Inlevvieved I Sinon BaIev, Favis, FeIvuav 2001

AulIov|s) JocIen Oevz and Sinon BaIev

Souvce OxJovd Avl JouvnaI, VoI. 24, No. 2 |2001), pp. 27-39
FuIIisIed I Oxford University Press
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JocIen
Oevz
Inlevvieved
I
Sinon
BaIev, Favis, FeIvuav
2001
Hov do
ou vespond
lo lIe levn inslaIIalion in veIalion lo
ouv
ovn
pvaclice?
I use lIe levn inslaIIalion
deIiIevaleI
in ovdev lo
appI
il lo vovI lIal doesn'l
laIe
pIace
in lIe nuseun ov al Ieasl nol
excIusiveI
in lIe nuseun: vovI lIal
Ias a douIIe slalus.
B
lIis I nean lIal lIe vovI
nigIl oviginale
in a
puIIic
space
Iul lIal il
na
Ie lvansJevved lo, ov ained
al,
a nuseun. In lIis
va
lIe
nuseun is no
Iongev
lIe excIusive
poinl
Jov lIe
IandIing
oJ avl and lIis
pvocess
ilseIJ is lIe
ongoing cIaIIenge.
In lIe cuvvenl silualion, given
lIe
speed
al vIicI
evevlIing
Iecones a nuseun, lving
lo 'IiII lIe nuseun' Ias Iecone
vidicuIous. WIal I lIinI is lIe veaI issue Jov lIe nuseun is lo Iave lo deaI vilI
lIings
lIal
Iappen
sonevIeve eIse,
in olIev
spaces
vIicI do nol
pIsicaII
seen lo incIude lIe nonencIaluve oJ lIe nuseun.
Fig.
1. JocIen Oevz Caulion. Avl
Covvupls,
1970. Tale, London, Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
O7FOBB ABT
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24.2 2001 25-40
?
O7FOBB UNIVEBSITY FBESS
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Inlevvieved I Sinon BaIev
Bo
ou idenliJ
vilI lIe levn in
ouv
ovn vovI?
I
do,
Iul IiIe
nan lIings
in avl
loda,
il is a IallIe lIal Ias
aIvead
Ieen von and
viclovies
inevilaII
end in connenovalions and I'n nol suve lIal I an lIal
inlevesled in lIis
pvocess.
I'n nol
saing
lIal I'n nol inlevesled in inslaIIalion's
Iislovic acIievenenls Iul lIal I an
quile Iapp
lo
accepl
lIen as sucI. WIal
vas an innovalive avl Jovn al lIe end oJ lIe Sixlies and lIe slavl oJ lIe Sevenlies
is nucI Iess so
loda.
Oiven lIal lIeve Ias Ieen a sIiJl in inslaIIalion Jvon a
navginaI pvaclice
in lIal
eavI peviod
lo ils
pvesenl visiIiIil
and
cenlvaIil,
Iov Iave
ou vesponded
lo lIal
cIange?
TIal is
exaclI
vIal I Iave lvied lo do and vIal I vanled lo
expIain
al lIe
conJevence. WIen I lIinI oJ inslaIIalion
loda,
I lIinI oJ il in lIe sane
va
lIal il
vas
lIougIl
aIoul in lIe Iale Sixlies and
eavI
Sevenlies.
Toda,
il sliII neans
gelling ava
Jvon lIe
oIjecl, gelling ava
Jvon lIe
pedeslaI, gelling ava
Jvon a
cenlvaI
pIace
Jov
scuIpluve. AcluaII
inslaIIalion neans
silualing
lIe vievev in lIis
cenlvaI
space.
InslaIIalion is
pvogvess
Iecause il suvvounds
peopIe
and il's
cIosev lo
an Iiving space
ov
an space
oJ
expevience, inlevaclion, ov
sociaIiIil.
In lIis
va
il is
slvessing
nol
onI ilseIJ, as inslaIIalion, Iul il slvesses lIe Jacl
lIal lIeve is a vievev.
Hov does lIis
Jiguve
in
ouv
ovn vovI?
BecenlI
I Iad an exIiIilion al lIe Kunslnuseun Bes Kanlons in
TIuvgau,
SvilzevIand. I inviled
peopIe
lo cone lo lIe nuseun
lIvougI nevspapev
ads
valIev lIan invilalion cavds and
lIe
veve asIed lo
Iving
an
enpl
IollIe vilI
lIen. Al lIe enlvance lo lIe
exIiIilion,
vIicI vas a
Iong,
davI
space,
lIeve vas
a
IaveI IegiIIe sign
lIal inslvucled visilovs lo
go
lo lIe Jav end and lIvov lIe
IollIe
againsl
lIe vaII.
FeopIe
enleved one
I
one Iul couId nol see lIe Jav vaII
in lIe davIened voon and so vouId Iave lo decide Jov lIenseIves vIen
lIe
veve cIose
enougI
lo lIvov lIe IollIe
|Fig. 2).
Al a cevlain
poinl, cvossing
lIis
davI
space, lIe
vouId Jind lIenseIves
vaIIing
on sIavds oJ IvoIen
gIass.
So
lIeve vas a decision Jov
evevIod,
a
queslion
'vIal sIouId I do?' IJ I an inviled
lo do
sonelIing
in lIe nane oJ avl, is lIeve a
speciaI lIing
lIal I nusl do? IJ a
poIilicaI sslen
asIs ne lo do
sonelIing,
vIal do I do? TIeve ave decisions lo
Ie nade aIoul
vI
I do lIis, vIelIev I vanl lo do lIis, lIe douIl IeJove
doing
il.
TIe
piece
vas caIIed Miani IsIel and il vas a
Ionage
lo BoIevl SnilIson,
vIo
lvied in 1970 lo
dunp
JiJleen lonnes oJ
gIass
on a snaII lidaI isIand oJJ lIe sIove
oJ Canada. He couIdn'l do il Iecause al lIal line lIeve veve lIe Jivsl
naniJeslalions oJ
Oveenpeace. TIe
undevslood nove ov Iess vIal Ie vanled lo
do Iul did nol sIave Iis
pviovilies.
Il vas lIe Jivsl line lIal lIese lvo avanl-
gavdes,
vIicI veve sliII in lIeiv
eavI slages,
Iad nel and
lIe
Iad
vev
diJJevenl
agendas.
Oiven lIe cIanges in lIe va lIal inslaIIalion is pevceived, do ou sliII lIinI lIal il
can Ie a vesislanl pvaclice?
I lIinI lIal even levns IiIe 'vesislance' ave
vev
veIalive and Iave nov Iecone
pavl
oJ lIe connenovalive
pvocess.
We connenovale vesislance and ve
connenovale
pvogvess
and I don'l lIinI lIal
evev
evocalion oJ 'vesislance'
neans vIal il
sas.
InslaIIalion is sliII
inlevesling,
I
jusl
lIinI lIal il sIouId
Ieep
Fig. 2. JocIen Oevz Miani IsIel, 1999,
on noving. Avl is nol conlenpovav iJ il is jusl quoling novenenl, il Ias lo
TIuvgau. Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
acluaII
nove.
An
Iind oJ
innoIiIil
is inslilulionaIized, ov inslilulionaIizaIIe.
28 O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
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JocIen
Oevz
Oood avl
covvupls
nove lIan Iad avl Iul is nove diJJicuIl lo lvacI dovn. TIe
inslilulion Ias an inlevesl in
lvacIing
dovn novenenl, Iul il aIso Ias an inlevesl
in
pulling
sand inlo ils ovn nolov. A JaiIuve is nol
aIvas
JaiIuve. In avl ve Iave a
Iislov
vIicI
sas
lIal
pevIaps
JaiIuve can Ie cvealive and lIal il is non-JaiIuve
lIal is lIe
veaclionav, sluIIovn, vepelilive pvocess.
We sIouId Ie
daving
lo
give
cvedil lo non-concIusiveness, lo
non-connunicalion,
lo
non-JunclionaIil.
I lIinI
lIal's
pavl
oJ lIe
spiviluaI
vesouvces lIal ve can naIe Junclion.
Hov is lIis idea naniJesled in
ouv
ovn
pvaclice?
I did a
vev sinpIe piece vecenlI,
in
nan
diJJevenl
nuseuns, caIIed
M
Wovd. Il
vas
jusl
a
page
in lIe
nevspapev asIing
lIe
queslion
'IJ
ou
couId cIoose
anong
aII lIe vovds in lIe vovId vIicI vovd vouId
ou
cIoose?' TIeve vas a
Iig
IvacIel and
peopIe
Iad lo vvile lIe vovd lIal
lIe
JeIl Iesl
vepvesenled
lIen.
TIen
lIe
cane lo lIe nuseun vilI lIe vovd and
lIe
couId
excIange
lIal vovd
Jov a lee-sIivl and
lIe
vvole lIe vovd on lIe lee-sIivl. AIso vvillen on lIe lee-
sIivl vas - 'TIis lee-sIivl is
pavl
oJ lIe
pevnanenl
coIIeclion oJ lIe nuseun' - so
ou
Iad a silualion vIeve il vas
pavl
oJ lIe coIIeclion Iul vas no
Iongev
in lIe
nuseun. Sone oJ lIe
peopIe
vanled lo
Iang
lIeiv lee-sIivls
up
on lIe
vaII, and
olIevs vanled lo veav lIen and
pul
lIen in lIe
vasIing
nacIine
|Fig. 3).
So
lIeve ave diJJevenl
vas
oJ
deaIing
vilI 'lIe
vovI', vovIing
ov
ve-vovIing
lIe
levns.
Boing
vovI
loda
neans
naIing
a decIavalion oJ vIal can Ie acIieved
and vIal vas acIieved and vIal can Ie
veccIed
inlo
sonelIing
lIal Ias nol
el
Ieen acIieved. Il's a IillIe Iil IiIe a
diaIogue
vilI lIe
Iislov
oJ avl.
Can inslaIIalion Ie navsIaIIed in deJence oJ
puIIic
vovIs oJ avl?
Yes,
in lIose levns, inslaIIalion is nol
sonelIing
lIal is Iiniled lo nuseun
naniJeslalions and il can Ie
quile
suIvevsive in a
va.
A nuseun can
IeIp
an
inslaIIalion lo
Iappen
al lIe covnev oJ a slveel vIeve lIeve is no nuseun and no
cuvalovs and no invilalion cavds. Bul lIe nuseun is sliII
IacIing
il
lIeovelicaII,
spiviluaII,
and
sociaII I saing
lIis is vIal ouv vovI is aIoul and ve ave
IacIing
lIis. Il is
inlevesling
lIal in lIis
va ou
couId Iave
sonelIing
Iappening
in
sociel
lIal is nol lIe vovI oJ an avlisl, pevIaps
in a 'JIuxus' ov a
'dada'
va.
I lIinI lIal lIe nuseun is a
povevJuI
naniJeslalion oJ lIe cuIluve,
il
Ias nevev Ieen as
povevJuI
as il is nov and
el
I lIinI ve ave sliII
IeIaving
as
lIougI
il veve nol.
So lIe nuseun can Ie
IvougIl IacI,
aInosl in
spile
oJ
ilseIJ,
lo
pevJovn
a useJuI
Junclion?
Yes, as a
cunning
and
unpvediclaIIe pvesence.
TIe nuseun is IiIe a
lin sociel
ov an
inage
oJ
sociel
and inslaIIalion is a
IaIovalov
Jov lIe
Junclioning
oJ J
sociel.
InslaIIalion in a nuseun naIes
sonelIing
diJJevenl oul oJ lIe nuseun.
Fainlings
in a nuseun ave aInosl IiIe a cavicaluve oJ a
sociel
Iul vilI
inslaIIalion
ou inagine
lIal
ou go
Jvon slvul lo slvul, Jvon
Iaev
lo
Iaev,
Jvon\
paIinpsesl
lo
paIinpsesl,
Jvon line lo
space.
You cIecI
ouvseIJ
oul aII lIe
\
'
line in lIese diJJevenl envivonnenls, vIicI ave a Iind oJ aclive
dispIa
oJ
l
possiIiIilies.
So I lIinI lIal
Ivinging
lIe idea oJ inslaIIalion inlo
sociel Ivings .
lIe nuseun inlo
sociel,
vIicI is a
ulopian
idea vIicI Ias nevev IeJl us.
Oiven lIal
ou cIeavI
see
ouvseIJ
as
Ieing
aIIe lo use inslilulions in lIis
va,
do
ou
lIinI lIal lIe
veIalionsIip
Ielveen avlisl and cuvalov Ias
cIanged
al aII?
Fig.
3. JocIen Oevz
M Wovd, 1999,
Toda
ve Iave
nan
cuvalovs. Nol so
Iong ago speciJic
cuvalovs Jov
conlenpovav BespuIIica,
Bozen.
Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
O7FOBB ABT
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24.2 2001 29
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Inlevvieved
I
Sinon BaIev
avl didn'l exisl
an
nove lIan
speciJic gaIIevies
ov nuseuns. Nov ve Iave IolI.
So lIese cuvalovs, vovIing pvoJessionaII
avound inslaIIalion, avlisls,
connun-
icalion, didaclics, and
lIeov
ave
pavlI
avlisls loo. I lIinI in Jacl il's a
joIe
lo
lv
lo
upIoId
aII lIese idenlilies,
cuvalovs ave
cIoseI
invoIved in lIe
pvocess
oJ
cvealing.
I lIinI lIal
loda
lIe
cuvalov,
IiIe lIe avlisl,
is
soneIod
vIo can
give
up
a IillIe oJ lIeiv
excIusivil
and vin a Iol.
Hov does lIe sile veIale lo lIe vovI?
TIe sile is as
inpovlanl
Jov an inslaIIalion as lIe canvas is Jov a
painling.
Hovevev, ou
can
onI sa
lIal in a
genevaI va
Iecause eacI sile is oJ couvse a
nev
decision,
vIiIe lIe canvas venains a canvas. EacI sile Ias a
Iislov,
vequives
an
enpivicaI appvoacI.
You can'l laII aIoul a sile iJ
ou
don'l Inov lIe
sile. You can'l
pavacIule ouvseIJ
inlo a sile, ou
need lo Iave sone
JaniIiavil,
connon
vools,
and connon
pasl
vilI a sile. Il's a
Junn lIing
Iul vovI in a
puIIic space
is nove
Iiniling
lIan sludio
vovI,
vIicI can Ie nucI nove nodevn.
Fainling,
Jov
exanpIe,
is
acluaII
nucI nove nodevn lIan
naIing sile-speciJic
inslaIIalions
-
ou
don'l need
anlIing, ou jusl
need
ouv Iouse-sIoes, ouv
sIippevs,
and
ou've painling.
IJ
ou go
inlo a
puIIic space ou
Iave lo Ie
lIeve,
ou
Iave lo Inov aIoul
il, ou
Iave lo Ieavn Jvon il. You can'l
jusl sa
'Iels do
sonelIing
in NevcaslIe'! TIe sile can Ie
sonelIing vev cIaIIenging
Iecause il
is
pavl
oJ lIe
unique
naluve oJ lIe connission. And lIeve
ou
cone lo
sonelIing
lolaII
diJJevenl Iov in
conlenpovav
avl can
ou
Iave
sonelIing
IiIe a
connission. TIal's anolIev
lIing
lIal's nol nodevn al aII. As lIe
oung
Mavx
said, 'lIe
vevoIulionav
is consevvalive'. I lIinI lIal
cvealivil
is nol
Jveedon:
cvealivil
is vIal
ou
do iJ
ou
undevsland lIal
ou
need Jveedon.
Ave
ouv
vovIs
sile-speciJic?
Yes. Fov
exanpIe,
vIen I vas avavded a
pvize
Jov a
puIIic
connission I vas
asIed lo do a vovI in
Bvenen,
in lIe novlI oJ
Oevnan,
Iul I didn'l Inov vIal I
sIouId do. TIe
peopIe
vIo Iad
given
ne lIe
pvize
vanled ne lo naIe a vovI oJ
avl Iul I
lIougIl, ou
don'l
veaII
vanl ne lo cone lo
ouv cil
lo naIe a vovI oJ
avl, aJlev aII lIeve ave
nan
olIev
peopIe
vIo couId Iave nade a vovI oJ avl
lIeve. I asIed vIal
lIe lIougIl
I sIouId do and aJlev lIvee
eavs lIe
sliII didn'l
Inov and
lIe
said lIal lIe Benaissance is
ovev, ve can'l leII
ou
vIal lo do. I
decided lo asI lIe
laxpaev
vIal ve sIouId
do, vIal vas
uvgenl,
vIal sIouId
Iappen,
and lIen do a vovI oJ avl aIoul lIal.
AIlogelIev, 50,000 peopIe
in lIe
cil
oJ Bvenen veve asIed lIeiv
opinions
aIoul vIal sIouId Ie done. Il vas
vev
inlevesling
and il vesuIled in lIe
vovI, lIe Bvenen
Queslionnaive.
So lIe sile
cveales lIe vovI and lIal's a IeauliJuI
lIing
Iecause lIen lIe vovI is sIaved
Ielveen lIe avlisl and lIe audience.
Bo
ou
IeIieve lIal lIe sile
inevilaII
consunes lIe vovI?
Il couId Ie lIal a vovI seens lo
disappeav,
as Jov
exanpIe,
vilI
n pvoposaI
Jov
lIe
enpl pIinlI
in
TvaJaIgav Squave
in London. TIeve is so nucI IIand
visiIiIil,
ou na
Iave
sonelIing
lo IooI
al, lIal
engages
lIe
ee,
Iul lIen
ou
don'l see
il
annove,
il's
jusl
anolIev dead Iovse. TIeve is lIis one
pIinlI
vIicI is
enpl
and vIicI oJ couvse I'd nevev
seen,
and I vas asIed lo lIinI aIoul
sonelIing
lIal I'd IiIe lo
pul
on il.
M pvoposaI
vas lIal
evev eav,
a
piece
oJ luvJ Jvon lIe
pilcI
oJ lIe
EngIisI
JoolIaII lean lIal von lIe
cIanpionsIip
lIal
eav
sIouId Ie
pul
on il. EacI
eav
lIis luvJ vouId Ie
vepIaced.
You
vepIace
lIe
Iig
nelaI
lIing
usuaII
on
lop
oJ sucI a
pIinlI
vilI a
Ionage
lo lIal
eav's cIanpion,
Iel's
sa
30 O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001
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JocIen Oevz
LivevpooI.
Il
na
in Jacl
go
on lo Iecone invisiIIe, go
on lo Ie
enpl,
Iul al lIe
sane line
peopIe
vouId Inov. WIal's
inpovlanl
aIoul nol
JiIIing
lIe
envivonnenl, nol
oIeing
lIe sile ov
disappeaving
in lIe sile is lIal
ou
Iave
a
deJicienc
sonevIeve. You sIov lIal
ou
Iave a
deJicienc
and lIal lIe
deJicienc
is lIe souvce oJ lIe navvalion. Il's nucI Iellev lo Iave
peopIe
laII
aIoul a vovI lIan lo do a vovI Iecause lIen lIe vovI is a
pavl
oJ a
puIIic
discouvse and
evevIod
does Iis ov Iev ovn vovI. TIe
enpl pIinlI pvoposaI
vouId Iave Ieen lIe Jivsl nodevn vovI lIal vouId Iave Ieen
appvecialed I
JoolIaII Jans.
Buving ouv pvesenlalion
al lIe conJevence
ou
said lIal lIe
peopIe
vIo Javouved
sile-speciJic
vovIs veve lIose vIo didn'l Iave lo
pul up
vilI
lIen,
lIose vIo
didn'l Iave lo Iive in cIose
pvoxinil.
Is lIal
sonelIing ou
laIe inlo considevalion?
Il
na
Iave
sonelIing
lo do vilI lIe souvce oJ navvalion. TIe
pIace
vIeve lIe
vovI is silualed is lIe
pIace
vIeve navvalion can slavl, Iul navvalion
aIvas
slavls al a cevlain dislance, so
peopIe
a IillIe Iil JuvlIev
ava na
Jind il easiev lo
veIale lo lIe vovI. Ils
vev
diJJicuIl lo Ie IilevaI vilI
navvalion, il's aInosl
inpossiIIe.
I lIinI
ou
Jind lIal vilI
nlIoIog,
il's nucI easiev lo laII aIoul
vIal's nol lIeve lIan lo Ie cIecIed and douIIe-cIecIed aII lIe line
I
vIal's
lIeve.
Is lIal vIal
ou inpIied I ouv
Monunenl
Againsl
Fascisn in
HavIuvg Ieing
a
Iind oJ IniJe in a vound?
|Fig. 4.)
Yes, I said lIal
evevIod
in
HavIuvg
seened lo Iale il
aIlIougI
in lIe
Iong
vun
lIal luvned oul nol lo Ie lvue, lIe sinpI
Iadn'l
gol
used lo il. TIeve's anolIev
va
oJ
cvealing
dislance and lIal's vilI line. So one
lIing
is dislance and lIe
olIev is line:
iJ
ou've
Ieen vilI
sonelIing,
even iJ il's
disappeaving, ou
can
deaI vilI il
lIvougI
lIe
pain
oJ ils
disappeavance.
You
nigIl
veIale lo lIe
disappoinlnenl
ov lIe sIane ov lIe vevoIl lIal
ou
Iave lIal il
disappeavs,
Iul
lIe easiesl
va
lo veIale lo il is lo Iave a conJevence in Nev YovI.
Has lIe idea oJ lIe 'Iieu de n6noive', lIe
veIalionsIip
oJ
nenov
lo
space, I
inlevesled
ou
in
ouv
vovI?
OvaduaII, nenov
Ias Iecone an issue oJ cenlvaI
inpovlance
Iul il vasn'l . !s !
,:.
aIvas
IiIe lIal.
Tvenl
ov
lIivl eavs ago
il vouId Iave Ieen
pvell
unusuaI lo
'i -
laII aIoul
nenov
in an avl conJevence, il didn'l
veaII
seen lo
appI, especiaII
lo
conlenpovav
avl. Jusl IiIe 'sile' and 'connission', 'nenov'
is a IislovicaI
levn lIal Ias cone IacI inlo
conlenpovav
avl. TIeve ave nove and nove oJ
lIese
Jvee-JIing pavlicIes
lIal veluvn and
nenov
is one oJ lIen.
Hovevev,
nenov
is nol
onI
an acadenic concevn, il's
IiogvapI
loo. LiIe nosl olIev -
lIings, nenov
cones oul oJ
ouv
ovn IiJe and
ouv
ovn
expevience
and lIen il
Jinds ils Jovns oJ docunenlalion. Il's a novnaI
pvoceduve
lo Iave nenovies and
a novnaI
pvoceduve
lo
pvovoIe
and lo
vepIace nenov,
il's a Iind oJ
vepaiving
joI.
I lIinI lIal
ou
can see in lIis lIe novenenl Jvon a nove aulononous vovI
oJ avl lo a nove
dependenl
vovI oJ avl, Jvon a
picluve,
an
inage,
lo a Iess visuaI,
Iess velinaI vovI oJ avl.
Hov Iave
ou
lvied lo
negoliale puIIic
and
pvivale nenov
in
ouv
ovn vovI?
BigIl
nov I an
Ieginning, vev pvivaleI,
lo adnil ov lo veIale lo
n
ovn
nenov. g.
4. JocIen Oevz and
EslIev SIaev-Oevz
Il is
pavl
oJ lIe Oevnan
pvocess, I
vIicI I nean
deaIing
vilI cIiIdIood. Youv
TIe
HavIuvg
Monunenl
Againsl Fascisn,
pvivale nenov
is a laIoo Iecause il vas
pavl
oJ vIal Iad lo Ie seen lo Ie 1986-93.
Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
O7FOBB ABT
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Inlevvieved
I)
Sinon BaIev
dvagged
oul oJ oIIivion and deniaI - lIe sIane and Iies lIal Iad lo Ie nade
puIIic.
Bul in lIis
pvocess
il vouId Iave Ieen JvivoIous lo laII
onI
aIoul
pevsonaI nenovies, lIe
Iad lo Ie sacviJiced lo lIe
Iavgev picluve. AcluaII,
ve
didn'l asI Jov
venenIvance,
lIe viclins did. Nov lIal lIe viclins Iave acIieved
lIe slalus oJ
puIIic nenov, naIe
il is
possiIIe.
I an nov
doing
a vovI in
BavceIona aIoul lIe Jivsl
puIIic IonIing
oJ a civiIian
popuIalion
in 1937 and in
lIis conlexl I Jound
nseIJ vviling
on a
piece
oJ
papev,
'I Iave Ieen IonIed loo'.
Il seened
cvaz
Iul lIal vas lIe Jivsl line lIal I daved lo venenIev.
Hov does lIal
vev pevsonaI
inlevaclion vilI
nenov
veIale lo lIe
inpovlance
oJ
lIe
poIilicaI
dinension vilIin lIe vovI?
In
Spain, sociel
nevev velvealed Jvon ils
Iislov
so lIeve
ou
Iave an
ongoing
navvalive Jvon Fvanco lo lIe
independence novenenl, lo lIe
vepuIIic,
lo
Euvope,
and il's lIe sane
peopIe
- lIeve Ias nevev Ieen a
NuvenIevg,
a cul-oJJ. So lIe
IonIing
in BavceIona vas
vev
veII Inovn in lIe TIivlies Iul il Iad since Ieen
pvaclicaII Jovgollen
Iecause lIe viclins,
as nucI as lIe
pevpelvalovs,
iJ
lIe
veve nol one and lIe
sane,
didn'l Iave an inlevesl in
laIIing
aIoul il. So lIeve
vas a diJJevenl silualion
aIlogelIev.
Il is an
aslounding exanpIe
oJ lIe
IeaIlIiness oJ vIal is
Iappening loda
nol
onI
in
Oevnan
and lIe Uniled
Slales Iul
evevvIeve. Hislov
needs lo vecovev
nenovies,
Iul
nodevnil
seens
al lIe sane line lo Ie
suggesling
lIal
Iislov
couId
dispense
vilI
nenov
Iecause il's loo aIslvacl.
Toda,
vilIoul
an
Iind oJ
advocac
ov
an
Iind oJ
pvessuve, oung peopIe
ave inlevesled in
queslions
oJ IislovicaI
nenov.
AIlIougI
sone cIain lIal il's a
poIilicaI
novenenl
ou
can'l
veaII sa lIis,
il is
nol a
poIilicaI
novenenl. TIeve's no
poIilicaI
consciousness. FoIilics is nov
sonelIing lolaII
aulIovIess and lIe
poIilicians
ave
Iaving
a Iavd line
lving
lo
pIa
'aulIov'. Il seens lIal lIeve is an eIenenl in lIe
genevaI
audience oJ
denocvac
lIal no
Iongev
vanls lo Ie lIe
audience,
il vanls lo Ie
sonelIing
nove IiIe an
aulIov, cIosel
aulIovsIip.
I see il in lIe sane
va
in lIe avls. TIeve
is a connission naIe a vovI oJ avl aIoul lIe Jivsl civiI
IonIing
in
Euvope.
I lvied
lo Jind
peopIe
vIo veve in Javouv oJ il: evevIod
vas
niIdI
in Javouv oJ il. I lvied
lo Jind
peopIe
vIo veve
againsl il: evevIod
vas
niIdI againsl
il loo. TIe
sociaIisls veve
againsl il,
lIe
vepuIIic
vas
againsl
il.
TIe sa
ils loo Iale,
lIe
IlaIians ave ouv
Jviends, Euvope
is ouv Jviend. Il's a
vev diJJevenl,
a nove nodevn
silualion Iul
jusl
Iecause
ou
don'l Iave
pavlisansIip, viclins, pevpelvalovs,
doesn'l nean lIal
sociel slops vovIing.
We can'l
sa
lIal lIeve is no nove
poIilics,
lIeve is no nove
lIeov. TIeov
is
going
lo
Iappen
and
poIilics
is
going
lo
Iappen,
ve
jusl
don'l Iave lIe aulIovs oJ
lIeov
ov
poIilics an
nove.
WIal Jovn did lIe connission laIe?
Il viII
Iappen
Iale in 2001. TIeve viII Ie sone Iind oJ avliJiciaI
nenov da, sixl-
Jive
eavs
aJlev lIe Jivsl
IonIing
in BavceIona il's aII JaIe.
So lIeve von'l Ie an
oIjecl?
OI
es,
lIeve viII Ie an
oIjecl,
lIeve viII Ie a IillIe IiII nade oul oJ lIe vuins oJ a
Iouse. Il viII Ie in lIe cenlve oJ lIe FIaza de Ia
Univevsilal,
a
vev Iavge, cIeav,
neal
space
in lIe cenlve oJ BavceIona. Fov lIe Jivsl lIvee
eavs
lIeve viII Ie a
IillIe
piIe
oJ
vuIIIe, IiIe lIe venains oJ a Iouse vilI loiIels ov vIalevev
poIing
oul, Iul aJlev lIvee
eavs
il viII Ie coveved in
gvass.
I vilnessed lIis
pvocess
al
lIe end oJ lIe
vav,
lIe
gvassing-ovev
oJ aII Iinds oJ vuIIIe.
MaIe
Iids viII use il
lo cvoss il
vev quicII
IiIe a IillIe IiII. Il is caIIed TIe HiII. In one
va
il's a
32 O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001
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JocIen
Oevz
disvuplion. NovnaII ou sa,
've Iave a
pavI
and nov ve viII naIe a
scuIpluve
lo
go
in il'. Nov ve Iave a
scuIpluve
lIal Iecones a
pavI
Iul lIe
pavI
is nol
veaII
a
pavI.
In
Euvope
lIe
pavI
is nol
naluve,
lIe
pavI
is cuIluve
|Fig. 5).
Hov vouId
ou
descviIe lIe
veIalionsIip
oJ
ouv
vovI lo ils audience?
Il's cIeav lIal soonev ov
Ialev, lIe
pvoduclion
oJ
anlIing
is veIaled lo
peopIe.
Fov
exanpIe,
Iasl sunnev
n
vovI Les Mols de Favis vas silualed in Jvonl oJ lIe
calIedvaI oJ Nolve Bane de Favis. I
engaged
lveIve IoneIess
peopIe
and
aIIoved
vvilevs, peopIe
Jvon lIealve and Jvon lIe visuaI avls lo vovI vilI lIen
so lIal
logelIev lIe
couId naIe a
pIace
lo coIIecl
none
Iul aIso Jov
discussion. I lIinI lIal
evevda 15,000 peopIe
cane lo lIal
pIace
and
pevIaps
10,000
sav lIe vovI so
I
lIe end oJ lIvee nonlIs lIeve vouId Iave Ieen a
Iuge
nunIev oJ vievevs
|Fig. 6). Hovevev,
I don'l lIinI lIal lIis is
necessaviI
lIe
opposile
oJ anolIev
pIace
vIeve
ou
Iave
ouv
usuaI lvo
pev
cenl oJ vIoevev
cones
I,
and vIoevev sees. TIeve is a
vigIl
oJ lIe
peopIe
nol lo see and il's
vev inpovlanl
lIese
das
Iecause inJovnalion is so
povevJuI.
I lIinI ils
vev
inpovlanl
nol lo Ie
inJovned,
nol lo
see, naIe
as
inpovlanl
as il once vas lo
Ie inJovned.
Bo
ou
Iave a
pveconceived
idea oJ lIe audience ov is lIis diJJevenl Jov eacI vovI?
In 1970 lIeve vas an avl
nagazine
lIal asIed avlisls lIe sane
queslion
and I
said lIal I considev lIal vIen I do a
lIing
in lIe slveel lIal I an a
guesl.
I
quoled
Avlaud vIo said lIal iJ
ou
vanl lo Iave inlevesl in lIe slveel
ou
Iave lo cone
vilI lanIs and IavIed vive. TIe
nagazine,
vIicI vas
vev
nucI aIoul
pavlicipalion
and conlviIulions
vvole,
'no connenl'. I lIinI lIal vovI sIouId Ie
unpvediclaIIe
in a
sociel
Iul il sIouId Ie vivuIenl. Il sIouId nean
sonelIing
even iJ il is a viddIe.
You Iave said lIal
ou
don'l
pvesune
lo leII
peopIe
vIal lo lIinI vIen
ou
cveale
a nonunenl Iul do
ou
naIe
assunplions
aIoul lIe cuIluvaI
InovIedge
ov
IislovicaI
expevience
oJ
ouv
audience?
WeII iJ
ou
do vovIs IiIe nine, IiIe lIe nonunenls
againsl
vacisn ov
againsl
Jascisn, ou
do lIen in
Oevnan
Iecause lIeve lIe issues exisl. Il's nol as
inpovlanl
lo naIe a vovI as lo
Ieep
a discussion
going.
A lvadilionaI vovI oJ
avl,
IiIe a slalue ov a cIassicaI nonunenl, Ias lIe
lendenc
lo
pul
discussion lo
vesl. I an inlevesled in cvealive
pvocesses
lIal enaIIe discussion. You don'l
need lo laII aIoul avl aII lIe line in ovdev lo Ie
Ieavd,
in ovdev lo Ie laIen inlo
accounl. We Iive in a
vev
cuIluved
sociel.
AJlev lIe vav, Oevnan
didn'l Iave
nan oplions,
il couIdn'l naIe
nan
connenovalions. An
inlinac
vilI
pvogvess coning
oul oJ lIe vounds Jovned
I
lIe
InovIedge
lIal cuIluve Iadn'l
pvevenled
lIe HoIocausl,
vas lIe
onI va
Jovvavd. Il vas
vev Jilling
lo
cIaIIenge sociel
vilI nolions oJ avl lIal veve nol JaniIiav lo
peopIe.
Sonelines
a discouvse is
going
on Iul
ou
don'l Ieav a vovd, ils IiIe a
laIoo, ou
Iave lo
unsellIe lIe slone and luvn il ovev and il's a
vev Iong pvocess.
WovIs IiIe lIis
can laIe
anlIing
Ielveen lIvee and len
eavs
lo
conpIele.
Is lIe idea oJ lIe vilness
inpovlanl
in veIalion lo lIe audience?
TIis is
inlevesling
and vivuIenl vilI
vespecl
lo lIe idea oJ lIe
veIalionsIip
oJ
viclin and
pevpelvalov.
WIo is lIe vilness? Is lIe vilness lIe
pevpelvalov,
ov is
lIe vilness lIe viclin? We Iave a
lendenc
lo Iecone nove and nove
conscious aIoul
lIings
Iul ve velveal nove and nove Jvon lIe
space
oJ lIe
O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001 33
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Inlevvieved Iv Sinon BaIev
'I
J
.
Fig.
5. JocIen Oevz
Conpulev genevaled inage
oJ lIe BavceIona
Fvojecl.
34 O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001
I*
I I*
4 _
O4
I
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JocIen Oevz
cvine. Il's as
lIougI
ve Iave a
Iuge
sladiun JuII oJ
speclalovs
Iul
ou
can'l
gel
a lean
logelIev
lo
pIa
Iecause il's loo
conpvonising
and loo
dangevous
lo
naIe a nislaIe. I an inlevesled in lIe nolion lIal ve Iave lo
JigIl
Jov a
posilion
oJ
vesponsiIiIil
and oJ evvov and lIal's nol
eas
in lIe conlexl oJ a vilness,
vIicI is nol a neulvaI
posilion |Fig. 7).
Hov
inpovlanl
ave lIe aeslIelic
pvopevlies
oJ lIe
oIjecl
in veIalion lo ils
JunclionaIil?
WeII, lIe sociaI envivonnenl
loda
is an envivonnenl oJ aeslIelicizalion. TIeve
Ias nevev Ieen an envivonnenl as oIsessed
I
aeslIelics as lIe
pvesenl
one.
Fig.
6. JocIen Oevz Les Mols de Favis, 2000.
|FIolo
FaoIo
CodeIuppi), Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001 35
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Inlevvieved
I
Sinon BaIev
TIeve is Iess and Iess diJJevence,
I nean a
pviovi diJJevence,
Ielveen avl and
'nol-avl', so
ou
can
sa
lIal avl Ias lIe sane looIs as non-avl,
IiIe
puIIicil,
connunicalion, inJovnalion, and so on. I lIinI lIe
queslion
oJ aeslIelics
loda
is
pevIaps
aIoul
naIing nseIJ
lIinI aIoul
non-vecognizaIiIil
in levns oJ
vIelIev
sonelIing
is avl. Cuvvenl veseavcI
suggesls
lIal vievevs
spend
an
avevage
oJ lvo seconds in Jvonl oJ an
inage.
WIen I naIe a vovI il
vequives
a
nucI
Iongev
allenlion
span
so I need anolIev
slvaleg.
Fov ne,
aeslIelic
queslions
ave
inpovlanl
Iul nol
necessaviI
ansveved undev lIe unIveIIa oJ avl.
Inslead I nisIead and I
nisguide
and I naIe lIe Jacl lIal il is avl nove secvel
lIan IeJove.
You said in lIe conJevence lIal
ou
veve oJJeved an
allvaclive, IeaJ
sile Jov lIe
HavIuvg
nonunenl Iul lIal inslead
ou
cIose sonevIeve lIal
ou
consideved lo
Ie nucI
vougIev,
Iess
congeniaI.
Ave lIe
genevaI quaIilies
oJ a sile
inpovlanl
in
deciding
on ils
appvopvialeness?
I vas oJJeved a
pavI,
Iul
evevIod
Inovs vIal's in a
pavI
avl. TIe inside
space
oJ lIe nuseun is lIe nuseun Iul oulside lIe
IuiIding
il is a
pavI.
So I
pul
lIe
vovI sonevIeve vIeve il doesn'l Iave line lo Ie avl, vIeve
nisundevslandings
ave
possiIIe,
vIeve evvov is
pavl
oJ lIe
appvoacI.
TIe aeslIelic is,
Jov ne, a IillIe
Iil IiIe
sleaIing
Jvon lIe
neigIIouvs
so I oJlen
enpIo
lIe aeslIelics oJ
puIIicil.
Fig. 7. JocIen Oevz
E7IT/MaleviaIien
zun BacIau-FvojeIl, 1972/1974, Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
36 O7FOBB ABT
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JocIen
Oevz
So
opevaling
vilI an anli-aeslIelic Jov lIe
HavIuvg nonunenl,
vas il lIen
inpovlanl
lo naIe lIe Jovn oJ lIe vovI veIevanl lo lIe sile?
In a
va
il Iad lo Ie
sonelIing
IiIe lIis Iecause lIe coIunn Iad lo
disappeav.
To
conpIele
lIe
pvocess ou
laIe inlo considevalion vIal naIes
ou veaII
lIinI
aIoul
disappeavance.
To naIe a
vev
convenlionaI coIunn
disappeav
vas IiIe an
allacI on ouv ovn
JvagiIil,
on vIal ve don'l vanl lo see. So lIeve ave diJJevenl
pavanelevs deJining
lIe
va
a vovI
IooIs,
ils visuaI
appeavance.
In a
va,
vIal
sonelines seens unusuaI lo vievevs aIoul a vovI oJ
avl,
is nonelIeIess lIe
vesuIl oJ JovnaI and lecInicaI decisions lIal ave
vev
novnaI. TIe
oIjecl
Iecones a
pIaev
in a
lean,
il doesn'l
aIvas
need lo Iecone lIe
onI
Jocus oJ
allenlion. TIe lexl is
vev
siniIav in lIal sense loo,
a lexl is a
vev oIjecl-ovienled
naniJeslalion. Il
nigIl Iappen
lIal one
da
lIe vovI is a nanuaI Iul in lIe visuaI
avls il venains
inpovlanl
lIal lIe
'lIing'
is aIso an
oIjecl.
Is
ouv
vovI
aIvas
lIe vesuIl oJ a connission?
UnliI lIe
eavI EigIlies,
vovIs in
puIIic space
veve
pevIaps
lIe nosl velavded
lpe
oJ avl
pvaclice.
Il vas as
lIougI
lIe
veccIing
oJ
nodevnil
Iad ovevlaIen
lIen and
painling, scuIpluve, inslaIIalion,
ov
pevJovnance
veve aII nove
advanced lIan coIIaIovalions Ielveen avcIilecls and avlisls. Bul
gvaduaII
in
Oevnan
a
pvell
viId
pvogvan
oJ
puIIic
avl
deveIoped.
TIis vas
pevIaps
Iecause
nan
cilies Iad an
inage pvoIIen.
TIese cilies
deveIoped
lIenes and
speciJic
connissions
I encouvaging
lIe avl vovId lo coIIaIovale vilI lIe
poIilicians. SIovI, lIvougI
lIis
pvaxis,
ov lIe
enIavgenenl
oJ lIis
pvaxis,
lIese
connissions Iecane lIenes ov Iecane issues Jov avlisls and avlisls
vesponded
lo lIese inilialives. AInosl lIe second vovI lIal I nade Jov a
puIIic space,
lIe SaavIvOcIen 2146 Slones
-
Monunenl
Againsl Bacisn, vas
nol a connission Iul a secvel vovI
|Figs.
8 &
9).
Il
vas,
as ve Jound oul
Ialev,
aIso an
iIIegaI
vovI. EacI vovI vedeJines
ouv posilion
and lIe
connissioning
pvocess
Ias Iecone nove and nove veJined ovev lIe
eavs
and I
aIvas sa
lIal
IaIJ oJ lIe vovI is in lIe
connissioning.
TIe
cvealivil
oJ a vovI and lIe
quaIil
oJ lIe vovI
depends upon
lIe connission.
Bo
ou
Iave a
pveconceived
nolion aIoul lIe vovI IeJove
ou Iegin,
ov do lIose
connissioning
lIe vovI Iave a
pveconceived
idea oJ vIal
ou nigIl do?
TIe
connissioning Iod,
ov lIe
juv,
vanl
ou
lo do
sonelIing. TIe
ave
pavlnevs
and il's
vev good
lo Iive in a vovId oJ
pavlnevs
and
conpelence.
WIelIev il's Jov lIvee
peopIe
ov
3,000 peopIe
is nol
veaII
lIe issue, Iul il's
inpovlanl
lo
inagine
lIal
ou
do
ouv
vovI Jov
soneIod,
sonevIeve. WilI lIe
vovI,
Les Mols de Favis,
I vovIed Jov Jive
eavs
lo connunicale and
puIIicize
lIe idea so I aInosl did lIe connissionev's
joI.
TIe connission cane IacI
and said
es,
Iul il aII slavled in a casuaI laII Ielveen a cuvalov and
nseIJ.
In
lIe sane
va,
I don'l lIinI aIoul Juluve vovIs lIal I vouId IiIe lo do Iul valIev
aIoul lIe
peopIe
vIo ave
going
lo asI ne lo do lIen and lIe
polenliaI
audience.
In lIe
pasl ou
Iave descviIed
poIilics
as one oJ lIe
pvinav
naleviaIs oJ
ouv
pvaclice.
Boes lIis venain lvue
loda
and Ias
ouv
conslvuclion oJ lIe
poIilicaI
cIanged?
IniliaII,
il seened lIal
poIilics
vas vIal olIev
peopIe
oved
ou
Iul nov il is
nove IiIe
poIilics
is
sonelIing
lIal
ou
ove olIev
peopIe.
You Iave lo
undevsland lIal vIalevev
ou do,
in levns oJ
cvilicizing sociel, ou
do
O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001 37
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Inlevvieved Iv Sinon BaIev
Figs.
8 & 9. JocIen Oevz 2146 Sleine - MaInnaI
gegen Bassisnus, SaavIvucIen, 1993.
Couvles
AleIiev Oevz.
sonelIing
lIal olIev
peopIe
viII soonev ov Ialev Ie aIIe lo cvilicize. Il's a
lvo-va
slveel and so lo
go
on lo lIinI and lo IooI and lo
go
on lo
do,
in
spile
oJ douIls
aIoul vIal
ou do,
is
pvell
diJJicuIl. You couId
sa
il ov
ou
couId lIinI aIoul il
Iul lo Ie as
slupid
as lo do il, lIal's a veaI decision.
38 O7FOBB ABT
JOUBNAL
24.2 2001
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All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
6E Io00o Z'- IYNInIOJ Iv aOIO Ixo
I
&-*--_- *_I
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