An Interview with Thomas Hirschhorn Author(s): Benjamin H. D. Buchloh Reviewed work(s): Source: October, Vol.

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An Interview with Thomas Hirschhorn*

BENJAMIN H. D. BUCHLOH

Benjamin Buchloh: Whenever I see a work of yours, a typical art historian's question comes to mind: Who was more important for you, Warhol or Beuys? Thomas Hirschhorn: Those were the two artists I discovered for myself in the late 1970s. From 1978 to about 1983 I attended the School of Applied Arts in Zurich, and in 1978-79, each had a one-man show, Beuys at the Kunstmuseum and Warhol at the Kunsthaus Zurich. They were equally important; I could say that both were in fact my teachers, though I never studied under them. Buchloh: What you learned from them was to resolve the apparent contradiction between Warhol's insistence on an aesthetic of technical reproduction and Beuys's continuous evocation of an individual and intense materiality, a kind of secularized magic? Hirschhorn: Absolutely. What I like tremendously about the work of Beuys-beyond the his social engagement, of course, which led to defeats as we know-is fact that he revolutionized the idea of sculpture by introducing materials like felt, fat, and conducting materials such as copper that had never been used before. And he did all of that together with his shamanism, which I take seriously as a form of artistic expression. Buchloh: But you don't adopt the role of the artist as shaman for yourself? Hirschhorn: Not at all. Quite the contrary. But I find it highly interesting as an artistic tactic. Both Beuys and Warhol outed themselves as artists at a relatively late age, or at least didn't do so in their earliest years. Warhol is for me by no means the apparent opposite of Beuys. Having myself come out of a school for applied arts, and initially having planned to become a graphic designer, I see Warhol's work as something impossible to surpass. He continued to be an illustrator and a designer, and although he conformed to the time in which he lived, his expression was highly critical. Buchloh: Is that what Europeans still think? Do you really see his work as critical? Hirschhorn: Fine. Youlive in America. I believe it is. And, of course, what impresses

This interview was transcribed by Philipp Angermeyer and translated by Russell Stockman.

OCTOBER 2005, pp. 77-100. ? 2005 BenjaminH. D. Buchloh. 113, Summer

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me about both of these figures-as human beings-is their extreme engagement with their art. Buchloh: one would describe the contrast a bit schematically, one could say that in If Warhol, we have glamour and design as seduction. And on the other side, in Beuys, we have magic and transubstantiation in the shamanistic tradition. In your work, these two opposing strategies find a quite remarkable synthesis:you perform the travestyof glamour and seduction, and instead of relying on magic and suggesting mystical transformation, articulate a continuous criticism of reification, a transformation of a different kind. Hirschhorn: Warhol'sproduction is perfectly simple, clear, American: he gave forms to things and shoved them in the public's face. With Beuys it is not primarily the mysticism that intrigues me; what moves me is his continuous appeal to the public, the fact that he was constantly talking, approaching people, carrying on conversations. He didn't see art as something sacred but as a contribution to the ongoing discussion. I learned that from Joseph Beuys. Buchloh: Then one can say that you have changed their specific positions radically. On the one hand, your work emphatically affirms the need for industrial production as a model for artistic production. And on the other, it affirms the need for communicative structures that appeal to as many participants as possible. Hirschhorn: That is what I have tried to learn from Warhol and Beuys. Buchloh:Both artists were originally engaged in a form of radical democratization. Obviously Beuys's model originated in the aftermath of trauma and some forms of religious substitution, if not attempts at redemption. Warhol's, by contrast-clearly more American-took its point of departure in the populist utopianism that had been delivered in America by commercial design and consumer culture. These are two very contradictory approaches, yet after all they concretize the very structures in which most of us have experienced secularization, democratization, and the semblance of equality in the last few decades. I would say that this dialectic of cult and consumption is one of the foundations of your work as well, yet it is further radicalized and still more secularized. Warhol ended up where he began, as a producer of advertising. Fetishism and seduction, advertising and design (which in the end became merely a new style in Warhol) are again deployed in your work, yet with a newly invigorated critical radicality. As for Beuys, I would say that his promises of "art by all" were increasingly undermined precisely by his cultic stance. It was essentially a total deification of a single artist, and no longer had anything at all to do with the radically democratic intent with which he started out. Hirschhorn: Correct, but I also admire these artists precisely because they were so radical and so fully engaged in their work, if perhaps wrongly so. Now, after a few years have passed, one responds to their work critically. That is why I can say, "I love Joseph Beuys and I love Andy Warhol."

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Buchloh: That brings me to the next question: How do you relate to the generation that preceded you, namely the Conceptual artists? I have frequently wondered whether their project of institutional critique was important to you. For example, Daniel Buren's work at some point performed the most the museum, and radical critique of existing institutions, especially Lawrence Weiner's work engaged in the most precise contestation of traditional materializations of art. How did you reverse their positions and return to a position that is very much concerned with material production? Hirschhorn: I could now simply lean back and somewhat high-handedly produce an answer to your question. I could criticize these approaches to institutional critique on the part of Daniel Buren. I don't wish to do this, and cannot, since I have to say in all honesty that I totally blocked out the generation that preceded me. Not because I knew nothing about them, but because I was so caught up in the very idea of being an artist, or not being an artist, that I never even considered this question of institutional critique at all. And it would be highly inappropriate now if I were to look back and say that my art was a reaction to, or a critical rejection of, theirs. But I would say that because of the Minimalist design quality of their work, I had to turn away from it. Buchloh: I suppose you refer to the highly stylized, reductivist, and not to say purist, design qualities that eventually became evident in Conceptual art? Would those not have provoked you, and determined your response to be one of chaotic, polymorph materials and impure structures? Hirschhorn: Of course. Naturally I had a problem with the excesses of design, because I know what corporate identity is, and I know what advertising is. That is obvious. But, most important, I never shared the notion of a critique of institutions. That was not a problem for me. And I found that conflict in the work of Buren; I speak only of him because he is the most radical. Because his work is so totally designed, it suddenly raises utterly strange questions: Where does the design end, for example? Or does it? Buchloh: Where does the radicality end and where does the design begin? Hirschhorn: Precisely. And of course where one sees the limits of the work one sees that he is in a conflict, and I noticed them fairly early. In the work in which he makes museum guards wear striped vests, for example: on the one hand, that project is a logical continuation of his ideas. On the other, people come into the picture, and they can only go along with it because they work in that museum and are obliged to wear these vests. Here we must confront the question of the individual and of free choice. Buchloh: So one could argue that you turned away from the critique of institutions because it seemed more important to you to focus on other elements of discourse, such as advertising, design, and commodity culture. To bring those elements into critical focus struck you as much more pressing and urgent than the critique of museums? Hirschhorn: That is totally correct. As I said, the museum was important to me.

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Naturally I want to change the museum. I would like to see museums open twenty-four hours with free admission all the time. I like going to museumsarchaeological, local history, natural history museums. I also go to museums for a formal reason, or for an artistic, sculptural reason. I am interested in how things are displayed because I actually find that display is a form of physical experience. One needs time and space to present and display, and that has always been highly interesting to me. And museums make very important contributions. For example, after the Berlin Wall came down, I remember visiting the museums in the eastern sector two or three times. I recall one exhibition, how monuments were designed during the DDR period. It was incredible; those were the most beautiful exhibitions I've seen. Because you want to display something and make something clear, you want to give space and time to that experience of the display. I find that definition and usage of space very important. Buchloh: Let's move to the question of a criticism of sculptural, instead of instituYour work, as sculpture, transcends even the most tional, conventions. radical changes that occurred on the level of materials and morphologies in Pop and post-Minimalist sculpture. No one knew at first what your work actually was. Was it a painting or a relief? Was it a collage or an object? Was it an installation? Can you take it with you? Can you dismantle it? Can you throw it away? Do you have to collect it? This was an incredibly radical attack on what, at that point in the late 1970s, was the most advanced sculptural orthodoxy, namely site-specificity. Suddenly you came along and undermined all of that by using materials that were seemingly interchangeable, that did not necessarily have to be preserved. You opened the production of sculpture to other realms of experience that post-Minimalist sculpture had totally shut out, namely the realm of the everyday and the memory of history. Furthermore, you repositioned sculpture at a level of crude banality and tawdry cheapness that would have scared most of the artists of the precedmuch as they might have wished to orient themselves ing generation, around Pop art conventions (such as Dan Graham). That was one of the first shocks that your work triggered in me when I saw your Skulptur Sortier Station pavilion in Mfinster in 1997.1 For me that was one of your most important works, in which all of these questions were approached in a wholly new way: What makes sculpture public? What could nowadays be called specific about the site of sculpture? What are the proper materials for sculpture? What are the different discourses that can be addressed by the experience of sculpture? And perhaps most important, can historical reflection be one of them? Hirschhorn: Just so that we keep everything in mind: I said earlier that Beuys opened up for me this issue of materials in his attack on the rigidity of traditional sculptural materials. Furthermore, he opened the question of
1. Hirschhorn's SkulpturSortierStation was first installed in the international exhibition Sculpture Projects, organized by Kasper Koenig in Miinster, Germany in 1997.

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sculptural function with his idea of social sculpture. By contrast, I didn't remotely want to enter a dimension that had anything to do with either nature or with the esoteric, with the spirit, with mystical processes. Rather, my idea was that I wanted to make sculpture out of a plan, out of the second dimension. I said to myself, "I want to make sculpture, but I don't want to create any volumes." I only want to work in the third dimension-to conceive sculpture out of the plan, the idea, the sketch. That is what I want to make a sculpture with: the thinking and conceiving, the various plans and the planning. Buchloh: Transforming an industrial logo, for example, into a sculpture: Would that qualify as an example? Hirschhorn: Exactly. You have a plan, and then create it in the third dimension. Voila. That additional dimension is the work. Buchloh: And why is that translation into the third dimension desirable? Hirschhorn: It's not that it is desirable. It is rather that when you transfer a plan or a sketch into the third dimension, it becomes an altogether different proposition, and also changes its very substance. Buchloh: And does it address itself to the viewers' demands ? Or does it merely address the concept of sculpture? Hirschhorn: No, it naturally addresses the viewers-quite directly in fact, just like the protesters that we see in demonstrations, where some group is protesting with signs or logos, or with shapes representing something. They claim they have no jobs, so they nail coffins together, right? Journalists demonstrate because somebody wants to impose a ban on reporting, so they fasten tape over their mouths. This is how their work addresses itself directly to the viewer, and it simply has nothing to do with the notion of sculpture, because these ideas of mass, form, and volume are simply not behind it any longer. What I have tried to do is to put together different elements, pictures, forms, and photographs, so that they take on a substance that one can translate simply and directly. When I first made sculptures such as the Skulptur Sortier Station, I started quite simply with these logos, and gave a form to that material. But at the same time, of course, I also wanted to generate a certain resistance, because there is also work behind it; although you might now say it's not a great deal, my own work is in it. That is still important to me. So it is not only somehow an enlarged logo, it is some kind of homemade thing that someone created; it is a sculpted logo. Buchloh: The Skulptur Sortier Station revealed two dimensions to me quite dramatically. Although they had appeared earlier in your work, I never saw them as clearly: the astonishing fact that your work as sculpture turned again and again to actual history, a feature that differentiates your work and sets it apart from previous generations of sculptors. For example, the fact that in the Skulptur Sortier Station-along with the corporate logos of Mercedes, for introduce a sudden glimpse of the DegenerateArt exhibition of example-you 1937 with the replica of the sculpture of Rudolf Haizmann.

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Throughout the 1960s and 1970s it was practically unthinkable that one could encounter a historical dimension or reflection in sculpture. Your work suddenly transported the spectator back into history, back, more precisely, to the political history of art. Yet you do not simply pay homage to figures of the past; you seem to want to facilitate a form of historical recollection in a present that no longer has any desire for historical memory, that even actively tries to suppress and eradicate it as much as possible. Hirschhorn: Absolutely. That is my artistic responsibility, and I want to do that. But on the other hand this engagement is also ... it isn't a matter of history. It is a statement about what one finds important. And I am making that statement in forms that aren't my own because I feel altars are something we know, whose forms are familiar. This third dimension has nothing to do with the form of a sculpture but with some other form. And then there is something else that I want: it is, of course, an attack, a conscious one, on architecture, or on art in buildings, or on art in public space. Or on "immortal" art, in quotes-question mark, exclamation point. Buchloh:This brings us straight to the next question, which concerns the typology Your of your sculptures, and one type in particular that you call your "altars." the artists for whom you built altars, are relatively diverse in certain choices, ways but in others are quite specific. Otto Freundlich,2 Robert Walser,3and Ingeborg Bachmann4 are very fragile, unusual figures in the history of modernism. Some of them, like Walser and Freundlich, were relatively unknown figures, and Bachmann is probably the least known of the three now. All three were highly complex, difficult, tragic artists. That can't be mere coincidence. Could you say something about those choices, or were they simply personal selections? Hirschhorn:No, of course I can say something about it. But I should add that I That is an important didn't make an altar for Robert Walser,I made a "kiosk." difference to stress: the work for Robert Walser is a kiosk. There are four altars: one for Raymond Carver,5 the American writer; one for Piet Mondrian; one for Ingeborg Bachmann; and one for Otto Freundlich. Of course, Mondrian is in a sense a marginal figure as well, as a person, as an artist, as a loner. I selected figures about whom I could really say, "I love you," about whom I really meant it; it was a real commitment. And on the other
Otto Freundlich (1878-1943), important early painter of abstraction, member of the Cologne 2. Progressivists Group and later the group Abstraction/Creation in Paris before he was deported by the Nazi Occupation forces in Vichy France, perished in the Maidanek concentration camp. 3. Robert Walser (1887-1956), the Swiss novelist and author of short stories, discovered by Walter Benjamin and considered as a naive counterfigure to Franz Kafka, committed himself to an asylum in order to be able to write. 4. Ingeborg Bachmann (1926-1973), Austrian novelist and poet, major figure of postwar German literature, from the early sixties on lived in Rome, where she died in a fire in her home. 5. Raymond Carver (1938-1988), American author who described the life of the lower middle class struggling to survive in the intensifying competition of postwar consumer culture.

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hand, you're right, I selected them because of the tragic nature of their lives. For example, I find reading Meine Schriften by Otto Freundlich really amazing. But I could not say, "I love Picasso." Do you understand? That's something I cannot say. I respect his work, I suppose. But I can't say that. Buchloh: His work has, of course, achieved such a position of authority and total acceptance. By contrast, your altars and kiosks set a certain process of recollection in motion with the figures that you foreground, and one is reminded of the difficulties of their situations. Yet your efforts at a resuscitation of their memory does not aim at a new cult of these artists. Rather, if one actually gets to know Ingeborg Bachmann, or one gets to know Robert Walser or Otto of our supposedly Freundlich, one gains a more complex understanding modernist history, and of what these artists were actually engaged with, and had to live through. Hirschhorn: Absolutely. I agree. With Mondrian you don't end up with a star cult either. He is too rigid, or too low-maintenance. It doesn't work, and that's why I selected only these four figures, even though I wished of course that there could have been more. I am only making four monuments. Because, again, it is like a sheet of paper, when I have a plan and it has four corners. There is room inside and out. It could in fact have been seven, or six, but I wanted it to be like a limitation of a plan. In that sense, four is enough. Buchloh: That brings up an additional, important, and related question. You have developed a very precise typology. Within that, could you demarcate

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the differences between a kiosk, an altar, and a monument? There are four monuments, four altars, and I don't know how many kiosks? Hirschhorn: Eight. I can explain it to you. The first type, the four altars, are works for these four personalities in public space. Each can be exhibited and transplanted from one site to another. They always have to stand someplace outside. One is in a private collection. Another is in a museum. The Carver altar, for example, has been exhibited three times so far. Raymond The Ingeborg Bachmann altar as been exhibited twice. The second type is the kiosk. There are eight kiosks, and they actually grew out of an "Art in Architecture" project at the University of Zurich. I proposed a project in the foyer of an institute for brain research for a limited period of time. I wanted to create a separate room that would be there for only six months, a kind of kiosk of the sort in prisons or in hospitals. You enter these so as not necessarily to be in one space but in another space. And I dedicated each of these kiosks to an artist, poet, or writer. These works no longer exist, as they were set up only for six months. The first one was dedicated to Robert Walser. Then came Emmanuel Bove, the writer, then Fernand Leger, and then Ingeborg Bachmann got one as well. Then Meret Oppenheim got a kiosk. Then came Otto Freundlich, he got one as well. And then there were two more-Emil Nolde, and Liubov Popova was the eighth one. A kiosk was simply a small place where information could be found about this artist, about his or her work. And it was important for me to know that the information about them was present and accessible in these kiosks for a limited period of time. And then the third type of work is the monument. The monument is different because it requires the help of neighbors; it is created with the assistance of other people. And I actually want to make four monuments, even though I have only completed three so far. The first three were for the philosophers Spinoza, Deleuze, and Bataille; and the fourth one will be for Gramsci. And these are also public works, but they reflect something of the local area, or residents, because they are more complex and larger. The Spinoza monument in Amsterdam was the smallest. We only had to find a sex shop in the city's red-light district whose proprietor would allow us to install the monument in front of his shop and provide the electricity. That was the most modest monument. Buchloh: You actually conceive of sculpture more as an event, rather than as an object, let alone a monument? Hirschhorn: Absolutely. That was very important; that is what I wanted. I wanted this cluster of meanings, since it is many things-not only a sculpture but also a meeting place. Buchloh: What then is the difference between sculpture as "event" and sculpture as spectacle? Isn't that a dangerous proximity? Hirschhorn: No, no danger at all. Because my monument produces something, it generates something. That is the intention, at least; it is not just to be looked

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at, but you participate. In fact, "participation" can be a person sitting at the bar and drinking beer. In Kassel, for example, it was important that the Bataille Monument included a bar and a snack counter. Not because it is important that people refresh themselves, or eat or drink, but because it presented a chance for conversation or a place to meet. This actually happens with my monuments: people often sit there, drinking beer, and I wanted to emphasize that aspect. For that reason my monuments aren't spectacles for me but rather events. An event is also something you can't plan ahead of time because you never know what will happen. And in fact that is what happened. If I already know in advance what kind of experience will be generated, it wouldn't be an event, it wouldn't be an experience. I feel that the condition of spectacle always results from thinking of an event in terms of two groups, one that produces something and another that looks at it. That was not the case here. And it is possible to create an event that will be so difficult and complicated and incredibly exhausting that it will alwaysmake excessive demands on the spectator. The first to be overburdened was me, the next were my coworkers, or the people from the housing project, and then perhaps the third, I hope, was the visitor. In this sense I believe that if there is such constant challenge, one can fend off the spectacle. And naturally part of the challenge is that it is limited in duration. Buchloh: One of the criticisms raised of your work, especially in regard to your Bataille Monument,was that it pretended to communicate with a local audience in a way that could actually never happen. Is the mere intention or the actuality of communication a criterion for you to evaluate the success of your work ? Hirschhorn: That is very easy to answer. First, I didn't want to exclude anyone. I find that anyone who thinks that local Muslim kids could not get involved with Bataille makes a huge mistake. I reject that strongly. That would mean that someone was excluded from the outset, for what reason I don't know. Why should they be shut out? Why would anybody say they can't handle it? I don't buy that. Sadly,it is precisely this argument that frequently comes from a leftist public, then I am obliged position. If I say I want to make a work for a collective to, and it is my desire to make a work in which I don't ever exclude anyone. Buchloh: it seems that you quite deliberately set up the most extreme confrontaYet tions. A Bataille monument in a Turkishworkers' housing project in Germany, or a Spinoza monument in Amsterdam's red-light district: those are sites that create the extreme confrontations that are important for the understanding of your work. If you had placed a Spinoza monument in the inner courtyard of Amsterdam University,it would have been less interesting... Hirschhorn:Of course-absolutely. I am the artist, and when I work in an open space I decide where to place my work. It interests me that my work has to defend itself in any surroundings, in any sector, and fight for its autonomy. That is another dimension that is very important to me.

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Buchloh:But that in itself is a rather utopian assumption, isn't it? I Hirschhorn: hope it is not a utopian one, of course, but I would say that it is a radical, nonexclusive stance. It is a political stance, although of course this is not political art. What I keep saying is precisely that I want to make my work political in the sense that I do not exclude anyone. Then there is another argument I try to make very clear (and I realize that there are misunderstandings): the first aim of the Bataille monument was to generate friendship and social interaction, and the second goal was to provide an opportunity to learn something about Georges Bataille. I have argued, for example, that when someone sits next to the monument, he or she beomes a part of the monument. And, strictly speaking, when children are playing in the TV studio, or making films about their own reality, that is then a part of the Bataille monument as well. There was not a single book in the library by or about Georges Bataille, but books on the themes of Georges Bataille, because I wanted it to go beyond him. And ultimately I never talked to the youngsters I worked with about Georges Bataille. What I wanted instead was to foreground a certain dimension of the work of Georges Bataille, where he talks of "la perte," or loss-where he talks about being stretched beyond one's limits, where he talks about something transcendent. It is possible that, in the end, Georges Bataille's name and his work could be replaced by others. Buchloh:So when people talk about a failure to communicate is that altogether false? Hirschhorn: I try to make this issue very concrete. That is why I said that my presence on the site was not required for communication or discussion with people, but simply in the role of a caretaker, to check that everything was functioning. Buchloh:One might still misunderstand you, and argue that you benevolently overlook the actual conditions of total alienation and reification that govern the everyday life of the Turkish working class in Germany. Worse yet, one could argue that you assume that their fundamentally alienated living and working conditions could be improved with relative ease, through spontaneous acts of understanding, reading, communication, and exchange. That-for better or worse-is the utopian dimension of your work. From a less utopian, but more pragmatically political position, one would argue that under such conditions it is impossible to generate communication and understanding with aesthetic tools alone. Isn't it highly improbable, for example, that Spinoza will suddenly become an event, right in the middle of Amsterdam's red-light district? What do you say to such critics? Hirschhorn: Nothing is impossible with art. Nothing. Buchloh:Ah, yes, that is the type of conviction that emerged from the Beuys tradition, right? Warhol would have said the opposite: that nothing is possible with art, nothing but business. Hirschhorn: The other possibility is that by letting this autonomy shine through, by

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holding fast to this affirmation of art, I want people to think, to reflect, okay? That is what I want: reflection about my work, art in general, the passage of time, the world, reality. It is possible, for example, to talk with Turkish kids about art, because I don't talk with them as a social worker but as an artist, as someone who believes in art. And those are the points for me that are extremely important, and I believe that art makes such activity possible. I am not here to rehabilitate anyone, or not to rehabilitate them. That is not my job. I quite clearly reject that. At the same time I find a cynical stance impossible, because it creates no autonomy or activity for me. Buchloh:But why could you not also depart from the critical and cynical potential of art, with its own subversive dimension? What about, for example, that aspect in the Warhol tradition that goes back to Francis Picabia? Hirschhorn:Well, with Picabia I have to wonder. With Duchamp, for example, I could even say that I love him. Not Picabia. That is quite clear. Not Picasso either. It is not about morals or anything. That's not the issue; I don't like moralizing. But of course I like to argue, to get engaged, and I feel that art makes that possible. Naturally my work raises an incredible number of questions. There is criticism, and I don't try to avoid it. But the argument isn't theoretical, I feel. That is a major difference. My work is something that I feel, that I have to make. I, Thomas Hirschhorn, simply, really, not only will make a statement theoretically but will also attempt to sustain this statement in reality. I can then say, for example, that when I maintain that art is not about communication, that is true, because I have not created any kind of communication. But I was there in the field and have tried to defend art and uphold its autonomy. Buchloh:When you say that you truly believe in the possibilities of art, then I start to wonder where the intensely subversive, antiaesthetic dimension of your work originates? Your work generates a continuous dialectic between aesthetic and antiaesthetic impulses, emphasizing disintegration as much as construction. For example, if you suddenly align sculpture with the forms and processes of spontaneously erected, collective altars in which people's emotions are haplessly manipulated, you seem to affirm a resurgence of ritual and cult value in sculptural experience in the present. Such a strategy appears as an incredible assault, a slap in the face of all modernist and postmodernist sculpture. Does your belief in art comprise this critical antiaesthetic, or is that merely a contradiction? Hirschhorn: that isn't a contradiction. For me, you see, there is no high and low No, art, or... Buchloh:But objectively they exist, right? That is a contrast that we all have to deal with. Perhaps it doesn't exist for you, but socially it certainly does. We have not resolved the conflicts between mass culture and high culture. Not even Andy Warhol was able to do that. I Hirschhorn: too will have trouble doing away with it. But believe me, I am not in

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this to fight a lost cause. And I am not in this to shore up something that has already been established. I want to work on this notion of an exalted high art, a plus-value,which doesn't come from one's own mental activity but from history, which somehow derives from external values. I question that, and I criticize that. And that is why I create my work with my own materials. That is very important to me. I am not in this to say from the outset that I won't make it, but rather to say that it is possible to work with incredibly, you could even say miserable-not only discouraging, but miserable-and truly modest results. I try to give form to my ideas. And if I am to give them the kind of form I want, I have to work with materials that everybody knows. They have no special value, and they suggest something other than what I am using them for. It's not a matter of antiaesthetics; in truth I could force the issue and say that I find these materials beautiful. It is not about that; it is a matter of a different purpose. If a woman puts tape around her suitcase because she fears that it might burst open, she doesn't think about whether it looks nice. She simply wants to fix something that presents a problem to her. And she thereby creates a form, or uses the materials that interest me for what is actually needed: energy. Not Beuysian energy, but energy in the sense of something that connects people, that can connect you with others. And certainly not quality, which-and now that you speak of high art-wants to separate us, to divide us. Because there are only very few people, after all (and as a Swiss, I know something about this) who can afford quality, who can afford quality judgments in general. And I loathe that, and oppose it, because it shuts out the vast majority of all the rest simply, quite simply, because they can't afford it. Buchloh:Do you consider yourself to be a Marxist? I Hirschhorn: am, but it would be presumptuous of me to say "Iam a Marxist,"because I haven't studied it, because I haven't thought about it in any academic way. And also, you understand, because I don't want to. I believe that as an artist, I want to make my work political, to be responsible for each of my actions. And there are many actions for which I am responsible that aren't any good, but I want to be responsible for every act that has to do with my work. That interests me. Declaring myself to be a Marxist, translating this theory into practice, would also limit me. For example, in the question of my public, of whom I address. You see? I deliberately eliminate that specific question. I admit that one could criticize that elimination, but it's not naivete, and it's not that I haven't thought about it. But it's an element that, if I wish to be active, and I do, if I want to make something, if I want to give something, I have to eliminate that type of specificity. Buchloh:Since I started with a question that was odd I'd like to end this conversation with a question that is equally odd: a proposal to project your simultaneous enthusiasm for Warhol and Beuys back into history, and to ask

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whether you also initially had to choose between your love for Alexandr Rodchenko and your love for Kurt Schwitters? Hirschhorn: was the case with Warhol and Beuys, there is no "either or." I love As them equally, and they were both on my scarves. I've never been afraid of contradictions because we are here to generate them, not smooth them away. I feel that there is a certain energy in contradictions. I love Schwitters for the explosive force that you still see in his work today. But I love him more specifically for the fact that he built the Merzbauthree times, against incredible resistance and with unimaginable, admirable persistence. I knew Rodchenko's work quite well, at first from his graphic design. After all, he was the artist who, after painting wonderful pictures and making fabulous photographs, made extraordinary posters and graphic design, but also made clothes for workers. He ignored all of these divisions and media restrictions. Buchloh: If one were to formulate the relationship between Rodchenko and Schwitters as an antithetical situation, one could say that Rodchenko articulated what could have become subjects in a utopian socialist society, and Schwitters collected the shambles of bourgeois subjectivity, of what had actually been left. But you seem to be neither concerned with what is left to us, nor naively preoccupied with a utopian transformation of the world through design. Just as in the earlier opposition between Warhol and Beuys, you inhabit a third position, one that creates both travesty and subversion while simultaneously inducing historical reflection. I tried to describe earlier how this explicitly historical, not to say mnemonic, dimension in your work insists on a critical reflection of history (in sculpture, of all places). Thus-unlike Warhol-it figures itself in manifest opposition to the enforced amnesia of an advanced consumer culture that increasingly annihilates historical experience altogether. Does that seem somewhat accurate?
Hirschhorn: Absolutely. Buchloh: What one can recognize in Schwitters's Merzbau, his Cathedral of Erotic

Misery,is that memory emerges literally from collecting the discarded remnants of the everyday, from uncovering obsolete objects and materials. This sense of obsolescence provides us with a memory space that still appears to be accessible, even in late capitalist society. Rodchenko of course articulates precisely the opposite, since he compensates for the forgetting of the present moment through the opening of the utopian dimension, by creating something new and radical in which a truly free experience might be possible. This dimension and perspective, however, can surely no longer be credited to design in our society. Although design still interests you a great deal, right? Hirschhorn: Yes. One ought to add that when looking at Rodchenko, I recognized for the first time that failure is not the issue. Schwitters was already clearly a solitary figure, maintaining his ideesfixe, and his stance of a refusal to suffer but instead to simply carry on.

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Buchloh: One feature of your exceptional book Les plaintifs, les bites, les politiques that has always intrigued me is its specific referral to various design coventions.6 For example, at one point the book invokes Rodchenko's Constructivist/Productivist design, from the moment when it had devolved state socialism. In another into propaganda for Stalin's authoritarian moment, often side by side with the first, you cite modernist design, which in its own tragic history, in certain instances, suddenly became fascist. Or, just as often, you make references to contemporary corporate design, such as your favorite Chanel advertisement, or to cigarette and perfume ads. When you approach these logos and design languages, you often pose questions in what seems to be a rhetoric of false naivete, or perhaps more accurately, a Brechtian dialectic: "I don't know what it is, but I love this." You confront yourself with the catastrophic outcome of what was once a utopian design culture, and admit that you cannot resist its seduction anymore than anybody else can. You ask the question, "Why can't I detach myself, and simply state that these are regimes of control and strategies of domination?" Hirschhorn: That's very good. I can assure you that no one has formulated that as you have, of course, and you have already spoken about this book and its contents two or three times. That has helped me tremendously and also helped my work. The book was published in 1995, which means that I made those works in 1993 and 1994. I was trying to settle accounts, in a way. Buchloh: With your own past? Hirschhorn: Exactly, and especially with my past as a graphic designer. But when I confront such things as the Chanel design, I simply have to say, "Good, no one could do it better, this type and everything. That can't be improved upon." At a certain point defiance is no longer possible. That is why I also have to say programmatically, "Quality no, energy yes!"Because there are in fact certain pretensions of quality. Our eyes function in such and such a way... Buchloh: In such a way that we cannot defy authority? Hirschhorn: Yes, precisely. If you cannot defy it by addressing it head-on, or attacking it, then other forms have to be found, that clearly indicate that quality doesn't affect or interest me. And I tried to do that with Les plaintifs, les bites, les politiques: to take seriously this tightness, this simplistic blandness. I take it seriously myself, and quite simply accept it, this first degre. Buchloh: There is a counterforce to the allures of design in your work in your that one could call an excess of information, strategies of accumulation materials, and objects. It seems that Georges Bataille's concept plays a major role in your work and is evident in this endless overload of objects and information, of accumulations which lead to devaluation. It seems as though you wanted to confront viewers with the necessity of recognizing the chaotic
6. The book Lesplaintifs, les betes,lespolitiqueswas published by the Centre genevois de gravure contemporaine in 1995.

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multiplicity and urgency of your questions, and at the same time to foil their attempts at coming to terms with them. Could you say something more about the concept of "excess"? Hirschhorn: Yes, absolutely. If philosophers interest me, Bataille is definitely one of them. Philosophers help me in my life. When I first encountered Bataille's concept of expenditure, I had the feeling that I had never read such a thing before, and I instantly felt in total agreement with that. This assertiveness, of constant acts of giving and challenging others-that is what I wanted to do in my work. And that is what Georges Bataille also describes in his book La Part maudite. This idea of the potlatch is based on challenging others by giving, so that they reciprocate with an offering to me. This motive is very important in my work: I want to make a lot, give a lot. And when I say give-in the sense of "giving form," not making form but giving form-I want to do that in order to challenge the other people, the viewers, to get equally involved, so that they also have to give. I always have the feeling that I am still making too little. There is too little there. It is still not dense enough, and I want it to be dense. I want it loaded. Also, it is very important to me that the gallery space is not simply a white cube-after all, who can afford empty white spaces? I don't want any white spaces! This luxury, I realized, is no longer something merely expensive; it is something that doesn't exist. These empty white spaces rarify objects to intimidate the viewer. For that very reason it is very important to me that my work always have a lot of elements, a lot of material. Buchloh: It always struck me that your work's excessive accumulations of pictures, objects, and structures mimetically followed the actual governing principles of overproduction and the technologies of incessantly multiplying meaningless images. If one compares your stance with the original historical context and concept of Duchamp's singular readymades, one recognizes a totally different quantitative and temporal dimension in the present day, in which images and objects proliferate and invade us by the thousands at every turn we take. Hirschhorn: Absolutely, I agree. I would also like to say something else that is not frequently understood. I don't believe in the superiority of the single image because I know that the single image is utilized as a tool of exerting power. Let's take the example of 9/11-this single image of the collapsing towers, and the resulting ruins-and how this single image wants to have power over me. Although we know perfectly well that there are ruins in Grozny, and that there are ruins in Palestine, and that there are ruins all over the world, this picture alone claims to have the greatest power over me. I want to combat this power by producing a huge number of other images. Buchloh:Your accumulations of images then induce a process of decentralization ... Hirschhorn: Exactly. Not necessarily contradictory pictures, but rather showing the same thing from completely different perspectives ... Buchloh: What impressed me so much when I saw your Airport Worldfor the first time

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in Chicago was the fact that the sheer quantity of information forced spectators to give up their desire for the false monolithic centrality of a traditionally conceived and unified work. But perhaps more important, one was also forced to see the existing political links between objects, stories, structures, and situations. Your work suddenly dispelled not only the monolithic isolation of a traditional work, but it also opened up a global way of reading and recognizing relations between phenomena that were previously disconnected and hidden. I Hirschhorn: am in fact concerned that this mass of information might have previously appeared as unrelated. Obviously, I do not only make political statements and assume responsibility; I also want to achieve a sculptural impact. Therefore, I work with and create forms that reflect how I experience the world, how I am forced to confront reality, and how I understand the age in which I am living. For me, that means first of all to not create any spaces where one can stand back and maintain distance. Second, it means not to set up any kinds of hierarchies. Third, it means to break through onedimensional relationships, to try to split up centered vantage points, and to make singular viewpoints impossible. To get back to the work that you are talking about: it is for these reasons that the connections are so important for me. They don't necessarily have to be real connections, although in the AirportWorld they were real. Buchloh:By establishing these seemingly infinite relations and offering an excess of information, your "displays"deny any hierarchical mode of experience. If, for example, one simultaneously encountered a work by Richard Serra and a work by Thomas Hirschhorn in a sculpture exhibition, one would recognize immediately that Serra's work requires a highly specialized, knowledgeable way of experiencing sculpture. It presumes an extremely differentiated phenomenological approach, one ultimately based on an aesthetic of autonomy. Your work instead sabotages all these appeals to autonomy: the whole discursive system of what could be called sculpture is twisted, spun around, and opened to a whole new array of contexts and contiguities. Hirschhorn: Quite right. The wonderful thing about art is that positions like Richard Serra's are possible, but my position is also possible. That is why I love art. I don't work against Richard Serra. Rather he and other artists work so intensely and radically on their own system that I say, "If he does that, I'll have to demand that of myself as well." That is my job, my mission, as an artist: to make this my own work. But it interests me that there are other positions. My position is not in combat with them, but my position wants to assert itself and clearly maintain its ideas and content. Buchloh:You mean your work does not engage in a critical dialogue with prevailing notions of public sculpture? Does your work not somehow state that certain sculptural concepts of publicness are false? Doesn't your work give us a much more complex definition of the conditions of public space?

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Hirschhorn: Absolutely! I think every artist has this intention. Otherwise one couldn't carry on. But for me, for example, the concept of the sublime is one that I despise as being profoundly bourgeois. Buchloh: So your work wants to desublimate? And excess is an important strategy in your project of sculptural desublimation? Hirschhorn: Absolutely. This is the direction I have taken, and the path I wish to follow. Although people keep saying, "Those are installations," I don't make installations, you understand? I make my kind of work because I don't want people to be able to step back from it. I want people to be inside my work, and I want spectators to be a part of this world surrounding them in this moment. Then they have to deal with it. That is why it looks the way it does. Buchloh: It seems there are actually three types of objects and materials that turn up in your larger displays. First, there are the real objects. Then there are the enlarged objects, made of aluminum foil or whatever, which magnify trivial objects of everyday life such as watches, spoons, or mushrooms. Last there are these abstract forms that are often made with tape or aluminum foil, uncanny bulbous rhizomes or biomorphic links that roam through your displays. And that is a remarkable spectrum. First of all, it seems to expressly refer to specific sculptural practices and conventions. One cannot see a giant object, let's say your Rolex watches, without thinking of the strategies of Claes Oldenburg. Magnifying trivial objects is by now a well-established strategy invented by the greatest sculptor of the 1960s. But you turn that around, and this strategy suddenly generates precisely the opposite effect: the enlargement does not monumentalize the trivial object anymore, but forces it back into the banality from which it originated. At the same time you deploy these cheap materials like duct tape and all kinds of foil to sculpt these forms of almost threatening growth. And these opposstalactite/stalagmite ing strategies really bring about a decisive effect of desublimation. Hirschhorn: I'm very touched that you see so clearly what I have in mind with the of these objects, for example with a book. I am not conmagnifications cerned with any book in particular. I want to say: every book is important, every book can be important. But no one book is more important than any other; I'm not placing it above something else in a kind of hierarchy. Buchloh: But in contrast to Pop art, you not only work with the objectsof the everyday; you mobilize the actual everyday practices and experiences of other of those collective people. Let us consider your Altars once more-citations forms of behavior in which people spontaneously generate such structures. And in other works, for example the sculptures that deal with the task of removal, where you also perform a common social gesture, virtually the opposite of your principle of excessive accumulation: namely to get rid of excess material, to throw something away, and then turn it into your own sculptural strategy. Hirschhorn: I want to make truly a poor art. Poor art, not arte povera. That it is the

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one thing I wanted to say to you. Something else regarding Oldenburg: I do not have any problem at all with this comparison, but what is very important to me is that even when I enlarge something it is never monumental. That is my only criticism of Oldenburg's art objects in public space: they naturally become monuments. Buchloh:Monuments to what, one has to ask oneself. Hirschhorn:Exactly. That is the only question that is interesting. And in these cases, the monument itself is not criticized, and nor does the work call the underlying concepts of public space into question. That is one of the reasons why I have always tried to enlarge my work myself, by hand. Even though it is large, it is never monumental, never simply magnified by some method. And to go back one more time to this question of poverty,and of Filliou: Filliou introduced these strategies of subtraction, of clearing away, as you put it. Accordingly, all the materials that I use are not only used in the realm of art. Every time I work with a given element, I try to check whether there are possibilities of linking it with a reality that exists elsewhere. I have always tried to make this bridge to something that has a reality elsewhere. That is very important to me. Buchloh: There is another dialectic that your work engages with from the very beginning, namely to isolate existing social rituals, or to refer to cult behavior in mass culture-let us say soccer-and to intertwine these forms of experience with phenomena derived from avant-garde culture. Writing Rodchenko's name in applique on a soccer scarf is a great example of that strategy. On the one hand, you seem to recognize that one cannot remove the cultic dimension from everyday industrial mass culture, and that cult behavior continues to define our experience no matter how enlightened we like to think we are. On the other hand, artistic practices that had once consistently opposed myth and cult (and that was certainly one of Rodchenko's most important demands), that had subverted ritual, have long since become part of a new cult-like veneration. That is an insight flashing up from the short circuit established in your Soccer Scarves. But something else becomes evident as well: namely that you take those actual forms of desire, or the hopes that express themselves in such masscultural cult forms, very seriously, and that you want to establish a dialogue with these forms of ritual. Instead of considering them only as abject forms of extreme alienation, you take them seriously as possible forms of collective self-expression. Thus, you deal with the mass-cultural object not only iconographically,as Pop art did, but you actually engage with the given experiential conditions that such mass-cultural objects feed upon. Hirschhorn: Yes, I simply believe that there are in fact certain everyday forms, as have just described, that are in themselves incredibly expressive. Now, I am you naturally interested in this seemingly uncreative process, because it is about reproducing something...

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Buchloh:... or creating a memory structure in the seemingly uncreative process. Hirschhorn: Quite right, to create history. This form interests me tremendously because I believe that there is an explosive force in it, like dynamite. Although it is a weak notion, I would say in fact that it is something that resists! Buchloh: Now that is an important question. Is it weak, or is it alienated, or is it

deformed by mass culture?

Hirschhorn: I would say it is "weak." In the sense of Robert Walser, you understand. Buchloh: Robert Walser and Robert Filliou perhaps have a great deal more in common than their first name ... Hirschhorn: Of course. And in Walser you are drawn into this current where you no longer know what is weak and what is strong. There is a certain resistance inherent in his work, and I like that a lot. After all, he even explicitly says that it is the weak who think of themselves as strong. Or, simply, that the weak are actually strong, because the strong are actually weak. And he places himself in a certain "weak" position. Naturally I find that this has an explosive force, a kind of resistance despite our mass culture's actual lack of resistance. I am personally very susceptible to these forms, for example these little altars that are generated outside and inside by all kinds of fans. These are manifestations that are not a matter of strength or weakness, but in which form is given to a particular concern, and that is what matters, and that touches me. Buchloh: Or it means taking the forms given by others seriously, or using these display forms as the matrix for one's own creation of form. Hirschhorn: I take them very seriously, and I believe in their innate form. Or I think these are forms too, even though I don't believe in them exclusively. They participate in some kind of resistance, but, I mean, what or who resists anyway? Really not many. And most important, they still give evidence of something that we are losing, a relation or an object that is perceived with love-perhaps wrongly. Buchloh: Or rather, what is left of the ability to love. One more question about removal. This happens in your work not only on the level of materials, but in many of your displays. The removal of boundaries occurs between public and private space, and also between art space and ordinary space, as in your pavilions in Muinster, or in the work in Lyon. Both were set up with the express intent to be accessible twenty-four hours per day, which de facto implied that they would be subject to theft and vandalism. Since you do not want to accept a traditional protective boundary between art space and public space, the erasure of that boundary inevitably entails that the work is damaged or vandalized. Could you say something about that ? Hirschhorn: Of course. As a matter of fact, I have produced a lot of exhibitions in museums and galleries, but also in public spaces. What interests me, after all, is precisely not to distinguish between public space and the museum or some other private space. What interests me is that it is always the same potential

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public, only the proportion is different. For in the museum there are people who afterward go out onto the street. People who go into a museum are, let us say, fundamentally interested in art, perhaps, or perhaps have some time for art. By contrast, on the street, my work confronts the anonymous passerby, people who are not necessarily preoccupied with art. And that interests me. But I don't say there is a public-I'm not an advertising man, after all. I don't say that this is a target public or that is a target public. That would be totally wrong. But I would like to create conditions with the materials, the way I create the work, and the theme, of course, which make as many as possible feel included. Or that no one, in any case, feels excluded. And that inclusion is also my intention for my new project here in Paris. It is called the Musee Precaire Albinet. I want to make a museum, a precarious or temporary museum, with young people and the residents of a housing project in the peripherienear where I live. The proposition is, of course, once again that art has the ability to change the world. And I chose eight artists for the project. Once a week an original work by one of these eight artists will be lent to us by the Centre Georges Pompidou-an original Mondrian painting, for example, a Beuys, a a Leger, a Corbusier, a Duchamp. An original work from each of Malevich, these artists will be exhibited for a week in a small museum in front of this low-income housing project, the HLM. But the exhibition is not everything; it will be accompanied by an atelier d'criture, and there will be debates, a conference, an atelier for children, and a small bar for adults. My idea is that the work of art, and in particular an original work of is not only a valuable object, not only patrimoine, but that it also retains art, an active dynamic element. For example, we will exhibit the Pompidou Center's original large Electric Chair by Andy Warhol. And starting from that, we can perhaps raise questions about the death penalty, and beyond that, the question of justice, and then issues currently very much in the news in France (for example, the debate concerning the foulard, and the question of independent communities, and so on). We will also be exhibiting, for example, Le Corbusier's gorgeous maquette for the Cite Radieuse ... Buchloh: The mother of all HLMs. Hirschhorn:Yes. And this discussion about public housing should naturally be carried out in the project. Because they are living in public housing, but not in the way that Le Corbusier had anticipated it. And at the same time we will organize excursions and events with the young people. In other words, there will be an active element. We are not primarily interested in the patrimoine, the merely passive element, where value keeps increasing. By contrast, we will be focusing on what a work retains in itself, if anything, and what can be reactivated. Of course, let me repeat it: the proposition is that art wants to change the world, or that the world wants to change with art or through art. Buchloh: Do you know the work of Michael Asher?

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Hirschhorn: Yes, of course.

Buchloh: He produced a very interesting work two years ago that you probably don't know, because it has not been published at all. When he was asked to develop a proposal for a work for the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, Asher invited a class from one of L.A.'s largest public high schools, in which 120 different languages are spoken, to work with him. Once he engaged with this school class, he asked them to study one of the galleries of the museum's collection that displayed Surrealists and American Abstract Expressionists. Eventually he suggested that they reinstall the works according to their own points of view, their own criteria. Your approach seems to be somewhat similar, since these schoolchildren, who were twelve, fourteen, fifteen years old, had never seen any art in this or any other way, since most of them had never gone to a museum. Hirschhorn: like Michael Asher. This straightforwardness, this clarity, but also this I trust in art. This autonomy, this I-simply-look-at-that-and-have-to-deal-with-it. This not necessarily wanting to communicate totally, that I like a lot. Hirschhorn: From April 17 to June 15. The reason I was talking about it was
because I am trying, for example, to create a connection to the museum. Buchloh: When will your Musee Precaire take place?

And now, twelve of the young people have classes in the Pompidou Center. They can go there, go inside and work there, and they are even being paid from our budget. And that interests me, to make this exhibition there, in front of this housing development. And it should be with and for the people from the project primarily. Why not? -Paris, December 19, 2003