MSU RW

[0:00:00] Interviewer: Starting the recording. Thank you for being here and for making the time for this. To start off, could you tell me a bit about your mouse related research program?

Respondent: We are working on mitochondria. We're working on mitochondrial diseases and we're working on aging and the role of mitochondria dysfunction in aging. We are generating mice with [0:00:27] expressing proteins or locking down proteins to manipulate the mitochondrial DNA, that small mitochondrial genome to cause mitochondrial dysfunction and then study the effects on organ function. Interviewer: What is the source of your funding?

Respondent: It's the German Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft [0:00:52] which is something like the NIH which or the National Science Foundation, the most important and only source for funding in Germany. That's my source of funding. Then, we have a huge medical faculty and I'm at the medical faculty and we have intramural funding from funds of the faculty. Interviewer: Okay. Could you give me an idea of the scale and scope of your collaborations? With other groups?

Respondent: Interviewer:

Yes. Like which countries for example do you most collaborate with?

Respondent: We share mice with the recently founded Max Planck Institute for Biology of Ageing. These are the colleagues which came from Karolinska Institute from Stockholm. I mean, it was a collaboration which was started when they were still in Stockholm but now they are also in Cologne. And then I'm just importing mice from a colleague from Paris. We have strong connection to New Console [0:02:12] in Great Britain, that's a very important place for mitochondrial research especially the clinic [0:02:19] mitochondrial diseases and neurological disorders. And then there is Nihmegen [0:02:25] in the Netherlands which is also an important place for mitochondrial research. That's about it, and Munich in Germany. 1

Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer:

Munich, is that with the Helmholtz? No, with the university [0:02:42].

With the university, okay. Could you tell me a bit about the pros of using mice as model again as stems [0:02:50] in your work compared with other animal models or human materials.

Respondent: I'm a trained biologist. I'm working in a medical faculty and I've been working with mice for only a rather short time, something like six to seven years. I think, seven years ago when we had our first knockout mouse which we got from other people in the lab and I was working with cultured [0:03:16] cells from patient material before. I think everything which has been investigated in cell culture [0:03:26] in many, many things which has been investigated in cell culture are probably simply artifacts of cell culture [0:03:32]. Everything which one has to -which one would like to, well, to extrapolate to the living situation one has to study the whole organism. But since I'm working on a new medical faculty, for me, mouse is the most obvious option. I appreciate people working with yeast [0:03:52] and several fish and [0:03:54] and [0:03:56] for example also especially in the ageing field. The [0:04:00] and [0:04:02] works extremely important and to show the basis of the ageing process. But I mean -- at the end of the day, you have to check whatever you found out, whether this plays any role in [0:04:16] and then you have to make a mouse. Interviewer: Absolutely. It's the old distinction between enrichment and weevil [0:04:21]. Yeah. But are there any challenges of using mice? What do you mean challenges?

Respondent: Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer:

Well, one common criticism of using mice from the other side, people who don't use, is that they are not humans and --

Respondent: But they are the most closest when [0:04:39] one can get. They are most closest to human. Of course, one could work with rhesus monkeys but that's too expensive and also ethically, it's forbidden. And I mean [0:04:52] especially for my field, ageing, one may say that mice are living in a nonnatural environment in 2

their cages but we in our industrialized countries, we are not living in the natural conditions. So we are living like the mice. We get food as much as we want and drink and we don't freeze and we don't have any parasites. So I think mice are fine. It's the best we can do. [0:05:17] Interviewer: Absolutely. Yup.

Respondent: But one has to realize that what one finds in a mouse may not be true for humans but then okay, this has to be then checked later. Interviewer: Yeah. Have you yourself ever made a mouse line or more than that? Yeah.

Respondent: Interviewer:

What happened to it? What cause or action did you take with it?

Respondent: We made it three years ago and it's a tissue-specific knocked in of the dominant negative mutation. A knock in and then replay in [0:05:55]. So in addition to the wide-fied [0:05:56] protein, we have a dominant negative protein which then damages the mitochondrial DNA. We use this mouse line now to study very different organs. We have now five lines and we are going to expand that and just produce mitochondrial DNA damage in every important organ system in the mouse body as you can think of. We get very, very surprising results. Interviewer: So you generated the line for the uses [0:06:24] within your own research program.

Respondent: Right. I'm going to give it away as somebody approaches me. So we're going to publish the first paper on this mouse very soon and when people ask me to help, if they want to have this mouse line, to fiddle around with mitochondrial DNA in an organ, what I would say, in the cell fibers [0:06:48] I know nothing about that. That it is just far away from my expertise and I will be very happy to share it. Interviewer: What about commercializing, for example, patenting it or selling it in any other way? 3

Respondent: I didn't start thinking about that. I mean, I don't even know how the process works to send, to give it to the Jackson Lab [0:07:14] but of course, at some point I would start to finding out what I have to do and how important that is and whether this gives me any advantage. Patenting, I don't think this can be patented because it's an approach which is not so unique and there are other mouse models over expressing proteins damaging the mitochondrial DNA. I haven't thought about it but maybe I should. It's a good idea. I should contact my Patent Officer next week and ask. It's a good idea but I don't think so. Interviewer: Well, no, I didn't mean to plant the idea. It's just a question because it's quite heavily emphasized out in America to patent mouse lines, right? I'm just wondering if it's different in Europe and what the approach of your research funding body is in this regard.

Respondent: Yes. Palomino University [0:08:09] asked us to tell them if we think we have something then they will check it and then if the university finds it appropriate they would then take all the cost and would then also take a large part of the benefit but if they decide it's not patented, well, not worthwhile, I mean then many people say okay, then I'm not going to do it on my own pocket because if they are patent lawyers, they know this is nothing which we can make profit from and probably they are right and probably it's just a waste of money and energy because it's taking a lot of energy. I had a patent for a while but it was for a scientist. It's just a no-go because it's so boring to write obvious text and it's very, very tedious. So I would not go for it if I'm not 100% sure that I would make money with that. Interviewer: That does not move, [0:09:10] yeah. For sure. You described to me that you would give the mouse away, the line that you developed. Otherwise, do you respond to request for mouse-related materials from you? Has there ever been a time, for example, when you've turned a request on?

Respondent: When I turned it over -- I considered the first mouse line. I didn't have a request yet. I mean, we could talk about cell lines which we generated and I gave them away to other people. I'm sure that's what I will do with the mouse lines as well. But of course only if people are not claimed to do an experiment and breed them with a cre line of which I had in mind. Interviewer: Could you elaborate on that a bit please? 4

[0:09:58] Respondent: Let's say if somebody would use this mouse line to damage mitochondria DNA in lymphocytes or in T cells, I know nothing about the immune system because I think the immune system is so extremely complicated. Either you are an immunologist or you just don't follow it because that's old and just not really professional. So if somebody would ask me for a mouse line to do it in for an immune cell type, then I would give it away just like nothing. If somebody would ask me because he would like to damage mitochondria DNA in liver, probably I would say no because maybe I would like to do that in two or three years when we have published all the other mouse line because then I will feel [0:10:49] comfortable enough to interpret the results myself. Interviewer: Of course. Do you do this with an MTA then you have shared materials?

Respondent: Yeah. I mean, our university does that. This is -- I mean, Germany is actually competitive state [0:11:09]. We are way, way behind but we are doing -- we have now an officer responsible for that and maybe five years, I'm not sure all the big universities had this in 20 years which is helping very much too [0:11:25]. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, almost [0:11:28] of the section on sourcing materials, that means from where you get the mouse materials that you work with. From where do you primarily source materials and what form do they come to you?

Respondent: Again, I'm not so sure whether I'm really the best partner because I just started to work with mice a few years ago. While other people have ten mouse lines in their lab, we only have three and now by close [0:11:57] breeding them with cross -with different cre lines we generate different chromosomes [0:12:03] but the basil [0:12:04] mouse lines, there's only three mice. One I got from the European Mouse Mutant Archive (EMMA) and so I got them from them, and one which I got from Karolinska Institute in Stockholm and the other one is the one which I will now import from Paris. Interviewer: Did you have any interesting experiences when you were trying to get the mice? For example, like if you see the questionnaire, I'm just thinking of difficulties like MTAs, any timing issues, administrative holdups? 5

Respondent: Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer:

No. I'm glad to hear that. Yup. Perfect [0:12:47].

Sometimes people have those challenges so I thought it's just worthwhile [0:12:52] to ask what happens.

Respondent: But then this mouse, this EMMA mouse -- are you still there? Interviewer: Yeah, I am.

Respondent: Because there was a strange sound in the line. This EMMA mouse line didn't work properly. I mean, they sent us embryos and we implanted those embryos, frozen embryos and we implanted them and we never got mice. The service was bad. I'm very sure it was not our facility because our facility is doing this routinely all the time. I mean, they have some failure rate but it's very, very low. I'd rather think that this was not -- the embryos were not working well. That's a bad experience. I told them and they were very upset because of course that's not -- that casts a bad reputation on this European Archive. Interviewer: Did they offer to do something to rectify the situation?

Respondent: Well, I mean, I didn't have to pay for it. It was a free offer for European scientists and that's why I didn't complain because it cost me really nothing. Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Well, that's a pity that happened. Yeah, but then I got the mice from somebody else. Could you tell me from whom else did you get the mice?

Respondent: Those mice then I got from Frankfurt, from the University of Frankfurt. Interviewer: Was that from a collaborator?

Respondent: From a collaborator -- well, I mean, people just gave it to me [0:14:31] a colleague which I know very well, also a bad mouse line. 6

Interviewer:

Okay. That's good to hear. Have you ever had any trouble -- I know that you have not worked for a very long time with mice but six or seven years is a decent amount of time. Have you ever had any problems dealing with commercial suppliers?

[0:14:52] Respondent: No, because I didn't import yet. I bought some mice from Genoway [0:15:01] which is a European company and they sold old mice, very old mice, something like 18 months old, heavily extensive [0:15:11] and that was the only time when I bought a mice from them. I think our animal facility, our central -- I will change a room. We have a family meeting here today. So I'm at home. This is my home phone number. But just let me go to another floor. So what did we talk about? Interviewer: We were talking about your experience with commercial mouse suppliers.

Respondent: Yeah, with Genoway [0:15:41]. I know that our animal facility, our central animal [0:15:46], if I want a BL/6J [0:15:50] male six months old, they will then buy it from, I don't know. I don't even know where they buy it from. Probably, we have despondence [0:16:03] from Jackson in Europe or we have Harlan or there's Genoway [0:16:08]. There are few commercial suppliers who supply inbred [0:16:12] mouse line. But I don't deal with that. This is done by our animal facility. Interviewer: Now in your experience and over the last few years, what do you think has been the biggest challenge you have had in getting mice? The biggest difficulty you faced?

Respondent: Just importing them and then the embryos and they didn't work. Of course, there's one big challenge, taking in the [0:16:46] status of the mice because every mouse has its own collection of microbes, of parasites and whatever and they're all harmless and it's completely normal that a mouse is not sterile. But then you want to know with this mouse which I import from Paris, I mean, it took a long time to find out in which of our animal facilities I could import that one sitting more or less the microbes [0:17:15] of the mice. This is a big problem that is of course worldwide. Every animal house facility will have its own spectrum of mouse pathogen. Veterinarians are very nervous 7

about that which of course I understand but this is an issue to challenge. Interviewer: Anything else with customs issues or shipping holdups or anything like that?

Respondent: No. I mean, the pain in the neck is that it's so extremely expensive. I mean, this will be something like 1,000-worth [0:17:51] for mice to import them from Paris to Cologne which is a three hours drive, four hours drive. I mean, this is ridiculous. I think the people who transport -- transporters, they make a lot of money. A lot and we have to pay unfortunately because there's no other option. I'm thinking of going there by car and pick it up myself. Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer: Probably which you go [0:18:18]. And spend the night in Paris which is a beautiful city. And there you go. It's a game. Yeah, but it's not allowed. It would be illegal. Oh yeah, really? Why?

Respondent: Yeah. It would be against the animal whatever because with animal transportation, it's protected [0:18:35] and if done by all [0:18:37] and that the mice don't suffer, et cetera. I'm sure they will not suffer because I will take care very much of them because I really need them for my work. Interviewer: Yeah. But they'll only allow the official agency to take care of it [0:18:49]. Yeah. Right.

Respondent: Interviewer:

Moving on to the third section about the utility of the IKMC and the IMPC resources, I'm just wondering, have you heard about the IKMC and the IMPC before you got the survey call? No.

Respondent: Interviewer:

Okay. So I had some questions about -- if you have had the chance to go with a bit of background information that I offered about the IKMC and the IMPC and these resources that have been developed, they're all noncommercial resources. What's 8

your opinion of the -- do you have any opinion of the utility and the quality of these resources? Respondent: That is great. I mean, it's great. The thing is we would have a worldwide net of exchange routes, of cre lines, and [0:19:37] lines. That would make life so much easier. Of course, good databases, good centralized databases have to be there and I think then mice would become much, much easier. I mean, there are already many ways and in Europe, there's something, actually have it in the States, [0:19:57] there's a center where you can buy ES cells, randomly mutagenized ES cells and so if I want to make a mouse with a knockout of the protein, a simple knockout, then I could check whether in this ES cell collection they just have it and then for a very little money, not very little but for relatively little money, I can simply get the ES cells which gives me then [0:20:26] an important step, producing my own ES cells and I think one could even have service that they implant with all their knowledge and all their routine. They implant the ES cells and then you get the mouse. [0:20:41] Interviewer: Yeah.

Respondent: I mean all this is extremely important since I consider mouse work extremely important. Everything which would make our lives easier and make the decision to do an experiment which means make a mouse, make another mouse and then cross them which is something -- long-term goal, takes a little time, it's very expensive, if nothing comes out, it's a complete disaster. Interviewer: What do you think are the main obstacles to the long term sustainability of these big resources? I mean, for example, a bigger role of funding which is always an issue and then infrastructure, legal impediments. Do you have any thoughts on these?

Respondent: Well, of course, somebody has to take the initiative from all these. The initiative has been taken. I think as people pay the fees, appropriate fees, then I don't see a reason why they have to be funded. It should work -- you just sell mice or embryos or whatever. As many people are using the same facility, then it shouldn't plague [0:22:02] any taxpayer's money at some point or maybe I'm nave, I don't know. I don't know how expensive that would be. 9

Interviewer:

In an ideal world, it would probably work. But do you have any thoughts on what stops people from using these facilities and resources?

Respondent: No. I wouldn't have any problems. So what's been -- can you tell me? What stops people? Interviewer: My personal thoughts are, well, for example, people haven't heard about it. So if you don't know that it's there, how will you use it?

Respondent: That's bad. There has to be -- there's [0:22:39] a marketing. Interviewer: Yeah. I was thinking, what do you think is better marketing? It would be really good to know. I mean, honestly, I would really like to know from you because I would be communicating that to people in Canada, for example, who work in NorKOM.

Respondent: Yes. I mean, emails are -- that's the only way you can do it. And of course, everybody gets too many emails and so many, many emails you simply click away. So you just have to -[0:23:09] producers mark emails and they look, "Do you know that this is noncommercial and we're not making money with that and we're doing this for the mouse community?" That's the only thing which you can do or you go to big meetings, to the big Boeing [0:23:28] conferences and the big [0:23:29] meetings or whatever meetings where people are who -- and you just place a slide -- when the sessions begin you place a slide, "Did you hear about our facilities where you can get your mice and why not contact us?" or something like that. But at Cologne [0:23:48] you shouldn't commercialize it like a company because, I mean, that would be a lot of -- probably it would be very expensive and would take away a lot of resources which you could better spend for running the facility and having as many mice as possible. Interviewer: Yeah. Have you ever looked into the IP policies of these consortia from those links that were in the survey?

Respondent: Not really. I gave this to our Law Department. I hate reading these kinds of things. I just gave it and we have a very good department and they read it and then I'm just importing a chemical, a drug which is commercially available, which is given 10

to patients. I'm trying to get it from the company, from the farmer company [0:24:41] which is producing it and a very, very interesting experience because they sent an MTA and then our lawyer said, "Oops, there's a part that [0:24:50] you sent me to see which would really make it not impossible but difficult for you to publish your data as fast and as easily as you want." And then there was a three-month back and forth of communication between our law department and their department. And then it was not -- so something like this of course I would expect with some commercial mouse distributors when may have some obstacles like that. [0:25:23] Interviewer: Yeah. Well yeah, it's definitely something to remember, isn't it? What in your opinion as somebody working in academics is the right balance between commercializing and open access? [0:25:42]

Respondent: I would say everything, every material which has been produced by taxpayer's money has to be stored somehow and available open access and commercially available should things only be which are created and generated by companies. I've never imported a mice from Jackson but I heard that it's very expensive so I probably -- I will have to do that next year and I'm not sure whether this is a good thing because I mean, when I give my mice to them -- so what happens if I give my mice to them? Do I get money from them? Interviewer: I'm not really sure how it works, to be honest.

Respondent: As far as I know, I don't. I mean, I give them to them and then they commercialize it and of course they send them out and the transportation costs are high but all this, I mean again, everything which has been done, every material which has been produced by taxpayer's money, I should not pay a high price again with taxpayer's money. That's what I'm saying. Interviewer: As far as I understand it, if you deposit in Jackson, the line you deposited will be made available to other researchers and it's not legally complicated like there isn't an enormous MTA. It's just simply Conditions of Use but about the exact cost and fees, I'm yet to compile the figures on those so I can get those back to you at [0:27:15] later date.

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Now moving on to the question of contributing members, when researchers contribute to buy resources and databases, so as we just spoke about Jackson and what you plan to find out over there, but have you ever deposited to other repositories, other databases? Respondent: Have I ever deposited anything to some? No. No stem lines, no. No. I think. Interviewer: Do you plan to look into it for the line that you are currently working on for example?

Respondent: If I would look for cre lines, I look at the internet site of Jackson that's in [0:28:06] Harlan of whether they would have a cre line which I would like to have. But then I would always ask a colleague first and try to share it and not to pay the fees. Interviewer: What do you think would encourage researchers such as yourselves to send materials and data to these resources?

Respondent: If I know that this is an important contribution to the whole community. Interviewer: Yeah.

Respondent: Or getting money. Not money for my pocket but money which I can spend in my lab. Something like a small grant, that could be a way to. But do you think there's lack of -- doesn't people keep things and don't give them away freely? Interviewer: It depends on the situation, right? I mean, it's not like everybody has the same set of difficulty. Some people just don't have enough people to handle the issue of sending something out. Yeah, that's true.

Respondent: Interviewer:

And for example, have you faced personnel challenges, I mean personnel like there's [0:29:18] not enough people in the office to just process this stuff?

Respondent: Our University is excellent in that case. That's because this university is really, really working well since a few years. Interviewer: That's good to know. Some people have had that problem for example. It's just about time and people and just not having 12

the time to send it out and not knowing where to send it out too as well. Respondent: Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't know how I have to do that but we have people which I simply could ask and then they will tell me what to do and then they will just take care of it but I'm sure not many universities in Germany will be as well-equipped as ours and the other big ones like [0:30:14] or Heidelberg [0:30:14] or Berlin. [0:30:16] Interviewer: The risk of doing what is called a leading question, I'm going to say this. Suppose for example that you are writing a funding application and the funder said, "Can you give me the cell line numbers, accession numbers, and the repositories where you deposited them?" and it was indicated, that's a good thing for the grant application. Would that --? I don't get it. Okay. I don't get it. I'll explain that again. It was a little complicated. I'm sorry. Are you ever asked in your grant application reports even you're making a grant application or in your midterm reports, are you asked if you deposited materials or data somewhere? Respondent: No. If I am asked. There is a question, the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft [0:31:05] they do ask but it's not really important. I mean, they don't care whether you answer that or not. It's not really important. Nobody really cares. Interviewer: Hypothetically, if the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft [0:31:26] really did make it important, then would that push or persuade people to deposit and send stuff?

Respondent: Interviewer: Respondent: Interviewer:

Respondent: Yes. I mean, if they would convince me that -- the argument would be, "Look, we give you money, taxpayer's money. You produce material. Then you are off -- you are pushed. You should then deposit this material at company or whatever A, B or C because those are the ones who will then distribute this with relatively little cost to the community but I 13

would hesitate to do that if I would have to give my material to some company which then makes money with it. Interviewer: Yeah. Sure. Can you give me an idea of what information you generally provide to, for example, the Deutche [0:32:25] in your materials management plans?

Respondent: We don't have that. We are very lucky. We have to do things like that if we apply to the European Commune [0:32:38] which is a pain in the neck because then the applications designs are not so important. It's just filling out forms is more important. Many people reject and don't apply for EU grant anymore because it's so much stupid work which one simply doesn't want to do. But Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft [0:32:57] is very uncomplicated, very unbureaucratic and they simply don't do that. It's not an issue. I mean, maybe this is not very professional. Maybe that's the reason why there is no international lab of material exchange. Maybe this is the way to squeeze it, to really push it. Interviewer: Yeah. That's a really good sight [0:33:23] for sure. Moving on to the penultimate section on animal welfare, ethics and best practice, my questions here are not being asked as an ethicist because I'm not one. They're just being asked because I'm just interested in practice, that's all. What are the institutional policies on animal welfare and practices with animal care especially with respect to mice?

Respondent: Oh, they are very, very strict. They're very strict and the authorities which are supervising us, obviously, they have been told that too many mice are killed in Germany for scientific reasons and so they are extremely strict making as we have to apply to them. Before you start to do it, your experiments, before you start to do your mice and then even producing a mouse which is then born with a genetic defect which may be harmful for the mouse, before you do that, you have to apply and you have to tell this Ethic Committee [0:34:26] that you're going to do that and then you have to write a long, long, long application and you have to explain to them why you think this is an important experiment for mankind and for the world and basic research. It's a very tedious process, very, very tedious. You get it back and they ask you questions and you send it again and you get it back again and you So they are making our lives a little bit tedious. [0:34:55] 14

I agree that it's important that they are there because scientists, if they are not supervised, they would maybe sometimes do things which shouldn't be done just for the -- because just for them -- because they are so eager to understand something and of course to get it published and to get the next fund, whatever. The system is just -- that would be very dangerous. It's good that we are supervised but in Germany, it's not an easy situation and it's getting worse at the moment. In the whole Europe it's getting worse because there is -- all the countries of Europe have to equalize with the European Communion Law [0:35:39] and the European Communion Law [0:35:41] is very, very animal welfare-friendly. Our conditions are getting more difficult. Interviewer: Yeah. I was just thinking, funding, there's always a very tight funding timeline. What's the gap between the amount of time it takes in the animal welfare process and the funding? How do the two things affect each other?

Respondent: Six months to one year so I have to plan ahead very, very well. When I'm writing a grant application which then takes about half a year to be approved. I better have started six months before to write my animal application. So that's a pain in the neck because maybe you write something and you have the permission to do the experiment and then the funding agency tells you, you don't get the money for it. Interviewer: Oh yeah. I can appreciate how difficult that must be. Could you give me an idea, the practical process for the delivery of mice? When the mice arrive and they're going to the facility, how does that process take place? I mean, who handles that?

Respondent: The animal [0:37:05] and the professional animal keepers. They would take them and then if they are from another source, if they are not from our own facilities, they would go into some quarantine first for a few days and they will watch them if they are healthy. I mean, we only can import mice with a health certificate which is a form which is European right [0:37:36]. It's a standardized certificate. Sometimes our veterinarians say, "No, you cannot import these mice from this place because they have microbes which don't fit into any of our facilities." Then, that's it. So they come in and then they get into cell quarantine and then they look at whether [0:38:00] they're sick or they are not sick, then they are fine and then you can import them into your facility. 15

Interviewer:

And does anyone ever come by to enforce animal welfare and to check if everything is being done by the rules.

Respondent: Yes. There's a veterinarian which is paid by the city of Cologne. She is the veterinarian of the city of Cologne and she's taking care of the zoo. If she's taken care of, I don't know. She's taking care of -- she's responsible for animal welfare around everywhere in the city. I don't know whether she also takes care of the chicken being squeezed into small places to lay eggs. I'm not sure whether she's responsible for that too. Interviewer: Is this single person doing everything on her own?

Respondent: Probably not, no. Probably this person is just responsible for experimental animals and then I know that she's responsible for the zoo. We have a big zoo here in Cologne. Interviewer: Yes, very well-known one. I think that kind of covers everything that I had to talk about. It's been really great. In the future, I will be in touch with you with the report, summaries and peer reviewed -- I'll send around the links for the papers that might come out of this. Okay. That's fine with me.

Respondent: Interviewer:

It's been really great and I'll just piss [0:39:24] so she'll have the recorder now. Okay.

Respondent:

[0:39:27] End of Audio

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