Talk:Irish Americans/Archive 4
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Religion in lead
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Why is this factoid in the lede para.?:
This has no context with the rest of the para., and I think should be moved. To the casual reader it is confusing. I think I know what the author was getting at, but there needs to be a lot of build-up to this fact for it to really mean anything useful to an unfamiliar reader, and the proper place to do that is not in the lede. Shoreranger (talk) 17:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Definitely need to include all Americans of Irish origin in the article, of whatever religion, but let's be fair to all and keep it neutral. And where there is a separate article for a group, as with the Scotch-Irish discussed above, let's not have that information take over this article as well. Most Americans define Irish-American as Catholic, and there is good reason for that belief, as most of those who actively identify as Irish-American are probably Catholic. Most of the "Irish" reported as Baptist or Methodist are in all likelihood Scotch-Irish from the southern states, and they probably "reckon" they're Irish when asked by a census taker, but don't really know for sure. Most of them certainly don't identify as Irish-American from what I glean from the general scholarship on the subject (and what I know of my own kin). If anything they identify with the Scots - note the popularity of the Grandfather Mountain Highland games, and the prominence Jim Webb gives to kilts, tartans and Braveheart in his somewhat unscholarly book on the Scotch-Irish. I think rather than being in the lead, religion should be addressed in the "religion" section, as I do not think it is the single most important factor in shaping the Irish-American identity. Factors of language, economics, and history played a huge role, with religion right alongside. But it is the Irish part of them that makes them Irish-American, not the Catholic or Protestant part. Eastcote (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
We had a very lengthy discussion (above) on whether to, and where to, put the Scotch-Irish in this article. The consensus was that the Scotch-Irish should have short mention on this page, but the main Scotch-Irish content should be in the Scotch-Irish article, due to differences in national origin, language, religion, history, settlement patterns, etc. Once that agreed upon change was made, suddenly a flurry of changes began that seems to have stood that consensus on its head. The recent changes imply that all "Irish" in America are the same, with the exception of religion, and that just isn't so. I would have to see the poll questions used, but as I've stated, I suspect the majority of the "Protestant Irish" are southern descendents of the Scotch-Irish who have been here so long they don't really know where they came from and are simply guessing they are Irish. Rjensen, do you have a link that will take me to the actual questions used in the poll? Or to the poll results? I looked around on the NORC website and couldn't find either. Note that Hout & Goldstein themselves question the reliability of self-reported ancestry on page 64 "...recent work raises serious questions about how deep the roots of nationality are... Most significantly, some people are not reliable in their reports of their own nativity." Although it is OR and POV and anecdotal, it is true nonetheless, when I say that the Scotch-Irish are my own people, and the majority of us, who haven't studied the subject, have no idea where we came from with any accuracy. We have English, Scottish, Irish and French surnames. We are all mixed in with other ethnic groups like the Germans and the Welsh. Most would be only guessing when asked to provide their national origin. As many are likely to say "Scottish" or "English" when asked for their origins. Eastcote (talk) 01:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC) A couple of jokes to show my view of poll-based statistics: Did you hear about the statistician who drowned trying to wade a river with an average depth of four feet? Or how about the two priests who loved their cigarettes and wondered if prayer and smoking were compatible. They wrote to the Pope, and the first priest asked, "Is it OK to smoke while praying?" The Pope answered, "No, when praying you should devote all your attention to prayer." Then the second priest asked, "Is it OK to pray while smoking?" And the Pope answered, "Yes, prayer is appropriate at any time." So the reliability of the data depends on the context and upon the way the questions are asked. Eastcote (talk) 01:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Protestant than are Irish Catholic." A good recent source is Michael P. Carroll, "How The Irish Became Protestant in America," Religion and American Culture" 2006 16(1): 25-54. Donald Akenson, The Irish diaspora (1993) agrees. Add Timothy Meagher, The Columbia Guide to Irish American History (2005) p 4 who says the popular media assumes Irish=Catholic, but that Catholics today are outnumbered by Protestants. All experts in last 30 years say that. Wiki does not rely on the popular media but instead on reliable sources. Now let me challenge the critics to reveal their sources, please. Rjensen (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Malke I believe your assesment is SPOT ON. And what we have NOW is a hodge-podge of biased input skewed by a VERY few towards those biases--who have also gone whilly nilly across the entire article footprint "updating" other non SI data; For example, I see a SI "expert" has moved into NY Draft Riots and IA discrimination????? If the MAJORITY of the 30 plus million Irish are NOT Catholic (and not SI right?), then who the he*(& are they folks? Not only stating that the SI were THE FIRST(and ONLY) "Irish" emigrants here and giving it LEAD in the article is historically and editorially subjective --and therefore absolute RUBBISH--which was my point to begin with--and luckily LUCKILY Malke has caught that. The article clarity should NOT come down to that type of catching however regardless of what each person thinks validates their position. User Scolaire had put a great recommendation in above but it was quickly rebuffed. I insisted on (but was not matched on) NOT including what could appear to be my bias in the further physical changing of the article and I've held to that to ideally avoid the now obvious devolution. Ultimately, I think that Malke is the MOST reasoned here and should be the ONLY person agreeing to what and WHO should be putting stuff in (if he/she allows that role)..... I am not AT ALL surprised to read that the SI article is NOW being SIMILARLY "edited"173.76.208.66 (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's a good one! "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." Mark Twain173.76.208.66 (talk) 21:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Agreed Malke--A very fine university, CATHOLIC, founded I believe by a FRENCH priest....with a FOOTBALL team (et al) known as the Fighting IRISH. 173.76.208.66 (talk) 17:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm not particularly fond of sweeping generalizations such as a "tendency for many non-Irish to equal Irishness with Catholicism..." That may be one's individual experience, but it's just that--oh and btw, from my experiences with the ones I've read about, known and met not a particular bad one--but that again is just MY experience. So, mentioning Druids etc. While it may indeed be an important component to Ireland/Irish people, I myself just don't see the connection to it in the Irish AMERICAN thesis but will roll with it if it's important to others. 173.76.208.66 (talk) 19:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, druids might not have existed outside of mythology, there isn't any strong evidence for them (if they did, as with everything else in Ireland and Britain, it was imported from the Continent too). Christianity was embraced by the natives without any real bloodshed in the Early Middle Ages. Wide use of the phrase "Roman" Catholic is intelligently understood, a throw back to the Protestant Revolt, where for political reasons, persons attempted to try and minimalise the universal nature of the One True Church, founded by Jesus Christ, headed by the apostolic successor of St Peter (to whom Christ gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven). For instance the clever ploy of calling an extention of secular government, invented by the Tudors "the Church of Ireland" and if you didn't attend its services, you supported "foreign" "Romanism". - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Religion in lead and throughout articleSeveral editors feel religion should not have a heavy emphasis in the article. I tend to agree.Malke2010 19:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Ok JB-I believe you. But truthfully, and not really necessarily within the scope of working to improve this article, I am not really sure why that association seems to be so troubling to you! My my. Regardless, I am sadly and quite RATHER certain that whatever difficulty you believe you experienced, has hmmmm, let's just say quite possibly been experienced conversely by individuals within the OTHER party--and historically I would say that THAT is a DISTINCT possibility :) I do wonder how that palpable disdain could influence your objectivity here though. But THAT is enough of THAT from myself. Whomever wrote just before EastCote above N A I L E D IT. The "we were here first--we did this first--we did that THEY didn't--ascribed simply to "article integrity" which btw just happens to fall CLEARLY towards THAT writer's LINEAGE OR POV!!!!?? is fundamentally nonsensical and a totally FLAWED approach. Malke--I noticed that you provided a link to an article--WITH SOURCES-- that indicated similar/SAME arrival times etc. etc. for BOTH contituencies but--that was just quickly editorially tossed aside, and the exisiting content stands with directed by the aformentioned theme. Yet again--this also lends to me to pinpoint the need- and I'm certain that it is getting painful to hear it at this point-that we/those with "personal opinions" or "lineage" geared in one direction should step outside of actual content submission....and let Malke run the content show173.76.208.66 (talk) 21:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I saw that and went back in to attribute it to you but, I thought it CAN'T BE??? For EastCote that seems to fly completely AGAINST your long held wishes??? 173.76.208.66 (talk) 21:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Catholic-Protestant cooperation (another needed break).I apologize for the history lesson, but the shotgun use of isolated negative references, while they may be "true", do not characterize three centuries of Irish relations in America. This requires some research-based at-length refutation. I'll rearrange some of this and build it into the article to restore a little balance.
Using events from a specific place and time, to broad-brush all Irish relations in America is silly. Note that the battling rioters in New York were immigrants, and once the new immigrants settled in, the Orange and Green antagonism subsided among succeeding generations. The Orange Order, whose marches were the cause of the riots, stood out because they were "unknown", and after the 1870s became virtually non-existent. The riots are history, but not materially significant in the overall picture. Walk out your door (if you're in the USA) and ask the first person you meet if they know what the Orange Order is, and see what kind of look you get. Citing isolated examples of Protestant-Catholic conflict ignores other isolated examples of Protestant-Catholic cooperation, such as politician Mike Walsh, son of an Irish Protestant veteran of the 1798 Irish Rebellion, who was a champion of working-class Irish in New York City, both Catholic and Protestant. Or Irish nationalist John Mitchel, son of a Presbyterian preacher, who lived in the United States during the Civil War period publishing several newspapers which advocated for the rights of all Irish of whatever religion. Or the joint Catholic-Protestant formation of the Friendly Sons of St. Patrick in Philadelphia in 1771. Eastcote (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
erasing good historyBefore Malke erases good history he must explain exactly what issues he now has with the specific information. We cannot edit by wholesale erasing so let's try specific points. If a statement is "unbalanced" OK, we can deal with that and balance it. Which specific statemebnts are "unbalanced"? So let's start:
Still anticipating you striking through your comments. WP:CIVIL.Malke2010 03:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
RJ--In the context of this article, and the editorial debate, I have OFTEN personally disagreed with Malke--(mostly on his/her agreement with other's content); HOWEVER, with that written, she/he has been the most REASONABLE in the debate and I have therefore found it, for myself, only reasonable to follow her/his guidance through this--EVEN WHEN I PERSONALLY DISAGREE. It's probably fair to say that other's find it so as well.... And it'd probably be most beneficial if you'd do same--reread what Malke wrote above, hold off from retortin'....there is not a consensus here YET so if yah got stuff to add try to realize that while indeed it may be valid input, so far your tactics, as unintended as they may be, are not helping173.76.208.66 (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
There were two significant waves of Irish immigration in American history: roughly 1720-1770, and roughly 1840-1900. One of the objections I have to your edits is that you are trying to conflate immigrants from these two different periods to give the impression of a monolithic Irish Protestant majority that is in violent conflict with Irish Catholics. To support this idea of mass conflict you cite what authors have written about riots in New York and Philadelphia in the 1870s, ignoring that these were specifically localized and that the major settlement of Irish Protestants was a century earlier and in a different part of the country. Your citations from Gleeson and Akenson do not mention America. They are talking about what was taking place in Ireland. But neither author supports your notion of a monolithic Irish Protestant bloc in America. David Gleeson, from what I can see, confines his work to the second period of Irish immigration. Akenson also offers evidence against this monolithic Irish Protestant consciousness. Your own citation indicates that this growing division (in Ireland, not in America) began about 1820. This is a good fifty years after the migration of the Scotch-Irish to America, after the founding of the United Irishmen and Orange Order, and after the Act of Union. The majority of scholars who write on the Scotch-Irish (Leyburn, Griffin, Fischer, Fisher, Kelly, Williams, Rouse, to name a few) follow the line that by 1800 or so the Scotch-Irish of the earlier immigration period had vanished as a recognizable ethnic group, had intermarried with English, Germans and others, and were now specifically American, pushing west across the Mississippi, and were nowhere near the centers of later Irish immigration. They just plain had other things on their minds besides Irish Catholic immigrants. Yes, your edits are "true" and backed by references, but you seem to be selecting your references with an overall bias in mind. You are "fact-bombing" this article, without taking the time to fit the facts into overall context. Fact-bombing is disruptive because it then leaves other editors to straighten out the mess. Yes, there were a few instances of localized conflict between Irish Protestant and Catholic immigrants in the 19th century, but you are pushing this as characteristic of inter-Irish American relations, and that is not NPOV. Eastcote (talk) 19:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Sources - continued from aboveOne really has to consider a source in context, and consider the source of that source. For instance, the article Malke links to above[http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/03/ano_irish_need.php], while it might have all sorts of references to back it up, is published by American Renaissance magazine, which is described as a racialist magazine, and bills itself as "America's premiere publication of racial-realist thought." It is published by the New Century Foundation, which has been criticized by the Anti-Defamation League as promoting "genteel racism" and for employing dubious techniques to claim the superiority of whites and the need for racial purity. It's founder, Jared Taylor, is on the board of the Council of Conservative Citizens, which supports white nationalism and white separatism. Indeed, the ADF has labelled American Renaissance a "white supremacist journal". Now, I would think that anyone who knowingly used such a reference would be pushing an agenda, which at the very least would be considered "fringe". That's frowned on in Wikipedia, and is damned un-American besides. Many of our Irish American fathers and grandfathers fought a war to stamp out that sort of thing. But, you don't adhere to such theories, do you Mr. Rjensen? Eastcote (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2010 (UTC) I will be reading over this discussion and have something on the mediation page by tonight. -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ 11:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC) |
Draft Riots
Of course, blame the immigrants when something goes wrong. Heaven forbid that we should blame New York's WASP and wannabe WASP commercial interests for stirring up the trouble or the Lincoln administration for pigheadedly holding an unpopular and flawed draft (many men were on the candidate lists two or three times, home work and wherever) when the NYC's militia was in Pennsylvania.
And why single out the Irish to blame for the New York City draft riots. The Irish immigrants weren't even close to a majority of the people living in NYC in 1863. The people who stirred up the trouble, except for August Belmont, a German immigrant, were all native born Americans like Samuel Morse, Manton Marble and Fernando Wood, whose parents were Welch and German.
Moreover, most of New York didn't riot, including the Irish. The only reason a relatively small number of rioters caused so much mayhem was because a few weeks before the NYC militia (20 regiments, count 'em 20 !!!!!!!!!) had been mobilized and sent to resist the Confederate invasion of Pennsylvania, which culminated in the battle at Gettysburg.
In fact, most of the riot dead were the "rioters" gunned down by panicked troops from the harbor forts, the police and militia. Many were woman and children. This is well-known, but little acknowledged. How we remember the draft riots today is a product of the historically WASP history department of the Ivy League and their lingering nativism - and I suspect this article is, too.
How would anyone know the rioters were Irish -- did someone check their passports?
IN FACT, according to the tables in Adrian Cook's "The Armies of the Streets", MOST OF THE 400 PEOPLE ARRESTED DURING THE RIOTS DON'T HAVE IRISH NAMES, which is a statistical predictor (though not perfect) of Irish origin.
Most self-identified Irish Americans are protestant.
In the lede -An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 11.9% of total population—reported some Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey.[3] The only self-reported ancestral group larger than Irish Americans are German Americans.[3] In addition another 3.5 million Americans identify more specifically with Scots-Irish ancestry. In Scotch-Irish American Article- In the United States in 2000, 3.8 million people claim "Scotch Irish" ancestry, while another 18 million say they are Protestant and Irish So in round numbers 40 million Irish 22 million are Protestant and 18 million are Catholic. So most self-reporting Irish ancestry are not Irish Catholics. From the talk pages it appears this article is mostly about the Irish-American-Catholic group so the population breakdowns should be mentioned. Nitpyck (talk) 03:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
It is also a known fact and should be further mentioned, that Irish Catholic immigration has been a larger than Irish Protestant immigration to the USA. You can looks at census records to see that. Also, it is also a known fact that a large number of American's who claim Irish descent but are Protestant, also descend from an Irish Catholic forebear. Many down the years have moved away from the Catholic Church and joined other Christian sects through intermarriage. The fact of the matter is that there will never been a true indication at this stage of the number of American's who descend from a truly Irish Catholic or Protestant background. The census is about perception and self identity and we must only go on the census figures who those who select Irish or Scotch Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.114.127 (talk) 23:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
My understanding is that a large majority of Irish Catholics who came to America in the 18th Century were men. When they picked wives in colonial America, the wives were usually Protestant women of other origins. The children were raised as Protestants, their mother's faith. Also, in many colonies, there were no Catholic churches, so many Irish Catholics attended services at Protestant churches. Eventually, they assimilated into Protestant culture and became Protestants. According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, there were 400,000 persons of Irish birth or descent in 1790 out of a white population of 3.1 million; half of these were from Ulster and half were from the other parts of Ireland. The notion that most of the Irish in Colonial America were from Ulster is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.82.5 (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
this article is about all irish americans, not just catholic or protestant, so this conversation is totally irrelevant.Archiviveer (talk) 22:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Test every claminant Whoore in america with white skin for R1b1 traces, all highborns will have slight traces,, the rest will need to get back in the ring--MINTTEA1000 (talk) 11:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Joe Biden
Shouldn't JB be on the page, given a mother surnamed Finnegan? Or are Veeps no longer notable?Red Hurley (talk) 19:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Joe Biden should be included.Malke2010 23:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Since when did surnames have anything to do with it? My surname's french, but if I go back four or five generations I don't find any french ancestry! Triangl (talk) 14:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
New York Riots
Is it the intention of this Wikipedia article to only portray the positive aspects of Irish Americans? A good case in point is the inclusion or not of the New York Riots of 1863 - This turned into a brutal race riot & was not the greatest day for Irishmen.
Another point is the San Patricios Battalion[2] ... another incident involving Irish Americans undertaking activity that does not fit the 'standard'
Text under dispute:
During the American Civil War, Irish Americans volunteered in high numbers for the Union army, and at least thirty-eight Union regiments had the word "Irish" in their title. [citation needed] However, conscription was resisted by the Irish and others as an imposition on liberty.[citation needed] When the conscription law was passed in 1863, draft riots erupted in New York. The New York draft coincided with the efforts of Tammany Hall to enroll Irish immigrants as citizens so they could vote in local elections. Many such immigrants suddenly discovered they were now expected to fight for their new country. The Irish, employed primarily as laborers, were usually unable to afford the $300 as a "commutation fee" to procure exemption from service, while more established New Yorkers receiving better pay were able to hire substitutes and avoid the draft.[3] Many of the recent immigrants viewed freed slaves as competition for scarce jobs and as the reason why the civil war was being fought. African Americans who fell into the mob's hands were often beaten, tortured, and/or killed, including one man, William Jones, who was attacked by a crowd of 400 with clubs and paving stones, then hung from a tree and set alight.[4][5] The Colored Orphan Asylum on Fifth Avenue, which provided shelter for hundreds of children, was attacked by a mob, although the police were able to secure the orphanage for enough time to allow orphans to escape.[6] [7] 216.107.194.166 (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
References
- ^ Michael P. Carroll, "How The Irish Became Protestant In America," Religion and American Culture" 2006 16(1): 25-54
- ^ http://historystuff.info/san-patricios-batallonst-patricks-battalion/
- ^ William V. Shannon, The American Irish: a political and social portrait, Univ. of Massachusetts (1989), Pgs 57-59, and Adrian Cook, The Armies of the Streets: The New York City Draft Riots of 1863 (1982)
- ^ Leslie M, Harris, In the Shadow of Slavery: African Americans in New York City, 1626-1863, University Of Chicago Press; 1 edition (February 2, 2003)
- ^ http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html
- ^ Leslie M, Harris, In the Shadow of Slavery: African Americans in New York City, 1626-1863, University Of Chicago Press; 1 edition (February 2, 2003)
- ^ http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1863/august/riots-in-new-york.htm
- Very little of what is stated in that paragraph has anything to do with the Irish. A great many people participated in the Draft Riot, not just the Irish, and the deaths of Black people during said riots cannot be blamed entirely on the Irish. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- The attention of a number of this article's editors is currently on the religion-related issues, above, and this issue is another ember about to erupt another controversy. Nevertheless, this needs consensus before any major changes are made, as the text in question - or similar ideas - have been included in the article for some time, and are sourced, and therefore should not be removed without consensus - which may not happen for a while with most editors focused elsewhere. Shoreranger (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- If in fact 'conscription was resisted' by the Irish why did so many volunteer to fight? Usually those who fight the draft also refuse to enlist. Nitpyck (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Many Irish were destitute coming off the immigrant "coffin ships" and desperate. Many joined just to eat. However, that is just the point - they *joined*, they were not compelled to go by a draft. Many who joined were single men with no familes. Many who were drafted were family men that did not want to leave their immigrant wives and children to the mercies of their new home. There is a big difference between deciding if the best thing for you and your family is an enlistment option and being forced to serve regardless. In addition, there was large resentment over the unimagined result of registering for American citizenship (encouraged in New York by the local political machine at Tammany Hall in order to build up a voting base) making them eligible for the draft, whereas non-citizens, and those who were ineligible for the draft by virtue of their race, were not compelled to fight. Shoreranger (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- The Irish were very well-represented in both the Confederate and Union armies. Many of the high-ranking officers were also of Irish birth or parentage. Actually, it's an Irish tradition to fight in foreign armies.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- The main point to this discussion is that if we do include a historical event, we should ensure that a balanced view is presented. The original draft riot text implied that the riots occured as an expression of liberty by the new immigrants & did not mention the destructive forces unleashed. There is no doubt that many Irish men served bravely in the Union and Confederate armies.216.107.194.166 (talk) 13:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is not the place for such detailed discussion of the Draft Riot, unless it can be proved that Irish-Americans were the main participants or instigators. Including it, especially in such detail, and with such clear implication that this is proof of Irish-American racism, gives undue weight to one event in an article which covers a wide variety of topics. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 13:44, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree with your assumption that only "unless it can be proved that Irish-Americans were the main participants or instigators" should the draft riots be included in this article. What if they weren't the "main participaants" (and I am not saying they weren't, but just for the sake of this discussion let's say they weren't) but they were a 'significant contributor'? Whould that be worthy of inclusion? Nevertheless, I believe there is enough scholarly evidence to indicate that the Irish were "the main participants" - if not on the rioter's side, then on the police and troops that put down the riot. If proper balance is achieved and all sides of the story are addressed, then there will be no "undue weight" on this one, very important and nationally significant event in the article. History can be a dirty, sticky, mess sometimes but you can't ignore the bad for the good. Shoreranger (talk) 14:24, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Uncited Claims
Shoreranger removed my comment regarding the Irish clergy abuse scandal. My comment linked directly into the article describing the Archdiocese of Dublin's admission of wrongdoing. What further "citation" is required than to have the admission of the perpetrator? While some Irish Catholics may find it uncomfortable to have their "religious" practices under justifiable and long-delayed public scrutiny, attempting to suppress comment about them, and objecting to the drawing of obvious inferences, is merely POV on their part. John Paul Parks (talk) 15:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- This article is about Irish Americans. If you have a peer-reviewed source that directly connects the Irish clergy scandal in Ireland to Irish Americans in the United States, specifically, then please provide it. Otherwise, the information is off-topic as well as uncited. Shoreranger (talk) 21:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
As Irish As Coca Cola
As an Irish citizen I find the inclusion of some "Irish Americans" on the list as complete nonsense. It would appear that if you ever drank a pint of Guinness or wore a green shirt your an Irish American. Unless someone publicly declared themselves to be of Irish heritage and can in fact prove it then they should be removed from the list. We should not retrospectively attribute Irishness to someone who while alive never alluded to it themselves. There are alot of things about Ireland that cause no pride even amongst the Irish. (Shankhill river (talk) 08:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC))
Number of pictures in infobox
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/To_Catch_a_Thief1.jpg/220px-To_Catch_a_Thief1.jpg)
Earlier today, DinDraithou added three more pictures to the infobox. I reverted saying no discussion had taken place or explanation been offered for the change. Later in the day, DinDraithou reverted, saying "I hardly need your permission." Now, as far as that goes, he or she does not need my permission. However, I see no need for more pictures, and I do believe there should be a discussion about such changes. I think that 12 pictures is enough, in fact, it might be too many. But, 16 is overkill. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Total nonsense. You're trying to pick a fight. Has it been a while since you were last blocked? DinDraithou (talk) 05:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should have more pictures. It's a long article. It can handle it and Grace Kelly's picture must be there. She was a very famous Irish American.Malke2010 23:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Do you happen to recall this edit, Mr. "12 pictures is enough, in fact, it might be too many"? I don't understand why we should have to have a discussion every time we add or swap an image. I've added and swapped several infobox images in other articles and no editor has ever stubbornly reverted my edits saying that I need to "discuss such changes first". I think it's time for you to stop being dictator of the infobox images. There should definitely be more images. --John of Lancaster (talk) 04:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why do we not have an infobox that goes all the way down the page? O Fenian (talk) 08:33, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Three more images will hardly make the infobox "go all the way down the page". It's a long article. There are way too few infobox images compared to other articles. Just look at the Italian American article. --John of Lancaster (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- There also needs to be more women; Grace Kelly could be added.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, definitely have Grace Kelly.Malke2010 19:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Grace Kelly should definitely be included. She's a very notable Irish American. F. Scott Fitzgerald should also be included. He's regarded as one of the greatest writers of the 20th century. --John of Lancaster (talk) 19:52, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely, F. Scott Fitzgerald. Any idea where we can get fair use/copyright free photos?Malke2010 20:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know, but I think a new infobox image should be created. It should be an expansion of this one. That way, we'll have a single image in the infobox rather than one large one and six separate smaller ones. Here's my idea of what it should look like:
John F. Kennedy Mother Jones Geoge M. Cohan James Braddock Michael J. McGivney James Michael Curley Victor Herbert Eugene O'Neill Ed Sullivan Grace Kelly F. Scott Fitzgerald Ronald Reagan John Carroll Cyrus McCormick Maureen O'Hara
- Can we put Grace Kelly at the top? I'm sure Jack Kennedy won't mind being next to her.Malke2010 13:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. But can I be cheeky and suggest Billy the Kid instead of John Carroll? Someone notorious like him adds a bit of spice to the brew. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd rather ding Mother Jones. John Carroll made important, major educational contribs to America. His work is still affecting people's lives today. Also, I just checked and Billy the Kid doesn't seem to have a definite Irish background. It seems there's a question about it in his article, so I don't think he would be a good addition in the picture box.Malke2010 14:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to see some more representation from earlier American history. There are signers of the Declaration and Constitution to choose from, Revolutionary War Irish-born Generals Wayne, Sullivan, Irving, Shee, Lewis, Butler, and Commodore John Barry. And, by the way, choosing from this group would make it easy to add some diversity to the current crop of images which - as far as I can tell - are all Catholic or owe their Irish ancestry to a Catholic, and this article is supposed to be bigger than that. And, as for notorious representation, how about Bugs Moran, Mickey Spillane (mobster), James J. Bulger, and more. Shoreranger (talk) 17:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Catholic Education
The entries regarding Catholic education, especially the comments about Boston College are false. It was founded by the Jesuits who have always been known for their scholarship, and not just church doctrine. They are the order that believes in education to better serve people everywhere. And the scholarship at BC was always high. Harvard University didn't admit Catholics at that time which is one reason why the Catholic schools were founded. Boston College is among what John F. Kennedy called, "Jesuit Ivy." I'll change it, especially since the claims aren't cited.Malke2010 23:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Ulster American Folk Park
Someone should choose the best place to add a link to the Ulster Folk Park in County Tyrone, which follows the emigrant experience by Irish Americans of all religions. If Ulster people can agree (yes, only recently!) that both strands are a big part of the American formative story, then this article should reflect that.86.46.232.138 (talk) 07:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Edit by Shoreranger on 7/9/10
Hi Mr. Shoreranger. I reverted your edit under the 19th century section, because you removed important and interesting information without adequate explanation, except to say that it was redundant. Specifically, the original version of this section states the reasons for Irish immigration to America before the American Revolution (coming as servants, penal deportations, etc.). I think this information should remain here. It is not redundant; it is not contained anywhere else in the article. Also, the reference to Irish Catholics immigrating to America in large numbers before the Revolution is consistent with statistics provided in the 18th - 19th centuries section of the article; statistics, I might add, from entirely credible and sholarly sources.
I've seen your edits before in Wikipedia articles, and, for the most part, I find them to be responsible and productive. I'm sure you have a lot of fun editing Wiki articles; more power to you. But, in my opinion, when a Wiki article has existed for a long period of time, its original content should not be edited without a very compelling reason, especially if the edit just simply removes information that is important to understanding the article's subject matter.
Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.82.5 (talk) 00:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I would think that before you refer to this type of edit as "seems like vandalism", you should assume good faith on the part of the editor, especially one with as longstanding and stable a presence as Shoreranger. The edit was explained in the edit summary and does not qualify as vandalism. Disagreeing with the edit is a different matter, and should be brought up on this talk page, as you have done. As for the edit itself, I would think the info on occupations and how they arrived in the first paragraph of the 19th century section wouldn't hurt to remain, if properly referenced. Mention of the Catholic religion in the first para could probably come out, as the occupations and indenture were common to immigrants of all religions. The ratio of Catholic to Protestant is mentioned in para two of the 19th century section. Eastcote (talk) 01:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Dear Eastcote:
Thank you for submitting your comments. I will be interested to see Shoreanger's thoughts on this. Hopefully, he/she will respond in the near future.
I don't fully understand some of your comments. For example, you say that in the 19th century section, you might be in favor of leaving occupations and how they arrrived in the article if properly referenced. It is referenced. At the end of the sentence you are referring to, there appears reference no. 11. Of course, I wasn't able to double-check this reference to see if it looks valid, because it's not presented as on online link.
Also, you say that we might take out the reference to Roman Catholic Irish in this section because the occupation of indenture was so common among many different groups at that time. I don't understand your reasoning. This part of the article is specifically about Catholic Irish occupations in America, and how they were an emigration cause for Catholic Irish people, not about the occupations of everyone in America at that time.
You also say that another reason for removing "Catholic" at the top of the section is because the ratio of Catholics and Protestants is given elsewhere in the section. True, there is a reference to the fact that between 1820 and 1866, two-thirds of Irish immigrants were Catholic. But, again, at the top of the section, the section is specifically about Catholic Irish. In my opinion, removing the Catholic reference at the beginning of the section would make the section confusing to most readers and detract from its clarity.
Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.82.5 (talk) 20:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- The section headings are "18th to Mid-19th Century" and "Mid-19th Century and Later". As such both Catholic and Protestant are represented in both sections. I agree that it was at one time intended that the first section deal with Scotch-Irish, and the second section deal with Catholic immigration. But subsequent edits have tended to blend the two groups, and with the current headings this is probably as it should be. Catholics should be included in the 18th century piece and Ulster Scots should be included in the 19th century piece, as settlement/immigration was not exclusively one or the other at any time period, even though one group or the other may have been the majority of the arrivals at different times in American history. Eastcote (talk) 21:45, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have anything to add at the moment, except to note that Eastcote seems to have an excellent handle not only on the purpose and intent of my edits, but on the way the article is organically developing, as well. Shoreranger (talk) 15:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Dear Eastcote and Shoreranger,
I read Eastcote's most recent comments above, and I understand and agree with them. So, for now, let's let Shoreranger's recent edits stand, that is until the next roving Wikipedia editor comes along to make new changes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.82.5 (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Proposal to ban user-created montages from Infoboxes
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Infobox_Images_for_Ethnic_Groups. Bulldog123 09:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)