PENALTIES

HEARING
BEFORE THE

OVER-CRIMINALIZATION TASK FORCE OF 2014

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION

MAY 30, 2014

Serial No. 113113

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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

BOB GOODLATTE,
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR.,
Wisconsin
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
LAMAR SMITH, Texas
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
DARRELL E. ISSA, California
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
STEVE KING, Iowa
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
JIM JORDAN, Ohio
TED POE, Texas
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina
L LABRADOR, Idaho
RAU
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas
GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia
RON DeSANTIS, Florida
JASON T. SMITH, Missouri
[Vacant]

Virginia, Chairman
JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan
JERROLD NADLER, New York
ROBERT C. BOBBY SCOTT, Virginia
ZOE LOFGREN, California
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
HENRY C. HANK JOHNSON, JR.,
Georgia
PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico
JUDY CHU, California
TED DEUTCH, Florida
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
KAREN BASS, California
CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana
SUZAN DelBENE, Washington
JOE GARCIA, Florida
HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York
DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island

SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff & General Counsel

PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel

OVER-CRIMINALIZATION TASK FORCE

OF

2014

F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., Wisconsin, Chairman

LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas, Vice-Chairman
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
ROBERT C. BOBBY SCOTT, Virginia
L LABRADOR, Idaho
RAU
JERROLD NADLER, New York
GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
KAREN BASS, California
HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York
CAROLINE LYNCH, Chief Counsel

(II)

CONTENTS
MAY 30, 2014
Page

OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Texas, and Vice-Chairman, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law ..................................................................................
The Honorable George Holding, a Representative in Congress from the State
of North Carolina, and Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law ..................................................................................
The Honorable Robert C. Bobby Scott, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Over-Criminalization Task
Force of 2014 ........................................................................................................
The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary .........
The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary .................................

1
1
4
6
10

WITNESSES
William G. Otis, Adjunct Professor of Law, Georgetown University Law Center
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Eric Evenson, National Association of Assistant United States Attorneys
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Marc Levin, Esq., Policy Director, Right on Crime Initiative at the Texas
Public Policy Foundation
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Bryan Stevenson, Professor of Clinical Law, New York University School
of Law, Founder and Executive Director, Equal Justice Initiative
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................

10
13
27
29
35
37
45
47

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

Prepared Statement of the Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Wisconsin, and Chairman, OverCriminalization Task Force of 2014 ...................................................................
Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative
in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee
on the Judiciary ...................................................................................................
Material submitted by the Honorable Robert C. Bobby Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, OverCriminalization Task Force of 2014 ...................................................................
Material submitted by the Honorable Spencer Bachus, a Representative in
Congress from the State of Alabama, and Member, Over-Criminalization
Task Force of 2014 ...............................................................................................
(III)

3
8
93
160

IV
Page

Additional Material submitted by the Honorable Spencer Bachus, a Representative in Congress from the State of Alabama, and Member, OverCriminalization Task Force of 2014 ...................................................................

162

APPENDIX
MATERIAL SUBMITTED

FOR THE

HEARING RECORD

Supplemental Material submitted by Eric Evenson, National Association of

Assistant United States Attorneys .....................................................................
Material submitted by William G. Otis, Adjunct Professor of Law, Georgetown
University Law Center ........................................................................................
Letter to the Honorable Harry Reid, Majority Leader, and the Honorable
Mitch McConnell, Minority Leader, United States Senate ..............................
Questions for the Record submitted to the Witnesses ..........................................

168
171
172
176

PENALTIES
FRIDAY, MAY 30, 2014

HOUSE

OF

REPRESENTATIVES

OVER-CRIMINALIZATION TASK FORCE

COMMITTEE

ON THE

OF

2014

JUDICIARY

Washington, DC.
The Task Force met, pursuant to call, at 9:01 a.m., in room 2237,
Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Louie Gohmert
(Vice-Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Gohmert, Goodlatte, Bachus, Holding,
Scott, Conyers, Cohen, and Jeffries.
Staff Present: (Majority) Robert Parmiter, Counsel; Alicia
Church, Clerk; and (Minority) Ron LeGrand, Counsel.
Mr. GOHMERT. The Over-Criminalization Task Force hearing will
come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare
recesses of the Task Force at any time.
We will welcome our witnesses today.
Mr. William G. Bill Otis an adjunct professor at Georgetown
Law. He has held a number of positions in the Federal Government: Chief of the Appellate Division, U.S. Attorneys Office for the
Eastern District of Virginia, Counselor to the Administrator, Drug
Enforcement Administration, and Special Counsel to President
George H.W. Bush. He has written several op-ed pieces on criminal
law for USA Today, Forbes, The Washington Post, and U.S. News
& World Report; has been interviewed and quoted by The New
York Times and The Wall Street Journal; has testified as an expert
witness before Congress; has appeared on various network programs and as a contributor to the blogs Crime and Consequences
and Power Line. Mr. Otis obtained his undergraduate degree at the
University of North Carolina and his juris doctorate at Stanford
Law School.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Holding, to introduce our second witness.
Mr. HOLDING. Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure today to introduce a leader in this battle fighting against drug crimes, former
Assistant United States Eric Evenson, who is here today. Mr.
Evenson retired December of last year after more than two decades
as a Federal prosecutor and after significant experience as a prosecutor in the State courts of North Carolina. He served as an assistant district attorney for a number of years in both Greensboro
and Durham. His perspective as a frontline Federal prosecutor I
(1)

2
think will be invaluable, Mr. Chairman, to the Task Force consideration of Federal penalties.
I came to know Eric when I served as First Assistant United
States Attorney in the Eastern District of North Carolina. When I
joined the office in 2002, Eric was already leading our Organized
Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force, as you know, OCDETF, Mr.
Chairman, task force, coordinating Federal investigations and prosecutions of high-level interstate and international drug trafficking.
Throughout his tenure, Eric believed strongly and demonstrated
clearly that tough, cooperative, and sustained pressure on drugtrafficking organizations could reduce the flow of drugs, could remove the worst offenders, and could drive down the crime rate and
make our communities safer. Under Erics leadership, our OCDETF
unit pursued large numbers of serious drug traffickers and gained
the cooperation of defendants whose information was critical to our
ability to infiltrate, disrupt, and dismantle these organizations.
During his tenure, Eric received two Directors Awards from the
United States Department of Justice for outstanding prosecutions
and one from Attorney General Janet Reno and one from Attorney
General Eric Holder before retiring from the Department of Justice
in November of 2013.
Mr. Chairman, I think Erics expertise and his deep knowledge
of what works and what doesnt work will aid this Committee as
it considers issues currently facing our country in the area of drug
control and sentencing policy. So I am pleased to welcome my
friend and colleague here today. And I hope that all the Members
of the Task Force will benefit from his perspective. Thank you.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you very much.
Our next witness, Mr. Marc Levin. Marc A. Levin is director of
the Center for Effective Justice at the Texas Public Policy Foundation and policy director of its Right on Crime Initiative, which he
led the effort to develop in 2010.
Mr. Levin helped develop the Right on Crime Initiative, which
was launched by the Texas Public Policy Foundation at the end of
the 2010. Right on Crime has become the national clearinghouse
for conservative criminal justice reforms, receiving coverage in outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, National Review, New York
Times, Fox Business News, and The Washington Post. Mr. Levin
has testified on sentencing reform and solitary confinement at separate hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, and has testified before State legislatures. Mr. Levin served as a law clerk to
Judge Will Garwood on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, and staff attorney at the Texas Supreme Court.
Our next witness, Mr. Bryan Stevenson. Mr. Stevenson represents the Equal Justice Initiative. He is also clinical faculty at
New York University School of Law. Mr. Stevenson has represented capital defendants and death row prisoners since 1985,
when he was a staff attorney with the Southern Center for Human
Rights in Atlanta, Georgia. Since 1989, he has been executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, a private, nonprofit law organization he founded.
The focus is on social justice and human rights in the context of
criminal justice reform in the United States. EJI litigates on behalf
of condemned prisoners, juvenile offenders, people wrongly con-

3
victed or charged, poor people denied effective representation, and
others whose trials are marked by racial bias or prosecutorial misconduct.
Mr. Stevenson has served as a visiting professor of law at the
University of Michigan School of Law. He has also published several widely disseminated manuals on capital litigation and written
extensively on criminal justice, capital punishment, and civil rights
issues. Mr. Stevenson is a graduate of Harvard, with both a masters in public policy from the Kennedy School of Government and
a JD from the School of Law.
So the witnesses written statements will be entered into the
record in their entirety. I will ask the witnesses to summarize each
testimony in 5 minutes or less. To help you stay within that time,
there is a timing light in front of you there. The light will switch
from green to yellow, indicating you have 1 minute to conclude
your testimony; when the light turns red, it indicates the witness
5 minutes have expired.
At this time, unless there is objection, I want to offer the statement of our Chairman, James Sensenbrenner, Jr., for the OverCriminalization Task Force. Know that our thoughts and prayers
are for Chairman Sensenbrenner and his wife with the health
issues that she has had for a week or so. And so hearts and prayers
go out for both of them. And I have a statement here that I would
enter into the record. If there is no objection, hearing no objection,
that will be so order.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sensenbrenner follows:]
Prepared Statement of the Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Wisconsin, and Chairman, OverCriminalization Task Force of 2014
Good morning and welcome to the seventh hearing of the Judiciary Committees
Over-Criminalization Task Force. Over its first six months of existence, the Task
Force conducted an in-depth evaluation of the over-criminalization problem. This
year, the Task Force has held two hearings, focusing on Criminal Code Reform and
the Over-federalization of criminal law.
These hearings have followed a logical progression. The Task Force began its
work by analyzing whether the mens rea, or intent requirements, in the federal
criminal code are appropriate and sufficient to ensure that, except in very specific
circumstances, nobody is convicted of a crime without the intent to do something
that the law forbids. The Task Force next engaged in an examination of regulatory
crimes, where the lack of an adequate intent requirement is often an issue. I firmly
believe that, if the regulated conduct is important enough to carry a criminal penalty, it is something Congress should vote upon, rather than leaving it to a regulator
to implement. For example, we heard testimony from a witness who unknowingly
violated the Clean Water Act by re-routing sewage in an emergency, and found himself facing up to five years in federal prison. The Department of Justice informed
us that the statute they used to prosecute this individual was the same one used
to prosecute BP for dumping millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. Clearly there is a significant problem here.
The Task Force then held hearings on the need for reform of the federal Criminal
Code, which we know contains over 4,500 criminal statutes, and the related issue
of the over-federalization of the criminal law. Our work continues today, as the Task
Force will take the next logical step by analyzing the penalties associated with the
over-criminalization of federal law.
As our previous hearings have illustrated, one of the most important issues facing
this Task Force is whether certain conducteven conduct which we all agree should
be regulated by the federal governmentshould subject violators to criminal penalties, including incarceration. I think we can all agree, for example, that American
citizens should be strongly discouraged from polluting our lakes, rivers and oceans.
But should doing soparticularly unknowinglyrise to the level of a federal criminal conviction? Should Americans face prison time for mistakenly checking the

4
wrong box on a form? What about for violating the laws of a foreign country? Alarmingly, as we know from our previous hearings, these are not hypothetical situations.
The issue of federal criminal penalties has received significant attention on Capitol Hill over the past year, and not just from this Task Force. In particular, many
Members have advocated for cutting mandatory minimum penalties, especially those
that apply to drug trafficking crimes. Proponents of this approach have asserted
that it would serve to reduce the federal budget, trim the prison population, and
ensure that federal judges have greater discretion and flexibility when sentencing
drug traffickers. However, as I have stated in previous hearings, I am a strong proponent of determinate sentencingparticularly that an individual who violates the
law should receive the same sentence in Springfield, Virginia, as he would in
Springfield, Illinois. Congress is the branch of government responsible for assigning
culpability to criminal conduct, including culpability for offenses that we determine
are so significant as to require mandatory incarceration.
Additionally, even Attorney General Holder has admitted that the nation currently faces a serious public health crisis with respect to heroin. This is a rare
instance where I agree with the Attorney General. Given that we are facing a heroin
epidemic in this country, I have significant concerns with any legislative proposal
to cut penalties for those who are bringing significant quantities of this poison into
our communities.
I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel about these and other
issues associated with federal over-criminalization penalties.
I want to thank the witnesses for appearing today, and look forward to hearing
your perspectives on this important issue.

Mr. GOHMERT. With that, we will turn to the Ranking Member,

Mr. Scott, for his statement.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, even though the United States represents only 5
percent of the worlds population, we account for over 25 percent
of the worlds prisoners. Since 1980, our Federal prison population
has increased 1,000 percent, the average Federal sentence has doubled, and drug sentences have actually tripled. Drug convictions
alone make up two-thirds of the increase in the Federal prison population. The so-called war on drugs has been waged almost exclusively in poor communities of color, even though data shows that
minorities are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs or commit
crime. These excessive and discriminatory sentences are driven up
by mandatory minimums, enhancements, and consecutive counts.
In fiscal year 2012, 60 percent of convicted Federal drug defendants were convicted of offenses carrying a mandatory minimum
penalty.
These defendants are not the ones for whom the harsh penalties
were intended. They are not the kingpins, they are not the leaders,
and they are not organizers of criminal syndicates. Rather, data
from the U.S. Sentencing Commission tells us that the vast majority are couriers, street-level dealers, and addicts. More than half of
them have the lowest criminal history category and as a result 93
percent of Federal inmates are nonviolent offenders.
Mandatory minimums are the worst-of-the-worst sound bites
masquerading as crime policy. They sentence people before they
are even charged or convicted, based solely on the name or the code
section of the crime. No consideration is given to the seriousness
of the crime or how minor a role one may have played in the crime
or whether one is a first offender, a young person, or an abused
girlfriend under the control of a boyfriend. The same code section,
for example, that prohibits sex between a 40-year-old and a 13year-old also prohibits sex between a 19-year-old and 15-year-old

5
high school students. Obviously, they should not be given the same
sentence, but mandatory minimums often require judges to impose
sentences that violate common sense.
The United States already locks up a higher portion of its population than any country on Earth. The Pew Center on the States
estimates that any ratio of over 350 per 100,000 in jail today, anything above that, the crime-reduction value of increased incarceration begins to diminish. They also tell us that any ratio above 500
becomes actually counterproductive, that you have got so many
people locked up that you are actually adding to crime rather than
diminishing crime because you have messed up so many families,
you have wasted so much money, you have got so many felons wandering around that cant find jobs that you are actually adding to
crime.
But the data shows that in the United States our ratio is not
only above 500, but above 700, leading the world. Some minority
communities have incarceration rates over 4,000 per 100,000, creating what the Childrens Defense Fund calls the cradle-to-prison
pipeline.
Since 1992, the annual prison costs have gone from $9 billion to
over $65 billion a year, and the rate of increase for prison costs was
six times greater than the increased spending for higher education.
The rates of incarceration we have in this country, looking at crime
and simply suggesting that the main problem is we are not locking
up enough people, doesnt comport with science, data, or common
sense.
All research shows that when compared to traditional proportional sentencing, mandatory minimums waste money, disrupt rational sentencing considerations, discriminate against minorities,
and often require judges again to impose sentences that violate
common sense. Even when a prosecutor, a judge, defense counsel,
and probation officers, even the victim, all agree, after having
heard all the evidence, that the mandatory minimum is too severe
for a particular case, there is no choice. The judges hands are tied
and the judge must apply the mandatory minimum as a matter of
law.
Despite all the problems with mandatory minimums, Congress is
still trying to pass more, even though there are at least 195 mandatory minimums already on the books. I believe in what they call
the first law of holes: When you find yourself in a hole, the first
thing you ought to do is stop digging. So if we are going to get rid
of mandatory minimums, we have to stop passing new ones. Unfortunately, we are violating that rule; in fact, we passed a new mandatory minimum just last week in the House.
Granting Federal judges more discretion in sentencing is the
smart and right thing to do. They are the ones closest to the facts
and the players in each case. But we also have to confront the fact
that over the past 40 years, Congress has been playing politics
rather than working to reduce crime in a smart way.
We have seen alternative strategies that could be used, like the
Youth PROMISE Act that I have introduced, which takes a
proactive approach. It puts evidence-based, cost-effective approaches in crime reduction into play at the community level with
full community involvement. This strategy has not only been shown

6
to reduce crime, but also to save money. It will essentially dismantle the cradle-to-prison pipeline and create a cradle-to-collegeand-career pipeline.
In terms of criminal justice reform, we need to focus our efforts
on distinctly Federal interests and ensure that the sentences of a
correct length are being legislated and imposed. We need to ensure
that Federal collateral consequences of convictions do not serve as
a continuing punishment and burden on individuals who have already served their time and paid their debt to society. But most of
all, we have to oppose mandatory minimums, enhancements, and
consecutive counts so that we can eliminate the overincarceration
that violates common sense and increases rather than decreases
crime.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Scott.
The Chair would ask Mr. Conyers, do you wish to make an opening statement?
Mr. CONYERS. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would, please, if it meets
with your approval.
Mr. GOHMERT. The Gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you. This is so important. And I welcome
the witnesses and look forward to their testimony.
But the Over-Criminalization Task Force finally focuses today on
what is the most critical failing of our Nations criminal justice system: The continuing prevalence of racism as evidenced by a Federal
charging and sentencing regime that clearly discriminates against
people of color.
Now, racism has permeated our Nations history since the beginning. The Constitution of course referred to slaves as three-fifths
of a man. The Civil War was fought to abolish slavery. And then
Jim Crow raised its ugly head, and the segregation and tactics that
followed are a matter of fact.
We are now approaching the 60th anniversary of Brown v. The
Board of Education, which of struck down separate but equal as
the law of the land. And just last year, we celebrated the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington and the passage of the Civil
Rights Act.
As a Nation, we have come so far. We like now to think that our
justice is color blind, that our system is race-neutral. But whether
overt or subconscious, the vestiges of racism are still reflected in
our Federal criminal justice system, and it is all the more insidious
for it. That is because criminal justice is meted out by human
beings with human failings, including bias. No longer does Jim
Crow and overt racism rule the day, but rather coded phrases, such
as policing high crime areas and stop-and-frisk policies, are the
norm, and combined with mandatory minimums so expertly referred to by our colleague Mr. Scott, and stacking and enhancement penalties, and the so-called three-strikes statutes. It is these
concepts that disproportionately affect communities of color, drawing more and more people into an antagonistic and unforgiving
criminal justice system.
To provide some perspective regarding this problem, I just want
to breeze through this. In the last 40 years the United States prison population has grown by 700 percent and now accounts for 25

7
percent of the worlds prisoners. The number of Federal prisoners
alone grew by nearly 50 percent from 2001 to 2010. While only 4
percent of the Federal crimes carry mandatory sentences, 34 percent of those in Federal prison are serving mandatory sentences.
Moreover, the racial impact of the Federal penalty system is
wildly disproportionate. One in nine Black men between the ages
of 20 and 34 are incarcerated. One in 3 Black men and 1 in 6
Latinos will spend some part of their lives in prison, compared to
one 1 in 23 White men. Blacks represent 12 percent of total drug
users in the country, but account for nearly 40 percent of drug-related arrests.
Now, these numbers are far worse in segregated and impoverished communities. In addition to the devastating societal costs of
mass incarceration, it also results in a massive economic cost. The
so-called war on drugs has cost $1 trillion since its beginning, and
the cost to run our Federal prisons cost $6.9 billion in fiscal year
2014.
So before we identify solutions, we must recognize how we institutionalize and normalize racism today. That is what makes this
discussion this morning so important. I want to focus on how racism, unconscious or not, has a disproportionate impact on criminal
penalties on minority communities. Bias can begin with a decision
of where and what offenses are investigated. With enough time and
officers in a certain location, it is only a matter of time before they
find reasonable suspicion to stop, detain, and arrest someone or
many people.
At the prosecutorial phase, this bias can be magnified through
decisions about what charges to bring, what plea deal to offer, and
whether mandatory minimums and enhancements apply. People
from poor communities of color are more likely to receive harsher
charges and mandatory penalties.
The mandatory minimums and statutory enhancements so ingrained in the code that were intended to target so-called kingpins
and violent criminals do no such thing. Their use is now propagated against low-level, nonviolent offenders who are disproportionately poor people of color. The threat of these staggering mandatory
de facto life sentences coerces defendants into pleading guilty. They
impose a trial penalty on those who use their constitutional right
to a jury trial.
I am almost there, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you for your indulgence.
Finally, at sentencing people of color receive harsher sentences
than would Whites for the same conduct through mandatory minimums and other sentencing enhancements.
Racism in America has for the most part ceased to be overt. But
the prevalence of institutionalizing discrimination by writing it into
law is just as present today as it was 100 years ago.
The question that stands is this: What can we as a Congress do
about these pressing issues? Finding solutions to unconsciously institutionalized racism in the criminal justice system and writ large
on our society is not an easy task, but there are steps we can take.
We can begin by rolling back mandatory minimums and stacking
and enhancement sentencing penalties that result in cruel and unusual punishment for what are too often low-level offenses. We can

8
revest the judiciary with discretion in sentencing. We can reinvest
the judiciary with discretion in sentencing. Not all judges are immune to bias, but in doing so we allow the possibility of proportional sentencing and the ability to overturn unduly harsh sentences due to abuse of discretion.
I conclude on this point, Chairman.
Mr. GOHMERT. You are double your time. And if we do that, were
not going to get through because of votes that are coming.
Mr. CONYERS. All right. Then I will just submit the rest of my
statement. Thank you, Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:]
Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative
in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary
The Over-Criminalization Task Force finally focuses today on what is the most
critical failing of our Nations criminal justice system: the continuing prevalence of
racism as evidenced by a federal charging and sentencing regime that clearly discriminates against people of color.
Racism has permeated our nations history since the beginning. The Constitution
referred to slaves as three-fifths of a man. The Civil War was fought to abolish slavery, and then Jim Crow raised his ugly head.
We are fast approaching the sixtieth anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education,
which struck down separate but equal as the law of the land.
And just last year, we celebrated the fiftieth anniversary of the March on Washington, and the passage of the Civil Rights Act.
As a nation, we have come so far. We like to now think that justice is colorblind;
that the system is race neutral. But, whether overt or subconscious, the vestiges of
racism are still reflected in our federal criminal justice system, and it is all the more
insidious for it. That is because criminal justice is meted out by human beings with
real human failings, including bias.
No longer does Jim Crow and overt racism rule the day, but rather coded phrases
such as policing high crime areas and stop and frisk policies are the norm. And
combined with mandatory minimums, stacking and enhancement penalties, and socalled three strikes statutes, it is these concepts that disproportionately affect
communities of color, drawing more and more people into an antagonistic and unforgiving criminal justice system.
To provide some perspective regarding this problem, lets begin with a
few facts:In the last 40 years, the U.S. prison population has grown by 700%,
and now accounts for 25% of the worlds prisoners. The number of federal
prisoners alone grew by nearly 50% from 2001 to 2010.
While only 4% of federal crimes carry mandatory minimum sentences, 34%
of those in federal prison are serving mandatory sentences.
Moreover, the racial impact of the federal penalty system is wildly disproportionate:
1-in-9 black men between ages 20 and 34 are incarcerated.
1-in-3 black men, and 1-in-6 Latinos will spend some part of their lives in
prison, compared to 1-in-23 white men.
Blacks represent 12% of total drug users in the country, but account for nearly 40% of drug related arrests.
These numbers are far worse in segregated and impoverished communities.
In addition to the devastating societal cost of mass incarceration, it also results
in a massive economic cost. The so-called war on drugs has cost $1 trillion since
its beginning, and the cost to run our federal prisons cost $6.9 billion in FY 2014.
Before we identify solutions, we must recognize how we institutionalize and normalize racism today.
First, I want to focus on how racism, unconscious or not, has a disproportionate
impact on criminal penalties on minority communities. Bias can begin with the decision of where and what offenses are investigated. With enough time and officers in
a certain location, it is only a matter of time before they find reasonable suspicion
to stop, detain, and arrest someone.

9
At the prosecutorial phase, this bias can be magnified through decisions about
what charges to bring, what plea deal to offer, and whether mandatory minimums
and enhancements apply. People from poor communities of color are more likely to
receive harsher charges and mandatory penalties.
The mandatory minimums and statutory enhancements so ingrained in the Code
that were intended to target so-called kingpins and violent criminals do no such
thing. Their use is now propagated against low-level, non-violent offenders who are
disproportionately poor people of color.
The threat of these staggering mandatory de facto life sentences coerces defendants into pleading guilty. They impose a trial penalty on those who their constitutional right to a jury trial.
Finally, at sentencing, people of color receive harsher sentences than would
whites for the same conduct through mandatory minimums and other sentencing
enhancements.
Racism in American has, for the most part, ceased to be overt, but the prevalence
of institutionalizing discrimination by writing it into law is just as present today
as it was 100 years ago.
The question that stands is: What can we, as a Congress, do about these pressing
issues?
Finding solutions to unconsciously institutionalized racism in the criminal justice
system, and writ large on society, is not an easy task. But there are steps we can
take.
We can begin by rolling back mandatory minimums and stacking and enhancement sentencing penalties that result in cruel and unusual punishment for what are
too often low-level offenses.
We can revest the federal judiciary with discretion in sentencing. Not all judges
are immune to bias, but in doing so we allow for the possibility of proportional sentencing, and the ability to overturn unduly harsh sentences due to abuse of discretion.
We can recognize that Congress can and should defer to States in matters that
the States canand already doinvestigate, prosecute and sentence, rather than
engage in wasteful duplicative federal prosecutions allowing United States Attorneys to focus on uniquely federal concerns.
Criminal justice is just one symptom of the underlying problem, and I hope to
work with my colleagues in the future to hold a more in-depth forum to explore the
issues of systemic racism and its impacts on society at large that will include a look
at education, public services, voting rights, drug and mental health treatment, and
employment.
For today, I am hopeful that our witnesses today can shed light on the issues of
the disparate racial impact of the criminal justice system, the economic and societal
impact of these policies, and propose potential solutions and I look forward to their
testimony.

Mr. GOHMERT. I had waived giving my statement and offered Mr.

Sensenbrenners for the record. But with all the discussion about
racism, let me just make this one point. I was a judge for 10 years.
I tried three capital murder cases in Tyler, Texas. Two were of Anglos, one was an African American. The two Anglos got the death
penalty, the African American got life. So I dont always have the
appreciation for racism entering into every aspect.
Someone had raised an issue of, well, gee, since the judge appoints the grand jury foremen, who had the leadership role in the
grand juries. So I was attacked before they checked my record. I
never, ever considered race in appointing foremen for my grand juries. Once they got the facts and found out that I had a much higher percentage of African Americans, as it turned out, who were
grand jury foremen, not because of race, they were just the best
leaders on the grand jury. And so, anyway, I didnt find race an
issue in my courtroom at all.
I would ask the Chairman of the full Committee, do you wish to
make a full statement.

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Mr. GOODLATTE. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very
pleased to be here at the third hearing of the Over-Criminalization
Task Force following its reauthorization earlier this year.
This hearing will focus on the penalties imposed for violations of
Federal law. As others have already noted, the subject of penalties
is a very broad topic, covering a wide array of complex legal and
policy issues. Many of these issues have already been covered in
detail by this Task Force, including the need for an adequate intent
requirement in the Federal criminal law, the problems with regulatory crime, the overfederalization of criminal law, and the need
for criminal code reform.
The issue of adequate mens rea is of particular interest to me,
and it is especially significant when considering the penalties associated with violations of Federal law. As I and other Members of
this Task Force have stated repeatedly, no American citizens
should be subjected to a Federal criminal penalty without the intent to do something the law forbids.
Today I expect to hear from our panel about these and many
other issues associated with Federal penalties. Obviously, mandatory minimum sentences are a significant part of this. Advocates
for reform to mandatory minimums have argued that these reforms
are necessary to ensure low-level, nonviolent offenders, particularly
in drug cases, are not serving long prison sentences.
While I have some concerns about many of the proposals to reform the Federal sentencing scheme in this way, I am open to hearing arguments on both sides of this issue. However, one everpresent hurdle to reform in this and other areas is the repeated actions by this Administration to circumvent Congress constitutional
role in drafting, considering, and passing legislation important to
the American people.
At the Judiciary Committees DOJ oversight hearing last month,
I and other Members of the Committee questioned the Attorney
General at length about the Holder Justice Departments persistent
attempts to change the law by executive fiat. I do not believe that
any of us received satisfactory answers. It will be difficult to find
support for reform if Congress cannot trust that the Administration
will abide by these reforms.
I can assure everyone that under my leadership the House Judiciary Committee will continue to closely monitor and analyze this
and other issues associated with the imposition of Federal criminal
penalties, and I am confident that the Task Force will continue its
outstanding work. And I want to thank our distinguished panel of
witnesses today, and I look forward to their testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
With that, we are ready to proceed under the 5-minute rule with
questions.
At this time, Mr. Otis, you may proceed in your 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. OTIS, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR OF
LAW, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER

Mr. OTIS. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Scott, and Members

of the Committee, I am honored that you have invited me here
today to talk with you

11
Mr. GOHMERT. Is the green light on your microphone?
Mr. OTIS. Can you hear me better now?
Mr. GOHMERT. Yeah. If you would move that a little closer so we
can make sure everybody here can hear. You spent too much time
getting here for people not to hear what you have to say. Thank
you.
Mr. OTIS. Again, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, reMembers of the Committee, I am honored that you invited me to talk
with you today about this extremely important subject of Federal
criminal penalties.
The Task Force is rightly concerned about overcriminalization,
and in particular about the proliferation of statutes that impose
criminal liability without the traditional requirement that the defendant harbor bad intent. Such statutes undermine the very legitimacy of criminal law, which is understood by ordinary people to
forbid only behavior the average person would recognize as wrong.
I am happy to take questions on this subject and have written
a few articles about it. However, I want to focus for the moment
on a different topic: mandatory minimum penalties. Serious mandatory minimums continue to be needed. Under current law, sentencing judges have wide discretion, as they should. But judges and
the judicial branch can make breathtaking mistakes. Some of you
view Citizens United as one of them. Others view Kelo as another.
All of us view Plessy v. Ferguson as a drastic mistake in American
history.
Judges are not infallible. The Framers recognized in adopting the
separation of power that no one person and no one branch should
have 100 percent discretion 100 percent of the time. Congress is
fully warranted in directing that for some appalling crimes a
strong, rock-bottom sentence must be imposed.
Criticism of mandatory minimum sentencing is often at the heart
of the charge that the Federal criminal justice system is broken or
failing. It certainly looks broken to a heroin trafficker facing long
incarceration. But the health of the system is properly measured
not by the incarceration rate, but by the crime rate. By that standard, it is anything but broken. Crime is down 50 percent over the
last 20 years in the era of mandatory and longer sentencing. Would
that some of our other, vastly more expensive domestic initiatives
have had anything like that success.
Much of the debate now seems to be driven by two misconceptions. The first is that mandatory minimums require Federal
judges to imprison for years some high school kid who has been
caught smoking a joint. That is simply false. Mandatory minimums
apply overwhelmingly to trafficking, trafficking in deadly drugs
like heroin, methamphetamine, and PCP.
The second misconception is that having a larger prison population is per se a bad thing. One might as well say that having
more criminals in jail rather than in your neighborhood is a bad
thing. When criminals are not imprisoned, they dont just disappear. Five-year recidivism figures show that more than threequarters of drug offenders return to crime after they are released.
If we go back to the naive, failed policies of the 1960s and 1970s,
we will get the failed, crime-ridden results of the 1960s and 1970s.

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Finally, a number of recent developments tell us that lighter sentencing at the Federal level is, for good or ill, already largely the
new norm. The prudent thing for Congress to do is to assess over
the next few years whether those developments and their promise
of big cost savings and no increase in crime turn out to be true.
Last summer, for example, the Attorney General himself directed
that, for roughly the set of drug defendants for whom some pending
legislation would apply, Federal prosecutors are no longer to seek
mandatory minimum sentences. This new policy has effectively
mooted a large body of mandatory minimums and has shifted discretion back to judges. The Sentencing Commission has adopted
the two-level reductions in Guidelines offense levels for almost all
nonviolent drug offenders, producing notably shorter sentences,
and has announced just recently that for the first time ever more
sentences are being given below the guidelines range than within
it.
Perhaps most stunning is the Administrations announcement of
impending clemency for hundreds and more likely thousands of offenders serving what it views as excessive sentences. In an unprecedented move, the defense bar has been given a broad and
proactive role in proposing clemency candidates. With these proposals already in train, Congress has the opportunity to see for
itself whether more discretion and lighter sentences keep their
promise of frugality and low crime. Maybe they will. Maybe they
wont. It is only common sense for Congress to find out before
weakening a system we know has helped keep us safe.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Otis follows:]

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Mr. GOHMERT. We will hear from our next witness, Mr. Evenson.
You are recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF ERIC EVENSON, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF
ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS

Mr. EVENSON. Thank you, sir. Chairman Gohmert, Ranking

Member Scott, and Members of the Task Force, I am honored to
appear before you on behalf of the National Association of Assistant United States Attorneys. I would like to thank Congressman
Holding for his kind introduction. NAAUSA shares strong concern
over legislative proposals to reduce minimum mandatory sentences.
In the 1980s, I was a State prosecutor, and when we would do
drug cases in front of a court, we would often hear the complaint
that you are only getting the little guy, you are not getting the big
fish. And, unfortunately, because of weak State laws and diminished resources, there was a lot of truth to that complaint.
State prosecutions are based on two things. You either have to
catch the drug dealer in possession of drugs or you have to catch
him selling it. And as a result, what ends up happening is you oftentimes dont get the source of supply. The State laws are just too
weak. The resources are too minimal. What happens is that the
leader of the drug organization is largely untouchable for years. We
all live in communities where people say, why dont they get that
big drug dealer, and all the neighbors know that. This is why. Because the State laws dont have the leverage that is needed.
In 1990, I became an Assistant United States Attorney. I quickly
realized that we focused on a different set of defendants, ones that
were selling significant quantities of drugs, enough to trigger what
are called minimum mandatory sentences. Congress mandated that
we pursue these organizations and provided us with the tools, including minimum mandatory sentences, that we needed.
Now, here is the key difference between State prosecution and
Federal prosecution. Sometimes the average man on the street just
doesnt understand what we are doing. It is this: It is called conspiracy. Conspiracy law. If you dont remember anything else, I
hope you remember that. I am going to explain how it works on
a day-to-day basis, and I am going to show you where the rubber
meets the road.
In order for us to charge the leader of an organization, we generally do it with conspiracy law, because they dont sell to undercover officers; they are too clever. They sell it to their conspirators
who sell it on the street at the retail level.
Now, what do we need to charge conspiracy in Federal court?
Simple. We need co-conspirator testimony. That is how we do it. To
go after the big fish, we have to have the cooperation of the smaller
fish. And every Assistant United States Attorney worth his salt
knows this.
I will tell you that securing their cooperation is no easy task.
They dont want to cooperate. This is hard, mean business. If the
sentence they face is too low, they will tell you they can do their
time standing on their head. I have debriefed personally hundreds
of arrested drug dealers and explained to them, in the presence of
their attorney, the need for them to assist and testify truthfully.

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Congress provided their sentence could be reduced by the judge
if they substantially assisted. You see, their attorney has already
explained to them that they are facing a strong minimum mandatory sentence, and the only way that they are going to get a sentence reduction is to substantially assist. They have to be willing
to testify.
Now, this straightforward choice of options, designed by Congress and enforced by the Department of Justice, has led to the dismantling of numerous drug organizations in every district, city,
and town in America. But without the cooperation of these co-conspirators, Federal law enforcement will be unable to charge and arrest these leaders and sources of supply. Without minimum mandatory sentences, many, if not most, would simply refuse to testify.
Minimum mandatory sentences and the presumption of pretrial
detention have given Assistant U.S. Attorneys the leverage they
need to garner these witnesses and to stop drug organizations. If
this leverage is removed or weakened, then vital witnesses will become unavailable. It is really very simple.
In essence, reducing the minimum mandatories will substantially
cut down on our witnesses. Fewer of the big drug dealers will be
arrested, and we will revert back to convicting only the lower level
dealers we can buy directly from or we find in possession of drugs.
We wont be able to convict the sources of supply.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Evenson.
Mr. EVENSON. Your Honor, may I have just a few more minutes?
I still have some time.
Mr. GOHMERT. Well, actually, your time is
Mr. EVENSON. Okay.
Mr. GOHMERT [continuing]. Five minutes is up.
Mr. EVENSON. I am sorry. I didnt see the yellow light.
Mr. GOHMERT. It did come on with a minute to go.
Mr. EVENSON. I am very sorry, Your Honor. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Evenson follows:]

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Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you.
At this time, we will proceed with Mr. Levin.
You are recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF MARC LEVIN, ESQ., POLICY DIRECTOR, RIGHT
ON CRIME INITIATIVE AT THE TEXAS PUBLIC POLICY FOUNDATION

Mr. LEVIN. Well, thank you for having me. We at Right on Crime
are very pleased that Congress is examining various options for
reining in unnecessary Federal criminal laws that are properly the
province of State governments, ensuring, as Chairman Goodlatte
said, that there is a culpable mental state required for conviction,
reexamining mandatory minimums for nonviolent offenses, implementing evidence-based practices and community supervision, improving programming in Federal prisons, and strengthening reentry so we can reduce that high recidivism rate that Mr. Otis
talked about.
We are committed to the 10th Amendment and to making sure
that criminal justice matters. The garden variety street crimes are
the province of State and local governments. We recognize that although there has been a sixfold increase in incarceration rates from
the early 1970s to today, that some of that was necessary, particularly to incarcerate violent and dangerous offenders for long periods
of time. But we believe that the pendulum has swung too far, and
now we have too many nonviolent and low-risk offenders behind
bars; and that through developments and new technologies and
techniques, whether their drug courts, electronic monitoring, risk
and needs assessments, we have a better ability to supervise more
nonviolent offenders in the community.
Over the past several years, we have worked with conservative
governors, conservative lawmakers across the country to enact successful reforms, including many dealing with mandatory minimums
that we are discussing today. As an example, 29 States in the last
decade have reduced mandatory minimums relating to nonviolent
offenses, and crime has continued to decline. One example is South
Carolina reduced mandatory minimums as part of a comprehensive
reform in 2010, and crime has declined dramatically in South Carolina, 14 percent, since reducing those drug mandatory minimums.
So we would argue that we need to reexamine mandatory minimums for several reasons, and simply those of course relating to
nonviolent offenses.
Number one, of course, they can result in excessive prison terms.
And the reality is the vast majority of those affected by it are not
supervisors, leaders, kingpins. That is only 7 percent of those cases.
And so instead what we need to do is look at the fact that most
individuals affected by Federal drug mandatory minimums are, in
fact, nonviolent. More than half had no prior criminal record; 84
percent no weapon involved.
Now, certainly we can also see even outside of the drug issue.
Another example is when somebody has ever had an offense, even
decades ago, they cant have a gun, or they are subject to Federal
mandatory minimums. There was a gentleman in Tennessee hunting a turkey with a rifle and had a minor offense decades ago,
ended up with a 15-year mandatory minimum. And the Federal

36
judge in that case, like many other Federal judges, including many
conservative ones, like Judge Cassell, have said, the sentence I am
being forced to hand down by this mandatory minimum is excessive.
Now, of course mandatory minimums are supposed to produce
uniformity, but they have not done that. And part of that is because of the enhancements, the 851, the 924 enhancements that
prosecutors can file. And what we have seen is across various districts the rate at which those enhancements are filed varies dramatically. One district was 3,994 percent more likely to file enhancement than another.
And another question is really we have to look at essentially the
main reason mandatory minimums for nonviolent offenses came
into being was the concern that judges were exercising excessive
discretion. But, interestingly, in fiscal year 2013 only 17.8 percent
of the below-guideline sentences were as a result of judicial departures; more than 38 percent, and this is drug offenders, came from
urging of prosecutors for substantial compliance and other reasons.
So judges are actually adhering very closely to the sentencing
guidelines in more than 80 percent of the cases.
Now, it has also been argued mandatory minimums are necessary to encourage defendants to plead guilty. Ninety-seven percent of Federal cases are resolved by guilty plea. And in fact, the
Sentencing Commission found a greater percentage of those Federal criminal charges that dont apply to mandatory minimums resulted in a guilty plea, compared to those where mandatory minimums do apply.
Now, we certainly dont want to have unlimited discretion. In
Texas, for example, we have sentencing ranges for various crimes;
18 States have sentencing guidelines. There does need to be some
constraint on judges. So I think it is a false dichotomy to say we
have to just go back to where judges can decide on any sentence
willy-nilly.
Now, let me just address a couple of other issues. One is that we
are still talking about people going to prison for a long time. When
the crack powder disparity was narrowed in 2010, those who have
subsequently been convicted of crack cases have received an average Federal prison term of 97 months. That is real time.
And let me just also conclude by saying we would urge Congress
to rein in overcriminalization by consolidating all the Federal
criminal laws in one code; adopting a rule of construction that applies a strong mens rea protection when the underlying statute is
unclear; codifying the rule of lenity, which says that when there
are two objectively reasonable interpretations of a statute, the one
favoring the defendant should prevail; and finally, making sure
that agencies cannot unilaterally enact criminal penalties on regulations without the express approval of Congress.
Mr. GOHMERT. Gentlemans time has expired. Thank you very
much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Levin follows:]

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Mr. GOHMERT. Mr. Stevenson, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF BRYAN STEVENSON, PROFESSOR OF CLINICAL
LAW, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW, FOUNDER
AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EQUAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE

Mr. STEVENSON. Thank you. I am going to express my gratitude

to this Task Force for the opportunity to appear before you today.
I want to contextualize a little bit just how serious the problem
of overcriminalization and overincarceration is. There are new reports, one published by the National Law Employment Project and
one by the Brennan Center, that now estimate that 68 million
Americans68 millionhave criminal records. That is, they have
been arrested, fingerprinted, and are subject to all of the restrictions that come with having a criminal record.
Most of this dramatic increase is a consequence of a policy choice
we made 30 years ago to treat drug addiction and drug possession
as a crime problem rather than a healthcare problem. Many of our
allies across the globe have actually made a different choice and
have seen dramatic reduction in drug addiction and drug abuse.
We have seen the opposite.
The consequence of that choice is what has put States in great
crisis. And I would like to urge this Task Force to look to the
States for some leadership on these issues. As my colleague has
mentioned, States have had to deal with the consequences of overincarceration, the costs, $6 billion in jails and prisons in 1980, $80
billion today. Many States governments found themselves seeing
their State budgets bankrupt by the spending that is being directed
to jails and prisons. They couldnt spend on public safety, they
couldnt spend on health and human services.
And so they have made the difficult decision to retreat from mandatory minimum sentencing, from overincarceration. And what I
think is important about what they can teach us is that, as was
indicated, 29 States have now eliminated these laws or restricted
these laws and seen their crime rates fall, seen their budgets improve. And I think that lesson is an important lesson for this Task
Force.
There are a bunch of concerns that need to be addressed. Number one, when we have mandatory minimum sentences, we do not
eliminate discretion. There is this theory that we were going to
solve inequality in sentencing by taking discretion away from
judges. What we do with mandatory minimum sentencing is actually take the discretion, shift it from the judge, and give it to the
prosecutor.
I have a great deal of respect for my friends, men and women,
who work as U.S. Attorneys across this country. But all of us bring
biases into this process. And to empower any agentany agent
to exercise the kind of power that now exists, with no transparency, no accountability, I think creates the kind of disruption
that we have seen.
I want to emphasize that the overwhelming majority of people in
the Federal system serving long sentences for mandatory minimum
sentences are not the kingpins. I agree with the colleagues here.
If we want to go after these kingpins, I dont have any concerns
with that. But the U.S. Sentencing Commission estimates that two-

46
thirds of the people serving these sentences are low-level or midlevel offenders. It is that consequence that I think we can address
by reform.
There are particular problems that I think are reflected by what
we are doing beyond the costs, beyond the challenges that are
being created, and one is the effect that we are having on communities. I am deeply disturbed by the fact that I go into communities
where I talk to 13- and 14-year-old kids who expect to go to jail
or prison. You cant have the kind of data that we havefor example, one in three Black kids is expected to go to jailyou cant have
that data without it having very serious collateral consequences.
And many of the data suggest that we are actually pushing people into crime lifestyles, into drug lifestyles, into criminogenic lifestyles because there is this hopelessness that I think comes from
these excessive, extreme, misguided sentences.
There are vulnerable groups that I also want to emphasize. The
rate of women going to prison in the Federal system has increased
700 percent. Children. We actually have Federal statutes that
allow the prosecution of children as young as 13 years of age to be
subject to life sentences, some for behaviors that do not reflect serious crime categories. And veterans. We have a growing population
of men and women who served abroad who come back with trauma,
who come back with drug addiction, who come back with a lot of
disabilities, and because of our mandatory minimum schemes, we
are not authorized to account for their service. We dont have the
discretion to account for that. That creates very, very disparate
outcomes, unfair outcomes, unjust outcomes.
I want to emphasize two things. One, there are 17 States that
have reduced these mandatory minimum statutes that have seen
their crime rates fall. I think we should look to those States for the
kinds of reductions and the kinds of adjustments that need to be
made.
And the last thing I want to emphasize is that we are at a moment in American history where we have unparalleled, widespread
consensus that this is the thing that we need to do, eliminate these
mandatory minimums. When the American Legislative Exchange
Council was making this recommendation, as is the American Civil
Liberties Union, when people on the right and on the left recognize
that we are spending too much money, wasting too much money on
incarcerating people who are not a threat to public safety, I think
it creates an opportunity for this Task Force to lead this Congress.
In 2012and the last point I will makethe voters of California
in a referendum, in every county voted to eliminate three-strikes
laws and mandatory minimum sentencing. I think that signal is
the signal this Task Force needs to move forward on this important
issue.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. We will hear more.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Stevenson follows:]

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Mr. GOHMERT. At this time, we will begin the 5-minute questioning. I will reserve, since I have got to be here till the end, and
go ahead and recognize the Chairman of the full Committee for 5
minutes.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And first let me commend all four of these witnesses. I think you
have made great presentations and you have focused this discussion and the debate.
First, Mr. Otis, let me start with you. In many communities, including many in my congressional district in the Shenandoah Valley, western Virginia, there has been a spike in deaths associated
with heroin, including among young people. Do you believe it could
send a bad message to young people to have the Federal Government reduce penalties across all drug categories, including for heroin?
Mr. OTIS. I could hardly imagine a worse message. I was appalled the other day when, I think it was on a Monday, I saw the
Attorney General give a talk recommending some legislation currently pending in the Senate that would substantially cut back on
mandatory minimums without ever mentioning the specific drugs,
including heroin, to which mandatory minimums apply. And the
very next day, I saw him announce that there was a heroin crisis
going on in many communities in this country. The idea
Mr. GOODLATTE. Let me cut you short just because I want to give
some other people the opportunity, and I have got a few questions
I want to ask.
Let me let Mr. Stevenson respond to the same question.
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. I actually think that we are not going to
affect use of heroin, use of some of these very serious drugs by creating harsher penalties. When you have an addiction, when you
have a disability, when you have a disorder, the last thing you are
thinking about is, what kind of sentence am I going to serve? I
think we are going to disrupt the heroin epidemics that we have
identified in these communities with interventions that recognize
what works to get people off heroin. And that is healthcare models.
We have got a lot of very successful models that will help us
achieve that. But we are not going to do it through sentencing.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Mr. Otis, back to you. If you are not enamored
with the present reform proposals, do you have any suggestions or
are you simply standing pat on the current law?
Mr. OTIS. I do, Mr. Chairman. I would actually support stronger
reform than is currently being proposed, but it would be reform in
a different direction.
For example, I would retain the requirement currently pending
in some Senate legislation that the Attorney General list all nonmens rea statutes. I would require, in addition, the Attorney General to explain as to each how criminal penalties can be squared
with the traditional notion of blame and culpability. Such explanations would have to include a discussion of why regulatory violations could not more effectively and fairly be processed as civil matters.
I would eliminate incarceration as a potential punishment for
non-mens rea crimes. I would require that enforcement be under-

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taken only by the three agencies that have professional experience
with this. That is
Mr. GOODLATTE. Let me cut you short because I am mainly interested in reforms. I am interested in those reforms very much, and
I would like you to submit those to us.
But I am mainly interested at this hearing today about mandatory minimums and alternatives to those.
But because my time will run short, let me turn next to Mr.
Levin. You state that a primary focus of the Right on Crime Initiative is maximizing the public safety return on the dollars spent on
criminal justice. Do you assert that there are no costs, social or otherwise, involved with the early release of drug offenders into communities where the mechanism is reduce penalties, broaden safety
valve provisions, or executive clemency?
Mr. LEVIN. Thanks your for question. Right on Crime doesnt
support or oppose any actual legislation. But I will tell you what
we have worked with many States on is how do you take some of
the savings, if you are going to have people serve lightly less time
for nonviolent offenses, how do take some of those savings and reinvest them in stronger parole supervision; reentry programs,
where people, when they come out of prison, have to be drug tested, have to report to a parole officer, cant see certain people, including gang members; electronic monitoring; a whole host of models. The Hawaii HOPE Court, which is now being used in reentry
in Washington State.
So I think what we need to do is make sure when we have people
perhaps coming out of prison a little earlier for certain nonviolent
offenses, who are determined to be low risk, that we then in the
community make sure they have the supervision so that they dont
go back to their old ways.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you.
And, Mr. Evenson, in your 23 years as a Federal prosecutor, how
often were drug-trafficking cases brought within your district
where the drug quantity was below the statutory mandatory minimum level?
Mr. EVENSON. I cant think of one.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Anybody else want to respond to that very briefly?
Mr. EVENSON. And let me just say this: The majority of defendants that were brought in had prior drug convictions in State court.
Mr. GOODLATTE. And is it your opinion that these are serious
drug offenders and not occasional users?
Mr. EVENSON. Absolutely. The individuals that our agents were
looking at were heavily involved with distributing narcotics over
extended periods of time. And they usually had prior State convictions that resulted in no time or probation, suspended sentences.
And when we were able to obtain necessary evidence against them,
we were able to bring them in, convince them that they were looking at strong minimum mandatory sentences, and it was at that
point they realized that they wanted to cooperate, they assisted us,
and were willing to testify. That is how we built our case and went
up the chain and got the source of supply.
If I can just say this. Drug organizations set up strongholds in
neighborhoods and they affect everybody in that community. We

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represent the law-abiding citizens in that community. And as the
Congressman said here a moment ago, referring to poor communities of color. We represent many of those poor communities of
color who are sick and tired of that drug trafficker abiding by that
kind of behavior in the district.
I will tell you one example. We arrested a significant drug trafficker who was involved with violence.
Mr. GOHMERT. The time has expired.
Mr. EVENSON. I am sorry, Your Honor.
Mr. GOODLATTE. I thank the gentleman. If you want to submit
something for the record to expand on that, we would welcome
that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your forbearance.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
At this time Mr. Scott, the Ranking Member, would be asking
questions, but he had indicated to me he would like to first yield
to the Ranking Member of the overall Committee, Mr. Conyers, for
5 minutes.
You are recognized.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Judge Poe.
Let me begin with Marc Levin, Policy Director.
And I want to express my appreciation for this discussion going
on here. It is quite balanced and, to me, quite revealing.
Mr. Levin, can you speak about States that have eliminated or
reduced mandatory penalties and their effect on the crime rate, the
guilty plea rate, the cooperation rate.
Mr. LEVIN. Yes. Thank you very much, Congressman Conyers.
In fact, one of the examples is Michigan, which you are probably
familiar with, in 2000 eliminated their drug mandatory minimums,
including retroactively, and then, in the subsequent decade, property crimes fell 24 percent; violent crime, 13 percent.
I mentioned earlier South Carolina, as another example, in 2010,
rolled back their drug mandatory minimums and has seen crime
drop 14 percent since then.
Georgia recently under Governor Deal, who is a former prosecutorhis brother is a drug court judge, and drug courts are one
of the best solutions we have. They rolled back drug sentencing
laws about a year ago, the penalties on low-level drug possession.
And they have seen crime continue to decline in Georgia.
So Texas, where I am from, we are definitely still tough on
crime, and we say we are tough and smart. And so that does involve making the sentence fit the crime. For our drug possession
cases, just as an example, if you have 1 to 4 grams of drugs, your
sentence could be 2 to 10 years. That could be probation or prison.
I think that what we need to do isthe heroin epidemic was
mentioned earlier. That is a scourge. But, for example, there is new
pharmacological interventions to literally block the receptors so the
heroin addict doesnt feel anything anymore.
Certainly those kingpins dealing large amounts of drugs, they
are going to continue to get heavy Federal sentences. And we are
just talking here about mandatory minimums, but there could still
be sentences above that. That is just the floor.

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And no one is talking about getting rid of any mandatory minimums, just recalibrating them to some degree, expanding the safety valve, for example.
And so I really think we have to keep in focus that, when you
go back on the crack/powder disparity, after that was narrowed,
the average sentence is 97 months. That is 7 or 8 years. That is
a lot of incentive to cooperate with the prosecutor and have that
prosecutor be able to tell the judge, This guy is fully cooperating.
So given 97 percent of cases plea out, I dont buy that we need
penalties that are unjust simply to convict a third party. We ought
to be focusing on what sentence fits the crime in that individual
case before the court.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much.
So there has been, in effect, no increase in crime rates when we
have reduced these penalties, and the plea rates and cooperation
have gone on.
Mr. LEVIN. I think that is correct. And I would also say the Federal system is a very small percentage. There is over 2 million people locked up in the U.S. Only 10 percent of them are in the Federal system.
So I would argue that, frankly, some of the best things we could
do to reduce crime and have been doing are like policingdatadriven policing like CompStat in New York City. We can actually
deter crime by having police in the right places.
And so, again, you know, with the Department of Justice, we are
getting to a point where close to a third of the budget is the Federal prison system, and we could be using those funds for prosecutors, for other strategies.
Mr. CONYERS. Is this from the State that you are giving us this
experience, State instead of Federal?
Mr. LEVIN. Yes. I am pointing out to you that I think the crime
rates are more tied to State policy because, of course, the vast majority of defendants are sentenced and those incarcerated in State
systems rather than the Federal Government. So I think the Federal Government has a very limited effect on the crime rate.
Mr. CONYERS. And after crack reductions, there was no increase
in recidivism for those offenders either?
Mr. LEVIN. Yeah. In fact, in Texas, we have seen our crime rate
lowest since 1968. We have closed three adult prisons. Our probation and parole recidivism rates have fallen dramatically.
And it is because, instead of building more prisons, we took some
of that money and put it into strengthening probation, lower caseloads, more drug courts, more treatment programs. So I think that
the Federal Government can learn from that.
Mr. CONYERS. Let me ask my final question to Mr. Otis.
The media chooses how to portray the face of crime. It can choose
to paint the face of a criminal as oneor someone of color.
Law enforcement decides which neighborhoods and crimes to
focus on, and that means not all neighborhoods are targeted. You
show me the man, and I will find you the crime.
Officers decide which cases are presented for prosecutors, and
prosecutors frequently decide who is charged with mandatory penalties and who is not.

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Are you saying, sir, that it is impossible for bias, unconscious or
not, to seep into our system?
Mr. OTIS. May I answer that question?
Mr. GOHMERT. Yes. Go ahead and answer. This is the last question.
Mr. OTIS. Of course it is not impossible for bias to get into the
system. Anyone who would say that would be out of his mind.
Nor is it impossible for ideology or naivete to creep into judges
decisions on what sentencing is when they are not constrained by
a mandatory minimum.
And I would cite for you a specific example, that being the Corey
Reingold case, the child pornography case in New York where a
Federal district judge imposed a sentence of 30 months on a defendant who did not merely possess, but had distributed, child pornography.
And I am not talking here just about nude pictures of teenagers.
I am talking about elementary school-age children in contorted
poses that I am not going to describe in a setting like this.
The district judge was so influenced by his own personal opinions
and so convinced that Congresss mandatory minimum of 5 years
was unfair that he sentenced the defendant to 30 months. A unanimous panel of the Second Circuit with a majority of Democratic-appointed judges reversed him.
And the only reason that panel was enabled to require the district judge on remand to impose at least 5 years was that Congress
had had the wisdom to say, For a crime like this, you cannot go
below that.
Mr. CONYERS. Professor Otis, you sound more reasonable this
morning than I could have had any right to expect, and I thank
you for your response.
Mr. OTIS. I apologize.
Mr. CONYERS. Please dont.
Mr. GOHMERT. At this time we will recognize the gentleman from
Alabama. Mr. Bachus is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. BACHUS. Thank you.
I noticed that there was general agreement that we ought to
focus first on the kingpin, the organizer. And I think we all agree
maybe with Mr. Evenson that, to do that, you have to get cooperation from someone down the line.
With that in mind, I want to ask you aboutthe Attorney General backAugust of last year directed U.S. attorneys in a criminal
division toand he was talking about Title 21, the safety valve,
how you could not charge if certain elements were there. And he
said, If these elements arent there, this is what you canyou
dont have to charge.
One element that had existed before that was cooperation, but he
dropped that one. So you can deviate even though there is unwillingness to cooperate. So that is not even taken into consideration.
Were you aware, Mr. Evenson or Mr. Otis, that there was a
change made? He alsohe elevated the number of points.
Mr. EVENSON. Congressman, I am aware of the August 2013
memo. Essentially, prior to that time, prosecutors were authorized
to file what is called an 851 enhancement in every drug case.

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That is, essentially, if a drug dealer is arrested and he has a
prior drug felony conviction, a notice is filed with the court that basically doubles the minimum mandatory. That particular tool has
been very effective in gaining cooperation. That is one of the tools
that we have used.
Now that tool has been greatly modified for assistant United
States attorneys, and only in certain cases are we authorized to file
that.
Also, there was in the memo that we are not to put the drug
quantities in the indictment which trigger the minimum mandatory.
Mr. BACHUS. Right.
And, you know, it gives criteria when you dont put them in
there. It is just generalyou dont put them in unless these things
are present, like violence.
Mr. EVENSON. In effect, the minimum mandatories have been
done away to a large extent by that memo.
Mr. BACHUS. And used to cooperation was one of those things
that you could consider, but thenI guess you still can.
But what I am saying, the safety valve, the currentyou know,
according to this memo, even if they are not cooperating and they
couldthey could finger somebody, you stillyou know, that is
not
Mr. EVENSON. You are exactly
Mr. BACHUS [continuing]. That was the one thing that was
dropped.
Mr. EVENSON. You are exactly correct.
5C1.2 says, if you have a dealer with not any real record and he
tries to cooperate, but doesnt come up to the level of a substantial
assistance, there is no violence, then the court can come underneath minimum mandatory. Now that is not even necessary that
he cooperate.
Mr. BACHUS. It just seems like thatyou know, it goes against
that philosophy.
Mr. STEVENSON. Just on that point, Mr. Bachus, typically, the
charging decision is made before there is any opportunity to assess
cooperation. And even in those cases, cooperation can still be considered in terms of recommendation.
Mr. BACHUS. Well, I think, you know, if you make the decision
before you charge, it is more effective, the cooperation, because the
kingpin doesnt know sometimes what is going on.
Mr. STEVENSON. Well, the only point I would make is that the
range of sentencing is still extremely broad, extremely broad, and
I think the data would support that most cases are going to plead.
Mr. BACHUS. Yeah. I just found that strange, that the cooperation was the one that was totally dropped out. You know, to me,
it islet me ask one that is not in here that I think ought to be
considered, and that is age of the offender.
You know, nowhere in these guidelines does it talk about age of
the offender, and I think that is one of our biggest problems. You
know, an 18- or 19-year-old is quite different from a 23- or 24-yearold. A 30-year-old is tremendously different, his judgment.
Particularly, I have five children, two girls and three boys, and
the boys mature a little later, I mean, you know, in most cases. I

80
hope I dont hear about that. But, you know, thereI can say my
18-year-old at 30, after 4 years in the Marines, has much better
judgment.
But anybody want to comment on whether we ought to take that
into consideration?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, Mr. Bachus. I will comment on that.
I absolutely agree. And I think most states are actually moving
in that direction where they are actually reintroducing age as an
important factor, particularly when you start talking about drug
conspiracies.
Because what a lot of these kingpins do is they actually look for
young, little kids, some as young as 13 and 14 years of age, where
they have enormous influence over them, and they acculturate
them into these behaviors.
And right now judges and prosecutors dont have the discretion
to consider the fact that this kid was brought in at 13 and 14 and
stayed in for 4 or 5 years. I absolutely agree.
And the Supreme Court has actually issued a couple of decisions
that I think would support this Congress and Task Force in taking
steps to now recognize the importance of age when it comes to culpability and sentencing.
Mr. EVENSON. Congressman, I will say that most of the offenders
that we charged were in their 20s. A juvenile in Federal court is
under 18. We have to get Department approval.
I will tell you one example, that we had one drug dealer who was
involved with an organization in our district and we had to charge
him with two murders and, after we did the debriefing, he told us
he had committed four others. So he was 19 years old.
Mr. BACHUS. Yeah. And I am not talking about murder. But I am
talking about a druga 21-year-old is just a different person when
he is 30, in most cases.
I mean, they are just almost two different people in many cases,
particularly if he hasnt had some of the supervision that other
children do.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you very much.
At this time Mr. Scott indicates he will still yield.
And Mr. Jeffries from New York, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And I thank the distinguished panel that has appeared before us.
And, Professor Stevenson, it is great to see you.
I want to start with Professor Otis.
Criminal justice is largely the province of 50 States. Is that correct?
Mr. OTIS. Yes, it is.
Mr. JEFFRIES. And that is consistent, of course, with the constitutional landscape and the fact that prevention of crime wasnt necessarily an enumerated power given to Congress. It was left to the
State. And the 10th Amendment obviously factors into that.
And the majority of individuals who are incarcerated in this
country right now are in the state penal system. Is that correct?
Mr. OTIS. That is also correct. Only about 217,000 are in the Federal law prisons.

81
Mr. JEFFRIES. So the State experience is a relevant indicator of
what could potentially happen if criminal justice reform occurs.
Correct?
Mr. OTIS. That is correct, with a qualification. And the qualification is one that I would say I built on Mr. Evensons experience as
well as my own as an assistant U.S. attorney.
The Federal prison population is not like the State prison population. The States turn over to the Feds the really tough, broadranging conspiracies.
And the kind of people you find in Federal prisons are the ones
the State didnt have the toughness or the resources or the sentencing system to deal with.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. That is interesting, because about 50 percent of the Federal prison population actually constitutes non-violent drug offenders, many of whom did not have a prior criminal
record or engaged in violent criminal activity prior to them being
incarcerated in Federal criminal prison.
Is that correct, Mr. Stevenson?
Mr. STEVENSON. That is correct.
Mr. JEFFRIES. In fact, about 10 percent of the prison population
in the Federal system actually are violent offenders. In fact, I think
that is less than 10 percent.
Mr. Stevenson, is that correct?
Mr. STEVENSON. That is correct.
Mr. JEFFRIES. So the premise that the Federal system is somehow different in nature and is filled with kingpins and mafia lords
and terrorists is just inconsistent with the facts.
Is that fair, Mr. Stevenson?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. And the U.S. Sentencing Commission has
made that point repeatedly in its assessment of who is doing time
in the Federal system.
Mr. JEFFRIES. So I think it is clear there is no real difference between the individuals in the State penal system and the individuals in the Federal penal system.
And so I would argue, since the majority of individuals are actually in the State penal system, that the State penal system experience, in terms of criminal justice reform, is instructive. To me, that
seems like a reasonable premise.
But, Mr. Levin, does that seem fair?
Mr. LEVIN. I think it is.
There are obviously some differences in the composition, but,
frankly, those have lessened over the years as more and more,
frankly, low-level street-corner drug offenders have ended up in the
Federal system.
And I would also say one of the provisions of the Smarter Sentencing Act would say you could have two criminal history points
instead of one and still be able to get this benefit of the safety
valve.
Nowbut in order to get the safety valve, you have to cooperate.
And so that would actually increase the incentive to cooperate for
more people. Right? Because now, if you have at least two criminal
history points, you cant get the safety valve anyway.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Let me stop you there because my time is limited,
but I appreciate that observation.

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Now, 29 States, as Mr. Stevenson pointed out, have limited or restricted mandatory minimums. And I would think, based on some
of the testimony that we have heard today, that that perhaps
would have resulted in a crimewave being unleashed on the good
people of America in those 29 States.
Has that been the experience, Mr. Stevenson?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, it is not. And as was indicated, some States
have actually seen dramatic increases in their crime reduction
after the passage of these reforms.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Mr. Otis, are you familiar with the Rockefeller Drug Laws that were first put into place in New York State
in the 1970s?
Mr. OTIS. Generally, but not in specifics.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. And it is widely understood that these were
some of the most restrictive, punitive drug laws anywhere in this
country. Correct?
Mr. OTIS. I would have to defer to you.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Mr. Stevenson, is that correct?
Mr. STEVENSON. That is correct.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Now, these are some of the toughest, most
draconian mandatory minimums related to non-violent drug offenders.
In 2009, I was in the State legislature. I was pleased to be part
of the effort to dramatically reform those Rockefeller Drug Laws.
This happened in 2009.
Are you familiar with that, Mr. Otis?
Mr. OTIS. I am not.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Well, it occurred.
Are you familiar with that, Mr. Levin?
Mr. LEVIN. Yes, I am.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Now, again, based on this premise, I would
assume in New York State that a dramatic crimewave, as some argued would have occurred as a result of the reforms that took
place, would follow.
Is that what took place in New York State, Mr. Otis, or did the
crime actually continue to decline subsequent to the repeal of the
Rockefeller Drug Laws in New York, as has been the experience in
every other State that has changed or reformed its mandatory
minimums?
Mr. OTIS. My answer to that is going to be a little bit long, but
you have to forgive me. I am a law professor, after all.
The answer is that, yes, in the States that have experimented in
this way, crime has continued to decline, but that is because imprisonment and the use of imprisonment, while very significant,
probably the most significant factor in the overall decrease in crime
in this country in the last 20 years, is only one factor.
Other factors are at work as well, and those factors have continued to be in play, other factors like hiring more police, better police
training, better private security measures, better EMT care to reduce the murder rate, for example.
So while it is true that crime has continued to decrease, the decrease has been at a lower rate in the States in which they have
tried this. And the best example is California.
Mr. JEFFRIES. My time is expired.

83
But let me just make the observation one of the reasons that
States have been able to invest resources in those other areas that
you enumerated is because, when you reduce the prison population,
you reduce the State budgetary burden and you can actually invest
in things that have been empirically proven to lower crime.
I yield back.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Jeffries.
At this time we would move to the gentleman from North Carolina. Mr. Holding, is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. HOLDING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Evenson, I would like for you to give us some, you know, real
linereal life, frontline context.
First, you know, just to establishyou know, in your 20-plus
years as a prosecutor, most of that as a drug prosecutor, how many
drug defendants do you think you have prosecuted and who have
been prosecuted under your supervision? Just a general number.
Mr. EVENSON. I had my own caseload while I was supervising a
drug unit. I would say I have done hundreds myself over that period of time, but we have done over those years thousands. And we
specifically went after the biggest organizations by using the techniques I described earlier.
Mr. HOLDING. So in the thousands of drug defendants that you
have personally dealt with, how many of those were low-level, nonviolent drug offenders?
Mr. EVENSON. Well, let me just say this. I hear the term nonviolent thrown around.
Mr. HOLDING. Is the trafficking of drugs a violent crime?
Mr. EVENSON. It is by its very nature.
You show me a city with a violence problem, and I will show you
an underlying drug-trafficking problem. With drugs comes guns
and violence. It is the nature of the game. They dont take their
problems to court. They enforce it at the end of a gun.
And any sheriff in my district, they would tell mebecause I
knew them allI had 44 countiestheir biggest problem was
drugs and drug-related crime. That is what they were focused on,
if they could get that problem solved.
So I dont accept the term non-violent when it comes to drugs.
These organizations are, by their nature, drugand the higher
they get, the more
Mr. HOLDING. But drug trafficking is a crime of violence?
Mr. EVENSON. Yes, sir. It is.
Mr. HOLDING. I mean, by statute, it is a crime of violence.
Mr. EVENSON. And I am just going to say this right now. I have
an opportunity.
Law enforcement does not have a war on drugs. We have a war
on drug traffickers. We seize drugs and we arrest traffickers. That
is our mission. And we represent many of these people in these
poor communities of color who are victimized by that.
Mr. HOLDING. I want you to focus in onanother Member of the
Task Force pointed out that, you know, law enforcement prosecutors can choose the communities in which they go into andyou
know, to look for crime and prosecute crime.
Talk about some of those communities that you have been a part
of going into and trying to eradicate drug trafficking.

84
Mr. EVENSON. Congressman Bachus a moment ago asked me a
question, and I didnt get to finish.
One example: We had a community where a drug dealer had
been selling for years. He had a fence around his yard. He had
high-dollar vehicles. He had four of them. He had built an addition
on his house.
And there was a photo of one of my agents driving one of these
high-dollar vehicles out of the driveway.
He said, Eric, you see that picture?
I said, Yeah.
He said, You know what happened when I drove it down the
street?
I said, No.
He said, The neighborhood had come out on the street and they
were clapping.
And this was a bad, violent drug dealer. And thats the kind of
people that we represent.
Mr. HOLDING. That is, when the agent drove down the street, the
neighborhood came out and clapped?
Mr. EVENSON. It was a Corvette. He took the Corvette out of the
driveway. And he said, Right as I turned and went down the
street, they were lined up, clapping.
You know, we represent some of the most vulnerable people, the
poor, the elderly, the young, the addicted, and they have no voice.
They have no way to sell their home and move away when a drug
dealer sets up shop in a neighborhood and the property values
drop.
So, quite frankly, I am personally offended when I hear charges
of racism. The laws are race neutral. We go where the battle is hottest. We represent people who are victimized by this activity. It
doesnt make any difference what neighborhood it is.
I have never prosecuted anybody on the basis of race and neither
has any AUSA. The Department of Justice does not prosecute anybody on the basis of race. We have to go where the evidence leads
us, and that is where we go.
Mr. HOLDING. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you.
At this time the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee,
Mr. Cohen, for 5 minutes.
Mr. COHEN. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. I apologize
for being late. A couple of post-midnight sessions, whatever.
I walked in, Mr. Evenson, to hear you say something that just
was incredulous, that there is not a war on drugs. You said there
is a war on drug dealers.
Is that what you said, something to that effect?
Mr. EVENSON. Yes, sir. I did say that.
Mr. COHEN. And you said that the laws are race neutral. You
said the laws are race neutral.
Mr. EVENSON. Yes, sir. They are.
Mr. COHEN. Nobody denies the fact that the laws are race neutral. But the fact is the implementation of the laws is not race neutral and it is racial profiling. All laws are race neutral since 1865,

85
except in the South, which went to 1963. Then they were not race
neutral.
But the implementation by people under color of law who arrest
eight times more African Americans for possession of marijuana
than White is not race neutral. Is that not a reality?
Mr. EVENSON. Congressman, I understand there is a lot of statistics being thrown around. But
Mr. COHEN. Yeah. Like the 99 percent of the people believe in
climate change, and some of the people go with the 1 percent. We
will go back to the statistics.
Mr. EVENSON. Sir, I cannot argue the statistics.
All I can tell you is, on a daily basis, I deal with drug agents that
are Black, White, Indian. I have drug dealers that are Black,
White, Indian in our district. We have prosecuted wherever the evidence led us.
Mr. COHEN. I dont deny you dont prosecute them. I understand
that. I am saying arrest. And a lot of it is street-level arrests.
You are a Federal prosecutor; are you not?
Mr. EVENSON. Yes, sir. And uniformed patrol is unable to stop
this problem. It has to be investigators. They cant do anything in
uniformed patrol. They just pick up a person with possession, and
it ends there.
Mr. COHEN. Do you believe that marijuana is less dangerous to
our society than meth, heroin, crack, and cocaine?
Mr. EVENSON. Well, the laws indicate that. Yes, sir. Meth is
highly addictive.
Mr. COHEN. The laws dont indicate that. Marijuana is a Schedule I drug, the same as heroin and LSD. That law does not indicate
it.
Mr. EVENSON. In our courtroom, it is treated differently, I can
tell you that. Methamphetamine is instantly addictive.
Mr. COHEN. I agree with you. Thats right.
And you might be the best in your courtroom. I dont know. But
Iand I hope you are. But youre right. You need to go after meth
and heroin and crack and cocaine.
Mr. EVENSON. We do that, sir.
Mr. COHEN. How about marijuana, though?
Mr. EVENSON. Well, marijuanasome of the most violent dealers
that I have experienced were marijuana growers.
Mr. COHEN. Because it is illegal and they are violent when the
police comein or the DEA to try to bust them. So it is not just
that they are like malum in se. They are not violent in se. They
are violent because of the laws.
Mr. EVENSON. Well, I have been threatened by marijuana growers.
Mr. COHEN. Right.
Mr. EVENSON. They want to do their thing.
Mr. COHEN. If it was legal, do you think they would threaten
you? They threaten you because it is illegal.
Mr. EVENSON. Well, that is a different question, Congressman. I
am just telling you my experience.
Mr. COHEN. I got you.
And when alcohol was illegalI mean, Al Capone and Frank
Nitti and all those guys we watched on The Untouchables, Robert

86
StackI mean, they were bad guys, but now they are wholesalers.
They are nice guys. You know, it is just a matter of how you flip
it.
Do you think that theyou support mandatory minimums, I understand.
Mr. EVENSON. Yes, sir. We need those. We really need those.
Mr. COHEN. Do you think that there are mistakes with mandatory minimums sometimes when the judge tells us so many times
that there are situations where they didnt want to sentence this
person to life when maybe the third offense that triggered or something was some minor thing or there was some nice woman who
was involved with a man who led her astray, like Ms. Smith, who
wrote a book? She served 612 years, got pardonedor commuted
by President Clinton. She is a wonderful woman. Her son is at
Washington and Lee.
Mr. EVENSON. Congressman, as long as we have human beings,
there are going to be mistakes. But I can tell you that our system
now is so regulated from the time they appear before a magistrate
to a Federal judge, to the appeal process, that every case is scrutinized.
I would say those kind of cases are rare. Every defendant is
given a chance, in my experience, to provide assistance so that I
can go to bat and tell the judge
Mr. COHEN. She was provided assistance. And the guy that led
her into it was out in northwest Washington state, and he was
murdered. So she couldnt provide assistance anymore.
So they put her in jail and they put her in prison for a long time.
And if it werent for President Clinton, she might still be there. Because you cant provide assistance doesnt make your incarceration
more just.
Mr. EVENSON. Well, there may be a case like that. But there is
an old saying in law school that hard cases make bad law. And
right now the law works. It has worked to remove a lot of drug organizations in America.
Mr. COHEN. Well, how do you think that the experiment in Colorado and Washington is going?
Mr. EVENSON. I dont know, sir.
Mr. COHEN. Mr. Stevenson, do you have anything you want to
add?
Mr. STEVENSON. Well, I just want to emphasize that these exceptions, these extreme bad cases, I think should not inform what this
Committees Task Force does. We have a lot of data to tell us how
to look at the system.
And the truth of it is communities of color are not celebrating
mandatory minimums. I think we really need to be sober about the
impact of these laws on vulnerable populations.
I am not suggesting that individual officers go out with racist intent, but there is a real difference in how easy it is to prosecute
people in communities where you have to do your drug dealing on
the streets as opposed to communities where you actually have the
resources to do it covertly. And I think, if we dont acknowledge
that, we are going to contribute to this problem of extreme racial
disparity.

87
Then the other point. I think you are right to emphasize that the
way in which our system identifies who is bad, who is violent, is
going to be shaped by the way we characterize and direct these
laws.
If we eliminate mandatory minimums, it will not, in my judgment, eliminate or even restrict our ability to go after bad kingpins. We can still do that.
Nobody is talking about shielding drug dealers or drug traffickers from arrest and prosecution. What we are talking about
doing is protecting people who are sometimes caught in the web
and sometimes end up with these very unjust sentences.
Mr. COHEN. Thank you. And I yield back.
Mr. BACHUS. Most bank robbers arent violent unless you try to
stop them.
Mr. GOHMERT. Gentleman is not recognized at this point.
Mr. COHEN. Willie Sutton was a sweetheart.
Mr. GOHMERT. The Chair will recognize himself for 5 minutes.
Thank you.
I really appreciate the level of commitment here. Obviously, we
have got people that are quite familiar with the system.
I am also pleased that we have such an experienced group on
this Task Force, people that have dealt with the law in so many
respects.
Having been a state judge and a chief justice at a State Court
of Appeals, we used different terminology. And so, when I hear an
immediate adverse reaction to mandatory minimumsin the State,
we called it a range of punishment, and it seemed perfectly appropriate for the legislature to say, you know, for these crimes, state
jail felonyand I was a felony courtthis is the minimum, 0 to 2
years for state jail felonies; 2 years to 10 years for a third-degree;
2 to 20. But you add that bottom level.
Now, if youand first degree, 5 to 99 or life. And then, of course,
if you enhanced it up with prior convictions, then you couldI
think there was a guy arrested for stealing a Snickers at one point,
and that runs into strange facts when you have got a guy looking
at maybe a mandatory 25 years because of enhancements.
But it seems like we could deal with the areas in which there are
great injustices without totally eliminating floors.
Although most judges I know would be fair and try to act fairly
within a proper range, I am old enough to remember before the
Sentencing Guidelines back when Federal judges actually got mad
that they were having discretion taken away.
I was shocked when I started having more Federal judges say,
Well, we kind of like it. We dont have to make such tough decisions. The Sentencing Guidelines tell us what we want to do.
Mr. Evenson, I cut you off twice when you seemed to be ready
to proceed further, and I have got time.
Anything that you were wishing to illustrate that you didnt have
time to do earlier?
Mr. EVENSON. Well, thank you, Your Honor.
I just want to emphasize on behalf of the over 5,000 assistant
United States attorneys that I read the comments that they provided on this legislation. We had a survey, and I read it again this
morning.

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And if you could hear and see those statements, I think you
would be amazed at how profound reducing the minimum
mandatories would be on our ability to do our job. We will not be
able to go after the biggest drug dealers unless we have witnesses.
And, as I said, this is a hard, mean business we are in. We need
the inducement to allow conspirators to testify, and they do that.
They have to make a decision. It is a go or no-go situation.
And there with their lawyer they decide, All right. My drug days
are over. We build a rapport with them, and they tell us everybody that they have been getting their drugs from.
And they are willing to testify. Oftentimes they dont have to testify, but they are told, We dont care what you tell us, as long as
you tell us the truth. And most of them do, and those that dont
go off to prison.
And I had a lawyer tell me one timehe said, You know who
is in Federal prison? Those who cooperated and those who wished
they had cooperated. Those are the two people in Federal prison.
We need the ability to negotiate. And the sentences are fair. We
are not prosecuting users. We are not prosecuting marijuana users.
That is a myth.
We are prosecuting people, for the most part, who have prior convictions and are dealing in significant quantities over a long period
of time. That is why we have conspiracies that run 1, 2, 3, and 5
years.
That was the thing that amazed me when I went to Federal
court. You could actually charge somebody with an agreement that
lasted that long period of time, but the jury gets to see the whole
story then. Its not just a search on a drug house.
So that would be our statement, Congressman. I appreciate the
time.
Mr. GOHMERT. Anybody else wish to comment on Mr. Evensons
reflection?
Go ahead, Mr. Otis.
Mr. OTIS. I have two comments on it.
One isI apologize for interrupting Mr. Levin.
And you will have your chance.
One of the things we need to do is go by our experience. Mr.
Levin has pointed out that there has been the experience of, I
think, 16 or 17 States that over the last few years have reduced
or eliminated mandatory minimum sentencing and have not seen
an upsurge in crime.
I would point out two things.
He omitted talking about California, which has had as many premature prison releases as the rest of the States combined.
The reason for that is California is acting under the Supreme
Courts Plata decision that required early releases in order to reduce the prison population to make prison conditions constitutional.
What has happened in California, again, which has had as many
premature releases as the rest of the States combined, is that
crime has gone up, that that is not accounted for.
The other thing I would say is that we can look beyond the experience of 17 States over a few years and look to the experience of

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50 States over 50 years. We know what works, and we know what
fails.
What fails is what we had in the 1960s and 1970s, when we had
a feckless and unrealistic belief in rehabilitation and not really a
belief in incarceration. That failed. What works is what we have
done for the last 20 years.
Mr. GOHMERT. My time is well expired.
Let me recognize the gentleman from Virginia.
Mr. LEVIN. Well, can I just briefly respond?
First of all, with regard to California, I believe the reason they
got in that situation is policymakers there failed to act proactively.
That is why we have been working with legislators around the
country to address prison crowding in a prospective way, in a way,
for the Democratic process, so you dont invite Federal court supervision.
So I think California illustrates why we need to tackle this Federal prison overcrowding issue up-front rather than leaving it to
unelectedSupreme Court or other judges.
I would also say one of the reasons I think we have seen the experience with the Rockefeller Drug Laws, as you mentioned, with
the drug reform in South Carolina and other States not leading to
an increase in crime is we know that the research has shown staying longer in prison does not reduce recidivism.
Prisons do one thing well, which is incapacitate, which, obviously, with murderers, serial rapists and others, is exactly whats
needed.
But with people that have a drug problemand many of these
people who are dealing small amounts of drugs on street corners
also have a habit themselvesif we can correct that habit and get
them into a productive, law-abiding role as a citizen, including
through appropriate supervision after release, which we are not investing in on the Federal level, I think then we can continue to
drive down the crime rates in this country.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you.
At this time we recognize Mr. Scott for 5 minutes.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you.
And I thank all of our witnesses.
Mr. Stevenson, you indicated that penalties do not affect drug
use.
Is there any evidence that the 5-year mandatory minimum for
small amounts of crack when we had the 100-to-1 disparity encouraged people to instead use powder where they can have 100 times
more powder? Is there any indication that people would say, Oh,
I am not going to use the crack. I am going to use the powder?
Mr. STEVENSON. No. I think anybody who has worked with this
population knows that, very sadly, they are driven by an addiction,
by a disorder, that is actually shaping their choices. They are not
worried about tomorrow. They are not worried about the next
week.
Most of them couldnt even tell you what the penalties are. And
I think, until we recognize that, we are going to be misdirecting a
lot of our resources.
Mr. SCOTT. And if your goal is to reduce drug use, you mentioned
a public health approach?

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Mr. STEVENSON. No question. A lot of countries have actually invested in interventions and many States have also used drug
courts where they authorize treatment and supervision.
I just want to emphasize this point about supervision, which has
proved to be very effective. If you spend $50,000 a year to keep
somebody in prison, that money doesnt accomplish very much.
If you spend $10,000 a year to take somebody who has just been
released from prison and make sure that they are actually complying with very strict guidelines around treatment and services,
allowing them to move forward to get a job, et cetera, not only are
you spending less money on that person, you are dramatically increasing the chances that they are actually not going to recidivate
or continue to be a drug user.
We have got lots of data from lots of countries that talk about
these public health approaches that have radically reduced drug
addiction and improved the health of these communities.
Now, I am very sensitive to communities that have been
highjacked by drug addiction and drug abuse. The interventions
that are around health care models are the interventions that have
had the biggest impact on the health of those places.
Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Levin, I understand that your organization,
Right on Crime, takes the position that there are more cost-effective ways of reducing crime than waiting for people to get arrested
and get into a bidding war as to how much time they are going to
serve.
Have you seen the research that incarceration rates over 500 per
100,000 are counterproductive?
Mr. LEVIN. Yes. I think what the case is is that you reach a point
of diminishing returns when it comes to incarceration rates.
And that is, number one, because you are sweeping in too many
non-violent and low-risk offenders into prison, and, number two,
people are serving longer than necessary.
Mr. SCOTT. Let me ask you a question on that point, then.
If anything over 500 per 100,000 is counterproductive and ten
States are locking up African Americans at the rate of 4,000 per
100,000, if in a community of 100,000 with that kind of lockup rate
you reduced it to the 500, at which you stop getting any kind of
return, you have 3,500 fewer people in prison at, say, 20,000 each,
that is $70 million.
Are you suggesting that that community could actually reduce
crime more by spending that $70 million productively in a public
health model, education, after-school programs, getting young people on the right track, keeping them on the right track, than they
could just locking up 3,500 extra people?
Mr. LEVIN. Well, I think it is difficult to look at kind of setting
arbitrary rates or cutoffs. Obviously, States have different crime
rates and so forth.
But I would say that certainly, once you doProfessor Steve
Levitt, who has written Freakonomics, he looked at it. And John
Dilulio, who signed our Right on Crime Statement of Principles, he
was one of the biggest backers of increasing incarceration a few
decades ago.
And what they have said is we have reached a point of diminishing returns and, in fact, potentially in some places, negative re-

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turns by the sense that you could be using that money to put another police officer on the street doing some of the things they have
done in New York City and other places where they are actually
able to deter crime through a greater presence of officers in the
right places, targeting those hot spots.
So I think thatand, as you said, we have talked about problemsolving courts, a whole range of other approaches, electronic monitoring and so forth.
And so I think that we reallywithout necessarily getting into
arbitrary caps, we have got towhat we have seen in States is, because so much of the money90 percent of State corrections budgets are going to prisonsthe resources are not there often for these
alternatives.
So it is a matter of realigning our budgetary priorities and making sure people dont go to prison simply because we havent provided the alternatives.
Mr. SCOTT. Well, we have heard you need these bizarre sentences
to fight the war on drugs.
How is imposing sentences that violate common sense helpful to
the war on drugs?
Mr. LEVIN. Well, I think weas you said, half of all high school
students have tried illegal drugs. We have got to have a broader
approach that looks at prevention, that looks at substance abuse
treatment where there is many advances being made.
And I really think that certainly we know that undoubtedly drug
dealers replace one another. So simply the problem is too broad to
solve just by taking what are unfortunately a small number of the
total people dealing drugs and putting them in prison for incredibly
long sentences.
And, as we have said, these people are still going to be going to
prison 97 months on the crack cases even after the disparity was
narrowed. We are just talking about
Mr. SCOTT. When Mr. Evenson says that he cant deal with these
people, these people are nothe makes it sound like he doesnt
have any leverage over the people. These people are going to jail,
just not on bizarre sentences. They would be going to jail on fair
sentences.
Mr. LEVIN. Right.
And the question is: Is the last year or 2 of the 8 years or 10
years or 15 yearsis that last year getting us that much mileage
relative to what else we could be doing with those resources?
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you.
Let me just comment. We had submitted Chairman Sensenbrenners statement for the record. He does point out things on
which I would hope we would all agree that this Task Force has
taken up. Rather unusual to see ACLU, Heritage Foundation, liberal and conservative groups joining together.
But we have a lot of agreement with regard to issue of mens reas
requirement for offenses. We have gotand it was mentioned earlier. We really should have these codified into one code instead of
having 4,500 or 5,000 Federal crimes where a prison sentence was
added simply to show Congress was tough on some issue when
maybe it was a clerical error and it shouldnt have gone that route.

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So there are many things that we agree on that we really need
to deal with. And we really appreciate all of your input on this
issue of mandatory minimums, or what I might call a range of punishment.
And you may have other thoughts as you leave. I know I always
do: Gee, I wish I had said this, that or the other. So if you wish
to havewe provide Members 5 legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional materials
for the record.
Let me just say, if you have additional information that you
think of after you walk out, that I wish I had said that, we would
welcome that being submitted in writing for our review, and it will
certainly be reviewed.
The Ranking Member has a comment.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would ask unanimous consent that letters and testimony from
the U.S. Sentencing Commission;* Justice Strategies; Families
Against Mandatory Minimums; the Leadership Conference on Civil
and Human Rights; the Brennan Center for Justice; the Judicial
Conference that often reminds us that judges are often required to
impose sentences that violate common sense; the Human Rights
Watch;** the ACLU;*** and the Sentencing Project article in The
Hill all be entered into the record.
Mr. GOHMERT. Without objection, that will be done.
[The information referred to follows:]

*This submission included a compilation titled Amendments to the Sentencing Guidelines.

The compilation is not reprinted in this hearing record but is on file with the Task Force and
can be accessed at http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/amendment-process/reader-friendlyamendments/20140430lRFlAmendments.pdf.
**This submission included a report titled An Offer You Cant Refuse, How US Federal Prosecutors Force Drug Defendants to Plead Guilty. The report is not reprinted in this hearing
record but is on file with the Task Force and can be accessed at http://www.hrw.org/reports/
2013/12/05/offer-you-can-t-refuse.
***The item referred to is not reprinted in this hearing record but is on file with the Task
Force and can be accessed at https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/111813-lwop-complete-report.pdf.

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Mr. GOHMERT. And, again, if you have additional materialsany
of youthat you feel would be helpful to this Task Force, we will
welcome those. And the record will be open for 5 days.
Mr. Cohen.
Mr. COHEN. If I could just ask one other question. Would you
mind?
Mr. GOHMERT. Without objection.
Mr. COHEN. Thank you.
I am just guessing. I havent seenMr. Otis, I think you have
got the most experience here. I think you are maybe the only person here older than me. I think 1968 is when you graduated.
Mr. OTIS. You look like a youngster to me. More and more people
do these days.
Mr. COHEN. I know. It is all relative.
You have been doing this for a long time, and you were at DEA.
If I am wrong in my opinion, tell me. But from what I see, the drug
war over all those years hasnt changed at all as far as the American appetite for drugs, the American appetite for marijuana, for
crack, cocaine, meth, whatever, Ecstasy, Oxycontin, whatever.
And our process has been the same, arrest people, mandatory
minimums, flip them, put them in jail, put them in jail for a long
time. It hasnt worked.
Is the system basically in the same place it has been? Do you feel
like a rat going along in a cylinder there? Dont you think we ought
to just kind of come out of it and go, In 40 years, dont we need
a new theory or a new way to do this?
Mr. OTIS. What the statistics show is that drug crimes are intimately related with other kinds of crimes, with property crimes
and with crimes of violence.
And we know from the statistics that those crimes have gone
down substantially; so, I dont think it is correct to say that it
hasnt worked.
In addition to that, in order to know whether specifically drug
laws have worked, we would need to know what the state of play
would be if they had not been enforced.
And the great likelihoodbecause the drug business, I think, has
been misapprehended in some of what is going on today. The drug
businessunlike other kinds of crime, the drug business is consensual. So there is not a crime scene and a victim in the same sense
that there is in other kinds of crime.
We have talked a lot today and you have talkedand correctly
soabout violence and whether we have seen an increase or decrease in violence when some States have released drug defendants
early. But violence is not the only thing we need to care about
when we are talking about drugs.
We need to care also about harmfulness. Because the drug business is consensualfor example, the actor Philip Seymour Hoffman
who recently died of an overdose, he died as a result of a consensual drug transaction, as almost all drug transactions are.
But he and the other 13,000 heroin addicts who die each year are
equally dead, whether it is consensual or whether there has been
violence.

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We need to stomp out the harm that comes from the drug trade,
a harm that is one of most destructive, particularly in minority
communities, that is going on in the United States today.
Mr. LEVIN. Would you mind if I added one thing?
Mr. GOHMERT. Go ahead.
Mr. LEVIN. With regard to heroin, since 1990, the purity has
gone up 60 percent. The price has dropped 81 percent. So it does
indicate what we are doing with regard heroin is tragically not
working.
And I think weobviously, those whoparticularly kingpins
dealing heroin and other hard drugs should go to prison.
But what we need to do is, as I said, take a broader approach
there is pharmaceutical advances that are treating heroin addictionand, also, recognize prescription drugs.
Even with the increase in heroin recently, prescription drug
abuse is far more common than heroin abuse. And so I hope we can
also focus on that as well.
Mr. COHEN. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
I think what I got out of that is that what we need to do is
Huey Lewis probably had the answer about a new drug. We need
to find a drug that is not addictive and not harmful, but still pleasurable, and we need to put the NIH to work on it tomorrow.
Mr. GOHMERT. Well, I always thought that was what we called
glazed doughnuts.
Mr. Bachus, you asked unanimous consent.
Mr. BACHUS. Thank you.
Unanimous consent. And Professor Otis sort of reminded me of
this. I had it. But this is a crime scene, and this is in Alabama.
These are two young people that overdosed on a synthetic drug
earlier this year. So it is a different crime scene. But it looks pretty
violent, I am sure, to their parents and their friends.
I would also like to introduce
Mr. GOHMERT. Are you offering that for the
Mr. BACHUS. Yes.
Mr. GOHMERT. All right. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]

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Mr. BACHUS. I would also like to introduce a copy of the Attorney
Generals memorandum to U.S. attorneys and I particularly highlighted where the cooperation is no longer included.
But, third, Iyou know, Mr. Stevenson said something that I
think we need to at least have one panel of people, and that is
health care approach and things that we can do in drug diversion
treatment, addiction, addressing it both as a criminal problem and
a health care problem.
And I would think the U.S. attorneys would probably welcome
that more than any one group because I have had U.S. attorneys
and DAs that have expressed to me that they wish more was done
on addictions and rehabilitation, because they are really the ones
that see it every day.
Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GOHMERT. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]

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Mr. SCOTT. I just want to make it clear that I think we share
the common goal of reducing drug use in America. The question is
what the strategy will be.
Mr. Levin and Mr. Stevenson pointed out that there is a better,
more cost-effective way of actually reducing drug use in America.
Others suggested the war on drugs is working.
I think the war on drugs has been shown to be a complete failure. It has wasted money, it hasnt reduced drugs, and there are
more cost-effective ways of doing it. And that is what the debate
is all about.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you. You are right.
We all agree on that, that we want to reduce the usage of drugs.
And there have been data provided that indicate that in some ways
it is working.
To explain to each of you, we had anticipated having to go vote
around 10 a.m. And so we started out under thatthat is what we
were told by the mortal gods, with a little g, from the House floor.
While we were proceeding, we got word that the vote that we
were told to anticipate around 10 was voice-votedthankfully,
some cooperation on the Floorand that allowed us to finish without interrupting you or taking more of your time than necessary.
So we do thank you.
And, with that, we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:54 a.m., the Task Force was adjourned.]

APPENDIX

MATERIAL SUBMITTED

FOR THE

(167)

HEARING RECORD

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Supplemental Material submitted by Eric Evenson,
National Association of Assistant United States Attorneys

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