What IS The Godhead or Trinity?

[This was debate in JESUSCAFE.ORG forums under the topics: What is the Godhead or Trinity?, I don't feel different and What is the true nature of Islam? May 30 2002-July 31 2002]

M: Muslim C1: Christian 1 C2: Christian 2

C1
This topic has split men for ages. For me and those I fellowship with, we just take the Bible for what it says, and leave to others to spend their time figuring out what it means. There are Three. They are one. I'll wait to get to the other shore to understand more fully, and even then, eternity won't be enough time. The only place I am convicted to draw a line is when people say Jesus is not divine and eternal. I must distance myself from that one.

M
I hope you start to think. And leaving which you had programmed for, which is by opening your eyes to which around you. I hope from you to do as in Isaiah: Let us to reason together You said :
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For me and those I fellowship with, we just take the Bible for what it says, and leave to others to spend their time figuring out what it means.

Then why did you figured out what it means in your view:
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there are three. They are one Is this verse in the bible?! No, it is just your own understanding. But it is in programming way without examination as Monsignor Eugene Clark said:
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"God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it."

And you said:

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The only place I am convicted to draw a line is when people say Jesus is not divine and eternal. I must distance myself from that one Before your speaking, you must exam it to what did early people (who were near to Jesus) believe about Jesus?

The early Christians believed on Jesus as a prophet this is what you will find in: (john 6:14)
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Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. (KJV)

(Matthew 21:11)
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And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. (KJV)

(John 4:19)
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The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. (KJV)

(Luke 24:19)
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And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people (KJV)

(Matthew 21:46)
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But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. (KJV)

That which Jesus claimed in (john 4:34)

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Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)

Yes, he was prophet and messenger of God no one in his lifetime believe in him as God himself. But when did the Trinity start? Or why the majority of Christians believe on even with confusing?! If you read the history you will find this belief started in 325 specially, after the council of Necea in the time of the pagan emperor of Roman, Constantine.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states under the heading "Trinity":

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"in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is 'of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,' even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil

of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."

In "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the
Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus:
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".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development"

"The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.

They admit it!!! Jesus (peace be upon him), John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, all of the apostles, and even Paul, were completely unaware of any "Trinity." !!

Tom Harpur writes in his book "For Christ's Sake":

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"What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible. St. Paul has the highest view of Jesus' role and person, but nowhere does he call him God. Nor does Jesus himself anywhere explicitly claim to be the second person in the Trinity, wholly equal to his heavenly Father. As a pious Jew, he would have been shocked and offended by such an Idea....(this is) in itself bad enough. But there is worse to come. This research has lead me to believe that the great majority of regular churchgoers are, for all practical purposes, tritheists. That is, they profess to believe in one God, but in reality they worship three.."

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"The reign of Constantine marks the epoch of the transformation of Christianity from a religion into a political system; and though, in one sense, that system was degraded into idolatry, in another it had risen into a development of the old Greek mythology. The maxim holds good in the social as well as in the mechanical world, that, when two bodies strike, the form of both is changed. Paganism was modified by Christianity; Christianity by Paganism. In the Trinitarian controversy, which first broke out in Egypt - Egypt, the land of the Trinities - the chief point in discussion was to define the position of 'the Son.'"

History of the Conflict between Religion and Science, Prof. John Draper, pp. 52-53 Mr. David F. Wright, a senior lecturer in Ecclesiastical History at the University of Edinburough. Mr. Wright has published a detailed account of the development of the doctrine of the "Trinity." We read:
So what did exactly happen in this fourth century? Let us ask
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"...Arius was a senior presbyter in charge of Baucalis, one of the twelve 'parishes' of Alexandria. He was a persuasive preacher, with a following of clergy and ascetics, and even circulated his teaching in popular verse and songs. Around 318 CE, he clashed with Bishop

Alexander. Arius claimed that Father alone was really God; the Son was essentially different from his father. He did not possess by nature or right any of the divine qualities of immortality, sovereignty, perfect wisdom, goodness, and purity. He did not exist before he was begotten by the father. The father produced him as a creature. Yet as the creator of the rest of creation, the son existed 'apart from time before all things'. Nevertheless, he did not share in the being of God the Father and did not know him perfectly." Wright goes on to demonstrate in this book how before the third century CE the "three" were separate in Christian belief and each had his or it's own status.

"Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity," chapter on "Councils and Creeds,"

Jesus Christ informed us about what will happen to his followers:
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"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time comes, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.." John 16:2-4 This prophesy fulfilled when the Trinitarian church's campaign of death and torture for all Christians refusing to compromise their beliefs continued for many centuries after the creation of the Trinity in 325 CE. Many brilliant scholars and leaders of the Unitarian Christians were condemned, tortured, and even burned alive in a very slow and drawn-out manner. Only some of these men are: Origen (185-254 CE), Lucian (died 312 CE), Arius (250-336 CE), Michael Servetus (1511-1553 CE), Francis David (1510-1579 CE), Lelio Francesco Sozini (1525-1562 CE), Fausto Paolo Sozini (1539-1604 CE), John Biddle (1615-1662 CE)... and on and on. This wholesale condemnation became so bad that it was not sufficient to condemn individuals any more, but rather, whole nations were condemned and killed. An example is the Holy decree of 15th of February 1568 which condemned all of the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics. Three million men, women and children where sentenced to the scaffold in three lines by the benevolent Trinitarian church. Why does no one cry "Holocaust" for these poor people?
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"Upon the 15th of February 1568, a sentence of the Holy Office condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics. From this universal doom only a few persons, especially named, were excepted. A proclamation of King Philip II of Spain, dated ten days later, confirmed this decree of the Inquisition, and ordered it to be carried into instant execution. . . Three millions of people, men, women and children, were sentenced to the scaffold in three lines. Under the new decree, the executions certainly did not slacken. Men in the highest and the humblest positions were daily and hourly dragged to the stake. Alva, in a single letter to Philip II, coolly estimates the number of executions which were to take place immediately after the expiration of Holy Week at 'eight hundred heads.'"

"Rise of the Dutch Republic" John Lothrop Motly Groliers encyclopedia under the heading of "Incarnation"
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informs us that

"Incarnation denotes the embodiment of a deity in human form. The idea occurs frequently in mythology. In ancient times, certain people, especially kings and priests, were often believed to be divinities. In Hinduism, Vishnu is believed to have taken nine incarnations, or Avatars. For Christians, the incarnation is a central dogma referring to the belief that the eternal son of God, the second person of the Trinity, became man in the person of Jesus Christ. The incarnation was defined as a doctrine only after long struggles by early church councils. The Council of Nicea (325) defined the deity of Christ against Arianism; the Council of Constantinople (381) defined the full humanity of the incarnate Christ against Apollinarianism; the Council of Ephesus (431) defined the unity of Christ's person against Nestorianism; and the Council of Chalcedon (451) defined the two natures of Christ, divine and human, against Eutyches."

Many more sweeping campaigns for the utter and complete destruction of all "unacceptable" gospels to the Trinitarian Church would be launched over the following centuries. One example of such campaigns is the one launched during the period of 379-395 AD during the reign of the Christian Emperor Flavius Theodosius wherein all non-Roman Catholic Christian writings were destroyed, or the campaign of Christian Emperor Valentinian III (425-454AD) which again commanded that all surviving non-Roman Catholic writings be utterly destroyed. Such campaigns would become the norm in the centuries to come. It is not surprising then, that this doctrine of incarnation is not mentioned in the New Testament. Once again, the one verse which validates this claim, 1 Timothy 3:16, is again recognized as a later forgery which was foisted upon Jesus fully six centuries after his departure: Regarding this verse, Sir Isaac Newton says:
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"In all the times of the hot and lasting Arian controversy, it never came into play they that read 'God manifested in the flesh' think it one of the most obvious and pertinent texts for the business."

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"This strong expression might be justified by the language of St. Paul (I TIM. 3.16), but we are deceived by our modern Bibles. The word "o" (which) was altered to "theos" (God) at Constantinople in the beginning of the 6th century: the true reading, which is visible in the Latin and Syriac version, still exists in the reasoning of the Greek, as well as the Latin fathers; and this fraud, with that of the three witnesses of St. John, is admirably detected by Sir Isaac Newton."

"Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," VI, Gibbon, p. 10.

Notice how, shortly after the "incarnation" was officially approved, it was recognized that the Bible needed to be "corrected" and "clarified" so that the reader could see the "incarnation" clearly. All that was needed was to change one word. Thus 1 Timothy 3:16 went from saying: Before the inspired sixth century "correction": "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: which was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." to saying: After the inspired sixth century "correction": "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" Thankfully, more recent and faithful versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) are now beginning to discard such innovations. Much is yet to be desired, however, it is a start. In the year 364 AD, another council was held in Laodicea for the same purpose. This conference of Christian scholars and theologians not only confirmed the decision of the council of Nicea regarding the authenticity of the Epistle of Jude but also declared that the following six books must also be added to the list of genuine and believable books: The Book of Esther, The Epistle Of James, The Second Epistle of Peter, The Second and Third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews. This conference pronounced their decision to the public. The book of Revelations, however, remained out of the list of the acknowledged books in both the councils.
It is enough for who want the truth to see the declaration of the most Anglican bishops:

In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read:
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"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of

the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

I ask: Did Jesus say: Worship me! or I am God?

M
Let us to see what is the teaching of Jesus Christ because there is no one is worthy to be followed except the teacher Jesus Christ himself. If you want to pray you need to pray to whom Jesus was praying and asking. If you read the Bible you will find him always calling Father, God Almighty, the Creator. So, no one is worthy to be worshiped except God alone. See what Jesus teaches:
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Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (Matthew 4:10). See what Jesus said he did not say worship me. Dear brother, If you read the whole of the Bible, you will never find Jesus says Worship me or I am God. What is that meaning? He was a servant of God but not God himself. He said that:
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Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (john 4:34) (KJV) Oh! Brother did you understand his telling? He means that he is messenger of God and his work here to spread the teaching of God as he said:
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Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (john 7:16) (KJV) Jesus asked us to follow the religion of God and the law of Moses as in Matthew 23:1-3:
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1: Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do And you know the first of ten commandments that to worship your only one God and there is no mentioned of The Trinity, neither the Son nor Holy Spirit. That because there is no one is worthy of our worshiping except the ONE who created us and gave us all of graces around us. We must thank him only and not to worship other gods even Jesus or Holy Spirit. We respect Jesus Christ and he is Prophet and Teacher but we can not put him as partner of God himself. Oh! Brother, Try to call the Creator of the sky, the Creator of earth, of planets, stars, animals, humans and all of the creatures. Call him by your heart with crying. Ask him to show you the guidance and the truth for good sequence. Do that by all of your heart with remembering the grace and his mercy. Try to do that and you will not loose any thing just you need to exam that.

C2
Peace be with you. I have a favor to ask of you: I would like to read your interpretation of John 3:13-21. Would you please share your interpretation of this portion of John's Gospel with us? Thank you.

I thank you for your question. But I think also you could not show me where Jesus had claimed about his godhead which means he is God. If you read the Bible from the cover to cover you will not find Jesus said that he is God or asked us to worship him. I hope not take my words as challenge but it is the truth. You asked me to read (John 3:13-21) But I think if you mean to say to me interpret whole that verses I think we will need to have volumes to explain all. For that I will speak about the first verse only, number 13, because it is the most important verse among these verses. I hope from you to not waste a time just ask specific verse which you claim there your proofs. Here is (John 3:13) in (King James Version):
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And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (KJV) But what a difference if you read it in (Revised Standard Version):
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No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man (RSV) Here we can find some distortions applied to this verse in the sentence which is in heaven see how the scribes added this sentence to the mouth of Jesus. It is different meaning when we avoid the distorted sentence. For that the scholars (remember! thirty two scholars assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty cooperating denominations) who had product RSV said about KJV:
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"...Yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS.."

Now let us to check this verse. If you mean to say that for Jesus ascended to heaven, it means that he is God. Then may us to worship Enoch and Elijah as Gods inside of trinity!!
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And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11) (KJV)

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And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.(Geneses 5:24) (KJV)

Also here giving us a blink to the authenticity of this verse because it mentioned that No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven but we found that there are who had ascended before Jesus. Also read this:
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he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)(KJV) Imagine that if Jesus is God himself, how could Mark say that he sat on the right hand of God does he mean that God sat in the right hand of himself?!! No, he means that Jesus is near to God and having high rank as a great prophet. See how when we spoke about one verse how much long it was, how about if we want to speak about all those verses. As I said to you we need to write Volumes of books. Thanking you,..

C2
Greetings, You wrote: "But also I think you could not show me where Jesus claimed about his godhead which means he is God. If you read the Bible from the cover to cover you will not find Jesus said that he is God or asked us to worship him." I have not yet finished reading the Bible cover-to-cover, but I have read enough of it to find the following passages, which do clearly testify that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and is God: John 1:1, 1:14, 8:58, 10:30-33, 10:36, 20:31 Matt 27:43 Furthermore, Jesus Christ is directly quoted as claiming divinity in John 10:30, John 10:36 and Matt 27:43. If this is not enough proof for you, also consider that God testified Himself regarding His Son Jesus Christ in these passages: Matt 3:17 Mark 1:11 Luke 3:22 Now, regarding my previous question, I noticed that you very artfully dodged it. Therefore, I ask it again directly one more time: Would you please share your interpretation of John 3:13-21 with us? What is the meaning of these verses? Please do not limit yourself to verse 13 this time. These verses are short and very easy to read. Please be advised that if you continue to avoid answering my question directly, you testify to everyone reading these posts that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God, and IS God, and IS the only way for humans to Salvation and eternal life in Heaven with God. I wish you all the best, and I urge you to open your heart to the Word of God.

M
That is good from you to try to give answers of which the most confused topic. I think the beginning of the truth is thinking with searching. And also I hope every one here to not think that we are in the battle or competition there every one want to win in his match. No, we are in the same road called searching and exploring the right. Must we put in our mind that If the truth is with you, I will follow you and if it is with me, you will follow me. No one here going to be lost. I hope all of us taking our hands by hands with helping ourselves. Oh! C1, You tried to give proofs of Jesus godhead: You had given some verses which you claimed it is to believe Jesus is God himself. My point was which you did not understand it, the declaration of Jesus about his godhead not of any other one. You could not find his declaration in the Bible from cover to cover. He did not say: "I am God" or "Worship me". Did you find it in the bible? I will answer to you which had given me. For proving we need to hear what Jesus said and not what the others said like John, Luke, Paul.etc That because the exactly teaching is just come from Jesus but others will say which they believe

on their background for it is right or wrong, and any human is susceptible to mistake for his saying which is not standard . I think if you read the introduction of Luke, you will understand my point: 1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:1-4)(New International Version) I think here you see how Luke wrote his gospel by investigation which is strong proof for it is not inspired. Also do not forget here some contradictions between the gospels like the genealogy of Jesus. The other important reason is that there were more gospels not agree with these 4 gospels and epistles of Paul like gospel of Barnabas. This gospel is one of other gospels and scriptures which banned and burned by church after 4th century. The apostle Barnabas was filled by Holy Spirit according to (Acts 11:22-24): " and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. (KJV) Barnabas and Paul in the beginning gathered to spread Christianity faith to people but later there was matter between them happened; that is: And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other : and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; (Acts 15:39)(KJV) Here in this verse did not show us the reason, it is a wonder! First apostles separated by sharp contention!!. Now let us to read the introduction in the gospel of Barnabas which discovered in 1709 CE (congress library having copy of English translation): Dearly beloved the great and wonderful God hath during these past days visited us by his prophet Jesus Christ in great mercy of teaching and miracles, by reason whereof many, being deceived of Satan, under presence of piety, are preaching most impious doctrine, calling Jesus son of God, repudiating the circumcision ordained of God for ever, and permitting every unclean meat: among whom also Paul hath been deceived, whereof I speak not without grief; for which cause I am writing that truth which I have seen and heard And it was not only contention of Paul. He made it also with Peter, the chief of disciples, as it is clear in: But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. (Galatians 2:11-13) (KJV) See how Paul was against of Barnabas and Peter for same reasons. Do not forget that Barnabas and Peter met the Christ in his life time but Paul did not. Also during of lifetime of Paul the believers left him as in (Timothy 4:14-16): Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: .. At my first answer no man stood with me, but ALL MEN FOSOOKE ME:. (KJV) And also they were against him and his teaching: and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, (Acts 21:22) (KJV) And here observe! what Paul said: For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law.(Corinthians 9:19-21) (KJV) Is not this the way of hypocrites?!! And here is another question for us, is these epistles are from Paul himself or inspired by Holy Spirit? I leave this question for Paul to answer it: Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment (Corinthians 7:25) (KJV

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (Galatians 5:2) (KJV) See what Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17:19)(KJV) Now exam this teaching with the teaching of Paul: whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.(Galatians 2:16) (KJV) think! Who is the least in the kingdom of heaven?! Now whom will you follow? Jesus or Paul? What amazing! When we see the teaching of Jesus and teaching of Paul, we realize that the Trinitarians follow Paul. For your knowledge, these books: The Book of Esther, The Epistle Of James, The Second Epistle of Peter, The Second and Third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews did not add to New Testament except after 364 AD. For that we can not base our faith except on the saying of Jesus himself.

M
Thank you for your caring. Now you asked me about 8 verses and add! with it 3:14-21 which it will be 16 verses. I think 16 verses will needs a volumes of books as I previously said to you. it is truly because the belief of the Trinitarians which inherited by Constantine from 4th century who insert his pagan belief (which had root in the Roman empire before coming of Jesus) to Christians by persecution as the Church forced people to believe on trinity long time ago. Even Galileo killed because he said of earth circling and also more of who killed by burning because they tried to translate the bible from Greek unto Roman language. And it is not as you said: I noticed that you very artfully dodged it also you said: Therefore, I ask it again directly one more time: Would you please share your interpretation of John 3:13-21 with us? What is the meaning of these verses? Please do not limit yourself to verse 13 this time. These verses are short and very easy to read. I think I asked you after I had shown you the most important is verse 13 among those verses, I hope from you to not waste a time just ask specific verses which you claim there ur proofs But you did not. You just returned back to ask me the same question again. But if you mean to say all of these verses claims that Jesus is God, I think here I must correct which is mistaken thought. Now I will start to speak in shortly about all of 16 verses but also it will not finish at one message. There we will need at least one page for every verse it means it will be at least 16 pages but do not worry I will try to compose it and put only the brief. Here I will try to speak about the verses of John 3:14-15 in very shortly way. And I will not speak about verses 3:16-21 because they are words of John but not of Jesus. You can explore this from the way of speaking and also you can observe that in (Revised Standard Version). It closed the verse 15 by quotation mark . But one of King James Version defects they let 3:16-21 in red color as it from the words of Jesus. The words of Jesus here as it clear in (RSV): 10: Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? 11: Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have

seen; but you do not receive our testimony. 12: If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13: No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15: that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." I finished already from verse number 13. In verse 14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV) Here mentioned as the power of God which Moses lifted up by it the serpent, also by that same power (which refer to God himself) God will lift up Jesus and here Jesus points himself son of man to give to the mind that he is human created by God. In verse 15: In (KJV): That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Also here another words which ascribes added to words of The Christ that which you will observe if you read (RSV): that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." I am not against the meaning of should not perish but also we must not accept any insertion to the words of Jesus and playing on it. In this verse, who believe on Jesus as messenger sent by God and receive all of his teaching he will have the eternal life in heaven. But what is the teaching of Jesus? His teaching you can see it in (Matthew 4:10): Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve he did not say Worship me!. I think you will not ask me to speak about what John himself said (John 3:16-21) but about what Jesus said as (John 3:13-15). Thanking you

M
U had given me these verses: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. john 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. john 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. john 10:30-33 30: I and my Father are one. 31: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32: Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. john 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? john 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Matt 27:43

He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. I think here I will start in the first of these verses that (John 1:1): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Firstly, is the word with God or it is God himself?. See how this verse contradict it self. I can not say I am with me. Seondly, this verse is not word of Jesus Christ. Thirdly, I hope to ask John from where did he get this sentence? I have the answer, he steeled it from another Jew, Philo of Alexandria (20BC-50AD), who claimed no divine inspiration for them and who wrote them decades before the "gospel of John" was ever conceived this which acknowledged by every erudite Christian scholar of the Bible. Groliers encyclopedia has the following to say under the heading "Logos"("the word"): "Heraclitus was the earliest Greek thinker to make logos a central concept ......In the New Testament, the Gospel According to Saint John gives a central place to logos; the biblical author describes the Logos as God, the Creative Word, who took on flesh in the man Jesus Christ. Many have traced John's conception to Greek origins--perhaps through the intermediacy of eclectic texts like the writings of Philo of Alexandria." Thirdly, what is the translation of God in Greek language? That is Ho Theos. When we are reading the nouns in Greek manuscripts we will find John 1:1: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with Ho Theos , and the Logos was Ton Theos did you observe that in the first word God translated right from Ho Theos but in the second word God which is in the Greek manuscript Ton Theos. What is the meaning of Ton Theos? Ton Theos literally means "divine/a god. Look here! There is no honesty for the translators. A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording). Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as "In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine." The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173 And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'" The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317 In yet another Bible we read: "The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine" The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, by Dr. James Moffatt Please also see "The Authentic New Testament" by Hugh J. Schonfield and many others. Now what is the different between God and a god? For more understanding read (2 Corinthians 4:4): "the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not." Is devil God?!! May be In the future we will find a people who will say God is one but in four

Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Devil. And read also: "I have said, Ye (the Jews) are gods; and all of you are children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6) "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh" (Exodus 7:1) After reading this message I think now no needing to think about (John 1:1). To be continued.

(John 10:30-36) I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?(KJV) If I asked the Trinitarians Did Jesus said: I am God? they will answer: Yes, he said: I and my Father are one. Is this the answer of my question?!!! If that like this, I can say and declare that also the twelve disciples even the traitor Judah Iscariot and the doubting Thomas are also Gods in one God or parts of Trinity. They will ask me where? Did Jesus claim that? I will say of course, did not you read (John 17:20-22)? What that verse says? I will read it: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE: all the believers are one in God!! For that we can give the right for the Catholics to worship their saints because saints are parts of Trinity as in that verse quoted!! But Wait! Wait! Is that word one means one in the divinity?! No, of course, not because God is only one without parts. They are one in the propose not in divinity. As it clear from the context. Here are returning back to I and my Father are one, This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows: "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is GREATER than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." (John 10:23-30) In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand. Jesus did not forget to show the Jews that the only true God who is the great is Father: My Father, which gave them me, is GREATER than all for that his power is not from himself because he is slave of God but the power is only from God who gave him For my Father is greater than I(John 14:28) if Jesus God, does he mean that God is greater than himself?!!. But the Jews were trying to accuse him ambiguously for having any right to kill him. For that purpose they started with him by saying How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly (John 10:24) but because he answered to them a good answer which they did not expect they tried again to play their dirty game by saying: For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.(john

10:33) But Jesus showed them the mistaken of what they want to think about and corrected them by saying: Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(john 10:34). he is obviously quoting from the 82nd Psalm, verse 6, "I have said, ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most High." Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods' ) and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other word he is saying to them in our own language and the language of scriptures refer to the prophets as Gods, Is that means they are really Gods as part of God Almighty or partners?! Of course, not that meaning then how could you throw the stones for a same reason. Is that mean I am God himself? If I said that I am son of God(john 10:36) Which used in the scriptures for those who are believe on God, is that blasphemy? Of course not. He refer to David, Solomon, Adam and all who are sons of God according to scriptures, then what is the different if he has the same title son of God. This the answer also to those verses john 20:31 and Matthew 27:43, from there John quote his words But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and also Matthew: for he said, I am the Son of God I think now u understand what is the meaning of son of God which is not specialist title for Jesus only but it was for every one who is believe on God and his near to him. It is figurative word not literally means that they are sons of God who came by sex. As u can read in (john 1:14): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth(KJV) Here in this verse u can see how this is not the word of Jesus and even not the word of John there is someone unknown add it, as u can see it is clear because it is inside of brackets (). and see what happened in of word begotten in (RSV) and (NIV) it cast out from the bible for it is additional. But what would you say in (Psalms 2:7): I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (KJV) here God called David as begotten, does that mean David is one another person in Trinity? does it make David God?!! I think u understand what that verse means. This verse also answered for (Matt 27:43), (Matt 3:17), (Mark 1:11) and (Luke 3:22). For increasing your knowledge u can read: (1 Chronicles 22:9-10),(Jeremiah 31:9) and (Job 2:1). I think now you will go to say that for Jesus does not have a human father that means God must be his Father. If that reason which will let him God, think Adam having more right than him to be God because he does not have either of human father or mother and in (Luke 3:38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (KJV) also God according to bible is Father of all humans not only of Jesus as Jesus himself said: I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God (John 20:17) and also here what Jesus said about God Almighty: and to my God. If Jesus God, how could he call him his God? Is God of himself?!! See what a confusing of Trinity faith!!!

I think I answered to u these verses: (John 1:1, 1:14, 10:30-33, 10:36, 20:31 Matt 27:43, 3:17 Mark 1:11 Luke 3:22) now just remaining (John 8:58) thanking you.

john 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Is that I am like I am God?!!! why Jesus do not have bold to say I am God? Or you means to say because Jesus present before Abraham or in other word I am before Abraham, is that enough reason for him to be God?! I think you did not read: The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (proverbs 8:22-23) (KJV) See how Solomon was before all the creatures even Abraham. Is Solomon God?!! Also (Hebrews 7:3) u can see how Melchizedec is he!! Now what is the meaning of Jesus presence before Abraham? Here we can understand easily that Jesus prophethood was written even before the presence of Adam lifetime. In another word, he means to say that he is one of those who God promised to send them from the old because the Judgment of God is before the creation, every accident in the world made by accuracy of God and he had wrote it as he knows it. For more understanding read what God said for Jeremiah in (Jeremiah 1:5): Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (KJV) I think I answered all which u asked me. Now I think no meaning of trinity in the Bible which Jesus never claimed that he is God. Think if Jesus is God he must to say I am God for giving the proofs of his godhead but that which Jesus did not teach us and he never said worship me he taught us to worship Father, God Almighty, The Creator.

C1
Greetings, Why are your posts so long? The truth is simple, and doesn't need complex arguments to support it. You can twist and manipulate and shade the meanings of words all you want, but your arguments are a shaky "house of cards", which you will see blown away when you meet your Creator. You construct complex arguments to hide the simple truth of the Bible passages. You are only fooling yourself. Let's consider John 10:30, we already know that when Jesus Christ says "Father", He is referring to God the Father (please don't muddy the waters by denying this, you will only make a fool of yourself). So when He says "I and my Father are one", He is clearly claiming to be God, and confirming that God has at least 2 Persons. The Jews obviously understood this, because they were preparing to stone Him for making the claim (please see verses 31-33). Why is it so hard for you to understand? Furthermore, in verse 36, Jesus Christ confirms that He did say that He is the Son of God. Open your heart to the Word of God, His Son, and peace be with you.

C1

Peace be with you. When I refer you to Bible passages where Jesus Christ has clearly stated that He is the Son of God, and you in turn reply that they don't say what they say, then there is no point to this debate. You cannot "wish" reality into any shape you choose. Only God can do that. How many men, in the history of mankind, have done these things: 1.) turned water into wine 2.) healed other men only by laying on hands

3.) raised other men from death after a period of days 4.) had their death accompanied by earthquakes 5.) physically risen from the dead after a period of days (unassisted by other men) There has been only one: Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, the Son of God.

You said: When I refer you to Bible passages where Jesus Christ has clearly stated that He is the Son of God, and you in turn reply that they don't say what they say, then there is no point to this debate. You cannot "wish" reality into any shape you choose. Only God can do that. I think I had showed you previously, How many sons are for God and not only Jesus. And I did not do as you claimed: and you in turn reply that they don't say what they say. Plz if you could not answer my questions, do not try to add which I did not say it. We are here not for factory and mocking to others we are helping ourselves. Every one of us want to help the other from the hell and bad sequence. For that we are not enemies. I hope to remember that. In all of my writings as you had seen it are supported by proofs. I did not compel you or others to believe it but it is up to you. All which I do is doing my job of showing the truth of God unity and God who will judge the ignorants. You asked me and I think I have the right to answer you and it is my pleasure: How many men, in the history of mankind, have done these things: 1.) turned water into wine 2.) healed other men only by laying on hands 3.) raised other men from death after a period of days 4.) had their death accompanied by earthquakes 5.) physically risen from the dead after a period of days (unassisted by other men) But I give the excuse because you did not read: (John 11:41-44): Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, "Father, I thank you that you listened to me. 11:42I know that you always listen to me, but because of the multitude that stands around I said this, that they may believe that you sent me." 11:43When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" if Jesus did that by himself why did he thank Father?!!! Elijah also gave the life for dead. About ur point number 5: physically risen from the dead after a period of days (unassisted by other men) if you go to India the Hindus will say to you yes Krishna our Savior did it before Jesus(this which I will show you later). I think also you do not know more about Jesus(sorry about this word)!!! See (Mark 6:4-5): 6:4Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own relatives, and in his own house." He could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people, and healed them. See how he refer himself to be prophet not God. And look how he could not do miracle in some times but God can always. Read (Mark 12:13) 12The next day, when they had come out from Bethany, he was HUNGRY. 11:13Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came to see if perhaps he might find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. Do u think the Creator of earth and sky, who feed every creature is hungry?!!! And does not God is Most knower? How did not he know the season of the figs as he is its creator?!! Are these attributes of God?!! I leave the answers for you and others who hope to think. But who does not want to think that is up to him to stay blind.

About (John 30:10) read it as you like but do not forget to read (John 17:20-22): Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE:

C2
If Jesus is not God, if He had a beginning as a created or being of any other kind, His death would pay the price for only one other being, no more. He could have no right to redeem everyone. But being God the Son, His death is equal to the task, and it pays the ransom for the whole human race. Anything less, we are lost, Big-Time. He paid for the sins of the whole world, because as divinity, he could carry them. No other being could have done so. When Thomas said to Jesus - "My Lord and my God," Jesus did not rebuke him for blasphemy; He accepted that worship. So either Jesus is God, or HE is guilty of blasphemy. God forbid. And it is not the case. Jesus is the second member of the Godhead, of the divine existence, the great I Am, the self-existent One.

Oh! Brother C1, You had called me brother. Thank you for that and it is showing me how you are good one and I think every human even he has bad nature or bad on any of his character but he still having goodness. I hope also to call you brother. I think there is some different between us but also we are same on the aim that to find the truth for following it, for that we are ONE.:) You asked me about (John 20:28): And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV) Firstly, the phrase "Thomas answered" is somewhat misleading since nowhere before this verses was Thomas asked a question. Thomas' words could more appropriately be referred to as an "outburst" or an "exclamation." This is indeed why most translations of the Bible (excluding the King James Version) follow this exclamation with an "exclamation mark" as follows: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God !" Christian scholars such as Theodore of Mopsuestia (c.350-428), the Bishop of Mopsuestia, interpreted this verse to not be directed at Jesus but at God "the Father." Thus, it is similar in meaning to our modern exclamations of surprise "My God!" or "My Lord!." In other words, this was an outburst designed to display surprise and disbelief rather than an affirmation that Jesus was in fact God "the Father." Secondly, the word translated in this verse as "God" is indeed the Greek "Ho theos" (The God), and not "theos" (divine). However, when studying the history of this verse in the ancient Biblical manuscripts from which our modern Bibles have been compiled we find an interesting fact, specifically, that the ancient Biblical manuscripts themselves are not in agreement as to the correct form of this word. For example, the codex Bezae (or codex D) is a fifth century manuscript containing Greek and Latin texts of the Gospels and Acts, which was discovered in the 16th century by Theodore Beza in a monastery in Lyon. The predecessor of the codex Bezae and other church manuscripts do not contain the article "Ho" ("THE") in their text (The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, Bart D. Ehrman, p. 266). What this means is that this verse in it's original form, if it is to be understood to be addressing Jesus (pbuh) himself, only addresses him as "divine" and not as the "Almighty God." Thus, it is similar in meaning to the meaning conveyed when prophet Moses is described as being a "god" in Exodus 7:1 (or when all Jews are described as being "gods" in Psalms 82:6, or when the devil is described as god in 2 Corinthians 4:4), effectively reducing the exclamation of Thomas, if it were indeed directed to Jesus, to "My lord the divine!," or "my divine lord!" Furthermore, some Christian scholars believe that the whole episode of "doubting Thomas" is a later "insertion." "The Five Gospels" mark this passage as being a complete fabrication and not the word of Jesus. Another important example of dirty playing of distortion by Church in the Medieval ages that (1 John 5:7): 1Jn:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV) which canceled from (RSV) and (NIV) and noted down in the

margin: (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century). Some unknown understand that there is no spoke about trinity for that he inserted this without honesty.

C1
Peace be with you. I pray everyday that you see the Light that is Jesus Christ and be saved. Maybe these passages will help you: John 5:23 (NASB) - so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 14:6 (NASB) - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

C2
With all due respect, I try to let the Bible interpret itself

M
To C2,
Thanking you for all which you said. Dear brother, Did not I show you all my proofs by using bible itself. I had shown you how the bible interpret itself. How could the bible interpret itself, for every one will understand it by his background and for which he programmed for?! It is easy to know we cannot interpret any verse without exam it with other verses to understand my point, assume that there is verse in the Buddhist scriptures Buddha said: I am good, think what the people will understand it? 1) Buddhists will say this is the declaration of his godhead. 2) We will say there is no meaning of his godhead here that verse just means that he is good person. 3) His enemies,who do not believe on him and claiming him as liar, will say this view of his pride for that he is not good one. See how the different of understanding is going on! Then how could we know that where is the truth. which of these 3 saying is true. For that we will have some examinations of that: 1) did he said that I am God? we use this question as the first step of examination because God must claim of his godhead to stand his proof in front of his creatures. We will find the answer of that question is NO. 2) We exam that verse beside of another verses to find the true conception. 3) We exam that verse beside his Characters, his words and deeds, and exam all of those with the attributes of the true God.(this step will be the 5ht step of our examination of Jesus). I think by these 3 steps we will know what Buddha means by I am good. Through this way I used my evidences in our sicussions. I hope from you to return back reading all which we spoke about. And ask these questions between yourself and try to answer it also between yourself in your heart: 1) If Jesus God he will declare about himself by saying I am God but did he said that?! 2) If Jesus God he will be mentioned in old testament by his name Jesus and you will see the prophets who before Jesus praying to him and they will be taught their nations that they must to worship to God in three Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 3) Did you find the word trinity in the bible? These questions will lead you to that Jesus is not more than prophet and messenger who sent by God to teach people How to worship God in his Oneness. I thank you again for all of your words.

To C1

Thank you for your last massages which is proof of Jesus prophethood in another words he is not God but his messenger whom God sent him: 1)John 5:23 (NASB) - so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 2)John 14:6 (NASB) - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." 3) I add the verse which also Trinitarian pointing to it: he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (John 14:9)(KJV) ----in (John 5:23), Jesus taught us that we must respect him having honor to him because he is messenger of God also every one is believe on God we must honor him. If we love God we must love every one love him. (For Ray) This is not my interpretation it is the bible interpretation, read (Luke 10:16): He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. (KJV) see Jesus did not say: Honor the son equal of honor of your Father or same level of honor but he said in (John 14:28): For my Father is greater than I see Jesus taught us that if we believe and honor God, we must to believe and honor to his messenger but not equal of honor. Every one his honor is equal to his rank. ---about (John 14:6-9): "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." but does that mean he is God himself ?! It means I am the way of truth and; if u follow my way, u follow the way of God, for obeying God and rieciving his satisfaying u must to hear me. By following my teaching which God taught me u will have the true life that which means he is messenger of God as he claimed that in (Matthew 10:40): "He that receiveth you receiveth me (Jesus), and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me".. Bcz that he completed in next verse "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him" He means by "have seen him" that believe on him. in other words, believing him without doubt as u see him. But see! how Phillips misunderstand which Jesus meant. He asked him to see God by his eyes to have confedence of his belief, but how can he see God by eye? No one ever can see God and no one had seen as in (John 1:18) "No man hath seen God at any time," and u know gospell of John wrote after the time of Jesus. If Jesus God himself, John will not write the verse 1:18. Then Jesus said to phllip after the impossible question " Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip?" which he reffer to him that meaning "The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me."(John 14:24) which means untill now u do not trust me to believe on God and u know i am messenger of God and taught u which he sent me for. Then he said : " He who has seen me has seen the Father" which similar meaning with "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." (John 8:19 ) and "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 6:46) what is the meaning of "is of God"? it is very clear that who beleave on God, he see Him. Does it mean he physically seen God?!! I will leave the answer for u. In during of the lifetime of Noah, Noah was the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through him because he was the messenger of God in that time. In during of the lifetime of Abraham, Abraham was the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through him because he was the messenger of God in that time. In during of the lifetime of Moses, Moses was the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through him because he was the messenger of God in that time. In during of the lifetime of Jesus, Jesus was the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through him because he was the messenger of God in that time.

For that Noah, Abram, Moses and Jesus are the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through them because they are the messengers of God. We honor God and for his honor we honor all of his messengers like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Dear fghunter, Again I ask you which you can not answer me: Did Jesus say I am God? why you are escaping from this question. Just you have to say Yes or No.

C1
I have already answered your question. Jesus DID say that He was God. Must I quote all the passages again? I will not take the time to do so, because I think that you will ignore them again, or intentionally misinterpret them again. I am confident in my belief that Jesus is God. I have shared this with you. If the Word of God finds no place in your heart, I am sorry for that, and I will pray for you. Again, I urge you to open your heart to the Word of God.

M
You said: I have already answered your question. Jesus DID say that He was God until now you did not understand me, even did not answered me. I asked you did Jesus said: I am God? is there any verse literally like that. I know it is the question which you never can answer it. And also you said: I will not take the time to do so, because I think that you will ignore them again, or intentionally misinterpret them again. Which verses did I ignore it?!! Did I? I think every thing is clear but who do not want to hear he will close his ear and he will say I did not hear. And I did not interpret by myself but I used verses beside verses without cutting it like you did, to prove my words. I hope to check it again. For that you said: I am confident in my belief that Jesus is God. I have shared this with you. But I am confident in my belief that Jesus is prophet and messenger of God and his slave as I surrounded you by all proofs already. No one have to compel you but you will see in the day of judgment all of truth and remember! God, the Creator will ask you about all of my proofs. And thank you for and I will pray for you but I hope you to know which God you ask, the Creator God Almighty who created you and gave you all of his graces or to Jesus who is one of Gods creatures?!! If you want to open your mind and heart to the truth or not, that is your responsibility. All of my responsibility is to show you but God only who give the guidance. Now I will go to another step to complete our evidences.

M
Is Jesus equal to God?
Trinitarians will say: YES. But wait! And wait! I have another question under this question: did Jesus claim that?! No, one will answer. Then what did he claim?! Just minute! I have the answer, Jesus said: For my Father is greater than I. see what Jesus claims and see what Trinitarians claim. Then how could they say Jesus is God?!! Then when you ask them how could you believe Jesus beside Father but Jesus taught us to worship only one true God not two gods? They will replay no they are one God but not two gods because God is Father, God is Son and God is Holy Spirit but They are not 3 gods but one god. Then If you say to them, if they are same one God then

there is no comparison between them because they are one God in different forms. They will say yes, Father is equal to Son and Son is equal to Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit is equal to Father. In anther word, there is no meaning of comparison because they are all only one God. Exam these answers with For my Father is greater than I. If they are one God then what is the meaning of comparison here and also Father is the greatest?!!! If they are one God then how could there be comparison? Can any one say I greater than I. No! no! do not trick yourself when you say God is Father and God is Son you meant it that there is two Gods Father and Son with adding the Third God, Holy Spirit they will be three Gods. It is the dirty game of Satan which he played it with all of pagan religions. Even when you claim that they are one God: Father and his Son, is not in other words God is father of himself?!! See how is the trick going on. What about (Luke 6:12): And it came to pass in those days, that he(Jesus) went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. (KJV) observe! Is God praying to himself?!!! Or you must to have aware to admit that you believe on two Gods. Do you believe that God having a God? Read (John 20:17): I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God. (KJV)

M
Does he has the same nature with God?
here we will exam that and you will see the result will be that He can NEVER be GOD. We have given the quotations from the Bible for the Bible speaks for itself! TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR SON OF GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! I have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man that Jesus is God!

THE BIRTH OF GOD: Job 25:4: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?" See how is the highness of God that is impossible in his attributes that to be man born by woman. Is not this attribute of Jesus?! "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke 2:6), "And shebeing with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered."(Revelation 12:2), And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. " (Luke 11:27) can you imagine God Almighty as child crying?!! Or God Sucked The Paps of a Woman?!!

MAIN FIGURES OF GOD: The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew 2:1) The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew 13:55) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."(Mark 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar.He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew 17:24-27)

THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD": Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke 2:40) The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do NOTHING."(John 5:30), "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Time: Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20) "God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews 5:8) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD The Devil Tempted "God": "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13), "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) think how Divel could tempt God his Creator?! "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13) A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark 11:12) Do you think God who feeds all of his creatures is hungry?!! A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow."(Mark 4:38) A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John 4:6) A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35)

THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost

sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD": The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark 15:37) The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans 5:6). "He was dead". (John 19:33) Is this which they claim that Jesus is like or same nature with God?!! I think now they can not Insult to THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN. But this is the true God which all prophets even Jesus worshiped him: Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22) (KJV)

C1

I have answered some of your so-called "proofs", but you have not listened. Just as you said that Christianity is not the truth just because it has more followers, likewise your so-called "proofs" are not truth just because you write endless numbers of them. You ignore and distort the facts, so it is a waste of time to debate you.

M
Why do you have more pride. You know the pride is door of hell. I know that any prove I show you, you will say it is not proof but only the educated people are understand what is the proof. Your words are very similar to the saying of Monsignor Eugene Clark: "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." You just like to speak without proves you can return back to the previous topics, there you can know who is meaningless in his words. I hope again when you are speaking to be more polite and showing your proves because people knows what is the proof means.

C1
You still have more garbage, I see. My words are not proud. I do not speak on my own behalf, but on the behalf of Jesus Christ. You are a hypocrite. You deny and ignore the proofs that we have given you, but yet you accuse us of this same thing. Monsignor Eugene Clark is right. You were wise to quote him. Now be wiser still and believe. Do you presume to be able to fully understand and comprehend God? I have been polite. It is you that has been insulting. Your hypocrisy again. I have not insulted

you even one time (your words, yes, but not you). I will not allow myself to, because Jesus Christ does not want me to. If my words are too harsh for you, then you should listen when I speak gently.

C2
M wrote: "Your words are very similar to the saying of Monsignor Eugene Clark: "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." ******************************************** I must disagree with the idea in this statement. IN NATURE: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20 The Universe is a unity of three elements; space, matter, and time. Space is a unity of three elements; height, width, and depth. Matter is defined in three categories; animal, vegetable, or mineral. Time is a unity of past, present, and future. Man is a unity of three natures; intellectual, emotional, and physical: spirit, soul and body. The family is a collection of three; father, mother, child. **************************************** The Sanctuary is a collection of three units; the courtyard, the Holy Place, and Most Holy Place. Two unseen, one seen by the people. "....and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" "And from Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness...." "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father..." Revelation 1:4-6 The Father's throne is to the north, the table of shewbread. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, the altar of incense, where He communes with the priests. The Spirit is before the throne, the candle stick. ********************************************** BIBLICAL "ONENESS" "...and they shall be one flesh." Gen. 1:24 "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:5,6 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:22 "So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Rom. 12:5 "That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus

Christ." Rom. 15:6 "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." 1Cor. 3:6-8 "What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." 1Cor. 6:16,17 "For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1Cor. 10:17 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 1Cor.12:12 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked: 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." 1Cor. 12:12-27 "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." 2Cor. 13:11 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Eph. 5:30-32 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;" Phil. 1:27 "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind." Phil. 2:2 "Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:" 1Peter 3:8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7 Despite the controversy in 1John 5:7, God has protected His word, and in principle and truth, 1 John 5:7 is an accurate statement. God, though They be Three, are One spiritually.

There are Three who are God, not gods.

M
To C1, U said: I have been polite but let us to see are you polite or not? you said: You still have more garbage, You are a hypocrite, I fear that you only condemn yourself further with your continued lies and attempts to deceive people are you really as you said I have not insulted you even one time?!!! To C2, I thank you for your trying, I hope our searching going on like this that every one showing his proofs not like the way of uneducated people like C1. You said : IN NATURE: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20 I agree with you here. Now let us exam your examples: You gave me: The Universe is a unity of three elements; space, matter, and time. Space is a unity of three elements; height, width, and depth and so on but I have a question here in your example, Is time means Universe or is height means width? Same thing apply to all? While the trinity faith saying that Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God. The nature of son equal to nature of father also with Holy Spirit. It means God, God and God are one God. Assume if we said there is big Sun, medium Sun and small Sun. then you say they are one Sun. Is this accepted in the mind and nature? No, we will say Sun, Sun and Sun means three Suns but not one Suns. Same thing is applying here, God and God and God means 3 Gods. This is about the way of counting but about applying of 3 like you claimed that the Unity of three elements.. and so on. You means that because the creations is three God is three. I can say it is mistaken idea because also the creations are TWO like the pair of human(male and female) also SEVEN the levels of the horizon and levels of the atom and so on of numbers in the creatures. I think if there is any one believe on God in two he will give the examples of any two in creatures. But to have right view in the NATURE that you will find God is only one because of its punctuality and its arrangements. If there is more than one God, the Gods will fight every one want to extend his kingdom as the country do not need more than one King or one President, how about the world? Definitely, it needs only one God. Every organization or assembly or every thing needs to one Director. And I thank you in your BIBLICAL "ONENESS" That you had proved the oneness there means ONENESS of PORPOSE but not in literally. Like in (Gen. 1:24) Is the two pairs(man and woman) means one person in one body?! I think here if any one heard you he will call you mad. Man and woman are two persons but not one person and two fleshes but not one flesh. In Greek, `heis' means `one' numerically (masc.) `hen' means `one' in unity or essence (neut.) the word used here is `hen' and not `heis'. The word ONE here means one in figuratively way which refer to one aim. Same thing apply to all verses which you had given me also in (John 10:30): "I and my Father are one." Here the word used by John is `hen' and not `heis'.

But the problem which made by Trinitarians that they claim Jesus is God beside Father, God ,The Creator and co-equal after all that they say they are not two Gods but one God. Then why did Jesus say For my Father is greater than I? if they are one God then no needing for comparing! I think any one reads my Proofs, he will realize that Jesus is not equal to God and he never was God. I think after all of that we had finished about Jesus Godhead. Who have the mind he will understand the truth. Thank you C2.

M
by the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Sorry! I forgot to speak about (1 John 5:7) which C2 said: Despite the controversy in 1John 5:7, God has protected His word, and in principle and truth, 1 John 5:7 is an accurate statement. This verse mentioned in King James Version(KJV) but omitted by other Versions like: 1. New International Version (NIV) omitted it and mentioned in footnote [7,8] LATE manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. [8] And there are three that testify on earth: the ( not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century ) 2. Revised Standard Version (RSV) also omitted it. 3. New American Standard Bible (NASB) lacked it and mentioned in footnote: A few LATE mss add ...in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit . 4. Amplified Bible (AMP) mentioned in footnote The italicized section is found only in LATE manuscripts 5. New Living Translation (NLT) deleted it and mentioned in footnote 5:7 Some VERY LATE manuscripts add in heaven--the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth. 6. New King James Version (NKJV) lack it and mentioned in footenote: 5:8 NU-Text and MText omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five VERY LATE manuscripts contain these words in Greek. 7. American Standard Version (ASV) canceled it. 8. Darby Translation (DARBY) also canceled it. This verse was added as in (NIV) after the sixteenth century. Is not this playing of word of God which proved that there is no authenticity on the bible now a days-. dear Ray, you said: God has protected His word, but did he do? Which version is word of God?!! This which God revealed to Mohammed in the Holy Quran before 1400 years ago as its meaning : 78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. 79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. How did Mohammed know that?! That because he is prophet whom God sent him and this knowledge is one of his mark. Also there is more examples of distortion which made in the bible by their own hand like (Mark 16:9-20), (John 7:53-8:11) and so on.