Conversion Of Scfd To Acfd Of Gas In Api 12J

stu
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Oct 18 2008, 04:25 AM IP: 122.165.21.4

Dear Sir,
In API 12J Appendix D worked Example, for converting Standard flow rate to actual flo
I used the following formula

ACFD=SCFDx{(Temp.@ Actual / Temp.@ STP)}X{(Press. @ STP / Press. @ Actual)

then I convert the flow rate to flow per second.But I am not get the answer same as they
out.Please clear the doubts where i had done wrong.

Please explain the relation they arrived to find the actual flow rate from standard flow r
using molecular wt., volume of gas at STP.
Please explain.
Thanks & Regards.

Art
Montemayor

Oct 18 2008, 09:24 AM IP: Private

Stu:

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Member No.: 4

You don't give us your student background, but I must assume you are at univers
since you are dealing with an API document - something that is well beyond the
grade or high school levels.

If I am correct, then you should be well- prepared to logic and employ the Ideal G
Equation, PV = Z N R T. Using this Equation of State (E.O.S.) and the ability to
employ an electronic spreadsheet such as Excel (which, if you are a university st
India, you should be well versed in) you should be able to derive, employ and
demonstrate that the equation you found in API 12J is valid.

Please do me the favor of preparing an Excel spread sheet and employ the equati
above to find the equivalent volume of an ideal gas at "standard" conditions. Be
copy the EXACT EQUATION FOUND IN API 12J. You should be able to derive
same, exact equation and make the conversion in Excel without any problems. W
have the Excel Workbook ready, submit it to us in this thread. I will personally re
and work with your product to ensure it is correct and if not, will point out where
going in the wrong direction.

If you are unable to do the above, give us your reasons (i.e., you don't know how
don't have Excel or another spreadsheet; you don't want to; you don't have the tim
etc.).

I consider this an important step in your preparation towards becoming an engine

you agree with me, you should follow my recommendations. If not, then tell me

same, exact equation and make the conversion in Excel without any problems. W
have the Excel Workbook ready, submit it to us in this thread. I will personally re
and work with your product to ensure it is correct and if not, will point out where
going in the wrong direction.

If you are unable to do the above, give us your reasons (i.e., you don't know how
don't have Excel or another spreadsheet; you don't want to; you don't have the tim
etc.).

I consider this an important step in your preparation towards becoming an engine

you agree with me, you should follow my recommendations. If not, then tell me
can explain what it all means.
--------------------

ankur2061
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Oct 18 2008, 10:13 AM IP: 62.61.164.12

Stu,

The concept of standard cubic feet to actual cubic feet is given very precisely in the
following articles found on the web. These explain in terms of time in minutes inst
day but it is only a matter of conversion from minutes to day. If you notice the und
principle is the same as the ideal gas equation (PV = ZnRT) as mentioned by Art. T
you a further hint consider the two conditions as condition 1 for standard and condi
actual and apply the ideal gas equation.
http://www.dresser.com/internet/businessun...R-SCFM-ACFM.pdf
http://www.pdblowers.com/t6-scfm- standard-...-actual-cfm.php

For % relative humidity, CAGI (Compressed Air and Gas Institute) uses 0% instead
36% mentioned in the articles above.
Let us see you come up with a spreadsheet.
Regards,

stu
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Oct 20 2008, 10:59 PM IP: 122.165.21.48 Post #4

Dear Sir,
Please find the Excel I had prepared for The conversion of SCFM to ACFM
based on your guidance.
The excel results Actual flow rate as 5.42 ft 3 / sec for 25MMSCFD flow rate of
gas (molecular Weight = 20.3) at 800 Psig & 80 Deg F. But in API 12J it results
as 4.552 ft3/sec.
Please correct me to get the right results from excel sheet.
Thanks & Regards.
Stu
Attached File(s)
SCFM_ACFM_Conversion.xls ( 36.5K ) Number of downloads: 28

From:
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as 4.552 ft3/sec.
Please correct me to get the right results from excel sheet.
Thanks & Regards.
Stu
Attached File(s)
SCFM_ACFM_Conversion.xls ( 36.5K ) Number of downloads: 28

katmar
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October 21, 2008; 01:16 AM IP: 196.35.158.18

stu,

As far as I can see your spreadsheet is perfect. I have written a similar conversion rout
my free units conversion program "Uconeer" (free download from www.katmarsoftwa
In my version I have to convert from SCFM to mass flow, and then from mass flow to
but in the end I get exactly the same answer.

Your spreadsheet is more rigorous than it really needs to be for this particular example
as you are assuming that the ideal gas law holds, you do not need to worry about the m
mass and the ideal gas constant (unless you need mass flows). A simple ratio gives the
answer, i.e.
Q2 = Q1 x (P1/P2) x (T2/T1) = 17361.1 x (14.7/814.7) x (540/520) = 325.3 acfm
I do not have the API 12J document so I cannot comment on why their answer should
different.
--------------------

katmar

October 21, 2008; 02:27 AM IP: 196.35.158.18

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Stu - sorry I saw in your original post that you had already used the ratio method
obviously understand well what you are doing.
-------------------http://katmarsoftware.com

Art
Montemayor

October 21, 2008; 06:21 AM IP: Private Post #7

Stu:

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Member No.: 4

Good job of responding and showing interest in your development.

As you may suspect, I created an Excel Workbook of my own on this
problem the same day I read your query. I created and stored it in my hard
drive at home. I am presently at work and will submit my explanation and
workbook to this thread as soon as I get home from the gym (I put in 3.5
miles of walking daily, after work). I apologize for not having it here at
work today to share with you.
Will post tonight.

ChE Jedi
Group: Admin
Posts: 1,765
Joined: 8-March
03
From: Spring,
Texas
Member No.: 4

Good job of responding and showing interest in your development.

As you may suspect, I created an Excel Workbook of my own on this
problem the same day I read your query. I created and stored it in my hard
drive at home. I am presently at work and will submit my explanation and
workbook to this thread as soon as I get home from the gym (I put in 3.5
miles of walking daily, after work). I apologize for not having it here at
work today to share with you.
Will post tonight.

ankur2061
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October 21, 2008; 12:40 PM IP: 62.61.164.67 Post #8

Art/Katmar,
I also have prepared a spreadsheet based on the articles mentioned in my
earlier post on the same topic.
Could you please review the sheet and let me know your valuable comments.
Regards,
Ankur.
Attached File(s)
SCFM_to_ACFM.xls ( 29K ) Number of downloads: 11

Art
Montemayor

October 21, 2008; 06:30 PM IP: Priva

Stu:

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Attached is the Workbook I promised.

Note that I have presented the entire example - word for word - as given in API 1
this on purpose for several reasons:

I wanted to show students how easy it is make a mistake by simply believing eve
you read without applying logic and deriving the equations given when you have
opportunity. That way, you can confirm the validity of the equation as given.

I have always regarded this specific example as one of the worst examples of a fo
engineering calculation. Please read through my presentation of the example and
comments.

The API is a great and marvelous engineering organization - but it isn't GOD. En
students, in my opinion, should respect the effort and information given in the AP
Recommended Practices and Standards; but they should also feel free to challeng
question what they consider as not being correct or what they feel is flawed. This
being critical for the sake of being contradictory; it is critical of weak or possibly
erroneous engineering. We all, as engineers, stand to profit from seeking accurac
truth in published material. We are all human, so any peer check we can obtain is
our favor.

I don't know why you were not getting the correct answer. You have not revealed

The API is a great and marvelous engineering organization - but it isn't GOD. En
students, in my opinion, should respect the effort and information given in the AP
Recommended Practices and Standards; but they should also feel free to challeng
question what they consider as not being correct or what they feel is flawed. This
being critical for the sake of being contradictory; it is critical of weak or possibly
erroneous engineering. We all, as engineers, stand to profit from seeking accurac
truth in published material. We are all human, so any peer check we can obtain is
our favor.

I don't know why you were not getting the correct answer. You have not revealed
problem was. My effort has been concentrated on showing you and other student
approach another engineer's efforts at solving a problem and learning from the su
and the failure of such attempts. I hope this helps you and other out.
API_12J_Example.xls ( 21K ) Number of downloads: 15
--------------------

stu
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October 21, 2008; 10:18 PM IP: 122.165.21.48 Post #10

Dear Art Sir,
Thanks for your reply & guidance regarding this conversion. I am also used the
same equation as you mentioned in your excel for the conversion of flow rate
from one condition to another
V1=V2(T1/T2)*(P2/P1)
But I am not able to get the answer as mentioned in API for the flow rate.
Please clear me whether I had done the wrong thing in my excel.
Please explain. Awaits your valuable reply.

katmar
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October 22, 2008; 01:46 AM IP: 41.242.155.12

Art,

Thanks for posting your spreadsheet. As I mentioned before, I do not have the API 12J
was not in a position to work out why Stu's answer was different. But now it is clear.

In Stu's worksheet he calculated the gas density and got a value of 2.854 lb/ft3. My Uc
gives the same value. However, in the API document the gas density seems to be an en
value rather than a calculated value. They use 3.4 lb/ft3 for the gas density.

If we adjust Stu's answer for the gas flow rate of 5.42 ft3/sec by the ratio of these 2 diff
densities we get the API value, i.e.
5.42 x (2.854/3.4) = 4.55 ft3/sec

Now the question becomes, "where does the value of 3.4 lb/ft3 in the API 12J spec com
Harvey
--------------------

Africa
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No.:
14,549

If we adjust Stu's answer for the gas flow rate of 5.42 ft3/sec by the ratio of these 2 diff
densities we get the API value, i.e.
5.42 x (2.854/3.4) = 4.55 ft3/sec

Now the question becomes, "where does the value of 3.4 lb/ft3 in the API 12J spec com
Harvey
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JoeWong
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October 22, 2008; 02:15 AM IP: 83.206.101.49 Post #12

Harvey,
I have done same exercise as you did... while i gone through the workbook by
Mr. Montemayor & stu...i found one simple point that explained the
differences...
One of the main ASSUMPTION by Mr. Montemayor, stu and yourself is
assuming compressibility factor at actual condition (Za) same as
compressibility factor at Standard condition (Zs).
For Natural gas i.e MW=20.3, the Z is close to 1. However, as the pressure
increase whilst maintaining the temperature low, the z factor starts to drop.
Refer to GPSA, 23-6, the Z factor at 800 psig (55.17 barg) @ 86 degF (26.67
degC) is about 0.84-0.85.
So this is very significant to density and actual flow...
At Z=1, density = 2.854 lb/ft3 (just take your value)
At Z=0.85, density = 2.854 / 0.85 = 3.36 lb/ft3 (approx. at 3.4 lb/ft3)
This explained why API 14J has taken 3.4 lb/ft3.
Stu,
Hope this help.

katmar
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October 22, 2008; 02:49 AM IP: 41.242.134.189 Post #13

Joe,
Thanks for the good work. The combination of low temperature and high
pressure should have alerted me to this. Problem solved, thanks to you.
Harvey
-------------------http://katmarsoftware.com

Thanks for the good work. The combination of low temperature and high
pressure should have alerted me to this. Problem solved, thanks to you.

Members
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Harvey
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JoeWong
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October 22, 2008; 04:18 AM IP: 83.206.101.50

Harvey,
Welcome.

I am pretty happy with this discussion as this thread contains necessary basic informa
effort by all, step by step approaching to conclusion...
Good works for all.
--------------------

stu
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October 22, 2008; 07:26 AM IP: 122.165.21.48

Dear Sirs
Art / Harvey / Joe wong / Ankur

Thanks for your guidance in Directing me in a right way. I herewith attached the Z-cha
Mr.Joe Wong indicated one, which will be useful for others also to check .
Thanks Once Again.
Thanks & Regards,
Stu.
Attached File(s)

abc420

October 22, 2008; 01:40 PM IP: 119.154.20.23

Newbie
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Art
Montemayor

Thank you all of you for providing such an expensive concept

October 22, 2008; 02:40 PM IP: Private Post #17

Stu/Ankur/Harvey/Joe/All:

ChE Jedi
Group: Admin
Posts: 1,765
Joined: 8-March
03
From: Spring,
Texas

Please forgive my oversight in assuming that the Compressibility Factors

would cancel out in my derivation of the required equation. I wanted so
much to show Stu (& other students as well) the importance of knowing
and understanding the origin of these relationships that in my haste I
simply did the easiest step and cancelled out the "N", the "R", and the "Z" as I normally do in most cases. However, as has been pointed out in this

Art
Montemayor

October 22, 2008; 02:40 PM IP: Private Post #17

Stu/Ankur/Harvey/Joe/All:

ChE Jedi
Group: Admin
Posts: 1,765
Joined: 8-March
03
From: Spring,
Texas
Member No.: 4

Please forgive my oversight in assuming that the Compressibility Factors

would cancel out in my derivation of the required equation. I wanted so
much to show Stu (& other students as well) the importance of knowing
and understanding the origin of these relationships that in my haste I
simply did the easiest step and cancelled out the "N", the "R", and the "Z" as I normally do in most cases. However, as has been pointed out in this
valuable thread, NOT IN ALL CASES! While it is obvious that the
number of moles and the Universal Constant remain the same and must
cancel out, the Compressibility Factor - as noted by Joe - does not.
That was my mistake and I thoroughly apologize for the oversight. I am
revising the spreadsheet derivation.

5 AM IP: 122.165.21.48 Post #1

d flow rate to actual flow rate ,

STP / Press. @ Actual)}

he answer same as they worked

e from standard flow rate by

09:24 AM IP: Private

ume you are at university level

hat is well beyond the realm of

and employ the Ideal Gas

O.S.) and the ability to also
you are a university student in
derive, employ and
d.

and employ the equation I cite

ndard" conditions. Be sure to
should be able to derive the
thout any problems. When you
ad. I will personally review it
ot, will point out where you are

., you don't know how; you

; you don't have the time; etc.,

ds becoming an engineer. If
ns. If not, then tell me and I

thout any problems. When you

ad. I will personally review it
ot, will point out where you are

., you don't know how; you

; you don't have the time; etc.,

ds becoming an engineer. If
ns. If not, then tell me and I

3 AM IP: 62.61.164.123 Post #3

n very precisely in the

of time in minutes instead of
If you notice the underlying
s mentioned by Art. To give
for standard and condition 2 for

M.pdf

hp

titute) uses 0% instead of the

65.21.48 Post #4

M to ACFM

D flow rate of
PI 12J it results

AM IP: 196.35.158.183 Post #5

similar conversion routine for

om www.katmarsoftware.com).
hen from mass flow to ACFM,

this particular example. As long

ed to worry about the molecular
A simple ratio gives the same

520) = 325.3 acfm

hy their answer should be

AM IP: 196.35.158.183 Post #6

y used the ratio method so you

: Private Post #7

opment.

wn on this
ed it in my hard
explanation and
m (I put in 3.5
ng it here at

opment.

wn on this
ed it in my hard
explanation and
m (I put in 3.5
ng it here at

1.164.67 Post #8

oned in my

able comments.

8; 06:30 PM IP: Private

ord - as given in API 12J. I did

y simply believing everything

given when you have the
equation as given.

worst examples of a formal

on of the example and my

- but it isn't GOD. Engineering

mation given in the API
so feel free to challenge or
hey feel is flawed. This is not
al of weak or possibly
from seeking accuracy and
check we can obtain is all in

You have not revealed what the

- but it isn't GOD. Engineering

mation given in the API
so feel free to challenge or
hey feel is flawed. This is not
al of weak or possibly
from seeking accuracy and
check we can obtain is all in

You have not revealed what the

you and other students how to
nd learning from the success
other out.

15

5.21.48 Post #10

m also used the

of flow rate

ow rate.

AM IP: 41.242.155.12 Post #11

o not have the API 12J spec so I

But now it is clear.

of 2.854 lb/ft3. My Uconeer

nsity seems to be an entered
gas density.

he ratio of these 2 different

n the API 12J spec come from?"

he ratio of these 2 different

n the API 12J spec come from?"

.101.49 Post #12

e workbook by
d the

yourself is
as

the pressure
arts to drop.
86 degF (26.67

b/ft3)

134.189 Post #13

and high
to you.

and high
to you.

AM IP: 83.206.101.50 Post #14

ecessary basic information,

AM IP: 122.165.21.48 Post #15

with attached the Z-chart as

to check .

PM IP: 119.154.20.23 Post #16

ve concept

Private Post #17

ibility Factors
I wanted so
e of knowing
my haste I
R", and the "Z" ted out in this

Private Post #17

ibility Factors
I wanted so
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my haste I
R", and the "Z" ted out in this
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me and must
oes not.

versight. I am

API SPECIFICATION 12J (SPEC 12J)

SEVENTH EDITION, OCTOBER 1,1989
APPENDIX D
SEPARATOR SIZING EXAMPLE CALCULATION
(

(Input data in YELLOW cells can be varied)

Design Conditions:
Gas flow rate =
Oil flow rate =
Operating pressure =
Operating temperature =
Flowing gas density, dG, (for 20.3 mol. wt. gas) =

25 MMScfd
3,000 BPD
800 psig
80 oF
3.4 lbs/ft3

Flowing oil density, dL, (for 40o API oil) =

51.5 lbs/ft3

Separator type =

Vertical, two-phase

Tentatively assume 10 feet shell height, 30% liquid full and use a K value of

0.3

(see Table C.l and Equation C.l.l of Appendix C).

The maximum allowable superficial velocity of the gas is:

Va K

d L dG
dG

1.128 ft/sec

Actual volume flow rate of gas =

25,000,000 SCF/day x 20.3 lbs/mol ft3 / (379.5 SCF/mol x 86,400 sec/day X 3.40 lbs/ft3 sec) = 4.552 ft3/sec

Min. gas flow area = (4.552 ft3/sec/ 1.128 ft/sec) = 4.035 ft2
Min. ID of separator = (4.035 x 133 /0.7854)1/2 = 27.2 inches
Use 30 inch ID separator as next largest standard diameter. (Note that 30 inch OD might be preferable,
but ID size is used here for simplicity of illustration.)

Assume no less than 1 minute retention time for two-phase design with oil gravity exceeding 35o API
(equation C.l.6 and Paragraph C.1.7 of Appendix C).

Liquid volume, V (excluding bottom head) =

2.62 barrels
Note Art's Comments on this

The liquid capacity of the separator =

3,777 BPD

Liquid capacity is satisfactory for design based on 30 in. ID x 10 ft. vertical separator size.

Comments on API Calculation Example:

These calculations, as given in API 12J are not of good quality or expression of logic. Note that
there is no mention that the calculations are, in reality, a "rating" for an assumed cylindrical liquid
sump height of 3 feet. The "liquid volume" calculation is badly described and calculated.
The retained liquid in the sump of the separator is the quantity of liquid product that determines the
"retention time" - at the assumed steady-state liquid flow rate. Therefore, if one is to establish a
minimum retention time of 1.0 minutes for the liquid, the calculations for the quantity of liquid in the
sump should be based on the time increment over the 1.0 minutes - usually done by adding factors
expected to extend the retention time. These are considered "contingency factors" - factors that an
experienced engineer knows have to be applied but because of lack of specific data, scope, design
details, or other circumstances that can't be identified (but are still expected), have to be assumed.
If one minute is the minimum acceptable, then possibly a multiplying factor of 3.0 might suffice.
Once the actual design retention time is known, an accurate calculation of the total liquid inventory
maintained in the separator's sump is easily done - including the volume of the bottom head.
The "liquid capacity of the separator" as calculated above means little - if nothing at all. The
liquid calculated represents nothing more than the conversion of the sump volume into a liquid flow rate
by dividing by the "retention time" assumed. The retention time DOES NOT play a role in determining
the liquid handling duty of the separator. The capacity of the separator is determined primarily by its
diameter - and to another extent by its height (above the sump's liquid level).
Liquid retention time is important; but disengagement space and height anre the primary functions of
any vertical liquid-vapor separator.

At the initial, "Standard" Conditons:

P1 V = Z1 N1 R T1
At the final, "Actual" Conditions:
P2 V = Z2 N2 R T2
Dividing one equation by the other, and considering that the Compressibility Factor, the moles, and
the Universal constant, R are essentially the same and cancel out:
P1 V1 / P2 V2 = (Z1 / Z2) (T1 / T2)
Therefore,

This is the derived equation necessary

to convert from one condition to another.

V1 = V2 (Z1 / Z2) (T1 / T2) (P2 / P1)

3,000 barrels/day =

16,844 ft3/day =

11.70 ft3/min

for 1.0 minutes:

Separator volume retained =

2.08 barrels

on necessary
on to another.