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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Alan Kurdi. I just closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Kurdi per WP:SNOW, and this one is just as clear a case: there is an overwhelming number of votes for "merge", with good arguments presented. An argument for actual deletion was not maintained by a consensus of editors: that it is OR (nominator's position) is rejected. Now, Robofish's delete vote, that this is a POV fork, has merit to it, but since the rather unwise (in my opinion) creation of this article by Burst of unj more material may have been added that's not in the Alan Kurdi article, so I'll close this as a merge and leave it up to the discretion of wiser editors than this one to perform it as they see fit. Drmies (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Photographs of Alan Kurdi[edit]

Photographs of Alan Kurdi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Appears to be WP:OR. reddogsix (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not so. In addition it has inline quotes galore. Keep. --Burst of unj (talk) 00:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep after the article has been renamed as recently requested. The other article could be merged to this one, since the photos - or ethnocentric or even racist perceptions of the photos possibly - are what, unfortunately, brings this death out of the shadows of the thousands of other refugee deaths in that crisis. --Burst of unj (talk) 03:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)— Burst of unj (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment : I have created this new article - a topic that relates to another topic where I was a siginificant contributor. In addition I have edited about five other topics during my one-day membership. --Burst of unj (talk) 04:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC) — Burst of unj (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. -- 1Wiki8Q5G7FviTHBac3dx8HhdNYwDVstR (talk) 07:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of News media-related deletion discussions. -- 1Wiki8Q5G7FviTHBac3dx8HhdNYwDVstR (talk) 07:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Alan Kurdi, more appropriate article including context beyond photos. WWGB (talk) 06:30, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge I do not get the impression that the photographies are the main topic of the sources. An important topic that merits a section perhaps, but a separate article I don't think. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The other article is mostly about the photos and the reaction to the photos. Yet one has to plow thru subjects such as ISIL before actually getting to the most notable part of the chain of events. On the other hand, in the "Photographs- article" there is no chance of hijacking the topic, by starting to mention everything which did or possibly affected Kurdi's life: Simply the article begins with the subject of the photos and the reaction to the photos. Note that now the discussed article has been renamed Photographs of Alan Kurdi. Burst of unj (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with the main article. No need to have two pages and the other page has more context and generally doe it better. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:00, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge asap. 37.52.5.52 (talk) 10:13, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but merge. The article on the photographs and their reception in the world (under some appropriate title) should be kept and articles on the victim (Alan Kurdi) and the photographer (Nilüfer Demir) should be merged into, and the pages should redirect to, the article on the photographs. Both the victim and the photographer are notable only for the reaction to the photographs.  --Lambiam 10:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Quote from a different deletion discussion on this wikipedia: "... and redirect to Photographs of Alan Kurdi. Apparently this boy was not notable; his photographs are. --Neo-Jay (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)" --Burst of unj (talk) 15:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Quote from a deletion discussion for the English Alan Kurdi article: "Edit: keep both--Moplayer 15:33, 6 September 2015 (UTC)"--Burst of unj (talk) 17:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge pertinent bits of both into Nilüfer Demir. She made this, and this sort of publicity all but assures later things she does will make news. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - She shot photos on the beach (during and/or after the boy might have been layed at different places on the beach), and then the press agency did their thing, and then the Twitterati and other social media users did their thing, and then politicans and weather vanes followed the winds of changes. "... assures later things she does", you said. Maybe we can get back to that, uhm, later. Burst of unj (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have forgotten about this later. Just remember to remember I called it when she lands her next job. She may not have fanned the flames, but starting a fire this size definitely gets a foot in the door. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Alan Kurdi (the article that is there, regardless of which name is finally chosen). This is a clear WP:POVFORK as this article was created by the same person who nominated the other article for deletion -- and, might I add -- in bad faith as there is no indication in the other deletion discussion that a) this article exists and b) it was created by that same editor. I only found this by following the rather confusing trail of discussions around naming article(s) about Alan Kurdi. freshacconci talk to me 01:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You have not been paying attention to the relevant talk page [1]. I have created an article about a different topic, that in some ways overlaps the topic you feel should be the main topic. I have shown (thru translations) some of the significant support for the idea that only the Photographs of Alan Kurdi is a notable title/subject. I claim that this article is not a POVFORK of another article, and I also claim that I have not created it as such. Please note that I did coatrack some text about the photos in the Alan Kurdi article before I started the "Photographs- article": The reason being that the Alan Kurdi article was at the time the least inappropriate place to put the text. (If the "Photographs- article" already had existed, I would not have bothered improving the Alan Kurdi article, and I would have placed the photo related details in the right place from the start. And I probably would not have to be hearing about Newspeak POVFORK at this point in time.) --Burst of unj (talk) 06:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Alan Kurdi. Unnecessary content fork. -Zanhe (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Alan Kurdi. Otherwise it simply makes no sense. --Moplayer (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - From the deletion discussion, Alan Kurdi: Delete the title, "redirect to Photographs of Alan Kurdi. Apparently this boy was not notable; his photographs are. --Neo-Jay (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2015" --Burst of unj (talk) 01:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The following opinion might be interpreted as saying that neither the "Photograph of-" or "Alan Kurdi" should be kept: "Delete BLP1E - add content in European migrant crisis. -- Callinus (talk) 11:22, 9 September 2015" - from the the other deletion discussion (in English). Burst of unj (talk) 12:36, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't insert comments from other AFDs into this one - it's confusing and unhelpful. Discussions should be kept to their own pages. Robofish (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - clear WP:POVFORK of Alan Kurdi. That article is the longer-established and more neutral one and (assuming it survives its current AFD, started by the creator of this article) it should stay. There's no need for a merge; all the important content from this article is in that one already. Robofish (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article name (or names) we finally decide on should be the most appropriate ones. If the Photographs of Alan Kurdi were what caused the reaction - and not that one of a thousand children and adults (and refugees) died, then maybe one article should be called "Photographs of-". I am not aware of the guideline that says that a seven-day-old name gets chosen over a six-day-old article name every time. Burst of unj (talk) 22:18, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure who "we" is. The closing administrator will decide which argument has consensus. The arguments are leaning towards deleting this article and keeping Alan Kurdi (or titled as Death of Alan Kurdi). Your constant hammering of the same tired points is not helping the discussion. freshacconci talk to me 22:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"The closing administrator will decide which argument has consensus." Is that a new way to describe or define consensus? You pretend to know which way "The arguments are leaning towards". I guess we don't need a closing administrator, because we already have your take - on the discussion! Burst of unj (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with Alan Kurdi. Two articles are not needed and the story is really about Alan Kurdi, the boy who died. The photographs of him are significant because they showed his dead body to the world, not significant in and of themselves.-Josephus37 (talk) 13:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There have been thousands of photos that have "showed (...) dead body to the world", of refugees who are not notable enough on their own for a wikipedia article. In this case there were notable Reactions to the Photographs of Alan Kurdi. Notability to support a sepearate article about the boy, or about the death of the boy, has not been demonstrated. Burst of unj (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both - The (subject of) the Photographs- article is no less notable than the subject of the Death of Alan Kurdi, or the subject of the person himself. (And if the article about the photographer were to be deleted, can that article reasonable be redirected to the article about the boy (or his death)? She created his notability so to speak, and he did nothing to contribute to his notability! No insensitivity intended.) Burst of unj (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On wikipedia in Norwegian there is an article called Photographs of Aylan Kurdi's corpse. Burst of unj (talk) 17:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - this discussion should maybe not be closed before the deletion discussion of Nilüfer Demir is closed (or decided). Burst of unj (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A quote (from the deletion discussion of Nilüfer Demir): "Redirect (per WP:BLP1E) to Photographs of Alan Kurdi, or to Alan Kurdi if former article should end up merged/deleted. No notability outside single event which is already covered by multiple articles.--Staberinde 19:57, 10 September 2015" --Burst of unj (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • SPACKlick's post above is also a Keep. If it does not say Keep, then the statistics link at the top of the page, will not count this as a keep. Burst of unj (talk) 11:51, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't get to tell people what their votes are. The statistics are not important, as consensus is reached by argument and discussion, not by vote counting. ~ RobTalk 12:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably statistics are important. Arguably the "stats link/button" is there for a purpose beyond "recreation" or "entertainment". Burst of unj (talk) 12:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has been moved from Talk:Alan Kurdi#Proposed merge with Photos of Aylan Kurdi's corpse. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Kurdi, which has a similar merge discussion moved from Talk:Alan Kurdi#Proposed merge to Photographs of Alan Kurdi.

I don't see the rationale for a separate article that duplicates much of the same content Flat Out (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

additional comment - I feel it would be better to gain consensus on notability of the subject and the appropriate title, than have two pages. Flat Out (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think merging is the logical solution. Aylan Kurdi was not a noteworthy person, so there should not be two separate articles. --50.67.53.203 (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Merge. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:39, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Not merge. The massive publication of photos in news media is notable and have taken on a life of its own, so to speak. And the reactions to the photos are also notable. The notability of the dead 3-year old is a arguably a quite different issue. --Burst of unj (talk) 00:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Comment - Burst of unj I feel that you are arguing that the merge should be in reverse, rather than supporting two articles. Could you please clarify? Flat Out (talk) 00:46, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment "Could you please clarify?" Not merge - no need to merge two different issues (at different levels of notability). --Burst of unj (talk) 01:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)u
  • Merge I don't see the need for more than one article at present, and as they seem to be nearly identical, it is a waste of time editing both, so I would urge that this is done as soon as possible. As for which way the merge takes place, the issue really is the semantics of the article title. 'Photos' was a poor choice, as I'm sure Wikipedia Style would prefer 'Photographs'. It is also rather premature to say exactly what real the story is going to be in the long term, as I rather suspect that there may be a lot of fallout from this incident, and the photographs that started it may just be a small part. So I think I would go with the 'Death of..' at least for the time being. As I say, I think the main thing is to get consensus for a merge and work on just one article, for the time being at least. Derek Andrews (talk) 01:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - No sense in having two articles that cover the same event.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 04:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge and Comment: Nilüfer Demir is the photographer who made the series of photos, so maybe there should also be an article about her and her work. -Mardus (talk) 05:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge it's about the same event, and if not merged most likely they will contain mostly duplicate information anyway (as they are now). HaEr48 (talk) 05:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - Seems we have consensus to merge. Burst of unj would you like to move non-duplicated information across to this article or do you want to wait for the outcome of the AfD? Flat Out (talk) 07:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
*Comment and Warning I'm sorry, but I consider it inappropriate that Burst of unj be asked to take any further action with regard to this subject. Seriously. No way is WP:NPOV anywhere near being in evidence. Investigation of his account, with first contribution dated 3rd September 2015, indicates that it was set up specifically to work this whole story alone. His first contribution was to add sizeable paragraphs which put a very negative light on the whole issue. Later contributions are of the same effect. He appears to be very determined to downplay anything to do with Alan Kurdi and even proposed the deletion of the article Alan Kurdi. It is an embarrassment to Wikipedia, in my opinion. Were the article ever to be deleted, Wikipedia itself would be foremost in the headlines, and rightly so. That the notice about proposed deletion remains, that there is a debate at all, is shameful. This cannot continue. Boscaswell (talk) 14:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
Is it ok that I share "the shame" with perhaps one hundred wikipedians on the German page, who have not asked for their deletion discussion to be closed down immediately? (Their discussion has lasted longer.) There is room on wikipedia for all notable information about Alan Kurdi. That said, there is a chance that one article will be deleted, or two, or zero. And even then, there will be room for all notable information about Alan Kurdi. Burst of unj (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge - This must happen. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 08:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge The only logical solution. I do not see the need for more than one article. Spomtplainoi (talk) 21:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge. Quickly. —  AjaxSmack  15:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Merge but ... I think the merge should be in the other direction, as proposed in the section below. The main topic is the reception of the photographs; the interest in this specific victim among tens of thousands of others is only due to the photos.  --Lambiam 09:44, 6 September 2015 (UTC) P.S. No need for a particular hurry. --L.
  • Question - Is this discussion closed now? I am asking because there is a "big box" in the discussion, and no one has added anything, so therefore it looks like a "close". Burst of unj (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's another discussion that was merged here. The overall discussion is not closed. ~ RobTalk 12:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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