A Search for Emptiness: An Interview with Jonathan Harvey

Author(s): Matthew Jenkins and Jonathan Harvey

Source: Perspectives of New Music, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Summer, 2006), pp. 220-231
Published by: Perspectives of New Music
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A Search for Emptiness:

An Interview with
Jonathan Harvey

*?

Matthew

*?*

Jenkins

interview tookplace throughout the

afternoon ofJuly 24, 2005 at
in
house
Tffls Jonathan Harvey's
Lewes, United Kingdom.
Matthew Jenkins (MJ): When did you first encounter Buddhism? Did
have a large initial impact?

it

Jonathan Harvey (JH): I came to Christian mysticism strongly in about

1960. Perhaps 1959. When I was studying that therewere many ref
erences to Buddhism and oriental
philosophy. I began to read about
Buddhism at that time. However,
I became more interested in
Indian meditation techniques, which were concrete and practical.
Although there were still interests in Buddhist literature, philoso
phy,

and

art,

there

was

something

littie

too

abstract,

austere,

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or

A Search for Emptiness 221

too distant from God about Zen. It was only later that I began to
get close to Buddhism. That was about ten or twelve years ago. I
can point to a work like Forms ofEmptiness. It is a choral work from
1986 based on the Heart Sutra quoted in Sanskrit. It is entirely a
Buddhist work. I used a lot of Christian texts before that.
It has been a steady growth, but I really started practicing about
ten years ago. Then I didn't mind that therewasn't any emphasis on

God anymore. I always felt before that I had to have a figure or fig
ures that were supernatural in my pantheon. That helped me to
relate, because I am a kind of Bhakti person, someone who thrives
meta
on the idea of devotion. That involves a human metaphor?a
a
to
I
interact
with
couldn't
human
love.
Without
of
figure
phor
grasp the characteristic of warmth in thismetaphysical strand. I find
in Tibetan Buddhism that all of the deities come back in a very
and

colorful

baroque,

strange

way.

However,

in a

they're

sense

all

empty just like every thing else is.The Tibetans have a different rela
tionship to these other beings.
has your relationship with Buddhism
with
Christianity and mysticism?
ship

MJ: How

JH:

changed your relation

important respect it has made me look more deeply into

Christianity and its Indian roots. A fair amount is being written
these days, but when I was young I don't think itwas written about
In one

at all. For

Nag

Sea scrolls and the

instance, the discovery of the Dead

Hamardi

manuscripts

has

revealed

all

of

these

suppressed

gospels and writings: the gospel of Thomas and the secret letter of
John, for example. These texts show an obvious relationship with
teachers. Many people now suggest that Jesus had
quasi-Buddhist
contact in those forgotten years of his lifewith those kinds of teach
ers.Whether he actually traveled south to India or they traveled to
his

area

entrance

is uncertain,

but

it seems

absolutely

clear

that

there

is an

there.

I findmyself going more towards the Jesuswithin you rather than

the Jesus out there of St. John's gospel. It is different from the other
three gospels. Itwas a thing of John's tomake Jesus into a divinity. I
realize that is a rather one-sided way of looking at Christianity and
what the church teaches now. There is another way to look at it. I

don't know who's right, but I know which I prefer. I prefer the
Gnostic version of Jesus. His relationship with Buddhism is rather
beautiful, close, and full of a kind of mystical light. That iswhat
appeals

to me

very much.

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222 PerspectivesofNew Music

MJ: Do

you practice meditation?

JH: Yes.
long have you done so?

MJ: How

ten years. I practiced Hindu, or Vedic, meditation for about

twenty years. That iswhen I started daily practice. I just changed
fromVedic to Buddhist, but at least I got into the habit of meditat
ing. I think it is important. It doesn't do to just read or think about

JH: About

it.Does

MJ:
JH:

it?

It is not the same.

It isnot a philosophy to be intellectualized about, but one to be lived.

MJ: Which

schools of thought speak to you more

closely?Why?

JH: Tibetan. The New Kadampa tradition1 is the one that I follow, but
all Tibetan traditions speak tome closely. They're similar actually. It
just happens that the monk I have teachings from is from the New
tradition. It is close to the Dalai Lama's, but not exactly
Kadampa
the same. I have had a lot of contact with Zen Buddhists. I like the
I was going to say psychological
rather more colorful and ...
schools, but Zen is also psychological. The Tibetans are skillful.
They know what human minds are like and how much they love
things to grasp onto. The Zen masters are a little bit severe. They
make great demands, which I couldn't always feel comfortable with.
Maybe my mind is too weak!

MJ: Have
JH:

you ever lived in a monastery?

I have only lived in Christian monasteries. In some ways they are

quite close to Buddhist monasteries. I think the monks themselves
would admit that and would even likeme saying it.They often take
great interest in Buddhist thought and findmany things in common.
In February I went to some Buddhist monasteries inNorth India in
the foothills of theHimalayas and lived just opposite a monastery in
a guest house. I was there every day. I didn't really call it "living in a
monastery," but I talked to a lot of the lamas there. Some of them
were marvelous people. They were very devoted and would go into
solitude and retreats for three months and often longer. I just

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A Search for Emptiness 223

received a letter from a friend who recently came out of a three

month retreat.He is planning another for six or nine months. They
speak to no one. They hardly survive, because they eat so little.Their

research into consciousness and the spiritual is incredible. I admire

that enormously. I love the people. They are so charming.

MJ: What

area was themonastery

JH: Rajpur.
Tibetan
MJ:

in?

It is north of New Delhi

border.

near the mountains

close to the

In Uttar Pradesh?

JH: Yes.
it occur to you that the notion
appropriate lens to view music through? How

MJ: When

JH:

did

of emptiness was
so?

an

I think itwas after I started taking fairly regular lessons and classes
with the Tibetan group about ten years ago. It began to dawn on
me slowly that this iswhat music is all about. In fact, I would almost
say all art, but particularly music. As I explain in the essay,2 it is
remarkable once you see that. To me it is as clear as daylight?what
we love inmusic iswhat we call emptiness. It is a kind of reality that
is being shown us in as clear as possible way in this serious art of
music.

Not

in bad

music,

but

in music

that we

call

good.

We

call

it

good, because it is empty. That is really my thesis. If it is banal or

chaotic then it doesn't have emptiness. If it is somewhere in
between there and it has something ambiguous,
subtle, teasing,
mysterious, or all the other magical things we want inmusic then it
is because it is empty.
MJ:
JH:

Is it subjective?
It depends on each person's education and ability to receive the pat
terns. One person could receive Schoenberg's
patterns and to
another person it is just chaos. There are emotional filters too. I
think sometimes we can receive a Tchaikovsky piece and another
time we can only receive a Stravinsky piece. It is different from per
son to person. You could call it subjective. Every mind is different
from

every

other.

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224 PerspectivesofNew Music

MJ:
JH:

Do you diink that itwas music or Buddhism that fueled this realization?
Itwas Buddhism. If I hadn't studied Buddhism, I would have never
realized it. I would have never come to it clearly. Emptiness is quite
difficult. I go to these classes and see the puzzled faces on people
who have even been practicing for a year or two. Even quite intelli

gent people find it hard to grasp emptiness. It is not an obvious

thing. It goes against everything thatwe have been led to believe in
our culture. I don't think it is the same in Eastern cultures. Empti
ness is natural from the age of three onwards. It is in theirway of
thinking, but for theWest it is not in our way of thinking. It is coun
terintuitive, and it is possible that I would have never grasped empti
ness without my Buddhist teachers.

MJ: Did you have any experiences before this realization that you viewed
music through the lens of emptiness?
JH: Yes, inmy love of ambiguity and disguise. For instance, I have been
doing electronic music since Princeton in 1969. Since those days the
shifting quality of sound has always fascinated me. Once you get a
computer on ityou can change anything into anything. It is just like
emptiness. Nothing really exists except for the labels you stick on.
That became important forme in listening to my [own] and other
or Boulez,
the
people's music. Whether by Beethoven, Machaut,
music depends on that quality of flux. Things change into each
other and set up seemingly strong ideas and dissolve them. It has
certainly been with me for a long time.

MJ:
JH:

Is the notion of emptiness suitable for all music?

I think so. I think all good music, or music that has been liked, is
is an important qualification. I am trying to think of
any music that I don't like that I would not call empty or not think
to have an element of emptiness to it. Then we get into areas like
chant or chanting on one note. They do not have emptiness. I don't
suitable. That

know. Often chanting on one note depends on many other things

like the 'sacred' acoustic, the words, the situation and the ritual.
There could be borderline cases. A lot of other music doesn't have
anything to do with emptiness. It just doesn't make it clear. It is
nothing. It is just a mess. It is not music except in some technical
sense.

Just banal

. . .

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A Search for Emptiness 225

MJ: What parameters or characteristics are more suitable for the notion
of emptiness? Or, is it justwithin one's self?
JH: The
my

MJ:

of ambiguity. The

perception

things I was

talking about

in

essay.3

You
to

that Lachenmann

suggested

and Sciarrino

lend themselves

emptiness.

is an interesting trend that is everywhere evident in the

young composers that I see in the various classes I give around
Europe. I am not talking about in the States so much. I think the
influence isn't nearly so great there. The trend of breaking up the
solidity of sound is one I see happening since about the beginning

JH: Yes. There

of the twentieth century. I don't think that Lachenmann

and
Sciarrino are Buddhists, but they are concerned with what I am talk
ing about inmy essay. It is this unnamed thing,which we could call
emptiness. It is to do with the fascination of the changing, the estab
iswhat it
lishing and the changing, or the flux of reality.Nothing

seems. When you listen to Lachenmann

it is clear that you have a
violin that doesn't seem to be a violin from the sound it ismaking.
At times you recognize a bit of 'violinness' about the sound it is
making. Half of the time it is something completely different from
the violin for all intents and purposes. All of these disguises and
destructions of fixed labels are important to their music and aes
thetic.

Lachenmann

tional,

traditional

MJ: Do

you mean

is passionate

about

destroying

the

conven

gestures.

cultural constructs?

JH: Yes.
MJ:

Is it a proper state of mind or the musical

of listening experience? Or both?

JH: It is all in themind. There

MJ:

object that aids this type

is nothing beyond mind!

In light of Nishida's
theory of pure experience, do you think an
musical
egoless
experience is possible such as the self and the mus
ical object collapse into one for a more pure experience?

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226 PerspectivesofNew Music

quite a higher state when you experience unity with

out-there objects. One gets glimpses of it.That
objects?seemingly
is an important state towards which music aspires. People often say,

JH: Yes. That's

"I was

completely

lost

lost." In a good

in the music

...

listening experience,

I was

. .The

lost.

this is quite

was

ego

but

common,

only briefly.
MJ:

Like an entrancing type of experience?

JH: Yes. Ecstatic standing outside oneself. There is no separation between

mind and object. No duality anymore. That is the idea of uncertainty.
MJ: How

do you perceive
experience?

the ego and what

is its role in the musical

JH: The ego is illusory, but the illusory ego certainly plays a role in a lot
of musical experiences. It kind of does a dance. It dances around in
its illusoryway. Of course we think it is real. I thinkwe are in some
way involved as egos, but in ambiguous music you constandy get
tripped over. The ego is put through its paces. It often gets a bit dis
oriented. That is nice. Some people can occasionally get afraid if the
music gets powerful, loud, or domineering. It knocks the ego out of
its security.The Rite of Spring must have frightened a lot of people in
its time.

There

are many

successors

to that. The

role

of the

ego

is cer

tainly present. Studying how the ego is battered and assaulted would
be a fascinating study somebody should write about. The ego is kind
of shown to be illusory ifyou are watching carefully.
MJ:

Perhaps

in extremely quiet and stillmusic

as well?

is reallywhere I think the ego can be put to rest. It can

stop jumping around and themind can become tranquil and expand

JH: Yes. That

into vast

MJ: Do

empty

space.

you think the ego relates to the notion of beauty?What

is beauty?

is a very interesting question, because beauty is partiy sexual.

Sexuality has a lot to do with the ego and so on. Beauty transcends
sexuality and becomes something different, but the borderlines are
fascinating. Aren't they? It's an extremely good and difficult ques

JH: That

tion and it is absolutely at the heart of the aesthetics and, above all,

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A Search for Emptiness 227

ethics. I think it could be approached

someone who is old.

in a long book, perhaps by

MJ: (Laugh)
JH:
MJ:
JH:

(Laugh) But not before.

Perhaps yourself.? (Laugh)
(Laugh) One day. I think there is a rather interesting intention in
Tantric Buddhism in the use of beauty to quickly obtain spiritual
ends. It involves using your imagination, but it is kept a secret
because it can be abused. One is not supposed to talk about itunless

it is to people who have had the instructions and teachings from a

master. It is a fairly sensible precaution. The typical sensationalists of
modern-day life could abuse it. It is an approach to beauty that can
be extremely powerful and can lead quickly, so themonks say, to the
attainment of an awakening.

kept

MJ:

It is extraordinary and old. It has been

secret.

Is beauty emptiness?
Beauty is the means to emptiness. It is a kind of technique if
you like. Those of us who are dealing with art and emptiness inevita
bly come across the question: "What is beauty?" Beauty has a lot to

JH: No.

do with

emptiness.

I wouldn't

go

so far as

to

say, "It

is emptiness."

in
There are so many objects that are called 'virtuous objects'
Buddhism that are extremely beautiful. For instance, one could call
'goodness' beautiful. As Kant said, goodness and the beautiful are
the

same.

To

observe

someone

being

kind

or

compassionate

to

another person is beautiful. In that sense, beauty is close to the vir

tuous objects. As I said, it is a complicated question. There are many
types of beauty. One would have to unpack them all.
MJ:
JH:

Do

you see the composer as a shaman-like figure?

I think so. It is not a bad description. Of course shamans can deal

with a darkness that has to do with bad or unvirtuous things. That
is the other half of shamanism. The composer as somebody who
mediates between higher, other, or invisible forces is absolutely a
correct supposition, I think. Some composers, but not all compos
ers fit that description.

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228 PerspectivesofNew Music

MJ:

JH:

Is the composer a complex set of cultural constructs and any distinct

voice perceived is just an illusion of personality?
I kind of believe that, but then people say tome, "You have a voice.
I can pick out your music." And, I say, "Can you? Well, I am not
aware of it." I justwrite what I want towrite. If it sounds like some
one else, I am just not too worried. My compositions are different

from one to another, but I guess one can't avoid connections with
others' worlds unless one is an enlightened person. Then itprobably
wouldn't happen. I don't know quite what the music of an enlight
ened person is.When you think of the late quartets of Beethoven
there is a great quality of Beethoven in them. In many ways they
seem to transcend everything.
MJ:

They're

inmany ways.

ambiguous

JH: Fundamentally, the voice as a bundle of stuffthat has been collected

from our histories, environments, and karma is a good description.
MJ: Do you think that the composer's intent of encoding a score with
extra-musical meaning aids in communicating themessage behind a
programmatic work?
JH: Yes. The

intention of the subject and themusic can come as a com

plete package. It is no different from painting a picture of an object.
It is both a mark making and a reference. Music can't escape its ref
erences.
a
or

It

running,
chanting.

relates

always
dancing,
It

just

or
can't

to an
gesture
escape.

agitated
movement;
There

or

calm

heartbeat

or

breath;

or

speaking,
exclaiming
is reference
all over. What

ever people might say, there is no neutral level. If you write a title or
program, it is just extending what is already there. It certainly helps
the listener to enter into what is in the composer's mind. On the
other hand, ifnothing is consciously in the composer's mind, what
are you going to title it except
perhaps "Symphony" or something?
MJ: Does music

communicate meaning?

JH: Yes. Yes. The extra-musical meaning is strong, but ultimately empty.
That is the strength of music. We know emotions of tragedy, com
edy, romance, and mysticism are strongly portrayed in music, but
ultimately music is just notes and vibrations in the air. It is not even
that. It is just things in our brains and minds. We can see in the

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A Search for Emptiness 229

music that they don't have any real existence. They are constructs in
our minds, ways our minds think, and ways our minds can make
sense of things. Yes and No. There is the conventional answer and
the ultimate answer, the Buddhist one.
MJ: What are the differences between a religious Buddhist music, such as
Tibetan chanting, and non-religious music that describes its self as
Buddhist, such as one of your Buddhist songs? Is there no difference?
JH: We obviously have the rite and the concert hall. There are times
when a concert hall tries to become a rite. Oftentimes there are com
posers who want to achieve that. Perhaps some do. Whether the two
remain in separate compartments is an interesting borderline issue
too. As

I was

saying

earlier

about

the

chant

on

one

note,

the music

in a rite doesn't contain such a high degree of inherent

in
themusical sense. It is doing something else. The music
emptiness
is conveying techniques formeditation, purification, and formaking
the fears and torments of existence. It is
people happy?assuaging
about many things other than being about emptiness. That music is
functional, rather than simply being an empty music, existing as a
that is used

picture of thiswonderful vision of illusion that we are calling com

plex, or sophisticated, music. There is a difference in function one
could lay out like that, but the borderlines can be blurred.
MJ:

JH:

Speaking of some of your pre-existing works, is there any connec

tion between the works that attribute themselves to the notion of
emptiness, such as Forms ofEmptiness and Wheel ofEmptiness^.
I don't think there is a fundamental difference. I think in the
Buddhist works I am more conscious of emptiness. Sometimes I
tried to make it clear for the listener, but, no, I don't think there is a
fundamental difference.

MJ: Did you want to write works about emptiness or did the titles occur
to you afterwards?
JH:

In the case of Wheel ofEmptiness and Forms ofEmptiness, I wanted

to write about emptiness. With Wheel of Emptiness I knew more
about it than in '86 with Forms ofEmptiness. In Wheel ofEmptiness I
did it using two ideas of flux: firstly chaotic and formless music and

secondly music of extreme form, as two contrasting objects of mat

erial. In Wheel ofEmptiness I was showing theway inwhich we take

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230 PerspectivesofNew Music

objects and fetishize them. We give them labels and see them as
individual things. You highlight the contradictions of the dialectic in
the process of perceiving emptiness when you juxtapose a profusion
of notes that are always changing against constructs which are fixed

and don't change at all. In a meditation on emptiness, you also have

to find, identify,examine and realize the object of negation as 'truly
existent'. You then 'see through' the object, and fail to find its veri

fiable existence apart from the mind thatmakes it appear. You then
meditate on emptiness. It is essential that you startwith something
that seems not to be empty. Then you demolish it. That iswhat I
was doing [in Wheel ofEmptiness]. This process is like the collage
artists that put a scrap of newspaper or a bus ticket into their paint
ing. They just stick it on. It sticks out as an object which doesn't

normally belong to the world of painting. It is fun. It doesn't

belong to the world of painting, but someone like Picasso could
make it belong by sheer showing of that deceptive real existence. It
is not really a bus ticket. It is part of the paint, part of the flux of
form or formlessness?part of the Stardust from which we all come
from and beyond. It is a false form. It is an interesting way to com
pose forme. Bird Concerto with Pianosong
I do exacdy the same thing.

MJ: What

is another piece inwhich

about thework From Silence)

JH: It is a litde bit Buddhist. I wrote some of the textsmyself. They are
rather Buddhist. It uses monastic Christian texts from a somewhat
such-and-such
Buddhist point of view.Would you say, "Is Mozart's
a
answer
How
I
work?"
Buddhist
could
that?
Yes. It is for
symphony
I
is Buddhist.
it
much.
All
of
the
that
like
but
doesn't
music
me,
say
MJ: Are your Buddhist Songs meant to be a religious or spiritual experience?
JH: They were written for Buddhist occasions. They are fairly simple
and meant to be functional music. I set texts they use and know in
Buddhist circles. The
and they are
songs are 'church music'
Buddhist certainly in their structure, but simplified.

MJ:

JH:

Those were all of my formal questions.

like to add?

Is there anything you would

I am writing an opera on a Buddhist theme, which is a combination

of things. It is about Wagner and his death at the time he was in

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A Search for Emptiness 23 I

lodging in the Palazzo de Vendramin. He was writing his

on
the feminine in culture and had just started to write about
essay
the Buddha in this Buddhist legend. He suddenly died of a heart
attack. Buddhists, as you may know, say thatwhat you are thinking

Venice

about at themoment of death is the supreme mind of your life. It is

themost important state of mind of your life.At any rate, I take this
moment ofWagner's
death and follow his mind. It is obviously a
The
of
mine.
opera explores what happened to him at the
fantasy
what
he thought about thiswonderful theme in
of
and
death
gate

the Buddha appears. That is the whole evening. We have

Wagner on the stage speaking, not singing, with his family; and an
Indian cast, one of which is the Buddha. It is a beautiful story, an
old Indian legend. It is a clash, or dialectic, between nineteenth
century romanticism and Buddhism. Wagner knew quite a lot about
it.His vision of nirvana
it for his time, but I think he misunderstood
was rather bleak and nihilistic in some ways. It lacks the laughter of
true Buddhism. Playing his vision of Buddhism off of the Buddha's
which

is at the back of the story.

Notes
school
1. The essence of the New Kadampa
tradition, a Mahayana
is cherishing others and
founded byMaster Atisha (A.D. 982-1054),
proving oneself on the spiritual path to be able to benefit all living
beings. It centers on meditation and how acts of daily life can lead
towards enlightenment. Contemporary New Kadampa
Buddhism,
also

known

as

Kamdampa,

centers

teachings and temple, The Manjushi

around

Center,

Geshe

Kelsang

in England.

Gyatso's

2.

Jonathan Harvey, "Music and Buddhism . . . ," inMax Paddison and

Irene Deliege,
editors, Contemporary Music: Theoretical and Philo
sophical Perspectives (Aldershot: Ashgate, forthcoming).

3.

Ibid.

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