Trial Transcript 2009-04-29 PM
Trial Transcript 2009-04-29 PM
Trial Transcript 2009-04-29 PM
1 APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
2
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: BARON & BUDD, PC
3 BY: THOMAS SIMS, ESQ.
3102 OAK LAWN AVENUE, SUITE 1100
4 DALLAS, TEXAS 75219
5
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: DOMENGEAUX WRIGHT ROY & EDWARDS,LLC
6 BY: JAMES P. ROY, ESQ.
556 JEFFERSON STREET, SUITE 500
7 POST OFFICE BOX 3668
LAFAYETTE, LOUISIANA 70502
8
9 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: THE DUDENHEFER LAW FIRM, LLC
BY: FRANK C. DUDENHEFER JR., ESQ.
10 601 POYDRAS STREET, SUITE 2655
NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA 70130
11
12 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: DUMAS & ASSOCIATES LAW FIRM, LLC
BY: WALTER C. DUMAS, ESQ.
13 LAWYER'S COMPLEX
1261 GOVERNMENT STREET
14 POST OFFICE BOX 1366
BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA 70821
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: FAYARD & HONEYCUTT
BY: CALVIN C. FAYARD JR., ESQ.
17 519 FLORIDA AVENUE S.W.
DENHAM SPRINGS, LOUISIANA 70726
18
19 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: MICHAEL C. PALMINTIER, A PLC
BY: MICHAEL C. PALMINTIER, ESQ.
20 JOSHUA M. PALMINTIER, ESQ.
618 MAIN STREET
21 BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA 70801
22
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: LAW OFFICE OF ELWOOD C. STEVENS JR.,
23 A PLC
BY: ELWOOD C. STEVENS JR., ESQ.
24 1205 VICTOR II BOULEVARD
POST OFFICE BOX 2626
25 MORGAN CITY, LOUISIANA 70381
1 APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
2
FOR SUBROGATED INSURERS: THE GILBERT FIRM
3 BY: ELISA T. GILBERT, ESQ.
BRENDAN R. O'BRIEN, ESQ.
4 325 EAST 57TH STREET
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10022
5
6 ALSO PRESENT FOR J. ROBERT WARREN II, ESQ.
PLAINTIFFS: ASHLEY E. PHILEN, ESQ.
7 MRGO LITIGATION GROUP
600 CARONDELET STREET, SUITE 604
8 NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA 70130
9
FOR THE DEFENDANT: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
10 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION
BY: DANIEL M. BAEZA JR., ESQ.
11 JEFFREY PAUL EHRLICH, ESQ.
TAHEERAH KALIMAH EL-AMIN, ESQ.
12 MICHELE S. GREIF, ESQ.
CONOR KELLS, ESQ.
13 PAUL MARC LEVINE, ESQ.
JAMES F. MCCONNON JR., ESQ.
14 KARA K. MILLER, ESQ.
RUPERT MITSCH, ESQ.
15 PETER G. MYER, ESQ.
ROBIN D. SMITH, ESQ.
16 SARAH K. SOJA, ESQ.
RICHARD R. STONE SR., ESQ.
17 JOHN WOODCOCK, ESQ.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN STATION
18 P.O. BOX 888
WASHINGTON, DC 20044
19
20 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: TONI DOYLE TUSA, CCR, FCRR
500 POYDRAS STREET, ROOM HB-406
21 NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA 70130
(504) 589-7778
22
23
24
PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY, TRANSCRIPT
25 PRODUCED BY COMPUTER.
1 I N D E X
2 PAGE
3 G. PAUL KEMP
4 VOIR DIRE 1727
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 1735
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13:16 1 EXPERT OPINION, CAUSED LOCAL FLOODING, DID YOU FIND THAT ONE OF
13:16 2 THE REASONS WAS IT CAUSED AN ACCELERATED BUILDUP OF SEDIMENT
13:16 3 THAT RAISED THE BOTTOM OF THE BODY OF WATER, THAT THEN RAISED
13:16 4 THE WATER ITSELF IN FLOOD TIDES?
13:16 5 A. THAT'S CORRECT. IT WAS DONE TO SCOUR SEDIMENT OUT OF THE
13:16 6 NAVIGATION CANAL, BUT IT ACTUALLY RESULTED IN MORE
13:16 7 SEDIMENTATION IN THAT CHANNEL THAN HAD OCCURRED PREVIOUSLY.
13:16 8 Q. YOU, IN FACT, HAVE WORKED ON AN ASSIGNMENT TO THE U.S.
13:16 9 ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS TO REVIEW APPLICATION OF 1D AND 2D
13:16 10 MODELS ADDRESSING THE NEED TO RAISE GUIDE LEVEES IN THE
13:17 11 ATCHAFALAYA IN THE PAST, HAVE YOU NOT?
13:17 12 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
13:17 13 Q. YOU'VE SPENT A COUPLE YEARS AS A TECHNICAL ON COASTAL
13:17 14 RESTORATION FOR THE LOUISIANA GOVERNOR'S OFFICE?
13:17 15 A. YES. I WAS INVOLVED IN GETTING THE COASTAL RESTORATION
13:17 16 PROGRAM STARTED IN LOUISIANA, BOTH AT THE FEDERAL AND STATE
13:17 17 LEVEL.
13:17 18 Q. LET'S TALK SPECIFICALLY MODELING. SOME OF THE LAST WORK
13:17 19 AT LSU THAT YOU ACTUALLY COORDINATED AND DIRECTED WAS IN YOUR
13:17 20 CAPACITY AS DIRECTOR OF THE NATURAL SYSTEMS MODELING GROUP
13:17 21 UNDER CONTRACT TO THE LSU HURRICANE CENTER TO ADAPT THE 2D
13:17 22 ADCIRC MODEL TO PROVIDE RELIABLE REALTIME FORECASTING OF
13:17 23 HURRICANE SURGE; IS THAT RIGHT?
13:17 24 A. THAT'S CORRECT. WITH MY COLLEAGUE, HASSAN MASHRIQUI, WE
13:17 25 DEVELOPED THE PROTOCOL TO ACTUALLY USE THE MODEL IN A
13:23 1 A. I'M LOOKING AT THE TICKER, AND I THINK IT'S AROUND 800.
13:23 2 Q. WHEN OUR LITIGATION TEAM RETAINED YOU ON BEHALF OF THE
13:24 3 ROBINSON PLAINTIFFS, YOUR SPECIFIC ASSIGNMENT -- OR I SHOULD
13:24 4 SAY YOUR GENERAL ASSIGNMENT WAS TO WORK OUT AN ANALYTICAL PLAN
13:24 5 WHEREBY DIFFERENT EXPERT GROUPS WOULD RUN DIFFERENT EXPERT
13:24 6 MODELS IN LOGICAL SEQUENCES THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY ANSWER THE
13:24 7 QUESTION OF HOW MUCH, IF ANY, DID THE MRGO CONTRIBUTE TO THE
13:24 8 FLOODING IN THE ROBINSON PLAINTIFF CASES?
13:24 9 A. THAT'S CORRECT. I HAVE TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR
13:24 10 WHATEVER CONFUSION THIS COURT FEELS ABOUT ALL THOSE MODEL RUNS
13:24 11 THAT WERE DONE. THEY WERE A MEANS TO AN END. ULTIMATELY, WE
13:24 12 WANTED TO KNOW HOW MUCH OF THE WATER IN NORMAN ROBINSON'S HOUSE
13:24 13 AND MS. FRANZ'S HOUSE WAS ACTUALLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE MRGO.
13:24 14 Q. WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO THAT IN EXQUISITE DETAIL LATER,
13:24 15 DR. KEMP.
13:24 16 YOU'VE INVESTIGATED THE HISTORICAL DESIGN EVOLUTION
13:24 17 OF THE MRGO, BOTH REACH 1 AND REACH 2, AND ON A SIMULTANEOUS
13:25 18 COURSE THE HISTORIES, IF YOU WILL, OF THE GULF INTRACOASTAL
13:25 19 WATERWAY AND THE IHNC?
13:25 20 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
13:25 21 Q. YOU WERE, IN EFFECT, THE PLAINTIFFS' EXPERT
13:25 22 MANAGER/COORDINATOR UP TO THE POINT YOU HAND OFF YOUR DATA TO
13:25 23 DR. BEA; CORRECT?
13:25 24 A. YES, YES. I WOULD SAY THAT DR. BEA AND I BOTH WERE ON THE
13:25 25 SAME LEVEL. OF COURSE, HE'S A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY
13:26 1 LOOKING FOR WERE VERY PERISHABLE AND ALSO BEING DISRUPTED BY
13:27 2 REPAIR ACTIVITIES -- HOW COULD WE QUICKLY MAP THE SURGE ON THE
13:27 3 PERIMETER.
13:27 4 Q. YOU SYSTEMATICALLY MAPPED THAT, CORRECT, WITH YOUR TEAM?
13:27 5 A. I DID. I DID. IT WAS KIND OF LIKE PAINTING TOM SAWYER'S
13:27 6 FENCE. EVERY TIME I WOULD GO, THERE WOULD BE MORE PEOPLE WITH
13:27 7 ME, USUALLY FROM THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS OR FROM FEMA OR VARIOUS
13:27 8 AGENCIES. THE GOOD NEWS WAS THAT BECAUSE EVERYBODY WAS THERE
13:27 9 TOGETHER, WE ALL CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT HIGH
13:27 10 WATER MARKS WERE GOOD. AND THEN WE HAD A TEAM OF SURVEYORS
13:27 11 FOLLOWING AFTERWARDS, YOU KNOW, TO MAP THE ELEVATIONS.
13:27 12 Q. DR. KEMP, YOU AND YOUR TEAM WERE SEEKING TO VALIDATE YOUR
13:27 13 MODEL RESULTS AND ESTABLISH THE SURGE SEQUENCING AND ITS
13:27 14 EFFECTS ON BREACHING; IS THAT CORRECT?
13:27 15 A. THAT'S CORRECT. BECAUSE WE HAD THE ONLY SURGE MODEL THAT
13:27 16 HAD BEEN RUN AT THAT TIME AND BECAUSE OUR RESULTS SEEMED TO BE
13:28 17 SO ACCURATE, WE WERE THEN PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT WE UNDERSTOOD
13:28 18 THE SEQUENCE, BUT WE WANTED TO VERIFY THAT.
13:28 19 Q. A LOT OF THIS MODELING IS DONE WITH THE ADCIRC SO8;
13:28 20 CORRECT?
13:28 21 A. ALL OF THE SURGE MODELING WAS DONE WITH THE SO8 VERSION OF
13:28 22 ADCIRC CREATED BY JOANNES WESTERINK AND MODIFIED WITH OUR HELP
13:28 23 AT THE LSU HURRICANE CENTER.
13:28 24 THE COURT: WOULD YOU MIND, MR. ROY, DELINEATING THE
13:28 25 ACRONYM FOR THE COURT REPORTER.
13:30 1 OCTOBER 19, 2008 DECLARATION IS PX-93. THE JANUARY 14, '09
13:30 2 DECLARATION IS PX-2152. I BELIEVE THAT HAD TO BE ADDED.
13:30 3 THAT'S A NEW NUMBER BECAUSE IT HAD SOMEHOW BEEN LEFT OFF.
13:30 4 WE TOLD Y'ALL ABOUT IT. IT HAD TO BE ADDED. IT
13:30 5 WASN'T IN THE ORIGINAL FILING AT THE BEGINNING OF TRIAL.
13:30 6 MR. LEVINE: I'M LOOKING. FOR THE RECORD, I DIDN'T
13:30 7 THINK WE HAD ATTACHED IT AS AN EXHIBIT, SO NO PROBLEM.
13:30 8 BY MR. ROY:
13:30 9 Q. THERE ARE OTHER REPORTS, I THINK PX-94, WHICH IS SEPTEMBER
13:30 10 16, 2007, YOUR SO-CALLED 702C DECLARATION. ALL THAT'S CORRECT,
13:30 11 DR. KEMP, AS WE TALKED ABOUT?
13:30 12 A. I BELIEVE THERE WAS ONE OTHER REPORT THAT'S A MAY 1
13:30 13 REPORT, BUT IT WAS A DRAFT THAT WAS SUPERSEDED BY THE JULY 11
13:30 14 REPORT.
13:30 15 MR. ROY: FAIR ENOUGH. TO MY KNOWLEDGE THAT DRAFT IS
13:30 16 NOT IN THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR, SINCE IT WAS JUST A DRAFT.
13:31 17 BY MR. ROY:
13:31 18 Q. LET'S TURN TO YOUR PRIMARY CONCLUSIONS.
13:31 19 MR. ROY: YOUR HONOR, WITH YOUR PERMISSION, I'D LIKE
13:31 20 TO TOUCH UPON THEM TO FRAME HIS TESTIMONY, AND THEN WE'LL GO
13:31 21 BACK AND GET THE BASES FOR EACH OF THEM BRIEFLY WITHOUT
13:31 22 REGURGITATING THE WHOLE REPORT.
13:31 23 THE COURT: I GENERALLY LIKE THAT APPROACH, YES, SIR.
13:31 24 MR. ROY: COULD WE PULL UP PAGE 2 OF THE POWERPOINT.
25
13:38 1 GIWW AND THE MRGO. IT'S A LITTLE DARK, BUT THIS SHOWS SOME OF
13:38 2 THE ENLARGEMENT OF THE CHANNEL. THIS IS THE LPV STRUCTURE HERE
13:38 3 AND ALONG HERE. THIS AREA, I GUESS, WOULD BE CALLED THE GOLDEN
13:38 4 TRIANGLE AREA.
13:38 5 Q. WE'RE GOING TO BE COMING BACK TO IT AND TALK ABOUT IT AT
13:38 6 GREAT LENGTH LATER, BUT WHILE YOU HAVE THIS IMAGE UP, IN THE
13:38 7 LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER, PX-91 AT PAGE 14, IN FACT, A VERY
13:38 8 WIDE, DEEP SECTION OF THE REACH 2 MRGO IS RIGHT THERE IN THAT
13:38 9 MILE OR TWO OR THREE BEFORE IT INTERSECTS WITH THE REACH 1;
13:38 10 CORRECT?
13:38 11 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
13:39 12 Q. IS THAT SIGNIFICANT? WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND TALK
13:39 13 ABOUT IT.
13:39 14 A. WELL, I THINK THE WIDENING OF REACH 2 -- THAT'S JUST A
13:39 15 REPRESENTATIVE AREA -- IS CHARACTERISTIC ALL ALONG THAT IN
13:39 16 FRONT OF THE LPV STRUCTURES.
13:39 17 Q. LET'S PULL UP PAGE 4 OF THE POWERPOINT, YOUR SECOND
13:39 18 OPINION. PAGE 4 OF THE POWERPOINT, WILL YOU TELL THE COURT
13:39 19 WHAT YOUR SECOND EXPERT OPINION IS.
13:39 20 A. IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE MRGO NAVIGATION PROJECT GREATLY
13:39 21 ENLARGED THE ORIGINAL GULF INTRACOASTAL WATERWAY CONNECTION
13:39 22 BETWEEN THE THROAT OF THE FUNNEL AND THE INNER HARBOR
13:39 23 NAVIGATION CANAL, AND THAT SECTION OF THE GIWW IS ALSO CALLED
13:39 24 THE MRGO REACH 1. THAT FORESEEABLY INCREASED SURGE
13:39 25 TRANSMISSION INTO THE CITY EARLIER, ADDING TO THE HEIGHT AND
13:41 1 OPINION.
13:41 2 A. IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE MRGO NAVIGATION PROJECT CREATED
13:41 3 A REACH 2 CHANNEL WITH UNSTABLE SIDE SLOPES THAT CAUSED IT TO
13:41 4 PREDICTABLY EXPAND OVER TIME, REDUCING THE NATURAL MARSH BUFFER
13:41 5 THAT PREVIOUSLY SEPARATED IT FROM LAKE BORGNE ON ONE SIDE AND
13:41 6 FROM THE ADJACENT LPV BERMS ON THE OTHER, THEREBY COMPROMISING
13:42 7 FORESHORE PROTECTION FOR THE MAN-MADE LPV SURGE PROTECTION
13:42 8 ELEMENTS AND HASTENING THE ONSET OF DAMAGING WAVE ACTION ON
13:42 9 THESE DELICATE STRUCTURES SO THAT THEY BREACHED EARLIER IN THE
13:42 10 STORM SEQUENCE.
13:42 11 Q. YOUR FOURTH OPINION, LET'S PULL UP PAGE 9 OF THE
13:42 12 POWERPOINT.
13:42 13 A. IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE MRGO NAVIGATION PROJECT CREATED
13:42 14 A CHANNEL IN REACH 2 THAT PREDICTABLY EXPOSED FRESHWATER SWAMPS
13:42 15 AND MARSHES WITHIN THE LAKE BORGNE FUNNEL TO INCREASED
13:42 16 SALINITY, ACCELERATING THEIR CONVERSION TO OPEN WATER, AND
13:42 17 THEREBY REDUCING THE WETLAND SURGE AND WAVE BUFFER BETWEEN
13:42 18 LAKE BORGNE AND POPULATED AREAS.
13:42 19 Q. PAGE 11, YOUR FIFTH OPINION, IF YOU COULD TELL THE COURT.
13:42 20 A. IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE MRGO NAVIGATION PROJECT WAS A
13:42 21 SUBSTANTIAL CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO THE CATASTROPHIC FLOODING OF
13:43 22 THE ROBINSON PLAINTIFFS' HOMES AND COMMUNITIES.
13:43 23 Q. NOW, IS IT CORRECT, SIR, THAT ONLY BY UNDERSTANDING THE
13:43 24 MRGO'S ROLE IN HASTENING THE FLOODING ONSET CAN WE EXPLAIN A
13:43 25 NUMBER OF THINGS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTANDING YOUR OPINION?
13:45 1 MEASURES HAD BEEN PROPOSED AND WERE WELL UNDERSTOOD AT THAT
13:45 2 TIME.
13:45 3 Q. IN REVIEWING THE VAST BODY OF INFORMATION THAT YOU DID,
13:45 4 INCLUDING THE HISTORICAL INFORMATION, PRIOR REPORTS, AND SO
13:45 5 FORTH, THAT ARE DELINEATED IN YOUR REPORTS, WHEN'S THE FIRST
13:45 6 TIME, IN YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION, THAT YOU SAW THE CORPS
13:45 7 APPLY GENERALLY ACCEPTED AND KNOWN OCEANOGRAPHIC INFORMATION
13:45 8 AND TECHNIQUES TO THIS SURGE THAT THEY HAVE CREATED AND
13:45 9 AGGRAVATED THROUGH THE FUNNEL CREATED BY THE JOINING OF REACH 2
13:45 10 AND THE GIWW?
13:45 11 A. THE FIRST SERIOUS TREATMENT THAT I SAW OF THAT ACTUALLY
13:45 12 CAME AFTER HURRICANE BETSY IN 1966, WHEN THE CORPS ENGAGED
13:46 13 BRETSCHNEIDER AND COLLINS, TWO OF THE LEADING OCEANOGRAPHIC
13:46 14 HYDRAULIC ENGINEERS OF THE TIME, TO STUDY THE EFFECT. THIS WAS
13:46 15 IN THE CONTEXT OF LITIGATION, LIKE WHAT WE HAVE TODAY, AFTER
13:46 16 HURRICANE BETSY.
13:46 17 Q. WHAT KIND OF A STUDY WAS IT?
13:46 18 A. WELL, IT WAS AN ARMCHAIR STUDY; THAT IS, IT DIDN'T INVOLVE
13:46 19 A FIELD INVESTIGATION. IT WAS CONDUCTED BASED ON INFORMATION
13:46 20 THAT THE CORPS PROVIDED TO THE PARTICIPANTS, BUT IT WAS
13:46 21 ACTUALLY VERY PROGRESSIVE IN MANY WAYS. CERTAINLY, IF ONE READ
13:46 22 IT CAREFULLY, THERE WAS AN AWFUL LOT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IN
13:46 23 THAT STUDY.
13:46 24 Q. NOW, THE B&C STUDY IS IN EVIDENCE AT PX-68, CLEARLY
13:47 25 REFERRED TO IN YOUR REPORT.
13:50 1 MAXIMUM ELEVATION UP HERE BECAUSE THAT WAS PART OF THEIR INPUT
13:50 2 CONDITION. THEY COULDN'T GO ANY HIGHER THAN THAT. BUT WHAT
13:50 3 DID CHANGE WAS THE DURATION. THIS IS TRUE OF ALL STORMS. THE
13:51 4 TIME WHEN THE STORM LEAVES THE REGION IS ALWAYS SET BY ITS
13:51 5 TRANSLATION, THE SPEED AT WHICH IT'S MOVING, IN THIS CASE, THE
13:51 6 CASE OF KATRINA, TOWARDS THE MISSISSIPPI COAST.
13:51 7 SO THE STORM IS GOING TO TRANSIT THE AREA, ALL CURVES
13:51 8 ARE GOING TO DROP AT THE SAME TIME, BUT WHAT CHANGES IS HOW
13:51 9 QUICKLY THAT SURGE COMES INTO THE INNER HARBOR NAVIGATION
13:51 10 CANAL.
13:51 11 Q. LET'S GET THIS CLEAR. I'M NO SCIENTIST. I WANT TO BE
13:51 12 SURE I'VE GOT IT. WHAT I'M POINTING TO RIGHT NOW IN THIS AREA
13:51 13 IS WITH NO REACH 2 AND NO --
13:51 14 A. THAT'S THE NEW LPV LEVEES BUT NO MRGO CHANNEL IN PLACE, NO
13:51 15 PROJECT.
13:51 16 Q. THE IMPORTANT POINT HERE FROM YOUR STANDPOINT, YOUR AREAS
13:51 17 OF EXPERTISE, IS THAT THE LPV SYSTEM AS PROPOSED IS NOT -- IS
13:52 18 NOT -- THE CAUSE OF THE ADDED NUMBER OF HOURS OF SURGE. IT IS
13:52 19 THE CHANNEL WIDENING AND DEEPENING BACK THEN, RECOGNIZED BY
13:52 20 THESE EXPERTS IN 1966, THAT INCREASES THE VOLUME OF WATER, THE
13:52 21 VELOCITY OF WATER, THUS NOT THE HEIGHT OF THE SURGE BUT THE
13:52 22 DURATION OF THE SURGE OVERTOPPING LEVEES; GENERALLY CORRECT?
13:52 23 A. THAT'S RIGHT. THE MAJOR EFFECT IS THE ADDITION OF THE
13:52 24 CHANNEL. THERE IS A MINOR EFFECT ASSOCIATED WITH THE GEOMETRY
13:52 25 OF THE PROPOSED LEVEE SYSTEM. BOTH OF THEM TOGETHER WORKED TO
13:54 1 WOULD MEAN THEY DIDN'T GET VERY FAR INTO BRETSCHNEIDER AND
13:54 2 COLLINS' REPORT.
13:54 3 Q. IN ESSENCE, ABOUT A YEAR OR SO AFTER THE STORM, THIS
13:54 4 STUDY, B&C, SCIENTIFICALLY PROVES THAT WITHOUT LPV STRUCTURES
13:54 5 THE MRGO ITSELF, REACH 1/REACH 2, THE WAY IT WAS BUILT, HAS
13:54 6 MAJOR HYDRODYNAMIC INFLUENCES UPON SURGE-RUSH VELOCITY AND
13:54 7 OVERTOPPING DURATION?
13:54 8 A. THAT'S CORRECT, BUT IT'S ALSO OCEANOGRAPHY 101 WOULD TELL
13:55 9 YOU THAT. AND, OF COURSE, WE MODELED THIS CONDITION AS WELL.
13:55 10 Q. WHY IS IT OCEANOGRAPHY 101, DR. KEMP, IF THE CORPS DID NOT
13:55 11 RECOGNIZE AND SAY, "AHA, I'VE A MAGIC MOMENT, PUBLIC. IT IS A
13:55 12 FUNNEL EFFECT CAUSED BY THE MRGO"? WHY IS IT OCEANOGRAPHY 101?
13:55 13 WHY IS IT THAT FUNDAMENTALLY SIMPLE THAT YOU GOT IT, B&C GOT
13:55 14 IT, BUT THE CORPS DIDN'T GET?
13:55 15 A. YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO PUT MYSELF IN THE
13:55 16 PLACE OF THE OFFICIALS READING THIS. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT
13:55 17 WAS THE MESSAGE THEY WERE LOOKING FOR. MY EXPERIENCE -- OF
13:55 18 COURSE, I'VE REVIEWED SUBSEQUENT -- AND REALLY DR. GAGLIANO AND
13:55 19 DR. HSU IN 1973 TOLD THEM EXACTLY THE SAME THING. HERE'S
13:55 20 DR. GAGLIANO, PROBABLY ONE OF THE LEADING DELTAIC GEOLOGISTS IN
13:55 21 THE COUNTRY; DR. HSU, THE LEADING OCEANOGRAPHIC METEOROLOGIST
13:56 22 IN THE COUNTRY, TELLING THEM THESE THINGS. IT DIDN'T MAKE A
13:56 23 DIFFERENCE.
13:56 24 Q. WHEN MR. CROSBY IN THE EARLY '70S -- LATE '60S. EXCUSE
13:56 25 ME. YOU REFERENCE THAT AT PAGE 91 OF YOUR REPORT. LET'S PULL
13:58 1 DR. GAGLIANO AND DR. HSU'S VERY INSTRUCTIVE SUGGESTIONS, ISSUES
13:58 2 WHAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED IN YOUR REPORT AS THE UNITIVE STATEMENT
13:58 3 ON THE POSITION FOR THE NEW ORLEANS DISTRICT; CORRECT?
13:58 4 A. ACTUALLY, THAT'S WHAT MR. BECNEL DESCRIBED AS THE UNITIVE
13:58 5 STATEMENT. THIS WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT 1973 -- THE CORPS
13:58 6 WAS GOING OUT TO THE PUBLIC TO GET COMMENTS ON THE CONCEPT OF
13:58 7 WIDENING AND DEEPENING THE CHANNEL. THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE
13:59 8 WHO, FOR WHATEVER REASON, WERE WORRIED ABOUT THAT. I THINK
13:59 9 MR. BECNEL THOUGHT THAT THAT CONCERN MIGHT PUT A DAMPER ON SOME
13:59 10 OF THOSE PLANS.
13:59 11 Q. LET'S PULL UP, IF WE CAN, PX-91 AT PAGE 25. THESE ARE THE
13:59 12 EXACT WORDS YOU DESCRIBE IN PAGE 25 OF YOUR REPORT. WOULD YOU
13:59 13 READ THEM.
13:59 14 A. THIS IS FROM MR. BECNEL'S MEMO. IT SAYS:
13:59 15 "THE PURPOSE OF THIS MEMORANDUM IS TO PROVIDE A
13:59 16 UNITIVE STATEMENT ON THE POSITION OF THE NEW ORLEANS DISTRICT
13:59 17 CONCERNING THE ACCUSATION BY DR. SHERWOOD M. GAGLIANO OR ANYONE
13:59 18 ELSE THAT THE ALIGNMENT OF THE PROTECTION LEVEES CREATES A
13:59 19 FUNNEL EFFECT IN THE VICINITY OF PARIS ROAD AT LAKE BORGNE. AT
13:59 20 THESE MEETINGS, DR. GAGLIANO, ET AL, PRESENTED THREE REPORTS,
13:59 21 WHICH ARE A MATTER OF RECORD OF THE PUBLIC HEARINGS."
14:00 22 I GUESS BECAUSE IT WAS A MATTER OF RECORD, HE FELT
14:00 23 LIKE THAT HE NEEDED TO TAKE SOME POSITION.
14:00 24 Q. NOW, THIS UNITIVE STATEMENT WAS NOT PUBLISHED OUTSIDE OF
14:00 25 THE CORPS; IS THAT CORRECT, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
14:03 1 OPINION, DEMONSTRATES THE CORPS WAS FULLY AWARE OF THE CHANNEL
14:03 2 WIDENING AT THAT TIME DUE TO BANK EROSION FROM WAVES AND THE
14:03 3 NEED TO TAKE DECISIVE REMEDIAL ACTION; IS THAT CORRECT?
14:03 4 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
14:03 5 Q. IN FACT, AT THAT TIME THE CORPS ACKNOWLEDGES ANNUAL SHORE
14:04 6 EROSION OF AT LEAST 15 TO 32 FEET PER YEAR; IS THAT CORRECT?
14:04 7 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
14:04 8 Q. SOMETHING IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD?
14:04 9 A. YEAH. I THINK THE AVERAGE WAS AROUND 15, BUT IT RANGED IN
14:04 10 THAT --
14:04 11 Q. AND DESCRIBED A STAGGERING LOSS OF WETLANDS ALONG REACH 2;
14:04 12 IS THAT RIGHT?
14:04 13 A. ALONG REACH 2 AND ALSO MORE GENERALLY IN THE ENTIRE FUNNEL
14:04 14 AREA.
14:04 15 Q. THE CORPS' DIVISION LEVEL REVIEWERS OF THE '88 REPORT ALSO
14:04 16 WARN ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF CATASTROPHIC FLOODING CAUSED BY
14:04 17 THE MRGO; CORRECT?
14:04 18 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
14:04 19 Q. DID THE CORPS HEED THOSE WARNINGS?
14:04 20 A. THE CORPS ADDRESSED SOME OF THOSE COMMENTS, AND THAT WAS
14:04 21 ONE COMMENT THEY CHOSE NOT ADDRESS. THAT'S PART OF THE RECORD
14:04 22 OF THAT REPORT.
14:04 23 Q. AS A PRUDENT OCEANOGRAPHER AND EXPERT IN YOUR FIELD, IN
14:04 24 1988, LOOKING AT THE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE TO THE CORPS
14:04 25 AT THAT TIME, WOULD A MINIMALLY COMPETENT EXPERT IN YOUR FIELD
14:06 1 BACK IN 1988 WAS NOT ALIEN TO THE CORPS; IN FACT, AN HOUR AND A
14:06 2 HALF FROM HERE AT ST. FRANCISVILLE, ON THE VERY
14:06 3 MISSISSIPPI RIVER THAT FLOWS THROUGH NEW ORLEANS, IS A HUGE --
14:07 4 AND WAS THEN -- HUGE WHAT? CONCRETE-ARTICULATED MAT FACILITY
14:07 5 FOR THE PURPOSE OF ARMORING SHORELINES; RIGHT?
14:07 6 A. THAT'S CORRECT. ONE WOULD BE HARD PRESSED IN THE LOWER
14:07 7 MISSISSIPPI RIVER TO FIND 1,000 FEET OF THE BANK THAT DOESN'T
14:07 8 HAVE A MAT LIKE THAT ON IT.
14:07 9 THE COURT: DR. KEMP, JUST SO I UNDERSTAND SOMETHING,
14:07 10 WHEN YOU SAY THE CORPS PUT -- WE'LL JUST CALL IT ROCKS FOR LACK
14:07 11 OF A BETTER WORD, RIPRAP, OR WHATEVER IT IS, THE EXTENT OF
14:07 12 THAT -- WE'LL CALL IT ARMORING OF THE BANKS. WAS THAT ALONG
14:07 13 THE ENTIRETY OF REACH 2? I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOU TESTIFIED
14:07 14 TO.
14:07 15 THE WITNESS: NO, YOUR HONOR. THEY PUT IT, FOR SOME
14:07 16 REASON, DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE LPV STRUCTURES AND NO FURTHER.
14:08 17 THE COURT: THAT WOULD BE IN FRONT OF THE LPV
14:08 18 STRUCTURES, MEANING --
14:08 19 THE WITNESS: WELL, I'M SAYING THE MRGO REACH 2
14:08 20 CHANNEL IS EXPANDING TOWARDS THE STRUCTURES AT AN ALARMING
14:08 21 RATE. THE FIRST PLACE THEY PUT THE ROCKS IS ALONG THE MRGO
14:08 22 BANK BETWEEN THE ENLARGED CHANNEL AND THE TOE OF THE
14:08 23 STRUCTURES.
14:08 24 THE COURT: RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT. WAS THAT
14:08 25 ALONG THE ENTIRETY OF REACH 2? DO YOU KNOW?
14:08 1 THE WITNESS: NO. REACH 2 EXTENDS ALL THE WAY OUT TO
14:08 2 THE EDGE OF THE MARSH, SO IT'S JUST THAT 12 MILES THAT FRONTS
14:08 3 THE STRUCTURES.
14:08 4 THE COURT: OKAY. THAT WAS DONE WHEN?
14:08 5 THE WITNESS: I BELIEVE IT WAS DONE ABOUT '94, '95,
14:08 6 MAYBE '93. WE CAN CERTAINLY FIND OUT EXACTLY IN A MINUTE.
14:08 7 MR. ROY: NOW, FOR MORE GRAPHIC CONTEXT, LET'S GO TO
14:08 8 PX-193, CARL. PX-193. WOULD YOU PULL THAT UP.
14:09 9 BY MR. ROY:
14:09 10 Q. THESE ARE THINGS REFERENCED IN YOUR VARIOUS WRITINGS,
14:09 11 DR. KEMP. THIS IS THE MAY 24, 1988 MEMO FROM CECIL W.
14:09 12 SOUILEAU, CHIEF, HYDRAULICS AND HYDROLOGIC BRANCH, WITH THE
14:09 13 CORPS; CORRECT?
14:09 14 THE COURT: IS THAT ALSO CONTAINED IN DR. KEMP'S
14:09 15 REPORT?
14:09 16 MR. ROY: I BELIEVE IT IS REFERRED TO, JUDGE, EITHER
14:09 17 IN APPENDIX B OR ELSEWHERE IN THE REPORT.
14:09 18 THE COURT: IT'S NOT THERE IN TOTO?
14:09 19 MR. ROY: NO, SIR. THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I'M
14:09 20 CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO IT.
14:09 21 THE COURT: I APPRECIATE IT.
14:09 22 MR. ROY: CARL, WOULD YOU HIGHLIGHT STARTING WITH THE
14:09 23 FIFTH LINE, FIRST SENTENCE, PARAGRAPH 3, "WE COMPARED 1969
14:09 24 QUADRANGLES...." HIGHLIGHT THAT SENTENCE.
25
14:11 1 IN MILE 20 TO 15. BUT WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THAT THE INSHORE
14:11 2 PART WILL BECOME LIKE THAT OFFSHORE PART WHEN LAKE BORGNE
14:11 3 BREACHES INTO THE MRGO, WHICH, OF COURSE, OCCURRED, OH, AROUND
14:11 4 1980.
14:11 5 Q. NOW, LET'S GO TO THE NEXT PAGE, PARAGRAPH 7, COMMENT 2.
14:11 6 THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE STARTING WITH SALTWATER INTRUSION, WILL
14:11 7 YOU HIGHLIGHT THAT IN THE SECOND SENTENCE. MR. SOUILEAU
14:11 8 ACKNOWLEDGES:
14:11 9 "SALTWATER INTRUSION MAY BE REDUCED DURING NORMAL
14:11 10 CONDITIONS BY BLOCKING OF THE DEEP-DRAFT CHANNEL. HOWEVER,
14:11 11 CLOSING OF THE MRGO NAVIGATION CHANNEL WILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON
14:11 12 HURRICANE SURGE."
14:11 13 A. MY COMMENT IS IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU DO IT. THE WAY IT'S
14:11 14 BEING HANDLED RIGHT NOW IS THAT THERE IS A SALINITY BARRIER
14:11 15 BEING PLACED AT THE BAYOU LA LOUTRE RIDGE, WHICH IS THE
14:11 16 APPROPRIATE PLACE FOR THAT, AND THEN A SURGE BARRIER IS BEING
14:12 17 PLACED IN THE THROAT OF THE FUNNEL SIMILAR TO THE CROSBY PLAN.
14:12 18 YOU NEED BOTH THOSE THINGS.
14:12 19 MR. ROY: LET'S GO FORWARD FOUR MORE PAGES, CARL, TO
14:12 20 PARAGRAPH 11, TOP OF THE PAGE, COMMENT 4(C), THE LAST SENTENCE,
14:12 21 STARTING WITH "SPARTINA."
14:12 22 BY MR. ROY:
14:12 23 Q. DR. KEMP, CAN YOU READ WHAT THAT SENTENCE SAYS.
14:12 24 A. YES. I CAN EVEN PRONOUNCE THE WORD SPARTINA ALTERNIFLORA.
14:12 25 Q. READ THE SENTENCE.
14:23 1 INTERESTING.
14:23 2 MR. ROY: LET'S HIGHLIGHT B, CARL.
14:23 3 BY MR. ROY:
14:23 4 Q. WHAT DOES THAT SAY?
14:23 5 A. YOU MENTIONED THAT EARLIER. THAT'S THE CORPS'
14:23 6 LONG-STANDING POLICY AGAINST REPAIRING BANK EROSION. THIS IS
14:24 7 SOMETHING THEY CONSTITUTIONALLY DISLIKE DOING.
14:24 8 Q. SUBPARAGRAPH E, READ THAT.
14:24 9 A. "LONG-TERM VIABILITY OF MRGO IN QUESTION, DUE TO
14:24 10 CONSIDERABLE PUBLIC OPPOSITION TO PAST AND CONTINUING
14:24 11 (PERCEIVED AND REAL) ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGES AND TO MARGINAL
14:24 12 COMPETITIVENESS OF 36-FOOT CHANNEL."
14:24 13 MR. ROY: YOUR HONOR, IN ORDER TO SAVE TIME AND MOVE
14:24 14 THIS ALONG, I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT, OBSERVATIONALLY, A COUPLE OF
14:24 15 OTHER HIGHLIGHTED AREAS OF THIS EXHIBIT. I BELIEVE WE'VE
14:24 16 ESTABLISHED RELEVANCE.
14:24 17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
14:24 18 MR. ROY: THE NEXT LINE IS: "NOT POLICY QUESTION
14:24 19 (CAN BE RESOLVED BY SPONSOR)."
14:24 20 IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DOCUMENT, YOUR HONOR,
14:25 21 "SPONSOR" IS LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
14:25 22 THE NEXT PAGE, D: "SECTION 1135 PROVIDES
14:25 23 AUTHORITY ONLY. FUNDS MUST COME FROM OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE
14:25 24 (O&M) OR OTHER BUDGET."
14:25 25 GOING DOWN TO F, "PRECEDENT" -- AND THESE ARE
14:25 1 ALL THE REASONS WHY NOT TO STABILIZE THE BANKS, AN IMPASSE, NOT
14:25 2 POLICY.
14:25 3 "PRECEDENT: IF CORPS FIXES MILE 50 TO 56 AS
14:25 4 CONDITION OF DREDGED MATERIAL PLACEMENT, EXPECT CONTINUED
14:25 5 DEMANDS THROUGHOUT LOUISIANA COASTAL ZONE."
14:25 6 THE NEXT PAGE, CARL, PAGE 4 -- ACTUALLY, THAT'S IT.
14:25 7 THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
14:25 8 JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, WE'LL PROBABLY TAKE A
14:25 9 BREAK IN ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN MINUTES IF THAT HELPS YOU
14:25 10 CALIBRATE.
14:26 11 MR. ROY: YES, SIR.
14:26 12 BY MR. ROY:
14:26 13 Q. YOU TESTIFIED THE CORPS WAS AWARE BY AT LEAST 1966 AND
14:26 14 INCREASINGLY AT THE BENCHMARK DATES WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, AND
14:26 15 DR. GAGLIANO AND OTHERS TALKED ABOUT, TO CLARIFY: CLEARLY, IN
14:26 16 1966, WITH RESPECT TO THE FUNNEL, AND BY AT THE LATEST 1988, AS
14:26 17 TO WAVES AND EROSION ON REACH 2, THE CORPS HAD BEEN WARNED, AS
14:26 18 FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED, THROUGH THE LENS AND THE VIEWPOINT OF
14:26 19 A MINIMALLY COMPETENT OCEANOGRAPHER UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S GOING
14:26 20 ON OUT THERE?
14:26 21 A. YES, SIR.
14:26 22 Q. THERE WAS AMPLE TIME, IF THE CORPS HAD CHOSEN TO, TO
14:26 23 FORMALLY ALERT CONGRESS TO THE REMEDIAL MEASURES KNOWN BY THE
14:26 24 CORPS THAT COULD HAVE FIXED THESE PROBLEMS, BUT TO YOUR
14:26 25 KNOWLEDGE IT WAS NEVER DONE IN THAT TIME FRAME; CORRECT?
14:49 1 CHOICE.
14:49 2 THE COURT: I'M SURE YOU HAD A RATHER SHORT NIGHT
14:49 3 YOURSELF. GO AHEAD, SIR.
14:49 4 MR. ROY: YOUR HONOR, LET ME BE SURE THAT WHEN I
14:49 5 DESCRIBED THE JULY 28, 2007 REPORT THAT I SAID IT'S JX-194. I
14:50 6 MAY HAVE MISDATED IT.
14:50 7 THE COURT: I HAVE A COMPENDIUM OF THE REPORT, WHICH
14:50 8 I SYNOPSIZED. ARE ALL OF THOSE REPORTS IN THE BOOK THAT I WAS
14:50 9 GIVEN? I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER.
14:50 10 MR. ROY: THE ONLY ONE, YOUR HONOR, THAT MAY NOT HAVE
14:50 11 BEEN GIVEN IS THE -- WELL, THERE ARE TWO, I BELIEVE. I THINK
14:50 12 2152 IS MAYBE THE ONLY ONE WE MAY HAVE TO BACKFILL TO YOU.
14:50 13 THE COURT: 2152 MAY BE THE ONLY ONE.
14:50 14 MR. ROY: YOU HAD IT, ANYWAY, BECAUSE IT WAS THE 702C
14:50 15 DECLARATION.
14:50 16 THE COURT: RIGHT.
14:50 17 MR. ROY: MAY WE PROCEED?
14:50 18 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.
14:50 19 BY MR. ROY:
14:50 20 Q. DR. KEMP, YOUR OCEANOGRAPHIC METHODS AND ANALYSIS -- LET'S
14:50 21 GO TO PAGE 15. TELL THE COURT AS CONCISELY AS YOU CAN WHAT
14:50 22 THOSE ARE, GENERALLY.
14:51 23 A. ACTUALLY, WE ARE DOING A LOT OF THE SAME THINGS THAT
14:51 24 BRETSCHNEIDER AND COLLINS DID BUT WITH SOME MORE MODERN TOOLS.
14:51 25 WE SIMULATE THE KATRINA SCENARIO WITHOUT THE LEVEE AND FLOOD
14:56 1 DETAIL. AND THAT WAS BETTER DONE USING THE FINEL MODEL, WHERE
14:56 2 WE COULD PUT IN MORE PRECISE GEOMETRY, AND IT WAS WELL SET UP
14:56 3 TO USE TO HANDLE THE WETLAND EFFECTS ON MODERN FRICTION AND SO
14:56 4 ON.
14:56 5 Q. TO YOUR SATISFACTION, IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT FINEL SHOWED
14:56 6 THAT THE MRGO AS ORIGINALLY BUILT, BUT MADE SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE
14:57 7 BECAUSE OF ITS WIDENING AND DEEPENING SINCE ORIGINAL
14:57 8 CONSTRUCTION, THAT CHANGE, THAT THIS HAD A SIGNIFICANT EFFECT
14:57 9 ON SURGE AMPLIFICATION AND VOLUME AND TIMING AT REACH 1 AND 2;
14:57 10 CORRECT?
14:57 11 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
14:57 12 Q. ESPECIALLY REACH 2 IN THE CASE OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE
14:57 13 WETLANDS AND THE WATER COMING IN AND AMPLIFYING INTO THAT
14:57 14 NARROWER FUNNEL AND THEN INTO NEW ORLEANS EAST?
14:57 15 A. YES. IN TERMS OF SURGE HEIGHT OUT IN THE JAWS OF THE
14:57 16 FUNNEL THAT I'M POINTING HERE TO, TO THIS AREA, THIS REACH 2
14:57 17 HERE. SO WE HAD A LOT OF EFFECT ON CIRCULATION IN THE GAPE OF
14:57 18 THE FUNNEL, SHALL WE SAY, BUT IN THAT AREA THE WATER CAN ONLY
14:57 19 GET SO HIGH. SO THE MAXIMUM ELEVATION OF THE WATER IN THAT
14:58 20 AREA IS DETERMINED NOT SO MUCH BY THE AMOUNT OF WATER COMING IN
14:58 21 BUT BY THE HEIGHT OF THE PROTECTIVE STRUCTURES THERE.
14:58 22 SO THIS IS A BATHTUB IN WHICH WE ARE EMPTYING THE
14:58 23 FIREHOSE. THE WATER DOESN'T GO UP TO THE CEILING. IT STOPS AT
14:58 24 THE EDGE OF THE BATHTUB. I MEAN, IT DOESN'T STOP, BUT IT
14:58 25 DOESN'T GO ANY HIGHER THAN THE EDGE OF THE BATHTUB, AND THEN
14:59 1 Q. NOW, YOU AND YOUR EXPERT TEAM, WITH THE DUTCH USING FINEL,
15:00 2 REPORTED AND USED INFORMATION GENERATED AT CERTAIN SPECIFIC
15:00 3 POINTS SHOWN AT PAGE 20 OF THE POWERPOINT; CORRECT?
15:00 4 A. THAT'S RIGHT. THIS SHOWS THE LOCATIONS, SORT OF OUR
15:00 5 REFERENCE LOCATIONS.
15:00 6 Q. THE PURPOSE HERE IS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, TO ESTABLISH FLOW
15:00 7 AND FLOW VELOCITIES; CORRECT?
15:00 8 A. WE ARE ESTABLISHING CONDITIONS AT THESE POINTS. WE ALSO
15:00 9 SIMULATE FLOW VELOCITY IN THE CHANNELS AND OUTSIDE THE
15:00 10 CHANNELS.
15:00 11 Q. IN AN IDEAL WORLD, THERE'S A LITTLE MACHINE OR A HUMAN
15:00 12 PROTECTED FROM ALL OF THE WILD ELEMENTS OF A HURRICANE AT EVERY
15:00 13 ONE OF THESE POINTS THAT RECORDS EXACTLY WHAT IT REALLY WAS
15:00 14 DURING THE STORM; RIGHT?
15:00 15 A. IDEALLY, BUT THAT'S NOT THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN.
15:00 16 Q. SO YOU AND YOUR TEAM HAVE TO CALIBRATE OR VALIDATE THE
15:01 17 FINEL SIMULATION BY LOOKING FOR WHAT IS REALITY THAT YOU CAN
15:01 18 FIND TO VALIDATE UPON; RIGHT?
15:01 19 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
15:01 20 Q. YOU DON'T JUST ADJUST DATA BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM TO FIT
15:01 21 YOUR MODEL; YOU GO OUT AND YOU FIND THE REALITY TO BASE YOUR
15:01 22 MODEL ON. RIGHT?
15:01 23 A. THAT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY.
15:01 24 Q. IS THAT SOUND SCIENCE?
15:01 25 A. IT IS.
15:01 1 Q. WELL, WHAT WAS THE PEAK SURGE? WE KNOW THE PEAK SURGE OF
15:01 2 KATRINA, DON'T WE? WE KNOW IT BASED ON REALITY?
15:01 3 A. WE KNOW IT AT A FEW PLACES.
15:01 4 Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET'S PULL UP PAGE 25 OF THE POWERPOINT
15:01 5 AND TELL THE COURT ONE PLACE WE KNOW IT WITH ABSOLUTE
15:01 6 CERTAINTY.
15:01 7 A. OKAY. THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY PLACE -- WELL, IT IS THE
15:01 8 ONLY PLACE WHERE WE ACTUALLY HAVE A COMPLETE RECORD OF THE
15:01 9 SURGE, AND THAT IS FROM THE LOCK MASTER ACTUALLY HOURLY
15:01 10 GLANCING OUT OF HIS LITTLE GUARDHOUSE THERE ON THE IHNC LOCK
15:02 11 AND WRITING DOWN THE GAUGE READINGS EVERY HOUR. THAT IS SHOWN
15:02 12 IN THE BOTTOM DIAGRAM HERE. THIS IS FROM THE IPET REPORT.
15:02 13 THEN I PUT ON THE TOP OF THIS OUR FINEL SIMULATION,
15:02 14 AND I TRIED MY SPECIAL EFFECTS HERE -- NOT THAT GREAT, BUT I
15:02 15 TRIED TO MATCH THE TIME LINE. THE FACT IS THAT WE MATCHED THE
15:02 16 TIMING OF THE PEAK AT THIS POINT VERY, VERY CAREFULLY. WE
15:02 17 DIDN'T MATCH THE PEAK ELEVATION. WE ARE AT 17 FEET HERE. THE
15:02 18 PEAK ELEVATION IS A LITTLE ABOVE 14, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD
15:02 19 REASON FOR THAT.
15:02 20 Q. WELL, TELL THE COURT.
15:02 21 A. WELL, WHENEVER I RUN OR DR. VRIJLING RUNS THE FINEL MODEL
15:03 22 OR OUR GROUP AT LSU IS RUNNING ADCIRC OR DR. WESTERINK IS
15:03 23 RUNNING ADCIRC AT NOTRE DAME, WE NEVER IN OUR SURGE MODEL PUT
15:03 24 BREACHES INTO THAT SYSTEM.
15:03 25 SO WE DON'T MODEL THE SYSTEM AS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED
15:22 1 SEAS.
15:22 2 Q. THE BOTTOM LINE IS IPET AND ILIT FOUND LONGER AND SHORTER,
15:22 3 LESS-ENERGIZED WAVES THAN KATRINA REALITY PROVEN BY YOUR
15:22 4 TESTING?
15:22 5 A. OKAY. THAT'S A HARD -- I WOULD PUT IT DIFFERENTLY.
15:22 6 Q. PUT IT HOWEVER IT SHOULD -- I'M SORRY.
15:22 7 THE WITNESS: JUDGE, DID YOU HAVE A QUESTION?
15:22 8 THE COURT: I JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE LONGER,
15:22 9 SHORTER, ENERGIZED WAVES.
15:22 10 THE WITNESS: WELL, I HAD A LITTLE DIFFICULTY WITH
15:22 11 THAT TOO.
15:22 12 BY MR. ROY:
15:22 13 Q. LONGER IN WAVELENGTH?
15:22 14 A. OKAY. LONGER IN WAVELENGTH, CORRECT.
15:22 15 Q. LONGER WAVE --
15:22 16 A. OBVIOUSLY, 15 SECONDS -- REMEMBER, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
15:22 17 THE TIME THAT IT TAKES A WAVE CREST TO GO PAST A POST, LET'S
15:22 18 SAY, ON THE BEACH OR HOW OFTEN THE WAVES ARE BREAKING ON THE
15:23 19 BEACH. THAT'S EVERY 15 SECONDS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WAVES
15:23 20 THAT WERE GENERATED ACTUALLY WELL OFFSHORE THAT HAVE TRAVELED
15:23 21 INTO THE AREA.
15:23 22 WHEN THE SQUALL COMES UP AND THE THUNDERSTORM COMES
15:23 23 THROUGH, WHAT YOU SEE ARE WAVES THAT ARE 3, 4 SECONDS. THOSE
15:23 24 ARE LOCALLY GENERATED SEAS. MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING.
15:23 25 Q. WELL, LET ME TRY AGAIN.
15:25 1 COMING INTO, EFFECTIVELY, THE REACH 2 AREA WERE BASICALLY LONG,
15:25 2 ROLLING WAVES THAT HAVE LESS ENERGY AND IMPACT THAN 4- AND
15:25 3 5-SECOND WAVES THAT HIT QUICKLY WITH FAR HIGHER ENERGY?
15:25 4 A. THAT'S CORRECT. THESE ARE DYING WAVES, ESSENTIALLY, AS
15:25 5 OPPOSED TO BUILDING WAVES.
15:25 6 Q. THE SHORT WAVES ARE WHAT?
15:25 7 A. THEY ARE LOCALLY GENERATED. THEY ARE BUILDING UNDER THAT
15:25 8 90-MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS.
15:25 9 Q. HIGH-ENERGY WAVES?
15:25 10 A. OH, YES.
15:25 11 Q. ALL RIGHT. THE WAVE HEIGHT REPORTED THEN WAS ONE-THIRD OF
15:25 12 WHAT YOU AND THE DUTCH FOUND THEM TO BE?
15:25 13 A. ACTUALLY, THE WAVE HEIGHT THAT I SAW IN IPET WAS 5 FEET,
15:25 14 AND WE ARE REPORTING 9-FOOT WAVES IN THE SAME AREA --
15:25 15 Q. I STAND CORRECTED.
15:25 16 A. -- SO NOT QUITE.
15:25 17 Q. LET'S PULL UP PAGE 27 OF THE POWERPOINT. LET'S QUICKLY GO
15:26 18 THROUGH THE CONCEPTS OF THE WAVE MODELING, WHAT YOU DID. THEN
15:26 19 WE ARE GOING TO GO TO THE ACTUAL GRID AND SHOW HOW YOU WENT TWO
15:26 20 STEPS FURTHER WITH THE DUTCH THAN THE GOVERNMENT TEAMS DID.
15:26 21 A. THAT'S RIGHT. UNLIKE THE CIRCULATION MODELS THAT WE USED,
15:26 22 LIKE ADCIRC AND FINEL, WHICH HAVE THE ABILITY -- YOU CAN PUT A
15:26 23 LOT OF INTENSITY IN AREAS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN. IN WAVE
15:26 24 MODELING YOU HAVE TO USE A REGULAR GRID, LIKE A PIECE OF GRAPH
15:26 25 PAPER. SO YOU ARE ACTUALLY LOOKING AT WAVES ON A GRIDDED
15:26 1 SURFACE, AND THE GRID HAS TO BE THE SAME SIZE EVERYWHERE INSIDE
15:26 2 THE DOMAIN OF THE PALM.
15:26 3 THE ONLY WAY WE CAN CAPTURE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH
15:26 4 WAVES AT A HIGH RESOLUTION IS TO PROGRESSIVELY NEST GRIDS
15:26 5 INSIDE EACH OTHER UNTIL WE COME DOWN TO THE RESOLUTION THAT IS
15:26 6 NECESSARY TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT WE NEED TO ANSWER. SO
15:27 7 THE WAY THIS STARTS IS WE USE THE SURGE SURFACE GENERATED BY
15:27 8 THE -- IN THE CASE OF THE DEFENDANTS, THEY USED AN
15:27 9 ADCIRC-GENERATED SURFACE. WE USED A FINEL-GENERATED SURFACE.
15:27 10 THEN WE RUN THE WINDS OVER THAT, AND WE DEVELOP A SPECTRAL
15:27 11 CHARACTERIZATION OF THE WAVES THAT ARE IN THAT AREA.
15:27 12 Q. DR. KEMP, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE. GO TO PAGE 28 AND
15:27 13 EXPLAIN FOR THE JUDGE THIS CONCEPT OF NESTED GRIDS IN LANGUAGE
15:27 14 WE CAN UNDERSTAND.
15:27 15 A. OKAY. I'LL TRY. HERE WE SEE A SERIES OF BOXES INSIDE
15:27 16 EACH OTHER. MAYBE YOU CAN BLOW THAT UP SOME. OKAY.
15:27 17 SO THIS IS WHERE WE TAKE WAVES FROM -- WE START THE
15:27 18 SAME PLACE THAT THE DEFENDANTS DO. WE TAKE BOUNDARY CONDITIONS
15:28 19 FROM ANOTHER MODEL, WHICH EVERYBODY USES, THE OFFSHORE MODEL.
15:28 20 THEN WE USE THIS GRID FIRST. THE NEXT TIME, WE USE THIS ONE.
15:28 21 IT'S KIND OF LIKE IF I WANTED TO READ WHATEVER THE
15:28 22 LEAD ATTORNEY ON THE DEFENDANT'S SIDE IS WRITING ON HIS TABLET,
15:28 23 I CAN'T SEE IT FROM HERE, SO I HAVE TO TAKE PROGRESSIVELY
15:28 24 SMALLER -- I HAVE TO GET CLOSER OVER TIME.
15:28 25 THIS BIG GRID MIGHT BE THE WHOLE COURTROOM HERE.
15:28 1 THIS SMALLER GRID MIGHT INCLUDE THE ATTORNEYS' TABLE AND MAYBE
15:28 2 OUT TO WHERE YOU ARE, JUDGE. THEN THE NEXT GRID -- THAT'S THE
15:29 3 M GRID -- MIGHT REPRESENT TOP OF THEIR TABLE. THEN THE F AND
15:29 4 THE G GRIDS HERE WOULD ALLOW ME TO NOT ONLY SEE THAT THEY HAVE
15:29 5 A PAD OF PAPER IN FRONT OF THEM BUT ALSO WHAT THEY SAYS ON IT.
15:29 6 THE COURT: THIS MAY NOT BE AN APPROPRIATE ANALOGY,
15:29 7 BUT IS IT, IN A VERY SIMPLISTIC WAY, LIKE GETTING BETTER
15:29 8 RESOLUTION ON A CAMERA? IS IT A QUESTION OF ACHIEVING BETTER
15:29 9 FOCUS BY FINE-TUNING THE GRID?
15:29 10 THE WITNESS: YOU'RE JUST MORE ELOQUENT THAN I AM
15:29 11 ABOUT THIS. IT'S HARD FOR ME TO EXPLAIN IT, BUT I THINK YOU
15:29 12 GRASP IT PERFECTLY.
15:29 13 IF YOU LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT PAGE, WE
15:29 14 ACTUALLY QUANTIFY THAT. WHAT YOU SEE, THE LARGEST GRID, IF YOU
15:29 15 LOOK AT THE AREA -- OR, I'M SORRY, THE RESOLUTION HERE, YOU
15:29 16 WILL SEE THAT IT HAS A -- THE LENGTH ON EACH SIDE OF THAT GRID
15:30 17 IS 1,640 FEET, SO ABOUT A THIRD OF A MILE. THEN THE NEXT ONE
15:30 18 IS 656 BY 656.
15:30 19 NOW, I CAN TELL YOU BECAUSE I HAVE DONE THE
15:30 20 CALCULATION THAT THE SMALLEST CELL SIDE IN THE A GRID IS ABOUT
15:30 21 70 ACRES. IF I GO DOWN TO 656, THE SMALLEST CELL SIZE IS ABOUT
15:30 22 10 ACRES. THEN THE NEXT STEP DOWN, THAT'S 3 ACRES. OUR
15:30 23 FINEST-RESOLUTION GRID HAS A RESOLUTION OF A TENTH OF AN ACRE.
15:30 24 SO WE CAN SEE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN A GRID THAT IS
15:30 25 66 FEET ON EACH SIDE.
15:37 1 LEVEE, THEN THE WAVE ACTUALLY MOVES FROM A WAVE OF TRANSLATION,
15:37 2 WHERE THE FORM MOVES BUT THE WATER DOESN'T, TO A WAVE THAT'S
15:37 3 ACTUALLY TRANSPORTING WATER.
15:37 4 SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN BECAUSE
15:37 5 I STUDIED IT FOR MY DISSERTATION, BUT IT MAY BE OF LESS
15:37 6 INTEREST TO OTHERS.
15:37 7 Q. SO BEFORE WE GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE, THE ACTUAL COMPARISON
15:37 8 OF A 60-BY-60 GRID LIKE YOU USED, THAT'S 3,600 SQUARE FEET;
15:37 9 COMPARED TO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT USED, WHICH IS A GRID OF
15:37 10 430,000 SQUARE FEET. RIGHT?
15:38 11 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
15:38 12 Q. THE DIFFERENCE OF YOUR GRID OF ONE-TENTH OF AN ACRE; THEIR
15:38 13 GRID OF 10 ACRES?
15:38 14 A. YES. A HUNDRED --
15:38 15 Q. LET'S LOOK AT PAGE 136.
15:38 16 THE COURT: WHAT WAS THAT YOU WANTED TO SAY?
15:38 17 THE WITNESS: I'M JUST SAYING .1 TO TENTHS, WE ARE
15:38 18 MOVING THE DECIMAL PLACE TO A HUNDRED TIMES.
15:38 19 THE COURT: YES. HE WANTED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER. GO
15:38 20 AHEAD.
15:38 21 BY MR. ROY:
15:38 22 Q. PAGE 136, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO THE COURT WHAT WE ARE LOOKING
15:38 23 AT HERE.
15:38 24 A. OKAY.
15:38 25 Q. THIS IS DR. RESIO'S AND MR. EBERSOLE'S STUFF, IS IT NOT?
15:47 1 360 DEGREES -- THEY ACTUALLY WERE ABLE TO REPRODUCE THE -- THE
15:47 2 WAVE BUOYS WERE DOWN IN THIS AREA, AND WE ARE SEEING THE MODEL
15:47 3 PREDICTS 8-FOOT SEAS IN THIS AREA WITH A PERIOD OF 6 TO 7
15:47 4 SECONDS.
15:47 5 Q. ACTUALLY, THAT'S 8-FOOT OR BETTER WAVES, ISN'T IT?
15:47 6 A. THAT'S RIGHT, 8-FOOT OR HIGHER. BUT THE CONTOUR THAT'S
15:48 7 SHOWN THERE, I BELIEVE, IS 8-FOOT.
15:48 8 THE COURT: SO WHEN YOU SAY A FULL PLANE -- I'VE
15:48 9 NOTICED THAT IN THE REPORTS -- YOU MIGHT DESCRIBE FOR THE
15:48 10 RECORD WHAT A FULL PLANE IS. P-L-A-N-E.
15:48 11 THE WITNESS: YES. P-L-A-N-E. WHAT WE ARE TALKING
15:48 12 ABOUT THERE IS, IF WE DON'T KNOW THE DIRECTION THAT THE WAVES
15:48 13 ARE GOING TO COME FROM, THEN WE HAVE TO DO A MORE COMPREHENSIVE
15:48 14 ANALYSIS IN WHICH WE -- WHEN WE RUN THE WINDS OVER THE DOMAIN,
15:48 15 WE ALLOW WAVES TO BE GENERATED IN ALL DIRECTIONS. OKAY. SO WE
15:48 16 ARE NOT ASSUMING THAT WE ARE ONLY GOING TO LOOK AT WAVES COMING
15:48 17 FROM A CERTAIN DIRECTION.
15:48 18 IF WE HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT THE SYSTEM
15:48 19 THAT WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT -- LET'S SAY WE WERE MODELING
15:48 20 BEHIND AN INLET, AND WE KNEW THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT LARGE WAVES
15:48 21 COULD COME IN WAS THROUGH THE INLET, WE WOULD KNOW THE
15:48 22 DIRECTION THEY WERE COMING FROM, AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE TO
15:49 23 BOTHER WITH LOOKING AT WAVES GENERATED FROM ALL DIRECTIONS.
15:49 24 SO THIS IS THE WAY THEY DID IT HERE BECAUSE, IN
15:49 25 A HURRICANE WITH 90 MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS FLOWING AND CONSTANT
15:55 1 6:00 -- THAT'S ABOUT 2 1/2 HOURS BEFORE THE PEAK SURGE -- WE
15:55 2 HAVE 6- TO 7-FOOT WAVES IN THE MRGO CHANNEL, VERY SIMILAR TO
15:55 3 WHAT WE HAVE IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF LAKE BORGNE.
15:55 4 Q. SO WHAT WE ARE OBSERVING HERE AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING IS A
15:55 5 PHENOMENON THAT'S VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE SEE OFF THE BEACH,
15:56 6 AND THAT IS WHERE THERE'S A SANDBAR -- A DIFFERENT-PERIOD WAVE
15:56 7 PERHAPS, BUT THE WAVE IS COMING IN FROM OFFSHORE. IT GETS OVER
15:56 8 THE SANDBAR THAT'S MAYBE A FEW FEET DEEP, THE WAVE DROPS, AND
15:56 9 THEN IT COMES IN. OVER THE REMAINING FEW HUNDRED FEET TO
15:56 10 SHORE, IT POPS BACK UP WITH THE INTENSITY THAT IT HITS THE
15:56 11 SHORE. IS THAT THE REGENERATION CONCEPT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
15:56 12 A. YES. THE ONLY THING THAT I WOULD ADD IS THAT THAT WILL
15:56 13 ONLY OCCUR IF THERE'S A STIFF WIND BLOWING BECAUSE THE
15:56 14 REGENERATING AGENT IS REALLY THE STRESS ASSOCIATED WITH THE
15:56 15 WIND.
15:56 16 Q. WELL, PUTTING IT DIFFERENTLY, BECAUSE THESE WAVES COMING
15:56 17 OFF OF LAKE BORGNE AT THAT TIME WERE LOCALLY GENERATED,
15:56 18 HIGH-ENERGY, LOW-PERIOD WAVES, THEY WOULD COME OVER THE
15:56 19 MARSH -- WHICH IS ANALOGOUS TO THAT SANDBAR?
15:56 20 A. IT IS.
15:56 21 Q. THEY WOULD DROP DOWN FROM THE 8- TO 9-FOOT RANGE DOWN INTO
15:56 22 THE 4-FOOT RANGE OR SO. THEN WHEN THEY HIT THE MRGO, BECAUSE
15:57 23 OF THE ENERGY, THE KINETIC ENERGY, THEY SPRING BACK UP --
15:57 24 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
15:57 25 Q. -- AND THEN RACE ACROSS THE CHANNEL AND HIT THE LEVEES.
15:57 1 RIGHT?
15:57 2 A. YEAH. I WOULD PUT IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY IF YOU WILL
15:57 3 INDULGE ME.
15:57 4 Q. ABSOLUTELY.
15:57 5 A. WHAT I SAY IS ALL ACROSS HERE WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, 70 TO
15:57 6 80-MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS. SO THERE'S A LOT OF ENERGY BEING PUT
15:57 7 INTO THE WATER ALL THROUGH HERE. WHAT CHANGES IS THE AMOUNT OF
15:57 8 RESISTANCE THAT THE WAVES FEEL ON THE BOTTOM. OKAY.
15:57 9 THE MARSH HAS A TREMENDOUS ENERGY DISSIPATION EFFECT;
15:57 10 WHICH, AS THE WAVE MOVES IN AWAY FROM THE MARSH ONTO,
15:57 11 ESSENTIALLY, A MUD FLAT -- OF COURSE, I'M SPEAKING A LITTLE BIT
15:57 12 FIGURATIVELY BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE PROBABLY 15 FEET OF WATER
15:57 13 OVER THE MARSH IN THIS CASE -- THE ENERGY DISSIPATION DROPS
15:58 14 OFF. THEN WHEN IT GETS INTO THE CHANNEL, ESSENTIALLY, IT'S A
15:58 15 FRICTIONLESS ENVIRONMENT, AND THE WAVE ENERGY -- IT BEGINS TO
15:58 16 JUST SUCK WAVE ENERGY OUT OF THE WIND AND REBUILD.
15:58 17 Q. THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU'VE GOT WAVES AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING
15:58 18 IN THE MRGO REGENERATING UP TO THE 8-FOOT-OR-SO LEVEL IN MANY
15:58 19 PLACES SHOWN ON HERE, WHICH THEN ARE TRAVERSING AND GOING INTO
15:58 20 THE LEVEE?
15:58 21 A. THAT'S RIGHT. AT THAT POINT WE HAND THEM TO DR. BEA.
15:58 22 Q. NOW, LET'S GO TO THE 7:00 A.M., WHICH IS THE TOP RIGHT.
15:58 23 AT 7:00 WHAT DOES YOUR DETAILED SWAN SHOW TO BE -- LET ME MAKE
15:58 24 IT SIMPLE. IT SHOWS, BASICALLY, THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE MRGO
15:58 25 WITH 8-FOOT AND BIGGER WAVES; IS THAT RIGHT?
16:00 1 OFF TO THE SIDE, BUT I SEE WHITE BEHIND THE MRGO, ETC.
16:00 2 THE WITNESS: I CAN ADDRESS THAT IF YOU WOULD LIKE.
16:00 3 THE COURT: YES, SIR. IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE.
16:00 4 THE WITNESS: THE ONLY PLACE THERE AREN'T WAVES IS
16:00 5 WHERE THERE ISN'T WATER. FOR THE MOST PART, WE DON'T HAVE A
16:00 6 LOT OF WATER GOING OVER THE TOPS OF THESE LEVEES RIGHT NOW.
16:00 7 THE COURT: THIS IS AT --
16:00 8 THE WITNESS: THIS IS AT 8:00.
16:01 9 THE COURT: 8:00. THANK YOU.
16:01 10 BY MR. ROY:
16:01 11 Q. NOW, IN ESSENCE, THIS IS WHERE YOU HAND THIS INFORMATION
16:01 12 OFF TO DR. BEA, AND DR. BEA IS THEN ABLE TO EXPLAIN, WHEN YOU
16:01 13 HAVE THE REALITY OF THE PEAK SURGE SHOWN AT THE LOCK, WHY THAT
16:01 14 SLIDE IS STILL NOT SHOWING OVERTOPPING. THE ANSWER IS EARLIER
16:01 15 BREACHING; RIGHT?
16:01 16 A. THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
16:01 17 Q. THAT'S THE ONLY SCIENTIFIC ANSWER YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO COME
16:01 18 UP WITH, WORKING WITH YOUR TEAM; RIGHT?
16:01 19 A. THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN -- WE HAVE TESTED ALL THE OTHER
16:01 20 POSSIBILITIES, AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE ARRIVED AT.
16:01 21 Q. THE CONCEPT OF WAVE REGENERATION HAS BEEN KNOWN BY THE
16:01 22 CORPS AT LEAST SINCE THEIR 1966 SHORE PROTECTION MANUAL --
16:01 23 WHICH IS IN EVIDENCE AS PX-2152, YOUR HONOR -- IS THAT CORRECT,
16:01 24 DR. KEMP?
16:02 25 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
16:02 1 Q. IF YOU KNOW WIND SPEED, DEPTH, AND THE FETCH, YOU CAN
16:02 2 PREDICT WAVE REGENERATION?
16:02 3 A. THAT'S RIGHT. AND TIME ALSO.
16:02 4 Q. NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE WIDENING OF THE MRGO AT REACH 2.
16:02 5 MR. ROY: CAN YOU PULL UP PAGE 7 OF THE POWERPOINT,
16:02 6 CARL.
16:02 7 BY MR. ROY:
16:02 8 Q. YOU HAVE ACTUALLY, USING THE DATA YOU HAVE GATHERED AND
16:02 9 APPLYING YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINIONS, YOUR EXPERT OPINIONS, AND
16:02 10 THOSE OF YOUR TEAM, DONE WHAT ILLUSTRATING HERE?
16:02 11 A. HERE I JUST -- THIS WAS A VERY SIMPLE EXERCISE WITH A MAP
16:02 12 OR A SATELLITE PHOTOGRAPH. EVERY THOUSAND FEET, I MEASURED THE
16:02 13 WIDTH BETWEEN THE VEGETATION ALONG THE MRGO, AND WHAT YOU SEE
16:02 14 ON THIS -- THIS IS THE MILES ALONG MRGO. MRGO ENDS IN THE IHNC
16:03 15 AT MILE 66, OR CLOSE TO THAT, AND THEN OUR LEVEE SYSTEM ENDS
16:03 16 AROUND 46 HERE.
16:03 17 SO FOR THAT PART, THE AXIS ON THE Y SIDE IS SHOWING
16:03 18 THE WIDTH, TOP WIDTH, OF THE -- IT'S REALLY THE DISTANCE
16:03 19 BETWEEN THE VEGETATION. WE HAVE HERE THE DESIGN TOP WIDTH,
16:03 20 650 FEET. THEN WE CAN COMPARE THAT AT ANY OF THESE POINTS WITH
16:03 21 THE TOP WIDTH OR THE AREA BETWEEN THE VEGETATION.
16:03 22 Q. DR. KEMP, LET'S BE MORE SPECIFIC IN USING AN EXAMPLE SO US
16:03 23 LAYMEN CAN UNDERSTAND. JUST TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, AT ABOUT MILE
16:03 24 MARKER 47.
16:03 25 A. OKAY. THAT WOULD BE --
16:03 1 Q. ALL RIGHT. WALK US FROM THE BOTTOM UP AND TELL US WHAT IT
16:04 2 SHOWS, HOW WE WOULD USE THIS GRAPH.
16:04 3 A. I'M NOT VERY STEADY WITH THIS THING, BUT THAT WOULD BE
16:04 4 ABOUT MILE 57 -- 47 THERE, WHICH IS -- IT'S KIND OF CLOSE TO
16:04 5 THE END OF THE LEVEE SYSTEM.
16:04 6 IF I WENT UP THERE, I WOULD FIND, OKAY, I'VE GOT THE
16:04 7 DISTANCE BETWEEN THE VEGETATION IS ABOUT A LITTLE OVER
16:04 8 2,000 FEET. SO I CAN CONCLUDE THAT THE CHANNEL, AT LEAST THE
16:04 9 PART THAT'S FREE OF VEGETATION, HAS INCREASED FROM 650 FEET TO
16:04 10 2,000 FEET.
16:04 11 Q. WHAT ABOUT THE DOT RIGHT THERE, A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO 46?
16:04 12 WHAT WOULD THAT REFLECT?
16:04 13 THE COURT: REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS, 46. IS THIS SIMPLY
16:04 14 A DEMONSTRATIVE EXHIBIT?
16:04 15 MR. ROY: YES, SIR. THAT'S ALL IT IS.
16:04 16 THE WITNESS: I MEAN, I THINK MANY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
16:04 17 THAT THE MRGO HAS EXPANDED, AND THIS IS JUST AN EFFORT TO PUT
16:05 18 IT ON ONE GRAPHIC, MY EFFORT.
16:05 19 BY MR. ROY:
16:05 20 Q. USING PRIMARILY THE DATA AND THE SURVEY INFORMATION
16:05 21 EXTRACTED FROM THE GIS?
16:05 22 A. ACTUALLY, I DID IT MORE SIMPLY THAN THAT. I JUST SCALED
16:05 23 IT OFF WITH THE CALIPERS.
16:05 24 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SO THIS SIMPLY SHOWS, AS I
16:05 25 UNDERSTAND IT, THE DESIGN TOP WIDTH, AND THEN AT POINTS ALONG
16:05 1 THAT WIDTH IT IS JUST WIDENED AND THE AMOUNT OF WIDENING AND
16:05 2 WHERE IT TAKES PLACE. IS THAT --
16:05 3 THE WITNESS: THAT'S CORRECT. IT'S A VERY SIMPLE
16:05 4 THING. I SAID I DID IT EVERY THOUSAND FEET. I DIDN'T. IT'S
16:05 5 OBVIOUS I DID IT EVERY MILE. SO IT'S NOT AS FREQUENT AS THAT.
16:05 6 BY MR. ROY:
16:05 7 Q. IS THIS PART OF THE FIELD SCIENCE THAT YOU APPLY ROUTINELY
16:05 8 IN YOUR PROFESSIONAL AREA OF EXPERTISE -- NOT THE GRAPHIC BUT
16:05 9 MAKING THE MEASUREMENTS AND CORRELATING THEM -- AS PART OF AN
16:06 10 ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND A COMPREHENSIVE PROBLEM AND A
16:06 11 COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION?
16:06 12 A. YES. THIS IS TRYING -- IT'S A MEASURE OF ENVIRONMENTAL
16:06 13 CHANGE IS WHAT IT IS.
16:06 14 Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, LET'S GO BACK TO THE WAVES REGENERATING
16:06 15 AFTER THEY PASS THE SANDBAR AND TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE. IS
16:06 16 THAT THE SAME CONCEPT, FROM AN ANALOGY STANDPOINT, THAT WHAT
16:06 17 HAPPENED, IF WAVES WERE COMING ACROSS, SAY, A LARGELY INLAND
16:06 18 LAKE OR AN ENCLOSED AREA SUCH AS BORGNE OR SOMETHING, IF THERE
16:06 19 WERE A BIG BORROW PIT A FEW HUNDRED FEET OR A FEW HUNDRED YARDS
16:06 20 OFF THE SHORE, THAT SUDDENLY IT'S DEEPER, WHERE STUFF HAS BEEN
16:06 21 EXCAVATED, WOULD YOU EXPECT, THEN, TO SEE A REGENERATION OF THE
16:06 22 WAVES, AT LEAST OVER THAT PIT?
16:06 23 A. YOU WOULD, AND YOU WOULD ALSO SEE THE WAVE CRESTS BEND
16:06 24 AROUND THAT PIT. THERE WOULD BE DEFRACTION. THAT'S A PRETTY
16:07 25 STANDARD PROBLEM THAT WE GIVE THE STUDENTS.
16:08 1 THE SAME MATERIALS AND SO ON, SO THAT'S NOT A VARIABLE AND --
16:08 2 Q. JUST TO BE CLEAR THERE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ONLY THE AREA
16:09 3 OF THE VERRETT LEVEE RIGHT THERE THAT I'M SHOWING; RIGHT?
16:09 4 A. YES.
16:09 5 Q. AND THE PORTION GENERALLY, THE YELLOW CIRCLES, IF YOU
16:09 6 WILL, ON REACH 2, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS
16:09 7 BUILT FROM THE SAME TYPE OF MATERIAL?
16:09 8 A. THAT'S RIGHT. IT'S NOT A CONSTRUCTION DIFFERENCE.
16:09 9 Q. ALL RIGHT. WELL, OBSERVATIONALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY, WERE
16:09 10 THERE ANY BREACHES IN THE VERRETT SECTION OF THE LEVEE?
16:09 11 A. NO.
16:09 12 Q. BUT THERE, OF COURSE, WERE MANY ALONG REACH 2; RIGHT?
16:09 13 A. THAT'S RIGHT, AND THIS IS JUST A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.
16:09 14 Q. WERE THERE ANY BREACHES OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE ON THE
16:09 15 SOUTH-SIDE LPVS ALONG REACH 1?
16:09 16 A. NO, THERE WEREN'T. OF COURSE, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE
16:09 17 SIGNIFICANT WAVE ATTACK THERE.
16:09 18 Q. BUT THEY DID OVERTOP?
16:09 19 A. OH, YES, THEY OVERTOPPED. THOSE WERE LOWER LEVEES.
16:09 20 Q. THE NORTH SIDE OF REACH 2, THOSE LPVS, I KNOW THAT THERE
16:10 21 WERE A FEW SMALL BREACHES IN THAT GENERAL AREA, BUT THERE WERE
16:10 22 NO SIGNIFICANT BREACHES; RIGHT?
16:10 23 A. THE ONLY BREACHES WERE ASSOCIATED WITH SOME SHEET-PILE
16:10 24 SECTIONS.
16:10 25 Q. THE OVERTOPPING ITSELF, ALBEIT PROLONGED, DID NOT DESTROY
16:13 1 AND THEY HIT THE MARKS IN TERMS OF MAXIMUM SURGE ELEVATION AND
16:13 2 TIMING.
16:13 3 THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT STEVE FITZGERALD'S
16:13 4 HEC-RAS MODEL THERE -- THAT'S THE DEFENDANT'S FLOODING MODEL --
16:14 5 SHOWS ALMOST THE SAME THING. SO THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE
16:14 6 TIMING OF THE PEAK SURGE. WE GET TO THE SAME RESULT IN
16:14 7 FLOODING WHILE KEEPING THE PEAK SURGE WHERE IT ACTUALLY WAS.
16:14 8 THEY GET THAT ONLY BY MOVING THE SURGE AHEAD ONE HOUR.
16:14 9 BY MR. ROY:
16:14 10 Q. BUT THAT'S NOT REALITY?
16:14 11 A. THAT'S NOT REALITY.
16:14 12 THE COURT: SO IF THE DEFENDANT'S EXPERTS ARE
16:14 13 RIGHT -- I KNOW YOU ADAMANTLY DISAGREE WITH IT -- ABOUT THE
16:14 14 PEAK SURGE, THEN OVERTOPPING COULD HAVE FLOODED ST. BERNARD?
16:14 15 THE WITNESS: ABSOLUTELY.
16:14 16 THE COURT: WHY IS THAT, JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR? I'M
16:14 17 SURE THE DEFENSE EXPERTS WILL, BUT JUST TO --
16:14 18 THE WITNESS: I AM MAYBE NOT THE BEST PERSON TO ARGUE
16:14 19 THEIR CASE, BUT THE --
16:14 20 THE COURT: I KNOW THEY WILL BE READY TO DO IT. GO
16:14 21 AHEAD.
16:14 22 THE WITNESS: BUT IT IS POSSIBLE AND WE DO NOT
16:14 23 DISPUTE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO BREACH A LEVEE BY OVERTOPPING OF
16:15 24 SIGNIFICANT FLOW AND --
16:15 25 THE COURT: IT'S THE WHOLE MECHANISM, THE MECHANISM
16:17 1 WOULD HELP PREVENT THE PROBLEM AT REACH 2. YOU AND OTHER
16:17 2 EXPERTS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS' TEAM HAVE DESCRIBED THE NEED FOR
16:17 3 REMEDIATION TO BE DONE BY THE CORPS YEARS BEFORE KATRINA THAT
16:17 4 WAS NOT DONE THAT COULD HAVE EFFECTIVELY, DRAMATICALLY CHANGED
16:17 5 THE OUTCOME. AMONG THESE THINGS, DO YOU AGREE WITH
16:17 6 DR. GAGLIANO THAT THE FIRST ONE AND PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT
16:17 7 WAS TO PREVENT SALTWATER INTRUSION, AVERTING SEVERE WETLAND
16:17 8 LOSS?
16:17 9 A. THAT WAS THE BIGGEST REGIONAL EFFECT THAT THEY --
16:17 10 REMEDIATION.
16:17 11 Q. DO YOU AGREE WITH DR. GAGLIANO THAT THE CORPS SHOULD HAVE
16:17 12 ARMORED BOTH BANKS OF REACH 2 AND THE LAKE BORGNE SHORELINES?
16:17 13 A. NO QUESTION.
16:17 14 Q. DO YOU AGREE WITH DR. GAGLIANO THE BENEFICIAL DEPOSITING
16:17 15 OF DREDGED SPOIL ON THE EAST BANK -- THAT'S THE LAKE BORGNE
16:17 16 BANK OF REACH 2 -- SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE CORPS DECADES
16:17 17 AGO TO RESTORE THE LAND BRIDGE BETWEEN LAKE BORGNE AND REACH 2?
16:18 18 A. YES. WE SAW THAT WAS AN AVENUE FOR SURGE TRANSMISSION
16:18 19 BOTH SURGE AND WAVE TRANSMISSION.
16:18 20 Q. DO YOU AGREE, DR. GAGLIANO, THAT PLANTING TREES, SHRUBS,
16:18 21 AND GRASS ALONG THE REACH 2 CHANNEL AND THE TOE OF THE LPV
16:18 22 STRUCTURE, PLANTING GRASS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CROWN OF THE LPV
16:18 23 STRUCTURE, TOO, SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO REMEDIATE THE EFFECTS
16:18 24 OF THE MRGO CHANNEL?
16:18 25 A. ABSOLUTELY. AND, OF COURSE, DR. BEA HAS REALLY EXPLORED
16:22 1 SAYING THAT WE ARE GETTING INTO THE SOBEK MODEL AS OPPOSED TO
16:23 2 SOMETHING ELSE?
16:23 3 MR. ROY: IT'S THE POLDER MODELING. I WAS MERELY
16:23 4 ESTABLISHING THAT'S WHAT THE DUTCH USED.
16:23 5 THE COURT: I FORGOT THE QUESTION. TO BE HONEST WITH
16:23 6 YOU, I FORGET THE QUESTION TO WHICH THERE WAS AN OBJECTION, AND
16:23 7 I APOLOGIZE.
16:24 8 MR. ROY: I'LL COVER IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY,
16:24 9 YOUR HONOR. THAT'S FINE.
16:24 10 BY MR. ROY:
16:24 11 Q. DR. KEMP, ANYWHERE IN YOUR REPORTS DO YOU DISCUSS VARIOUS
16:24 12 SCENARIOS OF FLOODING THAT YOUR TEAM, INCLUDING THE DUTCH, RAN?
16:24 13 A. THAT'S PRIMARILY IN MY FIRST REPORT, THE JULY 27, 2007,
16:24 14 REPORT.
16:24 15 THE COURT: LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION WITHOUT PUTTING
16:24 16 YOU ON THE SPOT. WE ARE GOING TO TRY TO GO TO 5:30 TODAY. I'M
16:24 17 NOT SURE YOU CAN FINISH THIS WITNESS, BUT DO WE HAVE A SHOT?
16:24 18 NO PRESSURE ON YOU.
16:24 19 MR. ROY: IT'S GOING TO BE CLOSE, BUT WE MIGHT.
16:24 20 THE COURT: WE'LL TAKE A QUICK -- IT WILL BE OUR LAST
16:24 21 RECESS OF THE DAY UNTIL ADJOURNMENT. WE WILL BE BACK IN TEN
16:24 22 MINUTES.
16:25 23 THE DEPUTY CLERK: ALL RISE.
16:25 24 (WHEREUPON THE COURT TOOK A BRIEF RECESS.)
16:37 25 THE DEPUTY CLERK: ALL RISE, PLEASE.
16:39 1 THAT WAS USED, BUT HE DOESN'T REALLY EVER PRODUCE ANY RESULTS
16:39 2 FROM THE MODEL IN HIS EXPERT REPORT.
16:39 3 THE COURT: WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF HE DOES OR NOT.
16:39 4 MR. ROY: IT SOUNDS LIKE CROSS-EXAMINATION MATERIAL.
16:39 5 THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK HIM WHAT UTILIZATION HE MADE
16:40 6 OF SOBEK. I'LL ALLOW THAT AND WE'LL GO FROM THERE. FEEL FREE
16:40 7 TO OBJECT AGAIN.
16:40 8 BY MR. ROY:
16:40 9 Q. SO, DR. KEMP, YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE CHAPTER IN YOUR REPORT
16:40 10 ADDRESSING POLDER MODEL SCENARIOS, IF YOU WILL; RIGHT?
16:40 11 A. WE HAVE AN ANALYTICAL SCHEME IN WHICH WE HAVE CERTAIN
16:40 12 SCENARIOS LISTED. THOSE SCENARIOS ARE RUN IN A VARIETY OF
16:40 13 MODELS, INCLUDING THE POLDER MODEL. THE PLACE WHERE WE TALK
16:40 14 THE MOST ABOUT POLDER MODELING IS IN MY JULY 28, 2007 REPORT
16:40 15 THAT WAS VERY EARLY IN THIS EFFORT.
16:40 16 THE ANALYTICAL SCHEME CALLED FOR ME TO HAND THE WAVES
16:41 17 AND SURGE INFORMATION OFF TO BOB BEA AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE
16:41 18 MRGO CHANNEL, WHEREUPON HE WOULD THEN COME UP WITH THE TIMING
16:41 19 AND CAUSATION OF BREACHING. THEN HE WOULD HAND THAT
16:41 20 INFORMATION BACK TO ME, AND I WOULD TRANSMIT IT TO THE DUTCH.
16:41 21 DR. VRIJLING THEN RAN THE POLDER MODEL, AND I THINK HE HAS
16:41 22 DESCRIBED IT IN CONSIDERABLE DETAIL. IT IS THE FINAL PHASE IN
16:41 23 OUR ANALYTICAL APPROACH. ACTUALLY, IN MY JULY REPORT, MY MOST
16:41 24 RECENT ONE --
16:41 25 MR. ROY: PX-91.
16:50 1 Q. NOW, IS THAT WHERE YOU ACTUALLY MODELED, USING FINEL, THE
16:51 2 FLOW RATE AND VOLUME?
16:51 3 A. THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S ONE OF THE ADVANTAGES OF HAVING A
16:51 4 FULL-CIRCULATION MODEL. WE CAN LOOK AT NOT JUST STAGE HEIGHT,
16:51 5 WE CAN ALSO LOOK AT DISCHARGE IN THE CHANNELS, ALSO DISCHARGE
16:51 6 OVER THE LOW-LYING LEVEES ON EITHER SIDE.
16:51 7 Q. WHICH FULL-CIRCULATION MODEL DID THE GOVERNMENT USE?
16:51 8 A. ADCIRC MODEL IS QUITE CAPABLE OF DOING THE SAME THINGS.
16:51 9 Q. ALL RIGHT. SO, LOOKING AT THIS, FOR EXAMPLE, SURGE
16:51 10 ELEVATION, IN YOUR OPINION, WHEN YOU CROWD WATER INTO A NARROW,
16:51 11 RESTRICTED CHANNEL, SURGE ELEVATION IS NOT A SENSITIVE
16:51 12 INDICATOR. VOLUME IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN SURGE HEIGHT. IS
16:52 13 THAT RIGHT?
16:52 14 A. WELL, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE --
16:52 15 Q. REACH 1?
16:52 16 A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT. AND THAT IS BECAUSE, REMEMBER, THE
16:52 17 WALLS OF THIS BATHTUB ARE NOT CHANGING AS THE WATER COMES UP.
16:52 18 SO IF ALL YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS THE PEAK WATER LEVEL, YOU'LL
16:52 19 FIND OUT THAT AFTER A WHILE IT GIVES YOU A VERY GOOD READING ON
16:52 20 WHAT THE AVERAGE ELEVATION OF THE LEVEES IS. IF YOU LOOK AT
16:52 21 THE DISCHARGE, YOU WILL FIND THAT THAT'S VERY SENSITIVE.
16:52 22 THIS IS A LITTLE BIT COMPLICATED, BUT WE HAVE TIME
16:52 23 HERE IN THE FIRST COLUMN AT HOURLY INTERVALS, STARTING AT
16:52 24 4:00 IN THE MORNING AND GOING TO 9:00. I'VE HIGHLIGHTED THE
16:52 25 8:00 PERIOD.
16:58 1 SEASHORE AND, AS THE SURGE WOULD COME UP, IT WOULD JUST GET
16:58 2 HIGHER AND HIGHER GOING UP INTO -- AS THE FUNNEL NARROWS, YOU
16:58 3 CAN'T DO THAT IN THIS ARTIFICIAL FUNNEL BECAUSE IT'S BOUNDED BY
16:58 4 THESE ARTIFICIAL LEVEES RATHER THAN A NATURAL SEASHORE.
16:58 5 SO THE SURGE WOULD LIKE TO DO THE SAME THING. IT
16:58 6 WOULD LIKE TO RISE AS YOU MOVE INTO THE FUNNEL, BUT INSTEAD,
16:58 7 WHAT IT DOES IS THE WATER JUST OVERFLOWS INTO THE ADJACENT
16:58 8 AREAS. SO THIS WAS ONE OF THE THINGS WE SAW IN THE IPET
16:58 9 SIMULATIONS WAS THAT ALTHOUGH -- AND THERE THEY ONLY TOOK OUT
16:58 10 THE REACH 2. THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT REACH 1.
16:58 11 BUT WHAT WE SAW WAS, WHEN THEY DID TAKE THE REACH 2
16:58 12 CHANNEL OUT, IT REDUCED FLOODING IN THE DEVELOPED AREAS. SO
16:59 13 THAT GAVE US, I GUESS, THE GERM OF THAT IDEA ABOUT THE BATHTUB.
16:59 14 SO THE PRESENCE OF THE LARGE MRGO CHANNEL GREATLY INCREASES
16:59 15 CONVEYANCE OF SURGE FROM REACH 1 TO REACH 2 AND INTO THE IHNC.
16:59 16 THE CREST ELEVATION OF THE LPV LEVEES PROVIDES A MAXIMUM LIMIT
16:59 17 ON HOW HIGH SURGE GETS, ESSENTIALLY, EAST OF THE
16:59 18 REACH 1/REACH 2 JUNCTION.
16:59 19 NOW, INSIDE THAT CHANNEL SYSTEM, THE SURGE CAN
16:59 20 ACTUALLY GET HIGHER THAN THE LEVEE HEIGHT BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS
16:59 21 HUGE AMOUNT OF WATER CONVERGING INTO THAT AREA. THE MRGO
16:59 22 CHANNEL IS A HUGE SPIGOT INTO THE BATHTUB, BASICALLY, WHICH HAS
16:59 23 A LIMITED ABILITY TO DRAIN, BUT THE SURGE IS NOT GOING TO -- IF
16:59 24 ALL YOU LOOK AT IS SURGE ELEVATION, YOU WILL MISS ALL THE
16:59 25 DYNAMICS.
17:02 1 IN SIZE OR QUADRUPLES IN SIZE AND EVEN GETS DEEPER, THEN IT'S
17:02 2 LIKE CONVERTING A 1-INCH BY 1-INCH, LIKE YOU SAID, TO A
17:02 3 FIREHOSE AIMED STRAIGHT AT THE CONVERGENCE POINT. RIGHT?
17:02 4 A. THAT'S WHAT THE FINEL MODEL SHOWS, YES.
17:03 5 Q. SO WE'RE VERY, VERY CLEAR HERE, WHILE THE FUNNEL EXISTED,
17:03 6 AND THE CORPS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN IT, IN YOUR OPINION, WHEN THEY
17:03 7 BUILT THE MRGO, THE PRIMARY DRIVING FACTOR FROM A STANDPOINT OF
17:03 8 DRIVING THE VELOCITY AND VOLUME OF THE SURGE UNDER THE PARIS
17:03 9 ROAD BRIDGE IN REACH 1 WAS THE ENLARGEMENT OF THE MRGO OVER THE
17:03 10 DECADES IN WIDTH AND DEPTH, AND EVEN THEN THE ENLARGEMENT OF
17:03 11 THE REACH 1 A LITTLE BIT IN DEPTH AND REACH?
17:03 12 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
17:03 13 Q. WITHOUT THAT, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY LESS
17:03 14 FLOODING OF NEW ORLEANS EAST -- THE ROBINSONS WOULD HAVE HAD
17:03 15 HALF THE FLOODING -- WITH NO REMEDIATION OTHER THAN JUST HAVING
17:03 16 IT THE WAY IT WAS BUILT ORIGINALLY. RIGHT?
17:03 17 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
17:03 18 Q. YOU HAVE PROVED THESE THINGS WITH YOUR MODEL; IS THAT
17:03 19 RIGHT?
17:03 20 A. YES. A LOT OF IT IS IN THE SAME WAY THAT BRETSCHNEIDER
17:04 21 AND COLLINS SHOWED. WHAT IT DOES IS IT CHANGES THE DURATION OF
17:04 22 THE FLOODING. YOU MAY NOT SEE A BIG CHANGE IN THE MAXIMUM, BUT
17:04 23 YOU SEE A BIG CHANGE IN THE DURATION OF THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT
17:04 24 IT'S ABOVE THE LEVEE HEIGHT.
17:04 25 Q. IN YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION, DO YOU AGREE THAT THE KEY TO
17:04 1 WHEN NEW ORLEANS EAST FLOODED AS MUCH AS IT DID DURING KATRINA
17:04 2 IS THE OVERTOPPING OF THE REACH 1 NORTH LEVEE -- THAT'S THE
17:04 3 CITRUS BACK LEVEE -- BEING THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF EXCESS
17:04 4 VELOCITY, EXCESS SURGE VOLUME, SHOVED DOWN REACH 1 AT THE PARIS
17:04 5 BRIDGE AREA AND THROUGH REACH 1 BY THAT AGGRAVATED MRGO
17:04 6 REACH 2?
17:04 7 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
17:04 8 Q. SINCE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION?
17:04 9 A. YEAH. I CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT WITH A HYDROGRAPH OR
17:05 10 SOMETHING, BUT --
17:05 11 Q. IF YOU WOULD LIKE.
17:05 12 A. OKAY. THIS IS ACTUALLY AN OVERTOPPING HYDROGRAPH. SO
17:05 13 WHAT WE SEE ON THE TOP HERE IS THAT CITRUS BACK LEVEE, AND WHAT
17:05 14 WE HAVE ON THE SIDE IS THE OVERTOPPING RATE, WHICH IS GIVEN IN
17:05 15 CUBIC FEET PER SECOND PER LINEAR FOOT AT THE TOP.
17:05 16 THE COURT: FOR THE RECORD, YOU'RE REFERRING TO YOUR
17:05 17 EXPERT REPORT, PAGE 135?
17:05 18 MR. ROY: YES, SIR. PX-91.
17:05 19 THE COURT: PX-91.
17:05 20 THE WITNESS: THEN WE HAVE TIME ALONG THE BOTTOM
17:05 21 AXIS, AND THE THREE CURVES THAT ARE OF INTEREST HERE IS THE --
17:05 22 I'M SORRY, I'M POINTING AT THE THING ON MY SCREEN -- BLUE LINE,
17:05 23 WHICH IS THE KATRINA AS IS. THE DOTTED RED LINE IS THE
17:05 24 SITUATION WITH THE SCENARIO 3, THAT IS THE CONDITION WHEN
17:06 25 THE --
17:09 1 EXAMPLE, IF WE HAD THE 2C -- 100 PERCENT IS WHAT YOU GET UNDER
17:09 2 SCENARIO 1. IF YOU HAVE 2C, THEN YOU ONLY GET 18 PERCENT OF
17:09 3 THE FLOODING. IF YOU HAVE 3, YOU GET 75 PERCENT IN NEW ORLEANS
17:09 4 EAST. OKAY. AND THEN FOR -- I'M SORRY.
17:09 5 Q. I WAS GOING TO SAY, CAN YOU MOVE A LITTLE BIT SLOWER SO WE
17:09 6 CAN ASSIMILATE THIS. IT'S A TOUGH CHART FOR LAYMEN TO LOOK AT.
17:09 7 A. YOU CAN LOOK AT EACH INDIVIDUAL LEVEE SEGMENT IF YOU WOULD
17:09 8 LIKE, BUT --
17:09 9 THE COURT: LET'S GO FOR THE NEW ORLEANS EAST POLDER.
17:10 10 WE KNOW UNDER SCENARIO 1, OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S WHAT REALLY
17:10 11 HAPPENED. THAT'S THE FLOODING THAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED.
17:10 12 THE WITNESS: THAT'S RIGHT.
17:10 13 THE COURT: I'M GOING TO GO RIGHT TO 2C, WHICH IS THE
17:10 14 NEUTRAL MRGO, OR THE MITIGATED MRGO, WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL
17:10 15 IT. ONLY 18 PERCENT OF THE FLOODING WOULD HAVE OCCURRED, AND
17:10 16 IS THAT WITHIN THE ENTIRE POLDER?
17:10 17 THE WITNESS: THAT'S 18 PERCENT OF THE FLOW OVER THAT
17:10 18 LEVEE. NOW, THAT FLOW OVER THAT LEVEE IS THE MAIN SOURCE OF
17:10 19 OVERTOPPING INTO THAT POLDER, YES.
17:10 20 THE COURT: WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POLDER,
17:10 21 THERE'S A PART OF THE NEW ORLEANS POLDER THAT'S NOT INHABITED?
17:10 22 THE WITNESS: YEAH. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE INHABITED
17:10 23 AREAS.
17:10 24 THE COURT: SO IF THERE WAS NO MRGO OR NEUTRAL MRGO,
17:10 25 WHATEVER, THEN IF THE FLOODING -- AND I'M GOING TO DO THIS
17:13 1 IS IT?
17:13 2 A. NO.
17:13 3 Q. NOW, THIS CHART IS IN EVIDENCE, SO WE WON'T BEAT THAT
17:13 4 HORSE INTO THE GROUND.
17:14 5 THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS, AND WE HAVE
17:14 6 ILLUSTRATED HOW TO RIDE THE HORSE ANYWAY.
17:14 7 MR. ROY: YES, SIR.
17:14 8 THE COURT: I'M SURE WE WILL BE SEEING IT TOMORROW AS
17:14 9 WELL.
17:14 10 MR. ROY: I BET WE WILL.
17:14 11 BY MR. ROY:
17:14 12 Q. SO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE MRGO REACH 1 AND REACH 2, AS THEY
17:14 13 BOTH ENLARGED IN DEPTH AND WIDTH SINCE ORIGINAL DESIGN AND
17:14 14 CONSTRUCTION, SIGNIFICANTLY CONTRIBUTED TO THE VOLUME AND
17:14 15 DURATION OF THE SURGE IN REACH 1 THAT OVERTOPPED THE CITRUS
17:14 16 BACK LEVEE AND CONTRIBUTED TO THE ROBINSONS' FLOODING; IS THAT
17:14 17 RIGHT?
17:14 18 A. NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
17:14 19 Q. IN FACT, IF IT HAD NOT ENLARGED, ALL RIGHT, IF I
17:14 20 UNDERSTOOD YOU CORRECTLY, STRICTLY WITH THAT, WITHOUT ANY OTHER
17:14 21 REMEDIATION WHATSOEVER, IT'S HALF THE FLOODING?
17:14 22 A. THAT'S MY OPINION.
17:14 23 Q. THE FULLY MITIGATED MRGO FLOW COMPARISONS AT PEAK SURGE,
17:14 24 8:00 A.M., OVERTOPPING IS REDUCED, BOTTOM LINE, 82 PERCENT IN
17:15 25 NEW ORLEANS EAST; IS THAT RIGHT?
17:16 1 FROM THE FAILURE OF REACH 2; ABOUT 10 PERCENT FROM THE FAILURE
17:16 2 OF FLOOD WALLS.
17:16 3 THE COURT: IN THE LOWER NINTH?
17:16 4 THE WITNESS: THAT'S CORRECT.
17:16 5 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
17:16 6 BY MR. ROY:
17:16 7 Q. DID YOU OR YOUR TEAM EVER DETERMINE IF THERE WAS A SECOND
17:17 8 SURGE, LIKE DR. WESTERINK OPINED AND LIKE THE JUDGE REFERRED TO
17:17 9 EARLIER TODAY?
17:17 10 A. THE ONLY THING I COULD LOOK AT WAS -- THE ONLY RECORD THAT
17:17 11 WAS ACTUALLY CONTEMPORANEOUS, WHICH IS THE LOCK MASTER'S
17:17 12 RECORD, IT DOES NOT SHOW THAT SECOND SURGE. BUT WE SHOW A
17:17 13 SMALL HUMP ON SOME OF OUR FINEL RESULTS THAT COULD BE ANALOGOUS
17:17 14 TO THE LARGE HUMP THAT DR. WESTERINK SHOWS. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO
17:17 15 SHOW UP IN THE ONLY RECORD THAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE.
17:17 16 Q. NOTHING YOU HAVE SHOWS THIS DRAMATIC SECOND SURGE THAT
17:17 17 COMES BACK AND SITS THERE FOR A WHILE BEFORE GRADUALLY COMING
17:17 18 BACK DOWN; RIGHT?
17:17 19 A. NO. UNTIL I SAW DR. WESTERINK'S CHRISTMAS REPORT, I HAD
17:17 20 NEVER SEEN ANY DEPICTION OF SURGE, CERTAINLY NOT IN IPET.
17:18 21 Q. IS THAT USING THAT NEW ADCIRC, THAT SL15?
17:18 22 A. I THINK YOU WILL HAVE TO ASK DR. WESTERINK ABOUT THAT.
17:18 23 Q. IN YOUR OBSERVATION AND YOUR EXPERTISE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN
17:18 24 TENDERED TODAY, WAS KATRINA THE MOTHER OF ALL STORMS TO HIT
17:18 25 ST. BERNARD AND ORLEANS PARISH IN THE LAST 100 YEARS?
17:20 1 OCEANOGRAPHER HAVE RECOGNIZED THE FUNNEL AND ITS PROBABLE CAUSE
17:20 2 OF DESTRUCTION OF LIFE AND PROPERTY UNDER HURRICANE SURGE
17:20 3 CONDITIONS AND THEREAFTER? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
17:20 4 A. I DO.
17:20 5 Q. THE FUNNEL, AS REACH 1 AND REACH 2 GREW WIDER AND DEEPER
17:20 6 WITH DREDGING AND EROSION, WAS EVEN MORE DANGEROUS, AND ANY
17:20 7 MINIMALLY COMPETENT OCEANOGRAPHER WITH THE CORPS SHOULD HAVE
17:20 8 KNOWN THAT BY NO LATER THAN THE LATE '80S, AND THE CORPS SHOULD
17:20 9 HAVE ADVISED CONGRESS TO TAKE REMEDIAL ACTION? DO YOU BELIEVE
17:20 10 THAT TO BE TRUE?
17:20 11 A. ABSOLUTELY.
17:20 12 Q. FAILURE TO MITIGATE BOTH THE REACH 1 AND REACH 2 AS
17:20 13 DESIGNED BY, AT THE LATEST, 1988 WAS A SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF THE
17:20 14 FLOODING PLAINTIFFS SUSTAINED DURING KATRINA, THE PLAINTIFFS IN
17:20 15 THIS CASE; IS THAT TRUE?
17:20 16 A. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN. I COULDN'T QUITE --
17:21 17 Q. FAILURE TO MITIGATE BOTH THE MRGO REACH 1 AND REACH 2 AS
17:21 18 DESIGNED BY, AT THE LATEST, BY 1988 WAS A SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF
17:21 19 THE FLOODING THE PLAINTIFFS SUSTAINED IN KATRINA?
17:21 20 A. OKAY. I'M GOING TO INTERPRET THAT AS MEANING AS IT WAS IN
17:21 21 1980S, NOT AS DESIGNED.
17:21 22 Q. NO. I'M TIRED. I APOLOGIZE. YOU'RE RIGHT. AS IT HAD
17:21 23 MORPHED --
17:21 24 A. OKAY. YES, YES.
17:21 25 Q. -- SINCE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION.
17:21 1 A. RIGHT. BECAUSE THEN THE WAVE EFFECTS BEGAN TO COME IN.
17:21 2 Q. THE FAILURE TO MITIGATE THE POSTDESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION
17:21 3 REACH 1 AND REACH 2 MORPHING DUE TO DREDGING AND EROSION WAS A
17:21 4 SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF THE PLAINTIFFS' FLOODING IN KATRINA; IS
17:21 5 THAT CORRECT?
17:21 6 A. NO QUESTION.
17:21 7 Q. KENT LATTIMORE'S HOME IN ST. BERNARD --
17:21 8 MR. ROY: LET'S GO TO PAGE 161 OF THE POWERPOINT.
17:22 9 BY MR. ROY:
17:22 10 Q. -- YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION IS THAT HIS HOUSE WOULD
17:22 11 SUFFER DURING HURRICANE KATRINA SUBSTANTIALLY LESS WITH A
17:22 12 NEUTRAL MRGO; IS THAT RIGHT?
17:22 13 THE COURT: THANK YOU FOR NOT ANSWERING.
17:22 14 YES, SIR, COUNSEL. I'M SORRY.
17:22 15 MR. LEVINE: I'M GOING TO OBJECT. THESE ARE
17:22 16 HYDROGRAPH RESULTS DERIVED FROM THE SOBEK REPORT THAT I DON'T
17:22 17 BELIEVE WERE INCLUDED IN DR. KEMP'S REPORT ANYWHERE.
17:22 18 THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT. I NOTE YOUR
17:22 19 OBJECTION. SINCE THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN INTRODUCED INTO
17:22 20 EVIDENCE, I AM GOING TO ALLOW HIM SIMPLY FROM AN ILLUSTRATIVE
17:22 21 STANDPOINT TO CONFIRM AN OPINION HE HAS REALLY ALREADY GIVEN.
17:22 22 THE OBJECTION IS NOTED. HE MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION.
17:22 23 BY MR. ROY:
17:22 24 Q. DR. KEMP, HOW MUCH FLOODING DID MR. LATTIMORE'S HOME
17:22 25 SUFFER DURING HURRICANE KATRINA?
17:22 1 A. THE GROUND ELEVATION HERE IS 4 FEET AND THE PEAK ELEVATION
17:23 2 OF THE SURGE AT THIS LOCATION IS 10 FEET, SO IT SUFFERED A
17:23 3 TOTAL OF 5 FEET.
17:23 4 Q. IN YOUR EXPERT OPINION, WITH A FULLY NEUTRAL MRGO PROJECT,
17:23 5 HOW MUCH FLOODING WOULD HAVE OCCURRED IN HIS HOME?
17:23 6 A. IT LOOKS LIKE ABOUT A FOOT.
17:23 7 Q. SAME WITH SCENARIO 3?
17:23 8 A. I'M SORRY. I HAVE TO READ THIS BECAUSE THIS IS
17:23 9 DR. VRIJLING'S. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT A FOOT IF THE
17:23 10 INDUSTRIAL CANAL BREACHES OCCURRED, WHICH I BELIEVE DR. BEA
17:23 11 SAYS THEY DO. IF THEY DIDN'T OCCUR, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO
17:23 12 FLOODING. SO ASSUMING THAT THE INDUSTRIAL CANAL BREACHES
17:23 13 OCCUR, IT'S ABOUT A FOOT.
17:23 14 Q. THE SAME WITH SCENARIO 3?
17:23 15 A. THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE THERE'S -- WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT
17:23 16 BREACHING, AND DR. BEA SAYS 2C AND 3 PRODUCED NO BREACHING.
17:24 17 Q. WHEN YOU SAY 1 FOOT, THAT'S 1 FOOT ON THE PROPERTY?
17:24 18 A. YEAH. I WAS LOOKING HERE AT THE --
17:24 19 THE COURT: THAT NEEDED TO BE CLARIFIED. NOT 1 FOOT
17:24 20 INTO THE HOME, BUT 1 FOOT ONTO THE PROPERTY?
17:24 21 THE WITNESS: THAT'S RIGHT. THIS WOULD BE MORE
17:24 22 STREET FLOODING.
17:24 23 BY MR. ROY:
17:24 24 Q. YOUR ANSWERS WOULD BE THE SAME IF I REPEATED THE SAME
17:24 25 QUESTIONS FOR LATTIMORE & ASSOCIATES' OFFICE IN ST. BERNARD; IS
17:25 1 DID THEIR PROPERTY SUFFER DURING HURRICANE KATRINA? THE GROUND
17:25 2 IS AT 1 1/2-FEET ELEVATION; RIGHT?
17:26 3 A. THAT'S RIGHT. BUT THE SURGE GOT UP TO CLOSE TO 11 FEET,
17:26 4 SO THEY SUFFERED 9 1/2 FEET OF FLOODING. BECAUSE THEY WERE
17:26 5 VERY CLOSE TO THE INDUSTRIAL CANAL BREACH, THEY WOULD STILL GET
17:26 6 ABOUT 5 FEET OF FLOODING.
17:26 7 Q. IN YOUR EXPERT OPINION, UNDER A FULLY NEUTRAL MRGO, HOW
17:26 8 MUCH FLOODING WOULD HAVE OCCURRED AT THEIR SITE?
17:26 9 A. I'M STILL ASSUMING THE INDUSTRIAL CANAL BREACH OCCURS. I
17:26 10 HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT DR. BEA SAID ABOUT IT, BUT THEY WOULD
17:26 11 STILL GET ABOUT 5 FEET OF FLOODING.
17:26 12 Q. IF NO INDUSTRIAL CANAL BREACH?
17:26 13 A. WELL, THEY WOULDN'T GET ANY FLOODING.
17:26 14 Q. NORMAN AND MONICA ROBINSON'S HOME IN NEW ORLEANS EAST --
17:26 15 LET'S GO TO POWERPOINT PAGE 159, WHICH IS DERIVED FROM PX-1771
17:26 16 AT PAGE 1 -- HOW MUCH FLOODING DID THEIR PROPERTY SUFFER DURING
17:26 17 HURRICANE KATRINA?
17:26 18 A. THIS ONE I HAVE A HARD TIME INTERPRETING BECAUSE I THINK
17:26 19 IT REALLY IS DEPTH, NOT ELEVATION.
17:27 20 Q. IS THAT ABOUT 13 FEET?
17:27 21 A. YEAH.
17:27 22 Q. IN YOUR EXPERT OPINION, UNDER FULLY MITIGATED MRGO
17:27 23 CIRCUMSTANCES, HOW MUCH FLOODING WOULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THEIR
17:27 24 HOME?
17:27 25 A. IN THIS CASE, FULLY MITIGATED, THAT MEANS?
17:30 1 CALCULATING -- IF, IF, IF -- AND, AGAIN, BIG "IF'S." THE COURT
17:30 2 HAS NO IDEA WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO. IF THE COURT WOULD SOMEHOW
17:30 3 FIND LIABILITY ALLOCATING DAMAGES -- AND I'M EXPECTING A LITTLE
17:30 4 BRIEFING ON THAT SHORTLY, AND I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS FOR
17:30 5 THE COURT OF APPEAL. THIS IS JUST AN ASIDE. HOW YOU ARE GOING
17:30 6 TO BRIEF THIS, WITH THE PAGE NUMBER REQUIREMENT IN THE COURT OF
17:30 7 APPEALS, IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING ELSE. I'M AFRAID YOU ARE
17:30 8 GOING TO HAVE TO GET AN EXTENSION.
17:31 9 MR. ROY: BY THE GRACE OF GOD, THOUGH, YOUR HONOR IS
17:31 10 NOT LIMITED TO SUCH A PAGE LIMIT.
17:31 11 THE COURT: NO, I'M NOT. I WANT YOU TO BE THINKING
17:31 12 ABOUT THAT. I'M THINKING ABOUT IT. SO IF IT'S TOO LONG, IT
17:31 13 WON'T BE TAILORED ENOUGH. LET'S ALL BE THINKING ABOUT THAT. I
17:31 14 THINK WE CAN DISTILL A LOT OF THE ISSUES, BUT I'LL GIVE YOU
17:31 15 SOME HINTS AT THE END OF THE TRIAL.
17:31 16 MR. ROY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE TENDER THE
17:31 17 WITNESS.
17:31 18 THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. ROY, FOR YOUR EXAMINATION.
17:31 19 SIR, I'M ASSUMING YOU ARE GOING TO DEFER UNTIL
17:31 20 TOMORROW?
17:31 21 MR. LEVINE: YES, SIR.
17:31 22 THE COURT: SIR, YOU MAY STEP DOWN, AND YOU WILL BE
17:31 23 UP TOMORROW.
17:31 24 MR. STEVENS: YOUR HONOR, IT'S KIND OF BECOME MY TASK
17:31 25 THESE DAYS TO SUMMARIZE THINGS AND MAKE LISTS. TO AVOID
1 CERTIFICATE
2 I, TONI DOYLE TUSA, CCR, FCRR, OFFICIAL COURT
3 REPORTER FOR THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, EASTERN DISTRICT
4 OF LOUISIANA, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A TRUE
5 AND CORRECT TRANSCRIPT, TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY AND
6 UNDERSTANDING, FROM THE RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE
7 ABOVE-ENTITLED AND NUMBERED MATTER.
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10 S/ TONI DOYLE TUSA
TONI DOYLE TUSA, CCR, FCRR
11 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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