Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Should league runners-up finishes be included in a player's honours section?

Hey all - do people have a strong opinion on whether to include or not include domestic league runners-up positions in players' honours sections? I thought there was a consensus to NOT include runners-up for a league but could be wrong as I do not see much in the archives here. This has come up in a disagreement I have had with @Glasgowedior: who believes runners-up positions in the Colombian league and Brazilian state league should be included in Alfredo Morelos honours. I disagree and don't think they should be included. For instance, I don't believe that the players in the Arsenal squad of 2023-24 should have league runners-up included in their honours section or that VfB Stuttgart players should have the same in the Bundesliga. Any thoughts? Thinks. Rupert1904 (talk) 11:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, whatever the consensus is, the work to "correct" the articles is long past being feasible. I don't believe runners-up in any league is honours-worthy. Seasider53 (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree. If we include runners-up, why not third? Where does it end? Really, only the winner matters if we are talking about honors. Chris1834 Talk 13:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

You actually get a medal for being a runner up in a tournament though whilst 3rd and beyond you do not receive a medal. Glasgowedior (talk) 14:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

We're talking about leagues. Seasider53 (talk) 14:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Did the team achieve promotion? If not then I would say second palce is not an honour. However, we follow the sources, and Soccerway lists Alfredo Morelos's runners-up "achievements" in his honours list. So whilst I personally wouldn't include it, it is hard to justify removing properly sourced additions to an honours list. EchetusXe 19:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Do we trust Soccerway for honours though? I remember there was a consensus to not use soccerway for honours whenever possible but that could have changed. Rupert1904 (talk) 07:15, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

You can use Soccerway, but with a pinch of salt. As for league runner-ups? If it's a promotion runner-up I've heard of medals being given, however if it's not promotion I can't see why a medal would be given. At the end of the day, is there real evidence for any honour given, if not, don't put down data you simply can not verify. Govvy (talk) 08:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed on not including runners-up finishes in league. I think it's a bit silly and totally different to finishing second in a tournament/cup and playing in the final. I have definitely never heard of the Premier League giving out medals to second place teams. Rupert1904 (talk) 14:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

The South American leagues are different to other leagues where they play in a league format first then the top 8 go into a knockout tournament just like a cup with a winner and runner up though comparing it to the premier league is silly which is why they are honours please research the leagues! Glasgowedior (talk) 22:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Many leagues in Europe have championship and relegation play-offs at the end of the season; Belgium, Denmark, and Greece to name a few. This doesn't mean it's an honour to finish in 2nd or 3rd or 6th or 7th in the league. Just as getting first in a relegation group isn't an honour. Rupert1904 (talk) 07:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Winning a promotion play off is seen as an honour though lol Glasgowedior (talk) 13:21, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Nobody has mentioned playoff winners. Please keep up. Seasider53 (talk) 14:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Winning a play-off final is an honour and is noteworthy. Losing a play-off promotion final is not an honour and isn't included in an honours section, just as coming second or third in a league should not be included. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. Coming second best, third best, or fourth best in a league is not winning something. Rupert1904 (talk) 12:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The line has already been drawn though winners and runners up no one has mentioned third or fourth apart from you lol Glasgowedior (talk) 16:24, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

And seems to me based on the responses here, most people agree the line is drawn after champions of a domestic league and runners-up should not be included. Rupert1904 (talk) 17:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

But coming second in a league is a better performance than winning a promotion playoff in that same league. Spike 'em (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

How have you came to that conclusion when you’ve now posted this in two different places the first no one agreed with you and on this one it’s mixed? At the end of the day there is no rule against it wether you like it or not it is not enough grounds to remove it tbh the conclusion is it’s fine if it’s added and it’s fine if it’s not. It’s also funny the lengths you have went to with this when it literally has no bearing on anything is the information there false? No Is it effecting anything? No It’s something for people to read and learn about a player don’t see what the big deal is and why it is so important you remove it you will probably never look at the player again! Glasgowedior (talk) 18:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

My last bit of evidence towards why it should stay if you look at any wiki page for any tournament it lists at the top winners - XXX runner up - XXX also when you look at the list of winners the table where it shows how many times each club has won something it always shows the winners and runners up in the table when a team has more runner up medals than a team with the same wins they are always listed higher. Also every clubs wiki page has how many times they won a tournament and how many times they finished runner up Glasgowedior (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian Leagues give out gold, silver and bronze medals to up to 40 players and club officials. Ceriy (talk) 18:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I’m sure a lot of leagues give out silver medals to league runners up as well Glasgowedior (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Norway does too. The honour in question would be then "silver medal", not "2nd place" or "runner-up". Geschichte (talk) 20:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Citations for career statistics

To me having a citation for a players career statistics next to as of match played for their whole career is enough but @Rupert1904 seems to think you need one for every single year of a players career the person I am referring to is Jason Cummings who now has 15 extra citations and nearly 900 characters extra on his page which I believe is overkill especially for a player who plays in the Indian Super League do you guys have an opinion on this? Glasgowedior (talk) 14:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

References for each season is standard. I don't see how it is relevant that he plays in the Indian Super League, particularly when he has previously played in the Scottish Premiership, Scottish Championship, EFL Championship, League One and the A-League? Are you suggesting we remove references when a player moves to the ISL? EchetusXe 19:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

References for each season is preferred. GiantSnowman 13:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks tbh it’s something I’ve rarely ever seen usually I just see the reference at the top of their career stats but if it’s common practice then fair enough. Glasgowedior (talk) 18:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Lamine Fanne

Any idea if Fanne is an AIK player who is joining Luton in January, or a Luton player who is back on loan at AIK? Soccerway says he is on loan, the other sources not quite clear... GiantSnowman 17:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The Stockholm newspaper Aftonbladet wrote: "Fanne, som har gjort tolv allsvenska matcher för AIK i år, ansluter till Championship-laget Luton den 1 januari". Which means: "Fanne, who has done twelve Allsvenskan matches for AIK this year, joins the Championship team Luton on 1 January". Geschichte (talk) 20:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

BBC say "Luton Town have signed Lamine Fanne from AIK on a deal to begin in early 2025, with the midfielder due to return to the Swedish side until the end of the year". Luton have similarly mixed phrasing: "After passing a medical, putting pen to paper and meeting his new team-mates... Fanne will make an immediate return to Sweden where he will finish the season which ends in November. Fanne... will come to Kenilworth Road permanently in January". It is slightly confusing in that both sources have worded it in ways that could be interpreted in different ways, though neither of the sources specifically mention the word loan. In both sources, I think "return" is meant in that he is literally physically returning to Sweden, rather than how it is usually used as a football transfer phrase. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Kesha, I had the same confusion! GiantSnowman 19:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Children's football

This new article feels problematic to me. The article gives WP:UNDUE weight to his "accomplishments" as a child. U-12, U-13 etc. In my view, the barrier for making notable accomplishments in children's sports is unbelieveably high, and instead Wikipedia should shield young children from outside attention by placing less weight on children's sports. Hope this made sense. Geschichte (talk) 20:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, less weight is better than bloating it with under-16 content, I presume that's why Kai Rooney is currently a redirect into a relevant section of Wayne Rooney. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Kai Rooney's still only 14 though, so he is a child and he also has no senior career to write about. The article in question, though, is about someone who is an adult and has six full international caps. I can understand not wanting to bloat the article with excessive info about non-notable child-level competitions, but I have to confess I don't really understand the "child protection" argument, given that the subject of the article is not a child...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Defensor Sporting

Hi, does anyone know if Defensor Sporting is shortened and displayed as Defensor in the infobox? Social media accounts of both the club and the league use their full name. It is written as Defensor Sporting in the 2024 Uruguayan Primera División season article and during previous seasons as well.

As someone who regularly edit articles in Uruguayan football, I always used Defensor Sporting. However, an IP insist it should be shortened to Defensor in the page of Damián Suárez. Would love to see your inputs in this cuz few years ago probably this same user or someone else with the same style of edit summary insisted it should be displayed as Defensor in the page of Sebastián Abreu as well. This just made me confused. So if I am wrong, I could make changes to other pages I edit related to the club. Thanks in advance! Kokoeist (talk) 00:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi! The complete name of the club is Defensor Sporting, but many people in football call them as "Defensor". I am from Argentina and I know about uruguayan football. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 02:37, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thing is, we're writing for the intelligent general reader of English, not for the subject-matter expert. The reader tends to use the infobox for a quick lookup of the player's career without having to read the rest of the article, and we shouldn't be making them hover, click, or otherwise interact with the screen when we could just let them see which of the nine South American clubs listed at the disambiguation page (and doubtless dozens more without English Wikipedia articles) is meant.

As to current practice, of my sample of 40 Defensor Sporting players (those listed from G to J in Category:Defensor Sporting players) five don't have clubs listed in an infobox. Of the remaining 32, two show Defensor, one shows Defensor SC, and the rest show Defensor Sporting. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I’ve personally always heard them referred to as Defensor but I agree, we’re writing for English speakers here who don’t necessarily have much info on the topic so I’d say we go with the club’s full name on this one. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 21:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Five-team league table template

(courtesy ping to @Greg) I just got a question on my talk here about a five-team view of a league table with a team highlighted and it's markup I'm unfamiliar with. Does anyone know how you would get this view from data at 2024–25 South African Premiership? Happy editing, Perfect4th (talk) 21:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Soccerking.greg127 and Perfect4th: I added the onlyinclude tags to the table on the 2024–25 season page so that when transcluded only the table section is shown, and then I added show_limit of 5 to show only five teams. After these changes the wikicode of {{:2024–25 South African Premiership|showteam=KZC}} will display the following:

Pos	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification or relegation
1	Mamelodi Sundowns	2	2	0	0	6	1	+5	6	Qualification for 2025–26 CAF Champions League
2	Orlando Pirates	2	2	0	0	5	1	+4	6
3	Kaizer Chiefs	2	2	0	0	5	2	+3	6	Qualification for 2025–26 CAF Confederation Cup
4	Golden Arrows	3	2	0	1	4	1	+3	6
5	Polokwane City	3	2	0	1	4	4	0	6

Updated to match(es) played on 25 September 2024. Source: Premier Soccer League

Does this match what you wanted? --SuperJew (talk) 22:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, so it's the magical onlyinclude! Can't speak for Greg but it looks good to me. Thanks! Happy editing, Perfect4th (talk) 00:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Wow thanks very much to the both of you. GREG (talk) 14:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Navboxes for national champions

By analogy with Template:UEFA Champions League winners and similar, do you think we can have navigation boxes for national champions? Two examples are below.

Like the Champions League template, those would only be added to the articles on the teams concerned. They would also serve as compact and minimalistic lists of all the champions of the country, particularly useful in cases like Gibraltar or Afghanistan where there isn't a centralized list but different pages show the winners of different leagues for the period of their existence.

An issue I'm foreseeing is that this could usher in the creation of similar templates for various less important tournaments, such as cup competitions, second-division leagues, state leagues, youth leagues, etc. --Theurgist (talk) 21:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Many of the leagues you are wanting this for: Premier League, Moldovan National Division, whoever, already have centralized lists of winner, which are probably only a couple of linked articles away from the main articles of the teams. Perhaps this is overkill. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Is the Champions League template not overkill then? --Theurgist (talk) 20:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

User:Martimc123

Has returned (nay, he never left). Operates almost solely on top-notch Portuguese players/managers (or Portugal-based, past or present), adding several over-the-top info (in my humble opinion) that needlessly enlarges articles. Much more serious, continues to add copyrighted images to pages, for example reinstating the pics at Pedro Neto and Nuno Mendes immediately after they were removed (through this IP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:8A0:683C:4F00:2431:37FB:2383:CC6D; "forbidden" pic at João Palhinha has also been reinstated). At Mendes, also this (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nuno_Mendes_(footballer,_born_2002)&diff=prev&oldid=1247539920), they added info i reverted because i thought it was WP:OVERDETAIL. Then i thought, "OK, maybe he's onto something and i now reinstate the bit" (youngest player to appear in final/win title for Sporting CP); but then, i go read the La Vanguardia article that they inserted and, lo and behold, the player is not mentioned ONCE in there! Just found another IP, this one used over two months (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/82.154.212.152).

And i suppose many more socks exist, back in the day i was almost sure that User:Pinzunski was one of them (exact same M.O.) but the check did not yield any proof and i (or WP because of me) was threatened with legal action; they were blocked nonetheless, because of the threats and not because of the puppetry. So, that was the end for me regarding this type of report, others are much more equipped than me in that department.

But Mr. Martim is still relentless in his actions, that much is a given! Attentively, happy work everyone. RevampedEditor (talk) 14:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

subsection linking

As can be seen here example, there are lots of footballpages that have multiple subsections with the same name. Is there a way to link to a specific subsection. (I'm aware this Q. ought to be asked at the helpdesk (or somewhere else). I did and got no good answer. + It seems to be specific footbal articles problem.) Dutchy45 (talk) 00:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding a number after the repeated subsection will link to the correct subsection. For example, [[2023–24 UEFA Women's Champions League qualifying rounds#Bracket 2]] links to the Tournament 2 bracket. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 01:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, it's documented at Help:Section#Section linking: An underscore and number are appended to duplicate section names. E.g. for three sections named "Example", the names (for section linking) will be "Example", "Example_2" and "Example_3". (I had to find this myself last week as someone had reintroduced duplicate section headings on an article I had amended to make them unique). Spike 'em (talk) 09:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Worth noting that MOS:HEAD explicitly states that section headings within an article should be unique -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:17, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

A MOS is nice to have, but how would you suggest to actually do it in an article such as the one linked above? --SuperJew (talk) 09:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Rogue editor?

Please review the User contributions for 2804:14C:DA98:8B51:773C:DF23:436B:490A, who edited about 20 foodball club articles, usually changing uniform colors. Many of these have already been reverted. Very likely they should all be reverted, but this is not an area I know much about, so I leave this task to others. The oldest such edit for review is Revision of 12:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC) of Zira FK. If you have the expertise to say that these edits are OK, please comment here, so other editors (and I) will know the job is done. —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Mohamed Kamara#Requested move 20 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mohamed Kamara#Requested move 20 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Facebook as a source?

Should/can Facebook be used as a source for appearances. For example, the stats of Paulo da Silva as seen in his infobox for Club 12 de Junio in 2023, and accordingly at List of men's footballers with 1,000 or more official appearances. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

For appearances, I wouldn't really say so. There are sometimes reasons for other things. For example, for a player signing announcement. Sometimes small clubs don't have a website, and they might post an announcement there. I've used it in situations like that where I couldn't find something else. RedPatch (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

(ec) It's the club's official Facebook page so (IMO) it's no different to using the official club website as a source -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Facebook may sometimes be a reliable source. "The official page of a subject may be used as a self-published, primary source, but only if it can be authenticated as belonging to the subject." - see WP:FACEBOOK. Paul W (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Ashton United F.C.

Ummmm… the squad section? REDMAN 2019 (talk) 21:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)