What Is Arousal
What Is Arousal
A term that sensory integration therapists tend to use a lot is "arousal." What does it mean when we're talking about a child, and why is it important? Arousal is your level of alertness at any given moment. When you're lying in a hammock which is gently, slowly swaying back and forth in a warm, sweet breeze, and the birds are chirping, you can hear the sound of the surf in the background, and you're under the shade of a tree, you're very relaxed. Your arousal level is quite low, and you're about to drift off into sleep. Now imagine yourself sitting in the first car of a roller coaster, you're at the top of the highest curve, about to head almost directly vertically downward. Very high arousal there! Then there's everything in between. This is when we are engaged in an activity and still peripherally aware of what is going on around us so that we can respond to it when necessary. For instance, think of sitting in the park, chatting with a friend while watching your children play. You can easily flip your attention back and forth as required. {Archie and Veronica fans: Jughead: low arousal. Laissez - faire attitude towards life, motivated by food and not much else. Happy to be left alone, no particular interest in the opposite sex or in achievement. Moose: High arousal. Always taking everything the wrong way, spoiling for a fight. Too wound up to do well in class, but captain of the football team, where he gets to throw his weight around. Everyone walks around on eggshells when he's in the room, afraid to offend him and risk an out of control reaction. His girlfriend's main function is to keep him on an even keel.} Our arousal levels dictate how able we are to pay attention and respond appropriately to what is going on around us. For most of us, our senses and internal chemistry work together seamlessly to maintain correct levels of alertness and arousal. When someone familiar touches us, our nervous systems don't interpret it as a threat. When the phone rings, our hearts don't start to race. When the family cat jumps unexpectedly on our laps, we don't scream and shoot up from our chairs. And when we are sitting still, for example at a movie, we can stay alert enough to attend to what's happening on the screen. When we are at work, sitting in front of a computer all day in artificial light, we can {mostly} stay focused on the task at hand, be alert and present at meetings, and accomplish everything we are supposed to do. All these levels of alertness are important because they are necessary for survival. When danger is imminent, high arousal and hyper vigilance are what allow us to defend ourselves successfully against predators. Low arousal is what allows us to transition into sleep so that we can rest and repair our bodies. We unconsciously do little subtle things all the time, like stretching, chewing gum, and doodling, to adjust our arousal levels so that we stay in synch with what is happening around us. Some of what we do, like drinking coffee, is alerting, and some things are self soothing, like twirling hair. Some things can be either, like chewing gum, depending on the circumstances and how a particular nervous system takes it in and processes the sensory information it provides. Many of the children whom we see in occupational therapy for sensory issues tend to live at one extreme or another, functioning either too low or too high most of the time. Any attempts to increase arousal will cause them to shoot straight into high gear. They don't seem to have a lot of middle range available to them, which is what is required for most of the demands of modern urban life. When a child has arousal difficulties, there may be many reasons why. One is chemical. The body's ability to manufacture and utilize neurotransmitters, which transmit information and facilitate communication between brain cells, is compromised. These chemicals are responsible for regulating, among other things, our attention, learning, memory, alertness, mood, and motivation. Another reason that a child may have difficulty keeping his arousal levels up has to do with the body's ability maintain its upright stature against gravity. Many of the children I treat have low muscle tone. Their vestibular nerves, which talk to the extensor muscles, need a lot more stimulation before they will fire and activate the extensor system, so their extensor tone remains low unless they can move intensely, which they can't do when they're being expected to sit still. This means that they are struggling just to stay upright, which is very tiring. {These are the children who are completely frenetic the minute they get a chance to move, but as soon as they sit, they're lying all over their desks or
falling out of their chairs.} The vestibular nerve also talks directly to the part of the brain responsible for managing our state of alertness and arousal, so if it's not activated properly, it's not doing its job of regulating the arousal centers in the brain. If the child's senses are not taking in and interpreting things appropriately, he may be on high alert and stuck in a state of chronic fight or flight. Have you ever been in such a stressful situation, like a horrible medical procedure or receiving terrible, life altering news, that you just left your body for awhile? A child who is sensitive to noise, light, or chaos, and has a hard time sitting up, is going to spend a lot of his school day being tuned out as one way of coping with things that are hard for him to deal with. These are the children who fall through the cracks, because they're not acting out. They're quiet about the fact that they're not present and unable to learn. The paradoxical thing about ADHD is that since the children who have this disorder have a hard time keeping still, we think that their arousal levels are too high. The opposite is generally true; the child is coping with arousal levels that are chronically too low to allow him to sit without his nervous system deactivating. A child who is perpetually on the go is a child who is doing whatever necessary, trying to move, mostly -- to activate his nervous system and increase his arousal. That's why stimulating drugs have such a powerful effect on attentional issues. They increase arousal, and so they raise the brain's ability to attend. One problem that children with arousal issues often have is the type of attention that is available to them. They are either highly distractible and can't focus, or they become so overly focused on something that the entire world fades away and it's difficult to rouse them out of that state. Again, this is problematic for functioning in school. Something in the middle of those two extremes is what is required in a classroom. The child should be able to attend to the lesson, but is not so lost to everything else around him that he is able to shift focus easily. He needs to be able to concentrate on the task at hand while at the same time attend to what is going on around him. For instance if he is concentrating on his work and the teacher makes an announcement, he should be able to look up briefly, take it in, and go back to what he is doing without having lost his train of thought or spending a lot of time spinning his wheels before he is able to return to the task at hand. Helping the child learn to manage his body, and thus his arousal state, to live most of the time in that in-between range is one of the goals of occupational therapy. This is what we call the "just right state for learning." There is a wonderful program developed by occupational therapists called "How Does Your Engine Run?" that talks about this in great detail. The authors liken the body to a car engine. Where does yours tend to idle, low or high? If you think about the unconscious strategies you employ to help yourself during the day, you can get a sense of where you fall. People who mostly do things that are self soothing in nature tend to idle too high, while people who do things that are mostly alerting tend to idle too low. We all do a mix of these things, though, based on what we need at the moment. Sensory integration therapy assists the child in maintaining a better arousal state in a variety of ways. We can improve the child's neurochemistry by doing things in the clinic that will increase the manufacture of dopamine and seratonin, the "feel good" neurotransmitters. We can strengthen up his extensor muscles, integrate postural reflexes, and improve the child's balance, which will help him sit for longer periods. We help the body learn to filter out extraneous information that is distracting to the child, by changing the way the inner ear and vestibular nerve process information, or by desensitizing the skin. We help the child become a better breather, so his oxygen levels are improved and anxiety is diminished. We can teach strategies for managing low arousal that the child can employ discreetly when needed. We can educate parents and teachers to recognize when the child is faltering and give him an opportunity to rev up his engine before he tunes out or acts out. Building more movement and fresh air into the child's day will certainly help him maintain his arousal at appropriate levels. So will making sure that he gets enough sleep. Hydration is important, as is a diet low in processed food and rich in protein. Breathing well is critical. If your child tends to be a shallow breather, his sympathetic nervous system {which is responsible for regulating the fight or flight response} will be too responsive, and make his heart race and flood his body with adrenaline at inappropriate times. In another post I'll talk about some strategies I use to help children change their arousal levels during clinic time and how they can begin to discreetly manage their arousal during class time. Posted by Loren Shlaes at 8:38 AM
http://pediatricot.blogspot.com/2010/05/what-is-arousal.html
Many of the children I treat can't sit still simply because they need to move their bodies. In big cities like Manhattan, children don't have the opportunity to run around freely, and their overscheduled parents don't make the time to take them to the park. It often takes much convincing on my part that regular unstructured time spent out of doors, either at a park, beach, or playground, is an essential priority for children, and that constantly strapping children into strollers, car seats, high chairs, play pens, and anything else that prevents them from moving and exploring freely is impeding their neurological and cognitive development. I often go to schools for observations and leave with the feeling that the adults who are responsible for planning the children's days don't always schedule activities with a realistic view of what is possible and what is not. I recently observed a second grade classroom in which the children were required to sit quietly for 90 minutes and write without a break. After about 30 minutes had gone by, the teacher was expending a lot of energy trying to get her class to stay seated and focused. Ninety minutes for a group of seven year olds is a long, long time to sit still. Another time I observed a classroom of six year olds being given a highly structured, rather uninteresting craft activity to do. After about fifteen minutes, the teacher was working mighty hard to maintain decorum. The majority of the children had long since finished their task, and were more than ready to move on, but they were required to sit there for ten more minutes. The children got more and more restive and bored, and the teacher became sterner and sterner as she tried to force the children to sit. It would have been much less toxic to give them a second task or to give everyone a one minute structured movement break. Something else I frequently observe is that circle time tends to go on and on and on. After about five or ten minutes of sitting on the floor with nothing to do, the children are clearly restless and bored. The teacher is unable to do any teaching at that point. All of her energy is directed towards trying to trying to convince them to sit still, when they are obviously dying to get up and move their bodies. When children don't have good, solid strength in their trunks due to low muscle tone, sitting in a chair is a struggle. If a child is constantly rocking in his chair, wrapping his legs around the furniture, leaning his upper body against his desk, or falling out of his chair during class, he does not have the strength to support himself, and is trying to manufacture it by using the furniture. Children who have a clinical condition known as auditory defensiveness, which is oversensitivity to noise, have a hard time in school because they can't tolerate the noise levels. Their ears don't filter and dampen noise effectively, and the sound waves from the other children's high pitched voices build up in their eardrums and can be quite painful. A young child who moves around and around the periphery of a noisy classroom, can't settle down or demonstrate any goal oriented behaviors during unstructured play or work time, is having difficulty coping with the sound levels.
If the child's eyes are sensitive to light, he is probably quite uncomfortable, especially if he is in an interior classroom with fluorescent lighting. I see this quite often in New York: children in brightly lit classrooms painted a glaring, flat white, with no natural lighting or ventilation. After a few minutes, I'm feeling sweaty and dull headed, and dying to get out of there myself. Tactile defensiveness, a condition where the skin is overly sensitive, can make it very difficult for a child to sit still when his socks are bothering him, his underwear is bothering him, the tag in his shirt is bothering him, and other children are sitting too close to him. A child who is restless and reluctant to do table top tasks like writing, puzzles, coloring, or cutting may have weak eye muscles. He may have quite a bit of difficulty controlling them to do things like copy from the board or pulling in them in close enough to read or write. This is painful and uncomfortable and makes it extra challenging to attend to close work. If a child squirms in his chair, rubs his eyes, and is resistant to close work, he may have trouble seeing what he's doing. Children who have a hard time sitting are often poor, shallow breathers. Chronic shallow breathing causes anxiety by flooding the system with adrenaline and forcing the child to exist in a chronic low level fight or flight mode. Don't believe me? Try panting shallowly for a minute, and notice the beating of your heart and the restlessness in the rest of your body. The resulting agitation compels the body to get up and move, partly to survey the environment for predators, and partly to discharge the large amounts of nervous energy that the floods of adrenaline cause in the body. A child who constantly seeks movement, spinning his body while standing in line, twirling around every light post he passes, jumping on every bench and curb, very likely has an under responsive vestibular system. The vestibular nerve is responsible for our levels of alertness and uprightness based in part on information it receives as the child's body moves. When it isn't working right, the child is driven to move more frequently and intensely to make up for the lack of nerve's ability to respond. His arousal levels are too low, and he's doing whatever he can instinctively do in order to bring them to the level where he can focus and attend. If a child has a very hard time falling asleep, and doesn't sleep well, his ability to sit and focus is greatly diminished. If he is a seriously picky eater and subsists on junk food, he won't have the fuel necessary to help him keep centered and focused. He may be suffering from gut problems, like undetected food allergies or yeast. Posted by Loren Shlaes at 5:24 AM 4 comments:
reCREATEdonna said... Thank you for this informative post. My daughter's teacher keeps their kindergarten class in circle for far too long. She is convinced my daughter is ADHD...I completely disagree, as her behavior at home doesn't reflect it. After reading this I think she possibly has auditory issues. Her hands are quick to cover her ears and she constantly complians it is too loud in her class. Thu Mar 17, 11:49:00 AM MST
Anonymous said... Hi There, we have just been told that our son (3 years 10 months) does not stay still in class and is always running around. The teacher has also indicated that he is very itelligent and can do activities very easily. He is very active at home as my husband takes him out to the Park for an hour. At home as well
we cant get him to sit in one place and focus on sitting activity for more than 10 mins (like painting or colouring or drawing, etc). Please do give me some pointers on how I may help my son. Thank you Wed Jul 13, 01:31:00 AM MST
Anonymous said... Thanks for the info! I can probably narrow it down to tactile defensiveness or poor shallow breathing for my daughter. Both of those things fit my daughter. She said that she can't sit still cause she feels like things are crawling on her so probably sensitive skin. I knew there was a reason for it but couldn't pin point it. Very informative! Tue Aug 09, 10:33:00 AM MST
Anonymous said... My son is in 3rd grade and I was told today that it is very hard for him to sit still. I was told he is good for about 15 minutes and that's about it. This has been brought to our attention since kindergargen but I've witnessed him at home reading a book for a good 20 minutes. Fri Apr 13, 03:31:00 PM MST
5. The child is sitting with his back exposed and people are walking behind him, again setting off alarm bells. He should be sitting with his back to the wall, preferably in a corner. 6. The child is auditory defensive and his ears hurt. A child who can manage in a quiet, low stimulation atmosphere but can't control his behavior in a noisy environment is probably suffering mightily in all of the chaos. Or he may not understand the teacher's instructions if she is talking over many chattering voices. A good clue about auditory defensiveness: a child who runs around the perimeter of the classroom, acts out, and can't engage in any goal oriented behavior when the room is noisy. 7. The child is a poor breather. Shallow breathing sets up the body for fight or flight, and it's very hard to sit still when every cell in your body is urging you to get up and check for predators.
8.The child has undetected visual problems. It's exhausting and frustrating to try to attend to close work if you can't see what you're doing. His eyes may be so unstable that he is seeing double, or seeing floaters, or visual images are shimmering. Or the light in his classroom might be bothering him. In Manhattan many children are expected to sit all day long in inside classrooms with no natural light or outside ventilation. I get headaches just thinking about it. 9. The child's inner ear is not functioning well. The inner ear tells us how alert/upright or at ease we should be in response to movement. {Roller coaster: very alert and upright! Hammock: very drowsy and relaxed.} If the child's inner ear is not registering movement very well, it's not telling the body to sit up and attend. The child is driven to move in order to provide the intensity he needs to stay upright and aroused. 10. The child's nervous system has not matured along with his chronological age. This means that primitive movement patterns, which should be dormant, are instead active and present, dominating the way the child responds to his environment. Primitive reflex patterns lower the child's muscle tone automatically when he turns his head and body in certain positions. This interferes with, among many other things, his balance, equilibrium, and vision. Or things that would not even register to us, like a dog barking in the distance, can throw the child's system into a startle, making it hard for him to stay grounded. 11. The child's metabolic processes are not functioning well. Does the child have undetected food allergies, difficulty sleeping, leaky gut syndrome, candida, heartburn? Is the child constipated? Is he subsisting on a diet of refined carbs, sweets, and processed food, and so is inadequately nourished? Children need lots of high quality protein and complex carbs to fuel their bodies for learning and attention. 12. The child does not get enough sleep, or the sleep that he does get is not resting him properly. Can he transition well to bedtime? Does he get ten or eleven hours every night? Is there good ventilation in his bedroom? Are the lights off in his room?
13. The child may be too young or too immature to be in a classroom. In my clinical opinion, most three year old boys would be much better off waiting another year or two before starting school. They simply don't have the emotional or neurological maturity to be handle all of the rules and expectations of the classroom. 14. The expectations of the classroom are too much, and the child feels lost, inadequate, and confused. Four year olds should not be expected to learn to write. They simply don't have the internal stability, attention span, or visual discrimination required for such high level work yet. Let them wait until they are developmentally ready. One of the very best schools in Manhattan, the Rudolph Steiner School, does not start the children writing until they are seven. Their children have beautiful handwriting and are exceptional scholars. 15. The child is hungry, thirsty, tired, or has to go to the bathroom. 16. The child is over scheduled. Children need lots of down time to recharge their batteries and connect with their creativity. A child who has two or three activities every day after school and on the weekend is expected to be "on" way too much. Cut back to just an activity or two a week and use the time instead to take him outside to play. 17. The child is spending too much time in front of screens. This is especially true if the child can't transition well to sleep after spending time on a computer. Is the child watching or playing games with excessively violent content? Strictly limit time spent in front of televisions and computers and use the time instead for creative pursuits {crafts, painting, writing stories, playing a musical instrument, dancing, etc.}. Turn off the computer a minimum of two hours before bedtime, or, better yet, allow the child just an hour or two on the weekend. It's just not realistic to allow a child to spend all day Saturday and Sunday watching TV, playing video games, and eating frozen waffles, and then expect him to be alert, relaxed, grounded, able to sit still for hours at a time, and ready to learn on Monday. Don't you feel more clearheaded and able to manage at work after you've taken a brisk walk? 18. His parents are going through a hard time, or don't get along. Strife at home will upset any child's equilibrium. If parents are stressed out, rarely home, argue a lot, or are going through their own issues, it will show up in the child's behavior. 19. The child's parents don't teach him to respond to adult redirection, so he thinks that obeying grownups is optional.
20. The adults who care for the child spend inordinate amounts of time on their electronic devices during their time together, or otherwise ignore him. 21. The child is expected to sit still for too long. I have so very often observed classrooms where very young children were expected to sit for long periods without getting up, being given
a drink of water, or anything to eat. And if the child has endured a long bus ride to school, he is at a disadvantage before he even walks into the building. 22. The child is bored. Many reasons why this could be -- the grownups don't have a realistic idea about the child's attention span, the activity is too difficult or too easy, or the child expects everything to be like television or the computer: loud, lots of chatter and images quickly passing by, lots of novelty. 23. The child has sustained structural damage due to a fall or other accident, poor handling, or birth trauma which affects cranial nerve function and would benefit from manual therapy. 24. The child may have issues with body/brain chemistry. Posted by Loren Shlaes at 5:41 AM 5 comments:
Anonymous said... Interesting post, this was really useful. thanks! Thu Jan 05, 06:16:00 AM MST
Anonymous said... Fantastic website you got here, best content yet! Sat Jan 14, 04:02:00 AM MST
matthew Occupational Therapist said... Always really interesting to read different OT blogs from around the world - keep up the great work! Would love any feedback on our OT blog as well: http://www.inclusion.me.uk/blog/ Thanks Matthew Mon Jan 16, 02:55:00 PM MST
therapydoc said... This is just wonderful. I found you looking for DaMomma who links to both of us. Now I have to figure out where she went. I'm linking to you right now. Mon Jan 16, 05:39:00 PM MST
Barbara @ TherExtras said... Very good list! I only disagree with no. 23 - the only one where you outright recommend a specific therapy. PS The links do not work (at least not on my computer). Mon Jan 16, 07:29:00 PM MST
Important!!!!!
Low Tone
As a therapist, I sometimes forget that civilians don't understand all of the professional jargon that my colleagues and I use to communicate with each other. I try, when I write an evaluation of a child, to explain what each thing I assess means, and most important, how it affects the way the child functions. But when I hand over a 12 page report to a parent, I have to remember that not everything is sinking in all at once, and that the information I'm conveying has to be absorbed, bit by bit, as the parent can integrate it. "Low tone" is something we occupational therapists talk about quite often. But parents complain to me that they have no idea what that means. Sometimes it's quite obvious -- the mother of one of the children that I treat just had a baby, and she called me to tell me that the baby is so weak and floppy that it can't tighten its fist around an index finger placed in its palm. Other times it's not nearly as apparent, and a child can appear to be quite athletic and still be plagued by all kinds of problems associated with low tone. Tone is the amount of electricity that courses through the muscles and allows them to do the jobs of extending the body against gravity, contract themselves around joints for balance and stability, and work for long periods of time without undue fatigue. An example of someone with plenty of tone is a professional athlete or dancer. I'll never forget the time I met my favorite baseball player, Dennis Eckersley. He practically crackled, he had so much juice and electricity flowing through his body! As far as I know, there is no one definitive reason for low tone. Some people believe that it is a nutritional issue, and that for some reason the body is not delivering, {perhaps because of dietary issues or metabolic difficulties} or the muscles are not utilizing, the raw materials needed for maintenance and sustained use. The child's muscles don't develop well, and so they tire easily. An under responsive vestibular system can be a possible reason for low tone. The vestibular nerve is responsible for many things. It tells us, along with our eyes and muscles, where we are in space. It also responds to how much and what kind of movement we get, and communicates directly with the muscles that extend us against gravity and allow us to be upright. It also talks to the part of the brain that is responsible for alertness, attention, and arousal. If the vestibular nerve is not picking up and processing this information correctly, the result will be insufficient muscle tone and chronic low arousal.
Another issue that interferes with the child's ability to function is delays in the maturation of spinal reflexes. When a child is born, its nervous system is immature, unlike a horse's -- a pony can get up and walk shortly after birth. Humans start out instead with nervous systems that respond by increasing or decreasing muscle tone in response to certain stimulation, and then go on to refine themselves through movement and play until voluntary control is established. Then the reflexes disappear. If they don't disappear and are dominating the nervous system, the child will have difficulty working his body against gravity. If your child tires easily, complains that he doesn't have any energy, can't sit up while he's writing, is a chronic slumper, or has a hard time sitting still or sitting on the floor, chances are his tone is low, even if he appears to be athletic. I've seen plenty of boys who could pitch a ball like Roger Clemens -- but their core strength was so weak that they couldn't do a single sit up or lift their chests and thighs up off the floor when lying on their bellies. Children with low muscle tone have an especially difficult time of it in school, because their bodies don't have the effortless uprightness against gravity that allows them to sit still. If they are struggling to stay upright, they're using the mental and physical energy to sit that they should be applying towards attending to the lesson. I once went to school to observe a little boy who acted out a lot, especially during circle time, when all the children had to sit cross legged on the floor. The day I saw him, during circle time, he sat with his legs straight in front of him and his hands behind his back on the floor, using his arms to brace himself. He simply was not able to sit in the traditional "criss cross applesauce" position, and needed the additional support from his arms, and wide base from his extended legs, just to stay upright. I saw immediately that he was so uncomfortable sitting this way, and that it was so much effort, that he couldn't sit on the floor and attend to what was going on at the same time. He didn't have enough sophistication in his language to tell anyone what the problem was. His only recourse was to refuse to stay there for very long, and this was viewed as disruptive behavior. I suggested to his teacher that he either be allowed to sit in a chair or that he be assigned a place against the wall so that he could sit with his back supported. He was much happier after that, and he was much more able to attend. Low tone affects many aspects of function, which I will address in future posts. Meanwhile, if your child has low tone, no amount of yelling at him to sit up straight will help. Try incorporating activities to strengthen the trunk, like sitting on a therapy ball while doing homework or watching TV, doing sit ups and push ups, wheelbarrow walking, wrestling matches, and playing with whistles, bubbles, and blow toys to your child's daily routine. Spinning is good for vestibular activation, if your child likes to spin. Or take your child outside and play tag or ball, or organize a game of statues or red rover with other children in the neighborhood.
silvio soprani said... Loren, is the electricity in the muscles you are referring to related in any way to that clip that the nurse puts on one's forefinger (while taking blood pressure) to measure one's "oxygen level" ? I don't understand how a clip can measure oxygen, but I am learning so many new things from your blog, I thought I'd ask. Mon Apr 19, 12:56:00 PM MST
Anonymous said... My daughter was diagnosed with hypotonia/low tone. She didn't begin walking until about 18-19 months old. She is 27 months old now and she has difficulty with climbing stairs, especially down. She also does
not jump at all yet. We still find it hard to break her of sitting in the W position as well. Any suggestions? She was seeing a therapist until about October of last year when my insurance decided it was no longer necessary. What can we do at home to help her? Thanks so much!! Tue Apr 20, 09:36:00 AM MST
Scarehaircare said... a friend of mine sent me an email about your blog. You have great information, here! I am looking forward to learning from you. My daughter recevies OT at school and then we turn to a private practice over the summer. Wed Apr 21, 05:53:00 AM MST
Anonymous said... Thank you for the clear presentation of information. If I may ask, are there different degrees of low tone? How can you tell the difference? Thank you Wed Jul 21, 04:52:00 PM MST
Anonymous said... My Son was referred to OT + PT aged 3 / 4 after I highlighted delays with his motor skills. Prior to this his nursery teacher had described him as per the child above. He received OT + PT for approx. 1 year and it was decided that he has no medical problem and that he had largely caught up. Hence, discharged. During this time the PT mentioned that he had low core tone. My Son is now nearly 8 and still won't entertain riding his bike, his scooter or anything else with less than 3 wheels.:( HE struggles to straddle railings, fences, play equipment and descend the other side. I'm torn as to what to do: go mt best to teach him these things with love + patience or march back to the Doctor's office? Sat Aug 07, 01:13:00 AM MST