Enlightening the Constitutional Debate

The fourth in a series of discussion events to enlighten the public debate on Scotlands constitutional future.

The Real Economy

20 June 2013 at the Royal Society of Edinburgh Introduc on The public discussion seminar on the Real Economy was the fourth in a series of seminars aimed at enlightening the debate around Scotlands cons tu onal future. The Real Economy refers to aspects of the economy besides banking, currency and nancial and monetary policy. This seminar examined Scotlands global reputa on and a rac veness as a trade and business des na on, Scotlands energy market, and Scotlands labour market, and how these might be aected by cons tu onal change. This seminar aimed to bring new perspec ves into the debate on Scotlands cons tu onal future. The subject of The Real Economy was addressed by a panel of four speakers: Mr Brandon Malone, Chairman, Sco sh Arbitra on Centre;

Mr Stephen Boyd, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Campaigns Department, Sco sh Trades Union Congress; Professor Gordon Hughes, Professor of Economics, University of Edinburgh; and Professor Jeremy Peat OBE FRSE, Director of the David Hume Ins tute.

The discussion was chaired by Mr Douglas Fraser, Business and Economic Editor, BBC Scotland.

The seminar was conducted as an open, public discussion seminar. This report provides a summary of the posi ons outlined by the speakers, and of the subsequent discussion. Mr Brandon Malone, Chairman, Sco sh Arbitra on Centre of taxa on and spending. He proposed to look at the wider picture, and to focus on Scotlands branding, PR and promo on.

Mr Malone suggested that, with reference to the Real Economy, the decision to vote Yes or to vote No in the Sco sh Independence Referendum would not be made on the basis of accoun ng issues. He therefore proposed to examine the business case for independence. Mr Malone began by observing that much of the debate about Scotlands future has centred on the no on of risk; for example, the poten al risk of Sco sh independence to aspects such as Scotlands global compe veness, to Sco sh pensions, to Scotlands membership of the EU, etc. In business, however, risk tends to be associated with reward, and taking calculated risks is an integral part of business decision making. He acknowledged that there are risks associated with Sco sh independence, but suggested that the ques on to ask is not whether there are risks, but whether the poten al reward outweighs these risks. Mr Malone briey referred to the fact that Sco sh independence would enable the Sco sh Government to have more scal levers available to it, but he did not wish to focus on the issue

Addressing the issue of branding rst, Mr Malone suggested that UK branding is slightly confused, with the na ons of the UK opera ng under several dierent brands; for example Great Britain, the UK and the na onal brands of each na on (England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland). He suggested that the interna onal percep on of Scotland as a na on with its own dis nct and unique iden ty suers as a result of this, with Scotland being subsumed by the UK brand. Mr Brandon referred to his work as a solicitor and suggested that when trying to promote Scotland as a des na on for interna onal arbitra on, he is o en called upon to explain to people that Scotland has its own dis nct legal system. He suggested that interna onally there is a lack of understanding about what Scotland is, but indicated that since the Sco sh Referendum has been announced, there has been greater global awareness of Scotland as a unique and dis nct en ty. He argued that it is only through the a ainment of independent statehood that the problems around Scotlands branding will be resolved.

On the subject of Scotlands global PR, Mr Malone suggested that Scotlands global reputa on is suering as a result of the UK inten on to hold a referendum on EU membership. Mr Malone suggested that the Sco sh Government is more pro-European than the UK Government, and pointed out that the UK Independence Party (UKIP) has so far made no progress in Scotland. He made the point that interna onal percep ons of Scotland are coloured by UK foreign policy. Turning nally to the ques on of how Scotland is promoted abroad, Mr Malone observed that, at the UK level, this promo on is undertaken by the Foreign and Commonwealth Oce (FCO). He referred to a document en tled Plan for Growth1 produced by the UK Government, purpor ng to promote UK legal services interna onally, but observed that the original document referred to the supremacy of English contract law, which is dierent from Sco sh contract law. He argued that this demonstrates a tendency to conate UK law with English law, and in par cular with the London legal scene. The document was subsequently revised, but Mr Malone suggested that it is s ll heavily focused on London and the English legal system, and promotes English lawyers over Sco sh lawyers.

aliated. He added that trade union density in Scotland is higher than for the UK as a whole. In rela on to the performance of the Sco sh labour market, Mr Boyd observed that it has performed well since devolu on, rela ve to the UK and by interna onal standards. Scotland has maintained rela vely high employment levels, but does suer from long-standing regional unemployment, as well as high levels of low-paid work and high levels of under-employment. Mr Boyd suggested that some of these, and other, nega ve labour market trends were apparent before the recession began in 2008, and asked what might happen with regard to these trends as Scotland and the UK move towards recovery. He suggested that these nega ve labour market trends will have to be addressed, especially if the aspira ons of the Yes campaign in Scotland for the Sco sh economy are to be achieved.

Summing up, Mr Malone concluded that brand confusion, nega ve PR and confusion in promo ng Scotland could all be eliminated by Sco sh independence. He added that Independence presents an opportunity for Scotland to manage its own PR interna onally, to showcase Sco sh business without caveat, and to create a world capital in Edinburgh. Mr Stephen Boyd, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Campaigns Department, Sco sh Trades Union Congress Mr Boyd addressed the issue of the labour market, and suggested that this is an area which has so far not been discussed as part of the debate on Scotlands cons tu onal future. Mr Boyd observed that the economy is aected by how the labour market func ons. He added that the labour market is also highly relevant to some of the issues that have been at the forefront of the cons tu onal debate; for example, op ons for a currency union, which is heavily inuenced by labour force mobility, as well as policy around taxa on. Mr Boyd suggested that tackling inequality has been a key theme of the cons tu onal debate. He pointed out that inequality at the Sco sh level cannot be tackled unless and un l inequali es in the labour market are tackled. Mr Boyd observed that in spite of its relevance, the only aspect of the labour market which has been addressed by either side of the cons tu onal debate is pensions, but that even this area has not been addressed in a very enlightened way. Mr Boyd observed that the labour market is a complex en ty. Recent sta s cs on the Sco sh labour market have been reasonably posi ve rela ve to the rest of the UK, and the Sco sh labour market is highly integrated with the rest of the UK. The Sco sh labour market is lightly regulated, and has labour market ins tu ons which are UK-wide and/or UK-

Mr Boyd turned to the ques on of what Sco sh independence might entail with regard to the labour market. He suggested that it is dicult to discern a ra onale for devolving labour markets under enhanced devolu on, but observed that independence is an en rely dierent ma er. He suggested that a newly independent Sco sh Government might want to do as li le as possible to upset the levels of integra on between Sco sh and UK labour markets. On the other hand, it may wish to shi towards a model more aligned with that of small European na ons, for example the Nordic na ons to which Scotland o en compares itself. Mr Boyd addressed the ques on of what this might look like. He observed that, contrary to popular belief, Nordic labour markets are not heavily regulated, only slightly more so than the UK. Instead these labour markets are characterised by high trade union density and wide collec ve bargaining coverage. Nordic na ons invest massively in European labour market programmes, as compared with the UK, which invests very li le as a propor on of GDP. Unemployment insurance in the Nordic states is amongst the most generous in the world, and signicantly more generous than that in the UK. Given this very dierent environment, Mr Boyd posed the ques on: How might an independent Scotland begin to move towards this model?

Responding to this ques on, he observed that the Sco sh Government has recently published its economic case for independence, which introduced into the debate some issues around the labour market. Mr Boyd observed that, within this document, there are demonstra ons of a shi towards a system of centralised bargaining mechanisms like those of the Nordic states. This proposal included introducing mechanisms to formalise the rela onship between Government, employer organisa ons and employee associa ons. Mr Boyd indicated surprise at how li le response this proposal has generated, given that it could have a profound impact on the Sco sh economy and the labour market. He suggested that the challenges involved in bringing about a shi towards centralised bargaining mechanisms are significant. He pointed out that bargaining structures are part of the cultural and historic fabric of socie es, and are therefore not

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easily changed by Government ac on. While the social and cultural condi ons exist in Nordic states to allow social partnerships to ourish, the same is not true of Scotland, which has no recent history of successful bargaining mechanisms. He added that social partnerships in Scotland are weak and that the employer side of these partnerships is fragmented and unrepresenta ve. Mr Boyd referred to a recent report by Michael Hesel ne which stresses that the way employer organisa ons in the UK are set up is detrimental to the policy development process, and recommends establishing a mechanism closer to the European Chamber model. Mr Boyd also observed that the way Government in Scotland is set up is not conducive to social partnerships. He argued that there is a capacity issue; the ins tu onal infrastructure does not exist to support a move towards more formal styles of social partnerships. Discussing next steps, Mr Boyd suggested that there is not likely to be much consensus for reform of the current structure, observing that the UK exible labour market has very widespread poli cal support and sugges ng that any ini a ve for heavier monitoring of social partnerships is likely to face strong opposi on.

For those numbers to con nue, Professor Hughes observed, there has to be a large con nuing ow of investment, and this investment has to come in a variety of forms. Scotland therefore faces a need to maintain a con nuous ow of investment back into the sector. This is a major lesson which many countries with large energy sectors have ignored, he observed. Professor Hughes provided the example of Norway to illustrate this point. The crucial feature of Norway is that it has a state-owned oil company; Stat Oil, and has ploughed back a very large share of the earnings back into Stat Oil. A contrary case is PeMex in Mexico. The lesson to be taken from this example is that an economy with a large energy sector cannot consume the investment required to keep this sector going. Energy na ons must therefore make a choice between using the benets of the energy sector for enjoyment in the future, or consuming the revenue earned by this sector today and foregoing what those benets might be worth in the future. The more that is consumed now, the lower the incomes that can be generated by the sector in the future will be. The major challenge, Professor Hughes observed, is in ge ng the balance between these two op ons right.

Concluding his discussion of labour market issues, Mr Boyd observed that signicant change is required to address some of the problems of the Sco sh labour market, and suggested that it is incumbent upon both sides of the cons tu onal debate to present their arguments for how they would address these issues and bring about the required change. He added that the way people are treated in work on a daily basis has to be a part of the debate about Scotlands cons tu onal future. Professor Gordon Hughes, Professor of Economics, University of Edinburgh

Professor Hughes proposed to focus on the energy sector, as a key aspect of the Real Economy. He pointed out that the energy sector in Scotland is large and will, in a variety of ways, be central to any prospect for an independent Scotland.

Professor Hughes observed that, according to Sco sh Government gures, the gross value added (GVA) by the energy sector in Scotland is around 15% of Sco sh GDP, with this gure varying from year to year depending on the oil price. However, he suggested that if all of the industries that are dependent on the energy sector are added in to this, the gure is above 20%. He also pointed out that employment in energy accounts for less than 2% of Scotlands employment, revealing that the energy sector is very capital intensive. He observed that the energy sector in Scotland is projected to a ract between 60% and 80% of all business investment over the next ten years. The energy sector is therefore hugely important in terms of investment ac vi es, and in terms of the energy sectors contribu on through taxa on and rents (meaning the various forms of income which accrue through the extrac on of oil, or the exploita on of renewable energy).
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Professor Hughes raised a second issue about the energy sector in an imagined independent Scotland, in which Scotland would have a small, energy-dependent and rela vely open economy. Economies of this kind, he observed, tend to suer enormously from vola lity of prices. All energy prices have a tendency to extreme swings, which can be cyclical, or dependent upon external factors. The more reliant an economy is upon the energy sector, the more likely it is to nd itself squeezed if energy prices work adversely, and the greater the bonus will be in terms of revenue if they work posi vely. Spending this revenue has a consequence however, which is widely referred to as Dutch Disease. This is endemic in all energy-dependent countries. The manifesta on of this phenomenon is that in mes of economic growth, the prices of non-traded goods (goods made and consumed at home) are driven up by demand, meaning that the costs for other traded sectors (e.g., manufacturing) are higher than they would otherwise be. These sectors ul mately nd themselves squeezed, the consequence being that in all energy-dependent countries, traded goods outside the energy sector get squeezed out and eventually die. In Scotland, this is likely to have a huge impact, because manufacturing industries account for a far larger propor on of employment in Scotland than the energy sector does. Professor Hughes provided the analogy of the car industry in Australia, which doesnt exist, because mineral booms have driven up prices such that Australian car manufacturers cannot compete with the prices of imported cars. Thinking about the possible solu ons to this problem, Professor Hughes suggested that nding a solu on will pose a considerable challenge to an independent Sco sh Government. One op on would be to create a sovereign wealth fund as Norway has, funded by revenue from the energy sector. Norways sovereign wealth fund was started a long me ago, and Professor Hughes pointed out that Norways real wealth is not its sovereign wealth fund, but Stat Oil. Scotland would

not be star ng from this pa ern; the state does not own the resources or the infrastructure of North Sea Oil, and even if the Sco sh Government began receiving the rents from North Sea Oil, Professor Hughes argued, it has already commi ed to spending this money to nance public spending. The choice that would be faced by an independent Scotland is therefore between se ng up and paying into a wealth fund, or con nuing to pay for what is needed today out of the revenue of the energy sector; this is a choice which all energy-reliant economies must make. Professor Hughes also observed that, with regard to the need for energy-reliant economies to maintain investment, if this investment is not being nanced by the revenue from the sector itself, there would be a need for large inward ows of capital from outside. This means becoming extremely highly integrated with capital markets around the world. The consequence of this level of integra on is that independent management of policy, for example monetary and scal policy, would be heavily constrained. Professor Hughes observed that the idea that Scotlands energy sector would provide Scotland with the freedom to be independent is correct in one sense, but that this freedom would come at a very high cost to independence in another sense.

and the non-empathe c implementa on of compe on policy is a nuisance to business and is expensive to the economy. A well-func oning market, however, is necessary to s mulate eciency, so regula on is required. He suggested that there is a need to strike a balance, and this requires skilled sta to implement these policies.

Professor Hughes observed that there has been an assump on that Scotlands separa on from the UK would not disrupt UK energy markets. He suggested that this is a nave assump on, and is not borne out by the experience of other separa ons, or by other independent countries. By way of example, Professor Hughes suggested that if England could no longer rely on gas from the North Sea, it is nave to assume that it would con nue to import North Sea Oil. In this scenario England might just as easily import its energy from elsewhere, or produce energy itself using alterna ve sources; for example, shale gas. Professor Hughes suggested that the separa on of Scotland from the rest of the UK would radically change the calcula on in England about the way its energy policy is managed. England and Wales, he pointed out, have a lot of op ons available and need not necessarily rely on foreign sources of gas or electricity. He pointed out that Scotland is a large exporter of energy to English and Welsh markets, and that the energy Scotland produces other than through gas is expensive, so losing these markets would hit revenues that can be earned from renewables, etc. Professor Hughes concluded that Scotlands energy is a great benet, but one that needs to be managed in ways dierent from what we are used to. He suggested that this is a challenge which neither side of the debate about Scotlands cons tu onal future appears to understand or acknowledge. Professor Jeremy Peat OBE FRSE, Director of the David Hume Ins tute

Speaking about compe on policy, Professor Peat observed that, at the UK level, we are already observing major structural change, with the Oce of Fair Trading and the Compe on Commission being brought together to form the Compe on and Markets Authority (CMA). He observed that the CMA has commi ed to having a presence in Scotland, which the Compe on Commission has not, and suggested that, given the increased levels of devolu on across the UK, it will be crucial to take account of the policy dierences between dierent regions. He pointed out that there are dierences in policy in dierent regions of the UK, and that these dierences ma er. It is crucial for all regulatory bodies to recognise these dierences. Professor Peat observed that there are dicul es that arise from working with so many separate policies, because many policies transcend the boundary between Scotland and the rest of the UK, and would transcend those boundaries at least for the rst ten years a er the Sco sh Referendum, in the event of a Yes vote. He suggested that it would be neither ecient nor eec ve to undertake separate studies for the UK and Scotland. There are many instances when regulatory bodies are looking at dis nct sectors, and the policies governing these largely apply across na onal and regional boundaries. In these cases, there is a need for close coopera on and working by regulatory bodies across these boundaries.

On the subject of regula on, Professor Peat suggested that Scotland can operate an independent regulatory regime very successfully, and provided the example of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland as demonstra ve of this. A dis nct Sco sh water regulatory body was merited, he pointed out, because Scotland has a dis nct water industry. Whether a dis nct Sco sh regulator is needed for other sectors is not certain. If there is to be a single energy market opera ng across Scotland and the UK a er a Yes vote in the Referendum, are separate regulatory bodies for Scotland and the rest of the UK warranted or desirable? Professor Peat suggested that a single regulator would work, provided it took account of dis nct regional policies. On the other hand, he observed, the existence of completely dis nct energy markets in Scotland and the rest of the UK would warrant dis nct regulatory bodies. There is a need to select an approach which makes sense for the individual circumstance. Professor Peat concluded by sugges ng that the Sco sh Governments proposi on is perfectly tenable: that following a Yes vote in the Referendum regulatory func ons would be brought together under one body, which in the UK are carried out by diverse bodies. He suggested that the UK is showing evidence of going down this route already, by bringing the OFT and the Compe on Commission together, and pointed out that this system can work, indica ng New Zealand and
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Professor Jeremy Peat spoke about compe on policy and regula on in the context of Scotlands cons tu onal future. He opened with the observa on that excessive regula on

the Netherlands as examples. He added, however, that there are always caveats as to how this works. There would be a need for a highly skilled and expensive sta to implement this system, comprising lawyers, accountants and economists, with genuine business experience. He added that it would be cri cal for any new regulatory body to be seen as wholly independent of Government. Regulatory policy would need to be established by the Government, but the implementa on of these policies would need to be en rely separate. He also observed that such a body would need to have links with the UK and with the EU, because a lot of policies would transcend the na onal level, and links with the EU would be cri cal.

even in independence. Mr Peat suggested that, with regard to the real issues which merit our a en on under the heading of the Real Economy, the debate is very similar regardless of whether it refers to the exis ng cons tu onal se lement, the scope for further devolu on or a move to independence. It was suggested that in talking about independence, it is much more on the macro side that we need to look at the big issues. On the micro side, the issues themselves ma er more than the cons tu onal context.

Professor Peat nished with several observa ons. First, under Sco sh independence or increased devolu on there would be an increasing need to look at the Sco sh dimension when implemen ng regulatory policy. There would be a need to work in close harmony with the UK and under the constraints of EU policy. Greater eciency might be achieved through aggrega on, but the costs of this should not be underes mated, and nally, no market is perfect, some interven on is always needed, but this would need to be well argued and carefully implemented. Ques ons and Answers

A ques on was raised around the phenomenon of Dutch Disease, and the sugges on was made that the phenomenon sounds more like UK Disease; it was observed that resources from the North Sea and elsewhere in the UK have been squandered through being le in the hands of the private sector. The failure of the UK to create a Sovereign Fund was observed and the ques on was posed as to whether an independent Scotland might have the opportunity to correct this. The point was also made that the UK is not currently mee ng its target for renewable energies and that England would therefore s ll be reliant on Scotland for the provision of renewably sourced energy, even if it decided to procure its non-renewable energy from elsewhere.

The Chair opened the ques on and answer session with the sugges on that, throughout the discussion so far, a clear theme has been that the Real Economy is an open economy. He asked the panel whether, with or without Sco sh independence, the debate around Scotlands cons tu onal future is in fact a way of hiding from ques ons about a globalised economy. Mr Malone responded to this ques on by poin ng out that globalisa on is about par cipa on at all levels, and suggested that a ques on exists around how Scotland wishes to par cipate in this process; i.e., as a region or as an independent state. Mr Boyd added that the interna onal debate has not really been engaged with yet. He suggested that the ques on of how globalisa on can be reconciled with na on states and democracy is a great issue of our me, but one that has been ignored by the independence debate so far. Professor Hughes observed that, around the world, arguments are being had about subsidiarity i.e. what is the right level at which decisions should be made. This argument has been based around assump ons that Scotland has the power to make some of these decisions. He posed the ques on, what are the things we want to keep Sco sh and what are the things we want to pool into a larger en ty, and will independence allow us to do these things? Professor Peat suggested that the debate around Scotlands cons tu onal future is hiding away from ques ons around globalisa on, and observed that a number of the issues that relate to the Real Economy are already open to polices within Scotland. Most labour market policies are devolved, as are many of the policies for interven on in industry. There are also aspects of the energy market which are devolved, although there are other aspects which cannot be devolved,
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Responding to the ques on around Dutch Disease, Professor Hughes pointed out that the eects of this disease would be much worse in an independent Scotland than it has been in the rest of the UK. He pointed out that there has been a tradi on in the UK of spending the rents generated by North Sea Oil, and that Scotland does not need ownership of these resources to save the rents generated, but that Scotland has grown used to spending these resources. Shi ing towards a policy of saving these funds now, he observed, would be dicult. Turning to the point about the UKs renewables commitments, Professor Hughes warned against overes ma ng Scotlands nego a ng power in this area. He suggested that it is conceivable that the UK would not honour its commitments, or that it would go down a stronger nuclear route. Professor Peat observed that up un l now Scotland has managed to get the whole of the UK to pay for its renewables, but pointed out that this is costly and that there are no signs of this energy becoming quickly compe ve. He ques oned whether England would con nue with its renewables commitment in the event of Sco sh independence, and suggested that England might prefer French nuclear energy over Sco sh wind energy. Professor Hughes added that the UK could, in theory, meet all of its renewables targets by impor ng biomass.

A ques on was raised about the aordability for Scotland of inheri ng the decommissioning liability of the North Sea Oil industry, given the poten al challenges of decommissioning. Professor Hughes responded to this by poin ng out that decommissioning is a future liability and does not represent a fundamentally dicult problem for an independent Scotland. A sugges on was raised by a member of the audience that Scotland seems to have ceased to have a real economy. It was pointed out that during the 19th Century, Britain was a manufacturer to the world, but this is no longer the case.

The ques on was put to the speakers as to whether they see a dierence between Scotland being independent or remaining part of the UK, with regard to its ability to regenerate a viable Sco sh economy, as had existed in the great days of engineering. Mr Boyd responded to this ques on by observing that Government certainly can inuence the economy, but that to do so Government has to be at the heart of an innova ve system. He pointed to NASA as an example and suggested that the work and progress of NASA has Government very much at its heart. He suggested that Scotland is capable of rebuilding its manufacturing sector, and that it probably does not need to be independent to do this. He pointed out that restructuring of the nancial sector would be crucial to re-energising manufacturing in the UK, and acknowledged that there are arguments that this restructuring might be easier for an independent Scotland, but pointed out that there is nothing to suggest that independence is necessary for this, or that independence will inevitably lead to this.

A request was made from the audience for an explana on of what is meant by the real economy. This ques on was addressed by speakers in combina on with their answers to subsequent ques ons.

The Chair, Douglas Fraser, put the ques on to Mr Malone as to whether an independent Scotland could husband resources more successfully than the UK. He prompted Mr Malone to respond to the sugges on by Professor Hughes that funds raised through North Sea Oil are not available for Scotland to spend because these funds have already been allocated elsewhere. He suggested that Mr Malone had implied in his presenta on that there is some economic dynamism which is wai ng to be unleashed by an independent Scotland, and asked Mr Malone to elaborate on what or where that is. Mr Malone responded to the rst part of this ques on by sugges ng that the establishment of an Oil Stability Fund is one proposal for enabling Scotland to absorb economic shock. In response to the second part of the ques on, Mr Malone claried that he did not wish to make the claim that there are certain types of industry not coming to Scotland because of the current cons tu onal situa on. He suggested that since Scotland got its own Parliament there has been increased dynamism within the country, and he an cipates this growing with independence. He suggested that Edinburgh could become a world capital comparable to London if Scotland became an independent country, and pointed out that Government a racts companies which want to inuence Government. He referred to the example of interna onal arbitra on, and observed that Scotland doesnt have much of this at present, with the majority tending to go through London. He suggested that Scotland does not currently have an interna onal legal personality, and that opportunity for interna onal arbitra on is lost as a result. Professor Peat responded to this by sugges ng that he could not see any separate policies that could arise through independence which arent already there. He observed that Scotland is very good at crea ng intellectual capital but very bad at u lising this, and indicated that he could not see what independence would change about this fact. He posited one possibility as being that independence might bring about a change in psyche which would lead to some sort of change taking place in this area, but pointed out that this would be person-led rather than policy-led if it did occur.
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A ques on was raised around defence. It was pointed out that there has been no discussion about whether the UK can aord Trident, or its replacement, and the sugges on made that the removal of Trident and non-par cipa on in a nuclear strategy would save something in the region of 2.2 billion2 . The ques on was put to the panel: if there was a Yes in the forthcoming Referendum, how would they advise that the
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Mr Fraser addressed the ques on of inequality to Professor Hughes, and suggested that, to some extent, global forces drive inequality. He posited that inequality is not just a choice that is ac vely made by Governments, but that the choice relates to what you do about global forces. Professor Hughes chose to e his answer to this point together with his response to the earlier ques on what is the real economy. He suggested that the real economy is some mes thought to be about goods, but interpreted it as actually being about the way things are in the world, which is where issues of globalisa on arise. He argued that the freedom of choice of all economies in the world is far less than we would like to believe. Capital and skills are highly, and increasingly, mobile. An independent Scotland would be subject to this, and could not expect that it had a right to retain people and capital. Instead, Scotland must create an environment which is a rac ve to both. Professor Peat suggested that the real economy refers to what is actually happening in produc on and distribu on. He agreed that intent ma ers, and suggested that Scotland should have in mind a clear idea of what it wants to achieve. He suggested that this would require considera on of what trade-o Scotland would be willing to accept; would it be willing to accept slower growth in order to achieve greater equality, for example? He added that it is conceivable that an independent Scotland might have dierent objec ves to the rest of the UK.

A point was raised about the intent of the Westminster Government and whether this is something that the Sco sh people wish to be guided by. The sugges on was made that there have been 35 years of growing inequality in the UK, and the assump on derived from this is that the intent of the Westminster Government is in fact to generate income for the wealthy elite. It was suggested that the alterna ve to this is an independent Sco sh Government with the intent, subject to its own competence, to enrich the broader popula on of Scotland. Mr Boyd responded to this ques on with the observa on that the Sco sh Governments independence campaign has started to focus a li le on inequality, but suggested that this has been done in quite an inecient way. He pointed out that there has been no serious considera on of why inequality has grown, or what can be done under various cons tu onal scenarios to address this. He suggested that, in addressing these ques ons, a en on needs to be turned towards the present structure of norms and ins tu ons, and argued that a whole new debate exists around this issue.

Figure quoted by audience member but not referenced.

Sco sh Government use those savings to rebalance the economy and restore condence in it? Mr Boyd suggested that the Sco sh Government would need to address the failure of the nancial sector to support Sco sh business and innova on. He added that funds should be directed towards boos ng the produc ve side of the Sco sh economy. Professor Peat responded that the amount that could be saved through non-par cipa on in the UKs nuclear deterrence is negligible. He added that the worry for the Sco sh economy is not about the availability and supply of funds, but about the demand for them. He observed that businesses are not currently trying to grow, and suggested that businesses need condence in the environment in order to grow. Mr Malone added that reducing levels of inequality should boost the economy. He suggested that the problem is not just around inequality but also around poverty, and expressed the hope that the priority of the Sco sh Government would be to address these areas rather than Trident. The ques on was raised as to whether an independent Scotland would be be er or less able to deal with challenges such as global debt, an ageing popula on and terrorism, and how Scotland might respond to these. Professor Hughes made the point that for small countries, shocks such as these are of great importance. He suggested that there is a need for exibility, and that this needs to be built into na onal ins tu ons. He observed that the capacity for exibility becomes increasingly important for small countries. Mr Malone suggested, with reference to some of the shocks that the UK has already been through, that an independent Scotland should not be prepared to allow these sorts of shocks to occur again. He suggested that the existence of an Oil Stability Fund might assist in providing a buer against any future shocks and observed that this could be an advantage over na ons that dont have resources. Professor Peat pointed out that there are a number of small economies that have worked against shocks, but suggested that these economies have very ght monetary and scal policies. If Scotland wishes to go down this route it will need to be more exible, but also more ght, which could make the crea on of an oil fund even more dicult than others have suggested. Mr Boyd added that trying to predict Scotlands ability to absorb shocks in the future is hard, especially given that we do not know what the macroeconomic climate will be. He observed that Scotland is generally held to have a worse demography than the rest of the UK with regard to its ageing popula on, but that this is largely due to the higher levels of immigra on to the rest of the UK [higher levels of immigra on means a larger working age popula on, which redresses the demographic challenge of an ageing popula on]. He suggested that it might be possible for an independent Scotland to a ract higher levels of immigra on than the rest of the UK, if Scotland had a dierent immigra on regime.

The point was made by an audience member that nancial services sector are typically described as the backbone of the Sco sh economy, and the ques on was posed: what sugges ons would the panel like to oer as to how this sector could be restructured to contribute eec vely to the growth of the economy, in the event of an independent Scotland? Professor Peat suggested that the nancial centres in Glasgow and Edinburgh are something to be proud of, and suggested that that nancial sector in Scotland should con nue as it is, provided that a degree of certainty could be provided about the regime that would operate. He suggested that it is uncertainty around this that will cause those sectors that are s ll ourishing to ourish less. Mr Boyd agreed that a degree of exibility would be needed, but expressed doubt as to whether an independent Scotland would have the power to adopt a very dierent scal policy than that adopted by the rest of the UK at present.

The signicance of Scotland becoming independent to the func oning of the real economy was raised, and the ques on was posed: does pu ng a border across a market make a dierence? Professor Hughes suggested that this does make a dierence, and observed that other countries which have separated and now have a border between them do much less trade with each other than they do with other countries. He pointed out that borders do ma er in terms of integra on. Mr Malone suggested that his greater concern was around the poten al border between Scotland and the EU. He added that he felt condent there would con nue to be high levels of integra on between the UK and Scotland in the event of Scotland becoming independent. He suggested that he was willing to defer to the exper se of the economists on the panel, but expressed doubt that the rest of the UK would stop buying Sco sh products if Scotland separated from the UK. He expressed a belief that quality and price have more of an inuence than borders.

Mr Fraser directed the ques on about borders to Professor Peat, and suggested that London, as a world capital, will inuence Scotland, with or without a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK. He asked the ques on: how will London inuence Scotland? Professor Peat responded that London has a huge impact, observing that it does a ract business and industry. He suggested that compe ng with that is very dicult, and that Scotland and Edinburgh could not compete with the type of centre that London is. He suggested that Scotland would need to establish a dierent kind of centre, based on the reputa on of the nancial centres of Edinburgh and Glasgow. At this point discussion was brought to a close, and the speakers and audience members were thanked for their contribu ons. The debate will con nue in Scotland on 24 August with a discussion on Culture and Broadcas ng.

Reports of this and other events in the series are available at:

www.royalsoced.org.uk

Opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent the views of the RSE or the BA, nor of their Fellowships The Royal Society of Edinburgh, Scotlands Na onal Academy, is Sco sh Charity No. SC000470 The Bri sh Academy is Registered Charity No. 233176