I N S I GH T P U B L I S H I N G

S E V I E R V I L L E , T E N N E S S E E
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2005 by Insight Publishing Company.

All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any
form or by any means without prior written permission from the pub-
lisher except for brief quotations embodied in critical essay, article, or
review. These articles and/or reviews must state the correct title and
contributing author of this book by name.


Published by Insight Publishing Company
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Printed in The United States


ISBN: 1-932863-87-8
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Table Of Contents

A Message From The Publisher............................................................vii
Steve Lishansky....................................................................................... 1
Ken Blanchard....................................................................................... 19
Ed Kugler ............................................................................................... 35
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA ............................................. 53
Diane Hanson ........................................................................................ 71
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL..................................................... 89
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D........................................................................... 101
Jack Canfield ....................................................................................... 115
Linda Larsen........................................................................................ 129
Ridgely Goldsborough ......................................................................... 143
Kerry Daigle......................................................................................... 153
Doug Dvorak ........................................................................................ 167
Will Cross............................................................................................. 185
Jarik E. Conrad ................................................................................... 193
Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D. .................................................................. 205
John Christensen................................................................................. 215
Donna Dougherty ................................................................................ 229
Terri Norvell ........................................................................................ 243
Jim Smith, Jr. ...................................................................................... 259
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A Message From The Publisher


Time is a precious commodity in the fast-paced world in which we
live today. The amount of information available to us is so over-
whelming theres just no keeping up with it all. Reading or word-of-
mouth used to be the only way to disseminate information but today
we have the Internet, radio, and television giving us instant access to
all kinds of information including local and world events as they hap-
pen.

With time so valuable, sorting through the vast amount of infor-
mation out there can be a daunting task. Masters of Success has been
carefully put together to help you quickly learn tips and the inside
information you need to live a full and successful life. This book con-
tains some of the most interesting conversations I have ever had with
several of the most successful people I have ever met.

The comparatively small amount of time you spend with this book
will reward you with more information about success than you can
find just about anywhere else. It is my pleasure to invite you to sit
back, relax, and get ready to be inspired!





Interviews conducted by:
David E. Wright
President, International Speakers Network

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Chapter One
STEVE LISHANSKY
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Steve Lishansky. When senior executives
and top professionals commit to realizing more of their full potential,
producing much better, more sustainable results, and taking their
organizations to a higher level of success, Steve Lishansky is often
the person they call. As a leading Executive Coach, organizational
consultant, author and respected speaker, Steve brings his 3-
Dimensional Effectiveness principles and practices to talented ex-
ecutives of top global companies in elevating their professional and
organizational productivity, profitability and fulfillment.
As co-founder and principle of Koanetic Consulting, he has pro-
duced exceptional results with top executives and companies as
diverse as: Johnson and Johnson, PricewaterhouseCoopers, MetLife,
Oakley, AT&T, Freddie Mac, Fidelity, Glaxo Smith Kline, State Farm
Insurance, the Federal Aviation Administration, Booz Allen Hamil-
ton, and many more.
Steve, welcome to Masters of Success!
Steve Lishansky (Lishansky)
Thank you so much David!
Masters of Success
2
Wright
Right up front, let me ask you, what is the key to being successful
with other people? Is it inter-personal success and effectiveness?
Lishansky
Well, the essential element of professional successfor any per-
sonis how well they interact with people. That goes for your
colleagues, your boss, the people who work for you, your clients
anyone you need to interact with who can affect the outcome of your
business. Your ability to be of value to those people and to help them
be valuable to you is the most critical factor for creating professional
success.
Taken to another level, consider a situation as a leader where per-
haps you dont even get to interact directly with those who are part of
your organizationwhether theyre clients or your team. When you
start managing large corporations or large divisions its almost im-
possible to know everybody you deal with. In that case it becomes
even more important to use the same principles of inter-personal ef-
fectiveness to be able to create value for the people who are in your
business network for success. Whether theyre your colleagues, your
workers, or your clients, the essential question is this: do you create
value for them, and in return do they create value for you?
Wright
As you can imagine, Ive asked this question often of people and
they say its being a good communicator or influence, so why is it not
one of these?
Lishansky
People often say the essential skill for success is being able to
communicate well. Ill tell you a quick story. I was brought in by a
company CEO one time who knew me and said, My board says we
need the senior team to communicate more effectively. Wed like to
have you help us communicate more effectively.
I looked at him and I said, Communicate for what?
He took a deep breath, looked at me, and said, Ill get back to you
in two weeks.
The key issue is that communication is an essential, critically
valuable tool, but it is only a tool, and in and of itself it is not as im-
portant as what it can build. It is the toolthe bridgefor all the
work we do. It is essential to recognize that communication is a
Steve Lishansky
3
means to an end and not the end itself. If we communicate more effec-
tively we become better influencers. If we can influence people, which
means being able to move them more effectively, once again, that is a
means to an end.
What we contend is the ultimate end result you really want is to
be able to create immense valueas much value as possiblewith
everybody you do business with. Whether they work with you, for
you, or theyre clients of yours, you want them to value you highly.
Ultimately, your value in the market place is determined by the value
that others believe you provide to them. Remember, communication is
the tool to get more influence, but value is the ultimate objective we
must seek and develop.
Wright
So how did you develop your understanding of what makes people
inter-personally successful?
Lishansky
I think I can say I did it the hard wayI made all the mistakes. I
started out in sales and marketing, and I started and ran companies.
The key issue I always found was that we were in a very competitive
business and we had a very hard time differentiating ourselves even
though we were highly creative, because our best products got copied
all the time. We started asking, how can we separate ourselves from
the competition when were in a viciously competitively market? Basi-
cally, within a few months after we would innovate, somebody would
copy us.
We started to look at ways in which we could influence our clients;
great service is obviously one. We decided that taking care of them
better than anybody else, creating more what we might call added
value or value above and beyond the products we provided, could
set us apart. What we started to do was ask how we could be more
valuable to our clients, and what would be valuable to them?
We had a lot of ideas about what we could do and as we started
talking to clients we discovered that they didnt necessarily share the
same ideas we had. In conversations, we started to hear from them
what would be valuable from their perspective. We started to under-
stand their point of view, which was significantly different from ours
as a vendor.
The more we listened to our clients and the more we understood
our clients, the easier it was to tailor our products and services to
Masters of Success
4
specifically meet what it was that they were looking for, and to do it
in ways they found to be the most enjoyable, most advantageous, and
of the highest value possible.
By being able to do it in advantageous and valuable ways, totally
in tune with what our customers were looking for, we were able to
separate ourselves from the competition. People decided they pre-
ferred to do business with us, regardless of what we were selling at
any given time.
When I left that business, I decided to take this kind of under-
standing and bring it to my corporate clients. We teach our clients
how to build these highly valuable relationships with their external
clients, as well as with their internal people. If your people are get-
ting value by working for you and your organization, youve got very
loyal and highly productive people. When your people stop seeing that
what matters to them is what matters to the organization, then you
begin to lose their interest, their attention, and their productivity.
Looking to survive, looking to thrive, and then looking to differentiate
ourselves from the competition taught us that the best way to do this
is to get clarity and understanding about what others really and truly
value. That is what led us to develop our high value relationships sys-
tem.
Wright
Why do you focus on principles and practices rather than tech-
niques and tips?
Lishansky
We always say that there are two ways to fundamentally create
better results. Those two ways are: First, you can change what you do
(basically your techniques). This is an interesting challenge because
under stress you are likely to revert to your habits rather practice the
techniques I give you. I can tell you six or eight ways to be a better
communicator or to improve your relationships, or to become more
profitable. If I tell you better things you could do, in our stressful and
overwhelming environment today your chances of remembering them
under pressure are slight and your chances of being able to actually
do them under pressure are even smaller than that.
The second way you can actually change your results is to shift
what we call your mindsetyour perspectiveyour way of thinking
about something. I can tell you six actions or techniques to create
value, but you may not remember any of them. If you approach an
Steve Lishansky
5
engagement on the basis of asking yourself how you can create more
value rather than how you can communicate better, you have funda-
mentally shifted your approachyour perspectiveyour mindset.
Shifting your mindsetthe questions you operate with and the
perspectives that drive your actionson one hand is often actually
much simpler than changing your techniques or your actions, which
are often limited by entrenched habits. Shifting the perspective or
framework of thinking that drives the actions you choose to take is
far more sustainable, even under the pressure and stress experienced
in your daily professional life.
Wright
How does inter-personal success relate to the other two dimen-
sions of success that you write and speak aboutpersonal success
and organizational success?
Lishansky
In the context of finding how to be most effective with the execu-
tives we work with and their organizations, we asked, What are the
critical driving forces and factors that most determine their success?
What we discovered is there are really three dimensions of success
and effectiveness:
1. The personal dimensionHow well are you attuned to
what matters most to you? How well are you fulfilled in
what is really most important to you? We have consis-
tently found the most fulfilled people are those who live,
think, and act consistently with their purpose, their val-
ues, and their sense of self. It is obvious that the most
fulfilled people are also the most energetic, creative, and
talented people who are bringing more of themselves,
their talents, drives, and creativity to work. On a personal
basis, your fulfillment directly affects your effectiveness
and your success.
2. The inter-personal dimensionThis is the aspect we
are talking about here and it has to do with your ability to
bring value to the relationships you have. It directly leads
to significant increases in your productivity, which is a
function of how well you work together with others.
3. The organizational dimensionThis is about the so-
cial structure within which we operate. Organizationally,
the driving force of success is actually leadership. The
Masters of Success
6
quality of leadership is fundamentally the single largest
determining factor of your long-term success. The inter-
esting thing is that leadership successthe driving force
of organizational successis really intertwined with and
built upon personal and inter-personal effectiveness. The
three dimensions we talk aboutpersonal, inter-personal,
and organizationaladdress every contingency weve en-
countered. What were doing in this particular section is
focusing on the element that is most obvious and most in
demand today by our corporations for them to be more
successfulinter-personal success. Thats the obvious first
step, although the other two are also important.
Wright
What are the stages and steps to inter-personal success?
Lishansky
We have three stages, each containing two specific steps that con-
stitute our principle-based map of the interpersonal effectiveness
process. We also need to set the context for an approach to this jour-
ney. When you want to create more value in your relationships, which
is critical to professional success, what you really need to do is under-
stand your role and responsibility in building that inter-personal
success. It starts with your ability to facilitate gaining clarity about
what is most important to the other person. If you want to be most
productive, most successful, and most valuable in your business and
relationships, your job is simply to facilitate what is most important
to the other person.
The reason we do that is because most of the people youre talking
with are not really clear about what is ultimately most important to
them. Look closely and check it out for yourself! This doesnt mean
they dont have strong opinions about what they want you to do, but
you begin to find that, very often, what theyre asking you to do is not
directly connected to what matters most to them. Therefore, if you go
out of your way, bend over backwards, and do exactly what they
asked you to do, and at the end it didnt give them what they really
wanted, who takes the blame? Obviously, as the service provider, you
take the blame for their not getting what they really needed and val-
ued.
You must make sure that what youre doing is actually going to
deliver the maximum value possible. That often means you need to
Steve Lishansky
7
facilitate clarity with the other person about what would be of real
value, which is often not clearly stated nor is it even clear to the per-
son making the request of you.
Here are some sobering statistics: We have asked thousands of
people, What percentage of the time is the initial request you receive
directly connected to what is ultimately most important to the person
making that request? The average response from thousands of peo-
ple in the U.S. and around the world is under fifteen percent. (Weve
had group responses go as high as sixty percent!)
Heres what that means: If the response indicates fifteen percent it
means that eighty-five percent of the time, if you do exactly what
someone asks you to do, youre not doing whats really valuable to
them! As the service provider you bear the responsibility for that miss
in delivering value. Thats why they call on youthey assume you
have the expertise to do whats really needed. Now even if its sixty
percent of the time that what youre being asked for is what they
really value and need, that means forty percent of the time theyre
not getting what they value and need, even if you do what they ask
you to do.
The critical issue here is, you must always start by helping them
to gain clarity about what they really need and value before jumping
into action. The interesting element about this is if you take on the
role, in a professional and inter-personal sense, of being the one who
facilitates whats most important to the other person, you add value
to them before you ever start to deliver products or services. In your
initial conversations you are already demonstrating your value to the
people you deal with by virtue of the fact that youre helping them
gain greater, more important clarity about what would really be im-
portant and valuable to them. Recognize that context because it
shapes what youre going to do.
Now lets talk about the three stages that constitute the process of
building interpersonal effectiveness.
Stage Number 1 You need to engage them. Enter this stage
with the mindset of understanding that your role is to facilitate clar-
ity with the other person. Realize that they are rarely perfectly clear
themselves. That requires two specific steps:
a. Shift your focus from yourself, your agenda, and
what it is that you came into the meeting with so that
you can actually and literally focus on them, their
agenda, and what is going on with them. Doing this
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8
well gives you the opportunity to make the second re-
quired step of the engaging stage:
b. Build rapport. Rapport means an empathetic con-
nection with the other person. The thing thats
important about our connection with that other per-
son is we often try and do that via thinking,
intellectual, analytical, verbal ways which are not the
profound movers of inter-personal, empathetic con-
nection. For example: When you go to a meeting and
everybody is saying the things youd like to hear, but
you walk out and feel uneasy, we call that uneasy
feeling your gut feel. Which would you trust, their
words or your gut feel? Its always the gut feel. What
you are responding to is non-verbal communication
the tone of voice, the body language, and how congru-
ent that is with the words being spoken. The non-
verbal elements represent ninety-three percent of
communication. This is based on Dr. Albert Mehrab-
ians study about how communication happens. Seven
percent is words, thirty-eight percent is tone of voice,
and fifty-five percent is body language (Silent Mes-
sages, p. 77, Wadsworth Publishing, 1971). For many
of us who work on the phone, body language is no
longer part of our equation. This just means that the
percentage related to tone of voice and words change
proportionatelyto close to eighty percent for tone of
voice. You can listen to somebody and very often you
can hear when people are doing their e-mail while
youre speaking to them. Very often you can hear
when people are disconnected or not paying attention
to you, whether youre there in person or youre just
on the phone with them.
These are critical factors to reckon with. If you can engage some-
body (which means s/he knows youre present for them) and h/she
feels that connection with you (we call that empathetic relationship
rapport), then youre in a position to move forward. Now, this is a
natural progression. When you first meet someone, the first thing you
want to do is see if you have a connection with him or her. Do I feel
anything for this person? Do I feel like theres any connection? Do I
feel a resonance of some sort? When you do, the next natural step is
to find out more about the person.
Steve Lishansky
9
Stage Number 2 in building high value relationships: We call this
stage navigating. What that means is we need to navigate to find
the best path or route to get to what really matters to them. This is
the critical factor: we feel a connection with somebody, want to un-
derstand him or her better, but the best way to understand someone
better is to really understand what s/he values, whats important to
him or her, what s/he cares about, and what his or her decision-
making and evaluation criteria is. If Im working with you, for you, or
youre a client of mine, the more I understand your decision-making
and evaluation process, the more likely I am to know whether or not I
can actually provide value to you in a significant way. I also know
how to influence your decisions so that youll see the value that I have
for you. If I dont understand your decision-making, its like throwing
darts at a target 100 feet away. Now, most of us have been in busi-
ness long enough have learned that even at 100 feet we can hit the
bulls-eye every now and then. However, if you understand the deci-
sion-making and evaluation criteria of another person, to get him or
her to be able to perceive your value and the contribution you can
make to his or her success is like moving the bulls eye six inches
away. So the second stage is really about navigatingunderstanding
whats important to the other person, then discovering his or her
evaluation and decision-making process. This means you understand
the values by which others make their decisions.
Stage Number 3 Aligning and delivering. Once we have navi-
gated, were now in a position to move to the stage that we call
aligning. Our actions now align directly with what is important to
them and we can now deliver what is most important to them. This
means that what were doing will not be wasted effort. What were
doing will not need to be re-done, and it wont be based on miscom-
munication, misunderstanding, or misdirection because weve already
defined whats most important and weve got agreement that if we do
x then they will be satisfied.
The summary of the three-stage process is: Weve engaged and es-
tablished a connection with them, then navigated to their decision-
making evaluation criteria, and then were able to make choices that
align our actions to deliver what they value most.
Wright
Let me ask you to clear one thing up before we go to the next ques-
tion. I was fascinated by this eighty-five/fifteen percent finding. Lets
say Im in the business of helping people with their computer prob-
Masters of Success
10
lems and the client asked me to fix his old computer and I know for a
fact that he should be buying another computer. Are you saying hes
wasting my time and his money by trying to repair the old one?
Lishansky
Yes. Let me give you a more specific example. If somebody says, I
need you to fix my computer, or in a more professional sense given
our clients, major IT organizations are told, I need you to write this
program so that we can do x, y or z. The real key issue is we need to
understand why that program is valuable to them. What theyve de-
termined to be the actionrepair the computer and write the
programmay not actually deliver what theyre trying to accomplish,
which is perhaps increase their business, improve their profitability,
and/or reduce their overhead expenses by virtue of automating some
of their services. If we dont understand what generated that re-
questthat particular desire for an actionthen we dont understand
whats really moving them to ask us to work with them. If we dont
understand whats moving them to make the request its like throw-
ing a dart at a dartboard 100 feet away. The likelihood of hitting the
bulls-eye is slim.
Wright
So, as we talk about the practical applications of these principles
at work, how do the principles of high-value relationship help us ad-
dress being overwhelmed at work?
Lishansky
The most predominant emotions at work today are being over-
whelmed and stressed. A lot of that is coming from the fact that most
people are being asked to do a lot more than they ever did before.
Most people are not in a position to be able to do everything that
theyre being asked to dowhether youre a CEO of an organization
or youre just a manager in the organization. The challenge is youre
being asked to do a lot of things, many of which have questionable
value, even for the people asking you to do them. If you dont have the
ability and the skills to be able to understand whats really valuable
to the people youre working with, or to your clients, or to your or-
ganization, you end up with a to-do list that would choke an elephant!
The problem with that is you feel like a gerbil on a treadmill rac-
ing to catch up with your to-do list, which is often getting more and
more disconnected from how you deliver value.
Steve Lishansky
11
Losing clarity and effectiveness about what is really important,
and just doing tasks is the fastest way to be overwhelmed. The fastest
way out of being overwhelmed is to have clarity about your most im-
portant priorities and to make sure that those priorities are directly
aligned with what is most valuable for you, for the people youre
interacting with, for your clients, and for your organization. If you are
clear about what is most valuable to those you interact with, then you
can actually trim your to-do list significantly, prioritize it easily, and
make sure that everything you do really does deliver value and is not
just another to-do to be checked off. Being able to prioritize clearly
and quickly what matters most is the fastest way out of being over-
whelmed that weve ever found.
Wright
As you consider mistakes that professionals make, based on your
years of experience, would you give us two or three of the most com-
mon mistakes made in communicating with other people?
Lishansky
We call a lot of these communication mistakes of top professionals
expertise traps. Expertise is a very useful and valuable aspect of
professional life today. However, expertise is useful for this funda-
mental reason: because a person with expertise can add more value
by knowing more about useful aspects of business, than somebody
else does. However when expertisea form of having the right an-
swerbecomes your predominant focus, then you have probably lost
touch with what people need to use expertise for. What that means is
youthe expertcome in knowing the answer to an issue before your
clients may even know the appropriate question to ask. Thats what
experts are about; they are hired because they know more about a
specific topic or area. The challenge is that experts are not valued for
having the right answer; they are valued for delivering value to the
client or person they are dealing with.
If clients dont understand the problem or the issue, then they
wont value the experts solution. Clients only value the experts an-
swer in direct proportion to the connection they can see between the
experts answer and what is really important to them.
If you provide an answereven a definitive, correct answerin a
situation where your clients cannot understand the issue, the prob-
lem, or how your solution provides value to them, you get little or no
credit for your answer or the value of that answer. In fact, that is one
Masters of Success
12
of our basic axioms in building high-value relationships: Being
right is insufficient for being effective. As we always like to say,
If you want a real life test of that, anybody whos married knows
what Im talking about. That is a great example of a high-value rela-
tionship, of how being right is insufficient for being effective.
High value relationships dont mean that there are no disagree-
ments or misunderstandings. What they do offer is a basis for quick
resolution and constantly increasing value. Mistaking being right for
being effective is one of the critical mistakes that drop top profession-
als, executives, and technical experts into the expertise trap. In the
stress, speed, and overwhelming tasks of work they are often think-
ing (and worse, sometimes saying), I know the answer. Just stop
your demanding, listen to me, and let me give it to you. The reality
is, until the other person understands the value of their issue or prob-
lem they wont give you any value for your solution.
Another key issue is that experts tend to assume people either
trust them, are willing to defer to them, or think that they know what
they are doing. The problem isespecially as we have greater and
faster access to resources via the Internetits very easy to find ex-
perts in any field. Not so many years ago, it would have been difficult
for you to quickly find five people who could solve your problem. To-
day, in minutes, using their favorite search engine they can find
dozens of experts who could potentially work on their problem. One
important question for you as the expert is: what will differentiate
you?
This leads us to expertise trap problem number two: Experts talk-
ing about what they dotheir process or their servicesversus the
results and value of the results for their clients. Reality is that most
of your clients dont care about what you can do, and due to their lack
of expertise, they are not in a position to differentiate your expertise
level from your competitors. Most clients cannot tell the difference
between your expertise and that of your top four competitors. The
real question then becomes: how will they determine from whom they
will buy services? If theres not much difference between Companies
A, B, C, or D, what is the deciding difference going to be?
The difference comes down to who they believe will be able to un-
derstand them, take care of them the way they want to be taken care
of, deliver the maximum value, as well as have the expertise they
want. It comes down to the fact that the way you conduct your rela-
tionship with them is the single biggest determining factor of whether
or not theyre going to trust you, respect you, and believe youre going
Steve Lishansky
13
to have the kind of communication and collaboration that they really
want to have from their professional provider.
Wright
So, what distinguishes the most successful communicators and
leaders from the rest?
Lishansky
Following along with what we just discussed, what distinguishes
them is their ability to get to the heart of what matters to people, and
to bring clarity and connection to what really matters for the people
they do business with. They address what people value and care
about, and reconnect them to these issues.
We talk about values all the time in business today. Values de-
termine what people care about and focus on. If a leader is clear
about the values that are important, whether it is that they want
people willing to take on challenges, or be highly responsible, or hold
a high degree of integrity, then the basis of decision-making for their
people becomes simpler, clearer, and faster. This is a huge asset and
competitive advantage at work today. What happens is the more a
leader can focus their people on the important values of the organiza-
tion, the more a leader can speak to and create the culture that
supports those values, the clearer and faster that decisions can be
made, and the more respected and successful that leader becomes.
Wright
What causes difficulty in communications?
Lishansky
There can only be three sources of problems in communication. It
has to be you, the other person, or how you are communicating to-
gether. With our professional clients we often ask the question, What
percentage of the time are you effectively communicating? The aver-
age usually runs between sixty to eighty percent. That means that
sixty to eighty percent of the time our professionals are effective in
their communication, which also means that twenty to forty percent
of the time they are not.
The challenge is often they dont know what to do when its not
working, because most of the time it does. An analogy is being in a
foreign country where somebody doesnt understand what youre say-
ing. What we tend to do when a foreigner does not understand what
Masters of Success
14
we are saying is to say it louder, with bigger gestures, as if that would
make a difference. The same thing happens at work. When we are
used to being effective eighty percent of the time, when it does not
work it must be someone elses fault. Then we just tend to do what we
always do, but do it louder, with bigger gestures and emphasis; but of
course that wont work.
The process we offer provides a map of what you do when youre
successful so you can understand whats not happening when youre
not being successful. That explains the issue when youre successful
sixty to eighty percent of the time and not successful twenty to forty
percent of the time.
Lets examine what is going on when others might be the source of
miscommunication. When we ask people what percentage of the time
their clients initial requests are directly connected with what is ulti-
mately most important to their clients, the average is under fifteen
percent. Even if it was fifty percent it means that half the time youre
in trouble if you do what they ask you to do. Youre not going to de-
liver value and, in fact, you are going to fall short of whats really
needed. Often the issue is helping them get clear because theyre not
any more clearand perhaps even less clearthan you are.
The third possible issue is: do we understand each other? To illus-
trate this point we will put five people on a team and ask them to
write down the first five things they think of relative to something
they have in common, such as: client, leader, information technology,
computers, and human resources. Then we ask them how many exact
matches they have. We have found that over ninety-five percent of
the time there are no matches whatsoever. This means that none of
the five people at the table would have any of the words we used in
common. If you just took any five people and said the word client,
you would get totally different associations from each of those five
people.
The lesson here is that while we may understand what the word
means, we dont understand what the person means and its im-
mensely more critical to understand what the person means. So its
you, its them, or its us together. If you dont take on the role of facili-
tating clarity about what is most important up front, then you dont
have an engagement that allows you to navigate to that clarity, which
wont allow you to align your actions with delivering what is most
valuable. Otherwise, you run the risk of expending enormous
amounts of effort with very little value.
Steve Lishansky
15
Wright
If I decided to buy into what youve been talking about here to-
dayand it has been extremely interestinghow would I get
compensated for the value of my work, rather than one of the other
less successful ways such as an hourly basis?
Lishansky
There are two critical issues here: your compensation is an evalua-
tion by the person paying you for how valuable you are. Therefore, if
someone doesnt know the value you can deliver theyre liable to try
and find the lowest common denominator form of paying you. This
means the person is saying, Im going to mitigate my risk by paying
you by the hour and Im going to try and come up with a very low
rate. However, if you follow our process and you help somebody get
crystal clear about what theyre really trying to accomplish, it is a
tremendous value for them right from the very beginning about your
engagement with them. That means you are helping them to connect
what theyre asking you for to what supports them and their organi-
zation being more successful. An ability to do that in an efficient and
effective way is already a demonstration of how you can be of value.
The way you get paid for your value is you help the other person who
is going to pay you get clear about what would be valuable to them.
Now, if what theyre asking you for is what theyd really value only
fifteen percent of the time, the obvious situation is eighty-five percent
of the time they dont even know what would be valuable, and so
theyre not likely to pay you for it. If you can get clear and help them
see the value up front, you will distinguish yourself from your compe-
tition. You will also demonstrate your value to them before they even
sign an agreement for work, and you will build a level of trust, re-
spect, collaboration, and communication that leads them to see you
can add enormous value to them and their organization. If they can
see the value of what you do, its easier to get paid for the value you
offer. Otherwise, theyre just seeing you as a service provider, a ven-
dor, one of a faceless mass that they could hire. That hardly
distinguishes you or gets you a premium rate for your services and
more importantly for the value that you provide.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Steve Lishansky whos a leading
executive coach, organizational consultant, author, and respected
speaker. I think he knows what hes talking about when he points to
Masters of Success
16
his three-dimensional effectiveness principles and practices for tal-
ented executives of top companies in our nation, and all over the
world for that matter.
Steve, I really do appreciate this. Ive learned a lot today and I
really want to thank you for taking so much time. I hope that the
people who read this book will take a lot of this information to heart.
I know that even after so many years of listening to executive man-
agement seminars, this is really, really useful information for me
personally. Thank you so much.
Lishansky
David, thank you so much, its been a real pleasure!
Steve Lishansky
17
About The Author
Steve Lishansky is the co-founder and principle of Koanetic Consulting
formerly called Success Dynamicsone of the first executive coaching firms
in the United States, and a leader in the field of executive development, or-
ganizational performance and culture, and building high-value client
relationship skills. He is also the founder and Executive Director of the Ex-
ecutive Coaching Institute (ECI), the oldest coach training organization
dedicated to elevating results by educating top-level executives and coaches
in the principle-based, highly effective work pioneered by Success Dynamics
and Koanetic Consulting. Steve is also a founding member of the innovative
global consulting and executive development consortium, Jellyfish Interna-
tional. Since starting Success Dynamics and Koanetic Consulting in 1992,
after a distinguished twenty-year career founding and running companies,
Steve works with senior leaders and their organizations producing results
through: executive coaching; consulting; customized educational programs
and keynotes; and facilitating executive meetings, retreats and strategic
planning sessions. Steve is a Master Certified Coach, the highest earned des-
ignation with the International Coach Federation (ICF), and a past President
of their largest chapter, ICF-New England. He is the past President of the
New England chapter of the National Speakers Association, the author of
numerous articles on leadership, executive coaching, and building high-value
relationships, and a soon to be published book, co-written with partner Al
Bhatt, The Expertise TrapWhy Being Right Is Insufficient for Being Effec-
tive.
Steve Lishansky
83 Whits End Road
Concord, MA 01742
Phone: 978.369.4525
Email: [email protected]
www.KoaneticConsulting.com

18



19
Chapter Two
KEN BLANCHARD
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Few people have created a positive impact on the day-to-day man-
agement of people and companies more than Dr. Kenneth Blanchard
who is known around the world simply as Ken, a prominent, gregari-
ous, sought after author, speaker, and business consultant. Ken is
universally characterized by friends, colleagues, and clients as one of
the most insightful, powerful, and compassionate men in the business
today.
Kens impact as a writer is far-reaching. His phenomenal best-
selling book, One Minute Manager, co-authored with Spencer John-
son, has sold more than nine million copies worldwide and has been
translated into more than twenty-five languages. Ken is Chairman
and Chief Spiritual Officer of the Ken Blanchard Companies. The
organizations focus is to energize organizations around the world
with customized training in bottom line business strategies that are
based on the simple yet powerful principles inspired by Kens best-
selling books.
Dr. Blanchard, welcome to Masters of Success!
Masters of Success
20
Dr. Ken Blanchard (Blanchard)
Well, its nice to talk to you, David. Its good to be here.
Wright
I must tell you that preparing for your interview took quite a bit
more time than usual. The scope of your lifes work and your busi-
ness, the Ken Blanchard Companies, would make for a dozen
fascinating interviews. Before we dive into the specifics of some of
your projects and strategies, will you give our readers a brief synopsis
of your life, how you came to be the Ken Blanchard that we all know
and respect?
Blanchard
Well, Ill tell you, David, I think life is what happens when you are
planning on doing something else. I forget whose line that was; but I
never intended to do what I have been doing. In fact, all my profes-
sors in college told me I couldnt write. I wanted to do college work,
which I did. They told me, You had better be an administrator. So I
decided I was going to be a Dean of Men, a Dean of Students. I got
provisionally accepted into my masters degree program, and then
provisionally accepted at Cornell, because I never could take any of
those standardized tests.
I took the College Boards four times and finally got 502 in English.
My mind doesnt work. I ended up in a higher university in Athens,
Ohio, in 1966 as Administrative Assistant to the Dean of the Busi-
ness School. When I got there, he said, Ken, I want you to teach a
course. I want all my deans to teach. I had never thought about
teaching because they said I couldnt write and you had to publish.
He put me in the managers department. Ive taken enough bad
courses in my day; I wasnt going to teach one. So I really prepared
and had a wonderful time with the students. I was chosen as one of
the top ten teachers on the campus coming out of the chute. I just had
a marvelous time. A colleague by the name of Paul Hershey was
chairman of the management department, and he wasnt real friendly
to me initially because the Dean had led me into his department. But
I heard he was a great teacher. He taught organizational behavior
and leadership. So I asked him if I could sit in on his course next se-
mester.
Nobody audits my courses, he replied. If you want to take it for
credit, youre welcome. I couldnt believe it. I had a doctorate degree
and he wanted me to take his course for credit. So I signed up. The
Ken Blanchard
21
registrar didnt know what to do with me because I already had a doc-
torate, but I wrote the papers and took the course, and it was great.
In June 1967, Hershey came into my office and said, Ken, Ive
been teaching in this field for ten years. I think Im better than any-
body, but I cant write. Im a nervous wreck, and Id love to write a
textbook with somebody. Would you write one with me?
I said, We ought to be a great team. You cant write and Im not
supposed to, so lets do it! So thus began this great career of writing
and teaching. We wrote a textbook called, Management of Organiza-
tional Behavior Utilizing Human Resources. It just came out with its
eighth edition last year and it sold more than any other textbook in
its field throughout the years. Its been more than thirty-five years
since that book came out.
I quit my administrative job, became a professor, and I worked my
way up through the ranks. I took a sabbatical leave and went to Cali-
fornia for one year twenty-five years ago. I met Spencer Johnson at a
cocktail party. Spencer wrote childrens books; he has a wonderful
series called, Value Tales for Kids: The Value of Courage, The Story of
Jackie Robinson; The Value of Believing In Yourself, The Story Louis
Pasteur. My wife, Margie, met him first and told me, You guys ought
to write a book togethera childrens book for managers, because
they wont read anything else. That was my introduction to Spencer.
So, our book, the One Minute Manager was really a kids book for big
people. That is a long way from saying my career was well planned.
Wright
Ken, what and/or who were your early influences in the areas of
business, leadership, and success? In other words, who shaped you in
your early years?
Blanchard
My father had a great impact on me. He was retired as an Admiral
in the Navy and had a wonderful philosophy. I remember when I was
elected to president of the seventh grade, and I came home all
pumped up. My father said, Son, its great that youre the president
of the seventh grade, but now that you have that leadership position,
dont ever use it. He said, Great leaders are followed because people
respect them and like them, not because they have power. That was
a wonderful lesson for me early on. He was just a great model for me.
I got a lot from him.
Masters of Success
22
Then I had this wonderful opportunity in the mid 1980s to write a
book with Norman Vincent Peale, author of, The Power of Positive
Thinking. I met him when he was eighty-six years old. We were asked
to write a book on ethics together and we wrote, The Power of Ethical
Management: Integrity Pays, You Dont Have to Cheat to Win. It didnt
matter what we were writing together, I learned so much from him;
he just added to what I learned from my mother. When I was born my
mother said, I laughed before I cried, I danced before I walked, and I
smiled before I frowned. So that, on top of Norman Vincent Peale,
really made me I focus on what I could do to train leaders. I asked
questions like: How do you make them positive? How do you make
them realize that its not about themits about whom they are serv-
ing? Its not about their positionits about what they can do to help
other people win. So, Id say my mother and father, and then Norman
Vincent Peale had a tremendous impact on me.
Wright
I can imagine. I read a summery of your undergraduate and
graduate degrees. I assumed you studied business administration,
marketing management, and related courses. Instead, at Cornell, you
studied government and philosophy. You received your masters from
Colgate in sociology and counseling and your Ph.D. from Cornell in
educational administration and leadership. Why did you choose this
course of study? How has it affected your writing and consulting?
Blanchard
Well, again, it wasnt really well planned out. I originally went to
Colgate to get a masters degree in education, because I was going to
be a Dean of Students over men. I had been a government major, and
I was a government major because it was the best department in
Cornell in the Liberal Arts School. It was exciting. We would study
what the people were doing at the league governments.
The Philosophy Department was also great. I just loved the phi-
losophical arguments. I wasnt a great student in terms of grades, but
Im a total learner. I would sit there and listen and I would really
soak it in. When I went over to Colgate and got involved in the educa-
tion courses, they were awfulthey were boring. By the second week,
I was sitting at the bar at the Colgate Inn saying, I cant believe Ive
been here two years for this.
This is just the way the Lord works: sitting next to me in the bar
is a young sociology professor who had just got his Ph.D. at Illinois,
Ken Blanchard
23
and his wife was back packing up. He was staying at the Inn and I
was moaning and groaning about what I was doing. He said to me,
Why dont you come and major with me in sociology? Its really excit-
ing.
I can do that? I asked.
He said, Yes.
I knew they would probably let me do whatever I wanted the first
week. Suddenly, I switched out of education and went with Warren
Ramshaw. He had a tremendous impact on me. He retired a few
years ago as the leading professor at Colgate in the Arts and Sci-
ences, and got me interested in leadership and organizations. Thats
why I got a masters in sociology.
Then the reason I went into educational administration and lead-
ership was because it was a doctoral program I could get into. The
reason for that was I knew the guy heading up the program. He said,
The greatest thing about Cornell is that you will be in a School of
Education. Its not very big, so you dont have to take many education
courses, and you can take stuff all over the place. That was a mar-
velous man by the name of Don McCarty, who ended up going on to
be the Dean of the School of Education, Wisconsin. He had an impact
on my life, but I was always searching around.
My mission statement is, To be a loving teacher and example of
simple truths that help myself and others to awaken to the presence
of God in our lives. The reason I mention God is, I believe the big-
gest addiction in the world is the human ego. Im really into simple
truth, however. I used to tell people I was trying to get the B.S. out of
the behavioral sciences.
Wright
I cant help but think, when you mentioned your father, that he
just bottomed-lined it for you about leadership.
Blanchard
Yes.
Wright
Years ago when I went to a conference in Texas, a man named
Paul Myers said, David, if you think youre a leader and you look
around and no one is following you, youre just out for a walk.
Masters of Success
24
Blanchard
Well, youd get a kick out of this: Im just reaching over to pick up
a picture of Paul Myers on my desk; hes a good friend. We co-founded
the Center for Faith Walk Leadership here where were trying to
challenge and equip people to lead like Jesus. Its non-profit, and I
tell people Im not an evangelist because weve got enough trouble
with the Christians we havewe dont need any more new ones. But,
this is a picture of Paul on top of a mountain, and then another pic-
ture below of him under the sea with stingrays. It says, Attitude is
everything. Whether youre on the top of the mountain or the bottom
of the sea, true happiness is achieved by accepting Gods promises,
and by having a biblically positive frame of mind. Your attitude is
everything. Isnt that something?
Wright
Hes a fine, fine man. He helped me tremendously. In keeping with
the theme of our book, Conversations On Success, I wanted to get a
sense from you about your own success journey. Many people know
you best from the One Minute Manager books you coauthored with
Spencer Johnson. Would you consider these books as a high water
mark for you, or have you defined success for yourself in different
terms?
Blanchard
Well, you know the One Minute Manager was an absurdly success-
ful book. It achieved success so quickly I found I couldnt take credit
for it. So that was when I really got on my own spiritual journey and
started to try to find out what the real meaning of life and success
was. Thats been a wonderful journey for me because I think, David,
the problem with most people is they think their self-worth is a func-
tion of their performance plus the opinion of others. The minute you
define your self-worth like that, every day your self-worth is up for
grabs because your performance is going to fluctuate on a day-to-day
basis. People are fickletheir opinions are going to go up and down.
So, you need to ground your self-worth in the unconditional love God
has ready for us.
That concept grew out of the unbelievable success of the One Min-
ute Manager. When I started to realize where all that came from,
thats how I got involved in the ministry I mentioned. Paul Myers is a
part of it. As I started to read the Bible, I realized that everything Ive
ever written about, or taught, Jesus did. You know, He did it with
Ken Blanchard
25
twelve incompetent guys He hired. The only guy with much education
was Judus, who was His only turnover problem.
Wright
Right.
Blanchard
So it was a really interesting thing. What I see in people is not
only do they think their self-worth is a function of their performance
plus the opinion of others, but they measure their success on the
amount of accumulation of wealth, on recognition, power, and status.
I think those are nice success itemstheres nothing wrong with
those, as long as you dont define your life by them.
What I think is a better focus rather than success is what Bob Bu-
ford, in his book Half Times, calls significancemove from success
to significance.
I think the opposite of accumulation of wealth is generosity. I
wrote a book called, The Generosity Factor with Truett Cathy, foun-
der of Chick-fil-A. He is one of the most generous men Ive ever met in
my life. I thought we needed to have a model of generosity
generosity not only with your treasure, but also your time and talent.
Truett and I added touch as a fourth one.
The opposite of recognition is service. I think you become an adult
when you realize youre here to serve rather than to be served.
Finally, the opposite of power and status is having loving relation-
ships. Mother Theresa is a good example. She couldnt have cared less
about recognition, power, and status because she was focused on gen-
erosity, service, and loving relationships. She did get all of that
earthly stuff such as recognition and status; but if you focus on the
earthly, such as money, recognition, and power, youre never going to
get to significance. I you focus on significance, youll be amazed at
how much success can come your way.
Wright
I spoke with Truett Cathy recently and was impressed by what a
down-to-earth good man he seems to be. He has Chick-fil-A close on
Sundays. When my friends found out I had talked to him, they said,
Boy, he must be a great Christian man, but hes rich. I told them,
Well, to put his faith into perspective, closing on Sunday costs him
$500 million a year. He lives his faith, doesnt he?
Masters of Success
26
Blanchard
Absolutely, but he still outsells everybody else.
Wright
Thats right.
Blanchard
They were recently chosen the number one fast quick service res-
taurant in Los Angeles. They only have five restaurants here and
theyve only been here for a year.
Wright
The simplest market scheme, I told him, tripped me up. I walked
by the first Chick-fil-A I had ever seen, and some girl came out with
chicken stuck on toothpicks and handed me one. I just grabbed it and
ate it and its history from there on.
Blanchard
Yes, I think so. Its really special. It is so important that people
understand generosity, service, and loving relationships because too
many people are running around like a bunch of peacocks. You even
see pastors who ask, How many in your congregation are authors,
how many books have you sold? or, regarding business, Whats your
profit margin? Whats your sales? The reality is, thats all well and
good, but I think what you need to focus on is others. I think if busi-
nesses did that more and we got Wall Street off our backs with all the
short-term evaluation, wed be a lot better off.
Wright
Absolutely. There seems to be a clear theme that winds through
many of your books that have to do with success in business and or-
ganizations and that is how management treats people and how they
feel about their value to a company. Is this an accurate observation?
If so, can you elaborate on it?
Blanchard
Yes, its a very accurate observation. See, I think profit is the
applause you get for taking care of your customers and creating a mo-
tivating environment for your people. Very often people believe
business is only about the bottom line. But no, the bottom line hap-
pens to be the result of creating customers who are raving fans. I
Ken Blanchard
27
described this with Sheldon Bowles in our book. Customers want to
brag about you, and then create an environment where people can be
gung-ho and committed. Youve got to take care of your customers
and your people, and then your cash register is going to go ka-ching.
Then is when you can make some big bucks.
Wright
I noticed that your professional title with the Ken Blanchard
Companies is somewhat unique, Chairman and Chief Spiritual Offi-
cer. What does your title mean to you personally and to your
company? How does it affect the books you choose to write?
Blanchard
I remember having lunch with Max DuPree one time. Hes the leg-
endary Chairman of Herman Miller, Inc. He wrote a wonderful book
called, Leadership is an Art. I asked him, Whats your job?
He said, I basically work in the vision area.
Well, what do you do? I asked.
Im like a third grade teacher, He said, I say our vision and
values over, and over, and over again until people get it right, right,
right.
I decided then I was going to become our Chief Spiritual Officer. I
would be working in the vision, values, and energy part of our busi-
ness. We have about 275 to 300 around the country, in Canada, and
the U.K., and we have partners in about thirty nations. I leave a voice
mail every morning for everybody in the company, and I do three
things regarding that as Chief Spiritual Officer:
1. People tell me what we need to pray for,
2. People tell me about those we need to praiseour unsung
heroes and people like that and,
3. I leave an inspirational morning message every day.
I am really the cheerleaderthe energy bunnyin our company,
and the one who reminds us why were here and what were trying to
do. Our business in the Ken Blanchard Companies is to help people to
lead at a higher level, and to help individuals, and organizations. Our
mission statement is, To unleash the power and potential of people
and organizations for the common good. So if we are going to do that,
weve really got to believe in that. Im working on getting more Chief
Spiritual Officers around the country. I think its a great titlewe
should get more of them.
Masters of Success
28
Wright
So those people for whom you pray, where do you get the names?
Blanchard
The people in the company tell me who needs help, whether its a
spouse who is sick, or kids who are sick, or they are worried about
something. Weve got more than five years of data about the power of
prayer, which is pretty important.
For example, this morning my inspirational message was about
my wife and five members of our company who walked sixty miles
last weekendtwenty miles a day for three daysto raise money for
breast cancer research. It was amazing. I went down and waved them
all in as they came. There was a ceremony where it was announced
they had raised 7.6 million dollars. There were more than three thou-
sand people walkingand a lot of the walkers were dressed in pink
who were cancer victors, people who had overcome cancer. There were
even men who were walking with pictures of their wives who had
died from breast cancer. I thought it was incredible.
There wasnt one mention of it in the major San Diego papers on
Monday. I said, Isnt that just something. I said, We have to be an
island of positive influence because you know all you see in the paper
today is about Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson and Coby Bryant
and this kind of thing, when here you have all these thousands of
people out there walking and trying to make a difference, and nobody
thinks its news. So every morning I pump people up about what
lifes about and about whats going on. Thats what my Chief Spiritual
Officer is about.
Wright
I had the pleasure of reading one of your current releases, The
Leadership Pill.
Blanchard
Yes.
Wright
I must admit that my first thought was how short the book was. I
wondered if I was going to get my moneys worth, which, by the way, I
most certainly did. Many of your books are brief and based on a ficti-
tious story. Most business books in the market today are hundreds of
pages in length and read almost like a textbook. Can you talk a little
Ken Blanchard
29
bit about why you write these short books and about the premise of
The Leadership Pill?
Blanchard
I really got that during my relationship with Spencer Johnson
when we wrote the One Minute Manager. As you know he wrote Who
Moved My Cheese, which was a phenomenal success. He wrote chil-
drens books, and I was a storyteller. As I said earlier, my wife told
me, You guys ought to write a childrens book for managers. They
wont read anything else.
Jesus talked by parable. My favorite books were, Jonathan Living-
stone Seagull, The Littlest Prince, and Og Mandino, the greatest of
them all. These are all great parables. I started writing parables be-
cause people can get into the story and learn the contents of the story
without bringing their judgmental hats into their reading. You write
a regular book and theyll say, Well, where did you get the research?
They get into that judgmental side. Our books get them emotionally
involved and they learn.
The Leadership Pill is a fun story about a pharmaceutical com-
pany convinced they have discovered the secret to leadership and
they can put the ingredients in a pill. When they announce it, the
country goes crazy because everybody knows we need more effective
leaders. When they release it, it outsells Viagra and all those big gray
trucks. The founders of the company start selling off stock and they
call them Pillionaires.
Then along comes this guy who calls himself the effective man-
ager, and he challenges them to a no-pill challenge. If they identify
two non-performing groups, hell take on one and let somebody on the
pill take another one, and he guarantees his group will out-perform
the other group by the end of the year. They agree, but of course, they
give him a drug test every week to make sure hes not sneaking pills
on the side.
I wrote the book with Marc Muchnick who was a young guy in his
early thirties. We did a major study together of what does this inter-
esting Y generationthe young people of todaywant from leaders,
and this is a secret blend that this effective manager in the book uses.
When you think about it, David, this is really powerful in terms of
what people want from a leader. Number one, they want integrity.
Many people have talked about that in the past, but these young peo-
ple will walk if they see people say one thing and do another. A lot of
us walk into the bathroom and out into the halls to talk about it. But
Masters of Success
30
these people will quit. They dont want somebody to say something
and not do it.
The second thing they want is a partnership relationship. They
hate superior/subordinate. I mean, what awful terms those are. Its a
case of the head of the department versus the hired hands. Someone
asks, What do you do? The reply is, Im in supervisionI see things
a lot clearer than these stupid idiots. They want to be treated as
partners. If they can get a financial partnership, that's great. I if they
cant, they really want at least a psychological partnership where
they can bring their brains to work and make decisions.
Then finally, they want affirmation. They not only want to be
caught doing things right, but they want to be affirmed for who they
are. They want to be known as a person, not as a number.
So those are the three ingredients this effective manager in the
story uses. They are wonderful values if you think of them. Rank or-
der values for any organization is number one: integrity. In our
company we call it ethicsour number one value. Number two
value is partnership. Partnership in our companies is relationships.
Number three is affirmationbeing affirmed as a human being. I
think that ties into relationships, too. They are wonderful values that
can drive behavior in a great way.
Wright
I believe most people in todays business culture would agree that
success in business has everything to do with successful leadership.
In The Leadership Pill, you present a simple but profound premise
that being in leadership is not something you do to people; its some-
thing you do with them. At face value, that seems incredibly obvious,
but you must have found in your research and in your observations
that leaders in todays culture do not get this. Would you speak to
that issue?
Blanchard
Yes. I think what often happens is this is the human ego, you
know. There are too many leaders out there who are self-serving.
Theyre not serving leaders. They think the sheep are there for the
benefit of the shepherd. All the power, money, and famous recognition
all reside at the top of the hierarchy. They forget that the real action
in business is not at the top, its in the one-to-one, moment-to-moment
interactions your front line people have with your customers, its how
the phone was answered, how problems are dealt with, and those
Ken Blanchard
31
kinds of things. If you dont think youre doing leadership with them,
rather than to them, after a while they wont take care of your cus-
tomers.
I was at a store recently, its not Nordstroms, where I normally
would go, and I thought of something I had to share with my wife,
Margie. I asked the guy behind the counter in the Mens Wear De-
partment, Can I use your phone?
He said, No, rather emphatically.
I said, Youre kidding me. I can always use the phone at Nord-
stroms.
He said, Look, buddy, they wont let me use the phone here, why
should I let you use the phone?
That is an example of leadership thats done to them not with
them. People want a partnership. People want to be involved in a way
that really makes a difference.
Wright
Dr. Blanchard, the time has flown by and there are so many more
questions Id like to ask you. In conclusion, would you mind sharing
with our readers some closing thoughts on success? If you were men-
toring a small group of men and women, and one of their central goals
was to become successful, what kind of advice would you give them?
Blanchard
I would first of all ask, What are you focused on? As I said ear-
lier, I think if you are focused on success as being accumulation of
money, recognition, power, or status, I think youve got the wrong
target.
What you need to really be focused on is how can you be generous
in the use of your time, your talent, your treasure, and touch. How
can you serve people rather than be served? How can you develop car-
ing, loving relationships with people? My sense is if you will focus on
those things, success in the traditional sense will come to you. But if
you go out and say, Man, Im going to make a fortune, and Im going
to do this, whatever it may be and if you focus on those kinds of
things, you might even get some of those numbers. You become an
adult, however, when you realize you are here to give rather than to
get. Youre here to serve not to be served. I would just say to people,
Life is such a very special occasion. Dont miss it by aiming at a tar-
get that bypasses other people, because were really here to serve
each other. Thats what I would share with people.
Masters of Success
32
Wright
Well, what an enlightening conversation, Dr. Blanchard. I really
want you to know how much I appreciate all the time youve taken
with me for this interview. I know that our readers will learn from
this, and I really appreciate your being with us today.
Blanchard
Well, thank you so much, David. I really enjoyed my time with
you. Youve asked some great questions that made me think. I hope
my answers are helpful to other people because, as I say, life is a spe-
cial occasion.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Dr. Ken Blanchard. He is author
of the phenomenal best selling book, The One Minute Manager. The
fact that hes the Chief Spiritual Officer of his company should give
us all cause to think about how we are leading our companies and
leading our families and leading anything whether it is within church
or civic organizations. I know I will.
Thank you so much, Dr. Blanchard, for being with us today on
Masters of Success.
Blanchard
Good to be with you, David.
Ken Blanchard
33
About Dr. Ken Blanchard
Few people have created more of a positive impact on the day-to-day
management of people and companies than Dr. Kenneth Blanchard,
who is known around the world simply as Ken. When Ken speaks,
he speaks from the heart with warmth and humor. His unique gift is
to speak to an audience and communicate with each individual as if
they were alone and talking one-on-one. He is a polished storyteller
with a knack for making the seemingly complex easy to understand.
Ken has been a guest on a number of national television programs,
including Good Morning America and The Today Show, and has been
featured in Time, People, U.S. News & World Report, and a host of
other popular publications. He earned his bachelor's degree in gov-
ernment and philosophy from Cornell University, his master's degree
in sociology and counseling from Colgate University, and his Ph.D. in
educational administration and leadership from Cornell University.

Dr. Ken Blanchard
The Ken Blanchard Companies
125 State Place
Escondido, California 92029
Phone: 800.728.6000
Fax: 760.489.8407
www.blanchardtraining.com

34


35
Chapter Three
ED KUGLER
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Ed Kugler. Ed is a successful change
leader whose work involves both personal and organizational change.
The CEO of a $500 million company once named Ed the Senior Vice
President of Truth. He is a former Fortune 50 executive, U.S. Marine
sniper, and a guy who has never stopped learning from his unique life
experiences. He climbed the corporate ladder after his two years in
the Vietnam War starting as a mechanic, then truck driver and then,
without a college degree, he rose to be a worldwide Vice President for
Compaq Computer. He is the author of Dead CenterA Marine
Snipers Two-Year Odyssey in the Vietnam War as well as his first
novel, The Well HouseA Story of Love, Peace, War and Forever. Ed
is President and OEO (Only Executive Officer, so named by his wife),
of his own company and is a popular inspirational speaker who helps
people and organizations make real changes that matter.
Ed, welcome to our program this morning.
Ed Kugler (Kugler)
Thank you, Im glad to be here.
Masters of Success
36
Wright
You have a unique background; will you tell us about being named
Senior Vice President of Truth?
Kugler
I sure can. I signed on to help a $500 million dollar tech company.
The CEO hired me on a one-year contract to be the Vice President of
Distribution. Then he went overseas on a visit to his branches and
was there for the next three weeks. His orders were that while he was
gone I should come up with a plan of what we should do with distri-
bution.
I spent the next three weeks with people all over the company and
came to the realization that they did not need a VP of Distribution.
They built everything to order and shipped Fed Ex and UPS, why
would they need a VP of Distribution? So when the CEO returned on
Monday I sat down with him and explained to him what I found. I
said, Truth is, you dont need a VP of Distribution. Im not sure why
you hired me.
He sat there for a minute then looked up and said, You know
what? Im going to have a sales meeting in Cleveland and youre going
to get on the plane with me tomorrow morning and go up there with
me.
I met him at the airport at zero dark early and we flew to Cleve-
land from Houston without a word on my being the unneeded VP of
Distribution. The limo picks us up and whisks us off to the meeting.
We go in and he introduces me to seventy-five salesmen as his new
Senior Vice President of Truth. He said, This guy had the guts to tell
me the truth that I didnt need a VP of Distribution. But, by God, I do
need people with the guts to tell me the truth. So I became his right
hand man for a year and coached him through a lot of problems.
Wright
Thats pretty interesting. Telling the truth is certainly the founda-
tion of what you do today. You say your philosophy is NoMoreBS.
Can you explain to our readers where that philosophy came from?
Kugler
I sure can. The origin of NoMoreBS started in Vietnam but didnt
crystallize for me for a few years. The experience that was literally
burned into my soul came from an event I document in my book Dead
Center. I was a young nineteen-year-old Marine sniper going on a
Ed Kugler
37
night operation with a couple of companies of Marine grunts
infantry. We were going down to a difficult area in Quang Tri Prov-
ince known by the French as the Street Without Joy. The Marine
grunts at that time carried the M-14 rifle and were experts in assem-
bling, disassembling, and fixing it if necessary. I might also add the
M-14 was a proven commodity and worked in all conditions.
That afternoon, a couple of hours before we were to take off, the
higher ups were forcedhistory has shownby McNamara and his
Whiz Kids, to roll out the new M-16 to the troops on a very aggres-
sive timetable. There was a lot of political debate about the weapon
and its readiness to see combat and there has been a lot written
about this since then, especially in the last fifteen years, but the fact
is it wasnt ready for combat. Not only was the weapon not ready, but
they took Marines who were highly trained and familiar with the M-
14, stripped it from them, gave them two hours of training and prac-
tice, and wished them well. As they say, the rest is history. We were
ambushed about midnight and fought all night, were overrun for a
period of time, and when daylight took over it was quite a sight.
As the choppers came in for the wounded, some others and I had
the task of gathering up the dead and putting them in body bags for
the ride home to their loved ones. As I recall, and as I said, this story
is described in more detail in Dead Center. We put some thirty-five
dead Marines in body bags and more than half of them had their M-
16s apart in their hands. The piece-of-crap weapon that was forced
down our throats didnt work. That was the case for many years
throughout Vietnam, all because of faulty leadership and politics.
Ive seen the exact same thing repeated throughout my business
career. Its just that in business these decisions dont kill people they
just kill your career and mess your up your family as they make tran-
sition after transition, change upon change, often for no other reason
than the whim of a so-called leader. As I saw more and more of this
type of thing, it all came together into what I now call NoMoreBS.
Over the years this concept has crystallized into a workable formula
for success. It starts with looking in the mirror and being honest
about who we really are and where we really are.
Wright
How do CEOs and business leaders respond to a message like
that?
Masters of Success
38
Kugler
The answer is indicative of the problemthe higher you get in the
organization, the less they respond to it. Hierarchy in most organiza-
tions today consists of nothing more than a good ole boys club where
you take care of me and I take care of you.
When I speak to an organization I become a folk hero with middle
management and down. They agree and tell me I am absolutely right.
But my calculation is if we did a Pareto
1
on it only about probably
twenty percent of the leaders will really embrace that message. I had
a CEO I did a turn-around for who actually hired me because of my
NoMoreBS philosophy. He was pumped after reading my website and
handed me the keys to his biggest operation. He supported me out of
the blocks and it was a sweet deal. I thought maybe I had a guy who
really did get it. We accomplished all that we agreed to for the par-
ticular part of his business he brought me in to fix and even got the
Teamsters out of his organization. We did this all in ten months.
Wed made remarkable changes by going in the trenches and
working with the people and letting them do it. But when I sat down
with himthe CEO who hired melooked him in the eye and told
him to sustain it and go to the next level, he said he would have to
address some serious problems with his headquarters support people
who sat next to him and fed him BS all day; that those were sacred
cows and he wasnt about to address it.
The problem he had was that his problems were always out
there, therefore that very thought was a problem. I looked him in the
eye and told him he was the major part of the problem. He doesnt
even speak to me today because I confronted him. He leads a com-
pany with more than fifty weeks of inventory in a business that
should have maybe twelve but he is the only one who can be right. So,
a year from now hell either have more consultants in to fix the re-
sults of his lack of seeing the problem clearly or hell be outthe
company may go under and who pays the price? The people in the
organization will pay the price for these leadership charades. The
people who are just trying to make a living and raise their families
will pay the price.

1
In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to de-
scribe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent
of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth.

Ed Kugler
39
Leadership today is a tragedy just like back in Vietnam and the
leaders rarely pay the price of their debacles. Leaders today rarely
want to hear the truth in spite of their insistence on their being open
and approachable.
Wright
Whats the answer for people out there who want to be successful?
Kugler
There are two parts to the answer. If you are a leader, then you
need to seek and receive feedback. Today I think people as a whole
are forced into what I call situational truth-telling. With the leader-
ship we currently have in most organizations people end up telling
leaders what they want to hear. I was turning around the debacle of a
change project at Pepsi a few years back and we had a disaster re-
garding a hand-held computer rollout. When asked how this could
happen, the guy sitting in the corner on the floorhe was a coder
said, Its simplepain avoidance. I think that said it all. I think
about eighty percent of the people fall in that category because they
are forced there. I think about ten percent of the people like me will
tell you how they see it and another ten percent are liars just be-
cause, I guess.
A leaders job is to create an environment where you move that ten
percent of truth-tellers to forty or fifty percent or more. Leaders cre-
ate a safe environment where it is okay to tell the truth. I teach this
and more as part of my change skills in a workshop entitled How to
Lead Your Organization for a Change. We all need to learn this stuff.
Its not complicated and certainly not rocket science but it is hard to
do every day because it is so foreign to most people, especially todays
leaders. This phenomenon is why the Enrons and WorldComs
happen. Look at all the people and families impacted by this incredi-
ble lack of leadership. So, leaders in such a position have to create
safe environments in their organizations.
Now the second part of the problem: When youre not the leader
but you work in one of these places its a much tougher challenge.
I think we have to start by having integrity. In the outside world
of government we must start by holding our leaders accountable by
our votes and our letters and our e-mails. Lets bring down the serv-
ers with our e-mails to these folks who are up there taking care of
everyone else but us. People need to read about whats happening and
be informed, not just in politics and government, but to study what
Masters of Success
40
happened in situations like Enron. Understand for yourself the pain
these leaders caused to the many, many people involved. I dont know
if well ever fully understand it but we can try. Then and only then
will we start gaining the courage to do whats right and speak up.
Its been said that all we need for evil to conquer is for good men
and women to remain silent. I saw this phenomenon first-hand at
Compaq. Its one of the reasons I walked out after just three years. I
surprised my wife by leaving when I did. She knew I worked my
whole life with the goal of making it to the senior level of a Fortune
50 and achieve this with no college degree. But when I got thereto
that levelit was disgusting and disheartening to say the least. It
really was a good ole boys club and what mattered most was keeping
the peace with your peers, sucking up to those above you, and making
the numbers every quarter. That was it! And it was a driven by stock
options and the perceived opportunity to become rich. I saw good peo-
plepeople in my church and good citizensturn their heads with
the admonition, Ed come on, cant you be quiet about these things
until our options vest, then we wont care anymore? Its happening
across America for sure, every day. I think that, until we as individu-
als make a decision to live our lives with real integrity, not
situational integrity, we are going to see this get worse.
I had a speech out here in Montana the other day and got into a
discussion about leadership; of course, politics came up. I find that
people are sick of the Democrats and the Republicans because neither
one will stand up and vote for usthe people who elected them. They
vote straight party line to keep the peace which just serves the good
ole boys club I have been describing. I think we have to tap into our
passion on this one. We have to stand up and be counted and do what
Gandhi says and, Be the change we wish to see in the world. We
have to stop the BS and make a stand if we are to change this mess. I
am a former alcoholic and, quite frankly until I looked in the mirror
and said Im a drunk, I was not able to overcome that. In the same
way we cant change things we do not acknowledge. I think as indi-
viduals we have to be accountable to ourselves to see we live that way
and then maybe other people will see it and then they will do the
same which will grow a better tomorrow in our world.
Wright
I see what you mean and it is difficult today. What can the aver-
age worker both male and female do out there with your philosophy?
Ed Kugler
41
Kugler
First they have to decide what they want out of life. It all begins
with us as individualswe cant change anyone else. I cant change
my spouse, I cant change anybody but I can be an example of change.
Quoting Gandhi again, he said, Be the change you want to see in the
world. The problem is, so many of us go around pointing to all the
problems out there: Our boss should do this or our spouse should do
that and the government is the problem. Those thoughts are the prob-
lem. We have to work within our own circles of influence and take
personal responsibility for a change. It all starts when we stop the BS
and be honest with ourselves. Make a decision to be a person of integ-
rity. Be a person others look up towho is a leader. We all have to
start by leading our own lives.
Leaders have followers. People follow you because you engage
their whole person. You engage their head, their heart, and their
hands. I teach this in detail in my workshop. It is normal for organi-
zations today to engage peoples headstheir knowledge, and their
handstheir skills; but engaging their heart is a rarity today. You
can hire these first two traits but you must inspire their hearts to get
to their real passion.
To make a difference today, men and women need to tap into their
own hearts, their own passions, and demand more from their leaders
by becoming people of integrity.
Wright
If one is to become successful, it would seem to me that they would
have to define success to know whether or not they achieved what
they set out to do.
Kugler
Youre right David, success means different things do different
people.
Wright
Could you share with our readers how you define success?
Kugler
To me success is reaching whatever goals you set for yourself,
provided those goals are for the good of the whole. I like to look at
things from the standpoint that may sound cornythe Three Mus-
keteers. Their motto was, All for one and one for all. I think success
Masters of Success
42
has to be for the good of the wholeit isnt singular. I try to teach my
kids, telling them, I dont care if you become a carpenter or whether
you become a doctor. I just want you to become a productive member
of society where youre giving back and treating people with love.
Success to me is not only a destinationit is also a journey. None of
us know how long we have left on this earth. Were all terminal. We
need to live every day as if its our last and still plan like well live
forever.
Wright
What steps do you recommend for people who have goals and
dreams and want to reach them as you have?
Kugler
For me there are just a couple of steps and then a lot of commit-
ment, resilience, and work. It all starts by figuring out what problem
youre trying to solve. What journey are you heading out on and why?
Do you want to get married, be president, or lose weight? Decide
where you want to go and then make sure you are solving the right
problem.
Then you decide what success will look like. That means defining
in detail what your vision is of your new tomorrow. When youve done
that then you must be honestNoMoreBS again about where you
are. Then and only then do you know how far the gap isthe leap
between today and tomorrow. If youre trying to lose ten pounds, that
may be relatively easy but one hundred pounds will be much more
difficult.
There were a lot of things I wanted out of life but when I drank as
I used to, you can imagine I didnt have a lot of focus. In that condi-
tion I wasnt going anywhere but I was sure going fast. My first step
was deciding I had to be different. My second step was deciding how I
wanted to be and then where I was todaya drunkthen I could
make a start on reaching my goal. I had a starting off point. When
you know how far the gap from today to tomorrow is, you begin to see
what its going to take to cross that chasm. Then you have to figure
out the pain and the cost of making the change. What is it going to
take to reach your level of success and are you willing to pay the
price?
One of the problems todayand it includes the person looking
back in the mirror at youis the people wont pay the price if they
cant see the promise. A mentor of mine, Jim Rohn, taught me this
Ed Kugler
43
through his books and tapes years ago and I have never forgotten it.
We must decide the price is worth it and then well have the commit-
ment to make it.
A great example of change comes from one of my former snipers.
He is a guy who was actually raised in Hells Angels, I wrote about
him in Dead Center. He came home from Vietnam and spent years
riding with them without going through all that was involved in a
lifestyle that was going to get him killed. Yet today he lives on a
ranch in Texas with his Christian wife (his fourth wife but theyve
been married for more than seventeen years), he raises expensive
horses, and has a cement contracting business.
How did he get there? He decided he wanted something better in
life, inspired, he says, by the example of his brother Marine sniper
he wanted a stable life. He made a decision about what he wanted,
broke free of the Hells Angels, met his current wife, married and
started a business. He realized new friends would be required. His
wife liked horses so he got involved in order to meet new folks. He
realized the price for him would not just be new friends but a com-
plete break with the past. They moved across the country. He
somehow knew hed have to break from the old ways and establish
new ones. He is doing great today and I am confident the changes he
made will take him to even greater success. He is an unlikely success
story such as others youd read about in my book. He was quite a
character but he defined a better tomorrow for himself and went out
and got it.
Wright
What does defining what success looks like mean to you?
Kugler
I just talked from a personal point of view. Let me answer this
from an organizational point of view. When I engage in a consulting
project there are two questions I must answer to be successful. The
first is what problem are you trying to solve? and the second is what
you just asked, what will success look like when I solve it?
I can best answer this with a story from one engagement I experi-
enced. An international client once flew me to Mexico to help change
the logistics organization of their six billion dollar company. It was a
two-day gig to simply meet and assess if there was a match before
signing on. We spent the first day and a half watching dog and pony
shows of what was happening and what everyone was doing and how
Masters of Success
44
this business was different than all the others I had seen. The VP
who invited me was becoming frustrated with my questions. I was
asking questions like, What problem are you trying to solve and
what will success look like when we do? He was coming back each
time with a very emphatic, I want to fundamentally change the way
we do logistics. He kept asking me if I could do for him what I had
done for Compaq. I really didnt know since I didnt know what spe-
cific problem he was trying to solve and therefore couldnt define
what success looked like.
I finally said to him, If I figure out how to deliver this cement
with helicopters it would fundamentally change the way you did lo-
gistics but so what?
That got his attention. He was about to throw me out when I
asked, What will you get fired for?
That question brought a fiery, If I dont take two dollars a ton out
of our costs I will be fired! His fist thundered to the table.
I was then able to say, That is the problem you are trying to solve
and what success will look like.
I didnt get the business but that was okay. Defining success is
painting a vivid picture of the results your change will bring about; it
is painting a picture that will make people want to cross the chasm of
change and pay the price we talked about before.
Wright
So, once we know where we want to go, what do we do next?
Kugler
When we know where were headed we first look in the mirror so
we know where we are starting the journey. Then we make a com-
mitment by breaking with the past and committing to the journey
thats the price we pay. Then we decide the action steps that it will
takewhat steps we must take to get where we are headed. The key
here is breaking old habits and making new ones. It is about behavior
change one decision at a time. Your changes will come down to this
simple concept: What we do every day is what we believe; all the rest is
just talk. This is where you have to realize if it is to be its up to me.
There are no magic pills or someone to do it for you. To change, you
gotta change.
Ed Kugler
45
Wright
You said an interesting thing, What we do every day is what we
believe, all the rest is just talk. Will you explain that to us?
Kugler
I sure can. It really comes to the forefront at church. I happen to
be a Christian and that was a major changeI was once an atheist.
This statement what you do every day is what you believe, all the
rest is just talk makes you confront your own behavior and beliefs.
In the Christian sense it makes you confront your Christianity. It also
encompasses my philosophy of NoMoreBS. Think of it this way: You
go to church on Sunday and have your church face on. We all do,
and then you have to go back out in the world and either behave as
you have committed to behave by your words and actions and have
been taught, or you behave the way whatever is inside of you comes
out. It is about words and deedsdo they match? So when I say
what we do every day, I mean our actions. When I say what we do
every day is what we believe, I mean our actions reflect what we
really believe, not what we say.
When you put it all together it reads, "What you do every day is
what you believe, all the rest is just talk, and it means that our ac-
tions are what people really believe because our actions reflect our
true nature. So our wordswhat we saymust match our deeds
what we door we dont have integrity. This is always important but
more so during times of change. People wont follow leaders across the
difficult chasm of changethrough all the whitewaterunless they
are people of integrity.
Wright
What changes have you endured or perhaps made in your life that
might be of value to others?
Kugler
The first major change was in Marine Corp boot camp, Parris Is-
land. Essentially four women raised me. I did have a father and a
mother, as they say a nuclear family, back in the fifties and sixties.
I graduated high school in the early sixties. My father was a truck
driver who then started a business from that and I really didnt see
much of him at all. I had a grandmother on his side who lived with us
and a sister and an aunt, and of course Mom. Theyd call it a dysfunc-
tional family today but I really didnt know that at the time. So I was
Masters of Success
46
raised by these four great women who, I found out later, hadnt ade-
quately prepared me for Parris Island.
Wright
Right. I had the same problemI know exactly what youre talk-
ing about.
Kugler
When I hit boot camp I found out I was no longer allowed to eat
just whatever I wantedI got a rude awakeningliterally. I tell
about this quite honestly in the beginning of Dead Center. I never re-
alized this until later; I had never really had to do much of anything
in my life and wasnt ready for being a Marine although had I wanted
to be one since fifth grade. I disobeyed an order, got locked up, ran
away and a mean old grizzled drill instructor changed my life. When I
ran away I was gone for three days without food and I hid in the
swamp. Eventually the MPs picked me up and I was, quite frankly, a
mess. I had scorpion bitesyou name it. But this tough World War II
Marine, who I thought was going to beat the crap out of me (and he
did slap me around a little bit), took me in his office, looked me
square in the eyes and said, Kid, if you can do what you just did and
not eat for three days and hang out there in the swamp like you have,
the rest of this is easy; because you have to understand its all in your
head.
I made a significant change right at that point, on the spot. That
was the first time I felt like someone cared. He believed in me and in
what I could do. He treated me as an equal. I changed and left know-
ing that the battle in life is between my ears.
The second major change I experienced was facing my own alco-
holism. My wife was a saint and worked with me for over five years.
Then one day she had just had it with me and made it plain, Its me
or the drinking. It was only then, faced with a crisis, that I could get
up the courage to look in the mirror and begin the change.
It was also during these two events that I learned significant
change happens around events like marriage, birth, death, and crisis.
People and organizations change eighty percent of the time around
events and crisis or catastrophe.
The third significant event was going from atheist to Christian.
Thats a bit of a long story and I am not here to preach religion but it
was a significant change for me. It impacted the quality of the rest of
my life. It was then I began to understand that change also comes
Ed Kugler
47
from inspiration. I reasoned that change happens for one of two rea-
sons: inspiration or desperation. People change as a result of either
the pursuit of opportunity, inspiration, or from reaction to events,
desperation, crisis, or catastrophe. I also realized there is no such
thing as organizational change; there is only people change, because
organizations are simply groups of people together for a common pur-
pose.
We as human beings are blessed with the power of choice. That is
the one thing that separates man from animalpower of choice. We
have to be honest with ourselves and make choices that will take us
to where we want to be. The key to your better future is you. Its not
the government, its not your wife, its not your bossits you. We all
need support but if were going to be successful and going to do any-
thing special we need to make good choices. We must choose to be all
we can be and change for the betterit is lifes way. Look around at
nature for our living example. Mankind is the only living thing that
can choose to be less than they were designed to be. It is the power of
choice and it works both ways.
Wright
I understand that people must change but is there one key to
changing an organization?
Kugler
Actually there is and that key is the same key to changing our-
selvesleadership. To change ourselves, each of us must be a leader
of ourselves. We must be able to overcome our own habits, and over-
come our negative feelings and practices, and build new ones
reflecting our future. We must lead ourselves. In changing organiza-
tions the person who is highest and in charge of the part of the
organization being targeted for change must provide the unwavering
leadership necessary to drive the change. That lead individual is the
single biggest key to change. They must decide the problem they are
solving, what success will look like, assess the gap, and understand
and feel the pain the change will wreak upon the organization. Then
and only then are they ready to make the decision to act.
Part of that decision must be that when their best Lieutenant
stands in the way of the change, after all due diligence to get them on
board, they will fire that person for the sake of the change. If they are
unwilling to do that or face it by saying it wont happen then they
shouldnt go forward with the change in the first place.
Masters of Success
48
Leadership is the key to success in driving change whether it is
personal or organizational. I have seen this play out time and again.
Thats why more than eighty percent of change projects fail. I saw it
when I was at Pepsi. We had a great CEO who tried a colossal change
project involving top consultants and a few hundred million dollars. It
all went up in smoke because the so-called leaders surrounding him
told him what he wanted to hear and ran the organization the way it
had always been run, and the change died. It was a shame. Its about
the leadership. While people believed in the CEO, the leaders under
him did not have a safe environment and people wouldnt come for-
ward and tell the truth.
Wright
When I can consider your unique background and all the successes
Im aware of in your life today, Im really interested in what your
goals are at this point and what this unique journey youve been on
has meant to you.
Kugler
It really means everything. It started with a great wife who was
looking to marry anyone but someone like me. Ive learned along the
way that things happen for a reason and people come into our life for
a reason; its just a question of whether we will recognize the oppor-
tunity or not. In this case I did and convinced her to marry me. To
marry her I had to agree to work, which I had no intention of doing
but figured Id better if I was going to have a life with her. She was
dating a guy going to MIT and I convinced her that while I had no
idea what I was going to be doing it would be a lot more fun than be-
ing married to an MIT grad.
Wright
In another words youre a smooth talker.
Kugler
Apparently. But as I look back now after a lifetime of changes it
was well worth it. Ive been married for over thirty-six years to the
same woman! I have three great kids and currently have two grand-
kids with more on the way. Family is what I am most proud of.
I have been blessed with an array of interesting experiences. My
story includes life growing up in a town of seventy-five, being a Ma-
rine sniper, a small business owner, race track owner, mechanic,
Ed Kugler
49
truck driver, several corporate jobs, and being a VP of the fastest
growing company in the world at the time. Ive been lucky in that re-
spect and Ive been blessed to have a wife who coached me to learn
from all of them. I didnt have the advantage of a college education
but I read a book a week and never stopped learning.
I have much more I want to do at this point in my life. My passion
is helping people. My passion is writing and speaking and making a
difference. I now am fulfilled helping people and organizations make
real change that matters.
To make the real change that matters in this life requires leader-
ship. We must lead ourselves and our organizations whether they are
large or small. To do that requires starting with yourselflooking in
the mirror and admitting where you are is a prerequisite to getting
where you want to go. I want to help as many people as I can stop the
BS in their lives and others lives so they can move forward and pre-
vent some of the personal disasters like the M-16 deaths and
floundering change projects that disrupt careers and families
throughout our working world.
I dont know what impact I can have but I get pumped up trying. I
grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, disenfranchised from the
mainstream, and I want to give a voice to those folks who dont have
college degrees and who dont necessarily march to the same drum-
mer the masses march to. We need to be about inclusion not
exclusion. When I lived in Houston they were building entire devel-
opments with big brick walls around them that were filled with kids
pressured into honors classes and cheerleading schools. What in the
world is this all about but BS? I am for less BS and making a differ-
ence during the rest of my lifes journey. I am in the business of
hopehope for a better tomorrow.
Wright
What an interesting conversation, Ed, its always great to talk
with you, but more than anything, Im awed by all of your experiences
and the way you have been able to use them later on in life.
Today we have been talking with Ed Kugler, who is a former me-
chanic, truck driver, small business owner, corporate executive,
Marine sniper, and a guy who has never stopped learning, as we have
found out today from his unique experiences. Hes the President and
OEO (Only Executive Officer) in his own company. Hes also a popu-
lar inspirational speaker who helps people and organizations make
real change that, in the final analysis, matters.
Masters of Success
50
Ed, thank you so much for being with us today.
Kugler
Thank you. Its always my pleasure.



Ed Kugler
51
About Ed Kugler
Ed Kugler is one of Americas leading change agents. A former Ma-
rine Sniper with two tours in the Vietnam War, he worked for Pepsi
and Frito Lay, and climbed the corporate ladder to become VP
Worldwide Logistics for Compaq Computer. He is the author of four
books. Today he runs his own company from his home in Big Arm,
Montana. He is married (thirty-six years and countingto the same
woman) and has three children and two grandchildren.

Ed Kugler
PO Box 190
Big Arm, MT 59910-0190
Phone: 866.725.5506
Fax: 866.422.2895
Email: [email protected]
www.nomorebs.com
www.edkugler.com

52


53
Chapter Four
MEL H. ABRAHAM, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Mel H. Abraham. Mel is a highly
sought after expert. Hes a CPA, and a very successful entrepreneur,
with multiple business endeavors. Regularly called upon as a forensic
expert in financial and valuation issues, he is also a nationally recog-
nized and award winning speaker. Mels two-fold forte is in providing
strategies for financial risk management and personal physical threat
management and self-protection.
In the personal protection and financial realm, he is the creator of
the much in demand presentation, Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
, Safety
and Success Strategies for an Unsafe World. He has received numer-
ous speaking awards and authored numerous books and articles. His
authoritative book Valuation Issues and Case Law Update, a refer-
ence guide, has just been released in a fifth edition. Recently he was
co-author of the business valuation industrys best selling book, Fi-
nancial Valuation Applications and Models, released by John Wiley
and Sons Inc. Two additional books will be released by mid 2005, A
Healthier You, with Deepak Chopra and Billy Blanks, and Valuing
Family Limited Partnerships.
Masters of Success
54
He combines his background as a forensic accountant, business
valuation expert and entrepreneur with his experience as a consult-
ant to law enforcement agencies, corporations, and individuals. He
brings extensive experience that marries personal safety, protection,
and violence avoidance with corporate fraud, identity theft, embez-
zlement, and other financial crimes.
Mels unique background gives him the perspective to understand
the underlying causes and predictors of the threats that put your per-
son, property and business at risk.
Mel, welcome to Masters of Success.
Mel H. Abraham (Abraham)
Thank you for having me.
Wright
What is Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
?
Abraham
Its a program that I developed based on my years of experience
working as a consultant, an entrepreneur, and as a forensic CPA. It is
meant to focus on various systems and strategies to assist individu-
als, business, families in their creation, retention and protection of
their wealth and person as they live their lives. Bulletproof Bounda-
ries
TM
, is a risk awareness and management system that results a far
greater protection of your physical self, including financial, business,
and corporate wealth from the numerous, numerous risks that per-
meate our society today.
Wright
Why is this so important to our success?
Abraham
Consider this: never before have we lived in a time where there
are so many adversarial forces that threaten our everyday existence.
They range from identity theft, and Internet scams, to corporate cor-
ruption, and property crimes. Our financial and personal security is
constantly at risk. When you see the statistics and the magnitude of
the occurrences of crimes such as these you will see that typically a
U.S. organization loses up to six percent of its annual revenue to
fraud each year. When you compare that six percent to the gross do-
mestic product for 2003 thats in excess of six hundred billion dollars
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
55
in losses in a year. The median loss for most organizations is fifty-six
thousand dollars a year and for other small businesses it can exceed
one hundred thousand dollars a year.
Wright
Unbelievable. You state that all occupational fraud schemes have
four key elements in common. Would you share those elements with
our readers?
Abraham
Yes. Lets first define occupational fraud. Occupational fraud is de-
fined as the use of ones occupation for personal enrichment through
the deliberate misuse or misapplication of an organizations resources
or assets. In other words, it is based on taking advantage of the rela-
tionship between an individual and an organization. The four
elements that are typically associated with this type of fraud are:
1. Its clandestine in a sense that its secretive and cloaked,
2. It violates the perpetrators (the person whos committing the
crime) fiduciary duty to the organization. So the individual is
taking advantage of the relationship of the organization,
3. It is a fraud committed for the purpose of direct or indirect fi-
nancial benefit of the perpetrator themselves, and
4. It typically costs the organization either revenues, assets, or
some sort of reserves.
Wright
You also say that all occupational frauds fall into one of three ma-
jor categories. So how would we define those?
Abraham
There are three primary categories that we typically see:
asset misappropriation,
corruption, and
fraudulent statements.
Lets look at those for a moment. Misappropriations typically in-
volve the theft or misuse of an organizations assets. The crimes that
will fall under this category include skimming of revenues, stealing
inventory, or payroll fraud.
Corruption is the wrongful use of influence in a business transac-
tion to achieve some sort of benefit for the perpetrator or someone
else. Its typically contrary to their fiduciary duty to the employer or
Masters of Success
56
the rights of some other party. A typical crime such as this would
include kick-backs, or those types of situations that we have been see-
ing a lot of in the press latelyconflicts of interest.
Fraudulent statements typically involve the falsification of finan-
cial statements by over-statingrevenue, or understating liabilities or
expenses, depending on what the desired result or goal is. Once
again, we as a society have experienced an increasing occurrence of
these types of events and the resulting shareholder lawsuits. As a
society, we have entered into an era where, because of events like
WorldCom, Enron and even Krispy Kreme, we have cause to recon-
sider the credibility and dependability of the very pillars of our
economy. The financial reporting mechanism has failed miserably in
providing the needed comfort levels from an investing publics view.
Wright
What other types of risks are you talking about?
Abraham
There are other risks that impact us as individuals, as family
members, as a society, and as businesses. They range from check
fraud, to credit card fraud, to identity theft, as well as other types of
frauds, crimes, or scams. Fraudulent insurance claims come into play
here, so there are a whole variety of different types of fraud or theft
that are committed on a regular and daily basis.
Wright
These things really happen then?
Abraham
Actually the statistics are staggering. Its mind boggling to realize
how much of this is going on around us without us realizing it. For
instance, take a look at check fraud. The Office of the Comptroller of
the Currency estimates that more than 1.2 million fraudulent checks
are written every day. Break that down and thats thirteen fraudu-
lent checks written per second of every day. And the losses are going
to exceed twenty billion dollars. Then there is identity theft for in-
stance, which is probably the fastest growing crime that were facing
today. The Wall Street Journal recently reported that 700,000
Americans have been victims of identity theft and that has an
accumulated cost of five billion dollars. Now that is a small cost when
compared to check fraud, but identity theft is growing extremely fast.
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
57
What many dont realize is how far reaching the impact of identity
theft can be, both from a financial perspective and a psychological
perspective.
I myself was victimized just this past year. Someone had fraudu-
lently changed the addresses on my credit cards. It is not clear as of
yet how it came about, but because of the strategies of Bulletproof
Boundaries
TM
we were able to catch it before any damage was done.
We caught it, we shut it down and there was no financial loss, but
there was still time involved. Some estimates say that the typical vic-
tim of identity theft can assume that it will take upwards of two
hundred hours of time to reverse all of the problems caused by an
identity theft. I have known some instances where it took almost four
years to unravel the loss of their identity
One of the oldest crimes that is still going strong today is embez-
zlement. For the past twenty-five years KPMG, an international
accounting firm, has prepared an annual survey of companies around
the United States that asked them to rank the crimes that hurt the
company the most both internally and externally. They didnt ask
about the dollars that were lost, but just the ranking of the crimes.
Since the survey began twenty-five years ago, embezzlement has
ranked number one among all these companies. Check fraud, inciden-
tally, didnt make the list until about ten years ago, when it ranked
ninth. To give you an idea of how fast it is moving, ten years ago it
ranked ninth, today check fraud ranks number two, right behind em-
bezzlement.
The last category would be counterfeiting. Counterfeiting corpo-
rate checks is something that has existed since the beginning of time,
it seems. And now with all of the technology that exists today with
desktop publishing, color printers, digitized printing and color copi-
ers, it is far easier to replicate checks than it was in the past. We can
purchase blank check stock on the Internet. Using these other techno-
logical tools, we can replicate payroll checks, accounts payable checks,
refund checks, cashier checkstheres a variety of ways to do it that
didnt exist years ago.
Wright
What does Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
entail?
Masters of Success
58
Abraham
It is a system, process, and mindset that is meant to raise the level
of awareness of the various threats to our person and family as well
as to our business and wealth.
Focusing on the financial and business segment (there is a sepa-
rate program for the personal and family protection segment), we look
at a variety of factors and elements. On a very basic level it entails a
number of objectives with a much more detailed set of strategies and
tasks underneath each objective. We will only discuss the objective at
a broad level here.
Much like any risk, the first step in eliminating it is to gain an ac-
knowledgement that you, your business, and your family are exposed
to financial crimes. Unfortunately, too many of us try to go through
life sitting back thinking that, its not going to happen to me, itll
happen to my neighbor, or, itll happen down the street, itll happen
in the next town, but not to me. Regrettably, this is happening all
over the place, in all types of communities, by all types of people and
through all types of means. It truly does not matter where you live,
what you do, or how you do it, everyone has exposure. The sooner we
accept this exposure and accept the responsibility to eradicate it, the
sooner we will find ourselves living a life of abundance that has a veil
of protection and confidence because we have taken precautions and
are not susceptible to these crimes.
The second step is to understand and establish a level of financial
literacy and understanding of financial matters, to understand what
the impact is, and how to control and identify these things.
The third step is to set a plan in placea control mechanismto
achieve better financial literacy, wealth, and growth.
And then lastly, if were going to achieve the wealth and the
growth and literacy in the process we need to set up the protective
boundaries, the Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
to try and protect those. So
we dont take on undue risk, and we dont have these risks impacting
us on a regular basis.
Wright
What do you mean when you say financial literacy?
Abraham
Too often we look at the accumulation of wealth, as a destination
instead of more like a journey. It includes an understanding of all the
choices that we make at different stages of our life cycleeven as a
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
59
childunderstanding the value of money and understanding how it
works.
When my son was in fifth grade, the teacher put together a pro-
gram, she called the Betty Boop Box. Each student had a Betty
Boop checkbook and, depending on how they did in class or how they
did on the test, they got paid in Betty Boop bucks. They would then
make a deposit in their Betty Boop checkbook. Once a week they
could go to the store and buy candy or something for themselves.
The purpose of the program was to teach them, in a fun way, the
process of earning, the process of spending, the process of budgeting,
and the importance of controlling it and how it can impact ones fu-
ture. Our kids should start to understand these elements at a
younger age. They need to know what money management and
wealth savings is as they start into their higher school years and go
on to college.
When people have completed school they need to have the ability
to manage and plan for the other stages of their lives as they begin
looking to a profession, marriage, a family, retirement, and putting
their kids through school. If people wait until they are ready to enter
the workforce it is too late because too many erroneous perceptions
and bad ideas have become engrained. All of this takes planning, goal
setting, task setting, and timelines, as well as a process to revaluate
the whole plan on a regular basis.
Remember, If you fail to plan you plan to fail. This has never
been so true than in the financial realm and business realm. Conse-
quently, if you achieve success or achieve wealth and growth
financially, without a plan it is purely coincidence or luck, and coinci-
dence and luck are fleeting.
Wright
How big a problem is the lack of financial literacy?
Abraham
For the kind of nation that the United States is as a world power
and a world financial center, I think its a huge problem if you look at
the statistics. Recent statistics show that forty-four percent of
Americans live above their means and sixty percent of them carry
debt in excess of $4000 each month. In 2003 alone, 1.6 million Ameri-
cans filed for bankruptcy, which is the highest in history. Four out of
five business start-ups fail within the first five years.
Masters of Success
60
There was a national survey, in 2002 on high school student sen-
iors financial knowledge. The high school seniors scored an average
of 50.2 percent. We are doing a disservice to our children in allowing
them to graduate high school with little to no financial literacy. The
problem permeates society as they get into college, and all of a sud-
den they obtain credit card offers from credit card companies. They
think its found money and start start spending it. The whole vicious
cycle begins during the college years.
Wright
How does Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
affect us?
Abraham
The focus becomes one of protecting ourselves, our family, and our
finances. Its important to understand the various risks and define
the various risks that may exist to ourselves as individuals, as family
members, as members of society, and to our businesses. The better
understanding we have of these risks, the better we will be in taking
the necessary steps to identify, avoid, and eliminate these risk from
our lives. This is the first and most important step to take great
strides in not having to worry about some of the elements that can
impact ourselves and those around us.
Wright
I read something before this interview that really fascinated me
and made me sad at the same time. You were talking about how fi-
nancial literacy keeps us from meeting our life goals. Two out of three
American households will probably fail to realize one or more of their
major life goals because they fail to develop a comprehensive financial
plan. Thats a little scary, isnt it?
Abraham
It absolutely is. Unfortunately, we take on a victim mentality and
yet we all have greatness inside of us. That greatness is in different
facets of each our lives, but it is greatness nonetheless and needs to
be nurtured, cultured, and harvested. If we can identify the dormant
greatness in each of us, we can make the right choices to achieve our
hopes, dreams, and goals. Additionally, if we make the wrong choices
but can recognize that we made the wrong choices, we always have
the ability to make different choices, which will ultimately change the
course of our future.
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
61
We all need to understand that each moment we have the ability
to change our futures forever by making a different choice. Its never
set in stone and thats one of the things that happens. We set a plan,
we dont follow the plan, we dont reevaluate it, we dont refocus, and
we stop making the choices.
Wright
For those people out there who are reading this book and who
want to know about protecting themselves, what are some things that
they can do to protect their businesses from check fraud?
Abraham
There are a lot of steps we can take. We need to consider the ever
evolving, higher technology environment we live in today. For in-
stance, counterfeiting checks existed for a long time but it was
perpetrated in a different way than it is now.
Desktop publishing is probably the largest threat to our check pay-
ing system that exists. Counterfeiters perpetrating check fraud have
the ability to alter, replicate, duplicate, all kinds of checks, from pay-
roll checks, to accounts payable, to refund checks, to money orders,
and gift certificates. Gift certificates are no different than cash when
they get out there on the street. So we need to understand that with
access to scanners, personal computers, color digital copiers, and la-
ser printers and that type of technology, it is much easier to commit
this type of crime. It is also much faster than it used to be. They still
use some of the older means, though, including the use of cotton
paste, chemicals, or things of that nature.
The reality is that we used to be able to only get our checks by or-
dering them directly from the bank; and we had to go pick them up
directly from the bank when they were ready. That is just not the
case anymore. We all get coupon packs in the mail that allows us to
order checks by mail. All I need is an address, a phone number, and
an account number and I can order someone elses checks and start
writing them. Its not that difficult to do and many people become vic-
tims because of these types of crimes.
There are steps that we can use to try and reduce the exposure to
that. First off, theres a program called Positive Pay or Match Pay
(banks use different terms for it). This is a wonderful program, espe-
cially for businesses. Its the probably most effective check fraud
prevention tool that exists. It is a check matching service that allows
the check issuer to transmit a file to the bank listing the checks once
Masters of Success
62
they are issued. Through the Positive Pay/Match Pay system
compares the account number, the check number, and the dollar
amount of the checks against the list of checks that was issued by the
company. If any of the information doesnt match, then it gets kicked
out as an exception. The exception gets stoppedit doesnt get proc-
essed. If someone has tampered with the check number or the account
number, or its not on the list at all, then the person trying to do the
forgery gets stopped. Its a wonderful system, especially for busi-
nesses and those companies issuing volumes of checks.
The second important thing to do, which surprisingly doesnt hap-
pen on a regular basis, is to perform regular bank reconciliations.
Balancing the darn checkbook, is really what its all about. Many of
the banks require us to notify them of any discrepancies within thirty
days.
I cant tell you how many businesses and individuals I have seen
with unopened bank statementstheyve never even opened them,
let alone looked at them. It reminds me of that old T-shirt that says,
I still have checksI still have money. It does not work that way,
obviously. Regular systematic bank reconciliations can identify a
fraud that may have occurred quickly, can eliminate any future fraud
from occurring, and can get it resolved before any further losses are
experienced.
The other concern here is who does the banking reconciliation, es-
pecially in a business; because it is extremely important to have a
separation of duties. The people who are issuing the checks shouldnt
be the same people who are reconciling the accounts.
When you leave an opportunity open for someone to commit a
fraud, and if you look at the statistics, you will find that they actually
believe they are justified in committing the fraud and will say, What
harm is it? Typically the reality is greed gets most people who com-
mit fraud or crimes of this nature caught. They start with fraud for a
dollar, it goes to two, to four, to eight, snowballing until it gets so
large they cant control it.
Wright
What about identity theft?
Abraham
Before we go there, let me touch on a few other things that I think
are important to related to check fraud. There are a lot of ways to
prevent check fraud beyond what we just talked about. They include
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
63
controlling the check paper and using thermal chromatic inks or void
pentagraphs on the checks. Many of your checks come with some of
these precautions anyway. If someone tries to make a copy of the
check or scan the check in any way, it has void written all the way
across it. This cant be seen with the naked eye. We need to look at
the Xerox copy, watermarks, or holograms.
Micro printing is another thing. Most of the lines on a check, such
as the borderlines or signature lines, are created with a process called
Micro printing. If you view these areas under magnification, you will
see that its not a just a line, its actually micro printing of various
types of words. It is not possible to copy something micro printed. Mi-
cro printing exists on our currency as well.
The last thing about check fraud is if someone has embezzled
money and taken money from you legally (or illegally), it is consid-
ered income for them according to the Internal Revenue Service.
Rather than dealing with it yourself, you can actually issue a 1099
form to them. This will notify the IRS and you can allow the IRS to
deal with waving the big stick.
Lets look at identify theft, since you asked. It was something
nonexistent previously, but has grown exponentially in recent years.
The ease of committing these crimesstealing and making a fair
amount of money while merely sitting at a computer desk somewhere
has made this a very popular crime. The criminals no longer need to
be an armed robber in a bank under cameras risking stiffer penalties
and their livesthey simply sit in some remote location where it is
difficult to be detected. Five hundred to seven hundred thousand
Americans are victimized each year and it continues to grow.
Wright
How does Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
help us in preventing all this?
Abraham
Its a process of protection. For instance, using it can guard your
social security number. Many medical and other types of companies
have used your social security number as your plan identification
number, but most have now done away with this practice. You need
to protect your social security number at all costs. Once others have
your social security number, they have access to your credit report,
and they have access to your bank accounts. How many times does a
bank or credit card company ask, Give me the last four digits of you
social security number? Once this information is given, no other
Masters of Success
64
identification is requested and the thief has access to your bank ac-
count and/or your credit cards.
Another step you can take is to monitor your credit report. They
may not be committing theft and fraud on your existing accounts,
credit cards, and checking accounts because that is usually caught
quicker, but if they have your social security number and access to
your information they are able to get loans in your name without your
knowledge. I have seen instances where a criminal was able get house
loans, car loans, boat loans and personal loans, which are in someone
elses name and the victim didnt have any knowledge of it (until they
stopped making payments, that is). A good way to protect yourself
against this is by looking at your credit report on a regular basis.
We laugh about it at times but shred all your old bank statements
and credit card statements. Shred them all. And dont use a regular
strip shredder, use a confetti shredder. This way, it comes out in
small squares and they cannot go through and try to piece together.
You need to even shred the junk mail that comes in. These criminals
are not above dumpster diving. If they find the right documents
theyve got your name and your information. They can then fill out a
credit card application and just change the address. Now they have a
credit card in your name.
You can also put a fraud alert on your credit report, so if someone
tries to establish credit in your name, the person who is going to give
someone credit in your name is going to contact you directly. The
fraud alert forewarns them to do that before allowing credit to be
granted.
As for your social security card, I wouldnt keep it in your wallet if
I were you. Dont keep it in your wallet with your credit cards; if you
lose your wallet youve lost everything. Theyve got access to your
credit card, your drivers license, and your social security number;
they dont need anything elsethey have access to your whole life.
Wright
That social security number is really important isnt it?
Abraham
It actually is. I remember back years ago when I worked in a re-
tail clothing store. I had some customers who had their social security
number and their drivers license number printed on their checks!
Watch out for how you make your bill payments. Remember the
old time mailboxes that are probably still around in some areas? You
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
65
dont see them in some developments anymore. If you have outgoing
mail you put the little flag up and the mail carrier comes and takes
the mail. This is like an advertisement for criminals. They under-
stand that around the first of the month, mortgage payments and
other bills are mailed. They will go by a mailbox and grab the mail
before the mail carrier gets there. Now they have access to your
checking account because they now have a check you mailed paying
the bill. Drop your mail in a postal slot somewhere rather than put-
ting it out there where someone else can get it.
Wright
What should we do if we become a victim?
Abraham
There are a couple of things. The first thing is to report it as a
crime to the police immediately. You want to give them as much
documentation as you possibly can. Some police departments have
been known to refuse to write a police report on some of these things.
But I would suggest and really urge the victim to be persistent with
them and say, I need this, I need it for my records. Your credit card
companies, your bank (and your insurance company in many cases)
are going to require that report to verify a crime actually was com-
mitted. You need to first and foremost report it as a crime to the local
police department. If checks were stolen, notify the bank immedi-
ately and shut down the accounts. Youre going to have to put stop
payments on the uncleared checks, but it this is a minor cost com-
pared to what youre going to have to deal with if someone gets your
financial information. Shut the accounts down, start them freshgo
to your bank and deal with it. Put a secret password on the new ac-
count. Instead of, for instance, using your mothers maiden name, ask
them to use a secret password thats not related to a child, a parent, a
family member, or something of that nature. Have the bank ask for
the secret password for all transactions that are above a certain scope
or within a certain category you will designate. Most banks and some
of the credit card companies will ask you to sign an affidavit stating
that you were not the one who committed these charges; you have
been a victim of fraud and to call the credit card companies to verify
the transaction. Again, shut the affected account down. Tell the credit
card company to process the request as closed at the consumers re-
quest, not that the card was lost or stolen. It does have an impact on
credit bureaus and reports. Do everything in writing, keeping dates
Masters of Success
66
and copies of all correspondence. Then contact the fraud unit of the
three credit reporting bureaus: Experian, Equifax, and Trans Union.
(Experian is formally TRW.) If you contact one of these companies
they will typically contact the other two for you. Report the theft of
the cards, report the fraud, put a fraud alert on your account and
request a victim statement be added to your report. You can add a
statement to the report as it relates to the fraud and if the report is
run, what happened will be understood.
These are some of the basic steps that should be taken if you be-
come victimized. It is a time-consuming, aggravating, frustrating
processes.
Many people have automatic debits to their credit card for various
items that will need to be changed. When I shut things down on my
credit cards, as time went on I had to recall whether the charge was
an automatic charge to the card or not. I had to notify several compa-
nies that they couldnt use that card anymore. It is a time-consuming,
aggravating, frustrating thing to go through; but unfortunately, it is
an issue in society today and we just have to deal with it.
Wright
Is embezzlement a big problem?
Abraham
Yes, it is. As I said, its one of the oldest crimes we have seen and
in the last two decades. Its been ranked number one on the KPMG
survey of a thousand companies ever since the beginning of the sur-
vey. When you look at this, under the revised Uniformed Commercial
Universal Code, employers are going to have sole responsibility for
the actions of their employees. Employers are in a far better position
to avoid losses by being very specific and very careful about selecting
and supervising their employees. Employers should put controls or
fraud prevention measures into place, making it clear what their
position is on this and that it is not going to be tolerated. Thats a big,
big step. An employer needs to call a prospective employees refer-
ences and gain an understanding about why they left their previous
job (believe it or not this is seldom done). If we have employees who
are handling money and account receivables, we really do need to
check into it and understand the dynamics of the individual em-
ployees personality.
I know some employers who are running credit reports. Law en-
forcement agencies run credit reports because they want agents who
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
67
arent going to be in a financial bind. Financial stress can make a
person predisposed to accepting bribes, embezzlement, or theft, or
anything of that nature. I think this is unfortunate, but it is the real-
ity of the nature of our society today and we need to look at it in that
context.
Wright
So how does Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
assist in preventing this?
Abraham
It increases our ability to protect ourselves and it reduces our ex-
posure to these types of crimes. So you consider actions ranging from
controlling check stocks, to hiring practices, to bank statement recon-
ciliations, audits, and separation of duties. But the biggest factor is
that it focuses on identification and raising your awareness as an in-
dividual, family member, member of society, and as a business owner,
to understand that you do have exposure and where that exposure
comes from. Knowledge is crucial when it comes to your vulnerability.
The source of the exposure gives you an opportunity to eliminate that
exposure from your life.
We need to live with the realities of todays societal climate and
acknowledge that every day we are exposed to numerous. We live
with continual threats to us as a person in a post 9/11 society. We
really never even considered that the kind of atrocious act that oc-
curred on 9/11 could have happened to us as American citizens on our
own soil. If that can happen, we must believe that these more minor,
less atrocious crimes (although not minor or less atrocious to the vic-
tim) can also happen. It is time we learned how to live in that reality
and how to reduce our exposure.
The kinds of crimes that are committed today have increased tre-
mendously over the years. The occurrence of crime has increased as
our economy has experienced a downturn. We are likely, therefore, to
see a continuing rise in financial crimes. There are going to be con-
stant risks and threats to our person, our family, our businesses, and
our financial future and they can paralyze us if we choose to do noth-
ing. They can paralyze us; they can prevent us from thriving, and
they can prevent us from achieving our goals. They will threaten the
very ideals and values we live and stand for. We spend at least a
third of our lives trying to create wealth and give a life of abundance
our loved ones and ourselves only to have it threatened by what are
preventable scams, crimes, embezzlements, frauds, identity thefts,
Masters of Success
68
forgeries, and other financial, as well as physical, crimes. So by un-
derstanding them and knowing what to look for, we can avoid them in
the future, or at least hopefully minimize the impact they may have
on our life.
Bulletproof Boundaries
TM
is where we create a means to recognize
threats as they are revealed and take action before they have a nega-
tive, potentially disastrous impact on our lives. Truly, Bulletproof
Boundaries
TM
is there helping individuals and families to protect
their hopes and dreams.
Wright
Mel, I really appreciate your taking all this time with me this af-
ternoon to discuss this really important subject. Ive learned a lot. I
plan to make some changes when I get back to the office based on
some of the things youve said.
Abraham
Thank you for taking the time out to speak with me today.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Mel H. Abraham, CPA. Mel is a
highly sought after expert and successful entrepreneur with numer-
ous business interests. In the personal protection realm, hes the
creator of the much in demand presentation Bulletproof Boundari-
es
TM
: Safety and Success Strategies for an Unsafe World. I think weve
found out today that he knows a lot about what hes talking about.
Thank you so much, Mel, for being with us today on Masters of Suc-
cess.
Abraham
Thank you.
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
69
About Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
Mel is a highly sought after expert (CPA) and a very successful
entrepreneur with multiple businesses. Regularly called upon as a
forensic expert in financial and valuation issues, he is also a nationally
recognized and award-winning speaker, having addressed professional
conferences on local, state, and national levels. Mels two-fold fort is
providing strategies in financial risk management and in
personal/physical, threat management, and self-protection. His clients
span the country. In the personal protection realm, he is the creator of
the highly requested presentation, Bulletproof Boundaries

Safety and
Success Strategies for an Unsafe World. This enlightening program
provides intellectual tools for living with confidence and security in a
risky world through awareness and recognition of threatening situations.
Drawing on Mels diverse expertise, this dynamic program addresses
both personal safety and presents measures you can take to protect your
financial corporate security against financial crimes. He has received
numerous speaking awards and has authored numerous articles. His
authoritative book, Valuation Issues and Case Law UpdateA Reference
Guide, has been released in a fourth edition. Recently, he was co-author
of the business valuation industrys best selling book, Financial
Valuation: Applications and Models, released last year by John Wiley &
Sons, Inc.
Mel H. Abraham, CPA, CVA, ABV, ASA
543 Country Club Drive, Suite B-543
Simi Valley, CA 93065
Phone: 805.578.1515
Fax: 805.293.8950
Email: [email protected]
www.melabraham.com

70



71
Chapter Five
DIANE HANSON
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Diane Hanson. Diane brings thirty years
of experience in performance-improvement consulting, training, ex-
ecutive coaching, and team building to her work for large and small
businesses, governmental agencies, and nonprofits. Her wealth of
knowledge in developing effective teams has helped her clients dra-
matically improve their productivity. Her clients include
AstraZeneca, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, The Wharton School, McDon-
alds Corporation, Playtex Products, and the Department of
Homeland Security. She has addressed groups such as the Society of
Pharmaceutical and Biotech Trainers, International Society for Per-
formance Improvement, and The American Society for Training and
Development.
Diane, welcome to Masters of Success.
Diane Hanson (Hanson)
Thank you.
Masters of Success
72
Wright
Youve worked with teams for nearly twenty years. How did you
become known as The Team Doctor?
Hanson
It started many years ago when the president of a small technol-
ogy company called my office to ask for emergency help for a team
working on a strategically critical project that had a tight timeframe.
In fact, this team had reached such a serious level of conflict that
members even had a fistfight in the office! As I worked with the team,
its members began calling me their Team Shrink. Over time, I be-
gan to use the name Team Doctor and adopted it for my website and
email address.
By the way, I was able to help that team to successfully complete
their important project on time. However, when teams reach such
severe conflict I can help them heal the wounds, but scar tissue usu-
ally remains and can often prevent the team from truly reaching top
performance. During this interview I hope to explain how to avoid
this potential problem.
Wright
Will you tell me what a team is and what types of teams there are?
Hanson
Yes. A team is basically a group of individuals working collabora-
tively. And the key word is collaboratively. The word team can be a
misnomer if it is used to refer to a group of people who happen to
work in the same department or at the same office location, but who
do not need to work together. What is important is that theyre people
who depend upon each other to achieve desired results.
Wright
I see, so each team member has his or her own talent?
Hanson
Yes. Team members often have valuable talents in common, but
on some teams members may have completely different skills and
areas of expertise. Let me explain. There are five types of teams:
work teams or functional teams, cross-functional teams, project
teams, virtual or cyberspace teams, and self-directed teams.
Diane Hanson
73
Work teams might be established in finance or marketing depart-
ments. These teams function in areas where everyone has similar
skills, or at least skills within a similar area of specialization. Some-
times team members happen to work together, but its incorrect to
call their group a team if they only work in the same department. If
they work collaboratively, however, they constitute a work team or
functional team.
The next type of team is cross-functional, meaning the team in-
cludes workers who have many different talents and areas of
specialization. For example, say an automotive company is designing
a new car. A cross-functional team assigned to support this undertak-
ing might include people in manufacturing, engineering, marketing,
and finance. All of them might be involved in designing the new car
from the standpoint of manufacturing considerations, design, cus-
tomer needs, and cost.
A project team may be cross-functional as well, but it becomes a
project team only when its members are challenged with a particular
task that has a finite beginning and end, such as planning a new
marketing campaign. Or it could be a team assigned to improve a cer-
tain process or work on a particular problem, such as improving
customer satisfaction, planning strategic growth, or something of that
nature.
The next type of team is the virtualcyberspaceteam where
team members work at different locations. Examples might include
an international team where employees work in different countries, a
team at a company with offices in several locations within the same
city or country, or a team thats located at a single location but works
in different buildings. Virtual team members dont see each other
physically very often and must communicate primarily by e-mail and
conference calls. This is rapidly becoming the most common type of
team.
Finally, self-directed teams manage themselves. They have a
particular project or outcome for which they are responsible and they
accomplish their objective close without the management of someone
at a higher level.
Wright
It sounds like that would have to be a responsible team.
Masters of Success
74
Hanson
It would have to be, absolutely; members must be very responsible
and organized.
Wright
So whats the ideal size of a team?
Hanson
An ideal team size is usually five to eight people. This number fos-
ters enough creativity but should not immobilize members when they
dont agree. As you can imagine, the more people assigned to a team,
the harder it is to get everyone to agree on issues. When groups get
too large, progress may become very difficult. The absolute maximum
size for a team would be twelve. Beyond this, I recommend breaking
groups up into smaller teams or sub-units all connected by a greater
whole. Representatives of the subgroups can attend meetings of other
teams or communicate with them as needed to maintain consistency
and pass information and work along.
Wright
What stages or transitions do teams go though in their develop-
ment?
Hanson
Teams usually pass through five definable stages in their normal
development. I would like to discuss each phase as well as those is-
sues that need attention during each phase.
The first phase is called the orientation or the forming phase.
When a team first forms, members are occasionally uncertain about
how they will operate. Team members may look forward to the idea of
being on a team, but are often unsure about what is expected of them.
At this point members may not be totally willing to commit them-
selves to the teams goals until they know for sure what the team is
expected to do. To all appearances, members may seem very positive.
However, they may actually adopt a wait-and-see attitude to deter-
mine if this new way of getting things done is really going to work
and if the team will be able to accomplish its goals. This is the time
when a teams leader needs to help members master the basics of de-
veloping shared goals, creating a plan of action, clearly defining team
members roles and expectations, and developing cohesive relation-
Diane Hanson
75
ships. Team leaders must serve as positive role models while actively
encouraging involvement of others.
The second team stage is called the dissatisfaction or the storm-
ing phase. That happens because a team often starts to experience
internal conflict at this point in its development. While the storming
phase is almost unavoidable, training in team building and develop-
ing an effective structure and foundation can minimize unproductive
conflict and help team members succeed. This is when members need
to develop plans and revise them when necessary to redefine gray
areas of responsibility. The team needs to establish procedures for
how members are going to do their work and live by ground rules for
fair and productive interaction. Members have to start encouraging
each other to speak up and to overcome diversions inadvertently
caused by more extroverted members who may tend to take over
meetings. This is the time for members to work on improving their
communication skills.
The third stage of team development is the resolution or norm-
ing phase. Here team members continually improve trust and
comfort and begin to work more effectively with each other. As the
team continues to work on communications issues and problem solv-
ing, members begin to see noticeable results in achieving their goals.
The fourth phasethe production phase or performing stage
is the reason organizations start teams in the first place. This is the
time when team members become a smoothly functioning machine
and can achieve very high levels of productivity. As they work well
together, members share a clear vision of what theyre trying to ac-
complish. Meetings become less frequent and more efficient. Members
learn to share team leadership, become more self-managed, and will-
ingly trust each other.
The last team-passage phase is whats known as the transform-
ing or transition phase. This may occur when a team is disbanded,
when the team recruits new members, or when a new leader takes
charge. If participants are completing a project as the team disbands,
they usually want to feel a sense of closure. If a team is adding new
members, the group needs to assimilate those new participants by
reviewing the basics with them. Its everyones responsibility to make
sure new members know the teams goals and its plan of action for
achieving goals. The team needs to revisit everyones roles and adjust
them to make sure the team has all the talent it needs to get its work
done. Each individual may need to find out what other team members
can do to pick up the slack and, in some cases, the team may want to
Masters of Success
76
go outside to seek extra skills, competencies, or counsel. Outside as-
sistance may come from a contractor or an advisor who has a
particular skill to lend to the team on a full- or part-time basis.
Thats a really compressed explanation of the five stages of team
development and how to manage each phase.
Wright
When you were talking about the second stage you mentioned con-
flict as something teams usually experience to some extent. Will you
talk about some of the causes of team conflict?
Hanson
Causes of potential conflict are numerous and varied. However,
Ive found in working with teams over the last twenty years conflict
usually centers on five specific areas. I call them the Components of
Productive Teams. These include shared goals, clearly defined roles
and expectations, effective communications, established procedures
and ground rules, and cohesive relationships. Lets look at each one.
A very common cause of conflict is unclear or unshared goals. A
team does not necessarily have to decide what its goal is. A company
can start a team with a specific goal in mind, but everyone needs to
understand what it is and to agree to work toward it. I call that a
shared goal. Once team members agree on a goal, they need to de-
velop a plan for how theyre going to achieve it.
Conflict can seriously escalate when roles, responsibilities, and
expectations are left unclear. Team members need to understand and
define who will perform certain tasks, who should be responsible for
seeing jobs through to completion, and what team members expecta-
tions are of each other and of their team leader.
Theres an expression, Talk is cheap, its the misunderstanding
that gets expensive! This adage is certainly indicative of some of the
challenges in team communications. When team members fail to keep
each other in the loop, the team can suffer from unproductive activity,
mistakes, duplicated efforts, and conflict. Teams need effective com-
munications on all angles360-degree communications. Workers
should keep other team members informed, but they also need to
communicate well with their team leader, customers, other depart-
ments, and outside sources.
Frequent sources of conflict that members dont always anticipate
are procedures, policies, and ground rules. These three team funda-
mentals often get overlooked. So do discussion and agreement about
Diane Hanson
77
how team members should enforce them. The result is that members
often find themselves in arguments about how theyre going to do
something. Commonly overheard statements may be, This is the way
we did it where I worked before, or, This is the way weve always
done it. Much of a teams conflict can be redirected into creative en-
ergy if members agree up front how theyre going to do certain tasks
and if they have written policies that help members get tasks done.
Personalitiesthe personal relationships among team members
represent my last common area for potential conflict. Combine per-
sonalities with workplace politics and major conflicts can boil over
with amazing speed. Conflict can come from egos, relationships, or
rank. Discord may be particularly damaging when an ambitious team
member who wants to get ahead steps on somebody elses toes, or
when one worker gets the promotion another team member thought
he or she deserved.
Personality issues like these can drastically reduce a teams effec-
tiveness since team members must trust each other to be able to work
with each other. Personal issues may often interfere or destroy with
mutual confidence.
Occasionally a team may have one or two members who may be
very difficult to work with. In such cases, a teams leader may suggest
that these individuals should receive team coaching or counseling. In
other cases, its the teams responsibility to address a problem team
members behavior head on. In severe situations, members may actu-
ally ask a troublesome team member to leave the team.
Wright
How significant are personalities in team conflict?
Hanson
Obviously, personalities can pose significant challenges and oppor-
tunities. In my experience, however, teams often overemphasize
personality as a root cause of conflict. I find in most situations the
real sources are the other four factors that I just covered: 1) a lack of
shared goals, or plan for achieving them; 2) lack of clarity on roles
and responsibilities; 3) ineffective communication; and 4) lack of poli-
cies and procedures. Without these four factors in place, an
organization may very well establish an environment in which con-
flict will thrive.
Many times, conflict gets blamed on personalities. Yet, when Im
called in to an organization to analyze a team, I often determine that
Masters of Success
78
its not anyone in particular who is a problem or at fault. The under-
lying problem is a lack of structure. Basically, anyone who joins a
team that has a lack of structure may eventually find himself or her-
self in conflict. Imagine a team where no one can agree on what its
goal should be. What happens is that everyone rows the boat in a dif-
ferent direction, so the boat winds up going nowhere. At best its
going to drift around in circles. If it heads into a wave the wrong way,
the boat can capsize.
My belief is that personalities often get a bad rap. Its a common
misconception that teammates have to like each other to work to-
gether effectively. A lot of team-building efforts are directed towards
personality profiling and warm and fuzzy games to get people to know
and like each other. That has its place, especially when you have a
newly formed team whose members dont know each other. But its
not going to help people work together as a team if warm and fuzzy is
all the team accomplishes.
In fact, when people like each other too much, members might be
reluctant to challenge each others suggestions and ideas. Even
worse, team members may mistakenly put favored friends in charge
of tasks that other team members who have related experience and
skills should really be doing. Although team members dont have to
like each other, they should certainly respect each other and the
skills others bring to the team. This will help everyone work together.
Wright
What are the main obstacles to a teams success?
Hanson
Lack of management support tops the list. Without it, a team faces
serious difficulty getting the information and resources it needs. If
members sense they dont have management support, they may not
agree on what their goals should be or how to reach them.
Wright
But why would management initiate teams and then withhold
support?
Hanson
Management may not have clearly defined its own roles and re-
sponsibilities in supporting teams. Middle management may not have
authority to budget funds to provide training or resources to the com-
Diane Hanson
79
panys teams. Finally, management may not have thought the team
concept through thoroughly enough for teams to really succeed.
I mentioned politics earlier and Ill get into that a little bit more
here. Take this example of a cross-functional team. Management may
actually prevent members from contributing to a team when supervi-
sors establish departmental priorities they feel are more important
than team goals. Sometimes, when individuals responsible for teams
fail to build sufficient allies for their cause, others in the company are
unenthusiastic about supporting the effort. They may feel its not go-
ing to be successful and dont want to be affiliated with it. Often,
different company divisions or sections have historically conflicting
goals that hinder effective, collaborative teamwork. Finally, many
companies suffer dysfunctional interpersonal, managerial relation-
ships that are related to past negative interactions among
individuals, perhaps in the political realm.
Sometimes managers refuse to support teams because teams
threaten supervisory authority. Some supervisors actually fear losing
their jobs. If a team truly becomes self-directed, a manager might fear
that the company could find him or her superfluous. In some extreme
cases, managers have actually sabotaged a teams work.
Wright
Lets look at the positive side. What then would be factors that
make teams more productive or more successful?
Hanson
Management support, along with the five components of produc-
tive teams that I reviewed earlier, are the most important factors in
creating motivated teams. Another important element is thinking
through and providing the rewards or consequences associated with
teamwork. Many managers who expect workers to participate on
teams do not give adequate consideration to whether or how members
should be rewarded for teamwork. If team members are rewarded
primarily as individuals and their performance reviews dont even
mention teamworkwhich is commonno one will feel a strong in-
centive to work with others on teams. In fact, some companies base
their bonus structures on a process called forced ranking, in which
managers rank workers by performance level with no tie scores being
permitted. A manager might have one employee who excels in one
aspect of his or her job, and another whos very good in a second as-
pect of the job. Although these employees performances are
Masters of Success
80
comparable, managers must rank one employee as number five and
another has to be number six. Such a ranking system is
counterproductive to teamwork.
Wright
What special factors affect the success of an international team?
Hanson
Actually the same factors that affect success of any work team ap-
ply to international teams as well. However, international teamwork
faces complications that Im sure everyone can well imagine. One of
the most important dynamics on international teams is personal
bonding among individuals. I said earlier that sometimes theres too
much emphasis placed on personality. However, since members of
international teams may rarely physically see each other, it is abso-
lutely essential that they get together face to face, at least once, early
in the teams development. Separation can be a tremendous obstacle
because of travel expense and the logistics of getting people from
many different countries together. If team members who cannot see
each other must talk to each other by e-mail all the time, they are at
a great disadvantage in communication. Members need time to physi-
cally meet and get to know each other and bond.
International teams also need special resources, such as cross-
cultural interpreters to explain how body language may signal very
different messages in different countries. We know that in Islamic
countries it is an insult to show the bottom of ones shoe. In our
American culture flashing a middle finger is a tremendous insult. But
in other countries identical gestures may mean something innocent.
Team members need to understand body language as much as spoken
or written language.
Furthermore, international team members usually also need more
equipment than other teams. They definitely require computers, tools
to do the job, and supplies like any other team; but international
teams also require video conferencing capabilities. Some companies
have installed conferencing that lets team members sit at a table in
front of a screen where they can see the teammates in another coun-
try or at another location. This gives everyone the feeling that the
team is together physically. Conferencing equipment can certainly
enhance communication across hemispheres.
Diane Hanson
81
Wright
So how can teams overcome time and resource constraints?
Hanson
If an organization fails to support its teams goals and the teams
themselves, members may not successfully overcome critical obsta-
cles. Thats why some teams fail; and thats why management
support is one of the main factors in a teams success. Heres a worst-
case scenario: A companys management starts teams for a political
reason, say, to make it appear that the organization is addressing a
problem. Since no one has any real expectation that teams will suc-
ceed, the team effort is probably doomed.
On the other hand, with full management support and sufficient
resources, teams can jell and members can bond to achieve a common
goal. These teams can sometimes overcome massive obstacles by ap-
plying their own creativity, resourcefulness, and willingness to work
hard. Thats the best reason for organizations to start teams in the
first place. The key is that team members must enthusiastically sup-
port their teams goal and feel that theres a definite reward in
achieving it.
When I was a sales manager, my unit director gave my section a
sales quota that was astronomically high for a particular product.
Because the company was planning a major television advertising
campaign, management wanted to make sure the product was
stocked in retail stores. I found it extremely difficult to assign a spe-
cific quota to individuals because sales professionals understood the
quota was a real mission impossible.
Instead, I assigned the overall quota as a collective challenge to
my sales personnel, and asked them to work on it as a team. What-
ever percentage of the quota they achieved as a team would be what
each individual sales person received on his or her performance re-
view and bonus evaluation. As a result, everyone sensed they were
playing in the same game and team members would win or lose as a
team. The result was that our unit was the only team in the nation to
achieve the Mission Impossible quota. I think this case history
shows what a team can do if members have a common goal and are
rewarded for achieving it.
Wright
So do teams need special training?
Masters of Success
82
Hanson
Yes. One of the most important elements teams need is coaching
in team skills, concentrating on the five components of a productive
team mentioned earlier. I work with teams to develop a clear team
goal that members all agree to and then create a plan of action to
achieve it. That might seem fairly basic, but its not. Goal setting and
action planning are skills that teams have to learn. Teams often
benefit when an outside facilitator provides assistance to help them
define and clarify what needs to happen, how it will be done, whos
going to do it, and on what schedule. Team members should also
clearly define their roles and expectations, work on skills and meth-
ods for communicating with all their different stakeholders, and
establish policies and procedures for working together and with oth-
ers. Teams need leadership and management skills training so that
everyone can give feedback, conduct meetings, manage change, and
interview people.
As an aside regarding conducting meetings, its amazing how to-
days professionals spend nearly half their time in unproductive
meetings. Its very frustrating for people working sixty to seventy
hours a week to misallocate any amount of time to ineffective meet-
ings. Yet companies rarely train employees on how to plan a meeting
agenda or facilitate a discussion. Im amazed at exasperated manag-
ers or team leaders who tell me they are too busy to pull an agenda
together. They could have saved at least an hour of meeting time by
taking five minutes to plan the meeting agenda ahead of time. In-
stead they spend two hours in an unproductive meeting. Wheres the
sense?
Teams often also need cross training. Members ought to learn
what kinds of tasks the person sitting next to them is doing and how
they do it. Cross training can help team members fill in for each other
and move projects forward when someone is out on vacation, sick, or
traveling. Training also develops understanding and empathy for fel-
low team members. Depending on the teams purpose, training in
problem solving, creativity, and decision making can also be very
helpful. Training in technical skills, such as operating equipment,
using different types of software, or executing job procedures should
also be very helpful. For international teams, training should include
awareness of cultural issues such as the body language of different
cultures.
Finally, team training should be conducted in a timely manner.
Giving a team weeklong, marathon training on teamwork usually
Diane Hanson
83
doesnt work well. Its much more effective when trainers provide
coaching in small increments which have been specifically designed to
help team members with their immediate needs.
Heres an example: Say a team is interviewing candidates to be-
come new team members. Training that includes interviewing skills
and legal issues in hiring just before members conduct their first in-
terviews can be very well received and highly effective. Heres
another thought: Trainers should try to start conflict-management
training just as the team members enter the storming phase of team
building, when they start experiencing their first internal disputes.
Wright
So what can an organization or, more particularly, what could I do
as CEO of my own company to provide a good support structure for
teams?
Hanson
First, a CEO needs to be sure the organization has a realistic com-
pensation system that rewards teamwork. Often companies dont
sufficiently deliberate how theyre going to reward people who serve
on teams. Management habitually retains compensation systems that
primarily reward individual performance. Then managers scratch
their heads, wondering why people arent volunteering to work to-
gether on teams.
Second, CEOs should support their teams. They should tell team
members why their work is important, that management believes in
what teams are doing, and then publicly recognize team progress and
successes. CEOs should mandate top managers be responsible for
teams in the workplace and report team progress directly to the CEO.
These managers should also be charged with providing the human
resources and financial support members need on a regular basis.
Sometimes, very simple obstacles hinder team productivity. Heres
an example. Members of a manufacturing team got into pitched bat-
tles with each other because they had to share a ten-dollar tool
everyone needed practically all the time. Productivity took a nosedive
when tempers flared. However, all it took was a twenty-dollar in-
vestment to buy two more of the tools, and the teams productivity
and willingness to work together could have been far better. A work-
place culture supportive to team progress can eliminate these kinds of
petty problems quickly and easily.
Masters of Success
84
Wright
Thats like three people using one stapler.
Hanson
Exactly. Then they run around interrupting each other to find out
who has the stapler. Its crazy, but I see this sort of thing all the time.
A CEO should insist that every team has funding for the training and
tools members need. A CEO should also take time to listen to feed-
back from team members about the resources they need and,
particularly, their suggestions for more productive processes.
Wright
What special communications challenges do teams encounter?
Hanson
The most common challenge for any team, whether its interna-
tional or not, is the right- and left-hand syndrome. Members should
keep all other stakeholders informed about what their team is doing.
They should also remember to include others in decisions that will
affect the work and end products of other divisions or sections. All too
often, one teams solution becomes another teams problem. Without
clear and constant communication, conflict can erupt, even from
seemingly simple oversights.
When organizations lack consistent procedures, employees face
major problems in communications and interpersonal relationships as
the following case demonstrates. A dozen Ph.D. scientists had been
embroiled in such severe conflict that when I interviewed the team
members individually, more than half the members confided that
they were concerned about their own personal safety at work
someone had threatened to burn a team members house down! An-
other threatened to kill someones cat. They all feared one of the
members of the group was going to go postal and blow them all
away one day. Its hard to imagine that these were Ph.D. scientists!
Political issues further escalated the conflict. Although one of the
teams members wanted the managers position, it was given to an-
other employeeand of all things a womana first in the scientific
world at that time. The passed-over team member was highly resent-
ful. When he noticed that some money might be missing from his
project funds, he immediately blamed the new manager. He also
whispered to everyone in the office that she was using his project
Diane Hanson
85
money for her pet projects. Eventually team members divided into
two factions and ceased speaking to each other.
I coached them all individually. Then I brought the main combat-
ants together to work out their differences. When the two key
individuals met to discuss the missing project money, the accusatory
scientist discovered that he had been on sabbatical in Japan and his
travel and other expenses came out of his project funds. Because he
didnt know the facts, he pointed his finger at someone else. In this
case, we established procedures for turning in expense receipts to an
administrative assistant with codes allocating expenses to specific
project funds. Problem solveddemonstrating how a lack of proce-
dures can sometimes lead to tremendous levels of conflict.
Wright
So let me ask you a final question. How do these communication
challenges differ for virtual or international teams?
Hanson
All teams have to find ways to communicate. Everyone must know
whos in charge of which tasks and what their progress is over time.
International teams, and even virtual teams working in the different
geographic areas of the same country, face the problem of working in
different time zones. The logistics of setting up a meeting with people
all over the world in different time zones is daunting. A team member
may have to awaken at three a.m. to join a conference call or a virtual
meeting because his or her teammates on the other side of the world
have just arrived for work.
Global teams must also meet the challenge of language and cul-
tural differences. These issues obviously add complexity to team
productivity. Add to this the difficulty of communicating by e-mail,
especially if team members havent had the chance to bond and get to
know each other a little better. Now toss in the need to communicate
by e-mail in a second or third language. A misspelled word could send
a message with an entirely different meaning, leading to problems.
This demonstrates why its very important for international teams to
get to know each other on a personal level. When members know each
other well, a teammate may be more likely to say, Oh well, I know
Mary and its unlikely she would have said that. Im sure she must
have meant something else. But if they dont have that chance to get
to know each other, Marys e-mail is just another message from cy-
Masters of Success
86
berspace and can lead to unintentional reactions and even emotional
outbursts.
In addition to existing within national or religious cultures, each
company also has its own culture that makes it unique. When teams
from several collaborating companies work on a project, theres al-
ways the chance for communication and political obstacles.
Creating effective teams can be very challenging, but the potential
for success makes teamwork obviously worth it. Its essential to have
strong teams that can enhance productivity and creativity in todays
competitive business world.
Wright
Well, what a great conversation. I can see why youre in the Mas-
ters of Success book. Today we have been talking to Diane Hanson,
who brings thirty years of experience in performance-improvement
training, executive coaching, and team building to her work with both
large and small businesses. Today, we have also found out why she
was selected to be featured in this book. She certainly is a master of
the topic of teams.
Thank you so much, Diane, for being with us today on Masters of
Success.
Hanson
Thank you. Its been an honor.
Diane Hanson
87
About Diane Hanson
Diane Hanson is an authority on teams, teamwork, and organiza-
tional change. She has published articles on these and numerous
other topics. Diane was an editorial board member of Today's Team, a
publication for team members, facilitators, and team coaches. She
holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Cornell University and
graduated with distinction from the University of Pennsylvania with
a Masters in science in organizational dynamics.

Diane Hanson
Creative Resource Development, Inc.
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 1.877.692.5146
www.team-doctor.com


88


89
Chapter Six
MARGARET J. SUMPTION, MSED, CSL
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are speaking with Margaret J. Sumption. Margaret
grew up on a farm near the small town of Frederick, South Dakota.
Shes married and has an eleven-year-old son, Raymond. She holds a
Masters of Science degree in Education, Counseling, and personnel
services from Northern State University Aberdeen, South Dakota.
She owns and operates her own consulting business, Sumption & Wy-
land, in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Within her business, she provides executive coaching, staff train-
ing, board development and strategic planning services. She serves as
adjunct to the faculty at the University of Sioux Falls, teaching grant
writing and other courses. In addition to her professional responsi-
bilities she is an active volunteer in the Sioux Falls community,
acting as member of the Executive Committee for Leadership Sioux
Falls with the Sioux Falls Chamber of Commerce. Margaret is chair
of the Regional Emergency Management Authority, past chair of the
Center for Women at the University of Sioux Falls and is a member of
the local chapter of Business and Professional Women. She was the
1998 recipient of the YWCA Leader Award for Education, 1999 Sioux
Falls Sales and Marketing Executives (SME) Award for Innovation in
Masters of Success
90
Business and is a 1990 graduate of the Chamber of Commerce Lead-
ership Sioux Falls Program.
Margaret welcome to Masters of Success.
Margaret Sumption (Sumption)
Thank you.
Wright
Were going to talk about style, since style matters. Could you de-
fine style for us?
Sumption
Style is often identified as personality type, profile, and basic indi-
cators of temperament. For those familiar with some of the most
common tools like the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator or the Gregorc
Styles Indicator or perhaps the TeamDynamics
TM
Profiling System in
Human Dynamics, style is defined as those characteristics that iden-
tify how we approach the world, how we gain our energy, how we
problem-solve and make decisions, and how we generally interact
with others and our environment. Essentially those are the elements
of style; and style does indeed matter. We look for those characteris-
tics of style, and especially diversity of style, among participants in
any team or organizational group because those variances of tem-
perament and approach and problem-solving result in better
decisions by a group of people working together toward a common
end.
Wright
How does understanding your own style give you leverage for
leadership?
Sumption
First and foremost we have to understand how we think, problem-
solve, perceive information, gather information, and assist in support-
ing communicating our view to others in order to influence how
others think, respond, and communicate.
Its important, as we look at those elements of style, to understand
ourselves well and understand how we approach situations. We will
also have a better basic framework on which to support and relate
those characteristics and to see the differences in how others relate,
see problems, and problem-solve. Once we understand how we behave
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
91
and act in particular situations we can then apply that knowledge to
see the differences in the way others see and view information.
More importantly we can then go forward and help to fashion our
communication, fashion our argument from the other persons view-
point and, using that viewpoint, then assist them to more effectively
hear what we have to say and relate to our viewpoint in a common
decision-making pattern.
Wright
How does one find out the characteristics of their style?
Sumption
In finding that out, again, there are several tools that are identi-
fied. I happen to find the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator as one of the
tools I find most user-friendly. Its also well documented and a well
validated tool that works very well to help people to gain an under-
standing their style. The Human Dynamics Indicator and the Gregorc
Styles Indicator (which is more of a screening tool than it is a diag-
nostic tool), can give us an insight into who we are. How we use that
information then is by understanding ourselves and seeing how we
interact with the world. We can then apply that to how others view
organizational priorities and how they organize their environment;
we can pick up those cues and then fashion our communication effec-
tively.
The Myers Briggs in analysis uses an interesting tool to help us
understand style. They ask you to take your dominate hand and write
your signature. People can usually do that without even thinking
they can scrawl their signature and it always looks generally the
sameits very common and simple to accomplish. Now take your
non-dominate hand and write your signature; notice how difficult it is
to fashion each letter. By using that simple example we can help peo-
ple to understand how we commonly approach our world without
thinking, without pondering, without being aware, or self-aware. By
looking at our writing left-handed we can see that others may look at
the world very differently. We might perhaps fashion our arguments
more effectively by simply crossing over those common, almost auto-
matic approaches to our world by looking at our world in a different
way.
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92
Wright
How does knowing your own style and preferences impact your
ability to read others?
Sumption
Let me tell you, its very helpful to be able to understand style by
looking at how we think and perceive the world. One of the interest-
ing characteristics about style is that as we organize our decision-
making processwhat gives us energy, what excites us, how are we
coordinating our problem-solving kinds of skills sets. By understand
those important characteristics we can then look to fashioning our
communication processes in such a way that others will hear what we
are saying, respond to what we are saying, understand what we are
saying, and understand our viewpoint more effectively.
I want to make one point very, very clear thoughthere is no such
thing as a bad style. Often we find that people tend to gravitate to-
ward people who are a lot like themselves. If a person is highly
ordered and sequential in how they problem-solve, they may be at-
tracted to others who are highly ordered and sequential in their
problem-solving style. That can result in a bad outcomea less
evaluated outcomeand in a less thoroughly analyzed and effective
result for a team working together.
One of the things that understanding your style can do is help you
to appreciate and honor the styles of others and their differences so
that a better outcome can be fashioned for a team of people working
together.
Wright
Once you understand the styles of others, how can you best use
this resource to get the best out of people you supervise or team with?
Sumption
Being able to speak in their language is the most effective use of
this knowledge and resource. As we understand our own selves we
become more effective. Lets take for example an individual who is
highly ordered and sequential and you can tell which person that is.
They are always the people who consistently have their desk clean
and their files set up in an orderly fashion and usually have nothing
on the top of their deskeverything is very neatly filed and orderly in
the drawer. Next to them might be an office where a person has piles
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
93
all over; theres an automatic disconnect between those two kinds of
people.
Understanding your own style gives one the awareness to be able
to respect the randomness in the thinking process and the intuitive-
ness of the thinking process of, what it may appear to be on the
outside, a more scattered person who thinks, My gosh, this person
with a neat desk never does anything because theres nothing on his
desk. The less organized person can honor how a more organized
person thinks and how he or she arranges information in order to be
effective.
Using this example, that person who is very orderly in his or her
style may be able to effectively make a minor shift in his or her ap-
proach to problem-solving or communication and draw in that more
random thinker to get a better outcome. Alternatively, someone who
is a little bit more random in his or her style can become more intui-
tive in how he or she thinks and processes and might be able, by
putting things in folders, provide a communication strategy to help
that more sequential, orderly person to respect and appreciate others
views on a particular issue.
Essentially, understanding the styles of others can be facilitated
by writing left-handed, looking at how you do business and then at-
tempting to adjust your style to accommodate characteristics you see
coming from another person. That comes first and foremost from
knowing yourself well and then seeing how other people think differ-
ently than you do and then fashioning your argument from their
viewpoint, from their mindset, and from how they communicate and
problem-solve.
Wright
We hear a lot of talk about soft skills. First, what are they, and
secondly what impact does ones soft skills have on the ability to be
identified for leadership?
Sumption
Soft skills are all of those skills that make us a comfortable person
to be around. You hear phrases like, that person is a team player,
that person always has a smile on their face, or that person always
knows the right things to say. Soft skills are those interpersonal,
social, and communication skills identified by what some might term
emotional intelligence (if youre a devotee of that element of under-
standing of how people think and process). But essentially, soft skills
Masters of Success
94
are those skills that create an environment that draw other people to
us.
Lets say, for example, a man starts out in the world as an engi-
neera structural engineer. His first job in the market place is going
to be a skill set assessmentdoes he really understand engineering
and understand his craft and the production of products, resources,
and services that exercise his craft? Just because he is a really good
structural engineer doesnt mean he is going to be able to manage the
engineering division of an architectural firm well, because that re-
quires an entirely different set of skillspeople skills. People skills
are the ability to communicate, the ability to draw out the best in
others, the ability to problem-solve, to be empathetic with regard to
the needs of individuals and their viewpoints and perceptions. Just
because youre a really good engineer doesnt mean you have the skill
set for leadership.
The literature is very clear on one of the things we find regarding
this issuethe higher you move in level of management, administra-
tion, and leadership in an organization, the less important your
technical skills become and the more important your people skills be-
come. It is your people skills that are calledor identified in the
literatureas your soft skills. If you do not have soft skills, you
might be the best structural engineer in the architectural firm but
youre never going to get to be the leader of your architectural divi-
sion or, praise be, the leader within that firm as a whole.
Wright
How does a person gain soft skills? Can these skills be learned?
Sumption
Soft skills can be learned and they are most often learned by prac-
ticethe practicing of those continuing, interacting kind of skills that
come first and foremost from self-understanding; being able to under-
stand style issues and also, frankly, honoring the importance of
relationship building, networking, and communication with others as
an important characteristic for success in the workplace.
What often happens with highly technically talented people, is
they fail to honor the importance of having those people skills that
lead them into opportunities for leadership and management and
moving up the chain of command. Honoring the fact that these are
important skills for success in the world is the first step in being able
to learn those necessary soft skills that will allow one to move up in
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
95
an organization. Again, people need to be reminded that the higher
they go in levels of leadership and management in an organization,
the less important their technical skills becomethe more of the gen-
eralist they become.
The higher you move up in management, more important your
people skills, your communication skills, your ability to interact effec-
tively with people, your abilities to work effectively with others, and
being able to bring out, mentor, or build the skills of others become as
you move forward in that leadership capacity.
Wright
How can you help those you supervise or with whom you work on
teams to build their soft skills?
Sumption
There are several resources that are now coming into popularity.
Were seeing an explosion of new materials on the market that are
really looking at the issue of assessing your soft skills and building
those skills. Many of them are based on the issues of mentoring, pro-
viding networking resource opportunities, and assisting and
supporting people through an experiential kind of self-understanding,
team-building, and team development.
I believe very strongly that when one looks to build the skills of
others it requires an advanced level of leadership. People have to go
to the point in their leadership of finding their own voice as a leader
where they are able of stepping aside from being the person identified
as that person in power. They literally have to give up their power to
others and by mentoring and supporting and valuing the leadership
potential and the leadership resources others bring to the table, they
automatically become that leader, that mentor, that supporter, by
moving away from being the one in control or the one in power to
being the one in wisdom and responsibility and leadership. To be a
good leader one must stop being a good manager or controller. One
must translate to another level of interaction and relationship in the
work environment in order to be able to transcend those same skills
to another level of leadership with those whom they supervise.
I had an interesting experience that taught me so well, before I
became self-employed as a private consultant and started my own
firm. I worked in a wonderful organization with a very, very smart
executiveCEOwho lacked quality leadership skills. He lacked
those inherent qualities that would identify him as leader. One of the
Masters of Success
96
things that told me this was his unwillingness to allow any his staff
people to take credit for work that they had accomplished. In fact,
he would tell his subordinatesthe managers among usthat we
were not allowed to take credit for work we had accomplished, that it
was important to bring those accomplishments to him and he would
then in turn present those accomplishments to others and essentially
take control of them, to make them a team outcome as opposed to any
individual contribution.
My reaction to him at one point in time was to say, What you are
doing in this process is stopping individuals from demonstrating their
skills and leading. Wouldnt it be better if you simply took credit for
having been smart enough to hire us in the first place?
One characteristic I find in people who are unable to learn the soft
skills necessary for leadership is a sense of personal self-security. If
one lacks a sense of personal self-worth he or she will be less likely to
be able to mentor leadership and excellence in others.
Wright
We hear a lot about mentoring as a professional development
strategy. Mentoring programs have received very mixed evaluations
and many believe they dont work. Are they a good strategy? If so,
what are the elements that make them successful?
Sumption
The best mentoring programs are programs that dont assume
people know how to do it. One of the biggest mistakes organizations
make when they present a mentoring program as a strategy for pro-
fessional development is they fail to teach those prospective mentors
how to do ithow to set it up, how to carry it out and how to evaluate
results. Just as importantly, they dont help the mentee understand
how to gain from that experience, how to ask the right questions, how
to seek out relationship building opportunities and get the best out of
that relationship.
What happens then is two people get paired together and they get
told, Youre the mentoryou know a lot. Youre the menteeyou
have a lot to learn. Then several months later someone comes back
and says, How did that work for you? Thats the wrong way to do it,
and its a negative way to do it. The resulting outcome is the belief
that mentoring programs dont work.
To be effective, a well-defined mentoring program has to have a
training feature where mentors and mentees are trained to under-
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
97
stand the role of the mentoring relationship and trained to under-
stand how to access and deliver information in an effective way. Its a
very high quality assessment mechanism to evaluate that relation-
ship over time.
A second element of a good mentoring program has to be the
match. There has to be a match between the skill setthe skillsof
the mentor that you want to convey and the mentee who has a skill
set in development. There has to be a style match for those two people
which has to be very carefully evaluated and very carefully aligned.
A good mentoring program can be very cost efficient for an organi-
zation and can be a very effective way to build the skill set of
leadership within an organization; but only if an investment is made
in these important characteristics.
Wright
Lets say a company wants to increase its employees performance
and they believe soft skills development is a part of their need. How
do they go about evaluating those needs and setting up and evaluat-
ing the benefit of a program? Is an executive coaching program an
effective option?
Sumption
There are many approaches to assessing need. I believe one of the
most effective strategies is for organizations to truly step back in
their personnel management systems and take a look at the level of
the job descriptions and performance descriptions they are defining
and devising for their organization. With that they need to use the
evaluative structure, begin to put on paper those characteristics that
they would wish to seeboth the hard skillsthe technical skills
that they want, which are often conveyed well in job descriptions
and the soft skills that they want and would like to see evolve. Using
that tool then, they need to build a human resource development
strategy that will move them toward those performance objectives.
If you go back to some of Steven Coveys very important Seven
Habits, he talks about beginning with the end in mind. You have to
look at the outcome you want in the level skills, both in the techno-
logical or skill set areahard skills of an individual and the soft
skills as well, which are really a structure of a culture of an organiza-
tionand be able to articulate them effectively. Then, using that
framework, you can assess where your deficits are, where the gaps
are and then begin to build appropriate mentoring kinds of programs
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98
to effect change in some of those important skill areas, as well as con-
sider developing perhaps a coaching strategy as an alternative.
This is one example: I do a lot of executive coaching in my consult-
ing practice and I work both with executives who are wishing to build
their own skill set as well as dealing with a problem manager or
administrator who is at risk of losing employment. I see it from both
sides of the coaching practice.
Again, one of the things I find most effective in a good coaching
program is fit. Im not the best coach for every person out there and it
is necessary to look again at assessing the skill set and fit. If a coach
is identified and comes to you in a contractual relationship and
doesnt admit that they might not be the best choice for every person
in the organization, then you know you have a problem. You need to
look at that style and fit. A coaching program, if done well, can be ex-
tremely positivean extremely effective and cost efficient way to
deliver service.
I work a lot with chief executive officers and high-level manage-
ment and well as administration officials to essentially customize
training for them. They come to me either with an understanding of
the skill sets they want to attain or by saying, What is it that I need
in order to move up? We then assess together and I then build a cus-
tomized program.
An example of that is: for a $6,000 to $8,000 one-year project, dur-
ing the course of that one year I can deliver an excellent customized
resource skill development plan for a CEO that would cost three
times as much if he or she were to go to seminars held in various
venues across the country. So the assessment and coaching program
really becomes a very cost efficient way for the highest level
executives to get the advanced leadership development training they
need, including the information and technical skills necessary to as-
sess the needs of their organizations in a very safe and confidential
kind of environment.
Wright
Wow! What a great conversation. Youve given me a lot to think
about today.
Sumption
I appreciate that. Style does matter. It is a very important part of
understanding the effectiveness of businesses and organizations as
they move forward. Its really very important that understanding
Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
99
your own style first is not only gratifying in realizing that this is why
you make decisions the way you make them but its also extremely
helpful to give you the insight to know that not everyone thinks, or-
ganizes, communicates, or problem-solves in the same way. By simply
writing left-handed we can get a whole lot more done and bring out
the best in people.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Margaret J. Sumption. Within
her business she provides executive coaching, staff training, board
development, and strategic planning services. As we have found out
in this conversation, she knows what she talking about.
Thank you so much Margaret for being with us today.
Sumption
Thank you so much.
Masters of Success
100
About Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
Margaret Sumption is the senior partner of Sumption & Wyland, spe-
cializing in strategic planning, executive coaching, and training and
facilitation. Her passion, hard work, and imagination help organiza-
tions and executive clients fulfill their missions and realize their
goals. She has consulted with the CEOs, boards, and executives of
200 hospitals, universities, associations, government agencies, and
businesses since beginning practice in 1990. She is a sought-after
speaker and trainer whose energy, humor, and practical wisdom in-
spires as well as informs her audiences.

Margaret J. Sumption, MSED, CSL
Sumption & Wyland
818 South Hawthorne Avenue
Sioux Falls, SD 57104-4537
Phone: 605.336.0244
Phone: 888.4SUMPTION
Fax: 605.336.0275
Email: [email protected]
www.sumptionandwyland.com


101
Chapter Seven
JONAH MITCHELL, PH.D.
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Jonah Mitchell. Jonah has been a li-
censed Realtor since 1974. He has earned his reputation by being an
extremely knowledgeable and passionate salesman. Simply put, he
closes the deals. Jonah brings a creative, assertive, and unique per-
spective to sales leadership.
Jonah was the 2004 president of the Lexington Bluegrass Associa-
tion of Realtors and remains on the Board. He was the first president
and is a life member of the Lexington Realtors Million Dollar Club.
He is the president and CEO of Jonah Mitchell Real Estate & Auc-
tion Group, supervising all levels of marketing in real estate sales,
property management, subdivision development, and consulting. His
company specializes in residential lot marketing and sales.
Jonah is a national speaker, consultant, and president of Jonah
Mitchell Speaker & Seminar Leader. He is also a national expert wit-
ness for Fair Housing and Standards of Practice. He is a certified
instructor for the Kentucky Real Estate Commission, and is certified
by the Professional Standards Committee of the National Association
Masters of Success
102
of Realtors as a mediator. His earned accreditations include the
Accredited Buyer Representative (ABR), Certified Real Estate
Consultant (CREC), and the Graduate of Real Estate Institute (GRI)
designations.
Dr. Jonah Mitchell has earned two Bachelors degrees, one from
Asbury College in Kentucky and one from Circleville Bible College in
Ohio; a Masters degree from Valdosta State University in Georgia;
and a Doctorate of Philosophy from Georgia State University.
Jonah, welcome to Masters of Success!
Mitchell
Thank you very much, David.
Wright
Reading your biography, it seems you are the poster boy for suc-
cess in real estate and business leadership. So before we go any
further, would you tell our readers how you define and measure suc-
cess?
Mitchell
Success is the privilege of doing well that which you are passion-
ate about. It is the right mix of passion and hard work. Success is
best understood and appreciated if we agree that success is a living,
ever-changing process.
To be a top producing multi-million dollar Realtor, you must be-
gin by passing the real estate examthat is success. You must then
aggressively network, continue your education, and affiliate with a
winning companythats success. Eventually, you must close deals
thats success. Ultimately, you want to make a lasting difference and
leave a legacythats success.
I characterize this ever-changing process as "seasons of success."
We can have different or multiple successes during any or all of the
four seasons concurrently.
In the spring of each success, we plant and we plan. Those bright
spring days and nights are filled with goals, desires, and dreams that
are the beginning of any success.
In the summer of each success, we toil and we train. Those long
days and long nights are filled with work, discipline, and preparation.
Summer is our most important time and hardest work.
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
103
The fall of each success, of course, is the harvesting and the pre-
serving. Those days and nights are filled with professionalism, fine-
tuning, and excellence.
But there is always that wonderful winter of each success. Those
happy winter days and nights are filled with bounty and sharing.
Three things happen during our winters of success:
1. We understand and acquire an unquestionable taste for
great service.
2. We fully realize that excellence truly matters.
3. We start linking our legacies with people and contribu-
tions that will stand the test of time.
I believe those who are passionate and hard working can be suc-
cessful in every season. Some will measure our successes in concrete
objective terms. Others, many of whom we may never know, will pro-
claim our personal, professional, and community contributions.
Each of us must find that delicate balance of work, family, and
service. The true meaning to any season of success is to know that we
have lived every hour, every day, and every season to its fullest.
Wright
Jonah, how do we recognize success? Better yet, how do others
recognize our success?
Mitchell
Success comes in any of these three forms: 1) Material, 2) Pro-
claimed, and 3) Personal.

Material success is very measurable: sales volumes, sharehold-
ers dividends, units rented, attendance records, patent approval,
conversions, election tallies, and bank account totals. But material
success is also very relative. Suppose I close twenty million dollars of
sales annually. What about the Realtor of the Year who closed forty-
two point seven million, or what about the National Association of
Realtors team that closes over two hundred and fifty million? Mate-
rial success is only true success when it is fully realized and
appreciated. The snare in material success is that the goal is seldom
satisfiedespecially if we accept the ever-moving stick-and-carrot
belief that our goal is always more than what we possess now. The
appropriate philosophy of material success should be that we con-
tinually look forward with confidence and back without regretthat
is success.
Masters of Success
104
Proclaimed success is reflected in rewards, honors, hit songs,
press releases, civic contributions, memberships, number one best-
sellers, or political victories. There are a great many of us who enjoy
as much pleasure from a standing ovation as we do from our cashed
commission check.
Personal success is self-acknowledged and is not necessarily
found on the busiest of roads; who says success has to come on a four-
lane highway? Success could be on a private drive with no accolades
or headlines. Personal success follows your passions and personal be-
liefs. I understand that Van Gogh, whose paintings now sell for
millions, died broke; but he died a passionate painter. I doubt anyone
outside her extended family of eight children raised on Muddy
Branch in Eastern Kentucky ever ate my Grandma Cornelia
Mitchells homemade-from-scratch buttermilk biscuits, but regret-
fully you all missed the privilege of knowing one of the worlds finest
cooks. She did her personal best and served it all up with love. That is
successvery personalbut still success.
Part of your question was how I measure success. I measure suc-
cess just like Ralph Waldo Emersonby how often and how much I
laugh; by earning the respect of intelligent people and the affection of
children; by gaining the appreciation of honest critics; by enduring
the betrayal of false friends; by appreciating beauty and the best in
others. How I measure success, just like Emerson said, is to leave the
world a better placewhether by a garden patch, a healthy child, a
cure to a social ill, or a job well done.
Wright
Your biography tells about your obvious success in business. Do
you think that to be successful one must always be successful in all
areas of life, or can we sometimes fail as we continue to work toward
our goals?
Mitchell
Im not sure, but I think you have been sitting in on my Mitchells
School of Lessons Learned classes. As a matter of fact, Chapter One
is entitled, Failing to Find Success. If you are not failing, you are not
moving forward. I teach every new real estate agent that it takes ten
prospects to make one good customer; and four ready, willing, and
able customers to make a client prepared to list or to buy. That is a
lot of rejection, but its not permanent failure. I should hope that we
could find success in all areas of our life, all of the time. But if you are
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
105
one who is unafraid to pursue your call to greatness, then you under-
stand there are going to be failures along your path to success.
I find that we are either in a crisis, near a failure, in a period of
weakness, or we are soon going to be. Almost every time, success is
just down the road from doubt, embarrassment, and stress. I believe
that darkness has a purposeto be a canvas for our light.
Wright
Jonah, we both believe that learning something meaningful from
painful experiences is a lesson on success. In Conversations on Suc-
cess Randall Bell wrote, Problems create lessons, lessons create
value, and values create achievements. Was he right?
Mitchell
Absolutely. My name is Jonah; in psychology there is a phenome-
non known as The Jonah Complex. Its an abnormal behavior of
running from your calling or your greatness. The cure for it is to un-
derstand that God has no other you. Galatians 6:4 says, Make a
careful exploration of who you are and the work you have been given
and throw yourself into it; dont be overly impressed with yourself
and dont compare yourself with others (The Message Bible transla-
tion). Each of us must take responsibility for doing our creative best
even when success is temporarily denied.
Wright
Are there specific guidelines for achieving our creative best suc-
cess?
Mitchell
Yes. Long ago Cicero wrote these guidelines and here are my in-
terpretations:
1. I will not worry about the things that cant be changed or
corrected. My interpretation is I am going to concentrate
on my strengths, not my weaknesses. Learn to accept com-
pliments graciously. List your successes and refer to that
list often, especially when you are down.
2. I will not refuse to set aside trivial preferences for things
of permanent good. I interpret this as I will care enough to
change. If you think what you are doing is difficult, its
time to elevate your level of expectation. Difficult can be
Masters of Success
106
achieved. People who change the world accomplish the
impossible.
3. My individual advancements will not be made by crushing
others. I interpret that as saying Ill greet this day with a
great attitude in my heart. Ill use affirmative language;
one cant think in a positive way using negative words, so
constructive and encouraging words are essential to the
quality of life. As the song says, "And I think to myself,
what a wonderful world!"
4. I will not insist that things are impossible because I can-
not accomplish them. I have to learn to be a team member
and to inspire others, and to make them feel important by
attentively listening to them. Nothing that is truly great
can be achieved in our lifetime, says Reinhold Niebuhr,
therefore, we must be saved by hope. Nothing that is true
or beautiful or good makes complete sense on any one day
of history; therefore, we have to be saved by faith. Nothing
we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone;
therefore, we are saved by love.
5. I will not be compelled by others to believe or to live as
they do. In other words, I will exercise great confidence in
myself and in my faith. In lifes race, I want to compete
only with my own past records. An inner-directed person
doesnt always look to others for leadership and certainly
doesnt try to please others all the time.
6. The last guideline is I will not neglect to develop or to re-
fine my mind nor forget the habit of reading and studying
daily. Read, listen to, and attend anything available to
continue your development plan.
Wright
Im always interested in how people arrive at a successful life. Can
you tell our readers a little about your early years and what princi-
ples were forged into your childhood?
Mitchell
This gets a little personal. I am truly a mountain boy. My mother
birthed thirteen children. I was born on Lower Kings Creek in
Letcher County, Kentucky. I attended a two-room grade school and
carried my lunch in a pail.
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
107
Later, I spent two years in orphanages. (That story will be told in
The Rocks Come with the Farm.) I remember some of the good times,
of coursethe sound of that out-of-tune piano accompanying us when
we sang Froggy Went ACourtin, the glasses of milk and gingerbread
cookies we received on Sunday afternoons, and the pie socials. I can
still hear the old mountain songs, fiddles, banjos, the cloggers, and
the auctioneer. Every man was expected to bid on his wifes or girl-
friends pies and to give the money as a donation. Every orphan was
invited to share a delicious homemade meal with a community fam-
ily.
However, the most vivid memory of Buckhorn Orphanage is the
long, cold winter nights in a narrow bunk bed on the second floor of
the wood-framed dormitory. A little seven-year-old boy awakes shiv-
ering, crying, and saying, June Bug, June Bug, Im cold. My big
brother, all of twelve years old, would roll out of the top bunk, cover
me up with one of his worn quilts and find an old coat or something
else to wrap himself in. Then I would fall asleep, warm and loved.
Wright
What a story. What lessons of success did you learn from these
childhood experiences?
Mitchell
I embraced five success principles that still lead me today:
1. We need to lead by example and to give more than we take.
June Bug died when he was thirty years of age from
Hodgkins Disease, so naturally the scripture means a
great deal to me that says, Greater love hath no man
than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends [or a
brother] (John 15:13 KJV).
2. I learned that you can choose to be successful.
3. I learned the rocks come with the farm. I now live in beau-
tiful Lexington, Kentucky. Every acre of the Bluegrass is
sitting on solid limestone, which comes in layers. You can
either hate it or you can make these world famous rock
fences. It all depends on your attitude. The rocks come
with the farm means you work with what you have. You
can change lives. You can transform a malingering, out-of-
touch, self-obsessed company into a profitable cutting-
edge powerhouse.
Masters of Success
108
4. I also learned this great principle: let no one steal your joy.
Hard times are inevitable but misery is an option, says
Pastor Wayne Smith. I love to work and I love my work; I
dont apologize that my wagon stays full. I dont want
anyone to steal my joy.
5. I am humbled by success. Hanging on one wall in my of-
fice is a picture of our family as children standing in front
of my dads board and batten store next to our four-room
home; on another wall hangs my accolades.
Wright
You are known as a proven motivator and excellent instructor. Do
you think that you have a responsibility to pass the knowledge you
have obtained on to the next generation and your industry, or is it
simply part of your job?
Mitchell
It is certainly not only a part of my job, David. I am committed to
teaching and to instructing. I experience as much joy teaching as I do
closing real estate transactions. I believe that we must pass on the
knowledge. I wish we could pass on our wisdom and help young pro-
fessional sales leaders smooth out the inevitably volatile learning
curve.
There is a great deal of remodeling going on in the real estate in-
dustry.
Todays prospects have a new way of doing business; they have a
new number and it starts with www.com.
Todays relationships are built with new materials. Its no longer,
What can I sell you? Todays question is, What does it take for me
to build a sustainable and profitable relationship with you? The
greatest marketing plan in the world that does not result in a sale for
you and a profit for me is nothing but a blueprint for disaster and an
invitation for unhappiness.
Todays trust is not yesterdays handshake. We have to teach our
new sales leaders about the renewed value of trust. The foundations
of todays trust are transparency, accuracy, and consistency. The
building blocks for life-long clients are confidentiality, obedience, loy-
alty, disclosure, accountability, and extraordinary care.
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
109
Wright
Are there any characteristics that must be present in the lives of
successful people? In other words, do people have to be before they
have?
Mitchell
That is a good question. I believe that in order to be successful you
have to:
Be present. So help me, sixty percent of success is showing
upconsistently, faithfully, and completely. Look your
client in the eye, pick an eye, stay focused, and quit look-
ing for the next quick deal.
Be resilient. Redefine the rejection and focus on the re-
ward. You dont stay down or you dont stay around people
who bring you down.
Be attentive to detail. Every day of my life, I live by three
wordsread every word. It prevents many lawsuits.
Be faithful to your calling. No regrets, no reserves, and no
retreats. This is my post. I am going to find my acres of
diamonds right here.
Be thankful. Learn an uplifting prayer and pray it daily.
Send at least two personally signed thank you notes daily.
Be ready. You must be prepared. Early on I read a book
by Dr. Billy Graham entitled, World Aflame. He stated he
had only one regretthat he did not know how far-
reaching his opportunities and influence would be or he
would have become better educated to be better prepared.
Wright
Lets talk about success and strategies related to lifes pursuits.
Will you share with our readers what you think is the single most
important step to experiencing material, proclaimed, or personal suc-
cess?
Mitchell
That is an easy one for me. I believe you have to make the right
decisions.
Wright
You must have in place a system or a guide to your decision-
making?
Masters of Success
110
Mitchell
Here are my seven steps to successful decision-making.

1. Is it good? ..................................................The Smell Test
2. Is it legal?..................................................The Jail Test
3. What if it were published? .......................The Newspaper Test
4. Is it ethical?...............................................The Peers Test
5. Does it make life better? ..........................The Stress Test
6. Does it make me money?..........................The Profit Test
7. Does it take me where I want to go?.The Map Test
I would like to tell you a little about each one of these.

Is it good? The Smell Test: Is it for the greater good; does it take you
from good to great as author Jim Collins challenges?

Is it legal? The Jail Test: I am not sure but I think all prison stripes
are some shade of gray. We need to learn what is black and white out
there.

What if were published? The Newspaper Test: Early in my real estate
career someone recorded all conversations that were going on in a
house I was showing; that changed my behavior. Now I act as though
everything I am saying is being bugged and photographed. What God
overlooks, the paparazzi print.

Is it ethical? The Peer Test: In our real estate profession, there are
ethics and now standards of practicerules of behavior that guide
our interactions with clients and peers. I would rather be Chairman
of, rather than the defendant before, the Professional Standards
Committee.

Does it make my life better? The Stress Test: There has to be a bal-
ance.

Does it make me money? The Profit Test: You cant go broke making a
profit, but you can find yourself in need with a little too much greed.

Does it take me where I want go? The Map Test: Opportunity only
knocks once is a myth!
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
111
Wright
Explain the opportunity myth or any other challenges that pas-
sionate and hard-working sales leaders must demystify.
Mitchell
A challenge facing our young sales leaders today is the reality that
opportunity just keeps knocking. Opportunity is like a busthere is
a different one every thirty minutes. The key is for us to get on the
specific bus that will take us where we really want to go. Todays
tragedy is too much peanut butter and jam, i.e., too many opportuni-
ties.
Researchers set up a table of thirty different jams in front of a
gourmet market in California. Three percent of the shoppers who
stopped at the table bought a jar. When they displayed six instead of
thirty jams, thirty percent bought. In jam selections, as with many
other opportunities, sometimes too many choices can cause brain lock.
In real estate, we are entering our ninth year of record growth, re-
cord sales, and dollars earned. We must keep focused and apply some
opportunity management that ensures we are still headed to our cho-
sen destination even if we did change buses.
Another challenge is the just add water myth. I believe that
there is such a thing as overnight successit just takes twenty years
to get there. We have proof of it every place we turn.
I read this wonderful little article in Farmer, a magazine for us
John Deere tractor owners. The author said if you lift the lid off a pot
of jasmine rice, as hard as you may try, you cant keep your mouth
from watering. That nutty aroma can fill a room in moments and set
the appetite on fire. Its not hard to see why the appeal of jasmine rice
is so popular. It was no small feat to figure out the secret of that great
aroma. In fact, a guy named Robert Henry and his research team at
Australias Southern Cross University in New South Wales pored
over four hundred million DNA sequences to find the best aroma. I
dont believe in the just add water syndrome. Success comes to the
persistent.
Todays third challenge for sales leaders is the vertical versus the
horizontal rule. Image building is restrictively expensive. Successful
agents only engage in effective and efficient personal promotion
strategies. Find a niche; go vertical instead of horizontal. Find a spe-
cific area of expertise that is generally under-serviced, that is
unprotected, and own it! Raise the barriers of that niche so no one can
easily climb them. I am privileged to be involved in beautiful subdivi-
Masters of Success
112
sion developments. Is there any correlation between the fact that I
have tried to attend every monthly planning and zoning meeting for
over fifteen years?
Wright
If I could wave a magic wand and grant you any two wishes for the
future, what would you wish for?
Mitchell
The first one is easy. I would wish for a breakthrough cancer cure
for Hodgkins Disease, in the name of my dear brother. Second, Id
wish my book, The Rocks Come with the Farm, were already in print.
Wright
As we close this interview, do you have any last thoughts that you
would like to share with our readers that would help them to be bet-
ter, happier, or even more successful?
Mitchell
My parting thought comes from a most treasured personal note I
have received. I would wish this blessing for all: Your enthusiasm is
so hard to contain that we all get to share in its overflowing. You in-
spire others to be motivated and to take the time to inventory their
own lives. God truly uses you.
Wright
What an interesting conversation. Its always great to talk with
you, Jonah. I have always enjoyed each of our conversations.
Today we have been talking with Jonah Mitchell, who has been a
licensed Realtor since 1974. He is a national speaker and consult-
ant, and president of Jonah Mitchell Speaker & Seminar Leader. As
we have found out today, he knows a lot about successbecause in
my definition Jonah Mitchell is success.
Thank you so much, Jonah, for being with us today on Masters of
Success.
Mitchell
And thank you, David.
Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
113
About Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
Jonah Mitchell has earned the reputation as a master Realtor, Bro-
ker, and Developer; marketing upscale subdivisions is his genius. He
is President of Jonah Mitchell Real Estate & Auction Group. Jonahs
heritage in majestic Eastern Kentucky impressed upon him that life
is beautiful. As one of thirteen children, he learned the value of a bal-
anced life, and time in an orphanage taught him that the rocks come
with the farm. His extensive education schooled him in prudent and
practical decision-making. Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D., is a national
speaker, and expert witness for real estate litigation, consultant, and
author. In this chapter, Jonah shared with you his decision-making
model, as well as the four seasons and the three forms of success. You
will be enrolled in the Mitchells School of Lessons Learned.

Jonah Mitchell, Ph.D.
Email: [email protected]

114

115
Chapter Eight
JACK CANFIELD
THE INTERVIEW
David E. Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Jack Canfield. You probably know him
as the founder and co-creator of the New York Times number one
best-selling Chicken Soup for the Soul book series, which currently
has thirty-five titles and seventy-eight million copies in print in over
thirty-two languages. Jacks background includes a Batchelors from
Harvard, a Masters from the University of Massachusetts and an
Honorary Doctorate from the University of Santa Monica. He has
been a high school and university teacher, a workshop facilitator, a
psychotherapist, and for the past twenty-five years, a leading author-
ity in the area of self-esteem and personal development.
Jack Canfield, welcome to Masters of Success!
Jack Canfield (Canfield)
Thank you David. Its great to be with you.
Masters of Success
116
Wright
I talked with Mark Victor Hansen a few days ago. He gave you full
credit for coming up with the idea of the Chicken Soup series. Obvi-
ously its made you an internationally known personality. Other than
recognition, has the series changed you personally and if so, how?
Canfield
I would say that it has and I think in a couple of ways. Number
one, I read stories all day long of people whove overcome what would
feel like insurmountable obstacles. For example we just did a book
Chicken Soup for the Unsinkable Soul. Theres a story in there about
a single mother with three daughters. She got a disease and she had
to have both of her hands and both of her feet amputated. She got
prosthetic devices and was able to learn how to use them so she could
cook, drive the car, brush her daughters hair, get a job, etc. I read
that and I think, God, what would I ever have to complain and whine
and moan about? So I think at one level its just given me a great
sense of gratitude and appreciation for everything I have and made
me less irritable about the little things.
I think the other thing thats happened for me personally is my
sphere of influence has changed. By that I mean, for example, a cou-
ple of years ago I was asked to be the keynote speaker for the
Womens Congressional Caucus. The Congressional Caucus includes
women in Congress, Senators, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors
in America.
I asked, What do you want me to talk aboutwhat topic?
Whatever you think we need to know to be better legislators, was
the reply.
And I thought, Wow! They want me to tell them about what laws
they should be making and what would make a better culture?
Well, that wouldnt have happened if our books hadnt come out
and I hadnt become famous. I think I get to play with people at a
higher level and have more influence in the world. Thats important
to me because my life purpose is inspiring and empowering people to
live their highest vision so the world works for everybody. I get to do
that on a much bigger level than when I was just a high school
teacher back in Chicago.
Wright
I think one of the powerful components of that book series is that
you can read a positive story in just a few minutes. You can also come
Jack Canfield
117
back and revisit it. I know my daughter who is thirteen now has three
of the books and she just reads them interchangeably. Sometimes I go
in her bedroom and shell be crying and reading one of them. Other
times shell be laughing, so they really are chicken soup for the soul,
arent they?
Canfield
They really are. In fact we have four books in the Teenage Soul se-
ries now and a new one coming out at the end of this year. We have a
new book called Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul and the Tough
Stuff. Its all about dealing with parents divorces, teachers who dont
understand you, boyfriends who drink and drive, and stuff like that.
I have a son whos eleven and he has twelve-year-old friend (a
girl). I asked my sons friend, Why do you like this book?
She said, You know, whenever Im feeling down I read it; it makes
me cry and I feel better. Some of the stories make me laugh and some
of the stories make me feel more responsible for my life. But basically
I just feel like Im not alone.
One of the people I work with recently said that the books are like
a support group between the covers of a book. People can read about
others experiences and realize theyre not the only one going through
something.
Wright
Jack, with our Masters of Success publication were trying to en-
courage people in our audience to be better, to live better, and be
more fulfilled by listening to the examples of our guests. Is there any-
thing or anyone in your life who has made a difference for you and
helped you to become a better person?
Canfield
Yes and we could do ten shows just on that. Im influenced by peo-
ple all the time. If I were to go way back Id have to say one of the key
influences in my life was Jesse Jackson when he was still a minister
in Chicago. I was teaching in an all black high school there and I
went to Jesse Jacksons church with a friend one time. What hap-
pened for me was I saw somebody with a vision. (This was before
Martin Luther King was killed and Jesse was of the lieutenants in his
organization.) I just saw people trying to make the world work better
for a certain segment of the population. I was inspired by that kind of
visionary belief that its possible to make change.
Masters of Success
118
Then later John F. Kennedy was a hero of mine. I was very much
inspired by him.
Later, a therapist by the name of Robert Resnick that I had for
two years was an inspiration for me. He taught me a little formula
called E + R = O. That stands for Events plus Response equals Out-
come. He said, If you dont like your outcomes quit blaming the
events and start changing your responses. One of his favorite
phrases was, If the grass on the other side of the fence looks greener,
start watering your own lawn more.
I think it helped me get off of any kind of self-pity I might have
had because I had parents who were alcoholics. Its very easy to
blame them for my life not working. They werent real successful or
rich and I was surrounded by people who were. I felt like, God, what
if Id had parents like they had? I could have been a lot better. He
just got me off that whole notion and made me realize the hand you
were dealt is the hand youve got to play and take responsibility for
who you are and quit complaining and blaming others and get on
with your life. That was a turning point for me.
Id say the last person who really affected me big time was a guy
named W. Clement Stone who was a self-made multi-millionaire in
Chicago. He taught me that success is not a four-letter word, its
nothing to be ashamed of and you ought to go for it. He said, The
best thing you can do for the poor is not be one of them. Be a model
for what it is to live a successful life. So I learned from him the prin-
ciples of success and thats what Ive been teaching now for the last
almost thirty years.
Wright
He was the entrepreneur in the insurance industry, wasnt he?
Canfield
He was. He had combined insurance and when I worked for him
he was worth six hundred million dollars. That was before the
dot.com millionaires came along in Silicon Valley. He just knew more
about success. He was a good friend of Napoleon Hill who wrote
Think and Grow Rich. He was a fabulous mentor. I really learned a
lot from him.
Wright
I miss some of the men I listened to when I was a young salesman
coming up and he was one of them. Napoleon Hill was another one
Jack Canfield
119
and Dr. Pealeall of their writings made me who I am today. Im
glad that I got that opportunity.
Canfield
One speaker whose name you probably will remember, Charlie
Tremendous Jones, says, Who we are is a result of the books we
read and the people we hang out with. I think thats so true and
thats why I tell people, If you want to have high self-esteem hang
out with people with high self-esteem. If you want to be more spiri-
tual hang out with spiritual people. Were always telling our
children, Dont hang out with those kids. The reason we dont want
them to associate with certain kinds of people is we know how influ-
ential people are with each other. I think we need to give ourselves
the same advice. Who are we hanging out with? We can hang out
with them in books, cassette tapes, CDs, radio shows like yours, and
in person.
Wright
One of my favorites was a fellow named Bill Gove from Florida. I
talked with him about three or four years ago; hes retired now. His
mind is still as quick as it ever was. I thought he was one of the
greatest speakers I had ever heard.
What do you think makes up a great mentor? In other words, are
there characteristics that mentors seem to have in common?
Canfield
I think there are two obvious ones. One, I think they have to have
the time to do it and two, the willingness to do it. And then three, I
think they need to be someone who is doing something you want to
do.
W. Clement Stone used to tell me, If you want to be rich hang out
with rich people. Watch what they do, eat what they eat, dress the
way they dress. Try it on. He wasnt suggesting that I give up my
authentic self, but he was pointing out that they probably have habits
I didnt have. His advice was to study themstudy the people who
are already like you. I always ask salespeople in an organization,
Who are the top two or three in your organization? I tell them to
start taking them out to lunch and dinner and for a drink and finding
out what they do. Ask them, Whats your secret? Nine times out of
ten theyll be willing to tell you.
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It goes back to what we said earlier about asking. Ill go into cor-
porations and Ill say, Who are the top ten people?
Theyll all tell me and Ill say, Did you ever ask them what they
do that is different than what you do?
They reply, No.
Why not?
Well they might not want to tell me.
How do you know? Did you ever ask them? All they can do is say
no. Youll be no worse off than you are now.
So I think with mentors you just look at people who seem to be liv-
ing the life you want to live and achieving the results you want to
achieve. And then what we tell them in our book is, when you ap-
proach a mentor theyre probably busy and successful and so they
havent got a lot of time. Just ask, Can I talk to you for ten minutes
every month? If I know its only going to be ten minutes Ill probably
say yes. The neat thing is if I like you Ill always give you more than
ten minutes, but that ten minutes gets me in the door.
Wright
In the future are there any more Jack Canfield books authored
singularly?
Canfield
Yes, Im working on two books right now. Ones called E + R = O
which is that little formula I told you about earlier. I just feel I want
to get that out there because every time I give a speech and talk
about that the whole room gets so quiet you can hear a pin drop. I can
tell that people are really getting value.
Then Im going to do a series of books on the principles of success.
Ive got about 150 of them that Ive identified over the years. I have a
book down the road I want to do thats called No More Put-Downs
which is a book probably aimed mostly at parents, teachers, and
managers. Theres a culture we have now of put-down humor whether
its Married With Children or All in the Familytheres that
characteristic of macho put-down humor. Theres research now thats
showing how bad it is for kids self-esteem, and for co-workers and for
athletes (when the coaches do it) so I want to get that message out
there as well.
Wright
Its really not that funny, is it?
Jack Canfield
121
Canfield
No. Well laugh it off because we dont want to look like were a
wimp but underneath were hurt. The research now shows that youre
better off breaking a childs bones than you are breaking their spirit.
A bone will heal much more quickly than their emotional spirit will.
Wright
I remember recently reading a survey where people listed the top
five people who had influenced them in their lives. Ive tried it on a
couple of groups at church and other places. In my case (and in the
survey thats running) I found that about three out of peoples top five
mentors are always teachers. I wonder if thats going to be the same
in the next decade.
Canfield
I think probably because as children were in our most formative
years. We actually spend more time with our teachers than we do
with our parents. Research shows that the average parent only inter-
acts verbally with each of their children only about eight and a half
minutes a day. Yet at school youre interacting with your teacher for
anywhere from six to eight hours, depending on how long the school
day is. This includes interaction with coaches, chorus directors, etc.
I think that in almost everybodys life theres been that one
teacher who loved them as a human being, not just as a student
some person they were supposed to fill full of history and English.
And that person believed in them and inspired them.
Les Brown is one of the great motivational speakers in the world.
If it hadnt been for one teacher who said, I think you can do more
than be in a special ed. class; I think youre the one, hed probably
still be cutting grass in the median strip of the highways in Florida
instead of a successful presenter who can receive $35,000 as a key-
note speaker.
Wright
I had a conversation one time with Les when he was talking about
this wonderful teacher who discovered he was dyslexic. Everybody
else called him dumb but this one lady took him under her wing and
had him tested. His entire life changed because of her interest in him.
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Canfield
Im on the board of advisors of the Dyslexic Awareness Resource
Center here in Santa Barbara. The reason is because I taught at a
high school with a lot of kids who were considered at-risk. They
were kids who would end up in gangs and so forth.
What we found over and over was that about seventy-eight per-
cent of all the kids in the juvenile detention centers in Chicago were
kids who had learning disabilitiesprimarily dyslexiabut there
were others as well. They were never diagnosed and they werent do-
ing well in school so theyd drop out. As soon as you drop out of school
you become subject to the influence of gangs and other kinds of crimi-
nal and drug linked activities.
If these kids had just been diagnosed earlier, wed have probably
gotten rid of half of the juvenile crime in America because there are a
lot of really good programs that can teach dyslexics to read and so
forth.
Wright
My wife is a teacher and she brings home stories that are heart-
breaking about parents not being as concerned about their children
as they used to be or not as helpful as they used to be. Did you find
that to be a problem when you were teaching?
Canfield
It depends on what kind of district youre in. If its a poor district
the parents could be drugged out, on alcohol, and basically just not
available. If youre in a really high rent district the parents are not
available because theyre both working and coming home tired, or
theyre jet-setters, or theyre working late at the office because theyre
workaholics. Sometimes it really takes two paychecks to pay the rent
anymore. I find that the majority of parents care but often they dont
know what to do. They dont know how to discipline their children.
They dont know how to help them with their homework. Theyre not
passing on skills that they never got. Unfortunately the trend tends
to be like a chain letter. The people with the least amount of skills
tend to have the most number of children. The other thing is you get
crack babies. In Los Angeles one out of every ten babies born is a
crack baby.
Wright
Thats unbelievable.
Jack Canfield
123
Canfield
Yes and another statistic shows that by the time theyre twelve
years old, fifty percent of the kids in the U.S. have started experi-
menting with alcohol. I see a lot of that in the Bible belt. You dont
see the big city, urban designer drugs; but there is a lot of alcoholism.
Another thing you get, unfortunately, is a lot of familial violencea
lot of kids getting beat up and hit, parents who drink and then ex-
plode; as we talked about earlier, child abuse and sexual abuseyou
see a lot of that.
Wright
Most people are fascinated by these television shows about being a
survivor. What has been the greatest comeback that you have made
from adversity in your career or in your life?
Canfield
You know its funny, I dont think Ive had a lot of major failures
and setbacks where I had to start over. My lifes been kind of on an
intentional curve. But I do have a lot of challenges. Mark and I are
always setting goals that challenge us. We always say, The purpose
of setting a really big goal is not so that you can achieve it so much,
but its who you become in the process of achieving it.
A friend of mine, Jim Rose, says, You want to set goals big
enough so that in the process of achieving them you become someone
worth being.
I think that to be a millionaire is nice but so what? People make
the money and then they lose it. People get the big houses and they
burn down or Silicon Valley goes belly up and all of a sudden they
dont have a big house anymore. But who you became in the process
of learning how to do that can never be taken away from you.
What we do is we constantly put big challenges in front of us.
Right now we have a book coming out in a month called Chicken Soup
for the Teachers Soul. Youll have to make sure to get a copy for your
wife. I was a teacher and I was a teacher trainer for years. But in the
last seven years, because of the success of the Chicken Soup books, I
havent been in the education world that much. Ive got to go out and
relearn how I market to that world.
I met with a Superintendent of Schools. I met with a guy named
Jason Dorsey whos one of the number one consultants in the world in
that area. I found out who has the best-selling book in that area. I sat
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124
down with his wife for a day and talked about her marketing ap-
proaches.
So I believe that if you face any kind of adversity, whether its you
lose your job, your husband dies, you get divorced, youre in an acci-
dent like Christopher Reeves and you become paralyzed, or whatever,
you simply do what you have to do. You find people who have already
handled this and how they did it. You find out either from their
books, or from their tapes, or by talking to them, or interviewing
them, and you get the support you need to get through it. Whether its
a counselor in your church or you go on a retreat or you read the Bi-
ble, you do something that gives you the support you need to get to
the other end.
You also have to know what the end you want is. Do you want to
be remarried? Do you just want to have a job and be a single mom?
What is it? You need to reach out and ask for support; I think people
really like to help other people. Theyre not always available because
sometimes theyre going through it themselves; but theres always
someone with a helping hand. Often I think we let our pride get in
the way. We let our stubbornness get in the way. We let our belief in
how the world should be get in our way instead of dealing with how
the world is. When we get that out of the way then we can start doing
that which we need to do to get where we need to go.
Wright
If you could have a platform and tell our audience something you
feel that would help or encourage them, what would you say?
Canfield
Id say number one, believe in yourself, believe in your dreams,
and trust your feelings. I think too many people are trained wrong
when theyre little kids. For instance, theyre mad at their daddy and
theyre told, Youre not mad at your Daddy.
They say, Gee, I thought I was.
Or you say, Thats going to hurt.
The doctor says, No its not. Then he or she gives you the shot
and it hurts.
The doctor says, See, that didnt hurt, did it?
The result is you start not to trust yourself.
Or you ask your mom, Are you upset?
Your mom says, No, but she really is. So you stop learning to
trust your perception.
Jack Canfield
125
I tell the story over and over there are hundreds of people Ive met
whove come from upper class families where they make big incomes
and the dads a doctor, and the kid wants to be a mechanic and work
in an auto shop because thats what he loves. The family says, Thats
beneath us. You cant do that. So the kid ends up being an anesthe-
siologist killing three people because hes not paying attention. What
he really wants to do is tinker with cars.
I tell people youve got to trust your own feelingsyour own
motivations, what turns you on, what you want to do, what makes
you feel goodand quit worrying about what other people say, think,
or want for you. Decide what you want for yourself and then do what
you need to do to go about getting it. It takes work.
I always tell people that I read a book a week minimum and at the
end of the year Ive read fifty-two books. Were talking about profes-
sional books, books on self-help, finances, psychology, parenting, and
so forth. At the end of ten years youve read 520 books. That puts me
in the top one percent of people knowing stuff in this country. But
most people are spending their time watching television.
W. Clement Stone told me when I went to work for him, I want
you to cut out one hour a day of television.
Okay, what do I do with it? I asked him.
He said, Read.
He told me what kind of stuff to read. He said, At the end of a
year youll have spent 365 hours reading. Divide that by a forty-hour
work week and thats nine and half weeks of education every year.
I thought, Wow! Thats two months. Its like going back to sum-
mer school. As a result of that I have close to 8,000 books in my
library.
The reason Im on your show instead of someone elses is that peo-
ple like me, Jim Rohn, Les Brown, and you read a lot. We listen to
tapes and we go to those seminars. Thats why were the people with
the information. I always say that your raise becomes effective when
you do. Youll become more effective as you gain more skills, more
insight, and more knowledge.
Wright
Jack, I have watched your career for over a decade and your ac-
complishments are just outstanding. But your humanitarian efforts
are really what impress me. I think that youre doing great things,
not only in California, but also all over the country.
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126
Canfield
Its true. In addition to all of the work we do, we pick one to three
charities. Weve given away over six million dollars in the last eight
years, along with our publisher who matches every penny we give
away. Weve planted over a million trees in Yosemite National Park.
Weve paid for hundreds of thousands of cataract operations in third
world countries. Weve contributed to the Red Cross, the Humane So-
ciety, and on it goes. It feels like a real blessing to be able to make
that kind of a contribution in the world.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Jack Canfield, the founder and
co-creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul book series, which cur-
rently has thirty-five titles and Ill have to update this. It was fifty-
three million. How many has it been now, Jack?
Canfield
Were almost up to seventy-eight million. We have a book coming
out in just a couple of weeks called Chicken Soup for the Soul of
America. Its all stories that grew out of 9/11its a real healing book
for our nation. I would encourage your listeners to get themselves a
copy and share it with their families.
Wright
I will stand in line to get one of those. Thank you so much for be-
ing with us today.
Jack Canfield
127
About Jack Canfield
Jack Canfield is one of America's leading experts on developing self esteem
and peak performance. A dynamic and entertaining speaker, as well as a
highly sought-after trainer, he has a wonderful ability to inform and inspire
audiences toward developing their own human potential and personal effec-
tiveness. Jack Canfield is most well known for the Chicken Soup for the Soul
series, which he co-authored with Mark Victor Hansen, and for his audio pro-
grams about building high self-esteem. Jack is the founder of Self-Esteem
Seminars, located in Santa Barbara, California, which trains entrepreneurs,
educators, corporate leaders and employees how to accelerate the achieve-
ment of their personal and professional goals. Jack is also the founder of The
Foundation for Self Esteem, located in Culver City, California, which pro-
vides self-esteem resources and training to social workers, welfare recipients
and human resource professionals. Jack graduated from Harvard in 1966,
received his M.E. degree at the university of Massachusetts in 1973, and an
Honorary Doctorate from the University of Santa Monica. He has been a high
school and university teacher, a workshop facilitator, a psychotherapist, and
for the past thirty years, a leading authority in the area of self-esteem and
personal development. As a result of his work with prisoners, welfare recipi-
ents, and inner-city youth, Jack was appointed by the state legislature to the
California Task Force to Promote Self-Esteem and Personal and Social Re-
sponsibility. He also served on the board of trustees of the National Council
for Self-Esteem.

Jack Canfield
P.O. Box 30880
Santa Barbara, CA 93130
Email: [email protected]


128

129
Chapter Nine
LINDA LARSEN
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Linda Larsen is the founder and CEO of a successful communica-
tions company she started over sixteen years ago. She is passionately
committed to helping people upgrade their thinking, improve their
communication, and increase their bottom line. More than that, she is
willing to do whatever it takes to get her message across and make it
stick.
Lindas passion and spontaneous humor stems from over twenty
years as a professional actress in film, television, and on stage. Her
experience and training (she holds an undergraduate degree in Be-
havioral Sciences from the University of Florida and a Master of Fine
Arts Degree from Florida State University) give her the unique abil-
ity to combine the entertaining, dynamic aspects of live theater with
practical, high value content to produce lasting, positive changes.
In 1988 she began working exclusively with trial attorneys. As a
highly respected trial consultant, she continues to provide CLE train-
ing for lawyers, helping them communicate more effectively and
persuasively in the high stakes, high stress environment of the court-
room.
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130
She is the author of the best selling audio program, 12 Secrets to
High Self-Esteem, the critically acclaimed book, True Power, and
Linda Larsens Power Tips. She has also written or been featured in
over 100 articles in such publications as Investors Business Daily, the
Chicago Tribune, Women In Business, Personal Excellence,
CBSHealthWatch.com, and MSN.com, among others.
Linda, welcome to Masters of Success.
Linda Larsen (Larsen)
Thank you, David.
Wright
Since were talking about success, would you tell us how you de-
fine it?
Larsen
I think at its most basic level success is the ability to achieve what
it is that you set out to achieve, and what you set out to achieve is up
to you. For me, its about consciously growing and learning, expand-
ing my capacity to give love, and making a positive difference for
others.
And in some curiously ironic way, this definition doesnt tell the
whole story. What I have found is that like almost everyone else on
the planet, the things I have chosen to pursue have no arrival date.
They will forever be creating their own space for expansion. I dont
expect to wake up one day and say, Hooray! I have now successfully
grown and learned a bunch of stuff. Im finished! Bring on the marga-
ritas!
I think where we get into troubleand this has certainly been
true for me in the pastis when we believe that there is some success
destination like, when we get that house, that car, that level of in-
comethose symbols of successthen we will have arrived and we
can coast after that. What an illusive, exhausting, deceptive pursuit
that is! I believe we just have to understand that the arrival date,
place, and experience are quite ephemeral and cannot be contained.
Wright
I know you are an international keynote presenter, but I under-
stand you resisted the term motivational speaker for the longest
time. Why is that?
Linda Larsen
131
Larsen
I think most people have a misconception about what the term
motivation really means. When most people think of a motivational
speaker, they imagine someone who comes in and creates a pump
and hype experienceno real valuejust a fun time. xxxThey be-
lieve theyll get all fired up, but then theyll go back to life as usual
with the same set of problems they had when they walked into the
room. And I can certainly understand why theyd think that, because
that was my perception for a long time.
I no longer hold that definition to be accurate. I think that without
motivation we dont have much chance of being successful at anything
we want to accomplish. If I cant motivate myself to get up in the
morning, then Im going to have a bit of a problem. If I want to
achieve more but cant motivate myself to take action, then Im going
to be stuck with the status quo forever. Motivation is the driving force
behind all of our successes in life.
And yes, I am a motivational speaker, and I take my job very, very
seriously. But the fact is that no one can motivate someone else to do
anything. I cannot motivate you. What I can do is set up the kind of
environment conducive to self-motivation; but I cant motivate anyone
to do anything.
You might be thinking, Wait a minute. If I put a gun to your head
and said, clean up the house or Ill kill you, wouldnt that motivate
you to take action? Well, only if I wanted to live. If I didnt want to
live, you couldnt physically move my hands and feet and make me
clean up the house. You cant motivate me to do thatonly I can.
So it comes down to this. I believe that it is my responsibility as a
motivational speaker to first find out what the issues of my partici-
pants are, and then to set up the kind of learning environment that is
energizing and inspiring. Next Ive got to come up with some great
ideas to help them resolve their issues, and finally, present them in a
fun, interactive, and entertaining way so that everyone can remember
and apply them later.
Thats my job. And I love it.
Wright
You say theres always one thing you address in your keynote
presentations, no matter what the topic. What is that and why do you
always talk about it?
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132
Larsen
Have you ever had this experience? You attended a great seminar
or read an amazing book, and thought, Wow! This is itthe answer I
have been looking for! My life is now whole, complete, and satisfied!
Then, three weeks later, you find that nothing in your life has
changed. What happened? You were very motivated (theres that
term again) to make a change, you knew what you should do and how
to do it, but you didnt do it. Dont you wonder why that is?
In my work as a trial consultant I stumbled across some very in-
teresting information published by Dr. John Bargh, Professor of
Psychology at Yale University. His research focuses on the question,
How much free will do we really have? He wanted to know the ex-
tent to which any and all social psychological phenomenaattitudes,
evaluations, emotions, impressions, motivations, and social behav-
ioroccur non-consciously (sic) and automatically. And the results
were astonishing. Some of his studies, and those of his constituents,
suggest that as much as 99.44 percent of our behaviors are automatic
and unthinking. Wow!
That has profound implications for us! It explains why we may
hear about a good idea and then never try it, or try it once, and then
return immediately to the way weve always done things. It explains
why we continue some ineffective action, or attitude, or behavior,
even when it clearly doesnt serve us. We are just simply wired to
keep on doing what we have always done.
I think this is very exciting information. If I know that every force
in the universe is going to pull me back into my comfortable little,
self-limiting, miserable rut, then I know what I have to do to over-
come thatI have to get conscious and work hard! I have to learn a
new skill and then practice it like crazy until it becomes automatic
and unthinking.
So, I let every audience I speak to know first of all what they are
going to be up against when they walk out of the room when Im done.
That way, they are aware of what they have to do to remedy this
natural tendency. Its all about, here are some really great ideas,
heres whats going to happen when you try to apply them, and heres
what you can do to actually make them happen.
Wright
Can you give me a specific example of how this might manifest for
someone and how they could overcome the tendency to slip back into
those automatic behaviors?
Linda Larsen
133
Larsen
Everyone would agree that the most effective people we know have
really excellent communication skills. But unfortunately, most of us
didnt get a lot of training in this arena. We learned how to communi-
cate from our well-meaning parents, who learned from their parents.
Our parents and grandparents may have all been told that, If you
cant say something nice, dont say anything at all, or that you
should only speak when spoken to. And those strategies are ex-
tremely counterproductive both personally and professionally. I
would imagine that there were some folks at Enron who suspected
early on what was happening but chose to adhere to those limiting
beliefs. You can see where all that ended up.
So, lets say you want to become a very good communicator, but
historically you allowed your emotions to get the best of you. Maybe it
was a lack of confidence, or self-doubt or whatever, but frequently,
when you wanted to speak up at a meeting, offer an idea, or question
someone elses suggestion, you just kept silent. Heres what you could
do:
1. Fully own your automatic behavior in this arena, and take
full responsibility for having chosen this ineffective strategy.
You cant let something go if you wont acknowledge that
you have it.
2. Find a coacha co-worker, trusted colleague, or family
membersomeone you believe has very good communica-
tion skills and is committed to your success. Tell her what
you want to accomplish. Give your coach full permission to
give you straight feedback when she notices you clam up.
Also, use her to practice with. Got a big meeting coming up?
Rehearse what you are going to say. Allow your coach to
help you shape your thoughts in a clear, concise manner.
3. Be aware! In the meetingduring those moments before you
actually get to try out your new skillsevery instinct in
your body will want to superglue your mouth shut. Just no-
tice that feeling and let it go.
4. Keep breathing fullythis can sharpen your focus, help you
slow down, and fully support your voice. It will also help you
keep still.
5. Open your mouth and speak. Look people straight in the eye,
and when you have said what you want to say, shut-eth (sic)
your mouth. One of our biggest tendencies when we are
nervous is to keep on talking after our point has been made.
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134
And thats just one example. Maybe your problem is that you have
an intimidating manner that puts people off, or you interrupt others,
or talk about yourself too much, or dont exercise, or dont eat right.
The list could go on and on. This strategy would work great with any
habitual behavior that doesnt serve you, if you are committed to
change.
Wright
You mentioned emotionsand for many people they seem to have
a mind of their ownhow can we control our emotions when neces-
sary?
Larsen
And dont you wish more people you encounter during the day had
that ability? Well, the truth is that if I cant maintain a calm state in
the face of danger, a difficult person, or a boss whos screaming at me,
I can create a greater problem than the one that already exists. But
emotions are a prime player in almost every area of our lives, not just
when theres a challenge.
We could spend a year on this thing called emotion and never
scratch the surface, but here are a few things Ive discovered.
First of all, in terms of decision-making, emotions are king (or
queen). When I was working primarily as a trial consultant, I focused
my research on the decision-making process. I wanted to understand
how human beings (jurors, in this case) decide whos guilty or negli-
gent and whos not. What I discovered was that the process they used
is the same one we use when we decide whether or not to buy a prod-
uct or service, or say yes or no to someones request, or even
whether or not we believe something is true or valid. And this makes
sense when you consider the fact that we are wired (from our early
days on the planet) to make an important assessment the moment we
encounter a stimulus. In essence what we do is decide if what we
are faced with is good or bad. Our early ancestors had to do this in
order to survive. GoodI can eat it. Badit will eat me; and we got
very, very good at this.
Heres how it works: decisions are made first, foremost, and in-
credibly quickly (within 200 milliseconds) from the emotional, feeling,
intuitive side of your brain. Then, you will immediately jump over to
the logical, analytical, thinking side of your brain to find the facts and
data (and heres the cool part) to support the decision that you have
already made.
Linda Larsen
135
So, in terms of controlling my emotions, I now understand that Im
probably going to have an automatic emotional response to anything
that I perceive to be a threat. My fight-or-flight response will kick in
very quickly. That doesnt mean I have to act on it, however, and
thats where most of us mess up. We dont believe there is any space
between the stimulus and our automatic response, so we just allow
our emotions to do whatever they do. And from my personal experi-
ence, I can tell you, doing that can be ineffective, counterproductive,
and, in my case, downright dangerous.
Wright
That sounds dramatic. Can you tell us about it?
Larsen
Yes. Go back with me to December, 1969. Im twenty-one years
old. Im divorced and the mother of a two-year-old son. Im working as
a receptionist at a law office making fifty-five dollars per week and
am desperately struggling to make ends meet. I am suffering the ef-
fects of having grown up in an extremely dysfunctional home with
alcoholism, abuse, and abandonment, which now manifests itself in
clinical depression, anxiety, and severe panic attacks. I have periods
so filled with despair and terror that suicide seems like the only an-
swer. And while I had seriously considered this option before, on the
morning of December 6, 1969, I come perilously close to making it a
reality.
From the moment I wake up, I hear the words resounding in my
mind, Im ready to die. I just cant make it any longer. Im ready to
die. I feel sick. Hopeless.
But I look into the eyes of that beautiful little baby boy, and I
know I have to try to make it just one more day. So I force myself to
go to work, hanging on to my sanity by what feels like a thin silk
thread.
At 11:30 in the morning, as I sit at the front desk in the law office
trying desperately to appear normal, the front door bursts open and
in runs a man in a prison uniform, brandishing a .357 magnum. It
turns out that he is an escaped convict who, a few minutes earlier,
had jumped the guard on the road gang where he was working, stolen
the guards gun, and fled on foot, only to wind up insinuating himself
into my personal space.
He puts the gun to my head, grabs me by the arm, and demands
car keys from one of the attorneys. He then announces that he is leav-
Masters of Success
136
ing and hes taking me with him. He goes on to warn the other people
in the office that if they call the cops he will kill me.
Oh, there is a part of mea very small partthat wants to say,
Wait, you idiot! Im a certifiable crazy person! You dont want me!
Pick somebody else! Of course, I say nothing. Mostly Im in some
state of shock.
He jams the gun in my back and pushes me outside to the car. He
puts me in the drivers seat and gives me directions to a remote part
of town where he wants to wait until after dark. We get to the place
only to find that there are construction workers there building a new
subdivision. This turns out to be a good thing for me.
He then directs me to a home that belongs to a friend of his. We go
inside and he tells her that she can leave to keep her children away if
she promises that she wont call the police. She agrees and leaves. As
she prepares to leave, I look into her eyes, silently begging her to
please help me; but again, no words come out.
As the door slams behind her, my terror level soars. I am alone in
a secluded, remote house with an escaped convict who has a loaded
gun and nothing to lose. It is a dismal picture.
My emotions are running amok. Inside my head I am a blithering
idiot. Inside my mind, Im screaming, crying, begging for mercy, grov-
eling on the floortotally out of control. But somehow, on some level,
I know that if I allow my emotions to influence what I say and do, it
will be over for me. He is so nervous, intense, and jumpy that one
wrong move on my part will send him over the edge.
And then the moment comes. Im sitting on a chair, and he is sit-
ting directly across from me about five feet away. There is total
silence. He is just staring at me, saying nothing. Im freezing cold,
shivering from somewhere deep, deep inside. My heart is pounding,
my mind racing. About a million emotions are slamming against each
other in my head.
Finally, he slowly lifts the gun and points it directly at my face. He
cocks the hammer, takes a deep breath and calmly says, Are you
ready to die?
The exact words I had said to myself only six hours earlier.
And in this moment I get it. All the pieces of the puzzle seem to
snap together as if all the unseen forces of the universe had suddenly
magnetized them. I can see the answers to questions I havent even
thought to ask. And two very, very important things become exqui-
sitely clear:
Linda Larsen
137
1. No, I am not ready to die. But isnt it interesting that it has
taken this horrific experience for me to understand that?
2. If I am going to escape from this crazy man, then I must keep
my emotions at bay. I must be calm (or at least appear to be
calm). Only then will I be able to figure out exactly what
needs to be said and done and precisely how and when I
need to say and do them.
And that is exactly what happened. After five hours in what
seemed like a suspended state of reality, I escaped. He didnt let me
go; no one rescued me. I found the exact right moment and I escaped.
It was like a giant, multi-dimensional, other-worldly chess game.
Every single decision I made had to be factored in with a thousand
other possibilities. It was so surreal.
But from that time forward, I really understood about the power of
emotions and, more importantly, the power of being able to control
ones emotions. I also knewclearly, unequivocally knewthat if I
could keep it together in that situation, then there would be nothing
life could throw at me that I couldnt handle.
Wright
Linda, exactly what did you do to hold it together?
Larsen
Several thingsall of which can be used in real life to help us be
successful in spite of any emotional upheavals that may occur. I
mean, hopefully no one will be confronted with the kind of experience
I had, but the good news is that the strategies I used in my insane
situation could be helpful across the board. Heres what I did. And as
I mention these things, be thinking how you could use them in some
area of your life where you keep getting stuck.
1. I focused on solving my problemnot on the problem itself.
Every time I started thinking about how hopeless things
seemed or how terrified I was, I would bring my attention
back to finding a solution. I would also filter every action or
communication through the question, Is what Im about to
say or do going to help me or is it going to hurt? Will it get
me the response that Im looking for?
2. I acted calm and in control, even though I didnt feel calm
and in control. I figured out quickly that the only thing he
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138
would be re-acting to would be my behaviors, not how I was
actually feeling.
3. I absolutely knew that I had to build some kind of rapport
with this guy. Somehow I had to get him to like me and
trust me just enough to let his guard down a little.
4. I had to be very, very flexible in my thinking and my actions.
I had to be extremely present in every now moment, gath-
ering as much information as I possibly could in order to be
successful in my endeavor to escape. I had to be able to rec-
ognize that when something I was doing wasnt workingI
needed to shift gears and do something different.
Can you see how those strategies would help you overcome obsta-
cles, solve problems, keep your emotions in check, and accomplish
your objectives? And, by the way, this doesnt have to always be
work. It really can be quite fun.
Wright
Really? How?
Larsen
Okay, lets take the last ideaif what youre doing isnt working
you have to do something different. We all know that this is true
weve heard it a million timesbut do we really do it?
I came up with the following example to share with people who at-
tend my presentations so I could do more than just tell them to do
something different, I could actually show them. It goes like this:
Lets say that you have a son and you have told him over and over
to clean his room, but he doesnt do it. Oh, he has a lot of great ex-
cuses, but the bottom line is its not getting cleaned up. You yell, you
bribe, you cajole, you demand. But it still doesnt get clean. It may be
time for you to do something differentreally different.
First of all, you need to speak a language that he can understand,
and if he is a typical teenager then he probably likes rap music. You
know whats coming, dont you? Yes. I suggest that if you want to be
heard by the young man, then why not rap the request.
I actually wrote the lyrics to a rap song and got a musician friend
of mine to write the music and we put it on a CD. Its real funky
(although Im not certain true rappers would even relate to the word
funky.) Anyway, the words go like this:

Linda Larsen
139
Yo room, dude, its looking real bad.
Yo room, dude, ya better listen to ya dad. Hes mad, real mad.
Better pick up ya clothes or the iPod goes.
Make up ya bed or the televisions dead!
Well now you listen to meIll tell ya how its gonna be.
This aint the home of the freetheres a price, dont ya see?
I told ya 15, 25, 35 times,
That the moneys gonna stop and ya bubbles gonna pop.
Ya better tow the line or yo butt is mine!
Theres another verse, but you get the point. And by the way,
when you actually perform your rap song, you must do as I do in my
presentations. You must don a backwards baseball cap, heavy-duty
bling-bling, and sunglasses. You must also do your very level best to
dance like Eminem or whoevers hot at the time. I know, I knowthe
very thought is scary.
Hey, listen, if Ia fifty-something, grown-up businesswomancan
do this, then anyone can. And will it get a different result? You bet it
will! Your son may run screaming into the night, he may die laugh-
ing. But two things are absolutely certain: 1) hes going to listen! and,
2) he may never look at rap music the same way again!
Wright
It sounds to me like youre using creativity and innovation to solve
an everyday, very real world situation.
Larsen
You bet. And I truly believe that our greatest successes in life will
come when we get more creative, boldly step outside our comfort zone,
and suspend our preconceived ideas about what will work and what
wont, and about what is possible and what isnt.
There are thousands of great speakers out there, with useful in-
formation that they can deliver in an effective way, but thats the
problem! How can you choose between great speaker number one and
great speaker number 1001? I believe the question comes down to:
what does one of them do that is differenthow are they more memo-
rable, fun, and consequently, more effective than all the others?
I am very blessed to have a dear friend by the name of Ben Ver-
een. You may remember him from the film, All That Jazz, or the
television miniseries, Roots, or from any of his Broadway productions
like Pippin, or Jesus Christ Superstar. Well, Ben has started speak-
Masters of Success
140
ing at events around the U.S., just as I do. Only not exactly as I do
or as any other speaker does. He is magnificent! It would not be un-
usual for him to break out into song in the middle of an idea, or run
out into the audience, or leap across the backs of peoples seats. Hes
different. Hes bold. Hes creative. And I think thats what it takes to
be successful.
Wright
Well, you apparently do rap songs!
Larsen
Yes, and Ive been known to shake things up rather radically if it
will help me make a point. I was a professional actor for more than
twenty years and have done everything from Shakespeare to Ibsen to
Simon. I have a graduate degree in acting from the FSU/Asolo Con-
servatory and accordingly, some of the finest training available. Ive
done radio, television, and films. And from all that experience I be-
lieve I have learned what makes an audience listen, get fully
engaged, and have a fabulous time.
Wright
And what is that?
Larsen
I believe its really, really knowing your craft, learning absolutely
everything you can, and then practicing over and over and over again
until it just becomes a part of who you are. Then its getting out there
and giving it a thousand percent with all the passion and love you
have. Its believing that what you have to share is the thing that will
make your listeners lives better, richer, and happier. Its sharing the
very soul of yourself with no thought of whether or not you look good
or sound smart. Its stepping out in total faith and with wild abandon
and having one heck of a good time in the process.
And, after everything is said and done, maybe thats what would
make us successful at any venture in life.
Linda Larsen
141
About Linda Larsen
Linda Larsen is the founder and CEO of a successful communications com-
pany she started over 16 years ago. She is passionately committed to helping
people upgrade their thinking, improve their communication and increase
their bottom line. More than that, she is willing to do whatever it takes to get
her message across and make it stick. Lindas passion and spontaneous hu-
mor stems from over 20 years as a professional actress in film, television and
on stage. Her experience and training (she holds an undergraduate degree in
Behavioral Sciences from the University of Florida and a Master of Fine Arts
Degree from Florida State University) give her the unique ability to combine
the entertaining, dynamic aspects of live theater with practical, high value
content to produce lasting, positive changes. In 1988 she began working ex-
clusively with trial attorneys. As a highly respected trial consultant, she
continues to provide CLE training for lawyers, helping them communicate
more effectively and persuasively in the high stakes, high stress environment
of the courtroom. She is the author of the best selling audio program, 12 Se-
crets to High Self-Esteem, the critically acclaimed book, True Power, and
Linda Larsens Power Tips. She has also written or been featured in over 100
articles in such publications as Investors Business Daily, The Chicago Trib-
une, Women In Business, Personal Excellence, CBSHealthWatch.com, and
MSN.com, among others.

Linda Larsen
Linda Larsen Communications, Inc.
3424 Tanglewood Drive
Sarasota, FL 34239
Phone: 941-927-4700
Email: [email protected]
www.lindalarsen.com

142


143
Chapter Ten
RIDGELY GOLDSBOROUGH
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Ridgely Goldsborough, author, speaker
and producer of the acclaimed Take YOUR POWER BACK! CD and
DVD series on personal empowerment. He has written five books,
hundreds of motivational columns, produced many CD and DVD se-
ries, as well as created cutting edge Internet-based personal growth
courses. He is the co-creator of The YoungSlim Lifestyle
(www.youngslim.com), a wellness and anti-aging program based on
an integrated approach to health and weight management that, as
does all of his work, finds its roots in personal empowerment. He ap-
pears frequently on television and hosts his own radio show. Ridgely,
thanks for joining us today on Masters of Success.
Ridgely Goldsborough (Goldsborough)
It is an honor to be here.
Wright
You have made personal empowerment a major part of your lifes
work. Why do you have such passion for it?
Masters of Success
144
Goldsborough
David, I truly believe there is far too much suffering in our world
today without any good reason for it. Most people suffer because they
dont know how to make empowered choicesbetter choiceschoices
that lead them in the direction of fulfilling their biggest goals and
dreams, to building a magnificent life of their own design. I find this
situation completely unacceptable. We travel through life thinking
heavy and negative thoughts, and as we do, thought particles get
lodged between our ears, causing a condition affectionately known as
truth decay. We need to find a way to mentally floss on a daily ba-
sis, to take our power back, and get rid of any stinking thinking.
Bad habits never miraculously disappear. Each is a kind of un-do
it yourself project. The miracles that appear in our lives come not
from the suspension of natural law but rather from the operation of
higher laws. We need to learn those laws, tap those laws, use them
consistently, and become empowered through them.
Wright
You interview and film leading authors and speakers around the
world for your Take YOUR POWER BACK! series. What have you
learned from that process?
Goldsborough
Two remarkable points: First, I find universal agreement that cer-
tain principles can and will make an enormous difference in the life of
anyone who chooses to embrace them. I hear them over and overthe
same principles over and over againapplied in diverse circum-
stances by incredibly successful people, each with their own legacy of
victory after victory in finances, in relationships, with their health
theres no limit. For those of us who may be searching for the key to
the universe, I have both good news and bad news. The bad news:
there is no key to the universe. The good news: It has been left
unlocked. We simply have to step in and walk the path.
Secondly, each persons unique journey brings a fresh perspective
to every topic we discuss. Given that, we all have so many filters that
cloud our ability to see and embrace new concepts that we need to
hear many different takes on a particular topic in order to under-
stand it and gain the benefit of that understanding. For example, if I
have a challenge with listening, I need to hear about listening from a
multitude of individuals, with different experiences, different ways of
explaining and sharing their knowledge, until finally one of those
Ridgely Goldsborough
145
points of view clicks with me. Then and only then will I learn a little
bit more about how to listen better, in a manner that improves my
relationships.
In the dictionary, they define the word empower as to give power
to; to enable; to give ability to. The masters we interview share their
lives and do exactly thatthey give power. We are the ones who need
to make the choice to open up, learn and receivea daunting task
that requires a real commitment. Despite the universal application of
these proven principles, our stubbornness and self-imposed blindness
dictate that we need a multiplicity of perspectives and experiences in
order for these principles to sink in.
Wright
It sounds like you gain something unique and different from each
speaker.
Goldsborough
Absolutely. If I go to a seminar or listen to an empowerment CD or
read one of your books, David, and walk away with just one nugget
that improves my life, then I consider that a success. If I gain two
nuggets then I hit a home run. Each of the people we interview gives
us at least one or two nuggets, sometimes more.
One speaker taught me how to live in the mystery each day. An-
other reminded me that, repetition is the mother skill. I scrounge for
that nugget with every interview and get excited, confident that each
persons particular life experience will birth a number of jewels for all
of us. I make it my mission to create an environment conducive to
exposing their lives, to sharing the challenges, defeats, lessons, and
subsequent victories on video, in such a way that anyone watching
the series can see in living color, with a full gamut of expression and
a full range of emotions, the real storythe good, bad and ugly. I pull
out everything I can and memorialize it for all posterity. Much un-
mapped country lies within each of us. I help gifted people draft maps
for the rest of us to use at will.
Wright
This body of work sounds a lot like what Napoleon Hill did years
ago with Think and Grow Rich.
Masters of Success
146
Goldsborough
Thank youwhat a compliment. Even though Napoleon Hill fo-
cused on a success philosophy in the area of wealth, the same
principles apply across the board in all aspects of life. I feel the same
way about personal empowerment. We did not have the benefit of get-
ting Napoleon Hill on film because the technology did not exist in the
earlier part of the last century. If we follow the same process now,
travel the globe seeking out leading thinkers, speakers, authors and
other accomplished individuals, and record their information, we can
distill universal principles and share them with the world. As an
added bonus, we make old truths fresh with each new persons ex-
periencetheir varied and colorful backgrounds that paint the
canvas of their journey. Logic makes people think; emotions make
people act. Stories live in our hearts. We record peoples unique sto-
ries and pass them on.
Wright
You also spend a lot of time speaking and writing on personal em-
powerment yourself. Would you tell our readers a little bit about
that?
Goldsborough
If I split myself wide open, leave my blood and guts on a stage or a
page, laugh, cry, and make a fool of myself, I build a small amount of
trust. All of us hurt, fail, suffer, get back up and wonder what its all
about. By intimately exposing myself, I invite each person to relive
their own experience, to go back to that sad or happy place and play
with those emotions in raw form. I build a small bridge of trust and
then share a take or an angle that may challenge an antiquated belief
that silently cries out for reform. I am a messenger who tries to re-
move blinders through trust in order to revisit old notions with new
eyes.
Every week, I agonize over my motivational column entitled A
View From The Ridge (www.aviewfromtheridge.com), and like a dog
on a bone, will not let it go until I bite it, gnaw on it, play with it and
work each fiber and sinew in every crevice. Only then will I release it
into the cosmos.
For me, personal empowerment means life sharingwhat I learn
from someone who came before me, passed on through the emotion
that makes the experience real for me. Ill rip it out and throw it out
Ridgely Goldsborough
147
there. I want to know your story. I want to learn from you. Ill share
mine first if thats what it takes to get you to open up.
Wright
So, what do you think of the primary components of empower-
ment?
Goldsborough
Thats a profound question, though not particularly complicated.
Its simplicity however should in no way be confused with easy.
First, we must take responsibility, claim our lives as our own and
make the powerful choice to create them according to our own design.
The world is run by people who show up; we must flat out decide to be
one of them. After internalizing that decision, we have to make a plan
in writing, begin to execute the plan, and analyze one thing to deter-
mine its efficacythe results. As the saying reflects: You can have
reasons or you can have results. Reasons dont count, results dont lie.
Results or lack thereof dictate the next step. If our actions yield posi-
tive fruit, we continue, refine, and even accelerate the steps called for
in the plan. If not, we go back to the drawing board and re-work the
plan, always failing our way forward.
In addition, concurrently with boldly working the plan we must
train our body and mind for success, constantly make an investment
in ourselves as the most valuable of all resources, through personal
development and embracing a success philosophy such as outlined in
Think and Grow Rich. We can also add prayer, a form of focused
thought.
As we make the courageous declaration this is my lifetherefore I
am in charge of itin all aspects, all sorts of forces mobilize to sup-
port us on the journey. Those obstacles and challenges that we
inevitably face bolster our growth; make us stronger and more able to
overcome the next adversity, building an inner muscle that serves us
in all areas.
We repeat the process over and over until the inner transforma-
tion that occurs manifests outwardly through fantastic results that
paint our personal portrait of accomplished goals and dreams. The
changes within us dictate new behavior that translates into new ac-
tions. These actions, by definition, produce new results. We tweak
and tinker, play and grow, fall down and start over. Every time we
get up we feel a little more em-power-ed, a little more power-full, a
little closer to making our dreams come true. Once we venture down
Masters of Success
148
the path, persistence becomes our main ally. Let me share a favorite
quote:
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not;
nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not;
unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education alone will not;
the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge
Wright
Who can do this?
Goldsborough
Thats an easy one. Anybody who wants tono exceptions.
Wright
I notice that you answered anybody who wants to rather than
simply anybody. Whats the difference?
Goldsborough
Leopards dont change their spots. To open the creaking, groaning,
and heavy door that is oneself, to look in and make modifications may
well constitute the most difficult voyage a human being ever embarks
on. It involves taking a true inventory, examining weaknesses as well
as strengths, and admitting that we need to transform certain aspects
of ourselves if we want different results.
The fact that anyone can do this in no way makes the process easy.
It only makes it available. The missing ingredient is desire. Because
of the difficulty, regardless of the pot of gold at the end of the rain-
bow, most of us would rather hide from stormy weather than brave
the rain, wind, and lightning. And to complicate matters further, the
tempest lies within, unseen. We dont know its shapetornado, hur-
ricane, squalldifferent and unique for all of us. Therefore, we have
to discover it, bring it out into the open, shed light on it, accept it and
then tackle iteach of these steps with its own degree of angst, not to
mention the extraordinary amount of needed effort. We have to en-
dure the discovery process, the acceptance of areas that call for work,
Ridgely Goldsborough
149
the daily choice to challenge those areas, and the actual grind of tak-
ing the necessary actions.
Sometimes we will fail miserably and may even feel that we re-
gress. Sometimes we will progress yet doubt ourselves and suffer
lapses in confidence. Our desire must carry uswe have to want it.
Without a burning desire inside, most of us wont walk the path.
Wright
It sounds as though youre suggesting that in some ways we have
no real choice.
Goldsborough
If we want to lead a different lifean empowered lifewe will
have to do different things and take new actions that produce new
results. This means we have to want it badly enough to go through
whatever the challenge, whatever the obstacle, whatever the pain to
help us adjust our belief systemthe one that dictates how we act.
The accumulation of different actions on a daily basis will yield as-
tronomically different results over time. Anyone can do it as long as
they want to.
Wright
You mentioned tools a few minutes ago. What tools are available
for the average person?
Goldsborough
Every town across America has a library. For five dollars (and
sometimes at no cost), anyone can get a library card and gain access
to a wealth of materials on personal empowerment, personal growth,
motivation, inspiration, and so on. The Internet opens up the world to
us all with newsletters and other resources as well as direct mail ac-
cess to tapes, video tapes, audio tapes, DVD series, books,
magazinesall available to anybody who wants them. Any of us can
go onto the Internet, run a search, and pull up fifty thousand sources
for virtually anything. I can listen to an audio program while Im
driving. I can read one of your books David, instead of listen a trashy
novel. I can watch a DVD like Take YOUR POWER BACK! instead of
late night television. I can turn my car into a rolling university. There
is an endless supply of tools for anyone willing to go get them and use
them.
Masters of Success
150
Wright
If I really want to take my power back as you have stated how long
will this journey take me?
Goldsborough
Thats not an easy question and Ill have to answer that in two
parts.
Part one, I dont know. It will depend, from one person to the next,
on how much effort goes into the process of taking that power back,
how much new programming helps rewire the system through books,
audio programs, videos, and from where each person starts the jour-
ney.
However, the second part of that answer is far more important
than the first: it doesnt matter how long it takes. The question we
have to ask ourselves is where will we be if we dont do it? In other
words, five years or ten years from now, if we dont take our power
back, we will find ourselves in exactly the same place where we sit
now, except older, more jaded, more rigid and less able to make the
needed changes. Im reminded of a quote by Henry David Thoreau, If
a man constantly aspires, is he not elevated? Did ever a man try hero-
ism, magnanimity, truth, sincerity and find that there was no
advantage in themthat it was a vain endeavor? The journey in and
of itself contains immense value for the traveler. How long it takes is
irrelevant.
Wright
I heard a motivational speaker tell a story about a lady who came
up to him after his speech, all pumped up claiming, You have
changed my life and Im going to go back and get my college degree.
He asked her how far did she have to go. She answered: Well, I
graduated from high school and Im going to go all the way back. It
will take me four years. He congratulated her. He saw her about two
years later and inquired about her college dream. She said that she
decided not to do it. He asked why, to which she replied, Well, I
would be forty-four by the time I finished four years later. He
pointed out that she would be forty-four anyway.
Goldsborough
Exactly right. All of us will be five years older five years from now.
What will determine the difference in our lives? The books we read,
the people we associate with and learn from, the audio programs we
Ridgely Goldsborough
151
listen to, the videos we watch. The changes that come about because
of all that powerful information (or the painful realization that no
change has occurred because no effort was made) will determine the
difference in our lives. If we do nothing the result is guaranteed
nothing!
Wright
I remember many years ago a man named Paul Myer, who owned
The Success Motivation Institute in Texas taught me how to set
goals. The last question I asked before I decided whether or not to
challenge a goal was the question, Is it worth it? When I reflect on
the things you have shared today, how long the journey might take,
the tools I would need to use, things I would have to do, and so on, do
you really think its worth it for each individual?
Goldsborough
Is it worth living a full life? Is it worth loving with all your heart?
Is it worth taking an amazing journey where you accomplish all kinds
of goals and dreams that you dont even have yet because their sheer
magnitude defies your current capabilities? Is it worth all of that? Or
should we just wait until we hit the grave? Most people die early and
young. They simply spend sixty or seventy years walking around
without falling in the hole. Thats not living. Harold Kushner once
said, Our souls are not hungry for fame, comfort, wealth or power.
Our souls are hungry for meaning, for the sense that we have figured
out how to live so that our lives matter, so that the world will be at
least a little bit different for our having passed through it. In order
for us to have any impact, we have to empower ourselves. Our great-
est reward for our effort will not be what we get for it, but rather
what we become through it.
The question, Is it worth it? is almost ludicrous. Consider the al-
ternative. I coast, I exist, I fall asleep at the wheel, yet somehow I
keep driving down the same old road, using someone elses road-
mapa map made without any of my goals and dreams in mind. As
Napoleon Hill taught: It is always your next movenot someone
elsesyours.
Wright
The best definition of a rut that Ive ever heard is, a grave with
both ends kicked out.

Masters of Success
152
Goldsborough
Absolutely.
Wright
Do you have any final thoughts you might give our readers and
our listeners that would help them to develop themselves and thereby
empower themselves?
Goldsborough
Dr. Daisaku Ikeda, a spiritual leader and modern day philosopher
once said this: Even places that have been shrouded in darkness for
billions of years can be illuminated. Even a stone from the bottom of a
river can be used to produce fire. Our present sufferings, no matter
how dark, have certainly not continued for billions of yearsnor will
they linger forever. The sun will definitely rise. In fact, its ascent has
already begun.
I find this: Diamonds are nothing more than chunks of black coal
that stuck to their jobs. Anyone can turn their life around, achieve
anything they want, and become the person of their dreams, happy,
joyful, vivacious, dynamic, excited, and exciting. You owe it to your-
self to do whatever is necessary to become empowered and live a
powerful life. Then, give your gifts to others and the rewards return
ten-fold. As Zig Ziglar once said, Be a go-giver not a go-getter.
I want to thank you, David, for being such a go-giver yourself. I
look forward to spending my life continuing that process.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Ridgely Goldsborough. He is an
author, a speaker, and produces the acclaimed Take YOUR POWER
BACK! CD/DVD series involving leading authors and speakers for the
express purpose of exposing the journeys of personal empowerment of
accomplished women and men. As we have found this afternoon, he
knows what he is talking about. I know Im going to start doing some
things differently and perhaps this book might convince you to do the
same.
Ridgely, you just cant imagine how much I appreciate you being
with me today on Masters of Success.
Goldsborough
It was indeed a great pleasure. Thank you for spending this time
together.
Ridgely Goldsborough
153
About Ridgely Goldsborough
Ridgely Goldsborough has written five books, recorded dozens of radio
and television shows and publishes a free weekly inspirational col-
umn entitled, A VIEW FROM THE RIDGE that is read around the
world. His greatest source of pride lies in his two acclaimed DVD se-
ries Take YOUR POWER BACK! and MODEST TO MILLIONS!,
fascinating compilations on film of the philosophies of the titans of
personal growth and some of the wealthiest people on earth. Ridgely
records the legacies of industry giants and shares them with the
world.

Ridgely Goldsborough
A View From The Ridge, Inc.
16264 North Shore Drive
Pensacola, Florida, 32507
Phone: 866.YOUNG00 (968-6400)
www.aviewfromtheridge.com
www.youngslim.com
www.modesttomillions.com

154


155
Chapter Eleven
KERRY DAIGLE
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Kerry Daigle, a proud Cajun from Ope-
lousas, Louisiana. Hes an entrepreneur, businessman, radio host,
author, speaker, and the consummate Renaissance man. He shares
his passion for personal growth with audiences around the world. His
blend of wisdom, experience, and personal humility come together in
unique and powerful insights that impact everyone he comes in con-
tact with on a daily basis.
Kerrys tremendous knack for finding and developing talent ex-
tends beyond his core business of developing leadership in the direct
sales industry and into his love affair with the sport of boxing. Kerry
finds, coaches, and develops promising young boxers, helping them to
excel and rise through the professional ranks and into the big
leagues. He uses this special gift in all areas of his lifeas a mentor,
teacher, at home, in his business, and other personal pursuits.
His new CD, Dreams, Fairy Tales, & Miracles, recorded with his
daughter, Angela, is available by contacting him directly or going to
his web site. The CD consists of chapters of his upcoming book.
Through his actions and accomplishments Kerry shows the world
that one can truly have it all. Kerry, welcome to Masters of Success.
Masters of Success
156
Kerry Daigle (Daigle)
Its an honor, Dave, thank you.
Wright
Youre a strong believer in the power of gratitude and you even
mention that gratitude leads one to positive thinking. What do you
mean by that?
Daigle
Well, David, lets think about that for a minute. Being grateful
means being happy with yourselfthats the first step toward devel-
oping a positive self-image, which creates a positive attitude.
Learning how to be grateful will bring an appreciation of things in
your life that may be taken for granted. It recharges the mind and
opens your heart. It releases you from stress and negativity.
My greatest mentor was my grandmother, Maw-Maw Daigle. She
always told me to start with gratefulness first thing in the morning
when I woke up because there are thousands of people who didnt
wake up that morning. Be grateful for that opportunity and thank
God for another day to make a difference in not only your own life but
also in the lives of many others.
Wright
You mention your grandmother a lot in many of the workshops
and talks you give as one of your mentors. Evidently she had a very
forceful impact on your life.
Daigle
David, she definitely did. My grandmother raised me since I was
three years old. I was born in 1952, so that tells you my age. Maw-
Maw Daigle didnt have a Ph.D. nor did she have a B.S. behind her
name. In fact, she was illiterateshe couldnt read, she couldnt
writeand she could only speak French, which was her native
tongue. What she did have, David, were the letters L.E. behind her
namemeaning Life Experiences. Its amazing now, as Ive attended
some of the top workshops and seminars all across America and
abroad, headlining best selling authors, and internationally known
speakers, Ive come to realize that Maw-Maw Daigle taught me some
of the same things I learned at these seminars. She may have said
these things differently but the meanings and results were exactly
the same.
Kerry Daigle
157
I have a new book Im writing titled Dreams, Fairy Tales, & Mira-
cles, which are the chapters of the lessons in life Ive learned from my
grandmother and my grandfather, Paw-Paw Daigle.
I have a CD titled the same with six of the chapters from my book
available for sale at ten dollars including shipping. My daughter, who
is only eleven years old, is doing some of the voice-overs and intros. I
think youll like this, David. The subtitle is, Things Ive Learned from
Maw-Maw and Paw-Paw Daigle that You Wont Learn at Harvard or
Yale. I believe readers would enjoy the material. None of it is mine;
its all lessons I learned from my grandparents.
Wright
Would you share with our readers at least one lesson that your
grandparents taught you?
Daigle
One lesson they taught me left a huge impact on my life. It was at
a time when I complained to my grandparents about my misfortunes.
We were living on state assistance, we didnt own a vehicle, and we
didnt have any air conditioning. So many other people were so much
more fortunate than we were. Paw-Paw Daigle immediately asked me
to take a walk with him. I was about twelve years old, working in the
neighborhood to make additional income to help myself with some of
the expenses of going to school, and I was feeling sorry for myself.
Paw-Paw took me to a medical clinic in the small town we lived in,
Opelousas, Louisiana. Interestingly, David, at that time you could
actually walk right into the clinic without any visitor passes and
there werent any security guards. We would meet and visit with pa-
tients who were suffering from strokes, others were suffering from
the results of life-threatening accidents, and some of them were in
wheelchairs permanently. Other patients had terminal illnesses. Be-
ing only twelve years old at that time, it amazed and yet saddened me
to see some of the patients were actually my age.
We walked home and Paw-Paw didnt say much. He remained very
quiet until reaching the front porch of our home (we met a lot on that
front porch). He then asked me in a very simple fashion, After our
visit today, Kerry, and your troubles you had this morning, I really
need to ask you, do you really have a problem that cant be handled?
Immediately I started understanding the meaning of gratitude and
that I was the lucky one and that I should be grateful for having such
good, sound physical health and a strong mind.
Masters of Success
158
David, its so important to look back at lessons like these that may
have been taught to you by your first mentors whether they were
your parents, your grandparents, maybe a relative, or a friend, and be
grateful that those lessons are treasures that have been given to us.
Also, its important to understand that as we learn from these les-
sons our lives will change for the better. When I have a bad day now I
look back and think about how grateful I need to be to have the op-
portunity to rid myself of those dark moments and learn from them.
Once more I began to understand Maw-Maws and Paw-Paw
Daigles credentials, the letters L.E.Lifes Experiencesand what
they really meant. It is now important for me to transfer these same
experiences and lessons to others.
Wright
Gratefulness is something weve all heard about and obviously,
whether its a class on manners, or in church. I think we understand
what the word gratefulness means but is it possible to train yourself
to be more grateful?
Daigle
Absolutely, David. I really believe that everyone can do that and
its a very simple thing to do. One thing would be to always have a
journal with you and write down each meeting you have with your
peers and business associates. I think everyone should have a jour-
nal. Keep track of what you discussed that day so you can always look
back at what you learned and what transpired. Remember, a short
pencil is always better than a long memory. Youve probably heard
that many times.
Most importantly, however, in each day of writing in your journal,
write something you are grateful aboutjust one sentence. That will
create a habit of gratitude. Habits, David, become a way of life. Next
share this powerful gift of gratitude with others and you can
changeyour life and many others around you. This way you become
more grateful for the small things in life. It then becomes amazing
how the bigger things in life just seem to happen if you just keep
marching forward with a positive attitude. Many times the great
things that happen in life come unexpectedly.
Wright
Are there any one-liners that your grandparents shared with you
that you can pass along to our readers?
Kerry Daigle
159
Daigle
Thats a great question. I sure can. One of them is this: You can-
not be negative and grateful in the same moment. Think about what
I just said. That stunned me when I learned that lesson. It made so
much sense.
Of course, the most important lesson for me personally was Maw-
Maw Daigle constantly mentioning that I should be grateful that I
could read. That was a very impactful point in my life and a great
moment. Maw-Maw always would tell me, You will become who you
are by the books you read and the people you hang around. If you
read books on murders, robberies and crime, you will learn about the
same. If you read positive thinking books, you will learn how to be
positive. Its the same with the people you hang around. If you hang
around a thief you will learn how to be a thiefyou make that choice.
Life is that simple and really, reading books is so important. Just
remember that the people who dont read books are no better off than
the people who cannot read. Being that Maw-Maw Daigle could not
read it left a solid impression on me of the gift of being able to read.
Ive read at least one book every two weeks in the last ten years.
There are little things many people may not think are important
that they should be grateful for. One of those for me personally was
the ability to read, but most importantly, using that ability by read-
ing the right books such as all the books in your publishing company
that promote good, sensible living habits and teach good, positive
thinking skills.
Wright
What would you say to someone who lost a loved one early in life
or who possibly lost someone they cared about through a breakup or
divorce? How can you be grateful in those kinds of situations?
Daigle
David, thats a tough one. But then its your outlook on life after a
hard challenge and how you handle it is what makes the difference.
This reminds me of something Maw-Maw Daigle told me before leav-
ing us here on Earth to live with the angels. She always said to me
that when she would pass away to always look back to mentally video
those moments in time within our mind that we sincerely appreciated
with her and not to dwell on her departure and the end of her life; but
to remember when that time would come, to think she was in a better
place. As we would say today, put those moments on video in our
Masters of Success
160
mind so we can replay the good times over and over and over again.
Remember when we held hands, when we laughed with each other,
when we hugged, or when we just sat next to each other and enjoyed
each others company. Remember the good moments and keep those
alive. It will only make us so much stronger. Be grateful for those
wonderful moments that will definitely outweigh the less than won-
derful moments. Never, ever, ever, take anything for granted.
Wright
In your CD, Dreams, Fairy Tales & Miracles, you mentioned the
power of the dreamthe ability to believe in fairy tales and miracles.
How does gratitude fit into a dream or a fairy tale?
Daigle
We should all be very grateful we have the ability to dream. The
problem is, we as adults have quit dreaming and have taken the gift
of dreaming for granted. Dreams can become fairy tales and fairy
tales can turn into miracles.
I know it has for me. Ive gone from state assistance as a child to
financial success at the age of twenty-three, then bankrupt at the age
of thirty-one, and then the ability to retire at the young age of forty-
two, if I chose to. I now enjoy life and do all the thinks I love to do
such as writing, speaking, radio, teaching others to be successful in
their business, and working in the professional boxing industry. I am
very grateful.
Gratitude changes the way we look at life and our challenges. Ob-
stacles become opportunities in disguise once you learn the power of
gratitude. Tough times will transform into challenges that make us
stronger as we handle things with gratefulness. Thats why dreaming
is so important! Paw-Paw and Maw-Maw always said, If you dream
big, your world is big; if you dream small, your world is small.
Be grateful for things in life that you may take for granted and
your dreams will return. Look for the good and your focus will auto-
matically be drawn away from the bad.
Wright
What are some simple lessons to start accepting the power of
gratitude?
Kerry Daigle
161
Daigle
Well, at least once a day, David, preferably you should take fifteen
minutes of your time and sit somewhere alone where you can look at
the trees or what nature has given usthe snow-covered mountains,
the beautiful colors of plants and flowers, the smell of the air after a
rain, the chirping of the birds, or the simple sound of the wind. Be
grateful for life and what it brings to you. Be grateful for nature. Love
and appreciate everything in your life. Look for the positive in people.
Gratitude is a special gift.
Secondly, dont forget about keeping a journal. Itll change your
life personally and professionally. In writing down your meetings and
experiences, always write in things that you are grateful for that par-
ticular day.
Thirdly, learn to say Thank you more often. And when you say it,
mean it. Doing so will create a smile on the other persons face as you
let them know you are grateful for something that person did. Say
Thank you with eye contact. We choose what we receive in life.
Choosing to be grateful and showing appreciation with a small,
Thank you, will you give you a fulfillment that you will want to ex-
perience over and over and over again. Say Thank you in a caring
way and watch the results that will follow.
Wright
When do you start teaching this method of gratitude?
Daigle
Many of us as adults have been challenged in life with many trials
and tribulations that have created doubt in our decision-making proc-
esses. This then creates self-doubt while losing self-confidence. Its at
this time more than any other we must start looking at the good
things that have happened to us. It may be that we have had a busi-
ness failure. From that lesson we must learn from the mistakes we
made and be grateful that we have learned so we can get stronger.
That would be for the adults who have forgotten the gifts they were
given in life, by having the opportunity to reach forward and start
over again but in a grateful way.
One other thing that is generally missing in our lives is teaching
our children the power of gratitude early in life while giving them the
self-confidence and self-esteem they so richly deserve. I believe, if we
start early with our children, we can instill strong, positive thinking
Masters of Success
162
skills that will grow with them into adulthood making them much
more successful on every path they embark.
For example, if your child is slow in math, you want to do your
best to teach them how to be better. The wrong way is to scold them
into learning. You should look at their strengths and build their con-
fidence up in what they are really good in. Should your child have
great penmanship and have the ability to speak and read well, you
must commend them on those strengths and tell them how grateful
they should be that they are so gifted in those areas. To be thankful
will create new inner strength and confidence that will move your
child in the direction of becoming better in the areas they were weak
in. Its amazing what the mind can do if its trained to be grateful and
positive.
My daughter, Angela, at this time is eleven years old. She was
adopted at the age of six. She was virtually homelessvery little
clothing, very unhealthy, and could not read nor write, although chil-
dren her age were memorizing the alphabet and writing their names.
She couldnt do either one. Entering school for her was quite a chal-
lenge; but through the power of having her feel good about herself
and being grateful for her new life and the love she was receiving, she
excelled in school and to this day, she is in the top of her class aca-
demically.
Every day we ask her what she did that day that she should be
grateful for, plus something someone else did that she was thankful
for. You can help by reminding children of the things they learned at
school each day. You can also help by having them think of something
they can appreciate in themselves that day. David, this will create
positive thinking skills and self-esteem which in turn makes your
child a happy child. Start with your children early and create
strength through gratitude for the positive things happening in your
childs life.
Wright
What do you think is a good way to express gratitude toward oth-
ers?
Daigle
Thats a good question, David, with a simple answer. Theres noth-
ing more powerful than a handwritten note letting a certain person
who assisted you with something as simple as getting you a great ta-
ble at a restaurant, or moving you quickly in a haircut appointment
Kerry Daigle
163
when you were in a hurry, giving you a smile at the cashiers counter,
or buying you lunch, or just spending quality time with you. The list
goes on and on. That handwritten note will be much more powerful
than an e-mail, a fax, or a voice mail. It means you took the time out
of your busy day to write a personal note to them, showing your grati-
tude for their assistance and their kindness. David, its just amazing
how that simple note will bring joy to the persons life whom youre
sending it to.
I ask people on a regular basis in the seminars and talks I give if
they remember the last time they received a personal, handwritten
note from someone. David, its amazing how each person remembers
not only when they received the note. They also generally remember
why and from whom they received it. Ive asked these same people
when was the last time they received a formal letter or an e-mail of
the same type and they normally do not remember. Why is that? It is
because these personal acts of gratitude of taking the time to write
special thank-you or appreciate-you notes for acts of kindness are
very seldom done and are very seldom forgotten by the receiver.
These notes create rapport with these people who seldom get thanked
and they will give you a personal sense of self-satisfaction, while at
the same time creating a great sense of name recognition with your
receiver. You can only win with this method of gratitude in so many
different ways.
Wright
Do you have any closing comments for our readerssomething
that might wrap this up? Ive really, really learned a lot here about
the power of gratitude. Ive made a decision that Im going to start
using some of your advice.
Daigle
Well, thank you, David. In wrapping this interview up it is impor-
tant to understand practicing to be grateful will require that you slow
down if youre speeding through the day, at least for a few moments
to notice the simple things we take for granted. David, youve heard
the old saying, Stop to smell the roses. Most people overlook the
blessings that are all around usthe food we eat, the book you are
reading right now, the smile for the other person who is in need of
making their day brighter by giving them a simple smile, the thank
you, the stars in the sky. We should be grateful that we can give to
Masters of Success
164
others simple gestures of kindness and thanks that can change their
lives while changing our own lives.
Paw-Paw Daigle always said, Your future depends on many
things, however, most of your future will be determined on your grati-
tude toward life and toward people.
Wright
What a great conversation. I really appreciate all the time you
spent with me here today, Kerry. This has been enlightening to me
and I know it will be to the readers of this book. Thank you for taking
the time to express the power of gratitude.
Daigle
David, it was an honor just to be able to be involved with not only
you personally but also Insight Publishing. I expect great things to
happen from this interview. Thank you for your help.
Wright
Today weve been talking with Kerry Daigle. Hes an entrepre-
neur, a businessman, radio host, author, speaker, and as we have
found today, the consummate Renaissance man. His blend of wisdom
and experience come together in unique and powerful insights that
impact everyone he comes into contact with on a daily basis.
Kerry, thank you so much for being with us today on Masters of
Success.
Daigle
Thank you very much, David. I appreciate you!
Kerry Daigle
165
About Kerry Daigle
Kerry Daigle, a proud Cajun from Opelousas, Louisiana, paints the
portrait of the ultimate Renaissance man. A successful entrepreneur
since 1965, Kerry runs a number of businesses out of his home, while
simultaneously hosting a radio show, writing books, keeping a hectic
speaking schedule while operating and managing his RESIDUAL
INCOME direct sales neutriceutical business. It is this RESIDUAL
INCOME that has allowed Kerry to chase and follow his dreams giv-
ing him the time freedom so many people lack. Kerrys businesses
take him literally around the world. He does speaking engagements
each time he travels, sharing insightful presentations with worldwide
audiences, full of revealing Cajun wisdom that he learned from his
first mentors, his grandparents, Maw-Maw and Paw-Paw Daigle.
Kerrys radio show KEEP PUNCHING WITH KERRY DAIGLE of-
fers motivation and inspiration to a global audience that listens to
archived shows at www.kslokogm-fm.com and
www.keeppunching.com, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

The KeepPunching Media,
Publishing, and Promotional Companies, LLC
PO Box 627
Opelousas, LA 70571-0627
Phone: 1.800.485.9323
Email: [email protected]
www.keeppunching.com
www.kerrydaigle.com


166




167
Chapter Twelve
DOUG DVORAK
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with Doug Dvorak. Doug Dvorak is a profes-
sional humorous speaker and creativity consultant who believes that
laughter is the software of the soul. Doug assists clients with im-
proving their bottom line through the use of humor and creativity.
Dougs clients are characterized as Fortune 1000 companies, civic
organizations and service providers. Doug is a certified creativity con-
sultant, management consultant and corporate humorist. He holds a
Bachelor of Arts degree in Business Administration and a Master of
Business Administration in Marketing Management. Doug is also a
graduate of the Players Workshop of the Second City, one of the old-
est and most prestigious improvisational comedy schools in the world.
In addition, he is also active member of the National Speakers Asso-
ciation (NSA).
Doug, welcome to Masters of Success.
Doug Dvorak (Dvorak)
Thank you very much David, Im glad to be here and may I say,
you look fantastic. Are those paten leather?
Masters of Success
168
Wright
Here we go! I am in for it arent I? Im surprised you didnt crack
up with my mispronunciation of the word improvisational.
Dvorak
This obviously isnt Masters of Speech. By the way, I love the
humble, self-effacing titleMasters of Success. Let me guess, Gods of
Greatness was already taken, most likely by a morning AA group in
Des Moines?
Wright
Okay, okay, its time for the Jay Leno in me to come out even
though I have no idea what to expect with this interview.
Dvorak
Gee, David, lets see, I am a professional speaker; and we are talk-
ing about my favorite subjectME. This could go on for a couple of
days; did you bring enough tape?
Wright
To start, perhaps you can share with us how you became a Pro-
fessional Humorist Have you always been funny?
Dvorak
Excellent opening question JayI mean Davidvery professional
and smoothly done. In other words, Its time to talk about being
funny! Lets see, how did I start? Well, I started out as a poor child
living in a doublewide. Wow, that is probably not a politically accept-
able joke any longer. Actually I was a rich child living in a
doublewide; well, not that rich. No, truthfully I was just always a
pretty funny kid, with a good wit and a knack for finding the funny in
all situations. Growing up I tended to rely on humor as a means to
overcome my shyness and insecurities. I wasnt necessarily the class
clownmore the Ed McMahon to the class clown, mostly working
the smaller roomsthe lunchrooms, the math halls, that sort of
thing.
As I went through college and began my professional life I infor-
mally continued to bring humor into my everyday life. Throughout
my twenty-three-plus years as a professional sales person, my sales
people and my managers repeatedly told me I had a good sense of
Doug Dvorak
169
humor and I was very creative, sometimes maybe a little too funny
(but what did they know?).
In some ways Ive always tried to use my humor and creativity as
a way to manage my sales staff and build relationships with my cli-
ents. I simply have always believed that being funny helped me
better connect with people.
Wright
How did you begin thinking about doing this professionally?
Dvorak
I guess when I started to consciously use my sense of humor as a
means to my approach to business started for me back when I was a
regional sales director for Boca Research, a manufacturer of data
communications and IP telephony products based in Boca Raton,
Florida.
Once while working for Boca I found myself tasked with develop-
ing an interesting and creative theme for our trade show booth at
Comdex Canada, which, along with the Cured Meats Expo, is still one
of the largest trade shows annually in Canada. It was there I had the
good fortune to meet a very creative gentleman named Jim Ince. Jim
was a professional entertainer who owned a special events company
in Toronto. I was interviewing different creative talent trying to hit
on a funny idea or theme when I was introduced to Jim and his com-
panyInteractive Entertainment. We chatted for bit and together hit
on an idea for a circus theme for the show. It would turn out to be one
of the most successful themes of the entire Comdex show. Granted,
our competition may have been a Jarts catching contest and a Molson
keg give-away but still, we were funny and the show was a success.
We even won a few awards for the themed circus booth concept, in-
cluding the prestigious Funniest Booth prize that I made up and
awarded our team.
So, through the course of the four-day trade show as Jim and I
bantered back and forth doing some slap stick improvisation, we be-
came instant friends and I am pleased to say remain so today. Jim
has been a comedy mentor for me, actually helping me to further de-
velop the character I use in my speechesDr. Earnest Carpediem.
Together we also wrote the original keynote speech I still present to
this day all over the world, Mega Motivation with a Twist, with an
obvious emphasis on the twist.
Masters of Success
170
It was also Jim who first suggested I seek some professional help.
Now that is mentoring! Truthfully, he wasnt recommending I see a
therapistI was already seeing one of thosebut rather that I
should explore formal creativity and humor training and what better
place then Chicago, the hometown for some of the best improvisation
anywhereThe Second City Playhouse. He gave me the old, if you
can make it there kid, you can make it anywhere, speech. So I de-
cided to make some calls. Through good fortune, talent, and
persistence I landed a spot at the Players Workshop of the Second
City, one of the oldest and most prestigious improvisational comedy
schools in the world.
Wright
The Players Workshop of the Second City in Chicago? Isnt that
where Bill Murray, John Belushi, Dan Ackroyd, and Mike Myers
studied improvisational comedy?
Dvorak
Thats correct David. I entered their two-year program, Creative
Expressions Through Improvisationmore properly titled, Acting
like an idioton cue! What an experience. It essentially forced me to
check the left hemisphere of my brain at the door once a week for two
years. Sorry Doug, no inhibitions allowed here today. Im sorry, are
you feeling a little self-conscious today? Do the next skit with your
shirt off. It literally forced me to focus on the right side of my brain
where humor, emotion, and creativity occur.
I have to say, the formal embracing of humor in my life blossomed
from there. No, no David, there are five es in hemisphere. So, as I
advanced through the workshop and became more comfortable apply-
ing humor to real life situations I found my effectiveness as a sales
professional was also improving as I was connecting with people on a
more personal level. And the sales increased as well. Ah, the almighty
dollartheres nothing funny about greed, is there?
Wright
Can you tell us more about the influence that workshop had on
your approach to humor and creativity?
Dvorak
Well, the Players Workshop has such a tremendous history and
reputation that it can be somewhat overwhelming for new students.
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171
The two-year program begins with a basic introduction to improvisa-
tion and then advances quickly through a series of eight highly
advanced improvisational classes. The class culminates with each
student writing, directing, and producing their own Saturday Night
Live type of skit for the main stage at Second City. It was there I first
developed my alter ego, Dr. Earnest Carpediem, an obvious spoof on
seize the day.
When I first created the good doctor, I had no idea what he would
become; he was simply this crazy motivational speaker I developed
for a skit. The skit was very well received and the doctor became a
regular at the workshop. The two-years were rewarding on many lev-
els. The experience helped me to understand how the human mind
processes humor and creativity; it also convinced me that humor, in
its purest form, is actually risk and achieving humor is risk re-
warded.
Wright
Will you share an example of how you applied what you learned in
the workshop to the business world?
Dvorak
There is one story I like to share about taking a chance on humor.
While I was still with Boca Research we had a booth at the Comdex
computer show in Las Vegas, this one attracted more than 1.3 million
people each yeara big showour biggest show of the year. This
time I was charged with coming up with the Chochki (Yiddish for
Chochki) the giveawaythe trinketcompanies use to help those
who attend their booth remember their products.
So the show is approaching and I have nothing! Not a single de-
cent idea; just mostly lame stuff like the Boca spongy finger or a
Boca bouncing ball. I was nowhere. We are in Vegas, two days before
the show and Im out to dinner with my wife Cathy. After a magnifi-
cent all-you-can-eat buffet at The Mint, we were strolling downtown
when somehow we discovered a novelty storeclearly divine inter-
vention that I was able to find a novelty store in Vegas! So we wander
in and I come across this propeller beanie. Boom! It hits me
technical people in the computer world are often referred to as pro-
peller heads. Did I really have something here or was this just a
surefire way for me to offend 1.3 million technology professionals? I
admit I was torn but I decided to take the risk and bet on the humor.
So I ordered 25,000, had them embossed with Boca Beanies and
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172
shipped to Las Vegas within twenty-four hours to be handed out at
our booth.
Wouldnt you know itwe ended up having the hottest give away
at the show! The big guysIBM and Microsoftprobably had huge
budgets and teams of marketing gurus focus testing the Micro-
Frisbee, and here was Boca Research, on the second day of the show,
being interviewed by CBS Evening News, USA Today, and The Wall
Street Journal, all fascinated with the Boca beanies.
I tell you that story not just because it makes me look great, but
because I remember to this day that I had a critical decision to make
and ultimately, I placed my bet on humor. I passionately believe that
in all facets of life, one surefire way to break down walls and find
commonality with people is through humor.
Wright
So when and how did your transformation from sales professional
to a Professional Humorist begin?
Dvorak
The success at the Comdex show really got me going. More and
more I began to count on humor, looking for ways to bring humor and
creativity to my sales presentations, my client interactions, and sub-
sequently into my speaking engagements. Soon my sales clients
began asking me, Can you help us out with our conference theme or
can we pick your brain. Youre kidding? Sure! You bet, how can I
help? It was really getting exciting.
Wright
What convinced you that you could leverage your sales career into
a speaking career?
Dvorak
As I mentioned David, sales has always been my profession. I was
drawn to the excitement of carrying a sales quota and achieving the
financial and personal rewards that come with accomplishment.
Looking back, I now realize what I truly enjoyed doing was present-
ing during sales calls and conferences and infusing humor and
creativity into my sales presentations. I guess I fell backwards into
the old adage: find what you love to do and do it the rest of your life.
I loved the performance component of presenting to clients which
in turn led to speaking opportunities for me with my sales clients. I
Doug Dvorak
173
also began networking within the speaking profession, joining an or-
ganization called Toastmasters International which is designed to
help people of all professions become better speakers and communica-
tors. I began attending more speaking seminars and conferences,
getting introduced to some of the industrys best motivational speak-
ers who are always willing to share their thoughts and ideas. It is a
very nurturing profession filled with great people who helped me de-
velop my passion for speaking. I feel like I am one of the luckiest men
in the world to be doing what I am doing!
Wright
So what convinced you to make the leap permanently to being a
Professional Humorist?
Dvorak
Well it was 1998; my sales job was on cruise control and I was do-
ing well financially. I was also conducting outside speaking
engagements about once a month so I was living the good lifeor so I
thought. Then that May, two life-changing events happened to me
within days of each other that caused me to totally reevaluate who I
was. As I share in my presentations in May, 1998, my dad died sud-
denly after a fall from a third story window and literally days later I
was diagnosed with cancerbanner month in the Dvorak household,
let me tell you.
Faced with both challenges I naturally became very reflective, as
would anyone dealt with two life-altering curve balls. I could either
have allowed those events to negatively impact my life or I could
somehow find a way to move forward with a positive attitude. I ad-
mit, I struggled for weeks; but as I recall, I spent most of that time
looking for ways to feel better, rather than going down a destructive
path that could make things worse.
So, after weeks of soul searching, talking with my wife, my
friends, family, and most importantly, myself, I reached a disturbing
realization. Outside of my marriage, I had only one other true source
of satisfaction and pleasure in my life and it was my speaking en-
gagements. My job had become just thata job. I was only really
happy at my work when I was speaking, which was just not happen-
ing enough. I was conflicted and depressed. So, I made the very scary
decision to quit my sales job. This was the timethe right timefor
me to make the leap. I decided from then on I would do what I loved
to dospeak professionally.
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Wright
What led you to choose to speak professionally about humor, crea-
tivity, and motivation?
Dvorak
While I was working through the issues I was facing with my dads
death and then being diagnosed with cancer, I began reading the
works of renowned author Dr. Norman Cousins. I owe so much of my
recovery and my approach to humor to the works of Dr. Cousins and
his writings on the healing power of laughter. Within his books, he
describes how when you laugha good belly laughyour body cre-
ates and emits endorphins. Now, these should not be confused with
their close cousins, the Miami Endorphins. (Oh, come on Dave, Im
giving you pearls here.) Anyway, endorphins are the bodys natural
healing element.
Dr. Cousins noted that ten minutes of healthy laughter is equiva-
lent to two hours of restful sleep. In his most famous book, written in
the early 70s titled, Anatomy of an Illness as Perceived by the Patient,
he documents his battle to overcome his life-threatening disease
through the use of laughter. His doctors ostensibly gave him a death
sentencejust a few months to live. He checked himself out of the
hospital, went to a friends cabin armed only with humorous materi-
alsrecord albums, audiocassettes, and books that would make him
laugh. All he did for six weeks was read, listen, and laugh. He came
back after six weeks, marched right into his doctors office for an
exam, and walked out with a clean bill of health. That is a true story.
I read that book twice in one month trying to squeeze out every bit
of hope. I sought out humor everywhere I could, maybe not to the de-
gree Dr. Cousins did but with the same conviction. He was obviously
a huge influence on me personally and helped me find my voice in
humor and creativity. In fact, I found that if I indulged in a daily dose
of humor, the following health benefits occurred:
Laughter is a stress buster.
It reduces the levels of stress hormones epinephrine
and cortisol.
Laughter strengthens the immune system.
The immune system is important in maintaining good
health by keeping infections, allergies, and cancers at
bay.
Laughter therapy helps to increase antibodies.
Laughter is anti-ageing.
Doug Dvorak
175
It tones facial muscles and expressions.
Laughter causes an increase in blood supply to the
face, which is why some people look flushed. This nour-
ishes the skin and makes it glow.
People look younger and more fun when they laugh!
Laughter is aerobic exercise.
Laughter stimulates heart and blood circulation and is
equivalent to any other standard aerobic exercise.
One minute of laughter is equal to ten minutes on the
rowing machine.
The singular benefit almost everybody derives is a
sense of well-being because more oxygen is taken in
during laughter.
Laughter is internal jogging.
Laughter is a natural painkiller.
Laughter increases the levels of endorphinsthe
bodys natural painkillers.
Laughter can control high blood pressure.
Laughter can help dump depression and anxiety.
Laughter makes you sleep better.
Laughter improves lung capacity and oxygen levels in
the blood.
Laughter just makes you feel good.
Wright
How did you apply Dr. Cousins philosophies on humor to your
situation?
As is my nature, I took a very philosophical approach. I began to
investigate the humor component of living; how other people who
had personal and professional challenges stayed positive and how did
humor play a role? I was convinced there would be a common thread
therehumor somehow must have played a role in their recoveries. I
began to devour books, audiocassettes, video programs, and anything
I could get my hands on. I visited therapy centers and recovery units
where I met with many who were battling life issues every day. The
more I spoke with them, the clearer things became.
When they shared what was still positive in their lives, almost
every one of their stories would involve humor. Here were people
fighting to hold on to something, anything that was positive to keep
them going and what they were able to find and grab hold of was hu-
mor.
Masters of Success
176
Now, what really did it for me was the realization that I was, in
fact, working through my grief in exactly the same way. What did I do
when I was deeply depressed? I reached out for my source of humor
my speeches. Talk about an epiphanyI had used humor to recover. I
soon began to feel better, and it was becoming easier to gain closure
with my dads death. My cancer treatments were continuing and I
was growing stronger every day. Looking back, I am convinced I was
actually receiving two forms of treatmentmedical and humor and I
thank God, because today I am cancer free, stronger, and a heck of lot
wiser.
Wright
Ill share that with my wife; she is an eight-year cancer survivor.
Dvorak
God bless!
Wright
That means youre going to make it.
Dvorak
Yes, I am.
Wright
So you decided to throw all caution to the wind and begin a new
career. What happened next?
Dvorak
It was after this experience that I created my own company com-
mitted to turn my avocation into my vocation. You like that dont you
David? Make a note to remind me to make a note. With all humility, I
named my company, Dvorak Marketing Group, created to help com-
panies and business professionals achieve their business objectives
through the use of humor and creativity. Thats really how it all be-
gan David.
Wright
So tell me about how you began to approach clients and earned
business for Dvorak Marketing Group?
Doug Dvorak
177
Dvorak
My trade secrets David? Wait! Do I have more then one? My belief
is that humor, creativity, and motivationemotions and feelings that
occur on the right side of our brain tend to be somewhat absent in
todays political correct business environment, not to mention in our
post 9/11 society. People are just not laughing enough. Since its in-
ception, Dvorak Marketing Group has developed a number of
assessment tools and selective exercises that take people through the
creative process. We all have an IQan intelligence quotient and an
EQan emotional quotient; but I believe we also all have an HQa
humor quotient. I developed and designed a humor assessment that
through a series of questions and phrases helps determine a persons
humor quotient. We also provide our clients with exercises and sug-
gestions all designed to develop the right side of their corporate brain.
Wright
So lets say Im a prospective client. How do you explain how hu-
mor can boost employee moral and productivity?
Dvorak
I think that the vast majority of businesses today are too focused
on the bottom linegot to make the numbers. Its all about making
the numbers. But how do they get that done? The best companies do
it with people. My position is that people really are the most produc-
tive when their personal goals are aligned with the goals of the
organization. Thats rather obvious but much is easier said then done.
Almost every company I meet with mentions one of their top cor-
porate goals is to attract and retain quality people. Almost none of
them have as part of their game plan a formal approach for injecting
humor or creativity into the workplace. Now compare that to most
employees' own personal mission statement, which typically includes
gaining more satisfaction out of their jobs as one of their goals. See
the disconnect? Making that connection is where I come in.
Case in point, take Herb Kelleher, the former CEO of Southwest
Airlines. I have flown with Southwest on a number of occasions and I
am a huge fan. I also have a close friend who is a captain for South-
west. She makes a very comfortable six-figure income flying and
probably works only ten days a month. She loves her job. Who
wouldnt? Once she told me a bit of internal scoop that made me
think. Do you know what the most cherished reward a Southwest pi-
lot can earn? Its the brown leather bomber jacketa trophy
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178
respected industry-wide symbolizing they work for one of the finest
companys in the world. Thats creative, clever, motivational, and
simpleI love it. And it doesnt stop there as anyone who has flown
Southwest Airlines can attest. How about the fun the flight atten-
dants are having? Certainly not your typical stodgy announcements
at take-off from this crowdthey are encouraged to add humor and
creativity, which helps them connect with their passengers. As an
organization, top down, they have embraced a culture of creativity
and humor which is why Southwest is continually recognized as one
of the best companies to work for. They have made that connection.
Unfortunately, I am not seeing enough of this from other CEOs in
Corporate America today. My work is never done.
Wright
I have to ask, I know what a consultancy is but I am a little un-
clearwhat is a humor creativity consultant?
Dvorak
Its funny because I am asked that constantly. This curious desig-
nation is bestowed upon only those individuals who attended and
graduated from The Players Workshop at Second City. And, as I men-
tioned earlier, the actual program is called, Creative Expression
Through Improvisation. The two-year program helps prepare its
members to view life and work through a more creative and humor-
ous set of lenses. It wasnt all just fun and gamesthe program really
focused on the human psyche and how laughter and humor affects
the brain.
I often boast to women that I have a doctorate in humor and crea-
tivity. Its a good thing I am married because even that line doesnt
work for me. What I was finding as I began proactively seeking cli-
ents was that organizations of all types are in need of and are looking
for ways to bring more humor and creativity into the personal and
professional lives of their employees. I mean, look at the pressures
people face today. Our lives are so complex with two-income house-
holds, raising kids, paying bills, saving for college, and caring for
family members. I have taken to calling it the sandwich generation.
With so much coming at us each day that needs to be compressed?
What I was hearing back from companies who were hiring me was
validating all of these concepts. The demand for my services remains
strong because organizations are under tremendous pressures to
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179
meet their business needs. They are now recognizing the value of add-
ing humor and creativity to the workplace.
Let me share an example. Im currently working with an interna-
tional airline on ways to infuse more humor and creativity into their
rather staid senior management team. This group makes a wax mu-
seum look like a gymnastics competition. So we initially meet with
their leadership team and discuss ways to customize the sessions to
insure that its fun and interactive while still meeting their specific
needs.
We discussed a number of different types of exercises, even some
that can take place outdoors, all designed to bring about different re-
sults. So we settled on a full day workshop built upon a scavenger
hunt theme. Each attendee is asked to complete a humor and creativ-
ity assessment in advance of the workshop so going in they already
have an idea of the areas where they need to improve. The assess-
ment also gathers key personal preferences, such as an ability to
communicate in a creative and humorous way, and what is the per-
sons appetite for risk. This all becomes part of the sessions key
deliverableour twenty-five-page individual profilethat we deliver
at the end of the session. We call these The Personality Owners
Manual. They are enlightening insights into each of the participants
psychological make-up that can hopefully benefit them well beyond
the session. The Personality Owners Manual focuses on helping the
individual with:
Improved Communication through a revealing explora-
tion into the different ways team members send and
receive information.
Reducing conflict, tips on using humor and creativity
to recognize and minimize unnecessary clashes be-
tween dissimilar personality types.
Strengthened Management Effectiveness through in-
creased awareness of the team, various human needs,
and professional preferences.
Decreased Stress, discovering ways to sidestep anxiety-
generating and time-consuming interpersonal issues
through the appropriate use of humor.
Ultimately, the team members learn to develop better relation-
ships, improve morale, and create greater camaraderie through the
healthy insights harvested during the workshop. And the results are
typically so hilarious the teammates openly share their personal
Masters of Success
180
Owners Manual with others, further fostering the bond the session
establishes.
So if you find yourself flying an airline in the near future and their
personnel seem giddy as they run around hugging each otherwe did
something right. Or you just may be flying Southwestone of the
two.
Wright
I see you also do some writing as well.
Dvorak
Yes I do David. I have written two Harlequin Romance novels cen-
tered on a medieval Lord named Fronk who is allergic to tin.
Wright
Seriously?
Dvorak
Hello, professional humorist here! Actually, I have written two
humorous books, at least I think they are funny; they are: 101
Twisted Mantras For The New Millennium and its highly antici-
pated follow-up, 101 Severely Twisted Mantras - For The New Age. I
am also working on a number of humorous pamphlets I can leave be-
hind to help my clients maintain the humor momentum. And you
never know when I may write something else about Lord Fronk.
Wright
As you have worked to refine your role as a Professional Humorist,
are there any professional people you consider your role models?
Dvorak
Well David, I think as I mentioned earlier, I not only have tre-
mendous respect for Mr. Herb Kelleher as a superb business man, but
also as leader with a great sense of humor. Early on while in gradu-
ate school, I read a business case about Southwest and the influence
he has had on his organization. He stated that one of the driving
forces behind their success was they created a culture that placed
high value on the soft skills in his employeesenergetic, fun-loving,
and personable. So, right from the beginning Mr. Kelleher saw the
value in recruiting and hiring a certain type of person who fit into
Doug Dvorak
181
their culture. This was at the beginning, way before their decade of
rising stock and company value.
Another business leader, Victor Kiam, who is since deceased, once
owned the NFL Patriots as well as Remington shavers. He has writ-
ten two books, Going for it! How to Succeed as an Entrepreneur, and
Live to Win: Achieving Success in Life and Business. Within both
books he shares story after story throughout his life of how he has
taken risks and incorporated humor and creativity into his personal
and professional life. He is especially proud of the time he brought a
live chimpanzee on a sales call. Neither Mr. Kiam nor I am suggest-
ing that any sales professional bring a chimp to a sales callbesides,
any good salesperson calls ahead to check to see if the client already
has one available. So to answer your question, I would say these two
business leaders definitely influenced me and my career.
Wright
What about comedy professionals? Are there any you have looked
to as role models or for inspiration?
Dvorak
Well initially, like many of my generation it was the masters: John
Belushi, Dan Ackroyd, Gilda Radner, and Chevy Chase and their
work on Saturday Night Live. I was transitioning from high school to
collage just about the time they hit it big, so their styles and voices
really hit the mark for me. I couldnt get enough of themthe show,
their comedy albums, even seeing them come to Second City. Along
with them, I have always found the impov work of Jonathan Winters
and Robin Williams to be very free spiritedrisk taking in its truest
comic form. Its their risk taking, the high-wire act without a net that
connects with the audience. Fans recognize they are out there taking
a chance.
Another legend would be Don Rickles. The first time I had the
privilege of seeing Don Rickles perform live was in Vegas in the early
nineties. I was really fascinated at how much of Don Rickles show is
pure improvjust him playing off the audiencethe brilliance, the
simple brilliance. I stand in such awe of these artists who discovered
their comic gifts then took the time, the energy, and the risks associ-
ated with turning those gifts into their own form of art.
Masters of Success
182
Wright
I know he is not here, but if he was, what would Dr. Carpediem
say are his motivational dos and donts?
Dvorak
Well, I know for a fact his biggest do is quite simply, DO. We
see so many books on how to stay motivatedpeople giving advice on
what to do. People spend too much time learning about the how but
dont spend enough time on the doing. Anyone who has seen Dr.
Carpediem speak knows one of his favorite phrases is Dont be
known for what you say, be known for what you do.
Lets see, what are some other motivational dos from the good
Doctor? Ah yestaking motivational risks. This means get out of
your mental comfort zones and push yourself to discover your humor
and creativity. If you want to have more fun, and be more motivated,
you have to take some risks, appropriate risks. Simple suggestions
include: go to different places for dinner, or introduce yourself to peo-
ple you see every day but may typically ignorethe people on your
commuter trains, those working at the restaurant you visit regularly,
and especially people you work with.
One of the doctors favorite exercises with clients is the happy fun
guy. He challenges the audience to say, Hi, to at least one stranger
every day for one week. He bets a dinner that by Friday, everyone
will have least one very funny experience. Most are leery but hey,
think about the worst thing that can happenyou become known as
the friendly guy? Come on! Shame on us for allowing our human na-
ture to see risks where none exists. David, what is the opposite of
risk?
Wright
Reward?
Dvorak
Good answer, but no. The true opposite of risk is regret. If you ask
a person to share with you their biggest disappointments in life they
will invariably tell you a story that includes regret. If I could pick just
one message to come across to my audience, it would be that they
walk away encouraged to take more risks in their personal and pro-
fessional lives. Today will be gone forever, make it great and seize the
day!
Doug Dvorak
183
Wright
Doug I really appreciate your spending time with me here today.
This has been enlightening and extremely enjoyable.
Dvorak
Thats it? I didnt get to share the period of my professional life
when I was a nude piano player working a health club lounge? Oh
well, maybe next time. But sincerely David, thank you very much, its
been a privilege and a pleasure to share with you my philosophies on
humor, motivation, and creativity.
Wright
Today we have been talking to Doug Dvorak, a professional hu-
morous speaker and creativity consultant who believes that laughter
is the software of the soul. Doug assists clients with improving their
bottom line through the use of humor and creativity. Im convinced
hes right.
Doug thanks so much for being with us on Masters of Success.
Dvorak
Thank you David.
Masters of Success
184
About Doug Dvorak
Doug Dvorak assists clients with productivity training, corporate crea-
tivity and humor workshops, and other aspects of sales and marketing
management. Dougs clients are characterized as Fortune 1000 compa-
nies, small to medium businesses, civic organizations, service businesses,
and individual investors and entrepreneurs. Doug Dvorak is a certified
sales trainer, management consultant and corporate humorist. Doug
holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Business Administration and a Master
of Business Administration in Marketing Management. But Dougs sense
of humor is no less refined, as he is a graduate of the Players Workshop
of the Second City, one of the oldest and most prestigious improvisational
comedy schools in the world. Doug has presented to over 50,000 people on
four continents. Doug conducts personalized presentations and work-
shops. He speaks to management groups, business owners, and
professional associations that appreciate his customized programs which
never fail to bring smiles to peoples faces. But regardless of Dougs comi-
cal presentations, he is a consummate business professional whose
primary goal is client satisfaction. In addition, Doug is an active member
of the National Speakers Association (NSA).

Doug Dvorak
1064 Bombay Way
Palatine, IL 60067
Phone: 847.359.6969
Mobile: 847.997.3454
Fax: 847.705.7157
Email: [email protected]
www.DougDvorak.com


185
Chapter Thirteen
WILL CROSS
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Will is a professional motivational speaker, mountaineer, and edu-
cator. He has spoken all over the world and to audiences of from
thirty to three thousand. He has led expeditions to the ends of the
earth. Will Cross can inspire your audience with rich tales, motiva-
tional messages and magnificent images that will move your
participants to be refocused and more productive. Wills achievements
have been covered by CNN, BBC, The Today Show, Discovery Chan-
nel, Voice of America, KDKA News and Talk Radio, and ABC, CBS,
and NBC national affiliate stations. He has also appeared in publica-
tions such as The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The New York
Times, Explorers Journal, and GQ. During 2003 and 2004, Will deliv-
ered an inspirational Public Service Announcement viewed by over
seventeen million people. Wills 2004 Mt. Everest expedition had a
reach of over thirty-seven million people. Among his global expedi-
tions, Will has successfully ascended the highest peaks of North and
South America, Europe, Africa and Antarctica. In 2001 he was privi-
leged to climb fifteen unmapped, unexplored mountains in
Greenland. He received a Gold Congressional Award for exemplary
service to the United States, granted for his initiative, achievement
Masters of Success
186
and service. Will is a professional member of the National Speakers
Association. Will holds a Bachelor of Arts from Allegheny College, a
Master of Science in Education from Duquesne University, and Sec-
ondary Principals Certification from the University of Pittsburgh,
where he specialized in educational programs for troubled teens. Will,
his wife Amy and their six children live in Pittsburgh.
Will, welcome to Masters of Success.
Will Cross (Cross)
Thank you.
Wright
How do you define motivation?
Cross
When discussing motivationthe setting of goals, overcoming
fears and doubts, finding hidden strengthswe often deploy the im-
agery of mountain climbers inching their way to the top. We talk of
reaching new heights. The most successful people are often described
as having attained the pinnacle of their profession. Coaches and cor-
porate CEOs stress the importance of peak performance.
Wright
Have you learned a great deal on these trips?
Cross
I can appreciate the potency of this imagery. Climbing some of the
highest mountains in the world, as well as walking to both the North
and South Poles, has taught me the importance of planning, team-
work, perseverance, and self-reliance. On expeditions and climbs
these things become more than bulleted points in a motivational
speechthey are essential to your survival.
Wright
What does it take?
Cross
To be a climber requires intense focus and absolute physical out-
put that you can never imagine (you wouldn't want to because it can
be so difficult). It also provides a tremendous sense of freedom and
power and control in the world in which you are such a small part.
Will Cross
187
To stand on top of Denali, the highest mountain in North America,
or to climb the south peak of Mt. Everest, where youre so high you
can see the curvature of the earth as the sun rises over China, is to
know an enormous sense of pride and accomplishment. In addition to
overcoming the obstacles of altitude, bad weather, falling rock, and
treacherous, man-eating crevasses, each summit gives me another
victory over my diabetes. I like to think that it sets an example for
others who may have my disease or other physical limitationsthat
they, too, can overcome them.
Wright
How has diabetes impacted you?
Cross
Type 1 diabetes is much more dangerous than Type 2 diabetes,
which is often caused by age, a bad diet, and excess weight. The pan-
creas of a Type 1 diabetic cannot manufacture insulin, a growth
hormone that breaks down glucose. The disease cuts life expectancy
and renders sufferers insulin dependent. Diabetes is the leading
cause of heart attack, kidney failure, amputation, and blindness.
More people will die this year of diabetes than they will of AIDS and
breast cancer combined.
I motivate others by telling my story as someone who has had
Type 1 diabetes for twenty-eight years and someone who is trying to
become the first American to climb the highest mountain on each con-
tinent as well as walk to both poles. I try to motivate by setting an
example, telling a story well, and relating that story to my audience
specifically, whether it is to a group of business people, a group of
children, a group of parents, or a fundraising opportunity.
Wright
How did this all start?
Cross
My adventures really started when I was about nine years old and
diagnosed with diabetes. I was told I couldn't do the same things that
other kids do, particularly adventure sports. I didn't really accept
that. As I grew older and learned how to manage the diseasein my
early teensa determination grew to prove that diabetics didn't have
to remain homebound invalids.
Masters of Success
188
As a Type 1 diabetic, I must inject myself with insulin at least four
times a day. I must also monitor my blood sugar constantly, main-
taining a careful balance of calories consumed, measured against the
amount of exercise and medication in a given day. Obviously, the pro-
cedure becomes especially complicated when youre climbing a
mountain or walking across a polar plateau.
Wright
Could you tell us about a big hurdle?
Cross
My first real test came when I was seventeen and I was accepted
on an expedition to Patagonia, Chile. Diabetics were forbidden to go
because it was thought their special dietary requirements and insulin
dependence would prove life threatening. But I wrote to Prince
Charles, who was sponsor of the expedition and asked if he would
make an exception. He did.
About a week into the journey, rations were cut drastically when it
was discovered that not enough food had been packed. I fought back
the panic I felt and went along with the rations. I told no one about
my diabetes because I did not want special treatment and besides, I
had specifically asked his Royal Highness that I be included in this
expedition; I was darned if Id turn tail now. I forced myself to take it
one day at a time and to concentrate on eating slowly. For the next
two and a half weeks, we hunted and foraged. We ate birds, snails,
leaves, grass, and berries when we could get away with it. I survived
with no long-term damage to my health. The ordeal changed my per-
spectiveIt gave me a taste of the obstacles I would face.
Wright
How is planning part of leadership?
Cross
Its okay to change your game plan when things dont go as youd
hoped. For example, I wanted to become the first diabetic to walk to
the South Pole. I grew up in England and I had a vision based on the
cultural stories of England about Robert Scott and Ernest Shackleton
going to the poles. These are classic odysseys, so I wanted to journey
to the poles. I had no idea if I could do it, what it would cost, or who
would do it with me; I just wanted to do it. I had a very clear vision
but I had no idea how to execute it.
Will Cross
189
When I couldnt raise enough money, I set my sights on a more at-
tainable goalwalking to the North Pole. I would use this polar hike
to provide data to diabetes researchers at the University of Pitts-
burgh Medical Center. One of the researchers would accompany me
and measure the effects of extreme temperatures and physical exer-
tion on my body. I went there because I had no success convincing
people I could do the South Pole without killing myself. I still had to
overcome considerable skepticism, but with the help of colleagues
such as Richard Danforthalso a Type 1 diabeticI successfully
walked to the North Pole in 2001.
Wright
What happened after reaching the North Pole?
Cross
Building on this success, I was able to achieve my goal of becoming
the first person with diabetes to walk to the South Pole. It was a two-
year process finding the right people, keeping them motivated, rais-
ing the money, and then getting down on the ice. Then it was a
mere matter of hauling 150-pound sledges 730 miles, ten hours a
day. During the sixty-day walk, which I began on November 18, 2003,
with Jerry Petersen, my chief concern was making sure my insulin
didnt freeze in the frigid temperatures, which sometimes reached
sixty degrees below zero.
Wright
Tell us about the foundation of leadership.
Cross
I incorporate five specific elements of the climb into my motiva-
tional talks. Putting the first letter of each word together spells out
the word climb:
Courage
Love
Imagination
Motivation
Belief
Wright
How does this fit into a business model?
Masters of Success
190
Cross
The parallels between mountaineering and business are endless.
Everyone has to have a common understanding of what it is youre
going after. They have to share that vision you have. Teamwork is as
vital in business as it is in being able to reach the summit of a moun-
tain. You will run into difficult times and you need to be able to see
those and account for them before you go bankrupt.
Success requires a good leader who can communicate effectively,
think on h/her feet, make adaptations, and who possesses complex
skills. All of those are important elements whether youre climbing a
mountain or running a business.
On a mountain, successful execution means getting to the top and
getting back down; but it makes no sense to summit if you can't make
it home. That is why I turned around on Mount Everest in 2004 when
I was fifteen hundred feet from the summit. Things were not going
well; six people had died the day before. My partner and I believed we
could make the top but we couldn't make it down, so we turned
around.
Wright
How do you define success?
Cross
Success simply is attaining the goals you set out to achieve. That
obviously becomes more complex as you look at it in terms of
satisfaction. Satisfaction is physical and mental as well as emotional,
and you become successful when you find balance in those areas.
Wright
How does motivation play a role in leadership?
Cross
My motivational philosophy perhaps can be summed up thus: You
have no idea how youre going to do it, or if it can be done, but you
know that it's something important to you and you go for it. Motiva-
tion is the engine that drives leadership.

(William Loeffler, a Pittsburgh based writer, helped with this story.)
Will Cross
191
About Will Cross
Will is a professional motivational speaker, mountaineer, and educator. He
has spoken all over the world and to audiences of thirty to three thousand.
He has led expeditions to the ends of the earth. Will Cross can inspire your
audience with rich tales, motivational messages and magnificent images that
will move your participants to be refocused and more productive. Wills
achievements have been covered by CNN, BBC, The Today Show, Discovery
Channel, Voice of America, KDKA News and Talk Radio, and ABC, CBS, and
NBC national affiliate stations. He has also appeared in publications such as
The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The New York Times, Explorers Jour-
nal, and GQ. During 2003 and 2004, Will delivered an inspirational Public
Service Announcement viewed by over seventeen million people. Wills 2004
Mt. Everest expedition had a reach of over thirty-seven million people.
Among his global expeditions, Will has successfully ascended the highest
peaks of North and South America, Europe, Africa and Antarctica. In 2001 he
was privileged to climb fifteen unmapped, unexplored mountains in
Greenland. He received a Gold Congressional Award for exemplary service to
the United States, granted for his initiative, achievement and service. Will is
a professional member of the National Speakers Association. Will holds a
Bachelor of Arts from Allegheny College, a Master of Science in Education
from Duquesne University, and Secondary Principals Certification from the
University of Pittsburgh, where he specialized in educational programs for
troubled teens. Will, his wife Amy and their five children live in Pittsburgh.

Will Cross
1110 Morningside Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15206-1349
Phone: 412.606.7758
Email: [email protected]
www.willcrossmotivates.com

192



193
Chapter Fourteen
JARIK E. CONRAD
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Jarik E. Conrad. Jarik is a professional
speaker, trainer, leadership coach, and consultant. Jarik is a certified
Intercultural Sensitivity trainer, a certified Emotional Intelligence
trainer, and is certified as a Senior Professional in Human Resources
(SPHR). He is currently an Executive Director with the Jacksonville
Regional Chamber of Commerce where he leads Blueprint for Pros-
perity, an initiative aimed at increasing the per capita income of
Duval County residents in Florida. He is also the President of Conrad
Consulting Group LLC, which is a leadership consulting organization
that offers a variety of services aimed at maximizing the capabilities
of an organizations greatest assetits people. Jarik grew up in a
housing project in East St. Louis, Illinois, a place once described as
the most distressed small city in America. He went on to earn a BA
from the University of Illinois, as well as MBA and MILR degrees
from the Ivy Leagues Cornell University. Jarik has been a leader and
trusted advisor to all levels of management at various Fortune 500
companies during his career.
Jarik, welcome to Masters of Success.
Masters of Success
194
Jarik E. Conrad (Conrad)
Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today, David.
Wright
You know there are thousands of books and articles published an-
nually about leadership. What do you think the greatest
characteristic is for effective leadership?
Conrad
Emotional intelligence is key. Recent studies show that emotional
intelligence is a much greater predictor of success than IQ. Most of
the theories about leadership borrow from and build upon each other.
Many of the theories include components of emotional intelligence
such as confidence, self-awareness, empathy, assertiveness, and op-
timism. Confidence is everything! People will not follow a leader who
is not sure of his or her abilities.
I want to note here, though, that confidence and arrogance are two
very different things. We all know that any strength can be a weak-
ness if taken too far. Self-awareness is also important. One of the
biggest mistakes failed leaders make is thinking they can do it all.
Self-awareness is necessary so that leaders can surround themselves
with others who have better skills in some areas than they have.
Empathy is essential for effective leadership. Leaders who can un-
derstand the perspectives of others are in a much greater position to
find collaborative solutions to vexing problems than those who are
narrowly focused on their own needs and perspectives. Empathy re-
quires a world-view that allows for differences in people. People have
different personalities, different values and beliefs, and different
dreams. It is important for leaders to avoid imposing their own per-
sonality style, values and beliefs, and dreams on others.
Assertiveness refers to an individuals ability not only to recognize
when actions need to occur, but the ability to step up and take the
necessary action. Optimistic leaders are confident they can achieve
their goals. Additionally, optimism is contagious.
Wright
So how would you describe your personal leadership style?
Conrad
I attribute a great deal of my success in leadership to emotional
intelligence. In fact, I recently scored high on an emotional intelli-
Jarik E. Conrad
195
gence test. Reuven Bar-On defines emotional intelligence as an array
of capabilities, competencies, and skills that can influence ones abil-
ity to cope with environmental demands and pressures. I refer to the
concept simply as emotional recognition and response. I have been
able to understand and effectively channel my emotions in difficult
situations such as growing up in East Saint Louis, competing at an
Ivy League school, and facing challenges in Corporate America. I
have also been able to read others and use that insight to solve prob-
lems. I am most excited about emotional intelligence because it can be
measured and improved in a way that IQ cannot. IQ does not change
much after adolescence, but emotional intelligence typically grows
naturally through mid-life and can be accelerated with focused devel-
opment. Emotional intelligence holds a great deal of promise for
corporate and community leadership, which I believe is the greatest
challenge society will face as it becomes more complex, competitive,
and diverse.
Wright
You say that effective corporate and community leadership is the
biggest challenge we will face in the near future. Explain why you
feel that way.
Conrad
Now more than ever successful organizational decision-makers
recognize that their true competitive advantage lies with their people.
Constant change and rapid technological advances have made it im-
possible to compete on a product basis alone. Globalization has led to
an increase in the speed and the quality of information one can ob-
tain; and that has made it much more competitive.
Products and services can now easily be copied. If an organization
once supplied the only product or service of its kind on the block its
leaders could probably treat people with little regard and still be suc-
cessful. However, when there are two or three other similar products
on the same block, leaders have to change the way they view their
employees. Creative, caring, hardworking, capable, and trustworthy
employees are essentialespecially in leadership positionsif or-
ganizations are going to keep their edge.
If what I have said thus far is true about the importance of people
in organizations, the real key to all of this is managing the challenges
and opportunities associated with diversity. I define diversity as the
internal and external characteristics that make us different. The
Masters of Success
196
demographics of the workforce are shifting more rapidly than ever.
The faces in our cafeterias, meeting places, and ultimately, our
boardrooms are increasingly going to be different. From an internal
diversity perspective, we are learning more each day about learning
styles and personality styles that impact how individuals process in-
formation and interact with each other both within and across
cultures. Leaders will have to be dedicated to getting the most out of
each and every individual. Furthermore their success in doing so will
be based not only on their cognitive abilities and technical skills; but
primarily on their intercultural sensitivity and emotional skills.
Wright
Jarik, you talked a bit about diversity in your response to the last
question. Do you think diversity, particularly race relations, is still
major a challenge in this country?
Conrad
Of course we still have some major obstacles to overcome in this
area, David. I am optimistic we can get there though. Two things
must happen for us to get beyond racism, sexism, and all of those
other isms that divide us. First, marginalized groups are going to
have to avoid falling into victimhood. Individuals from historically
disadvantaged groups must be determined not to let institutionalized
barriers prevent them from achieving their goals. It is unacceptable
to take the position that since racism might inhibit my success I
wont even try; in other words, I am guaranteeing that I wont be suc-
cessful since I might not make it anyway.
On the other hand, the other thing that needs to happen is for in-
dividuals in the dominant group to recognize that there are barriers
specifically associated with being a woman or person of color that
have to be removed. I believe very few people will deliberately dis-
criminate against others; however, institutionalized racism is still a
very formidable challenge for people of color in America. Even well
meaning white people find it difficult to admit that institutionalized
racism exists and these subtle biases result in privilege for them. I
call this phenomenon Buried Head Sydrome. It plays itself out like
this: Things that come to our attention that fit our paradigms are let
in but things that do not fit are ignoredso much so that we will not
even acknowledge their existence.
Privilege does not mean that white people dont have to work hard.
In fact, most successful people in America are hard workers. Privilege
Jarik E. Conrad
197
means that individuals from other groups might work equally as
hard, but may face roadblocks related only to their gender or color of
their skin that stunt their progress. Those who say we dont have a
race problem in America, but we do have an economic problem are
missing the point. Of course we have an economic problemwe have
to work to erase the barriers to success for poor whites as well.
The challenge is that we see race; we dont see economics. For in-
stance, if you took a wealthy Black man and a poor White man,
dressed them alike and doctored similar resumes for them, and then
sent them to apply for housing, start-up business loans, and mid-to-
high level jobs, many Americans would be shocked to learn of the in-
consistencies in terms of who gets the vacant apartment and for how
much, who gets the business start-up money, and who gets hired for
what job. Economics is part of the puzzle, but clearly a focus there
wont completely solve the problem. If our nation is to be a true meri-
tocracy, we must fight to give a fair shot to poor people, women, and
people of color.
Let me share with you a little about my background for perspec-
tive. My friends and I grew up knowing that we were at risk. We were
labeled as an endangered species. It is very difficult for children
growing up in those circumstances to believe that life has anything
special to offer them. It is easy for people in this situation to either
fall into victimhood or get angry and make poor decisions that lead to
unfortunate consequences like jail or death.
I was able to overcome many challenges by focusing on education
even though we had outdated textbooks, inadequate facilities, little to
no extracurricular opportunities, no adequate science or chemistry
labs, swimming pool, or even a cafeteria in some cases. Education af-
forded me the opportunity to finally see over the invisible fence
around East St. Louis. Just because some of us made it out, doesnt
mean that others with high potential will necessarily make it out as
well. I am certainly a proponent of hard work and dedication, but this
may not do it alone. Expecting kids to work hard and make it out of
that situation is like saying since we saw one person win the lottery
that means that if we play the lottery hard enough, we should all win.
Wright
Tell us more about your experiences growing up in East Saint
Louis and how theyve helped shape who you are today.
Masters of Success
198
Conrad
I get this question all the time and I think it is impossible to go
back and determine specifically what it was that made me who I am
today. Let me say first of all, that I am extremely proud of where I
come from. I was the youngest of five children and I had a supportive
family, particularly my mother who did all she could to make me feel
special. I grew up in one of the worst housing projects in America, but
I recall at a very young age thinking there was something else in life
out there for me even though I did not see that same expectation in
the eyes of a lot of people I grew up with. Many people seemed to me
to be content with the hand that life had dealt them. I know now that
much of what I perceived as contentment was really hopelessness.
People felt like the odds were against them to be successful in the
traditional sense so they hardly even tried.
Somehow I knew there was something better out there and I felt
like if anybody could have it, I could. I refused to believe that my fu-
ture was already decided solely based on where I was born. We
always hear the old adage, If you cant beat them, join them, but I
adopted the philosophy that, If you cant join them, beat them. I
used this strategy when I saw images on television of people who
didnt look like me, read books by and about people who didnt think
like me, or heard success stories of people who had not been born into
the situation I had been.
I took education very seriously. I believed that education was the
key to unlocking the door of prosperity. I signed up for any after
school program, summer enrichment institute, and academic club I
could. I was also fortunate enough to have a creative outlet that en-
hanced my discipline, confidence, and public speaking skills. I used to
attend theatre rehearsals with my mother who was a member of an
acting troupe at Southern Illinois University where she was taking
some classes. At one rehearsal, one of the members was sick and
could not attend the rehearsal so they needed someone to just stand
in for him. When they asked for volunteers I raised my hand even
though I was only nine or ten years old. They were at first skeptical,
but grew more confident when they went to pass me the script and I
said I did not need it because I knew the lines already. Not only did I
know the lines, I delivered them with such passion and force that I
ended up being added as the youngest member of the troupe (every-
one else was at least collage age). I participated with the troupe for
several years thereafter. The experience with the Unity Ensemble
Jarik E. Conrad
199
really implanted in me the idea that one could accomplish anything
with desire, practice, and assertiveness.
Wright
So what do you say to kids growing up in a different environment
as you did?
Conrad
Again, confidence is everything! Despite the considerable obstacles
associated with growing up in difficult situations, anyone can be suc-
cessful if they truly believe they can and are willing to put in the
effort to achieve their goals. I think exposure to different places and
different activities is critically important also. When you grow up in a
place like East Saint Louis its hard to dream beyond the citys
boundaries and you become afraid to try new things. We see some-
thing on television and label it as a Black person or White person
thing. Kids need to get exposed to new things and not self-select out
of things based on stereotypes and ignorance. Such narrow-
mindedness could never have produced Tiger Woods or Venus and
Serena Williams to name a few.
Creative outlets are critical as well. Whether it is acting, dancing,
playing an instrument, drawing, sports, or the countless other posi-
tive activities to get involved in, these activities serve as a foundation
for learning important life-long lessons like discipline, hard work,
teamwork, and communication skills. Kids must also have courage.
Some people think that it is courageous to sell drugs, break the law,
and stay in trouble at school; however, it takes more courage to go out
and compete in a world that can sometimes seem so unfair.
Wright
Education is obviously important to you. In fact, by the time this
book is published you will be closer to earning your doctorate degree.
Tell us about your commitment to personal development.
Conrad
The importance of education cannot be overstated. It is just unfor-
tunate that when kids grow up in difficult situations it is a bit of a
stretch for them to focus on education when they are coping on the
daily struggles of life. For many children in America, basic survival
issues of food and shelter are foremost in their minds while they sit in
overcrowded classrooms reading outdated books about people with
Masters of Success
200
whom they have nothing in common. As concerned parents and citi-
zens, we need to work to make improvements in the education system
of this country so that all kids have a real opportunity to learn. I be-
lieve wholeheartedly in personal development outside of the
classroom as well. For instance, I wish more students from economi-
cally challenged backgrounds had the opportunity to study abroad.
Studying in a different country teaches individuals not just about the
specific coursework, but it teaches them about people and life in gen-
eral.
Learning new things is intoxicating for me. The more new things I
am exposed to the more Im reminded of how much I have yet to
learn. Even after the doctorate degree, I know I will be out learning
new things and figuring out what else is out there. A focus on per-
sonal learning is key for corporate or community leadership.
Wright
Many would say that you took a major risk by leaving a successful
corporate career behind to start your own company. What motivated
you to take the challenge?
Conrad
It is amazing how concerned people were when I first left corpo-
rate America. Hardly anyone could understand how a fast-tracked
young executive could suddenly leave a secure job and take such a
huge risk. The choice was easy for me though. While I wasnt miser-
able in my last corporate position, I wasnt satisfied that my
strengths were being fully utilized. I also looked around at some sen-
ior-level people in the organization and realized that was not the life
for me. Many of them did not seem happy. And I didnt want to fall
into that familiar routine.
I pride myself on having optionsI simply exercised one of my op-
tions when I left my job. I have always believed that one will perform
better doing something he or she really enjoys. Life is too short to be
stuck in a position that sucks your energy, drains your enthusiasm,
and kills your creativity. There are entirely too many challenging,
meaningful, rewarding, fun careers out there to be focused on some-
thing thats not making a difference in your life and in the lives of
others. I would encourage anyone to follow their passion as long as
they have the credentials and the experience they need.
Jarik E. Conrad
201
Wright
So what excites you most about the work you do with The Conrad
Consulting Group, LLC?
Conrad
Not knowing what the next challenge will be is exciting for me.
The opportunity to be creative and look for innovative solutions to
challenging problems has been great. I enjoy working with and
through people from various backgrounds. I am also very excited
about speaking opportunities where I am able to discuss elusive con-
cepts like leadership, diversity, emotional intelligence, and/or
overcoming difficult circumstances.
Adjunct teaching at Jacksonville University and teaching in the
Continuing Education Department at the University of North Florida
has also been very rewarding. I really enjoy seeing the light bulbs
light up over students heads when they acquire new knowledge; it
doesnt matter whether they are traditional juniors and seniors, or
adults whove gone back to further their education. I know I am mak-
ing a difference when I can see growth in my students.
Wright
Your wife Adrienne is a busy, successful lawyer. How do you guys
balance your professional and personal lives?
Conrad
First and foremost, I am extremely proud of her and I know that
shes proud of me. We made a commitment early on that we would
make sure to spend quality time with each other regardless of how
hectic our careers gotwe have seen many couples struggle with this.
We just try to learn from others mistakes. No job is more important
than my wife and I know she feels the same about me. We make a
deliberate effort to spend as much time together as we can especially
since we are planning on starting a family over the next couple of
years. I know its kind of taboo to some guys out there, but we golf
together as well. We share in the cooking and grocery shopping and
we even work out at the gym together. We also participate on some
local boards of directors together in the community. We both believe
that work-life balance is essential for good well-rounded leaders.
Masters of Success
202
Wright
In addition to planning to have children would you tell our readers
a little bit about your immediate goals and perhaps some of your long
term goals?
Conrad
I look forward to a successful Blueprint for Prosperity initiative,
which will improve the quality of life for the citizens of Jacksonville,
Florida. I am also committed to finishing my doctorate degree. I will
continue my professional speaking appearances and I plan to write
more about leadership, intercultural sensitivity, and emotional intel-
ligence.
There are a number of long-term interests I have, including devel-
oping a leadership institute here in Jacksonville, Florida, where
professionals from across the globe could come and discuss issues re-
lating to leadership, diversity, and emotional intelligence. Also, I
want to do something major in East Saint Louis. It is important to me
that I give back to that community because there are many young
people there who have the potential to achieve well beyond what I
have if they could only get exposure to the new things they need.
Another thing I havent ruled out is politics. My background and
experiences have left me with a unique perspective on a number of
controversial issues, particularly issues dealing with race relations; I
believe I can be a unifying force in this area.
Wright
Well what an interesting conversation, Jarik. I really do appreci-
ate the time youve taken with me this afternoon in giving me some
insight into some of the things you believe and some of the principles
to which you adhere. Its really been enlightening for me. I really ap-
preciate you spending the time with me.
Conrad
Thank you, David. I have enjoyed our conversation.
Wright
Today weve been talking to Jarik E. Conrad. He has a broad ex-
perience across a number of industries that include transportation,
retail, food and beverage, financial services, sports chemicals, and
aerospace companies. Through these experiences Jarik has been a
trusted advisor and international consultant to all levels of manage-
Jarik E. Conrad
203
ment. He is currently a doctorial candidate of the University of North
Florida.
Jarik, thank you so much for being with us today on Masters of
Success.
Masters of Success
204
About Jarik E. Conrad, SPHR
Jarik E. Conrad, SPHR is the President of The Conrad Consulting
Group, LLC, which is a leadership and human resource consulting
organization. He is also the Executive Director of Blueprint for Pros-
perity with the Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce. Jarik
has been a leader and trusted advisor to all levels of management at
various Fortune 500 companies during his career including McDon-
nell Douglas, Pillsbury, Union Carbide, Dain Rauscher, Citibank, and
CSX.

Jarik E. Conrad, SPHR
The Conrad Consulting Group, LLC
9838 Old Baymeadows Road, #325
Jacksonville, FL 32256
Phone: 904.565.1080
Email: [email protected]
www.conradconsultinggroup.net



205
Chapter Fifteen
STEVEN W. EDWARDS, PH.D.
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Dr. Steven W. Edwards, recognized by
USA Today for his innovative approach to leadership. Dr. Edwards
implemented numerous programs to improve student performance
during his sixteen-year tenure as a school administrator. He is an
internationally recognized speaker, facilitator, and trainer for organi-
zations including the United Nations and The World Bank. He is
featured as a content expert with appearances on CNN discussing
leadership, organizational climate, reform, and strategic planning. He
has published numerous articles and has authored a book on conflict
resolution. Hes also served as a university professor as well as the
Vice President of the National Crime Prevention Council in Washing-
ton D.C.
Dr. Edwards welcome to Masters of Success.
Dr. Steven W. Edwards (Edwards)
Thank you.
Wright
So would you tell our readers what is reality leadership?
Masters of Success
206
Edwards
Reality leadership addresses one of the major components of suc-
cessful leadership. It is the ability for organizations to clearly identify
their challenges and the issues they face. Far too often organizations
chase fads. I refer to them as fad-aholics chasing the current fad or
trend. Not that the fad is bad but the particular fad of the moment
may be something that may or may not assist them in moving their
agenda forward. Reality leadership is the ability to deal in reality. It
is about identifying and confronting your problems without hesitation
or reservation.
Wright
So what are the essential qualities of effective leaders?
Edwards
Effective leaders are able to set a visiona coursefor an organi-
zation. Effective leaders are those individuals who can motivate
others towards success. A leader without followers is basically some-
one whos just going for a walk. Effective leaders are change agents.
They deal in reality and confront real issues as well as brutal facts.
They lead the way, and they enable others to take action.
Wright
What do we know about organizational trust? Weve had a lot of
trust issues in the last few years, how do we build it?
Edwards
We build organizational trust by engaging others along the way.
Too often we operate in organizations from a hierarchical approach
which can contribute to mistrust. Trust is built when individuals
from all aspects of your organization share in the decision-making
process. When others are engaged in that process, they begin to take
ownership for the organization, which is critical to building a strong
foundation for organizational change. With organizational trust, we
see the opportunity for effective change to take place; but without it
no long-term sustainable change can occur.
Wright
In our company we had someone come to discuss some strategic
planning and vision with us. Let me pose the question to you: What is
vision and how do we go about creating it?
Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
207
Edwards
Vision is the art of seeing the invisible. It is the ideal stateif
everything was perfect this is what our organization would look like.
How do we get there? We need to build vision collaboratively; but as
leaders we need to help pave the way. And successfully engaging oth-
ers in that process is critically important. But the vision is that
driving force and that overarching goal that were constantly trying to
achieve. Although we may never get there, were constantly moving in
that direction. An organization without a clear vision is like a ship
without a compassit has no direction.
Wright
I was interested in the words you used: the art of, thats a con-
cept you rarely hear in the business world today.
Edwards
Right and I think it is an art. I think its an art form and its some-
thing not all individuals possess. A good leader can visualize the
complete picture before its painted, and has the intangible qualities
that inspire others to help achieve this vision. We can all color, but
were not all artists.
Wright
So how do we foster an organizational culture that drives success?
Edwards
To foster an organizational culture that drives success we need to
engage individuals from all aspects of the organization. We need to
focus not only on internal stakeholders, but also on others externally
who influence or have contact with that organization; they must be
engaged as well. That will vary from organization to organization.
Our customers, whoever they may be, are our external stakeholders
who need to be engaged in that process.
Building that collaborative culture however, only happens when
we have individuals working together and that takes time. It builds
off trust. You need a clear vision. People need to have an incentive to
do business a particular way and when those components come to-
gether we have the opportunity to build a collaborative culture.
Wright
How do we strengthen ourselves through strengthening others?
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208
Edwards
This is really about empowerment. Its often said that the success
of an organization is dependent upon what happens when that leader
leaves. We judge the effectiveness of the leader after theyve gone. In
other words, a great leader is able to create a situation where he or
she is no longer needed. By strengthening others, we become more
effective. In the hiring process we need to think about bringing in
people who have skills that are not similar to ours, so we can diver-
sify our skill base. We need to give others responsibilities for
leadership. We need to allow them to take risks without a fear of fail-
ure. When we do this, we create the opportunity to move an
organization forward and build a strong foundation built on a solid,
collaborative culture.
Wright
Whats the role of collaboration in successful organizational
change?
Edwards
Collaboration is a key element of organizational change. For a long
time in our society we operated on a model that was very hierarchi-
cal. During the 1980s the Total Quality Management (TQM)
movement was very popular as a result of Demings work. Demings
work was based on a Japanese model of management that is highly
collaborative. In the United States we struggled with this type of or-
ganizational model but we are making headway in understanding
that we cannot operate in isolationcollectively we are much more
effective. When we work in a team environment, we can build on
shared resources and share our collective experiences and talents and
minimize weaknesses. When we build that collaborative culture we
completely change the effectiveness of the organization. Creating
greater ownership builds a strong foundation for success.
Wright
What is the role of both internal and external stakeholders and
how do we maximize both for organizational success?
Edwards
I firmly believe we need to build organizations from the inside out.
We need to have our structureour way of doing businessin place
first. We need to create our own internal culture first before we move
Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
209
outside. In order to do this, however, we must have other people
working collaboratively to create effective change and create a suc-
cessful organizational model.
The role of internal stakeholders is critical. Moving from internal
to external, we also need to engage individuals who are key to our
success. Depending on the organization, that may vary; but its very
important to identify those key internal stakeholders and key exter-
nal stakeholders who need to be involved in any change initiative
right from the beginning. If theyre brought in right from the begin-
ning and we build that collaborative model, individuals will take
ownership. We will build institutional trust and create positive and
effective organizational change.
Wright
When examining organizational change, what is the impact on the
individual in the organization and in society?
Edwards
In any change initiative, it is important for leadership to examine
how that change initiative will impact individuals within the organi-
zation or individuals externally who may be impacted by that change.
They also need to examine how that initiative will impact the organi-
zation as a whole and what the greater impact is on society. We also
need to ask are we truly benefiting society from our efforts? This is
important because for true success to take place we need to be provid-
ing a service to the greater community. When decisions are made, we
must consider the impact on the individual, the organization, and so-
ciety. All three are connected. Without examining all three, we will be
shortsighted in our thinking and in our results.
Wright
For those readers who have difficultly changing, especially those
who have the mantra that if it aint broke dont fix it, and for those
who are trying to maintain the status quo, is there a danger in that?
Edwards
Ive always believed that maintaining the status quo is, in reality,
a move backwards. Individuals like to stay in their comfort zone.
Theres security in your comfort zone because there is security and
comfort in what you know. Theres often a fear of moving outside that
Masters of Success
210
comfort zone and in taking risks; but organizations that maintain the
status quo in our rapidly changing world are doomed to failure.
If we are to get individuals out of their comfort zones, they need to
be allowed and given the opportunity to take risks, and when they
take risks, they cannot be chastised for failing. Failure must be
thought of as an opportunity for growth. We need to create opportuni-
ties for individuals within all organizations to step outside the box, be
creative, take some risks, and when we do that we create the oppor-
tunity for the organization to build capacity and move forward.
Wright
How do we use data to drive our decisions?
Edwards
Data is extremely important in driving decision-making. It is very
important in making informed leadership decisions. Organizations
must know where they are before they can decide where they need to
go. When we talk about reality leadership were really talking about
identifying where we are, not our perception of where we are. The
best way to clearly understand where we are is by looking at data,
both quantitative and qualitative. Examining a combination of hard
numbers, interviews, surveys and anecdotal information will help us
garner the necessary information to identify our current state. With-
out effective data analysis and evaluation focusing on results, an
organization would be operating without clear direction, and would be
basing organizational decisions on perception rather than reality.
Wright
I think our readers would also like to know some simple rules or
techniques for dealing with people who resist change. So the final
question I would have for you is: how do we deal with resistance to
change?
Edwards
First we must understand that resistors exist in every organiza-
tion, and resistors resist for a variety of reasons. Before we look at
resistance, lets examine some realities for a leader of any organiza-
tion. Regardless of the circumstances, there will always be a group of
people who are very supportive, who are with you. Theres also a
group who appears to be against you, regardless of the circumstances.
Then theres a large group in the middle who can go either way. The
Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
211
challenge is to get that large group in the middle to align with those
people who are very supportive; this will create critical mass. Once
you create positive critical mass, positive change can take place.
When dealing with resistors, the goal is definitely to shrink the
number of resistors. To do this, you must identify who they are and
why theyre resisting. Once you do this, it is vitally important to en-
gage resisters. Unfortunately too often, leaders do not engage the
resistors and/or they let resistors influence the decisions of others.
When that happens, we end up with a case of the tail wagging the
dog. Too often a very few number of people drive organizational deci-
sions that may not be in the organizations or employees best
interest. So shrinking that number identifying them, having them
involved in different aspects of the organization that are critical to
the change initiatives, and having individuals who are resistors being
accountableis extremely important.
It is also critical to divide resistors so that they are not all engaged
in one particular group within an organization. Spread them out
among committees, task forces, departments or different initiatives.
It is also important to recognize and praise resistors when they are
correct; but also continually look at what their issues and challenges
are, and look for ways to get them to become greater contributors to
the overall success of the organization.
Wright
As a small business owner, are there any questions, any profiles or
anything I might use that would give me a clearer idea of people who
would be more willing to accept change as I go about the task of re-
cruiting and hiring?
Edwards
When we think about recruiting and hiring its vitally important
to hire people who have the skills that are consistent with the skills
youre looking for. Beyond that, we must also hire someone who has a
positive personality that will enhance the culture of the organization.
We know that people can be trained to perform certain tasks or func-
tions in an organization, but I dont know that people can be trained
to change their personality.
When we look to hire successful leaders and successful members of
any organization, too often we hire folks based solely on their techni-
cal ability. But in the long run their interpersonal skills and ability to
work collaboratively will measure their success, and in turn, the suc-
Masters of Success
212
cess of the organization. You can have all the technical skills neces-
sary to perform a job, but if you do not have the ability to work
collaboratively with others, an organization and any change initiative
will definitely stall.
Wright
Its very interesting. Well, I really appreciate your time today, Dr.
Edwards. Its really been informative for me and Im sure our readers
are going to enjoy your thoughts on organizational leadership. I really
do appreciate all this time you spent with me.
Edwards
Well thank you, I enjoyed it.
Wright
Today weve been talking to talking to Dr. Steven W. Edwards. He
is an internationally recognized speaker, facilitator, and trainer for
major organizations in this country. Hes also featured as a content
expert and has appeared on CNN discussing leadership, organiza-
tional climate, reform, and planning. In addition to publishing several
articles hes authored a book on conflict resolution. As we have found
out today he knows a great deal about leadership and specifically re-
ality leadership.
Thank you so much, Dr. Edwards, for being with us today on Mas-
ters of Success.
Edwards
Thank you.
Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
213
About Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
Recognized by USA Today for his innovative approach to education,
Dr. Edwards implemented numerous programs to improve student
performance during his sixteen-year tenure as a school administrator.
He is an internationally recognized speaker, facilitator and trainer for
organizations including The United Nations and the World Bank, and
is featured as a content expert with appearances on CNN discussing
leadership, organizational climate, reform, and strategic planning. He
has published numerous articles, and has authored a book on conflict
resolution. He has also served as a university professor, as well as the
Vice President of the National Crime Prevention Council in Washing-
ton, D.C.

Steven W. Edwards, Ph.D.
Phone: 202.359.5124
Email: [email protected]
www.sai-dc.com

214


215
Chapter Sixteen
JOHN CHRISTENSEN
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Today we are talking with John Christensen. Johns story begins
in the shipping department at Chart House Learning where he began
working as a teenager for his father, Ray. He worked his way to the
top the old fashioned way, having to prove to his father and the com-
pany that he was a real filmmaker who could tell moving stories.
Today Mr. Christensen guides Chart House as playground director,
which is business talk for CEO, with an inspiring vision of an en-
gaged workplace that can be developed through the Fish Philosophy.
Chart House Learning is changing the way business is done world-
wide. Like his dad before him, John created an eloquent language to
transform lives. In 1997, he translated what happens daily at Seat-
tles world famous Pike Place Fish Markets culture into a vital global
learning program called Fish and changed the entire business film
industry. In the process, John also achieved his lifelong dream of how
to turn workplaces into energetic, creative, and wholehearted en-
deavors with the four simple principles embodied in the Fish
Philosophy.
John Christensen, welcome to Masters of Success.
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216
John Christensen (Christensen)
Thank you, David. I appreciate that.
Wright
John, obviously, my first question is what are the four simple
principles of Fish Philosophy?
Christensen
The four simple principles are play, make their day, be there, and
choose your attitude.
Wright
Play? In other words were supposed to play at work?
Christensen
Yes. Play is the basis of where creativity and innovation happens.
And if you look back into your own life and see where you were most
creative, it was in those moments of play and inspiration where you
got lost in the moment. We call that play. Now if corporations are
scared by that, think of it as lightheartedness. Think of it as taking
your work seriously, but take yourself lightheartedly.
Wright
So tell us a little bit about what you do at Chart House Learning.
Christensen
We are kind of like cultural anthropologists. We study things that
are out in the world, then we help put a language to it. For instance,
thats what I saw at the fish market. I saw these fish mongers being
totally engaged in their work and said, Wait a minute! Wait a min-
ute! Theres something deeper going on than just play and all this
craziness that I see on the shop floor. So we interpret that, then put
a language around things, and help get that out into the business
world. Its not only in the business world, schools are using it, too.
Wright
When you say language, youre talking about terms that can be
understood universally?
John Christensen
217
Christensen
Yes, absolutely. In Fish, its ancient wisdom thats been resurfaced
and brought to you in a new way and in an unlikely placea fish
market.
Wright
While preparing for this interview, I read that the first film in
your series titled, The Business Paradise is the best selling film of all
time. Is that true?
Christensen
Yes.
Wright
My goodness!
Christensen
Yes. That was first created in the 80s, with my father and a futur-
ist. Its been translated in many, many languages. Fish is creeping up
there, though. Its going to surpass The Business Paradise someday.
Wright
When you speak and train, how do you motivate people to create
workplaces that are joyful and innovative, lighthearted and whole-
hearted?
Christensen
The interesting part of all this is when we tell them and they see
the film or read the book, theres something that connects inside them
that says either they had this in them or they were searching for
thisthis lightheartedness, this engagement of being at work and
being engaged in what you do. Weve made a film series with a poet
named David White. David talks about being wholehearted. He has a
friend, a monk friend, who said, The way around burnout isnt nec-
essarily burnout. Its being wholehearted in what you do. Now thats
incredible. That says, if you come to work and youre totally engaged
and enjoy what you are doing, the day goes by much quicker and
youre going to be connected to it.
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218
Wright
Do you find many CEOs, or especially upper management people,
that are a little
Christensen
Apprehensive of this?
Wright
Yes.
Christensen
Yes, there is. But the ones who embrace it and get it, stand back.
Watch out for their organizations! For instance, the CEO of Aspen Ski
Co., a ski company in Aspen, Colorado, who has embraced it said,
This is the pull; this is what were going to be. This is the way were
going to service our employees. Were going to be engaged with what
we do. They have 3500 seasonal employees. They teach them every
year. They teach them the Fish Philosophy when the new group
comes in, or even part of the old group comes in. They resurface this
and say, Remember, be engaged. And when they open that playing
field and they give them the boundaries of saying, Okay, safety is
first in any business; heres the playing fields. Be safe. Dont do any-
thing thats rude or crude. They saw things happening.
For example, like a guya young mancreated his super hero
called Captain Iowa. And hed fly kids through the lift line up to the
front and hed help create an atmosphere in the lift line. When theyre
standing there for twenty-five minutes, that was engaging. They
started karaoke in the waiting lines, and they do limbo in the waiting
lines for the lifts. Now that created an atmosphere because, again,
the CEO is saying, Look, we have great snow and the same moun-
tains as the other resorts. What separates us from the other people?
What separates us from our other ski friends? It was the way they
engaged with customers.
Thats the way, first and foremost, to have people engage in their
work and be happy with where they are. Im not just talking about
making a Pollyannaish happy, happy workplace. Im talking about
people being engaged in what they do. Now if you have that and you
create that kind of atmosphere, watch out! Your bottom line is going
to go up. Your retention is going to go down.
Another thing that we find thats just really amazing is, when you
step back and analyze it, were in our places of work more than we
John Christensen
219
are in our places of worship, more than we are in the great outdoors,
and more than we are with our families. Now if we cant connect to
that, be engaged and have a joyfulness to what we do, thats a sad
statement saying, Look at your life. Look at the hours you spend
there, what are you giving it to? What are you spending your lifes
energy on? What are you giving, where are you giving your energy,
your life energy too? Is this the place that you really want to be? Is
this the place thats going to make you flourish?
Wright
What do you mean by make their day? Are these management
theories that apply to employees, or are these employee theories that
apply to customers?
Christensen
It includes absolutely everyone. Its employee-to-employee, its
employer-to-employee and its employee to customer. Its the whole
thing. Im saying, if you come with that attitude, again, your life is
about what you are giving to people. Make their day is just a new
term of saying, be it, make peoples day.
Serving others is when we really find joy. No matter if the CEO is
talking to a vice-president or a president, or an employee is talking to
a guest in a hotel, Im saying make peoples day! And it doesnt take
much. Its really amazing the stories that we hear about the little nu-
ances of what makes peoples day. I mean, just being with a person
that moves into being there. What does being there mean? It means
just being in the moment with a person. For example, if youre trying
to talk to somebody in your office and youve got the phone ringing
and a message on your cell phone, put all those distractions away. Let
voicemail answer the phone, put the cell phone away, and be with the
person. When youre in the presence of a person, they can feel it. Do I
have time to share a story with you?
Wright
Sure.
Christensen
There was a policeman who was in the service area of a jail, the
booking agent shall we say. The police department he worked for
went through the Fish Philosophy teaching, and he got aware of being
present and making peoples day. The prison guard was totally in the
Masters of Success
220
moment with a shoplifter, who was being booked for shoplifting. He
gave the person dignity and respect. The prisoner started to weep,
saying, Ive never been treated this way in my life, much less Im be-
ing booked for a crime I know I did. Thats being present. That made
that guys day! That made that guys life, maybe. Who knows?
Fish brings to the surface what people have in them. It gives them
a way to say, I can do this. I have permission. My organization has
shown me the light of being a day maker. Be private with people.
When youre choosing your attitude, making peoples day, and being
present for people, guess what? The appropriate play comes out.
Wright
In reference to the third principle, choose your attitude, were pub-
lishing a book for a man now about attitude. One of his favorite
sayings is, The difference between a good day and a bad day is your
attitude.
Christensen
Absolutely. We all have magnificent stories about our lives. But if
you look at people that have tragedies in some respect, and they come
whistling in, what is that? How would we face some of these tragedies
if they would happen to us? That is what we mean by choose your at-
titude.
Wright
John, Id like to quote something you said referring to business.
The quote is: We need people who are passionate, committed, and
free to live the organizations vision through their personal value.
Would you explain what you were talking about?
Christensen
Yes. When you have an alignment with what you stand for as an
individual and what the company, the organization, is standing for,
step out of the way. Watch out! Watch the power that happens to
that.
Wright
When you talk about businesses, you use words like love and
soul.
John Christensen
221
Christensen
Right.
Wright
Most people would think that spiritual values would not be appro-
priate in a business setting. Do companies accept your spiritual
values as necessary ingredients to success?
Christensen
Theres a whole new movement out there about spirituality. I want
it to be clear. Were not talking religion. Were talking about the spirit
and soul of people. And that brings the soul of a business alive. We
made a film with Southwest Airlines. Southwest Airlines was
founded on the following statement by Herb Kelleher and his two
buddies: We wanted to create a workplace based on love rather than
fear. Now, if Southwest Airlines with 33,000 employees is based on
love and is doing incredibly well in the airline industry, is that not a
valuable statement to everybody in business?
Wright
Is there anything or anyone in your life that has made a difference
for you and helped you to become a better person?
Christensen
I have a lot of mentors in my life. My parents have been incredible
mentors. My mom was a social worker and a very incredible people
woman, and my dad was an artist. And when you combine those two,
theyve been wonderful mentors for me. Ive also had the blessings of
having Ken Blanchard as a mentor and Spencer Johnson. So Ive had
great mentors in that respect, too.
Wright
I was talking to Jim Cathcart the other day. I told him that one of
my mentors had no knowledge of his being a mentor, and that was
Bill Gove from Florida who I have been listening to his talks and
tapes and reading his books for probably forty years.
What do you think makes up a mentor? In other words, are there
characteristics that mentors seem to have in common?
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222
Christensen
I believe theyre different for everybody. I mean everybody finds a
different mentor. I think some of the beautiful mentorships happen
when a person takes you under their wing.
Another inspiration for me is Norman Vincent Peale. Okay, hes
got religion in there, but his being was a mentorship for me. His pres-
ence, the way he spoke so eloquently and so much passion, thats
what mentored me. You can get inspired by many different things. If
a tape or a book inspires you and becomes your mentor, fabulous.
When it opens you up to the possibilities in your life, be it a book, a
mentor, a tape, a film, they are all wonderful aspects of opening you
up to possibilities.
Wright
I remember when I was in Seattle a few years ago and saw the
people working in the company that you wrote about, I remember two
feelings. One is a feeling that this would be a nice place to buy some-
thing. But the biggest feeling was these guys are really happy and
fun. And theyve got a tough job too. Thats not one of your bank
presidents type jobs.
Christensen
No. Hey, they dont work in air conditioning in the summer and
heating in the winter. They work with dead fish, ice and cold cement
floors. Ive wiped out there many a time. Its just showing you the
possibilities that if they can do it with their hands in dead fish, cold
ice, and twelve-hour days, thats whats so powerful about it. Thats
why we call it the Fish Philosophy. Its based on the fact that if the
fish market can do it, you can do it. But the philosophy is ancient
wisdom but its coming alive on a fish market. And if a fish market
can do it, we all can do it.
Wright
Weve talked about three out of four of the principles; the last one
Id like to ask you about is the principle be there. Do you mean come
to work on time and be there? Or be there for people?
Christensen
Be there for people. I mean absolutely be in the moment. Like I
was saying, when youre with somebody, put the other things down. I
catch myself so many times sitting at my desk when people come in,
John Christensen
223
and Im reading something, or half with them or not. You have to take
that moment and put what youre doing down and be there for them.
Another good little exercise to do is when the phone rings, take a
moment before you pick it up and just pause. Think about what
youre going to do on the phone. It doesnt matter if its a sales person
or whatever, just remember to be there in the moment when youre on
the phone with a person. Its an interesting little exercise of being
present.
Wright
Most people are fascinated with these new television programs
about being a survivor. What has been the greatest comeback you
have made from adversity in your career or in your life?
Christensen
Wow! The biggest adversity? Well, there are two. We went through
a stint with a company where some people tried to take over our busi-
ness, and I made it through that. But one of the things was living up
to my mentormy fatherand having knowing in my heart and my
gut that I had the capacity to leave the company and to be a great
filmmaker like my father. And I dont mean great in a cocky way. Im
saying bringing what we bring to the table of documentaries. Showing
the world what possibilities are. Thats what I mean by great. That
was a high. That was a hurdle to work through.
Wright
When I was researching for this interview, I noticed on your web-
site they also referred to Joel Barker, the futurist who helped your
father.
Christensen
Futurist, correct.
Wright
And so your father started making what? Documentary films?
Christensen
Yes. He started off in advertising just when television was getting
started in the late 50s. He happened to be in love with the documen-
tary approach. He pursued the documentarian lifestyle and would go
off and make films. What he brought to the table was this unique-
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224
ness, this anthropological aspect into looking at things, studying it,
and saying, What can we do to show that? For instance, when his
career started off in Omaha, Nebraska, he made a film about the city
of Omaha. But through the whole film, you didnt know where you
were until the end of the film, Come See Our City, Omaha. But it
showed you who the people were, what the organizations were like in
Omaha, and youd like to come and live here and build your business
here. So he brought that approach to it. Lets study it. Lets bring it.
Lets show people what its about instead of telling them, Again,
thats what happened with the paradigm idea. Lets look at a para-
digm. Lets look at it all these different ways. If it doesnt get you this
way, look at it this way. Look at it this way. If this story doesnt con-
nect with you, look at it this way. Ah, and then you can relate to that.
Wright
The free-wheeling workplace of the 1990s is long gone. Companies
are cutting perks. Employees are reverting from casual attire to busi-
ness wear. How can employees really play at work when the reins are
being pulled back so tightly?
Christensen
Well, thats our point. The reigns shouldnt be pulled back so
tightly. Ken Blanchard calls it the tight underwear syndrome. We
need to get rid of that. We need to free people up because when youre
free is when creativity and innovation happens. I dont know where
the quote comes from, but it was said, If works were plays, Silicon
Valley would not have been created. Because it would out the play.
Two guys in their garage, I mean how many guys were in their ga-
rage playing, tinkering around, right? Hewlett Packard, Apple, I
mean how many more can we list? They were playing!
See, its the playfulness in which they react to each other and re-
act to customers at the fish market. You can see what theyre doing
and make your own style. It opens you up to say, What can we do
that is about playfulness?
Wright
Ive heard about the impact that Fish is having on corporate
America. Has it been used outside the business world?
John Christensen
225
Wright
Schools are one of our biggest clientele. Its amazing. We are now
creating a curriculum for schools. Were working on creating how to
bring this in. If you could talk about being present to what you are
doing and making peoples day to elementary students, imagine what
possibilities lie in the future for that!
Wright
Are you having more success getting it into the private schools or
public schools?
Christensen
Public schools are embracing it. First and foremost, whats hap-
pening is that the administration and the teachers are being brought
into this, talking about how they can engage with their work. Again,
you said the budget crunches and the tightening of the ropes, and
with all that, how are we going to? It goes back to saying, What kind
of organization can we be that is going to help people be engaged in
what were here for?
We have a roofing company that used this that turned their entire
company around into roofing, and now theyre a world famous roofing
company. They get roofing jobs in different places in the world. They
just showed up in a different way. They were being something differ-
ent.
Now, back to education. If you are being present in the classroom
for your kids as a participant, not even as customer youre saying,
Theyre the customers, I have to serve them. Theyre there to teach
you as much as you are there to teach them. My goodness! That was
my first love. I wanted to be a teacher saying, What can you bring to
the table?
John Keating in the film Dead Poets Society is the kind of teacher
we needpeople engaged in the minds of our youth saying, How do I
get to them? How do I reach them? How am I there with them? What
do I do to make their day? Were actually working on the concept of
saying the four principles of Fish are the rules of the classroom. What
am I doing today to play, to be playful? This works both ways. This is
teacher and student, partner-to-partner. What are we doing to make
the classroom fun? What are we doing to make each others day? How
am I being there for you? How are you being there for me? How are
you being there for your other your peers? And first and foremost,
Masters of Success
226
how are you choosing to come to school? How are you choosing to be
today?
Wright
Very interesting. Boy, this has been a fast, fast thirty minutes,
and I really do appreciate your being a guest today. I really appreci-
ate you taking the time.
Today we have been talking with John Christensen whose story
began as he said working with his father as a great role model. Youve
heard the intelligent statements and how the Fish Philosophy can
literally change you and your companys future, as its changing some
in America.
So, let me ask you before we leave, Id like to shamelessly adver-
tise the book. I think everyone should read it. I know youre making
good at Amazon.com. Can people get it direct from you or can they
find out more on your website? If youll give us that information, I
would appreciate it.
Christensen
Absolutely. It is available at www.charthouse.com. Inside of
charthouse you can go to fishphilosophy.com, which is a whole web-
site with all the fish information. You can purchase all sorts of our
films including our ancillary products, our fishing gear, and you can
purchase the books. Now there are two books on the market, David.
Theres First Fish! and our second one that came out in April called
Fish Tales.
Wright
I hope our readers and our listeners will rush to the website and
get this book. Ive got Fish Tales. Im going to get the first one.
Christensen
Thank you, David. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your
time.
John Christensen
227
About John Christensen
John Christensens story begins in the shipping department at
ChartHouse Learning where he began working as a teenager for his
father, Ray. He worked his way to the top the old-fashioned way,
proving to his fatherand the companythat he was a real film-
maker who could tell moving stories. Today Christensen guides
ChartHouse as Playground Director (CEO in business-speak) with
an inspiring vision of an engaged workplace that can be developed
through the FISH! Philosophy. The rest of the story is that Chart-
House Learning is changing the way business is done worldwide.
The ChartHouse vision is an invitation to people to become fully
immersed in their lives, using these four seemingly simplistic ideas,
he says. In many ways the FISH! Philosophy is really ancient wis-
dom for modern times, a lifestyle choice to engage in life-long learning
and self-improvement. The products we offer are really learning tools,
from some of the best mentors one could havereal-life experiences
that ultimately speak to the human spirit. Today John speaks to
vastly different organizations about his journeythe serendipitous
discovery of the fish marketand how that simple FISH! Philosophy
he and his team poetically articulated on film four years ago can
dramatically change the stories of companies and individuals.

John Christensen
www.charthouse.com
www.fishphilopophy.com

228


229
Chapter Seventeen
DONNA DOUGHERTY
THE INTERVIEW
David E. Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Donna Dougherty. Donna has an impres-
sive record of helping organizations execute projects more efficiently.
She engagingly translates Project Management Institute (PMI) based
Project Management Principles into realistic action plans. Shes con-
ducted more than 700 workshops on project topics throughout the
United States, Belgium, the Soviet Union, Ireland, and Scotland.
She holds an MBA from Fuqua Business School, at Duke, and has
served as an executive for a Fortune 500 firm. She is an expert in the
creation of collaborative project plans. She also specializes in mentor-
ing people as they transition from independent solo contributor roles
to the collaborative interdependent work style needed for project suc-
cess.
Donna, welcome to Masters of Success!
Donna Dougherty (Dougherty)
Thank you, David!
Wright
Right up front let me ask you, what is a project?
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230
Dougherty
A project is a temporary endeavor. It is not ongoing. It has a be-
ginning, a middle, and an end. Everyone has project experience even
if theyve never had the formal title, project manager (PM). Life is full
of projects.
Examples of projects are: Weddings, funerals, earning a college
degree, buying a house, getting a divorce, healing from an illness, get-
ting out of debt, raising children, and saving for retirement. Projects
are goal oriented, and are multi-task endeavors. A project is a series
of tasks when combined, create a roadmap for the completion of the
project goal.
Wright
So what is the difference between project management and gen-
eral management?
Dougherty
With general or functional management things are pretty much up
and running. Managers make sure things stay up and running. They
hire, they fire, and they manage problems and changes. In projects
youve got to figure out the project goal, which can be a project in it-
self. Then you have to actually accomplish that goal and keep things
up and running simultaneously.
Projects can be more intellectually challenging than managing on-
going operations. Projects will often require heightened creativity,
innovation, and problem-solving capability.
Because projects are not business as usual, youve got to create a
road map to guide you. Since theres no proven procedure, theres a
merging of the planned road maphow you think things are going to
work out and the reality of what actually occurs.
Plan A doesnt always work. So, heres a good way to look at it,
David: Being a PM is a bit like being a commercial airline pilot. Pilots
are off course most of the time so they have to continually adjust their
course in flight. We, as passengers, dont even know thats happening
and we dont care. As long as we land in the right city, on the right
day, safely, we are happy. In projects, you are often adjusting your
course all the way through.
Wright
Why in your opinion, has project management become such a hot,
highly marketable skill?
Donna Dougherty
231
Dougherty
There are a lot of reasons. I think one of the main reasons is that
organizations are continually downsizing, rightsizing, and shedding
people. Theyre trying to look good in the earnings report or just stay
in business, and they find themselves needing to do more with less.
Doing projects more effectively really helps meet the challenge of do-
ing more with less. Let me give you a statistic thats hard to believe
partially because it is such a powerful claim: people who manage pro-
jects according to best practice methodology can do a project in one
third of the time it takes a PM who doesnt use proven PM methodol-
ogy. Of course, this isnt always true, because some organizations are
already masterful at doing projects. Theyve squeezed a lot of fat out
of their timelines already. What it does mean is that many organiza-
tions could do three times the number of projects without spending
more money or adding more people. This is quite a claima claim Ive
found to be true. This is one of the main reasons project management
is a hot, and highly marketable skill.
Wright
So what are other benefits of executing projects well?
Dougherty
Beyond shortened timelines, increased profit margins, preserved
resources, improved competitive advantage, and market share, there
are the internal career opportunities that parallel effective project
execution. Raises, bonuses, and upward mobility all typically exist
when organizations do a good job at getting projects done.

Wright
Can a good PM overcome the barriers of a dysfunctional culture?

Dougherty
As organizations strive to do projects better, the organizations
themselves are transformed in the process. Heres one real-world ex-
ample: A start-up tech company of engineers fled a large, highly
dysfunctional organization. When they left, they had several mis-
sions. They wanted to create a company that had a project friendly
culture. One project goal was to design a faster semi-conductor chip.
A big company invested in them so they were able to hire fast and
furiously and hired mostly from the firm they fled. It didnt take them
long to realize that they had inadvertently recreated the same dys-
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232
functional culture they were trying to get away from. To fix this, they
looked at what was getting in the way of their project productivity.
What they discovered were typical organizational vulnerabilities such
as scape-goating, a reluctance to delegate, inadequate communication
across functions, and bobble-head yes-people who didnt tell the
truth. The team created ground rules in an effort to do projects bet-
ter. A few samples of the ground rules they created and adopted
include:
When problems arise, we problem-solve. We dont place
blame. Scape-goating is not allowed here.
We talk with each othernot about each other. Trashing
the invisible person is not permitted.
We assume best intention, no matter what the outcome
innocent until proven guilty.
If your end of the boat has sprung a leak, speak up, or
your end of the boat may take my end down. Spotlight
trouble sooner rather than later!
They transformed their work place even though not everyone went
along with the ground rules. In the end, the little start-up tech com-
pany sold for a billion dollars even before they created the faster
semi-conductor chip! When the sale was made, reporters asked the
acquiring company, How could you pay a billion dollars for this fledg-
ling little start-up? Their reply was that out of all the start-ups
theyd ever acquired, it was humming and buzzing better than any
theyd seen.
The start-up reinvented itself so it could do projects better. They
made a conscious decision to work with each other in a way that in-
creased trust, productivity, and a willingness to take risks. By the
way, the acquiring company did get their billion dollars worth, in a
faster semi-conductor chip. They were able to get the project done in
record time! Not only did they have project success, the company and
the team members involved were transformed in the process.
I dont care what kind of culture PMs find themselves in, they can
create a healthier culture within a dysfunctional culture. They can do
this by examining what gets in the way of productivity and then
choosing more intelligent behaviors that support productivity better.
These new ground rules need to come primarily from the team (i.e.,
bottom-up rather than top-down). The ground rules need to serve
team members, so they need to come from team members.
Donna Dougherty
233
Wright
Tell me, what is the Project Management Institute?
Dougherty
The Project Management Institute (PMI), www.pmi.org, is the
largest global project management association. Formed in Philadel-
phia, in 1969, PMI represents more than 1,000 project management
members from every major industry. It was formed to help recognize
project management as a discipline. PMI has captured a body of
knowledge about how to do projects effectively, and has published a
guidebook called the Project Management Body of Knowledge
(PMBOK Guide).
They took project knowledge from many industries including the
military and created a foundation framework for initiating, planning,
executing, and closing out projects. The PMI process and structure
sets you up for success by helping you know what to think through for
the plan, and how to avoid predictable pitfalls throughout all stages
of the project.
Wright
Is the PMI methodology really flexible enough to be used across
industries?
Dougherty
Yes, it is. PMI has created the framework for how to do projects
well. The PMI methodology liberates rather than bogs down PMs. It
provides a basic structured approach, which allows PMs the flexibility
to tailor their project work to their specific challenges and opportuni-
ties.
Its almost like building a house. Once you have the structure up,
you have the freedom to decorate any way you want. Thats how this
methodology is, so PMs dont have to reinvent the wheel when provid-
ing the structure, or necessary phases for the project. They know that
the bases are going to be covered and their general approach is solid.
It gives PMs the confidence that they are moving forward in a best
practice, road-tested way. At the same time, the PM is in charge of
the methodology, the methodology is not the boss of the PM. The
methodology is a tool. The PM gets to decide to what extent to use the
tool.
Masters of Success
234
Wright
When PMs use methodology, how does it impact their workload?
Dougherty
Before I knew PMI PM methodology I used my management and
leadership skills to get projects done, because thats all I knew. It
wasnt enough. What happens if PMs dont know PM methodology is
that they end up working too many hours, which doesnt work long
term. The PM experiences burnout and is not a good role model for
the team. Those who dont take good care of themselves are going to
eventually lose competencenot gain itby working a ridiculous
number of hours. In my case, once I learned how to plan well and exe-
cute according to the PMI approach, I tripled the number of projects I
was able to handleand I still had a life!
By using PM methodology, PMs manage the project more than the
project is going to manage them. PM methodology actually provides a
checklist of what to do at each stage of the project.
Wright
How can a PM possibly succeed when expectations are often unre-
alistic from the start?
Dougherty
The project originators ask for whatever they want, and chances
are they dont realize the difficulty involved in creating what they are
asking for.
What they want is often just a starting placethe place to begin to
negotiate about what can be accomplished given the time, money, and
resources available. A PM has to be an educator to help the project
originator (internal or external customer) know what its going to
take and then match up what they want with what they can afford.
This step is often short changed and expectations become unrealistic
wish lists.
Wright
Since projects usually dont go according to plan, why waste the
time planning?
Dougherty
Thats the attitude most people have. As a matter of fact, Ive
heard it said many times, With projects, planning is useless. But
Donna Dougherty
235
without planning youre dead. Youd never go on a long road trip
without a map. When you get off course, if you have a map and a plan
you can stop the car and see where you are compared with where you
want to be. You can then figure out how to get back on course.
Thats how it is with projects. If you have a blueprinta road
mapyou know when youre veering off course. In projects, some-
times youve got to change course because the original roadmap just
isnt working. In the doing of projects comes more knowing. As you
move forward on the plan you gain more visibility. You will see things
you didnt see beforeboth risks and opportunities. It is necessary to
be willing to adjust the roadmap to reflect the reality at hand. With-
out a roadmap its impossible to tell when you veer off course, making
it even more impossible to get back on course!
Theres a prevailing attitude about planning, David. What is often
said is, We dont have the time to plan, but somehow well find the
time to clean up the mess we make later. Planning takes time, and
time is money. The investment in upfront planning is very small
compared to the desperate and expensive, heroic efforts to put out
fires in the final stages of the project. When you take the time to kick
the tires on the plan and make it the best plan current knowledge
allows, youll avert most of your problems in the planning stage.
Wright
So what are the main things that go wrong with project execution?
Dougherty
There are many things that can go wrong, but there are three
problems that plague most projects if you dont guard against them:
1. The first problem is not having a specific and measurable
project definition. Projects are begun and the target is not
defined. You know why that happens? Upper level man-
agement or external customers ask the PM to do whatever
they want done. The PM doesnt want to be a pest so not
enough questions are asked. Not obtaining clear informa-
tion about the definition of the project target is a huge
mistake. It is almost impossible to recover from this kind
of mistake because the target keeps moving during the
project. It is not possible to hit moving target(s)! The PM
must be crystal clear about what is to be done before at-
tempting to do it. It can take several rounds of
interrogation before the PM really has the project defini-
Masters of Success
236
tion nailed down. In addition to knowing what needs to be
delivered, it is equally important to document what is not
in the project. This protects the PM from expanding ex-
pectations once the project is begun, called scope creep.
2. The second big problem is when we shortchange planning.
We are very action oriented in this country and we ha-
vent had much successful experience in collaborative
planning. It doesnt make sense, really, because organiza-
tions hire the best and the brightest people, yet dont have
a system of tapping into the collective IQ.
Weve all been in meetings that last forever and the only
thing decided is when the next meeting will be. The lack
of collaborative planning is the second big mistake we
make in projects.
3. The third major mistake PMs make is to drift into doing
the tasks rather than managing the project. PMs
sometimes have dual roles and may be more comfortable
doing tasks. Its important to allocate sufficient time to
managing the project, and not hide out in the more con-
trollable task work.
Wright
Beyond understanding project methodology, what skills does a
person need to be a successful PM?
Dougherty
PMs success is fifty percent dependent on their ability to get
things done through others, and about fifty percent dependent on
utilizing PM methodology. Delegation, motivation, coaching, negotiat-
ing, problem-solving, and change management skills are needed. PMs
need to be able to follow up on people and hold them accountable in a
way that helps rather then hurts productivity. Facilitating project
meetings is also very important. It, too, needs to be done in a way
that supports rather than impedes productivity.
Wright
So what are the most frequent mistakes rookie PMs make?
Dougherty
Becoming a control freak. Rookie PMs are more comfortable in
their area of expertise, they feel almost like frauds when they try to
Donna Dougherty
237
manage or lead people beyond their expertise at first. So, when
theres a problem they get pulled back into the weeds. They focus on
what they know instead of keeping their head up and looking at the
big picture. Ive heard it said this way, If youre the captain of a ship
and youd really rather be making soup in the galley, you could be
heading for an iceberg!
Wright
So how do you keep the momentum up on projects?
Dougherty
That is a really good question and we have great guru minds to
help us out with that. Ken Blanchard is one of them. In his One Min-
ute Manager series he provides guidance that works when you are
working with people to get things done. The answer is to catch people
doing something good, and acknowledge that specific progress. As the
PM notices the success and makes it visible by praising the specific
behavior, the PM is training the team in what to do more of. This
really helps momentum.
The opposite is what some PMs end up doing. PMs often dont fo-
cus on what has been accomplished; they just see the mountain of
work that has yet to be done. Many times project team members, par-
ticularly with a task technical focus, are very hard on themselves.
They dont pat themselves on the back along the way. So, Ken
Blanchards guidance is great! Recognize specific and measurable
progresscelebrate it, even though youre dragging problems with
you along the way.
Wright
Why in the world would anyone want to be a PM when theyre in
the hot seat from start to finish?
Dougherty
That is true, youre in the middle as a PM. You feel like a war-
rior. Youre trying to get what you need for your project team and
youre the go to person to blame if things dont go well. When you do
succeed, youll get more projects as a reward!
When projects are planned well and executed well, project work is
fun and very exhilarating. Most projects exist to make the world a
better place in some waya new or improved product or service.
Masters of Success
238
Unless youre in the Mafia or up to no good, theres good intention
behind the project, so its easy to be passionate about project work.
In projects, we are often called upon to use more of our untapped
potential. Team members learn new skills along the way. The innova-
tive, creative experiments and learning along the way is like mental
chocolate. Learning and really using ourselves full throttle is ener-
gizing and just plain fun. Ive seen organizations become learning
organizations as a result of trying to do projects better.
Because project results are measurable, you can win at the game
of project management, and keep score along the way.
Wright
To what extent should software be used as a tool?
Dougherty
You have part of the answer in your question, David. PM software
is a toolonly a tool. Software can help you streamline reporting; you
print project plans in a few minutes; and it can help with what if
analyses as you explore different options. Software can do complex
mathematical calculations instantly.
Frequently, rookie PMs buy the software, learn it, and think they
know project methodology. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
The methodology sets you up for success; the software is about data
entry. The data entry should happen separately from, and after the
planning. Data entry should be done prior to execution, when the
plan has become relatively stable. It is a mistake to go to the software
first, before doing the collaborative planning. Collaborative planning
is more of a right brain kind of thinking process, while data entry is
more of a left brain perfectionist process and can easily stifle new
ideas.
Software cant communicate for the PM; it cant find errors in data
input (i.e., junk in, junk out). It cant solve problems that require
judgment, it cant facilitate collaboration, it cant make decisions, and
it cant lead. You do need software, but its important not to overuse
it. Its just a tool. It does some things well, yet cant do, and never will
do, the real project management work.
Wright
How can PMs protect themselves from overload and ultimate
burnout?
Donna Dougherty
239
Dougherty
The path of least resistancethe choice to work longer hours
does lead to burnout.
What efficiency expert psychologists say is that we can work up to
about fifty-five hours a week without much fear of burnout. Beyond
that, were pretty much headed for trouble. It is important that PMs
do not stay glued to the project days, nights, and weekends. Ive read
a lot about Ben Franklin and Thomas Edison and how they solved
problems on their projects. Both say they often got their best ideas
and solutions when they turned away from their work and were doing
something totally unrelated.
PMs need to delegate, use methodology, and make sure they take
care of themselves. They need to know how to say no and push back
when they really cant take on any more work.
PMs are a finite resource and in every project theres an infinite
number of things to do. So, PMs have to be very careful about how
they spend their time and energy. Thats why the methodology helps
because it shows the PM the most important things to focus on. Pro-
ject methodology is about prioritizing. Its about doing what needs to
be done, to the extent it needs to be done.
The PMI approach reminds us to get clear about the definition,
and hold people accountable for results. When PMs pay attention to
the main things, they can utilize project leads to do non-critical work.
When PMs are doing the most important things, not only can they get
the project done, but they can also develop the capabilities of team
members along the way.
Wright
So let me sum up, if I were to run an advertisement in the morn-
ings newspaper to get a PM, it might read: Intelligent person needed
who loves pain and wants to sit in hot seat.
Dougherty
Yes, a PM is a person who likes adventure and who can take the
unpredictable, make it as predictable as possible, and collaborate
with others while theyre doing it. A PM is also a person who likes to
make progress against the plan, and who is willing to change the plan
to reflect reality when Plan A just isnt working. Most importantly, a
PM is a person who is interested in getting things done utilizing oth-
ers, and developing people along the way.
Masters of Success
240
Wright
Well, your ad sounds better than mine.
Dougherty
I dont know about that, but I do know that projects are great ad-
ventures. The faint of heart need not apply.
Wright
Well I really appreciate all this time youve spent with me, Donna.
This is subject very, very interesting.
Today we have been talking with Donna Dougherty. She is an ex-
pert in the creation of collaborative project plans and mentoring
technical people as they survive the transition from solo contribu-
tors to collaborative PMs. As we have learned this afternoon, I
really think she knows what shes talking about. Thank you for being
with us on Masters of Success!
Dougherty
Thank you very much for this awesome opportunity. Its been my
pleasure.
Donna Dougherty
241
About Donna Dougherty
Donna Dougherty has an impressive record of helping organizations
execute projects more efficiently. She engagingly translates PMI-
based project management principles into realistic action plans. Shes
conducted over 700 workshops on project topics throughout the US,
Belgium, Soviet Union, Ireland and Scotland. She holds an MBA from
Fuqua Business School (Duke), and has served as an executive for a
Fortune 500 Firm. She is an expert in the creation of collaborative
project plans, and in mentoring technical people as they survive the
transition from technical contributors to project managers.

Donna Dougherty
2452 South Carbon Street
Allentown, PA 18103
Phone: 610.797.8071
Fax: 610.797.0249
Email: [email protected]


242

243
Chapter Eighteen
TERRI NORVELL
THE INTERVIEW
David E. Wright (Wright)
Today were talking with Terri Norvell. Terri is the creator of the
Inner PrizeA People Development Company, a training, consulting,
and coaching organization. The Inner Prize provides personal devel-
opment experiences which offer proof that expanded inner knowledge
equals greater outer results. Terri is a positive, motivational leader
who demonstrates whats possible when we trust in ourselves, believe
in our inner knowledge and take confident action. She has a unique
real-world approach and practical ideas that enable her to connect
with people from the front line to the corner office. Her methodologies
for personal effectiveness inspire action and notable results through-
out organizations from coast to coast.
Terri draws upon her experience as vice president of a $1.2 billion
property management and development firm, general manager for a
$9 million temporary housing company, and product management
with Frito-Lay, Anderson Clayton Foods, and Southland 7-Eleven
stores.
Masters of Success
244
She is committed to community service, serving as the youngest
president of the Mountain View Chamber of Commerce, along with
being a founding board member for the Housing Industry Foundation
and the Center for Performing Arts in the Bay Area, California.
Terri assists people in going beyond what they previously thought
possible, leaving her audiences profoundly changed. Participants gain
physical experiential proof that whatever they focus upon can be
achieved. Frequent comments include, You helped me see that I can
believe in myself Wow! I can do anything now! and, I experienced
a total shift in my attitude.
She is a featured presenter with business organizations and asso-
ciations across the country because she opens the minds of
participants to see new possibilities, overcome obstacles, and focus on
results. Additionally, Terri helps her audiences build their outer, or
tangible, or substantive results through her nationally recognized
Inner Knowledge e-Letter.
Terri, welcome to Masters of Success.
Terri Norvell (Norvell)
Thank you.
Wright
Let me start by asking, how does your intriguing company name,
The Inner Prize, tie into your success?
Norvell
Theres a direct correlation between the name The Inner Prize
and my definition of success. Let me start by defining what The Inner
Prize actually means. Its that special something we each have within
us. Its our inner vision, inner strength, inner trust, inner knowledge,
and inner drive that allows us to do more than we believe we can. The
inner prize is hugeits like the sun shining brightly within each of
us. Unfortunately, many people are experiencing cloud cover and
thats where I come in, to show how to get rid of the clouds and expose
their inner light.
It can be tough to get ones arms around this concept because its
the process of exploration that enables us to figure out how to access
and then attain our Inner Prize. Its like a series of muscles that must
be developed and that strengthen with use. Over all, its the qualities
and abilities that make each of us uniquely special and enable us to
be, do, and achieve whatever is important to us.
Terri Norvell
245
I arrived at this knowledge through my own life long questing, cu-
riosity, and discoveries about success. My life and the people around
me continue to be my primary exploration laboratory. People who in-
fluenced me greatly were my personal heroes, including my family
members, close friends, mentors, and teachers; they inspired me to be
my best.
In my questing, it often seemed that its the simple, everyday
things that can have the greatest impact on our lives. For a long time
I searched for answers to my pressing questions outside of myself
then I had a life-defining experience. I received a special gift from a
friend who gave me an Ah-Ha! moment. Yes, I found the meaning of
life on a T-shirt. It had a Socrates quote on it: Know Thyself. What I
saw in that T-shirt struck a deep inner knowing.
I finally got it! I discovered that the answers were totally within
me. I no longer needed to look outside of myself. I came to know that
how I choose to think and what I choose to do truly do determine my
view, not only of myself, but of the world around me. I realized even
then that this was a huge revelation. I realized that the Inner Prize
was both readily accessible, and was ready and waiting to guide me
along the journey of life.
That was the key. All I had to do was to turn inward, access this
inner knowledge, inner strength, inner trust, inner vision, inner
drive, and then utilize them to create results in my lifemy Inner
Prize.
Yet, tapping into it on a daily basis can be elusive. It requires nur-
turing, ongoing attention, and focus. This has always been my
motivating, driving force, and is what has made me successful. With
each transformational shift I experienced, I was driven to explore fur-
ther, document my results, and to share my findings with others so
that they too could have transformational shifts and grow into their
personal best. Developing methodologies helped me, and now others,
to access and utilize their Inner Prize on a regular basis.
I decided to have fun with this approach and investigated what
the Inner Prize meant to other business professionals. I asked this
question: How do you know if and when you tap into your Inner
Prize? People responded with such comments as:
I do my best and I know I do my best.
I discover an ability I doubted I had within me.
I make decisions with more confidence.
I see different possibilities rather than only one right way.
Masters of Success
246
I know whats most important and I let that guide my
choices.
I enjoy the process and not just the end result.
I feel peaceful and calm inside even when chaos is all
around me.
I thought, Wow! Isnt that terrific! When we are feeling at our
peak, when were feeling at the top of our game, when were tapping
into that inner uniquenessthat Inner Prize were poised to reach
our personal and professional goals. Big steps toward success!
Wright
Regarding success, do people want to be successful?
Norvell
Ive found that success can be defined in many ways, and is differ-
ent for each one of us. People want to do their best. When we are
doing our best, we achieve more and are more fulfilled. So yes, people
do want to be successful. Yet heres a catch: Obstacles and challenges
invariably come along.
When these obstacles and challenges do come, there are some peo-
ple who have learned to triumph over challenges rather than letting
challenges stop them. When we tap into our inner knowledge, we can
see our challenges from a different perspective and learn from them,
rather than feeling stuck or defeated. It takes us from a powerless
victim role, to being players in our lives. When we are players rather
than victims, success is more possible.
What I discovered on my Inner Prize research journey is that suc-
cess is revealed in multiple areas of our lives. Its not a prize that we
go after and claim once and for all. It took me quite a long time to
learn this. For example, I absolutely love to be creating, assisting and
achieving. I cannot imagine not working!
Prior to starting my firm I was vice president of a West Coast real
estate development and management firm, and the stakes were very
high. We held a leading market presence that required very long
hours. During that time I prided myself on the fact that I hadnt used
any vacation or sick time in almost three years.
By most peoples standards, I was a success. I worked hard; I got
results. I felt successful. And then I learned that there are other com-
ponents to success than just working hard. I learned that success is
much deeper than what society tells us.
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247
I now know that success can be experienced in four different areas:
mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Im at my best
when these four areas are in alignment. And, when we need to over-
come obstacles in the process of experiencing success, that feeling is
even more rewarding. Ill explain what I mean by the four ways.
First, mental success is determined by how we use our minds. Its
how we think and what we think that contributes to our mental well-
being and success. Oftentimes this is in the workplace, but it can also
be whenever we are engaged in some intention or goal. Mental suc-
cess comes from knowing that we have within usright now
everything that we need to be successful. Its about having confidence
in yourself. This includes knowing that if you dont have the immedi-
ate answers, you know how to get them.
I relate physical success to taking care of our health. Its so true
that when we dont have our health its tough for anything else to
matter. When were physically well, challenges are much more easily
handled. Just think of how a nagging headache shadows your think-
ing and creating. Physical endurance also goes a long way in
contributing to all success.
Then theres emotional success. This comes through building au-
thentic relationships. When we stop and think of those people who
are closest and dearest to us in our hearts, we need to ask if we actu-
ally give these people the time and care that they deserve. We have to
assess whether we give them as much attention as we give to some of
the other areas where we define success. Too often our emotional suc-
cess is given a back seat in importance.
Spiritual success is reflected through living true to our values and
ourselves. Some look at this as spiritual or religious beliefs. Defining
spiritual success often requires deep reflection. It takes a lot of inner
development to really clarify whats true for us. I know that Im more
successful when my daily actions reflect my core beliefs and what I
value. The result is greater joy in my life.
The bottom line is that each of us needs to define success for our-
selves. And in the process become what I call our own inner Action
Hero.
Wright
Action Hero? What does an Action Hero have to do with our per-
sonal or professional success?
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248
Norvell
We each have an Action Hero or She-ro within us! Everyone does.
Releasing the Action Hero within is a concept that I created to assist
people in seeing themselves in a more capable, self-trusting, and self-
reliant way. Theres a quote by Marianne Williamson that includes
the statement, We ask ourselves who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,
talented, and fabulous, when actually who are we not to be? I agree
and know that we each have a gorgeous, talented, and fabulous Ac-
tion Hero within.
Action Heroes, in contrast to Super Heroes, are simply regular
people who use their special talents, abilities, and techniques in their
own pursuits. Theyre ordinary, everyday people and can include im-
portant people in our lives, acquaintances, or perhaps people we see
from a distance. Most likely they are not widely known, yet we are
inspired by their actions, attitude, abilities, approach, or caring. Of-
ten we look up to them for some remarkable quality or achievement.
They inspire us and help us know whats possible. I think that can be
said for each of us. Who do you think of in your life as an Action
Hero? Who might look at you as one of his or her heroes?
When a person releases their inner Action Hero, they have taken
the time to go on their own journey of discovery and have found the
keythe key is access to their Inner Prize. Action Heroes achieve
mastery in their success because they have attained the prizethey
have gotten proof of just how powerful, talented, capable, strong, and
creative they really are. They have learned to trust in their beliefs
and instincts, trust in their knowledge and education, trust in other
people, and confidently take action. We are often inspired to emulate
them.
In my investigating I did an interesting exercise. I asked my ten-
year-old twins whom they saw as an Action Heroand what an Ac-
tion Hero meant to them. As most children would do, they listed their
mother and father. They also added Patrick Roy, who you might know
is the most successful hockey goalie of all time, and Mia Hamm, who
was already a soccer star at the age of fifteen.
When I asked them what qualities they thought of, they said (and
this is so intriguing to me), Strong, helpful, nice, generous, coura-
geous, willing, intelligent, intriguing, loving, and supportive, all
qualities that we each have within. I probed a little deeper and asked,
Why Patrick Roy? My son responded, Well, Mom, he inspires me to
be a better goalie. Isnt that what life is abouthelping inspire oth-
ers to be the best that we can be?
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249
I asked my daughter, why Mia Hamm? She said, Mom, she shows
me whats possible with focused work and dedication. Wow! Ten
years old and she knows this already! This shows how other people
can touch that deep desire within us to be our best, and can inspire us
to take action.
To release the Action Hero, we need five things:
An inner vision of where we want to go.
An inner trust that we have the resources already avail-
able.
An inner strength of focus and commitment to overcome
challenges.
An inner drive and determination to take action.
An inner knowing of whats most important along the
way.
Once that inner Action Hero is released we have more joy and suc-
cess throughout our life. When that Action Hero is released in the
workplace, we can begin to experience business ecstasy.
Wright
Tell me about business ecstasy. It sounds like an oxymoronI
mean, how many people experience ecstasy in business?
Norvell
I find that everyone either giggles or smiles at the concept of busi-
ness ecstasy. I think its the term ecstasy that does it because we
dont often associate work or business with the concept of ecstasy. We
know that ecstasy is intense joy or delight, and an inner feeling of
immense fulfillment. We know that personal ecstasy is experienced
when we feel really good about who we are and when were making
ourselves a priority. Business ecstasy is when we feel elated with who
we are and with what were doing or have done. Its being in the zone
and on top of our game. It can include exceeding expectations at
work, closing deals, forming new partnerships, and creating new op-
portunities. For me, its also expressed through laughing, smiling,
and feeling jovial or blissful (yes, while Im working!).
Lets take these personal ecstasy feelings and describe them in the
work environment. Ecstasy in the workplace translates to:
Im great at what I do and I love to do it.
Im passionate about the difference that Im making.
I trust and believe in my team.
Im appreciated and valued.
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250
My job isnt work but rather a purpose that I am fulfilling.
Business ecstasy is available to everyone. We spend too much time
working to not feel good about ourselves and our contributions, and to
not be having fun while we are at it. When we are experiencing busi-
ness ecstasy, its much easier for our Action Herothe best we have
to offerto be released.
I like to think that when Coco Chanel started her empire, Pierre
Omidyar started eBay, David Filo and Jerry Yang started Yahoo, and
Jeff Bezos started Amazon, they and their team members were ex-
periencing business ecstasy as they began as ordinary people,
creating something bigger than all of them combined. Many entre-
preneurs and intra-preneurs (entrepreneurs within an organization)
express passionate, euphoric feelings about their work. Imagine if
your work environment was just this exciting! It can be.
Wright
What is one technique someone can use as they move toward at-
taining success mastery and business ecstasy?
Norvell
A first step is to realize that we already possess a great variety of
resources within us. And the one resource with unlimited potential is
the power of our mind. Consider that the mind works around the
clock whether we are awake of asleep. It will focus wherever we place
our attention, and amazingly, it knows no difference between real and
pretend. Its like having our own personal self-directed, energy-
generating power plant in our heads. Its often said that we each have
50,000 thoughts going through our minds every day. Thats a lot of
energy. The distinguishing quality in our results is how we choose to
use this mind of ours!
The process of acquiring the mental agility to produce favorable
results and attract success goes by many names. Some call it mental
programming, affirmations, visualizations, pre-paving, aligning your
Reticular Activating System, positive thinking, personal power talk
or self-hypnosis. Whatever you choose to call it, the process involves
focusing on what you want, rather than on what you dont want.
Its interesting that professionals in the field of athletics have
tapped into this resource much more fully than many other fields or
industries. I read a quote by a sports psychologist predicting that,
Our professional athletes of today have reached the limit in their
Terri Norvell
251
physical capacity to excel. The next level will be reached through tap-
ping into and using the power of the mind.
I find this fascinating. He went on to give an example of a basket-
ball team. It went like this: Two teams were given the goal of making
the most perfect baskets at the end of six weeks. Now, heres the
catch: Team One practiced on the court, and physically handled the
ball. Team Two sat in chairs along the side and never touched a bas-
ketball. They physically visualized making perfect baskets in their
minds. The results are astoundingthe team that mentally practiced
made measurably more perfect baskets.
Heres another example: Amy Van Dyken is a Coloradoan who won
six Olympic gold medals in swimming. Prior to that experience she
attended Arizona State University where she became so discouraged
that she quit swimming and returned to Colorado to attend Colorado
State University. Within one year she set a world record in the fifteen
meter free-stylea very impressive turnaround. When asked how she
could achieve this feat, she replied, Before, I had a great coach and I
worked on my stroke and kickingthe technical aspects of swim-
ming. Yet at CSU, they gave me a sports psychologist. What I learned
is that at this level its more mental than physical. An athlete doesnt
train for a world record the night before. Athletes train for it mentally
as well as physically every single day. They achieve business ecstasy
through visualizing success, positive self-talk, and having the expec-
tation of being at their best.
I recently watched a movie that gave behind-the-scenes informa-
tion and history about the Blue Angelsthe Navys air show team.
Since I have seen and heard the Blue Angels many times in their F/A-
18 Hornet fighter planes (they are amazingly loud), I was fascinated
by their training regimen. Their flying acumen is breath-taking and
awe-inspiring. Clearly they are releasing their Action Heroes at the
highest risk-taking level and experiencing true business ecstasy, as
they define it! Whats interesting is that before each show all of the
Blue Angels sit in a conference room and listen to the Boss Man
the man in the Number One flight position. The Boss Man verbally
talks them through each maneuver as they visualize every stunt in
the show as they fly within thirty-six inches of each other going hun-
dreds of miles per hour. Using the mind to produce desired results
and success is a powerful and life-critical technique for them.
In my seminars I often ask attendees if they use visualizations or
affirmationswhat I call Personal Power Talk. Some hands enthu-
siastically go up. Yet, when I ask how many people worry, many more
Masters of Success
252
hands go up. Worry places our attention on what we dont want, and
takes our attention off of what we do want. Using our mind to focus
on achieving whats important to us is a powerful, success-building
way of living.
When people begin to use these techniques it requires self-trust
and belief. They need to trust themselves enough to try something
new and believe in whats possible with focus and desire.
Wright
Why is self-trust so critical to success?
Norvell
I have found that trust in oneself is really the foundation of life
that trust gives us the confidence to use our knowledge and take con-
fident action both personally and professionally.
When I became interested in what trust really is and what it
means in my work, I took on a one-year research project about trust.
In my exploration I discovered that there really are five different
categories of trust and that we utilize these various categories at dif-
ferent times and for different projects. The five categories have to do
with trusting: a higher power, our instincts and intuition, our experi-
ence, our education or training, and finally, trusting other people in
our lives.
At the same time I determined that its self-doubt that keeps us
from trusting. Doubt keeps us from trusting ourselvesand from
trusting others. That mental swirl of doubt can be agonizing when we
dont trust that we have what it takes and that we know what to do.
In my investigation, I asked dozens of people do you trust your-
self and how do you know? Across the board, most everyone
mentioned trusting their instincts, or their gut-feel, as a way of know-
ing the best course of action. They use this as a barometer or
indicator in determining their chosen actions. They had learned to
trust their inner knowing to determine what is right for them, rather
than what others might say or think.
A friend of mine is a director of a multi-million dollar division of a
high-tech organization. She shared that, I do trust myself and my
intuition on business issues and with people, yet it has taken me a
while to truly trust myself. What has made the difference is to reflect
on how many times I am right about something...before others can
see it. I call that gaining proof.
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253
Last year she went against her intuition and took a risk on con-
tinuing an R&D program that she felt was not going to produce. Two
months later she cancelled it. Had she trusted her instincts, she
would have gotten a different program started two months earlier,
would have disappointed fewer customers, and wasted less time and
money. What great proof that her self-trust is on target. Sometimes
miss-takes are even better trust motivators than a being right
track record.
There are so many examples of people overcoming tough obstacles
by trusting what is the best course of action for them. Think of Lance
Armstrong. Doctors told him that he was crazy to even think about
being on a bike again, that his attention ought to be placed on fight-
ing his cancer and fighting for his life. Yet, he listened to his
instincts. His seventh Tour de France win certainly provides proof
that the inner Action Hero was more than ready to be released!
Oprah is another great example. Coming from her challenging up-
bringing, she followed her heart and profoundly listened to the voice
within that let her know what she was capable of achieving. Self
trust, absolutely.
When we learn to trust in ourselves and our abilities, anything is
attainable. Its as if miracles happen right before us. How is this pos-
sible you might ask? Because with trust, it becomes much easier to
break through whatever obstacles or doubts might come along.
Wright
Lets talk about breakthroughs. How do people have a break-
through experience?
Norvell
Breakthroughs can occur whenever we overcome a challenge, a
limiting belief or an obstacle of some sort. Obstacles sure can look like
rocks or boulders on our path in life and yet too often we let the ob-
stacles stop us or impede our progress. With an open-minded
perspective, we can use those rocks as stepping-stones to move us to-
ward achieving a project or a goal or something that is important to
us.
Many times fear is one of the greatest obstacles a person can have.
Often it is a fear of change, or taking a risk, or failure of some sort. In
my Break Through Your Challenges sessions, participants learn a
technique for conquering a fear or an obstacle that is holding them
back. Everyone has an opportunity to write a challenge or concern on
Masters of Success
254
a twelve-by-twelve-inch wooden board and to break that board with
their bare hand. The board is actually a metaphor for whatever ob-
stacle is stopping or keeping them from feeling success in their
personal or professional endeavors.
These breakthrough experiences are powerful. Imagine focusing
every ounce of energy you have on the task in front of youmustering
up all your physical strength from the tips of your toes through every
muscle in your being, focusing your total mental concentration on go-
ing beyond the board, aligning your breathing, affirming desire,
knowing beyond a shadow of doubt that nothing can stop you...and
then that quick strike, that release of all your energy in one strike as
you experience that point of power when your hand goes through that
board.
When you are totally aligned with every part of youyour hand
goes through with sublime ease. Then the euphoric adrenalin rush
permeates as you realize what you just did! Your confidence and trust
in yourself are overwhelming. You have proof of just how powerful
you really are when you focus on whats important to you. Thats
when people say and feel things like, Wow! I can do anything!
Physically putting your hand through that board results in so
many mental breakthroughs. The results are nothing short of as-
tounding. Here are a few examples of what people have overcome:
A woman in property management broke through her fear
of elevators; in that breakthrough moment she had a
mental flash of what had caused this fear. Once she un-
derstood the cause, she was able to release its power over
her.
In that breakthrough moment another participant discov-
ered just how powerful she really is and has parlayed that
confidence into her daily work. She used to hold back on
sharing her opinions, thinking that what others had to
say was more important. Now she speaks up freely in
meetings and with clients. The results include better rela-
tionships, additional sales, and feeling more successful.
A maintenance supervisor found the courage to take the
plunge to buy rental properties (three within the month
following his breakthrough experience) and begin his own
real estate portfolio.
Another wanted to find a job closer to her family who was
an ocean away. In that breakthrough moment she found
the inner strength to look for a position back in her home
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255
state of Hawaii and landed an absolutely incredible man-
agement opportunity.
One of my all-time favorite letters was from a woman who
wanted to be an awesome mom and incredible wife. She
said, My breakthroughs are amazing both personally and
professionally. First let me start with a personal one. I
have become a great motherwe now splash in puddles
after a rainstorm, I supply the picnic lunches for the
neighborhood kids in the park across the street, and my
childrens friends ask to be invited to dinner because we
talk about whats important in their lives. In the wife
category, all I can say is look at the glow on our faces! I
am now his best friend, fishing buddy, confidant, and
business advisor. I broke through the traditional wife
syndrome. I have changed our familys lives forever.
In my seminars we break boards, we break arrows, we bend
spoonsall to gain tangible evidence, to gain physical proof that we
can do something that only minutes ago seemed unattainable. When
you can break through a piece of wood with easeit opens your mind
up to whats holding you back and whats possible. You begin to imag-
ine what other successes are now within the realm of possibility for
you.
This goes back to focus and the power of our mind. Sometimes it
takes something dramatic to demonstrate and prove to us that we
have that Inner Prize withinthat our Action Heroes are ready to be
released.
Wright
What are the advantages of mastering success through the Inner
Prize methodology?
Norvell
The Inner Prize methodology builds on the belief that all success,
achievement, joy, and inspiration starts from within. Another core
belief is that there are greater resources within us than we are cur-
rently using, and that once we access this inner knowledge, we are
able to achieve greater outer results in all areas of our lives.
Access is the key in this process. And the prize is attainment
attainment of your inner vision, inner trust, inner knowing, inner
strength, and inner drive and determination.
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256
Action Heroes have found this key to attain and then use their
unique Inner Prize. Action Heroes trust in themselves and we see this
as confidence in what they say and what they do. We admire these
Action Heroes because they inspire us. They inspire us by their ac-
complishments or contributions and enable us to see whats possible.
They show us their best and inspire us to be our best.
There is a process we go through to get from questing to having
that mastery of success. It takes more than hearing, agreeing, believ-
ing, and understanding the components of success. While these steps
are important, it takes living them and integrating each small step
into our daily lives. With each step we come closer to achieving the
goals weve set for ourselves. This enables us to create new behaviors,
new ways of interacting, and new results throughout our lives.
Another important component is reinforcement. Whenever we are
incorporating new ideas or making a change, we need encouraging
reminders as to whats important to us, what we want to do, who we
want to be and what we want to achieve. Why? Because thats what
helps us to overcome the inevitable obstacles and distractions were
bound to encounter.
When we each learn to tie all of these components together, the
results are tangible, lasting, and contagious. Those who have ac-
cessed their Inner Prize are easier to spot. These characteristics are
consistent:
They know whats most important and set priorities ac-
cordingly.
They live by their values and have a high level of integ-
rity.
They form authentic relationships with others.
They want to continually learntheyre not afraid to ask
for assistance or feedback.
They dont let challenges paralyze them or keep them
stuck.
They ask targeted questions, then stop, pay attention, and
listen to answers.
They understand that business is personal, but they dont
take it personally.
The results of living this wayof accessing your Inner Prizeare
amazing and life fulfilling. This is my passion and mission: To assist
people and organizations to trust themselves and tap into their Inner
Prize. It often takes gaining proof of just how powerful we each are to
thrive with change, and create the lives and careers of our dreams.
Terri Norvell
257

Ill close with one of my favorite quotes from Emerson:
What lies behind us
And what lies before us
Are small matters compared to
What lies within us.
Wright
What an interesting conversation! Today weve been talking with
Terri Norvell who is the creator of the Inner Prize training, consult-
ing, and coaching organization. They help companies tap into their
true power sourcetheir people, because the power in business starts
with the power in people.
Terri, thank you so much for being with us today on Masters of
Success.
Norvell
Thank you. Live and work inspired!





Masters of Success
258
About Terri Norvell
Terri Norvell provides a refreshing blend of life wisdom, business
acumen, and expanding human potential to her clients nationwide.
She brings twenty years of valuable real-world business experience
and practical content to the podium and classroom through her
speaking, training, coaching, and consulting. Participants leave her
sessions energized and prepared to tackle the most demanding chal-
lenges with a keen focus on results. She is a highly respected
contributor to many companies and associations including the Sales
& Marketing Magic Companies, Prometheus, United Advertising/For
Rent, Irvine Apartment Management Company, OMNI, Greystar,
National Apartment Association, Society of Human Resource Man-
agement and RentNet.com. Her messages inspire people to thrive
with change.

Terri Norvell
The Inner Prize
A People Development Company
11780 Perry Street
Westminster, CO 80031
Phone: 303-439-0077
Fax: 303-439-2466
Email: [email protected]
www.theinnerprize.com




259
Chapter Nineteen
JIM SMITH, JR.
THE INTERVIEW
David Wright (Wright)
Raised and coached by his mother, Nanci Gray, and educated in
the Philadelphia public school system, neighborhood streets and ball
fields, Jim Smith, Jr. personifies energy and passion. His speaking,
facilitation and training style evolved from his ups and downs in life,
corporate America, academia, college and professional sports, parent-
ing and marriage.
Presently residing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Jims speaking
engagements and workshops have taken him to both national and
international audiences and for groups of all sizes. He is the president
and CEO of Jimpact Enterprises (professional trainer development,
leadership, diversity, and motivational speaking). Jim is also the au-
thor of From Average to Awesome: 41 Plus Gifts in 41 Plus Years. A
member of the 1981 Widener University National Championship
football team and an All Conference player, Jim was the first in his
family to earn a college degree, receiving his Bachelor of Arts degree
in English from Widener University (Chester, Pennsylvania), and his
Masters degree in Journalism from Temple University (Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania).
Masters of Success
260
He belongs to the American Society for Training and Development
(ASTD), the National Speakers Association (NSA), national and Mid
Atlantic Chapters. In addition, he has been an adjunct faculty mem-
ber for Penn State University (Great Valley) and Rosemont College.
Hes worked with organizations like HBO, ADP (Dealer Services),
Johnson and Johnson, Merck, Harvard University, MetLife, Abbotts
Labs, Wilsons Leather, Astra Zeneca and The Melting Pot Restau-
rants.
Jim, welcome to Masters of Success.
Jim Smith, Jr. (Smith, Jr.)
Thank you.
Wright
Why the nickname Mr. Energy?

Smith, Jr.
The nickname Mr. Energy captures and personifies who I am
professionally and personally. It depicts my drive, my spirit, and es-
sentially how I go after life. The people who attend my workshops,
trainings, and keynotes could attest to that. Not only do they feel my
energy but they also feel the energetic environment that I create in
the room. Its electric! They generally leave the sessions as exhausted
as I do. One of my major goals during my sessions is to model, use,
and share tips, techniques, metaphors, stories, and illustrations that
create an energy level where people want to learn, experiment, play,
and are anxious to use whats being taught when they leave the room.
Wright
I have heard of your keynote speeches. Could you tell our readers
about the fear factor and about the layaway plan you discuss?
Smith, Jr.
The fear factor is that factor or obstacle we create (and strongly
believe) that gets in the way of our pursuing our greatness, pursuing
our dreams, and pursuing those things we really desire. The acronym
for fear is:
False
Expectations
Appearing
Real
Jim Smith, Jr.
261
We create the fear factor monster. We create the hurdles and pot-
holes. We create the reasons for our settling for second. Some may
call these self-limiting beliefs. We play to keep the score close and our
fear factors paralyze us.
I love Les Browns quote, But is an argument for your limita-
tions and when you argue for your limitations you get to keep them.
Our fear factors help us to argue for our limitations, and we learn to
argue well.
The layaway plan could be either positive or negative but in most
cases its the latter. Your typical layaway plan transaction involves
someone putting down money on an item as an initial deposit, and
then returning to the store periodically to make small payments until
the total balance is paid off within the designated timeframe. The
deposit, which is made in good faith, is needed to hold the item be-
cause the shopper generally does not have the required amount of
money at that point. Unfortunately, in some cases, people stop paying
on their item over time and its put back on the shelf.
In life many of us put our dreams and goals on layaway. We make
an initial deposit on the goal by making a mental note, writing it
down, or by sharing it with others. We then periodically revisit that
goal by making additional attempts to get closer to making it become
a reality. Nevertheless, if our efforts are not consistent (i.e., if our
payments are not regular), we generally lose out and lose sight, and
our dreams and goals go back on the shelf with our other unfulfilled
aspirations.
Now depending on how significant the goal is, some people use the
layaway plan as a measured, strategic, and consistent approach to
obtain what they want. I just wish those people outnumbered the
myriad people who never pay off their layaways. I exhort and chal-
lenge people to take their goals and dreams off layaway. Also,
consider this, we typically begin the whole layaway process by mak-
ing it challenging. How? We usually put down the minimum amount
(of money) that we can to get the store to hold it. If we put in the least
amount of effort and planning into our goals or dreams at the outset
then were certainly getting off on the wrong foot. Successful people
purposefully and intentionally go after their goals even if it means
occasionally putting some of them on layaway.
Wright
You tell people to get out of their own way and to get the junk
out of their trunk. Whats that about?
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Smith, Jr.
To get out of your own way means simply to immediately stop
talking yourself out of opportunities. It means to stop creating moun-
tains of negative karma. It means to stop being your own firing
squad. Two quotes come to my mind when I consider how people be-
come their own personal roadblocks: If you think you can or think
you cant youre right, by Henry Ford, and, The greatest conversa-
tion you can have is the conversation you have with yourself and the
greatest belief you can have is the belief you have in yourself. With
that in mind, during my sessions I emphatically stress to people, Get
out of your own wayyoull keep getting what youre getting as long
as you keep doing what youre doing!
With regard to the junk in ones trunk I believe we metaphorically
carry tons of luggage and baggage around with us throughout our life.
In our baggage are resentment, insecurity, jealousy, rage, bitterness,
divorce, separation, hypocrisy, control, fear, bad habits, and the like.
We seldom realize the toll baggage takes on our mindset, outlook, and
well being. Its toxic, disintegrating our self-esteem every day. To suc-
cessfully move through the world we have to rid ourselves of our junk.
The first step is to acknowledge that you have itto own your
stuff. Once thats accomplished you can seek help. There are plenty of
self-help books, seminars, and the like, that speak to baggage discard-
ing. Trust meI knowIm still emptying my trunk every day.
Wright
Your speaking and training style is both creative and empowering.
Where does it come from?
Smith, Jr.
I have experienced an awful lot in my life and to me it has all con-
tributed to what I bring to my presentations. At times during my life
I have thrived and there have been other times when I have barely
survived. Nevertheless, everything that has happened to me has
played a critical role in who I am as a person, a father, a brother, a
son, an author, a leader, a consultant, a speaker, and a trainer.
David, from being raised in a black, single-parent household, to at-
tending schools that were either predominantly all white or all black,
to my highs and lows in academics and athletics (high school, college,
and professional), to broken promises, to silly corporate America
games, to failed relationships, to routinely dealing with a number of
isms (i.e., classism, racism, nepotism, etc.), I have developed an em-
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powering, put it all out there style. Im not afraid to make a mis-
take. I truly love what I do. People really feel me and feel my words.
Im all liveno Memorex here. Plus, Ive always been somewhat of a
ham and that helps.
With regard to my creative style, that stems primarily from my
background in English and Journalism. My undergrad degree is in
English and my masters degree is in Journalism. I create pictures
with my words. My illustrations are rich in diversity. I want to give
the learners ears eyes. Since a great majority of us are visual learn-
ers, I want to create pictures that you will marinate in today and
tomorrow. I creatively move you from your head to your heart. Some
would say that journey is the longest fifteen inches in the world. I
appeal to left-brainers and right-brainers, kinesthetic learners and
auditory learnerseverybody.
I sincerely believe in the theories that suggest just because I
taught it doesnt mean you caught it, and, just because it was said
doesnt mean that it made it to your head. I have no fear in front of
audiences. I view my learners as the most important people in the
room and its my goal to ensure that they leave with more than they
come with. That means moving away from solely didactic, theoretical
approaches to facilitation and speaking. I speak to express not im-
press. I want my learners to leave empowered, confident,
knowledgeable, and inspired.
Wright
What would you say has been the biggest contributor to your pro-
fessional success?
Smith, Jr.
I would say that several things have greatly contributed to my
success. One significant contributor has been my mother who taught
me to always step upto overachieve. Because of her I attended kin-
dergarten through twelfth grade without missing a day of school. Just
watching her raise my brother and me, excel in her job, travel to all
parts of the world, get her bachelors degree after we both obtained
our masters degrees and assume a leadership role in every situation
she was a part of was the role modeling I needed.
Number two, I guess, is my risk-taker mentality. Im not afraid to
lose. Im also not afraid to do what it takes to win. I can remember
always being that way. Even in grade school I was always the dare-
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264
devilI always wanted to go firstI always wanted to set the stan-
dard and to get noticed.
Next Id say is the number of Titans Ive had in my life. Titans
are people who always have your back. They are mentors and
coaches, friends and colleagues, relatives, and teachers who always
want to see you excel. I talk about them at length in my book From
Average to Awesome: 41 Plus Gifts in 41 Plus Years. I believe you
have Titans and Titanics in life. Knowingly or unknowingly, con-
sciously or unconsciously, Titanics try to sink you and your dreams.
We should always remember our Titans. They remind you to give
and to persevere. My Titans have always been a diverse group too.
Aside from my mother and other relatives, Ive experienced a huge
amount of diversity in my life. The schools I attended contributed to
that. Because my parents were divorced when I was young I always
attached myself to the male leaders in my life. This included my little
league and high school coaches, teachers, and college professors,
many of whom were not black. They played a significant role in de-
veloping my spirit, my passion for excellence, and my vision.
Finally, Id say that I dont know any other wayI dont know how
to settle for secondmy eye is always on the prize.
Wright
Your personal Mt. Rushmore includes your mom, Mr. Sam (your
little league baseball coach), Mrs. Brodie, and Kathy Cook. Could you
tell our readers more about them and perhaps your other Titans?
Smith, Jr.
When I think of Mt. Rushmore I think of the people who have
paved the way for our country and society. When I think of my per-
sonal Mt. Rushmore I think of the people who have paved the way for
me. There are several but the top four include my mother, Nanci
Smith, Mr. Sam, Mrs. Brodie, and Kathy Cook.
I mentioned my mom previously. She has always been filled with
lessons, advice, tough love, and endless support. I call her my pulse.
Mr. Sam was my first little league baseball coach. Imagine Lou
Gossetts character in An Officer and a Gentleman coaching age ten
through sixteen youththat was Mr. Sam. He was drill sergeant
tough, extremely detailed, and very consistent. He used to always
say, Tuck that shirt in young man. Turn that hat around straight!
What also made Mr. Sam important to me was his constant push
for us to give more than we thought we had. He would yell from the
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265
bench, Fire hard kid! That was our cheer to take our effort to the
next gear. No other coach, for the rest of my playing days, ever had to
push me to give my all. Mr. Sam conditioned me so thoroughly in that
mentality that I go after life with that same drive and spiritI al-
ways fire hard! Mr. Sam also taught us how to win, evidenced by
the number of little league championship trophies we won. Where
have all of the Mr. Sams gone these days?
Mrs. Brodie was my twelfth grade English teacher. She was, in
fact, the reason why I pursued English and Journalism in college. She
was another no-nonsense individual. You had to really study, com-
plete all of your homework and be at your best to get at least a B in
her class. Many seniors did not graduate on time because they took
Mrs. Brodie lightly. She really spent quality time with her students
coaching us and challenging us to develop an appreciation for poetry,
prose, grammar, and essentially how to write. When I was in her
class I believe she was in her late 60s but she never missed a beat
and never missed a day of school. By the way, she mentioned to us
that she was basketball great Wilt Chamberlains English teacher
when he was in high school. Im blessed and grateful that I was in
Mrs. Brodies class.
Kathy Cook was my manager at one of my corporate jobs. She was
a lot like my other Mt. Rushmore personalitiestough love and sup-
port. I reported in to her for three years and she taught me more
about being a professional in those three years than I had learned in
all my other years combined. Kathy was always three steps ahead of
everyone else. She coached me on how to be strategic, how to read
between the corporate lines, how to position myself for success, and
how to avoid taking on bad business. She was huge on development
and feedback and wanted to see all of her people stretch and excel.
My Mt. Rushmore members and Titans continue to make deposits
into my professional and personal life bank account. Theyre ex-
tremely special and giving people, and I share with others what they
have shared with me.
Wright
I have read that your favorite quote is from former baseball great
Satchel Paige who once said that we should, Love like weve never
been hurt, work like we dont need the money, dream like well live
forever, and dance like nobodys watching. Why is that?
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266
Smith, Jr.
To dance like nobodys watching is so freeing. To get to a place in
your life where somebodys opinion of you does not become your real-
ity is so liberating. We are so consumed with what everyone else
thinks or feels about us. Theres a certain peace that comes with the
ability to do your own thing. I believe thats what Satchel Paige was
referring to. He wasnt talking about being a rebel or anti-
establishment. He was talking about being so supremely confident in
your ability and talents that youre not going to be knocked to your
knees by dissenting opinions and viewsyoure not going to crumble
from criticism.
Youre not going to do it that way because thats the way its al-
ways been done. This means creatively taking different steps, making
steeper strides, acquiring special resources, going the extra mile, and
doing whatever (of course ethically and legally) it takes to be success-
ful. And by doing this youre going to separate yourself from the many
others who let systems, traditions, politics, cultures, and social mores
drive their every move.
A vivid illustration for this type of dancingor livingcan be
found in the person at the wedding reception who is always the first
to move to the dance floor. Upon hearing the music play, he/she gets
up and starts to get his/her groove on. This person doesnt care whos
looking, leering, or laughingthe sole purpose is to have a wonderful
time. I believe Satchel was suggesting that we should go after our
dreams and goals in the same way. I have to have fun in whatever I
do. My audiences appreciate it.
Wright
Tell me, how did you get into speaking and training?
Smith, Jr.
You know, David, I stumbled into it. My first dream was to play
professional football then write for Sports Illustrated. I then wanted
to move into sports broadcasting and eventually work at my old high
school as an English teacher and football and basketball coach. For
myriad reasons, things did not pan out that way. For example, after
college I got cut in my attempts to play pro football. I worked as a
stringer for a couple of local Philadelphia area newspapers and after
working briefly as a substitute teacher, I pursued a career in the cor-
porate world.
Jim Smith, Jr.
267
Actually, my first official public speaking responsibilities came
when I was President of my colleges Black Student Union during my
junior and senior years. Next, I made concept presentations when I
was part of the marketing department at Prudential in what was my
first real job after graduating from college. While at Prudential I next
took a position in the Human Resources Department as a trainer.
Since that time I have never looked back. I moved from a trainer to a
training manager, to a training and organization development con-
sultant, to eventually being vice president at the various companies I
worked for.
People have always told me that when I speak to them I make
them feel as though they are the most important person in the world
at that moment. I was told that I really connect with people and I
continued to receive that same feedback while working in corporate
America for fourteen years. Because of that feedback and the success
I experienced helping people to change their lives by pursuing their
goals with vigor and zeal, I decided to make speaking and training
my career. I love to give and to serve. I believe that I am a bridge to
helping you reach your dreams.
Surprisingly, I still get nervous before I go on, but Im doing what
I love. Now as a business owner, I work with other trainers, speakers,
and professionals to get them to raise their speaking and training
bars. I couldnt imagine doing anything else.
Wright
You discuss challenges that minorities face in the corporate world.
What are they and what advice do you provide?
Smith, Jr.
David, minorities face many of the same challenges that majority
members face and many that are unique to them or that have a dif-
ferent impact. Some of the challenges are self-imposed and others are
institutional.
If we took a look at our society we could clearly see that minority
group members are not equally represented in top decision-making
positions in most organizations. To that end the number of minority
executive role models are limited. Theres a certain level of confidence
that comes from watching someone who looks like you and who per-
forms like you in a position of power. Also, I dont believe that some
minorities enter the workforce as prepared as we can be. I believe
colleges could do more in the way of teaching business etiquette,
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268
business behavior, performance management, corporate politics, and
self-development. Ive seen where the best and the brightest minori-
ties have not always been fairly rewarded and developed.
Minorities also face challenges when inappropriate behaviors, as-
sumptions, stereotypes, and practices are at play and the contributors
are not held accountable. In my role as a diversity consultant I facili-
tate a number of focus group meetings where minority professionals
share a lot of the same unfortunate sentiments. They highlight the
lack of consistent mentoring, information exchange, development,
feedback, and support. Many have mentioned, however, that it makes
them want to work harder to become the first or move on to work for
an organization where they feel included and empowered.
As far as coaching is concerned I teach what Ive been taughtto
always take care of business and to fire hard in the meantime. That
means always being on time, being purposeful, always completing
assignments in a timely fashion, becoming a needed resource and
team player, and always adhering to the organizations core values.
I explain that we cant spend time complaining and whining about
what we feel is happening or not happening for us. We have to get
additional training, education, and certifications. We have to learn
the rulesthose that are written and those that are unwritten. I tell
them that we have to become invaluable, build relationships, become
a subject matter expert, and become the best at our position. I tell
them to listen for whats said and for whats not said. I tell them to
learn from these experiences so that they can coach others. I tell them
about the importance of image and exposure. I also tell them that by
doing all of these things their behavior can help change the inequities
(albeit some of them are very micro or clandestine) and organization
traditions that are in place.
I tell them to not always consider race as the reason for their di-
lemmas. Sometimes race may be the problem but sometimes its not. I
encourage them to do some discovery work, to do some self-
examination, and to elicit the support of their coaches and Titans. I
also tell them to build a team of diverse mentors and Titans. I also
tell them it may eventually mean having to move on. I believe that
there is always someone or some organization that has a place for a
talented individual.
Wright
You always encourage your audiences to break through to awe-
some. What is awesome?
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269
Smith, Jr.
Awesome is a state of mindits a belief. Its not a title or a posi-
tion. Its not an income level. Its one persons belief that he/she can
be anything he/she so chooses to be. Awesome is a mental, physical,
and spiritual place that one achieves.
Awesome people dont see obstacles; they see opportunities. They
dont see potholes; they see possibilities. They dont see dilemmas;
they see developments. To break through to awesome means to break
through to no limitations thinking. You begin to believe that what-
ever you put your mind, your energy, and your spirit to you can
accomplish. It means no more pity parties, victim vocabulary, or or-
dering from the whine list of life. It means no more playing to keep
the score close or settling for second place. It means being resource-
ful, positive, intuitive, and resilient. Its personal accountability,
personal responsibility, and personal empowerment rolled into one.
Wright
One of your keynotes is called Bringing Out the Best. What do
you discuss during that motivational talk or workshop?
Smith, Jr.
I typically talk about three things people can do to bring out the
best in themselves, their customers, and their peers:
1. Be resilient
2. Be responsible
3. Be remarkable
There are so many additional factors associated with these three
Rs but they are at the root (another R) for your being able to bring
out the best in everyone you are associated with.
Heres an example: I was having dinner with a client not too long
ago and our service was extremely slow. I motioned for the hostess to
come over. I wanted to tell her about our sub-standard service in
hopes that she would do something about it. After I explained every-
thing to her she said they she couldnt helpthat she was just a
hostess. I was extremely disappointed. It drives me nuts when peo-
ple say, Im just a She could have said, Let me look into it, Ill see
what I can do. No. She wasnt interested in bringing out our best.
She failed on all three Rs. She did not take responsibility to resolve
the situation. Her level of customer service or service recovery was
not remarkable. Resilient? No way, she just sneered at me when we
left. Why? I was finally able to get the restaurant manager to come
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270
over to our table and I shared with her the two examples of poor cus-
tomer service we had just experienced. I trust that her manager gave
her some well-needed and poignant feedback.
Bringing out the best includes getting people to see and appreciate
their genius. Its getting people to believe that they are more than a
title or a description. Its getting people to value who they are. Its
getting people to reinvent themselves. We have tons of opportunities
to do this every day with our family, friends, coworkers, and custom-
ers. I encourage people to do more!
Wright
You talk about a lot of heavyweight subjectsmindsets, account-
ability, commitment, and results. Why do you think these factors are
so important?
Smith, Jr.
I think they are important because to many people they are just
words. I would like for them to become a way of life. We live and work
in a society where people simply do not follow throughthey dont
even return your call when they say they will. I tell my learners to
look in the mirror. I tell them to tell themselves that going forward,
Im going to mean what I say and say what I mean.
Our mindset is huge! Our mindset generally determines our be-
liefs and our behaviors. Our behaviors generally determine the
results we get. So in essence, our mindset determines our results. To
that end we get who we are and what we think. So we have to be
committed and accountable.
My mother used to always tell me to wake up, get up, show up,
and step up. I tell my learners to do the same. I want them to be
honest and to be responsible to themselves and to others. Their re-
sults will be phenomenal.
Wright
What a great conversation Jim. I really appreciate the time you
have spent with me here today. I have learned a lot.
Smith, Jr.
Thank you!
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271
Wright
I might even start changing, who knows? I told someone this
morning in a staff meeting that it has taken me sixty years to get as
screwed up as I am today. I can start unscrewing.
Smith, Jr.
David, the older I get, the smarter my mother and the older folks
in my life get. When Im around them Im just a spongeI just listen.
You know, when I was younger I used to think I knew everything.
Thats not the case anymore. A lot of what I talk about is basicits
fundamental. Now, I do it very creatively and humorously, but Im
highlighting common thoughts that are not, unfortunately, common
practices.
I tell people that Im no one special. Im just Jim Smith, Jr. Im
Nanci Smiths oldest son and Rodney Smiths older brother. A phe-
nomenal woman who saw to it that I received an education and
developed a passion for excellence and a giving spirit raised me. As a
result, my goal is to help people break through to awesomeawesome
trainers, awesome leaders, awesome parents, awesome friends, and
awesome people. If I can do it anyone can.
Wright
Today we have been talking with Jim Smith, Jr., the President
and CEO of JIMPACT Enterprises, Inc. He is one of the most spirited
speakers and trainers to come along in a lot of years and we have
seen today he has tons of tips, keys, and power points to help us im-
prove in the areas of leadership, training and development, diversity
and personal empowerment. Jim, thank you so much for being with
us today.
Smith, Jr.
Thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to connecting again
with you real soon!
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272
About Jim Smith, Jr.
President and CEO of JIMPACT Enterprises Inc., Jim consults, writes,
speaks and facilitates in the areas of motivation/inspiration, diversity, train-
ing trainers, leadership, professional and personal development. Previously,
Jim was a Consultant for Simmons Associates (Leadership and Diversity
Management) and a Performance Solutions Consultant for The Bob Pike
Group where he consulted and trained in the areas of performance improve-
ment, participant centered training techniques, motivation, high impact
business presentations and customer service. Jim has also worked in a lead-
ership capacity for Core States Bank (Vice President, Business Learning
Resources), the Vanguard Group (Management and Organization Develop-
ment Consultant), and the Prudential AARP Operations (Associate Manager,
Training and Development). While at Vanguard, Jim received the organiza-
tions Award for Excellence, an award that recognizes outstanding
contributions, professionalism and service. At Prudential he received the Mi-
nority Interchange, Inc. Constance O. Garretson Award for devoted and
valuable service. INROADS/Philadelphia Inc. awarded Jim its Frank C. Carr
Community Service Award in 1995. Jim is currently working on his next
book, Crash and Learn: Stuff Trainers Do in the Classroom that Make Par-
ticipants want to Shout, Sleep or Sneak Out!

JIMPACT Enterprises, Inc.
1530 Locust Street, #161
Philadelphia, PA 19102
Phone: 856.778.4778
Fax: 610.622.4488
www.jimpact.com