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#1

04212009

fsx
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Developinggoodlogicskills
Helloeveryone,
Iwouldliketodevelop
mylogicskillsbecause
Ifeeltheyarequiteon
theloweraverage
level.
IbelieveIneedsome
lowlevelthinkingskill
withfewinstrumentsto
solvethetricks.

Apr2009
29

Canyousuggestme
sometechniquestodo
so?Booktitlesarevery
welcometoo...
Bestregardsandthankyouinadvance!
FSX

#2

04212009

Snafuist
CompleteBeginner
JoinDate:
Posts:

Feb2009
312

Booktitlesareverywelcometoo...

Thestandardtextonthetopicis"IntroductiontoMathematicalLogic"
byElliottMendelson.
Citingfromthebookcover:
propositionallogic
firstorderlogic
firstordernumbertheoryandtheincompletenessand
undecidabilitytheoremsofGdel,Rosser,ChurchandTarski
axiomaticsettheory

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theoryofcomputability

Ifyouwantthefocustobeoncomputationallogic,see
http://www.ps.unisb.de/courses/clss08/script/icl.pdf
Greets,
Philip

Allthingsbeginassourcecode.
Sourcecodebeginswithanemptyfile.
TaoTeChip

#3

04212009

MK27

OriginallyPostedbyfsx

spuriousconceit

JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Jul2008
segmentationfault
8,300

IwouldliketodevelopmylogicskillsbecauseIfeeltheyarequite
ontheloweraveragelevel.
IbelieveIneedsomelowlevelthinkingskillwithfewinstruments
tosolvethetricks.
Canyousuggestmesometechniquestodoso?Booktitlesarevery
welcometoo...

Makethemprogrammingbooks.Yourlogicalthinkingwillimprove
withpractice.Computerprogrammingislogicjustlookatwhat
yourcomputeris.
IabsolutelyandverystronglydisagreewithSnafuistaboutthis.You
willbemuchmuchbetteroffputtingtwiceasmuchtimeinto
K&R(orwhatever)thanspendingthattimereadingphilosophy
(evenmathphilosophy).
Evenmost"algorithmanalysis"andabstractionisfarremovedfrom
realprogramming,althopeoplewhofinditinterestingwillofcourse
argueendlesslyabouthowimportantandfundamentalitis.Itisnot
itmayormaynotbeusefultoyouafteryoudevelopsome
programmingexpertise.Otherwise,itseemstome(byobservation)
thatinmany(couldbemost!)casesthisleadstomoreconfusion,
notless.
Ilovephilosophy(andbooze).Ilovecomputerprogramming(and
driving).Hmmm.
ActuallytobehonestIdonotlikedriving
Cprogrammingresources:
GNUCFunctionandMacroIndexglibcreferencemanual
TheCBookniceonlinelearnerguide
CurrentISOdraftstandard
CCANnewCPANlikeopensourcelibraryrepository
3(different)GNUdebuggertutorials:#1#2#3
cpwikiourwikionsourceforge

04212009
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/abriefhistoryofcprogrammingcom/115094developinggoodlogicskills.html

#4
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Developinggoodlogicskills

Bladactania
RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Posts:

Feb2009
278

Ilovedriving.Andprogramming.
Astothediscussion,Itakesomewhatofamiddleground.Ithinkto
beabletoprogrammorethanthemostbasicprograms,youhaveto
alreadyhavesomelogicskills.Learningtoprogrambuildsonthe
fundamentallogicalthinkingskillsthatexistalreadywithinthe
aspiringprogrammer.Thatbeingsaid,Idon'tthinkthatreadingthe
bookSnafuistsuggestedwillhelpyoudeveloptheseskillseither,
althoughIdothinkthatmathematicallogicisessentialtocomputer
programming,onceagain,Ithinkabasemustalreadyexist.Mostly
thisbaseisbuiltinandishardtodevelopbylearning.Onemust
havealogicalbraintobeginwith.GiventhefactthattheOPison
thisforumandaskingforhelpinthisarea,Iwouldassumethatthe
individualisblessedwithatleastabasiclogicunderstanding.
Inmyexperience,Ihavefoundthatworkingbasiclogicpuzzlesisthe
bestwaytotrainthemindtothinklogically(youcanfindthemat
anybookstore).Theyarefunandyoucanstartsmallandgetharder
asyougo.Onceyouhavegotyourbrainchurningthroughthosewith
ease,that'swhentostartreadingbookstofurtheryour
understanding.

#5

04212009

Fencesitter!Ijustwanttodrivemypointhomealittlebitfurther.

MK27
spuriousconceit

JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Jul2008
segmentationfault
8,300

OriginallyPostedbyBladactania

Idothinkthatmathematicallogicisessentialtocomputer
programming,onceagain,Ithinkabasemustalreadyexist.Mostly
thisbaseisbuiltinandishardtodevelopbylearning.Onemust
havealogicalbraintobeginwith.

Irememberseeingaposteraboutthementallyhandicappedthatsaid
"Anyhumanbeingwhocanspeakiscapableoflearningmath",which
Ihadneverthoughtabout,butIguessLOGICALLY,thatwouldbe(and
apparentlyis)true.
Ifyouwanttodopuzzlestoimproveyourabilitytothinklogically,I
betthebestsortof"puzzle"forthiswouldbetomakeapuzzleusing
acomputerprogram.
Ifyoudon'tknowwhattheyare,google"logicgatesandtransistors".
That'showyourcomputerworks.Thecomputerdoesnotimplement
differentschoolsofthoughtaboutit,either.Theclosestyouwillever
betorawlogic(whichisanextrahumanthingfromwhichmathis
abstracted)istoprogramacomputer.Ifthat'swhatyouwanttodo,
doinganythingelsewillbetakingastepbackward(exceptthatit
providesahistoricalcontextfortheexistenceofcomputers,whichis
interestingandenlightening).
ps.ImaybeahypocritsinceIalreadyhaveaBAthatinvolved
logicalthinkingstuff...anddon'tconsiderthattohavebeenawasteof
time
LasteditedbyMK2704212009at11:12AM.

Cprogrammingresources:
GNUCFunctionandMacroIndexglibcreferencemanual
TheCBookniceonlinelearnerguide
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/abriefhistoryofcprogrammingcom/115094developinggoodlogicskills.html

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TheCBookniceonlinelearnerguide
CurrentISOdraftstandard
CCANnewCPANlikeopensourcelibraryrepository
3(different)GNUdebuggertutorials:#1#2#3
cpwikiourwikionsourceforge

#6

04212009

Bladactania
RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Posts:

Feb2009
278

Ifthegoalistosimplyimprovelogicalthinking,thenusingcomputer
programmingislikelearninghowtobuildcarstoimproveyour
understandingofmetalworking.
Ihaveseentheposteryoumentioned(oratleastavariation)and
whatitsaysistrue,butIdoubtamentallyhandicappedpersoncould
learnadvancedcalculusorcontributetotheadvancementof
mathematicaltheory.Theymightbeabletolearnaddition,
multiplicationandmaybeevenbasicalgebradependingonthelevel
oftheirhandicap.
Agoodwaytothinkaboutitistoturnitaroundtheotherwayand
thinkabout,sayart.IcanstudyarttillI'mblueintheface.Ican
practicepaintinguntilmyfingersbleed.Butnoneofmyworkwill
everbehangingintheLouvre!Tobeabletoproducegreatworksof
art,yestherehastobetrainingandeducationandpractice.But
therehastobeafundamental,builtinskillalreadytheretobuild
upon.Italldependsonthewayanindividualsbrainisbuilt!

#7

04212009

elwad
RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Posts:

Apr2009
187

itsbesttoreadK&RlikeIMdoingnowIalsolacksome
programminglogic
butreadingK&Rmademeimprovelilbitandimonlyatpage30
eventhoughittakestimeunderstandingstuffbutitsworthitinthe
endlikethereisasayaskthepatientthanaskingthedoctor:P.

#8

04212009

whiteflags
Lurking

JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Thereisacollectionoflogicpuzzlesoveratlogicpuzzles.com.While
thisisnotdirectlyrelatedtocomputerprogrammingIthink,I
supposethatsitewouldhelpyoufsx.

Apr2006
UnitedStates
9,086

#9

04212009

MK27

OriginallyPostedbyBladactania

spuriousconceit

JoinDate:

ButnoneofmyworkwilleverbehangingintheLouvre!Tobeable
toproducegreatworksofart,yestherehastobetrainingand
educationandpractice.

Jul2008

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Developinggoodlogicskills
Location:
Posts:

segmentationfault
8,300

ThereasonnothingyoudowilleverbeintheLouvreisbecausethe
Louvreisamuseum.It'sabouthistory.It'salsofullofmediocrity.
Ofcoursetherehastobetrainingandeducationandpractice!Itmay
neverend(Ikindoflikeit)!Butifyouareinterestedinformallogic,
studyit.DONOTstudyitjustbecauseyouthinkitwillhelpwithyour
programming.Thefactthattheybothappealtothesamekindsof
peopleisnotsurprisingthefactthatpeoplefeeltheyarethesumof
theirpartsisalsonotsurprising.Butpeopleshouldnotbetold"an
understandingofformallogicisessentialtocomputerprogramming"
thatisalie.Formallogicisit'sownfieldwithit'sown
institutionalizedlanguageandmethods.
Mypointaboutthementalhandicappedisthatyoualreadyhavea
logicalbrainnobodyhastomakeitoverthatway.
ps.thebookSharkereferstointhenextpostsoundsperfectto
me...exceptforthatlastsentence,whichisabittroubling.
LasteditedbyMK2704212009at12:29PM.

Cprogrammingresources:
GNUCFunctionandMacroIndexglibcreferencemanual
TheCBookniceonlinelearnerguide
CurrentISOdraftstandard
CCANnewCPANlikeopensourcelibraryrepository
3(different)GNUdebuggertutorials:#1#2#3
cpwikiourwikionsourceforge

#10

04212009

Sharke
RegisteredUser

JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Jun2008
NYC
303

I'malwaysdisappointedwhenIpickabookofftheshelfthatpurports
tobeaboutcomputeralgorithmsandyetwhenIopenittheredoesn't
seemtobeonelineofcode,justabunchofverycomplicatedlooking
math.
Ihaveseenacoupleofgoodnonmathematicalbooksonalgorithms
however.OneIhave"PracticalAlgorithms"byAndrewBinstockand
JohnRexisintendedforthosewithoutamathematicalbackground
whojustwanttolearnsomebasicalgorithmicskillswithouttheegg
headedsymbolictreatmentfoundinmoreformaltexts.Itcovers
thingslikelists,trees,hashing,compression,stringsearchesetc.
AllitrequiresisabasicworkingknowledgeofC.Mostofthebookis
code,withshortishexplanationsbeforeandafter.Justreading
throughsomeoneelse'scodewillbeenormouslybeneficialsinceyou
learnhowtofollowandinterpretcodelogicandyouwilllearnmany
paradigmsalongtheway.Inthecaseofthisbook,I'malsolearning
alotabouthowtotrackdownbugssincetheprintedcodedoesn't
workproperlyinafewcases.

#11

04212009

Bladactania
RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Posts:

Feb2009
278

OriginallyPostedbySharke

I'malwaysdisappointedwhenIpickabookofftheshelfthat
purportstobeaboutcomputeralgorithmsandyetwhenIopenit
theredoesn'tseemtobeonelineofcode,justabunchofvery
complicatedlookingmath.

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Computeralgorithmshaslittletonothingtodowithactualcode.The
implementationofanalgorithmislanguagedependent.Granteda
littlepseudocodemightbehelpful,butastudyofalgorithms
specifically,doesn'trequirecode.Whenwritingaprogram,you
shouldknowthealgorithmBEFOREyouwriteanycode.Thealgorithm
isthestepbystepprocessofsolvingaparticularproblem.
AllitrequiresisabasicworkingknowledgeofC.Mostofthebook
iscode,withshortishexplanationsbeforeandafter.Justreading
throughsomeoneelse'scodewillbeenormouslybeneficialsince
youlearnhowtofollowandinterpretcodelogicandyouwilllearn
manyparadigmsalongtheway.

Allitrequires?SosomeoneneedstolearnCbeforelearningabout
algorithms?Seemsbackwardstome!
Inthecaseofthisbook,I'malsolearningalotabouthowtotrack
downbugssincetheprintedcodedoesn'tworkproperlyinafew
cases.

Thisdisturbsmeaswell!Grantedtherearetyposetcinevery
programmingtext,butthereshouldbenomorethan2or3inan
entiretext!

#12

04212009

MK27
spuriousconceit

JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Jul2008
segmentationfault
8,300

Bladactania,itwouldbestupidorcrazytotryreadingabout
computeralgorithmsifyoudidnothaveatleastsomegroundingin
atleastonelanguage.
Howanalgorithmispresenteddoesn'tmatterthe"egghead"stuff
Sharkereferstoisprobablytheworstwaytodoitthough.Ibelieve
thepurposeisgenerallynotexplanatoryanywayit'sacademic
analysis.
Soallthatbeingsaid,thebestandmostpracticalexplanationofa
processisboundtobeinrealcodeplus,youcancountonthefact
thatthesourceisanactualprogrammer.Beatthatlogic...
Cprogrammingresources:
GNUCFunctionandMacroIndexglibcreferencemanual
TheCBookniceonlinelearnerguide
CurrentISOdraftstandard
CCANnewCPANlikeopensourcelibraryrepository
3(different)GNUdebuggertutorials:#1#2#3
cpwikiourwikionsourceforge

#13

04212009

zhankal

OriginallyPostedbyelwad

RegisteredUser
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Apr2009

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Developinggoodlogicskills
Location:
Posts:

Turkey
12

itsbesttoreadK&RlikeIMdoingnowIalsolacksome
programminglogic
butreadingK&Rmademeimprovelilbitandimonlyatpage30
eventhoughittakestimeunderstandingstuffbutitsworthitinthe
endlikethereisasayaskthepatientthanaskingthedoctor:P.

+1
K&Risoneofthebestbookswhichdevelopyou,ofcourseifyou
practicewhatyouread.

#14

04212009

zhankal

OriginallyPostedbyfsx

RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Location:
Posts:

Apr2009
Turkey
12

Helloeveryone,
IwouldliketodevelopmylogicskillsbecauseIfeeltheyarequite
ontheloweraveragelevel.
IbelieveIneedsomelowlevelthinkingskillwithfewinstruments
tosolvethetricks.
FSX

Ifyouthinkso,youshoulddevelopyourmathematical&analytical
skills.

#15

04212009

Bladactania
RegisteredUser
JoinDate:
Posts:

Feb2009
278

Question:Writeanalgorithmforsolvingthefollowingproblem:A
humanlikerobotissittinginachairattheendofahallway.Atthe
otherendofthehallwayisaball.Gettherobottopickuptheball
andsitbackdown.
Theanswerrequiresabsolutelynoprogrammingknowledge
whatsoever.Analgorithmcouldbeoneabouthowtobakeacake,
gettothelocalgrocerystore,orbuildingahouse.Itdoesn'thaveto
becomputer,orreallyevenmathrelatedatall.
fromdictionary.com
algorithm
/
lg
rm/ShowSpelledPronunciation[alguhrithuhm]
ShowIPA
noun
asetofrulesforsolvingaprobleminafinitenumberofsteps,as
forfindingthegreatestcommondivisor.

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