UNCONSTITUTIONALITY OF OBAMAS

EXECUTIVE ACTIONS ON IMMIGRATION

HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

FEBRUARY 25, 2015

Serial No. 1143

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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR.,
JOHN CONYERS, JR., Michigan
JERROLD NADLER, New York
Wisconsin
ZOE LOFGREN, California
LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
DARRELL E. ISSA, California
HENRY C. HANK JOHNSON, JR.,
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
Georgia
STEVE KING, Iowa
PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
JUDY CHU, California
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
TED DEUTCH, Florida
JIM JORDAN, Ohio
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
TED POE, Texas
KAREN BASS, California
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah
CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania
SUZAN DelBENE, Washington
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina
HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York
RAUL LABRADOR, Idaho
DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas
SCOTT PETERS, California
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia
RON DeSANTIS, Florida
MIMI WALTERS, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado
JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas
DAVE TROTT, Michigan
MIKE BISHOP, Michigan
SHELLEY HUSBAND, Chief of Staff & General Counsel
PERRY APELBAUM, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel

(II)

CONTENTS
FEBRUARY 25, 2015
Page

OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary .................................
The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary .........
The Honorable Trey Gowdy, a Representative in Congress from the State
of South Carolina, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .........................
The Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress from the State
of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .................................

1
3
5
6

WITNESSES
The Honorable Adam Paul Laxalt, Attorney General of Nevada
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Josh Blackman (testifying in his personal capacity), Professor, South Texas
College of Law
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Elizabeth Price Foley (testifying in her personal capacity), Professor, Florida
International University College of Law
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................
Stephen H. Legomsky (testifying in his personal capacity), Professor, Washington University School of Law
Oral Testimony .....................................................................................................
Prepared Statement .............................................................................................

10
13
19
21
25
27
59
61

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .........................................................................................................................
Material submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member, Committee on the
Judiciary ...............................................................................................................
Material submitted by the Honorable Judy Chu, a Representative in Congress
from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ........
Material submitted by the Honorable Hakeem Jeffries, a Representative in
Congress from the State of New York, and Member, Committee on the
Judiciary ...............................................................................................................

101
118
127
142

APPENDIX
MATERIAL SUBMITTED

FOR THE

HEARING RECORD

Material submitted by the Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary .........................................................................................................................
Material submitted by the Honorable Doug Collins, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary ..
(III)

162
196

UNCONSTITUTIONALITY OF OBAMAS
EXECUTIVE ACTIONS ON IMMIGRATION
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 2015

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:23 a.m., in room
2141, Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable Bob Goodlatte,
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Goodlatte, Sensenbrenner, Smith, Issa,
Forbes, King, Franks, Gohmert, Jordan, Poe, Chaffetz, Marino,
Gowdy, Labrador, Farenthold, Collins, DeSantis, Buck, Ratcliffe,
Trott, Bishop, Conyers, Nadler, Lofgren, Jackson Lee, Cohen, Chu,
Deutch, Gutierrez, Richmond, DelBene, and Jeffries.
Staff Present: (Majority) Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & General Counsel; Branden Ritchie, Deputy Chief of Staff & Chief Counsel; Allison Halataei, Parliamentarian & General Counsel; Kelsey
Williams, Clerk; George Fishman, Counsel; (Minority) Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director & Chief Counsel; Danielle Brown, Parliamentarian; and Tom Jawetz, Minority Counsel.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Good morning. The Judiciary Committee will
come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare
recesses of the Committee at any time.
We welcome everyone to this mornings hearing on the unconstitutionality of President Obamas executive actions on immigration.
I will begin by recognizing myself for an opening statement.
Last November, President Obama announced one of the biggest
constitutional power grabs ever by a President. He declared unilaterally that, by his own estimation, almost 5 million unlawful aliens
would be free from the legal consequences of their lawless actions.
Not only that, by granting them deferred action, he would bestow
upon them benefits such as legal presence, work authorization, and
access to the Social Security Trust Fund and the Earned Income
Tax Credit.
President Obama took these actions despite having stated over
20 times in the past that he didnt have the constitutional power
to take such steps on his own. As the Washington Posts own Fact
Checker concluded, Apparently, hes changed his mind.
The Constitution is clear: It is Congress duty to write our Nations laws. Yet, President Obama admitted that, I just took an action to change the law.
(1)

2
The Constitution is also clear that once laws are enacted, it is
the Presidents responsibility to enforce them. The Constitution requires the President to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Yet, the very integrity of our immigration laws is now in
question.
Twenty-six States believe that President Obamas actions would
cause them irreparable harm. They challenged his grant of deferred action in Federal district court in Texas. The court agreed
with the States and has granted a temporary injunction halting, for
the moment, the Administrations plans.
The court stated that the Administration is not just rewriting
the laws. It is creating them from scratch.
President Obama has justified his actions under the guise of
prosecutorial discretion. Law enforcement agencies do have the inherent power to exercise prosecutorial discretion, the authority as
to whether to enforce, or not enforce, the law against particular individuals.
However, telling entire classes of millions of unlawful aliens that
they face no possibility of being removed is not prosecutorial discretion. It is simply an abdication of the executive branchs responsibility to enforce the laws.
The President relies on a memo prepared by his Justice Departments Office of Legal Counsel to attempt to justify his actions as
constitutional. But that very memo finds that immigration officials discretion in enforcing the laws is not unlimited. Limits on
enforcement discretion are both implicit in, and fundamental to,
the Constitutions allocation of governmental powers between the
two political branches.
The memo admits that the executive cannot, under the guise of
exercising enforcement discretion, attempt to effectively rewrite the
laws to match its policy preferences. And the memo quotes the Supreme Courts Heckler v. Chaney decision in stating that the executive branch cannot consciously and expressly adopt a general policy that is so extreme as to amount to an abdication of its statutory responsibilities. The memo, in fact, is an indictment of President Obamas actions.
The Federal court in Texas agrees. It found that the grant of deferred action does not simply constitute inadequate enforcement.
The Government here is doing nothing to enforce the removal laws
against a class of millions of individuals. The grant of deferred action does not represent mere inadequacy. It is complete abdication.
And the court points out that President Obamas actions go beyond even utter nonenforcement. He is, in fact, granting affirmative benefits to these aliens, as I described earlier.
In absolutely no way can President Obamas actions be considered a justifiable use of the Administrations powers of prosecutorial discretion. They are a clear violation of his constitutional responsibility to faithfully execute the laws.
The President also mistakenly claims that his actions are nothing new. It is true that previous Presidents of both parties have
provided immigration relief to groups of aliens. However, most
often, the actions were based on emergencies in foreign countries,
thereby relying upon the broad constitutional power given to a
President to conduct foreign affairs.

3
For example, Chinese students were protected from deportation
after the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989.
What about President George H.W. Bushs Family Fairness policy, which the White House cites to justify its power grab? This
grant of voluntary departure was, in fact, authorized by the Immigration and Naturalization Act as it existed at the time.
Without any crisis in a foreign country to justify his actions, and
in granting deferred action without any statutory authorization,
President Obama has clearly exceeded his constitutional authority.
No Administration has so abused and misused the power of prosecutorial discretion as has the Obama administration.
By assuming legislative power, the Obama administration is
driving full speed ahead to a constitutional crisis, tilting the scales
of our three-branch government in his favor and threatening to unravel our system of checks and balances. This Administration has
entered the realm of rewriting the laws when it cant convince Congress to change them.
The House of Representatives has taken decisive action this year
to protect the Constitution. We have passed a Department of
Homeland Security appropriations bill that would defund a series
of unconstitutional actions of the Obama administration, including
this grant of deferred action.
Tragically, the House-passed bill is being filibustered in the Senate even as appropriated funds for the department are set to run
out at the end of the week.
By not even allowing the bill to be debated, those Senators who
have chosen the path of filibuster and obstruction are threatening
DHSs access to funds designed to keep Americans safe. They are
also denying the American people a fair debate on this vital issue
of whether Congress needs to take action to protect all our constitutional liberties. We can only hope that they will relent in time.
I look forward to todays hearing and the testimony of our witnesses.
It is now my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the
Committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers, for his
opening statement.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Chairman Goodlatte, and to our witnesses.
Members of the Committee, in 3 days, the Department of Homeland Security will run out of funds. While tens of thousands of Federal Government workers could be furloughed, around 200,000
workers will be forced to come back to work without receiving a
paycheck. They will be told to patrol the border, conduct investigations, and secure our ports, but they will not be paid.
Now, it is fairly well known that the Department of Homeland
Security has notoriously low morale. That has been a problem since
the departments creation a decade ago. This wont help.
But I am sure those workers will do their jobs, which is more
than I can say for the legislative branch of our Federal Government. Why do I say that? Because Congress has certain responsibilities. Some are complicated and some are less complicated, and
we have failed to live up to our responsibilities for years.

4
First, consider the most basic obligation we have. It is our responsibility to pass bills to fund the Government. If we dont do our
job, the Government shuts down.
Congressional Republicans got their wish in October 2013 and
shut the Government down for more than 2 weeks. Now, the majority here again is set on a collision course. This time, they will shut
down the Department of Homeland Security because they refuse to
pass a clean spending bill, because they want to block the Administrations executive actions on immigration.
Now, keep in mind that the spending bill we are talking about
was negotiated between Republicans and Democrats in the House
and the Senate. Truth be told, there are aspects of that bill that
I disagree with. I strongly oppose that detention be mandated and
believe that it is wasteful and unjust to include that language in
the appropriations bill. But I also understand the importance of
funding the Department of Homeland Security and the need to
keep our Nation safe.
Second, Congress is also failing to do its jobs because it is ultimately our responsibility to fix our broken immigration system. Instead of doing that work, we are holding hearing after hearing to
vilify the President for taking important and common-sense steps
to prioritize the deportation of felons before families.
The limited legislation that this Committee has considered would
make our immigration system even less efficient, less humane, and
less able to meet the needs of American families and businesses.
Earlier this month, we held two Immigration Subcommittee
hearings on draft language of four deportation-only bills that would
separate families, strip protection from DREAMers, destroy the agricultural industry and the millions of jobs that depend on it, and
return vulnerable children to face persecution and violence with no
meaningful due process.
Finally, I want to note that the title of todays hearing demonstrates a glaring disrespect for the Office of the Presidency and
for this institutions responsibility to conduct oversight that is rooted in fact, rather than political presumption. The title of todays
hearing is The Unconstitutionality of Obamas Executive Actions
on Immigration. Not President Obamas Executive Actions, but
Obamas Executive Actions. Since when are we on such familiar
terms with our Commander in Chief? I cannot recall a previous Administration during which Members of Congress from either side of
the aisle showed such a persistent disrespect for the Office of the
Presidency.
The title of this hearing is also interesting because it is a statement, not a question. It just presumes that the Administrations actions are unconstitutional, even though no court has found the actions unconstitutional, and there is strong legal authority and historical precedent supporting these policy decisions.
So in closing, our current immigration system is not working for
American families, businesses, or the economy. These problems require real legislative solutions. So I urge my colleagues on this
Committee to start doing the job that we were sent here to do.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time and thank
you.
Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman.

5
It is now my pleasure to recognize the Chairman of the Judiciary
Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, the gentleman
from South Carolina, Mr. Gowdy, for his opening statement.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, the thread that holds the tapestry of our country
together is respect for and adherence to the rule of law. The law
is the greatest unifying and the greatest equalizing force that we
have in our culture. The law is what makes the richest person
drive the precise same speed limit as the poorest person. The law
is what makes the richest person in this country pay his or her
taxes on precisely the same day as the poorest person in this country.
The law, Mr. Chairman, is symbolized by a blindfolded woman
holding a set of scales and a sword. The law is both a shield and
a sword. And it is the foundation upon which this Republic stands.
We think so highly of the law, Mr. Chairman, that in the oath
of citizenship administered to those who pledge allegiance to this
country, to their new country, it makes six different references to
the law. So attempts to undermine the law via Executive fiat, regardless of motivation, are detrimental to the foundation of a democracy.
President Obama, after the November midterm elections, I hasten to add, announced one of the largest extraconstitutional acts
ever by a Chief Executive. He declared, unilaterally, almost 5 million undocumented aliens would receive deferred action under some
newfangled definition of prosecutorial discretion. Moreover, in addition to using prosecutorial discretion as a license to rewrite the
law, he also conferred benefits on those same people.
You may like the policy. You may wish the policy where the law.
But one person does not make law in a republic. If you enjoy a single person making law, you should investigate living in another
country, because our Framers did not give us, nor have generations
of our fellow citizens fought and served and sacrificed for a single
person to make law in a unilateral way.
So removing consequences for breaking the law is one thing. Distilling benefits such as work authorization and immigration benefits is another.
The President himself recognized his own inability to do this, Mr.
Chairman. More than 20 separate times he said he lacked the
power to do what he ultimately did.
In 2011, he said this, and I quote, The notion that I could just
suspend deportations through Executive orders, that is just not the
case. He told us time and time again, Mr. Chairman, that he was
not a king.
His position may have changed, but the Constitution has not.
And that document is clear and it is time-tested and it is true, and
it says that Congress passes laws and it is the responsibility of the
Chief Executive to take care that those laws are faithfully enforced.
Prosecutorial discretion
[Technical difficulty.]
Mr. GOWDY. Is that better, Mr. Court Reporter? Let me see
where I was.

6
His position may have changed, but the Constitution has not.
Prosecutorial discretion is real and constitutionally valid, Mr.
Chairman, but it is not a synonym for anarchy.
As U.S. District Court Judge Andrew Hanen wrote in his recent
opinion, DHS does have discretion in the manner in which it chooses to fulfill the express will of Congress. It cannot, however, enact
a program whereby it not only ignores the dictates of Congress, but
actively moves to thwart them.
The Constitution gives the President a lot of power, Mr. Chairman. He is the Commander in Chief. He nominates the Supreme
Court Justices. He can veto legislation for any reason or no reason.
He can fail to defend the constitutionality of the law. He has the
power of pardon. He has a lot of power, Mr. Chairman.
But what he cannot do is make law by himself. That is the responsibility of the Congress. If this Presidents unilateral
extraconstitutional acts are not stopped, future Presidents, you
may rest assured, will expand that power of the executive branch,
thereby threatening the constitutional equilibrium.
The argument that previous Administrations have acted outside
constitutional boundaries holds no merit with me. The fact that
other people made mistakes is not a license for this Executive to
do the same thing.
Mr. President, in conclusion, we live in a country where process
matters. The end does not justify the means, no matter how good
the intentions. When a police officer fails to check the right box on
an application for a search warrant, the fruits of that search warrant are suppressed. What a police officer, even though he has the
right suspect for the right crime, but he just fails to include one
small part of those prophylactic Miranda warnings, what happens?
The statement is suppressed, even though you have the right person, even though you have the right crime, because we view process over the end.
And I am going to say this, then I will finish, I will say this to
those who benefit from the Presidents policies, you may be willing
to allow the end to justify the means in this case. You may well
like the fact that the President has abused prosecutorial discretion
and conferred benefits in an unprecedented way. You may benefit
from the Presidents failure to enforce the law today. But I will
make you this promise, there will come a day where you will cry
out for the enforcement of the law. There will come a day where
you long for the law to be the foundation of this Republic. So you
be careful what you do with the law today, because if you weaken
it today, you weaken it forever.
With that, I would yield back.
Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentleman for the very cogent remarks.
It is now my pleasure to recognize the Ranking Member of the
Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, the
gentlewoman from California, Ms. Lofgren, for her opening statement.
Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 113th Congress is
considered to have been one of the most do-nothing Congresses in
history. The biggest symbol of the Republican failure to govern was
the unnecessary and irresponsible shutdown that lasted from Octo-

7
ber 1 through October 16. Federal employees were furloughed for
a combined total of 6.6 million days. $2 billion was spent on payroll
to these furloughed employees for work that they were prevented
from doing. The recovering economy took a hit, and millions of
Americans were denied access to programs and services that they
rely on.
Perhaps it is fitting, then, that the 113th Congress ended with
the so-called Cromnibus, a spending bill that promised to yet again
put us on the path toward a government shutdown.
We are only 2 months into the 114th Congress, but it already
seems like the Republican majority in the House and Senate is trying to outdo itself. For the past 6 weeks, rather than proceed with
the DHS funding bill that Democrats and Republicans in the House
and Senate agreed to last year, Republican leaders in the House
and Senate have insisted that funding be contingent on a series of
poison pill immigration riders demanded by the most extreme
Members and supported by all but a few.
Since the Cromnibus was first hatched, many Republicans have
argued that the President acted unconstitutionally on November
20, when he and the Secretary of Homeland Security announced a
series of measures designed to bring a measure of sense to our broken immigration system. We have been told that these measures
cannot be permitted to take effect.
Last week, of course, a Federal judge issued a preliminary injunction halting two of those measures, the Deferred Action for Parental Accountability Program and the expansion of the Deferred
Action for Childhood Arrivals program. These efforts are designed
to offer temporary protection from deportation to certain parents of
U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents, and to DREAMers
with long ties to our country. The Department of Justice this week
requested a stay of the injunction and noticed an appeal.
The matter is firmly in the hands of the Federal courts, the
branch of the Government that the Constitution entrusts to settle
disputes arising under the Constitution and the laws of the United
States.
Some people, including some Republicans in the House and Senate, have speculated that a court injunction would convince Republican leadership to stop holding the spending bill hostage. What we
have seen over the past 2 weeks, however, is that many Republicans are even more determined to take us over a cliff and once
more shut down the Government.
Several points are worth noting. First, we continue to hear Republicans minimize the impact of a shutdown on national security
by arguing that 85 percent of DHS employees were deemed essential during the last Government shutdown. I just cant understand
how we in Congress would take comfort at the idea of forcing Border Patrol agents to secure our borders, Coast Guard personnel to
patrol the seas, and ICE officers and agents to conduct law enforcement investigations and secure detention facilities, without receiving their paycheck. It is unconscionable, really.
Further, it is bizarre that we will de-fund of the E-Verify program, stop the immigration enforcement efforts, but at the same
time, because they are fee-supported, the processing of immigration
petitions will be unimpeded. So the effort stops immigration en-

8
forcement, but it does nothing to actually stop the processing of immigration petitions.
Second, since we know the court has already temporarily halted
implementation of DAPA, expanded DACA, it is important to remember what other initiatives congressional Republicans are trying to block as part of DHS funding. They voted overwhelmingly
to eliminate the DACA program itself, stripping protection for more
than 600,000 DREAM Act kids and subjecting them once more to
deportation. They voted to prevent DHS from implementing a new
enforcement strategy along our southern border and creating three
new law enforcement task forces. They voted to block DHS and
DOD from working together to ensure that U.S. citizens who wish
to enlist in the military would be able to do so notwithstanding immigration status of close relatives. They voted to stop DHS from
taking important steps to capitalize on the talents of entrepreneurs, to help companies attract and retain highly skilled immigrants, and to promote citizenship.
Just yesterday, USCIS issued a final rule extending work authorization to the spouses of certain H-1B visa holders who are beneficiaries of approved employment-based immigrant visa petitions. If
the appropriations bill passed by the House were to have become
law, USCIS would have been prevented from finalizing that rule.
Republicans dont talk about the fact that they are refusing to
fund DHS unless they block each of these efforts, but that is what
they voted to do.
Turning to todays hearing, I note that although the title of this
hearing, as has been mentioned, presumes that the Presidents executive actions are unconstitutional, no court, including the Texas
District Court that issued the preliminary injunction, has found
that these actions are unconstitutional.
In fact, a challenge to the original DACA program brought by the
State of Mississippi was thrown out of court for lack of standing.
And a challenge to the Administrations recent executive actions
blocked by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio was also dismissed
for lack of standing.
Of course, I am disappointed by the courts ruling, and I know
millions of American families across the country are also greatly
disappointed. Still, I expect that both programs will be upheld as
fully within the Presidents legal authority by appellate courts.
I say this because there is ample legal and historical precedent
supporting the Presidents action. The Supreme Court has long recognized the Administrations authority to exercise prosecutorial discretion when enforcing our immigration laws and has specifically
recognized that granting deferred action is a legitimate exercise of
that authority. Congress directed the Secretary of Homeland Security to establish national enforcement priorities and policies, and
empowered the Secretary to perform acts that he deems necessary
for carrying out his authority under the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Every year, Congress gives the Administration only enough
money to apprehend, detain, and remove a fraction of the people
in this country who are removable, and additionally directs the department to prioritize the removal of people with criminal convictions based on the severity of the offense. Although the Texas court

9
ruling seems to turn on the fact that DACA recipients may apply
for work authorization and Social Security cards, it fails to acknowledge that the legal authority for granting work authorization
and Social Security cards is entirely distinct from the authority to
grant deferred action and, in fact, is statutory. All of those authorities long predated DACA, and Congress has never taken action to
limit that discretion.
This is arguably the fourth hearing, Mr. Chairman, that we have
held on the legal authority of the Presidents actions on immigration. The last two hearings
Mr. GOODLATTE. The gentlewoman is advised that she is now 2
1/2 minutes over. We all exceeded by a minute or so.
Ms. LOFGREN. I will then conclude by saying that the courts will
ultimately decide whether the Administrations programs can take
effect. It is our responsibility to reform the law, and it would be
irresponsible of us to shut the Government down. We should allow
the courts to do their jobs, and we should do our own.
I would yield back.
Mr. GOODLATTE. The Chair thanks the gentlewoman.
We welcome our distinguished panel today. If you would all rise,
I will begin by swearing in the witnesses.
Do you and each of you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Thank you very much. Let the record reflect that all the witnesses responded in the affirmative.
Adam Paul Laxalt currently serves as Nevadas 33rd Attorney
General and is the youngest attorney general in the country. Prior
to becoming attorney general, he was in private practice in Las
Vegas. Attorney General Laxalt served in Iraq at Forward Operating Base Camp Victory, where his team was in charge of more
than 20,000 detainees. He has also served as a Special Assistant
U.S. Attorney, as an assistant professor of law in the Leadership,
Ethics and the Law Department at the U.S. Naval Academy, and
as a Special Adviser to the Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. Attorney General Laxalt graduated
magna cum laude from Georgetown University and also graduated
from Georgetown University Law Center.
Professor Josh Blackman is an assistant professor at the South
Texas of College of Law, specializing in constitutional law and the
United States Supreme Court, and is the author of Unprecedented: The Constitutional Challenge to Obamacare and over a
dozen other articles about constitutional law. Professor Blackman
clerked for the Honorable Danny J. Boggs of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit and for the Honorable Kim R. Gibson
of the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania,
and is also the founder and president of the Harland Institute,
which provides a stylized law school experience for high school
classrooms, and the founder of the Internets premier Supreme
Court fantasy league. Professor Blackman graduated magna cum
laude from George Mason University Law School and magna cum
laude from Penn State with a B.S. in information sciences and
technology.

10
Professor Elizabeth Price Foley is a founding member and professor at Florida International University College of Law, where
she teaches constitutional law. Prior to joining FIU, Professor Foley
was a professor of law at Michigan State University College of
Law, and served as a law clerk to the Honorable Carolyn King of
the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Professor
Foley is the author of multiple books on constitutional issues, including Liberty for All: Reclaiming Individual Privacy in a New
Era of Public Morality, and presently serves on the editorial board
of the Cato Supreme Court Review. Professor Foley graduated
summa cum laude from the University of Tennessee College of Law
and holds a B.A. in history from Emory University and an LL.M.
from Harvard Law School.
Professor Stephen H. Legomsky is the John S. Lehmann University Professor at Washington University School of Law, focusing on
U.S. comparative and international immigration, and is the founding director of the law schools Whitney R. Harris World Law Institute, a center for instruction and research in international and
comparative law. He recently returned from a 2-year leave of absence, serving as chief counsel of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration
Services. He is the coauthor of Immigration and Refugee Law and
Policy, which has been a required text at 176 law schools since its
inception. Professor Legomsky graduated first in his class at the
University of San Diego School of Law and clerked for the U.S.
Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.
Your written statements will be entered into the record in their
entirety, and I ask that you each summarize your testimony in 5
minutes or less. To help you stay within that time limit, there is
a timing light on your table. When the light switches from green
to yellow, you have 1 minute to conclude your testimony. And when
the light turns red, that is it. Your time is up. Please stop.
Attorney General Laxalt, welcome. You may begin.
TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE ADAM PAUL LAXALT,
ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEVADA

Mr. LAXALT. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Conyers, and

Members of the Committee, my name is Adam Paul Laxalt, and I
am the Attorney General of Nevada. On behalf of Nevada, I thank
you for the opportunity to testify today about the States lawsuit
challenging President Obamas unilateral executive action granting
deferred action to over 4 million people. I represent one of the 26
States that have sued the Federal Government.
While immigration is the substantive issue underlying the Presidents executive action, this lawsuit is not ultimately about immigration. Rather, it is about the Presidents attempt to change the
law through unconstitutional executive action.
Like most of us, I am the descendent of immigrants. My ancestors came here in search of a better life. My grandfather, Paul Laxalt, was the son of an immigrant sheepherder. He rose to become
the Governor of Nevada and a United States Senator. In our Nations history, similar stories have been repeated over and over.
They are what we have come to know as the American dream.
However, it has never been true that in order to sympathize with
the plight of immigrants, or to believe in the American dream, one

11
must reject our constitutional system. To borrow a phrase our
President is fond of using, that is a false choice. In significant part,
it is our commitment to the rule of law and to our Constitution
that has drawn people to our shores across generations.
Before taking unilateral action, the President said the following,
I am President. I am not the king. I cant do these things just by
myself. There is a limit to the discretion that I can show, because
I am obliged to execute the law. I cant just make the laws up
myself. We cant ignore the law. The fact of the matter is, there
are laws on the books that I have to enforce. These are a series
of comments the President made before this action.
Subsequently, on November 20, 2014, after repeatedly acknowledging his duty to faithfully enforce the immigration laws passed
by this body, and after emphasizing that he lacked the authority
to unilaterally change those laws, President Obama directed his
Secretary of Homeland Security to do just that and change the law.
To quote the President himself, he said, I just took an action to
change the law, that on November 25.
In accord with earlier statements by the President, a coalition of
States brought suit in Federal court to enjoin the Presidents unilateral action. Since the lawsuit was originally filed, the number of
States challenging the Presidents action has grown to the majority
of the 50 States. The States lawsuit focuses on three areas.
First, the Constitution requires the President take care that the
laws be faithfully executed. During the Korean War, President Truman, relying on the exigencies of war, unilaterally seized the Nations steel mills. President Truman justified unilateral action because Congress had refused to pass a statute authorizing his action. The Supreme Court held that Trumans actions were unconstitutional.
Here, as Judge Hanen, the Federal judge presiding over this
case, has observed, no statute gives the Department of Homeland
Security the discretion it is trying to exercise. Quite the contrary,
the Presidents Executive order not only ignores the dictates of
Congress, but actively thwarts them. For the same reason that
Trumans unilateral action in the steel seizure case was held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, we think President Obamas
unilateral action here is unconstitutional.
Second, Federal statutory law, namely the Administrative Procedures Act, similarly requires that when an agency issues a substantive rule, it must be consistent with Congress clear statutory
commands. Under unambiguous Federal statutory law, the Department of Homeland Securityhere I quote Judge Hanen againis
tasked with the duty of removing illegal aliens. Congress has provided that it shall do this. The word shall certainly deprives the
DHS of the right to do something that is clearly contrary to Congress intent.
The Presidents plan that millions of illegally present individuals
be granted legal present work authorization eligibility for State
and Federal benefits cannot be squared with Federal law, and,
therefore, we believe violates the Administrative Procedures Act.
Third, when a Federal agency changes the rules, like the President has ordered here, the Administrative Procedures Act also requires that due process is followed. That is, the agency must give

12
fair notice of the rule change and allow public comment before implementing the change. Everyone agrees that was not done here,
so this is the third reason the States are arguing the Presidents
action violates the law.
As you all know, on February 16, Judge Hanen found the States
had standing and issued a preliminary injunction enjoining the implementation of the DAPA program. Now why Nevada joined, as
Nevadas chief law enforcement officer, Nevada law requires that
I initiate or join litigation wherever necessary to protect and secure
the interests of the State.
This suit is not about immigration. It is not about politics. It is
about the rule of law and our constitutional system. This lawsuit
transcends policy differences and seeks to prevent legislation from
being usurped by executive fiat.
Nevada joined this lawsuit because upholding our constitutional
process is more significant than any policy directive that any political party may be pushing at a particular time.
Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to testify before
this Committee about this important issue.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Laxalt follows:]

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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, General Laxalt.
Professor Blackman, welcome. I understand your parents are
with us today.
Mr. BLACKMAN. My dad is in the same color tie, so you know who
he is.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Excellent.
TESTIMONY OF JOSH BLACKMAN (TESTIFYING IN HIS PERSONAL CAPACITY), PROFESSOR, SOUTH TEXAS COLLEGE OF
LAW

Mr. BLACKMAN. Thank you. Chairman Goodlatte, Ranking Member Conyers, and Members of the Judiciary Committee, my name
is Josh Blackman. I am a constitutional law professor at the South
Texas College of Law in Houston, Texas. I am honored to have the
opportunity to testify about why DAPA violates the Constitution
and imposes a severe threat to the separation of powers.
In my brief time, I have three points. First, DAPA is an unprecedented exercise of presidential lawmaking power and is not consonant with the previous exercises of deferred action. Second,
DAPA violates the Presidents duty to take care the laws are faithfully executed, as the Executive must enforce laws in good faith.
Third, I will sound an alarm. Nonenforcement poses an encroaching threat to the separation of powers and the rule of law that Congress, not just the courts, must take steps to halt.
So first, Congress has not acquiesced or given the President the
authority to implement DAPA. The Justice Departments Office of
Legal Counsel claimed that four previous instances of deferred action justify DAPA and its antecedent DACA through express or implicit congressional approval. These claims are demonstrably false.
So first, in 1997, deferred action was granted for battered aliens
under the Violence Against Women Act, VAWA, where a petition
had already been approved, but a visa was not immediately available. Here, the deferred action served as a temporary bridge for
those who would soon receive permanent status according to the
laws of Congress.
Second, in 2001, deferred action was granted for aliens who were
readily deemed to be bona fides under the Victims of Trafficking
and Violence Protection Act. Here, too, the differed action served
as a bridge. Lawful status was immediately available on the other
side of the deferral.
Third, in 2005, deferred action was granted to foreign students
who unfortunately lost their visas when Gulf Coast schools were
closed following Hurricane Katrina. The deferred action bridged the
gap and gave the students 4 months to enroll in another college or
university in order to regain the status previously held.
Fourth, in 2009, deferred action was granted for aliens who were
widowed by the untimely death of their citizen spouse before the
minimum 2-year period. Deferred action was granted where visa
petitions had been filed but not completely adjudicated by the Government because of administrative delays. Again, a visa waited
shortly after deferral.
Historically, deferred action acted as a temporary bridge from
one status to another, where benefits were construed as immediately arising post-deferred action. In contrast with DAPA, de-

20
ferred action serves not as a bridge but as a tunnel to dig under
and through the INA. There is no visa, the proverbial pot of gold,
awaiting on the other side of this deferred action rainbow.
My second point is that DAPA violates the Presidents duty to
take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Article II imposes
a duty on the President unlike any other in the Constitution. He
shall, must, take care that the laws be faithfully executed. DAPA
violates this duty for three reasons.
First, with DACA, the blueprint for DAPA, the Administration
limited officers to turn discretion into a rubberstamp. This did not
reallocate resources, or defer to congressional policy, but rather
was an effort to bypass it, a transparent one at that.
Second, because DAPA is not consistent with congressional policy, according to Justice Jacksons decision in the steel seizure case,
Presidential power is at its lowest ebb.
Third, like the mythical phoenix, DACA and DAPA arose from
the ashes of congressional defeat. The President instituted these
policies after Congress voted down the legislation he wanted. Further, the President repeated over and over and over again that he
couldnt act unilaterally in the precise manner he did. His actions
and statements create the prima facie case of bad faith and point
to a violation of the take care clause.
Third and finally, while I support comprehensive immigration reform, the Presidents unconstitutional actions cannot be sanctioned.
I hasten to add, if upheld, Democrats have much, much more to
fear from this dangerous precedent. Generally, Democrats like
when the Government takes more action and Republicans like
when the Government takes less action. Today, Democrats may approve of the Presidents decision to halt deportations, delay unpopular provisions of Obamacare, or not prosecute marijuana
crimes. However, the situation would be very, very different if a
Republican President declined to enforce provisions of the Tax
Code, wavived mandates under environmental laws, or declined to
implement Obamacare altogether.
In the words of James Madison, Federalist No. 51, the only way
to keep the separations of power in place is for ambition to counteract ambition. Although the courts play an essential role to serve as
the bulwarks of a limited Constitution, our Republic cannot leave
the all-important task of safeguarding freedom to the judiciary.
To eliminate the dangers of nonenforcement, the Congress must
counteract the Presidents ambition. The failure to do so here will
continue the one-way ratchet toward executive supremacy and the
dilution of the powers of the Congress and the sovereignty of the
people.
The rule of law and the Constitution itself are destined to fail if
the separations of powers turn into mere parchment barriers that
can be disregarded when the President deems a law broken.
Thank you very much, and I welcome your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Blackman follows:]*
*Note: Supplemental material submitted with this statement is not reprinted in this record
but is on file with the Committee, and can also be accessed at: http://docs.house.gov/meetings/
JU/JU00/20150225/103010/HHRG-114-JU00-Wstate-BlackmanJ-20150225-SD003.pdf.

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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Professor Blackman.
Professor Foley, welcome.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH PRICE FOLEY (TESTIFYING IN HER
PERSONAL CAPACITY), PROFESSOR, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW

Ms. FOLEY. Chairman Goodlatte, Ranking Member Conyers,

Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify
again today.
My criticisms with the Presidents immigration actions are based
on legal process and not any particular policy or political results.
What shape immigration reform may ultimately take is not my
concern as a constitutional scholar. My sole concern is with preserving the Constitution and its separation of powers architecture.
President Obama has repeatedly said that his motivation for taking executive action on immigration is because he wants to fix our
broken immigration system. What this means is that he is trying
to fix our immigration law because, of course, immigration law is
the only immigration system that we have.
So he thinks our immigration law is broken, and he believes that
it is broken because it fails to exempt certain categories that he
thinks deserve exemption from deportation and to whom he believes the law should grant benefits, such as work permits. But fixing a law by unilaterally changing it by granting exemptions, remedies, and benefits that the law doesnt provide is legislating. Or
to be more precise, it is amending. That is a power that is given
exclusively to Congress by the Constitution.
The Presidents duty under the Constitution is not to fix a law
that he thinks is broken, but to faithfully execute that law. When
a President takes it upon himself the power to change a law he
doesnt like, we have no democracy anymore. We have, instead, a
legislature of one.
If Congress doesnt oppose President Obamas Executive orders
on immigration, it will be writing its own institutional obituary.
When Congress fails to express disagreement with executive action,
the courts tend to construe that as acquiescence or implied authorization by Congress. This is so-called category one from Justice
Jacksons concurrence in the Youngstown steel seizure case. So
Congress needs to be very careful here. It has a constitutional responsibility to vigorously protect its turf.
President Obamas immigration actions are unconstitutional for
three separate and distinct reasons that I elaborate in the written
statement. First, they alter the status of certain illegal immigrants,
magically transforming them from deportable to not deportable.
Second, they provide a remedy called deferred action that Congress
has not explicitly or implicitly authorized for this category of people. Third, they confer benefits upon certain illegal immigrants
that, again, Congress has not explicitly or implicitly approved for
this population.
While any one of these particular reasons will render executive
action unconstitutional, when you have all three of them existing
as you do here with President Obamas executive actions on immigration, it creates sort of a Bermuda Triangle of unconstitutionality

26
that has a uniquely powerful gravitational pull that is capable of
eviscerating Article Is legislative powers.
It is the combination of all three of these aspects of President
Obamas Executive orders on immigration that make it uniquely
dangerous to this institution. I would like to highlight two points
that I elaborate on in the written statement that I think bear a little special mention.
First, by granting work permits to DACA and DAPA recipients,
President Obamas immigration orders encourage employers to hire
illegal immigrants over lawful residents. That is because the Affordable Care Act does not allow illegal immigrants to obtain tax
credits when they buy qualifying health insurance. So what happens is if you hire more DACA and DAPA recipients, this lessens
the employers exposure to what is called the employer responsibility tax under the ACA. So the more illegal immigrants you hire
who are eligible for DACA and DAPA, then the fewer who are eligible to buy health insurance, and the fewer who are going to obtain
a tax credit for doing so, and, therefore, the fewer employees that
you have in your workplace who are capable of triggering that employer responsibility tax.
Now, why do I go into that detail? Because it means one important thing. President Obamas immigration actions undermine the
ACA itself by undermining its goal of providing insurance via the
workplace. So it is no small irony here that by granting work permits to DACA and DAPA recipients, President Obama is, in fact,
undermining his own signature legislative achievement.
Second, DACA and DAPA recipients are eligible to apply for
something called for advance parole. That means they can get advanced permission to leave the country and come back relatively
quickly. Without advance parole, if you enter this country illegally
and you leave, you have to then stay out for a long period of time,
usually about 3 to 10 years, before you are allowed to reenter. So
once a DACA or DAPA recipient reenters this country after being
advanced paroled, they are considered to be paroled back into the
country, and paroled individuals under the statute are eligible to
adjust their legal status. They can do this as long as they qualify
for a visa, such as, let us say, an employer-sponsored visa.
So what does this mean? It means that at least for some DACA
and DAPA recipients, obtaining advanced parole will provide a
Mr. GOODLATTE. Professor Foley, you have exceeded your time
limit considerably as well. Could you please summarize?
Ms. FOLEY. Absolutely.
It means that they will be able to have a pathway to U.S. citizenship. This is problematic because Congress has the sole power to
decide who is granted citizenship under the Constitution. And even
if just one person under DACA and DAPA is granted advanced parole and are applying, subsequently, for an adjustment of status,
what we have is the fundamental usurpation of Congress power
over naturalization.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Foley follows:]

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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Professor.
Professor Legomsky, welcome.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN H. LEGOMSKY (TESTIFYING IN HIS
PERSONAL CAPACITY), PROFESSOR, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW

Mr. LEGOMSKY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking

Member Conyers, and honorable Members of this Committee, for
the privilege of testifying at this important hearing.
I appreciate that reasonable minds can and do differ about the
policy decisions, but I want to respectfully share my opinion that
the Presidents actions are clearly within his legal authority. That
is not just my opinion, by the way. This past November, 135 immigration law professors and scholars joined in a letter expressing
their views that these actions are well within the legal authority
of the executive branch.
We are people who have spent years and, in some cases, including mine, decades studying, teaching, researching, and writing on
immigration law, and we are very familiar with what the statute
allows and what it forbids.
The President has not just one, but multiple sources of legal authority for these actions, and I have submitted a detailed written
statement that documents each of them. I also identify there every
legal objection I could think of that the Presidents critics have offered, and I explain why, in my view, none of them ultimately withstand scrutiny.
So with limited time, I will hit just a few key points and refer
you, please, to the written statement.
Deferred action has been standard agency practice for many decades, and it has been expressly recognized by Congress in several
provisions and in many court decisions. Furthermore, every lawyer
knows that statutes are not the only source of law. The most explicit legal authority for deferred action, but not the only authority,
is in the formal agency regulations, which have authorized it since
the earliest days of the Reagan administration. These regulations,
by the way, were adopted through notice and comment procedures,
and they do have the force of law.
None of these laws, not one of them, says or even remotely implies that deferred action is per se illegal whenever the number of
recipients is large.
The most vocal critics, including Judge Hanen in Brownsville,
have misunderstood what deferred action is. They have confused
deferred action itself with certain things you can apply for if you
get deferred action. Deferred action itself is just one form of prosecutorial discretion. It is a decision not to prioritize a persons removal, at least for the moment. The only thing affirmative about
it is that the agency is giving the person a piece of paper, letting
them know that that is the case.
Every immigration scholar and practitioner knows that deferred
action can be revoked at any time for any reason, and the Government can bring removal proceedings at any time. Contrary to what
my new friend Professor Foley has said, there is nothing in any law
that says that this makes a person who is deportable not deport-

60
able or that it gives them some kind of status. That is simply not
true.
It is true that existing laws allow deferred action recipients to
apply for certain other things, including work permits, and if they
are granted, Social Security cards.
But the executive actions do not touch any of those laws. So my
feeling is, if you object to them, then by all means, argue for challenging them. But there is nothing wrong with deferred action
itself, or this particular use of it.
Importantly also, DACA and DAPA applications
Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman? Can we ask the witness to speak into
the microphone, please?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I am sorry.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Pull it a little closer to you.
Mr. KING. Thank you.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Sure.
DACA and DAPA applications do not create binding rules or create substantive rights or statuses. The Secretarys memo says this
explicitly. They are discretionary, both on paper and in actual practice. As for the latter, I hope there is a chance to expand on that
subject during the question period.
Finally, there have been some melodramatic claims that if these
executive actions are legal, why then there must not be any limits
at all on what future Presidents can do. My written statement
identify at least four significant, concrete, realistic limits. I have
time now just to whiz through them.
In a nutshell, one, the President cannot simply refuse to spend
resources Congress has appropriated for enforcement, as President
Nixon famously discovered. But that is not a problem here because
President Obama has spent every penny Congress has given him
for immigration enforcement, and he has used it to remove 2 million people. Nothing in these executive actions will prevent him
from continuing to do the same.
Two, the governing statutes impose limits. They will generally
indicate how broad the executive discretion is in a particular area.
In this case, Congress has given the Secretary of Homeland Security especially broad responsibility for, and I quote, establishing
national immigration enforcement policies and priorities.
Now nobody claims that power is limitless. It is, of course, subject to any specific statutory constraints. But to date, none of the
critics have identified any specific statutory provisions that they
can credibly say DACA or DAPA violate.
Three, the particular priorities cant be arbitrary or capricious.
These particular executive actions set three priorities: national security, public safety, and border security. I doubt many would say
those are irrational.
And fourth and finally, even if the priorities are rational, they
cant conflict with any enforcement priorities that Congress has
specifically mandated. But here it is just the opposite. Congress
has expressly mandated exactly these very same three priorities.
So there are serious limits, and these actions fully respect them.
Thank you very much again for the opportunity to testify.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Legomsky follows:]

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Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you, Professor.
I will start the round of questioning, and I will recognize myself.
I will start with a question for you, Professor Legomsky.
You state in your testimony that the Administrations recent executive actions do not even approach an abdication of its statutory
responsibilities.
What, in your view, would the Administration have to do to abdicate its statutory responsibilities? Would granting deferred action
to all 11 million unlawful aliens be enough?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. My answer to that is yes, that would be enough.
Mr. GOODLATTE. So would, say, 9 million, would that exceed it?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. The answer to that would depend on an empirical question. The question is, would the President still be spending
substantially the resources Congress has provided?
Mr. GOODLATTE. Let us remember the President, when you talk
about deportations, the President counts people for deportation the
previous Administrations did not count because they simply turned
them back at the border rather than taking them through a process
and deporting them. So about two-thirds of the people who are deported under the Presidents 2 million figure that you cited were
not counted in previous Administrations, because they werent put
through that process.
But, be that as it may, you are saying that if the President blows
through all the money in a way that uses it all up, whatever that
number is, that is the number of people he can give not only deferred action to but also employment authorization and Social Security benefits and Earned Income Tax Credit and legal presence
in the United States?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, as I just said a moment ago, that is only
one of what I see as four different limits. But the answer is yes.
The President must spend the resources Congress has provided.
Mr. GOODLATTE. And as long as he does that, if that meets the
number, if he spends it all on 100,000 people, which is the number
of actual deportations that occurred last year, 102,000, then he can
give deferred action to the other 10.9 million people who are unlawfully present in the United States. That is your answer?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. No, it is not, Mr. Goodlatte. For I think the third
time, I think there are other limits as well, and they include not
only spending the money but making sure it is within the terms
of the statute, making sure the priorities are rational, making sure
the priorities are compatible with those Congress has specifically
mandated and so on. So it would depend on all of those things.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Well, let me just ask our other panelists, Attorney General Laxalt, would you like to respond to that assertion,
that the President has this massive discretion?
Mr. LAXALT. You know, I think, zooming out, Congress has been
debating this for many, many years. And in this particular case,
this path was specifically not voted on by Congress. So by President Obamas own words many times over again before he did this,
this is just not a power that our constitutional system contemplated him having.
If he does, as Mr. Chairman, I believe, was heading this direction, if 5 million is okay, then why isnt 6 million, and why isnt

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7 million? And then, you know, if 2 years is okay, then why isnt
3?
So it seems pretty clear that, by his own words, he has stepped
over. And once you add the benefits that are included, there is just
no justification that this fits under prosecutorial discretion.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Let me follow up on that. You and 25 other
States attorneys general, including some Governors, I think, in
some States have brought an action in the District Court in Texas.
Do you agree with what Judge Hanen said in his opinion in that
case, that the Department of Homeland Security cannot enact a
program whereby it not only ignores the dictates of Congress, but
actively acts to thwart them. The DHS Secretary is not just rewriting the laws; he is creating them from scratch
Mr. LAXALT. We believe, as the three claims that have been
made, that the Constitution has been violated under the take
care clause. The Administrative Procedures Act has been, as
Judge Hanen, thwarted. He did not ultimately decide that for the
sake of this preliminary injunction. He reserved that as well as the
constitutional issues for the future. But the States, certainly, still
believe that in all three cases the President has failed.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Let me afford that opportunity for Professor
Blackman and Professor Foley to respond to that as well.
Mr. BLACKMAN. So I think that Professor Legomsky actually
opined that DAPA didnt quite go far enough, and it is an important reason why. In a November 25 blog post on the Balkinzation
blog, Professor Legomsky wrote that, How come DAPA didnt
apply to the parents of the DREAMers? Right, the parents of the
DACA beneficiaries?
I think this raises a very important point. Many of the professors
who signed that letter think that the President didnt go quite far
enough. So even the DOJs perception was more narrow than that
of the professoriate.
But I will stress for the moment that the reason why they didnt
go far enough was because there has to be some sort of relationship
to a parent, a group that Congress has preferred.
DACA was for people without any legal status. DAPA was for
parents of U.S. citizens. One important point is parents of U.S. citizens need to wait 21 years before they can petition for a visa, followed by a 10-year bar. More importantly, parents of lawfully permanent residents can never get visas through their children. So
this is a case where the policies are favoring people who have not
been a class Congress has preferred.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Professor Foley?
Ms. FOLEY. Yes, I would just say it seems patent to me that both
DACA and DAPA are categorical exemptions from law. And with
respect to Professor Legomsky, who says that is not the case, just
look to President Obamas own words when he announced DAPA
publicly in November of 2014. He said in a televised speech before
the Nation, All I am saying is we are not going to deport you. I
think that speaks volumes.
The other thing I would say with regard to DACA is just look at
the numbers. We have 2 years of experience with DACA at this
point, and the latest numbers as of the end of 2014 show that 97
percent of DACA applications have been approved by the Adminis-

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tration. And in a letter from Director Leon Rodriguez to Senator
Grassley not too long ago, he admitted that the reasons why the
3 percent had been rejected is because they are not filling out the
paperwork properly or attaching the right check for the processing
fee.
That, to me, sounds like, if you meet the criteria that has been
unilaterally established by this President, you will get an exemption from deportation. And that is not what the INA declares.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
Conyers, for 5 minutes.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Professor Legomsky, could you respond to the question that has
been posed by the Chairman?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I will get it right this time.
First of all, the figure is 95 percent, not 97 percent. Professor Foleys numbers are quite old, and the current USCIS Web site has
laid this out in detail for several months now. We can speak later,
if you wish, about whether even 95 percent is too high, but it is
actually 95 percent.
But second, I think, with respect, you have confused denials with
rejections. When you were speaking about people losing because
they hadnt signed a form or check or submitted the fee, those are
the rejections. There are more than 40,000 of those. But in addition, there are more than 38,000 denials on the merits. I think it
would come as quite a surprise to those folks to learn that decisions are being rubberstamped.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much.
Let me ask you this. In your opinion, do the executive actions
taken by the Administration, both DACA and DAPA, alleviate the
need for Congress to pass broad immigration reform measures?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Thank you, Congressman. I would say the answer is no.
As the President himself has made clear on many occasions, he
cant do what Congress can do. Only Congress can create immigration status and a path to a green card and eventually citizenship.
All he has done with deferred action is to say that we will give you
a temporary reprieve from removal. We will make you eligible to
apply for a work permit. If it is granted, then you can apply for
a Social Security card.
But that does not approach a green card, which would give you
the right to remain permanently, the right to eventually naturalize,
and the right to bring in any of your family members and so on.
Deferred action doesnt do any of those things.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you. Let me ask you about the Texas litigation. Judge Hanen enjoined a deferred action program because he
believed the applications were not being adjudicated on a case-bycase basis and concluded that this was not happening in the DACA
context.
Do you think that that is a reasonable way to approach the decision in that case?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Thank you. I am glad to have a chance to answer
that question, because it really lies at the basis of the APA denial
and even the constitutional claim.

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Judge Hanen had no support in terms of evidence in the record
that that was true. The starting point is the Secretarys memo. It
explicitly says, repeatedly, you must engage in individualized, caseby-case determinations. It also specifically says that even if the
threshold criteria are met, you still need to exercise discretion.
Furthermore, there is a lot of discretion being exercised just in
determining whether the threshold criteria have been met. For example, to figure out whether somebody is a threat to public safety,
it is not just a question of fact. It is also an opinion as to how much
of a threat a person has to be before we will deny it, and so forth.
So what the critics are really reduced to having to argue, in effect, is that this USCIS workforce is somehow going to systematically disobey the Secretarys clear, explicit instructions to exercise
discretion.
There is not one shred of evidence in the record to support such
an accusation.
Mr. CONYERS. Now, are the Presidents critics correct when they
argue that the President himself does not believe DACA and DAPA
are legal? Has he contradicted himself somewhere along the line?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I dont want my answer to sound disrespectful,
but that has been one of the most irritating objections that I have
been hearing along the way. I know that it makes for good political
theater to keep saying the President has contradicted himself. But
when you actually look at the statements the President has made,
with just one exception, almost all of them have just been grand,
general statements about how I have to obey the law. I cannot
suspend all deportations, which, of course, he has not done, and
so forth.
He recognizes that there are limits to his discretion. And obviously, he believes that DACA and DAPA do not exceed those limits,
as do the vast majority of experts in the field.
The one exception, I have to acknowledge, is the unfortunate
statement made in a spontaneous reaction to a heckler at one gathering when he said, I took an action to change the law. I am sure
that if the President could go back and edit his comments, as so
many of us would love to do when we speak orally, he would realize
he should have said, I took an action to change the policy, because that is a more accurate description of what he did.
But to read global, legal significance into that one offhand comment does seem to me highly misleading.
Mr. CONYERS. Thank you for the balance that you brought to this
discussion.
I yield back my time.
Mr. GOWDY [presiding]. I thank the gentleman from Michigan.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
Forbes.
Mr. FORBES. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Mr. Legomsky, let us go back to your political theater remark,
because there have been two lines on that political theater that our
friends on the other side of the aisle have played over and over
again for audiences around the country.
One of them was kind of found in your testimony, your written
testimony, that this Administration is okay because they have removed more immigrants, illegal immigrants, than any other Ad-

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ministration. In fact, you state in here that they have removed, I
think you said 2 million aliens.
But isnt it really a little deceptive, because arent about half of
those removals claimed by ICE? They actually originate because
they are caught along the border. In fact, one of the articles pointed out said this: The statistics are deceptive because, Obama explained, enhanced border security has led to Border Patrol agents
arresting more people as they cross into the country illegally. Those
people are quickly sent back to their countries, but are counted as
deported illegal immigrants.
Is that a fair statement?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. It is factually correct.
Mr. FORBES. Okay, then let me follow up, because I only have 5
minutes.
We had sitting right where you are sitting now the presidents of
both the ICE agents and the border agents who testified unequivocally that they are the ones interviewing these people and that it
is the Presidents policies that were causing more and more of
these people coming across the border.
Isnt it really true, if you are talking about political theater, that
that is, for the President to say he is sending more people back
that he is stopping at the border, kind of like a fire chief justifying
his right to commit arson because it helped him put out more fires.
It just doesnt make sense to me.
And then when you look at the other line that they have been
using on their political theater, it is this one: Well, somehow or another, if Congress doesnt act, and I determined as President of the
United States that the law is broke and it just doesnt work, then
all of a sudden it shifts the constitutional power over to me.
So Attorney General Laxalt, I would ask you, if you look, and you
know, Congress, as I understand it, has the authority to establish
a uniform rule of naturalization. Is there anything in the Constitution that says if the Congress doesnt want to act because they like
where the policy is, or even because they cant act, that somehow
that shifts the constitutional right over to the President, and that
he can take any action that he otherwise couldnt have taken constitutionally?
Mr. LAXALT. Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
You know, this is the crux of the argument and of the lawsuit.
It, certainly, is one of my biggest concerns. It has been so for many
years, going back to probably when I was a law student at Georgetown.
Our Constitution is eroding, and the executive branch continues
to take more and more power. I cant think of a more clear example
of something that the Constitution clearly says the Congress is
supposed to perform.
And as I said earlier, Congress has debated this. The President
did not get the policy he wanted, and now he has decided to do it.
I would like to read a quote in answering to Professor Legomsky.
I dont mean to gang up on you here, but as to your comment that
the President, his multiple statements didnt exactly say he
couldnt do this, a heckler told him that you have the power to stop
deportations, and Obama replied, Actually, I dont. And that is
why we are here. What you need to know, when Im speaking as

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President of the United States and I come to this community, is
that if, in fact, I could solve all these problems without passing
laws in Congress, then I would do so. But we are a Nation of laws.
That is part of our tradition. And so the easy way out is to try to
yell and pretend like I can do something by violating our laws. And
what I am proposing is the harder path, which is to use our democratic processes to achieve the same goal that you want to achieve.
This President knows that he cant do this. He knows that our
system did not allow him to take these extra steps. There is no
question, as Judge Hanen said in his opinion, there is a wide berth
for prosecutorial discretion. I dont think you are going to get a lot
of argument about that.
But this goes so much further than any prosecutorial discretion
that has ever been exerted. If this was allowed, then Congress role
in this entire field is abdicated. Why would Congress take year
after year to debate these issues if a President is able to take a
scope we have never seen before, and, in addition, add benefits on
top of simply deciding to not deport?
Mr. FORBES. We saw that kind of syntax change when we heard
you can keep your insurance policy, if you want to, as well. But it
makes no sense that we have these arguments.
My time is out, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Virginia.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr.
Nadler.
Mr. NADLER. Thank you. I must begin by saying I am surprised
to hear the attorney general of a great State confusing political
statements with legal statements. All the quotes from the President are interesting in a political debate and a political discussion.
They are not interesting in terms of what his powers actually are
his opinions, frankly, in a political context at all.
What is interesting, what is relevant, as the attorney general
should know, as everyone here should know, are what the laws are,
the precedents are, the court decisions are, not the Presidents or
anybody elses political statement in any context.
Let me ask Professor Legomsky, we heard that the Presidents
exercise of discretion, since it is categorical, is somehow different,
and that he is establishing categories of people to whom he is giving rights that Congress hasnt chosen to give. Essentially, that is
the gravamen of what we are being told, I think.
I think, rather, and please comment on this, that that is untrue.
The President is exercising discretion in granting deferred action to
certain people he can choose. The Supreme Court has said it. Congress has specifically said it. He can choose to do that by group,
by category.
In fact, it would be difficult, I mean, if the President came out
with a list and said the following 2 million people by name are
granted deferred action, we would think that is sort of ridiculous,
although I dont think anybody would question his authority to do
that.
By doing it by category, I dont think he changes that. And
please comment on the fact that he isnt invading Congress prerogative because this deferred action can be revoked at any time, number one. It confers no permanent benefits. It has been stated re-

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peatedly that these people get benefits. They may get a Social Security card, but my understanding is they dont get benefits.
Could you comment on those two points?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Sure. I think everything you just said is absolutely correct.
Two things on the discretion issue. First of all, I do agree that
there really is no law out there that says the President couldnt
grant deferred action on the basis of a class-based discretionary
judgment, if he wanted to do so. We dont have to reach that issue
here, however, because the President didnt even do that. He did
provide specifically, or the Secretary did, for individualized discretion.
I want to add that this is the way agencies normally behave, and
it is a very sensible. You want the agency to provide some generalized guidance to its officers as to how they are to exercise discretionary power, first of all, because you want political accountability
to rest with the leaders; secondly, because you want this information to be transparent, because it is important; and thirdly, the officers on the ground need to know what to do; and fourth, we want
some reasonable degree of consistency. To the extent possible, you
dont want relief to depend on which officer you happen to encounter or which prosecutors desk your file happens to land on.
And in this particular case, the evidence in the record shows
that, in fact, these case-by-case evaluations are being made.
Mr. NADLER. Thank you very much.
Before my next question, I would like to simply comment on
some of what has been said in the dialogue with Mr. Forbes and
some others.
The decision to formally remove border-crossers rather than to
return them was a strategic choice first made by President Bush
in order to disincentivize future illegal entries. A formal removal
creates future bars to admission.
Would you comment on that?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Sure. I think border apprehensions and priorities
make sense both for the reason you just gave, Congressman, and
for another very important, practical reason. It is just very smart
strategy.
It is a lot smarter to stop a person at the border than it is to
divert resources from the border, let people in, then try to chase
them down years later.
Mr. NADLER. Thank you.
Many of the critics of the deferred action program complain that
they go beyond nonenforcement of immigration laws and instead
affirmatively provide a lawful status to people who were previously
in unlawful status. Is that correct?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. No. Their status remains unlawful. They do have
something called lawful presence, which has a very specific meaning in one particular provision. But their status definitely is still
unlawful.
Mr. NADLER. Still unlawful. And finally, critics of the Presidents
action suggest that they are unprecedented and act as though these
issues are entirely novel to the Federal courts.
Hasnt the Supreme Court, in fact, spoken about the extent to
which the Administration has authority to exercise prosecutorial

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discretion in the immigration area specifically and whether granting deferred action is an appropriate form of that discretion?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, they have done that in a couple cases, as
have many of the lower courts. One Supreme Court decision specifically recognized deferred action by name. The facts were different,
but the takeaway was the same. The President has this power.
Mr. NADLER. So, finally, what about what the President has
done, aside from the fact of his name, perhaps his party, and the
politics of immigration, is different from what previous Presidents
have done?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I dont believe it is different. All fact situations
are different in some sense, but they are not meaningfully different. A slightly different form was used than in previous cases,
but the fraction of the undocumented population that the actions
were predicted to effect is roughly the same. And in all other respectsthe one common denominator is, in all of these cases,
Presidents have used their powers to provide temporary reprieves
from removal and temporary permission to work, both of them revocable, to large, specifically defined categories of undocumented immigrants. That is not unprecedented at all.
Mr. NADLER. Thank you very much.
My time has expired.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from New York.
The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from Arizona, Mr.
Franks.
Mr. FRANKS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, it is often said that when human rights and
human laws are in human hands that men lose their freedom.
Professor Foley, I sometimes am entertained by reading from the
Federalist Papers to law professors like yourself. I am not an attorney, so it just gives me a little thrill, you understand?
But in Madison statements in Federalist No. 47, he stated that,
The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced
the very definition of tyranny.
The Framers of the Constitution understood that the accumulation of powers and tyranny were inseparable. They rejected giving
the newly created Chief Executive the legal authority to suspend
or dispense with the enforcement of the laws. That, of course, in
their minds, was the province of Congress.
So my question to you is, do you believe that the Presidents recent actions comport with the Framers conclusions? And is President Obama refusing to adhere to the take care clause in an attempt to evade the will of Congress? And was he acting constitutionally when he did that?
Ms. FOLEY. Congressman Franks, you ask a very salient question. Absolutely, the President here is violating the take care
clause, because his duty under the Constitution, again, is to see to
it that the laws are faithfully executed. So even if the laws are
completely broken, and everybody on both sides of the aisle agree
that the laws are broken, the President does not have the constitutional power to fix it. If it is going to be fixed, it has to be fixed
by Congress and Congress alone.

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I think the Framers would be rolling over in their graves if they
knew what this President was doing.
And let me just address prosecutorial discretion for a moment, if
I may. One of the hypotheticals that gets bandied about by those
who support the Presidents action is to say, Well, a sheriff, for example, can decide that he is only going to pull over speeders who
go 5 mph or more over the speed limit and let everybody else go.
That is what this President is doing. There is no difference.
There is a world of difference between those two things. What
that President is doing in that hypothetical is classical prosecutorial discretion. But that is not what President Obama is doing by
these actions.
To be analogous to what President Obama is doing here, that
sheriff would have to, first of all, publicly pronounce to the world
that he is not going to pull over the speeders despite the fact that
the law says they are speeders. He would have to say, And if I
do pull anybody over, I am only going to give them a fine of a dollar, even though the statute says that it is $100 or more fine. And
then maybe also when I decide I am going to pull them over, I am
going to give them a gift card from Best Buy. I am going to confer
benefits upon them.
That is what this President is doing, and that is clearly not prosecutorial discretion.
Mr. FRANKS. Well, I am not sure I should ask any more questions
at that point.
But, Professor Blackman, do you agree with the comments, basically?
Mr. BLACKMAN. Oh, absolutely. As I noted in my opening remarks, in Federalist 51, Madison wrote, Ambition must be made
to counteract ambition. The President is ambitions; Congress is
ambitious. The President wants something; Congress wants something.
The only way to prevent tyranny, to prevent tyranny from the
fringe, is if both of them butt their heads. In many respects, the
gridlock we have today is a symptom of that. All too often people
say, oh, Washington is gridlocked. Well, people who voted for you
sent you here with certain positions. And it is very much the case
that today people have a very stark opinions on issues.
Now, while it is regrettable that this Congress hasnt seen to immigration reform, that is not a license to expand the Presidents
power.
As Justice Scalia noted last year in the Noel Canning case, gridlock is a feature, not a bug, of our constitutional order. Similarly,
Justice Breyer, when he looked at these issues, said that these are
political problems, not constitutional problems.
So the point I would like to stress is the mere fact that Washington is gridlocked doesnt give the President additional power to
transcend his constitutional authority.
Also, briefly, the Arizona case was mentioned a moment ago. It
definitely said the President has powers over discretion. But in the
very next paragraph, it says, but the case may turn on the equities of an individual case. It says in the opinion, by Justice Kennedy, the equities of an individual case.

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So when you read Arizona v. U.S., read both paragraphs, and
this is won on a case-by-case basis. Thank you.
Mr. FRANKS. Professor Foley, let me just quickly expand on one
other thing you mentioned. The Federal District Court in Texas
made this distinction between the Federal Government simply not
enforcing immigration laws on removal of an individual and taking
the next step of actually providing lucrative benefits to unlawful
aliens. That seems to be an incredibly stark precedent here. Could
you expand on that a little bit?
Ms. FOLEY. Oh, absolutely. The conferral of benefits I think is
the classic example of why you dont want to start going down the
down this road constitutionally with the President, because think
about what he is doing. He is, first of all, publicly announcing to
everyone that even though the law says you shall be deportable,
you are no longer deportable. And now I am going to give you this
remedy called deferred action that Congress has blessed in certain
other instances explicitly, but not blessed for this particular population.
And then once he makes those moves, then he confers all these
benefits upon this population. I mean, that is classic bootstrapping.
And if the President can make the first two moves, then why not
just bootstrap and add the other move, which is the conferral of
benefits.
That is what makes this so dangerous, because if Congress core
constitutional powers include anything, it is not just naturalization
but it is the power of the purse. And these benefits have financial
consequences, not only to the Federal Government, but, of course,
to the States, which is why they have standing to sue him.
Mr. GOODLATTE [presiding]. The time of the gentleman has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from California, Ms.
Lofgren, for 5 minutes.
Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Before asking any questions, I would ask unanimous consent to
enter into the record five statements from the following organizations, explaining the legal authority for the Presidents actions,
from the Constitutional Accountability Center, Asian Americans
Advancing Justice, American Immigration Council,** National
Council of La Raza, and the National Council of Asian Pacific
Americans.
Mr. GOODLATTE. Without objection, they will be made a part of
the record.
[The information referred to follows:]

**Note: The submitted material from the American Immigration Council is not reprinted in
this record but is on file with the Committee, and can also be accessed at: http://
docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU00/20150225/103010/HHRG-114-JU00-20150225-SD003.pdf.

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Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you.
Professor Legomsky, I just want to say publicly that I have been
in Congress for 20 years. I have read a lot of testimony in many
hearings over the years. Your testimony is the singular best, most
concise, logical testimony I have ever read in my 20 years in Congress, and I thank you very much for your service in that way.
I would like to ask you just a few questions. Professor Foley, in
her testimony, indicates that the undocumented immigrants who
are covered by DACA and DAPA are no longer deportable, and
that, according to the Office of Legal Counsel, Illegal immigrants
who fall outside these three priorities are not to be deported at all.
Do you agree with that? And if not, why not?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. No, that statement is not true, and I am not sure
where Professor Foley gets the authority. None is cited.
They are, of course, still deportable. The Secretary has made
clear that deferred action could be revoked at any time. There is
nothing to prevent the Administration from initiating removal proceedings at any time. So I am not sure what the basis would be
for that assumption.
Also, I was neglectful in saying thank you so much for those generous words, which are really too generous.
Ms. LOFGREN. In the Reno case, Justice Scalia had a key holding
that Congress had made immune from judicial review any action
or decision to commence proceedings, adjudicate cases, or execute
removal orders, and went on to say that, [a]t each stage, the Executive has discretion to abandon the endeavor, and at the time
IIRIRA was enacted the INS had been engaging in a regular practice (which has become known as deferred action) of exercising that
discretion for humanitarian reasons or simply for its own convenience.
Professor Foley, in her written testimony, I think tries to diminish the significance of that case, and to distinguish that, says that
the court merely acknowledges that Congress did not want Federal
courts to get tied up in adjudicating discrimination lawsuits.
Do you agree with that? And if not, why not?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think Professor Foley makes a fair point in noting that that case did involve a denial of relief rather than a grant
of relief. But the broad takeaway from the case is evident from the
courts language, where it went out of its way to say that this discretion extends to the decision whether to adjudicate cases, how to
adjudicate cases, and also whether to execute removal orders.
So the facts might be slightly different, but I see no basis in the
opinion for distinguishing it based solely on the facts.
Ms. LOFGREN. There has been a lot of discussion about how
DAPA and DACA grant additional benefits, but it is my understanding that it simply defers action. And pursuant to Section
274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act, which provides that
employment may be authorized either by the Act or by the Attorney General, and 8 CFR 274a.12 provides that an alien who has
been granted deferred action, an Act of administrative convenience
to the Government, may apply for authorization, if there is an economic necessity, which must be proven.

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Is it your position that it is only the statutory basis that is being
exercised following a grant of deferred action? Or does the executive action give some kind of benefit directly?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes. I think it is a little bit of both. I would distinguish two kinds of so-called benefits.
First of all, there is benefit in simply receiving a piece of paper
in which the Government tells you we are deferring action in your
case. People can disagree on the policy of that. There are pros and
cons of telling a person. But I have never seen anybody cite a law
that says it is illegal to tell a person we are not going to proceed
against you.
The other benefits, the ones you have been describing just now,
are, as you point out, specifically authorized by statute and even
more specifically authorized by the regulations. They have been enforced since the early 1980s. Again, they do have the force of law.
And they specifically say that if you received deferred action, you
are eligible to apply for a work permit.
Ms. LOFGREN. Now, we appropriate money every year that allows
for the removal of roughly 7 percent of those who are in the country in an undocumented status. I mean, the affidavits submitted to
the judge in Texas by the head of ICE and the head of the Border
Patrol indicate that having a piece of paper to note the priority
would be helpful to them, because the cost for removal is not at the
stop. It is the detention, the court processes. There are a lot of
costs that go into that. And knowing that this person was not the
priority at the beginning would be helpful to the agency before
costs are incurred.
Do you think that without having these priorities, we are going
to end up having to say that the nanny who is caught on the street
is as high of a priority as a drug dealer or gang member?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think that would be the logical result. It would
be up to each individual police officer to decide, What do I think
my agencys priorities ought to be?
I would add that in addition to the benefit you just described,
mainly helping ICE sift out the low priorities so that they can focus
on the high priorities, in addition, USCIS is collecting a lot of very
useful law enforcement data that can be shared with these other
enforcement agencies. Of course, all that is being paid for by the
requesters themselves, not by the taxpayers.
Ms. LOFGREN. My time is expired, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY [presiding]. Thank the gentlelady from California.
The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Judge
Gohmert.
Mr. GOHMERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses who are here today.
I want to direct the first question to our two law professors. Did
both of you read the 123-page opinion by Judge Hanen?
Ms. FOLEY. Yes.
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes.
Mr. GOHMERT. Okay. I have it here myself.
For full disclosure, Andy Hanen was a classmate in law school.
He was one of the best and brightest. That is why he went with
one of the best firms in the country in Houston, and why President
Bush nominated him. He is a brilliant guy.

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Have you also read the response that has been filed by DOJ,
both of you?
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes.
Ms. FOLEY. Yes.
Mr. GOHMERT. Well, I was noticing at page 10 of the response,
where they are saying the Government would suffer irreparable
harm absent a stay. And in the very next sentence, they say that
the injunction Judge Hanen granted blocks DHS from exercising its
authority conferred by Congress. And it is Congress that is trying
to stop them from exercising the authority, not by a written Executive order, as Judge Hanen makes clear, but, as a good monarch
would do, the President spoke law into existence, and then the Secretary of Homeland Security ran and put it into a memo.
And so I am wondering if a law student, in response as a question, given a question, Here is your exam. Respond to the 123page opinion of Judge Hanen, and they came back and said irreparable harm because the injunction will prevent us from doing the
job that Congress conferred on us, what would be your response as
law professors to that answer?
Ms. FOLEY. I guess my first response would be, again, bootstrapping argument, F, right? Because what is happening here is
that they are saying they are going to suffer irreparable harm because they are prevented from doing what they think they have the
authority to do. But, of course, the $6 million question is, do they
have the authority to do what they are trying to do?
It has to be no. The answer has to be no, because despite Professor Legomskys attempt to identify four criteria that he thinks
provide a meaningful limiting principle, with respect, they dont
provide a meaningful limiting principle. If this President can do
this, future Presidents can unilaterally suspend, for entire categories of people whom they prefer for some political reason, operation of various laws, environmental laws, labor laws, tax laws,
and on and on and on. And that clearly upsets the constitutional
balance. That is not faithful execution of the law.
Mr. BLACKMAN. And if I may add, the Ranking Member is correct. This was not a constitutional decision. The decision was on
the Administrative Procedures Act.
But I think Judge Hanen showed his hand a bit, maybe a Texas
bluff, if I may use the example. And he suggested very clearly that
there would be an abdication.
The Constitution says the President shall take Care the Laws
be faithfully executed. This tracks very closely with the standard
in Heckler v. Chaney, which speaks of a complete abdication of the
laws against an entire class of people.
Judge Hanens opinion explains very clearly why this is the case.
Now, one aspect of Judge Hanens opinion which hasnt been appreciated is that we need notice and comment, right? We need rulemaking. We need to see how this program is working. I think this
hearing justifies why. We dont exactly know how this policy works.
In my research, I found a checklist used by DHS which has no
other box. It is the only way to deny DAPA, by checking the box.
Professor Legomsky found some narrative form, which is slightly
different. He actually admitted in his testimony there are different

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types of forms being used. Do we know which one is being used?
No, we dont.
This would be a perfect opportunity to take the time to show the
American people how this is working. Show us what is happening,
and then we can go to court.
So I think if there is one salutary aspect of Judge Hanens opinion, it is we can learn what this is doing. We are learning this now,
after the memo has been released. Had Texas not filed the lawsuit
when it did, this policy would be in effect, and there would be no
opportunity to challenge it.
Mr. GOHMERT. My time is about to expire, but this is an incredible response in how poorly done it is, in my mind.
The bottom of page 10, it says, For reasons long recognized as
valid, the responsibility for regulating the relationship between the
United States and our alien visitors has been committed to the political branches of the Federal Government. As such, the preliminary injunction necessarily causes an irreparable harm.
They cite that this belongs to Congress and then come back and
say, so if you leave it to Congress, it causes the executive branch
irreparable harm.
For heavens sake, our Justice Department needs better attorneys and especially when you look at page 15, saying that you have
to throw out the injunction because it undermines the departments
efforts to encourage illegal aliens.
Again, Professor, it bootstraps. They were not given that responsibility. That is not their job.
I see my time has expired.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Texas.
The Chair would now recognize the gentlelady from Texas, Ms.
Jackson Lee.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I
think it is appropriate to acknowledge we have Members here and
witnesses here, how much we appreciate you coming and offering
your testimony.
I also think it is important to acknowledge that there are many
issues that this Judiciary Committee, my friends on the other side
of the aisle, Republicans and Democrats work together and collaborate on. I think that should be a message preceding the very vigorous disagreement and unfortunate interpretation that is now
given at this hearing.
Let me associate myself with the words of my Chairman. I would
like to think that this is a hearing regarding President Barack
Obamas executive actions, and I would prefer him not to be called
Obama and to honor the office which he holds.
I also want to acknowledge the Constitution. We went through
this argument, to the various professors, with respect to the powers
of this President. And we all can interpret the final words of Section 2, that deals with shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully
executed. And, therefore, we make the argument that the executive actions are in actuality a reflection of those laws being faithfully executed.
So I dont really want you all to suggest that I am trying to show
my smiling face, but immediately when the order came out from
Texas, Texans and families that would have been severely im-

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pacted came together and said they stand with the President for
the humanitarian, the relief, the authorized relief, the discretionary relief, that allows him not to convey status, but, through
his Attorney General, to be able to have prosecutorial discretion
and to be able to discern the prioritization, Professor, of crooks and
criminals, felons versus the families.
These are family members. This is an example of a parent who
would be, if you will, separated from their child.
And I think I want to make sure and that I have Professor, is
it Legomsky? I am so sorry.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Pretty close. Thank you.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Pardon me?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, Legomsky. Yes.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Legomsky. I want to make sure that I pose
questions to you in my short period of time, because I think you
elevated us to a level of understanding worthy of commentary.
This is a hearing that contributes to political security and not
national security. In this hearing, the backdrop, we are not funding
DHS. That is a horrific tragedy in the midst of the crisis of ISIL,
and we are doing it on untoward and misdirected arguments that
really are not accurate. And I think that is important.
I would say to my good friend from Nevada that we have documentation that Nevada would be severely hampered by the presence of your lawsuit, but more particularly not funding DHS. I may
have the opportunity to present that into evidence. I am sort of
looking through my documents right now.
But there is documentation that grants that you would want and
need would not be generated. And I ask you to review the impact
of not funding DHS. And you would ask me, well, I am not at a
DHS hearing. I just came from one. That is why I stepped away.
But you are engaging in a discussion that tracks why DHS is not
being funded, allegedly because these executive actions are unauthorized. And it is absolutely incorrect.
Let me also show you, if I might, for the people who believe that
this is a frivolous exercise, Professor Legomsky, these are the procedures that the discretionary efforts have asked these individuals
to go through. And I think I count up to 15. I would really like to
know how many of us go through 15 eligibility requirements to do
anything.
Quickly, my question to you is, to go back to this constitutional
question of the executive action, and you premised it on the fact
that the President, the discretionary authority, but in actuality
that the arguments made by my good friends, and I call them that,
are incorrect, that his authority that he is now exercising is limited. It is not a broad parameter. It is not offering citizenship. It
is not offering the Affordable Care Act.
Could you just tell us how we are in the context of not having
a runaway executive, laying the precedent for a runaway executive
in the future?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, thank you.
Mr. GOWDY. Professor, the gentlelady is out of time, but you may
answer the question.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

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Mr. LEGOMSKY. Thank you. Let me say first that, as outlined earlier, I think there are several tangible limits. I know Professor
Foley has just said I dont think any of those four limits really
work, but I am not sure why they dont work. There are real limits
on what a future President can do.
May I just say, also, that I very much appreciate your having
brought to life what these issues are about. This is not an academic
game. We are talking about the lives and the hopes of millions of
people, and I am thankful to you for bringing that out.
Mr. GOWDY. The Chair thanks the gentlelady from Texas and
will now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, the former
United States Attorney, Mr. Marino.
Mr. MARINO. I have a request that, since I am running among
three hearings today, would the Chairman skip me for a moment?
Mr. GOWDY. I would be thrilled to go to the gentleman from
Ohio, Mr. Jordan.
Mr. JORDAN. I thank the Chairman.
Professor Foley, a number of my colleagues on the other side of
the aisle have said Republicans are holding the DHS funding bill
hostage. Now, Professor, we passed legislation last month that
funds the Department of Homeland Security at the levels they
agreed to, levels they wanted.
So in your opinion as a legal scholar, do you think we have held
anything hostage, or have we done just what, constitutionally, we
are supposed to do?
Ms. FOLEY. Congressman Jordan, I think you are doing exactly
what the Constitution contemplates that you should do, what the
Framers anticipated you would do. They anticipated that you
would vigorously defend your constitutional prerogatives.
Mr. JORDAN. Right. But we passed the bill at the levels they
want. We did include language in the legislation that said we think
that what the President did last November was unconstitutional.
We took an oath last month when we were sworn into this Congress to uphold the Constitution. So we put language in there that
said we dont think you can use taxpayer money you shouldnt use.
We are not going to allow you to use American taxpayer dollars to
carry out an action we think is unconstitutional.
Now, do you think believe the Presidents actions last November
were unconstitutional, Professor Foley?
Ms. FOLEY. I absolutely do. And let me just say that it is one
thing to hold an appropriations measure hostage. It is another
thing to hold the Constitution hostage, which is what I think the
President has done.
Mr. JORDAN. Yes. So you think it is unconstitutional. I think it
is unconstitutional. The two gentlemen to your right think it is unconstitutional. And a whole bunch of other folks on the right and
the left of the political spectrum think what the President did was
unconstitutional, right?
Ms. FOLEY. That is correct.
Mr. JORDAN. And last week, we had a Federal judge say what
the President did was unlawful, correct?
Ms. FOLEY. Correct.
Mr. JORDAN. So the fundamental question, the fundamental
question here is, how can Democrats insist on making sure that

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they can hold the DHS bill hostage to maintain the ability to fund
something so many people think is unconstitutional and a Federal
judge has said is unlawful?
Dont you think, Professor Foley, that is the central question?
How can Democrats insist we want a bill that allows us to fund
something everybodynot everybody, but a lot of peoplethink is
unconstitutional and a Federal judge has said is unlawful? How
can they insist on that?
Ms. FOLEY. I dont know. You may want to ask your colleagues
on the other side of the aisle that question. But I would just say,
again, in my opinion, it seems like it is, in fact, the other side of
the political aisle that is holding the Constitution hostage.
Mr. JORDAN. But it is even worse than that, Professor Foley.
They not only want to insist that they be able to fund something
that is unconstitutional and a Federal judge has said is unlawful,
they are not even willing to debate the issue on the floor of the
United States Senate. I mean, it is one thing to make this, well,
we think. Just bring it up for debate. Let us have the full debate
like we are supposed to.
The Committee next-door, we invited Secretary Johnson to come
in and testify at an oversight hearing just next-door, and he refused to come testify. He can go on every TV show over the weekend and talk about this, but he cant come testify and answer these
fundamental questions?
So if anyone is holding it hostage, it seems to me it is the Democrats of the United States Senate. We have a bill over there funding the Department of Homeland Security at the levels the Democrats agreed to, but has language which says you cant do something that is unconstitutional and a Federal judge says is unlawful,
and they refuse to even debate it.
Ms. FOLEY. Well, that is a shame. That is not the way a constitutional republic is supposed to work. It is the process of debate and
deliberation that gives you your value to the American people.
And this is a controversial issue, and it ought to be discussed
and debated. I mean, I am glad we are having the hearing today,
but they shouldnt play politics with the Constitution.
Mr. JORDAN. Yes, and the final thing I would say, Mr. Chairman,
and it has been said many times, but 22 times the President had
said that he couldnt do what he did. Legal scholars on the left and
right have said it is unconstitutional. A Federal judge has ruled it
is unlawful. We have a bill that funds DHS at the levels the Democrats agreed to and puts language in there that is consistent with
the Presidents statements 22 times, consistent with what legal
scholars across the political spectrum say, and consistent with
what the Federal judge just ruled on last Tuesday. It is unbelievable to me that we cannot just pass that legislation and do what
the American people want us to do.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. I thank the gentleman from Ohio. The Chair will
now recognize
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman, could I ask unanimous consent
for introducing two items into the record, please?
Mr. GOWDY. Okay.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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I offered an eligibility chart. I would like unanimous consent to
place that into the record.
Mr. GOWDY. Without objection.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. A chart dealing with the State of Nevada
Homeland Security profile summary of FEMA, I ask unanimous
consent to place that into the record. I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. Without objection.
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Mr. GOWDY. The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from
Tennessee, Mr. Cohen.
Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Professor Legomsky, you said how many different professors or
attorneys specializing in immigration law felt that this was appropriate and constitutional?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. One hundred thirty-five immigration scholars
and professors, not even counting practitioners, signed on to that
letter.
Mr. COHEN. Do you know how many people in that similar class,
although the class is hard to define, said it wasnt constitutional?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I am aware of two and a third person whose
views are somewhat ambiguous on it. There are very, very few in
number.
Mr. COHEN. So 135-to-3. That is even better than Kentucky usually gets in basketball against bad opponents.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes. I dont want to represent that every immigration professor has opined on the issue. But of those who have,
those would be, roughly, the numbers.
Mr. COHEN. And you are a professor of immigration law, is that
correct, for 30 years?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHEN. And you have written a textbook that is in, what,
183 law schools? Is that correct?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. It has been. I am very fortunate. Thanks.
Mr. COHEN. You are, indeed, the most expert person we have.
These other folks are fine people, and they have done a lot of good
work trying to say that Obamacare is unconstitutional, and a lot
of work on health care law, and some work saying that Colorado
shouldnt be able to legalize, even though Justice Brandeis talked
about the laboratories of democracy, they shouldnt be able to do
that.
But you are the expert, and none of these other folks have written textbooks on immigration law, lectured on immigration law. In
fact, their main work has been on property law, constitutional law,
and health law.
You believe this is 100 percent constitutional, do you not?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I do, and can I just say I have a great deal of
respect for both of my colleagues here. They both have done some
wonderful scholarship, and they are both top people in their fields.
Mr. COHEN. Right.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. But, ultimately, whether the take care clause
has been violated depends on immigration law. If you are going to
say the President hasnt taken care to faithfully execute the laws,
you have to specify what laws you think the President has violated.
And one of the things that struck me about this discussion is
that there has been almost no reference to any specific provisions
of the law that they actually say have been violated.
Mr. COHEN. You are familiar with 6 USC 202? There is a clause
there that says the Secretary shall, acting through the Undersecretary for Border and Transportation Security, shall be responsible
for the following, and it gives eight items. Number five is establishing national immigration enforcement policies and priorities.

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Does that not clearly give the Administration the authority to do
what they did?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think it does with one qualification.
I agree with Professor Foley that that its not limitless. The Secretary must exercise that power consistently with any specific statutory constraints. But again, no such constraints have been
credibly identified.
Mr. COHEN. And you were an attorney, also, I think for Immigration? Do you have any ballpark figure on how many dollars it
would cost the taxpayers to hire enough attorneys and go through
the proceedings to try to send those people out of the country?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I am sorry, sir. I dont have a number on that.
There have been studies, though. There is no doubt that the number was cost-prohibitive. It would be impossible to do.
Mr. COHEN. Millions of dollars.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, many, many billions.
Mr. COHEN. Could it
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I am sorry, I want to take that back. I shouldnt
say many billions, because I really dont know the number. But it
is astronomical.
Mr. COHEN. Astronomical is close to many millions. They are in
the same ballpark.
Presidents Reagan and Bush the first did much similar to what
President Obama has done, and you commented that, other than
I think it was maybe Ms. Lee and it might have been Representative Nadler, other than the difference in parties, et cetera, how
would you distinguish the reprisals that this President has gotten
that those didnt? Why is this President different from all other
Presidents?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, I think, first of all, they are very similar
in that, in each case, the President was acting in an area in which
Congress specifically decided not to act.
One of the differences that Professor Foley mentioned, and I
have to say this is a fair argument, though I disagree with it, the
argument was, well, President Bush was exercising a specific statutory power because there was something in the law that authorized
voluntary departure. I dont know that Congress intended for voluntary departure to be exercised on a class-wide basis, but there
is that.
The only point I would make is that, first, deferred action itself
is recognized in many places in the statute. It has been recognized
by many courts. And secondly, the most explicit legal authority,
which does have the force of law, is the regulation that has been
in force for more than 30 years.
Mr. COHEN. Thank you, sir.
I just want to make clear that, Professor Foley, I wasnt meaning
anything about the U.T.-Kentucky game. They played a great first
half. I was pulling for U.T. also, but Kentucky is just too much.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. GOWDY. I thank the gentleman from Tennessee.
The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Judge
Poe.
Mr. POE. I am over here on the far right. Let me ask you some
questions. Thank you all for being here.

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Professor Blackman, thank you also for being here. South Texas,
I couldnt get into South Texas, but I am glad you are here.
Mr. BLACKMAN. You can visit my classroom anytime, sir.
Mr. POE. Tell Professor Treece hello. He and I are contemporaries. It is quite a tribute to him or credit to him the school has
him.
Let us assume these hypotheticals. Being from law schools, law
professors love hypotheticals, so let us talk hypotheticals.
The next President, whoever it is, decides, I am going to postpone the individual mandate in Obamacare indefinitely. So be it.
Issue a memo out to the fruited plain.
The next President decides, I am going to postpone the implementation of EPA regulations indefinitely throughout fruited
plain. Sends out a memo.
I have decided that in all fairness, some people just should not
have to pay income tax. So I am going to tell the IRS not to enforce
the IRS Code to a certain, specific group of people that I think just
shouldnt have to pay income tax. Memo out to the fruited plain.
And we could go on indefinitely, indefinitely.
If everything stands like it is with the courts, the President, executive issues, orders, is this a possibility that these types of executive memos from future executives may just happen?
Mr. BLACKMAN. With respect, we are living in that era. President
Obama has delayed the individual mandate once for an entire class
of people based on a hardship. What was the hardship?
Obamacare. It was too expensive.
President Obama has delayed the employer mandate twice, until
2016. What was the hardship? Obamacare. It was too difficult.
So, with respect, we are living in that era. And I think it is a
very, very scary time. And take your example, and imagine future
Presidents doing that as well. You know what? We dont have
enough agents to enforce the Internal Revenue Code and the capital gains tax, so we are not going to enforce it. If you paid to us,
we will refund it. And we will prospectively tell people. We can tell
people the corporate income tax is way too high, so for any corporation who has at least so many employees, we are not going to enforce it. It is just too much work.
I think this sets a very dangerous precedent. Now one point I
will add is faithfulness. The Constitution says you shall faithfully
execute the law. I am okay with the President making a good-faith
belief that his action is consistent with the statute. It is his discretion. I am okay with that.
But I think what the facts demonstrate here is one of bad faith.
The reason why the Presidents statement about lacking power is
relevant is not for political theater. It is to say, he said this. He
was asked, can you defer the deportation of the mother of a U.S.
citizen? He said no. The Justice Department said no, this cant happen.
Then suddenly, you lose in Congress. They find this authority. I
think it is a prima facia case for bad faith.
Now, we are in uncharted waters. If you open a constitutional
casebook, where I do perhaps have some expertise, you will find
that there is not much written on the take care cause. And that
is why constitutional lawyers are actually relevant to the discus-

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sion why the separation of powers trumps immigration law when
it goes too far.
It was mentioned 6 USC 202 and 8 USC 1103, these provisions
no doubt grant discretion. But they do not grant the amount of discretion that the Justice Department claims now. It is unconstitutional, under the nondelegation doctrine.
And I should add that the OLC memo does not put that much
weight on the supervision, but DOJ did. After they basically lost
in oral arguments, they shifted their position to these two provisions and put a lot more weight on it.
So I will stress that there is discretion, but it is within what happens in the take care clause, which, unfortunately, now we have
to litigate. And it will be at the Fifth Circuit any minute and invariably at the Supreme Court.
Mr. POE. I want to reclaim my time, Professor. I only asked you
the time. I didnt ask you to tell me how to make a watch. I mean
that kindly, only because we have so little time, understand.
My question was, those hypotheticals that I gave you, are those
real possibilities, if everything stands the way it is, that the next
future executive, in good faith, faithfully executing the law, the IRS
Code, says it is just not fair that everybody has to pay this income
tax of 39 percent or whatever it is? It is waived for those people.
Or the EPA, it is too big of a burden out there on Americans to
have to comply with the EPA regs. We will give them a pass. It
is just not fair.
That was my question, and the answer is, it is a possibility.
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes. No, the answer is yes. If this precedent
stands, that Presidents can make these good-faith arguments, then
the game is over. Then you as a body of Congress have no power,
and all you have left is your power of the purse.
Mr. POE. One more question. One more question, if that is permitted by the Chair.
What if the same scenario exists, and you have a State Governor
who decides that, as the executive of the State, that the Constitution empowers him or her to waive Federal law or Federal regulations, that it is his discretion or her discretion of the Governor, executive order, send out a memo to the State of whatever. I didnt
say Texas, but it could be. Just ignore this Federal rule by a regulatory agency under the idea that the executive, whoever it is in
the State, has the same authority.
Mr. BLACKMAN. Well, that would violate the supremacy clause in
both cases. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The
President is bound by it, and the States are bound by it, and neither can ignore it.
Mr. POE. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. LOFGREN. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. POE. I am out of time. I yield back to the Chair.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank you. Thank you, Judge Poe.
The Chair would now recognize the gentlelady from California,
Ms. Chu.
Ms. CHU. Mr. Chair, I would like to enter into the record, the
Center for American Progress report that says it would cost $50
billion to deport the estimated 5 million people who would benefit
under DACA and DAPA.

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Mr. GOWDY. Without objection.
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Ms. CHU. Professor Legomsky, critics argue that even though
DAPA and DACA have individualized criteria that officers have to
use on a case-by-case basis, that the high rate of approval for these
programs shows that there is some sort of blanket approval of
these cases.
Professor, you served as chief counsel of the USCIS in the Department of Homeland Security for several years, including during
the time when DACA started, so I am curious to hear what you
learned about the adjudication process of these cases. I understand
that USCIS reports a 95 percent approval for DACA applications.
Can you explain why this there is this high approval rate, and
whether it is appropriate or not appropriate to conclude that officers are not making individualized assessments?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Thank you. At first blush, I agree that 95 percent sounds high, but it is not when you think about who is actually applying for DACA and DAPA.
If you are an undocumented immigrant, and if in addition you
have some other negative conduct in your background, there are at
least two things you are very unlikely to do. First of all, you are
not going to initiate contact with the Government and say, This
is my name. This is where I live. I am undocumented, and I also
have this other negative thing in my background. And here are my
fingerprints, so that the FBI can do a background check on me.
You are not likely to do that.
Second, unless you are independently wealthy, and not many of
these folks are, you are not going to send the Government a check
for $465 for something you are very unlikely to receive.
So for both reasons, this tends to be a very self-selecting population, overwhelmingly people with rock solid cases. And therefore,
the high approval rate in no way is evidence that these decisions
are being rubberstamped.
And may I just add quickly also that the notion that they are
being rubberstamped would come as quite a surprise to the 38,000
people who have received denial notices.
Ms. CHU. Thank you for that. Professor, Congress mandates
through the Secretary of Homeland Security the national immigration enforcement policies and priorities. Thus, in doing so, the Secretary has directed the agency to prioritize certain categories of
people over other categories.
In the Texas case, Judge Hanen seems to accept that prosecutorial discretion is appropriate in this context. However, he seems
to oppose the idea of granting deferred action and notifying the individuals that they are not an enforcement priority.
Isnt deferred action in and of itself a form of exercising prosecutorial discretion? How would you counter Judge Hanens reasoning?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, I agree with you. I think you are absolutely
right. Deferred action is simply an exercise of prosecutorial discretion. The only thing that distinguishes it from some exercises is
that the Government is giving the person a piece of paper saying
this is what we have decided to do.
I think, with respect, that Judge Hanen has confused the question of whether deferred action is legal with the question of whether these other benefits are legal once deferred action has been
granted. If he objects to those other benefits, for example, the ones

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that are codified in the statute or that are in the regulations, then
properly what he should be doing is advocating for a change in
those laws. But the President did not touch any of those. It is just
deferred action.
Ms. CHU. Professor, in Judge Hanens opinion, he argued that
DHS acted unlawfully because he did not allow the public to comment about the new DAPA program in accordance with the Administrative Procedures Act. Can you walk us through whether DHS
was required to follow the Administrative Procedures Act before
implementing the DAPA program?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, thank you. The APA notice and comment requirements, by statute, do not apply to general agency statements
of policy, which the Supreme Court has expressly interpreted to include any guidance that the agency wants to give about how it
plans to exercise one of its discretionary powers, which it has done
here.
So what this really turned on in this case was whether you believe DHS when they say they are exercising real discretion. Judge
Hanen concludes that they were not. But the only evidence he cited
was an unsupported statement by one USCIS agent, Kenneth
Palinkas, whose support was simply, they are being decided by
service centers, which by the way, is where the vast majority of
USCIS adjudications are being decided. And he said, therefore,
they must be getting rubberstamped. That simply doesnt follow.
Adjudicators at the service centers, and I know this from personal experience, take great care to go over the documentation very
carefully. There are also FBI background checks and so on. And if
there is any case in which they think there would be some use in
conducting a personal interview, then they can and will refer the
person to an interview at a field office.
So those are very careful adjudications. I dont know where he
gets the idea that they are being rubberstamped.
Ms. CHU. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentlelady from California.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania,
the former U.S. Attorney, Mr. Marino.
Mr. MARINO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, panel. I am sorry that I wasnt here a great deal.
But as I said, I have several hearings going on at the same time.
Professor Legomsky, am I pronouncing your name correctly?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes.
Mr. MARINO. As a prosecutor, I had the authority at the State
and Federal level to use prosecutorial discretion, but only on a
case-by-case basis, on an individual basis, not for a class. I couldnt
simply say, if I wanted to, that those individuals driving under the
influence, even though they are above the .08, those that are below
.1, I am not going to prosecute. Would you agree with that?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes.
Mr. MARINO. Okay. The Presidents deferred action, as far as I
see it from a legal perspective, is simply saying that I am not going
to prosecute now, but I may down the road and I may not. So
wouldnt you agree with me that those who are here that the President wants to defer deportation are violating the law?

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Mr. LEGOMSKY. Congressman, I think now I answered your first
question too quickly. I should have said, Yes, but. As long as discretion is left to the individual officer to decide whether to initiate
prosecution in the case that you described, then it does seem to be
perfectly legal. I was understanding your hypothetical to mean
there was no discretion. But in this case, there is. The Secretary
has repeatedly and explicitly told the officers that even if the
threshold criteria are met, they are still to exercise discretion. And
in fact, at the courts request
Mr. MARINO. Sir, with all due respect, I am not hearing that
from the officers. When I am hearing from the officers is a direct
order: Do not detain these individuals. Let them go.
And again, I am going to go back to the issue. On an individual
basis, I say yes, there is discretion. But the people that are here
are here illegally or else the President would not have to issue an
order saying we are going to defer this. So that is a class of people,
that is millions of people. You are an expert in these areas. From
a prosecutors point of view, and even from some defense attorneys
point of view that I have spoken with, it goes beyond what was intended concerning prosecutorial discretion.
Another issue that I want to bring up with you concerning the
way that we operate here. Now I am sure that you know, but the
media has not been pursuing it, that the House of Representatives
has passed a Homeland Security bill giving the President $1.6 billion more than he asked for, $400 million more this year than last
year.
So the only issue I hear from the Administration is that we want
to shut down Homeland Security. I would beg to differ with you,
and I think common sense dictates that if you are giving more
money than the President asked for that would fund Homeland Security, it isnt the fact of shutting the Government down. It is the
fact that the President has made it clear that he wants the deferred action and Congress has said no, we are not allowing you
funds to do that. What say you?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, on the first point, let me just observe that
USCIS has many thousands and thousands of adjudicators, and if
one of them told you that we are not allowed to use any judgment
in deciding whom to prosecute, that person is directly violating the
Secretary
Mr. MARINO. I can clear that up. It hasnt been one of them. It
has been many. And it has been multistate. And I have a little concern about the information I am getting from the Administration
concerning what I am getting from the frontline people.
Attorney General, do you want to weigh in on this prosecutorial
discretion?
Mr. LAXALT. Thank you, Congressman. You know, I think it is
great to go back directly to this point, because OLA has spoken
about this. They know that you need a case-by-case basis. And they
are basically making a mockery of all this by using these magic
words.
I dont mean to attack the professor here, since he was formerly
in this job. But they are stating that they are doing this, but there
is just no way with this kind of volume they are, with the percentages that have been approved.

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While the professor discusses self-selection, as it said in Judge
Hanens opinion, of the 5 percent who are not making it through,
they are not making it through because of procedural errors. There
are still not individual case-by-case bases. You guys have all the
authority in the world. That would be the next question, is to pull
up a bunch of line agents and find out whether or not it is true
that individual discretion is happening. I find it just impossible to
believe, but just guessing.
Mr. MARINO. I see that my time has expired. I yield back. Thank
you, Chairman, for fitting me in here.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Pennsylvania. The Chair
will now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Deutch.
Mr. DEUTCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, in less than 3 days, the Department of Homeland
Security is going to run out of funding. At that time, critical security operations are going to be scaled back and others will be shut
down. Cyberattacks in North Korea wont shut down. The recruitment of more terrorists by ISIS wont shut down. And gang violence below our southern border wont shut down.
This Congress is on the verge of forcing over 100,000 DHS employees to work without pay and put another 30,000 employees on
furlough. They are TSA agents and port inspectors, disaster relief
staff and intelligence experts, Coast Guard members and Border
Patrol officers.
My question is, is this how the new Republican Congress treats
people who report to work every day to protect our country? These
Americans have mortgages to pay. They have children to support.
They have homes to keep warm, car tanks to fill up, and local businesses to support.
Homeland Security funding has nearly dried up for one simple
reason. Some Members of the majority are more concerned with
pleasing the anti-immigrant fringe than paying the men and
women who go to work every day protecting the security of our Nation.
They are holding DHS funds hostage. Their demand? That we
mandate the deportation of thousands of students and young people who arrived here illegally as small children. That we deport immigrants who have small children who never chose to break the
law from the only home that they have ever known.
Now, with little time left until our Homeland Security funding
expires, this Committee is using precious time on a hearing on
whether the Presidents immigration Executive orders are constitutional. Since the founding of our Nation, questions involving the
constitutionality of executive actions have been heard and resolved
by the judicial branch. And questions of whether the Presidents
Executive orders on immigration are constitutional are being heard
in courts as we speak.
I happen to believe that the Presidents Executive orders on immigration are constitutional, but I also understand that some of my
colleagues disagree. I respect that.
Still, the fact remains that defunding DHS will not advance my
Republican colleagues stated goal of nullifying these Executive orders. Defunding DHS will not ramp up deportation. On the contrary, forcing border agents and immigration court officials to work

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without pay or to go on furlough most likely will slow down deportation.
Now my Republican colleagues want a border security enforcement-only approach to immigration policy. Well, guess what? That
is the policy that has been in place for years, and it is not working,
even with the record-breaking deportation numbers of this Administration.
It is logistically and financially impossible to locate, prosecute,
and deport 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United
States.
Like other law enforcement agencies, Immigration and Customs
Enforcement must work with the budget that it is handed. That
means exercising discretion, choosing which deportation should
proceed and which should be put on hold, or, as the President calls
it, deferred.
Do we deport a member of a gang or a college student who arrived here illegally when she was 3? Do we deport the mother of
an American child or do we try to keep families together? These
are the questions that Republicans in Congress have refused to answer year after year after year with a comprehensive immigration
reform bill. These are the questions that my Republican colleagues
left President Obama to answer with his November 20 Executive
orders on immigration.
The Presidents Executive orders dont change the law. They are
temporary. They simply ensure undocumented immigrants living,
working, and raising families in our communities that they will not
be deported before someone with a felony or a serious misdemeanor.
We should be working day and night to keep the Department of
Homeland Security funded and fully operational instead of holding
hearings on questions that the courts are in the process of answering. The safety of the public and the well-being of our communities
must be the priority of immigration enforcement officials, and I
humbly suggest that it should also be the priority of this Congress.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Florida.
The Chair will now recognize himself.
General Laxalt, I want to make one observation before Professor
Legomsky and I have a conversation about prosecutorial discretion.
My colleague from New York, Mr. Nadler, suggested that you were
naive for thinking that the 22 separate times the President said he
lacked the power to do what he did, you and I should have realized
that that was a political comment and not a legal comment. So
what I would ask you to please consider is requiring a disclaimer
to go beneath every comment made by an elected official, so we can
know going forward whether he or she really means it or whether
it is just for political expediency, because I mistakenly thought the
chief law enforcement officer for the entire country would mean
what he said when he was making a legal observation. And it was
just news to me from Mr. Nadler that all of that was just political
grandstanding.
So if you can work around the First Amendment limitations and
require disclaimers, so we really know whether a candidate or an
officer-holder means what he or she is saying, it would be helpful

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to me. And I would not feel as naive and perhaps you wouldnt either for relying on what the President said.
Now, Professor, what are the limits of the doctrine of prosecutorial discretion?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, the main limits are the ones that I laid out
in more detail in the written statement, but to summarize them
briefly, one, the President cannot refuse to substantially spend the
resources Congress has provided, because
Mr. GOWDY. So if we fully funded everything he wanted with respect to DHS, he could not suspend any deportations?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think that is an unanswered question.
Mr. GOWDY. Well, that is what you just said.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. No, I said that was one limit.
Mr. GOWDY. But I just removed that limit. So if we were to fully
fund that, he would lack the discretion to not enforce that law, correct?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, I suppose that is theoretically possible. It
just has never been decided by a court, because it would be rare
to find a law enforcement agency
Mr. GOWDY. Well, what I am trying to get at, Professor, is, if
your district attorney decided that he or she was not going to enforce or prosecute any heroin cases because he or she just thought
the war on drugs was a lost cause, other than elections, what remedy would the legislative branch have if they disagreed strenuously
with that executive branch employees wholesale refusal to enforce
the law? What remedy exists for us?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. The legislature could very specifically supersede
the decision. There is nothing in the statute that specifically supersedes the Presidents priorities, but the legislature could
Mr. GOWDY. So you mean the legislative branch could put in that
statute, the word shall. You shall prosecute.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. That would not nearly be enough. We all know
that in the
Mr. GOWDY. Well, what should we put in our DHS funding to let
the President know? Help us write that bill, Professor.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I dont know that I could draft it off the top of
my head.
Mr. GOWDY. Well, take a crack at it.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Okay, well, Congress could do something similar
to what it did when it mandated very specific priorities. There is
language that specifically mandates a priority on national security.
There is language that
Mr. GOWDY. But why does the legislative branch have to pick priorities? Why cant we just say we want the law enforced?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I was offering one option as to how a statute
could be drafted.
Mr. GOWDY. Well, you would agree with me that the ultimate
remedy is the ballot box, right? If the D.A. is not enforcing the law,
his or her voters can vote them out, right?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, yes and no. There are certain instances in
which plaintiffs have been found to have standing to challenge
prosecutorial discretion. But I dont see this as being one of them.

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Mr. GOWDY. Do you think the consequences of elections might
have been why the President waited until after the midterms to
issue his Executive order as opposed to before?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes and no. I am not sure if it was the outcome
of the election so much as the desire to avoid the kind of political
confusion that would result.
Mr. GOWDY. Well, it is not political confusion, Professor, with all
due respect. This is legal confusion, because I am trying to understand what the limits of prosecutorial discretion are.
There are at least three different categories of law. There are
certain laws that say you cant do something, like possess child pornography. There are certain laws that require you to do something,
like register for selective service. And then there are laws that
Congress passes, which require the executive branch to do things,
for instance, turn in a budget by certain date.
Is your testimony that the executive has the power to use prosecutorial discretion in all three categories of law?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. It would depend on the facts, and it would depend on the specifics that
Mr. GOWDY. Well, give me a fact pattern where a President can
refuse to do something that Congress tells him or her to do by a
certain date? That is not prosecutorial discretion, with all due respect, Professor. That is anarchy.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I agree with you, Congressman, that Congress,
if specific enough, could foreclose a particular type of exercise of
prosecutorial discretion. My only point is that they have not done
so in this
Mr. GOWDY. Well, let me ask you this, because I am out of time.
Can the President suspend all deportations? And if not, why not?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I believe not, because that would contravene both
the Congress and passing the Immigration and Nationality Act
generally, but
Mr. GOWDY. Well, how far can he go? Out of the 11 million, if
4 million is okay, can he go up to 8 million?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. My answer to that question is the same as the
one I give a little bit earlier. It is impossible to answer without the
empirical knowledge of whether that would still leave him with the
ability to substantially spend the resources Congress has provided.
Mr. GOWDY. What I would love, if you can, and again, I am out
of time, I want you, and maybe it is a suggestion for your next law
review article, I want to know if Congress fully fundsDHS, does
the President then lack the discretion citing the apportionment of
resources to exercise discretion.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. The question has simply never been answered.
Mr. GOWDY. Well, I would love for you to take a crack at it. In
your next law review article, I would love for you to take a crack
at it, if you would be willing to do so.
The Chair would now recognize his friend from New York, Mr.
Jeffries.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me also thank the
Ranking Member of the full Committee for his presence here.
I want to start with the Attorney General and perhaps further
explore this question of prosecutorial discretion in the context of
the Presidents Executive order. So there are approximately, I be-

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lieve, 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country, correct?
Mr. LAXALT. Correct.
Mr. JEFFRIES. And presumably one of the options that some in
this Congress would like to see, who disagree with the Presidents
Executive order, is the deportation of all 11 million undocumented
immigrants, correct? That is amongst the range of ideas within this
Congress, this Committee. There are some presumably who would
like to deport all 11 million. Is that fair to say?
Mr. LAXALT. I am not here to represent any of the Members
views on this issue, Mr. Congressman.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Okay. Do you think that is a reasonable solution?
Mr. LAXALT. You know, we have entered this lawsuit as 26 attorneys general because we believe there are serious pressing constitutional issues at stake. And as I have stated in as many ways
as I can, for us, this is not about politics and it is not the job of
the attorney general to wade into this political realm, and it is not
something I plan on doing.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Thanks a lot.
Now, Congress has never allocated the resources necessary to deport all 11 million undocumented immigrants. That is an accepted
fact. Nobody from the far left to the far right argues otherwise. So
if the President and the Department of Homeland Security lack the
ability, because we, Congress, have not given him the resources to
deport all 11 million undocumented immigrants, doesnt the Department of Homeland Security have the discretion to prioritize the
deportation of some undocumented immigrants over the deportation of others?
Mr. LAXALT. Mr. Congressman, the 26 States that have joined
this case, along with, at least preliminarily, the Federal district
judge in Texas, believe that there are limits in this area, and we
have kind of gone over them ad nauseam, but that the President
has overstepped his constitutional authority to take care and execute, and, as we just discussed, failed to do case-by-case in almost
any way you analyzein case-by-case analysis.
Mr. JEFFRIES. No, I appreciate that. I want to move on, but let
me just make the point that I think should be self-evident. If Congress has not given the President the resources to deport all 11
million undocumented immigrants, then it seems that the Department of Homeland Security should have the ability to prioritize the
deportation of felons over the deportation of families. That is a reasonable approach, since Congress has not seen fit to give the Department of Homeland Security the ability to simply deport everybody who is in this country on an undocumented basis.
Now in Nevada, the Office of Attorney General is not self-funded,
correct?
Mr. LAXALT. I dont understand the question.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Your funding is provided by the State Legislature,
true?
Mr. LAXALT. Yes, the general fund, yes.
Mr. JEFFRIES. So you joined this lawsuit and you made the decision to join this lawsuit, I believe on January 26. And you announced that decision consistent with your views as it relates to

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the Nevada Constitution. You didnt consult with the Governor
when you made that decision, correct?
Mr. LAXALT. Mr. Congressman, I am an independently elected attorney general, and it is my job to
Mr. JEFFRIES. I am not arguing that you should have. I just want
to establish the fact that you didnt. Correct?
Mr. LAXALT. You know, I
Mr. JEFFRIES. It is a matter of public record. I just want to make
sure that I am clear and you are clear and the Committee is clear.
You didnt consult with the Governor.
Mr. LAXALT. Well, as is in the record, our offices certainly communicated about this issue.
Mr. JEFFRIES. I appreciate that. If I could enter into the record
a Wall Street Journal opinion piece, Nevadas right choice on immigration, in support of your position and ask unanimous consent
to do so. It is a February 2 article.
Mr. GOWDY. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]

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Mr. JEFFRIES. It says a very public dispute broke out last week
when Nevada Attorney General Adam Laxalt went against Governor Brian Sandovals wishes and joined a lawsuit filed by 25
other States. The two of you are both Republicans who agree that
the current immigration system is broken and that comprehensive
reform is necessary, but Mr. Sandoval opposes litigation and has
suggested that new immigration reform legislation is the best way
to proceed.
That is his perspective. I would assume that even though the two
of you disagree, even though this Republican Governor believed
that you took unilateral action, would it be reasonable based on his
disagreement with your actions to defund the Office of the Nevada
Attorney General?
Mr. LAXALT. Mr. Congressman, there is no way something like
that would happen. Obviously, the Attorney General Office is the
top law enforcement for the entire State. We have many, many
statutory duties to protect our citizens from law enforcement, to
consumer fraud. And a lot of this is much ado about nothing. The
Governor and I work together on many, many issues every day.
And I am the legal adviser to all of our agencies as well as all of
our boards and commissions. So, you know, this was an unfortunate one issue, but as I said, there is no issue with the Governor
and me.
Mr. JEFFRIES. Thank you. My time has expired, but I hope you
would also agree, based on that same logic, that even though there
is a disagreement between the President, Democrats in Congress,
and congressional Republicans, it would be unreasonable, to use
your phrase, to defund such an important agency, the Department
of Homeland Security, simply because of a political dispute.
I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. I thank my friend from New York.
Before I go to the gentleman from Idaho, Mr. Laxalt, I would say,
I think have any independent attorney general is a great idea,
something we ought to try on the national level at some point.
With that, Mr. Labrador?
Mr. LABRADOR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to point
out that my good friend Mr. Jeffries is comparing apples and oranges. There is nobody in Congress who is trying to defund Homeland Security except for the Democrats. We actually funded fully
the Department of Homeland Security, except for the Presidents illegal and unconstitutional actions. It seems like my friends on the
other side are willing to put 5 million illegals ahead of the safety
and security of the United States.
I just want to make that clear, because we passed a bill that
fully fundsin fact, as was previously stated, not only fully funds
but funds above the levels that the President asked for. We completely funded the Department of Homeland Security. The only
people that are stopping this funding are Democrats in the Senate
that are not even willing to listen to an argument why we should
have this bill passed through Congress.
So there is nobody here on my side who is trying to defund this.
Mr. Legomsky, I listened to your testimony. I have been sitting
here the whole time. I understand you are a professor of law, and
you also were the chief counsel for USCIS. Is that correct?

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Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes.
Mr. LABRADOR. Did you ever practice immigration law? Did you
ever do private practice?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. No, I did not.
Mr. LABRADOR. Okay, I did 14 years of private practice in immigration law, and I defended and represented a lot of people who
were in legal jeopardy in the immigration system.
What do you think one of the attorneys working for ICE or one
of the attorneys working at the time for INS would have said if I
would have gone up to them and said, Mr. Attorney or Mrs. Attorney, could you please give me prosecutorial discretion because you
guys dont have enough funds to enforce the law in the United
States? What do you think the answer would have been to my little
office in Idaho?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. If the only reason were that they dont have
enough funds, the answer probably would have been no. But, of
course, the real question is, we dont have enough funds and here
is why I think my client should be a low priority. In that case, I
hope a reasonable ICE agent would take that
Mr. LABRADOR. I asked that many times, and you know what the
answer was every single time? No. Because they never did that, because you are confusing what is really happening here. And I have
been listening to you very clearly.
You said, your own words were that the there is direct criteria,
so there is a threshold of criteria. Can you name one case that has
been put in deportation or removal proceedings, just one case that
has been put in deportation or removal proceedings, that has met
the threshold of criteria?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I have to answer in two parts, I am afraid.
Mr. LABRADOR. Just one case.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I understand. But I have to explain.
Judge Hanen in his order specifically ordered the Government to
give some examples of cases in which people were found to have
met the threshold criteria but nonetheless were denied
Mr. LABRADOR. Have they provided that information?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes. That is what I was leading up to.
Not only did they provide the information but Mr. Neufeld in his
sworn affidavit offered several specific examples of such cases.
Nonetheless, Judge Hanen inexplicably said the Government has
not provided information that the cases
Mr. LABRADOR. Professor Blackman, could you address that question?
Mr. BLACKMAN. So in paragraph 24 of the Neufeld declaration,
the only examples cited were gang membership, gang affiliation, or
fraud. The only examples the Department of Justice could put forth
in defending this policy was gang membership or fraud. Those are
criteria in zone one. Gang membership would make you a high priority for national security risk because of your gang membership.
And fraud, I dont think there is much discretion saying someone
committed fraud or was dishonest with the tribunal.
The only example
Mr. LABRADOR. So are you saying fraud in the application or previous fraud?

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Mr. BLACKMAN. Previous fraud for lying on the application, lying
on a previous application, right? These are the only examples the
Neufeld declaration brought forth. If these were the best examples
they have, then there isnt much discretion.
Mr. LABRADOR. And those are criteria, especially the fraud criteria, that would make you ineligible for any form of relief under
immigration law.
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes. And that has been the Secretarys policy.
That has nothing to do with case-by-case discretion. So if that is
the best they can gin up, there is not much there. And that was
actually in paragraph 24 of the Neufeld declaration.
Mr. LABRADOR. Okay, let us talk now, you say it is not illegal to
tell a person we are not going to proceed against you, right? That
isnt putting you in differed action. And I think you have been misleading us a little bit. I dont think you are doing it on purpose,
because I have really enjoyed your testimony. But there is a difference between not deporting somebody, not putting somebody in
removal proceedings, and putting them in deferred action, is there
not?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes, but the difference is that in the latter case,
you are affirmatively telling them that.
Mr. LABRADOR. No, but the reason you are doing it is because
you want to grant them benefits. That is the main difference.
I had cases where they were put into deferred adjudication, and
it is because there was some criteria that they met. They were either helping the prosecutor, they were helping the local police.
There was some criteria that they needed to stay in the United
States so they could be granted affirmative benefits. That is why
we have deferred adjudication.
Sometimes immigration chooses not to deport somebody, but the
reason you put somebody in differed action is to grant them a specific benefit.
That is what this Administration is doing. This Administration
is deciding not just that we are not going to deport people. They
are saying we want to put them in a criteria that, under the law,
they are going to receive specific benefits, and they are doing that.
So could this President say tomorrow that I want every person
who is here in the United States illegally from Mexico, I want to
put them in deferred action? Could he say that?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. My gut instinct is to say that that would be very
difficult because it would turn on the empirical question of whether, after doing so, you are still able to substantially spend the resources Congress intended.
Mr. LABRADOR. You know, you keep saying that. They can always
suspend the money. That is the most ridiculous statement I have
heard. They will always spend the money. The question is, does he
have the discretion to just pick one category of people and say that
I am not going to deport you. That has never been done in immigration. It was always done on a case-by-case basis. And at this
point, this President has decided not to do it on a case-by-case
basis but to categorize groups of people and put them into a category that grants them benefits. And that is illegal.
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman is out of time. The professor may answer, if he would like to.

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Mr. LEGOMSKY. Sure. Well, as you know, Congressman, especially from representing people in the past, there are lots of reasons
people have been granted deferred action, including a range of humanitarian reasons.
But as to your last example, where he granted only to nationals
of Mexico, I would just mention that there are lots and lots of cases
in which Presidents have granted functionally equivalent discretionary relief to people based solely on their country of origin. So
that would present a close question.
Mr. LABRADOR. Based on TPS, and something that the law already granted the President the authority to do, so let us not make
that
Mr. LEGOMSKY. It could be defund enforced departure or some
other remedy.
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman is out of time. I thank the gentleman
from Idaho.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from Illinois, and
apologize for overlooking him last time. It was inadvertent.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I know that, Mr. Chairman. It is good to be with
you all this afternoon.
Mr. Chairman, could I have my staff assistant hand out a memorandum that was November 4 to all of our witnesses, so they have
a copy?
Mr. GOWDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thanks.
Ms. LOFGREN. While that is being done, can I ask unanimous
consent to put in the record the declarations of Donald Neufeld; the
ICE Director, Sarah Saldana; and the CBP Commissioner, Mr.
Kerlikowske?***
Mr. GOWDY. Without objection.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I think we should use this document because it is a
letter written in 1999 signed by Henry Hyde and Lamar Smith and
Bill McCollum and a series of other outstanding Republican Chairmen of this Committee, in which they write to Janet Reno, saying
you guys have to promulgate some discretion here. You havent
done it enough. And you have the ability and the right in law to
do exactly that, and you havent done it.
So I just want to state for the record that not our party, but the
majority party, has stated and stipulated through this memorandum that they believe in discretion, and that the Administration should use discretion. And in the memorandum, just for the
public, it says, We write to you because many people believe that
you have the discretion to alleviate some of the hardships, and we
wish to solicit your views as to why you have been unwilling to exercise such authority in some of the cases. In addition, we ask
whether your view is that the 1996 amendments somehow eliminated that discretion.
Mr. COLLINS. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I cant.
Mr. COLLINS. You cant, or not possible, or dont want to?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Not right now. I am in the middle of reading
***Note: These submissions are available in the Appendix.

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Mr. COLLINS. Well, you are reading a letter
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman from Illinois controls the time.
Mr. COLLINS. Will he yield?
Mr. GUTIERREZ. I cant. If I could have that time back, because
I was trying to have a conversation
Mr. COLLINS. Well, I will be happy to give your time back, if you
put it in proper context. The letter, which
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman from Illinois controls the time.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Why are you so upset? You have three witnesses
to one already.
Mr. COLLINS. Well, because when you left the room the other day
I talked about
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman from Illinois controls the time.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Even the Attorney General has to laugh at that.
I mean, it is 3-to-1. It is stacked.
Mr. COLLINS. Well, 3-to-2 right now.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Oh, 3-to-2, okay.
Mr. GOWDY. Just so the gentleman knows, we stopped the clock.
The gentleman from Illinois.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you so much. I came here to try to have
a conversation, but you see how it gets in here, just reading a
memorandum signed. It is here. I have entered this into the record
a dozen times, so everybody should have a copy of it by now, and
everybody should know I am bringing it up each and every time
anybody talks about discretion, because it is established.
I mean, Henry Hyde, Illinois, Chairman of the Committee, signed
this. Lamar Smith, no pushover when it comes to those illegal immigrants and how the American Government should treat them.
So it says, Indeed, INS General and Regional Counsel have
taken the position, apparently well-grounded in case law, that INS
has prosecutorial discretion in the initiation or termination of removal proceedings. See attached memorandum. Furthermore, a
number of press reports indicate that the INS has already employed this discretion. Optimally, removal proceedings should be
initiated or terminated only upon specific instructions from authorized INS officials, issued in accordance with agency guidelines.
However, the INS apparently has not yet promulgated such guidelines.
So let us make it clear, it is well-established in the law, unlike
other parts of the Federal Government, that there is discretion
when it comes to the application of the law in immigration law.
And the attorney general, I have a definition here of politician.
Are you a politician? I have Websters. Are you a politician?
Mr. LAXALT. I am an elected representative, yes.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. You are a politician, right? I will find it, it will
say elected representative. I just want to get that in there. You run
for public office. So I can find you other definitions of politicians.
So just that we are clear, you are in the politics business, right?
And that is what you do and that is how you earn a living.
So I just came here to say, look, the Supreme Court is going to
answer this for us all. That is why we are a Nation of laws, right?
And we all know where this is going. I am not a lawyer, but I happen to know this is going to go to the Fifth Circuit.

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They picked the most conservative judge they could possibly find
to hear this case. They didnt come to Illinois with this case, right?
They didnt go to New York. They didnt even go to Nevada to pick
the case. No, they went and they found the judge who had alreadynot him but in his district. So they went to Southern Texas.
So, look, this is going to be decided. But I just wanted to make
it clear, because there seems to be some confusion, Mr. Chairman.
People keep saying that what the President did was unconstitutional. And the former attorney general and now Governor, another
politician in Texas, who was the attorney general, tweeted it is unconstitutional. Any of you read the decision, anybody read the decision and he said it was unconstitutional? Nope. Yet you have the
Governor of the State of Texas, a former attorney general, saying
it is unconstitutional.
You see the parameters were dealing in. We are dealing in political parameters on what should be an issue about how it is we deal
with an immigration system.
I just want to go back to my colleagues who spoke earlier. The
fact is, 4 percent, many of my colleagues like to argue the following, Well, why dont you just round up all the criminals and
deport them? Because we only provide sufficient money for 4 percent. Let me repeat that: We only provideand no one has ever
come here to suggest that we should provide any more money. So
it is always about the criminals and always in this context.
And even my friend, I am sorry he went, he said, oh, Mexico.
Why are we always talking about Mexico? Why did that Federal
judge only describe the border? What happened to the border at
LAX? What happened to the one at OHare? What about the one
in New York City, Kennedy? All of those are points of entries in
which millions and millions of undocumented immigrants have
come into this country, documented and have overstayed, and are
part of the 11 million, and, therefore, can be provided relief under
the Presidents order.
So my only point to you is, you are not going to deport 11 million
people. This is a political case. It will be judged on its merits in
the Supreme Court.
And I will just and with this, because the ChairmanMr. Chairman, I want to find a solution to the problem, not keeping having
hearings here where the four distinguished jurists who all know a
lot about the law are not going to decide the case. So why dont we
find a solution to the problem of our broken immigration system,
so that we can provide solutions to people, because I am sure most
of us would agree we should go after gangbangers, we should go
after drug dealers, rapists, and murderers, and not people trying
to raise their families in the United States that are caught up in
a broken immigration system.
And lastly, this is a very perilous place for my friends in the majority, because you have 5 million American citizen children who
are never going to forget for generations how it was you treated
their mom and their dad, how it was you treated their mom and
their dad, and if you treated them in a cruel manner.
That is the community. We are not a community in which the
undocumented and the documented live in a caste society. No, you
know what? Fourth of July, we are having hotdogs and ham-

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burgers, and on Thanksgiving, we are having turkey all together,
with our papers and without.
Mr. GOWDY. I am trying to treat my friend from Illinois in a good
way.
Mr. GUTIERREZ. You have been so generous, and I apologize.
Mr. GOWDY. No, you do not need to apologize. I thank the gentleman from Illinois.
The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from Texas, the
former U.S. Attorney, Mr. Ratcliffe.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to yield
my time to the gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Collins.
Mr. GOWDY. I think he is from Georgia.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Is there a difference?
Mr. GOWDY. We kicked him out of South Carolina several years
ago. He has warrants outstanding. He is from Georgia now.
Mr. COLLINS. I just wanted to clarify again, and we did this last
time. It is Groundhog Day. Here we go again.
The letter spoken of, which I went through this about a month
or so ago, was dealing with legal permanent residents. It was not
dealing in this discretion of illegal or crossingit was not dealing
in this issue. So basically to take a letter at the time when things
were taken out of a 1996 legislative reform in dealing with this, let
us at least be fair with the letter. And to come up here and to use
a letter, and take people who are no longer in this body, who no
longer can defend themselves, and even some who happen to be
here and just not on this Committee, to say that is just wrong.
I believe the gentleman from Illinois has a good heart. I just believe he is dead wrong on many things dealing with this. This is
one though, let us at least have an honest discussion about this.
Let us not at least throw in names so you can make yourself basically appear an argument that is not there. This is what is wrong
right now with this. This is what is wrong with this argument.
This is what is wrong the American people to get.
And I appreciate the gentleman yielding. And with that, I yield.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. I thank the gentleman. I am not sure if my faux
pas offended South Carolinians or Georgians, but my apologies to
both.
Mr. COLLINS. Probably equally.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. I thank all the witnesses for being here today.
I enjoyed reading your testimony and hearing some of it.
Professor Legomsky, it is very clear to me that you obviously
think the Presidents November 20 Executive order was constitutional. But it also appears to me that while you think the Presidents action was lawful, from reading the tone and tenor of your
testimony and your articles, it also seems to me that you want him
to be right.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I do. I believe in what he is doing and think he
is taking sensible actions. So yes, I confess to that.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. So do you consider yourself an advocate for the
rights of people who are in this country illegally?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I consider myself an advocate for the legal rights
of all people, whether they are here illegally or not. Everyone has
certain rights.

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Mr. RATCLIFFE. Okay, so people who come across our borders
without permission, are they here illegally?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Okay. Is there reason that you never refer to
them as illegal aliens or folks who are here illegally?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes. I have referred, on occasion, to people who
are here illegally, but I dont like the phrase illegal alien because
I dont like the idea that the word illegal would be used to describe a person. They have acted illegally. They have entered illegally. I have no objection to that. But the phrase illegal alien offends many people because you are defining an entire person by
one act.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. So to the Chairmans prior question, as I heard
your testimony, is the issue here really a constitutional one or is
it a budgetary issue? In other words, if we remove the limited resources question and issue, does this all go away, in your opinion?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think that is a very thoughtful question, and
it does tie in with a thoughtful question that Mr. Gowdy had asked
earlier. I dont think you can separate the two.
Whether this is constitutional depends on whether the President
has a justification for choosing the priorities that he has. And one
of the factors that has informed those priorities is the reality of
limited funds.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Professor, I think I know your thoughts on Judge
Hanens issuing the injunction. I think it is very clear. But I
missed some your testimony. Have you opined on whether or not
you think the Administration has violated the APA?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I have. I do not believe they have violated the
APA, and my basic reason, which I can state succinctly, is that the
only argument made for why the APA notice and comment procedures might be thought to apply would be that they didnt really
involve the exercise of discretion. And for all the reasons given in
my written testimony, I think there is simply no factual support in
the record for that conclusion.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Okay, what your written testimony that was provided doesnt address is the Governments response in seeking a
stay to the injunction. Do you agree that the Government is on
solid legal footing there?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I am sorry, do you mean in requesting a stay?
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Yes.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I do. A stay is a discretionary judgment, but certain factors inform it, one of which is how likely you are to succeed
on the merits, how much damage would there be to either side if
the stay is not granted, and so on.
I think reasonable minds can disagree about the stay. My own
view is that it would make sense to grant it.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, can you explain to me, Professor, from your
perspective, how our Federal Government is irreparably harmed by
not conferring benefits on what they refer to as third parties, what
I would refer to as folks who are in this country illegally? Can you
explain to me how the Government would be irreparably harmed?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. In the stay motion, the Government asserted two
different harms. One harm is simply to the Governments authority
granted by Congress to establish national immigration enforcement

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policies and priorities. The other harm, which is much more tangible, though, is that at this point the Government has already invested resources in hiring adjudicators, leasing physical space, and
so on, that will be eventually recouped by the revenue that comes
in from the request. But if that were to be shut down, then this
money would be wasted. And in the meantime, the Government
does have to continue its preparations, if it is to resume this on
schedule.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Well, so the Government asserts, to your point,
When these harms are weighed against the financial injuries
claimed by the plaintiffs, the balance of hardships tips decidedly in
favor of the stay. I hear you saying that you agree with the Governments assertion, in that respect.
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman from Texas is out of time, but you
can answer the question as succinctly as you can, Professor.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Sure. I strongly disagree with the idea that
Texas is going to lose even one penny because of this for several
reasons.
First of all, they never allege that they are going to have to hire
a single additional person to process these drivers licenses. It is
the marginal additional costs, not the average amortized cost that
should count.
Secondly, they dont
Mr. RATCLIFFE. Wait a minute. In fairness, Professor, all of these
folks, if they were allowed to stay under the Presidents Executive
order, they could apply for Texas drivers licenses.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Yes.
Mr. RATCLIFFE. And each of those would come at a cost to the
State of Texas of $130 per license times hundreds of thousands of
folks in the State illegally.
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Well, two things. The first point
Mr. GOWDY. Say them as quickly as you can. I am already 2 minutes over, okay?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Okay, sorry. I will go to the second point. The
second point is that while Texas, to its credit, offsets that cost by
the revenues it would receive from the applications, it still comes
out to a negative, if that is all you take into account. What they
dont take into account is what so many empirical studies have now
demonstrated, which is that their tax revenues will increase dramatically as a result of DAPA and DACA. There has even been a
study that specifically finds the same thing to be true for the State
of Texas. So they will gain financially quite a bit from this.
The third thing is that if you adopted this theory of standing,
just think for a moment of what it would lead to. If the mere fact
that, when a Federal benefit is granted, someone could then apply
for a State benefit were enough to confer standing, then every time
USCIS grants anything to anyone, the State of which that person
is a resident could then come in and say we have standing to challenge that. Surely, that is not what the standing doctrine was designed to accomplish.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Texas.
The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
Bishop.
Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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First of all, I want to thank all of the witnesses. It has been a
very enlightening hearing. So thank you all for being here today.
We have had several exchanges from Members regarding this
idea of prosecutorial discretion. As a former prosecutor myself, I
understand and appreciate the need for prosecutorial discretion
when it comes to ensuring justice. That is the role of the prosecutor.
However, what I do not understand, in this context, is how this
remedy that has been created, deferred action, exceeds what we
now know as prosecutorial discretion. And in fact, Professor Foley,
you indicated that the Presidents immigration order is unconstitutional for three reasons, and this was the second reason, and that
was the creation of the remedy deferred action. Can you expound
on that and tell me how it is different from ordinary prosecutorial
discretion?
Ms. FOLEY. Yes. It is a really great question because deferred action is something that Congress has authorized in specific statutes
for specific populations in the past. So there are some statutes out
there that say X, Y, or Z is entitled to deferred action. Now normally when something like that happens, if a court looks at the
grant of deferred action in another area, let us say A, B, or C, the
court would say, well, the fact that Congress clearly knows that deferred action exists and has granted it for X, Y, and Z necessarily
implies that they dont intend to grant it for A, B, and C. So that
is point one.
The other thing is that deferred action has been granted administratively, not by Congress in statute, but by the executive branch
on several occasions in the past. My written statement elaborates
on four instances that the OLC relied upon in blessing the constitutionality of the Presidents action.
For every single one of those, except for the widower or widow
one that President Obama took in 2009, all three of them involved
a situation where Congress had already passed a statute that gave
this group legal status. And deferred action was given administratively as a bridge until they could achieve the processing of that
status.
So in those situations, you can see that granting administrative
deferred action is perfectly consonant with congressional will.
Now the widow or widower one I dont think was legal, frankly,
because that was granted at a time when the applicable statute did
not grant that kind of deferred action to widows or widowers. In
fact, several months later, after that administrative deferred action
was granted, then Congress amended its statute. But at the time
the grant of deferred action was taken, that statute did not exist.
And, therefore, I dont think you can say it was consonant with
congressional will.
Now once Congress passed that statute, then it is game over.
And in fact, at that point, the Administration receded from its administrative grant of deferred action and just said it is none of our
business anymore. Congress has legislated it.
And that is all working correctly, right? So we will never know
whether that was legal or not, because it got mooted out by subsequent statute.
Mr. BISHOP. Thank you very much.

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Professor Blackman, is this something that you can comment on
as well?
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes, absolutely. So the Office of Legal Counsel
memorandum posed the key question: Is the President acting consonant with congressional policy? And the key aspect of consonance
the President has to look at whether Congress has acquiesced to
it. As Professor Foley noted, there are several instances in the past
where Congress has acquiesced to this.
But in each case for those deferred actions, it serves as a temporary bridge where there was some lawful status, something happened, and then something else happened, right? So to give you a
good example, in 2005 when Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf, you
had a lot of students who were studying at universities. Their
schools were shut down. They lost their status. They were foreigners.
So the President said I will give you 4 months to enroll at another university. If you take that time to enroll at another university, you will not be deported in that time.
In my mind, that is a good example of deferred action. Someone
had some status. Something bad happened, like Hurricane Katrina.
And then they lost it, and then you give it back to them later.
What is happening here is that there is no prospect of success.
So DAPA beneficiaries will not get anything after a 3-year period
is up. Nothing. The only way that they can get a visa if perhaps
their child turns 21 in the interim and perhaps they have a 10-year
bar on return to the country and that is waived. There is no opportunity for the DAPA beneficiaries to get any relief.
This is not really a tunnel. It is more of a bridge to go through
the law. I think that makes it inconsistent with the congressional
policy and, therefore, a violation of the take care clause of the
Constitution.
Mr. BISHOP. Thank you very much.
Mr. GOWDY. Thank the gentleman from Michigan.
The Chair would now recognize the gentleman from Iowa, Mr.
King.
Mr. KING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank all the witnesses
for your perseverance here today, too. This is a relatively long
hearing for us, and I picked up a lot sitting here listening.
I wanted to make a point here, and then move on to a broader
one, and that is this. Some years ago, I went through an exercise
of what Congress is obligated to do under Article III. This has to
go back to about 1802, when there were a couple Federal districts
that were abolished by Congress, court districts. I read through all
of that debate, and so I began to ask this question. What we are
obligated to do under Article III is produce a Supreme Court of the
United States. And we could conceivably abolish all of the Federal
districts and the only thing left would be the Supreme Court. And
the only obligation we have there, since it calls for a Chief Justice,
is to have a Chief Justice. But we dont have to fund the building
or his staff. He could be at his own card table with his own candle.
That is what Congress is obligated to do.
So I would suggest that Article III is pretty limited, if Congress
decides to assert its power and authority over it. If nothing else,
the workload would stack up on Chief Justice Roberts. So that was

155
just an exercise in constitutional discussion, more or less kind of
metaphysics.
So I just went down through Article II. Since the President is
usurping Article I authority, what does the President of the United
States have under Article II? I went through a number of these
things here.
He is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Congress
forms the Armed Forces. They may not exist, at least theoretically.
He may require an opinion of the principal officers of each executive department. He may, but there may not be departments for
him to require an opinion of.
Then he shall have power to grant pardons and reprieves, and
he has, with the advice and consent of the Senate, treaties and appointments, but then he is subject to the authority of the United
States Congress.
So in the end, the question comes down to, what enumerated
powers does the President have independent of congressional approval? That turns out to be six.
He may pardon.
He shall deliver the state of the union. If it is not an address,
it might be in a letter, as it was under the early Presidents. So he
could send a letter to Congress and meet that requirement.
He shall recommend legislation. Well, he does that without having to be prompted very much.
He may convene Congress. He may adjourn, but so may Congress
adjourn, so that is really not a power that is effective.
He shall receive ambassadors and ministers. That means that
the President then shall be the head of state and conduct the functions of a head of state, at least diplomatically.
And the last one is this wonderful one, He shall take Care that
the Laws be faithfully executed.
So when you look through that, the only two that have any
power really at all is the power to pardon, which could be significant under certain circumstances, but the power and the obligation
to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.
And I dont know that I have heard an argument as to how the
President might be doing that under the circumstances we are discussing here today. Not only that, not only is he violating his own
oath of office, it is very, very clear that he has said, I am not going
to enforce the laws that I dont want to enforce. And by the way,
Congress, I am going to recommend legislation to you, and if you
dont pass that legislation, then I am going to implement it by my
executive edict, not always Executive order, executive edict. And
I am going to take care that the laws that I dont want to be executed are not, including the section that requires that those who
were interdicted by law enforcement and immigration be placed
into removal proceedings, shall be placed into removal proceedings. And we have a President who says they shall not. And
he has ordered his executive branch to violate laws.
And by the way, some of this is not in litigation in the court case
we are talking about over the November 20 edicts, but it is under
litigation in the Crane v. Johnson case that was filed a couple
years ago, Crane v. Napolitano.

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So I would just ask this question, and that is, what if Congress
decided to usurp Presidential authority? What if President decided,
The President is not doing his job. He is not keeping his oath.
Why dont we form a justice department and fund a justice department and direct and order a justice department?
I would ask first the question of Professor Foley. If Congress decided to do that, we could enforce these laws. What would be the
consequence of such a thing?
Ms. FOLEY. It is a great question. I posed this before, the last
time I testified before the Committee on the Presidents action with
regard to Obamacare and delaying the employer mandate. The hypothetical I posed was what if the Speaker of the House decided
he wanted to appoint himself Commander in Chief? But it is the
same idea, right?
Article II can supposedly usurp Article I, but Article I cant
usurp Article II? It doesnt work either way. I mean, neither one
is constitutional.
The point about this being prosecutorial discretion, just ask yourself, everybody I think on this panel agrees that the $6 million
legal question on prosecutorial discretion is, is what the President
doing consonant with congressional will, because you get to control
your statutes and he has to faithfully execute them under the Constitution? So is what he is doing consonant with what you want
and what you have directed, pursuant to the INA? I think the answer is patently that it is not consonant with congressional will.
And just as a thought experiment, again, ask yourself this: Why
didnt previous Presidents think they had the authority to do this?
If this was so politically palatable for such a long period of time,
the last 30 or 40 years, why didnt President Clinton do it? Why
didnt President Carter do it? The reason they didnt do it is because no President thought they had the authority to do this because they didnt think Congress had authorized it under the INA,
which explains why the President went around 20-plus times and
said he didnt have the legal authority to do this.
By the way, the Supreme Court has said as much. There is a
case called Utility Air Regulatory Group v. EPA, involving EPAs
carbon tailoring rule that was decided last summer. In that case,
the Supreme Court basically said, look, one of the reasons why the
carbon tailoring rule violates separation of powers, and it did violate separation of powers, is because the EPA is promulgating a
regulation that flies in the face of years of understanding of what
the Clean Air Act was thought to give the authority to the EPA to
do as a regulatory matter.
It is the same thing here, the same form of construction of Congress will should take place in this case.
Mr. KING. In the end, and in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, it is the
people who decide the division between the three branches of government. And I think they need to declare war on the enemies of
the Constitution.
Mr. GOWDY. The gentleman from Ohio yields back his time.
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. DeSantis, is recognized.
Mr. DESANTIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Professor Legomsky, I just want to make sure I have it right.
Obamas statements 22 times that he said he didnt have the au-

157
thority, you are saying that he just meant that he didnt have the
authority to suspend all deportations. Is that accurate?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. I think he went further than that. He said his
authority is limited. He didnt have the authority to suspend all deportations.
Mr. DESANTIS. Right, but you deny that he has disclaimed the
authority to do what he did in November, correct?
Mr. LEGOMSKY. Right.
Mr. DESANTIS. I think that that is at variance with the facts.
February 14, 2013, the President of the United States, I am not
the emperor of the United States. My job is to execute the laws
that are passed. Congress right now has not changed what I consider to be broken immigration system. What that means is that
we have certain obligations to enforce the laws that are in place,
even if we think that, in many cases, the results may be tragic
here. We have kind of stretched our administrative flexibility as
much as we can.
September 17, 2013, he said, What we can do is then carve out
the DREAM folks saying young people who have basically grown
up here as Americans that we should welcome. But if we start
broadening that, then essentially I would be ignoring the law in a
way that I think would be very difficult to defend legally, so that
is not an option. What I have said is that there is a path to get
there, and that is through Congress.
So those are instances not where he is saying he cant suspend
everything. He is specifically saying he has reached his administrative limit, that he has reached the limit of what he can do. And
these are in response to questions that specifically wanted to address some of the classes of people that he has now addressed with
this latest executive action.
So to say, as you characterize it, is completely at variance with
the facts. And I think it really undermines your credibility.
Let me talk about the political statements versus legal statements.
Professor Blackman, I think you correctly point out in your testimony that this is not just all about the courts. Congress has a role
there. The powers we have are political powers and political
checks. So when the President is out saying these things, the idea
that he is making political statements that dont matterwhen he
vetoed the Keystone pipeline, he didnt go to court to do that. He
took a political action based on the power he had an Article II of
the Constitution. And you cited James Madison in Federalist 51.
Madison, is this not correct, in a later Federalist Paper said the
power of the purse is Congress most powerful check, correct?
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes, that is right.
Mr. DESANTIS. So Madison envisioned, if an executive branch is
acting a certain way, Congress could always simply remove the
funds so that the executive could not continue with the actions,
right?
Mr. BLACKMAN. That is right.
Mr. DESANTIS. So that is perfectly legitimate that Congress
would restrict funding, if they believe their powers have been infringed upon.
Mr. BLACKMAN. Yes.

158
Mr. DESANTIS. Do you also think that the advise and consent
power that the Senate has is a legitimate check on Presidential
overreach? In other words, if the President is putting someone in
a position who has pledged to continue conduct that we think infringes on our authority, the Senators could use that as a legitimate reason to deny someone appointment?
Mr. BLACKMAN. It is, and just 6 months ago, the Supreme Court
rebuked the Administration for making illegal recess appointments
in the Noel Canning decision. So this is a part of a very long trend
of when the Congress is gridlocked and they will not get along, the
President finds ways of bypassing it.
Mr. DESANTIS. And the courts do have a role, but it is a limited
role to cases and controversies. And isnt it the case that there are
going to be disputes between executive and legislative branches
that may not give rise to a case of controversy, and thus not be ripe
for adjudication in the courts?
Mr. BLACKMAN. That is right.
Mr. DESANTIS. So if you expect the courts to do everything, well,
then we are leaving a lot of authority out there that will essentially
be uncontested if Congress isnt willing to act.
Professor Foley, you mentioned that the key issue is if the executive actions are consonant with the underlying law. Isnt it the case
that the underlying law prohibits people who are here illegally
from having unlawful employment in the country?
Ms. FOLEY. Yes. In fact, the only way that this group, the DACA/
DAPA recipients are granted work authorization, is because the
Obama administration has decided to unilaterally grant them deferred action, which, again, that remedy, deferred action, is a remedy that Congress hasnt statutorily specified for this population.
Mr. DESANTIS. And the statute trumps administrative action or
executive memos or anything like that. So you have Congress that
said very clearly prohibition on employment. Now the President is
issuing 5 million work permits. So to me, that is absolutely in conflict with what Congress has said.
Let me ask you this, in terms of somebody who could be harmed
by this, if the President issues these work permits and the background is that people who are here illegally are actually exempt
from Obamacares employer mandate, meaning if I am an American citizen applying for a job, somebody here has one of these
work permits, they go and we have the same skills, we qualify for
the same wage, the person who is here illegally, actually, will be
cheaper for the business to hire, because they dont have to provide
Obamacare. They would have to provide it for a U.S. citizen.
So in that instance, would a U.S. citizen potentially have an ability to bring a lawsuit challenging that?
Ms. FOLEY. I think it is possible, although I have to confess, in
terms of standing, what the affected U.S. citizen would have to establish is but for the ACA nongrant of eligibility.
Mr. DESANTIS. Let us assume the employer just said, Yes, look,
I would have hired you, but I am saving $3,000 here. I mean, I
have to do that.
Ms. FOLEY. Yes. I think it is possible. I think if you have the
right facts and circumstances with an affidavit filed by the em-

159
ployer that but for he would have hired the U.S. citizen, I think
you could establish standing.
Mr. DESANTIS. My time is up. I yield back.
Mr. GOWDY. I thank the gentleman from Florida, on behalf of all
of us.
This concludes todays hearing. We want to thank our four panelists for your collegiality with the Members of the Committee and
your collegiality with one another. It has been very educational. I
felt like we were back in law school, so most of us will be waiting
on our C- grades later on this afternoon. Maybe not DeSantis or
Zoe, but the rest of us will be.
So, without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative days to
submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional
materials for the record.
With that, our thanks again to each of you. And we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 1:32 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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