True Position - GD&T Basics

7/17/2016
TruePosition|GD&TBasics
True Position (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/)
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urses/fundamentals)
better to use a Position tolerance and Basic Dimensions over locating your feature with a
coordinate dimension system.
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Using True Position vs Coordinate Dimensions
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This is the last timewe are
True
position
is
one
of
the
most
useful
and
most
complex
of
all
the
symbols
in
GD&T
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-symbols/). The two forms discussed on this page will be true position RFS
or Regardless of Feature Size (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/regardless-of-feature-size/) and true position for a
feature of size under a material condition (Maximum Material Condition (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/maximummaterial-condition/) or Least Material Condition (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/least-material-condition/)). However,
since this is such a useful symbol, we will continue to add content and examples for other uses of this nifty little
symbol in the coming months.
oering this incredible deal
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so be sure to purchase by the

end of July2016 to avoid missing
out!
Simply use
couponcode2016GDT40
when you sign up here
(http://course.gdandtbasics.
com).
GD&T
Symbol:
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/wpcontent/uploads/2014/11/true-position-symbol.jpg)
Relative to Datum:Yes
MMC or LMC applicable: Yes (common)
GD&T Drawing Callout:
True center position of a hole (RFS w/ 2 Datums)
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GD&T Symbols List
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/datum/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/trueposition/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/circularity/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/parallelism/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/cylindricity/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/pro le-
True position of a hole under MMC (3 Datums)
of-a-surface/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/runout/)
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(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/concentricity/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/perpendicularity/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/totalrunout/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/maximummaterial-condition/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/leastmaterial-condition/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/regardlessof-feature-size/)
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/featurecontrol-frame/)
Description:
True position is de ned as the total permissible variation that a feature can have from its true position. Depending
on how it is called out, true position can mean several di erent things. It can be used with Max Material
Condition(MMC), Least Material Condition (LMC), projected tolerances, and tangent planes. It may apply to
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everything from points to axes to planes to entire features. In these examples we will use holes, since these are the
most common types of features controlled by true position. Keep in mind though that true position can be used on
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/pro le- any feature.
of-a-line/)
Position is probably the most widely used symbol in GD&T. If you are looking for more information
about Position or any of the other symbols, you should check out our GD&T Fundamentals Course. If
youlikethesimplifiedapproachtoGD&Tonthiswebsiteandinthevideoabove,besuretocontactus
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(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/contact/)tolearnmoreaboutthecourse!
True Position Location of a Feature
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/straightness/)
True position in terms of the axis, point or plane de nes how much variation a feature can have from a speci ed
exact true location. The tolerance is a 2 or 3-Dimensional tolerance zone that surrounds the true location where a
feature must lie. Usually when specifying true position, a datum (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/datum) is
referenced with x and y coordinates that are basic dimensions (do not have tolerances). This means that you will
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/symmetry/)
have an exact point where the position should be and your tolerance speci es how far from this you can be. The
location is most often positioned with two or three datums to exactly locate the reference position. The true
position is usually called out as a diameter to represent a circular or cylindrical tolerance zone. (However, it can also
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/ atness/)be called out as a distance for X and Y coordinates as well see nal notes)
True Position using material conditions(MMC/LMC)

True position used with Maximum Material Condition becomes a very useful control. True position with a features
of size can control the location, orientation and the size of the feature all at once. MMCtrue position is helpful for
creating functional gauges that can be used to quickly insert into the part see if everything is within spec. While true
position on its own controls where the reference point locations need to lie, true position in MMC for a hole sets a
minimum size and positional location of the hole to maintain functional control. It does this by allowing a bonus
tolerance to be added to the part. As a part gets closer to the MMC, the constraints become tighter and the hole
must be closer to its position. But, if the hole is a bit larger (but still in spec), it can stray from its true position
further and still allow proper function (like a bolt passing though).
GD&T Tolerance Zone:

True Position Location of a feature
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A 2 dimensional cylindrical zone or, more commonly a 3-Dimensional cylinder, centered at the true position location
referenced by the datums.
The cylindrical tolerance zone would extend though the thickness of the part if this is a hole. For the 3-dimensional
tolerance zone existing in a hole, the entire holes axis would need to be located within this cylinder.
True Position using modiers(MMC/LMC)

The tolerance zone is the same as above except only applied in a 3D condition. A 3-Dimensional cylinder, centered
at the true position location referenced by the datum surfaces. The cylindrical tolerance zone would extend though
the thickness of the part if this is a through hole for the 3-dimensional tolerance zone similar to the RFS version.
While this is the tolerance zone, the call-out now references the virtual condition of the entire part. This means that
the holes position and size are controlled together as one. (see gauging section)
Gauging / Measurement:
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True position of a feature is made by rst determining the current referenced point and then comparing that to any
datum surfaces to determine how far o this true center the feature is. It is simpli ed like a dimensional tolerance
but can be applied to a diameter tolerance zone instead of simple X-Y coordinates. This is done on a CMM or other
measurement devices.
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/True-Position-Formula.jpg)
True Position Using material modiers(MMConly)

When a part is checked for true position under a feature of size speci cation, usually a functional gauge is used to
ensure that the entire feature envelope is within speci cation. If you have a speci cation for Maximum
Material Condition, the desired state is that a hole will not be too small, or a pin not too large. The following
formulas are used to create a gauge for true position under MMC.*
Gauging of an Internal Feature
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Gauging of an Internal Feature

For the true position under MMC of a hole:
Gauge (pin gauge)=Min of hole (MMC)-True Position Tolerance
Gauging of an External Feature
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Gauging of an External Feature

For true position under MMC of apin:
Gauge (hole gauge) = Max of pin (MMC) + True Position Tolerance
Locations of the gauge pins or holes are given on the drawing as basic dimensions. All gauge features should be
located in the datum true positions, but sized according to the formulas above.
Note on Bonus Tolerance:
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Note on Bonus Tolerance:

When a functional gauge is used for True Position, any di erence the actual feature size is from the maximum
material condition would be a bonus tolerance. The bonus tolerance for position then increases as the part gets
closer to LMC. The goal of a maximum material condition callout is to ensure that when the part is in its worst
tolerances, the True Position and size of the hole/pin will always assemble together. For instance, if you had a large
hole size but was still in tolerance (closer to LMC), you make more bonus tolerance for yourself making the true
position tolerance larger. You can now have the hole center more out of position due to the bonus tolerance.
Bonus Tolerance = Di erence between MMC & Actual condition.
Confused? No worries! For more detail on how bonus tolerances play into these callouts, see our sections on
Maximum Material Condition (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/maximum-material-condition). Or check out
our GD&T Course (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/), where we go into deep detail on the
position symbol!
Relation to Other GD&T Symbols:

True position is closely related to symmetry (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/symmetry/) and concentricity
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/concentricity/) as they both require the location of features to be controlled.
However, True position is more versatile since it can be called on a feature of size or combined with other geometric
tolerances to specify an entire part envelope.
True Position using features of size (MMC/LMC)

True
position
with
used
of
MMC
or
LMC
is
related
to
axis
perpendicularity
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/perpendicularity/) when used on a hole or pin. The tolerance of both

perpendicularity and true position now refers to the uniformity and cylindrical envelope of a central axis. However
with true position you can make the tolerance referenced to several datums as opposed to just one with axis
perpendicularity. When you callout true position using datums on the face, and sides of the part perpendicularity
is controlled as well. See example 2 for more details.
When Used:
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When Used:
In example 1 you can see how a hole can be called out using true position. However this can also be applied to
anything in need of a location tolerance, such as a pin, a boss or even an edge of a part. When you have a hole in a
part such as a bolted surface, true position is usually called out. It can be used almost anywhere to represent any
feature of size.
True Position using material condition(MMC/LMC)

True position of a feature of sizeunder MMC is used when a functional gauge is ideal for checking the part. True
position is also useful for describing and controlling a bolt pattern for a pipe tting or a bolted xture. If you specify
the control using MMC, it allows you to have a pin gauge that you can insert into the part to see if the bolt pattern is
functionally accurate. You will see true position called with MMC very commonly in bolt patterns where relative
location of all the bolts and necessary clearance is critical. LMC with true position is a little less common, but often
used when minimum wall thickness is desired.
True Position Location of Hole Example 1:

Four holes are to be located on a block to ensure contact is always maintained and located within a speci c
position. The holes need to line up with the threaded connections in the mating part.
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(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/08-True-Position-Example-1.jpg)
The True position callout on a block
With true position called out the holes do not need to be in exact positions as shown below, but their centers can
vary by the amount speci ed by the tolerance. The basic dimensions (dimensions in the squares) are un-toleranced
and describe the true location the hole would be in if it was perfect. In a 2D check of the upper right hole, the true
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location would be 40 mm from datum A and 40 mm from datum B. The holes center is calculated, usually by a CMM
and compared to the true location. As long as the holes center is in the blue tolerance zone of 0.2 mm speci ed by
the feature control frame, the part is in tolerance.
Note: in this case, the surface of the part is called out (Datum C). This means the entire hole must have its axis align
with the datum. The tolerance zone would actually ensure that the location and the perpendicularity is within the
speci ed tolerance. Since all the central points at any cross section are controlled by true position, the parts axis
(line between all central points) would be controlled for orientation.
The biggest thing to note about this design is that no matter what size hole you have, your true position would
always have to be the same. This is ideal for when proper exact alignment is required for function of the part. It
does, however, remove the possibility of using a functional gauge.
True Position Hole size and location using MMC
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True Position Hole size and location using MMC

Example 2:
Taking the same example, the true position can also be speci ed with a maximum material condition callout. This
means you are now controlling the envelope of the entire hole feature, including the size of the hole throughout its
entire depth.
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Adding the little M makes a big di erence.
With an MMC callout you now can use a functional gauge to measure this part, to determine that the size and
geometric tolerancing are within spec at the same time.
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Formula for a the functional gauge to measure the true position of all holes:
Individual Pin Diameters = Min hole -True position tolerance (bonus)
This example Pin = 9.9 0.2 = 9.7
Location of pins: Same speci cations
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This would be the go gauge that would measure for hole size, orientation and position. The part would be pressed
down onto the gauge and if it ts the part is in speci cation. Notice that datum A, B and C are all included in the
gauge to check the location of the hole. The desired function of the part is metby ensuring that the part touches all
the datums, and that the gauge pins are able to fully go through the holes.
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Top view of the part once inserted into pin gauge

As long as the gauge can go into the part, it is in spec. This makes it very easy to accurately gauge the part right on a
production line. The function of the part is con rmed because as long as the surface that the part is bolted to has
the same tolerances, it will always t.
Final Notes:
Bonus Round
Remember the further you are from MMC when it is referenced in the feature control frame, the more bonus
tolerance you are allowed. For a hole, the larger the diameter, (closer to the LMC) the more bonus tolerance you
have for your true position.
Bonus tolerance = true position tolerance (measured hole size MMC hole size)
Note: Keep in mind the opposite is true for a positive feature like a pin, where the smaller the pin means you have
more bonus tolerance.
Called with or without the symbol

There are two ways true position can be called out either as a distance, in X and Y or most commonly as a
diameter. When true position is called out as a distance, you are permitted to move from the tolerance in X or Y
direction by the allowed

tolerance.
However when done this way, the tolerance zone actually forms a square. This is
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usually undesirable since in the corners of the square are further from the center than the sides. This also removed
over 57% of your tolerance zone!Most commonly, true position with reference to location is called with the
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diameterGD&T
() symbol
to be called as a cylindrical or circular tolerance zone.
|
SlottedFeatures:
Another common way true position can be called out is with slotted features. If you have a slot in your part that
must always be located correctly, you can use true position to ensure that each of the planes that make up the slot
are always located in the correct position. Symmetry can also be used in this case but only if the slots have a
referenced datum plane that they are symmetrical about (and measuring symmetry is very di cult!).
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Circularity (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/circularity/) Datums in GD&T (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/datum/)
Related Posts
92 Comments
Jorge Mustelier says:

|
May 6, 2015
at 2:12 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-583)
| About Us (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/about-us/)
it is wonderful, I learn a lot every day

|
Thank
Reply (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/?replytocom=583#respond)
geisstc (http://www.gdandtbasics.com) says:

May 6, 2015 at 8:26 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-584)
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Thanks for the comment. Glad you like the site!

Loi Hinh says:

Me too, thank you so much. I now know what true position mean. Great websites.

Thanks! More to come!

Christopher Wood says:
November 4, 2015 at 1:45 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-629)
| About
Throwing
in aUsDITTO!
I am a MET student and this site is WAY better than my book. Clean, functional,
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/about-us/)
and with good explainations! You all rock! Thanks for a great resource!
|
GDandT Basics (http://www.gdandtbasics.com) says:

November 18, 2015 at 8:56 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-638)
Glad to hear it. Thanks! We are rolling out a training program for students in at universities soon. If
you are looking to put GD&T on your Resume/CV be sure to check out our Training Page
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/). Thanks for the kind words!
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Sheel says:
The website is awesome and provides a lot of help to students.


Glad to be of help! Tell your fellow students to check us out, we are always looking to help students learn
as much GD&T as possible before they work professionally.
jorge mustelier says:
July 28, 2015 at 7:49 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-608)
I would like to have more information about simultaneous requirements.

|
| About
It would be good
appretiate
it
|

August 3, 2015 at 2:50 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-610)
Simultaneous requirements are a useful thing to learn, but does not come us as much as some of the other
material, such as MMB and datum reference frames. We are nishing up our GD&T Fundamentals course
now, and will be releasing an advanced course that will cover this in the future. Thanks for the suggestion
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though, its good to know what information people are looking for.
Jorge Banderas says:

This is great! Quick question: Our CMM is capable to provide True Position but its not asking for actual X and Y
values. I guess the algorithm the machine is woring with is not the true position we are looking at. Any thoughts?

I have never used a CMM myself but true position can be described in X&Y coordinates (for a rectangular
tolerance zone) or as a diameter (for a circular tolerance zone). Either way is acceptable. Hope this helps!
Bob says:
|
| About
Us pm
May 19, 2015
at 12:30
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-588)
Question: I have a slot that is Datum C but it is dimensioned like this: true pos 0.3(M) A B C (this way is datum C),
|
this means this is the way it is aligned so how can you give this positional tolerance?
The other way is the same but it makes sense as it is giving asking you the true position of the slot from Datum B.
I would like to make sure that Im not missing anything.
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If you have a datum that is constraining the part but it is say on the face of the hole or pin instead of the sides,
you are controlling the orientation (perpendicularity) in a addition to the location (the two datums on the side) of
the feature. I hope this helps!
Weng says:
May 22, 2015 at 9:43 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-591)
I think I see an error in the formula used to calculate true position. It should be ( (ActualX TrueX)^2 +(ActualY
TrueY)^2)^1/2
The formula given has ActualY + TrueY, but it should be minus (-) not plus (+).
Yep youre right.

Confusing Typo. Ill get that xed right away. Thanks for pointing this out!
marula says:
Useful web site. I want know mmc for hole or x&y axis
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bill-t says:
With the gauge, you could easily be checking to BAC instead of ABC, as theres no
instruction or even any way of aligning to datum A rst.
You could insert the part and slide it down datum B instead
( either by accident , or design ).

Yes all gauging must have instructions or a method to use. This is just a basic overview to understand the
concept of gauging for a very simple part. The instructions would have to state that you pin the part to datum A,
then B and slide it down to datum C. The datum order does matter, and we will be covering this in a future
article. Thanks for the comment!
Bob says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:43 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-596)

|
Under true position location of a feature there is a statement that: this formula must be less than the diametral
position tolerance. I think the formula needs to result in less than one half of the position tolerance for that part to
be within speci cation. In other words, you calculated a vector distance from true to actual center. The positonal
tolerance being diametral is 2x the max radial vector distance.
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You are right there should be a 2 in front of the radical symbol to make it diametric. Thanks for pointing this
out!
ajun says:
June 29, 2015 at 1:36 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-598)
is it possible to give dimensional tolerance to the cordinates to locate the hole, after applying the position tolerance
to the hole
or we should give basic dimension or not ???
The beauty of true position is the use of basic dimensions. You are specifying exactly where the perfect nominal
|
feature should|beAbout
thenUs
simply
saying how far o of that perfect location your feature can go to be in spec. You
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showing
how the part should be measured and controlled. You also have the bene t with true position of having
would not put true position on a dimensional tolerance, because you are already specifying your position with
your dimensions. The bene t of true position is that you are giving a clear nominal point, and by using datums,
a circular tolerance zone, thus giving you a little more functional tolerance than with the square tolerance zone
that exists with X and Y dimensions.
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Chris says:
Is there have any section talking about virtual condition/resultant condition in this site?

Check out our page on Max Material Condition (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/maximum-material-condition/).

We talk about how gauges are developed around the virtual condition that arise from the bonus tolerances.
Chris says:
Thanks,
GD&T
I love Training
this site,Course
this is(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/)
best website about GD&T Ive ever see. It makes thing simple.
Kelly says:
When creating a true position for a hole back to another hole, you need two datums in order to do this, correct?
Im trying to control the centers of the two holes to be the same, and its my understanding that you need at least 2
datums to do so.
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July 18, 2015 at 10:21 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-606)
You can chain basic dimensions o each other as long as they can be referenced to an original datum at some
point. If these holes are concentric or coaxial, you can actually call out one of the holes as a datum, and then give
the true position of the one hole to the other (as long as your datum hole is also controlled in some way)
Genevieve (http://cqiljrrsfa.com) says:

Yeah, thats the tiktec, sir or maam

Pramote K. says:
Dear Sir,
|
Pls share and advice about Tru position without Symbol Diameter
|Tru position | 4.3 |G|
Sorry , i| cant
paste
some
photo
of it.
GD&T
Course
Login
(http://course.gdandtbasics.com/courses/fundamentals)
Regards.
MOte.
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7/17/2016

in some conditions you can give true position as a location of a plane or surface. Usually it is better to use pro le
for these cases, without seeing the print my guess is that your true position of the line or plane needs to be 4.3
with respect to datum G.
Chuck B. GDTP-Senior says:

You are using the term True Position to mean Position. True Position is the theoretically exact location of a
feature of size as established by basic dimensions. The Position tolerance of a feature of size is speci ed relative to
the True Position. I realize that the metrology eld has historically mis-used the term True Position to mean
Position, but that is beginning to change.

|

POSITION
tolerance is at 0.4. I think it is merely semantics though as if someone referred to a true position, you
According to the ASME y14.5 True Position is the name given to the tolerance symbol labeled with the crosshair
symbol. If the machining world you SHOULD say that the TRUE POSITION is a speci c coordinate or that the
would understand that it is the exact point, but the true position tolerance would be the tolerance zone or
range. If we are going by the ASME though, it appears to always refer to the tolerance as position and the
speci c location as the true position. Great comment that got me thinking about this!
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Chuck B. GDTP-Senior says:

December 24, 2015 at 3:44 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-666)
The name that ASME Y14.5 gives the cross-hairs symbol is Position. As of ANSI Y14.5-1973, the name of that
symbol was changed from True Position to Position to be in agreement with world wide nomenclature.
Correct terminology is extremely important in GD&T. Please dont confuse people with obsolete terminology.
GMGGDT says:
Example: |TP|0.6|A (SL)|B|

Can someone tell me what the (SL) indicates?
Not sure, the SL is new for me. I am not sure if it is (S)(L) which do counteract eachother. S is the old symbol for
|
RFS (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/regardless-of-feature-size/)
| About Us (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/about-us/)and L stands for Least Material Condition
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/least-material-condition/) when used on its own. The two used together though
would be counter-intuitive so I am not sure.
|
Pramoth Kumar says:

August 21, 2015 at 4:32 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-614)
Nice article about position tolerance. I will recommend this website to everyone
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7/17/2016

September 4, 2015 at 9:34 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-618)
Thank you! We are hoping to add a bunch more to the site once we nish our GD&T Basics course up.
R.ARUN says:
August 26, 2015 at 7:31 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-615)
ok thanks.
Stewart Coote (http://Fastenerwarehouse.ca) says:
Good Morning gentlemen,

|
The information I |amAbout

learning
so far is invaluable. The last couple of weeks we are seeing more and more of these
drawings( Datums and Callouts) presented to us. Now we dont have a CCM machine at the present time. Our only
measuring devices are Mitutoyu calipers. Can this measuring device be used for this application? Should we be
investing in a CCM machine to properly perform the tests? Thank you

Stewart
31/55
7/17/2016

Thank you so much for the kind words! For measuring certain types of call-outs you need special equipment. For
instance, measuring the parallelism of a plate, only requires a granite slab and a dial gauge. However if you are
measuring the pro le of a car hood, you will probably need more sophisticated equipment. A CMM is the
ultimate measuring tool. Given enough time to measure, there really isnt anything it cannot specify. Calipers on
the other hand are really only good for measuring distance. You may be able to roughly measure some
geometry, but not very accurately. In November we are releasing our GD&T Basics course. We go through each
symbol and talk about what type of equipment is typically used in the industry to measure for it. Check out our
training page (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/) if you are interested in learning more. Thanks for the
great question!
Master says:
September 29, 2015 at 5:09 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-620)
You should be investing in CMM Machine. I am a programmer for CMM and it really helps in out inspection.
| GD&T Training Course (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/)
GD&T Basics (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/) currently
we have 18 CMM machine used for inspection.
|
vishnu says:
In general, the position tolerance of the Hole 2 mm is applicable individually to A, B and C datum separately
Which mean the position tolerance of the Hole 2 mm can vary individual from each datum A , B and C separately??
32/55
7/17/2016

Not really the position of the hole is taken when you constrain the part along datum A, B and C, Then you
would measure the location to determine the location. It is with reference to all three datums the the 6 degrees
of freedom (X,Y,Z and rotational x, y,z) are controlled
RamiTSC says:
September 30, 2015 at 7:39 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-622)
Ive just forwarded this page to my colleagues in the quality department with this message: the content of this page
is not for learning but to be tattooed.
October 2, 2015 at 8:55 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-623)
My favorite comment yet! Thanks

|
RAUL says:
October 6, 2015 at 3:14 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-624)
EXCELENTE INFORMACION.!!
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S. D. says:
October 16, 2015 at 11:49 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-625)
If I place a position tolerance on a bolt hole around a nozzle bore, and reference the i.d. of the bore as one datum
and the bottom surface as the other, will this control the angles between the bolt holes as well?

October 25, 2015 at 2:59 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-626)
Yes your surface datum, combined with the position tolerance will act just as a perpendicularity tolerance. Your
cylindrical tolerance zone will be directly perpendicular to the bottom surface, and your hole axis will need to fall
within this cylinder. Great Question!
gkhan odaba says:
thank you for the all info.

|
I have a question; | About Us (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/about-us/)


or I have
to calculate with another formula?
if I want to know true position of a circle wrt to only one DATUM A (which is a also circle)
then, still the same formula valid? ie, 2*sqrt(xdif2+ydif2)
thanks
34/55
7/17/2016

Yes it is the same formula when calculating from X,Y components to Position tolerance. Good question.
Brian says:
I usually see True Position explained with hole positions and such. But how about for 2 at surfaces in di erent
areas? For example Datum A and Surface2 are supposed to be co-planar within 0.001. But they do not touch, they
are separated by other features.
One tricky thing about this is True Position does not tell you they are on the same plane, it just tells you Surface2 is
only so far o of its nominal position, when compared to Datum A no? If they were not on the same plane, then it
would be easier because I could smack a dimension on Surface2 with on leader to Datum A (a zero dimension is
awkward).
GD&T Training
Course
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/)
I also| considered
using
Straightness,
but that does not seem quite right. Im tempted to simply put a note after the
True Position GD&T indicating Surface2 is ON DATUM A. Also Id be inclined to just use one Datum Reference [A] in
the Tolerance block.
|
Appropriate use of True Position? Thanks, Brian

|

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7/17/2016
This is actually a secondary use of Pro le. If you call both surfaces with Pro le (and no datum) they need to be
located and within the form tolerance between them.
Psition cannot control surfaces, only features of size (holes, spins, slots tabs) You are looking to us Pro le to do
this which can control the size, location orientation and form of surface elements.
Great question! We are going to add this as a separate page to the Pro le of a Surface page soon to clarify this.
cmagill says:
Ive been using GD&T for years and pretty much understand every thing thrown at me until now. I have a part with
several features and several datums. For this question Ill simplify it to the area of concern. I have a plane that is
datum A. There is an ID cylinder that runs perpendicular to A and theyre calling it datum B. A side wall of this
part is datum C. There are several features that are positioned to A/B/C in that order, including a bolt circle which
lays in the A plane. My question is, with B being secondary, how can it be a cylinder that is perpendicular to A?
The way I understand it, the B alignment will try to pull the orientation from the A plane which cant happen.
First, I thought there was an engineering mistake but I have seen several drawing like this recently so it must be me
missing something. Can you help?
GDandT
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com) says:
GD&T
Course Basics
Login (http://course.gdandtbasics.com/courses/fundamentals)
Think of the datums as the ways of securing this in a frame. You would rst secure your A datum ush on the
bottom preventing the part from moving along the Z axis (the cylinder axis) and preventing the part from rocking
back and forth (3 Degrees of freedom) Your B Datum would then control the amount of location from the part
could shift in any X&Y direction (2 DOF). Datum C is last secured to prevent the part from spinning around the Z
axis (1DOF). You now have your part secured in all 6 degrees of freedom. Now you would determine how your
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bolt hole orients itself in 3D space. It would have to be perpendicular to Datum A. And only Located to Datum B
and C. When using a perpendicular datum, like A in this case, Position controls the perpendicularity. The B and C
establish where the perpendicular hole should be located in space. I hope this is what you are asking.
Ramtin says:
is it possible to have 2 location call outs for a feature?

Ramtin says:
I understand it is possible to have di erent call out back to di erent datum but other than that is it possible?

|
| About 18,
GD&T Symbols (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-symbols/)November
Us 2015
at 8:53 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-636)
If one is a re nement of the other it is possible. Example, You can have a 0.5 Position tolerance to A, B & C.
|
Then a tighter 0.2 Position tolerance to A & B only. This way you are saying that the second tolerance needs
to be met within the rst tolerance. It is called a composite control.
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Ram says:
Hi,
Can you please let me know what is the correlation between the size tolerance value and true position tolerance
value for a feature of size? Whether the true position tolerance value must always be less than the size tolerance
value of a feature of size? If true then why so?

There is no correlation and the two tolerances can be independent. It all comes down to what you require for
function. If you are trying to alight two holes with tight tolerances, your true position tolerance must be
somewhat tight. However if you are locating a hole where a hose or wire must go through. You may have a tight
tting tolerance but a fairly loose position tolerance.
Andrew says:
The image
for the
formula
true position and actual position is confusing. The formula makes sense if the
| GD&T
Course
Logincomparing
goal is to get the distance of the positions by getting square root of x and y coordinate di erences. If 2 means
square root symbol, the 2 is not necessary since its usually omitted if the root is a square root. The root
identi cation is only needed if other order of roots like cubic root . If the formula stands as it is, it would seem to
mean 2 x and twice the tolerance as indicated.
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Matt Derr says:

Hello The dot is commonly used as a multiplication symbol in most engineering formulas to remove the x
from the equation. The x could be interpreted as the letter x as a variable so the dot is used in its place. The
correct formula is 2 times the square root of the distances.
David (http://wilseytool.com) says:

I have a customer that requires true position of a diameter on an end of a shaft from datum A which is a di erent
diameter on the other end of the shaft.
The datum and the diameter feature are considered theoretical centerlines correct? And measured as such (RFS)?
Should this requirement be shown best as a true position call out or concentricity or maybe runnout?
Nice website, positive information!
Matt Derr says:

|
Position could be the correct way as it would ensure that the axis of the diameter feature is coaxial to the datum
axis (within the position tolerance diameter). Runout and Concentricity are more than just making a part coaxial.
Runout would be controlling the coaxiality and the circularity of the diameter feature. Concentricity is also
controlling coaxiality but it making sure that the form of the diameter is evenly distributed. Concentricity is
unnecessary 95% of the time since it is controlling the distribution of the surface and is not often functionally
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required. Runout on the other hand would be useful if the diameter feature was rotating and making contact
with another part. Runout is called a combined control because it can control the position of the axis (coaxiality)
but also control the form (circularity).
Denis says:
December 1, 2015 at 5:30 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-663)
Hello,
Thank you for the information. It is always helpful.
The only thing you might want to add is a de nition of the oating datum system, there TED (theoretically exact
dimension) is only indicated between two or more features (without any reference to datum).
In this case you must not use datum letters in tolerance de nition and none of the relative degrees of freedom
between TED and rest of the part is locked.
Best regards,
Denis
Matt Derr says:
Yes that is true Position does not require datums if you are trying to align a theoretically exact dimension on
something like a coaxial shaft. Great Point.
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Yanaki Hristov says:

December 7, 2015 at 1:50 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-664)
Hello everyboby,
I have a question. What is a tolerance zone when the true position is within diameter symbol? May be the form of
tolerance zone is square?
In the ISO 1101:2012 this case is it not clear. .
I have many cases in my everyday practice us metrology specialist.
Best regards,
Yanaki Hristov
GDandT Basics says:

January 28, 2016 at 8:42 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-670)
Whe the symbol is used, the axis of the part or hole must lie within a cylindrical tolerance zone = to the . This
cylinder is located at the basic dimension location.
GDandT Basics says:

|
If you calculate the X,Y coordinates away from the True Position, you would get your limit, however it would
be the radial distance away from the center. Since Position is measured as a diameter you need to multiply
by two to get the equivalent Position tolerance. Even though you are only 0.1 away from the target, you
would have need a 0.2 position tolerance for the part to be acceptable.
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yohan ponnampalam says:

February 24, 2016 at 2:05 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-673)
we have a pin thats 2 inches long and the O/dia is datum A. One side wall is Datum B and have a hole at 1.000Basic
drilled thru from B. The true position call out is .003 M|A|B and .001M|A. My question is how would we
measure\calculate this on the marble with the high gauges? im under the impression that I could calculate the
.001M|A by the ip op method on a V-block(has to be less than .002 total) and the .003M|A|B by measuring the
location of the hole from datum B and calculating the di erences on the location and ip op? Is this correct.
PLease advice,
thanks
Matt Derr says:

Something like this would be fairly hard to measure without any computer based measuring. For the Datum AB
(top) the design intent allows for a functional gauge to be used (since the MMC symbol is used) This would mean
would
SetupCourse
a xture
to secure the pin and go perfectly center at datum A, and then butt up against datum
| GD&T
GD&T Basics (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/) you
Training
B. You would then take a gauge pin at this exact location (centered to datum A and 1.000 from B) that would
simulate the mating part. This gauge pin would be at the hole size 0.003 ( to allow for a bonus tolerance) If
|
|
the gauge pin tsAbout
then Us
the(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/about-us/)
position is met. For the second position callout, you would secure datum A, but not B.
You would then have a gauge pin secured exactly center. This gauge pin would be at the hole size 0.001. If you
|
want
know
moreLogin
about
functional gauging we cover this in our fundamentals course. Learn more at
| to
GD&T
Course
http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/ (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/) Great question!

Prashanth says:
March 1, 2016 at 10:14 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-677)
42/55
7/17/2016
But how to measure it without CMM? I have a PCD of 76mm dia for threaded hole M6 with position tolerance 0.15
to the axis. How can i measure this without CMM.
GDandT Basics says:

March 17, 2016 at 8:34 pm (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-688)
Threaded holes are a gray area for functional gauging. on one hand, you can actually measure the minor
diameter of a hole using a simple gauge pin setup. However to truly ensure that the pitch is located correctly
requires the use of a more advanced setup.
Mikko (http://www.r-sarkon.) says:

(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/) May 24, 2016 at 11:00 am (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-737)
Hello,
can i| send
drawingCourse
to you(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/)
and you can tell me how to measure this or is it even possible to use GTE like this.
GD&Ta Training
Thing is about true position with two datums. But these datums are paraller to each other. Round part with a
|

About Usare
eccentric hole. The| datums
the outer diameter and the eccentric hole.
I have never seen this kind of tolerancing before.

|
Best regards, Mikko.
Matt Derr (http://www.gdandtbasics.com) says:

43/55
7/17/2016
Mikko Sure, send it along. Well take a quick look at it, your question may prove a valuable learning example for
others. My address is [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])
David says:
This is probably a stupid question, but Ill never know if I dont ask. In laymans terms, is true position not the
distance the actual center is from the true center? I dont understand why,in the formula, you multiply your answer
by two? I hate doing something on blind faith. It helps when I understand why I am doing something.
GDandT Basics says:

True position is the diametric zone that the axis of the part should like within. Since it is a diameter it is dual
sided and the formula needs to divide by 2 to go from a radius to a diameter. Hope this helps!
|
|
Ivan says:
|
Hi im starting to learn GD&T and have one question, whats the meaning if the control frame hasnt the
symbol for a hole??? in the work the trainer calls it lineal position and erase the rst number 2 in the
formula but in my opinion only make the result radial, can you explain if this is correct or we are
misunderstanding the position tolerance.
English isnt my natal language, sorry if the message contains mistakes
44/55
7/17/2016

Ivan
Welcome aboard! I hope you are nding the website material helpful in your studying. First, please be
aware that there are slight di erences between the ISO standards for GD&T and those speci ed in ASME
Y14.5. At GD&T Basics we primarily focus on the ASME standard, so our explanations are centered around
this. I have a copy of the ISO standard and it appears that when you have a positional tolerance (without
the dia symbol) applied to a circular hole, you are able to control the tolerance in two directions that are
orthogonal to one another. The tolerance zone in the feature control frame is telling you that the
extracted (actual) median line of the hole must be contained within two pairs of parallel planes positioned
apart by a distance equal to the value of the tolerance in the direction speci ed and perpendicular to
each other. Both pairs of planes are oriented relative to the datum reference frame and symmetrically
disposed about the theoretically exact position of the considered hole. I hope this helps.
Bill says:
|
| at
About
July 7, 2016
1:29 pm
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com/true-position/#comment-783)
Hello, and thank you for this awesome resource! Wondering if you can help me out on this: The company I work for,
|
one of their core manufacturing processes is laser cutting and subsequent press-brake air bending (a secondary
process that can be ignored for the sake of this question). I am in the process of trying to steer our drafting
department into the world of GD&T. In doing so, I want to establish a general tolerance (title-block tolerance) for
both the pro le of the part, and the true position of holes, based on the CAD le. The pro le is a piece of cake, since
it does not have to rely on predetermined datums. However, how can I convey the true position of interior holes &
features, based solely on the CAD le as master, without assigning speci c datums? And preferably without getting
thrown into GD&T jail. Thanks for any input on this!
45/55
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Bill
Welcome and excellent question! I work in aerospace defense and while we dont have anything in the title block
regarding position we frequently add a note that reads like: All surfaces de ned by basic dimensions shall be
surface pro le tolerance optional datums A/B/C. Similarly, we do the same thing for holes All circular
features to to be position tolerance MMC datum A/B/C. Recall that, unlike pro le, position requires the use
of datum(s). Also, keep in mind that without a datum callout, pro le only controls form.
My suggestion would be to go into your company drawing template and add stock notes, that the individual
designer has to ll out for each part. Im assuming you probably have some version of this already in your design
room manual (ex. Note 1 always calls out material, Note 2 always calls out nish etc.).
Alternatively, if your company is leaning towards migrating to DPD (Digital Product De nition) drawings you
could place an explanation in your companys command media for Interpretation of DPD Drawings that
accompanies the drawing and model to the vendor. This document could then specify for certain types of
|
features which datums to use with a position tolerance in the drawing title block. This route seems much more
fraught with complications and opportunities for mistakes, however.
I hope Ive given you some ideas to work towards a solution that will work for your company!
|
Bill says:
46/55
7/17/2016
Thank you Matt, de nitely some food for thought here! Problem is, our parts are not de ned by basic
dimensions, but rather the CAD le itself (more speci cally, a DXF that is generated from the 2D drawing).
Hopefully someday well get to the point where we utilize DPD on our models, but were not there yet. Our
at parts are complex enough that full dimensioning is not practical (not to mention unnecessary), but I still
want to convey a certain dimensional expectation, based on the CAD le, not basic dimensions. It would have
to control not only the surface pro le of individual cutout features, but also their location. Im not even sure
this is doable, but the alternative is to supply fully-dimensioned drawings to our vendors. I also did aerospace
for a few years (Sikorsky), and I used to see notes that referenced CAD MODEL IS MASTER, but I dont know
to what extent this actually controlled anything.

Bill I think you are most of the way there. Some other notes youll nd on our DPD prints, to list a few.
1. This drawing does not fully de ne the product.
2. The model does not fully de ne the product.
3. Training
All dimensions
obtained from the model are to be considered basic.
GD&T
Course (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-training/)
4. Interpret drawing and model per XYZ Digital Product De nition Standards
5. All surfaces are to be held to pro le control
5(alternate). All surfaces de ned by basic dimensions are to be held to pro le control
6. All cylindrical features are to be controlled by position control
My companys general philosophy regarding what dimensions to include on a part and what to leave o :
Generally: De ne the outline of the part for simple parts Width/Height/Length
1. De ne all datums used in feature control frames
2. Specify on the drawing controls for all critical features or those that mate with other parts
3. Callout controls for all threaded features (studs, tapped holes, helicoils, nutplates etc.)
47/55
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Things like chamfers, radii, non critical holes, diameters, skin thicknesses etc. we leave to be obtained
from the model. The important point here is that there are no dimensions or tolerances called out in the
model. We attach a .stp 203/214 le to the pdf version of the drawing. This may not be the optimal way to
do it, but it seems to work for us.
If this is something you are interested in pursuing check out ASME Y14.41-2003 (Digital Product De nition
Data Practices). Grab the bull by the horns Bill, be the agent of change.
Jim Weirich says:

I have a problem, 2630 Basic ( this is exact position of a hole in a tube),it is controlled by True Position to Datum A
.008. Datum A is the OD of tube .250 dia. How do I gure tolerance zone of Basic angle from a Dimensional callout? I
am using an Optical Comparator to inspect.
GD&T Training
Course
Matt Derr
(http://www.gdandtbasics.com)
says:
Jim
Datum A as you have it de ned for your part is the central axis of the tube. Your hole is located at a theoretically
|
exact angle from this center line of 26.5 degrees. Note that the theoretically exact centerline of your line
intersects with datum A. It is about this theoretically exact line that the diametral tolerance of .008 applies.
As for inspection with an optical comparator what comes to mind is to place a gage pin of appropriate diameter
in the hole and then place them both in the comparator. If your drawing is dimensioned how I think it is (with an
angle and an o -set distance) you should be able to verify this on the comparitor.
48/55
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Weighing the actual location of the pins centerline vs the geometric tolerance should be straightforward from
this point. You would treat it the same as you would with orthogonal thru holes in a at plate.
Keep in mind Im not an expert when it comes to inspection equipment, so things may not work out quite the
way I envision. This should at least give you a few ideas of which direction to head down.
I hope this helps, let us know what you actually end up settling on. We want to keep the forums here healthy and
active with useful information.
Matt
Patrick says:
Hello,
I am just curious how an LMC/MMC modi er a ects true position in an Inner and Outer Boundary calculation.
Thank you!
|

|
Patrick
Yikes, delving into some more complicated material here. First, in the 2009 standard the terms Inner and Outer
Boundaries are done away with. The new terminology is Maximum and Minimum Material Boundary (MMB and
LMB respectively). The symbols (circle M and circle L), application and interpretation of the meaning remain the
same between the 1994 and 2009 standards.
49/55
7/17/2016
Important! MMB and LMB do NOT provide bonus tolerance in the same manner that MMC and LMC do. What
they allow for is: 1. The use of xed functional gages. 2. The ability to adjust the part on the gage (also known as
best t in some CMM software).
Imagine a circular part. This part has a single hole of size 10 +/-1, that well call datum A, in the exact center.
Around this central hole in a circular pattern are several 4 +/-1 holes with a positional tolerance of .1 at MMC
relative to datum A at MMB. Your datum feature simulator for datum A has a diameter of 9 (MMB size). Your
functional gage to verify location of the smaller holes would have pin diameters of 2.9. Your gage would look like
the negative image of your part, i.e. big pin with little pins around it at the speci ed diameter from the part axis.
Now, imagine these 4 +/-1 holes are inspected and found to have an actual positional tolerance of .2 (were
ignoring the local size of the smaller holes for simplicity). Without the MMB callout, you would have to reject the
part. With the MMB callout you are able to move the part in the gage to hopefully get your part to t (not always
possible) as the center hole of the part departs from MMB to LMB. For example, if the part center hole is
produced at 9, youre out of luck, there is no oat. However, if the part center hole is produced at 11 you have 1
of oat in any one direction to get your part to t. You are in e ect re-centering the axis of the part.
The best applications for this are when the datum to be used at MMB/LMB are used for clearance that have no
aligning requirement at the next higher assembly.
The
net result is that you could have features that depart from true position by an additional amount equal to
|
1/2 the di erence between MMB and LMB of the referenced datum. This is in addition to the amount allowed by
any tolerance and bonus tolerance. Caution, if you have features opposed to one another that wander in
opposite directions,
no amount of oat over the gage is going to get you into a t condition.

However,
this should allow to get a better grip on the situation.
It does get a little bit more complicated than this as you must respect controls of higher precedence datums.
I hope this was clear. Id encourage you to take a look at section 4.11.1 4.11.9 in the ASME Y14.5-2009 standard.
We also, cover this material in our self paced, online GD&T Basics course. Let me know if we can be of further
assistance.
50/55
7/17/2016
Jim says:
Thank you Matt,

I need the formula to convert the .008 true position to Degrees, Minutes Seconds . I can nd the exact
position no problem Im using gage ball to surface illuminate to see exact center of Hole.
My way of thinking is it would be easier to know zone, angle wise verses Decimal wise.

Jim
There isnt a formula to convert the .008 into degrees. That tolerance zone is inclined by your basic angle
relative to your datum A. No matter how far o from true position you are .001 or .008 the angle of the
tolerance zone is still at 26.5. As long as the axis of your manufactured feature is entirely within this zone
the part is good.
I think you are asking how much variation in angle is allowed via this diameter tolerance zone. If this is
indeed the case, some straightforward geometry should do the trick. The variation angle depends on the
size of the
tolerance
zone and the wall thickness of the part. A thicker wall is going to restrict your
| About
variation in the same manner a tighter tolerance zone would.
CheckCourse
my math
as I did this on a napkin. For a tolerance zone of d, at a basic angle of 26.5 with a wall
GD&T
Loginhere
thickness of wt, the variation angle, alpha, permitted for the axis of the feature hole would be: alpha = tan
^-1 (( d * sin26.5 )/ wt). I assumed a wall thickness of .125 and came up with a variation angle alpha = 1.64
degrees.
Best of luck,
Matt
51/55
7/17/2016
Evelyn says:
Its correct use places in a basic dimensions? 2X(basic dimension)


Evelyn
Yes, that is perfectly legal. For example if you have two holes one directly over the other one and to dimension
them from, say, the left edge with a basic dimension use could state 2x basic. We do it all the time. Hope this
helps.
Cheers,
GD&T Basics (http://www.gdandtbasics.com/) Matt
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