Unstoppable Condence

with Michael Griswald

A Secret Survey Bonus
By Michael Fiore
Copyright 2012 c by Michael Fiore and Digital Romance, Inc. All
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Unstoppable Condence
with Michael Griswald
vicnAcL riouc: Hi this is Michael Fiore, and I want to welcome you
to this very special interview I am doing with my good friend,
one of the smartest guys I know around relationships, also a
Michael, Michael Griswold. Michael, say hello.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Hey, thanks for having me, Michael.
vicnAcL riouc: No problem. So yeah, well be going back and forth
and saying Michael and Michael a lot on this call, so please
bear with us as far as this goes. I rst met Michael Gris-
wold several years ago when I was at a seminar, I believe in
Washington D.C., and was really struck at the time about his
depth of understanding of women and relationships and how
women can approach relationships in a really powerful way.
How a woman can have better relationships. Michael himself
has a program called The M3 System, which is built around
helping men and women who have lost the man or woman
they love in their life, who have broken up with them to get
them back. Its fantastic material in my opinion.
And also, Michael, we were talking the other day about the
concept of condence and what condence means. And I
nd in my own programs, when I survey the many women
on my list, condence or lack of condence is an extremely
big problem. Insecurity. Women not feeling condent dating
and women not feeling condent once they get into a relation-
ship, seems to be one of the biggest issues that is aecting
women out there and in my opinion keeping them from hav-
ing the kind of fun, sexy, wonderful relationships they want.
So Ive invited Michael to come to the line with me here today
to talk about condence and to give you tips on how you can
drastically increase your personal condence to have a better
love life, better relationships and better life overall. Michael,
Id like to start o just asking you, what does the word con-
dence mean to you, especially as it relates to women, and why
do you think so many women have condence issues when it
comes to dating and relationships?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right. Okay, so rst of all thanks, Michael, for
you know, that introduction. I always like it when people say
nice things about me, appreciate that.
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vicnAcL riouc: What a condent thing for you to say! There you
go.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And you know, when we were talking about
this the other day I chose to go out and just to be especially
equipped for his interview, I chose to talk to some of the most
beautiful and most single and most happy and most satised
women that I know in relationships. And I spent some time
this last week asking them some of these same questions,
because I wanted to get, you know, their perspective. You
know, the conclusion that I came to is that everything that
youve heard about men in relationships, unless youve heard
it from Michael, is wrong. And the reason is, because, heres
what happens, is women who are single sit around and they
talk about, they talk to each other about why theyre single
and why theyre unhappy. What happens is, the idea of con-
dence, which is predominantly kind of, just has this male
connotation right, that its a male
vicnAcL riouc: Its got a certain dominance feel to it. Its got that,
like, guy walking up to any woman or doing anything and
feeling unassailable.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Exactly, right. Yeah, I love the word unassail-
able. But you know what, I like to put it into a dierent con-
text, because I think that there, you know, just like there are
polarities, right, the male energy and the feminine energy, I
think we can apply that to this same thing. Its pretty well
regarded that one of the most attractive qualities in a man is
condence. But it doesnt really make sense to me for that to
be one of the most attractive qualities in a woman, because
thats a male trait. So as Ive been thinking about it, Ive come
up with this idea that the most attractive quality in a woman
is vulnerability. And I dene vulnerability as the essence of
strength. And heres what I mean by that. A woman who is
vulnerable has this (snaps) this un. . . she doesnt even have
to say it, it exudes from her. She says, You may hurt me,
however that will not crush me. And because Im so secure
with who I am, I am me, and I cannot be crushed by your
rejection or approval. And what I heard in all of these inter-
actions is this continued refrain, and Im sure that this rings
true for you Michael and for the people on the call, is you hear
this all the time, I just dont want to get hurt.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, very much so, yeah. I know many women who
write me, I get emails all the time from my email list and on
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Facebook fromwomen saying, I can never love again because
it hurts so much right now. Or, that man did this to me or
did that to me, and they basically turtle up at that point.
They become emotional turtles or emotional hedgehogs, right,
and kind of go from there.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, and the thing is, lets just, I mean there
is so much to say about that, you know the whole idea that
he did this to me and
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, we can rant on that all day. I talk about this
in my program, actually, about how the concept, any time
you use language, whether actually speaking it or thinking
it that way, where you say that a man did something to you,
youre basically giving him a tremendous amount of power
and framing yourself as a victim from then on. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right, and you know what it really does is it al-
lows you to abdicate responsibility for, you know, being happy.
But lets just, lets come even, you know, make it into brass
tacks. What happens in that situation is that woman carries
this idea that this happened, and she carries that 300-pound
gorilla on her back into the next relationship. So what hap-
pens is some guy comes up who has done nothing to her, has
had no reason to be scorned or skeptical, and she already as-
signs to him all of the baggage and the hurt that came from
the last relationship.
Nowheres the beauty of what were talking about for a woman.
The woman, and Ive met women like this, and I would liter-
ally get down on my hands and knees and crawl 50 miles in
order to be with them because they have something that is,
as you say, unassailable. They have this (snaps) this essence
about them, and that is hey, you know what? Life is, Im
going to get hurt and its okay. And when that strength, that
essence of strength, is there, what it does is it creates a safe
place for a man to be a man. I dont know, Michael, have you
ever seen the movie Garden State?
vicnAcL riouc: I have. Great movie.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Awesome. So Zach Bra, in the movie, hes
talking to Natalie Portman and he says, You feel like home.
vicnAcL riouc: Yep.
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vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Now that is exactly what were talking about.
And because if you look at her character, she is exactly what
were talking about. Like,yeah, she has emotions, Im not try-
ing to propose that women become hardened and not have
any kind of emotional reaction. She has emotions, however,
they dont cripple her. They dont keep her from exuding
courage. They dont keep her from being a woman. See,
what happens so often is when women get hurt, then they
abdicate their femininity. They give up the beauty and the al-
lure and the thing that makes men crave them, and they put
themselves into a situation, unfortunately, that allows them
to just be continuing the cycle.
And Ive kind of come up with two basic, well theres three
ideas, right, and typically once a girl gets hurt she goes to
one of these three, we can talk about that in a minute. But
the whole idea is that in the movie Zach Bra is moved by this
woman. And hes moved by her because of her vulnerability.
And I know that vulnerability has a, kind of a weakness con-
notation, but I stand completely in the opposite and if you
know somebody whos vulnerable you know that they are ab-
solutely strong.
vicnAcL riouc: But I think the key is to think of it as vulnerable,
not in, like, not like a war context, right? Like a war con-
text is oh, hes vulnerable here, so were going to attack him
there, right? But its vulnerable as far as being unguarded to
a certain degree. Not having your shields up all the time, not
feeling like you have to keep the world out, or keep emotions
out, or hold people at arms length all the time for fear of oh,
its going to go wrong, or youre going to get hurt. What I
hear you saying is, yeah, youre going to get hurt and thats
okay, thats part of what it is, thats part of believing to live
as a woman.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Theres this delusion, isnt there, Michael, that
some day when, you know, at the end of the rainbow or, you
know, when you get a pot of gold or meet the right person,
then youre never going to get it again. Lets just imagine this
for a second. Lets live in that alternate reality, okay.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, great, sure.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Lets live in this alternate reality where you never
get hurt. That would be miserable.
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vicnAcL riouc: It would.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I mean, can you imagine being in a relation-
ship and being so unmoved by the person that you love that
they, that you dont feel any pain when they say something
that hurts you?
vicnAcL riouc: Well, never getting hurt means not caring.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats exactly right
vicnAcL riouc: Fundamentally, it means not caring. It means not
being in love, or not being in lust or not being anything. Just
being closed o.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats right. It means being, it means not liv-
ing, youre just existing. And in order, you know, in order
to have love you need to have the opposite. In order to have
exhilaration you need to have the other. So lets just be rid
once and for all, I mean for all of you girls and women and
lovely ladies who are on this call, lets just be rid once and for
all, and when youre friends tell you, just be rid of the whole
notion of not getting hurt again. Because its just absolute
rubbish, and more than that, it puts you into this mindset
that sets you up for failure. And this is why people who are
in unhappy relationships or arent in relationships, they are
in continual refrain, I dont want to get hurt. Oh, I got hurt
in my last relationship. Well, of course you did.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And thats okay.
vicnAcL riouc: And youre going to get hurt in your next relation-
ship, too. I mean my girlfriend and I are going to hurt each
other in one way or another. We had a little ght the other
day, it wasnt a big deal, but we both got hurt and then we
came back together later and went from there. Thats just
part of how it works.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Heres the beauty right? The beauty is being
hurt sets you up to be healed. And is there anything better,
Michael, is there anything sweeter or more satisfying, well,
besides sex, is there anything sweeter or more satisfying than
that?
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vicnAcL riouc: Well, sex can be a great way to heal, too.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right, in that blissful reconciliation. Like by
being hurt you get the opportunity to have someone help heal
you. And dude, every one of us has been sick or injured or,
you know, in some way not our best and been the beneciary,
been the recipient, of someones kindness. Doesnt that feel
great? Doesnt it feel great to be healed by another person,
by their care and their love?
vicnAcL riouc: So basically, give them the opportunity to help you
heal, right? To give them the opportunity to open yourself
to the idea being able to connect with other people in a way
thats going to give you that healing, thats going to give you
back that lovely feeling again.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right, cause what happens usually, right, so
somebody gets hurt and what happens immediately? Closed
o.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And then whos going to help you? How are
you going to resolve this hurt? Ill tell you, it doesnt happen.
What happens, and I know you know this, Michael, because
Ive gone through some of your programs and I. . . First of all, I
just have immense respect for your integrity and the way that
you kind of hold a banner against all of the other nonsense
Im speaking about in relationships. Im really so glad for the
people who are a part of your newsletter and they get to get
that.
vicnAcL riouc: Well, thank you very much. Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah but you know, the whole idea is you get
hurt and then theres nothing to do about it, theres nowhere
to go, and all that does is it gets buried deeper and deeper
and deeper. And what sprouts up, when you plant hurt, is
resentment and bitterness. So you get hurt, and instead of
allowing it to be healed, instead of being open to expressing
that and being okay that youre hurt, instead you bury it.
Right? And you bury it deeper and deeper and deeper, and
before long youve got resentment and bitterness. And for
some reason you guys are arguing about absolutely nothing
and its because the things that hurt you, you buried six feet
into your soul.
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vicnAcL riouc: And so you cant be honest about them at that
point. It makes a ton of sense to me, actually. It makes a
ton of sense as far as the pain I see so many women going
through when theyre with men. You know, when theyre dat-
ing men, when theyre, you know, in a relationship with men,
of just, like, feeling so angry, feeling so bitter, feeling so de-
fensive all the time.
Honestly, in my program to a lot of degree, a lot of times I
explain to women the part of the problem is women have the
expectation that men feel and interact in the same way that
women do. Right? And one of the reasons that women get
hurt so much is because they basically have this expecta-
tion that men feel in the same dynamic way that women do,
and that men are as. . . I dont want to say manipulative, but
as crafty as women are. Right? Women often assume that
men are, because women are crafty, women are, and Im not
saying this as a way to diss women but women are more ma-
nipulative in a lot of ways. Women tend to make plans and
play games
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Emotionally, emotionally.
vicnAcL riouc: Emotionally, very much so, yes. I mean, men play
their own games. Emotionally they do this, and women as-
sume that men are going to do the same thing and so they
make these gross assumptions and when men dont live up to
those expectations women get hurt, they turtle up, they be-
come more and more dependent. Theyre like, why cant you
prove to me that you love me etc. etc. etc. and it becomes
this vicious kind of circle.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, I love that expression. I think you coined
it: turtle up.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Turtle up.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Just for clarity, when you say women are more
manipulative emotionally
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: What do you mean by that?
9
vicnAcL riouc: I mean that women have a tendency to, usually un-
consciously I nd, but women have a tendency to play games,
that try to get what they want in a relationship. Right? And
I nd that most of the time theyre not doing it on purpose.
Very few women are waking up and saying, Im going to play
a game with my man today to try to get himto do what I want.
But subtly, in ways they dont even necessarily understand,
women nd themselves doing things that try to get a man to
slay a dragon for her, basically. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And heres the beautiful thing: men want to
slay the dragon for you. I mean, theres nothing that is more
exhilarating to a man. Not making money, not, you know,
getting the award at his company, not winning the gold medal.
There is nothing that is primal, that is more satisfying to a
man than slaying the dragon. However, if is coerced
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: If its an obligation, then, you know, there is
resentment, build up on both sides.
vicnAcL riouc: And I nd in my own relationships, you know, my
current girlfriend is great at not needing things from me,
right? And shes very condent in our love, shes very con-
dent in our relationship, and she doesnt need things from
me, and she doesnt, you know, whine or manipulate me for
things, which actually motivates me to do more for her.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Well, thats partly a credit to you, because of
the way that youve been tender and loving with her.
vicnAcL riouc: Well, we also work on our relationship a lot, which
is a whole other thing, but yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Heres the thing, so you know, in talking to
these women before our call and the much work that has
gone into this realm, theres all these books out there.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, many, many, many.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Women on this call may be familiar with Why
Men Marry Bitches. Now I love this.
vicnAcL riouc: Great title, great title, yeah.
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vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I love the title, and Ive actually read through
a good bit of the book. And heres the problem, that is, great
marketing and its great as a concept, however all of these,
rst of all, theres like 150 things, right? Dont be the one to
call him. Always be the one to end the phone call.
vicnAcL riouc: Yep.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Make him call, all of this. And rst of all, its
nauseating to try to keep up with all that. Second of all, you
implicitly and subconsciously set this up as a competition.
Youre setting up your relationship as whos going to win
this. Now of course, if you follow all this womans advice,
then you may win at rst, until youre emotionally invested
and youve set up a context that has no real structure, has no
real foundation, it has no real soul. Instead its strategy pos-
turing and angling, and once women are invested emotionally
they are no match, because they will do anything in order to
make this relationship work. Because women, I think, have a
great deal more commitment than most men do. And so these
ideas, these ploys to kind of get a guy, while they may work
in the short term, end up really just being disadvantageous
and hurtful to you.
vicnAcL riouc: I actually think its very similar to, you know, guys
who study how to pick up girls at bars. Where there are many
techniques you can use that, you know, such as negging,
which is concept where you play on a womans lowself esteem,
dierent openings people use or things like that.
Michael, you still there?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I am, yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, great. And youre basically manipulating women
into feeling attraction or feeling low self esteem and going
home with you. That can be great if youre just interested as
a guyand many guys are, quite honestlyjust getting a girl to
go home with you for one night and going on from there, that
works well. The problem guys run into is when they actually
decide, hey, I really want a girlfriend.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
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vicnAcL riouc: Right. And suddenly they nd themselves, yeah,
I got this woman to go home with me once or twice, and now
Im trying to have an actual relationship. And none of that
stu works anymore. None of that stu is useful in any way
in actually developing a long-term relationship with a woman
whos going to see you and understand you.
Because guys want to be seen and understood for who they
are and accepted for who they are. Want to be accepted for
being guys, which is a lot of what I teach. Teaching women
how to accept guys for being guys and being okay with the
fact that theyre guys, theyre morons sometimes, its ne. I
think its very similar to what youre talking about here with
women. That will work to get a guy to get a ring on your nger
but its not going to give you that relationship you want.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah and imagine starting a relationship based
on all of these strategies, and then continue to do that for the
rest of your life. I mean, how vapid and soulless. So, you
know, I think you can sum it up, and Michael, we havent
talked about this so Im going to go on a limb here
vicnAcL riouc: Go for it.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And put something out there. I think that theres
really only two things that you need to do in order to get a man
to fall in love with you.
vicnAcL riouc: Great, okay, what are they?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: One: you earn his respect. Okay, so let me
back up. Its very popular and its very well known that women
love to be pursued. Man they love
vicnAcL riouc: Oh god, yeah. Constantly. And they get angry
when theyre not pursued.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, and justiably. I completely get it. I
mean, they want to feel wanted, and that is absolutely un-
derstandable. Men dont want that. Men, which is why a
woman will say I love you, and a woman thinks that means
the same thing as her hearing I love you, but it doesnt.
What a man wants is respect. A man wants to be respected
for his accomplishments. Respected for being a man.
12
So theres two steps. One, which is why if you tell a guy you
respect him, its way more powerful than I love you. But
heres the deal. You rst earn a mans respect, which means
not trying to manipulate him, not trying to play these games,
cause the guy that you really want is going to see through
that nonsense. I mean, if you pick up some knucklehead
who doesnt have any social acumen, well yeah, it will work.
vicnAcL riouc: Just like with guys who are picking up girls using
some of that player stu. Yeah, you can get a girl with low
self esteem who doesnt like herself very much. Do you want
to be in a relationship with that woman? Like, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So rst of all, that stus not going to work,
and second of all, the guy that you want, hes got more to
oer than just tricks and that. So rst, you earn his respect
and that is, well get to this in a minute, about being this
vulnerable woman.
And then, and heres the magic, right? Magic is you tell him
that you respect him. Michael, have you ever been in a con-
text, and I know you have cause youre very successful and
youve done very well for yourself, have you ever been in a con-
text where youre with someone, some sort of mentor, some
sort of person who you really look up to, and theyve said to
you, Wow, Michael, really well done?
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, yeah, yeah. Many times, many times. And
you know, depending on who it is, its the biggest thrill in the
world.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Exactly. Thats exactly right. And that is what
moves a man. If youre a golfer and youre out and youre
playing golf, and Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson or whoever
you likewell leave Tigers indiscretions, you know, to the
sidebut somebody who is really great comes up to you and
says, Michael youre really doing great. Your golf swing looks
great. How awesome is that?
vicnAcL riouc: Its amazing.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Heres what a woman needs to do. A woman
simply needs to learn, well theres inherent respect for that
golfer, theres inherent respect for your mentor who has been
very accomplished and then if, when he bestows that respect
on you, its a transference that is miraculously powerful.
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vicnAcL riouc: And intoxicating in a lot of ways.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats exactly right.
vicnAcL riouc: You can oat on it for days after that.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And heres where I realized this. I was dat-
ing this girl, I was going through a particularly low point in
my life, there was a pretty life changing event that had taken
place several years ago, this is actually where we met, and I
was pretty low. Like I was living in a friends garage, I was
driving and old Jeep that didnt even have a top so when it
rained I would just get poured on
vicnAcL riouc: You just got wet, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, exactly. And I was pretty much just com-
pletely messed up. And I met this girl at a Starbucks, and
Michael, this girl was the cats meow. I mean, she was from a
very wealthy family, very blue blood, fashionable to the nines,
everywhere she went she just exuded this vulnerability, she
exuded this desirability.
vicnAcL riouc: This openness to the world. Openness to the world.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yes, this openness, this curiosity. So for what-
ever reason, God only knows, we started hanging out and I
obviously had a lot of respect for her; she came from a great
family, she was very classy, she had great posture, she you
know, all of these things. And were driving back after I had
run my Jeep into a ditch, which is an embarrassing story,
but were driving back and she turns to me and she goes,
Michael, I want you to know that I believe in you.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I could have soared to the stratosphere from
that. So the whole point is this, you earn a mans respect
and then you tell him that you respect him. And so it might
look like this: Hey baby, you know what? I know that youve
been going through a lot at work and its been really chal-
lenging, and I just want you to know Im so proud of the way
youve handled it. Im so proud to call you my boyfriend, my
husband, my man, whatever.
14
vicnAcL riouc: You know, Michael, I want to stop you for a sec-
ond, because I think a lot of women who are listening are
saying, Oh, that sounds so basic. Right? And it reminds
me of in my Text the Romance Back, I have a whole section
on what I call Appreciation Texts. Right? And occasionally
Ill get emails from men or women saying, Oh, thats so sim-
ple. You know, I could have gured that out myself. Yeah,
but you didnt, and youre not doing it. Right? Youre simply
not doing it. People simply dont take time to do this, and
in my own relationship, my girlfriend, I remember one of the
moments that I fell deeper in love with her was early on in
our relationship, we were really just getting together, and we
were totally into each other and she has this thing where she
just tells me, Michael youre a really good man. Right? How
simple was that? How incredibly simple is that? But it shook
me to my core.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Dude, Im like 2,000 miles away from you and
it moves me.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah, but again, how simple is it? Youre a
really good man. And for guys, what do guys want? We want
to be seen as a good guy, as a good provider, as a powerful
person, right? And its so simple. You know, women, some-
times they assume men already know these things, or they
think that men want the same things that women do, which
is I love you so much. Lets talk, lets have these really emo-
tional conversations, blah, blah, blah. When really, all a guy
wants is his womans respect and appreciation.
And I want to tangent for a really brief moment here cause
its something that came into my mind while you were talking,
that you inspired, which is this concept of a woman having
appreciation for her mans passions, not contempt for them.
Having appreciation for her mans passions, not contempt for
them, because what I see a lot in relationships. . . You know,
for instance, this weekend I was at a parkour class, which is
like this really cool, athletic jumping over things thing, with
a friend of mine. I actually broke my toe doing it, but thats
okay, its a whole other thing. And a good friend of mine
was there, and he was talking about, you know, a guy who
I work out with regularly, and were both into doing Crosst,
we both take being physically t very, very seriously. And he
was telling me that his wife does not like that hes as into the
gym and going to Crosst as he is. That she actually gets
15
angry about him scheduling life, to a certain degree, around
this thing that he is really passionate for, right?
And its honestly, for women listening, its the absolute worst
thing you can do. No matter what it is. Oftentimes women
will look at a mans passionate thing, a hobby hes really pas-
sionate about, even his job, and see it as the enemy. Right?
Theyll see he loves bowling, he loves golf, he loves watching
football, right, or he loves going to the gym, or he loves play-
ing video games even. Its so easy for women to look at video
games as, like, this horribly childish thing, right? But hes
passionate about it, and if as a woman you can say this is
something youre passionate about, and it makes you happy
and I respect it
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: Right. It can quite honestly transform your rela-
tionship.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Dude, isnt it. . . Youre so right dude. And isnt
it so adorable to see, maybe if on a Sunday afternoon, if you
go and, like, watch football somewhere, isnt it so adorable to
see the girl there with the jersey on, and you know, just, she
doesnt give a rats petuski about football but she. . . What it
says is that jersey and her cheering doesnt say, Hey, I love
the New England Patriots. It says I love you, baby.
vicnAcL riouc: And even though I dont personally love this other
thing, I love that you love it. I love that youre passionate
about it. One thing I talk about in my Secret Survey program
is a huge mistake that women make, a huge mistake that
ruins relationships in my opinion, which is they want to be
their mans number one priority.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Right? And I know this can be painful, because
women who are listening, theyre like, well, I should be. Im
his wife, Im his girlfriend, Im the mother of his children, Im
the woman he wants to spend his life with. I should be on
his mind all the time. I should be his number one priority,
the thing he cares about and loves and adores more than
anything else in the world. And its hard for me to tell women
this, but youre never going to be.
16
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And you dont really want to be.
vicnAcL riouc: And you shouldnt be.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, heres the thing you really dont want to
be. And you can prove this by thinking about this. Every
woman on this call, every woman in existence has been in a
situation where some guy just fawns
vicnAcL riouc: Oh my god.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Fawns and fawns and baby, what do you want
me to do? Can I see you again? Can I see you again? And
how attractive is that? See, women dont want to be the ob-
ject of mans full desire. They want to be a part of an adven-
ture. They want to be the one who gets swept away on the
adventure. They dont want to be the adventure. Thats too
much pressure, thats too much expectation. They want to be
swept away, and Ill tell you this, the thing that every woman
if we could broadcast this across every womans computer, ra-
dio, etc.the amount of power that you have to create either
a blissful relationship or a horrendous relationship. . . How
many stories, how many anecdotes have you heard of men
who have achieved greatness and then said its because of
my wife.
vicnAcL riouc: Many.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Its because of love and the support. But the
other way goes just as well, you know. Its you can crumble
them by wanting too much.
vicnAcL riouc: And by having, again, having contempt for his pas-
sions. No matter what, and this goes the other way too,
women who are listening. If we were doing this call for men,
we would be saying not quite the same thing, but similar
things around how to support women and how to really be
a great partner for women. But I think the key is, I know
there are women who are listening who think about some of
the stu their men care about and hate what they care about
right? Hate that, whatever it might bey shing, hunting,
whatever its going to bemen are always going to have those
hobbies or those things they are really driven, almost ob-
sessed by, right? And the worst thing you can do is look at
those things as competition. Theyre not competitions, right?
17
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yes, yes, exactly. Theyre compliments, because
passion doesnt live in a box.
vicnAcL riouc: No.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So if Im passionate, which I amI love snow-
boarding, I love personal development, I really love interacting
with people, I love seeing people get it, right? And that pas-
sion, the more that I feel that, the more I feel in every area of
my life. So you know, in the relationship with a girl that Im
dating, the more passion that I feel about any one thing, its
going to benet her as well. But if shes trying to short circuit
that, well, you know, it just doesnt work.
vicnAcL riouc: Thats really interesting because it reminds me, when
I do my surveys to my list and I asked, one of the questions
I got was, Where does male malaise come from? Right?
Women will sometimes talk about, you know, when I met
this man, when we rst got married he was so passionate,
he was so driven, and now several years later, after a couple
of kids and a job he doesnt like and all these responsibili-
ties, why does he just come home and watch TV at night?
Why doesnt he want to sleep with me anymore? Why doesnt
he have that drive anymore? And I think part of that, you
know, theres a lot of reasons, a lot of guys are just miserable
in their lives. They dont feel that they have power, they dont
feel like they have control over whats going on, but I think
its also they had to give up the things they were passionate
about. Those other things, outside of their women, outside of
their relationship, right? Family and responsibility override
everything else. Like, I remember, my girlfriendand again I
adore my girlfriend
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: You are awesome, Michael, you are awesome.
Keep going.
vicnAcL riouc: Thank you. But like one of the things I teach women
is that you should not be your mans top priority, but you
should be in the top three, generally speaking. If youre in
the top three, youre doing pretty damn well. Like, if youre
number three, thats actually the perfect place to be. Like my
own girlfriend, she knows that my business, which is around
relationships, is extremely important to me. You know, when
I talk about it, Im passionate about it, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Obviously.
18
vicnAcL riouc: Like, tness, music, games, reading, all these are
other things that Im extremely passionate about, and she
would never ask me to give those up. Now she might say,
Hey, Thursday night is date night. And out of respect for
her, Ill leave my phone at home, I wont talk about work, I
focus on her, we have a great night. Right? But we can make
Thursday night into that special night where were going to be
really together and connected because shes not constantly
saying, Well, why are you doing this? You know, when I say
hey, Im playing poker with my friends on Monday night,
shes like well great, have a fantastic time. Right? Not well,
can you do this with me instead? over and over again.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Or, even worse, say oh, okay and then
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, and be mad about. . . Actually, I know that
when Im sitting there with my friends and they get the phone
call from the girlfriend, right, or the wife, and they get that
soft tone in their voice, hey honey, how you doing? Oh yeah,
Ill be home. . . Im not sure when. . . Ill be home at like. . . Im
not sure when Im going to be home. Well, were playing the
game. Well. . . and then he hangs up the phone. Yeah, I got
to make sure Imout of here by eleven. And its, like, basically
all you do at that point is youve cut your mans balls o and
put them on the poker table, and I just won them from him.
Right? With my full house of having a girlfriend who respects
and appreciates me instead of having contempt for how I want
to spend my time as a man.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, yeah. So man
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I think theres really two critical points of dis-
tinction here, and one is that, you know, in order to create the
kind of relationship that you want, you got to stop listening
to people who advise these kinds of stratagems, these games
and
vicnAcL riouc: How to catch a man, you know. How to catch a
man. What is he, a puppy?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Is he a sh?
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, are you going to put him shbowl and hold
on to him?
19
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: An aquarium? And then, you know, I want to,
if its alright with you, Michael
vicnAcL riouc: Please.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I want to give the women on this call just some-
thing to consider, and its something that Ive been evolving
as Ive been doing this work for some time now, so this is the
product of a number of years of research and development,
and every woman that I have told this to has just found this
to be profoundly insightful. So is it alright if I share that?
vicnAcL riouc: No, please do! Go for it.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So I. . . In the realm of relationships, Ive di-
vided women up into three dierent categories, right? And
this is not categories as who they are, but based on their be-
havior. And every woman on this call will be able to recognize
each one of these. Your friends probably been into one of
them.
So one is the needy girl, and I call her The Leech, right?
Everybody knows the needy girl. Okay, so she might be fun
at rst, she gets a boyfriend and then all of a sudden, boom!
Oh my gosh, when are we going to go out, and. . . You know,
just needing his approval, needing this validation, and its ex-
hausting. Its exhausting for both parties. Its exhausting for
the woman because shes insatiable with her desire, and its
exhausting for the man because he cant seem to do anything
right.
vicnAcL riouc: And needing assurance from him. Again, I talk
about this in my program. About how horrible it is for a man
to tell a woman you love her, to tell a woman you appreciate
her, to tell a woman you want to fuck her and shes gorgeous
and sexy and all these things, and have her not believe you
or not react to that.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: I harp on this a lot. Its one of the most emascu-
lating things a woman can do.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats exactly right. And when youre bleeding
a guy dry with demands and expectations, then you really
rob his vitality to want to fuck you.
20
vicnAcL riouc: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And guys want to take, I mean were hunters,
we want to seduce. We want to pursue. We want to make you
surrender. We want to make you give yourself up, almost,
almost against your will.
vicnAcL riouc: Well, actually, lets take a second here. I mean this
is, this goes into sexual fantasy. And we were talking about
this before you and I started recording, around how many
men do have the sexual fantasy of seduction, right? And why
that is because men want to feel powerful. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: And in my programs I talk a lot about how men
almost never are made to feel desirable themselves in rela-
tionships. Its very rare that a man is actually made to feel
sexy by a woman. Which is something Im working against,
personally. I want more men to feel sexy cause I think its
really cool. But. . . I kind of lost my train of thought there for
a little bit, but
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: We were talking about sexual fantasies and how
men want.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah, about the surrender concept.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: I dont. . . To be a little funny here, I dont want France
to surrender, you know? Theres that whole clich about
France giving up during World War II and it being really easy,
right? I want America to surrender. I want Russia to surren-
der. I want, you know, a man does not want to get. . . I actually
remember one time when I was single and I was sleeping with
a lot of women, right, I was going out there and I was seducing
girls and I was having a great time.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Scoundrel!
21
vicnAcL riouc: Well yeah, Im a horrible, horrible, horrible per-
son. Yes, I know. I will say I never got any complaints in all of
the women I was with, we were always very open with, about
heres what I want. We had a great time, we had fantastic
sex, and were still friends. But I remember one girl in partic-
ular who found me to be the single most sexually attractive
person shed never met in her life. Right? And she would, I
would get within ve feet of her, and her brain would turn o
and she would turn into a kind of a, a slut, essentially. She
was a lovely girl. Like, you know, Im pro-slut. If you want to
be a slut, you can be a slut. I think you should warn. . . But it
was really fun at rst, right? But at a certain point it stopped
being as much fun for me.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: Because I didnt have to work for it. At all. Now
Im not saying a woman should ever deny sex, or, you know,
should use sex as a bartering tool or anything like that, right?
But I am saying that a man has to feel like hes getting you.
And that youre something worth earning, and that youre
something worth seducing. And that when you surrender
its a big deal, you know?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Its a satisfying goal to have achieved to get you to
surrender, to get you sexually, turn you into this woman who
is wanton and desirous and just, you know, humming with
vitality and humming with desire for it. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Dude, you couldnt be more right. You know,
when I was dating this one girl and we had this back and forth
relationship, right? And a big reason for that was because we
would break up and, you know, I never. . . We just had volatile
relationship. But when we would break up, then the ideaand
everybody on this call get this, because this is power, this is
powerfulwhen we would break up, the idea in my head was
can I still have her?
Now I dont want you to make any judgments on the morality
of is that right, is that wrong, thats not the point here. And
you can totally think Im a terrible person, thats ne. But
get the benet for yourself, which is that me wanting to have
her surrender, me wanting to seduce her and have her open
herself and penetrate her defenses, was absolutely powerful.
And I would, and I would go over and I would do anything
that it took
22
vicnAcL riouc: You would crawl over broken glass, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats exactly right.
vicnAcL riouc: To get here again. To. . . And theres a little bit of evil
to it, right? Theres a little bit of darkness to it, to a degree.
Getting a little feedback on my line here, but theres a little bit
of, like, wanting to have that thing that youre not supposed
to have. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, yeah. Well its, I think what it is, is you. . .
When that happens, everybody loves these movies that are
just so seductive. What happens in that situation, when I
wonder can I have her? my conscious brain is done. Its
my limbic brain, its the unconscious part of me, that yearns.
And what woman doesnt want to be yearned for? What women
doesnt want to be just so absolutely wanted that I will, you
know, do whatever it takes in order to make it happen?
So thats one, right? Thats the needy girl. And the needy girl
doesnt ever get to experience that. The needy girl doesnt,
The Leech doesnt ever get to experience a guy who just longs
for her. Who thinks about her and instantly is aroused.
vicnAcL riouc: Because most of the time with needy girl, Ill tell
the women who are listening, when the guy thinks of you he
thinks of a job.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Exactly. Michael, thats so exactly right. Its
an obligation, its just not enjoyable, and you know, nobody
likes sex as an obligation. Or love, as a point of fact.
Now lets juxtapose that with the other end of the spectrum,
and the other end of the spectrumis the exact opposite, which
is The Bitch. And I mean this not as an insult, I mean it
as a matter of clarication, and everybody knows this girl,
right? So I live in Denver, and there are plenty of beautiful
women here, and I went out to this very posh kind of hang-
out. And me and my buddies were there, we were just having
a good time, and I noticed there was this group of seven to
ten women, Michael, all dressed to the nines, all stunning, all
absolutely beautiful and all single. And if you talk to them,
theyll tell you all guys are assholes. All guys just want sex.
But heres the thing, and for women listening to this, get this.
If youre inclination is to be unobtainable, if your inclination
23
is to be unapproachable, if youre going to make a guy work
so hard and kind of have that, you know, that air of you cant
have me, heres what you do. You set up a context where you
make yourself the prize, you make yourself the conquering.
Okay? So what happens is for a guy, automatically, he thinks
oh, you think I cant have you? and for guys who are good
at seduction, they do have you. They penetrate through all
those defenses and then once they have you sexually, then
the games over. So
vicnAcL riouc: Michael, its actually important that we throw in a
distinction here, because a second ago we were talking about
how we want women to make us work for it to a degree, right,
and make them a prize. And now youre saying that by mak-
ing a woman, by a woman making herself the prize she is
hurting her chances of having a real relationship. I under-
stand the distinction here, but can you talk to that distinction
a little bit? About what the actual dierence is there?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I will. I think it will be most helpful to illumi-
nate in the third
vicnAcL riouc: Okay. Great.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: But just for understandings sake, this cate-
gory, the bitchy kind of unobtainable girl. . . I mean, there is
moderation in everything, and so the girl who is wanting to
be so hard to get that a guy has to make all this eort, you
create this context where all he wants to do is fuck you. Once
he does, then theres nothing, theres nothing else. Theres no
foundation for anything else. So now, Im glad you brought
that up
vicnAcL riouc: Actually this speaks a little bit, before you move
on, this speaks a little bit to a complaint I have from women
sometimes. Why does he work so hard to seduce me? To
woo me? To talk to me about emotional things? Look deep in
my eyes and take me out to all these wonderful places? To do
all these things before he either gets to fuck me or gets me to
be his girlfriend or whatever else, but doesnt do any of that
afterwards? Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: This is the answer. Its because if youve, and
look, Im a rm believer that women set the context of the
interaction because thats just the way that it is, and men
operate within that context. And so you, as a woman, create
24
the context for a man to operate within. And by creating this
context you set yourself up for failure.
So the third category is what I call just The Vulnerable Woman.
And that woman is. . . See, the thing about the bitchy woman
is that shes so concerned about getting hurt that shes go-
ing to ght you o, ght you o, ght you o. Its not that
shes being, making herself a prize, shes just reacting. Shes
trying to keep herself from getting hurt. Shes trying to be
protected, shes trying to protect herself. And that is the in-
authenticity. The Vulnerable Woman, on the other hand,
is able to freely make herself unobtainable in a sense, make
herself willing to be worked for without the edge of thats all
there is. So theres still this pursuit. Theres still this mys-
tique, which is absolutely fantastic, but theres an invitation
to come and get through it. Theres an invitation, theres an
openness. The distinction between The Bitchy Girl and the
Vulnerable Girl is that theres no invitation with The Bitchy
Girl. Its all guarded. Its all hands up.
vicnAcL riouc: And it becomes aggressive for guys, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Oh yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: It becomes like, you know, like football or some-
thing like that. Oh, that bitch is putting up her hand and
she thinks shes all hot. Shes wearing that dress and shes
dissing every guy here. Im going to prove that. . .
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats exactly right.
vicnAcL riouc: Im going to prove that I can master her.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: You hit the nail right on the head.
vicnAcL riouc: And I think with the Vulnerable Woman, what
youre saying is its not about being unattainable, right? So
we were talking about that concept of being unattainable,
putting that forward, its not that a vulnerable woman makes
herself seem unattainable but she makes herself or she is,
truly is, a woman who is worthy of being earned and worked
for. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yes.
25
vicnAcL riouc: Its not that shes putting up a game at that point.
Its not that shes putting up some idea of, like, you know,
Im like some hot for tottot thing. Its a woman who is, again
going back to condencewhich is what this call is on a meta
level aboutits a woman who is condent enough in herself
and realizes that she is a prize.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yes.
vicnAcL riouc: Right. That she is a woman who is worth being
pursued. A woman who is worth being earned, and a woman
who a man can earn again and again and again. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, its not a protection, its not a fake front,
its this is who I am. So how do you do this right? Because
I know that the women on the call, I know that you. . . Like,
concepts are great and you know all that and its great fodder,
but what does it really mean?
Well rst of all, it means in real behavior that one, you have
to be willing to go above all of the stories that you have, all
of these defenses that I dont want to get hurt, and just get
over this notion. Get over this illusion of not getting hurt.
vicnAcL riouc: Because you are going to get hurt. You are
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, and theres this. . . Its almost as if not
getting hurt is the god, its the zeitgeist, god of the age, right?
I dont want to get hurt! And if you achieve that somehow,
youve achieved nirvana. Lets just get rid of that, and instead
replace it, right, because we need to replace it with some-
thing, with Id rather be satised. Instead of I dont want
to get hurt, I would just rather be satised.
vicnAcL riouc: It reminds me of the whole concept would you
rather be right or would you rather get what you want? Or
would you rather be right or would you rather be happy, you
know? When people are ghting and theyre like, I need him
to admit that I was right, well, you can do that or you can
just choose to be happy. You can just choose to realize that
being right is not that important.
26
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And listen, for all of you that are listening to
the call, you know Ive experienced this in my own life, when
Im, you know, learning something and I think, Oh man, you
know, I am the only one thats like that, and I suck, and
I. . . you know, theres no hope for me. Listen, its just sci-
entically true that theres nothing that human beings nat-
urally want more than to be right. Theres nothing that is
more motivating to a person, naturally, than to be right. And
thats why you see, Michael, all of these relationships where
they just are terrible. Because each person is focused on be-
ing right. So for you, sweetheart, that you are listening to
this call and you desperately and genuinelyand I mean des-
perately as a means of strengthyou really want to create a
relationship where you get to give all that you have, cause I
know that you have a lot, and you want to receive it in return.
In order to do that the rst thing is this. The rst thing thats
required is to give up being right. You dont need to be right.
And Ill tell you a quick story, right?
vicnAcL riouc: Please.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So I have a few products, and I got an email
from a girl who was very unhappy with me.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh, okay. Great.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And she just went on for several paragraphs
vicnAcL riouc: I cant believe you read the whole email.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Well, you know, I was curious, because I wanted
to nd out what this girls angle was.
vicnAcL riouc: Sure.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And what I realized was, and you know, this
particular girl is, you know, lambasting me and saying that
my product was no good, whileand I knowthis because of the
storyshes dating a guy who is married. And you know, ac-
cused me of all of this in-authenticity and, you know. . . which
is totally ne. And what I realized was, its so important to
this girl to be right and shes absolutely miserable.
So you can be right if you want, but its not going to get you
what you want. So the rst thing is to give up being right
and that takes some practice, honestly. It takes, because
youre used to, you know, however old you are, youve been
practicing being right for that long.
27
vicnAcL riouc: And ghting to be right. Fighting for that satisfac-
tion of well, Im right over and over again. Yup.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And the fact is, is that theres only one way to
win an argument and that is by losing. And if you can get
that, right, if you can get that theres only one way to win the
argument and that is by losing, then youre well on your way.
So if youre single and youre wanting to attract the man that
you want, rst of all dont do any of this dumb shit. Dont do
any of these dumb games, because rst of all they get tire-
some, and two theyre just built on in-authenticity.
vicnAcL riouc: Yep.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And two, as. . . Im going to say something that
youre going to want to dismiss, but Im going to invite you
to just sit with it. Be you. Dont be, dont try to be what
you think a guy wants you to be. Because rst of all, thats,
theres no way that you know that, and two, youre just spin-
ning the wheels trying to be someone else. And instead, be
who you are and heres what I mean. We all know people who,
you probably know somebody whos kind of weird, right?
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, I believe myself, Im kind of weird, you know,
but I hide it well so
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Social awkward. I used to be in the Navy. I
have a friend who is the most social awkward man I ever met.
I would say, Oh Brett, whats going on? and he would liter-
ally look at me for like ve to ten seconds without replying.
He would put his eyes, like, he would move his eyes around,
and then hed be like good. He was so weird. He kind of
creeped me out.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: He became one of my best friends because he
was so authentic. All of his quirks became things I just liked
about him. So be okay with that, because that, those things
that youre so afraid of, those things that are so embarrassing
to you, are the things that are going to be so adorable to the
man that you want. Does that make any sense?
28
vicnAcL riouc: It does but I can hear the objection, right? I can
hear the objection from single women in particular, which is
going to be but Michael and Michael, if Im myself hes going
to realize that Im neurotic. Hes going to realize that I have
low self esteem. Hes going to realize that Im not that cool.
Hes going to realize blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and hes not
going to like me. Hes not going to be attracted to me. You
know, Ive been myself when Ive gone out before and Ive been
at a bar and Ive met guys and Ive gone on these dates and
Ive been myself and it hasnt worked. Or the guys that Im
attracting are not the guys that I want at that point. And
what you would say to that?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Well, rst of all Id say that the being your-
self as a, you know, she need to come up with another term
because
vicnAcL riouc: Well I think the key is, like, being yourself does
not mean being satised with the things you dont like about
yourself, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: That you objectively dont like about yourself. I
hate low self esteem, right? I think people are. . . In another
call I was talking about how I think humbleness is more toxic
than anything else and people need to own, you need to own
your awesome. Right? And women in particular need to own
their awesome and be like heres. . . And these days, you know,
when you look at actual statistics, women are signicantly
more awesome than most men, right? Women are the ones
who are making really, really cool stu happen. But it doesnt
mean just, like, looking. . . Like me, personally, Ive done a ton
of personal development over the last ten years. If I. . . You
know ten years ago when I was in my early twenties wed be
on this call, and I was a self loathing, skinny, angry person
who couldnt walk up and talk to any woman, right? And
hadnt even, just couldnt do anything, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: And over the years I havent, like, changed who I
am, I havent played a lot of games, but Ive learned how to be
the better version of me, right? Ive learned how to be the me
that Ive always wanted to be. Ive learned how to take that
core concept of who I personally amand accept myself enough
29
to have condence, to have drive. To be like, you know, Im a
big hairy, weird, fast-talking guy with ADHD, right? Its who
I am, right? And I own that, and its been very successful for
me because I take what youve got and you use it. As opposed
to trying to deny it. You work on your strengths as opposed
to your weaknesses. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And it doesnt, the whole idea of being yourself
doesnt mean that you just, you know, become a limp like
vicnAcL riouc: It doesnt mean giving up
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: It doesnt mean, like, you just put all of your
faults on the table. Oh, you know, I need to, you know, do
these things in order to be better. It means being authentic,
being legit. Not trying to impress. And Ill make the point,
I think very clearly this way. Any woman who has been ap-
proached by a guy from the Jersey Shore who thinks hes so
cool and so awesome and I make so much money and Ive got
such a huge penis and I drive such a great car, how attrac-
tive is that to you? See, its no dierent the other way. Every
woman, every woman wants a man who comes up and says,
Hey, hows it going? Whats your name? And feels legit.
Now you might have the objection well, that doesnt work
and I dont attract the guys that I want. Well youre going
to attract the guy that you want that way rather than trying
to put on this show thats inevitably going to, the gigs up at
some point and you know, then youve kind of got this trick.
vicnAcL riouc: To me it really all comes down to knowing your-
self and accepting yourself, really. And accepting the vari-
ous things that are about you, the good and the bad. And,
you know, knowing who you are and knowing, like, just like,
something Im big on is not really care if people think too
much. Know who you are, accepting who you are and being
ne with that no matter what. Right? This is who you are,
its okay. I actually think nding happiness is knowing who
you are to a very large degree. Knowing that youre not.
You know, I used to have a problem with jealousy sometimes.
Not like romantic jealousy, but professional jealousy. When I
was younger, I would be like oh, this other guys younger
than me, hes making more money, and blah, blah, blah
right? And that would be an issue for me. And then at a
certain point I thought, You know what? Thats not what
30
I want to be doing or who I am or what gives me integrity
or what gives me energy. And once you kind of understand
yourself. . . For one thing its extraordinarily attractive to men
to see a woman who truly understands who she is and accepts
who she is and is not just running from you know, ridiculous
workout to ridiculous workout to try to attain some unattain-
able ideal body that blah, blah, blah. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah. Look I know dozens of very, very beau-
tiful, very, very successful, very, very sexy, I mean just in-
credible bodies and very, very single women. And theyre so
enamored with their own image, Michael, so enamored with
I want to look like this, I want to be like this, I want to act
like this that there isnt room for a man. Theres only room
for someone who, theres only room for another image. Do
you understand?
vicnAcL riouc: Its almost like an accessory, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Its like relationship as an accessory. Its like well,
Ive got my Prada handbag and my cool shoes and now I need
the boyfriend.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right. Can you see that all you create there is
a charade. Youre both pretending. And look, if thats what
you want to do, then do it. But just do it recognizing that
thats what youre going to do. Now if you want to create a
relationship, and I know that you do, I know that you want
to have a satisfying relationship, then you do it in a way that
works.
Now to use an analogy, do you want someone to build you
a house in 45 minutes because its easier and its quicker?
Or do you want them to take their time to build it? Well for
you, then try, no, be willing to consider that the amount of
time it takes isnt the biggest issue, its the quality of what
you are building and attracting. And Im going to tell you, if
you take the advice that Michael is giving you and the advice
on this call and go out and put it to the test, be a woman
who is willing to put aside all of your fears, all of that I dont
want to get hurt nonsense, just put it aside for a couple of
weeks and just give it a shot, youll nd that the quality of
man that you attract is a billion times better than the quality
of man that you attract who just wants to get in your pants,
tell you what you want to hear, and then end up making you
feel cheap and used.
31
vicnAcL riouc: And most guys do just want to get in your pants. I
mean, thats kind of a sad truth, at least at rst.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Well, I mean listen, going back to that girl that
I told you about who, you know, the girl that just had such
an impact on me
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Dude, I didnt want to get into her pants, I
wanted to ravish her. I mean, there have been girls where Ive
just wanted to like, you know, lets go home, lets get naked,
lets do it.
vicnAcL riouc: Sure, yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: This girl, I wanted to ravish her. I mean, dude,
we would be together and every moment spent with her in-
creased my desire for her. It was desire under control, like it
wasnt like, it wasnt like I was even trying to sleep with her.
I was building the anticipation. Building the desire, building
that longing and every moment just made me want to ravish
her even more. Now I would guess that every woman in the
world would rather be ravished than fucked.
vicnAcL riouc: Depends on the day, but yeah, overall. Yeah, yeah.
And again I think what makes her so ravishable is that con-
dence, that vulnerability, that not, that not needing you.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats right.
vicnAcL riouc: That not needing a man, not needing, not having
her self-image be a reection o of you. Right? Many, many
women base their self image of a reection of their husband,
their boyfriend, o men in general or o other people in gen-
eral. How I think about myself is based on how other people
see me. Right? As opposed to how I think about myself as
based on how I think about myself, and what I am and what I
want to be, the story I tell myself about who I am. If you think
of. . . I meant the women. . . I know so many beautiful, con-
dent, you know, beautiful, intelligent, amazing women who
dont see themselves that way, right? They let themselves be-
lieve the lie of Im not skinny enough. Im not tall enough.
Im not successful enough. Im not blah, blah, blah enough.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: My boobs arent big enough.
32
vicnAcL riouc: My boobs arent big enough. Right? Its like. . . Im
a guy, right. You know there are some guys who are boob
guys but the rest of us, its not that important. Right? Its
one thing out of the matrix of who you are.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Im going to tell you something that is abso-
lutely true and Im sure that youll agree with me, that the
thing that is seductive about a woman isnt the size of her
boobs, or the size of her ass, or the length of her legs. The
thing that is seductive about a woman is her essence. And for
the women that are listening, the way to get what you want
is to continue to practice, continue listening to the stu that
Michaels telling you. Continue allowing his, these ideas and
this philosophy and this way of life to inltrate your mind and
replace all of the things that have been lling it. All of the,
you know, the gossip and the man hating that women do, and
all of the excuses. Instead allow stu that is good for you, like
the stu that Michael is teaching, to replace that, and I will
tell you what, in 6 months, 18 months, 2 years youre going
to look back and youre going to write
vicnAcL riouc: a thank you letter. And youre going to say you
know what? I was listening to what you taught, I was reading
your emails, and I thought it was total bullcrap but I did it.
And because I did it Im in love with a man who cherishes me,
who adores me, and who wants to pursue me. Thank you.
Thats what youre going to nd if you do it.
vicnAcL riouc: And more what I want for the women who, you
know, are on my list and use my programs is to have that
stillness and condence. And to have that ability to be in
their life, whether in a relationship or not, and be happy in
it. And, you know, be like that calmness in the middle of the
river, as opposed to being bueted around by the waves all
the time, emotionally. To be accepting of your emotions, to
be accepting of your desire, to be accepting of men and to, to
be accepting of men for men. And be accepting of yourself for
being a woman. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: There, I think that you know, its ne, youre a
woman, thats wonderful. I love women. Men love women,
right? And smart men love women for being women not lov-
ing women for being some weird ideal that doesnt exist.
33
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Completely agree.
vicnAcL riouc: Well golly, Michael weve covered a ton in our time
here and I think
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Has this been helpful?
vicnAcL riouc: Its been helpful to me, and you know, I think some
of the concepts weve talked about have been kind of aston-
ishing and even some material, just the way you got my own
brain sparking. I was actually taking notes while we were
talking about some ideas that I want to develop further. Like
the appreciation for his passions as opposed to having con-
tempt for them, things like that. What you were talking about
the three types of women, and particularly that concept of
vulnerability and what that concept of vulnerability means,
and receptiveness means as a woman. How men are so at-
tracted to a woman who is open and receptive to him, recep-
tive to his masculine essence, receptive to his energy without
being needy, without being, you know, a succubus vampire
the entire time, an emotional vampire the entire time, right?
I think its very deep, deep stu and is really very, very com-
plimentary to the material that I gave them in the Secret Sur-
vey, as well. I mean, I think this really hammers home a lot
of those core ideas around, you know, accepting who men are
and being who you truly are and not playing games. Right?
Those games, like Michael was saying before, the games, you
know, the rules or you know, Why Men Marry Bitches and
things like that. I dont personally think marriage should be
the goal. Right? If you want to get married, if you have that
dream, if you have the American Dream of getting married
and having a couple kids, thats ne. But the goal should be
to have a good relationship, right? The goal should be to have,
the goal actually should be to be happy, right? To wake up
every day with whatever relationship youre in and be happy
in that moment and build from there. As opposed to having
the goal be, you know, we all know these women that make
list. Well I want to be married by the time Im 28 and I want
to have my rst baby by the time Im 30 and were going to
buy our house in the Hamptons, were going to do this, were
going to do this. Its never going to happen that way.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And theyre miserable.
vicnAcL riouc: Theyre miserable. And honestly the American Dream
is a lie.
34
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: To add as an asterisk to the idea of, you know,
the goal being happy, I agree and the goal of being happy and
feeling signicant, feelinglook, Im a big believer in the idea
that people want nothing more, nothing more than signicant
connection. You know, even doing this call, Michael, right,
and us just talking through these things, it is immensely
pleasurable to me and the reason is because we connect.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: We have this similar mind set, we are similarly
ambitious dudes and similarly ambitious for helping other
people. And we cannot, cannot connect if youre faking. You
cant do it. You cant. . . Well, you can appear to do it, but you
cant get the benets of that signicant connection without
being for real.
vicnAcL riouc: Without having integrity of who you are. And with-
out respecting who you are. You know, you were talking be-
fore about how men want respect from their women, which
I think is huge. I think its incredibly huge and its, I know
so many men who feel belittled by their partner, right? By
the ball buster, and its not even that the women, I dont usu-
ally blame women for this, I usually think that if a man, a
woman has contempt for her man its oftentimes cause the
mans. . . well A, she has to understand herself well enough
and B, the man has to understand himself well enough to
give her the attention that she actually needs, right? When
I teach guys I teach them this all the time. But oftentimes
the women does need to kind of take the lead in this kind
of thing, but you also have to have respect for yourself. You
need to understand that you, that no matter what the man
in your life does, no matter how he reacts to you, whether he
shows you he loves you, sweeps you o your feet or fails to,
cheats on you, does all these other things, that is not about
you. That does not reect on who you are. You need to have
an image of yourself that is separate from his reaction to you.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, and you knowwhat you just said brought
a distinction that I wanted to mention earlier which is the
distinction between the unobtainable Bitchy Girl and the
Vulnerable Woman. The unattainable Bitchy Girl has one
boundary, and that is the boundary of getting in. Once you
get in, youve got no boundaries. The Vulnerable Woman
doesnt have a boundary to getting in. All of her boundaries
are within your interaction. So when you meet a girl whos
35
like the Bitchy Girl once you bypass that very thin veneer
of defense, well then, you know, theres nothing there, theres
no boundaries, theres no self respect.
vicnAcL riouc: And usually youre in crazy town at that point.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Oh my god. Not that Ive ever experienced it.
vicnAcL riouc: No, no, never, never, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: But
vicnAcL riouc: None of us have ever been with a model quality girl
who turns out to be crazy.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah. And then the Vulnerable Woman is the
woman who has an open door on the front and boundaries
once you get in. So there are certain things that she will
accept and that she wont. And its okay. And those are the
things that are, Michael, those are the things that are so lack-
ing, because so many women are fed this nonsense from the
friends who are dissatised.
vicnAcL riouc: From Cosmo
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: From Cosmo, who wants
vicnAcL riouc: By the way, guys, Cosmo just wants to sell you
more issues of Cosmo.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, well Cosmo wants to sell you more issues
of Cosmo so that they can sell their advertisements to all of
the stu inside.
vicnAcL riouc: I will admit myself,
vicnAcL riouc: , I do want to sell you more products as well. I want
to sell you training programs, but I want to do that by helping
you evolve to higher levels.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah if the things that youre selling arent help-
ful, well then thats just not going to work.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
36
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: But the things that youre selling are helpful,
and as I said before, its the type of thing where, look man, we
all have those seminal moments where we look back and we
say this was something that really put me in the right direc-
tion, and your stu, Michael, the stu that youre teaching
these women is that type of thing. Its the kind of thing that
allows them to look back and say, Man, Im so glad I ran
across this guys email or website because man, it really did
change the way that I lived my life and now Ive got a lot more
satisfaction as a result.
vicnAcL riouc: And a lot more happiness and a lot more calmness
and a lot more sex and a lot more fun and a lot more enjoy-
ment of the people in your life and
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: A lot more ravishing
vicnAcL riouc: Ravishing, like really, really good sex instead of
that disconnected whatever thats kind of going on there. And
love the concept of ravishment. I love the concept. . . One
thing I talk about in the program is the, a mans darker de-
sires that a man has, right? And weve touched on that a
little bit. Weve talked about how men want to, you know
we all have it. I think you and I, Michael, we both are pretty
evolved guys, right? Were both guys who understand women,
we respect women, love women, can talk to women. And Ill
tell you, just like any guy, weve got really, really dark sexual
fantasies. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Totally.
vicnAcL riouc: And theyre there and thats, is that a big deal? No.
Right? I think so many women, they cant seemto accept that
a man can both be a great lover, a great husband, a great dad,
and also have these really dark ideas going on in the back of
his head.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Dude, dude you just reminded me of this awe-
some story. So I was out last night with a buddy of mine,
right? And hes kind of going through a tough time, what-
ever. So we went out and had a cigar and, you know, theres
this girl there, and bro, her legs looked like they went, her
legs were like Jacobs Ladder. They just went to the heavens,
right? And she was wearing these, like, really short shorts,
she had just come from this water park, and you know, I told
her, I was like, Sweetheart, your legs are just. . .
37
vicnAcL riouc: Amazing.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Theyre hurting me.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: You know, and shes like yeah, I noticed you
staring at them. Which was awesome. And I was like, Sweet-
heart, listen, any girl who wears short that are that short
dont play games with me.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: You want me to stare at them.
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: At that point, she had nothing to say. And you
know, theres this idea, and this is a perfect example, that girl
embodies the whole like bitchy idea. Right? You go in, and
Im going to show o these great legs and then when some-
body remarks about them, Im going to act like theyre being
wrong. Right? And then lets. . . I called her on her bullshit.
Theres nothing, I mean she was there, there was nothing left
for her to say because she had been found out.
vicnAcL riouc: Its kind of like walking down the street in a Barney
costume and getting mad when somebody mentions it. You
know?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: Its like, Nice Barney costume. What the helld
you bring that up for?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Theres more to me than just my Barney costume.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Well, dont wear the Barney costume.
38
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, kind of go from there. Yeah. It also reminds
me of one concept that I have read about objectication by
the way, which is, like, actually think objectication of women
and of men is a positive thing. And you know, especially when
youre. . . I mean, of course we objectify. I mean, I think we
can chat for awhile. This is really interesting stu, so before
we nish up, but yes, guys do objectify women. Right? And
thats a good thing. Weve been doing it for millions of years
now, right? And its how we propagate as a species, its how
we overpopulated the planet, by objectifying women. Yes, we
notice. The key is to. . . As a guy, what I teach guys is, is to
objectify a woman and not be creepy about it. Right? Not be
ashamed of your appreciation
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Thats key right there.
vicnAcL riouc: Right. What most guys do, and Im sure women
can relate to this, youll catch that guy whos, like, looking
at you out of the corner of his eye and then looks away right
away and is like, you know, hunched over like The Hunchback
of Notre Dame and looks really ashamed of the fact that hes
checking you out. As opposed to just being a guy whos like
yeah, Im looking at ya. Youre very attractive, I like what I
see. It causes a chemical stew in my brain, you know, it gives
me a hard on, it does whatever else. And thats not a big deal,
right? Its just not. Its a simple fact. Youre an attractive
woman, Im a guy, of course Im going to be attracted to you.
And I also think that women could actually do well by ob-
jectifying men more, right? By, this is something that Ive
discovered in myself and also in a lot of guys, I talk about
this in my program, but I think its worth repeating, is the
idea of most men are never objectied. Right? Most men are
never objectied by women anyway. I live in Seattle, and its a
very gay friendly city, theres a lot of gay guys here in Seattle,
and I remember the rst time I was really hit on by a guy. And
Im secure enough in my own heterosexuality that it doesnt
really bother me, you know, Im like, okay thats cool. But
the energy of it was amazing.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: Now I dont want to sleep with a guy. Im a hetero-
sexual guy, if I was gay I would go there, but Im not unfortu-
nately, or fortunately, or whatever. But the energetic transfer
39
of having a man look at you with lust was really, really fasci-
nating. And I realized that women never do that, and that if
a woman can learn to do that, if a woman can learn to look
at a man, particularly a man that shes with, with actual lust
sometimes, its insanely powerful.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, I was. . . So I live in Denver, as I said, and
youre absolutely right dude. And the other night we were up
in Boulder, do you know the Avit Brothers?
vicnAcL riouc: Oh yeah, yeah, love them. Amazing stu. Yeah.
One of my favorites, actually.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: They were in concert at Boulder Theatre and
me and my buddy, we go up there. Were at this bar/restaurant
and this girl, and Ive never had this experience before in my
life, I see her from across, you know, the place, and she like
penetrates me with this gaze which I thought, I mean it was
really hot but it was actually a little unnerving as well.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: It was awesome. Dude, she walks over, says
hi and puts her hand on my crotch.
vicnAcL riouc: So wait, Michael, are you sure you werent in a strip
club?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: This was not a strip club. This was a restau-
rant, and I thought wow, and you know, it was a great open-
ing, great conversation starter but you know that stu just
does not happen very often because of this kind of prudish
idea. And I want to be clear because I dont want women to get
the wrong idea. Im not suggesting that you be the aggressor,
or that you be some sort of, like that men shouldnt pursue
you, or that its your responsibility, I simply bring that story
up because it had an eect and it was very arousing.
vicnAcL riouc: Very much so but also I think its important to un-
derstand, I tend to tell women to do that more in relation-
ships. Right? With an actual man. There is some danger to
doing that when youre single, right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Agreed.
40
vicnAcL riouc: Like doing that when youre single, and I mean this
is because of cultural things, right, this is not because of, Im
not against women being sexually aggressive, personally, and
I think, but unfortunately in America particularly, acting like
that to a lot of guys, they will go to a really negative place
really quickly. Right? They will think shes a slut. Shes a
prostitute.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And you dont get a lot of respect that way.
vicnAcL riouc: You dont get a lot of respect that way. For a woman,
if you want to use this when youre single, its more about irt-
ing with a guy and then just being a little, you know, its more
about howyou look at him. Its more about howyou tease him
to a certain degree, right? And maybe, when youre having sex
with a man, you know Devian Days a friend of mine, he has
a great program on dirty talk, where he talks about that us-
ing that dirty language that makes him feel sexy, that makes
him feel desired. Talking about his cock, talking about him
as a physical being, talking about what hes doing to you and
how it makes you feel is very powerful. Now Michaels exam-
ple very, very, powerful but again, be careful with that kind
of thing. That kind of thing can denitely backre with you.
And that woman, you know, if you were single or whatever
else, you might consider going somewhere with her, having
sex with her but its not somebody, that would generally not
be how you start a relationship.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Clearly not. Clearly not and I only bring it up
as a juxtaposition of what we were talking about
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah, very much so.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And talk about the whole sex thing, the thing
that I think is really sexy when youre having sex with a woman
is her breathing.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh god, yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right? I mean Ive, you know, been with women
who just dont say or do anything until, you know, the time
comes and, you know, that theres so much you can make a
man feel so manly by simply breathing and expressing how
well hes doing. I mean look, the fact of the matter is, the
most fragile thing in the world is a mans ego and especially,
especially when it comes to sex. Every guy thinks his penis
is too small, hasnt had enough experience, and he doesnt
know if hes going to be able to get you o and he, you know,
all of these things that theyll never tell you.
41
vicnAcL riouc: Are you actually enjoying this? Are you actually
enjoying this? Oh my god, what am I doing? Are you lying to
me? Is she faking her orgasm? Whats going on? Did I make
her come? Can I make her come? Whats going on?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Exactly. Is she even feeling this? And all of
those things that theyll never tell you because, you know, its
just embarrassing for them. Those things you can, if youre
aware of them, man you can capture a mans heart and make
it a safe place for him.
vicnAcL riouc: And like again, going back to my Darker Desires
concept, creating a place where he can be a man, right? I
think most guys feel pretty emasculated in our culture at this
point. Right? A lot of guys do any way. They feel, well, nice
guys do I guess. Nice, smart, guys feel pretty emasculated
because
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Could we say respectful guys?
vicnAcL riouc: Respectful guys, yeah. Guys who actually do be-
lieve that women are equal to men. Right? Now I think men
and women are equal but theyre very, very dierent.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Totally.
vicnAcL riouc: And we can, you know, how dierent is a whole
other thing. I stay in the relationship and sex eld, that kind
of concept. But a lot of guys make the mistake of thinking,
Well, you know, we need to have this, its like a race to the
bottom about how we treat each other. We treat each other
as sexless automatons all the time and, you know, work, and
when you meet somebody etc, etc, etc and theyre like. . . Well
its like the guy, I was talking to some female friend of mine a
while ago, she was helping me with another program of mine,
and she was talking to me about a guy she was dating here in
Seattle. Really nice guy, but he was like, Is it okay if I touch
your breast? Right? Which any woman who is listening goes
that is the least attractive thing Ive ever heard in my en-
tire life. But men have been brainwashed in our culture into
thinking that, you know, feminismand loving women, and ap-
preciating women means desexualizing women. Right? And
so a lot of men are scared. Theyre like, Well, I dont know
what to do. I can get in trouble if I ever, oh my god if I even
admitted that I found that women attractive.
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vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah.
vicnAcL riouc: Oh my god or the yeah, I was looking at my coworkers
butt in her skirt. Well, of course he was. You cant ask him
not to. Right?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Right.
vicnAcL riouc: Its like its hard drive, hard wired primal, primal
stu there.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So Michael, what do the women who are on the
call, what do they do when they are the recipient of that?
vicnAcL riouc: You gotta be, you know, its an interesting thing.
Its realizing, its internal game stu to me, its inner game
stu to me. And its realizing that just because a man looks
at you, looks at your body, right, in that way doesnt really
have anything to do with you as a person. Right? Its not
about who you are, its simply a reaction that he has.
Now of course, in the workplace, things like that, men do
need to learn to be respectful, right? To not leer, to not make
sexist comments, things like that. Right? But that does not
mean taking sex and the concept of sex and the biochemical
stew that is in our brains out of the equation, because its
impossible to do. Right? A man is never going to be able to
look at woman as an asexual creature. It simply is in eect.
Instead, a better way to go is simply to acknowledge, Yeah,
Im looking at you. Of course I am. And if he could do it
more openly, if a woman could be more just like thank you
for looking at me. Im glad that you nd that nice, but lets
move on. Right? As opposed to being
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah and
vicnAcL riouc: to being a big deal. Like depending on the context
right, if its just out in the world. I mean, I know attractive
women who tell me yeah, we get checked out all the time and
some guys are ne with it. But what I do is, you know, Im
a big fan of the concept of being appreciative but not creepy.
And simply being like, yeah, youre a very attractive woman,
big deal. Right? And I teach guys that, but the women need
to do it as well. The women need to be able to take a mans
desire, and take a mans appreciation, and be ne with it.
Now granted, there are lines that men can step over, there
are some guys who are misogynistic dickwads out there, but
there are also a lot of guys who try so hard not to come across
as sexist.
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vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, its hilarious.
vicnAcL riouc: That they emasculate themselves and they just make
everything horrible. Its like. . . yeah go ahead.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: But you know, for girls who, and women, who
get checked out a lot, which happens, couldnt they use that
as kind of ammunition? Couldnt they feel that? And without
judging who its coming from, right?
vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Cause like, your story about getting checked
out by or getting hit on by the
vicnAcL riouc: The gay guy, yeah. I live on Capitol Hill and Im a
61", 210 pound, hairy guy, all the time. So
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: So, right, so you know the way that I see that
is if I were in that situation and, you know, I dress kind of
like a gay guy because I like fashion, so gay guys hit on me
and I kind of think yeah, awesome.
vicnAcL riouc: Totally.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I just think Im a good looking dude, or, you
know, and so women who are hit on by guys, even if they
dont like them or whatever, cant they use that as, like, stu
to build up their self esteem?
vicnAcL riouc: Very much so, very much so. They can just be like
listen, I got something going here.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Absorb it or something.
vicnAcL riouc: And just because the wrong guy is doing it at any
given time, well thats not really the important part. Its more
just taking that energy, taking that energy that somebodys
giving you, and then also being willing as women to give that
energy to guys sometimes, especially when youre with them
on the long term.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And nding out that Im checking you out to
make you feel sexy. Look the reason that a guy is checking
you out is because youre hot.
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vicnAcL riouc: Yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And you might not like him, you might, you
know, not think that hes cute or whatever, but you can dis-
associate those two and just take the good from it and say
damn, I am hot. And that is very attractive.
vicnAcL riouc: Very much so, and knowing that youre hot, know-
ing what you have going on, knowing what your assets are,
right? Knowing what it is about. And again, like, you know
women ask sometimes what is a man rst attracted to: my
body, my mind or my soul? Its your body. Guys are visual,
and we always are going to be attracted to a woman at the
rst on a physical, primal level and going on from there.
But just like, you know, own what you, you know, nd things
about your body that you love. Right? It can be hard for
some women because its like I dont look like. . . whos the
current, you know, super model thats out there, Kate some-
thing. Kate Upton I think is the newest one, right? I dont
look like her. Well no, but you dont have to. You simply have
to know what it is about you that is hot, that you love. Right?
And understand that men like all sorts of women, by the way.
Well Michael, weve covered, we have covered a ton, and I
think we, you know, its interesting, we kind of, like, hit con-
dence from a lot of dierent levels, and it really comes down
to self respect, self image, accepting yourself, loving yourself,
accepting men and realizingI talk about this in my program
its not really, you know, what men do isnt really about you
and your happiness, and your sense of self respect and your
sense of self condence and vulnerability cant come from
men. Right? Its got to come from you, its got to come from
who you are. Youve got to be able to look at yourself and be
like I know who I am, I know what I am, and to a guy thats
extraordinarily attractive.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: And it has to come from practicing it.
vicnAcL riouc: Very much so.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Its not a one-time thing. I mean, if you wanted
to learn how to play the piano, youre not going to sit down
and start playing, you know, Beethovens 5th. Youve got to
practice it, and if its not important to you, well thats ne,
just dont practice it.
45
vicnAcL riouc: Dont do it. But dont complain about it either, you
know?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah. Its like just recognize, hey thats not im-
portant to me, Id rather do this, and thats ne. But if its
important and, you know, learning from people like Michael
and being able to practice the things that hes teaching, man,
its just absolute satisfaction gold.
vicnAcL riouc: Satisfaction gold. I like that, I like that. I keep
Michael around to be my hype man for me so I dont have to
sell my stu myself, but
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: This is true.
vicnAcL riouc: Well thank you, I mean, I appreciate that. And
also, you know, Michaels programs themselves are freaking
great. Im sure you can tell from being on the phone with him
for an hour and half nowthat weve been doing this. This man
knows his stu, and theres nobodys stu who I recommend
more besides my own stu, which of course I recommend all
the time. Fantastic material, quite simply, fantastic material,
fantastic insight into relationships, fantastic insight into men
for women, so really wonderful stu.
So Michael I want to thank you so very much for being here
today. Where can people, where can women learn more about
you?
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah well, Im working on a program now and
Ive got this idea. The idea is to, instead of creating, you know,
a book or a program, Ive got an idea of creating a small coach-
ing group, and it would be an inclusive kind of thing. There
would probably not be more than, I dont know, 10 or 15 peo-
ple and it would be calls that we have together as a group and
my commitment to anyone who ended up being on it would
be that you would be able to achieve what it is you want to
achieve relationally by the time that were done. Probably be
like a four-week program, and wed be on the phone. You
know thered be one day of teaching, and then a Q and A ev-
ery week, along with some material that you can download
and all that.
Now the product is still in development, but if you want to get
more information about it, if you want to you know, be aware
of when it comes out you can go to the site, Its called Dont
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Date Douchebags, which is awesome. The purpose of this
program is really to take, its really a classy womens guide to
dating and relational happiness. And rather than, you know,
a lot of times people have questions, people want to know
how do I apply this to this? or Im seeing this guy, or this
guy at work kind of has shown some interest and what do I
do? Well, I want to make myself available and create a group
environment that allows that to happen. So if youd like to
check that out there is an application process actually, so
the rst
vicnAcL riouc: As well there should be, it seems, so yeah.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: Yeah, cause you know its, you know I want
to be working with people who are like minded, who want
to achieve a certain level of relation and are committed to it.
Because you know, its, you know, it takes some eort.
So they rst step is to go to dontdatedouchebags.com and ll
out your name and email address so that I can email you. And
what will happen then is Ill email you the application and
theres, if you dont want to then its no problem, and if you do
then if youre one of the rst few to get in then you know well
be able to work together as long as youre approved, and I can
guarantee you with absolute certainty that my commitment
to you will be unwavering and that you, whatever it is that
you choose to desire at the beginning of our program, you
will achieve that by the end of it. So, thats the deal.
vicnAcL riouc: Well, fantastic. Michael, thank you so very much. I
know the women who have listened to this so far, Im actually
thinking of certain customers of mine who interact with me
on Facebook all the time and I can hear themyou knowsaying
Oh my god, this is wonderful! you know, and going to write
a post about it right afterwards and I think weve covered a
ton.
I want to thank you so much for helping me drill down some of
the concepts I present in my own stu, and also bringing your
own unique perspective onto relationships on condence, on
men, on seduction, and sex, and helping me further my mis-
sion of helping women understand men as they actually are,
you know. How men actually are, because nobody ever actu-
ally. . . Ive done so much research on so many programs and
theyre all full of these lies about guys. Or they try to soften
47
stu so much that they actually obfuscate it beyond recog-
nizeability. And my goal is to take men and demystify them
for women, and have you understand men and love men and
have men love you for it. So Michael
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: I want to commend you, man. Its rare that you
nd people in this line of work who have the integrity, and not
just that, but the insight and the ability to communicate it
and Im just really commend you for what youre doing.
vicnAcL riouc: Well, thank you very much. So Im Michael Fiore,
Im on the phone with Michael Griswold. You can learn more
about him at dontdatedouchebags.com, which is the second
best URL Ive ever heard. I cant tell you the rst one, cause
its one that I own for one of my mens programs and its kind
of dirty.
But thank you so much for being a part of this program, I
really, really, appreciate it. And Im sure the many women,
the thousands of women, eventually, that will hear this will
as well. Thank you.
vicnAcL ouiswoLn: All right, see ya.
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