een most affected because the people who were indicted
unity organizers, and communitr workers, Albert
elyn Turner, and Spencer Hogue. ThIS case went beyond
. ty, because the publicity was so great.
se are the people who have the great reluctance about
.i assist people in voting. There are a few factors why that
them is because the whole matter was so widely publi-

',I' one is, the way the investigation took place in a
t4ings. No.1" there was preelection surveillance, which
",',,'jinusual.
'}lhe of the meetings that people were having the night
~i'ewas,an FBI agent out there watching them with some
,devices for listening to them. It just so happened that
'bame up and saw them out there.
hcerns people that cannot even have a meeting without
~r surveillance.
ond thing, and I think perhaps the most devastating
the tagging of absentee ballots. In Alabama your ballot
:ecause your flrst ballot is in an-I mean, the ballot has
'ga on it except those which you put on it. It is in an en-
t, has no markings on it. The outside ballot does have,
• ign it and put various information.
were able to tag each of those absentee ballots, so the
da number, the inside envelope had a number and the
344
outside envelope had a number, it became verY,very critic
Cause the FBI then went to a number of people and spokeW
people about who they had voted for.
Now, in a city that might not make much differenced!
rural area, where many of those people only voted becau
were assured that nobody would know how they were votin
becomes very criticai.
In a rural area-in a city, you may not see the powerful.,
ever. But in a rural area you see them almost every time yo
town, or they live down the road from you. .
So it becomes very critical that those ballots were tag
that the FBI took those ballots and said; is this how,
voting? '
Many people are afraid to vote, still, even after all thes
Many of them are on welfare. Many of them are on food'
Many are on other kinds of way, and it is just a seri6uS""
Another problem that had to do with it was the extenh!
vestigation. Now, I believe Mr. Sessions testified that th
took the 75 ballots that had markings on it, and those'
ones they investigated. But there were some ballots, ofd6
were investigated that were not among those 75. And if
rect, I believe that I raised this question with Mr. E.T. Ro
he told me that in addition to those ballots, they took li
ballots, at random sample. And I asked him about
random sample. And he said, well, there wasn't any probl
white community. The problem was in the black communi
And they took those-I believe he told me it was 75
random sample; and went to each of those people to talk
And these were ballots that had no markings on them
In addition to the extent of the investigation, the tti
had a very powerful impact upon people. And I think,'
trips-I mean, the grand jury one time met in Selma.
where some of the people who were targeted, who wete'
could get around, were able to go to Selma, which is
miles away. "
But on the other hand, when the elderly people and'"
people were taken, they were taken to Mobile overnight,
168 miles away. And at the particular time they were tli
were taken on a bus; they were indicated that they mus,
bus; and they got on the bus and got there and fO\l"
number of law enforcement officers were standing around
And I think the irony of this is that the bus was par
at the point where Jimmy Lee Jackson got shot. And Ji
Jackson was a young black man in 1965 who had been.i '
a demonstration trying to get the right to vote. And in ,t
what he did, after the march did not take place, a nUlll
troopers had ended up beating people at random. His
grandfather had been hit on the head. And he went.i
take him to the doctor. And the State trooper said ,
take him. They stood in the door and stopped him..;'
And the reason this is important, and I tell that, is b
year they hold a Jimmy Lee Jackson celebration in M'
they talk about this and raise this issue. ",' ,
345
tit in any event, what happened on that occasion was, Jimmy
"ll'ackson, when he was told a second time that he could not
-'his grandfather to the doctor, two of the law enforcement ofIi-
egan to beat him. He was down on the floor. And as they
im; his mother came up. And one of them turned around and
er and knocked her off and she was trying to pull them off.
n, after they beat him awhile on a floor, they stood him up in
rner, and one of them put a gun in his side and shot him one
And they were holding him there. And then they shot him a
time.
lltorDENTON. What incident is this, in what connection?
ANDERS. It is in connection with Perry County.
tor DENTON. I understand that. But you have been making
e that the whole situation was one in which the Govern-
has been heavyhanded, and unjustified in coming in there.
"'here are we getting this man shot in the side?
SANDERS. Well, the point I was making was that the bus that
e people to Mobile, with the law enforcement officers stand-
Qund, was in close proximity to the spot that Jimmy Lee
n was shot in 1965 in an attempt--
tor DENTON. I really do not think that is relevant. You have
, king for almost 15 minutes. I do not mean to be-'--
ANDERS. I will be glad to leave it off. But, for people who
, at every year, and have a meeting on that, that was of
" ificance. But I will be glad to leave it alone and go to the
int and close out, if I have your permission?
orDENToN. Sure.
ANDERS. I just simply want to close out with two small
f them is, election workers, people who go out and solicit
ballots, are also concerned because the nature of the in-
fit that came down in this case; in that indictment it
-some of things that it laid out there is that these people
roach citizens of Perry County and encourage them to vote
, ballots. It did assist citizens to execute and submit absen·
ts. Did visit voters in their home.
th~se are normal activities that were set out in that indict-
part of the conspiracy in this particular case. So election
people who go out, look at that indictment, and it was
'to a number of people, and have some serious concern.
t thing, of course, is the number of counts in the indict·
was spread across the newspaprs. It was spread across tel·
. Everything. That there were 82 counts. And at the
~; when they finally went to the jury, there was far less
iSome 50 counts were no longer there. But of course that
pl'ead across the newspapers.
that had a very profound impact, and I simply say that
it has a tremendous effect. I go to meetings almost every
"1 know it had a tremendous impact.
r DENTON. Are you finished?
DERS. I am through.
DENTON. Well, you referred to things being spread in the
. Mr. J.L. Chestnut, Jr., writing in the Selma Times
liS'he a law partner of yours?
346
Mr. SANDERS. Yes, he is.
Senator DENTON. Was he one of the defense attorneys in
Perry County case?
Mr. SANDERS. Yes, he was.
Senator DENTON. Septem!)er 22, 1985, under a headline,U
Tomism to be dealt with, by J.L. Chestnut, Jr. His articleb .
certain blacks can be so sickening they make it difficult to Co
oneself. Perry County Commissioner Reese Billingslea and Ta
sessor Warren Kynard continue to spout the nonsense that the·
sided, racist Federal vote fraud investigation and prosecuti
Perry County were justified and somehow fair. Neithe.r the,
Billingslea, nor Kynard had voiced a single criticism of white
ical skulquggery in Perry County. .,.,'
Do you believe that was said here, that the Reagan admin
tion-Senator Jeremiah Denton, responding to whites su.
Cook, tried desperately to persuade the Justice Departme
reject the Perry County redistricting plan.
I can bring. a lawsuit against Mr. Chestnut in that paper for
Byeause there is a pattern-I intend to, OK? There is a patte
/fuat newspaper and by Mr. Chestnut to make allegations
me from malice which are absolutely untrue.
Do you believe that Jeremiah. Denton had something to q
thing to do, with persuading the Justice Department to. rElj
Perry County redistricting plan? I do not know anything ap.o.
Perry County redistricting plan. I did not know about tp.e.·
County case until I read about it in the newspaper? '.,
Do you actually believe o t h e r w i s e ? " , . /'
Mr. SANDERS. Senator Denton, let me say first that I certai'
not want to be sued, either. And I do not know whether you
role or not. And I have never said that you had a role. But:!
know whether you had a role or n o t . , . , ..
Senator DENTON. You are under immunit~. Nothing youe
can be held against you in the sense' of. a. SUIt. .';'
Mr. SANDERS. Well, I do not know whether you had arolll
Senator Denton. I do not know. And in fact, I have nllV
that statement.
Senator DENTON.. Well, can you answer why I would be
ed in intimidating black voters against voting for me,w.V
the polls show that more blacks would support me that an
lican.in history, I would not need 40 i'ercent of the. \>Iac,.
get as big a landslide as Senator HefiIn, in fact maybe"n'i
cause my opponent did not have that many. '''.' ,
And why would I want to intimidate black voters frolU,
The testimony was given yesterday that it was the sidefrq
you were coming that was trying to intimidate voters.. A
Justice Department which has testified here have said}
thing. .' ...•.•.. ,
So if you think you are going to .turn. as someone in the,
said, not representative of that 40 percent, that you are,
turn the votes around, I think you are wrong. . .'c:
I think that as Mr. LaVon Phillips testified yesterday,;t
more and more blacks becoming sick and tired of being i
into voting one way or the other. And I do not ",ant t.o !)ll'c
the Senate or to any other office with intimidated votes
347
.", place where I 78 was in prison 7 years; 7 months; not the
t~d States of America.
Can understand vote cheating and vote fraud. That has taken
idn various parts of the United States. It still is, to some
ee, and I am hoping we will get rid of it. But intimidation is
er thing. And I do not like it. And I want that on the record.
ator DENTON. I would ask, did you teIl Albert Turner that
td his trial'-'Ietme rephrase the qllestion. ,.
it true that Albert Tllrner was your campaign manager whim
,'an for the office you now hold?
r'. SANDERS. Albert Turner was a person who worked very
)Y, with me, and in Perry County, he certainly served in that
nator DENTON. So do you believe you can be impartial as far as '
'dsa is concerned?
. SANDERS. Senator Denton, I never felt that I should be im·
,- as far as Mr. Turner's case is concerned. And the reason for
,/IS that I had known Mr. Turner over the years. And I had
wn him to be a very dedicated and hard·working person who
~ved very firmly in the right to vote. And that he worked very
,to see that all kinds of people would be able to vote. I did Mt
hat I needed to be impartial.
as representing him, and I do not think you need to be impar·
,hen you are representing somebody. "
ator DENTON. The immunity I told you about a little while "l,
as you know better than I since I am not a lawyer, is only
respect to-suing for slander; that sort of thing; This question
"iil'that category.
'Ydu -ever warn Albert Turner that if he did not watch his
log
, of absentee ballots, he was going to get into serious trou-
!SANDERS. No, what we did--
otDENTON. Excuse me; the answer was no?
NDERS. Did I ever warn him?
Qr D.iNTON. Did you .ever warn Albert Turner that if he did
ch his handling of absentee ballots, he was going to get into
trouble?
.ANDERS. No; what I did-I would be glad to tell you, Sena·
at) did.
"people in Perry County, I have met with them to discuss
hem the legalities and illegalities of handling absentee bal-
d we went over that in detail.
,in going over that in detail, I encouraged them to avoid
y appearances of impropriety; and I believe they did that.
tor DENTON. Let me ask you if you ever-you have alleged
,'prepared statement that Mr. Sessions failed to investigate
. ns of white voter fraud in the 1984 elections.
•';u -name specific instances of such offenses which Mr. Ses·
d to prosecute?
NDERS. Yes, sir; in fact, Mr. Turner, whenever he testified,
day, raised a series of those. And one of those, of course,
Mayor Andrew Hayden.
7 0 - 87 - 12
348
Senator DENTON. No; Mr. Kimbrough testified yesterdll,y,
advised Mr, Sessions not to take on this voter·fraud case, .
County beclluse he would simply get himself in trouble, "
Mr. Kimbrough did not have llny doubt that he express
llgreement with the Justice Department, that it should b,e,
ed, but only that he would be smellred and get into tro
did not. ' "
Also, Mr, Sessions has been cited as having a remark
caselolld, which he put unusually, extraordinllry heavy ,
the fllCt that he did come out there and investigate on'
have turned yoU against him. You are rather selective
ones you want him to investigate. ", :;-.
You criticized the fact that the grand jury in the Per
investigation first convened in Mobile rather than in Sel
lawyer, are you aware that at that time no grand .iury'
been convened outside Mobile in that Federal district? ' ,
Mr. SANDERS, No; but I am also aware that the grand
meet in Selma, and did take testimony. And they took that
ny from young, capable people who were able to go back-
On this very case.
Senator DENTON. Did J.L, Chestnut ever warn Albe
that if he did not watch ,his handling of absentee ball\!
going to get into serious t r o u b l e ? " ,
, Mr. SANDERS. I am not familiar with that at all, Senatg ,
Senator DENTON. Well, for your information, I do hav,'
affidavit froin E.T. Rolison, Jr., assistant U.S. attorney,
that he did. ","
Mr. SANDERS. The idea-I did not do anything s\lch. :.)
Senator DENTON. Here is what the affidavit says,in',ll
to the trial of Albert Turner, Jr., I hlld II conversatio!'!!"
Sanders, Jr., about Albert Turner, Jr., and the 1982,elec
Hank Sanders, Jr., that I had received information that.'
nut had publicly warned Albert Turner that if he did
handlinl! of the absentee ballots, he was going to g~t,;
trouble. , ,:+
Hank Sanders told me that I had received inaccura
tion in that it was not J.L. Chestnut that had given"
Jr., the warning, but it was he who had given the w
is signed E,T. Rolison, Jr, , "".,,,
Mr. SANDERS. No-yes, I have a comment. I have ney
that I gave Albert Turner a warning, that if he ciid"il
going to get into serious trouble. ",
Senator DENTON. Do you know Jeff Sessions person
Mr. SANDERS. I have met him a number of times.
Senator DENTON. Were you present when Mr. La
testified yesterday, a man who knew Mr. Sessionsperso
Mr. SANDERS. Yes; I was present when he testified:;'
Senator DENTON. What did you think about his test
Mr. SANDERS. I thought that Mr. Thompson'skno
Sessions was very limited; that he worked with him
tion dealing with one project, as I understoed it;, I'·,
someone who had been m his office, who had seen "
dllY basis, who hlld had a range of interllction. WOUI
greater appreciation for what his problems were, ,. '0
349
8ths were, and what his abilities were than someone who had
with him in a very limited situation.
, I could understand Mr. Thompson doing that.
'ator DENTON. Well he did work in the same line of work with
e knew him over a period of a number of years. As a black
1, suppose he would have had some sensitivity about the task
rights.
you, being of an opposite party, and involved in many arti·
re of an extremely political nature, I will not try to charac·
ithany adjectives what I think of that kind of politics, but
§IlY that his objectivity would certainly stand closer scruti·
the likelihood of yours.
tor Heflin.
lor HEFLIN. I would like to have the affidavit made a part of
rd.
tor DENTON. Without objection, it shall be in. It was an
91) on my part.
e following was received for the record:]
350
STATE OF ALABAMA,
COUNTY OF MOBILE,
Before me, the unders1gned authority, personallycap~«a
E. T. Rolison, Jr' r Assistant United 'States. At:tQ~~Y,.~':SQ,~~~,

District of Alabama, and upon being duly awo.ro, deposes and$,
as follows:
That prior to the trial of Albert 'turner, Jr .. ,
conversation with Rank Sanders I Jr •• about Albert
and the 1982 election. I told Hank Sanders, Jr••
,
received information that J. L. Chestnut had publicly warn~~
Albert Turner that if he did not watch his handling of the

absentee-ballots, he was going to get into serious troubl~.
Hank Sanders told me that I had received inaccurate inform

in that. it was not J.L. Chestnut that.had given Albert T
the warning but it was he Who' ·had given the warning.
ASSISTANT UNITED STATES AT'!!
Sworn to and sUbscrib,ed before me

this 10th day of March, 1986 •
.~£.~
otarY\ibIlo
State of Alabama at Large
~v COMMiSsioN EXPInES 1\12168
351
PAGE,01
T. Rolison, Jr.. I have been with the

~~ttorneyts OffiQQ in the Southern Dist~1Qt of Alabama
t un4erstand that Thomas Figures hae today
"i'!~,b:efore the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing that
'~eas-ion had referred-to him in a derogatory manner &s
That statement is a flat out lie and I have never
to him by anything other than his given name.
o,,,•.p.d ,subscribed before me

th day of March, 1986.
352
MAR 20 '86 15:22
STATE OF ALAllAMA,
COUNTY OF MOBILE,
My name is Ginny,S. Granade. t have bEien an
United Statae Attorney since 1977 in the Southern

of Alabama. It:t.a 1Il.y understanding that
hearing Mr. Thamaa Figures stated that
presence, Mr. Sessions referred to Mr. Figures as '~oy".
I have never heard Mr. Sessions refer. to Mr. Figures &s

or eo call him by anything other than his given name •
. ~HQ~ to and subscribed before me

.,''''$ts 20th day of Match, 19S6.
k~',? ~-('~"
'" '~%'7.J'
·t~ a
\. ,~.at4te
. c 4 ........
of Alabama at Large
",.::'$ "M¥'~MISSIQN EX/IRiS 1112188
;
353
~torDENTON. You do have questions, do you not, Senator?
tor HE,FLIN. Yes; I was just reading.
tor DENTON. Yes, sir..
tor HEFLIN. This-maybe it would save time just to read it
~ain.
lZolison said that: "prior to the trial of Albert Turner, Jr., I
conversation with Hank Sanders, Jr., about Albert Turner,
1 the 1982 election. I told Hank Sanders, Jr., that I had re-
,information that J.L. Chestnut had publicly warned Albert
r that if he did not watch his handling of the absentee bal-
ewas going to get into serious trouble. Hank Sanders told
at I had received inaccurate information in that it was not
estnut that had given Albert Turner, Jr., the warning but it
who had given the warning."
utecall having that conversation with Mr. E.T. Rolison?
SANDERS. No; in fact, there are several things. Albert
i Jr., is the son of the Albert Turner who was involved in
,.' But I assume that they are talking about Albert Turner.
ond thing, I am not a junior; I am not a junior at all.
did not have-I never told Mr. Rolison that I warned
'1'urner, or that Chest did not warn-J.L. Chestnut--
Iir HEFLIN. Do you recall any conversation with Mr. Rolison
he 1982 elections in which there was some discussion of ab-
balloting, and Albert Turner, who was a defendant in the
l'li)ERS. Yes; on one occasion I did. In fact what I told Mr.
B.I)}hat occasion was that I knew that nothing had been
'ng, because I was the person who had met wtih them
82. And I said, "Let us sit down. Bring your workers in;"
'went over in the Marion courthouse-I mean in the Perry
courthouse in Marion and held a session on what can be
What cannot be done in that situation.
old him that that was why I knew that they had not done
,wong in that case. '
hat is the only conversation I have had with him about
'HEFLIN. That is all.
D1<N'TON'. SenatOr East.
'EAST. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
DENTON. I have no further questions, Senator Sanders.
just a moment, please.
Id ask that yOU please remain available for further ques-
;C. Dobynes.
~··DOBYNES. Mr. Chairman, Senator Heflin, members, I
bynes. 1 am being duly sworn and disposed to say the
wever, dUe to some errors, I would like for you to go
ragraph 5-1 am sorry, paragraph 6:
iyed in Maryland for the departure site early in Octo-
us surrounded by about six Alabama State troopers,
ypolicemen, about nine FBI agents, and game war-
'ed like an, armed Camp. The streets around the court-
':about eight· officers stood on different corners, some
,ns ready to be drawn.
354
It should have been really far drawn-not drawn--
Senator PENTON. Excuse me, sir. Where are you? I could'Il
B~~~ "
Reve~end POBYNES. Paragraph 6. .
Senator PENTON. OK. On page 2? ," ,7.
If we have the same copy. Yeah, that is paragraph 7 on 9. '
Reverend POBYNES. Well-- '
Senator PENTON. It is OK. I just want to get--
Reverend POBYNES [continuing]. All right. I want thiss
ened out. "
Senator PENTON. Where are you there, sir, then exactly
have not found it? .,:
I have-their guns drawn, I have that.
Reverend POBYNES. Ready to be drawn. .'
Senator PENTON. All right. Should be ready to be dra»'t'.
Reverend POBYNES. Yes.
Senator PENTON. With their guns ready to be drawn,. ,
Reverend POBYNES. One more error that I should find,,'
lose a sheet some where? , ' ,
Senator PENTON. While you are looking, Reverend P~
you do not mind, since the television cameras have rolled
tents and gone away, having heard from Mr. Figure~, ;b:
Heflin, as he faithfully has, is still here: and has been. k
tion that we do have-we have just received affidavits of
with the notary public, have made sworn statements, .
refer to the charge by Mr. Figures that he was referred'tp"
We will have to wait for the final copy of the affida,
ahead, Reverend PObynes. . .'. '~"
Reverend POBYNEs.The latter part of paragraph 6'""
poli~e cars escorted a bus nearly 20 minutes out of the'!<i~
Marlon. 'h'
Senator PENTON. Out of the city l i m i t s ? · .,.
Reverend POBYNES. Out of the city limit of Mario,,;
Marion to Mobile.
Mr. Chairman.
Senator "DENTON. Yes, sir. . ,H ".t
Reverend POBYNES. Can I go on with my statement?},
Senator PENTON. Sure. .
Reverend POBYNES. I am a resident of Perry County,'
Can I submit my affidavits?
Senator PENTON. Is that what you just--
Reverend POBYNES. No, no, no: with the correction t
asked for, can I submit this as a part of the record.?' ,il
Senator PENTON. Since -there is a delay, I will read,
final form from Piana Waterman, general counsel, .Se'
ary Committee, who processed this affidavit from GiIi
ade. Which says: ," •
"My. name is Ginny S. Granade'- I have been an Assistant tJ,'.S,l:'l
1977 mthe Southern Distric~ of Alabama. It is my,1,1nderstandiiig ft
confirmation hearing Mr, Thomas Figures stated t1m1on one"occasi
ence, Mr. Sessions referred to Mr. Figures as "boy/' _ _ _',)
I have never heard Mr. Sessions refer to Mr. Figu~ /jboy',o
anything other than his given n a m e , ' -,
Signed by Ginny S. Granade.
355
d I hope that some of the staffers will notify Senator Kennedy
other affidavit is from 'Mr. E.T. Rolison, Jr.
me is E.T. Rolison, Jr, I have been with the U.S. Attorney's office in the
District of Alabama- since 1975. I understand that Thomas Figures has
. led before the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing that I, on occasion,
to him in a derogatory manner as a I1boy."
tement is a flat-out lie, and I never referred to him by anything other
given name,. Signed, E.T. Rolison, Jr.
"ave received the telefax, notarized versions of those state-
'wliich are being reproduced now.
, orry to have interrupted you, Reverend Dobynes. But it is
Senator Kennedy and the television cameras left. I do not
'y 'doubt about how that will be covered in the newspa-
, r rather, on television tomorrow-but for what it is worth, I
tely offer it at this point.
ead, Reverend.
r HEFLIN. Well, now, I may be too judicial and technical in
lInce. And since there is going to be time involved in this,
ve a telefax, but an affidavit out to have a signature of the
ftlxed to it.
,DENTON. We have them.
r HEFLIN. It may well be. I have not seen that, and it may
fy the technical requirements. But I think that, due to the
,you will have time for a record being prepared and other
hat a proper affidavit ought to be submitted to verify any
liing, and it ought to appear in some manner by whicli it
roperly verified to meet the technical requirements for
.,to the committee.
sure that there is time later for that to be done.
DENTON. Yes, sir; I made that announcement at the risk
would not be done. It is done now. But I thought the
qf it was important.
f'it are being distributed now, with signatures, and a
'lic seal, and signature.
,pes should be given a copy.
ry, Reverend Dobynes, but that is an important item. We
eople that leave, and have to leave. And this man is
"that is, Mr. Sessions-in the media, because the Sena-
come here, except for some. And they are not going to
'ey have no idea of what is going on here except what
rity leader asks me about that every day. So we are at
"'of what is printed. And I am not terriby disappointed
rday.
,.finished making your technical corrections, Reverend
OByNES. So I did while you were talking and I asked
e proper corrections, they would enter it into the
Senator Heflin said they would.
NTON. AI! right, it will be entered without objection.
follows:]
356
'I'•• ti!l0ny of
aeverend a.c. Dobyns.
otperry County, Alaba~
My ~ame~i. p.e. Dobyn••• 1 appreciate this opportunity to
t •• U.ty before tn. SerlMt. Judieiary Comrnith·. today abc.ut Iny
experienee . . . . witn••• in the pro••cution of Albert and Ev~lyn
Turner and Sp.ne~1'" Hogue by,Jeff' S••• ions.

am • retired school t •• cher and ill pa.tor for ill couple of
I ",aI', 1'0'1" .. lut.t on the Perry County Commi •• ion en
Your name wa. ero••ed out and Mr. W.r~. name had an ·X' by
She .aid she had voted fOr me and ••ked who I had given her'
told her I mailed i t at the U.S. Post Offiee

Marion to the Circuit Clerk's Office and didn't know how the
ballot got changed,
.aid I would only talk in .. court
and the FBI agent .aid he would have me subpoena.d.
When the .ubpoe~~ arrived, an attaened i~.truetion
announeed tnat all tn. wit~•••ed frOM Marion would be
Wnen I .~~ived ~t the M.~ion d.partu~. sit. in .arly i'
Oetob.~1 I .aw a bu. surrounded by .i)l Alabama Stat. Troop."'.,'

357
01"'- four M.. riol'lcfty pc'l ic:ernt'Y1, about ',droe FBI .. ge.... t., "rid
~"ri.d thilt lew .enforClii'f~ent officers, ,surrO~lr,ded tt'lft city whi 15,
bUS8S 'were beir,g lo..dlild wl.tn witl"les.es. It WilS Ol'"l&,of thm
than ~0 armed police officers. Two marked
escorted the bus on its n ...r1y five hour journey to
I kept asking: myself what o!lll the•• police officers were
When we "''''rived il'l Me,btl .. , WI' were t ... ken to
J. howe"'lPr, was not Int",..viewed. The r'!ii'>lt morning
breakfast r was told by District Attorney Johnson and .. man
<t.l"'odueed II. Fed.ral M...rshall Go\l.ry Clem, thilt 1 WIIS I"lot
i.wed or given my e>lpense mone)' the night before ••

i!d bvcause I lola.,..' t in my roc.fJl wher, they camil' by.' The
, nt disturbed tile blltca.uss, Ih~dn't left my roo~, 4'.11 rdgnt.
tn&n4'.sked Me to rid.' over to tn& courtnouse witn them.

tn. c.r Agent Clem informed me that M.ry Pryor
I replied that i t
in the m"i1 the night b.fol"e the electioY,. Wner, I l!Hlid

at wall- impossibl., Ag.nt Clem char,ged the subjitet "y,~ s~id
0h ••rd I w•• eoaening the witneslles on the bUll to Mobile

358
federal .ttorney ••k_d fIlR wnat I knew_bout th. "voting 'fraud,"
and Mary Pryor" abaent •• ballot? Could J Il'Mplain how Mr••
~ryor'. ballot had b••n changed.? Rnd had J had given
t? Albert Turner? Th. long hour., th. difficult travel and th.
I
I,
!
I. ,~
homa accompanied by Lavon Pntl11ps, th. A•• i.tant C.R., and
I
to get Me to chanl:!1' Ill)' t •• timon)'_ I told thIl'In J would not .. lter .,
my grand jury te.timony bee_us. i t lola. th. truth.

I can understand Mr. Bession'. inter•• t in determining if
Paragraph Z: When I arrived in Harlon. for the departure

site early in October 1984, I saw a bus surrounded by
about 6 Alabama State Troopers, Marion' City polic'emen,
about 9. r. B. I. agents ~nd a~out 3 or 4 p:ame wardens. It
looked like an armed camp. The.street on the side o~ the
court house'was filled with an" excessive amo~nt of uni-
formed officers on two cqrners, some with their pun
ready to be drawn, .
Pararraph 6: Uniformed of.ficers escorted the hus
about ,211 miles out of the City of Har~on.
,,\ "-
359
tor DENTON. Did you want to read your statement or are
.ilnging previously sworn testimony? Why did you not change
te it, was presented as sworn testimony to the committee?
rend DOllYNES. This was typed for me and I do not know
olJ1e of it got like this. Maybe my handwriting is not that
pese changes were made.
tor DENTON. Well, it will be entered in the record as in the
t, which you have made, the corrections. I do not know the
icalities, Senator Heflin, with respect to having received testi·
to which was referred yesterday, and then the change made
the gentleman come,s here. But before, as he is actually testi-
'~rhaps,you can clarify that.
jor HEFLIN. Well, I do not claim to know aU of the answers
of this right now, but I assume that any question aboutit,
. ps can be raised as to the sequence of events and the earlier
ent and the corrected statements, and his explanation and
ces drawn therefrom as they are drawn from different docu·
!ind different testimony, and different people interpret them
~r~nt ways.
;'tg(DENTON. Thank you, Senator Heflin, You are a very val-
man to have here.
verend Dobynes, regarding the boarding of grand jury wit·
e~ on the bus, in Marion, AL, were you aware that the FBI had
:ed of threats to prevent the witnesses, some witnesses from
'ng the bus?
tend DOBYNES. I did not quite understand your question.
tor DENTON. Did you know that the FBI had learned of
ts to prevent witnesses from boarding the bus, just as threats
"made against Mr. LaVon Williams and by affidavit, by others,
hers?
:everend DOBYNES. No. I had heard some hearsay talk that I
Id nofbelieve by no means those threats were given by M.
ert Turner, I heard from some outside source talking, But I cer-
li\i believe those threats were untrue and I do not see how they
d have been no way founded because I have never known M.
''tt Turner to give those kinds of threats. ,'
ator DENTON. Well, if you believed as the FBI did, that those
~swere true. would you not expect there to be sOme kind of,
"protection? '
erend DOBYNES. No, I donot know. You asked the questio
Ii think they needed some kind of protection?
ator DENTON. And do you think the protection afforded as
sive? I will ask you that question. Do you think the pro ction
.eli was excessive-~
verend DOBYNES. Certainly. (
nator DENTON [continuing]. In the light of-you will ~a\ie to
assume that the threats were made, because the FBI was per-
dedthey were-and under that assumption, do, you think that
,protection afforded was excessive?
everend DOBYNES. I do think it WllS; more than needed, sir.
ator PENTON, All right, the chief of police has subniitted an
llvit which rellds as follows, Senator Heflin, and Senator East.
am John Anderson, Chief of Police, Marion County, sworn and ,
360
subscribed before Sabrah H. Agee, notal] public, Stakor:'
at-large on the 17th day of March, 1986.' . . . ...
Senator HEFLIN. Is this the same affidavit referred .:
that you read from Anderson-is this a different one? . ,
Senator DENTON. It is the same affidavit. We did n6t ~
in completion.. ... }
Senator HEFLIN. There was some reference made to it?·· (
Senator DENTON. Yes, sir, it is the same one. .
Senator HEFLIN. I think I have got a copy of it.
Senator DENTON. I will read in part:
On October 21, 1984, Special Agent:Leslie Sue:,of the Federal Bur,E!ftM,
tion contacted my office and informed me that he had received infor,mfitl
going to be an attempt to prevent the Federal Grand Jury witnesses fi'
Mobile to testify before the Grand Jury concerning the Perry County:vo
v e s t i e : a t i o n . , , ,'~;'-
Wfien I received this information. it was decided that the, wUce;,.
would provide whatever security was necessary to p'rotect these witne,ss
rassment. I ' '" .
On October 22, 1984, my department supplied two officers, Lt. Don C,
trolman Gabriel Jones as security, while the witnesses were bosrding:{
for Mobile. Also on the scene was conservation officer Mike Nichols,
signed to Perry County at that time and who worked out of the M,dr!"
partment,
Three FBI agents were also present, at the loadiJ:lg site, one .,yas'
tioned special agent, Leslie Sue, and two were agents fromn.1ontg9
know the names of the Montqomery agents. Captain George Jones '0
State Troopers came to Marlon but waited inside the Marion poll
along with three other troopers. The bus loading zone was at a publi '
to the U.S. Post Office, directly aCross the street from the PerryQ:lJt1}
and'after all, the Grand Jury witnesses were loaded on the bus,'tne >
troopers drove over to the loading site and waited for the bus to'Ie'
In othe,r words, they were the escort for the bus on' j
apparently.' ....
The only uniformed law enforcement personnel in the immeWa.teb.
bus, were Lt. Caber, and Officer Jones of the Marion Police DePaJ:1i~~n
That is what this affidavit essentially says. ' ::";:'1'"
And therefore, I question the excessiveness of the.,.s,¥!
vided. . . " i.W
Reverend DOBYNES. Standing by the door of the bus", .
find, I believe, Mr. Jones, but on the corner, across ,tl\~ s
the bus, on the-just across the street from where we.•
tween the Post Office and the Church, there were·~R.:
more than these officers that are in this statement, sir.i,.
Senator DENTON. Were they somehow involved in the .
eration, Or were they passing by? . '"
Reverend DOBYNES. Standing by on the corner. ... 'i
Senator DENTON. Well, I would be glad to receiVe' o/r'
tion specific: about further people t\>at were, there: .A\t'
that.affidaVlt and yourcorrectec! testimony. . .... ,.
We have LaVon Phillips' testimony from yesterday; J .
Senator H e f l i n . . . ,.'
Senator HEFLIN. I do not believe that I have any quee
Senator DENTON. Senator E a s t . ·:..,
Senator EAST. No, I have n o t h i n g . . ' . , r t
Senator DENTON. Reverend Dobynes, you are excu~~i
y o u . · .!
[The witness was excused,] i.e,
361
tor DENTON. The last gentleman on this panel is Deval L.
; assistant counsel, Legal Defense Fund, New York, NY.
,-ATRICK. Thank'you, Mr. Chairman.
name is Deval Patrick and I am assistant counsel at the
P Legal Defense Fund. Together with two of my colleagues, I
ed Spencer Hogue, in what has been referred to over the last
,days of these proceedings as the Perry County case.
'preliminary matter, Mr. Chairman and members of the
e, I would like to formally introduce as a part of the
everal materials which I understand have been circulated
mmittee already.
i the statement and affidavit of Morton Stavis, who is co-
r and president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, and
Illd fiot be here today because of other responsibilities on
-of his new client, President Aquino of the Philippnes, in
rk.
'a ask that those two items be made formally a part of the
this time.
,DENTON. Without objection, they shall be made a part of
d.
m'ant follows:]
362
Statement ot Morton stavis

on behal1' ot
The Center tor Constitutional Riqhts
Hr. chairman and Members ot the Coultt.e1

My name is Morton Stavis. I am a co-founder of anl5
attorney at the Center tor constitutional ~19htll
City.
Throughout several months of pretrial prooe.di~q~:)~l
several weeks of trial, I represented Ma. Evelyn Turne~ .gA

charges of conspiracy, mail fraud and voting-mor.-than-""~rt'6
, '0 ;-'-",
the United stat.. Distriot Court tor the ,Southern Oilitr.io.

Alabama. The United Stat•• Attorney tor the Southern l:ifS'
.i:l~
Jeff B. sessions, III, conducted the prosecution in that ~~~
In connection with the Committee's consideration ot

sessions tor appointment to the tederal
six i.sues to the committee's attention:
I.1l:I..t., the investigation ot the case was
fear and intimidation of the witnesse., most Qf whom were.'
elderly and illiterate f many of whom were ailing f all '0
were ))laok. Nevertheless, the FBI questioned them i,iF""

caloulated to produce the answers they wanted, often revi'
witnesses as many as four or five times until they
answers they wanted. Mr. Se3sions conduct_d
~f during the seleotion of the jury, the pr
used its peremptory challenges against blaok potentb.~,'-'
offering a hollow explanation When challeneged.
also attempted to have the cse tried in Mobile ...... nilla'
miles from the place where the facts ocourred and p '.
inconvenient to all the witnesses .... for the sole dit~
reason that the concentration ot blaoks in the
was oonsiderably 18ss than it was in selma,
venue.
~, just betore-trial, after the oourt announced
jury would be .eque.tered, the proseoution filed an
motion for sequestration which inclUded a
868
on the daten.. attorneys. It was tiled. on the

before trial, rece.t.ving substantial pre.s coverage
tor the 801. aparent purpose of inciting
pretrhl publicity and evading the qag order then in
~, betore the trial began, the proseoution repeatedly

b.tnll:te4 the dUen.. lawyers in our attempts to .xu.in_ the
overmtlent'a evidenoe. Horeover, notwithstanding its obl1gaUon
do 80, the government tailed to pr~uc. betore trial FBI note.
ot-. witn••• that were clearly eXCUlpatory. This was discovered
examination of an FBI Agent during trial.
contrary to the instructions of the tederal
its own representations on the record, the
"i-olacution introduoed evidence 801ely to show that some ballots
y have been iDlprope:r:ly notarized. This was dgn1ticant
'cauae, aa the magistrate acknowl.dg.~, Hr. Se.sion8' ottice has
tol1owe~ up on any complaints that voter aotivist.
orted by white. have improperly notari.ed ab.ent.e ballot••
1J.xtn, in t:he cout'se of trial, one ot my colleaque. was
, arily held in contempt ot court. Atter the detendant. were
itted, I represented my COlleague in appeal ot the oontempt
Hr. Session~' ottioe tiied a'briet in which the argument
e merits consisted ot ten ccnclu80ry .antance.. The brief
o.ritirely unprotessional.
ot the i.sues with· which I am tamiliar a.
,.ult ot that trial, and that cau•• me to question whether Hr.
1~h. has the temperament, jUdgment and tairne.s appropriate
'tederal judge.
I
364
Mr. PATRICK. Second, the statement already submitted an
affidavit of Lani Guinier, who, is a colleague of mine at th
Defense Fund, and was, my cDcounsel in the trial last sum,
the Perry County case. These materials have also been madij
able to the committee.
Senator DENTON. Without objection, it shall be made a,
the record.
[The information follows:]
36.5
ORIGINAL
IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE
In the Matter of the Nomination of

JEFFERSON BEAUREGARD SESSIONS, III
Appointment to the United States District
Court for the Southern District of Alabama
AFFIDAVIT OF MORTON STAVIS
·NEWYORK
ss. :
·OF NEW YORK
STAVIS, being duly sworn, depose and say as
I am co-founder of and an attorney at the Center for

in New York Ci ty, where my practic'e over
involved a wide variety of civil rights
'ristitutional issues. Before joinJnq the Center, I was in
,r\+ ""',
te practice in New Jersey, though nonetheless active and
to my work at the Center. I have
member of the Bar for 50 years.
I defended Evelyn Turner in a trial in June of 1985
Southern District of Alabama. The charges against Mrs.
mail fraud and voting-more-than-once,
out of her and her husb~nd's extensive voter regis-
and absentee voting assistance in Perry County, Ala-
the community in which sh~ lives. The government was
366
represented by JeffB. 'sessions, III, the United States"A;'

ney. Mr. sessions I supervision of the case was extremely
3. Early in the proceedings, the judge imposed a,,::
order on the lawyers for the prosecution and the defense.::::
Appendix B.) The week before trial, the judge announced,"
defense objections, that he intended to sequester the
Several days ~ that ruling, Mr. Sessions' office £1
motion for sequestration (termed a "Response to Object.!
Sequestration and Request for Protective Action") which
eluded a strongly worded personal attack on the integritx!
conduct of defense counsel. (~Appendix c.l That moti(f~
filed on the Friday before trial and received sUbstantial,~
coverage over the weekend. That motion was unneces's'a'

compromised the government I s obligations under 'the cou-rtt'
order. In my opinion, the sole purpose was to inci·te th,
of adverse pretrial publicity that it in fact produc~
4. Mr. Sessions supervised an FBI investigation

terized by fear and intimidation.
poor, black, elderly, illiterate and often ailing ..
interviews of the witnesses indicated that the FBI h
tioned these witnesses in a way calculated to 1?~~
answers the government wanted. None of the agentsh

ience in interViewing eO-yeAr-old black women.
Testimony of Agent Bodman.)
over the telephone to explain changes on a ballot th.ey
c',
c.
UiJ;t~
see (~, ~, Testimony of Murphy Reed and James 'Sa,"

:s;q
367
me were asked to examine their ballots wIthout their glasses

(!!!i~, Testimony ofM899ie Fuller)r some were paid as
~yas four or five visits until they gave toe desired answer
, ~, Testimony of Mattie Perry). It- i's not difficul t to
why some-witnesses (including several
terviewed by Sessions himself) gave testimony on the stand
,~t;appeared to the government to contradict earlier state-
S. Mr. Sessions· office displayed similar disregard for

,~cwitnesses in his manner of bringing them before the Grand
'f.'i.Though the Grand Jury meets in both Selma, which is close
~rerry County', and Mobile, which is distant, Mr" Sessions
'Hed these witnesses to testify when the Grand Jury convened
"'~l1q~ile. The witnesses were taken en masse by bus to Mobile.
bus was surrounded by police in Marion, and had an armed

"ceescort from Marion to Mobile. (!!!Appendix C.) The bus
,under the circumstances, had the predictable effect of
-
resulting. in confusion and unreli-
t,t;!;.st.imony before the grand jury, and contributing, I
reluctance of the witnesses and other elderly
,~.cin their community ever to vote again.
,h,t;t fact that many of the wi tnesses were required to travel
",pile despite poor health effected the willingness of
,s to vote in the future. Mr. Sessions was largely insen-
ye,to the health of the witnesses. Although he stationed
,~e on the bus to Mobile and provided a nurse at trial (even
368
for witnesses who did not need one), Mr. Sessions

efforts to try the case in selma rather than Mobile
though all of the witnesses resided within a half hour of'S-e>'
(~ Appendix c,at 43~47.)
6. During the selection.

used its peremptory challenges to exclude blacks from the'l',
We objected on the ground that the prosecution 1 s chari:e
were racially motivated and therefore improper. The ex~
tions offered by the prosecution were simply notcredtble

example, although the government explained that it ex&
certain-black persons because they lived near perry Courit
might have been influenced· by pre-trial publicity,
who lived in neighboring counties were excluded.
7. During the trial, one of Mr. Sessions'
.wrote "WITNESS LIEn n or "LYING n in
"
of paper, and placed the sheet on the edge of the jury,-j)
such a way that it could, be seen by the jury. Eventua'~
spectator called this to the attentio..p of the court 'and~-d~'

counsel, and the jUdge directed the prosecution 'to stop;.
as I know, Mr. Sessions never reprimanded hiS 'assistatft
8. Mr. Sessions I office made it nearly
the defense to examine the ball6tswhich were the subj~ti't.;!
indictment. For example, the defense asked the 'gdvei"
make available the ballots for our inspection duriogt
of May 21, 1985, when we would be in Mobile.
369
,:Uce refused, stating, that the ballots were in selma and

"log them would cause "chain of custody" problems. Less than
weeks later, in an attempt to arrange to see the ballots in
"the defense was advised that the ballots had been moved
C§£! Appendix E at 7.) Moreover, even though the
t ordered Mr. sessions' office to make the ballots avail-
to the defense (.!!!. Appendix F), his chief FBI agent would
permit us to examine one ballot at a time, and then only
'e could identify both the name of the voter and the number
We were never able to examine most
it.he several hundred ballots, though at one point the govern-
attempted to offer all of them into evidence at trial.
9. It is standard pretrial practice for prosecutors to
;"ri'over to the defense FBI notes of interviews with witnesses.
are called "302' s." If such notes are at all
the prosecution ~ turn them over. In the case
·he witness Alma Price, the FBI conduoted three interviews.
he first, on September 25, 1984, Ms. Price told the FBI that
.oted for a candidate named Reese Billingslea and did not
any change on her ballot. (~Appendix G.) (Her ballot
·'·ted a change beside the name of Reese Billingslea.)
to the notes of the second interview, on October 5,
Price explained that, though she did not make the
'i.{"e;, she direoted Albert Turner, one of the defendants, 'to
,and that he did so in her presence. (See Appendix H.) On
,,~er 13, 1984, the FBI conducted a third interview, this
- 5 -
370
time to get the witness to confirm 'the content 0'£ the!i

interview. (~Appendix t.) Mr. sessions l office producf
FBI 302'6 of the September 2S and December 13 intervieW
not that of the October 5 interview -- the one that: was
exculpatory. The existence of that 302 was not disclda~
aft,er the witness was put on the stand by the U. S-.AttCl '
adopted the exculpatory version she had previouslyqlv~'
was only during subsequent cross-examination of an· FBl~

that defense counsel discovered the missing 302. '!'hus,~ -d~
two requests by the defense, one of which specificalf

quested prior to trial the 302's of Alma Price by namet/a
prosecution's constitutional duty to honor those teques
Sessions failed to produce material tending tosho~ a
dant's complete innocence of one of the counts
ment. (See also, Appendices J, K, L.)
10. In pretrial discovery, the defendants
the FBI had identified any absentee ballots
defendants which contained alterations that
selves acknowledged making or authb:dzing.
office did not indic'ate that any such exculpatot:y;.;'
existed. I understand that at a hearing beforet
Judiciary Committee, the Justice'Department admit'te'd't
20 exculpatory ballots did in fact exist.
11. On June 18, 1985, the magistrate
prosecution not to introduce evidence of improper nota
because the defense had shown that evidence of sucha6~~
371
oter activists supported by whl tea had never'heen proceeded

by Mr. Sessions' office. The prosecution acquiesced and
it contemplated calling no such witnesses. Never-
trial, the government put on three such witnesses
'.i'y Burnett, William wimes and Willie Lee .. - whose ballots
~cted no changes and who were questioned primarily about
,dircumstances under which the ballot was notarized.
The government produced no evidence on 12 of the 26
mail fraud alleged against Mrs. Turner. They were
outright at the close of the government's case.
In the course of trial, my co-counsel, Howard Moore,
i was summarily held in contempt of court, purportedly
~se he was attempting to probe the issue of selective
cut ion in his cross-examination of a key witness, despite
order setting that subje,ct off bounds. In my
Moore was attempting only to expose the witness'
a subject always suitable for cross-examination under the
al Rules, and I have made that arg,ument at length on appeal
Eleventh Circuit. I have also argued that the district
's action was constitutionally flawed. In response, Mr.
~nsl office filed a brief consisting of 10 sentences of
ment"; it was devoid of any analysis of the record or
aw, responded to none of our arguments, and was in all ways
and unprofessional.
In my opinion, Mr. Sessions has demonstrated himself
best lackluster, and at times unethical, as United
- 7 -
372
States Attorney. I see no reason to expect more of hima~:
federal judge, He is simply unequ1pped for the task.

this Committee not to recommend his confirmation.
Under

me this ~ day of March, 1986 .
.~~
My commission expires on _
r:/l,"'",",-.-.,,,, ~"~'':'''-
tI~i/l~1 /4'3,';;.. ~ S,i-,.,7"1 or::' tI..;;....,j (~.7 ,-
No. )0/- '1',,,g'o-:.,,
QIA ~ /. r. ,J /·1 K.- ~ ~ ... y
(....?., ". c.!>!·· , tit',J,~s. "A~" ':;":1) ri''''-
373
APPENDIX B
IN fHE ONITEO STATES OISTRIC'r coon rON IKE

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA
NORTHERN DIVISION
A.,"t.EIUCA,
CRIMINAL CASE NO. 85-00014

eaT TURNER, SPENCER HOGUE,
• and £VELi'N TURNER.
ORDER RELATIVE TO PUBLICITY

This case is one which has received and wi~l probably
to receive sUbstantial publicity.
The cQurtls of ,the opinion that at this time it should take
the integrity of the proeeedinqs in this case by
actions of counsel. The court will use &'8 a
order DR 7·107 of the Code of professional
of the Alabama State Sari which should have
verned the actions of counsel, to this point.
It is OROERED that:
1. From the date of this order until commencement of the
.... ..
,
0: disposition of this ease witnoutt'r-1al, a lawyer or law

associated with the pro~C'ution or defense shall not make or
;r~icipat~ in makinq -any extrajudicial statement whieh a
as'onable J;lerson -would expect to be dissem.inated by public·
~nication, and that relates to:
(al the character, reputation, or ::Irior
erimin~l record (incluainq arr~s:s,
indictments, or other charqes of cr imes), 0 ~
:he accused.
ib' ':"~:! pos!iibilt':.:: cE 1 n·):! rJ: :;o.;i::':,

:'0 '::..~ ,.,::!!:'Ise cha:g.::d 'J' :<.,l .:1 ll!:'ll:lu:
oJ! f-=n.s~.
374
I~) The existerice or contents of any

eonf"!ssion. admission, or statement 91'/8n by
the accused. or his t'efusal or failure to
make any statement.
(d) The £)erformance of any examinations
or tests or the refusal or failure of the
accused to submit to examinations or tests.
{el The identity, testim.ony, or
credibility of a prospective witness.
' f l Any opinion as to the guilt or,;
innocence of the accused. , the evidence, or
the merits of the case.
The fcrag-oing shall not be construed to preclude the
law firms, during this ~eriod, from announcinq:
(a) The name, age, residence
occupation, and family status of the accused.
(bl A request for assistance in
obtaining evidence.
(c:l The fact, time, and place of arrest.
(d) The identity of irrvestigatin9 and
arresting officers or agencies and the length
of the investigation.
(e) At the time of seizure, a
description of the physical evidence seized,
other than a confession, admission, or
statement.
(f) The natuH, suostance, or text of
the charge.
(9) Quotations from or references to
pUblic records of the court in the case.
(h) The scheduling or result of any step
in the judicial proceeolngs.
{ i ) That the ac.:used denies the charges
~ade against him.
375
,. proleout.ion or detense shall not make or partieipeit.e: 1n

'ing an ext.rajudicial .t~tem.nt that a reasonable person '.... ould
disseminated by means of pUblic communication tha~
I relat." to the l:.rial, parties, or tasue. in the tri·.l and (b)

reasonably likely to interfere with a tair trial, except that
lawyer or law firm may quote from or refer without comment to
blic records of the court in the ea.e.
OONE this /7 +J <lay of April. 1985.
GE
376
APPENDIX C
IN IHE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR TH

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA
SOUTHERN DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 0

0
Plaintiff • 0
0
VS. 0,
0 CRIMINAL NO.
ALBERT TURNER, e t: a 1. 0
0 85-00014
Defendants. 0
RESPONSE TO OBJECTION TO SEQUESTRATION

AND REQUEST FOR PROTECTIVE ACTION
Comes now the United States and files tbis Response"

the objections raised to the sequest~ation
case. SequesCratio~ is necessary and essential in

we SIe ~o insure that the verdict rendered will be
facts of the case as they develop at trial rather chaD
being based on false and misleading ~nrormatioD that may
the jury £rom the news media. In support
the United States shows UDto the Court as follows I
1. It is obvious that a concerted effort has
by parties, ~ounsel and those acting on
pleadings and public statements, to 'create the impress
this investigation is unfounded at racially motivated.
377
are false ,aad can only be construed as a

i~f an efCott to poison the jury pool and to attempt to
witnesses to be reluctant to testify •
• !acts sr. thst in April of 1983 the Grsnd Jury of
Alabama issued an important report. The majority
Grand Jury was Black and it bad a Black foreperson. In
rep'crted that lthey had "extensively and eXhau~tiVe}y
"igated the Yoting situation in Perry cou~ty.t1 A copy 0("
')pOtt ,is attached to this motion. 1n th~t report they
.
that they were convinced that a fair .,.laction "is being
the citizens of Perry County, both Black an.d White."
encourage Vigorous prosecutions of all
tlODS of Yoting laws Ind especially would t~quest the
and assistance of an outside agency, prefettably
to monitor our elections and lnsure fairness and
p~ existance of tbis report is well known to counsel

defendants, but they have neg~ected to mention it in
upon the government.
he-·electton that the Perry Couaty Grand Jury was
tgatlng was the 1982 election. Because that Grand Jury
conducted an investigation and returned no
ents and because it was expected that these problems
not continue after the actIons of the Perry County Grand
this oHice declined to conduct an loves,tigation at that
'.
-2-
378
tIme. After that decision, no additional actf.oD was

contemplaced by the United States Attorneyls OfUce t'da~td:
Petr)' County voting matters until late in the week pc'lo't";'

1984 primary election, which is the basis for 'thls pros'e
Late in that: week The UnHed States Attorney's Office'."t'e'c:
call from the Oiscrict Attorney afPerty County
Cwo Black officials w«~e with him and they were
that a concerted effort was being made to deny a fair
They asserted that 8 massive effort was being made to
absentee ballots and that fraud was
process.
The only action that the United States took at ths't'·,·
time was to observe 'tbe,.Marion County Post Office
Monday night, the'Monday night before th~ Tues~ay
that tIme the three defendants on separate occasions dep"

into the mail box approximately 504 a9aentae ballots.
8y Order of the CIrcuit Court of Perry County, tho.
ballots were marked and every ballot,. whethetit had
by the defendants are not, was examined to see if it
altered in any way. SOlDe 75 ballots were identifiedss,
erasures or other alterations on them. Al17S of those',,'"
were interviewed; Many of these voters
this case and are expected to testify that these ballots,,;
changed witho'ut their permission and that they had given:-~
one DC the defendants lor mailing.
-3-
379
.he UnIted States Attorney's Office did not coordinate

''':''''.
nvesdgation with the Department of Justice as part of a
of prosecutions nor did it coordinate ie with
States Attorney. The investigation came about
call by the Perry County District
Jr" shortly before the election in 1984 relating to
had'received acd no sueh investigation had
to that time.
T-hevotes that had been altered without 'the per,smission
e voters involved a change to 8 Black c,ndidate supported'
Defendants from anothet Black candidate. 'I:he alleged
,1.~1 wit.hOut con'tradiction, Black on Black.,
With full knowledge of this deuatioD; ,some counsel
e~derendants have regularly made inflammatory statements
'ewspapets charging racial bias and prejudice and making
,·a-n'd oemeaning statements about those who would tescify
Uof the government. Attached hereto are a number of
\,:i'pp,lngs, cews releases and lIfactsheetsll which indicate
publicity this case has generated and which also
the irresponsibility of the defense counsel and some
f~supporters. Based on the statements contained in these
that we may expect that similar comments
will be given to the media during the trial
the jury.
-4-
380
Below are listed lome of the inflammatory quote8,fr~~i~
the defendants or their supporters which are taken from:.J,

aetached- articlell
"The three Blacks were 'on political death
~f a wideapread eampaign to nullif7 voting righta
in Selma 20 years ago," One speaket accor:dinS to
"bleatad an7bod7who ';a7 tut1£7 agelnst tha trio 'wlth~;
eauae'. Thoae Blaek fnlks who hava'daeided to let the~~
used ought to be r.pudi~t.d by everybody .cro~.
DeCense attorney R08e Sander. par,ticip~;ed in tbe
promotion of • "Unity Day" in Selma for the ""Harictn Tb.~~;!'!
Albert Turner wal quoted in the Montgomery AdYerti~'1
8S a8ying lithe whole thing was eontrived :from. ~~8hiD&_tpnt",::'

on down the local llvel," Turner .aid. "Tbey waDt8!8c~.",
and Whites back in." Defen•• -attorney:Hank Sanders W88:(~

88 comparing the current investigation to an
, , ,
Reeonactuction-!ta Intimidation.
Another article said "it'. cle.11y ~:racist
dhenftanehh.. Bleek voters 'In the Bleek Belt."
Attorney Hank S~nders, also a State Senator, .aid thae
Investigation eould keep Blaeka from getting'eleeced .~~
£at aa tn aa7 thet "Bleek ofHea holdera eould beeOlD,e
the Black Belt." The iCYeltisatioD hal been' referr,~ ~.
"bogus inveltiation." Defeale' Attorney J. + L-. Che8t_.~,_"

crowd at a memorial service that lithe eYidence
-5-
381
Gr(AND JURY REPORT
ALADA)IA
;l1ILIlONORABLE EDGAR P. RUSSELL, JR •• JUDGE OF THE caeun COURT

OF PERRY COUNTY. ALA8AMA.
iI,'tht Grind Jury of Perry 'County, Alabama, ·1n • p'.r'fod of two
~hh' invnUgated ~o/elSts. retur~.d 1.31ndtctunts. questJ,onl!d
wHnesus. no biped ~c;.ses and c:ont1nued..:I. tUtS,
we hereb1 r,port ,h'at the Bond'insp.ttlo~ COllllldtt,'u 'h'is inspected
onds otthe Perry County Officials and h.... e.(found them to be properly
rd-'d/in th'i'Offlc:'il of the Judge' of Probett. ;.
C.ourtbouse,lnspection Committee has Illide I tour .nd lnspectlon
the following:
Tht entlre building ne.ds • new pafnt Job throughout.
Th,re Is • need (or new ch'lrs. desk .nd c,rp.t 1n th,
Tax Col1ector 1 s ofrtce.
There is a ne.d for some pl.ster repalf work to be done
hi tit. Tu, Assessor's OffiCI IS wilt as tht SIClI, r,plir
~ork intlte Hipping Roo~.
Jill In-spect·1on COllllli tte. hlstour.ltI Ind. Insp.eehd tht JI11

h,rlby rep!l'r:t 11tH thl J.n Is 11'1 bItter shipe than it hIS
.. nuabtr of years. There Ire SO/lll rlplfrs needed whlch HI!
Thtre is need for p1.stlr replir.

There,should be replacement 'hI'" III brok.n and IIdssfng
windoW glass.
FJrst' floQ.r shower 'Ind toflet Is In need ..of repair and
painting.
there fs need (or • light in the laundry roolll.
Sroken urinals in the tells need to be replaced.
-TIt'tre, fs ·t. nud for lights in the we~t hal.1-wl)'.
his Gl"lnd Jur,. has u:tel'lshtly Ind uhlil,sti'lelY,1n.vlS,t1g.Ud .tht

H~~ltlon in Perry County. Our gre,itut conc.ern 11 to assure a (Ill'"
all plrties Ind 111 people. At thfs point we Ire conyinctd
ehctlon ts befng denied the cit1uns of Perry COllnty. both
White. Th. prllntr1 problelll tppurs to bl wIth the umpering of
to yote o( thl black citizens of this county. Thl probl,lIIs·lre
l~tflllldttlDn ~t the polls tnd tbuse tnd Interference wilh th, Ibs,nt'l "~
382
bLllatf", proClu. thiuprob~ •• ,Ut'lS lie wlthn~,r,11 and IIncer""".

Ir,u of th, hill' IIlci Ir. ,,",,.11,, confined to thou .. ,.ints D~, o~r:,~o7rt
liIhlch trl I,.d. ,inrt,.••d. or dtubltd. V, tnC'Ourt" ',lgoroul proue'utlon'
"', ~
0' ttl ,totltlont 0' th. '~Unl ' • .,,1 Ind 11,IC1l111 would n.quut, the
pruence ,ncl,,,,.U'stuCt of In 'outsldt I,tnci. pritftrabll,tt'dl'r',-"
our 11.ct~o" ••nd to tnsur. r.lrft.ss and t.plrtt.,1tl for Ill.
At this tl •• fts.1 no r ••• on to ..... In In •••• ton. th.rtfort,
.........,,, ..... .. ".....

r,qulst th.t WI b. htr.bl~ldJourn.d•
~ ~." .... ,
~
.
..
, . -', -:.: :"
.JURY FOR H " .
""..
383
APPENDIX 0
CHARLES A.-HOWARD AND ASSOClA'

P. O. BOX 1971
MOBILE, ALABAMA
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE .SOUTHERN DISTRICT
OF ALABAMA
NORTHERN DIVISION
* * * • • * * * * * • * * * *
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, •
vs. •
CRIMINAL NUM.BER
ALBERT TURNER,
e' ale , •
95-00014
Defendants, •
•••••••••••••••
This ceuse coming on to be heard :on
defendant's motion to transfer case
for trial bef~~e the Honorable Emmett
R. Cox, United States District JUdge
for the Southern District of Alab~ma,
Northern Division, on th~ 8th day of
May, 1985, commencing at approximately
9:00 a.m.
384
CHARLES A.HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P. O. BOX 1911
MOBILE. ALABAMA
PROCEEDINGS
, THE CLERK, Case set for hearing on the
3 defendantls motion to transfer case for ~rial,

"
criminal 85-14, U,S. versus Albert Turner and otheri
6 What says the Government?
,•
MR. ROLISON I The Government is ·r.ady·~
MS. CAREY, Defendants are ready.

8 understanding that counsel for spencer Hogue, that
9 they are unable to appear today.
10 THE COURT' And the defendant,
11 MS. CAREY' Ready.
12 THE COURT: Is Mr. Hogue here?

13 MR. '1'URNElh Mr. Hogue 1a bere,
THE COURT: Mr. Hogue?

" MR. HOGUE. Yes, sir.
I'
.. THE COUll'l' I rt is my understanding that
17 John Carroll i . no longer acting .a local counself
~ youl is that correct?
19 (LONG PAUSE.)
20 THE COURTI Mr. Hogue. would you
21 here a moment, please, sir? I have received inforD
~ that John Carroll is no longer acting as local
23 for you: 11 'that correct?

385
MR. KOGUE: Well, I haven't received a
T~at 1s Why I couldn't respond.
THE COURT; Well, do you know why he is not
MR. HOGUE I I don't know why. He hasn't
11'18 or nothinq.
THE CODRT: Well, have you seen John Carroll
connection with this CASS?
MR. HOGUE; Once.
TBE COURT: Once?

MR. HOGllE: Yes, air.
TB£ COURT: H. never Appeared in court in

with th18 CA.8, has he?
MR. HOGUE: No.
THE COURT J W.l~, you" ~eed to be in touch
an4.either have--"an understandinq that he is
act AS lQca~ ,counael for. you or you need t!='
local counsel in this case.
MR. HOGU!, Yes, sir.
THE· COURT: On. reason wo require local
so ". will alW'ay~ have somebody available.
!IR. HOGUE: All right.
T.E eDDRT; w. are in • position here today

386
CHAJU.£$ A. hV.~AKD AND ~L\'1'1!:::l

P. O. BOX Ifl'1
Moau.!, ALABAMA
where we havenoboay available and I donlt believe
2· have any lOcal counsel. I haven I t Been John CArroll
3 this case.
n
, so, you either need to have an understa'n'd1~
. ,
iIi
, "
"that he is going to be your local counsel and be pres.
• or you need to get somebody else to serve as local'::: ~'

7 counsel for you and it' you can't afford to hire local
8 counael, you need to file a motion asking the
9 to appoint local counsel for you, because you have

- 10 have A local counsel in this ca.e.
11 MR. HOGUEt Okay.
12 THE COUR~; All right, sir. Let me
13 - couple of preliminary Observations.
I am 90ing to consider all materials on

"
1& in conaidering these m.otions. It 1& not necessary
16 anybody to present any t'ttstimony or
17 to matters that are alreacly coverecl
18 file.
19 It i8 my understanding, so that "". dOn't
~ have to hear a lot of evidence on this question, itt,
21 my understanding that all of the defendants r'eji-de~"
22 within the Northern'Division and that, at
23 great majority· of the Witnesses re.id.e in

387
CHARLES A. hOWAft,O AND ASSOCLAT£S

P. 0, BOX 1971
MOBIl.E, ALABAMA
5
Is there any question about that?
MR," ROLISON; No, sir.
MS. CAREY; No, Your Honor.
THE COURT I Mr. Rolison?
MR. ROLISON: No, sir .
THE COURT: So, I am not interested in
any testimony relative to that. That is
Okay. I will hear from the Government.
MR. ROLISONI Judge, we understood they
burden in this ease and you Are taking every-

do they have anything else they wish to offer?
THE COURT; Let me see 1f they wantta
anything. Does 'the defendant, Evelyn Turner.
present any te8timony in the case?
MS. CAREY I Y4ur Honor, we will not present
testimony, at- this time. But I would like to
with the court two affidavits, one that is
right now and one that will be coming into
sho.rtly.
THE COURT: Have you furnished the
• copy?
MS. CARE~l Yes, Your Honor.

388
CHAftl..&d, A. HUWf.KD AND ASSOCIATES

P. O. -BOX It'll
MOBILE, ALABAMA.
THE COURT, Well, now, thil

2 to do wi~h the jury aelection proce •• ,
• MS. CAREY I Yea. But it: a180 ad4r ••••a

4 i8.Ue of the di.p.r~ty of black members of the jur~
6 of juri•• that Are impaneled in Mobile rather

6 Selma.
1 TIlE COURT: Well, I donlt understand
• They both come from the .aru8 jury wheel, ooun.e,~.

-"r,:S
• MS. CAREY; I agre., Your Honor, althou
10 they are drawn from the aame vheel. Itatistici th_
11 haVe been prOVided to In by the clerk of the court
U Mobile luqge.tl tbat black.

~ andath_r r.lidantl of ~h. Porthern District do
U appear al 1'89u101' 1y 11' the Southern Oiler ict --
16 Southern Division a. they do When t.he trial ia
18 Selma.
17 So, the affidavit and attachmentl are,
18 support of that point.

THE COURT: aut there i_ no
~ that is for any reason other than a random
21 reason, 1_ there?
..
~
MS. CAREY, No.
it i_ in any way intentional, but to
There i_
,cliAfU..&S, 'A; III,m' ~Kl) "NO ~UClA'r£S
McfBl?.E~~fl.k
7
has occurred over A period of time since 1980 that
is, in some ways, foreseeable.
THE COURT; Well, now, are we talking about
summoned or jurors who appear?
MS. CAREY: Jurors who actually appear.
THE COURT: Well, I will take a iook At your
but I donlt reully propose to hear any
any objections to the jury select-ion process.
That is going to be heard at a later time.
MS. C~REY; Okay. We just wanted 'the .issue
of the difference, the 1~pact'that the
in appearance tha. t has' been noted by the c ler
on the number of blacks Who are' available 'to
on "the jury if it is in Selma rather-than 'Mobile.
THE COUR'!'; All right. Is there anything
want to presen~en behalf of the defendant,
Turner?
MS. CAREY: We 'will be presenting an
fro~ the defendant, Evelyn Turner, as I said.
It will be available to the C6urt -shortly and I wouid
also like to reserve the right, o£ cdurse, to'present
argument to the Court after the proof is before it.
THE COURT: All right.

390
..
CHAHuwi it. "".h\""!J.I AND ~IA'I~
Mcia3i:~
Ma. ROLISON: JUdge, we would ask for a
2 showing of what that affidavit i . going to 8&Y 80
• we pre.ent our evidence we may addre.' that i.aue
we .ak Whether or not that ie 90ing to be supplied to

•
• U8 lince we have received very few documente. They'
• have all been filed under ••• 1.
7 MS. CARBY I Your Honor, ODce the affidavi~,~

'1
• i . received here in court, a copy, of Dour'., will be'"

;;<'
• made available to counsel for the Government.
I. l·ike to introduce to the Court Attorney Victor
who can explain, in detail, the contents of that

II
12 document.
13 MR. McTEARa With all due reapect, Your
14 Honor, I,am a member of the bar of the State of
Mi •• i.Bippi and the State of Maryland and the

" bar of the United Stat .......
" The affidavit which we prepared on
17
IS of Mrs. Evelyn TUrner directly addresses a
19 iaaues, first of all, the inconvenience que.tion and

the difficulty that will be cauled by transferring
21
trial from Selma to Mobile.
.. It It ate. such obvious tbinql a. tb •
. additional amount of m11.age if it ia nec••• ary

','-..'
391
,~' ., ,- .:. ,~, ,: "\ .... :
CHARW.:ll A. HOWARD AND .ull:IOClATll:l:I

P,' O.BOXlll7l
MOBILE, ALAIIAMA
9
the trial to gO to Mobile, noting, of course, the
her location and residence as well as the
and location of mO$t o~ her witnesses.
It also explains directly that there will
hardship ca~sed to her and the witnesses who are'
all persons ot limited means financially. As well AS
counsel that will not have access to legal consultation
secretarial skills available to them here in Selma.
The affidavit states the reasons she believes
clear-cut hards'hip and why that will affect
ability to present a defense and havi a fair trial.
TilE COURT: All right. Is there anything
defendant, Albe~t TUrn&r, wants to present?
MR. TURNER: Nothing, Your Honor. We reser~e
right to arque after the Government finishes.
THE 'COURT t A..il right. Mr. Hogue, since
have no attorney here, I will ask you, is there

(
you want to present on this 1II0t{on?
MR. HOGUE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Rolison.
MR. ROLISON: Judge, we would call Marshal
Garrett.
392
C~ A. "UWAttOAND A:l\IkJCIA'!'.b:$
p, O. BOX 1171
MOBILE, ALABAMA
MACKEY GARRETT I
2 called as a witness at the instance

3 Government, being duly sworn, was examined and
• testified as follow.:
OI~ECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. ROLISON;
7 .~ State your name.
• A- James Garrett.
• ~ , Where are you employed?
10 A- United States Marshall. Service.
11 ~ What is your title with the marshal's

12 A- Chief deputy United States Marshal ot
13 Southern District of Alabama.
And that office 1s in Mobile?

Mobile.
How many dep~y marshals do you have?
Seven, I believe.
Who is William L. Brookhart?

18 A- Mr. Brookhart is the Circuit
~ coordinator fer the Eleventh Circuit.
And he 1s with the marshal'a service?
,. A- 8e 1s an inspector with the marshal's
D service, yea.
393
/
11
Do you know what his duties are?

A. He provides advice and setups on problem
trials, security for tr~'ls, security for jUdges and
things of this nature.

And has Mr. Brookhart been to Selma with ybU
to inspect the facilities here?
A. Yes. This past Friday.

And you conducted that survey with him?
Yes.
Would you explain to the Court your

procedure for rating trials as high risk trials- "or
you have levels that you refer to trials' as being at
a certain level.
MR. McTEAR: May i t 'please the ~ourt, Your
Honor, we object. This witness has not been qualified,
himself, to talk about !he matters which counsel
presented. Counse'l has very shrewdly pointed out the
fact that there was another person pres~nt' who WAS the
"specialist for 'the Eleventh Circuit.

There is' no indication that this witness
has those qualifications, at this time, and we object
to his testimony.
THE COURTt He is the Chief deputy marshal
394
of the district. I will overrule the objection.,
•3 MR. ROLISON I Okay. Let me ask you this_I;,
do your duties include security for courtrooms?

l'
• Yes, air.
, How long have you been with the ~arshal'a
• service?
7 Seventeen years.
8 ~I deputy marShal, have you had any
• to ~onduct a security or supervise the security of
to trials?
11 Yes, 1 have.
Q. All right. Tell me about what. you found ,0

I:
when you made your survey as far -as any problem~,wit
13
. .ecurity for this particular fa,cility here in Selma"
AlabamA.
" This building-baano •• we have no c~u~~
18
17 security officers based at this facility. We donlt
an X-ray machine nor a walk-through ma9notometer~~}~

16
back door does not. have what we call a craSh bar. ,_;;
.." hae to stay unlocked and there is no way to lock the

back door.
21
.. To move a jury in and out of the courthou

you would have to bri~9 them through the pUblic.
395
13
)<rne'jury room where you could get to it without.
Ying to bring them all through the pUblic, through
e halla and that Icrt of thing.
The jury room i . up on the third floor. ~ou
~ld have to bring them in and up through the court
the hall to the courtroom.
'l'he building is situated .• that if you had
mcnserator' or crowds of people you cannot get into

he courthouse without coming- through a bunch of people.
ere is no secure area that you can qat into to get

building.
MR. McTE~R: May it pLea •• the Court, there
',a case Which haa come forth from the Eleventh
Ircuit, the United States versus Burna, which is

,
~ther clear on the subject of justification upon which
e;t?e may be a motiOn tOJo:·tra.nsfer. There is no mentiOn
any 8tan~ard, under Rule 18, that refers at all to

'ourity as a basis.
we, therefore, mo~e to strike the followinq
just given a,s being irrelevant.
THE COURT, Well, I will deny your motion
you may have a continuing objeotion on the grounds

relevance.
C~,A. tf,uWIJW AND .ul:lOc.:IA1'Ed
~ P. O.BOX 1971
MODItz.. ALABAMA
MR. ROLISON: What kind of ,loCkup
• you have here?

..
'~-
3 We have a small holding oell·,whic-h j;si
• actually two small cells with a false ceiling.

, not a secure area. We have to have someone the~'e~'
, watch, it if they- have anybody in the 1ockup~at ',a:t-',"
t.im.es.
• What. about .pectators, what did you ~a
9 aa far aa the spectators at a tr'ia1?

I. This particular courtroom would ha-,ndl'ey;i'
11 appr~ximately fifty spectators and, of course, ',H"ti:,,,.

13 small courtroom, if you have a laz=ge press, th'at €\"
13 to keep the public out, because the pres's WOu1:d,·ttai ':,
14 have spaoe and wou-ld take away more from your 'lo'c~
,,~ "
16
spectators.
All r'iqht. Let -me ask- you, this', di'cL;y,

[
11;
17 have a problem or do you have a problem When ":1'o:li':,,"
,Ir
16 spectators out of a trial that is a high pUbli6tti-
!.
~
19 type of tr'i.l?
30 That tends to create a proble'm, yes.
31 All right. What aboUt the jury

. about where to house the jurors?
33 A There is only actually one motel in

897
~ A. 'I"'WNW: AND ~1A'1'1IOIt

P. O. BOX 1"'1
MOBILE, ALUAMA
5
~~t, 18 large enough to house them and that would be
Holiday Inn and it i . no~ suitable for housing

'~i~questered jury.
Why ill. that?
Every room in the hotel opens to the outside.
no amount of Peraonnel you could kaap people

they could be photographed from the
They could be hollered at from the parking
It is nearly impo •• ible to keep it aecure.
Okay. New, you have no marshals here

here in Selma, Alabama?
How Many extra marshals or extra men would
secure this building and -- well, this

first?
It would take-i· in my opinion, a total of
fifteen people, a minimum of security, and that

for the whole thing.
Would that inclUde the jury too?
Yes.
What about the feeding of the jurors,
that they were sequestered?
This k>uilding ·haIJ An extremely small jury

'398
cKARi..lcia A,H6'WARD AND ASSOCIATES

p,p; 80~ 1971
MC?BILE,· ALABAMA
room ana it d.oes not -- it ."au'ldbe· difficult";tio':i~,
in th,e jury rOOl11. We would almost be forced. to't
3 jury OUt for lunoh And there is onl:i ODe :feiii'taufi:n'
, close by that would be suitable, about four or fiv
6 blocks that you would- have to carry them throuqh
6 to get to.
, If you will compare this facility
e Sel~a to the faoility in Mobile.

; M1L McTEA:Rl Objection, This witneSlli J(,
I. not been established in any way, Shape-or form

11 any knowledge of the facility 'in Mobile.
12 THE COURT: That is wnere he is
MR. McTEA:R.l Please forgive Ille,
14 I am from Mississippi.
U THE WITNESS:
16 that we can bring the jur'y into the buildfng
11 ever exposing them to the pUbl 10. They 'come
18 froln the vehicles into the courtroom ffocr diredt
19 into the 'j'ury room and we clear the hAlls
20 spectators, 'lnove them r'i9htdownthe- hAll
21 room.
22 The jury rooms are ia~ge'-enoil9h that
~ cater the noon meal to them and we have a local

899
eHAR1..i:S A. nOWARD AND ASSOCiATES

P. O. BOX 11'l'1
M08lLE,·AJ..ABAMA 11
~~ ..... t!;~can houle th~m i.n where all,. the,rooma open
~'id. to an inlide hall. It i8 easy to keep 8ec~re,
public OUt.
HR. ROLISON' What type of lockup do you
there?
We bave tWO lockUp facilities in-Hobile each
holdinq:cel1a. They are •• cure ~acilit1e~.
On your rating system -- I have asked you

before and Mr. McTear objected 10 many times about
level trial do you hAve a ratiD9' to' rate this
level?
They rate them 1, 2, 3· And 4. Tbi. would

.a A high risk trial becau•• of the publicity
would genera te.
And yeu baae part of that on the prier

emonatrationa that have-'b.en in front of the Federal
~ildin9?
Yea.
MR. ROLISON1 No further questions.
THE COORTl Couns.l for the defendant,

Turner, do you have any questiona?
. MR. McTE:AR.: Y.a, air.
400
C:1iAJU;.ES JI(,' HO'WAI'" AND- ASSOCIATES

p, 0, BOX 1971
MOBILE, ALABAMA
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. Mc'1'EAR,
Mr. Garrett, my name is Vic McTear.
don't understand me or would like tor me to
question if you don't understand it, please

~ .. ~.
When was the last time y'all had·a tria!
here?
8 A In Seltna?
, .~ Yes.
10 A well, we started one yesterday. I am
11 assuming you are speaking of a jury trial?
12 ~ Yes.
13 A About two months''- ago, I think.
1. ~ And this particular jury trial, what
15 . the circumstances? Was it a felony case?
Yes.
How many jury trials'have you 'bad
18 particular courtroom in this particular

~ in the last year?
., ·A Counsel, I"wouldn't know.
'1 ~ More than five?
A I am guessing. I would say more than

"
23 ~ So, these particular problems that you
401
C1iAJtLBS~. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P. o. BOX 1111
MOBlLE, ALABAMA
'~re.crlb.4 pertaining to the nature of a high risk

trial, this i . not an uncommon problem. It haa
'happened here before?
'~ Not one l1ke thia.
~ What do you mean not one like this?
~ No with this type of publicity.
~ Not with this type public:Lty?
~ No,
,~ I •••• You are indicating that there have

b••n trial. with pUblicity before, certainly.
There have been trials with aubltantial

publicity, have there not?
I would think '0.
MR. ~URNER, We are 9Qing to .ak the Court
,.to a41llonilh coun•• l not 1£0 shake, their heads when leokin
at the witn ••••
THE COURT. well, t am lure they didn1t 40
that intentionally.
MR. TURNER: They have done it twice. The
firlt time 1 thought it w•• nonintentional.
THE COURT* All right.
MR. McTEARt I a= 1At.rested in knowing when

402
C!i.JI.iu.Zs'A. HOWARD ANO'-ASSOclATES

P. O. BOX 1971
MOBILE, ALABAMA
you say pUblicity not like this, are you referring
2 what, specifically? What made the pUblicity in 'th'!'.

3 case?
• ~ Well, couns~l, for instance, we have

, one demonstration on this particular trial and,
• knowledge. we have never had that before.

7 I see. So, there has not been a case,
• the best of your knowledge, when there has been a
• concern that has been of great and consistent and

10 going concern to this community?
\l ~ I donie: know whether it has or not.
so, what you are doing is
13 judgment based upon a demonstration. You are sayt

",. that the pUblicity in this case was outstanding
of a demonstratiOn and nothing more?

16 ~ Well, 1 won't say nothing more, Dut
17 one reason.
19 well, there is certainly, in this
19 there have been cases which have been tried, sUCh~
20 serious issues such as rape,
21 in your seventeen years as a marshal, wouldn1t you
22 agree?
" ~ . I am sure there have. That

403
CHAR1.Bl:J It.. HoWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P.O., BOX 1t'l'1
MOBIL£, ALABAMA
2l
street in the county courthouse.

I see. There have been, always been matters
been brought in the Federal Courthouse which
o h&ve been of great community COncern, have they
Yes.
And those have been held in this building?

Yes.
De.pite all of this building" problems and
smallness of quarters or whatever elae?
That 1_ trUe.
The fact that this area has a high risk
you put it, does noe mean a trial cannot be
I am not saying that it canlt be put here,
It is just that you would have to hire
personnel to be here?
That 18 correct.
Now, despite the supposed demonstraeions.

been any indication to you, personally _. I
yo~ personally of any activity of any ,
y.re" of any kin~, Which would directly affect· the

, 404
CHARt.ts A. HOWAKiJ AND-~SOCtATES

P. O. BOX 1971
'MOBlLE, ALABAMA
seeurity of this trial?
2 I am not sure if I know exactly what
3 are talking about when you say you perso~ally~
• I am asking you whether

6 personal knowledge, you have been advised by
8 actions by any p~r8ons or any threats or any
7 in any way, ,shape or form other than the

8 which you have already described which, in any
9 leads you to conclude that there is any threat
10 security of this trlal?
11 A. Well, counsel, let me anawer it in
12 fashion. One of the defendants 11\ this
13 ch.q:ged with tiunpering .... - additionally
w tampering with a witness.
Other than that, i . there anything

"
Well, other ~~n stuff you hear On
"
17 street.
So, you don't know that as a fac't?

"
As a fact, no.
"
20 You say based upon this demon8tratio~,
21 by a nu.m})er of persons and on a ohArge which ~-a<~
ti made that one of these defendants allegedly'tampl
~ with a witness. this is the sole baaia for

405
'--,-----~~:;~~~:~:_._~--~+
tho,. is • d.ng., of seou";ty tu 'hi. tri.l? I
I would think so.
And you have indioated further that despite
problems •••••
THE COURT I Let him finish his answer,
MR. McTEAR: Please forgive me, sir. Do you

anything further?
When you say 801e basis, ~hat leaves 80me
things that I can't prove. You know, but this is
t my sole reason. There is other things that enter

o it that I can't get u~ here on the witness stand
swear would happen.

These·are the things that you have indicated
rumor?
Yea.
That yo~ have no basia to believe are true?
I have no basis to believe they are not
either.
What· are these items, air, that you have
your own personal knowledge to be true and

and not just rumors? What are the facts.
You have paused in reapondin9 to this question.

'tkAR..t.tS A.tlOWAJU).,AND ASSOCiATES
~·P. O. BOX 1Ir71
MOB1Lt"ALABoYM
You have pau8,ed approximately fifteen seconds in,

, responding to this quest.ion.
, What are the specific fa~cts '.hichyou
, demonStrate to you that you have proven, in your,
• mind, ot,he,r than the supposed probletn with- the
• against one of the defendants, other than the

demonstrations, which lead you to believe th~t
8 trial could not t>e .ecure?
• .. Counsel, there is nothing that I can

10 It is just rumors that I have heard, things that,
11 people, you know, have told me.
You say that-- 'this t>ui1'd1n9
security, but you have already indicated
" can ~e resolved, can it not, by brin9ing
" marshals, correct?
" . It can be partially resolved.

: 11 If' you bring 1n fifteen marshals you,.
18 clear out the a-ourtr-oom, allow the ..- clear :out'
. 19 whole buildin9 Qownatair'. and allow, the -j\1r,y, t9
~ in and then' let the audience in afterwards,
21 you?
" .. That cO'u-1d "be' don.e-•

~07
"
C!LIIlIJl&A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

. P. O. 8OXlrf1
M08l1.E, AL.\BAMA
25
1s·. that correct?

Ye ••
What 1. it called. I am sorry.
That 1s A m~9notomet.r •.
MAgnotometer. You can 'br1ng one 1n t canlt
Certainly.
You •• y there. 1. not an adequAte jury room
to be .erved food; i . that true?
Yes t lir.
All right. Now, you correct me if I am
over 1n Mi •• 1.sippi we brrng 1n food and people
there and .at right there.
If there 11 enough apace. That 1s a small
'room.
Mr. Garret:, ~ff1c.r Garrett t 1. it not a
true thete hal been trial. in the past where
haVe been fed in the jury room?
Not to my knowledge.
How were they fe4 in the past?
They were taken out.
The answer to the question i. you can take
out?
A. We had to, yes •.
2 As for this question of motel
3 for A sequestered jury. Right now, isnle i t
4 true, there is no motion pending before this

& this to be a sequestered j'ury?
6 THE COQRTl No motion pending, but I
informed the marshal that this
6 MR.'Mc'l'EARr I see.
• with me, sir, that appropriate measures can b~
I. in order to protect a jury even in a sieuation
11 their doors are on the outside a8 in
12 such as Holiday Inn?
13 A. There are measures we do
14 And, in fact, there is common practi~
15 you have to, under certain circumstance., tha;?y
16 hou •• a jury wherever y~. have available -.ceemod

17 A. If we have to sequester one i!1 $-e~~:a(
~ hAve no choice.
19 Have
20 Yes.
21 YoU put them in where?
A. We put them 1n another one worse.

"
23 Which one WAS that?
409
CHARLES A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

·~.O.BOX 1171
MOl!Ut. JI!,o\8AMA
27
The SelMa Motel.

I stay.4in the Selma Hotel last ni9ht and
Motel, all the doors are fACing outside, if
correctly. It ia a two-a tory building?
Somebody can stand down in the parking lot

Bcream up, hi, Joe, how 1. the jury gelng, and
wouldn't let that happen, would you?
Ne, slr. That ia why aome of th••• gray
are here.
MR. Mc'l'EAR: Your Honor, for the defendant,
Turner, I have nothing fu~th.r.
THE COURT' The defendant. Albert Turner.
CROSS' EXAMINATION
MR. 'l'URNEJh
Hay it ple••• the Court, Mr. Garrett, the••

you have he.rd, you have checked them out by
hAven't you?
I can't ••y .a I have, Hr. Turner. There i .
can check them out. All I can do 1. a.k if
h•• heard the ••me thing and 80me folks
y::,tbey have and lom8 lay they havenlt. ll'bere 1. DO
410
CHARLES A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

p, O. BOX. 1971
MOBU.'ALABAMA
way I CAn run it down.

, But you have taken .tepa to see if theae 0
3 rumors were true and one of the step$ you have tak~rt
.. to ask other people about if they have" heard the" '-artie,
thing?
6 'ie s.
7 What are some of the ruroorsyeu are
8 of?
• I have heard that
W here eAch day of the trial.
11 Do you know who you heard that from?
Right now I couldn't say. No, 1 donlt;

"
13 ~ Do you know who you aaked ab~ut that?
1. A. I Asked the sheriff of Dallas County,
16 was one, if he thought ther·e was anythin9 to it. I,
16 asked the chief of poliCJi. and I have asked sevei:a'l '\'11.',
17 the pOlicemen. Names that I canlt recall right
16 And they have indiCated that that 'is'

19 rumor you have heard and right noW" t, don't know w
~ that i8 true or ~ot. What other rumors have you he
'I Well. one WAS that

~ Jessie Jackson, Would be here to lead the
23 and I think I read that in the newspaper,

411
. CiiARLES A, HUWA,RD ANDASSOcIAn:s

; p~ O~ BOX ·1971
MOBILE,; At.ASAMA
A'nd you have checked ·that out also?
All I could do was a'ak i f anybody else had
that.
Now, is it also a fact that you have checked
the backgrounds of these defendants, particularly
Turner?
That I have checked on the background of them
Yes, a-ir.
No, sir.
Do you know that they are out on bond?
Yel.
Their own recognizance?

I think so.
Even in this ~- this witnesstamperin9
it:uatiol'l, are you aware-'''therewas novlolence or threat
violence involved?
All I know is the charge. I don't ,know what
circumstances are.
Now, are you saying that demonstrations has
leery about Selma and this courtroom and that 'is
of your statements?
Ye's, sir.
412
CHARLES It.. HQWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P. O. BOX 11'71 •
MOBILE, ALABANA
And that would not be a problem in

, .. It would not pre.ent
3 that it pre.ents hereJ no, air.
Why 1_ that, pee. us.
6 the demonltr&tor8?
• . No. In Mobile we bave three

'1 Thi. courtroom -_.. ther,e ia a aid.w.lk directly
a t~is coUrtroOlD. If you bave a large group. of

i out there demon8tratlnq it would tend to taint
w ~ury, 10 to apeak.
11 That ia an opinion of yours'
12 . Certainly •
.. An4 you don t·t know What would taint
" .. No. 'rhat 'is my opinion. In Mobile.
What do you t»••• that opinl,on on?

" KR. ROLISON' ~L.t him
"
., THE COURT' Let him .n.werthequ.~~~
18 Turner •
•9
. If the trial ia in Mobile, if there

21 demonstrators and if. they were on tbe .id.w.l~i
22 only courtroce that front. on the sidewalk ia-':;iC

~ one and we can ~ove the t.ial from thatcourtr ,"
413
31
.co'l,lrtroom that is completel-y isolated from the outside
the building. There i . no outside interference.
'1'hatc\oea what to the trial?
It does nothing to the tr1al. All you do Is
judge is trying it might make him go further
the hall to the other courtroom.
You say that activity would taint the jury?
That 1s my opinion.
What do you ba •• that opinion on?
Well, I have nothing to baa. -1 t on. That is
opinion, counsel •.
You feel that wou1d: intimidate the jury some
of'way?
It could very easily.
The absence of that would give the jury what,
nerves?
No. I donlt think it would give them more
You do feel extrinsicf~ctor8 do influence,
is' that ,·wha't you alOe .ayi-ng?
It< could easlly.
Ne;w,;ln Mobile; would you .- to move the jury
m courtroom to the jury room, how would they leave?

414
CKARLIS l\. HOWAKU AND ASSO<:IATES

P.O. BOX 11'11
M01llL2, Al.\BAMA
I. there 80me way you can take them up1
• No. We would have to clear the hall.~
• You could not do the .a~. thing hare?
• We would have, to, yea.
• And in Mobile, you could seat more

6 is that what you are saying?
, Yel.
• And you would b. intereated in getting.

9 people into ,the courtroom?
10 If they want in.

II So, de.pite the fact that you feel
12 people outside would taint the jL\ry, you feel
13 people inside would not' taint the jury?

·14 Well, I didnlt •• y that. But
16 inside, once they',get 1n the building they would
16 under control, more or lAS8.

THE COURT; They don't demon.trate
"
\. the bu:5.1dinq, 1s that what you are saying?
THE WITNESS; Yel, sir.

" MR. TURNER l Now, Hr. Gar ret t"
'"
21 be a true statement that --
~ be the first trial that you know of that has .be
a from Selma to Mobile?
415
,cHAitLEs' A.,HOWARD :.um".usOClATES

P., O~' 8OX;11l71
MOBILE,' Al.AilAMA
33
Cou:nse'l, I doni t -think it is the first one.

sure,
Do you know of one?
Right off 'the top of my head I oan't name
but I am sure that they have been.
'Why are you sure of that, if you~don't know
one?
loan remember one being moved, but I oanlt
of the trial. I
THE COURT: They have been moved both ways! I
We have moved Mobile cases to Selma and i
cases to 'Mobile.
MR. TUR~E:R, All rig'ht, Thank you..
THE: CoUaT, Mr. RoliSon.
MR.- ROLISON: None, Your Honor, Thank you,
Garrett.
MR. McTEAR: With the Court's indulgence,

aHidavi-t has just gOtten here. 00 you mind if we
with our witness justa sec~nd?
!rHE COURT: Not at all. Is there anything
anybody wants to present?

MR. MoTEAR: If Your Honor please, we would
make argument.
416
CHARLI:S A. hOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P.-O. BOX 1971
MOBILE, AUoSAMA
THE COURTs Before you Argue the matter"
2 need to let you know what the oalend.r situation ~~.
3 A jury term 11 tentatively scheduled in SelmA
4 June 3rd. There i . no jury term scheduled in
& June 17th and it would, in my jUdqment, be

8 and inadv,isa,ble to attempt to select II; jury· on the;3
to commence trial on the 17th. So that' possibility-
8 needs to be ruled Out.
II There 1s no jury term scheduled in Selm'a
W aft~r June 3rd, at this time. until
11 the possibility that JUd98 Hand may schedule a jury;'
12 term here, however, when he ccmeahere onSeptemb•.;;;
13 But Septembe'r 23rd would be the earliest
1. Selma after June 3rd.

1& So, if 'this case is moved from MObile t
18 Selma, it would seem .th'St the only possibility. of'.",
11 it tried anytime leon would lunch-te that we sEile6t.",':
18 the jury in Mobile on the 17th and then move -the~/
19 up here. 'l'hat is the enly possibilit.y that I
~ would accomodate both a transfer and any kind
21 apeedy disposition of the case.
~ I don't know what counsel's position
U be on tryinq it en June 3rd, except counsel for

'~
417
. CHARW A, HOWARD AND ASSOClATE.'l

. P. 0, BOX 1971
MOBILE. AUBAMA 35
has told me that that would be unacceptable to
I beg your pardon, Mr. Stavis has told me that
3rd would be unaccsptableto him to commence the
I donlt know what counsel's position otherwise
All right. I will hear from .you.
MR. McTEAR, Your Honor, I am also with Mr.

altho~9h based 1n Greenville, Mississippi, and
will speak for him today.
We would need approximately two minutes to

if Your "Honor would allow it.
THE COURTI All right," Well, letts take
five-m'inute recess.
(RECESS .1
THE COURT: AU right. I will hear from yo~.
MS. CA~£Y;. Y~r Honorj the motion that: is
~eBently b&forethe Court involves issues that have
_.~&e'nspecificallyandclearlyaddressed
by the Eleventh
:£rcuit in- the ease named U-nited States ve'rauB Bur,nB.

In this 1981 deeision, the Eleventh Circuit
said that the fixing of a plaee for trial,
;ven'~hoU~h i t is within the sound diseretion of the

Court Judge, must be exercised to give due
418
CHAJU.ES A. HOWtJU) AND ASSOCIATES

P. O,:BQX 1911
MOBIL.!. A1.A8AMA
regard to the criteria that is outlined
the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

, Namely, the convenience of
, defendants and the prompt administration of jU8~i~
6 The conviction
6 Eleventh Circuit with the 'court noting, in supper-t':'i:
7 its reasoning, that the distance between where ~he
8 alleqed crime was said to have occurred and th~
:airmi~9ham courtroom was over one, hundred miles.;
W court also noted that of the twenty-four

11 the defendant intended to call to trial,
~ were located in the division, no~ in the North.~n

13 Division which w&. near Huntsville instead ofth~,<.~·-
14 B!rlll!ngham court.
1& Thirdly, the court pointed out tha't
16 third eriteriae! prompe'admin1stz:atioJ'i. of: justtC!i-'
11 related. specifically to the issue of speedy ~r'~,a:
18 did not find the issues that had
19 the District Court Judge or the judgels rUling~~
~ issues persuasive.
21 In the present
~ to those three criteria ate even more compel1i~9
~ this case, there 1s much more of

419
,,
CHARLEs A;.'HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES
P.O.~X 1971
MOWLE, 'ALABAMA
37
~rd8hipl experiseand inoonvenience tbat could result
an unfair trial to the defend'ant in this' case.
Looking' at the first of the tesU, the
of the defendants. As the Court has noted
all defendants live within the Northe~n DiVision
district,. The defendantsrtherefore, 'if the
set in Selma eouid live at home for nocha~ge
receive many of their meals at home with no
there are very limited transportation
LooJcinq at tbesecond prong of the. test, the
that will be called for. trial of this matter
We estimate between twenty to forty
'triea'aes t that wide of a spread of witnesses who will
'called to 'trial on beh'alf of the defendant. M.any of
.'se witnesses are e1dK-Iy. They an live in Perry
bty or, if not,i'ri. Perry County within the Northern
'hion of this dis,tri'c't.
If the trial 1s held in Selma, they would
allowed to stay at homa at night. They would be
re'ceive many of theirmeal-s at home. There
'111d 'be very-little or, in oomparision, an insignifican
s of empl'oyment or other means of finanoiAl

I
I 420
lust,enance to the witne •••• during the time that
2 would have to b. available for trial.
a Defenee coun••l, 1£ this 't,rie.l i . to
4 in Kobile, will be reqUired to spend considerably

6 t1~e a.luring that the witnesa.1 would appear and
6 avail~ble for trial. Again, there are
of elderly w!tne •••• that the Court can, takeint"CI
8 conaideration and we would alk the Court to take

9 consideration of them being away from home for ,a
10 of Ellaybe up to twO or three days, the more
11 transportation that most of them would

12 to be pre•• nt there.
13 Thirdly, there ia • hardlh1p
14 defendante, personally, and to their couns.lanet:\.
15 being an abaence of adequate Buppqrt
18 in the Mobile area. '1'h'k will affsetthe abili;Yi
1'1 counsel for a;l of the defQndants to prepareth,J
IB caa. to be able to have aecretarial .taff, to ,P.;"~
Ie And type })rief8, memorandum and other document. t
~ mU8t be lubmitted to the Court.
21 There are no officel readily- availabJ.?'
22 Mobile for defen.e counl.l to us. for con.ulta:1;,~g.
23 the numerous witnesses that we will

421
39·
there Are no "resources tor le981 research available,!
after hours, to defense counsel that we know of.

In contrast, in Selma, all of these support
Are available to counsel in a very familiar
As you Are well aware, counsel for

defendant, codefendant, Albert Turner, has iaw offices
here in Selma and-they have indicated that they will
be made readily available to all of defense counsel.

The Court then must consider the third
which aqaindeals with the prompt administration
'Of:just'ice. In this cas., all defendants have' already
':waived, on the record, their ricjttt to a speedy trial
speedy t~ial a-ct. Xn' addition, all defendants
and available to proceed to "trial on June
So that we be~'ieve that the third prong of
te~t is essentially irrelevant, at this point, to

Court's decision and that giving the other
tbst all of the factors of the Ru.1e 18

weigh very heavily in·fav~r of having the trialeet
in Selma.
I would like to call the Court's attention,

have had the opportunity to review the affidavit
422
CHAJU..ES It.. ,HQWARD AND ASSOClA1'ES

P. 0, BOX tint
MOBlI..E, ~t!AMA
that was submitted in support of defendant, Evelyn,
,•
Turner's Jl1otlon- for; trans·fer, and, in that at'fi,dav:i::t
Attorney Raphael Angalotta Lopez, who has been aBsit!

defense counsel outlined in detail the cost and
• expenses that were estimated to be incurred if we
• to have to try this case in Mobile.
Those expenses total in the neighborhood 0
twenty-eight thou8and·d~11ar••
• Taking the same look
9 at the expenses that would be incurred here in Selma;
10 we could come up with an estimate that ia closer to
11 five thousand dollars. That is a significant diffeF~
in expense along with the inconvenience and burden

"
13 quite frankly, the defendant is unable to bear,
,
at
point.
" 'the 'turner Court .. - .,xause me, the Burns'
" Court also made clear th~t the judge's determinatio~;
16
17 the discretion that is 'to be exercised in determinin
where the trial would be held, should be exercised

" within the discretion that is given by the rule.
.
'9
There are cases, in particular Dupont
United States, 388 F 2n4, 29 and u.S. versus Fe~n4n~

"
22 480 F 2nd, 726 that specifically say th.at t.he oonve~,
of the prosecution is not to be a factor to be con'8;!

"
.
"
423
CHA.IU.£S A,- tii,>WAHD AND'ASSOCIATES

M6B~t:~..t.f...k 41
in the balance. The security concerns that have been
raised by the Government in this case can, as we have
noticed from -- as we have observed from the testim~ny
,provided today, remedied in most ways through the normal
procedures of the 0,5. Marshal. It is the responsibiltt
of the United States Government in this case and,
.;,.concerning this courthouse I to provide the order th8-t
is necessary for a fair trial of this case.
We have heard nothing here today to suggest
that they cannot provide such order.
In addition, it is clear that the defendant's
right to have a trial set in" the ,vicinity of the
residence where the crimes occurred or alle~ed to have
occurred where all the witnesses are readily available
C~~"ot in any way be prejudioe by the inability or the
failure ~- not the inab~ity. More So the failure of
"the United States Government to protect and provide
order in a Federal Courthouse.
Thank you.
HR.- TURNERI Your Honor', I will be very
short. I think Attorney Carey covered every point in
detail.
I would like to say that, for the Courtl,s

424
CHARLES A, HO'WARD AND ASSOClATES

P.O. BOX 1971 •
MOBlLE. AlABAMA
own record, with this case to be transferred, Our fir

, '1
2 would be willing to take care of all ~f these smAl~,,~
3 defense matters for the defense lawyers, whereas, it W

, we were re;uired to go further, that would be hard
. " q~r
to~
• do •
*~,
• We all have homes in this area, which
~
7 this i . meat and potatoes I am talking about, not CAS"
8 law. We have homes where we can house

9' ooccunsel and these things I feel like the Court is
10 aware of. The Court regularly
11 between Mobile and Selma.
12 The Court also hears that the
13· going to be trying the case for three weeks. I
14 i t is obvious what our problems are.
1& We are here, Your Honor, asking this
16 to transfer this ease to"'Selma for thOse reasons.
11 appeareel in Mobile and, at that time, we were
18 trial date of June 17th. We
a this trial be put off beyond June 17th.
~ going to Mobile and strike the jury anel
n we will do that.
22 Our pu.rpose it to try this caaa for the
~ convenience of this case, but they should not be
425
43
persecu,ted. When you look at these figures and what
these people hav~ to go to, that is going to amount to
a ~er8eoution, not a prosecution.
As far AS the speedy erial issues are
conc.rned, we will be ready to go on the 17th and we
will do whatever is necessary togo on the I-7th. I
thought we ruled th~ 3rd out when we were down there and
then, if we have to do 8omethin.g to accolUodatethie
Court beyond the 17th, we will do that, if it means
signing another waiver, but we"are not here saying to
continue the ease •
.We feel like to offer 'these people to be
able to present their defenses, that it is a tremendous
burden on them to get the kind of resources to try this
case in Mobile, Alabama.
THE COURT I Xl! right. Hr. Rolison.
MR. ROLISONI Your Honor, we 4ealize thAt
. lit is an inconven'ience on everybody to try Any case
anywhere. >The problem in t;his case', as was stated by
"'the marshal, is the problem with security, the problem
with seeing that fair and impartial-jury is impaneled,
seein9 that no undue influence is Flaced on them by any
o:demonstra tiona, mobs or whatev,er and that they, the

426
CHAJU.ES,A. HowARD AND ASSOCIATES

P. O. BOX 19'11
MOB1l:.E, AlABAMA
witnesses, are brought in and Qut of the courtroom -in

ri'·
an orderly fashion. fi
~ .
The last time this case was set, there was n
planned .- and I am referring to the newspaper account~;
.,
, there was planned by the Reverend Jessie Jackson a
Ii
, oaravan through this part of the state and there was
7 to be stope at every courthouse and they were to
8 speeches and it was for the defense of the three
8 defendants.
'0 Now, that did not come about, but the
11 GoVernment has no reason to believe that that wo,n I t
happen the next time this case is set in Selma.

" case, this building. this physical,. facility here
. "not situated in a way that it would not be very easy~
I' to set up demonstrations.
18 This courtroom is a small courtroom.
17 is going to be a lot of people wanting to
18 and the marshalS are going to have to set up a
18 around this buildi'nq and when some of them are no,t:,-
20 allowed :to come in and see this trial that is
2l the~ are going to be disturbances or there will b~;~~
a possibility of disturbances.
" This building is just not
427
CHARLES :A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

P. 0, BOX um
MOBIl.£, AJ...\tiAMA
45
~hia type of case that hAa had this much publiCity and
baa h'ad this much impact in this community ana. that
Rule 18 says the prompt administration of justice.
Now, it is -- it wouldn1t be the prompt
administration of justice to bring the extra marshals

in here. The problem with feeding and gett1ng these
jurors back and forth through this areA here and it ia
just not the place to hold this trial.
New, the Burns' case, as I understood it,
,it was the policy that all criminal cases were Bet in
Birmingham. That 1s not the case in this district.

We do set cases here for ti:lal. ·We do have oases here.
Cases have been transferred back and forth.
It is going to be an inconvenience on the

Government to qet the Government"switnesses to Mobile,
Alabama. They are elderly, bU~ the Government realizes
that one defendant in this CASe has already been the
subject of another criminal charge in the ~act that
-soJl\eone tried to get thi. witness to change their
,.testimony.
Th~t person, the Grand Jury believed that
person to be Spencer Hogue, Jr. They stated there wasu'
any violence involved. We are not saying there is going

428
CHARLES A, ,HOWARD AND,ASSOClATES

P. b. BOX 1971
MOBILE. ALABAMA
to be any violence lnvolved,but the pressure of',;'
2 this case here, it has a greater possibility -of
S influencing the jury one way or the other, for
, Against, and what the Government would want
and imparti.ljury to decide this case once
6 and that can be best accomplished
7 than it can here in Selma in this courthouse.
• THE COURT:' How many witnesses iathe
9 Government going to call?
10 MR. ROLISON: Judge,
11 to call somewhere· between twenty and forty witne-itfS"
12 like they said. We know there ate twenty"nine
13 and I would say proba.bly forty. neorly forty-.
THE COURT: Po you suppose,
15 will be over a. hundred witnesses
16 Division called in ·this-Case?
17 MR. ROLISON: I doubt it.
l' THE eOUR'l': You doubt it?
19 MR. ROLISONI I 'dou,bt there will
.'" witnesses. Probably being nearer two fifty'
21 THE COURTI YOU mean
22 MR. Mc'l'EARI No.
23 MR. TURNERI w. couldn't

429
CHARLES A. HQWARD·AND ASSOCIATES

P. O. BOX 1f?1
MOB1LE, 'ALABAMA 47
MR. ROLISON: I donlt hAve any idea about
THE COURT: You are talking about Government
when you are talking about fifty?
MR, ROLISON, No, less than fifty.
MR. McTEAR: Let me assure you, if they are
present approximately forty witnesses, we can
~8sure you it is very likely we will present sixty

I will also assure counsel there are
things that happen 'and n'ot. expected in every
We eould go well over a hundred witnesses.
THE COURT: Well, he said he doesn't know
you ~re9~in9 to call.

MR. ROLISON: I don't bel'ieve hewil1 call
xty witnesses, I will tell you that.

THE COURT: l,.',think this issue ought to be
promptly and I am going to decide it, at this
In view of the fact that there are a numbe~
Witnesses trom the Northern Division Who will be
one party or another-, that circumstance is
indicates the case ough,'t to be tried in t.he
The fact that the parties reside

430
CHAIU$S A, HOWARD AND A,§SOC)ATES

P. O. QPX 1971
MOBILE, ALABAMA
in the Northern Division indicate that

2 to be tried in the Northern Division.
3 The prompt administration of

4 that at l~Ast, for this trial setting, that
17th, that the jury be selected i~ Mobile.
6 So, the COurt is going to order,-in

case,· that we will select the jury for the tr.ial,.
8· case in Mobile, Alabama, on the 17th day ot

the jury is selected we will move the trial
10 NOw, the Court is concerned about
11 problems instant to trying this case in this
12 If" a,'fter we commence-the trial of this
"13 organized efforts -- and I am not suggest-ing, that:
14 defendants would organize them at all.
15 stand me. If there are organized efforts to
16 this' jury or to intirnidete witnesses in thi,.
11 Court will; at that time, en,tertain a motion
~ up and move the trial back to Mobile,
19 happens.
~ I want to remind all counsel
21 the Government and the defense counsel,
~ all officers of the court and that
~ problems trying this cAse here and

431
CHAR.I..&I 4. HuwAKDAND ASSOCiATES

P. 0, BOXUn1
MOau..&, AL.ABAMA
h. pUblic who are gcing to want to attend this trial
ho are nOt going to be able to attend and I am going to

It all of you to help the Court with that kind of
roblem. It will arlee.

Some people who are turned away need tob.
old why they ,are turned away. They need to understand
hat we only have limited seating facilities here in

oourtroom. The.e are many waya in which counael
can help the Court in seeing that this trial is
anductea in a way in which it ought to be conducted and

. am calling upon all of you to do that in this case.
Now, this tran.·fer 1&· for thi_ trial setting
If this ca•• doesn't go to trial on the 17th
dr whatever rea.an,-donlt misunderstand me, A8 I

~iht now, 1 fUlly intend for it to go to trial on the
but if it doesnlt~· then whether or not it w111
~e tried 1n Selma on some other trial sett1ng will be
"-ceq"uestion-that the Court w111 have to address, at that
given the calendar problems 1t has.
Is there anything else we need to do, at this
in thiS: case?
MR. McTEARt May it please the Court, there
other motions that need to be dealt with. Your

~32
C,KARLES A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

. p~ ,0: SOX 1971
M081LE. Al.!-BAMA
.1
Honor will 'recall that there was a
, filed by the legal defense fund in
• the defendant, Spenoer Hogue, filed on his behaltt~
• joined in that motion as the representatives fotR~
• Evelyn Turner. The Court, however, ruled and

• to us an order on Monday that we would not be
, to jOin in,that most large and difficult motion~¥
talning to the issue of the selective prosecution;
• this partieular instance.

10 We would Ilke the Court to reconsider
11 previous action and allow the defendant,_ Mrs. ,Tu~
12 to join in .the motion which is
~3 by Mr, Spencer Hogue. We make

,. believe that the facts that have be,e,n, set for:~)l., ;
16 first Illotion are identical to the f'acts as we;
16 set forth in a similar motion.
" We feel there was no reason to

16 to engage in a Quplicative effort through
19 THE COURT: I thought you had a
dismiss pending?
21 MS. BEDWELL: Your Honor, i f I may,
"
23
Court has filed an order dated April 30th
state that all three defendants have ident~cal

433
CIWU..ES A. HOWARD AND ASSOClATa

P. O. BOX 1811
MOBILE. A.I.oABAMA
Sl
and they are all dated February 15th And that ia the
~ction to dilm1s. for ••lective and improper

I think the record indicat•• that there
there 1. such a motion on file for all defendants.
THE COURT; Couns.l, there was A motion to
for selective discriminatory-and bad faith
on behalf of .11 three defendant I on
14, 1985.
MS. CAREY: Right. And then, SUbsequently,
April 15th there WAS a motion filed to dismiss the
a. the product of an invidiou.ly and

prosecution .a a product of the Government
i ,
Grand Jury.
We, at that time, motioned to join with the
-- with defense counael in submitting that
b~the Court and, .1 of lalt week, your order, 48 we

denied UI that opportunity.
THE COURT; Well, what I denied. I think.
a motion to adopt motions.
MS. CARE~1 Correct.
'I'HE COURT: I do that for two reasons.
one, it is an administrative monster to go from

\;
l1e to file to file to s.e which motions have been
•
434
C ~ A. hUWARD AND ASSOCiATES

P. O. BOX urn
MOBILE, ALABAMA
AQopted by which defendants.
with the notion that an'at't~orne'Ywho has an
by his signature to suggest good faith, no
e'ither with the filing 0,£ the motion or as
6 the motion. For both, of ,those reasons, I tilink
everybody oU9ht to f11e their OWn motions,
• turn, I
NOw, if you want to file a motion
think that you need to file a m¢tion to
10 a motion out of turn. That is your next at_p.
11 MS. CAREY: Okay. So the Court W~ll
us the opportunity to 80 file.

" ~HE COURTI You can file, but ~ am
13
to tali you what my rUling will be.

"
16 MS. CAREY; Your Honor, there
matter. There was .an,otJ).er order issued by 1;;he,
""
that we received last week aski~9 us to submit
18
defendants to submit additional
19 of those motions tha.t deal .with selective p~o.,~
The order was siqned on April 30th
us fifteen days from the date that

" provide those affidavits.
22
23 We did not receive that order until

.435
CHARLES' A. HOWARD AND ASSOCIATES

11:, O. POX 1971
MOB1L.E, ALABAMA
53
Monday.
So, I would request of the Court fifteen
the date of receipt of that order for the
said affidavits.
THE COURT I Well, I am going to ask that
that up with MAgistrate Sims. All'of thOle
~otions have been referred to him for hearing and

agreeable with him 1s just fine with me.
going to hear all of them.
So, if it is Agreeable with him, you need
consult me about it, just take that up ·with him.
My only cODcer.n is. 'that the matter be
of in time to permit trial of the case,
the possibility, at least, that the motions
denied.
They need to~e disposed of in time for us
proceed with the trial. He understands that. So,
can take that up with him.
HR. Hc'I'EARJ Thank Y0l,l very much, sir.
THE COURT; Court is adjourned.

(COURT ADJOURNED.)
436
ctWtLEs A. HOW.... fW AND ASSOCIATES

P. 0: BOX 19'11
MOBILE. AlABAMA
C E R T I F I e ATE
2 STATE OF ALABAMA)
COUNTY OF MOBILE)
I do hereby certify that the above and
• foregoing :transcript of proceedings in the matter"

7 aforementioned was taken down by me in mAchine
• shorthand and transcribed under my personAl
• supervision, and that the foregoing represents a
'0 true and correct transcript of the proceeding had

11 upOn said hearing.
12
13
14
"
18
17
18
19
21
22
23
437
APPENDIX B
III TllEllNI'l'EIl S'rATES DIS'rRIC'r COCll'r
FOR TBJ: ,I
SOO'l'DRN OISTl\IC'1' OF ALABAMA
OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
VI. Criminal No. 85-00014
ALBERT 'l'UlUmR, SPENeER ,ROOeE,
om. ANC EVELYN TORNER
Defend&nts.
SOPPIo!:MEN'1'AL MO'!'ION 'l"O usm

TRIAL DATE AF'l'D JULY 1, 1985
AND
SECOND StrPPLZMEN'l'AL KEHORANDOM
n' SUPPORT OF HorION TO CI'SMISS
TllE. INDIC'rllEN'I' ON Sl!:Ll!C'rIV>:/
VINDICTIVE PltOSZCO'l'ION GaOONtlS
Defendant Spencer Boque, Jr., ~espectfully seeks a post-

1, 19B5, resetting of the trl~l date and discovery and a
OD selective pros.cution·o~· the following basesl
1. ,On May 23, 1985, the Magistrate entered two Orders
squirin9, respectively. t~at the Government provide fourteen
·particulars· requested in Evelyn turner'. Motion
Particulars and four (4) particulars requested in
bert Tu--ner's Motion of the lame title, and that said par-
·sbould be filed and served nc later than May 31.
'438
2. On May 24, 1985, the M~qiBtrate ordered the Gevern·

ment to answer six (6) questions in the nature of a.bill of
particulars and to tile and serve those an.w.ra'~[~lo later
than May 31, 1985.-
3. ~he Government did, Dot serve copies of items 1 and
2 above, as required by Order of the Court, on May 31, 1985.
Rather. the Government served documents entitled -Response to
Evelyn Turner's [and Albert Turner'.} sill of Particulars·
June 3, US5' tHem 1 above), which counsel received on J\m8 4,
1985. Spefar. counsel for Mr. Bogue have received no answer
by the Government- to the six questions posed by the M~gi.
tree. in his May 24. 1985. Order. Mor~over, the ·particulars-

which bave been served do nOt in even the remotest way a.~~k~
to some of ~e "questions posed -by the Magistrate--~, Ques-
tions 3, 5, 6. Both of Mr. Bogue's counsel will be out of
the next two days (in connection with this matter, in Mr.
Liebman's case), so that it is a virtual certainty that any
,filing by the Governmect in respoDse to the May 24,
will not reach us before rriday a~··the earliest.
4. Mr. Rolison has Dot answered my phone calls this
day, JUDe 4, 1985, so I have been unable to determine
he bas responde~ or intends to respond to the May 24, 1985,
Or~er.
S. The Government has absolutely failed and refused

provide the following ·particulars R that the May 23, 1985,
Order required it to provi~e in answer to Evelyn Turner's
tion for a aili of Particulars:
- 2 -
439
a. Items 2(j)and'1~ ••k for certain "particular

definitions· ct tarmi aBused in the indictment.
The anlwers give dictionary definition., Dever
referring tc~.hcw &dlctionarydeflnitlcn of
·talae" - b~B '.:ny 'baarinq on wha'c-"thelndictment
means by a ·fall. ballot," The•• answers are
. wholly unlll.t'crmat1v8.
b.. Item 2(k) a-sks "in zag-arc! to the term 'fraudu-
Ientlye' altered' [in the Indictment], wbether
each of the a118984 chang•• was made in' or 'out
of the presence of the voter," The Government
refuse. to say. (On the telephone y•• terday,
however, ~. Roli.on said that &. to a number
of ballets, the Ie-called "alteration" means
nothinq more than that ODe of the defendants
filled out the candidate-••lection portion of
the ballot in the presence of the vo~er after
the voter made hi'Ib_; ~X· on the signature line
and gave' the' -ballot,;,;.'to a defendant.)
c. ttem'70::l)' requir•• the Government to ltate
.~ abientee voters, by name an4race, were
'aided, counseled and enccUra~edl by detendant.~
to file fal •• absentee eligibility statements.
Although 'the Government admits that it fully
fntends to offer ·proof In this reqard ••• that
the defendants ~.r. soliciting ab.entee vote.
- J -
440
without regard to~hether the vo~~~ ~as eligi-

ble,· it does not specify the name, much less
race, of any such voter.
d. Item 24{c) (erroneously label~d 22(0) in Gov-
ernment's response) &sks,.for "the manner in
which each defendant voted ~ore than onee."
The Government's _nswer--that "the defend~ts
~xerci8ed their will over someone else's b&1-

lot"--is' also wholly uninfo~~ve. The Gover~
meat never states, for example, whether some
form of "undue influence" o~ "pressure" consti-
tutes "exercising their will over someone else ',~ .
ballot.· (sy telepbone yesterday, Mr. Rolison
said that &ss~rtedly taking a~vantaqe of a
by getting the voter to make an ·X" on the sig~%
na~ur~ line. while leaving a defendant to fill

opt the ballet ,constitutes "exercising [defen-
d~ts'] will ov~r so~eone else's ba~lot·--i.~i:~
in a situation whe.t'i' there is,ev,ery .indication

of. consent or acquiescence and wbe~e an~:~wronq
do~ng would have te be en sOllle kind of impro:perr,;,

in:fl\J.e~c,:" theory.,),
e. ,In order" that defendants could know :!h.!..sh bal-
lets supposedly evidence ~,4efendant's
v~ti~9. but co~ld, do so without =a~inq the

vot~r's name pUblic, defendants asked (and th~
. - "-
441
Court ordered} Mr. RolL,onto .pe=ify the iden-

tifying number of -each' .uch ballot. See
1t~ 24(4). The GOvernment refu••• to specify
the ballot., however, giving only their total
quan ti ty • (on·the telephone ye. terc!ay, Mr.
RolL.cn refused to give me the name. of tho••
voter. when I ·a.ked directly. Be did tell me,
however, that tho•• voters are d1fferlpt from
the ones lpecified in th•. 'indictmeat.) Accord-
ingly, it 1_ clear that Mr. RolL'OD intend. to
rely OD ballots voted by 35 voter. (lee h1l
answer to item 22(.al, .L!..:., 24(8) whose nam••
defendants haY' never been provided. We oannot
prepare to try this =ale under tho.. circum-
stance'.
f. The answers to item. 24(,) aDd 24(h) are entirely
Wlintell.l.g'ib1e tiven the ab.ence of any 1Jl1'Wel:' •
to item 24tdl. (Moreover, OD the telepbone

y••tor4&y, Hr. RolLeoD informed me that laltered-
fer purpo.e. ot multiple vocinq meant .ometh~nq
quite different from the u•• of that t~rmin

paragrapb 4(1) ,of count tvo--1.e., ,in his view
a wholly unchanqed or WlaI tered. ballot .till
counts tovua. votinq more the once if • a.:.a-
dant fille~ it out after the voter villiaqly
put bi. or her ·x· on the .iqaature lin. and
- 5 _.
442
han4e~ the ballot back to a defendant. Because

we do not have the names of the voters or their
ballot numbers and because these ballots reflect
nd vi.ible ehanqe on them, we cannot figure out
what b&llot. ,are involved.)
6. The Government has absolutely failed and refused to
provide the followinq "pa.rdeula:s" tbe May' 23 i,' 1985, or~er
required it to provide in answer to Albert TUrnerl.Motion:

a. The Government refused to answer item 13.
b. Items 30 and 31 ask for "name[s]
of voters who executed false oaths or were aided
in such by defendants. the GovertUllent intends "
it aC1m1ts, to a4c!uc8"""evidence in thh
but refu'."to respond to the Order by
name. and addresses.
7. Without the answers to the particulars, Mr. Bogue'
and bi' attorneys cannot prepare for trial effectively.
Governmen't l • refusal to respond to'theCourtls orders in a
timely-fashion tenders it 1mposs1bj. fOr the defense to be
rea4y for trial' less than two .weeks from now. To give one
many possible examples, the Government admittedly plans to
rely on the te'ltimony of 35 perlons whose ballots (unknown
defendants) alleqedly evidence multiple votinq b~ defendants.
, ':,'i~:
Despite a request for an identification of tbose voters··wbicb
request this Court ordered the Government to answer by May
defendants still have no sucb.identification. Whenever it
·6·
443
in, ,the futur'. 'it, will, simply, be, -,too late to perm! t the
interviewe4before trial.
On Hay 17. 1985, Jam•• S~ Liebman requested that the
the ballot' materials available in Mobile during
of May'21, U85, when eounselwere'·in Mobile pursuant
order. '1'he Gova:'nlnent' refused, Mr-. R.olison, infonlinq
"s S. Liebman. Esq.:, tha-t moving- the ballots te Mobile would
·chain of custociy·, problems. On June',4, 1985, Mr. Liebman
~~A9'ent it. Garry C.leal, who has custody of the
be (Mr, Liebman) would be in Selma during
lremainc1er of the week (Wednesday'" Friday) in order to· vi.""
Mr. Clem: informed Mr. Liebman, that the ballots
4~ot'inSelma, but'have b••cllloved to Hobile. Thus, when

lee them' in,Hobile, in conjunction with our court
there:; we were refuaed access based on Mr. !loU-
1;.ar~e9t;~_~at'the ballots coul4not leave Selma. Now
Counsel can travel to,Sidma, we are informed that the bal-
,indeed, can beanel'" bave been moved to Mobile tor us. by
There are'over 2,OO~laparat. ballot documents.
',Governmentmaking acce.sto those ballota,lo 4iffi-
cannot be'prepared:tor trial on June 17.
What incomplete answers to the May 23 and 24 ·par-
Orders the Gov.rnmenthas:providedl,clearlye.tablish
arid;a'hearin9 0n aelective/vindictive
- 7 -
o - 87 - 15
444
a. 'the Maqiltrate concluded that cleferuS,aftt's .:1'•.,

-entitled to 90 forward cn the •• 1e~tiv. prc•• cu~ion 4.t.a•• ~~
if th.,Qoverftment'. billa -e.tablish that ••• lnduce=ent"to
fal •• lweariDlJ reqarcllD9 ellqibility [to vete
balb of guilt.' Recommen4atlon at 7-8. Tbe GOvernmen;t nov:~'J
a4miU that it inteDcb to prem,be.the defen4ant'lcrim:inU-,lil..::

bil1ty CD· the cOlispiraeyand othel' ccunU on '·pi-oof • ,", tha,t.
the defendant. were-Ieliciting ~ •• ntee. vote. without'r.9ard~~
to whether the voter val e11g1ble.· (GOvernment '. 1le.~n'.0;'
. to Evelyn TUrner'a B111 cf puU.cularl, at item 7.b-).

mUlt be held.
b. Altbough fatally . .19110UI, giveD the
mantis failure to anawer oa•• tiOD' 3 in the M&91.tr.t.t',MaY:~
Order, the GOvU':UDeat'l an..-rl" to i t . U -1D Albert. 'l'urDer'I";(,

'.rticulan Motion and. 1teu lO.a •.,ud-:.b. In·ZVelyn' Tun.r~si'#'
Particulars Motion leem to 1nc!1cate that -!=proPel' Dotuha~~d~:

tiOD· 11 1n4-.4 an ·1Ddependentbads ot qullt·,-IR.co. .rid.... ;r("/'
tioD at 8) -,under the GOvernJMDt'ltb!Ot'y-with
TurDer. Numeroul balloti who•• v~*rl' namel &reciilted
attachments to theGOvernmeDt'. re~D•••' baveabl ,e
alt.rations on them. Onder the•• circumlt&DQes, the Ma~~I~
trate'l aecommendatioD (p. 8) provide. th&t"-.videD~1ary~pr
CtI.4inis and 'J:elatec1 dil~vel'Y shoul~ bescbe4ulecS.·," ,rO,
c. The Ma91strate. defines -alteJ:ec!, ~llots~
lng 2n!I thoee ballotl al to which the CAn414ate leleQt!OD

m&J:ud on the vote ballot weJ:e -not aut.borize4in any lashi'-'
- .-
.... p -
.~45
the voter" and .s' to Ybich" -there was no form of acquhacence

Consent" by the voter. (Recommendation at 5-6.1 The Magis-
on to recommend that a selective prosecutien heaziog
the "bills e,stablish that unconsented ballot altera'"
cancUates is- rnotl the sine qua non of each conner l.·
It;.-.m 22.c. (sic-should be item 24.<:.) of the Govern-
nt~'-Re.pcnse to Evelyn Turner" Bill of Particulars M?tion
early state! that, whether, or not a ballot was in fact altered
'cha.n9'ed frOID one·,Clandidate to anether, and whether or not
,acquiesced in the voting of his/her ballot by a defen-
(as, for example, by putting his/her ·X· on the signAture
and handing the ballot over to • defendant who filled out
ballot), multiple voting is made out i t the defendants "exe.-
will over scmeone else's b.l1ot~ by ·mark[ing] the
ehoiee ot candidates there.· Horeover, Mr. Rolison
lieitlY informedundersigced counsel by telephone that he
ly intends to rely at trial on testimony falling within the
alteration···vcter acquiescence- example given just &bev••
is eleulynot the sine qua COQ of
"/
tWenty~nine,- therefore, and a bearing
the trial date should be re~et after July 1,

and. hearing on selective/vindietive prosecution sched-
Indeed, by telephone, Mr. ·Rolisoostated that *at-least

of counts two through twenty·seven al.o involves the *no
ation··*voter acquiescence- situation above.
- 9 -
446
--ae.peCtfullY aul:lmittec1;
=XOS L.' CIWlIIUS
e. LlUIX Clll:tNUIt
JAMBS s. LI'E8MAN
16th I'loor
" Bu~on St:•• t
NewYorJc., New York 10013
I ua 1 alt~ltoo'
BY,
STATE OF NEW TOU

II.'
eollN'rY OF NEW, YOU
I, Jam•• S. t.J.ebman, beiDi duly IWOrtl, depoe. &Dd say

that the fo:re/icl:u;. facta ue true to the belt ot my knOW1ed~t~. L,t
and belief.
natec!t -2,30
Sworn to betore me this

4th 4ay of June, 1985.
- 10 -
Ct,RTIF,ICAn OF 'SERVICE
I, Jam~s s. Liebman, hereby certify that copies of the

,foregoing Supplem~ntal Moti~n ~o Re.et Trial Date After July 1,
1985, and Second supplemental Memorandum in Support of Hotion
to Oi.misl the Indictment on Selective/Vindictive Pros.cution
Grounds were served by United States mail. first class postage
addressed tp the .. ~o~lowinq:
Bon. E. T. Rolison
Ass~ltant United'. S~ates Attorney
P~~era~ ,.BuildiPi
Hobile, Alabama 366S2
;1
~ ., "', "'':~~
the 4th
'I'
I --JAMES S •. LI
I
- II -
448
APPENDIX P
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRIC'l' COURT FOR '1'KZ

SOUTHERN DIS'l'RI~ or ALABAMA
NORTBBRN DIVISION
UNI'l'ED S'l'A'rES OF AMERICA,
VB. CRIMINAL CASE NO. 8~-Q0014;

ALBERT TORNER, SPENCER BOGOE
,JR. AND EVELYN TORNER.
ORDER,
'This matter is betore the court on the Government's met
tiled and .erved on May 31, 1985, seeking a
orelers entered by the Magistrate on May 23, 1985. 'l'be
reconsider 1s GRAN'I'BD. Upon reconsideration, it is
le oao~, that nothing in tbe Magistrate's
May 23, 1985, shall be construed. as requiring the Goverl1lllent·;
surrender possession of ab'.ntee ballots, affidavits or 80"181'
to examiners of question documents or the affected voters •

.copies may be exhibited (provided that the affected voters'
be shown only those ballot materials purportedly filed und_:
tbeir names', should the defendants want the ori9'inal'~f
the afor••aid documents exhibi~d they shall arrange for

be done without the necessity
poaaession of the same.

2. FOll.THER ORDERED, that the Government shall rail
defendant Albert Turner's bill of particulars number 13 •
. DONE this 2- day of June, 1985.
UNITED STATES
7 R!C1l
II JUN
~49
r \ r
\
APPENDIX G
..EEQER~L BUREAU OF INVESTIGAtION'
CUo oll .. ~.trlpllo~
30" AL/1A GLADYS PRICE, 210 Linco~n Street, ,Harion, Alabama,

was advised of'the iden"t:ity of the interviewing agent a~d that
she was' being' inte~vrewed regarding an election law violation,
mail fraud violation.
PRICE advised ,that she voted absentee ballot during
the election held in'Parry'County, Alabama, on September 4,
1994.
PRICE advised that she is a retired teacher and not

physically able to go to the voting polls.
PRICE advised that she received her absentee ballot
by mail with no One specifically soliciting her to vote absentee
ballot.
PRICE ,was exhibited an affidavit of absentee voter
with the name, ALMA G. PRICE, 'stating that she does not recall
an ALBERT TURNER or an EVELYN H. TURNER signing," this docu.ment
in her presence. PRICE adyised ~hat sh knows aq ALBERT TURNER
,(but does not know an EVELYN H. TURNER. '
., ,~was exhibited an official absentee primary
election ballot taken from the affidavit of absentee voter
envelope, stating that 'someone at her residence', name not
recalled, read out the names of the candidates to her, with
her asking this individual to mark the ballot ac;ording to the
individuals that she desired to be voted for. PRICE stated
that she recalls s e . icall v LEA
but doe I vi u
s e for. PRICE advised that she authorized
c n rna e no chan es on the ballot
ecifie
1 a ot
. ' . . , ... . ' ~
" IkRI£E]advised that the absentee' ballot was ·taken .

$ersonally a er being sealed and placed in the envelope by
the unknown individual that was at her residence t~ be re~,
turned
;.".
for her. \ \
t wa ,
PRICE is <;l s ribed as a. black female, Telephone NO.
NobUe
9/25/84
.. Marion, Alabama PII • •
SSe-2IS
JN1ES F. BODM!\fl, JR. JFB/slm 9/28/84

0". ~'<"l<~
34
'.
,<onl"n' n,lln", ,.<o",,,,,"~.lIoo."0' <oo,ju,loo, o! \'" 1'6'. II ,,1M o'OO"!Y 01 11>0 nn .o~ "'O'M~ '" YO"' 19'OCY,
10.""11 ". "0' '0.' ~I",ll>ul.~ 0",,10' YOU' '9'.<Y.
450
.IOIU" Iu,,-.w 0' &HYUTIGATlON
_., ....lJlL1IJ1L~
axa G. l'JUCZ, 210 Lincoln· su••t, .... :r:10ft. Alab....

black f","e,' ute .of birth ".nuu)' 21, nOG, "u, _4vh_'" of '>
t.he identity 01: the ,LnUrtiev1n, .,Iqt an4 the pui'po•• of .tlll,':_: ""''-:<
!nt_nobV'. 'IUCS ... interviewd.1ft \he pr'••ne. an4 vith ••d'~iiQ.,;
of LA.VORNI Pan:.IPS, :lnft.ti,.toa: for ..the Di.trict Attorney', ' -';-ct'"'.
. OUic~, Madon, Alabau.
Mr•• 'faCE a4vbe4 ber ab..nt•• ballot va. b~9ht.
t.o ber: by-ALlOT 'l'UIUfD, anc! ~t he " . . ,r..
a t when Ibe ,voted,
anc! in fact IC\"'I11)' "fOul! fol' bU. Mra. ruCl expla1naa that
4\1ot to 110' .,. Ihe CIMQt nl4 that ,",11. 'f'tJRKU r.d the ballot
to b:lr, and IJ.nc::e lb. 414 !lOt know vho the cucU4at•• _rl',
panbud hba to ""ota her bdlot for hu. Jb:'1. PJlICZa4v!se4
~t . . 4i4 knoW REESE BILLDIGSLU. . . one of ~ cln41c1at. . ,
and lirlt "'o:t,4 lor: biJII, Inc! .1 b4lat Iha can recan, .."a4 TURNER
to .ui)c.e lib DUll OQt, that i. Dot vote for bPI, but 'v~. for
his oppc;l,nent. ,Mz'I. PalCE .491..4 that ah. never look~ a1:. ,~.
kllot. 1:.0 vuif1 tha1:. '1't1JNU .arked i t a. abe iD.tructad. but.
UUI1:.e4 h1a to,.~'" she ..~..nltd •• ,,.,.. ',.
Mr••
'RICE advbd that .everal 41y. pdor. Ibe Va.
coatact.ad .,ain by '1'tI'RNEJt:, who askad if .he bad bau C!!Clnuctd.
by t,he nz., Af~er _~. aa.w....din tha afUDl4Uve, b.to14
b.r that ahe did ftg1:. ba"e 1:.CI 90 1:.0 coqrt, sha cCluld tall tha
F81 that'she ,w. . physicaUy unsbll to 90' to CCNZ'1:., &n~ that
.he could furnish a atatamantto 1:.hi. eff~~.
_ .......,_-"'0~I"S~/".~.'-- ·.,_-'.=r:;i~o~n~.:...:.~1~.~.:"'=.'-
. • HohUe
TMo . , _ , . , . " .. _ ~ ·...... , .. _ . _ .. _......,.I;;

_ _ ltt u ' ' - " . ",.>,-,'.'"
451
" 1
-, ~
I
, APPENDIX· I
nOlI'lAl..IUR£AU 0' IN\lI!STICATION
30. ALMA G. PRICE, 210 Lincoln Street, .Harion, Alabama

36756, was contacted at her residence, and,after being .p~rised
of the identity ot the intervieWing Agent and the nature ot
the inquiry, prov:l.ded aui fo110w1n9 -infomationl
,PRICE was read an 1D-302 reflecttnqan interview
vith benelf and SA JAMES r. BODMAN, JR. conductad on 9/2.5/84.
PRIa: .tlted dnce the interview with 511., BODMAN," she baliev••
ALBERT 'r'uJtND. andEV-ELYN B. '1'URNEJ\ siqned the UnCl.vie in
h.r pre••nce, although at the time of the interview, she atated
ahe 414 net recallthdr doin'i 10. PRICE stated ahe recalls
specifically votinq for a REECE E. BttLINGSLY an~ on.oth.~
individual whom she could not recall. ~ith th~•• alterations
in the rD~J02. PRICE was placed under oath. and .wore the report
to be truthful, accurate, and complete.
~''''
I, DEr, , 7 >it\ll-
,J
_-"'"""r"i"o",".,-,A"'"."."".,.~ ••• Mob~le S6C-2lS~1
."S~A:...:L"'"ND~A::..:C".-,T='D=M~P"S"06:=~\,- -,L~C~T"I=.,,1"llt''CI.,.. ~:-....:1~2~/,,1~3~18~4,- _ _
"'~'
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"'_""_'''''' .. .' ••'Ift•••,."
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452
Al'PMIX J
IN TEE ONI'rEtl STA'l'ES tlISTltIC'r COURT

roR Tllll
SOO'rHERN DIStIl.IC'l' OF A.toUAMA
l
UNITEC sorAns OF AMERICA, )
I
plaintiff, I
l
, VI. I
.l
At.BER'r T1JRNEJl, SpENcD aOGDE, . l
JR. lUI]) EVZ10YN ~, l
l
celen4aau. l
)
SECOIII) IlO'rION POR DISCOVERY lUI]) 'rO

COMPm. PRODDcnON or DOCIlMEII'rS FOR
IN CAIlEIlA INSPEC'l'ION
tlefen4ant Spencer aovue, 31'.., r ••pect:l!ully reque.ts

tb. CCurt ord•.1' the GOv.rnmen t to -p:04uCa for iDi;pactiOD
capyiDg' by 4.t'endant at a conveni.nt tim. and place the fol-"
lowiDgmat.r1al. whicb are 4i.cov.r~1. UDder .B~r~~~~~~
373 0.5. 83 (1963), and eDited Stat;, v. Agur., 427

(1976), bec.u'. ot their ur:ulpatory nature with revue! to
Counts 2-29 of the indictment and perhaps COunt 1,
upon the Governm-nt'. re.peD'. to the Ha;l.sra","
Ord.r dat.d May 24, 1985t
(1) All interview net•• ,
forms, or any oth.r oral or wri tt.n .tatement. Jail'::,
defined in Mr. Bogue'. criiinal Motion
.ry) refl.cting that 'ny perry County,
493
includinq those ,menticn.~.in the indictment in this

case and/or listed below, invited. consented to,
agreed to, a~thQrized, acquiesced in, acknowledged.
knew of and did not protest, knew of and remained
silent, or otherwise knew of ach.n9~ made in his
or her absentee ballot by Mr. Bogue or one of the
other defendants or any other person .ffiliate~.
·wi th the peeL ~

(-a) wUIJ:. Lee
Ib) Wi11bm·~. Wimes
Ie) Edward-Shelton
la) Mary ,D. Shelton
(0) Lor.tta Shelton
. If). Pannie'.Shelton
Ig) Mi.m& S118,1 ton
Ib) Cleophu. Sbelton

Ii) Matti. Shelton
tj l Hatti. Perry
Ik) . Will FuHor
(1). Henry'Jackson
1m) Jleane%'Gr••n
(nl, MOr9'an Barris
Ie) Fann!e D•. WUHams
Ip) Alma Pri.ce
(q) Pearl,,-Brown
1:1 Mary' Louise,pryor
(0) Ethel Ford
- 2 -
(t) Joe ltaMer
(0) Ezell Stephenl
(v) Mag9ie hller
(w) Arehle WCd
(xl Mw:phy he<!
(y) ADfela Hi:ee
(. ) Zayda E. a1hba
{aal LUUan roll..
(hhl ~y other ,person
(2) All Dot•• , memoranda, report., FBI ·302- fo~, or
any othu oral or
&r:1Y Perry COut.l.ty, Alabama voter," iac:lu41D9 tho••
meat1one4 in the indictm4Dt in this ca.. aad/o~
lilted. in item (ll above, was talked into making

persuaded by any means whatsoever to lD6ke. chang_
in hi' or ber absentee ballot by Mr. Boque or cne
of the o~r defendants or any other perIOD affil;:
i.ted with the PCCL.
(3) All grand jury t ••timony~r other written or 0:41
statements by the penon. d.lcri1:l8din 1tam (11
above Itetbe; that the person makinq the Itat.ment-~
or lome other periOD I

(a) invited, conlented to, aqree4to, authcri:~;
acqui••ce4 in, acknowled-gad, kne" of and 4.14

Dot protest, )me..., of and remained dlent, er
otherwi.e knew of a change made in hi, or
- 3 -
'455
&b•• ntee,b~liot by Hr. Bogue or-one of the

ether defendants or any other. person affiliated
w'ith the peCL,
(b) was talked into making or per~uad.d by any
meanswbatsoever to ,make, a change inbia or
her ~sent.e ballot by Mr. Bogue or one of the
other defendants or any' ether person affiliated
wi th the peCI.·.
Mr. H09Ue furtber requests that the Court ~rd.r the Gov-
, Irn;neD t to produce for in camera inspection by the Court all
"302 1 , " and any other FIll or other law enforcement
authority's reports on any person named in the indictment
above fer examination bY,the Court to determine
those r.por~s or any portion of them fit within requests
and (2) above.
Hr. ,Beque furt'ber reques ts tha t the Court order the Gov-'
in camera inspection by the Court all
grand jury testimony or other cral or written statements
person named in the indictmaAt and/or listed above for
amination ~y the Court to determine whether th~t testimony
r thOse statements fall within request (J) &bove.
In support of this Motion, Mr. Bogue states the follow-
1. In the Hay 24, 1985, Recommendation of the Magis-

Is noted that at a Hay 21, 1985, hearin9:
·4-
456
[T)heGovernment-ltated without qualification

that with respect to each of tho•• counts [two
through twenty-seven} the evidence and the theory
of the prosecution 11 that a netendant changed
a candidate a.18ctlon made by the voter and that
in each ca.. the change wal not authorized in
any fashion by tbe vot.r •••• The Mailltrate con-
strue. countl thr•• [two?} through ,,"waDty-seven
as beinq limited to :'CharliU '·(1) that the'Defen-
dants changed the.candidate ••1ection OD a ballot,
(2) that ,theta was no tormof acquie.cence or
consent to the change,by. tbe voter, (31 €hit the
alter.a ballots were placed in the ma:il, and (4)
that the alteraUens and lD&iUnil were in fur-~·
therance of the scheme to defraud described in
eOUDt two.
Recommendation ot the Magistrate at 4~S (emphasis added).

2. Onder the above theory of the ina..ictment, .any evi-
a.enee that any cbanqe in any absentee ballot was -aequi.scerd]-
in or -consented to ••• by the voter- or -was •• ~ authorized
in any fashion by the voter- would tend to defeat the Govern-
ment's ease a. to counts two throuqh twenty-seven and is
accordinqly highly exculpatory.
3. On information and belief, ,the.. requested. items con-
tain evidence of acquiescence, consent and authorization. See
sealed exhibits ee, xx, LL and MM.
4. Mr. Bogue has previously asked for these materials
in various ways. See Motion for Discovery (No. 85-25), Motion
for Discovery (NO. 85-14) (~, paraqraph 25), Motion to Com-
pel Discovery Ordered by the Court (dated May 30, 1985). As
the events laid out in the May 30 and May 31, 1985, Motions to,
Compel Ciscovary Ordered by the Court (Cr. 85-25 and 8S-14)
reflect, however, the Government has not yet produced any of
the above-requested items and takes the position that it need
not do .~ in advance of in camera inspection and an order by
the Court.
- 5
457
Wherefo~., the Co~t should order ~hat the requested

material. be,produced tar in camera inspection and that Brady
9 material in them be produced to ,-c1~f.ndants forthwith for inspec-
tion anel copying.
Respectfully submitted,
JTJLltJS LeVONNE CHAMBERS
C. LANI GUINIER
JAMES S; LIPMAN
llStb. F1QOr
99 Budson Street
New YQrk, New York 10013
1212) 219-1900
BY,
/ <i>ri,' " /)
4'2'" .IV!
1/ /,' ('
'i~4 /\
/' JAMESS. -10
f ! .
'A'l"1'ORNEYS FOR DE!'END~
SPlmC:U BOCTJ!:, Jl\.
C'ERTIP'ICAn OF SERVICE
I, James S. Liebman, hereby certify that copies of the

foregoing Second Motion for Discovery and to Compel Production
of Documents for In camera Inspection were served by Onited
States mail, first class postage prepaid, addressed to the
fol1o",ic91
Bon. E. T. Roli)on
Assistant Onited State. Attorney
Federal Building
Oated this 1st day of June,
/' JAMES S, LIEllMAN
- 6 -
458
III TIlE UNITED ~TATES DISTRICT COUIlT FOil TIlE

SOtmlEllN DISTIlICT OF ALABAMA
UNITED STATES OFAMEIlICA I

VB. § CIlIMINAL NO. $5-00014
ALBERT TURNER, et a1 I
RESPONSE TO MAGISTRATE'S DISCOVEIlY

OIlDEIl OF JUNE 1$. 19$5
Comes now the United States by and through the U. S.

Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama and responds to
the Discovery Order of the Magistrate dated June 18, 1985, as
follows:
1; The portion of the grand jury teStimony of
Rev. O. C. Dobynes which concerns the ballot of Mary Louis.
Pryor is included herewith.
2. the srand jury testimony of Earl Ford is
herewith.
3. The doctor for Reaner Green had written a lett,e;-.!
about her condition showing a diagnosis of "probable dementia,"
whieh would relate to umental incapacity or a sensory problem
affecting tne1l:1ory or ability to, recall" or testify, II pursuant
to, the l1agistraee l s Order. The letter is Bttached. We: have<
only two other letters from doctors, which relate only to
physical conditions. A third letter relates to Mattie Phillips
and states that she has been given an antidepressant due to
459
'. 2 •
it:.
"~~active depression for str.~s from the impending trial. The
'~'~ctor is W. Sterling Haynes.
4. Attached are statements given to the FBI by V9ters
~Whose ballots were handled by a defendant, filed at the Clerk's
~gf£ice, showing unchanged votes for non-PeCL candidates or where
·~ovOte was. cast.
i..
5. Attached are statements of voters whose ballots
t~ere altered but Who said any of the defendants could change it
or that they changed it themselves.
\\
6. Also attached is a copy of one statement by a
"~~an Who said she was not aware of any discussion of absentee
at the meeting at the church on September 3. 1984.
This is.our understanding of the Orders. entered by the
on June 18, 1985. and constitutes our co~liance
, J, B. SESSIONS, III
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
460
- 3'-
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
t hereby certify that a true and correct copy

for&going:response has been served upon coun8el£or all
by hand delivery this 19th day of June I 1985.
461
APPENDIXL
U,s. IlepartaIeoIOC lUlU..
lJnittd $1Il1U ..ttlOmlY

Sou/hml Dlltrlct 0/ Al4b1Zmll
JDJ UIdI.IUUr~
IofI 0f1b /Jt-.r I
JIHI/JI.~J",J
June: 14, 1985
wat'd Moote Julius LeVonn. Chambers

'au & Lawt'ence C. Lan! Guiaia:
Bellevue Ave. Jame. S. Liebman
rd Floor 99 Hud.on St., 16th Floor
khad, CA 94610 New York, NY 10013
Jaba L. CUIoll '
P.O. Ba. 5042
Haatgamery, AL ~6103
Mortoa Stavis
Center for Constitutional Rights
35401 853 Broadway, 14th Floor
New York, NY 10003
garet Carey
tel' for Constitutional Right.
HeTeer & Bailey, P.A •
••Bo. 1835
enville. HS 38701-1B35
REt U.S.A. Y. Albert Turner, et al
Cr. No. 85-00014, S.D •• At
r defense counsell
Thi. confirms our compliance with the Order of Magistrate SIms
ed June 5, 1985. The requested material I. attached. We have
~ided copies of a statement by Zayds Gibbs as the closest thing
",ve ,to 3rady material. We have previously responded to Number
and we 0 not have any additional information requested
~~by. We expect that this response will be distributed among
"d'efense coUoae 1. .
Sincerely,
J. B. SESSIONS, III
By (''l~
E. T. Rolison, Jr.
C
Assistant United States Attorney
;";Honorabll Emmett a. Cox
"462
51. ZAYDA EULA GIBBS, ~hompson street, Post Office BoX

645, Marion, Alabama, was advised of the identity' of the
interviewing agent and that .he.was being intervi.wed regardin
-In election' ~aw violation I mail'.fraud violation. " ., ",.:',
. .... ' , .' '" '. . .
GIBBS advised that she is a r.~l:~red p'racucal n,urs •...
:liec~ivin9 fl,<?c"ial Security bene~its.. . .
GIBBS advised that' she voted absentee ballot inth6
Perry county, ,Alabama election of September 4, 1984, as ,he
is physica,Hy unable to go to the voting p~l~s.. .
GIBBS 'advised that no one ipecifically request.~~~'j
voted absentee pallot, with the absent.e ballot b.ingr.c.iv~
by mai;.
GIBBS advised !:hat no one tried to influence
vote, and n~~ne tried to int~idate her, regarding ber
'.<
GIBBS was exhibited an affidavit of abs.ntee"vot:e:~t!,
envelope with,the name ZAYCA E.GISeS and identified the "_
as bei~9 in her handwriting. . ". . '
.'
GIBBS pbserved an official absentee
ballot dated September,. 4, 1984 which bad been
affidavit of absentee voter envelope, stating
is as she voted.
GUSS advised that she ret:urned the ballot: in the·"
envelope by mailini the envelope herself at' the Mario~, Alab
post cLUee.
, ,GIBBS is 'd~~cribed as a biack female; date o!,~irtff~
June 21, 1899, place ~f birth - Geor9ia; Bome ~elephop8,~o.
683-6870. .' .'"
. .
......lIlltt...... 9/26/84 11a,rion, Alabama ,~._...;.-.,....~
JFS/slm
Till' ."'~ , I..' n....."."''''...'*'11 ....' ..._.... cl~'I...,.II... 1"1I.11IlI~":~Ir.f'M'" .... II ....... III , ...,
"_"I " ..U 1 ,. U,.I,"I~~I'• • "'''.''\I.Vf,"'....,. > ' ,
463
III TilE UIIITED SThTES DISTRICT CDURT
FOR TUE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF JlLABlIllh
SOUTUERN DIVISION
* • • * * • • • * • • • * • • * •
GRhMO JURY TESTIMONY •
In tbe Natter otl •
•
ALnrmT TUntTEn, •
.SPS~CEn nOGUE, JR. •
• * • • * • • • • • • • * • • * * *
The Grand Jury testimony of

SP~~CEa ~OGUG, JR., taken
on the 25th day of January 1985.
~"'7""'""'~!I.\\l·~''''"o...J ....~
""'j'
.. ,s.~.iBS. P. ~. 80X
. . ,: ":',.--' "./ ......;;.J., ",.",
1271,
-..,,":
/I0BILE, hLhBAlth
.L,,~,:- .. . t,..
- " "
1
s
G w1 th any of thole that. I I ve shown you?
7 Ob, no. I ke~ps

..
them 1n a Be,arel:. place.
B Q Secret placG. Okay.
Nobody -knows where it is but myself
10 wit'e.
11 Q You don't think she tampered with

12 those?
Il no, no. She didn't tamper with them'.
14 %ayda'Gibbs. Do you k·now Ms. Gibbs?
lS ~1s·. zayda Gibbs?
Yeah. Zayda Gibbs. Yeah.
17 Q Tell me about that one. Did you handle

18 ballot 7
19 A Yeah. jI mailed it. I do knolt that.
20 o You mailed it?
21 A I IDay have nO,tarized it.
o Yes, you sure did.

23
465
51
a tlere there -any chanties on H8. G1bbe' ballot?

A Well, 1 need to leetbat, too.
Q All right. Do you :ellelDb.~ ,any' changes bdn9
Ilade on that? Do you remember any cbanges' ,being lIade
on that?
A It'. jUlt like I say. I handle 10 many, I
qan't recall about tho •• chang •• until ~ take. look.

o Okay.
A On.- nalon I ",ant to take. look, I want to
=ake lure it'. my lignature-and everytbing la there.
Q All tight. would it 8u<p<i •• you to know a
vote on that ballot bad b.,n changed ,that: bad been cast
for Reele Bl111n9s1e.? would that: surprise'you?

A Let me .1. what.you're talking about.
o All tight. Let t. look~ It •• y. two
eighty-nine. Are you 8.ylng for Bure you mailed that:

ballot?
A Yeah. Anytime you B•• that on 'there, you kno",
I mailed it. Ainlt no doUbt about tbat~
o I justvant to get all that straight. And

1~99 you wrote that up there as ber ~1rthday?
A That'l right.
And :you helped her vote?" \. ~ I '

',. '.
466
1 Letl's see what. you've qot. there.

2 Well, did you help bl·t,vote? . 1 1 m tryin-9
3 refresh ,!ourreCOllect.1on now. ~id yOIJ, help hU)

4 well, I don't try to remember '.all this .at
5 Q You're pretty 900d at it. After W8 sho#
6 the balloth you get real.good.
7 l\ I just want to make sun it;_ Illy work,'-
a Because sOllletimes somebody else can' come behind
Q. Okay. That's about the same color ink

10 this, though,isn't it?
11 Almost. One could be .•. litUe bit dark".,

12 shade~ . I c3on:' t know.
13 o "ell, now, since you've had a chan~e
14 at It, does that refresh your rec:ollection in I.ot

15 of way?
16 A Yeah. It refreshes me.
17 0 ~.ll me boW ..
16 A All riqht. Tha t 's one I convinced to 9:0
19 our slate, t.oo ..
10 Out. she had had a mark up there"by Reese

tl Billingslea?
!2 -1,\_ .
13 o And she also had One down'here'.'by Warte,n

467
S3
Kynard?
Yeah. I convinced her.

Q And ,you c~n~inc~~.her?
....
A That'. right. ','
Oltay_ , ~,
A GRAUD JUROR I ., '
Convincing a plIlinon to 'change their vote,

,
r'all mu'st have had a p:etty good thing· 901091 right?
THE WITNESS:
Yeah. We've bee~ working with these peo~le
ourselves since '62 for various t~in9~. And we have

never deceived them. So whenever we make a
representation, they almost go with us. 'Aiolt: no doubt
about it:.. The people in my community do.
II GnAnO JUROR:
E. T., can I ask one question?
tlR. ROLISONI
'tes.
A GRAND JUROR I
You said earlier that you put it around by

word of mouth who y l al1's slates were. But yet:. instead
you wait until the night they were voting and r'al1
changed their minds. I don't:, understand that.
;;468
Mr. PATRICK. Third, Mr. Chairman, the affidavit of Bobby Sing'
ton, which I gather has also been circulated to the committe
would ask that it be made a part of the record. . ,.
Senator DENTON. r am not familiar with that offhand, so if
have a copy? )
Mr. PATRICK. r have a copy and r can make available as'm
copies as you like, r have a copy now, which I can submit no
understood that it had been submitted in number to the staff.'
You are welcome to my copy, if you like. . .
Senator DENTON. Maybe, r could just glance at it.
I do not remember having seen this, perhaps the distributipR
as selective as the original, anonymous document which r lEiai'
about the night before the hearing and had been circUlat~\t
some time, to others, r understand. r.
Mr. PATRICK. Mr. Chairman, r know nothing about the cit
tion. r am offering it only because Mr. Singleton is not here
had been asked to put it before the committee formally to be Ii
of the record. ;
Senator DENTON. Without objection it shall be entered into
record. ' .
[The information follows:]
\
469
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF ALABAMA AFFIDAVIT
OF
COUNTY OF HALE BOBBY SINGLETON
Before me, Joseph T. Roy, Sr., a Notary,public in and for

State and County, personallyappearea Bobby singleton. who
fter being dUly sworn, deposes, and sALth on oath'as follows I
1. I am a black resident of Hale County Alabama. I was
in Hale County and except for the time that I attended
at Alabama State University in Montgomery Alabama I have
Hale county. In 1984 I ran for a poaition as a
on the Greensborac,Alabama City Council. The
election resulted in a runoff between the incumbent and
This was the first time that a black person had made it
a runoff in any Greensboro City ele~ion.
2. During the years that I have resided inHale County

have been many' instances where ....hites have used illegal
to prevent blacks from obtaining elected positions. During
election there ....ere numerous methods used to prevent me
obtaining a poSition o~ the Greensboro City Council.
3. Bill Kendrick. a black resident of Hale County, and I
this conduct to the Justice Department. the F.B.I. and
As has been the history in Hale and other Black
counties no action has been taken against these whites.
4. For the purposes of this affidavit I ....ill o~ly discuss.
yoter fraud by ....hites in the 1984 election ....hich I
e reported to federal officials. ~:--
5. I grew up in an area of Greensboro called the D8po~area.
a predominantly black area and the base of my support for

Ito office. The residents of this area had always voted in
Greensboro city elections, and in fact had voted in the 19S4
ral election. However, when I made it to the runoff against
white incumbent the city officials told a substantial number
.~ 'W1l
the black residents of the D.po~area that they would not be
470
allowed to vote, in the runoff bec69se the city had discovered

that part of the '.5o/~
Depo~area was actually not lnthe city. On the
•., G,1~
day of the runoff election police officers came out_ to the Depo~
community and parked their car at one of the, ent~ances to the
community. The police office,rs then told the residents that from
the point Where their car was parked back was not in city limits
and those residents, would not \:Ie allowed to vote '.
6. SOme of the residents ignored the officers and went to
the polls. When they arrived at the polls they were, not allOWed
to vote. ~hey were told by Sharon Davis, an election official,
that they were not residents of Greensboro and if they proceed to
vote a challenge ballot, a ballot for persons whose name does not
appear on the voter rolls but whO believes s/he is enti-tled to
vote, they would be guilty of a felony.
7. Another predominantly black area of Greensboro is the
Eastridge Community. This is a 50 unit housing complex built in
1980. The residents of this community were never told that they
wers. part of the city and could vote in city elections7 this
information was, deliberately withheld from them. City officials
allege that they had made it known to the Ea~tridge residents
CILtJ,b.. &'50 ~IL
that they could vote in city eflieia~Bt however, this is in
direct conflict with what the ~esidents informed me. I learned
that this community was in the city On the day of the runoff. It
was some",!,he(e between 2 and 3 0,' clock. I put a speak.er on the
outside of my car and parked outside of the Eastridge Community
where I announced over the speaker that the residents of
Eastridge were eligible to vote in the city election. Even after
we gOt some of the, people of the Eastridge Community, to go to tl1e
pollS they were told by polling officials that they could not
vote becaUSe their ~ames did not appe~r on the voter roles. Bill
Kendrick and I, informed Sharon Davis, an electio~ official, that
the Ea'stridge .residents .should be allowed to vote and she aaw t9
it that the ones coming in s.ubsequen.t should be allowed to vote.~,c;·:
The result ·9f. whi=l't",9CCU,t"J::,ed in.,'E.asu;,1..dg.ewas that... very., hw of the'

black residents actually voted.
8. There was evidence of, white verter traud'involving the
471
II•• of ab••nte. 'ballah!n the'19B4 runoff.- Ir.port.ed thh

,~ivld.nd. to the F.B.I. and-the Justice Department requesting that
~~.~ investigate in this are.. Aa haa be.n the history 1n Hale
Jd~unty the'whit. yoter fraudwent,uninve.tlgated. The evidence
f
~le as follow's'i
a. Whites illegaily .elicited absent.e'ballots from
resident. of' the ril.lraing home.
b. In the runoff the number of absentea ballot.
doubled and the number of ab.entee ballots
by whites in proportion to their population in the county
wae astronomical.
\, c. I received an anonymous letter stating that the

Mayor was aeen altering absentee ballot. from one of the
boxe ••
d. I have had problems with the city official. sending

ballot. t.o blacks who have applied for them ....ith my
assistan.ce.
9. On the day of election a person named Bill Daniel, a
;:,
:male, was positioned outside a polling place intimidating and
j~arra88ing'blaQ~ votere and poll watchers byl
a. Makfng blaQ~ polt .... or~er8 mov~ a certain distance
from the polling place and not requirin.g wQite poll wor~er.
to do the Ume.
b. Telling blac~s .s they were ta~ing persons into the
polling place that they could only take a limited number of
persons into the polls that they could assist in voting.
c. Walking back and forth in""front of the polling
place in an intimidating manner. He was eyeing blac~
persons and acting like he was writing things down about

them, just generally 9iving them the impression that he was
monitorin~ everything that they had done. Some of the poll
workers were very young and they became concerned that were
doing something that would get them in trOUble.
d. He was brought there and then taken away by the
Chief of Police.
472
Bill Kendrick approached him and ~sked him who re was.

that he was an election official. He then said that he was'a
federal observer. Bill Kendrick and I then asked to see
badge or some credentials. He said that he would not show.~s ..
anything. Kendrick and I then went to Sharon Davis, the -~:r~t!iii:

clerk and election official, to ver~fy that this person was a
federal Observer. Ms Davis informed us that it ~a8 all. r~ght
this man to be at the polls becaus~ he wa~ an official andq~d
not have to show us a badge or identification.

10. I reCeived information from Sh~nda washington, a ~l~ck\4;
female resident of Greensboro, that she overheard a conver~a~~~~i~~
between Bill Daniel ~nd the Mayor concerning Bill Daniel go~ng
out and impersonating a federal official.

11. Bill Kendrick and I reported the above~stated
information to Bill Roberts, who WtlS employed with t'he Vciti~9 ~t.
B·S .,',
Rights Section of the Justice Department and SpeCi\\(:;etft'tes~;!'.o:4.~:
Sue with the F.B.I. Bill and I also went and met ~attorney '\!Ii-~J;1::,,/
the Justice Department. I was told by special Agent Sue t~at.
information I was prOViding was not specific enough and al~A~t~~~
the complaints were not worthY,.of the in':'S8tigation

only talking about a small nu~ber of votes which would not h~ve
affected the outcome of the election. In fact, however" t~fi!
number of votes could have affected the outcome of the electiop"cji":
Sworn to and subscribed before me thiS'~ day of March,

1986.
473
r. PATRICK. Thank you.
xt is the brief of the United States in the case of the United
v. Howard Moore, which was filed in the U.S. Court of Ap-
for the 11th Circuit, and prepared by Mr. Sessions' office.
ather that that also has been circulated to the committee, and
Idask that that be made a part of the record at this time.
ator DENTON. Without objection, so ordered.
r. PATRICK. Similarly, the brief of the United States in the
tar of United States v. Spencer Hogue, also filed in the U.S.
rt of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, and prepared by Mr. Ses-
, office I would ask that that be made a part of the record.
nator DENTON. Without objection, so ordered.
r. PATRICK. And last, Mr. Chairman, my own prepared state-
t and affidavit which have previously been made available to
ommittee, I would ask that they be made a part of the record.
nator DENTON. Withoutobjection, so ordered.
e information follows:]
474
89.,-7504
IN" THE QNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS'
FOR THE ELEVENTH CIRCUrr
85-7504
UNITED STATES OF ANSRICA,

Appellee,
VB.
HOWARD HOOltE, JR..,

Appellant.
BRIEF OF THE APPELLEE
JtiRlSpiCTION
This Is an appeal tt'OIIl the United States District Court
the Southern District of Alabama.
PREFERENCE
This 'is an' appeal from a criminal conviction 1n
District"Court, and 1s therefore entitled to • preference as
Eleventh Circuit Rule 11, Appendix On.(1) (2). •
J. B. SESSIONS, III
E. T. ROLISON, J R . . ,
ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORN
ATTORNEYS FOR APPELLEE
ROON 311, U. S. COURTHOUSE
POST OFFICE DRAWER E
NOBILE, ALABAHA36601
475
STATEMENT REGARDING PREPEtENCE
Thfl 11 an appeal frClll. .. criminal conviction in the

-district court,and 1. therefore .ntltIed- to .. prefeunc. ,,-'per
Eleventh Circuit Rule ll,'Appendlx-One (.)(2).
STATEMENT REGARDING ,ORAL ARGUMENT
The AppdI:ee. United States of AlDer fee, lussuts that' thi:

{ . . Uti present~ caD b. detemined upOn th record and that 01'41
oItlllllent wouldi:lot h'D.fit' 'the panel.
STATEMENT OP TME ISSUES PRESENTED POR REVIEW
. I.
WETKER THE DISTRICT COURTS' EICERCISE 0' ITS SUMMARY COHTEMPT

POWER WAS AM ABUSE OP ITS DISCRETION.
STATEMENT OP THE CASE
I. CoutU of Proceed!""., and Dhpolftion Below and

"
."J:,," " ,
II. Statement of the Fact ••
On June 24, 1985, during the trill of United States v. Albert

Turner, It a1 in the United State. D,tserice Court, Judge Emmett R.
Cox stated frc:m the bench that h. found appellant, Howard Hoou,
Jr., .ttorne, for defend.nt Albert Turner, Bunt,: of criminal
contempt. (R.3-66).
At that elm, Jud'g, Cox .tatedthat he would uk .nother Judge
to handle the cont_pt hearing. (13.""66).•
On June 25, 1985, JudIe Cox denied appellant', oul IIIOtion to
re.clnd t~. adjudlcltloo. (RJ-67/BO) •
.00 Jul,. 8. 1985·, JudIe Cox m.de the certification required by
Federal luI.. of Criminal Procedure P. 42(.) .nd requa'ted the
."ilnmeot of .nother judie to fix puni,bment. (11-1/3).
63-867 0 - 87 - 16
476
On Jut, 25, 1985" appellant' filed hiS motion for 1'.conl1d.1'-,','

etlon.
By Memorandum Opinion and Order, Judge Cox gtanted the -UtO:~:l0
for reconsideration, but refused to rescind or modify hI. July"';

1985. O1:det.
The case was assigned to Judge W. B.
the position that he had no authority to con.lder
appellant WI' properly convicted of contempt. (R2-3/4).
After allocutIon, Db July 26, 1985, Judg'" Ha.nd
appellant $500, and stayed execution pending appeal.
On July 26.t,'1985"appe11ant fIled his notice of appeal.
'" " ,
The Underlyln's 'Criminal Trial
.
Albut TUt'ner, Ey'e1yn Turner, and ,Spencer Hogul, Jr.
the tr lal judge sUIIllI1ar 11, found

.
trial for conspIracy, mail fraud and voting more than oncl,
Attorney Howard
aontompt of aoutt. (R3-66).
During pretrial proceedings the defendanta moved
the ease on the grounds 0'£ selective pro'secution.
denled the defendant's motions and at levetal stages
trial and tdal, inltructe;d the defen.e a.ttotrtey."Dot, to'
lelectivi prosecution Into the case. (RI-I). (13-69).
The ttlal judge in his MemorandllD Opiaion and Order
his reason for £lading Attorney Howard Hoore, Jr. 'gUIlty
tempt, (Ill-l),
Iii. Scope of Review
Whether the District Court', exerci.e of its

power was an abuse of its discretion.
',I
477
STATEMENT 'REGARDING JURISDICTION

ThIs .is an appeal ·from 8 ~lnal .judgment of the district
c.outt'in 8 "
criminal c.8,se,•. The jurisd~ct!on of thh Court h
Invoked under 28 U.S.C. 1291.
SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT

The District Coute', exercIse eEtts slIDmar)' contempt power
'::1' tevie'wed for""an ~buse of dIacretion.
In this case -C:'he court chosetopunilh appellant. pursuant: to
Rules of Cr!mlnalPtocedu.re 42(a) rather than under
Rules of Criminal Procedure 42(b).
The judge ruled that -the contempt 0'£ couttby Attorney Moore
CO!IIlll! tted in the "actual presence of the Cour t." The judge
tha~ exlgent circumstances required an immediate
of c,rlmlnalcon'tf!L!lpt In order to punish the offender for
iis m·!sconduct·· and to deter that kind 'ofconduct' dur'ing the trial,
further -found that immediate punis'hment was not
Based on the entire record' in thIs ease, it is char that the
·Jd,judge: did odt abusehts dlsc'retionin summarily finding the

contempt.
ARGUMENT
ISSUE I
E DISTRICT COURT' DID NOT ABUSE as. DISCRETION' IN FINDING

PELLANT GUILTY OF CONTEMPT.
The standard of rev!ew for th'h 'Court 1& whether the trill
r~ abused its discretion in finding the appellant in contempt.
It Is cleat: from the record that the contempt was CCXDmi tted
-',the presenee of the court. United Stat.. v. BaldwJn, 770 F.2d
478
1550 (11th CI•• 1985). Hatta. of'H.athcock, 696 F.2d 1362 (11th
Clr.1983).
If the contempt was caamitted In the precene. of the ,t'rl~!:,1
court then the proper procedure, 1£ trlal coutt desires, wou1'ci.' '6:•.,.
to proceed under Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 42(.) as was
done by Judge Cox. United States v. Lowery, 733 F.2d 441
CI•• 1984).
Judge Cox stated In the' -record that he had never -found
other attorney in, contempt of his court. (R3-70).
Judge Cox ente'ted an ·orde-r stating the exact reason
had found the defendant In contempt. (Rt-I).
The tr!at j'udge must have the powet to summat'11y hold
individual in ~ontempt Ot dlsordet' and disruption will'rut_fiche'
court room.
The trial COUtt had 'warned· all lawyers at the stu't.
trial that the l11U8 of ulective prosecution was oo,t
presented or 8u.ued .to the,' ju'ry. The tr!al judge
appellant had violated his ot'det'. The ~t'1al judge
tence appellant but left that ~o another judge.
Judge W. B. Hand sentenced the eppellant to
and the judgment of Judge Cox and Judge Hand sbould not,
tUt'ned.
479
'CONCLUSION
For the foregoing reasons, it is submitted that the

"
judgments of convlctton are due to be aff1tmed"
RespectfuIIy~submittedt
J. 8. SESSIONS, III
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY,
E~:'('~ (L-
ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
ATTORNEYS FOR APPELLEE
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
1 hereby cereify that a true and correct copy of the

foregoing Brief of the Appellee has been served upon Mr. Horton
Stav!., Attorney for Appellant, by placing same 1n the United
States Mail, postage prepaid, properly addressed to Center for
Constitutional Rights, 853 Broadway, 14th Floor, New York, New
York 10003, 'his) Y day of February, 1986.
&I~l
E. f .. RoLfSON, JR. .
ASSISTANT,UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
480
IN TijE UNITEO STATF,S CmIRT OF APPEALS

FOR TNE ELEVENTH CIRr.n IT
A\.?118
nNITEO STATF,S OF AMERICA,

ApDel tee,
vs.
~PRNCER HOl7Ul, JR.,
Appellant.
ARIEF OF TijR APPELLEE
Jl1RISOICTION
thIs 15 an appeal from th., Holter! States Dlstt iet
the Routhern Oistt'lct of Alabama.
PREPEF,F,NC..
This .. opeal Is entitled to prefnence In pl'ocel'>sln~ lin·
rllsposlc(on Dursusnt to Rule 11 nf the t'ull!s of this C::out't
section (8)(1.) of ApPenrllx One to the rules.
J. R. SESSIONS, ill
IHHTEn STAT1i:S ATTOR-NT.\'
E. T. ROLISON, JR.
ASSISTANT liN IT EO STATES
ATTORNEYS FOR APpaLLEE
ROOM 311, 11. S. COURTHOnSF.
POST OPFICE ORAWER E
MOBILE, ALARAHA 36601
481
S1A1F.MEij1 OF TME ISSUES PRESEijTEO ROR REV!1-l'
ETM1-R TMF.
OOITERijMEij1 SHOULO BE COLLA1ERALLY F.<TOPPEO RROM
nI::F!N'l'lANT VOR. nl\~TRnCTION Oil' .JUSTle'll; A'TF.R TliF.
'ROS!CJ"ITtN'r. TRF.
DEFEijDAHT HAS RF.!ij Ar.OUl1nn !ij A PRIOR TRIAL OF r.ONSPIRAr.y. MAIL
FRAUD AND vOTINa MORE TMAN ONCE.
~taeement of Facts
r,ourse of Proceerlfn2s and DisDositinn Below
In .lanuny of lQA5, Albert Turner, Evelvn Turner anc1 ~pencet'
.Jr. were Inrflcted on chu,Ries of conspiracy, man fraud, and

mot' a than once. t1niterll~tates v. Turner. lit a1, IHstr let
In ~Iarch of lqR5 Spencer Ro~ue, Jr. was indicteli by the ~t'anrl
on one Count of obstt'uctlon of 1ustlce. !Jolted ~l:ates v.

,0 ue, DIstrIct Court No. C~. 85-nno2~.
In Apt'll lqR5 the Unlted States Aetorney filed a motion for

for trial of United ~t:8tes Y. Alhert rut'net', lit al,
r.R. R~-00014 and Unlt8d States v. ~pencer
f'Jlstr let Court ~o. CR. 85-0001:5. (Rl-2~).
In Hav HA5 Spencet ROR;ue Flleri a memotanriurn in opposItlon to

lofted Stl'll:.es Attotnev's motIon for consoUrlatlon of rTniteQ States
• Alhett Turnet et aI, Disttlct Court No. ~R. A5 ..0n014 anti
'Ioited States v. Spencer ROll:ue, Oist'dct Court No. CR. ~S-Ofln25.
Jll-See Memorandu'll tiateri MaV 1"S, lCj~5 filer! bv appellant).
tn .June lqA'l JuoR;e r.ox antered an order nenvln~ !lnit·erl States
f.or consolIdation. nn .. 41).
In Julv lqAS Spencer HOl'l;ue, ,Jr., A.lbert Turner and F,velvn
6rner were founrl I10t .'!juflty in United'States v. Athert Turner', et
, "lstrlct Court No. C~. R5-0nOl4.
In [lofted States v. Albert Turner, et aI, 01strlcI: Court No.
482
r.R. RIj.On014, !ipeneer lfo~ue, Jr. was chat'~e<1 in r:ount :'.4 with a
lubstantlve count of malt fraud Lillian 'FulleL, a wltnr.ss In
that .c..e, is expec:ted to be a witness av;alnsl: the rl.fendant:<
In' .T1nited State. v.' Spencer Hogue, District Court ~o. A'i:'OOo-,~,:5,
:};J
(obstruction of 1uI'tlce).
On Jut., 31, 198') Spencer "!Ollju., .'r. ll1ove<l to rl15lt1iss rlnlted
Reacts v. ~oencet' 1=I05U8. Jr., Distt'lc:t r.ourt: No. r.R..
undet the noubt ••Jeopardy Clause In that the I';ovetnrnent shouldb.
collaterall, estop.p!'!t1 from attemptln~ to prove a fact
that: had heen tesolved favorahle In the previous Case •
•Tutl'Re r.ox summar1l., denied the defendantls motion to
hased on the nouble JeoDardy Clause. Rl~~q).
Rpenc:er J{olljue, .Tr. 'Immediately appeal1ed on

Abney Y. IInlted State., 411 U.S. 611 (1977). (RI-741.
STATEMENT REGARDINr. JITllI~DICTION
ThIs 15 an 8Dpeat frOlll the lienial of Mr. Ho~ue' s

dismiss on double .1eopndy ~t'ounds. The
.hear thIs appeal under the collateral order exception to
UHI. Abne, Y. United State., 431 U.S. 651 (tQ77).
SIlMMARY OF T,E.ARCIlMRNT
The Double Jeoparrlv clause protects e
,
luccessive tlrosecutlOns for the lame crime.
In cr iminal case' the doctdne of cnllatet81
corotlar, of the nouhla Jeopardy Clause.
The doctrine of collateral estoppel requires
criminal chu,ll;u a~ainst an individual only If, In order to
those char~ .. , Rovernraent must teU t {!iliac. an issue of .,ul "
fact that necessarily was resolved In f~Yor of the def.nda~t
prevIous t'l'lall a crucial llllue Is whethel'

have ~rounrlerl its verdict upon aln issue othe·t _..than
defendant I.tks to foreclose from consideration.
483
ThIs Cout't has Islet· that on a Clairll of Oouhle Jeop.IIrdy based

collateral estoppel two inquiries must be ma~el
ll'Flr5t, what' facts were necessarily determined in the

fLut lawsuH.... 'iecond, has- the Rovernlllent 1n a
sunsequent trIal tried to relltl~8te facts necessarily
esr:ab.lished 8l1;81nst Jt in,thef-!rsttr,fa1.?"
cfefenriant In trotted· States ·v, Albert TU1'081', et .Ill,

Court r.R. R5-00014, Went to tt'lal on Ch8t'i~eS of
ft'8Ud, and Yotln~ lUore than once.
The erial iud~e instructed en•.tut'Y on the etemenes of each
The trJal ,1uci'~e did not instruct the Wry on the etements
to convict the defendant of obstructJn~ tustfce
1503, therefore the defendant could not havi b ••n in

unrler 18 D,S.C. 1501.
~ The tury could haYe reached ttl dec:lsfon to acquit: Spencer

ogue without resolYin~ any of the issues necessny to convict hIm
obstructing .1ulitice.
The defendant should not: he allowed to escape prosecut ion
the doctrine of c'olltterl1 estoppel in a case where the
"Q~~rnment ftled' a lIto"tion for consoUdation of c~use:s" and the
'lendant's opposition motion was p;ranted hy the trial court.
ARGUMENT
ISSUE I
GO\l1!RNMJ!NT SHOULD NOT HE COLI.ATERALLY ESTOPPED PROM

OSECUTING THE DEFENDANT FOR OBSTRUCTION OP JUSTICE APTER THE
FEliDANT HAS RUN ACQIIITTRD ON CHARGRS OF CONSPIRACY, MAIL PRAUD
,D VOTING MORE THAN ONCE.
The Double Jeopardy Claus.8 protects a person a.~alnstsuc.
i,S~,y.prosec:utions for the same crime. United States v. SmIth,

I ,; I
F.2~ 1161 (11th Clr. ,198~). United States .y'. ~U!J5(.t!o, .754
484
F .2d 927 (l985). In criminal c.... the doctrine o!

estoppel Is a corollary of the Double Jeopardy Clause.
The doctrine of coLlateral estoppel tequires dismissal'
criminal char"es against an individual only if, in order to prb*,
those charges, the. govern:aent must r.Uth~-8,ta an issue of
fact that necessarily was resolved in favor of the defendant4h{
previous trial; a ct'uchl issue Is whether a rational .1ury C'
,'""
have It'ounrled tts verdict upon an issue other than that whIch
defendant seeks to foreclose from consIderatIon. Un1ited " ':;""
Whlt.ker, 702 F.2d 901 (11th Clr. 1983).
The lurv In UnIted ~tates v. Albert Turner, et lat t
Court No. t:R.. 85 ..00014 (conspIracy, mall fraud,
than once) could ~ave RtOunderf its verdict on
theorIes without co~slderlng the testimony of LIllIan Fuller.
"/...;\i
. The only facts determIner! by the lury In UnIted State.'
Albert Turner. et aI, OhtrIct Court No. CR. 85.00014
the defenc1ants were not guilty. of conspIracy, mall
Yottn~ more than once.
: The .lury in United States v. 'Alb~rt Turnet' , et at,
C~urt No. CR. 85-00014 was never instructed on the
U.S.C. 1501, ob.tructlon of 1u.tlce.
The Issu8 in thlt csse is whethet
stTueterl .1ustice, sntt the ultimate issue of fact decided
former trial was that he was not ~uilty oF. condpiracy, mail
or yotin. more than once.
The Government Etlerl a motion to consollttate this ea.,~,'
the fomer case and the defendant ob.,ected snli his ob1ei ct"
~rantetl.
If tbe' cieEendant's Hotion to Dismiss (base~ on

Jeopardy Clause) Is ~ranted by thIs court, then
have escaped prosecutIon on this charge (obstructIon o'f
and in ,Hact the former .1ury (thoulI;h not Instructed on
ment of the offense) will have acquitted him.
48B
CONCLUSION
I' ,
Fot the fore~olng reasons, it is subm!r=ted that the
order entered by the court: to deny defendant's Hotlon to O!gmlss
based on the Double Jeopardy Clause should 'be affirmed.
J. B. SESSIONS, III
(r~~
1 hereby cnt! £1 that 8' tt'ue and correct cOP:V of the

fore~oln~ Br lef of the AQpellee has been serverl upon 1':. Lan!
Guinier and Deval L. 'Patrick, ~9 HUds~n jStreet" 15th Floor, New
l
York, New York 10013, Attotneys for App e.1hnt, by placing same
in the United States Mail, post8~e prepaid, properly adrfressed,
this 13th day of February, 19B6.
486
Statement of
Deval L. Patrick
NAACP Legal Defens. and Eduoational Fund, Inc.
My name 1s Daval L. Patrick. I am an Assistant CoUns.l

the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc. in New
city. I participated in the defense of Spencer Hogue, Jr. ",
"
against oherg-es of conspiracy, mail fraud and votinq-more-tha~
once in the United State. District Court tor the Southern

Diatrlct of Alabama for .everal week_ in eh8 early summer of
1985. 'l'heUnitect states Attorney for the Southern District, Jeff
D.- Sessions, III, conducted the prosecution in that Cllse.
view of my experience with Hr. S••• ions in that clla., I wish
bring four issues to the Committe.'. attention in connection
lts review of hi. suitability to~ the federal bench:
li.n.t: t &l though all of the circWllstances germane to the
aros. and allot' the witnesses who would t.sit'y resided near,
Selma, Alabama, Mr. Sessions' offioe attempted to have this case r
",
:';,-.f"
tried in Mobile, 80me 103 mile. distant. Though the oourt
Ultimately ~ecid.d to hold the trial in selma, it agreed ~- ~rth
the government's acquiescence ~ ... to empanill the jury in ·Mobil.
and bu. the jury to Selma for trial. The 80le di.cer~.ilb~.¥;:
ditference between MobIle and Selma was that the concentrationolr
blaok oitizens in 'the jury pool drawn trom Mobile
considerably l ••s than it would have been in Selma.
~, in the cour•• ot the trial the qovern:ment
.everal ot' its own witnes.ea, in an apparent attempt to
ca.e through neliative interenoes. At one point, Mr.
aasistant examined a government witne••
jury with a legal pad with the words "WIT~SS LIES" or "LYING"
insoribed in large, clearly legible red letters upon it.
the incident W8lll brought to the court '8 attention, the
instructed the government to oea.e. Hr. Sea8iens did ff
reprimand hi. assistant.
:b.1.n\, the governmen.t proceetfed on several count. ega~_
Mr. Hoque that were 8upported by no evidenoe. ot the tw~ntYh':f
counts of mail freud brought against Hr. Hoque, twenty

487
dismisa.d at the close: of the government '.' case on the ground

that Mr. Sessions had produced no evidenoe'whatsoever inculpating
against Mr. Hogue.
~. at'terthe jury aoquitted Hr. Hoque of all oharqes,
Mr. Sesslona' office attempted to proceed upon e second
in4ictaent ba.ed upon 80me of the very a.mB tact. r ••olved 1n Mr.
Hogue's favor in the previous trial. That question 1s now on
appeal before the United states District Court of Appeals for the
Eleventh Circuit,. Mr. Sesdons' oftice filed a brief which
consisted of nothing more than nine conolusory sentences of
argument on the merits. In 'my opinion, the brief was. entirely
useless in narrowing and clarifying the issues, if not frivolous.
These are 80me of the issue. that arise from my experience
litig&tinq ag'ainet Hr. Sessions, and that cause :me to question
whether he has the.temperament 1 jUdqment and fairness appropriate
fer a federal jUdqe.
488
IN THE UNITE~STATES SENATE

In the Matter of the Nomination of

JEFFERSON BEAUREGARD SESSIONS, III
for Appointment to the United States District
Court for the Southern District of Alabama
AFFIDAVIT OF OEVAL L. PATRICK
STATE OF NEW YORK

ss.:
COUNTY OF NEW VORl<
I, OEVAL L. PATRICK, being duly sworn, depose and say as

follows I
L I am a staff attorney at the NAACP Legal Defense and

Educational Fund, Inc. in New York. City, a position I have held
since 1983. My practice at the Legal Defense Fund has primarily
involved federal constitutional issues arising out of the
criminal justice context.
2. Before joining the Fund, I served for one year as law
elerk to a circui t judge on the Un! ted States .court of Appeals
lor the Ninth Circuit (~Appendix A). Between that experience
and my present position, I would estimate that I have either
reviewed or directly participated in well over SO criminal
cases.
3. In the Spring of 1985, the Legal Defense Fund defend-

;-:;.(1;;
ed Spencer Hogue, Jr. in a trial in federal court in the
Southern District of Alabama. Mr. Hogue was charged with
conspiracy, mail fraud and voting-more-than-once as a conse-
quence of his longstanding practice of helping others in his
community to fill out their absentee ballots. I participate~,
in that defense. Mr. Sessions, with two of his assistants,

represented the government.
4. Mr. Sessions apparently sought to prove his case
mainly by negative inference. For example. the government read
into evidence Mr. Hogue's exculpatory Grand Jury testimony,
489
only-to argue in closipg that he was lying. In addition, the

government repeatedly called witnesses to the stand only_ to
impeach their testimony during its own examination.
~, Testimony of Murphy Reed.) At one point, the government I B
insinuations matured into an overt accusation I while question-
ing one of the government's witnesses, Mr. Sessions' assistan,t
inscribed the words "WITNESS LIES"..or "LYING" in large red
letters across the top of her legal pad and held i t within plain
view of the jury. (See Trial Transcript at 206, 207. ) Indeed,
the message was so plain that a spectator standing near the
'~j
courtroom entrance -- not far from where Mr. Sessions wso
standing -_. could clearly make out the terms I it was the
spectator who brought it to the attention of defense counsel and
the court. (Trial Transcript at 207.)
Although the court admonished the assistant, Mr. Sessions
did not himself reprimand her.
5. The government had a nurse in fUll dress, with a
stethoscope, accompany most of it first several witnesses to
the witness ,stand, though it made no showing that it was medi-
cally necessary to do so. I believe the government's sugges-
tion that it had the witnesses' best interests in mind was
disingenuous. For despite the medical frailty of most of the
government' w!tne'sses, notwithstanding the fact that Selma was
far more convenient a venue for !ll of its witnesses, Mr.
Sessions attempted to have his case tried in Mobile, some 183
miles distant from ,where the relevant facts Elvolved and all the
relevant witnesses resided. Apart from the obvious, but incon-
sequential convenience of a Mobile trial for Mr. Sessions and
his staff, the only discernible-difference between, Mobile and
Selma is that the concentration of black citizens in the Mobile
jury pool was normally considerably less.
6. Several counts in the ind~tment against Mr. Hogue
were supported by no evidence implicating Mr. Hogue. At the
close of the government' sease, 20 of the 26 mail fraud charges
against Mr. Hogue were dismissed for Mr. Sessions' failure to
present any evidence at all. Two more were dismissed because
490 /
the government's evidence was in~dequate. Nevertheless, the

government represented to defense counsel until the very end of
its case that it intended to prove all of the counts alleged
against Mr~ Hogue.
7. Among the aspects of this case that·were most trou-
bling to me was the government's a11eg1ng, as part of the
conspiracy charge, several tacts that were not on~y lawful, but
constitutionally protected. The government insinuated wrong-
fulness in the fact that the Perry County Civic League "was a
civic Association "0' the principal purpose of which was to
foster a unitary society of citizens of all races working
together for the common good", that Mr. Hogue was a member of
the Civic League, that the C~vic League "publicly endorsed
candidates running for the nomination of the Democratic Party" J
that Mr. Hogue "approach[ed) citizens of Perry county and
urge[d) said citizens to cast absentee ballots", that. he "did
assist ••• citizens of Perry County to submit •.• applications
for absentee ballots" 1 that ,he helped the voter'vote his or her
ballot, advocated that he or she vote it in favor of the
candidates endorsed by the civic League and mailed the ballotl
and that Mr. Hogue attended a meeting of the civic League at the
Baptist Academy,School in Marion, Alabama -- "(a)ll in viola-
tion of Section 371 of Title lB, United States code.""(~
Indictment at 1-9.) On their hc'e, these facts reflect nothing:

more than common political activity, activity critical to the
vitality of democracy and thus protected by the First Amend-
ment.
B. After the jury returned its verdict acquitting Mr.
Hogue of all charges, Mr. Sessions announc'ed that he would prell'S
another charge Against Hoque based on some of the same facts
found in his favor in the first trial. I appealed to the Court
\
~-
491
of Appea1s and filed 11 b~ief ar9uiJ?9 that the second prOl1ecut!.on

constituted a violation of the Double Jeopardy Clause. In Mr.
Sessionll' apPl1llate brief, his argument on the merits consists
of 9 summary sentences. It borders on the frivolous.
9. In view of the above, I do believe that Mr. Sessione
poesesses ne·ither the professional acumen nor the judicial
temperament necesaary and appropriate to the federal bench.
Under penalty of perjury,
Q~t~k DEVAL't. PATR K

. me this ...!l:.- day of March, 1986.
7~
My commission expire$ _
M,..oolo,,,,,,,,, .s..,-7·....-.-
I,l~ 1""wf:S",~ •• ~."".... 0 ...... If. ,..., ~I 'l"
1'1... iterg-';....
').'f'
~",."I't'LoI ,", "'~:>J G", ~~ I
.......--J .. -I-t ; , . " ./.

• '""'</.. ~ HM./; ,-p. 1~>1:
492
APPENDIX A
OfIval L.Patrick
NAACP Le'la1 Dehn.e and BducaUonal 'und, Inc.
n Kudaon Stuet
New York, New York lOOn
(U21 2U~l!lOO
flAll.VA.!Ul LAW SCHOOL CAMBRIpC;E, ":lA-

J,D., June 1982. Preddent of Ul9al Aid Buraall.
WiMlIr ot upper round MIn Koot Court C1;lillplltition.
1974-78 HIUWAll.D COLLEGE ,CAMBRIDGE. MA
:~~' ";:i~:~dti t;~::u;:~8. Me;:~e~~r~~:~e;n a:~~;iah
COlMlittee (1!I15.76l, Tunuur (1!I76~771, Chainan
(1977-781. MelllNr of phillipa Brook' Bou'e AIlIOC.
'inancial Board (1!I77~181. Dunatn Iloule aquash tum.
Law Cluk'hip
Law Clllrk for Judge Staphen Reinhardt, united Statel Court
of Appeala for the Ninth Circuit.
Work £x:perienee
NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FOND NEWYOIUC, NY
Statf attorney involved in genenl civil ri9hta
practice, particularly in capital punhhll'lent and
voting rightl cuell.
S\1IlIIlIer, RELLER, EIUl.HAN, W'BITE Ii MCAULIFFE: SAN FJlANCISCO, CA
1981
:n~i:df~:r~:~~~v;~a~:il~~a~l;;:l:~~t~~ ;~:t:;:~inee.
in county jall aYlltelll.
S\J.lI\IIler, SQUIRE, SANDERS Ii DEMPSEY WASBINGTON, DC
1961 A law chrk.hip in gene1'4l litigation and corporate
mattera.
Summer, WINSTON'Ii STRAWN CBICAGO, IL
1980 Ala'" clerkllhlp in general domellUc and lnternational
corporate matter•• a. wllll a. axt.na1va involv_nt -for
.tate prlloner. in a largll cla.. action brou9h~ lIn4er
the hdenl Civil Rightl Act.
SUMera, FIRST NA'rIONAL BANp,: O;F BOS. BOSTON, MA
1977~79 An internllhip with the Bank'i Mid~Eut/Afdcll. Group.
Summerl!l, CHEMICAL BANI( NEW YOU, NY

1975~16
~~u~h;:;~'~;fll. i( l~i~ ~~i~~;t~~;;;~a (1975) .l'Id
Other Activitie.
~ru.tee ot Milton Academy, Milton, JIla.sachulett. (198S~ 1I Member ot
lIeleotion committee tor the Michlel Clark ll.ockefellllr Memorial Travd1l.ng
Fellowlhip (l981~8S I.
Academic and Oth.r Konor.
National Merit Outstanding Ne'il'ro Commendltion (1974l. Harv4rd College
Dean', Liat 0974-181. Harvard Club of Chicago Schohr (197S}. R,Y.
Herrick Clan of 1916 ScholarshlpAward (19151. Lt. George C. Lee, Jr.
Memori41 Award (i9a-78}. Michael Clark Rockehller Memorial Travell1n9
Flllowlhip Awarc1 (1978-791 (workec1 fonel travelled in Eut and Welt AidcIl.
George S. Leilure Award for Excellence in Advocacy (l9811.
Personal· Backgrollnd
Born in Chicago, H1I.noh. Harriec1, "11th one child, Speal!; 'ome French.
Enjoy ralld1n9' horseback riding, la111.ng. IqulI...h. letter-writing, jau and
clauical music, thll thntre, the opera In"- cook1ll9.
Referllneu
On requelt.
493
Mr. PATRICK. Mr. Chairman, I have been here 3 days now, lind I
(suspect that these days are as long or longer for you as they have
~been for me and for everyone else who has suffered through what
~leems to be a really painstaking process.
',. I will stand by my statement and affidavit, as they are submit-
.:,''ted, and I would ask that you consider those and other materials .
'J.hat go to the question of the Perry County case, not as going to the
~question of whether that case ought to have been prosecuted, but
.eally how it was·prosecuted.
Because it is on the matter of how they were prosecuted, I think,
. that the information is material to the nominee's quality as a
"lawyer, and to his integrity as a public servant. And without fur-
;lher comment, I will take any questions and in the interest of time,
';waive any further. statement.
~. Senator DENTON. I do hot have any questions.
Senator Heflin?
Senator HEFLIN. I have nothing, Mr. Chairman.
Senator EAST. I have none, Mr. Chairman.
Reverend DOBYNES. Mr. Chairman.
Senator DENTON. Yes, Reverend.
, Reverend DOBYNES. Is it possible for me to read paragraph 6?
.j' Senator DENTON. Let me get your statement so that I can follow
fyou, is that what you are referring to in your statement?
i.! .. Reverend DOBYNES. Yes.
:.. Senator DENTON. I end up with paragraph 7 being the one where
;: it says, when I arrived at the Marion departure site.
r,. ,Reverend DOBYNES. That is the paragraph that I would like to
\:lf~ad.
;' Senator DENTON. All right, I think it is 7, sir.
,~.. Reverend DOBYNES (reading].
",)i,:;When I arrived at the Marion departure in earlr October, I saw a bus surrounded
i-by six Alabama State Troopers, three or four Marlon city policemen, about nine FBI
r~ents and four game wardens. It looked like an armed camp. The streets around
"'. he courthouse were blocked off. about eight officers stood on different corners, with
'ftheir guris ready to be drawn. I learned later that law enforcement officers Bur·
/rounded the,city while the buses were being loaded with witnesses. It was one oftha
tnost imposing chaotic scenes I have witnessed. Approximately 25 peo:ple, many of
'~bem in their seventies,. Mrs. Pearl Brown, in her eighties and even mneties, most
GAiJing and frightened, were loaded onto a bus under the watchful eye of more than
~~P: police officials.
•ii. Senator DENTON. Do you have any further changes you want to
" ake?
~;(, Reverend DOBYNES. No, sir.
it: Senator HEFLIN. Reverend Dobynes, if a pistol is in its holster, is
.:J:t ready to be drawn?
::. Reverend DOBYNES. Provided if you have the safety mechanism
'loose. In any event of a police official or anyone who is carrying a
;,pistol would 'fall, this pistol would stay there, but when the safety
"mechanism, then it is considered ready to be drawn.
i f Senator DENTON. Yes, sir, it is the work of an instant to flick the
'~t;,ap so that you can draw the gun and then you have to take posi-
ltjve action on a hammer action pistol to pull the trigger. It is not
>Iike a rifle, with a hair trigger or anything like that.
}/But that, perhaps, is not germane.
494
We have your changes sir, and I would like to excuse every..one.. ·
except Mr. Figures, at this p o i n t . .••·:;., .
And thank you for your testimony. . .;uKl
I wo~ld like to call Mr. Ed Vul.evich to the witness table.ij,!ll!j~
an Assistant U.S. attorney in Mobile, AL. . . '
Mr. Vulevich,. will you remain standing, so that I can swear ),'0).11'
Would you raise your right hand, sir? ,.;e,'; .'
Do you swear that the testimony that you will submit to:
hearing is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the trut
help rou, God?
[Witness answers in the affirmative.] ",
Senator DENTON. Please be seated. • .';.c.f
I do have questions but if you wish to make a statement,)~~
may do so, sir. , ' , ,;':~'~")
Mr. VULEVICH; Well, the only statement I care to make si"
that I came here on short notice. I read the morning papet;·:
certain allegations that were being made against Mr. Sessidli~·.
there is anything that I can try to do to combat those alleglitiQ
which I think are unfounded, that is why I am here."',,, ..
Senator DENTON. Could you identify yourself by full name;"ybu
position, and how long you have served in that position? "'''',,''
Mr. VULEVICH. My name is Edward John Vulevich, Jr., and 1.;',
assistant U.s. attorney, in the Southern District of Alabamaan~
have served in that capacity si,:!ce October of 1969. . . .,...;,i~;
Senator DENTON. Mr. VulevlCh, I understand that you have~£
lowed this hearing in the press, and have requested to testify? •....
Mr. VULEVICH. That is correct, s i r . > , J.'
Senator DENTON. You have expressed concern over sonie 0["
testimony before this subcommittee, which has been repo
would you tell the committee of your concerns? ... ,.,.•
Mr. VULEVICH. My concern is the tenor of the allegations'
the integrity of Mr. Sessions, his abilities, his qualifications, .te.t"
the important job that you are considering. .,
I know him to be a man of utmost integrity, of fairan4:,"
jud\lment, of total i~partiality, and I think it is a bum rap.'.
he IS accused otherwise. i-."
I have read statements attributed to Mr. Thomas Figur
were supposed to have been made by Mr. Sessions. I have',!n
this in the newspaper. I was in the office, the entire tilIlet'
Figures was there. Obviously, I did not hear every conve
that took place between the two, but I never saw any oPt.
duct on Mr. Sessions' part that he has been accused of, s\l.
trying to prohibit investigations. Mr. Sessions evaluatesa·e'
its merits and on its merits only. He has had to prosecute Ji'
and I know that it is hard but that has never entered intQ.,
he does his job and he does it right. .0'
Senator DENTON. Have you ever heard Mr. Sessions· or
else in the U.S. Attorney's Office in Mobile, refer to Mr. Fi
a boy, or a boy?
Mr. VULEVICH. No, sir; I have not.
Senator DENTON. Would you be surprised to lellrn it
without having made previous reference t.o it, in all of.';
tions, written and otherwise, he accused Mr. Session
number of occasions, calling him boy and havingassent!l'
495
was made in the presence of some others, two of whom we ha"e
received. He also accused Mr. E.T. Rolison, Jr., and Mr. Faure, now
:deceased, of calling him boy. We have received today, an affidavit
'from Mr. E.T. Rolison, Jr., denying that he ever referred to him in
a derogatory manner as a boy. We also have one from Ginny S.
Granade, who Mr. Figures testified was within hearing when he
was called boy by Mr. Sessions. And she says, "I have never heard
r. Sessions refer to Mr. Figures as boyar to call him by anything
other than his given name."
I thought that I heard you, Mr. Figures, mention Mr. Vulevich's
ame as a source of that epilation. Is that correct?
.. ·Mr. FIGURES. Senator, my recollection of my testimony is that at
the time that Mr. Sessions called me boy, he was standing in the
'doorway of Ms. Granade and that Ms. Granade and Mr. Rolison
'Were in the office. That was in response to a question as to who
auld have witnessed this statement.
I said that at that time and I stand by it, Senator. You next
sked me, subsequently asked me, who else called me boy in that
ffice?
And my recollection of my testimony is that Mr. Faure and Mr.
ulevich called me boy, and I stand by that testimony.
Mr. VULEVICH. Sir, I would love right now to categorically and
. mphatically deny that. I did not make any such reference to this
an.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Vulevich, yesterday Mr. Kimbrough in
nower to a question from me, and I will rely on whatever the
anscript said, but I asked him something to the effect, if Mr. Fig-
.es might be considered exceptionally racially sensitive, might
ve been or had some tendency to be overly touchy about that?
And his response was generally affirmative, but I will defer to
ator Heflin's memory or Senator'East. The only reason I men-
n that is I would like to ask you about that, whether having
tved under a number of administrations, you would characterize
r. Figures in any particular way, as to his personality or to his
ility to work with others, any special moodiness that might affect
s judgment or perhaps, even his job performance, anything in
at order, because his allegations are extremely material to the
l1gment of Mr. Sessions' reputation and deportment.
";Mr. VULEVICH. In my opinion, sir, he is racially sensitive. He car-
his feelings on his sleeve from what I observed in the office. He
. have considerable difficulty dealing with some investigative
~Iltsor agencies. For what reasons are best known to him. I
Quid say that he is a pretty good lawyer with a pretty bad atti-
'de problem. And that is the way he generally came across. His
I ability I have no question with, but his attitude, in my opin-
,was his main problem, getting along with people.
:enator DENTON. Were there any occasions with some adverse
elopment from his point of view, such as a Supreme Court
'illg of the day, or some development in the newspapers reflect-
Justice Department matters or any other thing that might
e touched him off? Did he ever become secretive or show that
had perhaps more suspicion than need be or any tendency
ard a persecution complex?
496
Mr. VULEVICH. He Was very much to himself. I would say that

maybe and I think that he had somewhat of a persecution comple~.
I might best describe it as the man in a football stadium. with
80,000 people but he thinks that when the team' huddles, they,'llf,il,
all talking about h i m . o t > '$
And in general that was my impression of his complex..,,,,·/;;!'!'
Senator DENTON. Are you aware of a statement attributed••toiM:u.·
Sessions, by Mr. Figures, to the effect that Mr. Sessions wishr
that he could decline all civil rights cases? .•. ",!11;
Mr.. VULEVICH. No, sir; I am not. I
Senator DENTON. Is there anything in Mr. Sessions' perform
that would lead you to believe that such an allegation was'
Mr. VULEVICH. Not at all, Senator. Mr,Sessions is an·aggr
prosecutor and lives up to the oath that he took in the perf9r
of his job as such.
Senator DENTON. Having served there for the numberof.a
trations that you did, and having your association with Mr•• ·.
ures, over a period of time, how would you have expected hi"
react if you had called him boy?
Mr. VULEVICH. Well, I tried to get to know Thomas.Figuresg)li
well when he first came there. I would not have called him boy;;f
the obvious reason that I know black people do not like to be call"
boy. The history behind it is such that it would be derogatory. ,,,..
I would imagine that he would have shown me that he,;,
bigger than I was in size, had I called him by that name.·.·,···
Senator DENTON. Do you have anything else that you would.
to offer? . .. ......• 0'.. ' •
. Maybe any opinion as to whether Mr. Figures is entirelY','
tive within the testimony, the nature of the testimony he
fered against the nomination and confirmation of Mr. Session:
Mr. VULEVICH. Only to say, sir, of course I did not co!Iie II
to try to do in Mr. Figures. I did come up here to try my best
that Mr. Sessions was not done in and I do not think that .Mi,.
ures' observations are totally objective. To my knowledge, . ,
sions put him in charge of civil rights actions, had confi
him, worked with him, worked with local authorities, an4!
know why he feels like he does. Obviously I do not. . .••
I do know Mr. Sessions has not conducted himselfinthe.,
described. That he has done nothing but conduct himself
manner in which he should and which he is sworn to do. ' .
Senator DENTON. Did you ever hear any reference to·th
famous Klan joke, and what do you know of the circu.mst
nature of that event? '. ......
Mr. VULEVICH. If that is the thing I read in the paper.. ab9
posedly a statement attributed to Mr. Sessions about J(1~
Klan or not disliking them--I never heard him make,
statement. He prosecuted one of the chiefs of the Klan in
know he has no use for them whatsoever.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Vulevich.
Senator Helfin.
Senator HEFLIN. I did not understand exactly. You
have been an assistant U.S. attorney since 1961?
Mr. VULEVICH. 1969.
497
Senator HEFLIN. And I understand you that you came on your
own after reading in the paper that you thought that Mr. Sessions
was getting a bum rap and so you paid for your own air ticket to
, Come up here?
Mr. VULEVICH. Yes, sir.
Senator HEFLIN. And you have come on your own, relative to de·
fending Mr. Sessions?
, Mr. VULEVICH. Yes, sir.
ii Senator DENTON. Sen,ator East.
:, Senator EAST, I have nothing.
" Senator DENTON. On balance, I think, Mr. Figures, I should offer
you an opportunity to say anything you wish regarding Mr. Yule·
~ch's testimony.
') Mr. FIGURES. Senator, the only thing that I can say is that I
sts:nd by my statements contained in my formal statement and I
•• nd by my testimony earlier given.
Senator DENTON. All right, thank you both, very much.
You are excused.
[The witnesses are excused.]
Senator DENTON. I have now to make a decision about the next
panel which was the favorable panel, which was to have balanced
day. It is late, they cannot stay for tomorrow in spite of the
t, that we have lost, of course, all of the electronic media, except
e radio that I know of. And we have some tired journalists: over
reo I have no choice since these witnesses stayed yesterday to
k the last panel to come forward.
Thank you, Mr. Figures, and thank you, Mr. Vulevich.
TATEMENTS OF HON. BRAXTON KITTRELL, JUDGE, 13TH JUDI·
CIAL CIRCUIT, MOBILE, AL: REV. BEN SAWADA, ASHLAND
,PLACE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH, MOBILE, AL: GEORGE
lIORN, MOBILE COUNTY REPUBLICAN EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE,
OBILE, AL; AND BOBBY EDDY, CHIEF INVESTIGATOR, DIS·
RICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, MOBILE, AL
Senator DENTON. Judge Braxton Kittrell will be first because he
," a l1ight. Next will be Bobby Eddy.
'This panel is the Honorable Braxton Kittrell, Judge, 13th Judi-
ai Circuit, Mobile, AL; Rev. Ben Sawada, Ashland Place, United
odist Cliurch, Mobile, AL: George Horn, Mobile County ;Re·
lIcan Executive Committee, Mobile, AL: and Bobby Eddy, chief
stigator, district attorney's office, Mobile, AL.
lease raise your right hands.
'0 you swear that the testimony that you will submit in this
, ring today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
truth, so help you God?
e witnesses answered in the affirmative.]
enator DENTON. Please be seated gentlemen.
, d we will take a 3-minuts: recess.
ereupon, a brief recess was taken.]
nator DENTON. The hearing will Come to order.
498
Senator Helfin, in view of the time constraints, Judge Kittrell
and Mr. Bobby Eddy would like simply to submit oral statements;
and not be subject to q u e s t i o n s . "
Judge Kittrell, will you go f i r s t ? " . " ! ) '
Judge KITTRELL. Mr. Chairman, and Senator Heflin, I appreciate
the opportunity to be here today. I am on a tight schedule arielI
am going to abbreviate my remarks. I just want to say that 1. hll.~~, .•
know,: Jeff Sessions for a number of years and he is aperapn;Ot,
the hIghest character and integrIty. I have n,everknawn J'll,l!iil't6."
make racial slurs or remarks, nor has any attorney or anyone ¢1~e
far that matter, ever reported to me that he has ever made s\i,I'J'!.
remarks other than what I have heard coming out of these proce,¢~,
ings. . .' , . ". _. '.':,rt'":!x>;:
Judge Sessions is not a racist. If I thought that he was I wO}l'll;li
not be here today supporting his nomination. Jeff Sessions is#o~,
insensitive to blacks. If he, in fact, had made the remarks wli'i~Jl
have been attributed to him, I !1m s.atisfied that. they ha'Ve!lP.~.
taken out of context, as Jeff SeSSIOns IS not that kmd ,of person,...l;il,'~',
has an excellent reputation and I urge you to confirm his nomi'fi!k.
·
t Ion. . ' 'J",
, , __,\'1"1.-':i,{-:
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, Judge Kittrell, I.··· n''',
that you have to run. . '. '
, We will have questions for you for the record, and we 'cali'"
them that way, at your leisure. . , , '
Mr. Bobby Eddy, I know that you are in a hurry too;' air
please' go ahead. ', ) ' ' . '
Mr. EDDY. Mr. Chairman, and Senator Heflin, I am B<\b.E
and I am the chief investigator for the district attorney'soffi
Mobile County, in Mobile, AL. I am here at the request of.
Denton's office to testify before this committee. I have beell"
enforcement for 19 years. I have investigated severalcas~s.
career,including several civil riljhts cases; this includes th
bombing at the 16th Street BaptIst ChurCh in Birmingham,
1963. And the bombing conviction of J.B. Stoner, an aVoWe.d;
for bombing a black church in Birmingham in 1958. ,"'}}
I came to know Mr. Jeff Sessions during my involvel11E'.
the Michael Donald case and this was a crime committed b
, Knowles and Henry Hayes, members of the. Klu ~lu"
Mobile, ,AL. They took Michael Donald and later hunghi
tree across from Henry Hayes' apartment. Tiger Knowl"
Government witness and pled guilty to a civil rights .chat .
now serving life in a Federal prison. ' ,">
Henry Hayes was tried and convicted of capital murde'
district attorney's office in Mobile and sentenced to die 'iii
tric chair by Judge Braxton Kittrell who is now on this p
Sessions cooperated and made available the total reSOIlr
office as did Moss Stack, the agentin charge of the FBE
to help the State come to its successful conclusion in this
Mr. Sessions expressed on several <\ccasi<\ns his elesi
case come to a successful conclusion anel to include evetYQn
ble involved in a conspiracy to kill Michael Donald.
Mr. Sessions was concerned that the investigatot$,
against any member of the Klan, or others olltsiqe of the
had knowledge or who had helped in any manner. On
499
in his office, Mr. Sessions expressed his frustrations to me at the
"lack of evidence against .others involved in this conspiracy, and
wondered aloud if there was anything that we had missed, or any-
thing still to be done. .
He was not complaining of the lack of talented investigators, he
'thought that others knew more than they were telling.
This crime shocked him as it shocked the community. Many felt
hat we were not doing our best to solve this case. The end results
,proved otherwise.
Mr. Sessions expressed his concern to Mr. Galanos and me on
'Illore than one occasion, that others involved should not be given
any immunity for testifying, that we worked to prove our case,
'chargin~ as many as we possibly could. His desire, as well as Mr.
Galanos was to see them vigorously prosecuted.
, Without his cooperation, the State could not have proceeded
against Henry Hayes on a capital murder charge. I have worked
·with white collar crime and political corruption cases with Mr. Ses-
'ons also, and all have been successful.
Never have I heard Mr. Sessions make a racial slur or found him
to be racially biased or insensitive, I was shocked, as many in
Mobile are, to read in the media of those accusations. His record as
..S. attorney proves otherwise.
"Thank you. .
'Senator DENTON. My original information was apparently incor-
ct. I think you two gentlemen can depart as late as a quarter to
iJt, to mlike the airport. Is that correct?
Would the other two witnesses mind if I asked some questions?
o you have to make a plane quicker than that, sir?
Judge KITTRELL. No, sir.
Senator DENTON. Let me ask Judge Kittrell, then, as a Circuit
dge, yoU meet the lawyers of Mobile on a re~lar basis. Could
u give y:our estimate of how they view Mr. Sessrons?
Judge KITTRELL. I think that they view Mr. Sessions as a coura-
Ous prosecutor and a very intelligent attorney, and I think they
ld hIm in the highest regard.
anator DENTON. Do you know of any action taken by Mr. Ses-
ns that you thought was motivated by racial prejudice?
Judge KITTRELL. Absolutely not. . .
Senator DENTON. Have you ever heard him say or make any ra-
lly derogatory remark?
udge KITTRELL. I have not.
enator DENTON. He has led his office through a series of ex-
mely intense and highly publicized prosecutions, very successful-
in most cases, and at some risk, according to Mr. Kimbroush,
o advised him not to take on the Perry County case, because of
political risk even though there was no doubt about the need to
e it on.
ould you tell us your estimate of how he has conducted himself
er this intense pressure?
dge KITTRELL. Senator, of course, Mr. Sessions has been in the
ral court and I have been in the State court, but what I have
of Mr. Sessions and what I know of him, he has always con-
d himself in the highest manner and he has always been able
andle the pressure and prosecute those cases with great vigor.
500
Senator DENTON. Who is Judge Robert Hodnette?".
Judge KITTRELL. Judge Hodnette was our presiding Judge, 'l<ho
immediately preceded Judge McRae, who testified yesterday.. ".,,:,
Senator DENTON. Has Judge Hodnette worked closely with Mr.
Sessions? _ _ _ ,.,.':
Judge KITTRELL. He did, particularly, during the the prosecuti(ih
of two jUdges in our city, and .as a matter of fact, Judge Hod:il~tte
asked me to convey to this committee, if I had the opportunit1,;;~ill
desire to appear here, before it, but he could not do so because:.of
health reasons.. . '';.'
Judge Hodnette holds Mr. Sessions in t4e highest regard!;:
worked rather very clo~ely with him during those prosecuti(>Jls.f
is very familiar with Mr. Sessions and Judge Hodnette is satir
that Mr. Sessions is not insensitive to blacks. . ';'."',,;'
Senator DENTON. Do you think that Mr. Sessions has the proper
judicial temperament ~o qualify4im to. serve as a Fe gera!.J:l!:dg.'.!Il.•.. 1• .
Judge KITTRELL. I thmk that Mr. SessIOns has the skIll, thee*,Il.•'
rience, and the temperament which are necessary and impor.t~t:
qualities in a judge. .'. ".,\0'"
Senator DENTON. Judge, how would you characterize yourself~\"
principally a democrat or a republican? <:,,1(~
Judge KITTRELL. I am a democrat. .,",'lif
Senator DENTON. We had Mr. Kimbroush who called 4imee!
yellow-dog democrat yesterday, would you characterize yo .'
that way?
Judge KITTRELL. I do not believe that I would characterize.
as a yellow-dog democrat; I am a democrat.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Eddy, where do you live?
Mr. EDDY. Mobile, AL.
Senator DENTON. How long have you lived there, sir?
Mr. EDDY. Six years.
Senator DENTON. What is your occupation?
Mr. EDDY. Chief investigator, district attorney's office. ",
Senator DENTON. Where else have you.lived during Y0'1T'
sional career? . - -":1
Mr. EDDY. Huntsville, AL; Montgomery, AL; small town~
of Montgomery. . .,. "
Senator DENTON. If you do not mind my asking, what is.y
liticai party affiliation?
Mr. EDDY. I am a democrat. . •...•
Senator DENTON. Have you ever held a party or elected'
office?
Mr. EDDY. Yes. ".' ..lii
Senator DENTON. You worked on the staff of the Alabad1'
torney General, is that correct?
Mr. EDDY. Yes, I did.
Senator DENTON. Was he a Democrat?
Mr. EDDY. Yes, sir, he was. _-,~"c;.<;
Senator DENTON. Were you involved in any civil right~.,9
t4at position? .:; :'.
Mr. EDDY. Yes, sir. Under Bill Baxley, the attorney "
that time, I worked the 16th Street church bombing,
four young girls, and the J .B. Stoner bombing which was
church bombing aiso where no one was killed.
501
Senator DENroN. Could you tell us your involvement in those
cases and the results of those cases?
Mi'. 'EDDY. I was assigned to those cases in 1976, by Attorney
General Bill Baxley, and worked with the FBI and other officers in
'bringing those to a successful conclusion. In the conviction of
Robert Chambliss in the bombing that killed four girls and the con·
viction of J .B. Stoner.
Senator DENroN. Recognizing rour modesty, would it be fair to
say that you are credited, pubhcly credited with having broken
open th"t case?
s, Mr. EDDY. Yes, sir.
Senator DENTON. What was the result of the prosecution?
Mr. EDDY. They were both convicted.
Senator DENTON. Do you know the nominee, Mr. Jeff Sessions?
Mr. EDDY. Yes, I do.
'" I became acquainted with him during the Michael Donald case,
''Which I think is about 3 % years ago.
, Senator DENTON. And over what period of time, did you work
Closely with Mr. Sessions?
Mr. EDDY. From that time on, I have worked, not only that case,
ut other cases out of his office, or that were handled out of his
flice. I worked with his investigators and with him.'
Senator DENTON. Would you refresh the committee on your recol·
ection of the facts in that case, considering there have been much
eflecting on Mr. Sessions' eagerness to prosecute the case.
Mr. EDDY, You are talking about Michael Donald?
,Mr, EDDY. As I remember, the first time I talked to Mr. Sessions
out it was at the YMCA and he just stopped me one day and
ed me to reflect on the case. The case had been investigated by
Mobile Police Department. The FBI had gone through one in-
tigation on it, or a preliminary investigation on it, for a civil
ts violation,
e without success, had not come to any conclusion or any sus-
cts at that particular time. He asked me to reflect on it at that
e and what I felt about it and how I felt it should be proceeding.
Shortly after that time, Mr. Galanos asked me to review the FBI
cords and also to review what had been done in Michael Donald
se by the Mobile Police Department and make a suggestion as to
hich way, if I were conducting the investigation, I would conduct
I did so. Some time after that, I do not know, weeks or days
r, I just really do not remember, I understand that Mr. Galanos
Mr. Sessions had got together and discussed one of the recom-
ndations that I had of using the grand jury to do the investiga-
n, whether to use State or Federal grand jury.
nd evidently they decided to use the Federal grand jury and
ceed with trying to gather more evidence, or trying to get the
enee.
nd it was from that point on that I was closely associated with
;'Sessions and what happened during the case, He was constant·
'nterested in the case, and each time he saw me, he asked my
ions on certain things, Or witnesses or what I felt about certain
gS, and it was always in a positive manner.
502
He was vigorously pursuing that case, from all indications that I
could see and all of the conversations that I had with him., He
wanted to get that case solved and to include as many defendants
that we could prove had anything to do with that homicide. '" ",i'j
Senator DENTON. What was the disposition of defendant Tiger
Knowles? .', , " ,):;::;A1i?
Mr. EDDY. Tiger Knowles pled guilty on a civil rights violatlp~'
and received a life sentence in Federal prison. , ' , ,
Senator DENTON. How about Henry Hayes? , , /
Mr. EDDY. Henry Hayes was tried in State court by Mr. Gala\lo~:
office, and found guilty and was sentenced to die in the electric
chair by Judge Kittrell [phonetic]. ,..;l,j.
Senator DENTON. In the e'vent that the State prosecuti91J.i'~f::'
Hayes had not been successful, do you believe that Mr. SessFo:ns
would have gone forward with the Federal prosecution? ' ' ",
Mr. EDDY. Very definitely. ""
Senator DENTON. Do you have any reason to believe that Mri
sions is racially biased or prejudiced? '"
Mr. EDDY. No, I do not.
None whatsoever.
Senator DENTON. Or racially insensitive?
Mr. EDDY. None whatsoever.
Senator DENTON. Do you think that he is temperamentally q
fied to be a Federal judge?
Mr. EDDY. Yes, I do. ',in
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, both of you gentleJ'ii
Oh, goodness gracious. I am sorry, Senator Heflin, I amge '
tired up here. ',,
Senator HEFLIN. I do not believe that I have any questions.
Senator EAST. No, thank you. ",'.
Senator DENTON. You two gentlemen may be excused, and
you very much. ' ,
Mr. EDDY. Thank you.
Judge KITTa~LL. Thank you.
[The two witnesses were excused.] ,,
Senator DENTON. Mr. George Horn is on the MobileCou:nt
utive Republican Committee, in Mobile, AL. ',"
If you have an opening statement, you may make one. Mf:.
I do have questions. ' , ' ; ;
Mr. Horn Senator Denton and Senator Heflin and Senator
my name is George Horn and I am from Prichard, AL. ,J\nel'
retired civil service employee and I am also retired oil. Sc5el~
rity with my 62d birthday, and I still practice public aecq
and I am a constable from Alabama 33rd Senatorial Distil
97th representative district in No.2 spot, as a constable.'
That is my opening statement.
Senator DENTON. Where were you born?
Mr. HOaN. I was born in Clarke County, Grove Hill, ,A.L.
Senator DENTON. And how long have you lived in the ¥'
chard area? " C"
Mr. HORN. Approximately 40 years continuousl:\!" '. ':i/
Senator DENTON. How long have you been a RepubIIc1}!t;'i
503
Mr. HORN, I became interested in the Republican Party in 1940
during the battle of Thomas Dewey and Wendell Wilkie, when I
Was in high school in Thomasville.
Senator DENTON. Do you hold, or have you ever held any official
position in the Republican Party? .
Mr. HORN. Ihave.
Senator DENTON. What was it or what were they?
. Mr. HORN. I am a member of the Mobile County Republican Ex-
ecutive Committee, and for two terms and I have been a member of
the Alabama State Republican Executive Committee.
Senator DENTON. Are you familiar with the nominee, Jeff Ses-
sions?
Mr. HORN. I am.
Senator DENTON. How many years have you known him, sir?
Mr. HORN. I first met him in 1977.
. Senator DENTON. Have you had frequent contact with him since
then?
r Mr. HORN. Very frequently, especially when he was a member of
the Mobile County Republican Executive Committee.
,. Senator DENTON. Have you been with him frequently in meetings
or conversations of a political of a philosophical nature?
Mr. HORN. Three different ways I was with him on the Mobile
ounty Republican Executive Committee quite frequently and sev-
ral club meetings too, and then I thought enough of him to recom-
nd him to my daughter, since I found out that he was a lawyer,
was so friendly when I first met him, I thought that he Was an
urance agent.
I thought he was trying to sell me some insurance until I ran up
him in the courthouse and he asked me about my troubles, and
Was trying to find some records, and he said, well, George, I will
it in 3 minutes or so, and he did so. So I recommended him to
'. daughter because some friends were later going to Belize which
d to be old British Honduras, she gave him a vote of apprecia-
n, she told me she Was glad to meet a man like him WIth his
aracter.
Senator DENTON. Do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Ses-
Us is racially biased or prejudiced?
r. HORN., None at all. I am very tender in that place and if I
suspected that, I would have stood off from him.
nator DENTON. Have you ever heard Jeff make any comments
suggestions that would show racial insensitivity?
Mr. HORN. Not in my presence.
Senator DENTON. From Y0\.lr position'as a member of the Repub·
an Executive Committee, could you tell us what your view of the
eral opinion of Jeff is, particularly in the black community?
r. HORN. Those that know him are respecting him highly. It is
ommunity that is perhaps 60 to 90 percent Democratic but the
Ie that know him are at least 500 people out of about 10,000 or
, 00 are Republicans and they respect him highly.
nator DENTON. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Horn, and we
preciate rour having stayed over. It was quite a sacrifice and we
. reciate It.
.r. aORN. Thank you.
. nator DENTON. Senator Heflin.
504
Senator HEFLIN. 1 do not have any questions other than the fact
that Prichard, 1 believe, has a Republican Mayor too, has it not?
Mr. HORN. Yes, sir. .
Senator HEFLIN. You are a Wendell Wilkie Republican?
Mr. HORN. Well, 1 was a young man when Wendell Wilkie and
Thomas Dewey tied up in 1940 and 1 got interested in the party.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, Mayor Smith is a johnny come lately? .
Mr. HORN. Yes, to me.
Senator HEFLIN. All right, 1 do not have any questions.
Senator DENTON.. Senator East?
Senator EAST. Thank you, no. . ."
Senator DENTON. You can be excused if you wish, Mr. Horn, but
you may remain if you desire.
Rev. Ben Sawada.
If you care to make an opening statement, sir, you can. ..
Reverend SAWADA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senater Heflin,
Senater E a s t . . . , .
1 do have a short statement that 1 would like to make but first 1
would like to express appreciation for your staying here and listen,
ing and allowing me to testify before your committee on behalf of
Jeff Sessions. ,c
I do not come as an attorney, nor, as an official of any court; nor
as a politician. 1 come merely as a preacher wanting to testify•••tli..·
the integrity and good character of Mr. Sessions as I know him."l
would also like te witness to the reputation that Mr. Sessions'"
enjoys in our community. 1 am Rev. Ben Sawada, senior minister
at Ashland Place United Methodist Church in Mobile, AL. Thi§.As,.
the church where Mr. Sessions and his family are members' a;Ildi
they have been active members for over 10 years. Mr. SessioU§,
himself, has been .a participant or a member of the Methodist.,
Church all of this life. '
1.met Mr. Sessions for the first time back in 1962 or 1963"w
he was participating as a Youth in a week-long church span
youth program in Montgomery, AL. I was there as a minister
ing on the staff. Later 1 knew of Mr. Sessions' graduation"
high school and then enrollment in Huntington College, a·Me.
ist related school. And some time later, it was around 193.0
Sessions invited me te participate in a program for the alUm
program at the Huntington College.
Then the next time our paths crossed was when 1 was app
Minister of the Ashland Place Church, where Mr.. Sessions".
member. 1 give all of that information just to let you know
have known Mr. Sessions over a period of years, but· have
most closely associated with him these past 2 years as his' mI.
Several months ago, 1 was interviewed by Federal Bureau
tigater, Edward Kilday and the report that 1 gave to him'
was, as far as 1 knew, that there was nothing in Mr. Sessions!
acter, his activities, his behavior, his habits which would ao
him to serve as an effective, and fair U.S. Federal jlldlle.
I also told the agent that as far as 1 knew, Mr. SesslOns e·
good reputation throughout our community and of cOllrse;'.
the same opinion now, as 1 was back then when interviewed'
Mr. Sessions and his wife have been members of the'"
Place Church, as 1 said, for over 10 years, and during th
505
Mr. Sessions has been very regular and very active in his participa-
tion and attendance at the church and its program.
" He has served in various elected positions, been on various
boards and committees, and at present, Mr. Sessions is holding the
office of Lay Leader. Of course, that is the highest elected position
in a local church and it is the one that holds the most respect of
the congregational members. This reflects the respect and the trust
of the congregation. .
So, I would like to say, that I feel that Mr. Sessions is a very hon-
orable man, a man with high standards of morality and a man of
veracity and one who deals fairly with people. I have never heard
Mr. Sessions make any comments which I think would disqualify
him as United States District Judge.
Thank you.
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, sir.
How long have you-I wished that I had introduced you properly
as a senior minister.
Rev. SAWADA. That is all right.
Senator DENTON. How long have you known Mr. Sessions?
Rev. SAWADA. I first met him in 1962, and have known him since
then, but I have been his minister only for the past 2 years,
though.
" Senator DENTON. How regularly do you see him in that relation-
ship and talk with him?
Rev. SAWADA. Well, his being on various committees, and boards,
because of his lay leadership now, I see him quite often, officially
lind unofficially.
!. Senator DENTON. To your knowledge and to your hearing, has
Mr. Sessions ever said anything derogatory of any race or religion?
Rev. SAWADA. I have never heard it, sir.
Senator DENTON. Would you find it easy to believe that he made
derogatory statements regarding civil rights groups such as the
,SCLC or NAACP?
Rev. SAWADA. I was surprised when I heard it.
;;"Senator DENTON. Senator Heflin?
Senator HEFLIN. I have no questions.
'Senator DENTON. Senator East?
Senator EAST. I have no questions.
'Senator DENTON. Thank you verr much, gentlemen, I appreciate
ur waiting so long. And I have Just been informed that Senator
larence Mitchell is here.
And he can come forward.
The witnesses were excused.]
enator DENTON. If you will remain standing Senator Mitchell, I
'11 ask you to raise your right hand.
Do you swear that the testimony that you will give this subcom-
ittee today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
truth, so help_you God? -
I".·MITCHELL. Yes, I do.
nator DENTON. Will you please be seated?
.r, if you have an opening statement, you are free to make it at
time.
STATEMENT
- OF STATE SENATOR CLARENCE
.. MITCHELL
r. MITCHELL. Senators and Mr. Chairman, I have submitted a
ten statement which after having served 24 years with the
506
Maryland Legislature, I recognize to be sufficient for any kind 'of
formal testimony and would be ,available to answer questions yOu
might have. Say, briefly in terms of the written statement that I
have issued did not include a little background of who I am and wh,at
I have been about most of my l i f e . , '
I am the son of Clarence Mitchell, Jr., who for 35 years was, the
director of the Washington Bureau of the NAACP, and played a
major role in shaping the language and the direction of lJlost 9ftbe
civil rights legislation that has been passed by this honorable pody,
since 1957. "L,,,,,)
In my own right, I was active in ,the youth movement9f.th~·
NAACP and was one of the founders of the Student Nonviolent q~~
ordinating Committee, worked in the South, in Alabama, Georgi,al
Mississippi, as well as Maryland, and Maryland can be include:d,'il),.
the South, we are below the Mason·Dixon line by geography/~'l)d'
we are also at that time and still to some extent below the Masoli·
Dixon line in philosophy and social practices, as well, which)~
what has led me to stay in the Maryland Legislature the 24 ye-atS
that I have stayed there. , < .;
I also come as president of the National Black Caucus of State
Legislators, an organization of 392 black State legislator~ in 12
States. I have served as their national president for the last 6:y,e~j/~
and was unanimously reelected at our conference by some 200 of
our members from all over the country in December to continue ,to
serve as their president.
It is in that capacity that I have come to be involved in the situa~
tion in Alabama, and it is in that capacity that I come before this
committee to hopeflllly persuade the members of this pane'~b.'at
they would do a serious injustice to the cause of progress'" ~ll'd'
human rights, if they approve the nomination of Mr. Sessions.
. lfaving said that, Mr. Chairman, I would welcome anyquestiOl\s
that you or any member of the panel have of me. ,,'0 /.,,'('1:* .
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Senator Mitchell. ····.;·2·
Mr. MITCHELL. Yes,sir.
Senator DENTON. In your written testilJlony, you refer to.
had a May 24 meeting last year with Alabama's Gov. Geof ,
Wallace, at which your NBCSL Executive Committee contel)4ed
that the FBI was trampling the civil rights of its State citizens by
using intimidation and harassment to investigate the accusations
against Albert and Evelyn Turner and Spencer Hogue. .
You go on and say, "We secured the Governor's promise to:!)'(\;
bilize the State's investigative forces, should evidence suppotti#g<
our contention surface at the trial of these Perry County defepd'
-ants.", ",-,>.;
I respect Governor Wallace. I like Governor Wallace, and,hapl'~ll
to believe that he has sincerely turned around on the civil rig):lts
issue, He respects me and he likes me and we are in frequent/teil':
phone and personal communication. _;-';-i';!,~)(~l
I never got a call from him about the Perry Countycase:...
wonder what mobilization he undertook or did no evidence ~llrfac~.
that you were correct regarding your contention that the FBI was
trampling the civil rights, et cetera? ,o,id",
Mr. MITCHELL. Having reviewed the conduct of the hearings th~f·
were held relative to Evelyn Turner, Albert Turner, and. Spen . ,
507
Hogue, it was obvious that there were many instances of the Feder·
al Department of Justice having trampled on the rights ofblack
Citizens in the State of Alabama., ,
We'have not lla~Ia response from the Governor,as to whether or
!lot the State.in.tends to move forward on the commitment that he
made, not just to me, butlJlack membe,rs of the Alabama State Leg"
i~latllre, \Jot}) Senate and House, .as well as bla,ck members of State
',;" legislaturedrOln otherStates;whq were ,meeting t h e r e . , ,
I ' My; argument to the. Governor, in requesting thatl).emake sllch.
I,: an illvestigation, shOlllci' theevici'ence ,w,ar.~;;tntit, wl!l!,\Jaseci' ,on the
~ fact that the ,Governor ofany State, ;bas, a responsibility to Protect
~ the Citizensoftheir State, his,or hetState from<anyunwarranted
" intrusion or violation of their rigllts.".-beitJrom the.F;eci'eral Gov-
I, ernment or be it from, outside forces or private forces Within the
• community. " .' , "'
W; Haying been to Alabama on' many occasions during the period
* f~bm March through until now, having talked,with IlU'nY of the
1 citizens who felt, abused by the conduct of the Department of JUS"
~ tice, in this case, there is noothet, conclusion",that a·reasonable
~ personcoulci' come to, ," ' . ," ',,'
• ,Senator DENTON. My question was not in"reference to'your view,
t it Was to the, view of GoverrJor Wallace. You have made your.views
I clear, indeed, you have made your views as quoted.by the Birming-
~ ham News, Tuesday, June 25, 1985, opening paragraph ofall, article
J,
~;.,', headlined, "Vote Fraud Case, is Political Ploy Black Leader Says,"
. "Probe used as tool to get Denton reelected; Clarence Mitchell
says." It is by John' Brinkley, Post Herald' Washington Bureau,
Washington; , ,. " ", ' , •. , , ','
.. ':rhe Justice Department is pursuing the black belt v~te'rtaud case.~ a part
of the
Eeagan Administration ploy to help Senator·Jeremiah·Denton get-reelec,ted Presi·
dent of the National Black Caucus of State Legislators, charged yesterday. ,
l:~ The Administration is conducting this inve.stigation,as,a-poUticro tool fOf:Senator
JElremiah Dento.n,sai~ Claren'<::e Mitchell, :who" is 'also a Maryl'and State,Semitor.
'~"Ii~_ s,aid, the FBI, in ',inv~stil1ating: the cas~, .U:8_ed intimldation tactics desigI;1ed to
4iil:_cq:urag~ 111ac,lta from votlng, In- future electlohS;
~"~eiit6nra_ Re'i:fublican; is up'for, reelectiOn,next,'year;. , " _',_' " "', " ., '" , _:
1\1'r. Mitchell, t categorip1l11ydeny now, as I have onpastocca'·
~ions, the allegation tliatthePreaident, Mr. Meese, ormyself,had
",'dything to do \vithusing that investigation as a political tool. I
was not aware ofthat.investigation until Iread about it in the
J paper. Your alleglltion~; ! consider, aerious in a personal, legal, and
professimisJ sense., ' '. , ' ., " ' .', ,'.., . ,
., What did you base your charge. on, that I or the administration
is conductiIlg the investigatIon as a political tool for me? .
Mr. MITCHELL. First, Senator, I assume that you have had, in
l y,'o,·ur p,eriO,dO,f,.,pUb,1ic service,· c,ontact wi,th neWspapers as, "wei).
'<There was one,wbrp. left out and that was,appear. And cer,tainly
the appearance based on the circumstantial evidence led me to be-
\l~v!"" having, h,adex,Per,ience with~he conduct ofsom,e forc,es in'the
~resent adIlllnlstril,tlOn of the Justice Department, gIven the quotes
~fthe Attorl1~Y Gell:eralofthe United Stat~s as to not be.lieving in
the presumptlOn of mnocence, a tenet that IS the foundatlOnOfour
s¥~tem ofjustice in this country, given the fact that ,only black ;;te-
tlViats and black absentee voters were the victims of the harass-
.,;' -" ' , ", ' , , ' "c_ , ;
63-867 0 - 87 - 17
508:(
.,~;
rh~~\h~~~~~1f::\h~rr.~.(;m~;n~~d;~~~a~u~~~d~C~~dehi~S~I}a~
this fashion is, that his D.S. Senator recommends him forappointC.:
't
ment to, the Federal judiciary,certainly presents circumstaMes.
that lead one to question as to whether the activity that haS1:>ee'il
going on in Alabama, is politically motivated. ,··'!l~.
Senator DENTON. Well, I certainly do not agree with that reldtioi\;·
of the circumstances. First, the investigation .into the Perry· Coy. '.'
case appears to have been late. There are reasons to believ'!'t.]\'l!
probablrshould have begun back in. 1982. There have beenasttililF
of Justice Department civil rights people here apparently with·
whom we disagree, but many who were with the Justice DepaVt!",
ment long before President Reagan was the Chief Executive"who·,
share that, in fact, instilled that view in me, by their expert testi'·
mony as to why it was justified. !',.,.,.
. A young black man, a legal assistant to the district atto~ney lil\
Marion, LaVon Phillips, gave, testimony yesterday in whicn·"he.
characterized the situation there as one indeed, involving intimid"~
tion of black voters. One which those black voters complained!
about and it was a Democratic primary difficult to see, in .yolir,
mind how the circumstances in the Democr'\tic primary would'be;
used by me to thrust myself in it, to intimidate black voters! b~6talli"
any rate, the case was realized, was justified, 'and it was undertall;::·
en and the situation characterizing the political situation there"b~"
Mr. Phillips was one, which I believed. . "o"d
And I do, not want to be elected by intimidated votes, but··for, •.
your information, all the polls I am <,ware of in the State, show,iI111"
with 40 percent of the black vote support, which is higher,thali>:,
that of my Democratic opponent. ,d""
So it would be insane, I think you would realize as a .politiclli\",·
for me to want to intimidate voters away from voting for me. ",,,,,,$, ,.
Would you answer that question? " ",' I
Mr. MITCHELL. I am happy to hear that, Senator, and lam 4al1::1"
to hear, honorable sir, you cat,egorically deny that youwO\l!iJ, ..
ticipate in the intimidation of black voters in your State, T.J1tt
tainly is refreshing and would give iqdication of the fact that
persons whOm I have talked to who have fears really do JWt
reason to be fearful at' all, because you apparently are hidi ,
that yoU are going to be in the forefront ofprotecting theiqi~
participate in the process by FBI agents flashing badges iii t'
faces,' odd hours of carrying them, on buses to Mobile, AI", maJir,J:.9c~
the folks who had never been outside of their county, thatcert.'\li,IYi:
is refreshing and I am happy tohear that., " " . .:.J
Senator DENrON. The allegations 'that you just made abo11t co))~(;
tions on the bus ride and so on have been refuted by the testirn?tlJli'.•
of many people here and hYllffidavit. I would charge yOU wit ",
~li~~MliziiJ.g and distorting but this is not'the time 6r"pX~c~
Mr. MITCHELL. If! might say, Mr. Chairman, t4ereJs 0.40:,
of my public service t?at Iintended to mention an.d t4,aF}>~,a
mentioned, and that IS, for the last 4 years, I havechmfec;l't
ecutiye Nominations Committee of the Maryland Senate,'.
the committee that is charged with, 'the responsihilityof confi
jiidicial appointments of the Governor, from the district cou '
509
all the way to the cou,t of appeal~ leyel, which i~ our highe~t court
in Maryl!p:J.d, S6, I have had some experience in weighirig the fac·
tors th'lt ought to be pres~nnn confirming persons who seek serv:
ice in t)lejudiciaryin our State. 'And having had the opportunity
to have that experie!)ce,and then having looked at the re.cord of
t)le present proposed appoi!)tee, I would certainly agliil), very
strongly suggest that this is not· the kind ofperson that ought 'to be
serving the people of this country at the level of the Federal judici·
ary. . .
'Senator DE~,rON: Let me respond t6 that, sir. , . ...
. , We have the testimony of blac~ attorne~; we have th~ testimony
Of Larry Thompson,King & Sp'l.1iling Atlanta, GA, 'who is former
V.S. attorney who ha~ hada good bit more experience, Perhaps
than You, in civil rightscases. We have people who have lived in
Perry Cpunty .who are not "characterizing the. situation ,in the
maimer you are and they have had plenty of experience with it
tpo. And if there is voter fraud going on; I suggest you look at the
PO.. S~ibilitY that it might have been on the other side . of 'the fee.n.ce,
pecause all. of these people have asserted that if there was any,
thilt is where it was cOming from and the prosecution failed, pr6b-
aply because 1\1r. Sessions was a little overloaded and wasnotabie
to attend the 'case, personally. '.,
• So, I hopethat you will take a more lenient view of what is going
oil in Alabama, We haverno;'e elected officials, black in Alabama,
than any other State in the Union minus one. We have more black
mayors in Alabama than any other State in the Union, bar none.
That is not per capita, that is total.
, I happen to know everYone of the black mayors in Alabama, I
am on friendly terms with them all. I think that although they
!')i,ght not vote for me, they certainly trust me and theyJike !')e
111)(1 they have had me speak to them on anumber of occasIOns and
I like them. I know that there will be Democratic and Republican
all the time and I hope that we get a two-party system in the
South, and the black mayors of Alabama gave me their State
award 2 years ago. ... . . .. ..,
,.. So, I am not exactly on' bad terms. with them and I resent' your
taking umbrage "nd .making your construction of circumstanti'll
evidence in, the mahnerwhich you did. . .., .' '.'
"FIave you ever brought to the attention, of the Justice Depatt-
me1'tor to any U.S, attotney, anY,evidence or allegations of voter
(rliud in Alabama, and' if so, what was the disposition thereof? .
~ Mr. MITCHELL. I supported the Alabama Legislative Black
'Caucus'as well' as Senator Sanders and the other civil rights activ:
i,sts, voter rights -activists and leadersiIip ,in' Alabama in their ef·
,.forts to get redress of the conduct,' particularly in, as I. rem~mber,
, three counties where the population which was majority black .and
'" there are no bllickelected officials. ' . ' " ,.. .
" ::.; !\gaiji,cirput;1stan'c,ea" that.certllinly ough~ to be' ~orthy "f' in.-
'guiry 6n the part of any'U.S. attorney who IS commItted to assur·'
,.. ing' equal access to political participation by all the citizens of his
~,Jar_~~':;,_"'~---':'- "".';' """:"'" '"'~:\,-, '.':': . ,," .. ' "-:-' "",'
~.B.,.S.
'.i!!• Ii\!)t
'.: to a 0.'.'IiN.
e.".!It.or. U.S. '. T,O.N..· i. d. 'I)ot pers.6nl!llyb.r.ing '11'. y.of.ficia.l"". hi·
• Y.. o.·u..'. d..or
attorney to the JustICe Department or the FBI
'/'panY,ofthese instances? ," . ,.. .
"",. ".,- '".d " ,." - " " , .
510
Mr. MITCHELL. No, sir, I did not In fact, when I became. in'
volved-you know 0l1e of the strategies of those who would oppose
tre fOt\)'llrd progreSs. of black Americans,. and I say, ..one '. of tr~
~tra~egies, because I rave been in situations when I was working
with til.e SNCC organization where I was facing the shotgun Or!! .
ra.Gist ,whi.t.e..sheriff who, was dete.r.ril.in.ed... to prevent us.. from. r.. egi.!s.'.'
tering blacks 'who sought to participate.in the process duringt!l\it
period.' . . ',:..;:.
But for the fact that thllt particulllr sheriff hadcontrolofJr~
trigger finger, I 1Jlight hot be sitting here before You todaY,''l'Mre
are prooably some people who are' wishing.thathad. occ,\rr¢;di'lll
well. . . . , . '. . '. . . , ' •.....: . .' ".•. ..';';';\
So, I have seen that kind Of attempt to prevent the progres~."!l{
the black comrrlUnity. And no", I .. llm seeing a different.kinll.:pf
stra~egy. lam seeing a strate~ that is being utilized by}ho~e·.wh<l
would defeat right thinking people of all htlesand colorsilliid'tni\~
is, the utllizatiori'ofthe very laws that were passed to prote<jtth~m
to try to defeat t h e m . ' .. . '.' .;,;,
I suggest to you that we will be as vigilant as the founders of thi~
c<,Juntry were in preserving tlle progress that.we haVe.mllde~p)j
continuing to build on it. I COme from theStllte of Maryllin<;t,.wlteM
I. h!lY~ . con~istently supported for p.S; Senate,.ams",!>e)" of'(~l1is,,,
commIttee, .~enator Charles MathiaS, because he repre~.eHts,;t1Jl;' .)
finest qualities that can be found for one who would servellJi"l!'f;
bodysuchas this. And I paid no attention totbe fact thathe,hl\Jjj'1
pens to.oe .Of. the Rep.. ublican p.ar.ty: In s.pite of the r.act, tr.atQ.•·.ij.'e~.'.\E.. 'Ii
my colleagues in the Senate, a great liberal Democrat, .wa!' rl1n'll\n'(; "1
against him on one Qccasion, apd I sUPPo:rted SeHator JI.1:a~hjiti'~,
alluSe of what he.stpod for and not what Ius Pllrtps." .' '>t1"11':
·Jm.entipitth~t,tq ~,a~ to.yo~, that. whateverPer~eption$I{pqs
uP.wIth, ~renot relatel! (partIcular1:r to a personsparty.,b,]I,ffl~"
theIr .conduct. . . . " . . .. .' .." ..... .,,'
senatOr tJENTOI;. Well, I do not think that my. col'lduct, qtl '
your inferences. . '. . ". ";.:'
Mr. MITCHELL. I was, not referring to, yours.. ,.':' .• 0" (
Senator DENToN. Or circumstantial "vidence. I do notthln,,'
it existed there. You have quciteda sta~ernent !lll.d 1,)j6;not".··
this. wllsm!sql1oted or not,yoJi said y,Ou were misquoted;,
John Brinkley, anI!' it should have peen llPP·eared.. , " ' ,,;,
This is another one that!. would like to asl<,you alJo.ut:,"'l'
z~ttia~~O\he f~6~~tr~j,Il.Eutris~id~~¥~~cr~nr~ob~b~t~~t?!I~~§£; .
t~tih~~lh~~tah~a~~~e;~lli~o~~6~tt~~; and' Win'/krid;ieW~,~i'
~,h~'90ov!l!noF h:~.not,!lit;her, b1.lt ~wi:: l~t yciu .l<,no~ ,th'!-t)'ra~J!
terested m voter f r a u d . . . ,,' (' ." f .••• ' , ' "t" '')',"
• Mr. ¥ITC!iELI,..,We arestillworkij;ig "n.that ~nd,We.willk:'" .
tiLb~ingt)i~H,o' yotir,att!ll1t\Q,,:,as"YelrastQ..e~tten·ticill?~· .
Hefhnt.~, .. ",_, i,.:',','·" :,';:"':""'-":;"'(c" ".",,':--,,'" ,:,;. ,,<"'·':.r::,f, "
'SeillitOr DENTON. In 'case, and t'fiiiwill be my Jast'r'emar
IP'ISs .it ,011 ~o. :3!"p'!-,tpr l!~f1,w,th:ere hllov\,b\,elI!'. ,n!I~ber,~f
(raudmvestlgatlolI~ and tqaJsm4\1llba1Jla durmg ,the
President'Reagan. The 1981' case inR!indolphqQ\1ntyjnvQl~ ,
indictment of 11 people, one of whom was black;ana"the 'ot'ner .
i
I
511
being white. Three people, all white, were .convicted from thein-
Q,ictment, inql\lding the incumbent sheriff, all of those convicted
were white. Iii Bullock County, in 1983 a black city couiJ,cilman was
indicted and pled guilty to a voting. rights violation. In Marshall
County, in 1984, one person, white,wlis indictedan(iconvicted of
charges..similar to the,Perp' Coui'!ly Case.
·Senator Heflip.. . .
Sen",tor HEFLIN. I have no questions.
Senator DENTON. Senator East. .
·Senator E"ST. I have. none. ,
Senator,DENToN. Thank you very. much, for. your testim.ony
today.. ". ' .... . ." .,
Mr. MrrcHELL.Than,kyou, Senator.
I would just lii<e to say 'to the cOlp.mittee that the chilling effect
of criminal indiqtments in this situation. and whether' yoU are
aware of it or not, itl\'asintended that there would be more than
those that were ultimately indicted, is the thing that ought to be . of
COl)cern who are charged with the responsibility, be wt!in Federal
public office and that <lliY may, come foflp.e at.some point, or be we
in$tate office. And I wOl,1ld hope that lill of us· would continue to
be. iii the vanguard of as.suring. t,hatothe tools of the federal Gov-
ernment are riot utilized ,to, frustrate the participation of' any 'per-
s,ons .in the politiq",l Pf'ocess. "
·And thatis the reason th",t .1 am here, ,' .. ' .
SeilatorDENTQN.·The Federal Government was there to investi-
gate a case in which blacks compjained about votes being stolen or
changed, and. intimidation.! !)elieve, th",t the case sllQuld have been
!)rought ",ndsodoes the,Jlistice;Dgpartment, solf there is intimid",-
tion against voter.fraud, I gUess' that is OK-But I do. not think tl:tlit
a,nybody ""ants to intimidate on voting. ' ..
:.Senator Heflin' do you have . ",nything else?
~::ti~ If,i:':~6i-.~~f you\vi~h tor~m~in, lVIr.'L~Voii .Phillips
would 'like to.colp.e back to the table.. ..... . '.
He has a dirferent perspective on' the Perry C<l\lnty.sjtuatiOn,
that;lp.igjit help ror YoU.to hear. . . ....:. ;
: .Mr.!'hillips, you have been sWOrn in So that YOUlp.ay· be seated.
:Yo\! have justheard-di~ you hear most ·of the testimony from
State Senator Clarence MItchell of Maryland? , •., .
,:.,·Mr.]?HILLIPS. Ye~,sir, ,mo~t ,of -it., " ' _ " "'C' , " " , "',',.',
.SenatorDENT<lN. And did.youhelir most ofthaHromMr; ,Sand-
ers,Reverend Dobynes, as well? .
.¥r:PHILL,ps.Yes, s i r . . . . . . ..
. Senator DENTON. I will bring your attention tOSOlp.e of the points
tbat were made by them, starting with SenatOr Mitchell, theti'a:m-
,Rling o.n the rights of black citizens by FBI andthe Justice Depart.-
,lp.ent . .
.. Since you were there, could you comment on that charge and·t)J.e
cbarge that t)J.e indictments. were intended to lntilp.idate blacks
. from voting? . ' .. . . ' . .' .
Mr. PHILLIPS. Sir, basically the initial leg work in t)J.e inyestiga-
flon, the ballots that were changed, we went to visit:'eachand
,every.,-I did..not personally"but I went. to visit. some ofthem along
;vith an F?I agent, and knocked on the person's door and throug)J.
5J.2
apr6cedtir~, if you 'are on liiw'eriforcemen\J:thefirsttbingthaty<l:~
?o .is 'one, .i~~ntify .r~u~s.elf: '.~~~' 0!lce t]1at' agent'an~, '1l}Y~~lrNW~
lde!1:t~f\~do\\rs~lV~s1tliel}youproceedto g~t.to: 'th~ bt:iSls"tt1,¥~
questlOns that'}'ou·wan'HOas!<!'And·'thosewho Wlinted toansW?'
questions,wehstenl!d.''l'heFj3Iuses Il'Totll1,'r'helteve, 'calle1l30i,
and we did not use any undue iriflueridi''ofuse: anytactic''t1,ilit
would constitute trickery to get someone to cooperate with:U8.. ,.
I instructed the FBI agentil'tlilitifnfteldedy blacl(person;·Who..
ever, it may be, white or black, iff they did''notwantto testify;'do
not push the issue, leave it alone. There were times that I ",as'W/th
ofie'OrtWo 'FBI agents; one I carl recall, I just cannot remernber"his
name, yeu know, that was rathe, aggressive, I wQuldsay, but I ,told
the agent, I said, th~ persOn did ·notwan.tt~cooperate/Jusf1efitbe
beee..use it. fily..ery im.port.liilt"ap.d, as:yo~ kn..0. w;..'~n. th.e. ru.Ie.nre.vi;
dence\the'f"urtliamendmeil't;'s S.elzure, anytlliie you Use undU:e
'influenec-on"anybody' t,dobtahi !In;yrneilris' of evidence; you, cnnll'b"t
')jse';,ltt, ''.:',:)':" ",t: _ ,::.:':',','. ,,'i,:J~'t :"'~l;~",~;;_", "~:':._ ::-'::;.;.... :~-' ," '_"~:: ,-:.,~,(J,.l'i
•'." So"the' '~e~t' wElY to ·f!'.o.about'it.. iS' .th\o.:'iight\\oay. They ei~her 'c.lili.i,5'
erate, !Jrlf'they 'do 'not went ,to cooperate, nne!'. '.; . :.;K,
". Arn.d'let it be. And that WI1S 'iliyWholeprinciple behind the''Bltqal
tion'. Butho; therewasnoiiltlIhid~ti6nwhatsoever:''. ". . . ' ,,,,
c, Now, 'In .your r\lralcomhiunities; whetey,,\; Jhav~. elderIy oilli:!!
citizens, normally, as yo~ w:llkno~, !h~ofiltpei's(m.thntth~1¥!'if
someone comes up to thelr frontyard.,u,afiUlt,'andtle, theyeltper
lireablll collector or all. inSUrllI'Wengent.And 'Of course; ll: lot' of
people woullibeunCiomfortab)e coutwe'didthe best that wecoula'~
rernedy;tl;isi ~it!!lation and mek,et)iose peqplefe~l ~ha~we we,rer~otl
theredo"fitlmrdate thell1 ; BSl'fig'blackm;; the 'dlstrlctattorwey,~ ,1
offiCll'/I 'haveilliV fnterest to lie!; thta'that myrElputntion'isln !iiie', . .'iI.';
that my morals are in. !ine, that my veraclty; my chliriictei':q~~;'
not be ruined. And the only way that you cando that Is toDlllil¢e ;·i
~<;,r:gS~~a,~~ ~e ,;,ere very nice to people. We did not liit~l~il~te'i~
~enator DENTON. Were you aware of Senator; State seiillt<ft;'I.·.
MItchell's'involvement ata1l? . , . . , . ". ,.. ' . .'li, ""
Mr. PliILLlPS. I was out of town at the time, Ioelleve iMt,'Mjeplil .; i
ell came' to'M,arion ~ith,:,"I think-it 'wa.slItApril or 'MB,Y'. 9f'l.,a.sti~

year. He wasm Marlon' and Selma,' I think he was On thefitep5"~f '0~
the Perry County Courthouse,". .... .. .' '.;~J" ·1····
.·':•.
i
Senator DENTON, Well, you gaveaneloquertt and'Ibell'eve-;.e",·.t.
tr<ln1ely credible version' of yourperfipectlveon the voting'sit1'i!itlon .
in Perry
h",ard County,refer
witnesses the political situa:tlOn
to the black IIf· PerryCOunty.We"hifY;~
side and .'.•.'.; '.·1'1J
the Hayden'S1de?'lj:6w';,
didyou'charactel'ize it? " " . ·'i"""";::,,,;,;.
!J'l1eoneswho' were'alreai:ly incumbents were concernedil15o~~''.
sotttething,wouid you> express your definition of those' two' slde~j
and then Identify where you see Senator Mitchell, which sideWWl
he~~? PHILLIl's:'Well, getting to tbe basis of the sltuntIOn(the;~ti~;1
i
·f'
:;~
ical atmosphere In Perry County, as I stated prior, Is not on'Y"/i'i'
"""I
white and olack power struggle, as far as political ideas are '''011,''1 •
cerned. T.here Isa black on. a bl.askp?wer struggle. As I..state.d.. 'Y.es,., 1'.•
terdaythatas the black populatlOn m your rural countles be'C'6tn~ "'.•
•'" ... "'re od~"" ;" """ ;d_ Md ';w,"H'M ;,
513
ideas, basically, youktiowi obviously, it is hard to control. independ-
ent people. So, with some politics or·diversity in thinking when. it
~,
cOmes to politics, if you are educa.tedil·ou. can think for yourself, in
my opinion,.If you are not· educate . you are subjeot· to be con-
demned and only.be told what shouldbe'told,in my opinion. \
j:-
Petry County still has a high illiteracy rate among.its black'dti-
ze.ns. There was a firm that 'was in Perry County in 1980 that. took
i aoSurvey and only in 1980, this survey stipulated that only 34..6 per-..
I cent of all. Perry County·. black residents completed the 12th grade.
Less than 6 percent went on to College. And only 3 percent of those
blacks that went ,on to colJege,,·acpually.graduated. Those .figures
ar", startling, 'But that.is:increasing.·year by year.
As far ..as Mt: MitChell; J do. tiotknowhim personally, I was born'
and reared in Cleveland, OH i .and I have been r",ading about him
in high school and college, but obviously to me, it was that he was
with. thO' Albert. Turner Spencer Hogue and Evelyn Turner. He.is
not.tryirigJo hide thatobviously; but that is justthe way it is. Lam
quite sure that 'he has some interest, you know,' and I am not going
to knock what he believes in.
Senator DENTON. You said there were some blacks though, who
were worried about the former civil rights leaders?
Mr.' PHILLIPS,' Oh, yes, sir. ..' . . ...•'. .'
Sen·atorj)ENToN. Would you go into that for just a moment?
, f Mr. PHILLIPS: My' office received some complaints, from Col.
Warren P. Knyardiretired, U.S. Army who is the incumbent elect·
ed tax assessor. And Mr. Reese Billingslea, Who is the .incumbent
elected county commissioner in Place I, in<Perry CoUnty,. taken
my-and· this is what my whole rationale.is about-Reese Billings-
leais"~ervinghisthird term as county commissioner in Petty
County. His .first.term,Albertc'Turnersupported him. In. the. seCond
term, when it cam".,around·, Albert thought thathis.ideas.and:his
political'practiCes·did, not dictate·' that of his· organization. And.s().
frdm-.the).'",,..all'hellbr9k,,,.Joose. YO ll know, y.ou are [tot doing what
T l1intelling; you to do and you do not believe in what·] believe in,
sO'therefdre"dtcreates· problems.\And you know, this . is what you
have. Andrew Hayton in UnionTown; there ,has b.een· a' big conflict
between Albert ·and AhdrewHayden, Andrew Hayden .istheblac,k
mayoroLUnionTown who was· also a candidate' against' n.ank
Sanders fOr.the State senate this year. Andthat·inand of. itself;. is
creating problems as-of:now. . .. ' . ' " '.
You, have two different· jloliticalidealistswho believe in two dif·
ferent, who have two different political-I' will·not ·say, J"ack:
grounds, but· you·know!thereis a'difference in their constituency in
my; opinion-.', . " " , ".
Senator DENTON. Well, you also stated that I was correct general-
ly and I assumethat·Mr.. Mitchel1 can hear this because you·are
not from Alabama,·he· has been down there for some. years now
that the civil rights movement including NAl\CPhad,a very' .diffi·
culLand just road which they traveled, during the 1960's. My best
friend in Virginia isV,Dabney who was inthecivil rights.. move·
ment in the 1930's. My other best friend in Virginia, just deceased,
was also in the civil rights movement at that time. I happened to
get those friends in the Navy but I have been. known in my school-
yard in Mobile, AL, to get in a fight when I was in the seventh
514
grade because some of the boys were throwing rocks at the black!
maids walking home in their white uniforms. . , . , ' •.
And it was a tough fight, I mean one which involved picking up,
aboard and challenging a bigger guy because the board had a na.!I'
init and it involved more than one guy on each side. ' ,.. .:.
So, I am with all of that. What that man has told me, what I
believe to be true, before he spoke and that is, it is time totecag"
nize the fact that many blacks down· there, althaugh aware that'
more progress needs to be made, are aware that pragress has beeli'
mada and they want to shift from the palitical rabbit activist activ!:
ity to some kind of econamic improvement getting rid af the illite,""'
acy and going on with the rise 'oHhe South which is 'coming about
becaliseof the rate at which blacks have come' into the apport:unity
for the' production of goods and ,services, thraugheducation· and'
equal apportunity for jobs. . • . . .0"
Maybe not equai. So I just wish you guys could cool it a little bitt'
frankly and give it a little room. Give the South a little room to
show from its whitas some of the hospitality which they really'
have, having been kicked properly in the 1960's. I say that notb..
cause it has anything to do with this hearing, but because ithas'''to
do with a more importl;mt thing.' "d
Mr. MITCHELL. Senator, my commitment comes fromexperierices
and experiences that were' told to me. My maternal grandfather
came from Ca,rralton, MI, where as a 10-year-old boy hewatche4
his Aunt Ginney and two cousins lynched. She was the postrois!
tress .in'Carollton, MI. ' '. r,.",
Senator DENTON. I ,agree, that is why I said-_ . ""'"
,Mr. MITCHELL; My grandfather shared· that story withus'and left;'
MiS.. SiSSi.!'Pi.. and 1. ca.n..say ·to you today.,that 1 am.proud·to.gO".b.ll.••<i:.lf
to MisSIssippi and to Aillbama to'see the progress that ha:sJbe'eD!
madeandI~went:eounty,bycollnty, I ;spent timein Alabama, durJ,'jft
this"period,dl.ot just on one occllSion;but on linurober'ofpCca.Siolf/f'
not with' any .intention oftrying to dodamage·"to anY'progreSsrbufr
hopefUlly with the intention of· trying to give ,supportto!Ctlill'
progress that has been made. And lwilicontinuetobe.abouUlhatl
Senator DENTON. Mticles like'i;hisandthe kin'd.ofthmggoin~i(flf'
in"Pertyi County'·where· the powerstructure.istrying toperpe1iu~t1l%.
itself, I'do not think contribute to' an acceleration of'progtess"Ji¥ntt
the';.pro~ess has'accefedlted. I'do not wanMo see it arrestec4,,,,,,,2
Can you say anything Mr. Phillips about"theiaw'enfprcemel"t
people'llCrossthe' street,;thatReverend Dobynes referred ,to~'fl'he'
nUll.>bers' of them and so on? • .., ';., '" "j', _", ••,'i'.!:
" Mr\, PHILLIPS; Well, first of all, speaking about. Reverend Dobyfi~~'
concerning the streets were, blocked off and there were law erifor~~\
roeht'onevery corner,blahrblail.; blah;) ," '.' ,)t~·"f
;,You 'knowvthatis 'absurd. I hayestlitedmy feelings about Ri>",¢J;'
end lDobynesyesterdayand'I would be glad,to state, .themt,ag~'
Senator DENToN. How about-:wlth ·.respect to.Mr.Sanders':t¢s~il
mony about the peo~le being forcedto'go ,to;Mobile, the selectlvll
prosecution of blacks" do you, have any, remarks other tham;th~"
ones that you. mad'e yesterdaY'aboutthat? . , . " " ~ :
, Mr;PHILLlPs. No, sir; T do not' agree with,that;either;ifi,\\;
'Senator DENTON. You. do not agrElewith what Mr. Sanders 'S/ti'!i.\'
about those thmgs? i,,"'i.'
515
Mr. PHILLIPS. No.
You see, let me say one thing, when you are working in a pros·
ecutorial capacity, and people make legitimate complaints, that the
prosecutor, such as my boss. Roy Johnson, such as Jeff Sessions,
those complaints are legitimate. Now, if the evidence that you
should move forward, you do that. And like I stated yesterday, you
just do not compromise your position on politics. Sometimes things
have to be done for the good and safety of the community. People
may not see the results now, but in the long run, they will put a
deterrent to absentee ballot fraud, not only keep the blacks from
doing it but to keep the whites from doing it.
I want to say one thing, I admit that in the 1960's, you know, in
1965, I was 6 years old. Not old enough to remember. I cannot com·
pare myself to Senator Mitchell's experience on that,. but from
what my parents have told me, yes, there was fraud in the white
community. But two wrongs do not make a right. So you have to do
the best you can and the whites are out there frauding the absen-
tee ballot process, they ought to be prosecuted, and if the blacks
are doing it, they should be treated no different than anybody else.
Senator DENTON. I am sure Senator Heflin and I agree with you
and Mr. Siegelman who is my. opponent and now trying to run a
voter fraud reform program, we have his parallel on the Republi·
can side, Senator Cabaniss trying to do the same thing The more
we Can make it a free vote, available to everyone without fear,
with as much as information about the candidates, the better. That
is how you are going to get the best people in office, here and down
there.
Senator Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. I have no questions.
Senator EAST. I have none.
Senator DENTON. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
This hearing stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned at 6:22 p.m.]
'.;>.
'j
.. ;,'..','
NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS. III,
. TO IlE lJ.$.,DiSTRIC.TJUDGE . FOR THE'SOUTH·
ERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA' ,
TUESDAY, lIfAY6, '1986

, . . ' U.S. SENATE, .
COMMITT~~ ON THE JUDICIARY;
WMhingtdn, DC.
The' cominf~te~' ine~,'pursuant to::i:lbtice,-at: '10:-g0-a;m;" in'"ro0t?
SD"226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Han. Strom Thurmond
(chairman of the committee) presiding. . . .' . '
Also present: Senators Biden/Denton, East, Kennedy, Heflin,
Sip-l0Ill ,_M9ConnelliM,etze~baum, Specter I Mathias,_ ~nd DeConcini.
Staff present: Duke Short, chief investigator; Frank Klonoski; in-
vestigator;Joel Lisker, counsel; and Cindy LeBow, minority chief
counsel. .. .
I'
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CHARLES McC, MATHIAS, JR.

SenatorM';TIIIA,S, The comniittee Wil!Cdme to order, .' '. ' .
. This is tMfo\lrth hei>riIig' On the .iiom!I\,ation of Jefferson Ses-
s.ions to be. a .U,§, dis~iict judge for' t4e southern district. of Ala-
hal)1,a, T4e.jJrevious llearl""gswere held a!) the 13tli, 19th ll,ud 20th
days of March, The hearmgs lasted approxImately 18 hours, We
hear~ from 25 witnessescorcerning the nOminee, . . ..,
This morning, let me cal! first on the. Senator from Delaware,
~BWm, . ' .
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOSEPH R.BIDEN, JR.
Senator BIDEN' Thankyou, .Mr, Chairman, Mr, Chairman, I have
ahrief opening statement, if] may, .. . .'
. Mi, Chairman, almost 1 year "go, Mr. Sessions was recognized
publicly as one of the severaIpersons being considered far aPpoint-
ment to the U.S. District Court for the southern district of Ala-
bama. , . . . ....
Since then,z.nany persons ,concerned about Mr. Sessions ' nomina-
tion have raised serious qUestions relating to. his professional expe-
rience, competence, and temperament. .Included among the. issues
raised were Mr. Sessions' supervision of the inVestigation and pros-
esutio!) of the Perry County voting fraud case and his intempera-
ment "iDd raciany insensitive remarks about civil rights organiza-
tions and individuals. . . .... '. .•. ......
. Thes.e iss.ues. have been, in .this Senator's opinion, at this poillt
thoroughly explored .by. this committee. The Americalll3ar Associa-
·.. tion's .standing . c.o.mm..itte.e.. . o.n t. he. F.edera.l jUdiC.!ar.y irid. epen.de!)tIy
assessed Mr. Sessions' qualifiCations by conducting .an .in,depth
evaluation of his experience, his cOIripetence and his temperament.
(517)
518
Despite Mr. Sessions' experience and competence as a litigator,
first as assistant U.S. attorner and later as U.S. attorney in
Mobile, the ABA gave him their lowest possible a.eproval rating,
and a minority of that committee found him unqualified.
Having listened to Mr. Sessions' and Mr. Gerald Hebert's testi·
monyduringthe entire first confirliiatibn hearing;I;co'ncluded; ·t):iiii:t
Mr. Sessjons would n.o~ be a.pproye<\by tP.is.comll)itt~e. A~c\!l;deing.
ly, I adVlsed publicly that tplsrtominatio!1 sh!lurdpe withdrawn:
M~ reasons for that conciu.ionera straight(o~iir(LMr.,SesSions
admitted that after being asked whether a prominent white civil
rights lawyer had been referred to as a disgrace or traitor to his
race, he responded jjmaybe,h~is~V ,y;,-.'; ,"l
In addition, two attorneys-one a senior trial lawyer for the De-
partment ofJustice:incWashington, and the other an assistant U.S.
attorney in ,Mobile-testified that on separate occasions Mr. Ses·
sion'l had characterized the NAACP, the National Council of
Churches, theACLU, and o~\1er. orgal)-izations as un.i\lI)f;lrican, be-
Ciluse "they shove civil rights d.o~n. the throa.~of people tryin!l Jo
solve problems on their own." . .... '." . .."
:Althoughsuch statementsmayhavi:> been in. the privacy of his
office or to individuals he cOnsidered Jo ,pe friends and .colleligqes,
tlll;~ .nevertheless are inappropriate.for.'Bomeo!)e' already.boldinlla
p.osltio~ o.r ipublic",trust l\lld: see,kit,g a,Jifetime.,...,Ieniphifujze:~,fe·
time-Judicial appomtment. '., c' c'(\~.
Insensitive remarks such as those admitted by Mr. Sessions' ao
great harm ·to.the :~pearance. of fairness. and jmpartialitY'~hich
are essential to. t\1e :FederaUudiciary... . ' .' . . , . .' >
The imPfoprietyof Mr. Sessions' statements is dramatical1y:,evi.
dimced by the rorced. resignation of Secri;>tary. Earl Butz. ana former
Secretary Janies Watt froin Presiclents'. Capinets. fOr maIqng di1!'l'
nien~ that 1 would consider, and I think niost other pe'Cple woVia
consider, even less offensive. . . . . ...' .",
It isimportant to ,note that the issues concerning Mr. seasrons'
nomination have nothing to do with the State of Alabama or the
city of Mobile. The standards by which I judge Mr. Sessions are ap-
plicab)e to ,all nominees, irrespective of the Federal judicial district
from which they are nominated. ''
My decision to oppose Mr. Sessions' confirmation wou:Id be the
same regardless of whether or not he were nominated froni the'dis·
trict court in Maine or Delaware. ".
It i,s also important to note that the issue here, in my view, is not
whether or not it has to be proven that Mr. Sessions isa racls .
That question can go unspoken to, as far as I am concerned.'·. ':I1
Some witnesses, including representatives from the Perry County
blilckcommunity and defense attorneys in the Perry Countyvbte
fraud case, have charged Mr. Sessions' office with unethical or, at
the very least; unprofessional conduct.' . _,,,.t
Other witnesses have questioned the adequacy of Mr. Sessions'
supervision of the vote case. At the very least, troubling <itiestroh.
have been raised as to whether or not the prosecution of that case
should have been approved by the Department of Justice, pursuaJ't
to its guidelines for prosecuting vote fraud cases. "
:For our purposes today, I am prepared,to assume that charges df
''unethical
.'
and unprofessional
, . " '
conduct
' , '
have not been-I emplltlSize
'~ '--.,r-'~~i.lJ:.6:V'
519
have'l'lotbeen'-substantiated, Nevertheless, two things are cleat;
first,that Albert"I'urner,the defendant in the absentee'bajiot case;
and the" PetryC~unty' CiVic League have qrafuatically)ptproved
the ,lives of all Perry County reSidents dutirig thillast"qu!(f~" ,of'"
century and continu~ tobe a vital part of the'lif~bloo(Fofthat com·
~'un:ity;~<",,: _' ',:',''':''':: _,'i'i.' ,:':> ',;,":'.:,": ,.'.: -", ~t"·".\,-:_:- ,j ,:FI.-:
'Second; based on the,' testlmohyof A:labamaStatesetiiltllt 'HaIti<:
Sanders; absenteeball¢tingisaliessentiarlI!~aris fotas~titlrig
r;,ral,'and'partlculatly elderly bllidk' voters, "n equal OPPortunity
to participate in th~ ~lectotal process. ''''''.' "",;,.,'" "':'"
, , Foi'{hesll reaso,rts/tnePE,rryCountyv'oteftatid' case. was a>case
which,neithet the' Government hor the' defendartts could afford,t'o
lose.,":' "'",\:' ",;; ""r',,:L""i, : " , . , , , ;.'"
, At thlspoint,'h!l.vii!g testified before this Committee for lin entlte
day, I, quite/rankly, do not know whatfutth"r,explan\ltion 'oMr;
Sessions cail previM' fot'his"racially 'lnterhperament anlj,"iriilensitive
:rernafks';~":i-,,- "'.' ""',',', ''.''' ','"
Those admissions,madeunderdath, 'ate now a ,eart dTthe ,record
anWthe debate"cinthis ilominaticiri;Quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, I
do not know what 'else Mr. 'Sessions can do to etase' that, and
unle:ss·.thatca.~,be erased;'! cannot possibly support· Mr, "{ileilsibn~!
1iqtpi~ation.,'~'_, ,', _ ,',', " ': , ' . " , " _.:":, "
'Senlitor MATHilis.'Senator Denton, I understand .you have f'
statement... ,i'. . , , , . ....
+- ,- - . . '~ , '-j i . ,
'OPENIN9 STA'l'EMENTOF'SENAT(jR JEREMIAH DENTON U,,!

Se~ator :bENTbN:Tha~kyou, 1\1i-. Chaihnari. ..... '. .... : ' , "
Senator Thurrpond, tl,1echairman 'of theJ:qdiCiary, J:'0mmjttee;
was asked by {ileMtqr Do!e to make a statement,bnthe 'flqor a ort
pending matter: He:Willbe here in about 15, minutes.. I' want to
thank him for his courtesy in responding to my req",e!;t t9 have
Mr. Sessions before us "gain to giveS"natqts an opportunitlf to
look further into his qualifications or lack thereof.. I am pleased
that some have appeared to avall themselves ofthis opportunity.
We have an. enor!I)qusly ciif(lctllt responsibility in jUdging"
nominei,'s q~alifications .and his fitness for the bench, btlt in this
case our problems have been cqmpquridedby,the circulation of In-
flammatory allegations, including an anonymous and lengthy docu·
ment .circulated the daY.before the first hearing attac1>ing the
nominee with a barrage.of allegations whicp, some of us had, n~ver
heard, and some of those allegations are 'sticking in spite.of having
been disproved, ~Yen:recanted., , , '" , , " ,,_,' "c: ' " .
Mr. Sessions, in responding under oath to those surprising-alle.
gations, v.:as as unprepared as we were tOreply to the provocative
and virulent, charges.- In an .effort to be responsIve; I will agree that
he answered questions raised by the min.ority in .a ,slow,and deliber·
ati"e way, often searching his memory in an effort-to reGall any
possible substarttive foulldation for theallegiltion.. ' ,'
..I think any of Us in th"t spot would be uncon1fortabl~, Were We
asked about remarks under oath that We were alleged to have
made years ago, trying to think if wecbuld honestly say v.:e did not
ll1ake the .remarks or whether or .not they were taken qut of con·
text, that sort of thing. Evidently, it caused him the kina ofconfu·
sian it would have caused me. ' .
I can understand how some of my colleagues might have been
predisposed to be against this nomination in its early stages be·
520
ca,usethe press accounts have chronicled essentially only the in-
tlamma,tory accusations, and we, have anoth~r major example qf
that todayin the New York Times, which I W11l refer to later, anA
not published the refutations, recantations, and denials in more
than 18 ,hours ofheaiings. '.' . ' "
The linchpin of the initial opposition to Sessions is the Perry
County caSe. and I will ask my colleagues,evenifthey are now. de-
termJnated to.vote against Mr. Sessions"togive me a fair apport\!'
nity top~esent information whicjJ. is true and which ro. ight;li'ery
well change their opinions.,' , .'" ,..' " . . . '.,
, )!'ouhave mentioned. that in Mr, , Sporkin's case, although I
.workedon it.a long time; I; in the end, agreed that my opinion of
him and his qualifications,. based, on what I had learned, Will;
wrql).g. What ha,d Iieen going in simply was not proven. I ask you to
give tne.thesal).le opportunity. ",1\)
As testimony has cle!\rjy shown, that case wase bl"ck-on-plack
situation. The complainants were black. All victims whose baliots
were. altered were Iilack, and all defendants were blaCk.
As further testimony has shown,and as Department of Jllstice
officials have testified, the facts in· that case required prosecution,
Moreover, the outrageous allegations apout harassment and intimi-
dation of witnesses during the proceedings in the case, whicjJ. hav,e
been heard by. the Senators now sitting here-the· same Senators
did not hear the total disproval of those outrageous allegations, "j,.
For example, LaVon Phillips, a 26-year-old black legal assistant
to .the Perry County district attorney, specifically refuted allega-
tions in testimony concerning the genesis and handling of the
Perry COllnty voter frauclcase. .." . ."
~e .reviewedin detail the, 198~ alleg"tions andrecol).lmendations
pi'a predominantlYblac~ lP:and j?ry thatt~e p~partmentofJl!-~'
twe a):ld otjJ.er U.S. agenCIes Investigate the situatIOn" "' .. ,. ,y,;
. He gave specific testimony cif how black voters' ballots in th¢
1984 ,election were opviously changed against their desires, al!~
how black candidates had brought about the contesting of the elec;
tion. . ' '. .. ' . . . . . ,. ..:
." !'.aVon ,Phillips denied the charges ofheavy-handedness py the
FBI and prosecutors, and charges of selection prosecution. He alsil
d.e.nie.d. spe,cific .alle.gation.s'. Ofh. aras~ment "nd in..timid.atio.,I)Of)i'l .• ,:.#."
ness'es which were sensatIOnally' g'1ven here, and no denl!!l. fP6~
LaVon PjJ.illips, a responsible, truthful black man,were .heard..•,'.
He gave extensive, det"iled testimony 'about the; witn:esses'bii~
trip to Mobile, which he was oil; LaVon Phillips Was on that b!!s
trip. He testified that witnesses were not forced to go; that no one
got siCk or had a heart attack or stroke, as was alleged. ,'"
He. testified that witnesses were not photographed, fingerprinted
or required to give writing samples, as had been alleged. Phil1ili~
testif'ied th"t it was not the Government, but was, in fact'0n-eof
those Mtnesses who ,came up here and 'testified against' sessW,s
who W"s harassing witnesses on the bus trip. . " , .",' ',:'
He noted thebll\ck factions in Perry COllnty and thedivisiy'ene~
petween them, ci111ing' tjJ.is a Hblack-on-black" situation.' He'~Sl
ferred to apusive language and physical threats he had receiv~d
himself as a res\11t cif his cooperation with other law enforcement
officials in the Yoter fraud investigation .and prosecution. '
521
This is a black man trying to serve as an assistant to the District
Attorney which is investigating this situation in Perry County who
has testified to all this. . .
During the course of extensive contact. with Sessions, Phillips
said he had gotten to know'Sessions' well, had never heard him say
anything that would indicate racial insensitivity, and believed that
Sessions would make a fair and impartial judge. ' •
That i~ an understatement of what LaVon Phillips has, said
about Mr. Sessions.
I have told LaVon Phillips personally, but I wanted to state for
the record and for. this .committee, that I admire and respect him
for his courage in coming forward to testify.! hope his veracity and
courage wil:! not have beem wastMi'. ... . . ""
The sec?nd',keyp~rson.I~oUld. Iike.to di~cU:ss is the,~ey'instiga,
tor and Wltness agamst Mr.. .8esslOns,.,who IS Thomas 'FIgures, who
is also black, a former assistant U,S;·attorney·whoserved·4 years
under Mr. Sessions!....ol..o4 years.-, '."'C •
All significant allegations by Mr. Figures.have been"either refut·
ed or denied-all Of them. The veracity of Figures' 'sworn testimony
before the committee must be consideTed in light ofhis sensational
allegation that he was "regularly, 'caHed boy", by Sessions" and
others in the U;S. attorney's office. .
Now, let me ask You to listlm .carefullyaboutthe way and timing
of that allegation~the way it was made and the timing of it. '. ,-
Despite·monthsof investigation and earlier submission ofvoluini-
nous allegations against .Sessions, including the anonymous ''docu-
, ments to which I referred previously, the "boy" issue was' not
~ raised by Figures until, he appeared right there before us at the
. heaTing at which he first appeared. .
l, He made that allegation then, but in the same day he sheepishly
I:.· denied-after having said he was regularly called boy; he sheepish-
ly denied having used the word"rey,ularly." We will have Mr.' Ses-
I..•.'• sions testify again today about whet er he ever called 'him boy. •
I ;. We have already had the charge yigorously denied' by 'everyone

in the U.S. attorney's ,office who was accused of making,'such re"
marks or allegedly having overheard· thein. They all swore that
i' they never heard anything like that; and sent affidavits to that
effect. '. . . '" ".'
Mr. 'Sessionsagain will be given an opportunity to respond.to
this charge under oath. " •... r,,; ,;
..1 believe 'everyone here·, knows. how devastating such a .,charge
would'be iUt were true,. and itwas piCked 'up upon immediately by
manY'on :the Judiciary Committee and·.by much media, It Is, by the
degree of its sensationalism,·alarming, buUs'ittrue?,,,,.' ,•.,f."
If·yom.took ·a.poll in Mobile, AL,and:askedwhat would be··the
probability that.a white U.S. attorney wouldrefer.regnlarlyto a
black'assistant 'R ttorneyas boy, ,in· the sensith,e'rl1cial".environment
there; or in Detroit; dr"in.8outh Bostotli or: wherevet,.·they. would
tell you 'it ,wai. ,ridiculous. It' would be. an' absurd ,situation, .the last
thing that would happen. It would be like spitting In;someone's
'face/Ofc'ourse; it" isa ·terrible ,allegation.·but.it·IsisitnpIy..untrlle.
. ) Assistant U.S. attorney EdwardNulevich, whohad.been there 17
years>under both·".Republican and Democratic administrations,
among those who ..denied that suchalabekwasever.•.placed ·by
522
anyone, including Mr. Sessions, upon Mr. Figures-a 17-year veter-
an-perhaps pegged Thomas Figures most fairly and most accu-
rately when he called him "a good lawyer with a bad attitude."
That 1S his quote,: "a good lawyer with a bad attitude." ..' .
Vulevich went on to characterize Mr. Figures as the kind of
person who, watching, afootbalr game in a stadium with 80,000
people in the stands, woul!lconclude that whenever the players
huddle they are talking about him. ' .
Figures, by his own admission, characterized the NAACP as sulr
versive; He acknowledged sending a humorous cartoon toa Depart-
ment of Justice civil rights attorney; poking, fun at a. comment
about pot-smoking Klansmen..Now, that is Figures.
I would have to say that I find it enormously convenient and
somewhat bizarre that Figures could then not find any humor In
shnilar jok;ing comments made about the Klan by others~the same
jokes, the same kind of context. .'.
By his actions, Figures has demonstrated that people sometimes
make comments not Intended to convey their literal meaning. Fur-
thermore, according to an article in the Mobile Register dated May
1, 1986, which I have distributed to my col1eagues, Thomas Figures;
the man we are talking about, who testified on March 20 against
the Sessions nomination, had been hired on the pt.evious day,.-the
day 'before' he testified here, to defend in Perry County, AL, a,dis-
puted election plan.' .. ' " .
'. This plan, in part, was drawn up by Albert Turner, who was''j'e-
ferred to a moment. ago by Senator Biden, who unforturately. ap"
pears to have departed. This plan was drawn up by Albert Turner;
one of the three Perry County activists who claimed they wer~
prosecuted in the Perry County case for racial reasons.- When 'Fig.
t1res·iestified, he Jailed to disclose his personal and financial inter-
est in the Perry County issue. '. .'.)
. Now;'as to this election plan which Mr. Figures testified in favor
of, manyhave called it the most convoluted, gerrymandering. jllan
ever SUbmitted in the. history of· the United States. It circles a
house,. fOr example, and then goes and gets other places. in to Wl1 ,
The district. court ruled against the Turner plan and thePertY
County Commission in this case'. The judge told Figures that"tlle
way the at-large districts were drawn apparently was motivatedB~
a' desire to dict(lte who is going. to 'be elected and, who is not goil*
to be e l e c t e d . ' ' . . ...• c'';:::
.,Lwantmy colleagues, I beg my colleagues, to stop and .thiri~
about this whole situation for a minute. The principaLinfbtri1a:!\.~
on Mr. Sessions is affilln with a personal, financial, and politi,,'«l
involvement in the entire Perry County lnatter; . . " , ! " .
,The involvement includes; as we know now, direct -relationil"
with the Perry County defenda.ntsand others, many ,of wh6ri1
been: witnesses against this nomine.e. Mr: ..Figures'. testimo"" iii: "
there is any lingering douhtaboutits credibility, can:now no I01'iM~~
becons\de~ed objective. It can orily, at best, be, considered.J(linJl!
and preJudICed,'· . ' .' . i:.. _!':q>\t
.Severa,! other witnesses who testified against.Sessi9nsbeca\i~.%~f
hls·role In-the ,perry,C.?unty case changed t.helr testlmon.y.:.'.Il~;;l:l._;;~.' .
sented before a committee of. the House of Representatlves~~i¥"s\ _
even'changed testimony prepared for this committee.. ;, '::"><!{li "
523
Noone Was around to hear that except.'Senator Heflin arid me.
Sincere advocates of civil rights should recognize, that the 'real·
significance of the Perry' Gounty case-and I am talking about sin-
cere advocates of civil rights~they should recognize that the shoe
that some seek to lace up on Jeff Sessions isa shoe'that is actually
on the other foot. ; "
The real heroes of Perry County should be the Justice Depart-
mentand Jeff Sessions. The prejudiced part of the, South is angry
with the' Justice Deparlment for what they are trying to do to
mil.ke for a colorblind society; that is a minority. '
I know no one who wants more than Jeff Sessions a fair and col·-
~!blin~ society. in.th;, who!e Nation; including the SoutJ:1";lUd espe·
CIally In the distrrctm whICh he would become Federal'Judge. '
He, is being villified by liberals, men I respect for that liberality,
for working in that direction, and 'l find that most ironical.
,J have to wonder whetherblackii in other parts of the State are
worrying if they a-re next, wondering when a group'like the, Perry
County defendants wilLcometo'their county and run roughshod,
over the political process, stealing'their votes., '
Yes, ,they were, found not: guilty by ,the' jury, but 'there was no
question~anyone who reads that tdal~of the' presence of pressure
and intimidation, a sad situation whichJeffSessions was trying to
clear· up for the sake, of freedom of blackll to vote for whom they
wish; for'everyone, but in this case; it was blacks;"" ' ,
Much has be~m, made of the negative ,aspect of testimony' of
Career Deparlmen~ of Justice attorney J.Gerald 'Hebert,'who,:by
his ownasserlion;,is 'very sensitive'in racial matters. ,',
AmBior ,partof'Hebeit's'deposition to committee staff,and'slmi-
lar testirnonl/:'bycareer assistant· Hancock" accused Sessions of
halting acivI1,rights investigation. 'Now, that'isa major- charge; it
was made much of'at this·.hear'ing and in tM press. But the testi·
mony waS recanted the_ next ,day by both or.the ,men whornade the
charges; itwas in error;'I1heY'weretaiking about ,a former U.S. at-
torney in the southern district and another county. " '
So 'even that portion 'Of-Hebert's testimony which is negative is
based -upon-faulty,recollectionrof eyentsand",unclear, recollections
of specific conversations"with SessiOns. ; , '
'Moreover; Heberl testified that Sessions was most cooperative'in
prosecution ofdviL rights cases,-evenrnore so than' his Democr'atic
predecessor. 'Hebertsaid,th'iit Sessions has 'prosecuted. highly sensi.
tive, very controversial and, quite frankly/unpopular caSes in the
southern',district of: Alabaina} "Hebert -said that, when' he,needed
Sessions"help;:iit,was providedeverystepof'the way;;' ' !
, lieber't ,continued; I belleve, ,that when Jeff Sessions says' he is
going to do something, he is a,man of his ,:word and he will do it:
And soif'his-testimonybefore the,cotnmittee'-;s that he .would
foHow the !llw'faithfully,]< personally would believe him. ", " '
In partial response to a final series of questions Mr. Hebert'iwas
asked, 'at page 142 of the March 13 hearing transcrlpt is the follow-
ing:. Question: "Do you think Mr. Sessions iBa racist?" Answer
from Bebert: "No, I do not." ,QuestionL"If Mr. Sessions says he will
be' fair as: a judge"would you believe him?" Answer 'from Heberl:
"He is a man or his word and, when he,:,says something, I believe
him. And if he says that he is going to enforce the law, and that he
524
mar disa.gr~~with the law but he is going to enforce it,.I would
beheve.hlm. .' .... .
Senator KENNEDY. I am wondering if the Senator would be kind.
enough .just to yield.Jor a moment. I have.justbeennotified that
tpe Senate is.going·to be considering thegim bill at 11.: ..
Benator DENTON. That is what is delaying the chairman. .
Senator KENNEDY. That is 'an issue I happen ,to be very interest-
ed,jn. ;~ ,. ,I'
I have no intention to· objecting to this hearing moving ahead.

Senator DENTON. I have 90 seconda left, Semttor, and I appreciate'
your remark. . ,
.. So we had 'two Department' Of· Justice' civil rights attorneys. say
something that was considered to be unfavorable; out ofaboutl~,
who talked about him. Now, this is a controversial situation,',and
one of the two, Hebert, We: have already 'discussed, ,>-
The other was Hanpock,'and Hancock's only charge was refuted
and.•,He:,admitted his.arror".All"tHe'. other career:Department of Jus,
tice, civil rights 'attorneys-Kowalski, Glenn, and Bell;.tney were·
the only three career Departme'nt,ofJustice' civil rights attorneys;'
there' ',were . other attorneys 'Who testified~testified to the bigh
degree·of raciaLsensitivity. exhibited by Sessions and his aggressive;
enthusiastic cooperation hi pursuing sensitive civil, rights cases.
. Kowalski, Glenn; and Bell also testified that they would have no
problem as private attorneys bringing a black client before Ses,
sions as judge. . ' ..
Another person, Larry Thompson, a former U.s. attorney from
Atlanta, partner in the King & Spalding law firm, mem.ber ofthe
. National Bar Association, happens tobea black man..,..a man who.
in his own words, has worked very. hard over the years for' the At'
lanta NAACl'~testifiedasto an. extensive personal'and'profession;
aLrelationship with Sessions as a man and as a friend. , .
'He 'testifiea-this is Larry Thompson, a former blackU,s. atter,
ney from Atlanta, a partner in a prestigious law ··fir.m there,'a
member of the National Bar; works with. theNAACP~testified
s pecifica.lIy about work With. Sessionson:'the.drug task fo.rce"rn.-
eluding attendance at meetingsand,conferences 'where f he",:n/l.cI
roomed with Sessions on two different occasions; ' .., 'yo,
He, testified pointedly .•tha't.the •.allegations /l.na st!itements.\ll)g
testimony in opposition to Sessions-pain me, i)ut they do ,not·:com>
port with what I -know. :aboutJeff. Those were.theallegation~
before they were:refuted. .: , ' . ..' ;,,"
Thompson went on to say thaFSessions' will serve'our Natio'!i
w~ll as a :U.S, di~trict .court judge. andhew~ll do so in acomp.le~!l'l$!
fair and Impartial manner. He called SessIOns a good and honest
man' untainted by any form of prejudice. . ,.' •... , . ,,:,:::;
Now,.llsten. to that man's ,\ualifications, his believai)ility, versu's
Mr. Figures' .and Mr.Fi~res involvement and his lack ofconsistt
ency'inwhathe has testified to here. ' ..' .i
Numerous other colleagues and individuals whom Sessions has
encountered inbis. professional capacity testified as to the i)1val:u;
able assistance 'that Sessions rendered in criminal civil rights',iw
vestigations and prosecutions~help which, if not given,. would have
made it impossible to proceed with one Klan murder case, for ex'
ample.
525
'So if thehi,(,~~'a1'e,ridencY'foraI\Y'gan;e'pI~yirig':"';h'id~h'ere usu-
ally is in this cornrrHffee/Dern<ibl-at agail1 st Reii\lbIicair, bdtsorris,-
timedt stops. It certiinfy nas'stoppedwhen 'it'getsdown tbthe
J:litty,gritt.y. ...... ..... ....• '., .. ' . .•.•.. .. ,...., . ...,
Ibelievl! that thg' dirty' 'p6Iitids hlvblvedin Perty CountY/which I
gave you about 70 pages of in the l1'1w~paper, is thek.Jndof stoop-
ing that no one on t1jis cbirimitJe~ hase~ei'tllme'no on'e. ". . ,
And if~9.~ yote.agaii))lPiimfO~ !\j~~pjlo~~tme'Jt ..) .!}OpeYoU, \Vill
not, be vot~ng 111 that.C?J:lte~t, alld.!, belrev'! Y0l,1 "'Ilt!!?t.. ..• .;..
So I have appreciated the Jact,.;~era~or ·KeJ;ip.l)~l:';anq,.otliers,
~!laiXou !lave at, le'l~t he1'r4.thIs.• J', thIJ,j~;W~' s'l\ltll)~. get tp,::the
pomt. Is Jeff SesslOns, by virtUe of hIS char"cter, equcatlO).l, reput!!,
~:ill'th~~,lllggJhrJKirJm~ ~:Jf!~j1~~dY~;ie:··$k~~~~~\!~t'Ys
i!idllo~ h,'1!!rJ;9 aJ;iydel1ree'ltal\? I~ he9\'!!l!fiep,li4Jre1'resm~nt
and I beheve he IS, to be a U.S. district court Judge? .... .'.
Thankyou, Mr. Chairman"".:,'.' .. • • . . . •.. ' ..
§,!n.'lt9r.J\:JiAW,flll\-~".Se)nl,atQr ;~ellnedy:, .: .....
O~E~~I)lG: S:rATE.\"I.I:l~T"QF.SIW,-\Tp~E~\¥~RI1JV1:KtNNt:trr:
Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, the commIttee. hpshel'Jesever.
al.hea;'ings;on thi~ J:\ol:l'\in!,tipn,!,-nd thetes~imo!1.y.presenteq to..tp.e
commIttee m these hearings by the nommee)i1mself. ll11d C!tn~r
cr~di,table witneSSes .has· reyealedracial' insensivity onth~ 'patt of
thisn0tI:jp:'~~, an~)a;ck (jf'.conlIrtitm~rttto·fq)-1~1)ulltiq~underth~
1'!1\V,whlch, /ll,my..yle\V, dlsqualifi~s him fr~fu ,hqldlllg the l1J\]>or,
tantposition ofaFederal j u d g e . . , . . .."
.The~etord~p~!.tk~fbritself,and'Ido not intend totepeat all of
the racial remarks. wIHch ,Mi. Se"sioM is a1)e~edto M.ve:made,
many ofwhi"hhe,hasacknowle4gedinhi~'o,ynt~s.trm.onY". '.
'The office of Federal district judge is a sacred trust. A triaL court
jUdge wiems "nel\o~moj.\s amount dfjJowerover th~ citi~ens. who
appe"';:. ill his wur(tov[ndicat,~ th~itrlghts. His'atHtUdqantLhis
ruling shape theci.ase for appea], and unlik~ an appellate' court
judge, he cannot be telIlperedbytheneed to get another vote for
his position on the panel. He is, toajery large degreer:autonp-
mOlls,. .,'. _ _.' , i ._ ,::»,~,' ,'. '.',,.'i" ,-.,' ;",', .. ,~".'".:r~ .~,
It.'s. therefor~ imper"tlve that w~conlirmto be a' dis.trict judge
op'ly a candidate whb, has demonstrated his commitment to fairness
and equity. ..... ..• , ,. , .
Mr. Sess.ions' dis.trict is 33 percent blacl<, Those citizens.' deserve a
judge who has. demonstrated sensitivity to racial issues. Mr. Ses-
siops ha~ dOlle the opposite and I continue to believe the committee
s.hould reject his nomination.' ....
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask be plac~d· in the record a
letter from the NBA, the Na.tionalBar Association, from John
Cruinp, the executive director. I askthat it be prirtted in its entire-
ty in the record.
I would. just reference one area of it, and that is it s.ays, "In the
course of'at 'least two int~rviews, Mr. Figures s.pecifically advised
us that Mr. Ses.sions has referred to him as. boy during the period
'when Mr. Figures served as an assistant U.S. attorney.
"We ques.tioned Mr. Figures about these occurrences and found
his answers. entirely consistent and creditable."
526
I would ask that .that letter be made .a part ofthe record, .and
also another ·.insert .that ties together' the teetimony on that par,
ticular question during .the ~ouise'of the hearing.'
Senator MATHiAS. Is there objection?
Senator. DENTON, If the Senator will yield, we have never
seen-- . .
· Senator MATHIAS. Does the Senator object?
Sel1 ator PllNTON, hliserve th~ right to object,., .
Senator M,l,THIAs.%e Senator reserves the right to object.
senator DENTON, .we have never seen this statement before, this
NBAletter.Itisda~ed May 6 and it Is-":"",
Senator KllNNEDY. Well, Mr. Chairman, given the fact that"he
hl¥! objected; IW'ill read-__
· .Senator DENTON, I saidlreserve the right, I am only asking you
whlitthisis.. ." .' . . . '.. . 0
1
Senator KENNEDY. !tis a letter from the NBA, signed by Johfi
Crump. ....
Senator DENTON, Who is John Crllmp? . •.... .. ... 0
Senator KENNEDY. He is the executive director of the National

Bar Association, .' .•. ,. "..... •. . 00
Well, Mr'-Chairman, I object to the'resolution and I will takli my

time and read thliletter,
· Dear Sen:~tor, Ketmedy, 'in-connectionwi'th the' nomination' df- Jeff~tBoii~S-~'~S1bps!
the Nation:a1 Bar "Assbciation 'conducted a number of interviews with the' indii/iduals
who had petsonalknoiNledge ofthenominee'imd-his recoI'd.-. " ",,'il',::i-:i
,:,' : In order; to, assure "that jlJ.dividuals wh~m, we' ,in~rvie'Y, are entirely., candid, ,jt:,u
gener~l prs,C,ti<;e, 9~t,~~"N~~lonal ,Bar J\8~oci~~ion t?_ t;-eat ~,co·rifidential ~he i'~eritiW
at those we'lnUlrvtew; 'as' well as 'those ',detaIls of 'an mtervlew, whic:h are: not m.c~uQ:
ed in our written report., . . ",' " .".~: +, U:~
During,t~ ,Judic~ry .Committee.'s confirrnati.on :b,eariI1g, on.~~(ness, ,'rh~m~'~;Ffg~
'uz:~~~·,test;1fied' th~t h.e It~.;in fact, ,~,ee~. ipterviewed, by' the 1i~A and that :~e.t,9}d.
theNBA th!l~ he "had.1;ieen: referr~d to Q;Y :Mr. :Ses,~ions!lS lIb()y/' . ,,'." __ ' <.:J
Your office has advised us 'that you-would' like' to mow whether,::Mr,'Figut~s';.d,~
scribed" this problem· when he was int,erviewed :by'" the ,Natiortal Bar, A!3socia,ij0l.l'
,Uhder ,the ,particul~r -eircumstanges ofthis ,.case, .we have c()J;lcludedt~t,n(); P\lfpqB!
w. o.U.ld.¥." ~erved.by,a. d.,~eril'1g, t.~,o.. ~r.9s.:.,ual PO~icy.. of COl(-fi.Iqeh~iality. Mr,. ,~Jg4t:,e.~.,,(li'.JI€.a
~re~,dy' dIsclosed"on hIS own' 1nItIatIve, that' he was' mtervIewed by tlie:NBW,~a
had testified undel' oath about this particular aspect' of thatinterview;:' ,,',. .' ;,:.,);\\;,,:;'{
Since.·:the Committee evidently, regards, Mr. Figur~s~ statement,to I1S, or,~,;~~l.
thereof, as,of critical ~,rn,portance, we believe that we:9,re .under an ob:l~aH9Il;"to.~
close to the Committee our knowledge of this matter, .. : ",.:1, +H,
Mr. F'igureswas, interviewed by the NB~ in July, August and Septemher'Of;,198B:
'In .tHe coul-sa:'of at least two intetviews,·Mr,·Figures s'pecificallY'advised';\ls::~Jw~;ij:r1.
Sessions :-had referred ·to· him as ·"boy" 'during the :'period that Mr. ,I1igur~s,:s~rv~W
assista~~. U,S. attorne:y. We qu~tioned Mr. F~res about these OCCUrr~en.9~~C'~"~~'!
found hI,S ,answers entuely conSIstent and credltabl~. " . . . : . . : ' '.:',: '~~;,.,J.::.
We understand that some members of the Senate may have assumed,:;'betausett!hiJ;
matter-~as ho~,d!scus's~d in ,OUr report, that Mr. Figures 'had riot describ(ld,th~~,mgt.
cl~Wed~~~dt~~~tr;~ili~wCoI11ciittee against attempting in the .futdr~.;tW~:(~t'~>';

subje,ct matter, of the, scope of the NBA intervjews from 'tl)eultimate'cb.h~~~'W,~
report. Because NBA· investigations are often. exhaustive; at times' it :is.:ito't'P'6~~.ll~f
to iricludeoin a report.. all thE! creditable and serious information ,ofwhicllo.fi:e '~.'!'~
..". ,ij.: W:
'.' ,:':/
aware,parocularly where. as occurred in this case, the nominee.has.madea,nuqi.,~
of statements, all of which reflect a similar attitude. ." ',: ,,"
Sincerely, John Crump, Executive Director. n,
Mr, Chairman, I had indicat.ed that we are going to b~:c(t':";
ing the gun legislation on the floor now. I have not object¢'l, >
hearing, nor will I, except I would certainly hope that tho~\",wlioc
527
favor the hearing do not take the time to point o"tthe"bsericeof
various Senators who are doinll committee business on the floor.',
If that is going to be repeated;' we are goinll to have to take the
only step which isappro~riate:to uS,and that, is object to the cQm·
mittee's continued hearing. We 'are not going to getwhipsawed by
meeting OUr responsibilities on a Judiciary Committee matter on
the floQr and then have, it pointed out that we are not in "ttend-
anc~., _ ':,_ ":< _ _ _ _. _ ," ' : ,,',.
I was here at IOto hearfrom i\1r. Sessions. We have peen meet-
< '"., ',,",
ing for I hour and we have not heard frol)1 hll)1 yet. I have taken 3
minutes. , . ,,' " '
'Senator DENtON. Would the Senatpr yielci for a question?
• Sen,ator KENNEllY. No, I'will not yield ~et. , ,
So Lwant to maket)l"t 'Very clear. We have been in now,some Qf
us, fQr I hO\lra1;1d' 5 minutes. I have taken 3 l)1inutes of the com,
mittee's time, and we still have not heard it. , '
Senator BIDE:N. Would the Senator yield for a second?
Senator KENNEDY. Ye~, I.would yield. ,
Senator BIDEN., I understand that my name was taken ill vain
when I ,w~ out about not being here to listen. I Wall here, hllve
been, here the whole time. I was 01;1 the telephone because I am. told
they are going to bring up the Saudi arms sale along with, or in
tandem with, the gun bill, both of which I have a keen interest in.
And I want the Senator from Alabama to know I will probably
be in and out on both oNhose bills, but I did :not leave the premo
ises,Senator. I was right In the other rOQm.and I could hear your
lilting voice coming through between that of those talkingMQut
Saudi atms sales lind you talking about Mr. Sessions. .'", ,
But I just want to make it clear I was here and inten<!con staying
here until called to the floor;if called to the floor., ,
Senator DENTON.' Would Senator Kennedy yield for a question
about this document?
Senator KE:NNEDY; Yes.
'Senator DENTON. It is' tily understanding from reading it that
this is ananswertoa question submitted withrespectto the. issue
of whether or not Mr. Figures told the Bar Association in a sworn
statetillmt that he had been called boy. And they say, no, he did
not, but it'is cansistent with what else he had said. That is my un·
derstanding of this'i' ,.' '" . , ',' .
. I would have, to SIlY t~at they did not he.ar the rest of the he"r.
mg, 'aneVthat was the 'mtent of my preVIOUs 'remarks. Ido not
imptine either the Senator frotil M~sachusetts or the Senator from
Delaware.' , '
·>'s~na:tOrKE~l'i.EDY; Well, lam !?"ot gaing ta yield any further:
Senator DENTON. Well, let me Just ,say I- - • . ,'.' ,
"";Slifiiitilt KENNEDY; I !minot gOirig-to'yield:-! ha.ve the floor and I
do not yield for further intervention, particularly whep the letter
~lSelf'PQinfs out"",eVidently, it speaks for itself, and that is that Mr.
F;igijIes:d,i~ ;menti.on'the faet th"t he.was called, !'oy by Mr.'"Ses-
~iOljs tdthe mvestlgators'. The record WIll stand on ItS 'own.
,', ~rea11y have nothing' f"rther to -discuss. ,I thi'lk that' the commit-
We' 'ongnt to heai from 'M•. -Sessions. They' have heaidenough -from
"liif orus:" . • ., •. " , - ' ' o '
528
Senator DENTON. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would have to make, one
point in response to that, if I maybe recognized for 10 seconds.,
']'h~qHAII\",A!,! (presiding). The Senator from Alabama, and then
we WIll start gomg around properly to. all ofthe Senators.
Senator IlENToN, The '18 hours,' of heariIlgs that took place in;
volved the presence of some f)enators only for allegations and aCc~i:
sations. I do not accuse them of any wrongdoing by b~ingabsent
while those' allegations and accusations were refuted or recanted. I
just regret it, and that, isy/hat I said; lam sorry that Senator
BidEm is not here now. It is unfortunate from my point of'view be-
cause I ~hink you should hear it all. " ,C,
I admit you cannot hear i.t all, but I believe you both hayefa!r'
ness and I just wish that either you wO,\lld read the entire heariM
and understand that these gentlemen here at the NBA did '~ot
hear the refutations-and they have no reason to disbelieve M~.
Figures. There is reason to disbelieve Mr. Figures after the testimo'
ny that was given at this hearing. '
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. '
The CHAIRMAN. The distingUished Senator fr0p' Noith Caroliha,
Mr. East. '
Senator EAST. Mr. Chairman, I agree with the other membiiirs'of
the committee. I think it is imperative thatwe get to Mr. Session~
as quickly as we can, because lie is here this mOrning to defend his
record; to ci,efend his name, and to esta,blish th!lt he is qualified to
be a U.s. district judge. " , '
I would like to say, in defense of Mr. Sessions, since he has not
bee,n able, to speak here this morning at all, that the record......an,d'.~
have been here for a largepartof-thehearings-the record clearly
est!lblishes a refutation for every infelicitous remark that Mr., Ses'4
sions is alleged to havemllde., . "" •.
Now, granted, one can'be free to judge who is correct, whoistilll<
ing the truth, and the context in which the alleged commentWI!S
made. But I do think, in fairness to the man, thatit isimportant,~Q,
point oU,t that the all,e,ga,tions of social insensitivity have clea.!'IY
been refuted, or at least challenged,'Moreover, it has beencl'illl'
lenged,l would ,also 'note; by members of the blackcomrnunity.
from Alabama. ,,' ,' , ' "".:
,Those who.haci an opportunity to hear Mr. Larry Thompsop;,:lj,
u.S. attorney now practicing law in Atlanta-,well,it was extrem.•'
ly impressive testimony. And I think the testimony of Mr. ,P!lY'QIi
Phillips was extremely imPressive.. '.:
We do a disservice to this ~an to suggest that the record is cg.!!!'
pelling and.oyerwhelming in,terins ofcondemping him and mak~g
it appear that he is a racist. I think it does a great disservic~L~~
him, and! think it does a great disservice to ourrespons,ibility.)ier~
on the .Judiciary Comm!ttee to s~e t~at anyparticu!ar n9!111ll:~e'
,and thiS one, of c9urse, mcluded" IS given a falra.ndopen:~~f1'f
sponsible hearing, ,,:'. ' " " - ' , ' .\'.,i.--'d,li
One fipalcomment Lwoujdmake, Mr. ChaIrman, I a,matl~iol!s
to get on, an"ious I think as others are; to let Mr. Sessions s)loKi!!
for himself., HoY/ever, I would like to make one final COmrileilei'1
think it is interestim~ to note that at no time, ~i<cept for t!)eP~,ry
County case-and l' would submit th~re again that is not!i' c'Qn~l.Jlr
sive case-there is no evidence in his long record of public's~~q~
529
indicating that racial' prejUdice has interjected itself into his con-
duct as a U.S. attorney or an assistant U.S. attorney in the actual
conduct of cases or'matters inherently related thereto. lhave not
heardone bit of testimony to that' ~ffect. " . . . . • . .' . .
We have here a man who' has beenengiiged, not in'private prac'
tice, but extensively in the 'public arena. T t1iink thesestateinents
might be more meaningful if've had no otHer record to go' upon,
but We do..extensive exposure in the 'public' arena. .' ... ' .. '
.Here again, Ttepeatwe' have seen nO 'evidence indicating a ra-
cially-prejudiced manin the Conduct of that office., All of the testi'
mony that h!,s. appeare~ has 'r,el~ted to alleged comments made in'
.' :
private. Then, again, w~ ar,e back to thisfunda'm,~/ifal question of
, l who 0.6 you wish to ,believe. '. .... ' : : .' ". '
But we allkriow-and 1 think particularly people .in public Iife-
we all know hOW ~asy it is to be maligned and condemned by the
casual remark, the allegation, th!i'charge.Alld 1 repeat, I 0.6 hope
that we give this man an opportunity to be' heard, and to b.eheard
fairly; and to make oUr judgment accordingly. ,
'I'hank you, Mr. Chairman. '. , ' ,
Senator DENTON. Would you yield for .5 seconds, Senator E8.st?,
1 want to acknowledge that you were here, a disproportionate
amount of time. 1 mentioned Senator Heflin because he was here
the longest. Senator DeConcini was, often here, Senator Simon, and,
several other~. ." ., , ." "
I do not believe anyone chose to be l\bsentbecause theY want.ed
to not hear. the truth, but much truth has been missed because of
the'absence of Senators, unfortunately, and that is' 'whatll1)ellnfto
comment on befo~e. And Lam just hoping the recol'd.;viIl1;>e,looi<ed
at bY t!)ose.who were not here;
T!)an,lt YOll', Senlltor, East. ,
Hefli!,.. , " , ' f
. Senator HEFLIN:. I do not have any stat!iment,other than ,th!i fact
that Iapproachothe advise,·andconsent responsibilitr' iothis case.
as a judge sitting on the·bench. I want to listen to·altha evidence
and I would like to proceed and hear the witness.
Senator MATHIAS; Heiir; hear.
The CHAIRMA.'~. The distinguished Senator, from. Arizona; Mr.
DeConcini.
Senator DECONCINI. ,Mr. Chairman; thank you. ,Mr. Chairman,
first I want'to>sayTregret,thatattendance has got to be a,major,
deciding factor tllthe mind ofthe 'Senator from Alabama. "
1 look at these records. 1 have my staff look at them; I read them
when'they areconttoversial cases. I have tried to be'here. I do riot
like the idea of having it indicated here that if you are not here for
every minute; there is something wrong.. '" . ' '
:, He'khows as well as I do, and T say this with all respect to him,
that you j~st cannot be every place, and that does not lessen' the
importafice thatl give to this nomination or any other nomination,
~ilftlcularly those thahre controversiaL ..' '.'. '
,1 have looked at the record so far with Mr. Sessions. I have not
'actually decided what I am going to do with this nomination, but I
am greatly disturbeo..' I ain here today to'listen to Mr, Sessions, but
530
I am going to have to)eave in alJOut 40 minutes, or less; because,of,
ot~i:'taf~~~l~6nk~~w his attit\lde aboutsome of the alleg~tidrti
that have been made and the'statemerits that hayepeen m~d.'
here,,-statements8uchas the.A,QLU a"d.the N"atlonal Co\inci\,of
Churqhe8a':Eicorriinu~i~t-insp:ir~d!\cnll1-\n:,{\mer1can.·•."... :' '.. ..•., i'./l>
, ".N~w,: I fiaw,(re,~dthe,recorif wh~~e he said tp,osetp,in~~vv'Ei~~;
taken 01-\t of conte,!,t a,:,d(nqt,!l1e,!,ntm.tha~ wa)'.He,,!,dimre(j,:t!i¢";
K;\Ic ~h'\1',l);la!L",,:tllhedlsc9v~~sd that they slIl?h~d I;'~~,J u1,1\\~r
stap'(j ftorntherscor4 that perhaps that was saldmjest.I ",o1-\\d,
li!<~~fl~i'l~~hijVli~fe~~Jt~~~~~t ~us~~~~;ht regarding" t~o~#;
things, it is not' going to weigh' any less or a,,:~ gre"ter' because!;
intelldto re,ad his statements and carefullY weigh therri:,' '.....• '.. ,r'
There, are many other problem areas 'that this nomination)fa.s
bl"o1-\gli~ forward, I am notmaldng a j1-\dgJllerit oriideqlogy.I'!ii}ie"
votedfo! SOln.. qf theinost liberal judges tjuit were putforthsi'l\'C'~;
I have been hi the Senate for 10 years when PresidentCart.er Jiut;
them up here, and I disagreed with' them on ~ 'nu1"ber ofiSil*lis~"
but theY had the temperament 'lIld theycohvinced this.,Seftiltor
that they could make adecision based on what tire lawwasand·lt,ot
based on their own strong feelinlls or oppositiqn to that lawi ."
That is how) look at Mr,~essions, lVJ:r, Manion, and others,'itfra;
my judgment will be made by lookin'gatthe record as well!lsi,n~,'
t,ening to the eloquent statements of all of us on the cOIiurlittee':''io"
Thank you,Mr, Chairman:'.. " ' / " , "",
The CHAIRMAN, The'disting1-\ished Senator from>Illinois;did,Yotl"
hlive!lstate\!ilmt? " , ' ','" ,••. ,)!" ""~,,,
'Senator' SiMON, Mr. Chairman, just very briefly, fhst,. my lit.<iff
has called my attention to the fact that the Mobile Press Register'
has~ bee,,: run,,:ing excerpts, but in .some cases these excerpts h:~ye
not been' 'ilCcutate," ~ , ' . ' " " " , . , '''".
For ¢xample, Senator Kenned~ asked "Did you use the word'ilff.1
American"in describing the activities of the NAACPahd ACLl!J'~.'!
They have Mr. Sessions giving an answer, "When they invdlve'
themselves in prolnotingun-American 'positions, my words weI's'
that their positions Were considered un-American, I do notbelievEl"
anyone has stated that I consider theNAACPun-American!""!"'J;
In fact, the answer is; "Yes; as J;stated,"~an appreciablydiffer~
ent answer. ,,;,;"'>~'{I
1 would just ,add one, other .point, Mr, Chairman, 1 do not think
the question is the integrity or the ability of Mr. Sessions, not, as,.I\
look at things, is the Perry County situation One that should, be,ide"
cisive, It is a judgment calL ' .... f,!
, I do think there are two matters that do trouble me aboulit\1iil
nomination, One is, do his off-the-wall remarks display a .lack·g{
sensitivity in this whole area of race? ,And ,Is such lack of sensitiY;.
ty appropriate for someone who is going to becOlJ1e a Fedel'al
judge? '~ , . 8"r!
And in that connection, a second question is, will his nomina,tiojl'
convey to people an insensitivity on our part; and will they .jiil"$
confidence that, in fact, if:he is approved, he will administer j]lstiM
fairly to everyone? .' . ' '.' .' .. ' '>Cia
I have
" "..
no further comments right now, -
' . "
Mr.:Chairman.
.' . ,",'
531
The CHAIRMAN. Any more statements?
[No response.]
The CHAIRMAN. If not, .stand up, Mr. Sessions, and be sworn.
Will the testimony you give in this hearing be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SESSIONS. It will. ' "
The CHAIRMAN. Have a seat.
. Theabl~ Senator from Maryland.
S,enator MATHIAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairniim.
The CHAIRMAN. We have 10 minutes for each Senator for ques-
tioning.
Senator MATHIAS. Mr. Sessions, this committee is noturifamil\ar
, withcontfoversial nominations, We have quite a few, for one
~, reason or another, and that is not a bad thing in itself because it
tends to bring the issues to the surface and give us an opportunity
to view them objectively. '
I must say to yoU, however, that no individual nomination'in
recent years has attracted as much attention as yours has. My
office is literally swamped with letters from people who support
you, people who think you should be confirmed, and letters froni
!' people who oppose yoUr confirmation. '
Why do you think your nomination has attracted so much atten-
tion?
TESTIMONY OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, OF ALABAMA, TO BE
U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALA-
BAMA
Mr. SESSIONS. I think that is an excellent questidn; Senator Ma-
thias. In my opinion, there is probably no more sensitive area than
race relations. It was just 20 years ago when a substantial majority
of blacks in the area of the .State 1 am from were blatantly denied
the right to vote and basic civil rights that all Americans take for
granted today.
In the middle of the Perry County case was the 20th anniversary
of the Selma to Montgomery march which Albert Turner was a
leader of, not something that we were aware of or given any
thought to when the investigation began, but that developed. It is a
very sensitive issue.
I do not think you can-and I said this publicly and was
quoted-I do not think you can call anybody anything more serious
today than that they are racially biased and prejudiced. I think
that is just horrible.
I think people who know me in Mobile know that is not true.
One person told me, "you are one of the good guys; I cannot believe
this." I feel like I am one of the good guys. I feel like that I am
being caricatured in a way that is not true.
And I can understand people in this country being concerned; I
can understand it. I do not like that guy I am reading about in the
papers either. I have committed myself to enforcing the law as U.S. ,
attorney. Mr'. H,ebert says if I say I will enforce the law, I will. 1.
will tell this committee what the law is I will enforce. '
He says I will tell you the truth, and I have tried to tell this com-
mittee the truth as best I Can. I commit that to you. But it is that
63-867 0 - 87 - 18
532
sensitive area-Selma, AL, somebody named .1efferson Beauregard
Sessions III,
I do not know what all has generated this, but I think those are
some of the factors, and I am mortified, I feel terrible that the De-
partment of Justice, my President, Senator Denton, have been em·
barrassed because of this situation. Nothing hurts me worse than
that.
But they have analyzed it and maintained their faith in me, and
I am deeply appreciate of that, and the people in Mobile that have
supported me. . '
Senator MATHIAS. Mr. Sessions, in light of the statement you
have just made, let me ask you a little bit about the episode in
which you were quoted as saying that you had agreed that a ciyil
rights lawyer was a disgrace to his race. "
Your response, as I recall the record, was not that yOIl denied
saying something like, "maybe he is," but that you really did not
know why you had made that comment.
I am sure you know, and the members of this committee know,
that that kind of epithet, "disgrace to his race," has been leveled
probably more times against members of the Federal bench than it
has against members of any other group.
I think, in the connection, of Judge Wisdom in Louisiana. I think
or Judge Waring in South Carolina, and Judge Frank Johnson in
your home.State of Alabama. No men have done more than these
to enforce the law under the most difficult circumstances.
In the darkest hour of racial problems, these and other Federal
judges stood almost alone, upholding the structure of constitutional
government. I regret to say that everyone of them was at one time
or another villified, ostracized, and condemned by the very circle of
society from which he had sprung. If not literally called a disgrace
to his race, everyone of them was called something similar, but in
my opinion everyone of them was a credit to the republic.
If you are confirmed as a U.S. district jUdge and if you do ascend
to the bench, there may be a day when, in some people's view, you
will be a disgrace to your race. '
My question to you is just as simple as this: Are you ready to do
that? Are you prepared to have your friends, your neighbors,
people with whom you have grown up, say about you what youa!·
lowed to go uncontested about that civil rights lawyer?
Mr. SESSIONS. Senator Mathias, I agree with you that the mem'
bers of that old fifth circuit were great leaders for America. :1
admire the judges that you have mentioned, I admire Judge Pitt-
man in Mobile, a great judge. He took the same abuse, unfairly in
many instances-in almost all instances, I suspect.
Judge Pittman and I have talked. We have discussed what it
takes to be a good Federal judge, and he told me this, and I believe
it. He said the most critical characteristic is intellectual honesty,
being able to see the law regardless of whethE;r you agree with itdi'
not, and follow that law regardless of the consequences. .
I have dOne' that as U.S. attorney. I have taken positions that
were difficult. Senator Biden mentioned that the case in Petry
County was One the Government could not lose.
533
My comment to that. would be it was a case the Government
could not fail to prosecute. So I did my duty, as I see it, in that
case. '
But I understand your question, and I have said lots' of times I
am well aware that if I put On that robe, I am going to be called
upon to make decisions that will make people angry-friends of
mine very angry-and I am prepared to do that without any doubt.
Senator DENTON. Would the Senator from Maryland permit me
to mention that you did not refer to Senator Mathias' mention of
the disgrace to the race incident?
. Mr. SESSIONS. All right
Senator Mathias; Mr. Hebert. testified, apparently, with some
rather certainty about that. I was asked about it after only having
heard it; I believe-his statement-the day before.
I tried my best to recollect how that could have happened, said I
did not believe that about the lawyer in question. He was one of
those lawyers, by the way-no question about it; bringing those
cases to the Fifth Circuit.
And the rulings they were entering were based, many of them,
on Mr. Blackshear's lawsuits and his briefs and his pleadings. And
I said it just could not be that I had said anything like that.
I have thought about it later and I can tell this-and although I
cannot remember everything in that conversation, I am absolutely
convinced that I did not call Mr. Blackshear a disgrace to his race,
and I did not acknowledge it in any form.
Senator MATHIAS. My question, I might say to the Senator from
Alabama, was really not so much relating to repetition of Mr. Ses-
sions' testimony on this subject as it was whether he was prepared
to have the same thing said. about him as a result of the responsi-
bilities he would have as a Federal judge. I think he has answered
that question.
Mr. Chair!nan, I see my time has .expired.
The CHAIRMAN. The able ranking member, Senator Biden.
Senator BInEN. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMA"1. Did you want to make any statement to the com-
mittee?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, I had some notes and I would like
to make a .statement to the committee, if it is appropriate at this
time, if the other Senators are--
The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may go right ahead.
Mr. SESSIONS. I firmly believe that the cornerstone of our judicial
system is a commitment to truth, and therefore I have welcomed
investigations by the American Bar Association, the FBI, the Na·
tional Bar Association, and the minority investigator from this
committee. I told Senator Biden I would be glad to have him come
down.
The evidence has been gathered, and I submit to this committee
that nothing has been advanced to justify not recommending my
confirmation and I remain convinced that after a fair and· full
analysis, you will so conclude.
Let me summarize some of the things that were said. I noticed
one thing that happened in the committee, that people will men·
tion things like my experience and Perry County, they throw those
534
out, but and then they back off. But let me say a few things about
experience. '
I believe my office is one of the finest U.S. attorneys offices in the
country. I have tried 17 cases before a jury as U.S. attorney, one 7
weeks against a lawyer and two judges; one, 5 weeks against a
banker and a lawyer, I think that is one of the heaviest trial loads for
any U.S. attorney.
And in 13 years of my active practice, I have never had a case
·reversed by an appellate court. Those who know me best, who work
with me on a regular basis-what do they have to say about. me?
The 10 Mobile County circuit judges, all Democrats, one of whom
is black, support my confirmation, The Mobile bar association exec·
utive committee has unanimously reaffirmed its confidence in me
after the initial hearings. All the State district attorneys in my dis·
trict have endorsed my confirmation. My immediate predecessor
testified for me in my behalf at this committee.
But some of you may say, OK, we agree you run a good office;
you are an experienced trial lawyer; you have a good reputation;
you are popular, But what about your record on civil rights?
Look at the record, It will show that I have been impartial.
Through fiscal year 1985, I find that of approximately 200 defend·
ants that we have tried before a jury-less than 40 were black.
My office has been aggressive in civil rights. At the time I took
office as U.S. attorney, I assigned assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas
Figures to handle civil rights, He continued in that position until
he voluntarily resigned.
I specifically directed him at the time I initially talked with him
to advise me of any problems that he saw in the civil rights area,
because I wanted to ensure that those matters were properly han·
died. Mr. Figures .admitted that in his testimony before this com·
mittee.
The record is clear. I have never refused to allow Mr. Figures to
proceed with any civil rights case. I have never assigned civil
rights cases to another lawyer other than Mr. Figures, I have never
reassigned civil rights cases from Mr. Figures to keep him from
prosecuting it or for any other reason.
On several occasions, I told him that I would assist him in the
trial of a civil rights case or I would personally try the case if he
thought it was appropriate,
Further, five career attorneys from the Civil Rights Division of
the Department of Justice have testified before this committee. Not
a single one of those attorneys have maintained that I have refused
or failed to act properly with regard to any case that has ever come
before me.
I have supported the Civil Rights Division in the cases, as they
testified, some of which were unpopular. Barry Kowalski and Bert
Glenn, who worked with me closer than Mr, Hebert did-and we
spent more hours together-and Dan Bell of the Civil Rights Divi·
SlOn, who knew me back when I was an assistant U,S. attorney in
the mid 1970's, each stated to this committee they would have no
hesitation in bringing a civil rights case before me.
Well, you may further ask, what about this Perry County vote
fraud case? You indicted three prominent black civil rights leaders
for voter fraud and they were acquitted on all charges,
535
Th.at invest.igation arose fro.nl complaints by black elected offi-

cials and was. founded on strong evidence indicating that the de-
fendants had organized a campaign to collect and alter absentee
ballots of black voters. .'
Into the fourth year of my term, that was the first ctiticismwe
have had in civil rights. Clearly, it turned out to be a springboard
for the opposition to my confirmation.
Without going into the details of that case, which we did in great
extent earlier, I want to point out a few things. It was investigated
and reviewed by the Department of Justice, who approved the in-
vestigation-and, actually, one of their attorney drafted the indict-
ment, the Subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights of the
House Judiciary Committee, investigators from the Southern Prop-
erty Law Center on behalf of the defendants, the eleven defense at-
torneys who participated in the trial and their investigators.
And an in-depth review was conducted by the investigator from
this committee, who conducted interviews with the defense attor-
neys regularly, and the defendants in the case, and included a visit
to Perry County itself.
After all of this, there has yet to be shown any wrongdoing by
me or my office, and there will not be. This case was a public cor-
ruption case, not a civil rights case. If it were presented to me ten
times, I would prosecute it ten times. Perhaps it was not good judi-
cial politics, but I have never played politics with my office and I
will never decline to prosecute a case because it may cause me dis-
advantage.
As U.S. attorney, there can be no untouchables. I have prosecut-
ed judges, lawyers, politicians, businessmen, bankers, and, yes, civil
rights leaders. There can be no untouchables in our legal system.
Well, you say, Mr. Sessions, you have answered those questions,
assuming you have. What do you say about theSe racially-insensi-
tive statements? .. .
Let me speak frankly. All of us know that when the confidence
of a private conversation is breached by a party with ulterior mo-
tives or one who simply misunderstands what the speaker says or
means, the speaker can always be embarrassed..
I enjoy repartee and frequently engage in devil's advocacy. In
short, when I talk to friends, I do not guard every word that I say
because I think that I know they know that my commitment to .
equality and justice is real, and they would not twist my words or
misinterpret what I am saying to them.
The last time I testified before you, I believed that if I honestly
replied to your questions that I would have no problem in being
confirmed. I tried not to impune the motives of those who provided
information against me. I trie.d not to call them liars.
In fact, my reaction was to attempt to reconeile their statements
with my own recollection of events, which was different. These ef,
forts. and my explanations of how these certain statements attrib-
uted to me were made, were unfairly branded as admissions.
I did not admit insensitive statements then, nor do I now. I deny
as strongly as I can express it that I am insensitive to the concerns
of blacks.
Now, Mr. Figures specifically asserted that I called the NAACP
and other organizations un-American organizations. This is not
536
true and is a terrible mischaracterization of the conversation I had
with him approximately 4 years ago. I described that conversation
previously. I will not do so again unless this committee asks fur-
ther questions.
But it was an inn.ocent conversation referring to the fact that
civil rights organizations and the National Council of Churches
lose their credibility when they take positions that other people, or
pe9ple, consider un-American.
He said I spoke-in his testimony, that I "spoke as a man grave-
ly concerned by the threat which he believed these organizations
posed to American values." That is not true, members of this com-
mittee. That is absolutely false.
The NAACP is a great organization, as I have stated, and it has
contributed magnificently to the advancement of rights of minori-
ties in the South.
As to the SCLe, I have had at least three personal conversations
with the Reverend Joseph Lowerr, its leader. Our office has
worked with him concerning a case In Mobile. He expressed his ap-
preciation to us for our courtesies that we extended to him.
I know what I believe about these organizations-the NAACP,
the National Council of Churches, the SCLC, the ACLU. These or-
ganizations are essential organizations in a pluralistic society. I
welcome their role. They are quintessentially American organiza-
tions. They are not un-American organizations.
Another charge by Mr. Figures was that I was serious when I
made the comment that the Ku Klux Klan was OK until I learned
they smoked pot. Amazingly, he asserts that I "only objected to the
Klan because of drug use by its members."
This assertion is ludicrous. It is an indication-I hate to sar it-
that he has an agenda that goes beyond an accurate recollectiOn. of
the facts. My retort was made 2 years after the murder of a young
black man, Michael Donald, by the Ku Klux Klan. It was made
during investigations of the Klan by my office.
I had just learned that the investigation had revealed that the
Klansmen had left some meeting, and gone. to another one, and
smoked pot. The comment ridiculed the Klan. I detest the Klan. I
insisted that the prosecution of the Klansman, Henry Hayes for
the murder of Michael Donald be handled in State court, where he
would be subjected to the death penalty or life without parole-
penalties not available in Federal court. .
In fact, State Judge Braxton Kittrell, who testified before you on
my behalf in this hearing, sentenced him to death, although I be-
lieve it has been reversed to life without parole at this time.
Later, our office prosecuted Benny Jack Hayes and his wife-he
was the head.of the Ku Klux Klan in Mobile-for mail fraud. He is
serving time in prison right now. We sought the maximum penalty
in that case.
Barry Kowalski and Mr. Bert Glenn testified that they pad
heard the statement. They considered it a joke and were appalled
that it would be suggested that this comment reflected my VIews 9n
the Klan. "
It has been very painful, members of this committee, to.read
comments in the national media and hear comments on the radio
suggesting that that was a serious comment by me. I ani outraged
537
at that. I abhor their bigotry and hatred, and am shocked that Mr.
Figures or anyone else would suggest otherwise.
Now, this committee has seen Mr. Paul Hancock, an attorney
with the Civil Rights Division, appear here and recant his sworn
testimony that I. h!,d blocked an investigatioll in Conecuh County.
It turned out that.he was gravely mistaken in that assertidn and,
in fact, it was a.nother U.S. attorney in another county altogether.
Before that recantation, I would like to point this out to you, not
for the substance of that event because I know it is not significant.
Mr. Hebert testified about the matter, and Mr. Hebert recalled it
also.
He quickly replied, "The incident yoU are referring to is one I
have personal knowledge of." He also stated, "And we found out
that, in fact, Mr. Sessions had gotten in contact with the agents
and called off the investigation."
Senfltor Biden asked, "What was your reaction to thflt?" Mr.
Hebert said, IIWell, as I recall, we Were rather upset about it." Fur-
ther, Mr. Hebert stated, "All I can remember is that the conversa-
tion, as I recall, took place between Mr. Hancock and Mr. Sessions,
and Mr. Sessions just indicated he did not think the investigation
should go forward."
Now, I simply refuse to believe that Mr. Hancock, who came in
here and apologized for his error, or Mr. Hebert were deliberately
out to discredit me or embarrass me. But I want to point this out:
When I was asked about it, I did not call them liars. I did not say
this is unbelievable. I merely said there must have been some kind
of mistake. I could not recall anything like that.
I even admitted there rnay have been a phone call like that. I
just could not believe that two career attorneys frorn the Depart-
ment of Justice could be so mistaken about such a significant
event.
Now, this matter is a dramatic indication, I suggesCofwhat can
happen when recollections of past events go awry. Recollections of
old private conversations are· certainly far more susceptible of inac-
curate memory and bias than an actual case. Thank goodness there
was a record that we could go back and certify that this was an
error.
What is upsetting to me is that the fact of this incident, which
took place 5 years ago, could have colored Mr. Hebert's view of me
and caused him to place a sinister connotation on perfectly inno-
cent comments that I have made subsequently. It could have biased
his recollection and evt3n his entire opinion of me.
I will point out that Mr. Hancock and Mr. Hebert both conveyed
that information, apparently, to the American Bar Association
when they did their evaluation of me, and I think that had I been
sitting as a member of that Bar Association' Review Committee, I
would have been concerned if a U.S. attorney had unilaterally
blocked a legitimate investigation of a civil rights case. But it did
not happen.
Now, certain news accounts have suggested-they talked about
Mr. Blackshear and I have covered that.
I was also flabbergasted to hear Mr. Figures say that he was reg-
ularly called "boy" in my office. He said I called him this, twice. I
state categorically that I have never called Mr. Figures "boy".
538
As Senator Denton rightly remarked, this statement is a carica-

ture of the reality of a professiollal office or any, really, place in
the South today. .
Mr. Figures stated that two career attorneys in mr office, Mr.
Rollison and Ms. Jenny Grenade, heard me refer to him as "boy".
They have denIed that by affidavits submitted to this committee.
He further said that Mr. Edward J. Vulevich, 17 years an assist-
ant,also had called him "boy". Mr. Vulevich sat and testifie.d in
this rOOm and he categorically denied that in his testimony.
"Boy" is a reprehensible term to use to .describe a black man in
the South. Because of the history of that term, I have never used
the word "boy" to describe a black, nor would I tolerate it in my
office.
As you can see, I simply did not make some of the statements
that had been attributed to me, and the others were greatly distort-
ed, tending to create a caricature of me. It is this caricature that
you are asked to reject, not the Jeff Sessions that is sitting before
you today.
I am not the Jeff Sessions my detractors have tried to create. I
am not a. racist. I am not insensitive to blacks. I supported civil
rights activity in my State. I have done my job with integrity,
equality, and fairness for all. I have served well as U.S. attorney. I
am proud of that record, and I ask that you will consider that
when you are making your evaluation.
I would be pleased to answer any further questions you may
have.
Senator BIDEN. Mr. Chairman, I passed my time because there
was not anything upon which to speak at the time, but I would like
to. ask my questions now, if I ma~.
The CHAIRMAN. The distinguished Senator from Delaware, the
ranking member.
S.enator BIDEN: Mr. Sessions, let me ask you a question. When
you testified the first day under oath, is it not true that you were
told what questions you would be asked? It is the normal process.
I mean, did not majority tell you they were going to ask you
questions about these allegedly racially biased remarks and the
NAACP? Were you not aware of that a full day ahead of time, at
least?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, the deposition, I believe, of Mr. Hebert and
Mr. Hancockwere taken the afternoon before.
Senator BIDEN. No, no, that is not what I meant.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand that. I was aware--
Senator BIDEN. Did you not know that the chairman was going to
ask you the question that he asked you about the NAACP remark?
Mr. SEssIONS. Yes--
SenatorBIDEN. Did you not know you were going to be asked....,.-
Mr. SESSIONS [continuing]. Although I understood it related
merely to Mr. Figures' statement.
Senator BIDEN. I understand that. Were you not also told by the
chairman that you should be prepared to answer the question re-
lating to the National Council of Churches?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. So it was not like you were all of a sudden hit
with this notion. I mean, it seems like a selective rendition of histo-
539
ry here, as I listened to your opening comment today, as if some·
how these remarks sort of caught you off guard and you were
knocked, out of the blue "nd you did not have time to'thmk about
them and you were just trying to sort of balance, you know, what
the people said who allege you said these things with, what you
thought, \' ,"
I mean, you were fully prepared when you walke~ in here, were
you not, the first day? '\
Mr, SESSIONS, Senator Biden, I think the biggest,prbblem I had in
my testimony related to my inabili~y to respond well, to Mr, He·
bert's allegations and Mr, Hancock's, I I
SenatorBIDEN:Let us forget about'Mr, Hebert and Mr, Hancock,
Mr, SESSIONS, I 'understand that, "
Senator BIDEN, I tell you what, I think your biggest problem
from this Senator's standpoint is your recollection the first day and
your recollection the last day, Let us just go to the first day of the
hearing, before ,Mr, Hebert or anybody; right out of the box, the
chairman doing what I would do if I were chairman, attempting to
give you an opportunity to respond to what, in fact, were the clear
and known allegations you would have to respond to, ,
I think the chairman and the staff did exactly what they should
have done, exactly what I would have done were I chairman-
threw you up the questions, as we say in politics, in softball form,
The CHAIRMAN. Would the Senator yield a minute?
Senator BIDEN. Yes, sure, I will.
The CHAIRMAN. I would like to make the statement that I did 'not
talk to him before the hearing. He did talk to the investigator and
the investigator told him some of the charges that had been made,
and I think he told him that it would be necessary for him to
ansWer those charges.'
As I understand, there was not any collusion or anything of that
kind.
Senator BIDEN. I am not implying that, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. But he was telling him that these are matters
that needed to be answered.
Senator BIDEN. Absolutely.
The CHAIRMAN. I did not confer with him beforehand personally.
I have been impressed with his sincerity, his fine record, and
unless something comes up that I do not foresee, I expect to vote
for him.
You may proceed.
Senator BIDEN. I understand that, Mr. Chairman, and that is the
point I am trying to make. The way these hearings work, and it is
appropriate-"the appropriate way is that Mr. Short and my investi·
gator, Mr. Govan, go and look at the allegations and they straight-
forwardly tell the nominees, as best we can, beforehand, these are
the allegations and this is what you are going to have to respond
to.
I wa~ not iJ::nplyi.ng coll!,sion at all. I thi,nk you have done the Job
as ,Chlllrman m thIS hearmg exactly how It should be done. I thmk
the entire investigation staff team has done what they have to do.
Mr. SESSIONS. I welcome that.
Senator BIDEN. But I just want to make it clear that when you
listen to that statement, though, it sounds like-your statement
j
off guard by these things.

540
today, Mr. Sessions-it sounds like somehow you were just caught
,
Let us just go back to the first day, the first question. The first
I
question was from the chairman: "Mr. Sessions, it has come to the
attention of the committee that certain comments have been attrib-
uted to you. Mr. Sessions, would you tell the committee if any of
the following comments were made by you. were they accurate,
and in what context were they made?" .
Now, you knew you were going to be asked that question, did you
not?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I had seen that allegation;in a document.
Senator BlDEN. No. Answer my question, if you would. Did you
know you were going to be asked that question?
The CHAIRMAN. Well, let him answer. He has got a right to ex-
plain it.
Senator BlDEN. I understand he has a right to explain it, but I
would like an answer. Did you know you were going to be asked
that question? .
Mr. SESSIONS. I knew that that was an allegation pending before
the committee and that--
Senator BlDEN. I am not asking you that.
Mr. SESSIONS [continuing]. I would be asked about it by some-·
body.
Senator BlDEN. You knew you were going to be asked about it,
did you not?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, yes.
Senator BlDEN. Right. Now, so you came into this room--
Mr. SESSIONS. I just was not told exactly that was the-who was
going to ask it.
Senator BlDEN. Let me put it this way: Did you have any doubt
you were going to be asked to explain the allegation regarding the
National Council of Churches?
Mr. SESSIONS. No.
Senator BIDEN. So you came prepared to respond to that, correct?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. Now, let us read your response, and let me read
the rest of the question. This is still the chairman-excuse me; let
me back up; .
"Mr. Sessions, would you tell the committee if any of the follow,
ing comments were made by you, are they accurate, and in what
context were they made? The National Council of Churches, the
NAACP, the SCLC and PUSH are un-American organizations with
antitraditional American values."
Mr. Sessions: "Mr. Chairman, the best I recall, that took place
like this. My assistant, former assistant, Thomas Figures, who is
black-his office was right across the hall from mine for 4 years.
We went over and I chatted in his office and philosophized, I call it,
a number of times, and I was over there regaling about the Nation-
al Council of Churches.
"I am a United Methodist and we fund them and my money goes
to them, but I have complained about them and I was making this
point, as I recall this conversation. And I said, you know, when an
organization like the National Council of Churches gets involved:in
political activities and international relations that people consider
541
to b~ un-Am~rican, th~y los~ th~ir moral authority and th~ir abili-
ty to function or to sp~ak with authority in public because people
seeth~m as political.
"And 1 also barrel~d on and 1 said that it was tru.e that"-excuse
me-"And 1 barreled on and said that that is true. Th~ NAACP
and oth~r civil rights organizations, wh~n th~y I~av~ basic discrimi-
natory qu~stions and.star.t g~tting into matters such as for~ign
policy and things of that natllre and other political issu~s-and
that is probably somethin~ 1 should not have said, but 1 really did
not mean any harm by it.' .
And th~n, skipping, thesam~ day, again ~stabIishing th~ fact
that you clearly w~r~ awar~ that you would be asked about this
and came fully prepar~d, in response to Senator Kenn~dy--
Mr. SESSIONS. Well--
S~nator BIDEN. You can answer both of th~se when 1 r~ad them,
OK?
On pag~ 107, you said, "As 1 b~lieve 1 stated, y~s, b~fore you
cam~, which is 1 said that when they involv~ themselves in promot-
ing un~American positions or-positions""'-my words were considered
un-American, and particularly for~ign policy issu~s and that sort of
thing. Th~y los~ support, y~s.
"But 1 hav~ not, 1 do not b~li~ve"-interruption by S~nator Ken-
nedy: "Wait a minute. What foreign policy matters are you talking
about?" Mr. Sessions: HOh, the sanctuary movement, the Sandinis e
tas, you know. 1 gav~ that kind of stuff' -interruption, Senator

Kennedy, and so on.
Now, how could anyone conclude from reading your statement
the first day that you did not acknowledge that you r~ferred to
them under certain circumstances as being un-American? That is
my question to you: .
Mr. SESSIONS; Senator Biden, the first ansWer is essentially what
1 said earIi~r today, that 1 had .a conversation in which 1 said when
the organizations as we described involve themselves in interna-
tio!1al relations that people consider to be-many people consider
to be un-American, that that hurts their cause.
1 did not-l specifically deni~d right after that~Icertainlydo
not think the National Council of Churches, and certainly not the
NAACP, as b~ing un-American. 1 w~nt on to talk about the
NAACP.
Sena:lor BIDEN. I understand your answer. How do you explain
your answer to Senator Kennedy, then? How could a rea.sonable
conclude that when you said, andl quot~, page l07-do you have it
there?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
. Senator BIDEN. Page 107, line 22: "As I believe 1 stated, yes,
b~fore you came, which was 1 said when they involve themselves in
promoting un-American positions or positions, my words were Con-
sidered un-American, and particularly foreign policy issues and
that sort of thing."
And thep Senator Kennedy goes on to ask you what sort of for-
eign policy things makes them un-American, and you state, "Oh,
the sanctuary movement, the Sandinistas, you know, that kind of
stuff."
542
Now, you are telling me under oath that you did not say that
under those circumstances you thought they were un-American?
Mr. SESSIONS. I think that is correct. I think that is an unfair
reading of what happened.
Senator BIDEN. Why doyou not tell me what is a fair reading?
Mr. SESSIONS. Senator Kennedy came in; he had not heard my
previous explanation. He had not heard that and he asked me
about it. I was trying to do a soft-hand, quick,offhand summary of
it so I would not bore eve7body else who had heard it. .
And he asked me had ever used the word with regard to the
ACLU and the NAACP, and I said, "Yes, as I stated before, which I
said when ther involve themselves in promoting un-American posi-
tions or positIOns, my words were considered un-American," and
that is what I was referring to. They were considered to be un-
American positions by many.
"And particularly foreign policy and that sort of thing, they lose
support, yes, but I have not, I do believe," and then he cut me off.
Senator BIDEN. If you are willing to give me another 2 minutes, I
will not take any more time this hearing.
I want to make sure I understand now. You are saying to us
under oath today that you do not believe that the Council of
Churches has ever been engaged in what you considered to be any
un-American activities? Do you understand the question?
Mr. SESSIONS. Ask it again.
Senator BIDEN. Are you telling us that you, Jeff Sessions, at no
time have concluded that the National Council of Churches has en-
gaged in un-American activities? .
Mr. SESSIONS. My opinion is they have not. They may have taken
positions that I consider to be adverse to the security interests of
the United States.
Senator BIDEN. Does that make them un-American?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir, it does not.
Senator BIDEN. Does that make the positions un-American?
Mr. SESSIONS. No.
Senator BIDEN. So· you can have a position adverse to the securi-
ty interests of the United States and not be un-American. Is that
what you are saying to us?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, if you hold it in good faith, you are not an
un~American person or an un-American organization, no, sir.l b~·
Heve in free debate. I believe in free discussion and disagreement
on issues.
And I a~ee that many of the issues I may believe in about Cen-
tral America, many good people-I may be wrong and other people
may be right about it.
. Senator BIDEN. I have no further questions.
The. CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, let me ask you this. As I under-
stand, what he is trying to bring out here is whether you yoursiiIf
said these organizations were un-American, meaning the NAACP,
the National Council of Churches, and one or two others, maybe.
Now, as I understand from your testimony, and I want you to
correct me if I am wrong, your position is that you said when they
engage in certain other activities, it might be considered by some
people as being un-American.
Is that what you said or meant to say? .
543
Mr. SESSIONS. That is what I believe I meant to say. I believe that
is what I said. I said it causes them tc lose support. They lose their
moral authority.
The CIlAIRMAN. Let me ask you the direct question, have you
yourself called them un-American?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You have not?
Mr. SESSIONS. I have not called those organizations un-American.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think that answers the question. That is
what he is trying to get at, I think, whether you yourself have said
they are un-American. Ijust wanted to see if we could clarify the
point.
The distinguished Senator from North Carolina.
Senator EAST. Mr. Sessions, on these various statements that you
have had to respond to, which perhaps-hindsight is a good thing-
you wish they had never occurred. I just want to reaffirm again in
trying to come to what I think is a fair decision in this case-and I
think the evidence points this way-you sum it up as a caricature
of your position.
Rather than taking each particular statement in isolation and
trying to rehash the truth or falsehood of it, depending upon your
point of view .or upon those who are hearing you, I gather what you
are saying here under oath and as truthfully, and as honestly as
you can, is that these statements or this pattern of statements
weave a caricature of you.
They in no way reflect your true, honest feelings, and there is no
doubt in your mind that if you are approved by this Committee and
if you are confirmed by the United States Senate that you could,
and would, apply the law totally devoid of racial insensitivity or
racial prejudice.
There is no question that you are a very competent attorney.
There is no question that you have performed your duties as a U.S.
attorney in an extremely responsible, efficient and effective way.
No one is questioning that.
I noted at the outset, and I would like to underscore it again,
that I do not know that. anyone has suggested, in your conduct of
the office, in your prosecution of cases, your handling of cases, that
you have operated your office and your public responsibilities in a
prejudiced way ox racially-insensitive way.
I would suspect if you had that that would have been out a long
time ago. You probably would have been hounded out of office by
now. I am sure that in the city of Mobile, AL, and in southern Ala-
bama generally one could not be U.S. attorney and be engaging in
a constant, consistent pattern of racial insensivity and racial preju~
dice without causing loud cries of protest.
That would be my assumption in this case, so I ani somewhat in-
clined to give you the benefit of the doubt that this particular se-
quence of statements and comments that we have been over, and
over, and over again must be out of context. They must be a carica-
ture; they must not be a true reflection of the heart and the soul
and the mind of Jeff Sessions.
Ultimately,that is what we come down to, and I would like in
every way that I can to give you the benefit of the doubt. I am
giving you the benefit of the doubt.
544
I have rambled on here a bit, but I would like to get your re-
sponse to that, because I think it is, upon that particular point that
this case turns either yea or nay.
Mr. SESSIONS. I am not sure exactly where to begin in that. I will
say that I have referred to the process that has developed-and I
have no bitterness about it. I am proud to have people investigate.
They have done a fair and aggressive job, and that is fine.
It has resulted in a nightmare type situation, to read >,ourself
called these horrible things in national news media. I noticed, fer
example, that Senator Biden read this quote where it says I talked
about the first answer to the question, then I talked about where
people consider the NAACP to be un-American.
And then I went on and said that is something I probably should
not have said, but I did not mean any harm by it. The New York
Times and Newsweek Magazine both quoted me as saying "I may
have said that the NAACP is un-American, but I meant no harm
by it," both of them in direct quotes.
I know how things can be misconstrued; I am not bitter about it.
I am a lawyer. For 13 years I have practiced law on the ground
floor of the law. I am not an upstairs U.S. attorney; I try cases
these past 4 years. I have briefed cases myself to the court of ap-
peals; I supervise that.
When in private practice, I was with good law firms. I know
what the law is. My idea of a judge is one who gets to the law and
does it and makes a fair, intellectually honest ruling, and that is
what I am committed to do.
Does that approach answering your question?
Senator EAST. Well, again, you lire saying-I guess I will ask you
to repeat it for a final time. You have said that, as you see it, the
pattern of these particular allegations are out of context; they are
a caricature. They do not in any way represent your true senti-
ments, and you were horrified, and I think anyone can from time
to time be horrified that something he may have said inadvertently
or in jest, or in any particular context, may be ripped out of that
context and made into an horrendous caricature having no reason.
able relationship to what was intended by the speaker or his ulti-
mate purpose.
And so you are saying here under oath that the allegations
raised against you create a caricature, not a true picture of Jeff
Sessions, and that there is no question in your mind that if ap-
proved by this Committee and by the United States Senate that
you would be able to conduct yourself on the bench in a completely'
fair, equitable, honest, and open way.
If your answer is yes-and I gather you are saying yes-I accept
it. You are saying it under oath.
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
Senator EAST. To me, that resolves the question because, again,
the question of your competence and your ability is-no one has
challenged that.
And I repeat as a final point-one which I think it is very perti-
nent and perhaps has been understated-namely, in the whole
time you have been a U.S. attorney or assistant U.S. attorney, I
have heard no allegation from any witness that you have operated
545
those offices in a racially-insensitive or racially prejudiced way. If
so, I think we ought to have heard from those witnesses by now.
Thailkyou, Mr. Chairman.
Heflin.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Sessions, I was not exactly sure exactly
what your answer was with reference to the allegation of Mr.
Hebert who testified concerning James Blackshear and quoting a
judge as saying that he· was a disgrace to his race.
As I recall from Mr. Hebert's testimony, he said on one occasion
that your reply was that "maybe he," meaning Mr. Blackshear,
"is," and on another occasion he testified that your reply was that
he, Mr. Blackshear, "probably is."
Now, what is your testimony this morninw pertaining to that?
You us.ed the words "he did not acknowledge, or some such words;
I am not exactly sure. Would you tell us what your--
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir; I have thought about that an awful lot. I
had been told before I came here that one!erson who had been
interviewed by an investigator had been tol that there was abso-
lute proof that I had called Jim Blackshear a disgrace to his race.
That was what I was concerned about. I could not believe that
was true, and .knew that was not. I recall some conversation in
which that was said. Mr. Hebert's testimony came to me, I guess,
probably not until the mornin)' of the hearing.
As he described it, I said 'maybe he is," in response to his in-
quiry to me, so I never did say those words and I never said that he
was a disgrace to his race, according to Mr. Hebert or anyone else.
I have the greatest respect for Jim Blackshear, and I have
thought as hard as I can. I think I made a mistake last time in
trying to speculate and saying maybe this and maybe that. I do not
recall that conversation, but I can tell you, Senator Heflin, with ab-
solute honesty, I did not say it and I did not intend or mean or in
any way affirm that that was a correct statement. It is incorrect.
He is a superb person.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, in othel' words, your position is that you
are in conflict with Mr. Hebert in regard to the reply that· he says
you made, whether it be, "maybe he is" or that "he probably is."
You are saying that you did not make that statement?
Mr. SESSIONS. I am saying that that-I did not. At least I certain-
ly did not intend to communicate anything like that to him, and I
believe his recollection in that is error.
Senator BIDEN. Will the Senator yield on that point?
Senator HEFLIN. Yes.
Senator BIDEN. What did you mean, then, Mr. Sessions, when
r,ou said the first day, knowing the ~uestion was going to be asked,
'I suppose I would have said that?' What did you mean by that?
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not recall saying that, Senator. Where IS that?
Do you have the page? .
Senator BIDEN. The words you said-page 70, I'0u said, "I sup-
p'0se-I do not know why I would have said that.' That is a quote,
'I suppose-I do not know why I would have said that."
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not know why I would have said that. That is
what I meant by that, and I certainly do not know why I would
have said anythmg like that. I will say this, that after seeing Mr.
546
Hebert's error when he was so positive about the Conecuh County
incident, I am less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt
now than I was last time. I just do not believe that happened.
Senator BIDEN. Well, I think you are demonstrating to me you
are a competent advocate, you know. You find a mistake in what
the other fellow says and then go back and use that to recant your
own statement. I think that is kind of imaginative. I find that in·
sightfuL You are a good advocate.
Mr. SESSIONS. Senator, I do. not believe I recanted my statement.
He recanted his;
Senator BIDEN. Not on this point. You pick s0111ething that is un·
related and.you use it to discredit this point. .
Mr. SESSIONS. It just goes to his credibility and the accuracy of
his recollection.
Senator BIDEN. Well, let us talk about the accuracy of your recol·
lection. You said in response to that question, "I understand that
statement has been made. I recall a conversation in which that was
mentioned and my""":1 may have-I believe that statement was-I
said maybe he is, and that is really disturbing to me.
"I suppose-I do not know why I would have said that, and leer·
tainly do not believe that. The lawyer in question is one of the
finest lawyers"-and then you go on to point out, "but I have
heard people say he has gotten some high fees, $100,000 or maybe
even nearly a million in one, for prolonged litigation that he and
his firm have been involved in. And they won and they get this
money, and I have defended him," et cetera.
I mean, I cannot fathom how that statement by you does not at
least acknowledge at the time you said it that you acknowledged
that you may have said that statement. How can you read that any
other way?
Mr. SESSIONS. What I have said to Senator Heflin is that I have
not in anything I said intended to convey that I believed that he
was a disgrace to his race.
Senator BIDEN. Well, you did say something that did convey, not
only to me but I think to anybody who would reasonably read your
answer on the date of your first hearing here, the date I do not
. recall-March 13, 1986, page 70 of your testimony, you said Some-
thing that a reasonable person would view as having conveyed the
notion that at least you may have said that.
Mr. SESSIONS. And I also said that Mr. Hebert was a man Ire·
spect. I do not know why he would say that. "Maybe I said some·
thing like that," I believe was the testimony. I did not recall it
then and 1-- I
Senator BIDEN. Every day in th'e U.S. Senate, I Fake issue, for ex-
ample, with the distinguished Senator from North Carolina. I say I
think his recollection and notion of the Cbnstitlition, and he thinks
mine, are dead wrong, but I respect him, and I dO~!' pect him.
Senator EAST. I never said they are dead wrol1g aughter.]
Senator BIDEN. Well, in fact, I must admit I ''Ie said some of
yours are dead wrong, but I do, in fact, respect yl-\.
Anyway, I find this selective recollection somewhat disturbing.
Senator DENTON. Well, if the Senator will yield, I believe there is
a begging of the question. As I understand Mr. ~essions, he was
trying to avoid calling Mr. Hebert a liar or mistaken. When he was
I
I I r
547
saying things like "suppose this and that," he was talking about
something having been said to that effect, but never indicated that
he said it.
Is that correct or not?
Mr. SESSIONS. That is correct, Senator. At least I never-yes.
. Senator BIDEN. Well, Senator, that is an interesting reading of
that testimony. I find it-let me, if you will hold on a second, just
read the testimony. I mean, I just do not understand how you all
read the testimony that way, the first day.
I guess maybe my problem was I, like Mr. Sessions, went to law
school and I thought that-- .
Senator DENTON. I would be happy to hear it read.
Senator BIDEN. I just read it. I mean, you know, how do you con-
clude something different than that?
The CHAIRMAN. Let us not argue. If you have questions on either
side, ask your questions.
Senator HEFLIN. I believe now that they have taken my time.
Can I get it back? [Laughter.l
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Beflin, I believe you have the floor, do
you not?
Senator HEFLIN. Yes, sir; I started out asking one or two ques-
tions.
Do you have a recollection that a conversation ever occurred
with you and Mr. Hebert or with anybody else relative to Mr.
Blackshear, quoting a judge in Mobile who said that Mr. Black-
shear is a disgrace to his race? Do you have a recollection of any of
that?
Mr. SESSIONS. After having looked over Mr. Hebert's testimony, I
do believe that is essentially the way that conversation developed,
that he carne in and said something about having heard a judge
had said that, not that he knew it or anything of that nature.
And I will state for the record I certainly have never heard that
statement made by anyjudge.
Senator HEFLIN. In other words, you recall that Mr. Hebert came
into your office and did make the statement that a judge in Mobile
had stated that Jim Blackshear was a disgrace to his race?
Mr. SESSIONS. My recollection is that a conversation of that
nature took place. It must have been 4 years ago, probably. He said
he was most active in Mobile in 1981. I think he was, and it very
difficult to recall any details. I do recall that phrase and I believe
Mr. Hebert said it.
Senator HEFLIN. Well, do you state, now, that you do not recall
making a response, or do you state that no response was made, or
do you state what response was made, and if so, the content?
Mr. SESSIONS. All I can sa~ to you, Senator Heflin, is I am abso-
lutely certain that I either dId not make that response, or if I made
anything similar to that, I did not mean to convey to him that I
agreed with that statement. I feel absolutely confident in telling
you that.
The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, Senator?
Senator HEFLIN. When did Mr. Thomas Figures leave the U.S. at-
torney's office. in Mobile?
Mr. SESSIONS. It was July 3 of last year during the Perry County
voter fraud trial.
548
Senator HEFUN. At the time that he left, was there any feeling-
I mean, was there any convers"tion between you as to why he was
. leaving, or was there any protest on his part or any statement on
his part at that time?
Mr. SESSIONS. It was in the second week of that trial. I had gone
to Selma that week; I was not there the first week. And I received
a call from him. He had previously mentioned it to another attor-
ney in the office early in the week. He called a little later in the
week and told me that he was resigning.
It was a surprise to me. I did not ask for it, and he was asked, I
believe, by my administrative officer-apparently, the Department
of ;Justice likes to get a postemployment form that says why you
resigned. And he, in a very abusive manner, told her he was not
saying why he resigned.
Senator HEFUN.. Well, were there any hard feelings or any differ-
ences between you and him at the time that his resignation took
place?
Mr. SESSIONS. Senator Heflin, it was not-we did not have any
hard feelings. We had worked together on this case I tried for 7
weeks. I had prepared it and I realized I could not try it by myself.
We had two judges and a lawyer as defendants, and I asked him to
help me.
And for 7 weeks, we worked side-by-side, 8, 9 at night, weekends.
trying to prepare that case, which was a very--
Senator HEFLIN. That is not the Perry County. case?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. This is a racketeering case, a public cor-
ruption case in Mobile.
And he is not an easy person to work with, but I was very
pleased with his performance and his cooperation and his dedica-
tion. I have told him that, and I mean that sincerely. He did his job
quite a d e q u a t e l y . · .
He did have-he mentioned that he had problems with relations
with clients. That is a category that every attorney has to be rated
on, and I had viewed him as having some problem in that area.
That is true, in my opinion, and I cautioned .him about it. But that
was not, in my opinion; a basis for that kind of hostility.
Senator HEFUN. Was there ever any instance or circumstance be-
tween you and Mr. Figures that you would describe as acrimonious,
or that, in effect, you can point back to and say this is the. reason
that he is trying to get back at me, if he is trying to get back at
you for s o m e t h i n g ? "
Here. you have a good deal of difference between you and him.
and you worked together for about 3 or 3 Vz years. Is there some-
thing between you and him that may have caused this relation-
ship?
Mr. SESSIONS. My honest view is that he was-he saw bad mo-
tives sometimes when it was not there, and that was a problem in
the relationship. I did not really believe that there was a serious
problem in that regard, but I think perhaps it was. .
We did have a disagreement over this Murray case, Corps of En-
gineers case, where he had returned an indictment .and he wanted
to dismiss it. And I challenged that and, just asl should, made sure
that was the right thing to do. We reevaluated the case for a few
weeks and I agreed to dismiss it.
549
I think he was upset about that. That was something he was
upset about.
Senator HEFLIN. How long before he left was that?
Mr. SESSIONS. I would say that was within 6 months. I do not be-
lieye in the last few months. I noticed he withdrew more toward
the end. . .
Senator HEFLIN. Well, I am just saying that a person is left in a
quandary for an explanation. If the statements he has made about
you are incorrect, then why is he "after you," in effect? That sort
of thing naturally raises some. questions.
This raises a question in my mind. I am trying to reach a clear
understanding.
Mr. SESSIONS. I understand that.
Senator HEFLIN. Can you give us any idea of your explanation
for his testimony here-his coming here?
Mr. SESSIONS. I hate to try to psychoanalyze or disparage his
I
character. I felt he was a competent lawyer. There was no doubt in
my mind that Mr. Figures harbored hostility. He was very profes-
sional-and his hostility was not just to me, but to most anyone.
He had great difficulty working with FBI agents. At one time or
another, those hostilities would show to almost everyone in the
office, deep hostilities. Almost everyone in the office at one time or
another has advised me that they have seen him since he left and
he would not speak.
I just do not know; I cannot say. I believed that Mr. Figures was
honest. I believe that he had hostility and I expected that there
would be things said that would not be 'fair, a fair rendition of
what had happened in my office. But I was disappointed at some of
the things that were said that I state to you did not happen.
Senator HEFLIN. Mr. Hebert and you now have several state-
ments in your testimonies which are in conflict. Is there any
reason, other than faulty recollection either on your part or on the
part of Mr. Hebert, that would indicate an explanation for these
conflicts?
Mr. SESSIONS. No; I have thought maybe that some of the contro-
versial lawsuits that I questioned him about-maybe he had had to
fight those through the Department and then had to come down,
and I would give him a hard time about it, but I never really gave
him that hard a time. .
I always signed any complalnts and pleadings that he asked.
Maybe he-I do not know about that. He is-we know that his
recollection is not as good as I thought it was when we came in,
and I think it would be easier to misrecollect a private conversa-
tion than one involving an actual case
Senator HEFLIN. I believe that is all.
Denton.
Senator DENTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sessions, in the wake of the resignation of Mr. Figures, did
you ever consider an attempt to hire another black attorney as an
assistant u.s. attorney?
Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, yes. I think I have affirmatively sought out
qualified applicants. As a matter..of fact, I did offer the job to two
550
black attorneys simultaneously that would have added two to the
office.
Senator DENTON. Who were they?
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I am not sure-I do not mind saying it, but
they both have good jobs and decided to stay with their employ-
ment. I .think the minority investigator is aware of their names
and probably has talked to them.
It would have been immediate raises for them and they consid-
ered it, but decided not to. I have also interviewed two others. I
still believe that it is important in an office like ours that we have
black attorneys. .
The percentage of black attorneys as compared to white attor-
neys, of course, is much lower than the percentage of whites and
blacks in the population.
Benator DENTON. If you prefer not to give the name, for reasons
tha.t are OK with me, have you been involved in conversations re-
garding either of those applicants with respect to another job, any
other position that might develop at some time?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, I have not-ph, 1 did talk to one of the lawyers
and did tell him that I thought it would be important and good for
Mobile if he would come back to Mobile, because he had the talents
and the abilities to do anything in Mobile, to hold any office, and
that he had much to contribute to the community. And that was
~ pitch, really, that Igave to him.
Senator DENTON. Would you consider thatl)1an qualified to hold
the position that you now hold?
Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, I t4ink so.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Chairman, I would end my part of this by
requesting that we include in the record an article dated May 6 by
Tom Wicker, in which some more characteristic misleading in the
media took place, in which in an article criticizing Mr. Manion and
Mr. Sessions as prospective Federal judges, 4e, inter alia, says
about Mr. Sessions-after saying that it would be blatantly bad,to
let Manion go, he says, "So, too, would be the confirmation for Jef-
ferson Beauregard Sessions III of Alabama, whose' record of .con-
firmed racist statements would disqualify him. for a police. court
judgeship in any American. city.
"Mr. Reagan has nominated him to the Federal district court in
southern Alabama, and Mr. Sessions is up for. another Judiciary
Committee hearing today, though even the Birmingham News has
urged that his nomination be withdrawn."
I would like to have that article inserted in the record, along
with the following editorial from the Birmingham News, dated
Friday, May 2, 1986, which I will quote in part. It is headlined "An-
other Look At Sessions." . .
It begins, "After the initial hearing on Jeff Sessions' nomination
to the Federal bench in southern Alabama, we questioned his fit-
ness to serve as a Federal judge and urged his sponsors to with-
draw the nomination.
. "Based on what was presented at that hearing-not. only theac-
cusations, but also the testimony of SessionS' himself'-"we likely
would reach the same conclusion again.
551
"However, much has happened since that first hearing on March
13, In light of subsequent events, we believe the matter should be
reconsidered.
"We had been concerned that by his injudicious remarks, Ses-
sions had betrayed a lack of judicial temperament, Sessions denies
most of the insensitive remarks attributed to him, and credible wit·
nesses have testified such sentiments would be out of character for
the young attorney,"
The .last sentence of the editorial says, "We believe, though, that
Jeff Sessions deserves another look." So Tom Wicker was quoting
the first editorial of the Birmingham News 4 days after a change
in the Birmingham News' editorial regarding this subject.
I ask that both articles be included in the record,
[The following was received for the record:]
Friday May 2, 1986
THE NEWS EDITORIA~
ANOTHER LOOK AT SESSIONS

After the initial hearing on Jeff Sessions' nomination to the Federal bench in
southern Alabama, we questioned his fitness to serve as a Federal judge and urge
his sponsors to withdraw the nomihation~
Based on what was presented at that hearing-not only the accusations but also
~~~In~stimony of Sessipns himself-we likely would reaen that ,same conclusion
However, much has. happened since that first hearing en March 13. In light of
subsequent events, we :believe the matter should be reconsidered.
We had been concerned that by his injudicious remarks, Sessions had betrayed a
lack of judicial temperament-Sessions denies most of the iIisensitive remarks attrib·
utedto him, and credible witnesses have testified Buch sentiments would be out of
character fot' the young attorne;v. ' " ' ~
Even so, the thmgs that SessIOns aclmowledges he did say or might have said are
troubling. But the confirmation' process, painful as it might have beeh for Se.ssions,
has also been an educational process for him. He visited us recently, and impressed
us as being keenly aware, of the need to be careful about what he says. He may once
have joked about .the Ku Klux Klan,- but we, believe he knows better now. "
Sessions, the U;S., attorney in Mobile, also ia persuasive'in his- assertion that the
statements attributed to him do not reflect his true feelings on civil rights civil
rights organizations and the Klan.
We also had been concerned that some peopie, especially black citizens, might
have gotten the idea that they would not receive a fair hearing in Sessions' court,
While that perception might persist in some ,quarters, the record of later hearings
should convince all members of the, community that the perception simply is not
~, , , . ' .
Typical of the later testimony on Sessions' behalf was the statement by Larry
Thompson, a black lawyer and former U,S, attorney who has worked and roomed
with Sessions, He called his friend Sessions "a good and honest man. untainted by
any form of prejudice, II .
The later hearings and our conversation with him did not remove all doubts about
whether Sessions should be a Federal judge. We still don't know if he can be con-
firmed. If he is, he will have to earn' the confidence and respect of 'all those 'who
turn to him for justice. But we no longer view the questions raised at his initial
hearings as disqualifying.
We urge all members of the Senate Judiciary Committee to put aside partisan
motives and view this nomination with an open mind. We understand that some
senators may think they know all they need to know about Sessions. and that recon-
sideration can involv~ some painful soul-searching, It did for us.
We believe. though, that Jeff Sessions deserves another look.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything else?
Senator DENTON. I do have some questions, Mr. Chairman.
552
Mr. Sessions, after today's hearing and the previous one, do you
have any other remarks that you would like to offer to the commit-
tee, especially to those who may have previously reached the con-
clusion that you are racially biased?
Mr, SESSIONS. I do not know that I do, Senator Denton, except to
say that I have seen racial prejudice in my lifetime; I have seen it
firsthand. I have rejected that way. I do not believe it is never a
part of me for many, many years.
I know that people have been discriminated against. I know that
people are discriminated against today, perhaps not as much legal-
ly as it used. to be, but in many subtle ways, and that there are
many instances in which the Federal courts and F'ederallaw or the
Constitution requires redress, and I will have no hesitation in
doing that.
I do not want to make any point of my personal dealings and
feelings with people, but I have had no problems in my relation-
ship, in my commitment. I rejected being members of private clubs.
I am not a member of any that discriminate. I have specifically re-
jected that.
Senator DENTON. Are you saying you refused to join racially ex-
clusive clubs?
Mr, SESSIONS. Yes, I have.
My children are in public schools, substantially integrated public
schools. I have taught in a majority black school before I went to
law school. My wife has taught in majority black schools for 3-
taught there 3 years.
I do not know how to answer these charges and what to say. We
are committed to public education. I want to see harmony in the
South among the races. I have told a number of political leaders
that I consider the most important issue probably facing any
,Southern politician today is to move to harmony amongst the
races.
.,. This constant battle and counterattack,and so forth,. is ,really
harmful to the community. It drives away business, it hurts blacks,
itreaggravates hostilities that we need to put behind us.
'Those are some of my concerns, Senator Denton.
, Senator. DENTON. Would that compose what you would regard as
your view of the new South?
Mr. SESSIONS. I think that is the way we are moving, the Way we
have got to 'move, and it is the right way to move. . '. '. .
Senator DENTON. Do you know how Alabama stands in terms of
the number of black elected officials? .
Mr. SESSIONS. I have heard it is the highest in the Nation; I Un-
derstand that it is.
Senator DENTON. That is correct. It isthe highest in the Nation,
not just per capita, but the highest in the Nation.
Do you know how many black mayors Alabama has, including
the mayor of its largest city? .
Mr. SESSIONS. I do not.
Senator DENTON. At last count, 31, which is also higher than any
other State in the United States, not per capita but absolute.
Did you ever publicly recognize some abuses by law enforcement
authorities of the rights of blacks? Did you express your own view
of whether such abuses would be investigated?'
553
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes. Shortly after I became U.S. attorney, I was in-
vited to speak to the State convention of the Alabama chiefs of
police and I took that opportunity to tell them that we both
knew-I just told them frankly that the policy on civil rights inves-
tigation of police brutality would not change.
I told them, as we both knew, that blacks had been discriminated
in the past by police officers and that this was wrong, and that the
Federal Government would continue to investigate those cases.
Sena.tor DENTON. How were criminal civil rights cases assigned
in the office prior to the departure of Thomas Figures? .
Mr. SESSIONS. Generally, the FBI agents were aware that he han-
dled civil rights. If they had a new case that came in, they would
go straight to him. That was not an iron law, but they understood
that that was his role and, for the most part, that was the way
they handled.
That was certainly my policy. When I found out that some few
cases had not been going to him, I talked to the FBI supervisor and
agent and made clear my position that they were to go to him.
Senator DENTON. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman. I
would like to thank you personally for your presencehere through-
out this long hearing today, considering the tremendous responsi-
bilities you have as President pro tempore of the Senate.
I have reread the letter of Mr. Crump, of the NBA, the National
Bar Association, which was referred to by Senator Kennedy. I have
a coPy of that report to which the letter refers, and the letter es-
sentially says that although they did not include in their report on
Mr. Sessions the charge that he had referred to Mr. Figures as boy,
that indeed Mr. Figures had told them that he had been referred to
as boy. That is the general essence of the letter.
I find it impossible to believe, considering the sensational aspect
of the charge that Mr. Figures was called boy on a regular basis,
which they say was given to them-I find it impossible to believe
that among the many trivial allegations which were included in a
very' thick report submitted by that organization tha~ they could
have omitted the boy allegation, if indeed it had been made, be-
cause they certainly scored up everything they could against Mr.
Sessions in this. . '
I want to make it clear to you, Mr. Chairman, and to ;anyone
who cares to know that although I am criticizing a bias of the
NBA, in my view, I too am, like Mr. Sessions, interested in seeing
I
j
the development of a colorblind South. . .
I have not heard Mr. Sessions say anything that I disagree with
in that direction. I believe that the renewal of the South in terms
of economic recovery, the development of the Sun Belt in such a
renaissa.nce-like way, is principally due to the fact that the black
l community, which had been suppressed for centuries either in the
form of slavery or discrimination, is at least released from most of
I the previous abuses, have enjoyed a greater equality of opportunity
with respect to education and jobs, and that that bringing to bear
of that part of humanity, the most precious natural resource of any
area, is the reason for the rise of the South economically; that the
1 production of goods and services which has been made possible by
those people being given the chance to participate therein is the
reason and the promise of the future.
554
That process is proceeding; it is proceeding, again, in a seesaw
fashion because there are some problems, and they work both ways
these days. Sometimes there is overaffirmative action taken, some-
times··underaffirmativeaction taken.
I do not have any problem with people exaggerating on the side
of .needing; wanting more rights. I do have a problem with preju-
dice, bias, hatred on either side, and I just wanted to say that for
the record and thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for chairing this
hearing. .
The CHAIRMAN. Anymore questions, Senator Heflin and Senator
East?
Senator HEFt,IN. No questions..
Senator EAST. No. .
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sessions, I just have a very few question~
here.
Do you know of any bigotry on your part or any hatred on your
part toward blliCk people .or any other people that w()uld prevent
you from dispensing jtlstice in an even manner and a fair and
honest manner?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir,I do not.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever taken any step before you became
U.S. attorney or during your service as an U.S. attorneY that would
indicate that y()U do have bigotry or hatred in your heart towlird
black people or other people?
Mr. SESSWNS. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Has anyone accused you of unfairly treating
black people or other people?
Mr. SESSIONS. Only basically this Perry County case is the first
time we hllve been accused.
The CHAIRMAN. As I understand, the Perry County case was Ii
voting fraud case, waS it not?
The CHAIRMAN. That Clise was brought by black people against
some of the black leaders, and the FBI was called in to investigate,
which the black people wanted. And when the FBI made its report,
they recommended that you prosecute certain of those leaders, is
that true?
Mr. SESSIONS..That is basically correct.
The CHAIRMAN. In prosecuting those leaders, did you. do it be-
cause they were black people or bec.ause the FBI convinced you
they had evidence that the black people should be prosecuted at
the request of other black people?
Mr. SESSIONS. It was done merely because there was a clear viola-
tion of the law. We had previously been requested by a majority
black grand jury to investigate that case.
The CHAIRMAN. It is your duty as U.S. attorney to prosecute
them, regardless of whether they are white, black, tan or other-
wise, if they violated the law and the FBI had the evidence and
said they shotlld be tried?
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any discrimination that ·you
have shown against any people on account of their color?
Mr. SESSWNS. No, sir.
555
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any prejudice you have shown
against anyone on account of their color?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you pursued any racist attitude or perpe-
trated any act that would be considered racist since you have been
U.S. attorney, or before then?
Mr. SESSIONS. Absolutely not.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you feel like you can render justice to all
people, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin, or
what not, if you become a U.S. district judge?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, I do, to the best of my ability.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, I notice you have been endorsed here by
the Honorable Ferrill D. McRae, judge of the 13th judicial circuit,
Mobile, AL, and on behalf of the 10 judges of that court. Do they
still endorse you?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir, to my knowledge.
The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have been endorsed by the Honora-
ble Braxton Kittrell, judge of the 13th judicial circuit, Mobile, AL.
Mr. SESSIONS. Both testified at this committee on my behalf.
Judge McRae is the presiding judge of that circuit. The former pre-
siding judge, Judge Robert Hodnut, has also communicated strong
support on my behalf.
The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have been endorsed by Larry
Thompson, former U.S. attorney, Atlanta, GA, who was a black
U.S. attorney. Is there any change in his position?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
The CHAIRMAN. The 13th judicial circuit-is one member of that
court a black judge?
The CHAIRMAN. And they endorse you?
The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have been endorsed by William
Kimbrough, a former U.S. attorney, southern district of Alabama.
Is he still backing you?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir. He came and testified before this commit·
tee.
The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have been endorsed by Bobby Eddy,
chief investigator, district attorney's office, Mobile, AL. Is there
any change in his position?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir. He was the investigator on the Michael.
Donal.d case and the 17th Street bombing case involving the Ku
Klux Klan in Birmingham. He solved that case.
The CHAIRMAN. I ,notice you have been endorsed by George Horn,
of the Mobile County Republican Executive Committ~e, and he is a
black man, is that correct? ' ,
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir. [
The CHAIRMAN. A,,~ ch:Jge in his position? //
Mr. SESSIONS. No, Sir. ' ,
The CHAIRMAN. I notic you were endorsed by LaVon Phillips,
legal assistant and administrative assistant, Perry County District
Attorney's Office, Marion, AL. Is there any change in his position?
Mr. SESSIONS. Not to my knowledge. .
The CHAIRMAN. Since this hearing started?
I
556
Mr. SESSIONS. I have no reason to believe he has changed in any
way.
The CHAIRMAN. There has been a lot of publicity about this
matter and I just wanted to check to be sure how these people
stand.
Mr. SESSIONS. I appreciate very deeply their willingness to come
and testify on my behalf, in spite of some of the publicity.
The CHAIRMAN. I believe you have been endorsed by Judge John
F. Butler, circuit judge, 13th judicial circuit. That isa State court
in Alabama1
The CHAIRMAN. By John Whetstone, district attorney, 28 judicial
circuit, Bay Minette, AL. Any change in the position of either one
of those gentlemen? .
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir,not to my knowledge.
The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have been endorsed by Henry
McMaster, former U.S. attorney, district of South Carolina. Where
did you know Mr. McMaster and what caused his endorsement?
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. McMaster was a great U.S. attorney, did a
magnificent job in investigating financial aspects of drug smug·
gling. We had several conferences. We went to his office in his dis·
trict and he explained his very successful techniques. I consider
him a good friend.
The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you worked with him in legal
matters?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Investigative matters?
The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have numerous letters endorsing you
from other people. I will not take time to go any further, but I
have tried to listen to this entire matter all the way through. And
when the President appoints someone, it is assumed that he is
qualified; there is a presumption that he is qualified because the
President has an investigation by the FBI before he appoints.
Then this committee has to investigate it, the JudiCiary Commit·
tee, and I have told my investigator all the while that if there is
anything against anybody, I want to be the first to know if there is
any detrimental information. I think that is important. This com·
mittee should be very careful and not recommend somebody who
discriminates or is not fair or not qualified.
But all of these people have found you qualified. Now, I will not
take time to go into these other letters and other people, and so
forth.
Senator DENTON. Mr. Chairman, if you are pausing, may I ask
that one other thing be entered in the record, please, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. What is that?
Senator DENTON. It is an article again showing the bias in the
newspapers, and this is in Montgomery, AL. This is the Montgom·
ery Advertiser, a major newspaper in that city. There is an article
in it headlined-and this is Tuesday, MliY 6, headlined "Black Con-
tends Race Not Issue in Sessions Hearing." It is by Alvin Ben, Ad·
vertiser staff writer, and it is datelined Marion, AL.
There is a paragraph in it that says, quoting a man named J.L.
Chestnut, who is a partner in a law firm with Henry Sanders, who
557
is reported so frequently as a testifier as to the criticisms of Mr.
Sessions-he does not look kindly upon him.
This Mr. Chestnut is a writer, also, in the Selma newspaper. Mr.
Chestnut says as follows: "When he admitted"-and he is talking
about Sessions-"When headmitted that he referred to Tom Fig-
ures as 'boy,' it did him little good," Chestnut said.
He goes on "I would think that anybody who admitted such a
statement on the record would have problems becoming a federal
judge." That is from an article of May 6, Montgomery Advertiser,
quoting this fellow, J.L. Chestnut, with whom Henry Sanders is
law partner.
Is that correct, Mr. Sessions?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir. Mr. Chestnut was one of the defense law-
yers in the Perry County case, also.
Senator DENTON. And you know, Mr. Chairman, and everyone
within the sound of my voice, that Mr. Sessions has never admitted
calling Mr. Figures "boy," so this is a lie. He has denied calling
him "boy" and this is a lie-"when he admitted that he referred to
Tom Figures as Iboy.' "
So this case is not very fair in terms of that which has been lev-
eled against Mr. Sessions, and I hope this hearing has cleaned up
enough of it.
I would ask that this article be included in the record.
Now, I want to ask you this question, then, since he has raised
that point again. Did you call Mr. Figures "boy?"
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir: I did not. I have not admitted it any time.
The first I ever heard of that, it was--
Senator DENTON. Would you start your answer again? I could not
hear it.
Mr. SESSIONS. The first time I had heard that was at this last
hearing. I have denied it: I denied it consistently. I have never told
anybody I have admitted that I have said that.
The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this nOw. There was something
said about the Klan. I believe you stated either today or preViously
that you hate the Klan and you are opposed to what it stands for.
Is that the essence of your statement?
Mr. SESSIONS. Absolutely. It is a hate-filled organization that
teaches prejudice and diVisiveness, and is inconsistent with what I
consider to be the highest values of our country.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, I want to ask you this straight question.
Did you say that that gentleman, Mr. Blacksher, is a disgrace to
his race? Did you make that statement or not?
Mr. SESSIONS. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, how in the world did all these things get
around? Innuendoes have gotten out in the press and it is very
unfair to you if all these things are untrue, and that is the reason I
am trying to clear them up. I am asking you these direct questions
so we can get direct answers.
Again, I say if you are confirmed by the committee and the
Senate, can you be fair to anyone who comes before you in case of
a trial, and feel that he can get an honest, fair trial?
Mr. SESSIONS. They certainly can, yes, sir.
.558
The CHAII\MAN. I think that is about all that I have to say, Mr.
Sessions, and I think you have answered directly and cleared up.
certain matters. In your previous testimony, maybe you were a
little hesitant about a few things that you did not want to hurt
people's feelings, but sometimes you have to hurt people's feelings
and I am glad you have answered directly and clearly so there can
b~ no misunderstanding just as. to where you stand. . .
After all, that is the way people should be, be frank and direct,
and then people can understand your position in matters.
I beli~ve this is the. fourth hearing we have held on this matter.
We have spent about 20 or 21 hours on i,t, so this ~oncludes the
hearing and it will be brought up before the committee.
In view of the statements that you have made, if I had not at-
tended any other hearing than today, where you have an.swered di-
rectly and nobody, as I understand it, has contradicted you or gone
back on their previous endorsements, it appears to me, after all the
investigations that have been made, that you are qualified and I
expect to support your nomination.
Is there anything else you have?
Senator DENTON. No, just to thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for
permitting the time to take this other look, and I appreciate that
very much since the man is my nominee and I am very proud of
his service as a U.S. attorney and I look forward to being proud of
his service as a Federal judge.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator East, do you have any statement before
we adjourn?
Senator EAST. No.
The CHAIRMAN. We now stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
BIOGRAPHY
JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III
Birth: December 24, 1946, Selma,· AL.
Legal Residence:. Alabama.
Marital Status: Married to Mary M. Blackshear Sessions, 3 children.
Education: 1965-69-Huntingdon College, B.A. degree. 1970-73-University of
Alabama School of Law, J.D. degree.
Bar: 1978, Alab~ma.
Experience: 1973-75-Guin, Bouldin & Porch, Associate.: 1975-77-AssistantU.S.
Attorney, Southern District of Alabama. 1977-1981-Stockman & Bedsole, Associate
and Partner. 1981...;present-U.S. Attorney, Southern District of Alabama.
559
APPENDIX
J:
Hay 6, 1986
Fred ·D•. O~Y The Honorable, Edward M. Kennedy

PTtlld~fl/
Senate JUdici~ry Committ.e
113 Ruasell Senate Office Building
Thomas J. BfOOme Washington, D.C. 20510
PTtlldtfl/·Elrf'
[ ,:1,'.
Dear Senator Kennedy:
CNrlea ,5, lohnson, III
Vki P"lld~llt In connection with the nomination of Jefferson
. '. :·;·,~:;~r.Dd~ B. Ses8ions, III, the National Bar Association
Thomas A; ~kenl\cld
(-NBA-) 'conducted a number of interviews with
VI« Presldrlll individuals who had personalknovledge of the
Waher L. SUUOIl, Jr.
nominee and his· record. In order to assure
that individuals ,whom 'Ie interview are entirely
Vil't P'tsid~,,' candid, it is the general praotice of the National
Joyce A, Oates Mitchell
Bar Association to treat as confidential the
identity of those Whom we interviev, aD well
VlaP'n/un' as those details of an intervi~w which are not
Aigenita SCOlt Davis
included in our written report.
SrUtll1ry
During the. JUdiciary Comulittee's confirmation
Frllnk Seales, Jr.
hearing one witness, Thomas Figures, testified
TlwlSlI'~r
that .he had in fact been interviewed by the
NBA, And that he 'had told ths NBA that he had
Juhn A. Turner, It,
been ~eferred to by Mr. Sessions as "boy."
Gelleral COUllld Your office has advised us that you would like
to know whether Hr. Figures described this problem
David E. Neely when he was interviewed by the National Bar
Parl/amell/ar/Oll
Association.
John Crump Under the particular circumstances of this case

E.UI:~lil't D/rtt:/or
we have concluded that no purpose would be served
by adhering to our usual policy of ,confidentiality.
Hr. Figures has already disclosed on his own
initiative that he was interviewed by the NBA,
and has te~tified und~r oath about this particular
aspect of that interview. since the Committee
evidently regards Mr. Figures' statement to
us, or the lack thereof, as of critical i~portance,
we believe we are under an obligation to disolose
to the eOAl:u! !Qq our knowledge of thb! matter.
, eu.-~lft-LCl,;,.
I. :,1 .NATION~t,.. BAR ASSOCIATION INC.. 1173 T STREET, N.W" WASHINGTON, D.C, 20009 • (202) 797.9002
6111 ANNUAL MEF:T/NG • JULY 27·A,UGUST 2, /986 • DENVF.R, ('0,
Telex: ~69$10 Cable: NABAR WSH
I
560
o· T~e Hono~able Edward M. Kennedy
'. Page Two

May 6, 1986
Mr. Figures was intetviewed by the NBA in July,

August and September, 1965. In the course of
at least two inteJ:'vievs,. Mr. F!gut:as apecificallY
advised us that Mr. Sessions had referred to
him as "boy" during the period that Mr. Figures
served 8S an Assistant U.S. Attorney. We questioned
Mr. Figures about these occurences, and found
his answers entirely conBiBt~nt end credible.
We understand that Borne members of the Senate
may have assumed, because this matter was not
discussed in our report1that Mr. Figures had
not described this incident during this interview.
We would caution the Committee against attempting
1n the future to infer the sUbject matter or
scope of NBA interviews frOm the ultimate content
of a ·C'epoC't. ,Because NBA investigations are
often exhaustive, at times it is not possible
to include in a report. all the credible and
serioulll 'information of which we may be aware,
particularly where, as occurred in this case,
a nominee hes made a number of statements all
of Which reU ilnilar att-itude.
o
i .
I
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Sessions Confirmation Transcript

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S. HRG.

NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, TO

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

THE NOMINATION OF JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS III, OF ALABAMA, TO BE

MARCH 13, 19, 20, AND MAY 6, 1986

Serial No. J-99-120

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

U,S, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 1986

I,I tigation was begun.

L,i'I'hat was signed by the foreman of that ·grand jury.

Wa,hlfI,IOIl, D.C. 10JJO

Mr. Jeff Sessions

intended to cast, and to determine the circumstance. under which

FEDERAL aUREAU,OF INVeSTIGATION

31. MARY DaLOIS SHELTON, Route 6, Box 391, Selma, Alabama

SIJELTON stated she personallY sealed her ballot b;.;tt

,.~" Oocym.~' <0~1.,", noll no... comm.~d'iion. no, cone'""on.

An absentee ballot with four (4) names crossed out

k Mr. SESSIONS. Oh, the sanctuary movement and Sandinistas, you

q;"*ENNJ;my. My time is up.

~fgotto go past the mark, but when they go past that

;~fu"I~il',ertota triaJ.This is a se"reb for giving Mr. Sessions and

.••.:nJ1to)lghout here, you do not attempt to characterize in a nega-

A copy of the request goes tothe U.S. attorney in whosedisttl

r:" HEBERT. Senator, I have wrestled with that question iliore

SWorn ~st1tco.ny of J PAU1I F ~ UAliCOCIt

UNITED STATES SENATE

1 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

• wednesdaY, March 12. 1986

" Room 80-246

The sworn testimony of Paul Y. Hancock, J. Ger.,ld Hebert,

" Albert s. Glenn, and Daniel L. Ball, was taken commencing at

" REOINALD C. GOVAN

" Co~mitt90 on the ~udlciary

" FRANK ,KLONO.SKI

• ~lr. Govan. Hy nallle :1.5 Reginald Govan and I'm llinor:l.ty

• investigator for the JUdioiary Comlllit.tee.

• Hr. KlonOlki. If I can butt in, why don't w• •• tabl:l.sh

• that we're hold.ing th:l.e Illeet:l.ng on request of senator Biden,

requeated the presence of two Justice Department att"r' (,ys,

heari",>,s scheduled for tomorrow, Thursday, at 2:00 ~.rr, •• or.

of the attorneys at the hearing ·under whatever procedures, if

it should be necessary, would be wo"rked out.

if you do want theso attorneys present at the hearin9 tommorro

... thon I would suggest that you for a subpoena because it is

Hr. GOvan. Mr. Hancock, you W8re

Point for the record. Since you're obviou8ly going to be

questioning two of these witnessee in regard to their cOmments

they made to an ABA investiglltor !Ill a part of the ABA

investigation at Mr. Jeft Sessions,

'were 9'iven in Confidencej that by bringing them into an open

the ABA to give confidential statement~.

• ewern, teetified A. followSI

• by the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department?

• Mr. Hancock. Yes.

II tlie Justice Dep",rt.m8nt?

Civil Rights DIvision. My position is assistant for

" responsibility ove~ the attorneys in the Voting Section that