UTILIZING TECHNOLOGY TO IMPROVE TARP

AND FINANCIAL OVERSIGHT

HEARING
BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

SEPTEMBER 17, 2009

Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services

Serial No. 11175

(
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WASHINGTON

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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts, Chairman
PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
MAXINE WATERS, California
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
ZQUEZ, New York
NYDIA M. VELA
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York
BRAD SHERMAN, California
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
DENNIS MOORE, Kansas
MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts
N HINOJOSA, Texas
RUBE
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
CAROLYN MCCARTHY, New York
JOE BACA, California
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
AL GREEN, Texas
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
MELISSA L. BEAN, Illinois
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota
RON KLEIN, Florida
CHARLES WILSON, Ohio
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado
JOE DONNELLY, Indiana
BILL FOSTER, Illinois
CARSON, Indiana
ANDRE
JACKIE SPEIER, California
TRAVIS CHILDERS, Mississippi
WALT MINNICK, Idaho
JOHN ADLER, New Jersey
MARY JO KILROY, Ohio
STEVE DRIEHAUS, Ohio
SUZANNE KOSMAS, Florida
ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
JIM HIMES, Connecticut
GARY PETERS, Michigan
DAN MAFFEI, New York

SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama

MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware
PETER T. KING, New York
EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
RON PAUL, Texas
DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
WALTER B. JONES, JR., North Carolina
JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois
GARY G. MILLER, California
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia
JEB HENSARLING, Texas
SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey
J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania
RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas
TOM PRICE, Georgia
PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina
JOHN CAMPBELL, California
ADAM PUTNAM, Florida
MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota
KENNY MARCHANT, Texas
THADDEUS G. McCOTTER, Michigan
KEVIN McCARTHY, California
BILL POSEY, Florida
LYNN JENKINS, Kansas
CHRISTOPHER LEE, New York
ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota
LEONARD LANCE, New Jersey

JEANNE M. ROSLANOWICK, Staff Director and Chief Counsel

(II)

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SUBCOMMITTEE

ON

OVERSIGHT

AND

INVESTIGATIONS

DENNIS MOORE, Kansas, Chairman

STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
RON KLEIN, Florida
JACKIE SPEIER, California
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
JOHN ADLER, New Jersey
MARY JO KILROY, Ohio
STEVE DRIEHAUS, Ohio
ALAN GRAYSON, Florida

JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois

PATRICK T. MCHENRY, North Carolina
RON PAUL, Texas
MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota
CHRISTOPHER LEE, New York
ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota

(III)

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CONTENTS
Page

Hearing held on:

September 17, 2009 ..........................................................................................
Appendix:
September 17, 2009 ..........................................................................................

1
31

WITNESSES
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2009
Hahn, Gregory B., Principal, Crowe Horwath LLP ..............................................
Horne, Stephen C., Senior Vice President for Master Data Management and
Integration Services, Dow Jones Enterprise Media Group ...............................
Kimner, Thomas, Risk Manager, Americas Risk Practice, SAS Institute, Inc. ..
Krishna, Dilip, Vice President, Financial Services and Insurance, Teradata
Corporation ...........................................................................................................
Marlow, Susan, Chief Executive Officer, Smart Data Strategies, Inc., on behalf of MAPPS ......................................................................................................
Quaadman, Thomas, Executive Director, Center for Capital Markets Competitiveness, U.S. Chamber of Commerce ................................................................
Schwartz, Ari, Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, Center for Democracy and Technology ............................................................................................
Zelner, Bennet A., Professor, Fuqua School of Business, Duke University,
on behalf of the Probity Group ............................................................................

15
9
18
11
13
8
6
16

APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Hahn, Gregory B. .............................................................................................
Horne, Stephen C. ............................................................................................
Kimner, Thomas ...............................................................................................
Krishna, Dilip ...................................................................................................
Marlow, Susan ..................................................................................................
Quaadman, Thomas .........................................................................................
Schwartz, Ari ....................................................................................................
Zelner, Bennet A. ..............................................................................................
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED

FOR THE

RECORD

Moore, Hon. Dennis:

Written responses to questions submitted to Thomas Quaadman ...............
Written statement of the Epicurus Institute .................................................
Written statement of Ann Fulmer, Vice President, Interthinx, Inc. ............
Letter from various undersigned organizations in support of H.R. 1242 ....
Written statement of SecondMarket, Inc. ......................................................
Maloney, Hon. Carolyn:
Letter from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce .................................................
Letter from Bennet Zelner ...............................................................................
Additional information provided for the record by Gregory Hahn ...............
Additional information provided for the record by Stephen Horne ..............
Additional information provided for the record by Ari Schwartz .................

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UTILIZING TECHNOLOGY TO IMPROVE TARP

AND FINANCIAL OVERSIGHT
Thursday, September 17, 2009

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND INVESTIGATIONS,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room
2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dennis Moore [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Moore of Kansas, Lynch,
Klein, Adler; Biggert, Lee, and Paulsen.
Also present: Representative Maloney.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. This hearing of the Subcommittee
on Oversight and Investigations of the House Financial Services
Committee will come to order. Our hearing this morning is entitled, Utilizing Technology to Improve TARP and Financial Oversight. This is our 7th O&I Subcommittee hearing of the year, and
our 3rd one that will at least touch on the very important issue of
TARP oversight.
I am glad to have a diverse panel with a number of witnesses
coming from the private sector, and Ill simply point out that we
obviously are not endorsing one firms technology over another
whether any firm is represented here today or not. But we wanted
to start a discussion of what kind of technology is currently being
used in the marketplace today, and how the government might use
these technologies to conduct stronger oversight and ensure greater
transparency.
We will begin this hearing this morning with members opening
statements, up to 10 minutes per side. We will then hear testimony
from our witnesses, and after that, members will each have up to
5 minutes to question our witnesses. The Chair advises our witnesses to please keep your opening statements to 5 minutes. Given
the size of our panel, we want to keep things moving so we can get
to members questions. Also, any unanswered question can always
be followed-up in writing for the record, and I encourage you to do
that.
I ask unanimous consent that Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney,
a member of the full committee, but not this subcommittee, be allowed to participate in todays hearing. Is there any objection?
Without objection, it is so ordered.
All members opening statements, without objection, will be made
a part of the record, and I now recognize myself for up to 5 minutes
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for an opening statement. This week marks the one-year anniversary of the collapse and bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, the moment when the financial crisis really accelerated, requiring the
need for Congress to respond by creating the $700 billion TARP
program to stabilize the financial sector.
I have been pleased with the progress by banks in not only paying the initial TARP investments back to the government in recent
weeks and months, but also dividends and warrant repurchases
that have been very profitable for taxpayers. The Treasury Department recently reported that a total of $70.3 billion of TARP investments have been repaid through August of 2009. Total dividends
and interest payments received by the government in excess of initial TARP principal repayments is $9.36 billion. At our last subcommittee hearing in July on TARP warrant repurchases, I think
its no surprise that due to our raising public awareness on that
issue, Goldman Sachs agreed to repurchase the full value of their
TARP warrants at $1.1 billion. It is clear that simply raising public
awareness and increasing transparency can reap big rewards for
taxpayers, especially as we continue to monitor the use of TARP
funds, and we will continue to do that.
Of the $700 billion of TARP funds authorized, $644 billion has
been planned for particular TARP programs, with $433 billion of
that money committed to specific institutions under signed contracts. As the chairman of this Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, I fully intend to keep the pressure up until every single
dollar of TARP funds has been repaid to taxpayers. Today, we will
be hearing from a variety of witnesses with expertise on how technology might be used by the government to increase transparency,
oversight, and accountability, especially with the unique nature of
financial markets and activity. I thank our witnesses for being
here, and I look forward to your testimony.
One specific proposal we will discuss in H.R. 1242, the TARP Accountability and Disclosure Act, authored by my colleague from
New York and the chairwoman of the Joint Economic Committee,
Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, I am proud to be a co-sponsor
of H.R. 1242, because it will utilize technology thats readily available today and will help standardize and monitor TARP data, so
that not only the government, but more importantly U.S. taxpayers, can know and see for themselves how the funds are being
spent.
Another idea that I know Ms. Marlow will raise is the idea of
creating a national land parcel database and put into use as an
early warning system that could monitor the housing market more
closely and provide greater transparency. How can the government
better utilize these technologies to conduct and prove financial
oversight?
Finally, I want to thank my friend and the ranking member of
the subcommittee, Judy Biggert, for calling for a hearing on technology. I thought it was a great idea, and I hope today is the first
of many conversations on this important issue so our financial
agencies can better utilize the latest cutting edge technology to improve not only TARP oversight, but coordinated oversight of all financial services activity.

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I now recognize for 5 minutes the ranking member of the subcommittee and my friend and colleague from Illinois, Judy Biggert.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Chairman Moore, thank you for holding this hearing. As you just said, I requested a hearing on technology several
times this year and I am pleased we are finally able to make it
happen. It is my hope that we can follow-up todays discussion with
a second hearing to hear the testimony of the financial regulators.
A financial oversight hearing on technology may not sound riveting to most, however, I would wager it will become more attention grabbing as American taxpayers learn about how technology
could help Federal financial regulators detect waste, fraud, and
abuse, as well as address risk within the financial institutions and
markets.
There is no question that with record deficits and debt, we must
find the best and most cost-effective way to enhance the transparency and accountability of the $700 billion TARP program, trillions in taxpayer funds committed by the Federal Reserve, and
other Federal expenditures in the financial sector. Perhaps if the
Treasury used more up-to-date technology to track TARP funds, we
would know clearly how TARP recipients have used the funds.
However, the question remains unanswered, and theres no question that our financial regulators have antiquated IT systems that
have resulted in inadequate regulatory oversight and enforcement.
A GAO report concluded that HUDs 15-year-old IT systems contribute to the Departments inability to effectively and efficiently
perform mission critical operations, including those integral to our
Nations economic recovery and investment activities. For example,
in June GAO, issued a report on reverse mortgages for seniors.
Among several findings, it determined that certain phone only
housing counselors are not providing seniors with required information. Couldnt better technology infrastructure improve the accountability in this program?
Its unacceptable for ineffective or inefficient technology to lessen
the transparency and accountability of Federal programs and agencies, and constituents, the American taxpayers who give their hardearned dollars every paycheck, are rightfully outraged when Federal agencies allow funds to be abused by organizations like
ACORN. According to a staff report issued by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, I quote: Since 1994,
more than $53 million in Federal funds have been pumped into
ACORN for services like housing counseling. Yet, how is this
money spent?
The report mentions that 70 ACORN employees have been convicted in 12 States for voter registration fraud. The report even
credits ACORN with helping elect in my home State, Illinois, nowdisgraced, former Governor Blagojevich, but I dont really dont
want to get into that. So all these things are unacceptable, and the
common theme, that all these funds for TARP, ACORN, and other
activities are taxpayer dollars, and Americans have a right to expect that each penny will be accounted for properly.
Federal regulators need effective tools like state-of-the-art technology and experts to track and flag the misuse or illegal use of
taxpayer funds. Its no secret that one of the reasons our country
got into this financial mess is because there are simply too many

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4
regulators who werent doing their job and were not communicating
effectively across agencies. Plus, Im very skeptical that for consumers the answer is making government bigger, by creating a
new Federal agency as little more than a facade of reform. And
dont get me wrong. We need financial reform, and bailouts and the
government practice of picking winners and losers and restoring
market discipline.
We need smart, clear, and strong regulations to get our financial
system back on track so that our economy can grow, businesses can
create desperately needed jobs, and American families can secure
credit. Technology alone is not the only answer to address the
shortcomings in our financial regulatory system and Federal programs, but it certainly appears that it could be a large part of the
answer.
With that, I welcome todays witnesses and I look forward to our
discussion. I yield back.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you very much, and I now
recognize Congressman Lynch for 2 minutes. Sir?
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member
Biggert.
I really appreciate that we are having this hearing and I appreciate all the witnesses coming forward to help us with our work.
This is an important hearing in that it not only addresses the oversight capabilities of Congress and this committee with respect to
the TARP program, which I voted against, but I have the unhappy
task of trying to track some of this money, which is not being done
without great difficulty.
But also, because of the new financial regulations reform that
were considering, our responsibilities will be expanded, as will
yours. And we have to figure out a way that we can provide transparency and accountability to the American taxpayer. In this one
TARP program that I opposed, we put out $700 billion in taxpayer
funds to bail out the banks, and if that werent maddening enough,
we have had a very, very difficult time tracking where the money
went, what it was spent for, and whether or not the program was
abused or used correctly. There were no accountability measures in
the bill to allow us to track.
It was done in great haste, and I understand that, but now we
have a chance to reset our capabilities to oversee this type of program and all the others that are being considered. So Im extremely
interested in hearing your perspectives, because of the many talents that we have here on the panel today, and I look forward to
your testimony. I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, sir. Congresswoman
Maloney, you are recognized for 3 minutes.
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman and Ranking
Member Biggert, for holding this hearing, and our panelists.
As you know, I have introduced H.R. 1242, the TARP Accountability and Disclosure Act, along with Peter King. It is a bipartisan
bill and it is very notable that this week marks the one-year anniversary of the financial crisis. It was on September 15th that Bank
of America purchased Merrill Lynch; that Lehman Brothers filed
for Chapter 11; and that the government moved to bail out AIG;

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5
and also, President Bush signed legislation establishing the $700
billion TARP fund.
Since then, much of this fund has been distributed, and I will
note that over $70 billion has been repaid. And I join the chairman
in looking forward to all of this money being paid. But, from the
beginning, the public, the media, and Members of Congress have
raised concerns that the lack of transparency and accountability
could lead to massive waste, fraud and abuse of the TARP funds.
And the complexity of the institutions receiving these funds, combined with the volume of information they report, have made it
very difficult to capture a comprehensive understanding of how
these funds are being used.
Using current, proven technology and readily available financial
data as contemplated under my bill, it would be possible to get a
complete picture of the actions of the TARP fund for recipients and
contractors in real, usable time. Currently, TARP funds are collected in 25 different Federal agencies. Ill place in the record
where they are. It is totally unusable. The Administration will say
its available, but its not usable. You would have to go to 25 different agencies to put it together, and agencies will say the information is available, but it is not in a usable form. And I have
raised this in several hearings and in letters to the Treasury.
Traditional audits provide reporting, but not true transparency,
and I would like to put it in terms of the difference between an autopsy and a diagnosis. An audit can be thought of as a financial
autopsy. It may uncover issues and problems, but too late to effectively address them. It is far more effective to diagnose issues and
problems as early as possible so that they can be addressed quickly. And by using technology and information that is currently available, it is possible to oversee these funds in a timely way and allow
more time for addressing potential problems.
I would like to place in the record a broad coalition of supporters,
over three dozen outside groups from across the political landscape,
including the Center for Democracy and Technology, and the U.S.
Chamber of Commerce. Both are here today and both are supporting this bill. And the panelists today have a variety of unique
perspectives, not only on transparency for TARP data, but on
transparency throughout the financial services area.
I would like to thank them very much for being here and again
commend the chairman and ranking member for their support. I
look forward to the testimony. Thank you.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you.
I am pleased today to introduce our witnesses. First, well hear
from Mr. Ari Schwartz, vice president and chief operating officer
for the Center for Democracy and Technology. Next will be Mr.
Thomas Quaadman, executive director for financial reporting policy, U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
I will turn to Congressman John Adler to introduce his constituent.
Mr. ADLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And with respect to the other witnesses, welcome to all of you.
I am particularly pleased to welcome Mr. Steve Horne, the senior
vice president for Master Data Management for Dow Jones and
Company. He has been a resident of New Jersey since age 3, simi-

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lar to me, and his family enjoys spending their summers in Lovely.
It is a beautiful, beautiful community in my district in Long Beach
Island. Please come often, spend money. Master Data Management
for Dow Jones is headquartered in South Brunswick, New Jersey,
and houses 1,300 employees.
Mr. Horne, welcome to the Financial Services Subcommittee on
Oversight and Investigations. I look forward to your testimony and
that of your fellow witnesses on this important topic.
Mr. HORNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you. And next, we will hear
from Mr. Krishna, vice president, financial services and insurance.
After him will be Ms. Susan Marlow, chief executive officer, Smart
Data Strategies, Inc., on behalf of MAPPS. I will let Ranking Member Biggert introduce our next witness.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to introduce Mr. Greg Hahn, who actually is from
Grand Rapids, Michigan, but he is going to be testifying on behalf
of Crowe Horwath, an international accounting and technology
company. The largest office is in my district in Oakbrook, Illinois.
For the past several years, Mr. Hahn has been responsible for
Crowe Horwaths anti-money laundering or AML clients in the
United States, helping these businesses to develop and implement
and optimize their AML compliance programs, and he has helped
organizations define customer relations management strategy and
implement technology solutions that support that strategy. So he
specializes in areas of governance, risk and compliance program development. He graduated summa cum laude from Central Michigan
University with a bachelor of science degree in computer sciences.
Thank you, and welcome, Mr. Hahn.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. And for our last two witnesses, we
have Professor Bennet A. Zelner of Duke University, as well as Mr.
Thomas Kimner, risk manager, Americas Risk Practice, SAS Institute, Inc.
Without objection, your written statements will be made a part
of the record.
Mr. Schwartz, sir, you are recognized for 5 minutes to provide a
brief summary of your statement.
STATEMENT OF ARI SCHWARTZ, VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
OPERATING OFFICER, CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY

Mr. SCHWARTZ. Thank you, Chairman Moore. Mr. Chairman,

Ranking Member Biggert, and members of the committee, on behalf of the Center for Democracy and Technology, I would like to
thank you for holding this important hearing today and inviting us
to testify.
I am here to discuss two ideas that are before this subcommittee.
One is the increased oversight of TARP funds, and the second is
coordination and assistance to better analyze and address property
vacancy and abandonment, both using technology. Both of these
ideas offer agencies the ability to create important technology tools
to provide greater oversight of the use of taxpayer money.
CDT has a couple of important, but easy to implement, improvements that require the agencies to keep the best interests of tax-

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7
payers and property owners in mind that should be of interest to
the subcommittee in its oversight role. H.R. 1242, Representative
Maloneys bill, would require the Treasury Department to establish
a database that would provide ongoing, continuous updates on the
distribution of TARP funds. This database is vitally necessary to
help track the hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars at work. To
accomplish this, the bill would create a centralized information repository from private and public sources to track progress.
CDT, along with Open the Government, the Project on Government Oversight, OMB Watch, and Taxpayers for Common Sense all
support the creation of the database and urge that H.R. 1242 go
a step further by requiring the centralized repository of TARP information be made available to the public on the Web. Providing
TARP information directly to the public online will strengthen
oversight. In particular, it will provide the media, watchdog groups,
researchers, and concerned citizens with the ability to analyze the
data, reuse it, and present it in novel ways, uncovering positive
and negative trends and anomalies.
Clearly, there is no prohibition in the bill against online access,
but we ask that the text of the bill explicitly require that the nonpropriety TARP oversight resources be made available to the public
on the Web to ensure that agencies keep the public interest and direct accountability in mind. Financial Stability.gov, the Web site
that is now online, offers a useful start for TARP oversight. However, there are many TARP activities and related public data that
are not available. H.R. 1242 should help take this important resource to the next level.
The second idea calls for the creation of a regional real property
data system, tying property records to land parcels. These data systems could tie tax and foreclosure information to location data to
create new ways to analyze and mitigate predatory lending practices, reverse red-lining and foreclosures. The bill also calls for improvement of these data systems in order to streamline and improve procedures around urban renewal strategy.
CDT supports the goals of this effort as well, but we urge the
committee to specifically require privacy and security oversight,
and improve data accuracy in the effort to create centralized data
systems. Currently, counties manage their own geospatial data. As
less localized data systems are created and merged, concerns over
the differing standards for this data must be addressed. In particular, CDT has seen a wide range of local practices for providing
detailed images of homes and tying this information to other public
records.
In Ohio and Arizona, for example, we have seen cases where the
specificity of this data has led concerns over homeowner safety and
even identity theft in several cases. While there is nothing in this
legislation to prevent the Federal and local agencies from implementing the pilots with privacy and security in mind, we suggest
the relatively minor and light-handed approach of a privacy impact
assessment before these pilots are able to move forward.
In summary, its important to recognize the potential power of
the information coordination and sharing that it can lend to the
oversight of markets. This information should be made directly
available on the Web when possible, to provide greater trans-

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8
parency and accountability to the public. In doing so, we must also
ensure the quality and the privacy of this data. I thank you for
having me here, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Schwartz can be found on page
99 of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Schwartz.
Mr. Quaadman, you are recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS QUAADMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
CENTER FOR CAPITAL MARKETS COMPETITIVENESS, U.S.
CHAMBER OF COMMERCE

Mr. QUAADMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Moore, Ranking Member Biggert, and members of the
subcommittee, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to speak before you on this important issue. And let me say at the outset that
we are testifying today in support of H.R. 1242 and wish to thank
Congresswoman Maloney and Congressman King for their leadership and foresight in introducing this bill.
In the days and weeks following the Lehman collapse, the United
States and the global economy stood on the precipice of an outright
collapse. The credit markets were frozen. Consumers stopped
spending. Businesses started to contract and we saw the first electronic run on financial institutions. To prevent widespread collapse,
the Bush Administration and Congress took unprecedented and
dramatic action in passing the Emergency Economic Stabilization
Act.
The centerpiece to the EESA is the Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP. With over $700 billion in Federal funding, the purpose of TARP is to stabilize the financial system and help create
the conditions for recovery. The United States Chamber of Commerce lobbied for the creation of the TARP program and continues
to support efforts to improve the program to ensure its success.
Simply put, the financial crisis had driven the United States to its
worst economic predicament since the Great Depression. In order
for businesses to function, and for an economic recovery to take
hold, the financial services sector needed immediate shoring up and
that vehicle was TARP.
TARP was intended to purchase toxic assets and take them off
the balance sheets of financial institutions; however, Secretary
Paulsen opted to use an alternative provision of the bill when it became apparent that the valuation of toxic assets was too difficult,
and that a purchase program would take too long to have an immediate impact. Consequently, it was decided the TARP fund should
be used to inject capital into struggling or systemically important
financial firms.
The TARP program has had its problems, but a year later we can
say that an outright collapse was avoided. The financial sector is
stabilizing, and the first signs are appearing that an economic recovery has taken hold. That being said, the situation is still fragile.
While the Chamber has stood by the TARP program, we have also
supported efforts to improve its implementation. As with any government program, the Chamber believes that there needs to be accountability for taxpayer dollars. This is particularly true with the
massive expenditure of government moneys through an expedited

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process. Simply put, the American people have a right to know
how, where, and when their hard-earned money is being spent.
President Obama recently announced that firms that have fully
repaid their TARP funds have provided taxpayers with a return of
17 percent. This proves that TARP can be successful. However, any
potential misallocation or misuse of taxpayer dollars may erode
support for the TARP program, undermine confidence of firms in
TARP, and possibly harm efforts to stabilize the financial sector.
By building transparency into the administration of TARP, accountability will be enhanced. Taxpayers can have trust in the program and expenditure resources.
Accountability for the use of taxpayer dollars helps establish the
confidence that is needed for TARP to stabilize the financial sector.
Because of this need for accountability and transparency, the
Chamber wrote to Congress on June 11, 2009, in support of H.R.
1242. This bipartisan bill sponsored by Representatives Maloney
and King represents an important step forward in creating and enforcing accountability. Currently, information regarding TARP
funds are spread across multiple agencies, using incompatible formats and it takes a daunting task for officials and taxpayers to understand how funds are being used.
The Maloney-King bill would require the use of existing technologies to create a single, publicly accessible database that can
track TARP funds in near real time. This transparency will help
avoid the misuse of funds and develop a level of confidence that is
integral to the success of TARP. The implementation of this bill
would provide a benefit that would outweigh costs.
That being said, we also believe that there are some issues that
need to be addressed with this implementation. In other pieces of
legislation through the Privacy Act and Gramm-Leach-Bliley, Congress has taken steps to ensure the privacy and careful disclosure
of financial information of businesses and individuals alike. We
think that these are important issues that need to be addressed in
the implementation of this legislation. We also believe that information should be used in a contextual basis so that discussion of
its context would provide a basis for a better understanding.
I understand that my time is up, Mr. Chairman, and my full remarks are in the record. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Quaadman can be found on page
95 of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you for noticing your time,
too, and I appreciate that.
Mr. Horne, you are recognized, sir, for up to 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF STEPHEN C. HORNE, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT
FOR MASTER DATA MANAGEMENT AND INTEGRATION
SREVICES, DOW JONES ENTERPRISE MEDIA GROUP

Mr. HORNE. Thank you very much. Good morning, Chairman

Moore, Ranking Member Biggert, members of the subcommittee,
and Congresswoman Maloney.
My name is Steve Horne. I am vice president of Master Data
Management for the Dow Jones Enterprise Media Group. I have
spent over 30 years building complex databases by transforming

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highly complicated data, and I think that we have all heard that
this is highly complicated data, into usable information.
Dow Jones has provided transparency to the marketplace in the
form of indexes, publicly and privately held corporate information
and analysis for over 100 years. We are kind of in the transparency
business. Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today. Since
the passage of TARP, Dow Jones has been a strong advocate of the
use of technology to provide transparency to the program that to
date has been somewhat opaque to both this House and to the
American people.
The SIGTARP and the independent Congressional Oversight
Committee have both made very strong statements that further action must be taken to make TARP more transparent Transparency
is not just about casting a light and reporting to the institutions
receiving TARP funds, but in his report to Congress on July 21,
2009, the SIGTARP noted that we need a systematic program designed to capture appropriate information necessary to prevent
waste, fraud, and abuse of TARP funds.
We support the goals of H.R. 1242 and the actions of Congresswoman Maloney and Congressman King in terms of providing true
transparency to the TARP program. Real-time data-driven reporting and analysis provides the American taxpayer comfort that their
money is being used as intended under TARP, and, potentially,
other future programs to be covered under the new financial reform
act. Proper reporting procedures are not only missing from the
TARP program, but theyre missing from almost all the current
programs distributing Federal funds to private institutions.
There was no clearly established mandate that such procedures
in place to govern the distribution of funds from any sector of the
federally-funding infrastructure are in place. Dow Jones application as currently in use worldwide demonstrates how transparency
has been delivered to the commercial sector. And I have been asked
to show some examples of transparency in the commercial world.
Dow Jones is well-known for its newswires, Factiva.com, and companies and executives applications that take advantage of massive
data collection and maintenance efforts that we go through. And I
have a set of slides out there.
If you see on slide 2, it talks a little bit about those efforts. We
have also developed for these applications many capabilities to report on and provide comprehensive visualization of information. We
give our customers insight into the specific areas concern.
On slide 3, that shows a little bit about our efforts, but there are
many firms here that are representing different efforts for visualization and reporting, and geospatial analysis, which is very important relative to accomplishing the task at hand. So for example we
have every TARP participant flagged in our database, so we know
who they are. Fine. Now, we can just assemble all the information
around them.
For example, our database and tools provided customers with the
ability to assess risks in respect to prospective customers and partners. We maintain a database of over 600,000 individuals and entities that based upon prior history could represent a legal or
reputational risk to a company doing business with such people or
entity.

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We provide anti-corruption applications for tracking State-owned
companies and other entities around the world that could pose
risks under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. And we also have
a financial tracking system to trace funding through our sanctions
alert program for Counter Terrorism Funds Tracking, and nobody
would want any of this money to end up in that place. These are
just a few of the types of capabilities a system developed under
H.R. 1242 could have in order to better manage and track funds
and understand their use.
To provide the level of transparency called for in this bill is not
simple. Currently, the Treasury subscribes to many different
sources of data, including our own. This data is in distinct formats
that are not compared or aggregated in such a way to identify
anomalies as to transform the data into usable information. According to the SIGTARP, Treasury has declined to adopt this recommendation, calling any such reporting meaningless in light of
the inherent fungibility of money.
When I testified before the Domestic Policy Subcommittee of the
House Oversight and Government Reform Committee in March, I
showed that even though the money may be fungible, its also volumetric, which means that it can be tracked. This fact has been validated by many top economists.
The Master Database example shown in slide 4 shows a lot of
different sources of data and we manage and maintain a good
many, if not all the sources, to be integrated into a standardized
single version of truth. This will require a considerable amount of
effort on behalf of an integrator. The database can be refined based
upon specific rules and regulatory objectives to be measured
against the facts presented from various sources of information. By
doing this and performing extensive analysis, you can identify
anomalies or issues or problems within the data.
The analysts can identify these anomalies where the data is incomplete, and when different between different sources, etc., and
can red flag places where this is a problem. And I realize that my
time is just about up. I want to thank you that the rest of my information here is for the record, and I hope that the panel will take
a look at some of the other information we have included to assist
in their evaluation.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Horne can be found on page 38
of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Horne.
I do appreciate very much the witnesses recognizing their time
limitations because we do have several other witnesses to testify as
well as questioning for each of the witnesses. So I appreciate the
witnesses cooperation here.
Next, we recognize Mr. Krishna. Sir, you are recognized for 5
minutes.
STATEMENT OF DILIP KRISHNA, VICE PRESIDENT, FINANCIAL
SERVICES AND INSURANCE, TERADATA CORPORATION

Mr. KRISHNA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Moore, Ranking Member Biggert, and members of the
subcommittee, my name is Dilip Krishna, representing Teradata
Corporation. Thank you for the invitation to offer testimony today

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before your subcommittee. Before I begin, I would also like to
thank Congresswoman Maloney for her leadership in introducing
H.R. 1242.
Teradata Corporation endorses H.R. 1242 without reservation,
and encourages the Congress to pass this legislation as soon as possible. Teradata is among the worlds largest companies focused
solely on analytics and data warehousing. Our technology provides
businesses and governments with the ability to leverage detailed,
level data thats enabling these entities to recognize emerging
trends and take appropriate corrective action quickly.
The problem of comprehensive governmental oversight is immensely important today. The economic crisis of the last 2 years
has taught us that our financial institutions are truly a national
asset, the abuse of which is to the detriment of every American. To
paraphrase Joel Grey and Liza Minnelli from Cabaret, we have
learned that money does indeed make the world go around. Therefore, thorough, effective oversight of the financial system is critical
to our future success. At the same time, we all want efficient government; and, critically, we need to ensure that any oversight system continues to allow the financial sector to provide the same
high level of innovation and leadership that has propelled the prosperity of our market-based system for well over 2 centuries.
Financial oversight depends on the ability to effectively monitor
financial system risks with a high degree of frequency to detect
warning signs early. Regulators must have the proper tools to accomplish their mission by quickly establishing the root cause of the
warnings and addressing them promptly and appropriately. But,
this alone is not enough. As we have seen in the past 2 years, focusing on known risks alone exposes us to risks that were not predicted. And any financial system therefore must also have a predictive component.
The technology exists today to combine real-time monitoring and
ongoing predictive capabilities within the same system, and based
on the same detail-level data. Additional tools are employed, such
as statistical analysis and visualization technology, to help quickly
identify outliers and interpret risks. This analytic technology can
allow us to develop an effective oversight regime, keep cost constraint, and at the same time allow continued innovation and
growth in the financial services.
Already, the financial sector uses data analytics technology in diverse areas ranging from marketing to fraud management. Financial services companies have, for example, employed data analytics
to save tens of millions of dollars every year by rapidly distinguishing fraud attacks and acting to prevent them in real time.
Large global firms routinely use such technology for financial risk
management and anti-money laundering detection.
In fact, the common framework for creating processed information from multiple sources of data is currently evolving across both
the financial services and technology industries. Many large technology firms from across the spectrum also utilize essentially the
same approach, and their customers in every industry are responding by implementing this concept within their enterprise.
Chairman Moore and members of the subcommittee, this is very
good news indeed for proponents of financial oversight, because it

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results in the various parts of the data analytics process being perfected at the same time. Keeping with technology trends in general,
not only are the capabilities improving at a tremendous rate, but
costs are also dropping significantly. Simply put, the time has
never been better for leveraging information technology to create a
strong system of financial oversight. It has proven it is successful,
and it can be implemented today.
Again, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you this
morning. I look forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Krishna can be found on page 61
of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Krishna. We appreciate your testimony. And, Ms. Marlow, you are next recognized
for 5 minutes. I will remind each of the witnesses again that your
written statements are received in the record. Thank you.
Ms. Marlow?
STATEMENT OF SUSAN MARLOW, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
SMART DATA STRATEGIES, INC., ON BEHALF OF MAPPS

Ms. MARLOW. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, my name is Susan Marlow. I am the president of Smart
Data Strategies, a woman-owned business specializing in land
records management. And Im here today representing MAPPS, a
national association of more than 160 private geospatial firms
throughout the United States.
I have the pleasure of serving as chair of the MAPPS Cadastre
Task Force. A Cadastre is a parcel based register of land or land
information system. Many nations around the globe have national
cadastres or national property databases in large measure thanks
to the generosity of the American people, as these systems have
been paid for by AID, World Bank, and other taxpayer-supported
institutions. However, in the United States there are 3,200 counties, and as a result when it comes to parcel data, there are 3,200plus puzzle pieces of non-standard data that dont quite fit together. While millions of dollars are spent on the creation and
maintenance of this data at the local level, the investments are not
being realized at the Federal level due to lack of coordination.
We witnessed the devastating effects foreclosures have had on
our Nationnot just financial, but societal impacts on neighborhoods and communitiesthrough a rise of crime, theft, vandalism,
blight, and unsafe health conditions. Therefore, it is imperative
that we utilize available technologies such as parcel-based
geospatial data and systems to monitor and protect something so
vital to our countrys well being.
The introduction of Google Earth and Microsoft Virtual Earth
have shown all of us the power of geospatial information. The
geospatial market is expanding into every area of business through
the enhancement of visualization and analytical capabilities. The
use of this decision support technology is critical to all levels of
government. We have all seen the infamous John Snow map plotting the incidence and location of cholera in London in 1854, just
as we have recently seen in the newspapers or on television maps
showing the spread of the H1N1 swine flu.

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A national parcel system would be a visualization, an analytical
tool, that would allow us to see the geographic location, distribution, and most importantly, spatial relationships of foreclosed properties. It is unfortunate that today many Federal analyses and decisions are being made using the wrong level of geography. For example, under the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, HMDA, data on
mortgage transactions is collected at the census track level, not at
the individual parcel level.
The parcel layer is much more detailed. It contains information
about the value, improvements, taxes, and the physical location of
the property. Parcel data can provide an early warning system to
track changes in the market, just as the ones we saw in the recent
years with mortgage foreclosures. We urge Congress to amend
HMDA to require the collection of parcel data as a first step toward
that early warning system. For decades, numerous studies have
recommended the use of parcel data at the national level and called
for improved national coordination.
I summarized some of these in my written statement. It is astonishing to note that the National Research Council, National Academy of Sciences found in 1980 that the technology was adequate
for the task, but the major obstacles to its establishment were organizational and institutional. The technology is lightyears ahead
today, but the organization is still a barrier. The National Spatial
Data Infrastructure, NSDI, called for by President Clinton in an
Executive Order and later reaffirmed by President Bush, identified
seven framework layers of geospatial data for use in managing
Federal Government, including a parcel layer.
Sadly, 15 years later, little progress has been made in creating
the NSDI. We urge Congress to authorize and fund this critical information infrastructure. In my statement, we provide comments
and suggestions on several pieces of legislation to help with this effort. Let me conclude by saying 30 years of reports and research
has called for the parcel layer, yet it remains unfunded and incomplete. The problem is not technical. It is political and institutional.
While FedEx can track the location of millions of packages per
day moving around the world, the Federal Government does not
track the location of land, and it is stationary. While the Federal
Government has identified numerous needs for parcel data, there
is only sporadic use due to failed coordination between Federal,
State, and local agencies. When one looks at the agenda for this
Congress from mortgages to climate change, from healthcare to a
smart energy grid, they cannot be effectively implemented today
because of the Federal Governments failure to properly utilize
geospatial data.
Mr. Chairman, we commend you for your interest and leadership,
and we stand ready to work with Congress and the Executive
Branch to better serve the geospatial needs of the American people
in financial services oversight and a variety of other national needs
and applications. The technology exists. A robust, qualified, and
competent private sector is in place, and the solutions are waiting
to be implemented. What is lacking is demand-driven leadership
from the Federal Government.
Thank you so much.

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[The prepared statement of Ms. Marlow can be found on page 67
of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you for your testimony, Ms.
Marlow. Mr. Hahn, sir, you are recognized for 5 minutes. And
again, all of your written testimony will be received in the record.
Thank you, sir. Mr. Hahn?
STATEMENT OF GREGORY B. HAHN, PRINCIPAL, CROWE
HORWATH LLP

Mr. HAHN. Good morning. My name is Greg Hahn of Crowe

Horwath LLP. Let me first thank the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify today. Crowe Horwath has developed and implemented targeted technology solutions to assist financial institutions
in compliance and oversight activities related to Federal regulations. We would also like to share how some of those solutions may
assist the Federal Government in its oversight practices of the financial services industry.
Crowe Horwath is a professional services firm with the core skill
of bringing process, industry, and regulatory expertise blended
with technology skills, which allows us to develop targeted tools
that fill the gaps where large technology vendors have not focused.
As a worldwide professional services firm, the 8th largest in the
United States and 9th in the world, we are not focused on the development of public policy, but rather, to assist our clients in developing solutions that are compliant and operationally effective.
We have significant experience working with most State governments, have conducted special Federal projects like working for the
RTC during the savings and loan bailout, and have one of the most
established track records of work with commercial banks. We also
have significant experience assisting clients on issues related to the
Bank Secrecy Act in supporting anti-money laundering or AML
regulations.
Crowe Horwath has worked with over 100 financial services companies to develop, implement, optimize, and test AML compliance
programs. Our technical solutions have provided automation and
repeatability to historically manual or non-existent oversight processes. When the Patriot Act was passed in 2001, provisions related
to financial institution compliance and strengthening for the Bank
Secrecy Act raised the bar for compliance significantly.
I would like to walk you through two examples today. In working
with our clients we found that it was difficult to develop a process
for identifying higher risk customers, because additional information was needed when an account was opened in order to make
that evaluation. We developed a technology platform that would
walk the employee opening the account through a logical flow that
asks the appropriate questions of customers to maintain a competitive customer experience. In essence, each customer interaction
was customized or dynamic based upon the information that was
provided. As more guidance was made available, we added the ability to conduct an annual review of the customer relationship to determine if the risks presented were still in line with the institutions risk profile.
A second example of the client need was to standardize the review and documentation process for investigation potential, sus-

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picious activity. We focused on two specific challenges: how to drive
more efficiency into a process that was repetitive, while continuing
to leverage the individuals expertise and judgment as it related to
identifying suspicious activity; and how to create a robust case file
that increased the quality of the final work product.
My firm developed a patent pending solution that models each
institutions investigative process and focuses an analyst on collecting information that is specific to the type of customer and the
types of transaction activity in question. We then collect all the information and reportable fields, which has allowed us to generate
the case file summary automatically. This functionality alone has
saved analysts hours in writing up case files. In recent months, we
have found this application flexible enough to address additional
areas of risk management, such as fraud and the identification and
monitoring of changes in credit portfolio quality.
As we continue to work on emerging and changing regulatory
compliance issues, we will leverage the platforms we have created
to give our clients the ability to comply with todays requirements
and give them the capability to adapt as the regulatory environment evolves. We believe these cutting edge technologies in the
world of financial services have merit in application for the Federal
environment, especially today.
I want to thank the committee for asking Crowe Horwath to appear this morning. I would be pleased to answer any of your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hahn can be found on page 32
of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Hahn, for your
testimony.
Professor Zelner, sir, you are recognized for up to 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF PROFESSOR BENNET A. ZELNER, FUQUA
SCHOOL OF BUSINESS, DUKE UNIVERSITY, ON BEHALF OF
THE PROBITY GROUP

Mr. ZELNER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, first

of all, thank you for holding this hearing on the use of technology
to improve TARP and financial oversight. Thank you as well for
giving me the opportunity to appear before you today.
I am going to outline for you technology that my colleagues and
I at Probity Group have developed, a technology known as the
Probity Gradient, which we believe can help achieve the twin
goals of improved financial oversight and also optimal allocation of
TARP funds, both in general and as embodied in H.R. 1242.
Just by way of background, I am a professor at Duke Universitys
Fuqua School of Business, and my colleagues at the Probity Group
including a Wharton school professor as well as several executives
with extensive experience in risk management. We founded the
Probity Group to help business executives and policymakers develop strategies and policies for assessing and mitigating high impact risks to complex systems composed of tangible and intangible
assets.
The Probity Gradient, the technology that I want to talk about
today, was first developed to assess and mitigate risks to tangible
asset systems, primarily infrastructure systems, ranging from stock

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exchanges and computer centers to oil refineries and transportation
systems. We have also developed a technology known as PSI to
assess and mitigate risks to intangible assets, such as reputation
and policy; but, its the Gradient that Ill focus on today.
So, the hallmark of the Gradient and the main reason why we
think that Gradient analysis can be so useful for improving financial system oversight and for allocating future TARP funds is its
holistic systems approach, like systems of financial assets, infrastructure systems composed of physical assets are extraordinarily
complex with many interdependent parts that are connected
through myriad channels. As a result and as demonstrated in the
financial crisis that our Nation and the world faced a year ago, a
failure or breach in one part of the system can cascade throughout
the entire system with potentially dire and far-reaching consequences.
The Gradients systems approach provides both numeric indicators of the total value at risk from a breach or a failure in one specific area in one specific asset category, for example, as well as a
visual indication of specific areas of the most high impact vulnerability. With this type of analysis in-hand, its possible not only to
quantify and visualize risk consequences, but also to identify areas
of critical vulnerability before something actually goes wrong.
The Gradient has its roots in a systems engineering approach
known as Failure modes and effects analysis, as well as Trusted
System technology, has been promoted by the NSA since the
1960s. My colleagues at the Probity Group adapted these approaches to the analysis and protection of infrastructure systems as
I have already said. Although the Gradients roots lie outside of the
field of finance, public discussion and analysis of the devastating
financial crisis that began last September have motivated us to explore how the Gradient could be applied to a complex financial system when its overall performance depends on the valuation of myriad, interdependent, often very dissimilar assets, and the viability
of the numerous enterprises that hold these assets.
In the words of a Washington Post Op Ed written by Sebastian
Mallaby last March, We have a set of overseers who evaluate financial institutions one by one, but systemic risk is created by the
interactions between institutions. So, in our opinion, the Gradient
represents a low-cost, highly accurate tool, one with proven reliability that would enable regulators to take the necessary big picture perspective. Gradient analysis would also help policymakers
and regulators choose the best way to allocate TARP funds by identifying assets or asset categories whose failure or breach would
have the most devastating and far-reaching systemic consequences.
Additionally, the systems engineering approach embodied in the
Gradient could supplement existing financial analysis tools to assess the risk consequences of various forms of financial malfeasance, such as fraud, privacy invasion, insider trading, and valuation tampering.
So, thank you again, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, both for the opportunity to tell you why we believe that the
Probity Gradient can help achieve the important goal of strengthening oversight of our complex financial system, and also for the
strong oversight that your subcommittee is providing in this impor-

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tant area. I am happy to take questions today, and also in the future by e-mail.
[The prepared statement of Professor Zelner can be found on
page 103 of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Professor Zelner.
And, finally, Mr. Kimner, you are recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS KIMNER, RISK MANAGER, AMERICAS
RISK PRACTICE, SAS INSTITUTE, INC.

Mr. KIMNER. Chairman Moore, Ranking Member Biggert, and

members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.
By way of background, I have been deploying technology solutions in the financial services area for nearly 20 years in both private and public sectors. SAS itself has been providing technology
to the financial and government sectors for over 30 years. While
my written testimony highlighted a number of themes, Ill only
touch on a few here. The first theme is the increased complexity
of the financial markets.
The financial landscape is more complex today than ever. Markets have become more global and more interrelated. We have a
whole new set of financial instruments that did not exist previously. These instruments are highly complex and require new
modeling techniques to evaluate. Our financial institutions themselves have become much more complicated, particularly as they
begin to enter new lines of business and sectors that they were not
previously in.
As a result, many of these organizations are now facing new regulatory and compliance issues. Oversight of these larger, more complex entities and their portfolios of investments is virtually impossible without bracing technology.
The second theme is the existence of powerful technologies that
could help both banks and regulators. Financial institutions approach risk management using varying degrees of technology that
address market risk, credit risk, asset and liability management,
and operational risk. For regulators, having these technologies
would not only provide better insights into what is happening within a financial institution, but could help provide a comprehensive
assessment to cross institutions.
To illustrate, I would like to mention two specific tools: stress
testing; and performance management. This year, Treasury asked
19 of the countrys largest banks to undergo stress testing and established the scenarios under which the banks should be tested.
Let me offer a few observations about the process. First, to comply
with the new stress test, banks developed a one-time, manual process. It took many people having many conversations over many
hours to translate the requirements into a model. Second, the
stress test conditions may not have gone far enough in all cases.
Other scenarios and other factors involving liquidity, cost of capital, and the economy could have been considered.
Finally, individual banks had flexibility in interpreting applying
the stress test. This creates a potential issue because the perception and perhaps the reality is that different banks receive different treatment. Technology can be of enormous assistance to both

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banks and regulators to streamline the process, provide consistency, assess the impact of additional risk factors, and integrate the
results.
A second technology area growing in importance is performance
management. SAS defines performance management as the process
of using technology to ensure that a projects goals are fully aligned
with the resources and activities needed to achieve them. Performance management tools can help program managers and senior
agency officials understand whether the right activities are being
pursued with the right resources to obtain the stated objectives. Of
course, technology alone cannot solve all the challenges related to
effective program management. Without a clear understanding of
the problem and the objectives, it is virtually impossible to assess
overall effectiveness. The application of technology is no substitute
for clarity.
The third theme is that risk management is both an art and a
science. Risk, quite simply, is uncertainty. Risk management then
is proactively taking steps to reduce the uncertainty. For financial
institutions, risk management involves determining what level of
risk they are willing to absorb and then managing to that risk tolerance. Sound risk management is also about building appropriate
policies and controls. From a regulatory point of view, risk management should involve reviews to see whether financial institutions
are adhering to their own policies, as well as their view regarding
what is an appropriate amount of risk.
Given their broad market charter, regulators must have similar
capabilities as banks to make independent assessments of the risks
within individual banks as well as across all banks. In conclusion,
SASs catch phrase is the power to know. We believe that data and
technology tools are powerful enablers. They allow decisionmakers
to draw mathematically significant insights about their actions and
make better-informed decisions. As markets and financial products
become increasingly complicated and interrelated, regulators would
benefit from deploying technology solutions to assist in understanding and monitoring what is happening. But technology by
itself is not sufficient. Without the right people possessing the right
skills in the right jobs, technology will not improve oversight.
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kimner can be found on page 51
of the appendix.]
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Kimner.
I thank all of our witnesses for their testimony. Now, I recognize
myself for 5 minutes for questions, and I will start, Mr. Horne and
Mr. Krishna, with you if you would, please. As I said in my opening
statement, Im a co-sponsor of Congresswoman Maloneys and Congressman Kings bill H.R. 1242, to better use technology to improve
TARP oversight.
With the approach thats taken in the bill, can you speak to
broader applications of using technology in a similar way, especially as this committee debates financial regulatory reform. If you
have any thoughts or observations, I would appreciate it very
much.
Mr. Horne?

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Mr. HORNE. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Theres a whole series, if you think about data being sort of the ultimate extensible
asset. Anything thats being done in financial reform, frankly,
should reflect the results of analysis that come out of what H.R.
1242s intent was to provide insight and information in terms of
the use of TARP funds.
Its a shame. I have a letter here that I sent to Assistant Secretary Kashkari on October 7, 2008, basically requesting the same
thing that Congresswoman Maloney has put together in her bill;
and, this was a year ago, practically, at this time. And, if you had
the system in place right now, virtually all of the information that
would be needed to determine the Financial Reform Acts rules,
laws, concepts, based upon factual information could be gleaned
from that system, rather than now having to sometimes shoot from
the hip. And, Ill defer to Mr. Krishna on this, but predictive analysis off of this in terms of how to figure out what we should do
could have been part of our current infrastructure to make the financial reformat the much more powerful capability; so, and I will
defer to Mr. Krishna.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Krishna. Do you
have any observations, sir?
Mr. KRISHNA. Thank you, Chairman Moore.
I will speak from our extensive experience in risk management
within the financial industrys space. Risk management and financial oversight is really the other side of that coin. Its really about
thought, about thinking through the types of risks and the types
of events that we really havent anticipated so far, but could affect
in a very adverse way what would happen to the economy. It turns
out that in the financial institutions that we have worked with, a
lot of the process of risk management, in fact, is about data and
bringing data together.
Something like 70 to 90 percent of the time is in fact taken up
in that process as opposed to thinking. What we find is that taking
away the problem of managing data, of aggregating data, in fact,
leads to a tremendous improvement in the capability to do risk
management; and, therefore, financial oversight. The last comment
I will make is that especially financial oversight in this new economy is really about the interactions between financial institutions,
and thats something that requires a tremendous amount of further
thinking and further imagination which have to be tested in a predictive manner; and, we believe that the database as is proposed
in H.R. 1242 is going to be instrumental in providing that further
level of capability.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you, Mr. Krishna.
Ms. Marlow, as you know, a constituent of mine is MAPPS board
member Scott Perkins. I recently toured his geospatial firm in my
congressional district, Wilson and Company. The way theyre able
to use this technology is impressive and could have some, I think,
application to financial oversight.
In your testimony, you highlighted several bills before Congress:
H.R. 932, H.R. 1242, and H.R 1520. You also recommended amending the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act so that the Federal Reserve
collects home mortgage transaction data at the parcel level. Why
is this change important? And, before you answer, Ms. Marlow,

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since you helped draft the 2007 National Academys report on these
issuesand we have reports going back to 1980do you believe
additional studies are needed? Or, is now the time for action?
I would appreciate your comments, Ms. Marlow.
Ms. MARLOW. Well, I appreciate you recognizing that 30 years of
reports have called for it. This is the one that was done in 2007
definitely time for action. We have done numerous reports and
every one of the reports have come to a lot of the same conclusions:
that our problems are not technological in nature, they are organizational and institutional, and we really ask for leadership at the
Federal level.
We certainly believe that this could help with a geospatial component in the database thats being proposed. We certainly believe
that would be an incredible enhancement and a visualization tool
that would help in all areas, and, we believe that the parcel level
is the right granularity for that geospatial data.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you very much for your
comments, and I thank all the panel members. I now recognize
Ranking Member Biggert for 5 minutes.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
How could Federal regulators use real-time monitoring and predictive analysis and coordinate information to prevent the financial
collapse in the Federal financial programs? You know, you talked
about other stuff. Ill start with Mr. Hahn.
Mr. HAHN. Thank you. In terms of real-time data and the presentation of that data, I think whats most critical is understanding
the levels of flexibility that youre going to need going forward as
things evolve as the data changes, having the level of flexibility to
present that data in different ways, collect the data in ways that
in the future youre going to be able to report against that data.
With the CARS, the Crowe Activity Review System that we have
developed and where we focused on assisting our clients with this
evolving environment.
We have repurposed what we did for anti-money laundering to
deal with issues such as mortgage fraud investigations, especially
where there have been quick turnarounds in terms of banks being
acquired in this environment, and then we have also been focused
on assisting with deposit fraud. And then we have begun the process of internally prototyping a TARP monitoring solution that our
clients would use as well.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you. Then, Professor Zelner, how were you
able to transform a method for analyzing complex weapons and industrial systems to a method for improving the financial systems
and monitoring for systemic risk?
Mr. ZELNER. Well, I guess I would make two points in response
to your question. The first is that the whole purpose of these systems that were developed to analyze infrastructure facilities is to
take many dissimilar parts, many dissimilar system components, if
you will, assets in the case of the financial system, and somehow
compare both the vulnerabilities that these different assets or system components have in the threats. So if we want to think about
the financial system, for example, threats to a given asset might
include natural disaster or accounting fraud.

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The vulnerabilities of a specific asset might include the assets
degree of leverage or its ability to be hedged, for example. So, the
whole idea, once again, is to adopt a standardized way of comparing the vulnerabilities and threats to very dissimilar assets. The
other point I would make in response to your question is that I
think that the Gradient, because it comes from an infrastructure
and system security background very nicely complements a lot of
the existing financial tools.
So financial tools, financial analysis tools, are very focused on
risks and probabilities, and thats critical. You obviously cant ignore that if you want to provide effective oversight. But, one thing
I think has largely been missing from the conversation is the discussion of potential impact, potential risk consequences; and, what
the Gradient does, because it was originally developed to help us
think about and analyze weapons systems and physical infrastructure facilities, is identify the areas of most high impact vulnerability. This is very different. The areas of most high impact vulnerability may differ from the areas that are most likely to be
breached are failing some way.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you. And with that, I would like to go to
Ms. Marlow. In one of my former lives, I was a real estate attorney,
and one of the things that was always worrisome to people was disclosure and privacy. You know, knowing if other people knew what
the cost of their mortgage was and what payments they were making, and it appears here that what were looking at is the disclosure
in all this land data that everybody would have access to what
their neighbors paid. A lot of it is all public record, but its not that
easy to find right now. But if its on the Web site, theres also the
question then that Mr. Schwartz addressed a little bit, and that
was the security, you know, and the problems with theft or identity
theft from people having access to so many things that are private
to people. But then I noticed in one of your pages that you have
that, you know, you could identify where there were high-cost loans
that those were actually where the foreclosures were. But do we
really need as much transparency as is sometimes offered?
Ms. MARLOW. Well, I appreciate the question and I certainly can
understand your concern. I would like to note that the data that
were talking about aggregating is data thats available in your
local assessors office today. And we would call for authoritative
data meaning data that is actually known to be correct. And so I
believe that with that kind of data, you not only have the ability
to have all of your personal data secureand certainly the security
should not be an issue at this particular levelbut I would say
that we need this kind of granularity of data so that we know
where its really happening, just so you know, like in disease control or anything else. If you know where its happening, then you
can begin to predict what its going to do in the future, and that
sort of thing, and you can monitor it.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you. And Mr. Lynch, sir,
you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I appreciate the testimony here this morning, and the
hope of obtaining predictive analysis certainly offers great value to
us. But, I must confess that I would be happy as a person on the

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oversight committee. I would be happy with a system that just tells
me where the money went. Another hat that I wear, I am the cochair of the task force on terrorist financing and non-proliferation.
I work a lot with FINCEN, the Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network, and one of the things that I have seen is that in the process of gatheringwhat we do is we establish financial intelligence
units and we gather data; you know, suspicious activity reports,
cash transaction reportswe get all these coming in. And Im not
so sure that our analysis is that good, because we get billions of
pieces of data, millions of these reports, and the ability to sift
through it all is very, very difficult.
But I do know that since we started gathering the data we have
pushed a lot of the terrorist money out of the legitimate financial
system, because they know were gathering the data and were
watching. So theres this sort of prophylactic function here thats
pushing the money out of the system. And we can see it happening
everywhere. I spent a lot of time in Jordan. They just adopted a
good system in North Africa as well. And, just as an example, we
did have a situation where Mr. Khan here from Hamas was actually grabbed with about $30 million in a couple of suitcases coming
over the border into Rafa into Southern Gaza, and thats because
he couldnt transfer the money for a legitimate financial system. So
we know that its causing pressure.
So I would be happy if we came up with a system that did that,
that at least put people on notice that the government is watching
and they were getting information in usable fashion. But Mr. Hahn
and Mr. Kimner, Mr. Kimner, you hit on a great phrase there
the power to know. And, as someone on the oversight committee
on behalf of the American people, I want the power to know. And
I have to tell you it has been a frustrating experience just trying
to track this money in TARP, and now Im seeing that were going
to blow out the responsibility of the Federal Government to regulate the entire financial services industry.
How do we get the power to know? How do we? You know, Congress is representing the people here, the taxpayer. How do we get
the power to know? How does that translation occur between your
systems and us?
Mr. KIMNER. Thank you for the opportunity to answer the question. I think a lot of what were talking about and my colleagues
may agree with this is that data is really at the heart of all of this,
so collecting data. And as you mentioned, you start to swim in it
so you can collect it and you have it. And then you get to the point
where you dont know what youre doing with it, you just have so
much to look at.
Some of what were able to provide at SAS is pattern recognition
software, so what that will do and what that helps you do is it
helps you look at patterns across data over time. It helps you recognize where you have outliers, for instance, where you have anomalies to particular patterns. Ill use an example, in the written testimony about fraud, so you have a credit card. You go and when
youre shopping its a set of stores and you have gas purchases.
But, all of a sudden, its one hit on your record card for transaction
for say some really expensive item. It may be a watch that you normally wouldnt buy. The predictive software that we have and the

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pattern recognition software that we have allows you to see that
and flag that transaction.
And what we do in real time in the credit card business is help
people. So you may get a phone call during that transaction in a
few minutes. The phone rings. The person at the cash register says
hey, we want to verify its you in this transaction. So that type of
recognition helps you sort through the information and gives you
knowledge about the patterns of information.
Mr. LYNCH. Okay. Let me just ask Mr. Hahn. Right now were
getting push-back. The system that I describe where we get these
cash transaction reports and the suspicious activity reports, we
have groups out there like the ACLU who are concerned about us
gleaning all this data. Theyre saying you dont need it all and
theyre probably right, but we need a lot of it. How do we address
the privacy concerns that folks have if were bringing all this massive data?
Mr. HAHN. So its difficult for me to talk specifically about policy,
but I can talk about what we have done with our clients, our financial institution clients, to address this, and we have done that in
two ways. One, we worked with our clients to implement a dynamic
on-boarding process, so different types of customers are going to be
asked different types of questions to identify whether or not they
present high-risk money laundering attributes. And that information is stored within the bank systems and all the security thats
associated with whats inside a bank is applied to that technology.
When suspicious activity is potentially found, we have also developed a dynamic process to go through the investigation so that it
is done efficiently. Its done in a way that were very focused on
what needs to be reviewed based on the transactions and the customers, and then producing a consistent set of output so that when
we are reporting into the government through the banks for suspicious activity, the information is consistent and then hopefully is
easier for the government to use as they do the work that they do.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you. Thank you, and the
gentleman from New York, Mr. Lee, you are recognized, sir, for 5
minutes.
Mr. LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I guess I would start, maybe I will direct this question to Mr.
Horne. It has been roughly a year since the TARP funds were initially released; and, obviously, I think we are all in agreement. We
want to ensure that we are protecting taxpayers interest as best
as possible and get meaningful data.
I will take this from a different approach. In terms of the usable
software data in terms of getting this implemented, in terms of a
timeframe, in your estimation, how quickly could this be developed
and have staff trained to have a useful system?
Mr. HORNE. Well, thank you for the question, Congressman. We
have actually been going through this extensively in terms of trying to figure out how to make this come together and work. And
we have been working with many different companies, frankly, because we are a data provider.
Teradata is a data warehousing and analysis companies. We
have been working with people from IBM. We have talked to peo-

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ple from SAS. Ms. Marlows organization does a different thing in
terms of spatial data; and, what we found is there are probably
phased processes that could be used to put this thing in place in
phases. To answer Congressman Lynchs question regarding, you
know, I want to get the answer where the money went. I think
thats the start, thats the foundation.
So doing the volumetric analysis up-front probably can be completed within 90 to 120 days to get from the point of initiation of
saying lets find out where the money went to get to that point. We
are probably there in that timeframe. Okay? And that means that
we have to combine all these sources of data and do preliminary
analytics in that information.
The next step is then being able to do what I call comparative
analytics, because part of the problem is we are trying not to force
the banks. Right now, the banks file 157 different types of reports.
Mr. LEE. You said how many?
Mr. HORNE. 157.
Mr. LEE. And would this require banks then to increase additional compliance, additional task forces?
Mr. HORNE. No, Im saying the opposite, because I think we have
to stop cutting down trees. And part of the problem is that a lot
of these reports say the same things. You have reports called the
FR Y9C report. You have reports going to the FIFEC organization, which has FDIC data, which has bank call report data. You
have all this information going in, and a lot of times its the same
thing. Show me your balance sheet. Show me your transaction.
Show me your mortgage information, lending information.
Mr. LEE. I know I dont have a lot of time, so in your mind to
get this thing fully implemented, give me a number. Is it 12
months, 24 months?
Mr. HORNE. I think its full implementation. We are talking
about a full 12-month cycle with ongoing whatever requirements go
beyond the initial implementation of everything. I am talking about
every kind of tracking.
Mr. LEE. And Im not sure whom, anyone, can answer this question. Has there been any projections in terms of what the cost
would be to develop this in terms, and then also the training aspect, which sometimes can be more expensive than the software
itself?
Mr. HORNE. Well, part of the recommendation would be not necessarily to totally train, but to staff, very expert analysts to go
along with this process; or, you have experience working with the
data. And there were many people out there who do across these
organizations as well as others to work with the government. From
a cost standpoint, basically, if you look at just the standard government waste, fraud, and abuse numbers across all agencies, it is
averaging somewhere in the area of 4 to 5 percent. Medicare, I
think, is like 12 percent. If it is just 1 percent here, it is $7 billion,
so.
Mr. LEE. I understand, but I am just curious.
Mr. HORNE. So the whole cost is under $100 million probably to
do soup to nuts in this thing, to do everything.
Mr. LEE. I am in the wrong business. I would love to get into
this.

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Mr. HORNE. Well, probably under $50 million to start it off to get
the first 12 months done, and then whatever it needs to maintain
over time. Your issue here is not the data. The data is not that expensive.
Mr. LEE. Let me ask you one last one. I know I am getting close
on time. Im not sure what. This is a database that will be set up,
a relational database? Im not sure what ultimately it would be,
but in doing so, once it is set up and established, whats the ability
to modify it is this is going to be very dynamic. We hope that this
would be an investment long-term. Would this database be easily
modified downstream to ensure that it is?
Mr. HORNE. The whole premise is extensibility; to be able to
change it on the fly, to be able to add new information, to be able
to add new capabilities, new functionality in real time. Literally,
also to have user ability to do so as well so a user can go in and
take data into a secure environment with using just Excel or some
other type of tool and be able to run a report.
Mr. LEE. Thank you.
Mr. HORNE. With security in mind, of course.
Mr. LEE. Thank you.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you. And next, the Chair
recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Paulsen.
Mr. PAULSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Quaadman, I wonder if I can ask, is sufficient oversight of
TARP being conducted right now by the Special Inspector General
for the Troubled Asset Relief Program or SIGTARP from your perspective? And how would this database itself really affect
SIGTARPs oversight?
Mr. QUAADMAN. Well, I think, you know, as I said in our testimony, we think that oversight and accountability is really at the
center here, because a big part of TARP or the intent of TARP is
to reinstall confidence in our financial system. So the more accountability and transparency than can be built in here the better,
and thats why we thought that the database thats presented in
Ms. Maloneys bill goes a long way to providing more accountability.
The technology is there to do it. The information is there to do
it, and we should use that so that taxpayers can have the ability
to see where their money is going. So we think this is actually a
supplement to what the Inspector General is doing.
Mr. PAULSEN. Supplement, okay. And I want to ask a question
of Mr. Kimner, if I could.
Given the size of various financial institutions of all sorts, and
the varying complexity of their operations, is it really possible to
come up with a single detail test that would be applicable to all
businesses or all institutions?
Mr. KIMNER. Thank you for the opportunity to answer that. I
dont know that a single test is the right answer. It may be that
there is a variety of tests given the complexity of the institutions
and the type of risks they take on. So it may not be a one-size-fitsall stress test, for example. There may be varying degrees of complexity within the test. I think part of what we are looking for is
consistency, both in the application of the test, the information that
gets collected and how its used. So that if two institutions of simi-

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lar risk profile and similar size are tested, that they have the same
type of test being applied as opposed to having very different tests
being applied to them.
Mr. PAULSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back my time.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. I thank the gentleman and I next
recognize for 5 minutes the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Maloney.
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, and ranking
member, for holding what I think is a very critical meeting that
can help business, help the financial industry, restore confidence in
our financial institutions, and move the regulation and oversight
into the 21st Century. I first would like to welcome Thomas
Quaadman at the Chamber of Commerce and comment on his work
in a prior job to provide affordable and available healthcare to the
9/11 heroes and heroines. I wanted to compliment your work, but
I do have limited time, so I want to jump on several areas and ask
if you could get back to me in writing.
Mr. Horne, your statement that banks have to file 157 different
reports, that is staggering. What a waste of paperwork. If we had
one centralized system, they wouldnt have to do this. I would like
you to get to the committee all of the 157 different filings. I know
about 20, but I didnt know there was 157. That is absolutely staggering.
Mr. HORNE. But there are subfilings within; in other words, 25
different things.
Mrs. MALONEY. Get us the list.
Mr. HORNE. But you have paper coming out the wazoo.
Mrs. MALONEY. Get us the list; and I think we need to provide
relief to financial institutions too that are overburdened with unnecessary filings. One of the problems that many of you raised in
your testimony was the privacy challenge; and, I dont want to get
into that now, because that is a difficult challenge. But if you have
any ideas of how to handle that, if you could get back to us, the
original bill is written with Mr. King and myself, has it only to regulators, Members of Congress and government, because of the proprietary information, and I thought that the privacy concerns
would absolutely kill the bill moving forward with opposition.
So thats not part of it, but its something we could do in the future if we could figure out how to handle it. But I would like to
say that when I first put the bill in it was in the midst of the financial crisis and money was being infused into the financial system
at alarming speeds, and there were allegations of misuse of funds
and corporate junkets, and so forth. It was undermining the
publics support for this program or for stabilizing our financial institutions, which I support and think was necessary.
Now were at a point where the funds are no longer available
from the TARP fund and the deadline has passed to apply for the
funds, which is very different from when I first introduced it. So
I would like to ask Mr. Krishna. Do you believe this is still necessary? And why is this still necessary?
Mr. KRISHNA. Thank you, Congresswoman Maloney.
Whenever government has spent hundreds of billions of dollars
of taxpayer funds, I think it is relevant to think about where those
funds have gone, even if there are no more funds going out. So I

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think that question is absolutely relevant, even today, to know
where the funds went, how they were applied. But, beyond that,
the bill that has been put forward allows us to create an asset that
keeps on giving.
So some of the comments made here were relevant, and not only
TARP oversight, but financial oversight going forward. And I think
that is where this bill will allow us to build a system of financial
oversight with analytics and the use of technology in the appropriate way that will stand the system in good stead for many years
coming. So I do think the TARP is very important, but I think the
technology can help us move forward very effectively as well.
Mrs. MALONEY. I think that is well stated, and very briefly, in
New York City, we had several scandals. We needed a Federal bailout at one point, and what we had was a system of separate
bookkeepings, separate accounts. No one knew what was going on.
I think AIG showed us that government regulators had no idea of
what is going on, so any tool that we can put in place that helps
us better analyze is going to be very helpful.
New York City created a central database on our budget, on our
contracts, on our whole economy, and we have been better managed since then, knowing when we are getting in trouble and able
to prevent itnot after the factbut before the fact. So I believe
that this is a very strong and important tool. I believe it should
have passed yesterday, and I am committed to working hard with
Mr. Moore and others to bring it into a reality. I would like to ask,
really, Mr. Horne, Mr. Krishna and others, anyone who would like
to comment on what elements you would begin in capturing in the
system. And if my time is expiring, I would like to invite all of the
panelists to put it into a memo to the committee, because I think
it is important to clarify exactly the elements that we need to capture; and, again, I want to thank the Chamber of Commerce, which
speaks for business in America, for being here today. Your presence
is extremely important, so do you have a quick response?
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. I thank the gentlelady. Her time
has expired, and we would ask that the witnesses comply if you
have comments to make with her request, because I think that
could be very valuable for the record. If you would supply your
written comments for the record, that would be appreciated. And
I thank the gentlelady for her question.
Mrs. MALONEY. I thank you, and I hope you will reply with elements you feel should be part of it. I think we should have some
elements in the core bill to begin with. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you. And the gentlelady
from Illinois has asked for an additional 2 minutes for one question.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. I
just wanted to go back to Mr. Schwartz on the land data issue, and
I just wanted to clarify that when I was talking about disclosure,
I really was talking about the importance of transparency. And I
think Ms. Maloneys bill is a really good bill and probably doesnt
have some of the problems, I think, that the land data billthe
other one thats in Congressbecause I think it is really important
from a consumer point of view that consumers data is protected.

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I worry about such a bill where everything is known about the
transactions, and is available. You can go to Zillow or if youre an
attorney you go out to the county seat, or anyone can really go out
and find out all that information, but it is harder than if it is posted on somebodys Web site for everyone to see. And I just wondered
with some of the problems that have occurred in that area with security and identity.
Mr. SCHWARTZ. It is an extremely important question and I
thank you for asking it. I think one other distinction I would like
to make with Representative Maloneys bill that Mr. Quaadman
also made was that the Privacy Act clearly applies to data that is
collected by the Federal Government. We have a law for when that
information is collectedbrought into the Federal Government
and you are searching it on individuals names. And there is also
another law, the Government Act, has a provision for privacy impact assessments to be created in that situation.
The problem with the land records issue is that information is
collected by counties right now. As you start to manipulate it and
use it in different ways, remember the Privacy Act was written in
1974. The guidance for it was written in 1975, and has not been
updated since then. They didnt have the idea that we were going
to have geo location systems, so its not clearly covered by the Privacy Act, and thats where this problem begins.
If it were a centralized database where we were looking up individuals by their name or by their Social Security number, we would
have a law in place that covered that. The problem is with geo location data, thats not necessarily covered.
CDT has been working on trying to update the Privacy Act so
something like this would be covered if it were centralized. There
were questions about how this database will be set up and whether
it will be distributed or whether we will actually reside in an agency, which raises other questions as well. But I think that what we
have seen and I think to back-up some of the issues that Ms.
Marlow was talking about
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. The gentlelady is recognized for
one additional minute.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you. Please continue.
Mr. SCHWARTZ. that Ms. Marlow raised is that we have seen
counties do protect privacy. Some counties have done a very good
job in protecting privacy and looking at the security issues. And
many of the companies have as well: Google Earth only goes down
to a certain point; you cant look into peoples backyards, for example. And so we have seen some companies do a very good job with
this kind of data. Some of the counties have done a very good job.
Others have not done a good job.
They have made it, so they put the land records data right next
to a court data, where we have seen some identity thieves go in
and try to match up the information and use it to take peoples information. So what we are trying to drive to with the suggestion
of including privacy impact assessments is that as this database is
built, we are looking towards the best practices of what we know
is out there.
Mrs. BIGGERT. Thank you so much and I appreciate that.

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Mr. Moore, I really thank you for having this hearing and I hope
that we can have one that has the Federal regulators. I would also
like to recommend that we invite HUD representatives and other
Federal agencies that granted funds to such groups as ACORN and
have the ACORN representatives to testify at a hearing.
Chairman MOORE OF KANSAS. Thank you to the ranking member, and again, thanks to all of our witnesses for their testimony
this morning. I believe todays hearing helps us understand what
technologies are available today, and what might be possible if the
Federal Government can take full advantage of these technologies
to provide better oversight of TARP and other governmental programs.
I look forward to working with the ranking member and other
members to make sure we are better utilizing these technologies to
strengthen financial oversight. I ask unanimous consent that the
written statements of the following organizations be made a part
of the record: Epicurus Institute; SecondMarket; and Interthinx.
Without objection, it is so ordered.
The Chair also notes that some members may have additional
questions for our witnesses, which they may wish to submit in
writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for
30 days for members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Again, I thank
all the witnesses, and this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:32 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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September 17, 2009

(31)

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