Sabrina Rubin Erdely Deposition Transcript 05-12-16

Exhibit 5
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
Charlottesville Division
Case No.
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3:15-cv-00023-GEC
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NICOLE P. ERAMO,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ROLLING STONE LLC,
SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY
and WENNER MEDIA ,
Defendants.
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Videotaped deposition of SABRINA RUBIN

ERDELY ,
was held at the Law Offices of DAVIS WRIGHT
TREMAINE , LLP ,
1251 Avenue of the Americas, New
York, New York, commencing May 12, 2016 ,
10:04 a.m. ,
on the above date, before Amanda McCredo, a Court

Reporter and Notary Public in the State of New York.
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A P P E A R A N C E S:
CLARE LOCKE, LLP
Attorneys for Plaintiff
902 Prince Street
Alexandria, Virginia 22314
BY: LIBBY LOCKE, ESQUIRE
ANDY PHILLIPS, ESQUIRE
TOM CLARE, ESQUIRE
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
(202)628-7404
by a Notary Public of the State of New
York, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY
MS. LOCKE:
Q Ms. Erdely, we met a few moments ago, and

I represent the plaintiff, Dean Nicole Eramo.
Today I'm going to be asking you questions as part
of your deposition.
DAVIS WRIGHT TREMAINE, LLP

Attorneys for Defendants
1251 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10020
BY: ELIZABETH McNAMARA, ESQUIRE
[email protected]
(212)603-6437
MANATT, PHELPS & PHILLIPS, LLP
Attorneys for Sabrina Rubin Erdely
1050 Connecticut Avenue, NW
Suite 600
Washington, D.C. 20036
BY: BEN CHEW, ESQUIRE
[email protected]
(202)585-6511
ALSO PRESENT:
Nicole Eramo
Natalie Krodel - general counsel of Wenner Media
Jenny Lazo
Jim Brady- videographer
Can you start by stating your name and
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address for the record?

A Sabrina Rubin Erdely.
.
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Q Have you ever been deposed before,

Ms. Erdely?
A Never.
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Q Okay. So, I want to explain some rules of

the road for today, to make today to go as easily
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as possible for you and for me.
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My job today is to ask you questions that
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you can hear and that you can understand; is that
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fair?
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A Yes.
Q Your job today is to answer those
questions as fully and as truthfully as you can;
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is that fair?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the
A Yes.
videotaped deposition of Sabrina Rubin Erdely,
taken by the plaintiffs, in the matter of Eramo
question, that you heard me and you understood the
versus Rolling Stone filed in the U.S. District
question; is that fair?
Court, Western District of Virginia.
Today's deposition is being held at Davis
Wright, 1251 Sixth Avenue, New York, New York.
My name is Jim Brady, I'm the videographer.
Q I'm going to assume, if you answer the
A Yes.
Q If at any point during the day today, if
you would like to take a break, that's fine with
me, just let me know. The only thing that I'll
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And today's court reporter is Amanda McCredo.
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ask is that, if there is a question that's
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We are both with U.S. Legal Support.
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pending, that you answer the question before we
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break; is that fair?
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May I have the attorneys please introduce
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themselves and for the court reporter to swear
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in the witness.
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A Yes.
Q Because the court reporter is taking
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MS. LOCKE: Libby Locke on behalf of
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everything down that you and I both say, I will
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plaintiff Dean Eramo, here with Andy Phillips
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extend you the courtesy to allow you to finish
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and Tom Clare, all from the law firm of Clare
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your answer, and if you could extend me the
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Locke, LLP.
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courtesy of allowing me to finish my question so
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we don't talk over each other; is that fair?
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MS. McNAMARA: Elizabeth McNamara, on
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behalf of the defendants. And I'm here with
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Ben Chew, who also represents the defendant,
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Q One other thing, if you have a memory or
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Sabrina Rubin Erdely. As well as Natalie
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if something I say jogs your memory at any point
Krodel and Jenny Lazo from Wenner Media.
A Of course.
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in the day and you want to change your testimony
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S A B R I N A R U B I N E R D E L Y, the witness
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or go back and modify or add something, just let
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herein, after having been first duly sworn
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me know, and I'd be happy to give you that
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opportunity.
Okay?
A Okay.
Q Ms. Erdely, you're a contributing editor
at Rolling Stone; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How long have you been a contributing
editor at Rolling Stone?
A I started writing for Rolling Stone in
2008, but I believe -- but they gave me the title
of contributing editor in 2010.
Q What was your title before 2010 with
Rolling Stone?
A I had no title. I was a freelancer.
Q And before you began writing for Rolling
Stone in 2008, were you a journalist?
A Yes.
Q And tell me what other positions you held
which -- with whatever other media entities.
A For many years, I was a staff member at
Philadelphia Magazine. I held many various
positions there, ending with senior writer.
From there, I became a freelancer, and I
had contracts with various national magazines.
But I was always -- after I left Philadelphia
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Q You can answer the question.

A Can you rephrase the question?
Q Is ensuring that you're following high

ethical standards in your capacity as an
experienced journalist in writing articles for
Rolling Stone one of your job responsibilities?
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MS. McNAMARA: Same objection. Lack of

foundation.
A A journalist's job is to report out a
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story as completely as they can. And I consider
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that part of the job responsibility in writing for
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Rolling Stone or any publication.
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Q Do you think you have high ethical

standards in your capacity as an experienced
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journalist?
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A I do.
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Q Do you consider that one of your job

responsibilities, to bring those high ethical
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standards to your work?
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MS. McNAMARA: Same objection. Lack of
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foundation.
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A I consider it an aspect of the job, yes.
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Q I'm going to hand you what's been marked

as Plaintiff's Exhibit 29.
(Independent Contractor
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Magazine, I was always an independent contractor.
Agreement Bates stamped RS001099
Q When did you begin your work with

Philadelphia Magazine?
through 1106 was referenced as
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A Not long after my graduation in May of
Plaintiff's Exhibit 29.)
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Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 29 is your independent
1994.
contractor agreement with Rolling Stone. The
Q So, it's fair to say that you've been a

journalist since May of 1994?
numbers down in the bottom right-hand corner are
called Bates numbers. This begins with "RS."
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A Yes.
Q Do you consider yourself an experienced

journalist?
A Yes.
Do you see that?

A Yes.
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Q I represent that means that Rolling Stone
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has produced this document in this case to you.
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If the Bates begins with "Eramo," that
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Q Is ensuring the factual accuracy of an

article that you write for Rolling Stone one of
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means that Dean Eramo produced the document.
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your job responsibilities, Ms. Erdely?
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"UVa" means that UVa produced the document, just
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A Yes. I always report out the facts as
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so you understand.
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well as I can. And I'm grateful that there is a
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fact-checking department to help me in that.
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1106. I direct your attention to where it says
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Q Is ensuring that Rolling Stone -- strike

that.
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"Contractor authorized signature."
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If you can turn to Bates number ending in
Is that your signature, Ms. Erdely?
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Is ensuring that you're following high
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A Yes, it is.
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ethical standards for journalism part of your job
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Q And did you sign this on 4/9/14?
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responsibility as a contributing editor at Rolling
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A Yes, I did.
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Stone?
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MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Lack of

foundation.
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Q Turn back to Bates 1100. In particular, I

would like you to review Section 3,
If you could read that section to
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A (Perusing document.)
You wanted me to read just Section 3?

Q
Yes.
Are you done?
Yes.
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MR. CHEW: Objection to the extent it
pmports to call for a legal conclusion.

Q
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MR. CHEW Objection.
AQ
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Q Ifyou could direct your attention to

Section 10, '
and read the first two
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sentences in the first section.

A (Pemsing document.)
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Actually, let me snike that. No need to
finish with that.
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I direct your attention to
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Section 11.
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If you could turn your attention to the
very next page, Bates 1101, the section that says,
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I'm sorry, that's the third to last
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AA
(Pemsing docmnent.)
Okay.
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h.
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to Section 9,
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1104. And I would like to direct your attention
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sentence. And then it goes on,
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Do youtmderstand that Rolling Stone-
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MR. CHEW: Again, object to the extent it
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MS. McNAMARA: Objection to the
mischaracterization of the docmnent.
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MR. CHEW And objection to the extent
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calls for a legal conclusion.
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that it pmports to call for a legal conclusion
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witness not to disclose any conummications
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benveen yourself and any of your counsel.
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from a nonlav1yer. And I would also caution the
I hand you what's been marked as
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was referenced as Plaintiff's
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Exhibit 89 .)
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If you could tum your attention to Bates
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Plaintiffs Exhibit 89.

(Pitch for "A Rape on Campus"
MS. McNAMARA: You're not asking for an

answer to that question?
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MS. LOCKE: I think she already answered
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it.
MS. McNAMARA: I don't think she did, but
we can move on, that's fine. There was no
answer. We objected and there was no answer.
MS. LOCKE: You can look at the
transcript. There was.
Q Exhibit 89 is what I understand to be your
pitch for "A Rape on Campus"; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q When was this written?
A Some months before I began working on the
article. I can't remember specifically.
Q Do you have a season and a year?
A Yes. It would have been in the early -it would have been early in 2014.
Q And you wrote this?
A Yes.
Q Is it a fair summary of your idea for what
would ultimately become "A Rape on Campus"?
A Well, no. It's a summary of the
discussions that I had had with my editors about
what the original concept would be for the
reporting that I would begin to pursue.
The article that ultimately ensued was
university that had been in the media for
violations of sexual assault issue -- for
issues --
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MS. McNAMARA: Objection.

Mischaracterizing her testimony.
A That was one of the things that was
originally discussed. However, the -- as my -- as
my reporting evolved, I decided to steer away from
campuses that had been in the media as being
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pointed to as being examples of having horrendous
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sexual assault climates, and I decided to steer
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towards college campuses that seemed more typical
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of a college campus environment.
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Q Do you think that UVa has a particularly

horrendous or egregious problem with sexual
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assault?
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A No. Actually, my reporting bore out that
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the experts that I spoke to told me that it was
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actually a fairly typical campus.
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Q Directing your attention to the pitched

document, Plaintiff's Exhibit 89, the first
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paragraph, there's a sentence that begins,
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"Awareness programs."
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Do you see that?

A Yes.
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somewhat different from the original concept,
which is not unusual for what happens between a
haven't gained much traction in the vast sexual
pitch and the ultimate article.
grey area on college campuses, where macho frat
culture and sex positive third-wave feminists find

themselves on a collision course against the
Q How was the article that ultimately
Q It says, "Awareness programs about consent
ensued -- and by that I mean "A Rape on Campus" --
how was it different than the original pitched
backdrop of an anything-goes party atmosphere and
document in terms of the concept of the, of the --
where administrations have been criticized for
what you had in mind for the pitch?
turning a blind eye."
A Well, this article was the way in which we
Is it fair to say you were going to focus
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discussed it at first, was, it was supposed to
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on, in "A Rape on Campus," how a university
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be -- we had discussed it as being situated at a
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administration had turned a blind eye to rape?
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college that had already been in the media as
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being a fairly egregious example of sexual assault
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Mischaracterization of the document and her
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and mishandling sexual assault.
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testimony.
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Q Just so I understand your answer, that was

the concept for the article?
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A I had been reading much in the media that
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year about this very idea that administrations
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A The concept for the article was to look at
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were mishandling these kinds of reports, which is
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a school like Yale, which had been in the media
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what these Title IX investigations were all about.
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for having a very hostile campus with their -- the
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So, I was -- I was simply -- this came as
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student environment, and also had been charged
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a result of us talking about what was happening on
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with Title IX violations, and to examine -- to
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college campuses, and I was going to take a closer
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further examine what that might look like on a
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look at what that was.
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ground level.
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Q So, you were looking for a particularly

egregious -- I think is the word you used --
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Q And so, it's fair to say that you were
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looking to explore whether a university
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administration had been turning a blind eye to
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sexual assault on campus?

A No. I was looking to see what actually
happened when sexual assault reports were, were
made.
Q I'd like to direct your attention to the
last paragraph on the first page of Plaintiff's
Exhibit 89. You say, "I'd like to examine sexual
assaults on campuses. The various ways colleges
have resisted involvement, and (as was recently
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revealed at Occidental College) juke their stats
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to make sure campuses appear safer than they are;
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how then may now be scrambling to clamp down (or
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sidestep liability); and especially how that
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dynamic is translating into daily and social life
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and hookup culture."
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Is it fair to say that you were looking,
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in "A Rape on Campus," to explore -- or in your
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reporting for "A Rape on Campus," that you were
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looking to explore how a university was juking
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their stats to make their campuses appear safer?
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A I was merely reciting the things that I
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was open to exploring. These are all things -- as
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you can see, I mentioned there had been recent
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news at Occidental College. I was reading the
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news very carefully and seeing the things that
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were developing, and I was open to exploring

whether this was happening at other campuses, as
well.
Q Including UVa?
A If it was going -- if it was happening at
UVa, then I was going to report on it.
Q And -A Although, I should mention that, at this
point, UVa had not even entered my mind.
Q You go on to write, "As the story's main
thread, I'll focus on a sexual assault case on one
particularly fraught campus -- possibly at Yale,
though the field is wide -- following it as it
makes its way through university procedure to its
resolution, or lack thereof."
Is it fair to say you were looking to
explore, in your reporting, how a university
procedure possibly failed to address one
particular student's sexual assault?
A Well, that's not at all what I said. I
mean, there's a number of things that changed
between this sentence and the actual reporting of
the article. One is that, I didn't choose a
particularly fraught campus. In fact, I sought to
find the opposite. I sought a campus that was
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actually fairly typical.

And I was looking to -- you know, in
trying to tell a story that is relatable, whether
it's about a sensitive subject or any other
subject, it's always the most tidy and convenient
way to try to tell it through one main subject.
So, my hope was that I could find one main
case to tell the story through. I didn't know
whether I would find that or not. And, of course,
I was open to writing the story in different ways.
But I was interested in finding, if there was
going to be a case that I could find at a campus,
that would help to illustrate how a case is
resolved after it is reported.
(Reporting file Bates stamped
RS004072 through 4502 was
referenced as Plaintiff's
Exhibit 387.)
Q This is, I think, what you'll recognize
as, at least the vast majority, of your reporting
file. It's a 400 some-odd page document.
Do you recognize that as your reporting
file?
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A Yes.
MS. McNAMARA: Object to the degree it
mischaracterizes.
Q The reason I say that is, we're going to
look at exhibits later that were not sequentially
ordered and appear to be additional notes that are
like this from the November timeframe. I believe
that this ends in October.
And so, that's the only reason why I say
the vast majority of your reporting file because I
think there are probably other documents and I
don't want to give short shrift to those, because
there are other parts of that.
MS. McNAMARA: And that still
mischaracterizes. There was a vast majority of
reporting that predates this where she was
reporting on other campuses and gaining
intelligence and the like. So, that's what I
was talking about.
MS. LOCKE: That's a fair point.
Q I saw, in this document, Ms. Erdely, that
there were notes that were deleted from other
campuses.
Do you recall deleting notes from other
campuses, as part of this reporting file?
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A I had two separate documents. One was --
would include it when you logged your notes?
I did a good deal of reporting on other campuses
A I'm sorry, could you ask me that again?
where I was exploring setting the article.
Ultimately, I decided not to set the
Q Sure. Is it fair to say that, if
something was important to you and you were going
article on those campuses. So, when I handed in
to use it in your story, that you would log it in
my fact-checking file, it was already such a long
your notes?
file, that in the interest of helping the
fact-checker pare it down, I created a separate
document with what I thought were just the most --
A If something was going to be used in the

story, then it would be in the notes, yes.
Q And it's fair to say that you attempted to

include important information in here; I mean,
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the relevant interviews.
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that's the purpose of this document, is to put
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Q So, in paring it down, you deleted some

portions of those interviews from the other
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your notes down, correct?
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universities?
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A No, nothing was ever deleted. I have the
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A Right. I was making the notes that would

ultimately result in the article.
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original document, and it was always made
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Q And would you say this is a substantially
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available to Rolling Stone if they wanted it.
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complete file in the questions you asked and the
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answers that witnesses gave with respect to the
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Q The version that you gave the

fact-checker, Ms. Garber-Paul, for her
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relevant witnesses for your reporting on "A Rape
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fact-checking process, was the pared down version,
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on Campus"?
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though; is that correct?
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A I would say that -- I mean, you look at
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the shear number of pages, it's, it's pretty full.
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A I did give her the pared-down version. I
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don't recall if I also gave her the full version.
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It's not possible, nor did I strive to put down
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every single word that was ever said. There are
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Q So, you understood that this reporting

file was going to be used and relied on by
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places you can see where I bracketed off places
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Ms. Garber-Paul in her fact-checking procedures --
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where there was just back-and-forth discussion.
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in her fact-checking process?

A Yes.
Q And does this reporting file reflect, in
part, contemporaneous notes that you took with
various individuals at the University of Virginia?
A Yes.
Q And in taking those notes, you attempted
to be accurate in writing down your conversations
with these individuals?
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A Yes.
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Q And in -- we've had a lot of
12
back-and-forth talking about whether this is a
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transcript or not. I'm going to refer to them as
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your notes.
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When -- my understanding of your
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practices, when you take an interview, you're
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contemporaneously typing as you and the witness is
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speaking; is that correct?
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A That's correct. Except for in the cases
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where there are some -- there are some actual
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transcriptions of recordings that are in the
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notes.
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Q Is it fair to say that you would
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include -- if something was important to you, or
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something was important to your reporting, you
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There were things that were discussed that didn't

seem relevant to the article, but seemed to be
coming up in the course of litigation.
I was not making this record thinking
about litigation; I was making it thinking about
the things that were going to be in the article.
Q But it was important for you to be
comprehensive in your reporting file, that's why
it's a 400 some-odd page document, correct?
A Yes, of course.
Q So, we're going to keep this document in
front of you most of the day because we're going
to go in and out of this document a variety of
times, because I'll have e-mails and things that
will inform this document and vice versa.
And so, I think, for purposes of today,
we'll keep this document in front of you. And
then there will be other exhibits that I will show
you that you'll ultimately be able to set aside.
But this is the big one that we'll look at for
today.
I'd like to direct your attention to Bates
4098. This is interview notes with Mr. David
Lisak.
Do you see where I am?
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A Yes.
Q Who is Mr. Lisak?
A He is a researcher who's done
ground-breaking research with sexual offenders
and, in particular, serial offenders.
Q If you turn your attention to the very
next page, which is a continuation of your
interview with Mr. Lisak at 4099, he says, "I'm in
New Mexico," and then there's parenthesis. It
says, "I'm hoping to write an article that takes
an immersive look."
I take that to be your voice; is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q And you told Mr. Lisak that you're hoping
to write an article that takes an immersive look
at what is going on in college campuses with
respect to sexual assault; in much the same way
that I wrote last year about the problem of
military sexual assault.
Did you tell that to Mr. Lisak?
A I did. Now, the fact that I put this in
brackets, this is sort of a stylistic note. When
I put something in brackets, it means that I'm
summarizing -- this is not word for word,
larger college climate, that larger backdrop, is
feeding into that problem or maybe obscuring the
problem."
Did you communicate that to Mr. Lisak?
A Because it's not bracketed off in any way,
I don't know whether that was something that
was -- I couldn't guess whether that was something
that was said by me, if it was something that
emerged from a conversation we were having, if it
10
was something that he said. I'm actually not -- I
11
actually can't be clear from the notes.
12
13
Do you have any reason to dispute that you
communicated that concept to him?

MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Other than what
14
15
she just testified to?
16
A I wouldn't want to guess.
17
Okay. If you could turn your attention to
18
4115, it's an interview with Emily Renda. This is
19
the beginning of the interview with Ms. Renda that
20
occurred -- I see a date of 7/8. Is that
21
representative of the date where you had a
22
conversation with Ms. Renda?
23
24
25
A Yes.
And if you could turn your attention to
the next page, 4116, about middle of the way, a
[Page 26]
[Page 28]
necessarily, what I said, but I'm summarizing the
little more than middle of the way down, there are
substance of our conversation.
brackets, and it says, "Let me tell you about what
I have in mind. Ideally, my story would follow a
survivor's experience as she navigates the

aftermath of their sexual assault. But the story
3
4
Q Thank you. That's helpful.

You continue on, in summarizing your
conversation -- summarizing what you said to
Mr. Lisak that you were teasing out the issues of
would also paint a large picture of what it's like
how and why, and how the issue of culture and
to be on campus now, what the environment is like,
climate help to feed into this culture of assault
where not only is rape so prevalent, but there is
and of inaction.
pervasive culture of harassment/rape culture."
10
Did you communicate that to Mr. Lisak?
10
And Ms. Renda, I take it, says, "Yes, so
11
A Not necessarily in those words, but that
11
important." Is that her response to what you have
12
was the substance. David Lisak has also done --
12
said?
13
he's consulted with the military about their
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14
sexual assault problems, so I thought that it
14
15
would be helpful for us to discuss the idea when I
15
Q Okay. And then you go on to say, "So, to

get into the cultural issues that are sort of in
16
was trying to convey to him about the kinds of
16
the air and feeds into the problem of rape, an
17
issues that I wanted about in college; about the
17
institutional indifference."
18
larger climate and the system and how everything
18
19
works together.
19
A It is.
Did you communicate that concept to

Ms. Renda, "institutional indifference"?
20
I thought that it would be helpful if I
20
A If it says so, then I did.
21
were to reference the military because he's been
21
22
active both in the realm of college campuses and
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Q I -A I want to say, by the way, institutional
23
the military.
23
indifference was exactly the thing that was being
24
discussed with me and my editors about, this was
25
exactly the topic that was being discussed in the
24
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Q And you say that, "I'm hoping to look at

colleges much the same way and to examine how the
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media at the time.
did I read that substantially correctly?

MS. McNAMARA: It reads, "Her memory of it
So, this was still the beginning of my
reporting, and I was now stepping onto the
university or campus to see whether these things
were borne out.
Q If you could direct your attention to

4118, just a couple of pages later. The first --
pointed out, she said, "And obviously maybe her
after the first paragraph, there's parenthesis.
memory of it isn't perfect," yes.
It says, "When during the year does boys' bid
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night happen?"
10
Is that a question that you asked
isn't perfect."
Q
A Well, yeah. I mean, except for, as Liz
Ms. Renda?
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A Yes.
You respond to her, "I tell her that
that's totally plausible."

Did you respond to Ms. Renda in that way?
11
12
Did I read that -- the substance
correctly?
A What ensued was -- I don't believe that I
13
used the words "totally plausible," but what
14
ensued was a conversation in which I reacted by
15
Q And she tells you, "For us, it's like

early February. We don't allow rush till the
15
telling her that I was -- I found it really
16
spring."
16
shocking, but that somebody had just sent me -- it
17
just so happen that somebody had just sent me an
18
article about gang rape that had happened at my
19
own alma mater twenty years earlier. And so, I
20
understood that these things actually did
21
Q Further down, you say, "Wow, so it's a big

night in terms of rapes?" And Ms. Renda goes on
21
sometimes happen.
22
to respond -- and in part she responds, "Our
22
23
president is very anti-Greek life. Not wanting to
23
a girl who was gang raped on the campus at the
24
shut it all down because alumni have strong
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University of Virginia as part of a, you know, of
25
investment and they get up in arms. And we've
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a hazing ritual, to be totally plausible?
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Did Ms. Renda communicate that information

to you?
A Yes.
[Page 30]
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seen more of a crackdown."
President Sullivan is anti-Greek life and that
there's been more of a crackdown at UVa?
A She did. And she had actually, also, I'll
add, she had just communicated to me -- my
response to her about it being a big night in
terms of rapes was me responding to her telling me
that that single night is one of the most
10
dangerous nights on campus.
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Q If you could turn the page to 4119.

Ms. Renda goes on in her -- in her chat with you,
11
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13
in her interview with you, and she says, towards
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the end of the -- her response to a question on
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the first -- on this page, the last paragraph in
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her response, she says, This may be a much darker
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17
side of this, but one girl I worked with closely
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alleged that she was gang-raped in the fall before
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rush and the men who perpetrated it were young
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guys who are not yet members of the fraternity,
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and she remembers one of them saying to another,
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debating backing out. And another saying to him,
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Come on man, don't you want to be a brother? And
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obviously it may be her memory isn't perfect.
24
25
There are a couple of typos in there, but
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[Page 31]
And you found the idea that there could be
[Page 32]
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Did Ms. Renda communicate to you that
12

Mischaracterizes the document.
MS. LOCKE: I'm not asking about the
document; I'm asking independently of the
document.
A I didn't know at this point.
Mischaracterizes the evidence.
A At this point, I didn't know any more than
what Emily had told me. I didn't know,
necessarily, that this was a hazing ritual or
anything of the like. She did say that it was
before rush. All I know is that I was just
reacting to the fact that she had just described a
gang rape, which is, unto itself, a shocking
concept.
Q Why would you use the word -- why would
you include in your notes, "I tell her that's
totally plausible," if you didn't think it was
totally plausible?
A I did think it was totally plausible.
Q I'd like to direct your attention to Bates
4145.
Is it sometimes your practice in your
notes to include -- to copy and paste e-mails that
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you receive into your reporting file?
actually -- I took a lot from this interview.
A Sometimes, yes.
That was just one of the things I took from this
Q And is this such an occurrence on Rolling
interview.
Stone Bates 4145, where you copied and pasted an
e-mail from Emily Renda to you into your notes?
Q But, my question was a little bit narrower

than that.
1
2
A Yes.
Q If you could just take a moment to look at
communicating to you that the university's goal
My question is: Ms. Renda was
the paragraph that Ms. Renda sent to you on
was to get good punitive action to stick against
July 14th, 2014.
the fraternity; isn't that correct?
10
A Just the e-mail?
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Q Just the e-mail, for now. Ms. Renda
11
answered.
A Yes.
12
communicated to you that she was concerned with
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your publishing part of Jackie's story "because we
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are trying to pursue ongoing action," doesn't she?
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MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Asked and
15
A She does.
15
Q At the bottom of the page, in bold, it

says, "The two staff people we have are attempting
16
Q If you could turn your attention to the
16
to bring them forward to talk with them

anonymously."
17
next page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 387. Bates 4146
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is a -- is what I take to be a telephone interview
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19
with Ms. Renda; is that correct?
19
communicating to you that two staff people at the
Fair to say that Ms. Renda was
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A Yes.
20
university are attempting to bring the anonymous
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Q On the same date, July 14th; is that
21
women forward to talk with them in order to
22
continue to work to get good punitive action to
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stick against the fraternity?
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25
correct?
A Yes. It was immediately after I got her
e-mail.
24
Q And you communicate to Ms. Renda -- let me
25
A Yes. She was verifying that there were

multiple allegations that were being made against
[Page 34]
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take that back.

Ms. Renda communicates to you, if you look
[Page 36]
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a fraternity on campus, and that the university
was aware of these allegations.
sort of midway down the page where you say, "You
made some good points --" or maybe this is
at, that they didn't know who these women are,
Ms. Renda speaking. "You made some good points.
that she had heard about it through friends; isn't
I should have been more clear. Right now, we know
that correct?
about these two other women through friends."
Is that Ms. Renda communicating to you?
A It is.
A That's correct.
Q Ms. Renda testified in front of Congress;
you're aware of that?
10
A Yes.
11
yet. Our goal is to get good punitive action to
11
Q Did you read her Congressional testimony
12
stick, so we're trying to work the back channels
12
before you published, or before you wrote, "A Rape
13
to get them to come forward."
13
on Campus"?
14
A I did.
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14
Q "We don't know who they are specifically,
Q But Ms. Renda did say, and we just looked
Fair to say that Ms. Renda was
15
communicating to you that the university was
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trying to get punitive action to stick?
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(Emily Renda's testimony before
18
communicating to me that, in order for the
18
Congress Bates stamped RS000109
19
university to move forward with some kind of
19
through 109 00007 was referenced
20
action against the fraternity, that they needed
20
21
not just one complaint -- which she had
21
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 361 is Ms. Renda's
22
acknowledged they already had -- but three
22
testimony. I'd like to direct your attention to
23
complaints against the -- against the fraternity.
23
the very bottom of the page where she begins, "One
24
of the student survivors I worked with, Jenna --"
25
and then there is an asterisk "-- was gang raped
17
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A What I took from this was that she was

So, yes, she was saying that they were

looking for good -- for punitive action, but I
[Page 35]
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by five fraternity men early in her freshman
"In some ways we don't want to get them punished
year."
because the alumni network is very strong."
3
4
Fair to say you read this before you

published "A Rape on Campus"; is that correct?
Q But in her interview, she did communicate
to you that, our associate dean, Dean Eramo, is
A Yes.
very passionate about getting Phi Psi punished;
Q Jackie told you that she was raped by
isn't that correct?
seven men; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
MR. CHEW: Objection.
Q Did that cause any red flags in your mind,
MS. McNAMARA: Asked and answered.
10
that there was a difference between five men that
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11
Ms. Renda communicated to Congress and the seven
11
Q You can answer.
12
that Jackie communicated to you?
12
A She did say that with the qualification.
MR. CHEW: And argumentative.
13
A No. I knew, prior to publication, that
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14
Jackie had originally -- when she originally
14
paragraph, Ms. Renda communicates to you, but she
15
talked about her assault, she talked about it as
15
is very interested in making sure we can do
16
being an oral assault by five different men, but
16
something punitive and make something stick.
17
she had told her -- that's something she told her
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18
roommate, Rachel Soltis.
18
19
But Rachel told me, as Jackie became more
19
Q And the next bolded part of that
Didn't she communicate that information to

you?
A She did.
20
comfortable with the details of her assault, she
20
21
came forward with the truth, which was that it
21
22
actually had been seven men and it was vaginal
22
(E-mail from
23
assault.
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Sabrina Rubin Erdely dated June
24
11, 2014 Bates stamped RS016980
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Q You can set that aside. I'm going to

direct your attention back to the interview with

[Page 38]
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Ms. Renda and direct your attention to Bates 4147.

At the very top of that page, you ask,
[Page 40]
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"This frat have a bad reputation."

Is that your question to Ms. Renda?
A I imagine it probably said, does this frat
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5
have a bad reputation. But yes.
Q And Ms. Renda communicated to you, "No,

they don't have a particularly bad reputation,"
8
9
didn't she?
10
A Yes.
10
Q Ms. Renda also, further down, bolded here

on the page --
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MS. McNAMARA: And I just object to the
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14
degree that you are just reading a portion of
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Ms. Renda's answer.
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17
Q If you look down, there's a bolded

paragraph, or a portion of a paragraph, at the end
18
of your interview with Ms. Renda. Ms. Renda
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19
communicates to you, "Our associate dean -- " and
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20
you put in brackets, "Eramo."
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"-- is very passionate about getting them
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punished."
She communicated that information to you,
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didn't she?
A She did. She also followed up by saying,
[Page 39]
to
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Exhibit 496.)
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 496 is an e-mail
exchange between you and
-- I'm going to
struggle with this last name.
Do you know how to pronounce her last
name?
A
Q Who is Ms.
A She was a former UVa student who was a
client of Wendy Murphy's.
Q And you communicate -- is this an
e-mail -- the bottom of this page is an e-mail
that you sent to Ms.
A Yes.
that you have an
Q And you tell Ms.
article in mind about how the issues of sexual
assault and harassment/rape culture play out in
everyday life.
MS. McNAMARA: Everyday campus life.
MS. LOCKE: Everyday campus life, thank
you, Liz.
Q You say, "I did a similar article last
year about rape in the military," and you offer
her a link to the Rolling Stone website and your
article, "The Rape of Petty Officer Blumer"; isn't
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that correct?
A Yes.
Q Is it fair to say that you wanted the
article, "A Rape on Campus," to be similar to "The
Rape of Petty Officer Blumer"?
A Not the article itself, but I felt that it
dealt with similar themes. And so, I sent it
along as an example of the kind of article that
could emerge from examining these kinds of issues.
10
It was another article that dealt with issues of
11
hostility, drinking, hookup culture, gender roles,
12
all the things that I list here; sexuality,
13
language around consent.
14
In the miliary, there were other things.
15
There were sort of systemic, kind of, issues, the
16
way the structure of the military was.
17
And I had entered into that article like I
18
enter into any of these kinds of articles, with
19
the -- with the supposition that no institution
20
wants to see its members sexually assaulted. And
21
so, then, how does it happen and what happens when
22
they report their -- when they report their sexual
23
assaults. And that was the same approach that I
24
was taking to this article.
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("The Rape of Petty Officer
Blumer" was referenced as
Q Is this the article that you wrote, "The
Rape of Petty Officer Blumer"?
A Yes.
Q And "The Rape of Petty Officer Blumer" was
about a look inside the military's culture of
10
sexual abuse, denial, and cover up; isn't that
10
11
correct?
11
12
A Yes.
12
13
Q You can set that aside.
13
14
I'm going to hand you also what's been
14
15
marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 491, 492, 493, and
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494.
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17
(Article entitled "Intimate
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Intimidation" by Sabrina Rubin
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Exhibit 491.)
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(Article entitled "The Crime
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Against Women That No One
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Understands" by Sabrina Rubin
23
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Erdely was referenced as
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[Page 43]
(Article entitled "Sex, Lies and

Phys Ed" by Sabrina Rubin Erdely
Exhibit 493.)
(Article entitled "The Catholic
Church's Secret Sex-Crime Files"
by Sabrina Rubin Erdely was
Exhibit 494.)
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 491 is an article,
"Intimate Intimidation."
Did you write this article, Ms. Erdely?
A I did.
Q Exhibit 492 is an article, "The Crime
Against Women That No One Understands."
A I did.
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 493 is an article,
"Sex, Lies, and Phys Ed."
A Yes.
Q And Plaintiff's Exhibit 494, "The Catholic
Church's Secret Sex-Crime Files."
Did you write this article?
A Yes.
Q You can set those aside.

I'm going to direct your attention back to
Plaintiff's Exhibit 387 and to Bates number 4152.
At the same time, I'm going to hand you what's
been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 208.
(E-mail from Jacqueline
to Sabrina Rubin Erdely dated
August 14, 2014 Bates stamped
Exhibit 208.)
Q At the bottom of Plaintiff's Exhibit 387,
Bates 4152, is what I believe the beginning of an
interview with Jackie
but there is no
date on it.
And so, what I would like to do is direct
your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 208, just to
give you a frame of reference so we can date this
interview.
A Uh-huh.
Q On Plaintiff's Exhibit 208, Bates 15090 at
the bottom, it says, "Hi Jackie, it was a pleasure
speaking with you just now." And that is dated
July 14, 2014 at 6:42 p m.
If you could just take a second to look at
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387, Bates 4152, and tell me if this is an

interview from July 14th.
A It appears that way. I would need to look
at my datebook to be absolutely sure.
Q Your what?
A I would need to look at my datebook from
that year to be absolutely sure. But it appears
that way.
Q I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Is this the first interview that you had
with Ms.
A It was.
Q And does that date sound approximately
correct, sometime in July?
A It does.
Q Okay. If you could turn your attention to
the next page, 4153, Ms.
tells you that
she's an undergrad. "I'm going into my third
year, my junior year, but I was raped my first
month there in September 2012."
A Yes.
Q Is that information that Ms.
communicated to you?
A Yes.
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Q And in the next paragraph, at the very

end, Ms.
tells you, "It wound up being a
hazing thing"; is that correct?
A Yes.
-Q And in the next paragraph, Ms.
and its bolded towards the end of the next
paragraph. Ms.
tells you, "And there
ended up being eight other boys in the room," and
that the boy who brought her there didn't
participate in her rape; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q That seven men raped her; is that correct?
A Yes.
why she believed
Q Did you ask Ms.
the eighth boy did not participate in her rape?
A No.
Q Did you find it odd that this eighth boy
would not participate in her rape?
A It didn't draw my attention.
Q You can turn to the next page, 4154. The
second paragraph, Ms.
tells you that there
was a glass coffee table in the middle of the
room, that she ended up crashing into it, and
shattered under our weight.
Did Ms.
communicate that
[Page 47]
A Yes.
Q She told you she was hurt so badly that

she got scars on her back and a huge bruise on her
face, correct?
A Yes.
7
8
9
whether she went

Q Did you ask Ms.
to the hospital to seek help for those injuries?
A In later interviews, she told me that she
10
did not seek medical help.
11
12
Q In later interviews, did you ever ask

Ms.
why she didn't seek medical help for
13
such extreme injuries?
14
15
16

Mischaracterization.
A She communicated to me that she had stayed
17
in her room until her wounds had healed. It led
18
me under the impression that she didn't need
19
medical help.
20
21
Q Middle of the page of 4154, Ms.

tells you that she started to scream, "and someone
22
pummeled into me and told me to shut up, and
23
that's when I tripped and fell against the coffee
24
table and it smashed under me and this other boy
25
was throwing his weight on top of me."
[Page 46]
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information to you?
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Did you ask Ms.

if anyone heard
her screams, or came into the room during this
three-hour rape?
A No. I was just listening to her
recitation of her -- of the events that she was
telling me.
Q Down at the bottom of Plaintiff's
Exhibit 387, Bates 4154, Ms.
tells you,
"One of them said, grab its mother-fucking leg.
As soon as they said that, I knew they were going
to rape me."
Isn't that correct, that Ms.
communicated that information to you?
A Yes.
Q You can turn the page to 4155. The top of
the page, Ms.
communicates to you that,
"The boy I went with, and one of his friends, I
gathered they'd done it before because I heard
them say something like, 'We all had to do it, so
you do too.'"
Did Ms.
communicate that
information to you?
A She did. That was her interpretation.
Q Did you find that implausible that, that
such a horrendous rape would be part of a
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fraternity ritual?
A It was her opinion, at this point, that
perhaps this was some kind of fraternity ritual.
I was, at this point, just listening to her
recitation of events. I wanted to know what had
happened to her.
Q Were you shocked by her story?
A Yes.
goes on to tell you, in that
Q Ms.
same paragraph, "I don't know if they were pledge
names because it wasn't pledge season."
Did she communicate that information to
you?
A Yes.
Q Did you wonder to yourself why a hazing
ritual might be happening at the time of year
where it wasn't pledge season?
A Well, ultimately, I never concluded that
it was a hazing ritual. I mean, is that what
you're asking?
Q I'm asking if you questioned --
rape, but I can't imagine it's all that common.
So the idea that three women were gang raped at
the same fraternity seems like too much of a
coincidence."
Did you communicate that information to
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8
9
Ms.
A I did.
Q But you resolved that problem that it
seemed too much like a coincidence, in your mind,
10
that this actually happened rather than
11
Ms.
12
correct?
13
was fabricating a story; isn't that

14
foundation.
15
A It never occurred to me that Jackie was
16
fabricating the story.
17
told you that this rape went

Q Ms.
on for three and a half hours; isn't that correct?
18
19
A She did.
20
Q Did you find that implausible?

A She later amended it to say that she
21
22
passed out during part of it, so she didn't
23
actually know how long it lasted.
24
25
No, I didn't think it was implausible.

Q Ms.
told you, and you reported in
[Page 50]
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Ms.
had told you it wasn't pledge season.

So, did you question or wonder why
Ms.
believed it was a hazing ritual if it
wasn't, if it wasn't that time of year?
A Well, she had just given me an
explanation, which -- a possible explanation, from
her point of view, which is that it might have
been dirty rushing, which is a practice where -or potential pledges try to rush when it's not
rush season.
Q And it was plausible to you that there
could be dirty rushing the first month of school
by nonfraternity members in a gang rape?
A Yes.
also told you that there were
Q Ms.
two other girls -- that she met two other girls
who had a similar experience at the same
fraternity; isn't that correct?
A Yes. And this goes to what Emily Renda
had already told me.
Q And you found that shocking, correct?
A Correct. But I was, I was ready, or for
it, because Emily Renda had already laid the
groundwork for that.
Q You write, "I don't know the stats on gang
[Page 51]
[Page 52]
1
the article, that the thing that seared in her
mind was the hour on the alarm clock, 3:30, or
something along those lines; is that correct?
4
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A I believe it was 12:52.

Q But that when she woke up, it was
approximately 3:30; isn't that correct?
A That's right.
whether any other
Q Did you ask Ms.
individuals entered into the room during her
three-and-a-half hour gang rape?
MS. McNAMARA: And let me -- let me just
12
establish that it was, in her mind, that it was
13
12:52 and then 3:30, isn't that two and a half
14
hours?
15
MS. LOCKE: Ms.
communicated, it
16
went on for almost three and a half hours, so I
17
think the record has already established --
18
19
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MS. McNAMARA: I think the witness just

verified from her notes that that -A It was a shorter time period than she
21
had -- than she had characterized.
22
23
Q Did that raise any red flags for you, that

she told you it was three and a half hours, but
24
you later confirmed it was shorter than that?
25
A It might have felt much longer, an
[Page 53]
[14] (Pages 50 to 53)

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Case 877-479-2484
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A No. I took it as being -- eventually,
experience like that.
when I was able to put more pieces together, I
whether any other

Q Did you ask Ms.
individuals entered the room during the time
took it that she -- her, her conclusion was that
period of her gang rape?
this was some kind of dirty rushing event and that
somebody must have been coordinating it. So she
A I don't recall. I'd have to, I'd have to
reread my notes.
gave somebody the title pledge master. But I
didn't know there was any bearing in real life for
how she was

Q Did you ask Ms.
restrained during that full two-and-a-half to
her to call somebody that.
three-and-a-half hour time period when she was
10
11
being gang raped?

A Yeah. She described it to me a number of
She told you that a member of her class
10
was the last person to rape her; isn't that
11
correct?
A Yes.
12
times that, in the beginning, she was being held
12
13
down in various ways. And by the end, they no
13
14
longer had to hold her down because she was, she
14
15
was too weak to fight back.
15
A Yes.
16
17
to explain the
Q Did you ask for Ms.
various ways that she was being held down during
16
17
that individual in her class who she recognized as
18
her gang rape?
18
the last person to rape her?
19
20
A Yes. And you can see them in here in my

notes.
19
And that she never went back to that
Did you ever ask Ms.
to identify
A I was under the impression that she didn't
20
know the names of anybody who was involved except

for the ring leader.
Q Can you direct me to where they are?

A Yes. She explains here on 4155, "My face
21
22
23
was pushed down into the side." On the next page,
23
24
she says -- I ask her at the bottom here about
24
25
being restrained. She says, "The one who had been
25
21
class; is that correct?
22
My question was a little bit different.
Not your impression of what she understood.

Did you ask her to identify for you the
name of the individual that attended class with
[Page 54]
[Page 56]
behind me, he was holding my arm because I was
her that she recognized as the last individual to
flailing my arms when I got in there and he
rape her?
slammed my arm against the floorboard. He was
A No.
also kneeling on my hair. And to the right or
left, someone had put a hand over my mouth and he
is the one who punched me in the face and my head
A It's hard for me to remember, now. I
flew to the side."
asked her for a lot of material. It's, it's quite
possible that I did, but I can't say for sure.
8
9
Q At the top of Plaintiff's Exhibit 387,

Bates 4156, Ms.
tells you -- well,
Did you ever ask for Ms.
report
card to confirm that she failed that class?
If you could turn to 4157, you ask
10
actually, starting on the prior page, where you
10
Ms.
11
just read, "My face was pushed down into the side
11
moment?" About a middle of the way down the page.
12
and all I could see was the clock and I could see
12
13
the boy and his friends, the pledge master, they
13
felt exhausted, I just felt so tired. I wanted to
14
were standing on my -- on my line of vision and
14
go home so badly. I didn't know where I was,
15
talking."
15
though, because this particular frat is not on the
16
main road. It's not on Rugby Road. So, I got to
16
Did you ever ask Ms.
--
"What did you feel like in that

And Ms.
communicated to you, "I
17
A I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where you are.
17
the front door and I wasn't on Rugby Road. I
18
Q The very bottom of 4155 to the top of
18
didn't know where I am. So I was -- I'm near this
19
big field, I don't know where I am, and I don't
20
have shoes on and it's cold."
19
4156.
20
A Oh, okay, yes.
21
Q Did you ever ask Ms.
22
who the
pledge master was?
Ms.
21
frat was not on Rugby Road, but on a big field,

correct?
23
A No.
23
24
Q Did you ever ask her how she was able to
24
A Correct.
25
25
identify that he was the pledge master?
[Page 55]
communicated to you that the
22
And that she didn't know where she was; is
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LEGAL SUPPORT
Case 877-479-2484
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meant Jackie, turned to her friends, that they
A Correct.
discouraged her from seeking help.
Q You ultimately went down to
that correct?
So, while I was, I was surprised and
Charlottesville and visited the Phi Psi house,
dismayed that people would treat another person in
correct?
need like that, I found it totally plausible.

Q You understood that Jackie did not meet
A Yes.
Q And it's on -- sits sort of perpendicular
Ms. Renda until she was introduced by Dean Eramo

to Ms. Renda; is that correct?
to what looks like a football or soccer field,
correct?
10
11
12
A Yes.
Q So you understood, before publishing "A
Q It's towards the center of campus; isn't
11
Rape on Campus," that Jackie didn't know Emily
12
Renda at the time of her rape; isn't that correct?
that correct?
13
A I don't, I don't recall.
13
14
Q It's not far from the rotunda; isn't that
14
15
A That's correct.
10
correct?
MS. McNAMARA: We've been going close to
15
an hour and a half. Is this a good time to

take a break?
16
A I don't recall the layout.
16
17
Q My question is: Did it seem implausible,
17
18
with a fraternity house in such a prominent
18
19
location, that Ms.
19
20
Phi Psi house and not know where she was on UVa's
20
21
campus?
21
could emerge from the
A Correct.
MS. LOCKE: Sure. We can take a break

now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Go off the record. The
time is 11:19.
(Recess taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going back on the
22
A Oh, no, not at all. I mean, when I, when
22
23
I visited the Phi Psi house, I saw that there was
23
record. The time is 11:33. Beginning DVD
24
an exit that actually came out onto a side street
24
Number 2.
25
that led behind the fraternity house and it was --
25
Q Ms. Erdely, during this interview,
[Page 58]
[Page 60]
it was actually quite confusing as to where we
Ms.
were at that point. I mean, my having never been
saw her immediately after her gang rape, that
there before, I had no sense of bearings.
their first names were Ryan, Kathryn, and Alex;
isn't that correct?
Q If you could turn the page to Rolling

Stone 4158. Ms.
at the bottom of the
page, communicates to you that her friend Ryan
wanted to take her to the hospital but that her
Q She told you that she and Ryan dated on

and off at the beginning of the school when she
other two friends discouraged that; isn't that
started at UVa; isn't that correct?
correct?
A Yes.
A Yes.
11
Q And she told you that she and Ryan stopped

dating because they decided they didn't want to
12
Q And if you turn the page to 4159,

Ms.
told you that, that one of her friends
12
have a relationship going into college; isn't that
13
said, "She's going to be the girl who cried rape
13
correct?
14
and will never be allowed into any frat party
14
15
again. And Ryan, when you want to rush, you'll be
15
16
associated with a girl who cried rape at a frat
16
first year at college, they didn't want to be
17
party."
17
in a relationship, as they were starting their
18
college path.
19
A Can you show me that in the notes?
10
11
A Yes.
told you that the three friends who
18
Ms.
19
A Yes.
10
communicated that to you?
MS. McNAMARA: Going into college?

MS. LOCKE: Being freshman at college,
20
21
Q Do you find that plausible, with a bruised

and bloodied and beaten friend, that her
21
Q 4160, Plaintiff's Exhibit 387, second

paragraph down, "Ryan and I had actually dated on
22
girlfriend would discourage her from going to the
22
and off at the beginning of the school year before
23
hospital?
23
we realized that we didn't want to start a
24
relationship because we both got into college."
20
24
25
A Well, I found it consistent with Emily

Renda's testimony that, when
by whom she
[Page 59]
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She communicated that to you, correct?
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LEGAL SUPPORT
Case 877-479-2484
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A Yes.
Q Do you find it odd that Ms.
alleged that she was raped the first month of
college, and that she and Ryan apparently dated on
and off for that first month and were able to, in
such a short amount of time, conclude that they
didn't want to be in a relationship?
A I'm sorry, and your question is?
Q I mean, do you find it odd that two people
10
could meet and start dating so quickly and
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11
ultimately decide in, you know, two weeks, three
11
12
weeks, before her rape, that they weren't going to
12
13
have a relationship?
13
14
15
16
A No. That actually sounds to me to be very

typical of a college relationship.
14
15
Q I'm going to direct your attention to
16
17
4165. In the middle of the page -- well, before
17
18
we look at the page, at some point during the
18
19
interview, Ms.
19
20
interview with Dean Eramo; isn't that correct?
told you that she set up an
20
21
A At some point she told me that, yes.
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22
Q And Ms.
22
communicated to you -- and
23
I can direct your attention to 4165 -- that "I
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24
love her, I think she's fantastic," referring to
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25
the Dean of Sexual Assault; isn't that correct?
25
[Page 62]
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A That's correct. And that's reflected in

the article, as well.
Q I turn your attention to the next page,
Plaintiff's Exhibit 4166 -- I mean, I'm sorry,
Bates 4166.
You ask, in the middle of the page, the
fact that the other girl was assaulted and heard
what she thinks she heard, you think this is an
annual ritual.
You asked that question to Ms.
correct?
A Yes.
responds, "It confuses me
Q And Ms.
because she was assaulted at a different time of
the year. She was assaulted in January."
Did that also confuse you, Ms. Erdely,
that -- that a gang rape like this, that seemed to
be a ritual, a fraternity ritual, would happen at
different times of the year?
A Well, at this point, it didn't seem to me
that it was necessarily a ritual. I was simply
asking her questions. It seemed to me that she
thought it was some kind of ritual, so I was
asking her questions to try to clarify why she
would have thought that it was a ritual.
[Page 63]
Q Did it raise a red flag in your mind that

the allegation that the other woman was raped in
January, when Jackie's assault was in September?
A No. It just helped me -- I mean,
eventually I came to the conclusion that this was
not a ritual, and this was one of the things that
helped to establish that.
Q How did you come to the conclusion that
this wasn't a ritual?
A Well, we never mentioned -- we never said
in the article that it was a ritual.
Q I didn't ask what you said in the article.
I asked you how you came to the conclusion that it
wasn't a ritual.
A I didn't find any evidence to show that it
was a ritual.
also
Q In the next page, 4167, Ms.
tells you about a third woman who was the sister
of a friend who was raped at the same fraternity;
isn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you ask, "What fraternity is this?"
Do you see that?
A Uh-huh.
Q Is that a yes?
[Page 64]
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A Yes, I'm sorry.

responds, "Uh, I'm not
Q And Ms.
sure that I should tell you."
Did she communicate that to you?
A Yes.
was
Q Did it concern you that Ms.
worried about identifying the fraternity where she
alleges she was raped?
A No, it's not unusual that somebody would
be shy about telling a very sensitive piece of
information.
Q She ultimately tells you that it was the
same fraternity that Liz Securo was raped at,
correct?
A Yes.
Q And you respond to her, "Holy shit, every
hair on my arm is standing up. Seems like more
than a coincidence."
Did you say those words?
A That was actually posed as a question to
her. I mean, it was posed as a question to her,
does it seem like more of a coincidence -- like
more than a coincidence.
Q Was it a question in your mind that it was
more than a coincidence?
[Page 65]
[17] (Pages 62 to 65)

LEGAL SUPPORT
Case 877-479-2484
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A It was a question in my mind.

Q On the same page in brackets, you say, "We
talk about why I think it's important to name the
frat."
You thought it was important to name the
fraternity in the story; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q On the -A Can I just add something to that? The
reason why I felt it was important to name the
fraternity was because, if, in fact, there were
gang rape allegations happening at a particular
fraternity, I felt it was important to warn people
about that particular fraternity. And to omit
their name would be to leave out the very reason
for the article to exist.
Q Well, why name the fraternity rather than
the individual perpetrators? Wouldn't it be more
important to warn individuals about individual
perpetrators than an actual organization and
institution?
MR. CHEW: Objection to the form of the
question. Argumentative.
Q You can answer it.
A The fraternity was the site of all three
A What my reporting found was that, the
University of Virginia was aware of three
different gang rape allegations that they were
taking as credible allegations. And if, in fact,
they thought that they were credible allegations,
which they did, what were their responsibilities
under Title IX to the rest of the campus? That
was a question that I sought to answer by talking
10
11
to experts.
And I concluded that, given the, given the
12
demands of Title IX, they had a responsibility to
13
warn the campus. And no warning was ever issued.
14
Q You understand, though, and did, at the
15
time, before publication, that the source for the
16
allegations of those three gang rape all came from
17
Jackie; isn't that correct?
18
A That is not correct.
19
Q Tell me where the source -- who you spoke
20
with, personally, that told you that they had been
21
gang raped at Phi Psi.
22
A I was under the understanding that there
23
were three different women. That Jackie was one
24
of them. That there were two others, one of whom
25
who had submitted an anonymous complaint.
[Page 66]
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allegations, and that was something that became

clear over the course of time, that the university
was looking into it. Ultimately, the university
initiated an investigation of that fraternity.
As far as I'm aware, there was no
investigation of the individuals, it was about the
fraternity. And I also established that with the
national fraternity, that they were under
investigation.
So, I think that naming the fraternity was
germane to this.
Q And you said you think it's important to
provide a warning to the university, presumably
because that -- you think it would be a safety -it's a safety concern; is that right?
A That's ultimately what this article was
about.
Q Well, don't you ultimately think that the
University of Virginia actually had it right in
this case by not issuing a warning when there are
three unsubstantiated allegations of gang rape
that all sourced from one individual?
Mischaracterization of the evidence.
[Page 67]
[Page 68]
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Q With Jackie -A With Jackie's help. And that there was a

third person, as well.
Q But you only learned of those allegations
from Jackie; isn't that correct?
A That is correct. And that was -- and I
trusted her. She, at that point, had become a
very credible source who I completely believed.
9
10
11
12
13
Q But you never spoke with

A That's correct.
Q You never spoke with
isn't that
correct?
14
A That's correct.
15
Q You never spoke with
16
isn't that
correct?
A That is correct. But I did ask Jackie to
17
turn over communications with all of these people.
18
If you look through my notes, which I know you
19
did, you'll see I was very, very persistent about
20
trying to get in touch with all of these women.
21
22
Q But you never did?

MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Let the witness
23
finish her answer before you interrupt. She
24
wasn't finished.
25
MS. LOCKE: I didn't know that.
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A I repeatedly hound Jackie for whether she
Q And that she filed a police report; isn't

that correct?
had gotten in touch with these women, whether they
were available to speak with me, and for her to
forward any communications she had with them.
Ultimately, she forwarded me communications she
had with two of them. I did everything I could to
get in touch with these women and to substantiate
them.
Q And she communicated to you that her

roommate was a nurse, and she took the glass out
of her face; isn't that correct?
9
10
11
12
13
Q But you never actually got in touch with

these women, did you?
10
A Despite all of my efforts, I was not able

to.
11
12
Q I direct your attention to the bottom of
13
A Yes.
Q And that it was a very nasty cut; isn't
that correct?
A Yes.
A Yes.
Q In fact, this information is bolded in
your reporting file; is that right?
A Yes.
14
4167 over to 4168. Jackie goes on to tell you the
14
15
story of what I'm going to refer to as the bottle
15
16
incident.
16
A It means that something stood out to me,
17
something that maybe I would go back and use in
Isn't that correct?
17
Q What does it mean when you bold something

in your reporting file?
18
A Yes.
18
the article.
19
Q And did you understand that Jackie -- but
19

later in this file, 4363.
20
that Jackie had been -- Jackie communicated to you
20
21
that she had been yelled at and a bottle thrown at
21
22
her face for speaking out about her rape at Phi
22
your dinner that you had with Ms.
23
Psi?
23
night of September 11th. And if you want to flip
24
back in the pages to orient yourself, feel free to
25
do that.
24
25
A I don't know that I knew that it was about

her specifically speaking out about Phi Psi. I
[Page 70]
1
think that she thought that it was from her -- her
affiliation with One Less, which is a peer
education group that is antirape.
Q Which she was a part of as a result of her

rape; isn't that correct?
5
6
A Yes. Although, it should be -- I should
also clarify that not everybody in One Less is a
rape survivor. There are people who are
interested in facilitating a less hostile campus.
10
11
12
Q But Jackie was a part of One Less because

of her rape; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
14
Q And she was introduced to Emily Renda

through Dean Eramo, and Emily Renda got Jackie
15
involved in One Less; isn't that correct?
13
16
A Yes.
18
Q And your understanding is that the bottle

incident resulted from Jackie's participation in
19
One Less; is that correct?
17
20
A Yes. Because she was very outspoken about
21
it, as she says here on page 4168.
22
23
communicated to you that she

Q Ms.
was hit with a bottle right below her eye; is that
24
correct?
25
A Yes.
[Page 71]
And I'll represent that this is the end of

on the
[Page 72]
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But you remember having dinner with

Ms.
on the night of September 11th?
A Yes.
gave
Q And you had asked, and Ms.
you, the names of individuals for you to contact
for your reporting; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And one of those names was Eliza; is that
correct?
A Yes.
gave you Eliza's e-mail
Q And Ms.
address; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q And she was the -- Jackie's go-to person
when the beer bottle was thrown at Ms.
isn't that correct?
A That's what she told me, yes.
Q What steps did you take before publication
to reach out to Eliza?
A I don't recall reaching out to Eliza.
Instead, to substantiate the beer bottle incident,
I got in touch with the police department to get a
copy of the report.
[Page 73]
[19] (Pages 70 to 73)

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Case 877-479-2484
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(E-mail from Sabrina Rubin
Erdely dated December 11, 2014
Bates stamped RS020497 was
Exhibit 522.)
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Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 522 appears to be an

e-mail to Eliza on December 11th, 2014.
Do you see that?
6
7
8
A Yes.
Q Did you send this e-mail to Eliza?

A I did.
Q Was that the first e-mail, first attempt,
to speak to Eliza?
10
11
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14
A Yes.
14
15

Turn back, now, to where we were, 4169.
15
16
16
17
In the middle of the page, you ask Ms.
17
18
"What did Dean Eramo say something about doing
18
19
something about this fraternity?"
19
20
Did you ask that question?
20
21
A I'm sorry, I think I'm on the wrong page.
21
22
Q 4169.
A Okay, yes.
22
Q Is that a yes?
A Yes.
24
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25
23
25
MS. LOCKE: 4300.

Q You're welcome to flip back to 4297 just
to orient yourself with the file. This is your
interview with Laura Dunn on August 14th.
Did you, in fact, interview Ms. Dunn on
August 14th?
A Yes.
Q You -- in your interview with Ms. Dunn,
and it's at the top of 4300, you tell Ms. Dunn
about Jackie's alleged gang rape, that she was
raped at a fraternity by seven men, it was
orchestrated by two men who didn't take part, but
who told the seven others what to do.
A Yes.
Q Did you communicate that information to
Ms. Dunn?
A I did.
Q Let me step back.
Who is Ms. Dunn?
A She is a -- she has an organization called
Serve Justice that helps -- she's a -- she's an
advocate for sexual assault survivors and helps to
educate the public about Title IX.
Q And you ultimately quoted Ms. Dunn in "A
[Page 74]
1
Q And Ms.
tells you that there's a
[Page 76]
1
Rape on Campus"; isn't that correct?
plan to get two more sources to come forward in
order to take away the Phi Psi charter; isn't that
correct?
Q So, here in your interview, you told

Ms. Dunn that the victim told the dean about it,
being the gang rape, in the spring, but wasn't
A Yes. I was, I was struck by the
A Yes, she's a very respected expert.
strangeness of this plan. The idea that they
sure that she wanted to pursue anything and
would need two or three allegations in order to
elected not to submit any type of an official
take any kind of action against the fraternity.
report. And while she took her time making up her
mind over the year and a half, she and the dean
Q And you understood, at this time, that two
10
UVa deans were working on an investigation to help
10
were in frequent contact. Okay, let's stop there.
11
remove the Phi Psi charter; isn't that correct?
11
"Knowing what the dean knows, what is her
12
A I didn't understand -- no, I didn't take
12
responsibility to the campus?"
13
that as understanding that there were two deans
13
14
working on it. I understood that the dean -- that
14
15
Dean Eramo was working on it, and that she had
15
16
consulted with another dean. I didn't know that
16
17
he was actually working on it.
17
Did you ask Ms. Dunn that question?

A Yes.
Q And communicated that information that we
just went through to Ms. Dunn, correct?
A Yes.
18
Q But that Dean Eramo was working on it and
18
19
that she had consulted with another dean at UVa on
19
Q Is it fair to say you told Ms. Dunn

that -- or communicated to Ms. Dunn that,
20
this plan; isn't that correct?
20
Ms.
A Yes.
21
occurred, or at least suggested to Ms. Dunn that
22
Q If you could direct your attention to
22
Dean Eramo knew where the assault occurred?
23
Bates 433 -- I'm sorry, 4300, on Plaintiff's
23
24
Exhibit 387.
24
Mischaracterization of the notes.
25
A I communicated to Laura Dunn that her
21
25
MS. McNAMARA: I'm sorry, what page?
[Page 75]
told Dean Eramo where the assault
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allegation was that she was gang raped at a
discovered, after, that Dean Eramo herself had had
fraternity. I also knew, at the time, because I
a meeting with Jackie and her friend Alex
had asked Jackie for, and she had furnished me
Pinkleton confirming that she had been in touch
with e-mail communications between her and Dean
with people having to do with Phi Psi in order to
Eramo, that Dean Eramo was aware that her
further investigate it, I certainly knew.
allegation is that she was assaulted by multiple
men. And Jackie had also told me, in her
Dean Eramo and UVa knew that Phi Psi was the
description of how she told Dean Eramo, was that
fraternity where the allegations were being made.
they took -- I don't want to misquote, but that
10
they took her into a room.
10
This was all confirmation that, that, that
Q My question is a little bit different.

The meeting between Dean Eramo, Alex
11
From all of that -- she also told me that
11
Pinkleton, and Jackie was in the spring of 2014,
12
she told Dean Eramo everything. So, from that, I
12
correct?
13
was working with the understanding that Dean Eramo
13
14
knew that it happened at a fraternity.
14
15
16
MS. McNAMARA: At what point in time are
17
18
you asking?
19
20
Were you working with the assumption that
Dean Eramo knew that it happened at Phi Psi?
15
16
A No. That was in September when I came to

campus.
Q Oh, September 2014. So, the fall of 2014.
What steps did you take to confirm whether
17
Jackie told Dean Eramo that her attack was at Phi
18
Psi when she first reported it to the university?
MS. LOCKE: Well, let me ask it this way.
19
What steps did you take to learn whether
20
interview Dean Eramo. And I'm sure you can see in
A Well, I made multiple attempts to
21
Dean Eramo knew that Jackie was alleging that her
21
my notes the number of times that I insisted to
22
gang rape occurred at Phi Psi?
22
their PR department that I wanted to speak with

her. I reached out to Dean Eramo directly, at
23
A Well, ultimately -- well, first of all, my
23
24
very -- one of my initial communications with
24
first, and was told that I could interview her.
25
Emily Renda, she was the one who told me that it
25
And that interview was very abruptly canceled,
[Page 78]
[Page 80]
happened at Phi Psi, and she was telling me that
despite my fact, and over my objections, that she
as an employee of the university who worked very
was the most knowledgable person on campus about
closely with Dean Eramo.
all of these things.
Q So let's --
So, from the outset, I was under the
4
5
impression that Dean Eramo knew it was at Phi Psi.
A Do you mind if I finish? I was also told
Right. But your first interview with
by the PR department that Dean Eramo, or anybody
Ms. Renda, as we saw, was in July of 2014, just a
on campus, was not going to be willing to answer
few months before the article was published.
any questions having to do with any conversations

that anybody had with students under FERPA.
What steps did you take to understand
10
whether Dean Eramo knew that it was at Phi Psi
10
11
when Jackie originally reported it to Dean Eramo?
11
you're suggesting in terms of how I could confirm
12
what it was that Jackie specifically told Dean
12
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Other than what
So, I don't know -- I don't know what
13
she's already testified to?
13
Eramo in certain meetings. What I had to go on
14
MS. LOCKE: Yes.
14
was what Jackie told me. And Jackie told me that
15
she told Dean Eramo everything.
15
A Well, I took many steps -- I mean, there
16
were many levels of confirmation that the
16
Q When did UVa learn that Phi Psi was the
17
university knew that Phi Psi was the fraternity we
17
place that Jackie alleged her gang rape happened?
18
were talking about. And let's not forget, Jackie
18
19
gave the information to Dean Eramo, who gave the
19
20
information to University of Virginia, who then
20
canceled, what other steps did you take to learn
21
took action against Phi Psi.
A You would have to ask UVa.

Q After your interview with Dean Eramo was
21
whether Dean Eramo knew that Phi Psi was the
22
So, when in the fall I discovered that
22
fraternity that Jackie alleged, at the time Jackie
23
there was an investigation against Phi Psi, and
23
alleged -- when she first alleged that she was
24
that was something I confirmed with President
24
assaulted, that she told Dean Eramo that
25
Sullivan, with the national organization, and I
25
information? Was Jackie your only source for
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that?
A I took a lot of steps to corroborate that
Jackie, that Jackie told everybody in her circle
that her rape had taken place at Phi Psi. I
interviewed many people in One Less who Dean
Eramo -- which is an organization that Dean Eramo
was very closely affiliated with.
She had told Emily Renda, Alex Pinkleton,
Sara Surface knew, Annie Forrest knew, all these
10
people knew that this had taken place at Phi Psi.
10
11
It defies logic that Dean Eramo wouldn't know that
11
12
it had taken place in Phi Psi. If she didn't
12
13
know, if would be because she didn't ask. And it
13
14
defies -- I mean, it's hard for me to believe, as
14
15
a responsible administrator, that she wouldn't
15
16
have asked.
16
17
Q But you had testified earlier that it
17
18
didn't surprise you that Jackie was, at first, in
18
19
her interview with you, unwilling to identify her
19
20
fraternity.
20
21
Why does that not apply to Dean Eramo?
21
22
A But she did identify the fraternity almost
22
23
24
25
immediately with me.
23
Q But what steps did you take that she did

the same thing with Dean Eramo, and what source do
24
25
Going back to Ms. Dunn, after you tell

Ms. Dunn the story of Jackie's alleged gang rape,
Ms. Dunn says -- if you turn the page to 4301,
Ms. Dunn responds to a couple of other questions
that you have and she says to you, "I don't think
it's true under both Title IX and Cleary, allow
people who are not victims to report. It's not
what the victim -- when the victim tells them,
it's when the report is received. The fact that
they are already -- that they already had the
victim's report, they should have already been
taking actions. And for them to continue to delay
as if they needed other victims is just not true.
That school really could be sued."
A Yes.
Q Then you go on to say, "I've had the same
thought. I have to level with you here. This
dean, she's a huge comfort to survivors, they love
her. But not everything that's been said about
her has rubbed me the right way. Because, at the
end of the day, these cases aren't being dealt
with. It feels as though she is coddling these
survivors, making them feel better. But unclear
if she is encouraging them to report."
[Page 82]
1
you have, other than Jackie, to say that she did?
[Page 84]
1
Did you communicate that to Ms. Dunn?

A I did. This was the beginning of my
Other than what -- she's already testified
understanding of the policy of victim choice that
enumerable steps that she took. Are you asking
is operated on a lot of campuses. And I was
her if she took any additional steps?
trying to reconcile the idea that so many people
really loved and appreciated Dean Eramo, and yet
Q I'm asking if you have any other source,

other than Jackie, about that Dean Eramo knew, at
so few of these cases seemed to move forward.
the first meeting when Jackie reported her rape,
do you have any other source to corroborate that
10
11
Dean Eramo had that information at that time?

MS. McNAMARA: And, again, you're asking
Q And you go on, ultimately to quote

Ms. Dunn using that coddling language, don't you?
10
A I need to look at the article.
11

12
her other than what she's already testified to,
12
13
because she's testified at great length about
13
("A Rape on Campus" by Sabrina
14
this.
14
Rubin Erdely Bates stamped
15
A I think I've already said this, but there
15

16
were only -- as far as I'm aware, there were only,
16
17
I mean, there was Jackie at that meeting, there
17
18
was Dean Eramo at that meeting. And Jackie is a
18
19
source who I came to trust greatly. I completely
19
20
believed in her credibility. She told me that she
20
21
told Dean Eramo everything, and I believed her.
21
22
Q And was she the only one that provided you

that information?
22
23
Exhibit 1.)
Q I direct your attention to Bates 1076 in
the middle column -- I take that back.
MS. McNAMARA: I was going to say.
Q You use the coddling language in the, in
the article; isn't that correct, Ms. Erdely?
23
A Again, that was just my -- maybe that was
24
A Yes.
24
a poor choice of words, but that was my beginning
25
Q Thank you.
25
of understanding, you know, this gap between how,
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how good and secure Dean Eramo made the students
empower the victim by setting aside various
feel, and the fact that not many of them moved
choices, all of which are presented in a neutral
forward with their complaints.
and equal way so that the victim can decide for
herself or himself what they want to do.
4
5
6
7
Q Were you being sincere when you told

Ms. Dunn that you had to level with her?
And as I came to discover, it often has
A I'm always sincere.
the, the end result of the victim deciding to do
Q When you told her that not everything
nothing.
that's been said about Dean Eramo has rubbed you
Q Setting aside whether you intended to
the right way, were you being sincere when you
convey any intentionality in this statement, all
10
said that?
10
I'm asking is: Were you sincere when you
11
A It's precisely what I just articulated.
11
communicated to Ms. Dunn that it feels as though
12
What didn't rub me the right way is, I didn't
12
Dean Eramo is coddling the survivors making them
13
understand, if these kids saw her as being so
13
feel better?
14
wonderful and their best advocate, why more of
14
MR. CHEW: Objection. Asked and answered.
15
their cases hadn't moved forward. That was just
15
MS. McNAMARA: Yeah, and, honestly, I
16
an inconsistency that did rub me the wrong way.
16
don't know what you mean by "sincere" in this
17
Q Were you being sincere that you told her
17
context. I don't know what "sincere" means in
18
that it feels like Dean Eramo was coddling these
18
this. What does -- can you amplify what you
19
survivors?
19
mean by "sincere" in this context?
20
A Again, maybe that was a poor choice of
20
MS. LOCKE: Don't you know what "sincere"
21
words in the moment. But I did feel as though she
21
means? I mean, we're talking about whether --
22
was making them feel better, but it was unclear to
22
MS. McNAMARA: I don't, actually, in this
23
me whether she was encouraging them to move
23
context, what you mean when you're talking to
24
forward.
24
reporters.
25
Q Were you making it up?
25
Q My question was a little bit different.
[Page 86]
[Page 88]
Were you being sincere when you told
Ms. Dunn that it feels like Dean Eramo was
coddling these survivors?
source in questions, I don't know what

"sincere" means in that context.
A I was sincere in that I felt that she made
them feel -- well, let me ask you this: How are
you defining coddling?
7
8
Q Do you understand what the word coddling

means?
MS. McNAMARA: Excuse me, I'm speaking.

I don't know, when a reporter is asking a
MS. LOCKE: I don't view this as a

question.
Q Were you asking her a question? It says,
"It seems as though she is coddling these
A I do. And the way I am defining it here
survivors, making them better, but it's unclear if
10
is that I felt -- what I was talking about was the
10
she's encouraging them to report." It seems like
11
experience of these survivors that they -- they
11
a declarative statement, to me.
12
felt that they were made safe and secure, and they
12
So, I'm asking, did you believe that Dean
13
ultimately didn't feel the need to move forward.
13
Eramo was coddling these survivors, or did you not
Q And you were sincere in that belief when
14
believe that?
14
15
16
you communicated it to Ms. Dunn?

A I wasn't communicating any kind of
15
A I was communicating a possible opinion.
16
You know, this was a reporting process where I was
17
intentionality here. I wasn't saying -- I wasn't
17
following the reporting as it was coming together.
18
making any judgment about what Dean Eramo's
18
So, this was an opinion that is beginning
19
motivation was in terms of why she was making the
19
to take shape, and I was running it by an expert
20
survivors feel this way. I was simply saying that
20
to see what she thought of it. I had not come to
21
she made them feel better, but it was unclear to
21
any -- I had not come to any conclusive opinion.
22
me whether she was encouraging them to report.
22
This was a question that I was asking, that I was

bouncing off of her.
23
And again, this was the beginning of my
23
24
understanding of the whole concept of victim
24
Q Were you sincere in asking the question as
25
choice. And setting aside -- and trying to
25
to whether Dean Eramo was encouraging victims to
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report their rapes? Did you sincerely hold that
belief?
3
4
5
MR. CHEW: Objection. It's been asked and

answered several times.
3
4
MS. LOCKE: No, I asked it with respect to
"coddling." I didn't ask it with respect to
"reporting." I think my question still stands.
A Can you rephrase the question?
10
Q Were you sincere in asking Ms. Dunn, in

asking her whether it's -- whether Dean Eramo was
10
11
encouraging them to report, survivors to report
11
12
their rape?
12
13
14
15

Mischaracterizes.
13
14
It might be better if you ask the
15
16
question, did you believe. I find "sincere"
16
17
very odd in this context.
17
18
MS. LOCKE: Thanks Liz, but I'll take the
18
19
deposition the way I'm going to take it.
19
20
A As I was learning about the process of
20
21
reporting these, these sexual assaults, it was
21
22
unclear to me what the process was once a report
22
23
was made. And whether that process encouraged
23
24
people to make -- to continue down the path of
24
25
reporting or not. And that is what I was
25
[Page 90]
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articulating to this expert.

Q In "A Rape on Campus," you write, "Setting
aside for a moment the absurdity of a school
offering to handle the investigation and
adjudication of a felony sex crime, something
Title IX requires, but which no university on
Earth is equipped to do, the shear menu of
choices, paired with the reassurance that any
choice is the right one, often has the end result
of coddling the victim into doing nothing."
Did you write those words?
A Yes.
Q Do you stand by those words?
A Yes.
Q You said coddling in the context of your
conversation with Ms. Dunn was a poor choice of
words. Was it a poor choice of words when you
used them in "A Rape on Campus"?
A I think it was accurate.
Q I direct your attention to, a little bit
backwards in Plaintiff's Exhibit 387, to Bates
4238.
This is another instance where I believe
that this is an interview with Ms.
on or
around September 30th at 8:00 p.m., but for which
[Page 91]
I'd ask you to look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 208 to

confirm that that's correct.
A Okay, yes.
Q And during that interview two pages over
on 4240, Ms.
at the bottom of 4240, tells
you that she wore a red dress on the night of her
rape; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you asked her, on the following page,
4241, what she eventually did with the dress, if
she got rid of it, at the bottom of the page.
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q And she told you she didn't know what her
mother did with the dress, correct?
A Right. First she told me in great detail
what she did with the dress, that she shoved it in
the bottom of her closet. And then, when they
were moving out, she had her mother take it and
she told her, "I want you to burn it, I never want
to see it again."
So, I'm not sure what she did with it.
Q And then on the following page, 4242, you
ask her -- you confirm that the dress was red, and
you ask her about the blood and whether it was
[Page 92]
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very evident against the dress.

Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You also ask her, a little bit further
down, to speak with Ryan about the possibility of
speaking with you; is that correct?
A Yes. I'm just looking for where that is.
Q It's just below where it says, the bold,
where it says "It wasn't evident."
A Oh, yes.
Q It's the following next paragraph.
Do you see that paragraph?
A Yes.
Q And did you ever ask for Ryan's last name?
A I did. In my first interview with Jackie,
I asked for Ryan, Kathryn, and Alex's names and
contact information.
say to you?
Q What did Ms.
A She said that she would prefer to get in
touch with Ryan because he was the friendliest of
the three. She led me to believe that the other
two were not on friendly terms with her.
Q Did she provide you with any of their last
names?
A She did not.
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Q Did that raise a red flag, in your mind,

as to why Jackie would not provide you last names
2
3
of her three friends?
A No. She had made it clear that she was
2
4
not on very good terms with any of them,
particularly with Kathryn and Alex, who she
described as being -- as having a strained
relationship with.
10
Q Do you believe that Jackie's not being on

good terms with those two friends absolved you of
10
11
journalistic obligation to reach out to them for
11
12
comment?
12
13
13
14
foundation.
14
15
A No. I actually -- I actually was very
15
16
persistent in trying to get in touch with these
16
17
three friends. I thought that my entree to them
17
18
was going to be through Ryan, who she had
18
19
characterized to me as being the friendliest of
19
20
the three.
20
21
21
22
Q And you did ask Jackie a number of times,

over the course of your reporting, to get in touch
23
with Ryan for you; is that correct?
23
22
24
A Many, many times, yes.
24
25
Q And, ultimately, Jackie told you that Ryan
25
Pinkleton. I didn't find a Kathryn, although I

was misspelling her name at the time. I was
spelling it with a "C."
But I was working under the assumption
that she seemed pretty secure that she was going
to get Ryan to talk to me. And by the time I got
to campus and I had a better understanding of the
kind of resistance that she was getting to
speaking to me, it made -- it made sense, a
certain amount of sense, that Ryan would be so
resistant to not being in the article.
And if Ryan was so resistant, then, then
certainly the people who had an, what sounded
like, an active dislike for her, or she was on
negative terms with, would not be cooperative, as
well.
Q But it was Jackie who ultimately refused
to give you their last names; is that correct?
A She never outright refused. I would say
she continually sized-up me.
Q I direct your attention to 4244. In the
middle of the page, Ms.
communicates to
you, "People have asked me, 'Why didn't you just
have fun with it, especially if they are a bunch
of hot frat guys?' And I couldn't tell if she was
[Page 94]
[Page 96]
wasn't willing to speak with you; isn't that
kidding or if she was serious. She had a very
correct?
serious look on her face. And I was, like,
because that was something I didn't want."
A Yes. He -- she told me that he was --
that he was very unwilling, and that he actually
told her in the strongest possible terms.
where?" And she responds, "It was actually at a
get-together at my apartment and I just had a few
Q What steps did you take to verify that

Mr. Duffin actually wasn't willing to speak with
friends over, and some friends brought their
you, other than having Jackie tell you so?
friends. And one girl who was actually in One
Less, and she's never been assaulted or anything,
A Jackie, at that point, was a -- I took her
10
as a very credible source. And I took her at her
10
11
word that he did not want to speak.
11
12
I actually, later that -- no, not that
And you asked, "Who asked you that and
she just has a very limited understanding."

Jackie doesn't tell you here that Kathryn
12
Hendley, a.k.a. Cindy in the article, actually

said those words, does she?
13
night. The following night, I actually followed
13
14
up with her friend Alex Pinkleton to ask her if
14
15
she would provide me with that information, and
15
16
Alex said -- she deflected me and said, no, she
16
Q Where in your notes is it reflected that

Kathryn Hendley said those words as it's portrayed
17
would have to ask Jackie to see if that was okay.
17
in "A Rape on Campus"?
18
19
Q So, it's fair to say that Jackie was the

roadblock in you getting Ryan, Alex, and Kathryn's
18
19
where, but she -- she does tell me in a further --
20
last name?
20
in a later interview that -- we revisit the "Why
21
didn't you just have fun with it" quote, and then
21
A Well, I tried -- I had tried in other
A No, she does not.
A Further in. I couldn't tell you exactly
22
ways. I mean, earlier on, I had looked for their
22
she tells me that it was the -- I would have to
23
names through Jackie's Facebook page, looking
23
find it in the notes.
24
through her friends. I didn't find a Ryan.
24
25
The only Alex that I found was Alex
25
[Page 95]
Q Maybe we can do that on a break.

A Okay. But I remember her -- just to make
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13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
a mental note here, with a keyword, it was when

she talked about her former best friend, the one
from that night.
Q But Jackie first told you it was a girl
from One Less who didn't have an understanding;
isn't that correct?
MS. McNAMARA: Who didn't have an
understanding?
Q Whose never been assaulted and has a very
limited understanding, that's what Jackie
originally told you who said that quote; isn't
that correct?
A Yes.
Q And then later she tells you, somewhere in
your reporting file, we'll find it later, she
attributes it to Kathryn Hendley?
A Yes.
Q Did that create a red flag for you?
A I actually didn't notice any inconsistency
there.
Q On 4246, in the top third of the page, you
say, "Okay, getting back to your story, at what
point did you tell Dean Eramo about your rape?
Was this at the end of your second year [sic]?"
Do you see that?
Q And she explained that it was traumatic

because the mock trial issue was a scenario that
was very similar to an experience that Alex
Pinkleton had; is that right?
5
6
7
8
A Yes.
about the
Q And you asked Ms.
outcome of the mock trial; is that correct?
A Yes.
10
told you that the outcome

Q And Ms.
was inconclusive because it just showed both sides
11
of the story, and that both Ms.
12
Pinkleton were furious about the outcome; isn't
13
that correct?
14
A Yes.
16
Q I want to direct your attention to 4264 in

an interview that you had with Ms. Pinkleton. And
17
particularly, on 4265, the top of the page, you
18
ask Ms. Pinkleton about the same mock trial that
19
we were just speaking about with Ms.
20
correct?
15
21
A Yes.
23
Q And you say, "At the end of the mock

trial, what was the outcome?" And Ms. Pinkleton
24
says, "The rape -- the individual who committed
25
the rape, was guilty. So, they said that they
22
[Page 98]
1
A The end of second semester?
And then you ask her later, "Can you tell
3
4
Of second semester, thank you.
me what that was like, telling her?"

And then Ms.
responds, "It's very
[Page 100]
1
could have decided on a lot of different
punishments, but that it would probably be that
his degree would be taken away, or he would leave,
have a leave of absence at some point."
scary. I mean, Nicole, have you met her? She has
such a warm demeanor."
Did Ms.
8
9
communicate to you that
Dean Eramo has a warm demeanor?
10
A Yes.
11
Did Ms. Pinkleton communicate that to you?

A Yes.
Q This was different than what Ms.
communicated to you about the outcome of the mock
trial; isn't that correct?
10
In the article, however, you describe Dean
and Alex
A It is. It seemed to me of that somebody
11
wasn't remembering it correctly. And that's why I
12
Eramo's demeanor as no-nonsense; isn't that
12
asked a third person, Matt, who attended it as
13
correct?
13
well, about the same exact scenario, and he could

not remember, I believe, what the outcome was.
14
A That is exactly the way it was described
14
15
to me when Jackie reported her rape. I also think
15
16
that she -- I mean, she was described to me, by
16
that someone was -- that there were two different
17
many people, as being a warm person who is also
17
stories, that you asked a third person; is that
18
very professional. And that's something that I
18
correct?
19
watched, for example, when I watched the UVa video
19
20
before it went to publication, that she seems like
20
different memories of the same event. So I, I
21
a very professional, no-nonsense kind of person.
Q But it was enough of an issue for you,
A It's pretty typical that people have
21
checked with a third person thinking that perhaps
also tells you about
22
this would wind up in the article. At the end, it
23
the mock trial she attended with Alex Pinkleton;
23
didn't wind up in the article, so it was of no
24
isn't that right?
24
consequence.
22
25
On 4247, Ms.
A Yes.
25
[Page 99]
Q Did it raise a red flag for you that
[Page 101]
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Ms.
remembered a different outcome than Ms. Pinkleton?
had a different outcome -- that she
that Dean Eramo had asked Jackie, on multiple
occasions, to consider moving forward with some
A No, it didn't concern me.
kind of prosecution of her perpetrators; isn't
that correct?
4250. About a third of the way down the page, you
A Yes, that's correct. And, in fact, if we
said, "Going back to your story. When Dean Eramo
can look at the article for a second, I mention
laid out all the possibilities for you how you
that, even as late as the time that Jackie told --
might proceed, did you say right then and there
on page 1078, I mention that, even as late as the
that you didn't want to do it, or did you say
point where Jackie, in May 2014, told Dean Eramo
10
11
you'd think about it?"

And Ms.
communicated to you that
10
about the other two allegations and about her
11
own -- and about the bottle incident, I say, at
12
she was going to think about steps moving forward;
12
the bottom of the page here, that they had a
13
isn't that correct?
13
discussion about filing a complaint, but that she
14
A Yes.
14
didn't feel ready to file a complaint and that
15
Q She communicated to you that Dean Eramo
15
Eramo has always understood that she did not feel
16
e-mailed her once or twice that summer asking her
16
ready to file a complaint.
17
about that decision; isn't that correct?
17
18
19
A Yes.
18
Q I want to direct your attention to 4309.

This is what I believe is your third interview
Q And that the following fall, Dean Eramo
19
with Ms.
20
asked her again about that decision; isn't that
20
And it says, "8/11, left long detailed
21
correct?
21
message with all of the below. And 8/13, left
22
another message."
22
A Yes.
told you that she told --
23
24
that she wanted to focus on healing emotionally;
24
25
isn't that correct?
25
23
Q And Ms.
So, this is sometime in the mid-August

range; is that fair to say?
A Yes.
[Page 102]
[Page 104]
A Yes.
Q And she told you that Dean Eramo asked
her, Ms.
incident, if she wanted to press police charges;
isn't that correct?
6
7
8
9
again, after the bottle
article, by the way.

also asked you -- told you
that she and Dean Eramo revisited the idea of a
if she's
Do you see that?
A Yes. All of this is reflected in the

Q And Ms.
Q On 4310, you ask Ms.

heard back from the first year.
A Yes.
Q And you were pressing Jackie on these

other alleged rape victims because it was
important to you to verify what Jackie was telling
you; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
10
different trial in a different -- and moving
10
11
forward in some way against her assailants; isn't
11
Q On 4/3/12, you ask, bottom of the page,

you ask Ms.
if she saw the look on Dean
12
that correct?
12
Eramo's face when you told her there was someone
13
A Yes.
13
else, whether she seemed shocked. And in bold,
14
Q You understood that Ms.
14
Ms.
was saying
responds, in part, that "Dean Eramo
15
that she and Dean Eramo was revisiting the idea of
15
got pissed at the frat. She said two fraternities
16
a trial for her sexual assault; isn't that
16
lost their charter this year and that it wouldn't
17
correct?
17
bother her to add a third."
18
A Yes. I understood that, that Jackie and
18
Did Ms.
communicate that
19
Dean Eramo were in communication, and that that
19
20
was something that made Jackie feel very secure,
20
A Yes.
21
and that, and that -- and this was substantiated
21
22
in the e-mails that Jackie furnished to me and
22
Q On plain -A Can I add something, though? One of the
23
it's reflected in the article.
23
things that made an impression on me was that, as
24
pissed as Jackie said that Eramo was, that there
25
was ultimately no action that was taken by the
24
25
Q And it's fair to say that, as of the date

of this interview with Ms.
that you knew
[Page 103]
information to you?
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university against the fraternity. That there was
able to furnish me with a lot of different pieces
no -- and these were the things that raised the
of evidence to back up what she was saying. So,
questions that led me to the experts to ask them
this was part of the process of getting some of
about the tension between victim choice and Title
that information.
IX.
Q If you could turn to 4314, at the top of
Because while obviously there was some
the page, you ask if Ms.
tension here about getting upset at a fraternity,
correspondence with Dean Eramo. "The e-mails she
it raised the larger question of, well, what does
sent you checking in or confirming your meetings,
this mean for the larger questions of campus
could you send me those?"
10
safety?
10
11
Q Ms. Erdely, do you believe that Jackie was

actually gang raped, knowing what you know now?
11
12
13
14
15
16
A I have no way of knowing.

Q Do you have any belief, whatsoever, as to
whether she was or was not gang raped?
A I, I couldn't possibly speculate.
12
13
14
15
16
saved her e-mail
Did you ask Ms.
for her
correspondence with Dean Eramo?

A Yes, I did.
Q And Ms.
offered to send you all
that stuff now; is that correct?

A Yes.
Q And Ms.
ultimately did send you a
17
couple of documents regarding the -- regarding
18
for the
Q On 4313, you ask Ms.
police report to verify the bottle throwing
18
Dean Eramo and -- isn't that correct?
19
incident; is that correct?
19
17
20
A Yes.
20
A Correct.
21
as Plaintiff's Exhibit 208 and Plaintiff's
22
"Could you send

Q And you tell Ms.
it to me? Anything that's documented, you can
22
Exhibit 81.
23
send to me. I'd love to see. It's never because
23
24
I don't believe you, it's because part of my job
24
25
is double verifying everything that could be
25
21
[Page 106]
[Page 108]
double verified. It elevates the material to the
level of fact."
Exhibit 209.)

3
4
Did you communicate that to Ms.

A I did, that my job -- that I would like to
double verify everything that can be double
verified.
7
8
9
Q What do you mean that it elevates the

material to the level of fact?
A Meaning that, often, if you haven't -- if
Exhibit 81.)
10
something comes from a single source, you may have
10
MS. McNAMARA: Did you give us 208?
11
to qualify it by saying that it comes from a
11
MS. LOCKE: No, I'm sorry, it's
12
single source. If you have a double source, you
12
Plaintiff's Exhibit 209. I apologize.
13
feel secure that, you know, that, that -- I mean,
13
MS. McNAMARA: Oh, okay.
14
the level of fact is just a shorthand of saying
14
MS. LOCKE: I'm just correcting myself.
15
that, you know, you can simply present it.
15
MS. McNAMARA: Thank you.
16
I was not concerned about double verifying
16
17
everything because, first of all, not everything
17
18
could be double verified. But, also, because I
18
19
had total confidence in my source. And she proved
19
20
to be credible in so many different ways. And I
20
21
can go into great detail about that, if you wanted
21
22
me to, at some point.
22
23
But I did want to -- at the same time, I
MR. CHEW: Thank you.

Q And 208, I believe you have in front of
you.
A Yes.
Q 208 is not one that we need. It's 81 and
209.
Plaintiff's Exhibit 209 and Plaintiff's
23
Exhibit 81 are e-mails that Ms.
forwarded
24
did want to see -- and part of the reason why I
24
to you showing her alleged injuries and
25
developed such faith in her was because she was
25
correspondence that she had with Dean Eramo; is
[Page 107]
[Page 109]
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that correct?
women. And how -- and I think that she's
A Yes.
describing the mind field that each individual
You can set those aside. We'll come back
victim presents to a sexual assault administrator.
to those, so leave them close by, but, but I want
to direct your attention to 4315 in your file.
Q But, in her response, other than her

saying, "I think it's a very difficult situation
You tell Ms.
that you wondered if
for her," she doesn't reference Dean Eramo at all,
Dean Eramo's counseling the survivors, but also,
does she?
in a sense, that the comfort that Dean Eramo is
giving them, rape survivors, is also keeping them
10
quiet.
Did you communicate that information to
11
12
Ms.
MS. McNAMARA: Can you direct her to where
13
14
on this page this is appearing?

MS. LOCKE: It's the middle of the page,
15
16
about one-third of the way down.
17
"I've wondered if she's counseling the
A I think she wasn't really answering the

question. I think that she -- I think that she
10
used my question as a launching point for her to
11
kind of free-associate about what should be done
12
and, in a perfect world, what would happen.

She returned to the question -- I believe,
13
14
the fact that there's an indentation here,
15
indicates to me that I probably gave her some kind
16
of prompt. So, I may have asked her again about
17
Eramo to redirect her to talk -- to talk about
18
survivors, but also, in a sense, that comfort
18
Eramo. But I have no reason to believe that she's
19
she's giving them is keeping them quiet."
19
actually talking about Eramo in here.
20
21
Q The very next question you ask, you come

back to the mock trial and you confront
20
21

A Yes. I mean, I'm asking the question of
22
whether victim choice is -- which I address in the
22
Ms.
23
article -- whether victim's choice is ultimately
23
way Alex and Ms.
24
helpful to the victims or whether it's actually
24
trial; isn't that correct?
25
paralyzing to them.
25
[Page 110]
1
Q And if you could take a second to just
read Ms.
before I ask my next question.
4
5
response, that paragraph,
A Yes.
Q Ms.
doesn't communicate back to
you that she believes Dean Eramo is keeping
survivors quiet, does she?
8
9
10
11
A No. She's talking about something that I

talk about in the article, which is that she's in
a pretty -- she has a very difficult job.
Q Ms.
goes on to talk about the way
12
victims were dressing and the way -- the guilt
13
that victims feel; isn't that correct?
14
15
A Yes.
Q And Ms.
responds that many victims
16
don't want to ruin their attackers lives; isn't
17
that correct?
18
A Yes.
19
Q But she doesn't mention at all Dean Eramo
20
in her response, does she, other than, "I think
21
it's a very difficult situation for her"; is that
22
right?
23
A She's addressing all of the things -- all
24
of the many things that Dean Eramo has to wade
25
through when she's dealing with each individual
[Page 111]
about the inconsistencies between the

understood the mock
A Yes.
[Page 112]
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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
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21
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24
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4316.
You follow up with Ms.
by leaving
her a message on August 21st; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And then you left a message and sent her
an e-mail, again, on August 27th; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And then you left a message and sent her
an e-mail on August 31st. And in the e-mail you
ask her, "Is everything okay?"
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Erdely dated August 31, 2014
Bates stamped RESPJ00000018 was
Exhibit 180.)
Q I just ask you to confirm Plaintiff's
Exhibit 180 is the e-mail that you sent
Ms.
on August 31st.
A Yes, it is.
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Erdely to Emily Renda dated
September 2, 2014 Bates stamped
RENDA000871 through 872 was
Exhibit 130.)
Q Can you confirm that this is an e-mail
exchange between you and Emily Renda?
A Yes.
third of the e-mails down the page from
September 2nd at 11:32 a.m.
And you write, "Emily, I don't suppose you
heard from Jackie
recently? I haven't
been able to reach her in the last couple of
weeks -- I imagine she is just busy with
back-to-school stuff, but the silence on her end
is starting to bring out the worried Jewish mother
in me."
A Yes.
Q So, it's fair to say that Jackie, from
your interview in mid-August until at least this
point, the 2nd of September, Ms.
had not
been in touch with you; isn't that correct?

A Right. And that's not unusual. I mean,
8
9
10
11
e-mail exchange that Ms.
15
Eramo; is that correct?
16
19
week." And she goes on, on the second page -- the
20
third page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 370, to say,
21
"Thanks, too, for sharing what happened with me.
22
I could tell it was very difficult for you. I
23
understand and respect your wishes not to report
24
this matter further to the authorities or through
25
the Sexual Misconduct policy here on grounds, but
[Page 116]
1
2
4
retreat for a little while. I mean, it could be
very emotional for people to share these kinds of
things. And so, sometimes they leave the process
for a little while, while they're coming to terms
with it. Sometimes they come back; sometimes they
9
10
11
12
e-mails that I was making plans to come to UVa to
12
13
visit with Emily. I had made plans to see Alex.
13
14
I made an appointment to meet with Dean Eramo. I
14
15
was moving forward with UVa regardless of whether
15
16
I was going to -- of whether Jackie was going to
16
17
come back to the process or not. But I was hoping
17
18
that she was all right.
18
Q It's fair to say that, throughout your
19
20
20
reporting and dealing with Ms.
21
were several instances where she stopped
21
22
communicating with you; isn't that correct?
22
23
24
25
that there
A I think there were two periods in which

she stopped communicating with me, yes.
[Page 115]
A Yes.
Q And Dean Eramo, in this e-mail, writes,
"Thanks so much for meeting with me earlier this
19
had with Dean
18
17
it's -- it's actually quite common for people to
In either case, you can see from these
A Yes.
14
when I interview people about sensitive subjects,
11
correct?
Q I would like to direct your attention to
Bates 18283, on the second page. This is an
don't.
Q And this is an e-mail that Ms.

forwarded to you on September 15th, 2014; is that
13
12
10
Exhibit 370.)
[Page 114]
1
23
24
25
I do want you to continue to consider these

options."
You understood that Ms.
shared a
story of sexual assault with Dean Eramo, correct?
A Yes, a story in which there were multiple
men, as she says later in this -- in this e-mail.
Q And you understand, from this
communication, that Dean Eramo understood that
Ms.
did not want to report her rape to
authorities or through the Sexual Misconduct
Board; isn't that correct?
MR. CHEW: Object to the form of the
question.
Q You can answer.
A Can you repeat the question?
Q This e-mail -- in this e-mail, Dean Eramo
told Jackie that she understood that Jackie did
not want to report her rape to the authorities or
through the Sexual Misconduct Board; isn't that
correct? I'm not asking about the article, I'm
asking about this e-mail.
Ms. Erdely, I direct your attention to the
e-mail, Plaintiff's Exhibit 370.
A If you'll just bear with me. I just, I
don't want to misspeak. Not only did I -- not
[Page 117]
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only was I aware that Jackie was, at this point,
making the decision not to file a report, but I
actually quote from this e-mail in the article.
asked and answered, and the article speaks for
A No, but I -MS. McNAMARA: Objection. This has been
Q Okay. Thank you.
itself which makes very clear, just as the
A But, again, it was, it was because, it
witness has testified, that Dean Eramo laid out
was -- she understood it to be her choice. And
all the options, which included going to the
her choice, at this point, was to do nothing.
police, the Sexual Misconduct Board, the
informal process, and Jackie elected not to do
it.
She felt better having unburdened herself
8
9
10
11
to Dean Eramo, and she just wanted to leave it at

that.
Q But in this e-mail, Dean Eramo tells
that she wants Ms.
to consider
10
And then it proceeds on page 75 of the
11
article to quote from the very e-mail that you
12
Ms.
12
are referencing in which she indicates that she
13
these options, filing a police report or pursuing
13
e-mailed her with a follow-up note thanking
14
an action through the Sexual Misconduct Board;
14
Jackie for sharing, same quote. I could tell
15
isn't that correct?
15
that was very difficult for you, end quote.

And restating that, while she respected
16
A And I quote that in the article.
16
17
Q Actually, you don't.
17
Jackie's wish not to file a report, she'd be
18
A I quote in the article, if you decide
18
happy to assist, quote, if you decide that you
19
to -- I'd be -- I believe, I need to find it in
19
would like to hold these men accountable, end
20
the article. But I quote her saying, "I'd be
20
quote.
21
happy to assist you in the filing of the report or
21
22
complaint, if at some point you'd like to hold
22
23
these men accountable." So I certainly mention in
23
24
the article that Dean Eramo was willing to help
24
quote, from this particular e-mail, that Dean
25
her with these options.
25
Eramo encouraged Jackie to continue to consider
MS. LOCKE: I appreciate your testimony on

that, Liz, but my question was for the witness.
Q And my question is: You don't go on to
[Page 118]
1
Q But you don't put in the article, "I do
[Page 120]
1
these options; isn't that correct?
want you to continue to consider these options,"
that Dean Eramo is suggesting to Jackie -- that
Dean Eramo wants Jackie to consider pursuing these
three times.
options; isn't that correct?
Q You can answer.
6
7
8
9
10
A I believe that the quote that I used
accomplishes the same exact thing if I were to use
A I'm sorry, are you -- so, what are you
the quote that you're suggesting.
asking?
Q So you don't include, in the article, the
of the e-mail that I'm suggesting; isn't that

correct?
fact that Dean Eramo says that, "I do want you to
11
continue to consider these options"; isn't that
12
13
correct?
13
A Well, I think that I represent that Dean
14
15
Eramo laid out all of the options to be
15
16
considered.
16
Q But you don't quote from this e-mail that
Q But you agree you did not use the section
10
12
17
MS. McNAMARA: That has been answered
question. Argumentative.
11
14
MR. CHEW: Objection. Asked and answered.
17
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. This has been

asked and answered four times now.
Do you want her to answer it again?
Q I still haven't gotten the answer that you
didn't include those words in the article -MS. McNAMARA: You didn't get the answer
18
Dean Eramo encouraged Jackie to continue to
18
you want, Libby, it's not that you haven't
19
consider these options, did you?
19
gotten the question answered.
20
21
22
23
A I quoted that Dean Eramo would be happy to

assist her in filing a report.
Q I understand.
But you don't go on to quote Dean Eramo as
20
so you know that those words don't appear in the
22
article.
23
24
saying, "I do want you to continue to consider
24
25
these options," do you?
25
[Page 119]
A I believe that you read the article, and
21
Q That's correct. And you're agreeing with

that; isn't that correct?
A Yes.
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Q Thank you.
MS. McNAMARA: It's almost 1:00. Is this
a good time to take a break?
MS. LOCKE: Sure.
Q We can take a break, but I'm going to
violate a rule on asking a question and allowing
you to break because I would like to find out
where in your reporting file you asked anyone for
the three friends' last names.
If you could point me to a location in
your reporting file where you asked for Ryan,
Alex, or Kathryn's last name, if you could direct
me to that point, and I give you the time over the
break to look for that.
A Well, I can actually answer that right
now. I, I, I've looked through the notes. I can
tell you exactly when I asked these questions.
As I -- I think I might have mentioned
early on when we were talking about how I put
together my notes. Not every single thing that I
asked for and was answered is actually reflected
in the notes. I was putting together a record for
what was going to ultimately appear in the
article, not keeping in mind that any litigation
would ensue from it.
point, if she -- I told her that Jackie was
reluctant to share that information with me and I
asked her whether she would be willing to --
because I knew -- she had told me before that she
didn't know Ryan, but that she knew Kathryn and
Alex.
whether she'd be willing to share it with me. And
she said she was would have to ask Jackie for her
10
permission. That is not reflected -- a lot of the
11
notes that I took from our walk through the
12
fraternities is not stuff that I wrote down,
13
including things like the conversations with
14
Jackie's boyfriend when we walked around. They're
15
just not reflected in there. But that is when I
16
asked.
17
Q And the last question before lunch is if
18
you can identify, in your reporting file, whether
19
you did or did not, and if it's reflected anywhere
20
in your reporting file, ask for Jackie's report
21
card.
22
So, I do have a distinct memory of asking
Jackie, during our very first interview, when I
asked her, at the point -- towards the very end of
our interview, asking her for Ryan, Alex, and
Kathryn's names and contact information, and that
was when she deflected and said, Well, I'd be
happy to get in touch with Ryan.
8
9
10
So, that would appear in that -- I mean,

if I had typed it up, that's where it would
appear. It does not appear.
12
Q And then the other question -MS. McNAMARA: Are you done with your
13
answer?
14
A Oh, there's actually more.
15
Q Okay.
A Also, when I asked Alex for the names --
11
16
17
so, this is now fast-forwarding to my visit to
18
campus in September. The night after Jackie told
19
me that Ryan was -- had declined to be
20
interviewed, in the strongest terms, and I had
21
taken from that, that none of them were going to
22
be available, I, nonetheless, asked Alex, while
23
she -- while we were walking around campus at
24
night, we were -- we were walking around the, sort
25
of, fraternity areas, and I asked her, at that
[Page 123]
A I'm having trouble recalling that. I, I
23
asked her for so many things. And it was, it was
24
such a long time ago. I don't remember.
25
[Page 122]
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And so, I asked her, at that point,
Q But I'm asking for you to identify whether
[Page 124]
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it's in your reporting file.

A Oh. In all of our going through it -- I
mean, I haven't seen these notes in a very long
time. So, off the top of my head, it doesn't -I, I can't remember where it would appear.
Q And I appreciate that. That's why I'm
asking for you guys to take the time over lunch to
see if you can locate it?
MS. McNAMARA: We'll take that under
advisement. We don't have an obligation to
engage in a search mission during the break.
If you want to use the time on the
deposition to try to have her look through it,
that's fine. But I'm not going -- I'll take it
under advisement.
I'm not going to represent that we will
undertake that endeavor. To sit there for the
lunch hour and go through over 400 pages of
notes in order to ascertain that -- and I think
the witness needs to eat, needs to have a
little time off, and I'm not going to endeavor
that that's our responsibility.
Q As you sit here today, are you able to
identify any place in your reporting file where
you ask for Jackie's report card?
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MS. McNAMARA: She's already asked --
whether she reported her rape to police during
she's already answered that question.
this time?
A As I said, I really don't recall.
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MS. LOCKE: Okay. We can go off the

record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.
The time is 12:58.
(Recess taken.)
8
9
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going back on the
A I don't recall, specifically. I know
that, in the article, I make reference to the fact
that, around this time when she was discussing the
bottle incident with Dean Eramo, that she told
Dean Eramo that she did not feel ready to file a
police report. So, I know that she and I did
discuss that, at the time.
10
record. The time is 1:41. This is the
10
11
beginning of DVD Number 3.
11
recollection where, in my notes, I asked her that.
Q Ms. Erdely, I'd like to direct your
12
I feel confident that they're in there somewhere.
12
13
attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 81, which is an
14
e-mail between Dean Eramo and Ms.
15
she forwarded to you on April 16, 2016.
16
13
that
Do you see that?
14
15
16
I have -- I don't have a specific
whether she
reported her sexual assault to the police?

A Jackie always told me that she didn't
report her rape to the police.
17
A Yes.
17
18
Q I'd like to direct your attention to 1733.
18
Dean Eramo encouraged or discouraged Ms.

from reporting her rape to the police?
19
Dean Eramo sends an e-mail on April 22, 2014 at
19
20
5:49 p.m.
20
21
Do you see where I'm looking?
Q And did you ever ask Ms.
whether
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Other than
21
what's in the article?

22
A Yes.
22
23
Q And Dean Eramo says to Jackie, "Thanks for
23
A Jackie presented me with the e-mail
24
coming in today. I'm sorry that the CPD officer
24
correspondence between herself and Dean Eramo,
25
was a little aggressive about investigating. I
25
which made it very clear, it puts it right here in
[Page 126]
[Page 128]
know that was stressful, and I truly apologize.
this e-mail that you're pointing out here, that
That said, it may be worth it to at least have
Dean Eramo always made it very clear that whatever
them check the video in the corner. If we can get
Jackie did was her choice.
good video and check photos of them from the FSL
Q In this e-mail, Dean Eramo suggests that
roster, we might be able to find them without
it would be worth to have the police check the
having to go to the fraternities."
video on the corner; isn't that correct?
Fair to say that you understood, upon
reviewing this e-mail chain, that Dean Eramo was
setting up an interview for Jackie with the police
10
11
regarding the bottle incident?
appears from these e-mails, of having the police
investigate the bottle throwing incident.
10
A Yes. Dean Eramo was very encouraging, it
Q And Dean Eramo also suggested that, if
11
they could get good video and check photos from
12
Mischaracterizes this document.
12
the FSL, which is Fraternity/Sorority Life roster,
13
A What I understood from that e-mail chain
13
that we might be able to find them without having
14
was that Jackie was meeting with police about the
14
to go to the fraternities; isn't that correct?
15
bottle throwing incident and she was communicating
15
16
with Dean Eramo about it.
16
A Yes, that's what it says.

Q Did you ever ask Jackie whether her
17
Q And later in this e-mail on 17033, Dean
17
meeting with the police on this occasion, or her
18
Eramo says, "As I said, I'm happy to meet with
18
later meeting with the police, was solely about
19
them and go along with you if you need some moral
19
the bottle incident?
20
support, just let me know."
20
A She told me it was about the bottle
21
Is it fair to say that you understood that
21
incident. I had no reason to believe that it was
22
Dean Eramo was offering to go with Jackie to the
22
about anything else.
23
police regarding the bottle incident?
23
24
A Yes, that's correct.
24
Exhibit 209, which I believe you have in front of
25
Q What steps did you take to ask Jackie
25
you, which are the photographs of Jackie's alleged
[Page 127]
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injuries from the bottle incident.

These are photographs that Ms.
A It looks familiar.
Q So my question is, and you may need to

have all of these in front of you, Plaintiff's
sent to you before publication of "A Rape on
Campus"; isn't that correct?
Exhibit 211, 209; 81, which is the police e-mail;
and 370, which is also in your stack somewhere.
MS. McNAMARA: Which one is 370?
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A Yes.
Q And I'm going to hand you what's been
marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 218.
(Document Bates stamped RS118221

10
MS. LOCKE: 370 is the one we were just
7
8
arguing about before the break.

MS. McNAMARA: Arguing?
9
10
A I don't think I have 81.

Q 81 is the police e-mails we were just
11
12
Q And in particular, I would like to direct

your attention to Bates RS118338 -- ending in 338.
13
It's towards the back.
13
MR. CHEW: 370, did you say?
14
The bottom, Ms.
14
MS. LOCKE: Yes.

MS. McNAMARA: I'm not finding 370. What
11
says, "And I mean,
12
looking at.
15
and Alex was also, like, the one person, like,
15
16
after I -- after I did have that beer bottle
16
17
thrown in my face, Alex helped me through that so
17
18
much. Like, you know, she was, like, the first
18
Q So my question, Ms. Erdely, is, besides
19
person that was with me -- that when she saw me,
19
Plaintiff's Exhibit 370, 81, 211, and 209, as you
20
she was, like, is that face paint? And I was,
20
sit here today, are you able to identify any other
21
like --"
21
documents that Ms.
22
course of your reporting?
And you respond, "It looked like paint, by
22
does it look like? Is it an e-mail?

MR. CHEW: Take that (handing).
provided to you in the
A Off the top of my head, yes. She also
23
the way. Like, when you sent the pictures, it
23
24
was, like, woah, that's so -- it didn't look like
24
forwarded me a number of student warnings that
25
a bruise. Like, it looked like something had been
25
were issued, Title IX warnings, that were issued
[Page 130]
1
smeared on your face."
Did you say those words to Ms.
[Page 132]
to the campus after sexual assault allegations.

Q And now that I'm thinking about it, she
A I did.
also forwarded you two text message e-mails, which
Q And when did you refer to the pictures,
we'll look at later.
are you referring to the picture that are
reflected in Plaintiff's Exhibit 209?
from
the text message e-mails, the warnings, and these
A Yes. But just to be clear, I wasn't be
But aside from those two different text

and
I believe -- aside from
incredulous, I was just remarking on the fact that
four exhibits that we have in front of you, is
this bruise is very bright red, so bright as to
there anything else, as you sit here today, that
10
look almost painted on. But I have no -- I
10
you can think of, that Ms.
11
entirely believed this was an authentic bruise.
11
the course of your reporting on "A Rape on
12
Q We're going to look back at 218 in a
12
Campus"? Documents, I mean.
13
couple of minutes. But I'd like to hand you
13
14
what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 211.
14
don't know whether she'll recall it, but
15
15
there's more. I just don't want the record to
16
16
reflect something inaccurate.
17
November 6, 2014 Bates stamped
17
18
18
lot of things. Off the top of my head, right now,
19
19
it's just difficult for me to recall.
20
Exhibit 211.)
20
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Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 211 is an e-mail from
MS. McNAMARA: There's more. I mean, I
A I mean, I know that she provided me with a
Q Okay.
I want to direct your attention to the
22
Ms.
23
e-mail she received from her work as a lifeguard
23
24
at UVa.
24
the middle of the reporting file.
25
Q And I want to direct your attention to
25
to you forwarding her -- forwarding an
21
provided you in
Do you recognize it as such?
[Page 131]
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reporting file on Rolling Stone 4336.

MS. McNAMARA: Here's my 370, it was in
[Page 133]
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the -- just to orient you where we were are in the

reporting file. It says, "I meet Jackie outside
of Starbucks in Peabody Hall. She is 15 minutes
late. I get seriously nervous, but then she shows
up."
This is the dinner that you had with
Ms.
on December 11th?
A Yes.
Q Is that correct?
A That's correct.
(Transcript Bates stamped
Exhibit 218.)
And
I'm
going to hand you what's been
Q
marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit -- well, actually,
218. You have it in front of you. Which is the
transcript from that dinner that night, okay.
Just to orient you with where we are, there is a
lot of paper flying around. And direct your
attention to Bates 118222, so ending in 222. At
the very beginning.
Jackie, towards the beginning of dinner,
says: "I think that when you've come, just like
Alex and I, where we have a similar story, when
down, Ms.
mother went to Brown for college; is that correct?
3
4
communicates to you that her
A Yes.
Q And then the following page, 226,
Ms.
mother about the red dress, and she said that she
communicates to you that she asked her
threw it out; is that correct?
A Yes, that's what she told me.
Q Could you turn to 229. On Rolling
10
Stone -- I'm sorry, on Plaintiff's Exhibit 218,
11
Bates 118229, you say to Jackie, "One of their
12
deeply rooted conditions is, like, you know, like,
13
fraternities run the show, and, you know, nobody
14
really does anybody about it."

15
16
17
A I did.
Q Do you believe that one of UVa's deeply
18
rooted traditions is that fraternities run the
19
show?
20
21
22
23
24
25
A I was repeating something to her that some

critics had said to me.
Q Do you hold that belief?
A I believe that fraternities are very
powerful institutions.
Q Do you believe they're powerful
[Page 134]
[Page 136]
institutions at UVa?
you come from a background where you're always
told that you're worthless, that you end up
getting into situations, I don't know, where it's
institutions at UVa, as well as other
like, people, you know, that, about you, you know?
institutions.
It's like you're an easy target because they know
that -- I don't know. I always felt like I was
bottom towards the bottom of the page, Ms.
manipulated or something, like I was easily
says, "And, like, you know, I did talk to Ryan. I
manipulated because I didn't have the self-esteem
finally saw him. I saw him at a cookout when I
to -- I don't know, it's difficult."
was getting a milkshake, and I was, like, Hey, so
10
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12
Did Ms.
communicate to you that
she was easily manipulated, Ms. Erdely?

A She wasn't talking about being
A Yes. Fraternities are powerful
Q If you could turn the page to 230. At the
10
did you get any of my texts? And he was, like,
11
Yeah, I got them. And I was like, So, would you
12
be interested. And he was, like, No." And then

she goes on.
13
manipulated -- what she was talking about was in
13
14
the context of rape. We were continuing a
14
15
conversation we had when we were walking across
15
16
campus where she felt as though she had a target
16
17
on her back in terms of sexual assault because she
17
18
had had an abusive background and she had low
18
19
self-esteem. And that she felt, from meeting
19
Q And then, if you could turn to 256 in
20
other people in One Less and from reading the
20
Plaintiff's Exhibit 218. A little beyond the
21
research, she knew that she had that in common
21
middle of the page down, you communicate to
22
with other sexual assault victims.
22
Ms.
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Q I direct your attention to 225, Bates

ending 225 in Plaintiff's Exhibit 218.
23
people to get in touch with, too, so, Ryan is
24
obviously out."
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25
A little beyond the middle of the page
[Page 135]
25
You say, "Wow."

And she goes on to explain that Mr. Duffin
was not interested in speaking with you.
Is that correct?
A Yes.
"Okay, great. And as far as other
[Page 137]
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A Yes. Ryan -- as I mentioned before, of
the three friends, Ryan was the friendliest of the
three, the one who she felt was most likely to
if it was here or elsewhere, but she talks about
speak to me. I was very surprised that he would
things like she orients herself and she tends --
have such -- or I was upset, on her behalf, that
doesn't feel comfortable in a room unless she
he would have such an extreme reaction to her
orients herself so that she's facing -- so that
cooperation with my article, especially
her back is against the wall so that nobody can
considering because she was also conveying to me
surprise her.
how many of her other friends were very
She told me that she oriented her room so
10
that her bed was in a corner so that she can see
10
discouraging of her talking to me.
talking here about she has nightmares.

She had talked to me about -- I don't know
11
So, seeing as Ryan was going to be my
11
the door from there. I'm sure there were other
12
entree to the three friends, I didn't see how I
12
things that she mentioned, but these are all --
13
was going to be able to communicate with him.
13
these are all PTSD-like symptoms.
14
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Q If you could turn to Bates 266 on

Plaintiff's Exhibit 218. Here you and Ms.
15
Q Did you personally observe any symptoms of

Jackie's that would signify to you that she had
16
are having a conversation about scars from
16
PTSD?
17
crashing through the glass table; is that correct?
17
18
19
20
21
22
A Yes.
Q And you ask Ms.
on her back; isn't that correct?
to see the scars
A Yes.
Q And she shows you her arm; is that
correct?
A Well, she did become depressed around the
18
time of the anniversary. I did notice that she
19
was easily startled. She, at times, could be very
20
paranoid. She had these conspiracy theories; for
21
example, that this was a hazing ritual. And she
22
sometimes would tell me that -- when I would
23
contact her, she would sometimes tell me that she
24
A Yes.
24
would sleep -- she was sleeping very late because
25
Q And you don't see any scars on her arm;
25
she had trouble sleeping the night before.
23
[Page 138]
1
isn't that correct?
[Page 140]
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A I saw something. But in that lighting, I
wasn't able to see much. The next night I was
able to see what she was talking about.
Q If you could turn to 270. During this
dinner on September the 11th, you ask Ms.
whether she has PTSD; is that correct?
8
9
A Yes. She had been describing her symptoms

and it sounded very much like -- I've reported
8
9
10
stories on people with PTSD, and talked to experts
10
11
about PTSD, and it sounded like she was describing
11
12
symptoms of PTSD.
12
13
Q And that's exactly what you said to her,
13
14
"It sounds like it, it sounds like you have PTSD,"
14
15
correct?
15
16
A Yes.
16
17
Q What made you believe that Jackie had
17
18
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PTSD, what symptoms?

A She was still living very much in the
19
20
moment of her trauma. She had a lot of trouble
20
21
leaving that behind. She was easily startled.
21
22
She had trouble sleeping, she had trouble
22
23
concentrating. She talked about -- she talks here
23
24
about how she was terrified to go to sleep. She
24
25
became depressed around the anniversary. She's
25
[Page 139]
Q I guess I'm -- I'm less concerned with

what she told you, but if you personally observed
it with your own senses.
A Well, you know, I think it's hard to
observe a lot of PTSD because PTSD is a very
subjective thing. So, you really rely -- and I
think that, you know, experts rely on the person
telling them what their symptoms are. It's
something that goes on within your own head.
So, much of what people evaluate with PTSD
is what is reported to you.
Q No, I understand that.
A So, I was relying on what she was
reporting to me. And, as a credible source, I was
trusting that those things were accurate.
Q And that's, that's fair in terms of what
she told you.
I'm just asking, in your interactions with
her, aside from what she verbally mentioned to
you, did you observe any physical symptoms of
PTSD, other than ones that you've already
articulated?
A I mean, the ones that I articulated were
the ones -- are the ones that come immediately to
mind.
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Q Okay. I'm going to hand you what's been

marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 419.
(E-mail from Sean Woods to
Sabrina Rubin Erdely dated
RS015470 was referenced as
Q It's an e-mail exchange between you and
Mr. Woods on September 11th, 2014; is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q On September 11, 2014 at 10:45 p m., you
write to Mr. Woods, "What a day. Tracked down
Jackie. She was freaking out, but now is totally
back on board. She is concerned for her safety
once the story comes out. Afraid of being
physically attacked on campus (with reason) but
finally decided she'd be okay with just using her
first name, no last. That okay?"
Did you send that e-mail to Mr. Woods?
A I did. But just to correct, I think you
said it was 10:45. It was actually at 10:54 p m.
Q Mr. Woods responds to you at 10:54 p m.,
but your original e-mail to him was at 10:45.
A My mistake.
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And at this dinner, you ask about the

scars on her back, correct?
A Right. First I see that she has the scars
on her arms, which are now visible to me in the
better lighting. And then I ask about the scars
on her back.
Q And she told you that they're not as
distinct anymore; is that correct?
A Yes.
says, "I haven't
Q And her boyfriend
seen any marks on your back"; is that correct?
A Yes.
in fact, say those words
Q And did
during that dinner?
A He did.
A Okay. And I should mention -- I mean,
this was not concerning to me. This was a fairly
new relationship, and Jackie then followed up by
saying that her mom had asked her about the scars
before, so I had made a mental note to bring it up
with her mother when I eventually spoke to her,
which I planned to do and tried very hard to do.
Q I'd like to draw your attention to Bates
374 onto 375, and 376. If you want to skim those,
[Page 142]
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2
Q And Mr. Woods responds to you, "Yes,

okay"; is that correct?
[Page 144]
1
I have a pretty general question. So, nothing
super specific, but just to orient yourself.
A Yes.

Following your dinner on September 11th,
Q 374, 375, 376.

A Okay. (Perusing document.)
you were obviously in Charlottesville at this
point in time, correct?
A Correct.
you want her to -- you should read through
page 8378 so that you get the whole discussion
Q And you had dinner the following night on

the 12th with Alex Pinkleton, Ms.
and her
10
11
then-boyfriend,
11
12
correct?
13
at College Inn; is that
12
A Yes.
MS. McNAMARA: The whole discussion -- if
10
A I'm sorry, which pages do you want me to

read?
13
regarding Law & Order.

MS. LOCKE: My questions don't go that
far.
MS. McNAMARA: But I want her to have the
14
context so she understands.
15

15
A Okay.
16
16
17
17
September the 12th, tells you that she watched a
18
18
Law & Order SVU episode that was similar to her
19
Exhibit 219.)
19
rape, correct?
20
A Correct.
21
Q This is the transcript of the dinner on

September the 12th. And I direct your attention
22
to Rolling Stone 118372.
22
14
20
21
Q Ms.
during this dinner on
Q And she tells you there is a girl at a

frat party in the episode, correct?
23
And again, I think you referenced earlier
23
A Correct.
24
that you had asked Jackie about her scars and that
24
Q And that one of the guys in the episode
25
it came up at a later point in time.
25
takes her up to a room, is that correct, page 375?
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A Yes.
Q And that four guys gang raped her in this
episode?
A Yes.
Q And that nobody believes this rape victim
in the episode; is that correct?
A Yes. She goes to police, nobody believes
her, yes.
tells you that, in the
Q And Ms.
episode, it's uncovered that the gang rape has
been going on for a long time; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And she tells you that eventually the girl
commits suicide in this episode, correct?
A Yes.
Q And she tells you that it's a later season
episode with Elliot in it; isn't that correct?
A Yes. Although that doesn't mean anything
to me.
Q And Jackie goes on, through this
discussion, to say how upset she was because this
fictional account of gang rape was so similar to
her rape; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever bother to go and try to
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Q In this episode of Law & Order SVU, the

alleged perpetrators say, Grab her leg.
Do you have any reason to dispute that?
foundation. If you want to show her the
episode, she said she never watched it.
A I never watched the episode, I wouldn't
know.
told you
Q At the time that Ms.
about this incident, you had no reason to go and
view it; that's your testimony?
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Asked and
answered. She explained that she saw it in
May.
A Yeah, my explanation here is that I don't
really understand the correlation here between -she had reported a gang rape a year earlier -twice, in the preceding year, and then told me
that, after the fact, she had seen an episode of a
television show that was about a gang rape. So, I
don't know why I would go and watch that
television show.
Q You understand, Ms. Soltis, you already
testified, told you that Ms.
story of
gang rape that Ms.
originally told
[Page 146]
[Page 148]
identify the Law & Order SVU episode that Jackie
Ms. Soltis, was a story of oral sex with five men;
was referring to here?
is that correct?
A Why would I?
A Yes. But that, by the following fall --
Q I'm asking if you did.

A I didn't see any reason to.
which is, by the way, well before she watched
apparently this episode of Law & Order SVU -- she
Q Is that a "no"?
A She recounted to me -- I just want to
had changed her story to be more truthful, to
embrace the full truth, which is that she had
actually been assaulted by seven men vaginally.
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understand this.
So, she recounted to me a television
Q How do you know that that story was more

truthful than her original story of gang rape?
10
episode that she watched in May of that, of that
10
11
year, that we were talking, that was similar to an
11
A Well, that's the way -- that is the way --
12
account of gang rape that she had given earlier
12
this is putting myself back in the shoes at the
13
that same year, and also the year before. And
13
time. This was the way it was presented to me by
14
you're wondering whether I -- whether I went and
14
Rachel Soltis.
15
watched that episode?
15
And, in my experience in writing about
16
trauma victims and sexual assault victims, I do
17
know that their stories do sometimes morph over
18
time as they come to terms with what happened to
19
them, as they get over the shame and self-blame
20
that afflicts them. They often do come out with
21
further details, or different details, over time.
22
Q You've become aware, in this litigation,

that Ms.
is accused of having sent Ryan
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Duffin a love letter that was plagiarized from
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Dawson's Creek; is that correct?
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Q Yes.
A No.
Q Have you since, during this litigation or
anytime after, watched that episode?
A No.
A I read that.
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[Page 147]
Q And that Jackie's story had morphed over

time lent to her credibility, in your mind?
question.
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Q You can answer it.

A It further reinforced that -- it didn't
1
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there have been some legit worrisome issues."

And feel free to flip forward and
change my view of her credibility. It further
reinforced that she was a trauma victim, and I
backwards to make sure we're sort of in the same
know this is consistent with how trauma victims
vicinity.
act.
Q I want to direct your attention to

Exhibit 219 that's still in front of you, 384,
very bottom of the page, going over onto 385. You
A Yes.
Q Ms.
communicates to you that, "We
love Dean Eramo." And you communicate to her, "I
get that, and I'm getting that from everybody.

Everybody loves her and I understand that, but
10
ask Ms. Pinkleton -- you say, "So, Alex, Jackie
10
11
had mentioned you had some reservations or some
11
she's going to play some part in the story because
12
concerns about the article. If you did, we could,
12
she plays a part in everybody's story."
13
like, sort of, talk it through."
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16
And Ms. Pinkleton goes on to explain that

she is worried about Dean Eramo; is that correct?
A Yes.
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16
Do you see that in Plaintiff's

Exhibit 387?
A I'm sorry, where is that?
MS. McNAMARA: It's towards the top third,
17
after the bold, "We love Dean Eramo."
18
Q And you tell Ms. Pinkleton that you hear

from everybody that they love Dean Eramo; isn't
18
A Yes.
19
that correct?
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17
Q And Ms.
goes on to tell you that,
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A Yes. And that's reflected in the article.
20
in the next paragraph, "Yeah, I'm worried about
21
also says to you that she's

Q Ms.
worried about Dean Eramo's job security; isn't
21
her job," which is consistent with what we just
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22
looked at in Plaintiff's Exhibit 219, correct?
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that correct?
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A Well, I don't know if that's what she

means -- are you referring to when they say, they
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kick her in the bucket, when it's not her?

Q No, if you turn the page to 386.
A Oh, I see.
Yes. But, again, all of this stuff -- you
know, Jackie and Alex are clearly telling me that
they like Dean Eramo, and all of that is reflected
in the article. I have Jackie quoted as saying
that Dean Eramo is an asset to the community.
What I'm bringing out in the article is
that, despite -- and what I believe I go on to try
to discuss with them is that, I'm having trouble
squaring the idea that they like her so much, but,
at the same time, I don't understand why more
cases are not moving forward.
Q And, at this point in the interview, you
turn off your tape recorder; isn't that correct?
A Where is that?
Q I can direct your attention to Plaintiff's
Exhibit 387, Bates 4381.
A Oh, that's different.
MS. McNAMARA: She wants to go back.
Q You probably want to leave Plaintiff's
Exhibit 219 open.
But 4381, the middle of the page, "I turn
the recorder off and tell them that I do think
[Page 151]
A Right.
Q And, at that point, you turn the tape
recorder off; isn't that correct?
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A Yes.
Q Why did you turn the tape recorder off to
speak about Dean Eramo?
A It wasn't specifically because I was
talking about Dean Eramo. There are a couple of
places here where I turned the tape recorder off.
I often take the time to turn the tape recorder
off when I'm going to go on at some length, and I
know that I'm the one who does most of the
transcribing myself, almost always, and I don't
need to hear my own voice on tape.
So, if I know that there's going to be a
discussion that's not going to wind up being in
the article, then I wind up turning off the tape
recorder. It has nothing to do with this being
about Dean Eramo.
When I turned off the tape recorder, what
I discussed with them is just a continuation of
what we talked about here, which is that they are
uncomfortable with the idea -- I'm discussing now
the idea that I think that UVa may not be doing
such a great job with some of these cases, some of
these cases that might require greater action
because of greater issues of campus security. And
they're concerned that it's going to reflect badly
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on Dean Eramo. And what I'm saying here is that,

I'm not talking actually talking about Dean Eramo,
it's just that the problem is, that she's the most
public face of sexual assault on campus because
she's the intake person.
Q You say here -- I take it, because it's in
brackets, this is a summary. And you've just said
that you'll turn off the tape recorder because
you'll go on at length; is that correct?
A At length meaning -- I mean, I don't know
if you're getting the sense -- because this is a
deposition. But I'm not really that big a talker.
So I don't really go on at -- when I say, "at
great length," you know, I don't really talk in a
lengthy way.
Q Well, when you were going on at great
length, or not at great length, you said that
there have been some legit worrisome issues that
have been raised that may not reflect well on the
administration, of which Dean Eramo is the most
public face because she is the one who deals with
students.
Did you communicate that when you turned
the tape recorder off?
A Yes. Well, that's exactly what I was just
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[Page 154]
1
telling you. That the administration is -- you
know, I was concerned that the administration was
not handling certain things correctly and that
Dean Eramo -- I wasn't even aware, at that point,
who else was up the chain from Dean Eramo.

So, they were discussing their concerns
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about Dean Eramo, and I was just trying to tell
them that Dean Eramo is just one person in this
chain. But so far, she is the person who sort of
10
most identifiable with this because she is the one
11
who interfaces with students.
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Q And you communicated to Ms. Pinkleton and
13
Ms.
14
whether Jackie's case has been handled correctly;
15
isn't that correct?
16
that you do have questions about
A That's correct. Because, as you know,
17
I've spoken to Laura Dunn and to Daniel Carter,
18
and they were of the opinion that there should
19
have been a campus warning issued.
20
Q And you turn the recorder back on. And
21
then down another paragraph or so, you say, "I
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think Dean Eramo seems like a wonderful person and
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I know you all love her, but it's not clear she's
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doing right by you or the university in this
25
scenario."
[Page 155]

and to Ms. Pinkleton?
A Yes.
Q That she's mishandling the whole -- "That
the situation is probably being mishandled."
and Ms. Pinkleton?
A I said it's not clear she's doing right by
you. So, it was unclear to me about the handling
of this situation, but that I did think that the
situation is probably being mishandled by
ultimately who was handling those issues, because
there was no campus warning that was issued.
and
Q You go on to say to Ms.
Ms. Pinkleton, "Because you aren't able to have
any kind of resolution and she may be putting the
entire community at risk."
and Ms. Pinkleton?
A Yes. And I also, by the way, elaborate.
The reason I had called Laura Dunn in the first
place was because there was a similar Title IX
investigation going on at Johns Hopkins, which I
mention right here, in which they were being
investigated for Title IX, in part because John
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Hopkins did not alert the campus in a timely

fashion, or at all, when there was a rape
investigation happening at a fraternity.
Q If you could turn your attention to
Plaintiff's Exhibit 219, Bates ending in 387. I
want to direct your attention to the bottom of the
page.
; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And on 388, you communicate to
Ms.
"Oh, my God, no, this is important,
actually, because this is, this is all -- anything
that bolsters your story is helpful."
A Yes.
Q Further down on that same page, you say,
"I think it's incredibly important. I mean,
that's all. This is all, like, part of, like,
building your case, you know. I mean, Alex is
right. Like, your testimony plus the
documentation, plus, like, the sort of ancillary,
like, you know, like people saying, like, yes,
she's totally changed around, then, like, you
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know, her grades dropped."

A Yes. I was hoping to accumulate as much
detail as possible for the article.
Q You thought her medical records were
important to bolster her story; isn't that
correct?
A At the time, I -- I mean, at the time I
did, as a way of trying to get her to just turn
over as much stuff as she possibly could, and then
I could sift through it later and decide what was
going to be important to the article and what as
not.
A She did not.
Q At the bottom of 388, Jackie changes the
subject and she says, "I mean, I know that they
have the anonymous report because I was with her
when she sent it in."

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A Yes.
Q And Ms.
that
was communicating to you
-- am I using the right name? That
10
the first year, she was with
11
apparently communicated and put forward an
when
12
anonymous report to the Dean of Students; is that
13
correct?
14
A Yes.
15
15
Q And on the next page, 389, you respond,
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"So why isn't Dean Eramo fucking doing anything?
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This makes me so mad, actually. This makes me so
18
fucking mad."
14
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A Actually, ultimately, I decided -- I mean,

I did try to get those records. And I tried very
hard. I was very persistent, as you can probably
see in my notes.
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20
A I did.
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Q And then, later, Jackie responds and then
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later you say, "This is why Dean Eramo doesn't
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want -- and this is actually why -- this is why
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UVa celebrated up here because they all, they all
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know."
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[Page 158]
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and it didn't run in the article.
[Page 160]
A I don't remember saying these words, and I
Q And you said you tried multiple times to
get those medical records. That was from Jackie,
correct?
A I just don't know if this is a correct
don't even know what they mean.

Do you dispute that you said those words?
A That was from Jackie who said that -- at
first, she thought she didn't have them. And then
transcription because it just doesn't make any
I asked if she could get another copy of them for
sense.
me. Then she said she did have them. They were
in a file at her house, which I asked her if she
10
can go and get them. She said her mother was
10
11
going to come and visit her on campus. She was
11
A I don't know what I was supposing Dean
12
going to ask her for them. But then she was
12
Eramo wanted. All I knew, at that time, about
13
uncomfortable asking her mother because her mother
13
Dean Eramo, was that she was not allowed to meet
14
didn't know about it.
14
with me.
15
Ultimately, she said that she was going to
I was going to ask you what you meant when
you said "Dean Eramo wants." What does that mean?

What did you believe Dean Eramo wanted?
We had had an interview scheduled that I
15
16
ask her mother to bring it to campus. And then,
16
had been very much looking forward to. It was
17
Jackie and I fell out of touch for a little bit.
17
actually supposed to be earlier that day, and I
18
And by the time she came back onto the radar
18
was very frustrated because it had been canceled
19
screen, I just -- you know,
19
over my objections. And it gave me the sense that
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20
I was being stonewalled, and that they were trying
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21
to prevent -- that UVa was trying to prevent
22
22
information from getting out.
23
Q But Jackie ultimately didn't get the
23
24
medical records that you had asked for; is that
24
25
correct?
25
[Page 159]
What did you mean when you said "UVa
celebrated up here"?
A I don't actually think I said that. I
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think that's got to be -- that doesn't even make
inquiry into what victim's choice meant on -- in
any sense. That must be -- that must be an
the real life situation of a college campus. And
erroneous transcription.
I couldn't make guarantees as to how everybody was
going to turn out.
4
5
Q I'm going to direct your attention to 392.

At the top of the page, you ask Ms.
to
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7
isn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q And then Ms.
10
has them; is that right?
11
12
responds that her mom
A Yes.
Q And then you ask her, when you speak to
Now, I took into account -- I mean, they
really impressed upon me in this discussion, and
others, and other people did as well, that Dean
Eramo was beloved on campus, and I incorporated
that into the article.
10
Q You respond to Alex, you say, "I mean, if
11
it makes you feel better, I can make it clear that
12
you guys all love her," correct?
13
Ms.
the senior, if you could ask her to
13
14
send those to you, the medical records, correct?
14
A Yes.
Q And Alex responds, "Love her. Yeah, yeah,
15
A Yes.
15
that would be good. I just don't want it to be,
16
Q And Jackie goes on to say, "I don't think
16
like, us --" and then it's indiscernible. And
17
Jackie says, "Article bashing."
17
18
19
20
my mom has them, actually, I never told her."

Do you see that?
18
And you respond, "Right. It can be me,
A Yes.
19
sort of, saying, like, like, you know, this woman
Q Did that cause a red flag in your mind,
20
should be doing more, you know."
21
that Jackie was telling you that her mom had the
21
22
medical records. And then when you asked for
22
23
those medical records and for her mom to send them
23
24
to you, she was then changing her story that her
24
criticism -- they wanted to make sure that they
25
mom didn't have them?
25
didn't want to come across as being overly
[Page 162]
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question.
A No, that didn't concern me.
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5
-- I don't know
whether it's really captured by the description,
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9
So, I don't think Jackie had been prepared
10
to talk about it. So, her mind was -- I just took
11
that as she was thinking out loud. Her mom
12
probably has all of her medical records. And
13
then, wait, no, she didn't tell her mom about it.
14
That, that makes -- that was not -- didn't appear
15
to me to be problematic at all.
16
Q I'm going to direct your attention to 393,
17
the next page, the very bottom, "Alex, just
18
getting back to, like, why you're concerned. So,
19
I mean, is this going to make Dean Eramo look bad?
20
I might, you know, it might make her look bad."
21
Did you communicate that to Ms. Pinkleton?
22
A I did. I was just preparing her for the
23
idea that this was not going to be some kind of
24
puff piece. I was going where the reporting was
25
leading me. I was opening the -- this line of
[Page 163]
Did you communicate that to Ms. Pinkleton

and Ms.
A Yes. I mean, meaning that the
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critical of, of their university or of Dean Eramo,

as the administrator of sexual assault cases.
And so, I was making it clear to them that
it wasn't going to reflect badly on them. That
if -- if it was going to be my opinion that things
were not being handled entirely the way that they
should at the university, that that was going to
be the opinion of me and whatever other critics I
included in the article.
Q And that criticism was going to come from
you, correct?
A In part, that would be the conclusion that
I reached. But, in part, it would be informed by
the critics that I include in the article.
Q And you go on to say, "But not you guys.
I mean, you guys have never said anything to that
effect."
A Yes. To that point, they had never been
critical of Dean Eramo. Alex changed her mind
later in the process, as I'm sure you've seen in
my notes.
Q Do you think the article made Dean Eramo
look bad?
A I don't think it made her look -- I feel
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as though it made clear that Dean Eramo was in a
A Oh, no, I do not.
pretty difficult situation; having to navigate the
Q I want to direct your attention to --
needs of these students which are significant,
well, let me -- before I do that. You
their emotional needs, and. Also having to comply
understand -- you know what FERPA is, correct?
with this whole notion of victim's choice, was, at
this point, kind of the trend on campus where any
decision is considered to be a good decision.
And yet, at the same time, Title IX makes
A Now I do.
Q You understood -- you knew what FERPA was
before the publication of the article, correct?
A I had some understanding. It's hard for

me to remember how much I knew about it then
certain demands that certain cases have to move
10
forward in certain ways into these campus courts
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11
that are really not prepared to handle these kinds
11
12
of things.
12
This is your interview -- this is a phone call

that you had with Mr. McGregor.
versus how much I know about it now.

Q Well, I can direct your attention to 4223.
13
So, that is what I tried to make clear in
13
14
the article, that I think that she's in a -- she,
14
Do you recall having a conversation with
15
and administrators, are in very difficult
15
Mr. McGregor about Dean Eramo's interview?
16
positions.
16
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Q I'd like to direct your attention to

Plaintiff's Exhibit 387, your reporting file, and
19
Bates 4203. And this is your interview with
19
MS. LOCKE: Oh, I apologize.
20
John --
20
Q I'm sorry, this is an interview with
18
A 4223?
MS. McNAMARA: I think this is an
interview with Daniel Carter.
21
Daniel Carter. Who's the -- who is Daniel Carter?
22
A He is -- he used to be the head of a group
23
Q 4203. This is a part of your interview

with Mr. Foubert who is the founder with One in
23
called Security on Campus, which is now the Cleary
24
Four.
24
Foundation, which is responsible for -- it's like
25
a campus safety watchdog group. And now he's the
21
22
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A I'm sorry, what page?
Do you recall having an interview with
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him?
A Yes.
Q And at the top of Plaintiff's Exhibit 387,
Bates 4203, Mr. Foubert, and it's in bold in your
notes, Mr. Foubert tells you that the University
of Virginia was the third One in Four chapter, but
they're the oldest chapter in continuous
existence; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You didn't mention that fact in the
article; is that correct?
A I mention that they have a One in Four
chapter.
Q You also interviewed Brian Head, who was
the head of One in Four; is that correct?
A Yes, I quote him in the article.
Q And you quote him as saying something
along the lines of the most impressive person in
UVa is the person who gets straight As and goes
out to all the parties; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You don't identify him as the president of
One in Four, do you?
A Why is that necessary?
Q I'm asking you the question.
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head of the Virginia Tech -- it's basically the

same, the same kind of role but at Virginia Tech.
Q And in your interview with Mr. Carter,
there's some back and forth about federal
violation in UVa.
Do you recall having an interview with
Mr. Carter about that?
A I recall having an interview with
Mr. Carter, yes.
Q And Mr. Carter says that, "I do recall
very specifically that this was only in one
respect to punishment --"
MS. McNAMARA: Where are you reading?
MS. LOCKE: On 4223, in the middle of the
page.
Q "I do recall very specifically that this
was only in respect to punishment because the
university had felt compelled due to law. They
thought they were complying with another law."
To which you respond, "FERPA?"
Do you see that?
A Uh-huh.
Q It's fair to say, as of your interview
with Mr. Carter on July 27, you at least had an
understanding that FERPA imposed some laws on
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universities with respect to student privacy; is

that correct?
A Yes. In kind of the most general sense,
but yes.
Q And you had a call with Mr. McGregor,
correct, before you were supposed to interview
Dean Eramo; is that correct?
A Correct. After I set up the interview
with Dean Eramo, she suggested that I -- wait,
I -- I don't remember how that call came about.
4326, and we'll get it in front of us.
In your interview with Mr. McGregor, he
tells you that, "She," meaning Dean Eramo, "can't
talk about any specific cases or allegations
because of student privacy. They never talk about
that."
A Right, yes.
Q "What if I were to get a waiver from the
students?"
Did you ask Mr. McGregor that question?
A I did. I was sort of brainstorming -- I
was dismayed to hear that they wouldn't be able to
speak about specific cases because of privacy.
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[Page 170]
[Page 172]
And so, the first thing I thought of was, you
know, what's -- what are ways that we could get
around that. So, I wondered whether there was
some kind of waiver.
Q Did you ask Jackie for a FERPA waiver?
A I didn't know that a FERPA waiver even
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Q Did you ask for -- did you ask for any
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kind of waiver from Jackie?

A No. Well, I asked McGregor whether such a
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But they did make it clear, nonetheless --
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Q But did you ever ask Jackie for a waiver?
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brainstorming. I didn't even know that such a
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Q So, it's fair to say you never presented
[Page 171]
the University of Virginia with a waiver that

would allow to you speak candidly with the
University of Virginia about Jackie's allegations;
is that correct?
foundation and misstates the evidence.
A To be clear, too, I actually, to this day,
I don't know even if such a waiver exists. If
there is some kind of boiler plate that somebody
could go ahead and sign. I don't even know.
Q What steps did you take to investigate
whether such a waiver exists?
A None. McGregor said that they had never
done anything like that. He sounded kind of
dumbfounded at the idea. He said that he would
run it up the chain and get back to me about it.
Q You responded to him, "I don't know if we
have time to do all of that before my trip"; isn't
that correct?
A Yes. But then I said, "Maybe afterwards,
it's a possibility for a follow-up because we have
time."
as Plaintiff's Exhibit 61, which is the transcript
25
of your interview with Sara Surface.

(Transcript of interview with
Sara Surface Bates stamped
Exhibit 61.)
Q Do you recall interviewing Sara Surface
for "A Rape on Campus"?
A Yes.
Bates ending in 129. You tell Ms. Surface, sort
of in italics in the middle of the page down, "And
the idea that gang rape happens here is something
that, as a person who is like an optimist and a
lover of humanity, I had a really hard time
wrapping my mind around. And so the article is
going to be -- that is definitely going to change.
I mean, having a gang rape in your article is
going to change the nature of your article."
A Yes.
Q Did you communicate that to Ms. Surface?
A Yes.
Q How, in your view, would including a gang
rape in your article change the nature of the
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article?
A Well, I mean, as I go on to say, I was
normal. And now they're being told to wait a
minute -- that they're being told, wait a minute,
sort of thinking aloud with Sara. Everything that
it's not normal and you need to rethink them and
happened while I was on the campus, finding
change. That's, a lot, I think."
Jackie, speaking with her more at length, and
realizing, for the first time, that Jackie really
A Yes, it was part of a larger conversation
was going to play a part in the article -- which
we were having about sexual assault on college
hadn't been clear up to that point -- made me try
campus and how difficult it is to change cultural
to understand how I was going to square the idea
norms.
Did you communicate that to Ms. Surface?
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that -- I'd originally been trying to fit together
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an article about something that was going to be
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12
very nuanced about campus culture and hookups and
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drinking, and then how do you -- how do you
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privilege is one that we all live in, not just at
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present all of that with something as, you know,
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UVa.
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as shocking, I guess, as, as a gang rape.
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Q But it's fair to say that there is a

culture, in your view, a culture of male privilege
and entitlement at UVa?
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ending in 151. The end of the long paragraph, my
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understanding is that the text that's not in
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italics is where you are not speaking, it's
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Ms. Surface speaking; is that correct?
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A This is actually my first time looking at
Q Do you believe that there is a culture of

male privilege and entitlement at UVa?
A I believe that the culture of male
MR. CHEW: Object to the form of the

question. Asked and answered.
A Yes, I came to believe that. Especially
21
through my conversations with these young women
22
this particular one. I'm sorry, so the part
22
like Sara Surface and Alex Pinkleton. Alex, who
23
where -- can you repeat that?
23
is always referencing the patriarchy, and part of
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their reason for wanting to create this sexual
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assault -- antisexual assault group, One in
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Q So, the paragraph that's not in italics

where there's bolding, that would be Sara Surface
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speaking. But the italics on the page is where

you would be speaking; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And Ms. Surface says, "Like, it's trendy
to think rape is bad now, but are we actually
doing anything about it? And so, I think that's
why we're not as radical, because we think that we
have to take these small steps to get the campus
culture on the same line."
And you respond, "I think that's very hard
to ask people to change their ways, not to just be
able to change their culture, but actually to
change things, I think."
Did you say that?
A Yes. It looks like it was the beginning
of a thought, yes.
Q And then you continue your thought. It
says, after the waiter interrupts and says -- you
say, "My pleasure." It says, "But especially to
ask the men to change because it's like, you know,
what we're talking about is changing the culture
of male privilege and entitlement, and a sense
that they've been looking forward their whole
lives, to go to college and indulge in these kinds
of behaviors that they've always been taught is
[Page 175]
[Page 176]
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Four -- I mean, One Less, and partnering with One
in Four was -- it was to challenge those kinds of
constructs.
And in fact, Brian Head and Matt
Menenez's, both of whom are in One in Four, and
John Foubert, who was the founder of One in Four,
all talk about how that was really the impetus to
start One in Four in the first place. Because, in
order to challenge that male-dominated structure,
10
it needs to be challenged by men.
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Q Do you also believe that there's a culture

at UVa where men look forward to going to college
13
and indulge in behaviors that they've been taught
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is normal?
15
A I think that everyone, male and female,
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goes to college -- not everyone. Many people go
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to college, male and female, assuming, from all of
18
the expectations that they've been given, that
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it's going to be a free-willing good time with
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lots of drinking and sex and -- and those are the
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expectations that our culture loathes them with.
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Q But with respect to men in particular,

what are the behaviors that they've been taught
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are normal that you're referring to here?
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A That -- well, exactly that. That college
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is a place where everybody wants to get drunk and
were -- that I was discussing with many of these
have sex. And not everybody at college wants to
women, like with Emily Renda, and she was citing
get drunk and have sex.
the research of Elizabeth Armstrong where women
have to walk this very fine line of wanting to
look hot, but not slutty, because men are looking
for women who are hot. The expectation is that,
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Q Are those -- did those behaviors include

rape-acceptance?
A Well, as we can see on other campuses --
and I reference this in the article -- and if you
if you look really hot, then you're probably up
don't mind, I'm going to look up the article just
for sex.
so I can be accurate about this. This -- I think
And I think that that's really the crux of
10
what Sara and I are talking about, is the idea
10
it might be in the bottom of my stack here.
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MS. McNAMARA: Here it is (handing).
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that is women are engaged in certain behaviors,
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THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12
then they're -- then they're implicitly giving
13
consent for sex.
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A This kind of culture of, sort of, male
14
entitlement and the way that it bleeds into sexual
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assault is the kind of nuanced thing that I wanted
15
Q And those are -A And these are exactly the kinds of things,
16
to address in the article. And it shows up in
16
by the way, that groups like One in Four and One
17
places where I kind of take people on a tour of
17
Less are trying to educate the fraternities to try
18
other campuses and some of the outrageous things
18
to make them understand that, that those things
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that have happened on other campuses.
19
are not the case. That, just because a woman is
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incredibly drunk or passed out, or even taking off
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So, for example, that translates into, at
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Yale, there was an episode where men were walking
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her clothes, it doesn't necessarily mean that she
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around chanting, "No means yes; yes means anal."
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is giving consent.
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All right, so there was a University of
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Wisconsin-Milwaukee fraternity that was accused of
24
Q I want to direct your attention to your

reporting file, Plaintiff's Exhibit 387, and Bates
25
using color-coded hand stamps as a signal to
25
4404.
23
[Page 178]
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roofie their guests.
[Page 180]
MS. McNAMARA: 4404?
This didn't make it into the article, but
MS. LOCKE: 4404.
there were -- there was a -- was this in here?
The Dartmouth rape guide that was published on one
Q And you can flip a few pages forward and

backward, and I believe this is an interview with
of their anonymous student boards, which gave
Ms.
detailed instructions as to how to rape vulnerable
freshman.
These are the kinds of things that boil
on or around September 16th.

And if you could just confirm that that's
correct.
A Yes.
over when you have these expectations that come
10
onto the campus and express themselves in overly
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Q In the middle of the page of 4404, you ask

Ms.
"How would you feel if I reached out
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hostile ways.
11
to him --" being
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Now, it expressed itself in more subtle
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ways in the University of Virginia campus, but
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nobody -- I mean, I don't, I don't -- are you
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saying that -- you're asking me whether such a
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16
thing exists?
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Q No. I was just asking what are the
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behaviors that you were talking about with Sara
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Surface that they've been taught are the norm in
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this conversation that you've been having with
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Sara Surface about sexual assault.
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And so, I'm just curious what those
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behaviors that men have that you think are the
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norm.
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A Well, I think the kinds of things that we
[Page 179]
"-- for comment?"
Do you see that?

A Yes.
says that she's not
Q And Ms.
comfortable with that, correct?
A Yes.
may not live in
Q And she suggests that
Charlottesville anymore; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you tell her to think about it; isn't
that correct?
A Yes.
Q Why do you ask her to think about it? Did
you need Ms.
consent to reach out to
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A No. But I wanted her to be comfortable

with the idea.
We had built up a level of -- over the
with them. And while I was waiting for her -- and
I had given her a laundry list of things for her
to come back to me with, and she came back to me
course of our interactions, she had confided in me
with quite a bit of it.
a lot of incredibly sensitive stuff, and was
willing to go public with it. She was even -- I
back to me, I did a little bit of my own
can't remember if, at this point, she was willing
independent research, and I found their own last
to use her real name. But, at some point, she
names independently, so there was no need to ask
decided to commit to using her real name, which
her for the last names.
10
was, I thought, a hugely brave and corroborative
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things. So, we had really developed a high degree
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says that, "I'll talk to her,

Q Ms.
I'll talk to her sister. I don't have
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of trust.
But while I was waiting for her to get
12
number. I've never had her number. I just kind
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And I wanted her -- it's important, I
13
of met her through her sister." And Ms.
14
think, for a victim of trauma, to be, to be
14
offered to reach out to
15
comfortable with the process. And I think that
15
A Yes. And that didn't surprise me. None
16
the trust that we had built, and the trust that
16
of this actually surprised me at all. That I had
17
she had in me, meant that she was comfortable with
17
blind-sided her with -- you have to understand,
18
the process up until now. So, I just wanted to
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she had been -- there's a lot of trust involved
19
prepare her. I was planting the seed now, that I
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when trauma victims are speaking to one another,
20
was going to be calling her and I was going to let
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and when you're speaking to a trauma victim.
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her sit with the idea a little bit before I circle
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22
back.
22
who had been allegedly sexually assaulted about
23
their assaults. She had no authority to tell me,
24
but now here I was -- so -- and -- so, here I was,
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in a sense, threatening to work around her and
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MS. McNAMARA: This interview occurred on

December 17, not the 16th.
MS. LOCKE: I said on or around the 16th.
So, she had been told by two other people
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MS. McNAMARA: I just want to make sure

the record is accurate.
for
Q And you ultimately did ask Ms.
last name; is that correct?
A I did.
Q And she refused to give it to you; isn't
that correct?
A Yes.
Q You go on, on this page, at the very
bottom in brackets, you go on to tell Ms.
that you think you found out who
and
are, and Ms.
tells you that it's not them,
but you don't believe her; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Why didn't you believe Ms.
A It just -- I looked at all the information
that I had found. I found their social media
pages. It just seemed to me that -- I can't
remember specifically, but I felt pretty convinced
that these were the right people.
for
or
last name?
A Not that I recall.
Q Why not?
A I was waiting for her to put me in touch
[Page 183]
isn't that correct?
[Page 184]
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contact these people directly, which would not
just reveal to them that she had released their
secret, but also was probably not going to illicit
a positive response from these people when they
were contacted by a stranger to be asked about a
gang rape that they had never told me about.
So, I understood immediately why she
answered so sensitively and why she wanted to be
the go-between.
10
And as a reporter wanting to write about
11
something sensitive, I mean, the best way to
12
approach somebody whose been through a traumatic
13
experience really is to be introduced by somebody
14
that they trust. So, it would have been my
15
preference to reach them through somebody --
16
through an intermediary that they trusted.
17
Q Your preference notwithstanding, do you
18
think you had a journalistic obligation to reach
19
out to
20
identified, to ask them about whether they did, in
21
fact, allege that they were gang raped at Phi Psi
22
before you printed it in Rolling Stone magazine?
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and
who you thought you had

She didn't print their names.
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A Right, we never did print their names. I

felt very secure in my source, Jackie, and in her
credibility, and in what she had told me, which
was that they had confided in her that they had
had these experiences.
Q And it didn't concern you that Jackie was
seeking to control your access to all of these
third-parties?
A She never gave me the impression that she
was trying to control my access. She was trying
to protect the people involved. She was worried
about everybody's feelings involved, and she was
trying to go about things as delicately as
possible.
Towards the bottom of the page, Jackie says, "I
want to see how this plays out with Phi Psi
national here. I was thinking about a way you can
get
story without talking to her, because
she kind of told me to fuck off. But she filed a
report, and I know she did because I was with her
when she filed it. And she filed it with Dean
Eramo over the internet describing her assault."
28th. And I don't remember that night, or I never
heard her come in."
to you that Ms.
men?
6
7
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9

A Yes. I believe -- well, I don't want to
speak out of turn, but, ultimately, I asked the PR
department for a list of statistics that they
received about reports, and I asked them
specifically about -- I don't want to speak out of
turn, but about anonymous reports in order to
follow up on exactly this.
for
last
Q Did you ask Ms.
name?
A I did not. But she did present to me
texts that she had with
trying to convince
her to speak to me.
Q I'm going to direct your attention to the
same exhibit, Plaintiff's Exhibit 387, 4419, your
interview with Ms. Rachel Soltis.
And in particular, on the next page of
your interview with Ms. Soltis, on 4420, you ask
Ms. Soltis what she was like at first, at the
beginning of the year.
And Ms. Soltis, in part, says, towards the
end of her answer, "But then she was raped, gang
raped by six different guys around the second
weekend of the -- the second weekend of school
around -- I want to say around the 26th or the
[Page 187]
was raped by six different
A Yes, that was her recollection of what she

was told, you know, a year or so before that.
Q You go on to ask, at the bottom of the
page, "When she gathered you guys around, what did
10
she say happened?" asking about Jackie and her
11
gang rape, correct?
12
A Yes.
13
Q And Ms. Soltis tells you that these guys
14
forced her to do oral sex. That's what she did at
15
first.
16
17
18
Do you see that?

A Yes.
Q So, it's fair to say that Ms. Soltis told
19
you that the first story that Jackie told was that
20
she was forced to perform oral sex on six men,
21
correct?
22
23
A Yes.
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. That
24
mischaracterizes the, the document.
25
Q And that's the -- that's a very different
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Fair to say that Ms. Soltis communicated
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rape than the rape and the details of which

Ms.
told you on your first interview with
her, that she was vaginally raped by seven men,
correct?
A Well, as Rachel goes on to say in the
course of this same interview, that, over the
course of time -- over the course of a few months,
as Jackie became more comfortable with the, you
know, with the details, that the full story came
out.
Q Well, my question was a little bit
different.
My question was: Ms. Soltis told you that
when she first -- when Jackie first told her
friends the story of rape, she told her friends
that she had been forced to perform oral sex on
six men, correct?
mischaracterizes the very document you're
looking at, the very page you're looking at.
Q That she was forced to do oral sex,
putting the number aside; isn't that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And then Ms. Soltis goes on to say, "But
it wasn't until later on that she told me she was
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raped by, I think, six guys, that they actually

put a broken bottle inside of her," correct?
A Correct.
Q And the first story of oral sex was
different than the story that Jackie told you;
isn't that correct?
A Yes. It was different from the story that
she initially -- the story that she ultimately
told Rachel when she came to terms with her rape
was different than the story that she originally
told Rachel, but was similar to the story that she
told me.
Q Ms. Soltis also tells you that she was
raped by a broken bottle, by someone putting a
broken bottle inside of her.
Ms.
never told you that a broken
bottle was used to rape her; isn't that correct?
A Yes. But I didn't worry about that. I
mean, the -- to me, the compelling thing was that
she remembered that there was a bottle involved.
Q Further down in Plaintiff's Exhibit 387 -A And she's also -- can I also mention
something else? She's not the only person to
volunteer and to corroborate that there were these
elements of the rape that Jackie had told me
1
2
Ms.
MS. McNAMARA: I believe it was "Why did
3
4
5
correct?
A Yes.
you go up to his room," not why didn't you.
Q And then you say, "And then, just
generally be dismissive of, or even ridiculing
it."
8
9
10

A Yes.
Q And Ms. Soltis then tells you, "Yeah,
11
Kathryn Hendley, or Hinkley, yeah, she's -- I've
12
heard that while she apparently is a real -- I
13
don't want to say it, but she kind of brings guys
14
to her room, and Jackie would say she's slept with
15
more than 40 guys. I don't want to slut-shaming
16
but Kathy and Al told Jackie not to tell because
17
it would ruin her reputation."
18
19
20
21
22
23
Did Ms. Soltis communicate that

information to you?
A Yes.
Q And so, Ms.
had already told you
Kathryn's first name, correct?

A Right.
24
Q And now you also had, at least some
25
version, of Ms. Hendley's last name; is that
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about.
So, for example, when I interviewed Annie
Forrest, she volunteered that there was a foreign
object involved. I mean, these were things that
made impressions on people and they, they
volunteered them.
Q If you look further down on Plaintiff's
Exhibit 387, Bates 4421, you ask Ms. Soltis about
how people respond -A I'm sorry, I missed -- which page?
Q It's the same page that we're on, 4421.
MS. McNAMARA: 4421.
Q You ask how people responded to
Ms.
story of gang rape. Sort of middle
of the page, "Jackie told me she got some pretty
weird reactions from other people."
A Yes.
Q And then you ask a follow-up question
where you say, "People saying things like, Why
didn't you go up to his room, what were you
wearing?"
A Yes.
Q And you asked that question of
[Page 191]
[Page 192]
1
2
correct?
A It was an approximation.
Q What steps did you take, upon learning of

Kathryn's last name, or an approximation of her
last name, to look her up?
A Well, as I mentioned before, the route
into the three friends -- it had already been
established to me that Kathryn, in particular, and
Jackie were basically -- had had a falling out,
10
and that Kathryn was not going to be likely to
11
speak with me. Neither was Alex, who had dated
12
Kathryn.
13
The likeliest person into the three
14
friends was Ryan. So, the fact that Ryan had shut
15
me down meant, to me, that this was an unlikely
16
path for me to go down in the first place.
17
I had already felt that I had corroborated
18
much of this with the three friends. It -- I
19
mean, this just -- the fact that Rachel Soltis is
20
adding to it that the characterization is that
21
Kathryn is, you know, as we put it, as sort of a
22
self-described hookup queen, which was something
23
that was already corroborated by Alex, who
24
describes herself the same way, it just added to
25
the idea that I was feeling comfortable that this
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time. I felt it was corroborated, and I felt that
I had already, also, corroborated that
I had many other aspects of the story that I
Jackie had a good recall of people's quotes. I
wanted to nail down.
had done so by calling Emily Renda, I remember, to
run by her a conversation that they had had about
the first time that they met about -- in a coffee
shot, about them being the stick figures in the
room, the statistics about rape. And it turns out
that Jackie had recalled that accurately.
information was corroborated.
Q Do you agree that the way you portrayed

Kathryn Hendley was in an unflattering light?
A In what regard?
Q The quotes that were attributed to
Ms. Hendley in the article.
A She did not come across as being
sympathetic to a rape victim.
10
There was another situation where she
10
11
recalled somebody's quotes accurately. It was, it
11
12
was Dean Eramo's quotes where, after a meeting
12
obligation to allow Ms. Hendley to comment if she
13
that she and Alex had had with Dean Eramo in
13
was going to be portrayed in a negative light?
14
September, Alex confirmed that Jackie had
14
15
accurately remembered Dean Eramo's
15
spoke to my editor about it, and they apparently
16
characterization of having heard, through the
16
had their own discussions about it, and they came
17
grapevine, that the culprits behind her gang rape
17
back to me and told me that they were going to
18
had graduated. And also saying that, between my
18
change the names. And that, since they weren't
19
article and the missing student, that they were
19
identifiable, that there was no need to contact
20
flat out fucked.
20
them.
Q Did you feel like you had a journalistic
A Well, we decided, at the magazine -- I
21
So, these are just two examples of Jackie
21
Q And you agreed with that approach?
22
accurately remembering people, people being
22
A I agreed, and deferred to their expertise.
23
quoted. So, I actually felt secure about the
23
24
three friends. And, at this point in time, which
24
hour and 40 minutes. If we could take a break,
25
was September 19th, I was -- this was now after I
25
that would be good.
MS. McNAMARA: We've been going about an
[Page 194]
[Page 196]
had gone to UVa. I was -- and I was shifting
gears to now cast my reporting net elsewhere.
I felt that this had been corroborated,
MS. LOCKE: Sure.

time is 3:17.
and I was shifting now to prepare for my interview
with the president, try to do my best to nail down
the other two rape victims, and especially, more
than anything, to nail down what was the essential
core of my story, which was about how UVa responds
interviewed President Teresa Sullivan and a lawyer
to sexual assault reports and whether they were in
at UVa, Susan Davis; is that correct?
10
compliance with Title IX.
10
(Recess taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Go back on the record.
The time is 3:35. Beginning of DVD Number 4.
Q Ms. Erdely, there came a time when you
A Yes. And there was somebody else on the
My question was a little bit different. I
11
12
appreciate all of that response. I'm not really
12
Q I'm going to play you an audio from that
13
interested in how you corroborated quotes or
13
interview that begins, for the record, at minute
14
didn't corroborate quotes.
14
21 and 45 seconds.
11
line, as well, I think it was a PR person.
15
My question was simply: What steps did
15
16
you take to locate Kathryn Hendley once you had a
16
"So, another thing I'm hearing from these
17
version of her last name?
17
girls who come in and they say there's been no
18
malice, but like I said, they love Dean Eramo.
19
One of their biggest fears in speaking with me
20
candidly about this is that they don't want to get
18
(Audio recording plays.)
19
Mischaracterizes, and she's answered that.
20
21
A I had already felt that I had taken many
21
her in any kind of trouble. But they've been in
22
steps to try to get in touch with this, with this
22
Dean Eramo's office with all of these options and
23
trio, and I didn't see that there was a
23
feeling so heard -- not hurt but heard and
24
possibility of them cooperating, and I didn't see
24
unburdened, and finally telling their stories and
25
that it was a useful use of my limited reporting
25
so comforted, but also kind of paralyzed from the
You can answer the question.
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lack of guidance, you know, having all of these

options before them, that they often wind up doing
nothing, not filing any complaint at all. And
getting a lot of assurance that that's okay
because that's their choice. You know, whatever
choice they make is the right choice for them.
And they feel perfectly fine with that.
"But I just wondered, could you comment on
that for me? Because I wonder whether that is
actually sort of feeding into the lack of
reports."
(Audio recording stops.)
Q Which women at UVa had come to you and
told you that they felt paralyzed after meeting
with Dean Eramo?
A Well, I don't know that any of them used
the word "paralyzed," but there were women who
described that feeling.
Q Which women?
A There was, let's see, Jackie. Alex
certainly described how confusing the entire
experience was. Although, ultimately, I think she
was satisfied. She had an informal hearing, I
believe. And it's hard to remember now. It's,
it's been a long time.
But, ultimately, they did give me that.
And then when Anthony did send me those
statistics, I don't know that it was clear that
that was coming from Dean Eramo, but he was
following up.
6
7
Q But UVa was responding to questions that

President Sullivan was unable to answer on the
phone, correct?
9
10
11
12
Q After your interview with President
A No. But I understood it to be -- I mean,

it was very consistent with what I now knew about
14
the way schools tried to avoid negative publicity
15
through avoiding publishing their rape statistics,
16
say, on their websites, which was exactly the case
17
that happened at UVa.
18
And Jackie had told me, twice, about the
19
rape school quote, and I found her to be an
20
entirely credible source and, yeah, so --
21

22
23
24
Erdely to Sacha Lecca dated
25
October 1, 2014 Bates stamped
[Page 200]
1
Sullivan, Anthony de Bruyn provided you with some
answers, some follow-up answers, to questions you
had asked during the interview that you -- that
Dean Sullivan -- that President Sullivan and Susan
Davis were not able to answer; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q So you understood that UVa was willing to
provide you information, and even seek information
10
from Dean Eramo, particularly with respect to the
10
11
statistics that you had asked for, correct?
11
12
A I'm not sure that I knew that they got the
12
13
statistics from Dean Eramo. I mean, what I knew
13
14
from -- what I knew about UVa was that they had
14
15
taken -- I'd been asking them for weeks and weeks
15
16
and weeks for all of these statistics. And at
16
17
first, they had told me that I would find them on
17
18
the website, which they were nowhere to be found
18
19
on the website.
19
20
And at last, they sent me some of the
20
21
statistics I was looking for about an hour or two
21
22
before my interview with President Sullivan, which
22
23
was kind of difficult because, you know, then I
23
24
had to figure out how that would square with my
24
25
interview with her.
25
[Page 199]
Q And did you ever try to verify the rape

school quote with UVa?
13
[Page 198]
1
A Yes.

Q It's an e-mail that you sent to Sasha
Lecca.
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q And you sent it on October 1, 2014,
correct?
A Yes.
Q And you write, "Hi Sasha, yes, I'm doing a
story about how rape plays out against the culture
a the University of Virginia. It has turned into
a story like I truly didn't expect, very dark.
Surprise. Where the main narrative is about a
girl who says she was gang raped at a fraternity
and the school has done nothing."
A I did.
Q And did you write the words in the
following paragraph, "The theme will be about the
culture of inaction and silence at UVa, both from
the students who want to ignore sexual assaults
because it spoils the giant party of college, and
also because of out of some demented loyalty to
the institution and its image of perfection. And
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from the administration, who will do anything to
because -- I mean, and I know that UVa is
avoid scandal."
responsive to that because I was forwarded
examples of those kinds of warnings that were sent
to the students throughout the school year when

there were sexual assaults reported.
3
4

A I did. And I was -- when I'm talking
about the administration there, the avoidance of
scandal, I'm talking about the criticism that has
Q If UVa had issued a warning to students
been leveled against it. I think I quote a number
that there had been three gang rapes at Phi Psi,
of people saying this in the article, people like
isn't it fair to say that they would have falsely
Ms. Securo and Wendy Murphy and Daniel Carter, how
accused Phi Psi of three gang rapes?
10
far institutions will go out of their way to avoid
10
11
scandal.
11
question. It's a hypothetical to a fact
12
witness.
12
Q Do you agree that that is, in fact, the
13
theme of "A Rape on Campus" as you've described it
13
14
to Ms. Lecca -- Mr. Lecca?
14
was to not begin an investigation earlier, an
A The theme of the -- I mean, the article is
A I think the feeling of the administration
15
independent investigation earlier. And maybe that
16
ultimately about the idea -- it is about the
16
could've, would've yielded some answers that would
17
culture on campus, but it's ultimately about what
17
have brought them to the point of deciding whether
18
is the campus' -- what is the administration's
18
this warning should have been issued or not.
19
responsibility to students who report their -- who
19
20
report their rapes, and balancing that obligation
20
21
against the obligation to the rest of the campus.
21
15
22
When I wrote this e-mail, October 1st, I
Q My question was a little bit different,

though.
My question was whether, if UVa had issued
22
the warning that you said that they should, and
23
was still drafting the article. It was still in
23
critics say they should, that three gang rapes
24
flux. And as I even mentioned to him, it's turned
24
that had been alleged to have occurred at Phi Psi,
25
into a story like I truly didn't expect. I mean,
25
wouldn't they have falsely accused Phi Psi of
[Page 202]
[Page 204]
it was an article that was in flux right until the
very end.
So, it's certainly a story about silence
three gang rapes?

MS. McNAMARA: And same objection. It's
asking for a hypothetical to a fact witness.

A Yeah, I really, really don't know the
at UVa. It is A story about inaction, in that
this was a story about the fact that there was
answer to that. What I do know is that, this is
never a campus warning issued when I believe that,
what Title IX seems to demand, and this is one of
and the critics agree, it should have been issued.
the things that colleges are really wrestling
And about the culture of the -- and it involved
with.
the culture of the students who often dismissed
Q Isn't that what Rolling Stone, and you
10
sexual assault.
10
did, accuse Phi Psi of three gang rapes that
11
Q What was the warning that UVa should have

issued?
11
didn't happen?
12
13
A Well, it was the opinion of the experts
12
13

A I was relating Jackie's version of events.
14
that I consulted, Laura Dunn, Daniel Carter, and
14
15
Johns Hopkins University was under Title IX
15
I believed them when we wrote it, and when it went
16
investigation for precisely this; that if the
16
to press. But I characterized her experience from
17
university believed that there were allegations of
17
her point of view. And, and, and, that was my and
18
gang rape that took place at a fraternity, which
18
Rolling Stone's take on it, that it was her
19
they did, that there should have been some kind of
19
perspective.
20
warning issued to the rest of the campus in order
20
21
to protect people who might visit that location.
21

22
(E-mail from Sean Woods to Jodi
23
Title IX, it's part of the administration's
23
Peckman, Joe Hutchinson and
24
responsibility, to warn the campus if there is
24
Sacha Lecca dated October 15,
25
some kind of safety event. And I know that
25
2014 Bates stamped RS002256
22
And we know that -- I mean, it's part of
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Ms. Dunn's quote in "A Rape on Campus," that you
were accusing Dean Eramo of pretending that she
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 306 is your first
Is it fair to say that by including
draft of "A Rape on Campus" that you forwarded to
was on Jackie's side when, in actuality, she was
Mr. Woods on October the 11th. If you could just
discouraging and silencing Jackie from reporting?
flip through it and confirm that this is, in fact,
your first draft.

A Yes.
10
Bates 2278. In particular, the middle of the
10
I would like to think -- and especially
11
page, it says, "FOUR: Jackie reports, gets the
11
from the characterizations that the students have
12
Eramo/UVa treatment."
12
given me -- that she authentically cares about
13
them and wants what's best for them. I mean, and
What was the "Eramo treatment" that you
13
A I have no idea what Dean Eramo's

motivations are. I can't read her mind.
14
were referring to in your first draft of the
14
you're sort of picking and choosing the things
15
article that Jackie received?
15
that you're taking out of Laura Dunn's quote.

She's saying, schools are assigning people to
16
A Well, this was just my shorthand. You
16
17
know, I've got a slug at the beginning of every
17
victims who are, you say, pretending, but she
18
single one of these sections just to kind of
18
says, or even thinking they're on the victim's
19
summarize what happens.
19
side.
So, when she reported to Eramo, the
20
I mean, I think that -- I think that
20
21
treatment that she received was that she was
21
having somebody who authentically cares about the
22
received in a warm, but professional manner.
22
students is not necessarily some nefarious thing
23
Eramo didn't seem shocked. She was neutral, which
23
that is meant to discourage the students, even if
24
is what I would expect of somebody in that
24
it has the net effect of the students deciding
25
position. And then she presented Jackie with all
25
that they're not going to do anything.
[Page 206]
[Page 208]
So, having the -- I'm not sure that the
of the various options; she could report to
police, she could have a formal hearing internally
motivation is necessarily to discourage it, but
at the university, she could have an informal
the end effect could certainly be. And that was
hearing at the university, or she could do
the conclusion that I ultimately came to, was
nothing. And that's, that's exactly what she --
that, was that these students who were given so
that was the reception that she got.
much love and victim choice, often chose to do
I think, also, there was -- if you could
nothing as a result.
just give me a moment. And, in addition, there
I'll often -- I'll also mention that this
was a follow-up note from Eramo warmly thanking
was -- this was a concept that was reinforced to
10
her for sharing, and telling her that, if she
10
me when I interviewed Liz Securo who talked about
11
wanted to file a report, she would be there for
11
how, when she was a student, there was a dean
12
her.
12
there, Dean Todd I think was her name, who
13
13
actually reminded her very much of Dean Eramo, who
14
Q I want to direct your attention to Bates

2281 in Plaintiff's Exhibit 306. In particular,
14
was -- Dean Todd was Liz Securo's favorite person
15
the bottom of the page, the quote from Laura Dunn
15
on campus and she made her feel so much better and
16
which says, "This is a trend I'm seeing on many
16
she was so warm and wonderful and caring. And,
17
campuses. It's very alarming," says Laura Dunn of
17
and it was -- and it was Liz's perspective that,
18
the advocacy group, Serve Justice. Quote, Schools
18
that the existence of people like this on campus
19
are assigning people to victims who are
19
was actually, on purpose or not, I can't remember,
20
pretending, or even thinking, they're on the
20
but inhibiting sexual assault reports.
21
victim's side when they're actually discouraging
21
22
and silencing them. It's a harsh critique, but
22
A I don't -- I mean, I, I share the view
23
it's true. Advocates, who survivors love, are
23
that, that these victims feeling so comfortable
24
part of the system that is hiding and failing to
24
and not being encouraged to make any particular
25
address sexual violence.
25
choice has the effect of them not doing anything.
[Page 207]
And that's a view that you share?
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Not that they are -- not that that is --
it and he passes it up the chain to Will, and Will
not that that is necessarily the intention of the
makes his comments and he passes it back down the
way that it's set up, but that is the effect.
chain. So, usually before I go ahead and make
more changes or more reporting, I make sure to
find out what it is that Will wants so I don't
4
5

have to make another round of calls, you know, to
Erdely to Sean Woods dated
accommodate his requests.

as Plaintiff's Exhibit 66. These are text
10
10
messages between you and Alex Pinkleton.
11
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 423 is an e-mail that
11
(Text messages between Sabrina
12
Mr. Woods has already testified was. At the
12
Rubin Erdely and Alex Pinkleton
13
bottom, you see on October 25th at 1:07, he
13
Bates stamped RS014307 through
14
testifies, is his response to reading your first
14
14333 was referenced as
15
draft of the article when he writes a few notes,
15
16
word choices, made some cuts, et cetera. Piece is
16
Q Do you recognize them as such?
17
great.
17
A Yes.
18
Do you have any reason to dispute that
18
Q On the very first page of Plaintiff's
19
this is what Mr. Woods communicated to you after
19
Exhibit 66, Alex texts you, "I'm talking to Jackie
20
he reviewed your first draft?
20
right now and she's telling me she 100 percent
21
doesn't want her name in the article."
21
22
23
24
25
A Do I have any reason to dispute it, did

you say?
22
Q Yes.
A Yes.
A No.
24
Q On the following page --
Q Mr. Woods communicates to you, "I worry we
25
A And I see, by the way, that, immediately
[Page 210]
[Page 212]
can't confirm the two girls coming to Jackie and
alleging gang rape at the same frat. Let's
discuss on Monday a.m."
Do you see that?
4
5
A Yes.
Q And then you respond, "I have the same

worry. I wish I had better sourcing for a lot of
the Jackie stuff. A lot right now is resting in
Jackie's say-so, including the entire lead."
10
11
12
Did you say those words -- did you write
7
9
10
11
those words to Mr. Woods?

A I wrote those words, but that is shorthand
12
13
for -- I mean, Sean had knew how much I had done
13
14
to substantiate the Jackie stuff, quote-unquote.
14
15
So, he knows that not everything was resting on
15
16
Jackie's say-so.
16
17
18
Q My question was just a simple one.

Did you write those words to Mr. Woods?
19
A Oh, I did.
19
17
18
20
21
Q At the end of that e-mail, you say, "Let's

talk tomorrow. I want to double check what Will
22
wants before I make those other calls."
22
20
23
24
25
Do you see that?
23
What are you referring to there, what Will
21
23
24
wants?
A Whenever I hand in an article, Sean reads
[Page 211]
25
underneath, I say, "I don't know why she changed

her mind, but whatever she decides is fine."
Q On the following page, ending in Bates
308, Ms. Pinkleton tells you, "I don't think
calling Jackie is a good idea because she is
thinking about pulling out entirely."
Do you see that?
A Yes. I was very surprised by that because
I had just talked to Jackie and she was very
enthusiastic about being in the article.
Q Ms. Pinkleton communicates, "She's pretty
overwhelmed with the idea of
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q And this comes after the time in which you
had asked Jackie to identify
last name; is
that correct?
A Yes.
Q You respond, if you turn to the next page,
309, "But Jackie needs to know she's an essential
part of this article. We'll figure out a way for
her that's comfortable for her. I'll need to talk
to her by phone tomorrow. If need be, I can come
down so we can talk it over in person."
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A Yes.
Q If you see, at the very bottom of that

page, it goes on to the next day, Friday,
October 24th.
Do you see that?
5
6
A Yes.
Q And then on the following page, on Bates

310, Alex texts you that she's baking with Jackie
and that Ms. Pinkleton's agenda is to make sure
10
that Jackie is okay.

Is that right?
11
12
A Her agenda is to make sure she's okay, but
13
that she is unbiased towards wanting the article,
14
yes.
15
16
Q And then you respond, on Bates 311, "Okay,

great. Thank you, Alex. For what its worth, I
17
think Jackie is a strong person. The fact that
18
we've come this far is a testament to her power.
19
I e-mailed her something to this effect this
20
morning."
And then it goes on to the next page. "I
21
22
think Jackie is readier to tell her story than she
23
realizes, but she's being thrown off by the
24
naysayers around her, which is part of the
25
problematic culture that needs to be brought to
1
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7
8
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wrote those words?

A Well, I knew that she was feeling -- I
knew she was in hiding from me and she was
feeling -- I think it was Alex's characterization,
that she was feeling depressed.
I don't see it in here, actually. I was
concerned -- in the absence of Jackie talking to
me, I didn't know what to think.
Q You also write to Mr. Lecca, "She went
through a phase recently where she wasn't
returning my calls and I had to go to Virginia to
make sure she was still on board."
Is it true that you went to
Charlottesville to sure-up Jackie's involvement in
the article?
A No. This is just -- this is me just
summarizing the, you know, Jackie, through the
prism of where I was standing right then.
I went to Virginia with no idea whether
she was going to be in the article or not. I went
to Virginia with plans to meet with Emily, with
Alex, and with Nicole Eramo.
Q Then why did you communicate with
Mr. Lecca that you had to go to Virginia to make
sure she was still on board?
[Page 214]
[Page 216]
A I think maybe it was just a poor choice of
light. As for agendas, mine has only ever been to
get to the whole truth out there, but you know
words. What I meant to say was that, it wasn't
that."
until I went to Virginia did I know that she was
on board.
At this point, we already established that
4
5
you believed that Ms.
had PTSD, correct?
You continue, "So, I'm trying to be as
accommodating as possible. Which means that when
yes.
she insisted on no photos, I didn't put up much of

a fight. Sorry."
A I believe that she had symptoms of PTSD,
Is it true that you were trying to be as
accommodating as possible of Ms.
10
10
11
Erdely to Sacha Lecca dated
11
12
12
was trying to apologize to Sasha for not
13
13
putting -- I always try my best to help Sasha come
14
14
up with photos, and I felt badly that I wasn't
15
Exhibit 505.)
15
going to be more helpful. So, I was just trying
16
to explain why I hadn't put any pressure on her to
17
Q We'll come back to this in a couple of

minutes. Plaintiff's Exhibit 505 is another
17
pose for photos. It wasn't a matter of being
18
e-mail chain between you and Mr. Lecca. And if
18
accommodating, it was just a matter of trying to
19
you direct your attention to the second page,
19
put as little pressure on her about things that
20
Bates 960, you write to Mr. Lecca, "Yeah,
20
didn't matter as much because I wanted to focus on
21
unfortunately, I would say Jackie is not in great
21
the things that were most important.
22
mental shape right now and won't be for a long
22
23
while."
23
312, the text message we just read where you say,
24
"I think Jackie is readier to tell her story than
25
she realizes."
16
24
25
Did you believe that Jackie was not in

great mental shape right now, at the time you
[Page 215]
A I wouldn't say -- accommodating is -- I
Back on Plaintiff's Exhibit 66, on Bates
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How did you know Jackie was readier to

tell her story than Jackie realized?
A I was maybe being a little poetic-sounding
there. But I think that she was actually quite
ready -- I felt that she was quite ready to tell
her story. She was -- from the moment that I
reached out to her, she was, she was ready to tell
her story, and she shared it in so much generous
detail. We spent hours and hours together on the
phone and e-mailing and texting and in person.
And she was also telling it despite the fact that
the culture around her was discouraging her from
coming forward.
So, that told me -- including, she told
me, her family was discouraging her from coming
forward. So, that told me that she really -- and
she actually told me that she felt that it was
very important for this to come out.
To me, it seemed like she had no agenda,
no motivation, there was no personal gain for her.
Only that she wanted to -- it was important for
her to tell the truth and make some change.
The fact that she was actually so
persistent was what told me that she seemed really
ready to tell this story.
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October 28th with Alex that begins on 316. But I

want to -- that's where the date is, but I just
want to direct your attention to a few pages later
to 319.
And Alex asks you, "Have you found out
what has to be said if
last name isn't
used?"
A Yes.
Q And you respond, "Yes. We'd have to say
she refused to disclose his name, and so we
couldn't follow up. Not in those words, but
that's the sentiment. Unfortunately, it would
diminish her credibility, so I really want to
avoid that."
Did you text that to Ms. Pinkleton?
A I did. But that last sentence was just me
trying to push her to try to push Jackie further.
I was hoping to get
name.
Q Fair to say that, in "A Rape on Campus,"
you didn't ultimately disclose that Jackie had
refused to provide
last name, did you?
A Well, I did actually write a paragraph
that -- to appear in the article, but it never
made it into the final article.
[Page 218]
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Q You're not a counselor, are you,

Ms. Erdely?
A No.
Q Do you have any medical training?
A No.
Q You go on to say, "Also, I'm up for
discussing whether she wants to discuss changing
her name, et cetera, but I need to be clear about
this. There's no pulling the plug at this point.
The article is moving forward, and I think it's
important that Jackie stay involved."
Did you type those words?
A I did.
Q And then -A Unfortunately, I think that my words
here -- even though I said "I need to be clear
here," I think I was the opposite of clear.
What I was trying to say was that this
article about the University of Virginia was
moving forward, and I wanted Jackie to be -especially because I knew that this seemed
important to Jackie, I wanted Jackie to be in the
article.
Q If you can flip forward, you'll see that
you have an additional text exchange on
[Page 219]
[Page 220]
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Q You wanted to avoid the possibility of
diminishing Jackie's credibility by publishing in
an article that Jackie had refused to disclose her
attacker's last name, correct?
5
6
MR. CHEW: Objection. Lack of foundation.

She said the opposite.
A As I said, I actually wrote a paragraph
saying exactly that, that she was so traumatized
that she didn't want to share her attacker's name.
10
That paragraph was intended to be in the article.
11
Q Who cut it?
12
A I have no knowledge of that.
13
Q And Ms.
14
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17
never actually gave you
last name before the publication of the

article; isn't that correct?
A That's correct.
Q When did you discover that the paragraph
18
that -- did you discover it before publication of
19
the article, that that paragraph that you were
20
describing that described the way Jackie didn't
21
want to disclose her [sic] name, did you discover
22
that that had been cut from the article before
23
publication?
24
A I'm having trouble remembering. You know,
25
during that week of production, there were so many
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readers over."
things that were being changed, were coming out,
were going in, I don't remember, I'm sorry.
Q Did you ever ask to have that paragraph

reinserted into the article?
3
4
you know, sort of smooth everything over. Things
Did you text that to Ms. Pinkleton?

A I did. I was trying to be reassuring and,
had been very difficult between me, Alex, Jackie,
foundation.
and Sara. So, I was -- I was just being very
A Yeah, I don't -- as I said, I don't even
conciliatory.
I'm going to hand you what's been mark z
remember whether I noticed that the paragraph was
gone that week before it went to publication.
10
10
11
Q But, in one of the drafts, you included

this paragraph because you thought it was
11
12
important to tell readers that Jackie had not
12
13
identified
13
14
last name?
A Yeah. I thought it was -- I thought it
14
Plaintiff's Exhibit 415 is an e-mail
15
was sort of standard. And I also thought that it
15
16
helped to shed light on her level of trauma that
16
between you and Mr. Woods. You e-mail Mr. Woods
17
she -- that she couldn't even bring herself to
17
on October 23rd at 11:06 p.m.
18
give me his name.
18
19
19
20
Q I want to direct your attention to the

same, the same exhibit we've been looking at,
21
Plaintiff's Exhibit 66, but Bates 321.
21
apparently in full freak out mode right now. Her
22
friend Alex texted to say that Jackie is right now
23
saying she wants her name out of the piece and is
24
thinking of pulling out entirely. Neither girl
25
will answer my call."
22
23
Ms. Pinkleton texts you, "Oh, yeah, I

worded it wrong. Yeah, I don't know --"
(Cell phone disturbance.)
24
25
MR. CHEW: Reason 400 to never go to a
20

A Yes.
Q
And you write, "Fuck. Jackie is
[Page 222]
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Blackberry. Sorry about that.
Did you write those words to Mr. Woods?
MS. LOCKE: Could we go off the record?
time is 4:09.
(Recess taken.)
5
6
[Page 224]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
A Yes.
Q
And you communicate to Mr. Woods, "But you
brought up contacting that guy and she fell
apart," correct?
A Yes.
And you communicate to Mr. Woods, "In
The time is 4:09.
Q Ms. Pinkleton texted you, "Yeah, I don't
fact, Sara called me this afternoon having found
out about some of the newer material I discovered
10
Jackie isn't going to give it up. She's okay with
10
and seemed furious with me about it. She wanted
11
you finding it out, not from her, though. The
11
to give me the dean's point of view."
12
problem is trying to figure that out."
12
13
know of -- if there's another way to get it, but
And you respond, "Argh, this is killing
13
Did you communicate this to Mr. Woods?

A Yes.
And you write to Mr. Woods, "I guess I'll
14
me," correct?
14
15
A Yes.
15
wait and see how things shake out in the morning,
16
Q Then, later, if you turn to Bates 329 in
16
but I suspect I may need to go back to
17
Plaintiff's Exhibit 66, Ms. Pinkleton asks you,
17
Charlottesville to hash things out with Jackie
18
"Did you and Jackie discuss
18
face-to-face. Fuck."
19
Do you see that?
19
A Yes.
20
A Yes.
21
Q And you responded, "Yes. Since it's
21
22
causing her so much distress, I'm just letting
22
A Yes.
23
that go. But we'll have to mention it in the
23
24
article. But I'm presenting it as insight into
24
Sara -- I take that to be Sara Surface; is that
25
how traumatized she is, so hopefully that will win
25
correct?
20
[Page 223]
Mr. Woods responds, "Oy"; is that correct?

What was the dean's point of view that
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A Yes.
She enlisted -- because she had been
Q What was the dean's point of view that
assured by the administration that a repeat
Sara Surface was trying to communicate to you?
offender would be expelled, she took great pains
A I am almost positive that I remember, but
to enlist these other people to testify at her
trial, or to submit written affidavits about their
experiences with him, under the impression that,
if he was found guilty, he would be expelled as a
repeat offender.
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I'd like to look at my notes.

Q They're at Bates 4491.
MS. McNAMARA: 4491.
A Okay, yes, I thought so.
So, she was actually -- so, while Stacy's
So, Sara was upset because I, I was
10
writing about -- I found out more information
10
appeal was pending talking about exactly this
11
about the sexual misconduct hearing that had been
11
issue where Stacy was saying that this was a
12
had on behalf of a student that we call Stacy.
12
semantic game that had been played with her, then
13
And Stacy was very unhappy with her proceedings.
13
Dean Eramo appeared on W-UVa saying that they had
14
And so, Sara wanted to call to tell me why -- what
14
never had a case of a repeat offender.
15
had happened to Stacy was right and just, and why
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16
Stacy was wrong.
16
Why would you assume that it was an attempt by
17
Dean Eramo to play semantic games?
17
Q And during your conversation with
Q Why not believe Ms. Surface's explanation?
A Because I think that people -- people
18
Ms. Surface, you tell Ms. Surface that the UVa
18
19
administration is being disingenuous because Dean
19
should say what they mean to say. And if what she
20
Eramo said, in a student media interview, that
20
meant to say was that if somebody is convicted of
21
they never had a case of a repeat offender,
21
individual multiple rapes, then they would be
22
correct?
22
expelled, then they should -- then they should say

that.
23
A That's correct.
23
24
Q And Ms. Surface explains that that's not
24
25
what Dean Eramo meant -- explains that what Dean
25
Instead, people were led to believe, on

the campus -- it was the widely held belief that
[Page 226]
[Page 228]
Eramo meant was that they've never had reports by
if somebody had -- like in Stacy's case, if you
multiple victims.
had multiple allegations against you, you didn't
have to be individually prosecuted for each one of
them before you were expelled.
3
4
Do you see that?

A Yes.
Q And you tell Ms. Surface, "If she meant to

say that," meaning Dean Eramo, "than she should
5
6
clear the record and, instead, she decided to
have said that. Believe me, she knew what she was
muddy the record. What her motivation was -- I
saying. That's something university has been
mean, maybe it was wrong of me to guess what her
doing quite a bit of, hiding behind semantic
motivation was here. But it was certainly some
This was actually Dean Eramo's chance to
10
games, and then pretending the whole thing was a
10
kind of semantic game, or at least compressing it
11
misunderstanding. I know this is a hard for you
11
in such a way that it was actually very
12
to hear because you feel loyalty."
12
misleading.
13

13
14
Did you say that to Ms. Surface?

A Yes. I was trying to explain to her -- I
14
15
mean, if you've seen the deleted UVa video, at the
15
16
time, there was only a snippet that was available,
16
Erdely to Jacqueline dated
17
but it showed Dean Eramo explaining to a reporter
17
18
that, that they had never had a case of a repeat
18
RESPJ00000232 was referenced as
19
offender and I believe she also said that, if
19
20
there was, he would be expelled.
20
21
Q Is this is an e-mail that you sent Jackie

on October 24th at 10:16 a.m.?
22
Stacy's case was under appeal. Stacy, of course,
22
A Okay.
23
being a person felt that her attacker had -- there
23
24
were two other allegations against him, which
24
25
would qualify him as a repeat offender.
25
21
And, in fact, at that exact same time,
[Page 227]
Q Was that an e-mail that you sent to

Ms.
A Yes.
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Q I'm going to play you an audio, it's

Plaintiff's Exhibit 188.
"Jackie, it's Sabrina. What's going on?
I just got some alarming e-mails from -- I mean,
texts from Alex. We need to talk, so call me.
Okay."
Q Is that a voicemail you left for
Ms.
A Yes.
lawyers say that that
Q Ms.
voicemail was left on her phone on October 23rd.
Do you have any reason to dispute that you
left that voicemail on October 23rd?
A No, no reason.
Q I'm going to play you another voicemail,
"Hi, Jackie, it's Sabrina from Rolling
Stone. It's Monday. And I know you haven't been
returning my calls or my texts, but we really need
to talk. Please, please, call me. I understand
you're scared, but we are in the home stretch with
this article and I need to talk to you. I handed
could direct your attention back to Plaintiff's
Exhibit 505, it's the e-mail between you and
Mr. Lecca.
I want to direct your attention to the
very top of the first page of Exhibit 505, you
write to Mr. Lecca, "Jackie is right now not
communicating with me. In part, because some One
Less members, who work closely with the
administration, have been critical of her
10
cooperation with the story. So I'm thinking, at
11
this point, we should work under the assumption
12
that neither Jackie, nor One Less, will be
13
available for photographing."
14
15
16
Did you write those words to Mr. Lecca?

A Yes.
Q Is it fair to say that, as of October 24th
17
and your voicemail on November the 3rd, that you
18
had not removed Jackie's gang rape as the lead of
19
your story?
20
21
22
A I was still optimistic that Jackie was

going to participate.
Q And that you were going to move forward
23
with the story regardless of whether Jackie was
24
going to call you back; is that fair?
25
A No, no. Well, I was going -- we were
[Page 230]
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in my final draft on Friday and we're moving into

the production process now. And if all goes
according to plan, this article is going to be
shipping to the printer in less than two weeks and
I really, really would like for you to be included
in this process. So, we need to talk about that.
We need to talk about what the process looks like
in the next couple of weeks, and how I'd like for
you to be involved. So please, please call me
back.
. Thank you, Jackie. I hope
to speak to you soon. Buh-bye."
Q Is that a voicemail you left for
Ms.
A Yes.
lawyers say that voicemail
Q Ms.
was left on November the 3rd, 2014.
Do you have any reason to dispute that
that was the date that you left that voicemail?
A No reason.
Q In the final draft of the article that you
submitted, it included Jackie's gang rape as the
lead, correct?
A Yes.
Q I'm going to hand you -- actually, if you
[Page 231]
[Page 232]
1
going to move forward with the story about UVa
whether Jackie was going to participate or not.
If Jackie was not going to participate,
then we would -- we would do something else with
her story. I mean -- and that would depend on --
I would need to have a conversation with her to
figure out what her role would be, if she wanted
to be removed entirely, if she wanted to be
relegated to a smaller role. That's happened with
10
11
other stories in the past.

Q Did you ever communicate to Ms.
12
that it was okay for her to pull out of the story
13
entirely, around this time when she was in this
14
full freak out mode and threatening to pull out of
15
the story?
16
A Not during that time. I mean, we
17
discussed it when I first -- when I came to the
18
UVa campus to discuss whether she was going to
19
participate at all. I mean, she was aware it was
20
entirely up to her whether she was going to
21
participate.
22
Q In your e-mail to Mr. Lecca, you don't say
23
that you should hold off on finding photographs
24
because you may remove Ms.
25
the article, correct?
entirely from
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A Well, we're just talking about the artwork
for the -- we're just talking about photographs.
So, I'm telling him that the article that I'm
writing about UVa -- for this article we're
writing about UVa -- we might want to work under
the assumption that Jackie and One Less may not be
participating.
8
9

8
9
10
(Calls List Bates stamped
10
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13
Exhibit 67.)
13
14
Q This is what I was referring to earlier in
14
15
the day that appears to be a smaller reporting
15
16
file, but why don't I ask you. If you could flip
16
17
through and tell me what Plaintiff's Exhibit 67
17
18
is.
18
19
A So, this is a file that I typically call
19
20
my Calls List. And it becomes -- it's a working
20
21
document while I'm working on an article where I
21
22
compile lists of people that I've talked to,
22
23
reached out to, want to reach out to, random
23
24
notes. It kind of becomes a little bit of a
24
25
dumping ground for a lot -- some thoughts that I
25
for messages from

messages from
e-mails, or paystubs, correct?
A Yes.
Q And you also ask to speak with
and Jackie's mom, correct?
A Yes.
Q Fair to say that you never spoke with
or Jackie's mom?
A She sent me a text from
but I
never spoke with her. Or, despite all of my many,
many, many efforts, and many messages, I never
spoke with her mother.
Q Below -- below, sort of the bottom of the
page, you have a bolded text that says, "Jackie's
mom."
Are these voicemail notes -- notes from
voicemails that you left for Jackie's mother?
A This, this one -- well, let's see. This
first one is, "I'm looking forward to speaking to
you, please give me a call." I must have said
something to that effect, and I was, I guess,
typing along while I said it.
This one I most certainly said. This is
when Jackie, out of desperation, I told Jackie
that I was -- I wanted to speak with her mother,
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have, sometimes.
Q If you could direct your attention on
Plaintiff's Exhibit 67 to Bates ending in 338. At
the very bottom, you write, "Still need to speak
with Jackie.
and
medical reports. Mom, Kathryn, Alex."
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q Fair to say that you did none of those
things except speak with Jackie?
A That was, I guess, at the very end of my
reporting process. This was -- I had a long,
long, long laundry list of things that I had
wanted from Jackie. And every time I got
something, I would delete it from the list.
So, these were the things that were -some of the things that were left on the list.
Q That you had not completed, correct?
A Correct. I mean, in the end, she wound up
sending me texts from
and
The
medical reports, I actually didn't need after all.
Although, she sent me the medical reports that I
wanted, which were about her mental health
counseling. But yes.
Q On the next page ending in 339, you ask
[Page 235]
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and she wasn't calling me back. And Jackie was
saying, well, what if -- you know, my mother's
coming to visit campus, what if you came down to
meet her there. So I called Jackie's mother and I
left a voicemail suggesting that perhaps we do
that, and why don't we talk by phone before I come
down and do that so we can talk through what your
concerns might be.
9
10
Q In the phone numbers that Jackie provided

for you for her mom, do you recall if the
11
voicemail actually identified Ms.
12
Ms.
13
voicemail of, "You have reached the voice mail
14
of," fill in the blank?
15
as
or whether it was a more generic
A No, I do distinctly remember that the
16
message, it was a woman's voice and she said --
17
she said her name was
18
19
Q And if you turn over to Bates ending 340,

is this a voicemail at the very top, in your
20
brackets, that you left for
21
A No. These were all just thoughts that I
22
had. Sometimes I jot them down for notes, if I
23
were going to be speaking to somebody, so that I
24
just have something to refer to. These are all
25
things that I had jotted down. These were
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basically interview notes for when I expected I

would finally get her on the phone.
Q And these were, at the bottom of the page,
questions that you were going to ask Ms.
should you get the chance to interview her?
A Yes.
Q And that continues over onto page 341, and
the very top part of 342?
A Yes.
ending in 344, the bottom of the page.
A Uh-huh.
Q It appears that you have a web link to a
Facebook profile for a
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q Was that independent research you were
doing on Jackie's mom?
A Yes, it was.
Q At the very bottom of the page, you say,
"Note: Her profile says she went to Providence
College, not Brown, as Jackie told me."
Did you discover, from Ms.
Facebook profile page, that she actually
went to Providence College, not Brown as Jackie
Are these individuals that you spoke with
1
2
after the article was published?
THE WITNESS: Am I -MS. McNAMARA: You can -- this comes under
4
5
the cloak of the internal investigation, and so
she can speak to communications she had with
third-parties. But as to anything about how
that got set in motion, what was being done,
her conclusions from it, is under the cloak of
10
the internal investigation and is privileged as
11
work product.
12
13
I just asked if these were people that you
spoke with after the article was published.

MS. McNAMARA: I know, but she expressed
14
15
some concern about the answer.
16
A I just want to double check. I don't want
17
to be in violation of any kind of privilege.

Yes.
18
Who is Alicia
19
20
A She is, as I put here, one of -- one of
21
22
Jackie's first year roommates.

Q
What did you and Ms.
A I would need to -- okay. So, I guess I
24
have to recall this -- you don't have those notes
25
for me to look at, I take it?
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told you?
A Yes.
Q Did that raise a red flag for you?
A I wouldn't call it a red flag, but I made
a note of it because it was the only inconsistency
that I ever noticed of Jackie's. So, I made a
note thinking that I would ask
about it
when I got her on the phone.
Q Did you ever ask Jackie about why she told
you her mother went to Brown when, in fact, she
went to Providence College?
A No. I mean, given all the other things
that I wanted to get from Jackie, it just didn't
seem to be all that important. It seemed to me it
was, more likely than not, it was just a
misunderstanding.
You know, maybe her mother had taken
classes at Brown. Brown and Providence, they're
in the same place. It just didn't seem like
something that was -- you know, given all the
other things that I wanted to get from Jackie, it
just didn't seem like a priority.
354. The top of the page, it says, "Post Article
Spoke."
[Page 239]
speak about?
23
[Page 240]
1
MS. McNAMARA: No.
A She verified that she was -- she was the
other person that Jackie told about her rape, her
freshman year, along with Rachel Soltis. And she
verified that Jackie's demeanor had changed during
her first semester. That she had been very happy
go lucky, and then became very depressed. And
that she confessed to the two of them, Alicia and
Rachel, that she had been orally assaulted by a
10
number of men. I can't remember what number it
11
was that Alicia had said, but it was, it was --
12
you know, it was somewhere up there. It was, it
13
was, it was -- it was the same account that Rachel
14
Soltis gave me.
15
16
Q Did you also speak with the

Charlottesville police department, Detective Via
17
and Sergeant Harris?
18
19
20
21
A I did.
Q And tell me, as best you can remember,
everything about that conversation.
A Well, they initially contacted me as a
22
part of their investigation. But while I had them
23
on the phone, I discovered that Detective V told
24
me -- I'm sorry, I just --
25
MS. McNAMARA: Do you want to take a
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break?
A He asked me when I had started reporting
THE WITNESS: No, I'm okay, sorry.
on the article, and both he and Sergeant Harris
A Detective V told me -- I was surprised to
seemed surprised that I had only come to UVa -- or
find out that Detective V had had met Jackie
I had started reporting on UVa in July because,
before because he had said that he had met with
for some reason, they were under the impression
her around the time of the bottle incident hoping
that I had started in -- much earlier in the year,
to take her sexual assault report.
I believe in January.
Q What else did they tell you about Jackie

and their investigation into Jackie's sexual
8
9
10
Q What else did Detective V and Sergeant

Harris reveal to you in that conversation?
A That they interviewed everybody that they
9
10
assault?
11
could think of so far, and that their
11
12
investigation into -- without Jackie's
12
said that they were -- they said that they were
13
cooperation, they were not making any progress in
13
under a lot of pressure to, to, to solve the case,
14
solving her sexual assault.
14
or to bring the case to a close. And they had
15
interviewed everybody they could think of -- no,

were in the process of interviewing everybody they
15
Q Is there anything else that you can recall
A Only what I told you already. That they
16
of your conversation with Detective V and Sergeant
16
17
Harris?
17
could think of, which is why they called me,
18
A No.
18
because they weren't sure what I could add to it,
19
Q Do you know why the detectives didn't get
19
but they figured they would just try.
20
a sexual assault report when he met with Jackie in
20
21
the spring of 2014?
21
Q Did you cooperate with the police in

answering their questions?
22
A I only recall that Detective Via said that
22
23
she didn't want to move forward with it. If there
23
24
was anything else, I'd have to look at my notes.
24
25
Q Why do these questions upset you?
25
A Yes, fully.
Q Did you assert any sort of shield
privilege?
A No.
[Page 242]
[Page 244]
I hand you what's been marked as
A Because, because it just -- it brings me
back to that time, the time after I realized, you
Plaintiff's Exhibit 283. Plaintiff's Exhibit 283
know, I had full faith in Jackie and in her story.
is an e-mail exchange between you and Elisabeth
And discovering that, that she had misled me, or
Garber-Paul.
had omitted information, it was, it was, it was
(E-mail from Elisabeth
just devastating.
Garber-Paul to Sabrina Rubin
Erdely dated November 5, 2014
And by the time I spoke with the
detectives, it was already, you know, a few days
later. But with each person that I spoke to,
13608 was referenced as

10
every time they revealed something that added to
10
11
the sense of my realizing that I had been misled,
11
12
it, it was -- it was just a shock.
12
A Yes.
13
MS. McNAMARA: Do you want to take a
13
Do you recognize it as such?

And if I can direct your attention to
14
break?
14
Bates 607, you respond to an e-mail with
15
Q Do you need to take a break?
15
Ms. Garber-Paul where she communicates to you that
16
THE WITNESS: Do you mind?
16
she talked to Jackie for about two hours.
17
MS. McNAMARA: No, it's fine.
17
18
18
19
20
time is 4:36.
19
(Recess taken.)
Do you see that?

A Yes.
Q
And you wrote, "Fantastic. I'm glad to
20
hear it went well. Thanks for letting me know and
21
letting her," in all caps, "know we'll be
22
record. The time is 4:49. It's the beginning
22
accommodating of her, which seems crucial towards
23
of DVD Number 5.
23
getting her through this process."
24
Q Ms. Erdely, tell me what else you remember
24
21
25
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We'll go back on the
about your conversation with Detective Via.
[Page 243]
25

A Yes.
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You can set that aside.
way is, actually -- is overlooked. So, it depends
A Again, I was just -- I was only asking
on what you mean by overlooked.
that we -- I mean, I knew that Liz -- Liz is a
very kind person. I was only asking that she
terms of their -- they're attended to for their
continue to show kindness to somebody who had been
mental health. They're given all kinds of
through a trauma.
accommodations in terms of support groups.
7
8
I'm going to hand you what's been marked
I mean, their needs are attended to in
But in terms of actually resolving their
cases, that is very rarely done and that was

upheld through the statistics that the PR office
(E-mail from Melissa Bruno Bates
10
stamped RS008128 through 8129
10
11
11
12
Exhibit 48.)
12
"The article's written by contributing editor
Plaintiff's Exhibit 48 is a promotional
gave me.
Q The promotional e-mail goes on to say,
13
Sabrina Rubin Erdely. Erdely sheds light on UVa's
14
e-mail that Rolling Stone sent out regarding "A
14
long history of basically letting sexual abuse go
15
Rape on Campus."
15
unpunished, and how victims have been discouraged
16
from pressing charges."
13
Do you know who at Rolling Stone wrote
16
17
this promotional e-mail?
17
18
A No.
19
20
A No -- actually, yes, I'm sorry. I saw it
21
22
23
Have you ever seen it before?
or fair statement to say, that victims at UVa have
19
been discouraged from pressing charges?
20
A Well, it's talking there about a darker
21
chapter in UVa's history that I talk about in a
Do you know who generally writes
22
separate section, where I talk about -- I mean,
promotional e-mails like this at Rolling Stone?
23
what it says here about long history, I'm talking
24
about Liz Securo. I'm talking about, there was --
25
there was an accuser in 1993 with a person who
yesterday during prep.

Q
24
A No.
25
Do you know how someone would write a
[Page 246]
[Page 248]
promotional e-mail, if they had a draft of the
article with them, in drafting the promotional
e-mail?
foundation.
A I have no knowledge of how anything
promotional happens at Rolling Stone.
Q If you could take a second to review the

e-mail that Rolling Stone sent out. It says, in
10
part, that, "She," meaning you, "was horrified to
10
11
learn how the administration largely overlooks
11
12
victims of sexual assault and how the abusers keep
12
13
getting away with their crimes."
13
14
15
Is that a fair --
14
15
16
mischaracterizes the document that she refers
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17
to Jackie in that same sentence.
17
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MS. LOCKE: That's fair, thank you.
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Q Do you think it's a fair statement that

the administration largely overlooks victims of
21
sexual assault, meaning the UVa administration?
21
22
Do you think that's a fair summary to say,
18
A I think that the end result of the way
20
22
23
that victims of sexual assault are treated at UVa
23
24
is that they're -- the need to follow them through
24
25
to create a case, that is then prosecuted in some
25
[Page 247]
asked to have the lighting changed. There was

Susan Russell's daughter, and Annie Hilton. So,
those were all examples of -- those were all
examples of that.
Q Was Jackie discouraged from reporting her
rape to police?
A She was given -- she was given a
paralyzing number of choices. I would say that
the net effect of her -- of her being influenced
by her peers had a lot of to do with her feeling
discouraged.
Q Did Dean Eramo discourage her from
reporting her rape to police?
A No. I would actually say that Dean Eramo
was -- I mean, in her e-mails, she makes it clear
that, if Jackie were to ever decide to report,
that she would be there to help her.
ERAMO-04828 through 4873 was
Exhibit 509.)
Q And I direct your attention to -MS. McNAMARA: Why don't you put those
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to be what Title IX demanded.
over here, because otherwise it's going to get
in the middle of the video, the big reporting
And I would have thought that -- and I
notes.
kind of contrasted to, you know, this sort of
typical rape. That maybe, you know, your
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 509 is a transcript of

The Brian Lehrer Show.
run-of-the-mill rape might not rise to that level
Do you recall being interviewed on The
of alarm, but I would have thought that a rape
like Jackie reported, would be ringing alarm bells
all over campus.
7
8
Brian Lehrer Show?

A Barely.
So, when I talk about the administration
10

Bates ending in 821. You were, in fact,
10
doing nothing with the information, and the
11
interviewed on that show, correct?
11
indifference that they showed, what I'm talking
12
about is the idea that this end result that you
13
would have expected, which would have been a
14
Q And on that show, you're reported as

having said, "Well, the reason why her story
14
campus-wide warning, and, again, which the experts
15
really stood out is, obviously, because it was so
15
told me Title IX demanded, never materialized.
16
extreme. But the reason why I used it was because
16
17
her story -- what really shocked me about her
17
issued no warning, you said that Jackie was kind
18
story, was that her story was treated by her peers
18
of brushed off by the administration, correct?
19
and by the administration, much like stories of,
19
20
let's call them typical sort, or rape allegations,
20
21
that they were treated -- she was kind of brushed
21
22
off by her friends and by the administration.
22
23
When she told her friends about it, they either
23
24
didn't believe her or they downplayed the
24
asked and answered.
25
situation. They encouraged her not to report it
25
A I did not say that.
12
13
A I was.
Q You didn't say that the administration
A Again, this is shorthand for the article

itself.
Q And were you suggesting that Dean Eramo
brushed off Jackie?
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. That's been
[Page 250]
[Page 252]
because they said it would kill her reputation on
campus. And, eventually, when she did report it
to the administration, the administration did
A I don't know who -- as I mention in that,
nothing about -- they did nothing with the
in that interview that you pointed out with Sara
information. And they even continued to do
and -- I'm sorry, with Jackie and Alex, there are
nothing even when she eventually told them that
lots of people in the administration who are in
she had become aware of two other women who were
charge of making the sexual assault-related
also gang raped at the fraternity. So, the idea
decisions. Dean Eramo is only the most public
that, even in a case that was so extreme as
face of them because she is the liaison with the
Q Who were you referring to by "the

administration," if not Dean Eramo?
10
Jackie's, there would be this level of
10
11
indifference, it really opened up a window into
11
12
what was happening on campus with regard to rape
12
administration who is the one who would issue the
13
cases in general."
13
campus warning, or what the procedure would be for
14
something like that.
Did you make that statement on The Brian
14
15
Lehrer Show?
15
16
A I did.
16
17
What did you mean when you said that
17
students.
I don't actually know who it is with the
I just know that there are administrators

who do that.
Q Who else, to your understanding, did
18
Jackie was kind of brushed off by the
18
Jackie interface with in the administration with
19
administration?
19
respect, specifically, to her rape allegations?
20
A Well, what I meant there was, the idea
20
A I found out from Jackie and Alex that,
21
that, I was pretty shocked that somebody with --
21
that Dean Eramo had told Dean Groves Jackie's
22
even with a story as extreme as hers, was not
22
identity, which Jackie was really horrified about.
23
being -- that this case was not being actively
23
But I don't believe Jackie ever -- Jackie never
24
investigated, and that a warning was not being
24
told me that she ever actually interfaced
25
issued to the campus. Because I understood that
25
personally with him.
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Q Did Jackie tell you that she interfaced

with anyone else, specifically with respect to her
sexual assault, in the administration at UVa?
A Her administrative dean, who was the one
who had referred her to Dean Eramo in the first
place.
Q Dean Lyons referred Jackie to Dean Eramo;
is that your understanding?
A Yes.
Q Do you consider that brushing Jackie off?
A No. But the -MS. McNAMARA: Objection.
Mischaracterization of her testimony.
MS. LOCKE: I'm asking a question. It's
not a mischaracterization of anything.
Q I'm asking whether you believe
forwarding -- referring Jackie, Dean Lyons
referring Jackie to Dean Eramo would be brushing
Jackie off?
MS. McNAMARA: That's a different
question.
Your prior question had an implication or
foundation that that is either what she said or
wrote, neither of which is true.
A Like I said, I did not say that Dean Eramo
MS. LOCKE: Well, I can be clear, I've
never listened to the DoubleX Gabfest in my
life.
MS. McNAMARA: Hanna Rosin is a very good
4
5
reporter. She's married to David Plotz.

THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah?
MS. McNAMARA: Yeah.
7
8
9
I'm going to direct your attention to
Bates 586. Ms. Rosin asks you, "And can you tell
10
us a little bit what, for our listeners, what
11
Jackie told you, kind of how did the story unfold?
12
Did she tell you right away, did the details come
13
out slowly?"
14
To which you respond, "One thing that
15
surprised me, the details came out right away.
16
The minute we got on the phone, she was so ready
17
to tell her story that she was a freshman at the
18
University of Virginia, just a few weeks into her
19
freshman year, having the time of her life. I
20
mean, she said that the first month of her
21
freshman year was like the happiest four weeks
22
that she'd ever had, and she had been invited out
23
on a date by this handsome junior who had invited
24
her out to dinner and then to a fraternity party.
25
At that party, he invited her up the stairs into a
[Page 254]
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brushed off Jackie. What I said was that this

was, this was shorthand for my saying that the end
result of what you would have expected from
Jackie's report never came back.
Q Did Dean Lyons brush off Jackie when he
referred her to Dean Eramo?
A No.
ERAMO-04583 through 4578 was
Exhibit 461.)
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 461 is a transcript of
the Hanna Rosin show.
Do you recall being interviewed by Hanna
Rosin on the Slate podcast?
A Yes.
MR. CHEW: If you have an extra, that
would be great.
MS. LOCKE: Did I take yours? I'm sorry.
MR. CHEW: It's okay. I appreciate it.
MS. McNAMARA: Actually, I don't think
it's called the Hanna Rosin show. I think it's
called the DoubleX Gabfest.
[Page 255]
[Page 256]
1
bedroom and says she was then waiting in that
bedroom. It was pitch black in there. There were
seven men who took turns gang raping her for the
next three hours while her date and another guy
gave them encouragement and instruction."
6
7
8
9
Did you say those words on Ms. Rosin's

show?
A Yes.
Q Ms. Rosin responds, "It's just a crazy
10
story." And you respond, "I know. It boggles the
11
mind. It boggles the mind. But then it
12
actually -- I mean, it becomes even more
13
disturbing when Jackie told me that she had
14
actually told her friends, who had discouraged her
15
from reporting and who had totally downplayed the
16
situation. She had eventually kind of mustered up
17
the courage to tell the administration that she
18
had been brutally gang raped, and that the
19
university did nothing with this information, and
20
that they continued to do nothing even when she
21
eventually then told them that she had become
22
aware of two other women who were also gang raped
23
at the same fraternity. So, their idea that this
24
was some kind of culture in which there was so
25
much indifference and apathy towards rape victims,
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it was radiating everywhere, from the student

body, from the administration itself. I felt like
this is something that I did not really expect to
find."
Did you state those words on Ms. Rosin's
show?
A Yes.
Q And again, the person to whom Jackie
relayed the details of a sexual assault was Dean
Eramo, correct?
A Correct. But, again, I mean, this is
going to sound like a broken record, but when I
talk about how the administration did nothing, and
the indifference and the apathy towards rape
victims, or potential rape victims in this case,
what I'm talking about is the fact that the
administration had this information that was, you
know, as Hanna says, crazy, and I'm saying it's
mind boggling. They took this information and
they decided it didn't -- for whatever reason, it
didn't rise to the level of notifying the campus.
Q Do you consider taking Jackie to the
police doing nothing with respect to her
allegations of gang rape?
the end of your answer on the following page, 592,
to line 15, the end of your answer.
3
4
Okay.
Q You state, in part, "But it was absolutely

a violent crime and I think what was really
telling was the idea that -- and this is really
underscores the entire article. It's that the
student body and the administration doesn't really
10
11
12
13
treat rape as a crime, as a violent crime."

Who were you referring to in the
administration that doesn't treat rape as a crime?
A Well, I'm talking about how the Sexual
14
Misconduct Board will often have informal
15
mediations over rapes in which, when the
16
perpetrator -- the perpetrator is then directed to
17
get anger management counseling.
18
Q Are you suggesting that Dean Eramo doesn't

treat rape as a crime?
19
20
A I did not say Dean Eramo.
22
Q I'm asking if you were suggesting if Dean

Eramo didn't treat rape as a crime, not whether
23
you actually used her name.
21
24
25
A Dean Eramo, I'm aware, did present Jackie

with the option of going to police. She was
[Page 258]
foundation.
[Page 260]
1
obviously aware that it was a crime. But I -- but
It has not been established that she knew
I do know that very few of these cases do wind up
that she took her to the police regarding her
going to police, and, and many of these wind up
sexual assault.
being handled in these informal hearings where
A I was only aware that Jackie was taken to
they wind up being treated as behavioral issues.
the police -- that Dean Eramo accompanied her in
an interview with police to report the bottle
Q You go on to say, on the next page, 592,

that, "Even in this situation that was so extreme
incident. Nothing else.
and so obviously within the realm of criminal,
that they would seek to suppress something like
Q When did you learn that Dean Eramo did, in
10
fact, take Jackie to the police to report her
10
11
sexual assault?
11
12
A I didn't know that Jackie met with police
12
this, because that's really what they did."

Did Dean Eramo seek to suppress Jackie's
gang rape, in your mind?
13
to talk about the sexual assault until, until I
13
14
spoke with Detective Via on -- after publication
14
inadvertently did was paralyze Jackie with
15
of the article on December 18th.
15
choices. I think, in a situation like Jackie's,
16
where there's a potential for other people to be
17
in harm's way, I would think that the
18
encouragement would be very strong for her to go
19
to police.
16
Q Who were you referring to when you said,
17
"Ms.
18
of two other women who were also gang raped."
19
told them that she had become aware

Who did Ms.
tell that she had
A No. But I think that what she
20
become aware of two other women when she was gang
20
21
raped?
21
Q Who is the "they" that you're referring

to, then, there, when you say, "They would seek to
suppress something like this"? Who is "they"?
22
A She told Dean Eramo.
22
23
Q I'm going to direct your attention to 591,
23
A The administration, whoever it is that
24
Bates 591. You could read to yourself from where
24
makes these decisions. I mean, I don't think that
25
Ms. Rosin says, "It's a gang rape," down through
25
Dean Eramo, alone, is the person who makes these
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decisions. I believe there is a whole wing of

administrators that deals with these sorts of
things, most of them that -- that Dean Eramo
reports to.
Q You agree that Dean Eramo is part of the
UVa administration, don't you?
A Yes.
Q When you say, "Not only did they not
report it to the police, but I really feel she was
sort of discouraged from moving forward."
Who discouraged Jackie from moving
forward? Are you referring to Dean Eramo there?
A No, I was not. Really, when I talk about
discouraging her from moving forward, I'm really
talking about -- I'm really more talking about the
discouragement that she felt that she got from the
student body and the discouragement that she felt
from this kind of paralysis of choices.
Q When you say, "Not only did they not
report it to police, but I really feel she was
discouraged from moving forward. I would think
that the first thing they would do would be to
tell her this needs to go to the police," you're
referring to the student body?
A No. In that case, I am talking about the
A Jackie felt supported by Dean Eramo. But
one thing that really chipped away at Jackie's
feeling that she was -- that her -- that she --
one thing that really chipped away at Jackie was
the idea that her word was not enough, that she
needed to gather up these two other people to make
a case against this fraternity. So, to that
extent, she didn't feel like she was entirely
supported.
10
But no, I think that she makes it clear,
11
and I make it clear in the article, how much she
12
loves Dean Eramo, she thinks that she's an asset
13
to the community. I think I'm very clear about
14
that.
15
And to the extent that Dean Eramo is the
16
only person that she really interfaced with, I
17
think I make it very clear in the article that she
18
had very positive interactions with her.
19
20
Q Who in the administration are you

referring to, then, in Plaintiff's Exhibit 461,
21
when you say that she's not really had any of that
22
support from the administration?
23
A I think it would require a great deal of
24
support for her to move forward. And perhaps the
25
support of just one administrator isn't enough.
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idea that I would think that this would be

something that she would be strongly urged to go
to police about.
Q As you sit here today, do you think the
reason that Jackie didn't go to the police is
really because she was paralyzed with too many
choices?
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
A I have no idea.
text page, Bates 593. And if you could read your,
your response on Bates 593 that stops at line 2 on
594.
Okay.
Q You say that, "I just think it would
require a great deal of support for her to move
forward into any of these options to resolve her
case, and that's something that's been completely
absent. She really has not had any of that
support from her friends, from the administration,
nor from her family."
Is it fair to say that you were saying
that Dean Eramo did not provide her support?
[Page 263]
[Page 264]
1
2

bottom of Bates 594, in Plaintiff's Exhibit 461.
You say, "What I found is that UVa is a
place where the culture is one of extreme loyalty,
so I guess it shouldn't have surprised me that the
community of survivors, they're totally devoted to
the university, even as they're not very happy
with the way their cases are handled. They
totally buy into the attitude that radiates from
10
the administration that doing nothing is a fine
11
option. You know, if you unburden yourself to the
12
dean and take care of your own mental health, then
13
that's good enough."
14
15
16
Are you referring to Dean Eramo when you

refer to, "unburden yourself to the dean" there?
A Yes. Or whoever the intake dean is. I
17
mean, sometimes -- I'm aware that sometimes people
18
can confide in other deans.
19
Q You go on to say, "They create the support
20
group, which is great for them and they do
21
activism, they do bystander support seminars -- I
22
mean, intervention seminars and things like that,
23
which is great, but really what they're kind of
24
doing is reaffirming each other's choices not to
25
report, which is, of course, an echo of their
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administration's kind of ethos."
2
3
4
Do you think that Dean Eramo has the kind

of ethos to discourage victims from reporting?
A
I think, again, that is the -- that is the
sensitive about him. And I didn't know what her
2
3
mental health was, knowing that this article had

come out and was so much bigger than we ever
expected. And my understanding of what was
effect of the policy of victim choice, that victim
happening on the UVa campus is that it was just in
choice leads to victim~ not reporting, and that
chaos.
becomes codified in these victim support meetings
And so, I wanted to speak to Jackie to
in which nobody's reporting, and so that becomes
check in with her, but also because I wanted to
the standard and everybody becomes okay with it.
find out how she was feeling about things. So
10
11
12

as Plaintiffs Exhibit 536.
(Notes from conversation after
10
that, should other interviewers want to talk about
11
Drew and my process of contacting or not
12
contacting Drew, so that I could be upfront with
13
publication of article Bates
13
it and she'd be okay with -- I just, I needed to
14
14
know that she was all right So -- which is why,
15
was referenced as Plaintiffs
15
which is why, in the course of this conversation,
16
Exhibit 536.)
I had asked her for the man's name.
17
Q Plaintiffs Exhibit 536 appears to be a --
16
17
18
yet another reporting flle, but maybe you can tell
18
19
me what it is.
20
21
conversation~
22
out.
23
19
Yes, this -- these are my notes from

that I had after the article carne
Q At the top of the first page of
20
And I appreciate all of that.

All I asked was whether you typed these
notes. And the answer is yes?

A
21
I already answered that

MS. McNAMARA: And she needed to -- she
22
felt the need to explain it. She's entitled to
23
explain any question asked.
24
Plaintiffs Exhibit 536, you say, "The day before
24
25
Thanksgiving, Wednesday, 11/26, long conversation
25
Ms.-
Did you, in fact, think it was odd that

didn't know the name of her attacker,
[Page 266 ]
[Page 268]
with Jackie, she's feeling good with the article,
thanks me repeatedly, says it really represents
her. I tell her I'm very glad, but still
detailed and definite about all the things that
tmcomfortable not knowing the name of her alleged
she knew. And if she didn't know something, then
assailant, would she fmally tel! me? She does.
she would tell me so. So, this just seemed -- it
seemed strange. And what I thought, at the time,
Or - I ask her to spell.
as you say here, "mental note"?

A
I did. Because Jackie was always so
She says she's not sure if it's an. or an1 .
was that she was -- that she still didn't want to
Brackets: Mental note. That it's odd that she
give me the name, and that she was giving me a bit
of nusdirection so that I would stop bothering her
10
doesn't know the name of her attacker, but I nu1

through the UVa people search, there
is someone by that name who is a UVa grad and now
10
a grad student. A quick Google search ntms up
12
the name o
13
nothing. I decide to pursue more after the
13
some digging and mn a UVa people search and a
14
holiday weekend."
14
Google search, cOJTect?
11
12
15
Did you write those notes?
11
giving you
, you did, in fact, do
Yes.
I'm going to hand you as Plaintiffs
Q Fair to say --
18
18
Tlus was -- this was, just for context,
And as a result of Ms. -
16
17
Yes.
15
16
17
about it.
Exhibit 41 1.
19
this was the same day that I had given these two
19
20
interviews that we just disctL~sed. And it was
20
December 1, 2014 Bates stamped
21
apparent to me that, you know, people wanted to
21
22
talk about the process behind the article. And I
22
referenced as Plaintiffs
23
wanted to be able to talk about it more fully.
23
Exhibit 411.)
24
But I didn't know -- I didn't know how to talk
24
25
about Drew, since I knew that Jackie was so
25
It's an e-maiL If you tum to the second
page, 091, an e-mail that you sent on
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November 26th to Sean Woods, correct?

A Yes.
Q The report goes on. "Jackie gave Erdely a

name. But as the reporter typed, her fingers
Q And you asked Mr. Woods, "Would it be
stopped. Jackie was unsure how to spell the
possible to retrieve the online comments on the
lifeguard's last name. Jackie speculated aloud
UVa story about the Phi Psi members whose Facebook
about possible variations. Quote, An alarm bell
profiles were suddenly deleted? Did it name
went off in my head, Erdely said."
names? If so, I'd very much like to see it."
Did Columbia quote you correctly there?
A Yes. Although, it was a poor choice of
1
2
Were you asking Mr. Woods for the deleted
8
9
comments so you could attempt to identify
words on my part -- on my part.
10
A Yes.
10
11
11
Q "How could Jackie not know the exact name

of someone she had said -- she said had carried
12
(Columbia Journalism Review
12
out such a terrible crime against her, a man she
13
article entitled "Rolling
13
professed to fear so deeply. Over the next few
14
Stone's Investigation: A Failure
14
days, worried about the integrity of her story,
15
that was avoidable" Bates
15
the reporter investigated the name Jackie had
16
stamped ERAMO-04541 through 4563
16
provided. But she was unable to confirm that he
17
17
worked at the pool, was a member of the fraternity
18
Exhibit 6.)
18
Jackie had identified, or had other connections to
19
Jackie or to her descriptions of her assault."
19
20
as Plaintiff's Exhibit 6, which is the Columbia
20
21
Journalism Review. I take it you've read this
21
the next few days, you were worried about the
22
before?
22
integrity of your story, you investigated the name
Is that an accurate statement that, over
23
A Yes.
23
Jackie had provided, and did the other things that
24
24
I just read in that sentence?
25
Bates 4543. The second paragraph, it reads, "A
25
A That is not an accurate statement. I was
[Page 270]
[Page 272]
week after publication, on the day before
not worried about the integrity of my story. The
Thanksgiving, Erdely spoke with Jackie by phone.
fact that Jackie had given me what I thought was a
'She thanked me many times,' Erdely said. Jackie
false name, I thought was a bit of misdirection on
seemed, quote, adrenaline-charged and feeling
my part because she didn't want to share this
really good."
information with me. It didn't, in any way,
compromise that my feeling that she had told me
the truth. I felt very passionately that we what
we had printed was the truth, and what I discussed
with my editor -- editors, was, in fact, yes, I
Did Columbia quote you correctly?
6
7
A Yes.
"Erdely chose this moment to revisit the
mystery of the lifeguard who had lured Jackie and
10
overseen her assault. Jackie's unwillingness to
10
11
name him continued to bother Erdely. Apparently
11
12
the man was still dangerous and at large. Quote,
12
that he worked at the pool. I looked up -- I
13
This is not going to be published, the writer
13
actually -- I think I had done some of this
14
said, as she recalled, Can you just tell me, end
14
before -- oh, no, but only with the name
15
quote."
15
sorry.
16
17

A They quoted me correctly, but the
did try to -- the rest of it is correct.

I did try to confirm, in various ways,
16
But I did look up things like past swim
17
teams, looking for names of lifeguards. I looked

up --
18
editorialized wrongly. Their conclusion was that
18
19
I -- the reason why I was bothered was because
19
20
there was this man who was still dangerous at
20
talking about prepublication or post
21
large. That was not the reason I was bothered. I
21
publication?
22
was simply bothered because this was somebody who
22
23
I didn't know his identity. People were asking
23
24
me, you know, about my efforts to contact him, and
24
25
I wanted to be able to talk about it freely.
25
[Page 271]
I'm
MS. McNAMARA: Just for clarity, are you
THE WITNESS: This was -- sorry, this was

pre, prepublication. Sorry.
MS. McNAMARA: Just -- I just thought your
testimony was unclear.
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THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sorry.
A So, no, I was not worried about the
we're going to do this?

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the
integrity of my story. And what I discussed with
my editors, my concerns with my editors, was,
actually, number one, that, you know, I thought
that she had given me a false name. I told them
that right away. I said that she had given me a
name, but I wasn't sure it was the right name.
were testifying about conversations that you
But I didn't feel overly concerned about it, and
recall having with Mr. Woods about the three
10
11
we discussed it.
10
But what we primarily discussed the
11
record. The time is 5:30.

(Recess taken.)
The time is 5:31.
Q Ms. Erdely, before we took a break, you
friends.
A Right, so I can't specifically remember
12
following week, after Thanksgiving, was the idea
12
when we had this conversation, or these
13
that my story was suddenly under attack from
13
conversations. But we touched on the friends
14
people saying that it wasn't true.
14
multiple times, but it always came back to the
15
idea that, if Ryan wasn't amendable to speaking,

then how would Kathryn and Alex be amendable to
speaking. And that just seemed like a dead end.
15
16
556 in Plaintiff's Exhibit 6. In particular,
16
17
Columbia writes, "In hindsight, the most
17
18
consequential decision Rolling Stone made was to
18
19
accept that Erdely had not contacted the three
19
20
friends who spoke with Jackie on the night she
20
21
said she was raped."
21
Q The Columbia report, lower on that page,

goes on -A And, I'm sorry, can I just add one more
thing?
22
A I'm sorry, where are you?
22
23
Q The very top.
23
characterization that, in hindsight, the most
24
consequential decision was to accept that I hadn't
25
contacted the three friends.
24
25
MS. McNAMARA: The second full paragraph.

Q 556. It goes on, "That was the reporting
I actually completely disagree with their
[Page 274]
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
path, if taken, would have almost certainly led

the magazine's editors to change plans. Erdely
said that, as she was preparing to write her first
draft, she talked with Woods about the three
friends. Quote, Sean advised me that, for now, we
should just put this aside, she said. He actually
suggested that I change their names for now.
Woods said that he intended this decision to be
temporary pending further reporting and review."
Did Columbia quote you correctly in that
second paragraph I just read?
A Yes, I believe so.
Q Did Mr. Woods ever raise the issue of
reaching out to the three friends again after he
advised you that, for now, we should just put this
aside?
A I remember discussing it, and it often
just coming back to the idea that, if Ryan wasn't
willing to talk, then how are we going to get
anybody to talk? So -- and we had multiple
discussions about that.
THE WITNESS: What's up?
MR. CHEW: Excuse me, I think this is
broken again.
MS. LOCKE: Can we go off the record if
[Page 275]
[Page 276]
1
I do -- I mean, in retrospect, of course,
I wish I had done a lot of things differently, and
contacting the three friends is certainly
something I wish I had done.
But they're writing this with, with, with
hindsight 20/20. And there's no way to know, if I
had actually contacted these three friends, how
much information they would have given me.
Q The Columbia report goes on to quote you
10
as saying, "In retrospect, I wish somebody had
11
pushed me harder, end quote, about reaching out to
12
the three friends for their versions, Erdely said.
13
I guess maybe I was surprised that nobody said,
14
Why haven't you called them? But nobody did, and
15
I wasn't going to press that issue."
16
17
A They did.
18
19
Third paragraph down says, "As noted,
20
there was no such explicit compact between Erdely
21
and Jackie, according to Erdely's records. Jackie
22
requested Erdely not to contact the lifeguard, but
23
there was no agreement."
24
Is that an accurate statement, that there
25
was no agreement between you and Jackie not to
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contact Drew?
run the statement tomorrow. In fact, we're going
A Well, at the very end, we did agree that I
to have to run a retraction. I just got off the
was not going to contact -- that I was not going
phone with Jackie and her friend Alex. Neither I,
to contact Drew.
nor Alex, find Jackie credible any longer."
Q But, at some point, Jackie suggested that
you go to Phi Psi and get a list of fraternity
brothers in order to verify Drew/
correct?
identity,
A Correct, correct. And I did -- I did as
Mr. Dana, that, that Jackie's explanation for not
going forward with the police investigation was
much as I could think to do to try to find
10
11
somebody named
11
12
was a member of Phi Psi.
13
So, I remember, first of all, looking
Q And you communicated to Mr. Woods, and to
10
who worked at the pool and who

A Yes.
lacking, correct?
A Yes.
12
Q And you communicated to Mr. Woods and to
13
Mr. Dana that, by the time you were done speaking
14
through social media. I remember pulling up --
14
with Jackie, that you were nearly certain that
15
there were, on the Phi Psi alumni website, there
15
Jackie was not being truthful, correct?
16
were old newsletters to alumni, that some of the
16
17
listed -- I think most of them listed pledge
17
18
classes. And I looked through each one to see if
18
19
any of them had pledges that had names that began
19
20
with the letter .
20
21
Unfortunately, it was an incomplete list
22
most were missing.
23
aquatic center website and looked up anything
Q And that Phi Psi was going to issue a

was no brother named
of pledge years and the years that I needed the
25
A Correct.
statement denying there was a party and that there
23
I also looked up -- I went to their
Q And that Jackie's friends could not

identify Jackie's attacker, correct?
21
22
24
A Yes.
24
25
A Correct.
Q And you end the e-mail in the same way you
begin it by telling Mr. Woods and Mr. Dana that
[Page 278]
[Page 280]
having to do with lifeguards, any mention of
lifeguards. There was a blog that was run by a
lifeguard.
I looked up their swim team rosters
in the house, correct?
Rolling Stone has to issue a retraction, correct?

A Correct.
Q Mr. Dana responds that, "I think we have
to write something along the lines of how we

screwed up." And you agree with that, correct?
thinking that, perhaps, a member of the swim team
would have been a lifeguard, looking for anybody
whose name started with "J." But all of those
Q And you were concerned about publishing
efforts were unsuccessful.
the response before The Washington Post published
an article, or else it will look like The Post
9
10
Q You think you did all you could to

identify
10
A Correct.
shamed us into it, correct?
11
A I do.
11
A I wanted it to be clear that -- I came to
12
12
this conclusion about Jackie on my own, and I
13
wanted to do the right thing by admitting it
13
14
14
ourselves. So, it was important to me that we
15
Erdely to Will Dana dated
15
move as fast as possible.
16
16
17
17
18
18
19
Exhibit 88.)
19
20
Q But Rolling Stone didn't take the article

off the website that day, did they?
A They didn't take the website -- I mean,
20
they didn't take it off the website, but my
21
exchange between you, Will Dana, and Sean Woods,
21
understanding was that they effectively retracted
22
correct?
22
it that day.
23
A Yes.
23
24
Q On December 5th, at 1:54 a.m., you wrote
24
that Rolling Stone effectively retracted the
25
Mr. Dana and Mr. Woods an e-mail that, "We can't
25
article on December 5th?
[Page 279]
Q What's your basis for your understanding
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can't remember the wording exactly, but it was
about the fact that we had -- do you have the
wording of the statement?
several other individuals, including Chris Lisi,
Melissa Bruno, and Tracy Sefl.
5
6
A Well, they issued a statement. And I
Q Not in front of me.

A We were basically disavowing anything that
Q This is an e-mail exchange between you and
And, in particular, I want to direct your
Jackie had told us.
attention to the second page 817 on December 5th
Q And as part of that statement, were you

disavowing the portrayal of Dean Eramo?
at 8:44, you write that you agree about a mea
culpa. "Taylor Shapiro from The Washington Post
10
A No, only the things that Jackie told us.
10
e-mailed me at 3:00 a.m. wanting an interview this
11
Q Rolling Stone stood by its portrayal of

Dean Eramo, correct?
11
morning for the story he's been doing on the
12
allegations on Jackie. He's already interviewed
13
her from twice, which I know from Jackie, as well.
12
13
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Except to the
14
extent that it came from Jackie, as she just
14
It's important that our mea culpa go to press
15
testified.
15
before they publish it so it doesn't look like we
16
were shamed into it. Melissa, could you hold
17
Q You can answer.

A Anything that came only from Jackie was
16
17
Taylor off? Ask him about his deadline. Delay
18
disavowed. So anything -- any portrayal of Dean
18
him as much as possible. Maybe I'll tell him I'd
19
Eramo that came only from Jackie, we disavowed.
19
like to talk, though I'm not sure that I do, but
20
20
that I'm super busy today."
21
Q Part of the criticism of the article was

it was unclear what came from Jackie and what
22
didn't come from Jackie; is that fair?
22
21
23
A Yes, that is fair. When we wrote it, we
23
24
thought that it was clear, but that turned out not
24
25
to be the case.
25

A Yes.
MS. McNAMARA: It says, "Maybe tell him,"
not that I'll tell him.
MS. LOCKE: "Maybe tell him."
[Page 282]
1
2
3
4
5
Q Who was involved in the decision to

effectively retract the article?
A I don't know-- actually, I'm sorry, can I
amend that? I think I do know.
In the discussions that I was involved in,
[Page 284]

as Plaintiff's Exhibit 518, and you can keep 517
in front of you.
(E-mail from Melissa Bruno to
Taylor Shapiro dated December 5,
in the beginning, in terms of retracting the
article, I did have a discussion with Sean, Will,
and Jann.
Q And what were Sean, Will's, and Jann's
10
respective positions about whether the article
10
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 518 on the second -I'm sorry, the third page ending in 827, is
11
should have been retracted?
11
Mr. Shapiro's e-mail to you at 3:00 that morning.
12
A They were extremely concerned about my
12
Do you see that?
13
level of concern. And both Will and Sean
13
14
immediately took me at my word. Jann needed some
14
15
more convincing.
15
Q And you respond, on 826, Bates 826, at

8:48, just four minutes after the e-mail you sent
16
on Plaintiff's Exhibit 517.
16
But, but, as I said -- but, even before we
A Yes.
17
had that conversation -- I mean, that's -- before
17
"Hi, Taylor. Thanks for reaching out.
18
we ever had that conversation, the -- the
18
I'd actually like to speak with you for your
19
statement had already gone out on the website
19
story. What's your deadline? My morning is
20
retracting the rejected portion of the article.
20
craze, so far, for the moment. I'm connecting you
21
with Melissa Bruno, Rolling Stone's publicity
22
director, CC'd here, who is handling my schedule."
21
22

23
(E-mail from Chris Lisi to
23
24
Melissa Bruno dated December 5,
24
A I did.
25
25
Q Why did you tell Mr. Shapiro that you were
[Page 283]
Did you type those words to Mr. Shapiro?
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Q Is that correct?
interested in speaking with him when earlier you
communicated to your internal PR team that you
didn't want to speak to him?
A I expressed to him my willingness to speak
with him. Even though I was feeling ambivalent,
MR. CHEW: Objection to form. That
MS. McNAMARA: Same objection.
misstates her testimony.
but I told him that I would like to speak with
A Yeah, I did not actually -- you actually
him.
just read into the record that I'm not sure that I
want to talk to him, but I was considering
speaking with him. It seemed like, perhaps, that
(Draft document Bates stamped
10
might be an option for us to get the word out
10
11
about what had just happened.
11
12
12
13
Q You don't communicate to Mr. Shapiro your

reservations about speaking with him, you say to
14
him, "I'd actually like to speak with you for your
14
15
story," don't you?
15
13
RS002176 through 2179 was marked

Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 399 appears to be a
draft of your mea culpa; is that correct?
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Well, you can
answer.
16
A Yeah, it's -- I wouldn't call it a mea
17
culpa. It's, it's an explanation for -- this was
A I didn't know what the plan was going to
16
17
Q I'm handing you what's been marked as

18
going to be our explanation for -- of what
19
be. This was all -- it's hard to describe the
19
happened.
20
kind of shock that I was in.
20
18
Having discovered, in the early morning
21
21
Q But it's something that you wrote and that

Mr. Woods was commenting on, correct?
A Correct. And it was -- if I could just
22
hours, that the person who I had absolutely
22
23
believed and trusted, had, for whatever reason,
23
24
turned out to not be credible. And I didn't know
24
It was a total 180-degree turn from what I
25
whether what we had published was truthful or not.
25
had been writing the night before. The reason why
add one thing.
[Page 286]
[Page 288]
It was the most devastating moment of my entire
I was awake to get that distressing call -- to
career.
have that distressing call with Jackie in the
first place is because I had been drafting a very
And having never been anywhere near it
3
4
before, I did not know how to handle it. What I
spirited defense of the article right up until the
did know is, I moved on it immediately. I
moment that I got that call from Jackie.
e-mailed my editors, we talked about it first
thing in the morning, and we tried to figure out
afterwards was, was just stunning.
how to get on top of it in a way to get the truth
out.

first page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 399. In the
10
middle paragraph, you say, "I chose the case not
11
in the morning? 8:30 in the morning, or what have
11
only because of the extreme nature of what she
12
you, 8:40 in the morning, we're weighing lots of
12
said had happened to her, but because of my
13
options. We're weighing me suddenly writing a --
13
amazement that the administration never appeared
14
some kind of mea culpa, or as people put it, as
14
to have pursued her claims seriously. Her case
15
how I screwed up, how we screwed up. I'm
15
seemed to get to the very heart of the larger
16
weighing, maybe I should talk to this reporter who
16
story I sought to tell."
17
is reporting on this already and is already
17
18
well-informed about what's going on.
18
10
19
So, at this point, at -- what time is it
So, to be writing this so shortly
I'm not making these decisions alone. I'm
19
20
waiting for everyone to come together and decide.
20
21
21
22
Q But you communicated to Mr. Shapiro that

you would actually like to speak with him,
23
correct?
23
24
25

Mischaracterization in context.
[Page 287]
22
Were you sincere when you wrote those

words?
A Was I sincere?
Q Were you making that up, or were you being
sincere when you wrote those words?
A I don't make anything up.
24
Q Were you being sincere, then, when you

wrote those words? Did you believe that statement
25
when you wrote it?
[Page 289]
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A I believe that statement, yes.
the record to do work. If you want her to look
at that and you feel it's important --
next page, 177.
MS. McNAMARA: Can we put this document in
context because I think the way it's being
testified to -- and I don't want it to be
false -- that this was not written on
December 5th.
THE WITNESS: Right.
10
Q When was this document written?
10
11
A Sometime in the next -- sometime the
11
12
following week. Can I think?

The following Wednesday. I don't know
13
14
15
what date that would be.

Q On the next page, on Bates 177, it says --
MS. LOCKE: Let's go off the record,

please.
MR. CHEW: Keep it on the record.
time is 5:50 p.m.
(Recess taken.)
The time is 6:00 p.m.
Q Ms. Erdely, before we left, I asked you
12
whether you had Kathryn Hendley's name within one
13
vowel and that you had Kathryn "Hindley,"
14
H-I-N-D-L-E-Y, correct?
15
A Correct.
Q And so, in Plaintiff's Exhibit 399, you
16
you write, at the top of the page, "During the
16
17
course of the reporting, I became aware of three
17
said, "I fished for those names from others in the
18
other friends Jackie had told of her assault on
18
close-net community, but no one would disclose
19
the night of the incident, whose reactions she had
19
them."
20
found troublesome and painful. She said she would
20
21
contact one of them to see if he would talk to me.
21
actually disclosed to you Ms. Hendley's last name
22
The other two, she did not, saying that they had a
22
within one vowel, correct?
23
falling out following Jackie's sense of betrayal."
23
24
And I'm skipping Mr. Woods' comments. "And she
24
MS. McNAMARA: 399, you're asking about?
25
would not give me their last names."
25
MS. LOCKE: 399.
But it's fair to say that Ms. Soltis
A Where is this document? Sorry.
[Page 290]
Why didn't you explain here, in writing,
[Page 292]
1
A Did it disappear?
that you had Kathryn Hendley's last name?
Q It may be under the reporting file.

A No.
A I did not have Kathryn Hendley's last
MS. McNAMARA: Do you want to use mine

(handing)?
name.
Q The top of page 177, you write, "I fished

for those names from others in the close-net
Q You had a version of Kathryn Hendley's

last name, correct?
community, but no one would disclose them."
A I had a guess as to what her last name
It's fair to say that Rachel Soltis
10
was, but I did not have her last name.
10
provided you Kathryn Hendley's last name within
11
Q It's fair to say you had her last name

within one vowel, correct?
11
one vowel of the actual spelling, correct?
12
13
13
you see in the transcript here -- first of all,
12
A I was not aware of that at the time. If
14
14
this is my phonetic spelling of what she had said.
15
A I did not have her last name.
15
I, I didn't know what her -- I was misspelling her
16
first name. And I wasn't really aware that I had
17
Q You had "Hindley," is that correct,

H-I-N-D-L-E-Y?
17
this name at this point in time. I mean, this was
18
18
well after I had written the article.
16
19
19
As you can see, I didn't bold it, so I'm
20
A I would have to go back to the notes to
20
not even sure that, in hindsight, I was aware of
21
what I had. After this whole article came --
22
after this whole article fell apart and Will Dana
23
was reading my transcript, he actually came across
21
22
23
see.
Q Okay. Would you like to do that?
A I would.
24
MS. LOCKE: Why don't we take a break.
24
this and had to remind me that I had this
25
MS. McNAMARA: We're not going to go off
25
information.
[Page 291]
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So, when I was writing this document, it
was not foremost on my mind that Rachel Soltis had
Exhibit 165.)
given me an approximation of Kathryn's name.
Q Being an experienced journalist, fair to

Alex Pinkleton sent to you on the morning of
December 5th, correct?
say that you think you probably could have found
Kathryn Hendley with the version of the name that
you had?
8
9
10
A It's possible that I could have found her.

But finding her, and her talking to me, would have
been two separate issues.
Q And it's Alex Stock and Kathryn Hendley's

Facebook -- links to their Facebook profiles; is
that correct?
10
A Correct.
A Yes. I had asked her -- yes.
12
next page, 178. About two-thirds of the way down,
12
Q Did you communicate to Mr. Woods or

Mr. Dana on December 5th, or even the day after,
13
you write, "A reader may ask, and I ask myself at
13
that you had, in fact, Alex Stock's and Kathryn
14
the time, if it was wise to build the opening of a
14
Hendley's Facebook profiles and knew who these
15
story around someone who seemed so emotionally
15
three friends were?
16
fragile."
16
11
11
A First of all, just to give this some
17
Did you, in fact, ask yourself, at the
17
context, when I was on the phone with Alex at, you
18
time before publication, whether it was wise to
18
know, 1:30 in the morning that day, after I talked
19
build the opening of a story around someone who
19
to Jackie, I said to her, "Will you finally now
20
seemed so emotionally fragile?
20
give me the information for those other friends?"
21
And she said, she said, "Yes." So that is the
21
A Sure. I had times -- when she
22
disappeared, I had times when I wondered whether
22
reason why she sent me these, these names.
23
she was strong enough to handle the, the duress it
23
24
would put her under to tell her story and then to
24
Q Did you communicate that you had those

names to Mr. Woods or Mr. Dana?
25
go public with the story.
25
A We contacted them the following week. I
[Page 294]
[Page 296]
don't recall.
But, ultimately, I felt, and she agreed,
that she was, she was strong enough for it.
Q The last paragraph of this document, on

179, begins "The Washington Post sent a team."
You write, "Obviously we regret any factual errors
in the story, and we'll make every effort to
correct the record. But Rolling Stone believes
the essential point of Jackie's narrative is, in
fact, true. A young woman suffered a horrific


10
crime at a party and a prestigious university
10
exchange between you, Mr. Woods, and, in part,
11
reacted with indifference to her claim."
11
Ms. Garber-Paul, where Mr. Woods sends
12
Do you believe that today, that the
12
Ms. Garber-Paul an ABC News web link. And then,
13
university acted with indifference to Jackie's
13
approximately three minutes later, Ms. Garber-Paul
14
claim?
14
forwards to Mr. Woods e-mail addresses for Kathryn

Hendley and Alex Stock.
15
A I believe what I believed then, which is
15
16
that I was, and still, am surprised that a woman
16
17
who reported a gang rape and, in fact, multiple
17
18
gang rapes, did not trigger some kind of process
18
19
that ended with a campus-wide warning.
19
20
20
piece (indicating), I don't believe that it had
21

21
actually come out who Kathryn and Alex were in
22
(E-mail from Alexandria
22
public.
23
Pinkleton to Sabrina Rubin
23
24
24
25
Bates stamped Pinkleton-01167
25
[Page 295]
Do you see that?

A Oh, yes. And, actually, this reminds me,
if I can clarify something that I said earlier.
The day that I was drafting this, this
Anyway, so, go on, what was your question,

I'm sorry?
Q Ms. Garber-Paul sends to Mr. Woods the
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2
3
4
e-mail addresses for Kathryn and Alex, correct?
know that I was really shaken by that, by that
A Yes.
interview. And then I, I told him -- he was busy
Q And Mr. Woods then forwards those e-mail
with something, finals or something, and I told
him that we would follow up the following week.
addresses to you; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q This suggests to me that Mr. Woods did not
Q Did you ask Mr. Duffin, in that first

conversation, whether he believed Ms.
know that you had already had Kathryn and Alex's
actually been assaulted that night?
Facebook profiles and that you knew who they were.
9
10
11
12
Does that suggest that to you?

9
10
question.
11
A It doesn't suggest that to me. There had
12
had
A I don't remember if we discussed it in

that conversation.
Q Did you have multiple conversations with
Mr. Duffin?
A Yes.
13
been no discussion before this week about reaching
13
14
out to people.
14
Q Tell me about the second conversation that

you had with Mr. Duffin.
15
I mean, on the day that Alex sent me that
15
A It's hard to remember. He told me -- he
16
information, we had been talking about what to do
16
told me that, that Jackie had had a crush on him,
17
with the retraction. We had not yet moved on to,
17
and that I remember him telling me that he had --
18
sort of, re-reporting, as it were, and clarifying
18
she had sprung for these really expensive concert
19
what had happened.
19
tickets for his favorite band, which I actually

remember her telling me was her favorite band.
20
So, I don't believe that this is any
20
21
indication that he didn't know that I had the
21
22
names. I think that this was just the beginning
22
remember him telling me that the night of her
23
of our kind of reinvestigation.
23
alleged assault, that he had -- he had, in fact,
24
met her. It wasn't in the place that she had
25
described, and that the, the assault had been
24
25

[Page 298]
[Page 300]
(E-mail to Ryan Duffin from
Sabrina Rubin Erdely Bates
stamped Duffin-0171 was refenced
Q It's an e-mail -- appears to be an e-mail

that you sent to, to Ryan Duffin; is that correct?
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
6
7
A Yes.
Q And you and Mr. Duffin ultimately spoke on
the phone; is that correct?
8
9
10
A We did.
Q What did -- what did that conversation
tell? Tell me everything that you remember.
A Well, I asked Ryan -- I asked Ryan whether
11
12
13
14
Jackie had asked him whether he wanted to
14
15
participate with the article, and he said no. And
15
16
I told him that she had told me that he -- she had
16
17
seen him at a restaurant called Cookout, and he
17
18
had put on this big rant about how he didn't want
18
19
to be involved. And he said that he was -- he
19
20
seemed really shocked. And he said that, in fact,
20
21
the last time he had seen Jackie was at Cookout,
21
22
but it had been sometime before that, and they'd
22
23
only just exchanged some kind of friendly
23
24
greeting. And we were -- we were both, I think,
24
25
really shaken -- he sounded really shaken, and I
25
[Page 299]
And then he told me that the night -- I
different from what she described. And that he

didn't remember seeing blood on her.
He also told me that -- I think -- I think
he also shed some light on the fact that she and
Kathryn had had a parting of the ways because
Jackie had actually been very nasty to Kathryn.
And I -- I'm having trouble remembering
specifically what else.
(E-mail from Ryan Duffin to
December 14,2014 Bates stamped
Exhibit 266.)
Q Before I do -- in any of those two
conversations -- did you have any other
conversations with Mr. Duffin?
A He sent me some e-mails, I think. I think
he sent me some e-mails with some stuff that I had
asked him for. But that was -- I think that was
it.
Q During the two conversations, verbal
conversations, that you had with Mr. Duffin, did
[Page 301]
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he ever express any unwillingness to speak with
happened that night? They all had the same
you?
answer, which was, "I don't know, but something

happened to her. Like, I don't know what happened
to her, but something happened to her that night."
A No.
Q Is this an e-mail that Mr. Duffin
forwarded you?
Q You refer to the Haven Monahan thing, and
A Yes.
by that, are you -- do you mean that Jackie had
accused a person by the name of Haven Monahan as
the individual who orchestrated a rape?
8
9
10
11
12
Did you also speak with Kathryn Hendley?

A Yes, I did.
Q Tell me everything you remember about your
conversation with Ms. Hendley.
A Kathryn also recounted that she and Jackie
A Oh, no, no. I'm referring to -- maybe I'm
10
getting it confused. That Ryan had sent me some,
11
like, text correspondence between some supposed
12
person in her class named Haven who was in love
13
had had a falling out because Jackie had spread
13
with her, but who he now suspected was actually
14
some nasty rumors about her. And she said that
14
Jackie.
15
she also confirmed what Ryan had said about seeing
15
16
Jackie the night of her alleged assault in a
16
friends, communicate to you that Jackie had told
17
different place than Jackie had told me. And --
17
them that Haven Monahan was the handsome guy who
18
but that she wasn't allowed near the conversation.
18
took her out on the date that orchestrated a rape?
19
That Jackie had only wanted to talk to Ryan and
19
20
Alex, and that she had asked that Kathryn stand
20
had said that that was the person she was on a
21
back. And so, she wasn't able to hear what
21
date with that night.
22
exactly was said.
22
23
24
25
Q Is that all you remember about the

conversation with Ms. Hendley?
A I remember she also said that they lived
Q Did Ryan communicate, or any of the three
A I believe that they said that, that she
You know, I'm sorry, I don't want to, I
23
don't want to, I don't want to guess. It's been
24
so long since I had those conversations. I
25
actually can't remember.
[Page 302]
[Page 304]
across the hall from each other the following
year. But that they didn't -- they basically
didn't speak.
Bates stamped RS019722 was
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Q Anything else?
A I, I know we talked about other things,
but I'm just having trouble remembering right now.
Q Did you also speak with Mr. Stock?
A I did.
Q Tell me everything you remember about your
conversation with Mr. Stock.
7
8
9
10

Exhibit 231.)
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 231 is an e-mail you
sent to a woman named Nicole that Alex Stock had
suggested you contacting.
11
A It was much like the conversation I had --
11
12
the conversations with Kathryn and Ryan. He told
12
13
me that Jackie had spread nasty rumors about
13
14
Kathryn, that that was part of the reason for
14
15
their falling out. That Jackie had been in love
15
16
with Ryan.
16
(E-mail from Gerrit
17
17
He told me -- he confirmed, also -- I
Who was Nicole, and why did Mr. Stock

suggest that you contact her?
A I have no memory.
to
18
don't know if I mentioned that Ryan had told me
18
19
about this Haven Monahan thing that Alex also
19
20
talked about. And he said that he and Kathryn had
20
21
started dating, I think for a little while. And
21
22
that's all I remember.
22

you sent to an individual named Gerrit
23
The one thing -- when I asked them, Do you
23
And Mr.
is someone, that you say in
24
think that she was -- do you think she was -- do
24
this e-mail, that Kathryn Hendley suggested that
25
you think she was raped? What do you think
25
you get in touch with.
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18
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21
22
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Who is Gerrit
and why did
Ms. Hendley suggest that you get into touch with
him?
A It's safe to say that all of the people I
reached out to, were all people who could further
corroborate the things that Kathryn, Ryan, and
Alex were telling me.
I believe that this person was somebody
who had lived with them in their hall freshman
year.
Q And what was he had supposed to be
confirming for you?
A I'm pretty sure -- I think it had to do
with the rumors that, that Jackie was supposedly
spreading about Kathryn.
I'm going to hand you what's been marked
Erdely to Jacqueline
on
Exhibit 477.)
Q It's an e-mail that you send to
1
2
she would have answered them.

Q Do you think these are questions you
should have asked before Rolling Stone printed "A
Rape on Campus"?
5
6
question.
A Again, these are all -- these are all
questions I would have liked to have asked.
Knowing now that Jackie is not always a truthful
10
person, I don't know whether the answers that she
11
would have given would have necessarily changed
12
the end result.
13
Q The next page in Plaintiff's Exhibit 377
14
[sic], ending in Bates 640, middle of the way
15
down, you ask Ms.
16
of your friends have asked about the scars on your
17
back, but none of your friends, I've spoken with,
18
have ever seen scars on your back, including your
19
boyfriend,
20
said this when we were at dinner in September.
21
Can you give me an example of someone whose seen
22
them who I can talk to?"
"You also told me all
Parenthesis, if you recall, he
Did you ask Ms.
23
24
A In this e-mail?
25
Q Yes.
that question?
[Page 306]
1
Ms.
on December 17th?
[Page 308]
1
A Yes.
Q And fair to say that you knew,
A Yes.
Q And this is an e-mail where you have a
prepublication, that
on Ms.
information to you back in September?
variety of questions for Ms.
correct?
A Yes.
Q And in this e-mail, you ask her, towards
had never seen scars
back, and he communicated that
A Right. At the time, as I mentioned, it
the bottom of the first page of Plaintiff's
didn't bother me because I thought that Jackie was
Exhibit 677, "Did you tell your friends the night
very credible. After I discovered that Jackie was
of September 28th that you'd been forced to
not credible, then, anything that I had taken from
10
perform oral on a bunch of guys? Did you tell
10
her alone, I had to question. So, that's what I
11
that same account to your roommates a few months
11
was doing.
12
later? Why did your story change? What happened
12
13
on the night of the 28th?"
13
write, "They also sent me an e-mail from Haven to
14
Ryan sent on October 23, 2012, that included a
15
love letter to Ryan. Ryan says that you confessed

you had written the letter."
Did you ask Ms.
14
15
Ms.
those questions of
on December 17th?
16
A I did.
16
17
Q You knew, at this time, that Ms.
17
18
had told Rachel Soltis that she, Ms.
19
been forced to perform oral sex, correct?
had
told you that Ms.
19
that letter?
A Yes.
20
21
Q Fair to say these are questions you should
21
23
24
25
have asked Jackie prepublication?

MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Hypothetical.
A If I had asked Jackie these questions
before publication, I don't know, I don't know how
[Page 307]
Is that an accurate statement, that Ryan
18
20
22
Q A couple of more questions down, you
had confessed to writing
MS. McNAMARA: You're talking about in the

conversations after publication?
MS. LOCKE: Yes.
22
23
A I don't -- sitting here, I don't recall
24
right now. But if I wrote it, then it must be
25
true.
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Q And then the following three questions,

you say, "Did you really reach out to
on my
behalf? Did you really have the conversations
with her that you described to me about how she
and her sister declined to cooperate with the
article? Did you really reach out to
Is
there a
Did you really reach out to
Is there a
Are those questions that you were asking
Ms.
in this e-mail?
A Yes.
Q Fair to say that those are questions that
you should have asked before publication of "A
Rape on Campus"?
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. Speculation.
A I did, actually, ask her, did you reach
out to
and did you reach out to
which is why she furnished me with those text
messages.
Q But you're asking that again because now
you doubt it?
A Yes. As I said, I'm doubting anything
that Jackie told me that was -- that was
unsubstantiated by an outside source. Now I need
to verify.
Q Sitting here today, do you think you made
any mistakes in your reporting on "A Rape on
Campus"?
A In hindsight, I would do a lot of things
differently. Starting with, I would either not
include Jackie in the story, or I would have
relegated her to a very small role. There are
plenty of people in the article who I could have
led the story with, or who could have made the
10
same point that I was trying to make with the
11
article.
12
13
14
Q I'm not asking, in hindsight, what you

would have done differently.
I'm asking, as you sit here today, can you
15
identify any mistake that you made in writing "A
16
Rape on Campus"?
17
MS. McNAMARA: Objection. That is calling
18
for hindsight, but you can answer to the best
19
you can.
20
A Are you asking me to list my mistakes?
21
Q Yes.
22
A Well, I would have, I would have called
23
everybody. And one thing I learned from this is,
24
if somebody's trying to tell you not to call
25
somebody, then you have to try twice as hard to
[Page 310]
[Page 312]
Q And in this e-mail, you're really
questioning whether there, in fact, is a
and
are you not?
call that person.

Q Any other mistakes?
A I'd say that about covers it.
A Yes.
Q Do you think you breached any obligation

you have as a journalist to confirm their
(E-mail from Steve Coll to
existence before publication?
February 10, 2015 Bates stamped
8
9
Mischaracterization of the evidence that's in
10
the record.
10
11
A I, I made many efforts to try to reach out
11
12
to people who I thought were rape victims who were
12
Q Plaintiff's Exhibit 526 is an e-mail from

Steve Coll, at Columbia Journalism Review, to you
13
unwilling to share their stories. I -- knowing,
13
on February 10th, 2015.
14
also, as I did, that the administration itself was
14
15
trying -- and I knew this through Emily Renda,
15
16
that the administration was trying to get these
16
17
same people to come out of the woodwork, that's
17
Q Mr. Coll says, I hope you're well -- "I

hope you're well. Derek mentioned his
18
how reluctant they were to share their stories,
18
conversation with you about our request. I can
19
it's -- you know, it's very difficult to convince
19
readily understand your hesitations."
20
people to share their stories if they're not
20
21
willing to share their stories, if they're not
21
22
even willing to share their names.
Do you recognize this e-mail?

A Yes.
What was Columbia Journalism Review's

requests and your hesitation?
22
A They had asked to listen to any recordings
23
So, did I have an obligation to try every
23
that I had so that they could compare it with my
24
means to get in touch with them? I felt that I
24
notes and make sure it was accurate. And I told
25
did.
25
them that I would be happy to give it to them, but
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I didn't want to send it over the internet because
You know, I know what it's like to get
I was worried about security. So, we decided to
death threats and to be disparaged online and to
come up w ith a way where we didn't have to, you
be afraid for your safety. And, you know, and I'm

sorry that she suffered any of that.
know -- with a secure way for them to listen to
it.
6
7
Ms. Erdely, are you still employed by
6
7
Rolling Stone?
Q Tell me what it was like for you, after

you received death threat~.
A
Well, my family and I had to leave our
I was never employed by Rolling Stone.
home and we lived with friends for about a week,
Are you still a contributing editor for
moving arotmd tmtil we felt comfortable corning
10
Rolling Stone?
11
--
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back. T11ere was a death threat that was made
11
specifically against my children. And for a long
12
time, I was very afraid for our safety.
13
Q How did that make you feel?
14
15
Q So, you can empathize with what Dean Eramo
I mean, I still don't feel safe.
16
has been through; is that fair?
17
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Q Do you think you've been harmed as a
19
result of those death threats and your fear for
20
your safety?
Absolutely.
21
22
part.of it. I actually feel that-- it's hard to
23
separate out what did the most damage.
23
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25
I feel like the death threats were only a
But, in totality, this was just the most

devastating thing that's ever happened to me. T11e
[Page 314 ]
[ Page 3 16]
combination of feeling so blind-sided by something
that I felt. so sure of, it, it led me to just have
a crisis of confidence that was just magnified by
A _
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7
8
9
10
A.
the harassment that I got online, and the

isolation that I felt. And the death
compotmded that.. It made me feel like I was jtL~t
worthless.
Q Sitting here today, do you think you owe
MS. McNAMARA: ObjectioiL Other than what
11
threat~ jtL~t
Q Ifl asked you to put a price tag on that

damage, could you do so?
10
Dean Eramo an apology?
11
MS. McNAMARA: And I object and I instruct

her not to answer. That's an offensive
12
she's already provided?
12
questioiL She cannot put a price tag on
13
13
something like that, and do not ask her to do
14
Q Tell me why.
14
that..
15
15
I mean, yes.
I feel very sorry that she suffered as a
I'm actually really insulted that you
16
result of this article. I think that -- I
16
would, like, elicit this kind of reaction from me
17
actually don't think that it was an tmflattering
17
and then ask me a question like that.
18
depiction of her, the depiction that she seems to
18
think it is.
19
I feel very embarrassed to be crying in
19
front of you, and I don't appreciate you saying
20
But I am sorry that, that -- you know, I
20
something like that.
21
tmderstand that she, she suffered as a result., and
21
Q I'm going to ask the question, and I'm
22
that was never my intention. My intention was to
22
going to ask you to answer it, if you can put a
23
educate people, to do good. And I tmderstand that
23
price tag on how you felt. and the damage that you
24
she was -- she was hurt in variotL~ ways that, you
24
suffered as a result.
25
know, that I experienced after the article.
25
MS. McNAMARA: And I have the same
[Page 315]
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1
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objection.
doesn't have a counterclaim in this case.
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MR. CHEW: It's also irrelevant. She
MR. CHEW: How about a proffer of how her

damages are relevant to you?
MS. LOCKE: There is an argument in this
time is 6:36.
(Recess taken.)
The time is 6:45.
Q Ms. Erdely, when you spoke with Alex
Stock, did Mr. Stock express any reservations or

unwillingness to speak with you?
case that my client hasn't put forward a
calculation of damages. And I'm asking the
A He took a while to get back to me. It was
witness, whose already testified that she
10
kind of hard to pin him down. So, there -- it
sympathizes and has been damaged by the death
11
seemed as though there was some initial
12
threats and the feeling of lack of safety --
12
reluctance, but we did eventually speak.
13
MR. CHEW: She is not your client.
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MS. LOCKE: If she can put a price tag on
14
tell you, in words or substance, that he was
15
unwilling to talk to you?
16
A At that time, no.
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Q The same question for Kathryn Hendley.
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that.
And so I stand by my question.
Q Can you -MR. CHEW: Have you asked her whether she
18
When you spoke with Kathryn Hendley, did

she express any unwillingness to speak with you?
19
can put a price tag on the damages to your
19
20
client?
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You're asking about her. That's a

completely different question.
Q When you actually spoke with him, did he
21
22
A No.
Q After "A Rape on Campus," did you write
any more articles for Rolling Stone?
23
MS. LOCKE: And I'm entitled to ask it.
23
A Yes.
24
Q Can you put a price tag on the damage that
24
Q What article, articles, did you write?
25
A I wrote an article that was never
25
you felt?
[Page 318]
1
MR. CHEW: To who? To her or your client?
[Page 320]
1
A I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an accountant.
I don't know how a person -- I'm not an actuary.
I don't know how to calculate what the
published.
Q And what was the title of that article?
A It didn't have a title, but it was about
HIV.
damages are to a person who feels this. All I
Q Do you know why it was never published?
know is that, I am not suing anyone, so I don't
A No.
have to come up with that kind of calculation.
Q But if you had to, would you be able to?
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MS. McNAMARA: Objection. That's been

asked and answered.
11
You're not going to harass the witness
12
with this irrelevant question. She answered
13
14
15
16
Q Did you go through the full fact-checking

and editing process for it?
A It went through a round of editing, but it
10
did not go through the, the production process.
11
that question to the best of her ability and
13
you have your answer.
14
15
MS. McNAMARA: No. This is a harassing
MS. McNAMARA:
16
17
question at this point. It's an irrelevant and
17
18
harassing question, and I think the witness
18
19
answered it to the best of her ability, and you
19
20
can move on.
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MS. McNAMARA: Do you have anything to add
23
to your answer, Ms. Erdely?
24
A The answer is, I don't know.
25
22
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MS. LOCKE: Let's take a break.
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MS. McNAMARA: Do you understand that?
answer that question because it would require
you to disclose attorney-client communications.
Q Separate and apart from any conversations
that you've had with any of your lawyers, as you
sit here today, are you contemplating litigation
against Rolling Stone?
A Yes.
8
9
10
11
A Yes.
Q How much is that?
A
16
17
I mean, I think that -- you can answer it, but
I don't -- you can say, but I don't think you

have any communications outside of counsel.
Isn't that correct?
11
MR. CHEW: That's correct. I would
12
14
15
8
10
12
13
MS. McNAMARA: And I share that objection.
A Jason Fine.
Q And he is the current managing editor of
Rolling Stone; is that correct?
13
instruct you not to answer on that basis.
14
Q Is that correct?
15
A I'm not going to answer that question.
16
17
Q Who are your lawyers here today,

Ms. Erdely?
18
A Yes.
18
A Liz McNamara, Ben Chew.
19
19
Q When did you retain Mr. Chew?
20
A In December of 2014.
20
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.
?
Q
A
THE WITNESS: Is that right?
21
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.
?
Q
A
Q And for what purpose is Mr. Chew retained?

MR. CHEW: I would instruct you not to
23
24
answer that question.
25
Q Mr. Chew represents you individually; is
[Page 322]
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2
3
4
5
.
Q Is that it?
A Yes.
Q
[Page 324]
1
that correct?
A Yes.
MS. LOCKE: At this point, I think I am
3
4
very close to out of time.

We're going to reserve our right to reopen
?
.
this deposition with additional questions. But
under the rules of -- the default rules, my
seven hours has run. But, but that's all I
have for right now.
10
10
MS. McNAMARA: Thank you.
11
And I'll say on the record, before we go
12
off, that I don't know what basis there would
13
be to reopen. But if, if -- if there is an
14
attempt to reopen it, and we don't think that
15
there is a legitimate basis, we would oppose
16
it.
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A
.
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Q
A
Q
A
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Q
A
Q
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MS. LOCKE: Fair enough.
18
I have -- I have hundreds more documents,
19
and a lot more questions that I could ask, and
20
I have more questions of this witness, but
21
given that my time is up, then I'm going to,
22
I'm going to end for, for now.
23
MR. CHEW: Thank you.
24
25
MR. CHEW: I would instruct you not to
[Page 323]
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: That concludes today's

deposition.
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The time is 6:51.

(Time adjourned 6:51 p.m.)
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Exhibit 180 E-mail from Sabrina Rubin Erdely 113

dated August 31, 2014 Bates
stamped RESPJ00000018
to Emily Renda dated September 2,
2014 Bates stamped RENDA000871
through 872
Exhibit 370 E-mail from Jacqueline
to 116
RS018282 through 18288
19
20
21
22
Exhibit 218 Document Bates stamped RS118221 130

through 118345
to 131
23
24
25
Exhibit 361 Emily Renda's testimony before

Congress Bates stamped RS000109
through 109 00007
37
Exhibit 496 E-mail from

to
Sabrina Rubin Erdely dated June
41
Exhibit 195 "The Rape of Petty Officer

Blumer"
Exhibit 491 Article entitled "Intimate
Intimidation" by Sabrina Rubin
Exhibit 492 Article entitled "The Crime
Against Women That No One
Understands" by Sabrina Rubin
Erdely
Exhibit 493 Article entitled
44
"Sex, Lies and Phys Ed" by
Sabrina Rubin Erdely
Exhibit 494 Article entitled "The Catholic
Church's Secret Sex-Crime Files"
by Sabrina Rubin Erdely
Exhibit 218 Transcript Bates stamped RS118221 134

through 118345
[Page 328]
INDEX
WITNESS
EXAMINATION BY
PAGE
Sabrina Rubin Erdely Ms. Locke
4
PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
PLAINTIFF'S
PAGE
Exhibit 29 Independent Contractor Agreement 9
1106
Exhibit 89 Pitch for "A Rape on Campus"
13
Exhibit 387 Reporting file Bates stamped
20
2
3
Exhibit 419 E-mail from Sean Woods to Sabrina 142

Rubin Erdely dated September 11,
Exhibit 219 Transcript Bates stamped RS118346 143
through 118440
4
5
Exhibit 61 Transcript of interview with Sara 173

Surface Bates stamped RS012126
through 12153
6
7

to Sacha Lecca dated October 1,
10
Exhibit 306 E-mail from Sean Woods to Jodi 206

Peckman, Joe Hutchinson and Sacha
Lecca dated October 15, 2014
2302
11
12

to Sean Woods dated October 26,
13
43
43
17
18

to 109
Sabrina Rubin Erdely dated August
through 15315
to 109
through 17042
14
14
15
16
85
12
12
13
Exhibit 1 "A Rape on Campus" by Sabrina

Rubin Erdely Bates stamped
10
11

dated December 11, 2014 Bates
stamped RS020497
[Page 326]
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2
3
4
5
6

to 45
through 15091
44
14
15
16
17
Exhibit 66 Text messages between Sabrina 212

Rubin Erdely and Alex Pinkleton
14333
to Sacha Lecca dated October 24,
through 18960
18
19

Rubin Erdely dated October 24,
20
21
44
[Page 327]

to Jacqueline dated October 24,
2014 Bates stamped RESPJ00000232
22
23
24
25
Exhibit 67 Calls List Bates stamped RS014335 234

through 14358
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Exhibit 283 E-mail from Elisabeth Garber-Paul 245

Exhibit 48 E-mail from Melissa Bruno Bates 246

Exhibit 509 Transcript Bates stamped
249
ERAMO-04828 through 4873
and Notary Public of the State of New York, do
hereby certify:
That the witness whose examination is
Exhibit 461 Transcript Bates stamped

255
Exhibit 536 Notes from conversation after 266
publication of article Bates
Rubin Erdely dated December 1,
through 3091
hereinbefore set forth, was duly sworn, and
that such examination is a true record of the
testimony given by such witness.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
Exhibit 6 Columbia Journalism Review

article entitled "Rolling Stone's
Investigation: A Failure that was
avoidable" Bates stamped
270
17
18
19
22
23
I, AMANDA McCREDO, a Shorthand Reporter
10
I further certify that I am not related to any
11
of the parties to this action by blood or
12
marriage; and that I am in no way interested in
13
the outcome of this matter.
15

to Will Dana dated December 5,
through 283
Exhibit 517 E-mail from Chris Lisi to Melissa 284
Bruno dated December 5, 2014
7822
20
21
14
15
16
CERTIFICATE
Exhibit 518 E-mail from Melissa Bruno to

Taylor Shapiro dated December 5,
through 7828
Exhibit 399 Draft document Bates stamped
16
_______________
17
AMANDA McCREDO
18
19
20
21
285
22
23
288
24
24
25
25
[Page 330]
1
2
Exhibit 165 E-mail from Alexandria Pinkleton 296

Pinkleton-01167
3
4

Rubin Erdely dated December 11,
5
6
Exhibit 261 E-mail to Ryan Duffin from

Sabrina Rubin Erdely Bates
stamped Duffin-0171
299
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
Exhibit 266 E-mail from Ryan Duffin to

301
December 14,2014 Bates stamped
dated December 15, 2014 Bates
stamped RS019722
Exhibit 524 E-mail from Gerrit
to
305
RS015176
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

to Jacqueline
on December
through 19641
Exhibit 526 E-mail from Steve Coll to Sabrina 313
Rubin Erdely dated February 10,
[Page 332]
1
ERRATA SHEET FOR THE TRANSCRIPT OF:
Case Name:
Dep Date:
May 12, 2016
Eramo v Rolling Stone, et al
Deponent:
Sabrina Rubin Erdely
5
6
CORRECTIONS:
Pg Ln Now Reads
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
Should Read
Reason
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
10
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
11
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
12
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
13
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
14
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
15
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
16
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
17
___ ___ ______________ ________________ ______
18
______________________
19
Signature of Deponent
20
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME
21
THIS___DAY OF___________, 20__
22
23
______________________________
24
(Notary Public) MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:_________
25
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ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT
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I,
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8
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, do hereby
certify that I have read the foregoing

pages, and that the same is a correct
transcription of the answers given by me
to the questions therein propounded,
except for the corrections or changes in
form or substance, if any, noted in the
attached Errata Sheet.
______________________________
SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY
Subscribed and sworn to
before me on this_____ day
of ____________, ________.
_______________________________
Notary Public
[Page 334]
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Exhibit 5

Case 3:15-cv-00023-GEC Document 99-10 Filed 07/01/16 Page 1 of 86 Pageid#: 2533

ROLLING STONE LLC,

SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY

and WENNER MEDIA ,

Videotaped deposition of SABRINA RUBIN

was held at the Law Offices of DAVIS WRIGHT

1251 Avenue of the Americas, New

York, New York, commencing May 12, 2016 ,

on the above date, before Amanda McCredo, a Court

by a Notary Public of the State of New

York, was examined and testified as

Q Ms. Erdely, we met a few moments ago, and

Today I'm going to be asking you questions as part

DAVIS WRIGHT TREMAINE, LLP

Can you start by stating your name and

address for the record?

Q Have you ever been deposed before,

Q Okay. So, I want to explain some rules of

as possible for you and for me.

My job today is to ask you questions that

you can hear and that you can understand; is that

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the

videotaped deposition of Sabrina Rubin Erdely,

taken by the plaintiffs, in the matter of Eramo

question, that you heard me and you understood the

versus Rolling Stone filed in the U.S. District

question; is that fair?

Court, Western District of Virginia.

Today's deposition is being held at Davis

Wright, 1251 Sixth Avenue, New York, New York.

My name is Jim Brady, I'm the videographer.

Q I'm going to assume, if you answer the

Q If at any point during the day today, if

you would like to take a break, that's fine with

me, just let me know. The only thing that I'll

And today's court reporter is Amanda McCredo.

ask is that, if there is a question that's

We are both with U.S. Legal Support.

pending, that you answer the question before we

break; is that fair?

May I have the attorneys please introduce

themselves and for the court reporter to swear

MS. LOCKE: Libby Locke on behalf of

everything down that you and I both say, I will

plaintiff Dean Eramo, here with Andy Phillips

extend you the courtesy to allow you to finish

and Tom Clare, all from the law firm of Clare

your answer, and if you could extend me the

courtesy of allowing me to finish my question so

we don't talk over each other; is that fair?

MS. McNAMARA: Elizabeth McNamara, on

behalf of the defendants. And I'm here with

Ben Chew, who also represents the defendant,

Q One other thing, if you have a memory or

Sabrina Rubin Erdely. As well as Natalie

if something I say jogs your memory at any point

Krodel and Jenny Lazo from Wenner Media.

in the day and you want to change your testimony