Talk:Uğur Şahin

Ethnicity in the lead

Similar to the page on Şahin's wife and business partner Özlem Türeci, the nationality has been changed back and forth a few times, so I'm going to start a discussion here if anyone feels the need for one. As per WP:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." It is, of course, perfectly within the article's scope to mention his Turkish roots - but under Early life or Personal life, not in the lead. --Tserton (talk) 22:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
There seem to be a lot of nationalists on both sides who want to "claim" Şahin as their own, given the large number of edits by new accounts. The NYT article identifying him as "Turkish" contradicts every other source on the topic (e.g. [1], [2], [3]), which makes it likely it's referring to his ethnicity, not citizenship - but it's unclear. It's quite possible that his citizenship isn't public information and all these news outlets are just guessing. (It'd be a super weird and completely irrelevant question to ask in an interview anyway.) If more contradictory sources emerge, we might need to remove his nationality entirely as per WP:Conflicting sources. It might be best to wait for things to calm down and the public interest to subside in order to avoid a full-blown edit war. For now, I'm going to revert the current state of the article (which identifies him as just "Turkish") to Turkish-German. I'd encourage all the users tempted to revert and re-revert to join in discussing here before doing so, though!--Tserton (talk) 01:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

+1. As long as we don’t have clear proof that he identifies as „Turkish“ although he now has only the German citizenship, we should speak of „German (with Turkish descent)“. The same with his wife. The current phrasing is misleading. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Most Turks in Germany have dual citizenship. Therefore I think "Turkish-German" can be adopted as the default term in this context unless proven otherwise, i.e. there is a reliable source showing that the person in question has only German citizenship, in which case it is a matter of ethnic origin, which might be Turkish or Kurdish etc. Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 11:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

First of all, that is not true. There are about 2.8M people with Turkish descent in Germany. Around 1.5 of them have the Turkish citizenship. Among those only around 250k people have the Turkish AND the German citizenship[1]. The reason: Before 2000 it was not possible to get German citizenship without losing the Turkish one.

Ugur Sahin does only have the German citizenship. See: „Beide sind Kinder türkischer Einwanderer, deutsche Staatsbürger und weltweit angesehene Wissenschaftler.“ = „Both are children of Turkish immigrants, German citizens and globally respected scientists.“

[WP:ETHNICITY]: „The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.“ So we know, that he has got the German citizenship. We don’t know whether he identifies with the German ethnicity. Thus we must not write or insinuate otherwise. Anyway, it would be against WP:ETHNICITY because it is not relevant for his activities. However, we can write that he is of Turkish descent. Hence, I will correct the phrasing. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

First of all, that is not true. There are about 2.8M people with Turkish descent in Germany. Around 1.5 of them have the Turkish citizenship. Among those only around 250k people have the Turkish AND the German citizenship[2]. The reason: Before 2000 it was not possible to get German citizenship without losing the Turkish one.

Ugur Sahin does only have the German citizenship. See: „Beide sind Kinder türkischer Einwanderer, deutsche Staatsbürger und weltweit angesehene Wissenschaftler.“ = „Both are children of Turkish immigrants, German citizens and globally respected scientists.“

WP:ETHNICITY: „The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.“ So we know, that he has got the German citizenship. We don’t know whether he identifies with the German ethnicity. Thus we must not write or insinuate otherwise. Anyway, it would be against WP:ETHNICITY because it is not relevant for his activities. However, we can write that he is of Turkish descent. Hence, I will correct the phrasing. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@A11w1ss3nd: In the light of WP:ETHNICITY and lack of proof of dual citizenship, I will not dispute the current lead sentence. However, I think we can add Turkish in the infobox as "nationality" which exists there as a parameter in addition to "citizenship". The fact that these two terms are often used interchangeably should not be confusing here. The term "nationality" here should be understood as "a group of people with the same language, culture and history" IMHO... Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 11:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Nationality is not precisely defined and for German only citizens with foreign descent it is unusual to define another nationality. What’s wrong with only writing „Turkish descent“? Turkish nationality is speculation, respectively imprecise. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 11:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@A11w1ss3nd: I have quoted above Oxford English dictionary definition of nationality in the sense that is different from citizenship. The lead sentence is OK for me as I've said. However, we should accept people with the ethnic identities, nationalities, etc. they indentify themselves with. The citizens of Germany do not consist of Germans only, just the same way as the citizens of Turkey do not consist of Turks only. There is a sizeable Turkish population in Germany who preserve their Turkish identity, the same way as there are Kurds, Armenians, etc. in Turkey. Talking about these minorities as "Germans of Turkish descent" or "Turks of Kurdish descent, Turks of Armenian descent etc." is not quite right, because this term somewhat falls short of accepting/recognizing/respecting their different identity. I know this issue is a bit sensitive in countries like Germany, Turkey, etc. who have some strong nationalist backgrounds, but this is a fact that should be accepted: there are Turks (people who identify themselves as Turkish) in Germany, and there are Kurds (people who identify themselves as Kurdish) in Turkey, etc... Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but we don’t have enough good proof that Ugur Sahin identifies himself as Turkish. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 12:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Can we make this article protected? There is a user that keeps adding Kurdish to Sahin's ethnic background in the lead. Sahin himself has stated that he is Turkish-German, so what's the intension here? --Bertan92 (talk) 15:30, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

This is weird. In every respectful article they are referred as either Turkish-German or German-Turkish but interestingly people push here to not write "German-Turkish" or "Turkish-German" on both scientists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.129.60 (talk) 20:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The current edit war is a bit odd:

Since then, Dr. Sahin, who is Turkish, has developed a friendship with Albert Bourla, the Greek chief executive of Pfizer. The pair said in recent interviews that they had bonded over their shared backgrounds as scientists and immigrants. “We realized that he is from Greece, and that I’m from Turkey,” Dr. Sahin said, without mentioning their native countries’ long-running antagonism. “It was very personal from the very beginning.” ... In Germany, where immigration continues to be a fractious issue, the success of two scientists of Turkish descent was cause for celebration." The New York Times

Also, the part I added [3] also seems to have been reported in the German press [4] (I used google translate, so if someone can confirm?) Bogazicili (talk) 16:16, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Can confirm (German source). Hauptschul-story. It says: "Born in Turkey" Grimes2 (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, "Initially he was recommended to attend a hauptschule; upon intervention of his German neighbour, he went to a gymnasium" is what I meant, thx. Bogazicili (talk) 16:28, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Der Freitag is a reliable source. Grimes2 (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Thing is, that one NYT source is dwarfed by the number of sources describing him as German - I expect the author of that article intended to describe his ethnicity, not his nationality. And we don't hyphenate people's nationalities just because they have some arbitrary ancestry. As per MOS:CONTEXTBIO: The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. His Turkish ancestry is irrelevant to his notability. (I would argue that that would apply even for a dual Turkish citizenship, if it were convincingly demonstrated, since he isn't known for work in Turkey (but I'm not dogmatic about that and it's a hypothetical anyway.) --Tserton (talk) 01:34, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the solution "Turkish-born German oncologist" is good, because being Turkish-born increases the performance of his exceptional career in Germany. Grimes2 (talk) 04:32, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It does not matter what you consider as "good". What matters is the truth. There is no source about a dual-citizenship. We've been talking about this for weeks now. Can somebody please protect this page once for all. Even his wife - for the thousandth time - pronounces his name in a German way. State-run television Phoenix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WAoD8v46No (18:00) --Dersim9999 (talk) 12:40, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

You can add the German pronunciation too then and link it to German IPA key. The default one shows English key. Also information should be presented how reliable sources present them. NYT is a reliable source for example. Bogazicili (talk) 12:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

My dear Bogazcili, again: You are adding subtly his Turkish background by stating that his name is pronounced in a Turkish way which is completely wrong so you can bypass the policy. WP:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." --Dersim9999 (talk) 12:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

See: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation#Foreign_names. Bogazicili (talk) 12:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm always interested in a compromise. We can write "Turkey-born" to avoid citizenship-question. His birth and his first years in Turkey belong to his life, not his ethnicity! Grimes2 (talk) 12:57, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It's just bypassing the policy, Grimes2. I don't see a difference. --Dersim9999 (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Also his ethnicity is notable per sources too. Barack Obama has his ethnicity in the lead as well, for example. Bogazicili (talk) 13:04, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

One of the other problems is that the Turkish wikipedians don't comprehend that his name is germanized for the simple reason that he is a German. The German pronounciation is common in every interview you can find. --Dersim9999 (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Notable is the successful integration. Grimes2 (talk) 13:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Dersim9999, stop edit warring and achieve consensus. Also, don't call you colleague's edits vandalism. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 14:41, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I am the only one who delivers sources. Did you even look what I've been doing for weeks. What you do is just bypassing the policy. See: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uğur_Şahin --Dersim9999 (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

To everyone apparently desperately trying to emphasize Şahin's Turkishness: what makes him different from Mila Kunis, Miroslav Klose, Lukas Podolski, Kazuo Ishiguro, Elaine Chao? Why should he be described as anything but German? Here's an alternative suggestion for compromise: we add a second paragraph with a highly condensed summary of his biography to the lead. (Moved to Germany at age 4 from Turkey, studied medicine, then a sentence on his research and another one on his entrepreneurial activities. But takeaway of the section still has to be on what he's known for: his science. Not his ancestry.) --Tserton (talk) 22:17, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF. Though even Mila Kunis article mentions her Ukrainian background in the second sentence. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Good compromise. But this means more text about not notable things in the lead. Here are related examples of "Turkish-born": Paul Ziemiak, Numan Acar, Levi Strauss. I think the question is "Turkish-born" or not. I'm open for both versions. Grimes2 (talk) 11:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Correct IPA links per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Pronunciation#Foreign_names is not "apparently desperately trying to emphasize Şahin's Turkishness". That's a rather odd thing to say. Bogazicili (talk) 12:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

My lifetime is too precious so I will only say this: Why are you stubbornly trying to emphasize in the lead that he was born in Turkey. We do not deny that he wasn't born there. This information could exist in the section below the lead - compliant to the policy. Why not. But in the first place he is a German scientist who studied in Cologne and especially grew up there. I really don't comprehend your actions caused by temparement. It will change nothing in your own lifes. It's not about his ethnicity, but about his achievements in science. --Dersim9999 (talk) 13:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

We are trying to build better articles by complying with Wikipedia Manual of Style? I told you to add the German pronunciation too. I don't speak any German. Bogazicili (talk) 13:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

There is a misunderstanding. I see it now by watching the history. Everything was perfect until an unregistreted user appeared. He reversed to the old version with the term "Turkish-born". I guess the admin just activated the protection shortly after this. --Dersim9999 (talk)

So we add the German prononciation with the Turkish one and erase the "Turkish-born"-Term?--Dersim9999 (talk) 13:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, not the German one. So he should be described how reliable sources describe him. He clearly calls himself that he is from Turkey: ' “We realized that he is from Greece, and that I’m from Turkey,” Dr. Sahin said.' [5] I think editors should be more respectful to how he identifies himself. I think "Turkish-born" is appropriate given the above quote from the New York Times. Bogazicili (talk) 13:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

There are also reliable sources where he considers himself as a German scientist. But why you want this Information in the lead? The lead should stay objective. There is no source of a dual-citizenship. --Dersim9999 (talk) 13:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Dersim9999 and Bogazicili, how about adding both German and Turkish pronunciations? --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 14:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Yup, this is also what I suggested. Bogazicili (talk) 15:51, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

First of all: I have no problem with that either. My only concern was that somebody wrote unnecessarily in small letters "Turkish pronounciation". The solution that we face now is more than acceptable. However I will erase the term "Turkish-born" to comply with the policy and to preserve objectivity. (Furthermore you can read it already in the section below.) Are we agreed? --Dersim9999 (talk) 17:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm also in favor of putting in both the German and Turkish pronunciations. And leaving out "Turkish-born." --Tserton (talk) 22:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Dersim9999, "Turkish pronunciation" is automatically written when you use the {{IPA-tr}} template: (Turkish pronunciation: [abc]) Bogazicili (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Nah, Turkish-born stays. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 20:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

It stays in the section below, but not in the lead. Reason? --Dersim9999 (talk) 20:58, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

With respect, the manual of style isn't vague on this: places of birth don't go into the lead. I think your issue is with the manual of style, not with this specific article. --Tserton (talk) 22:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Exactly: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability" per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context. And it is relevant:

"“We realized that he is from Greece, and that I’m from Turkey,” Dr. Sahin said...In Germany, where immigration continues to be a fractious issue, the success of two scientists of Turkish descent was cause for celebration"

It is how he identifies himself and relevant. I'm surprised that this has become an issue. Bogazicili (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems appropriate to have the Turkish pronunciation of his name, and that he is a German citizen in the first sentence. Further, in the first paragraph, it is quite relevant to include that he is the first Turkish-German to be listed in the country's richest list and the first Turkish German billionaire. This was cited some time ago using The Guardian article. Why was it removed? This fact is important and a good way to illustrate his dual identity in the lead. Sseevv (talk) 01:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

That is also another option. What is clear is that his background is notable per reliable sources and should be mentioned in the lead. Another example:

"Their journey as Turkish Germans cannot have been easy. Discrimination, overt or subtle, is rife in German society. This study, for example, showed that teachers in elementary school tend to give worse grades to students with Turkish-sounding names than to those with German ones, and to send them on less promising tracks in secondary school."[6]

Bogazicili (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

This is an article about a German scientist who entered a worldwide competition on German soil by using the mRNA-technology as possilibty to vaccinate humanity to save lives. Not about racism in general. You could put it though in the section below. --Dersim9999 (talk) 01:24, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say this article was about racism in general. I gave another example of how his background is relevant to his notability. He is notable for the vaccine, and for other things. At a minimum, we will have to mention he is the first Turkish German billionaire in the lead, preferably at the end.Bogazicili (talk) 13:54, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

References

You're misinterpretating the guidelines. Speaking of the term "notable" which is written down in the guidlines: Turkey or his Turkish background were not the key for his success.--Dersim9999 (talk) 16:10, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

No, I am not misinterpreting. This article is about Uğur Şahin as a person. It should be comprehensive. It's not just about Uğur Şahin's vaccine discovery. It's clear we do not agree though. Is there anyone else disagreeing with adding first Turkish German billionaire into the lead? Bogazicili (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

The lead has to be written neutrally. --2003:E8:170C:9B30:6037:19A5:871D:A921 (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

2003:E8:170C:9B30:6037:19A5:871D:A921, avoid edit warring. We've already established that a consensus needs to reached until the lead is changed or stays unaltered. Be aware of possible sanctions for edit warring. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 19:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

The responsible admin is also of the opinion that it is against the guidelines. Nevertheless, as long as we have not agreed the policy is anteceding. --Dersim9999 (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

As I've said above, Şahin (and his wife) being the first Turkish German billionaires is significant and worthy of being mentioned in the first paragraph of both articles. But obviously, this is not necessary for the very first sentence. Sseevv (talk) 20:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed compromise

I've made a bold edit (here) that hopefully addresses some of the wide-ranging concerns with the article lead. Specifically, I added a second paragraph summarizing the major points of Şahin's life and career. I accordingly removed the parts of the first paragraph that are now covered in the second.

Uğur Şahin ( [uːɾ ʃaː.hin]; born September 29, 1965) is a German oncologist and entrepreneur and founder of BioNTech, which helped develop one of the major vaccines against COVID-19. His main fields of research are cancer research and immunology. His main fields of research are cancer research and immunology. He has been Professor of Experimental Oncology at the III Medical Clinic of the University of Mainz since 2006, and chairman of the board and CEO of BioNTech SE since 2008, a company that he co-founded with his wife, Özlem Türeci. Şahin is considered one of the leading COVID-19 vaccine developers.[4] In 2020, Şahin and Türeci became the first Germans with Turkish roots among Germany's top 100 wealthiest people list.[5]
Sahin's family, originally from Turkey, moved to Germany when he was four years old. He grew up in Cologne and studied medicine at the University of Cologne, completing a PhD there in cancer immunotherapy. He initially remained in academia, conducting research at university hospitals in Saarland and Zurich and eventually founding a research group at the University of Mainz in 2000, where he became a professor of experimental oncology in 2006. In 2001, while maintaining his position at the university, he began to engage in entrepreneurial activities, co-founding two pharmaceutical companies with his partner Özlem Türeci, who is also a leading immunologist, in 2001 and 2008. The second of these companies, BioNTech, developed one of the major vaccines used to fight the COVID-19 pandemic together with Pfizer Inc in 2020. As a result of the company's increase in value, Şahin and Türeci became the first Germans with Turkish roots among Germany's top 100 wealthiest people list.

I hope this moves the debate forward. As is the point of the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, please improve upon it (or remove it) as you find necessary (I think especially the first lead paragraph looks a little too short now), but I'd caution against adding too much detail. The lead is intended to highlight the major points of Şahin's career and public significance, not replace or reproduce the "Life" section. --Tserton (talk) 12:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Mr.Uğur ŞAHİN, in a joint statement with the Turkish Minister of Health on the Turkish news channel CNN Türk, said, "..I am very happy as a Turk." By saying, I think he concluded this discussion. 31.223.8.16 (talk) 22:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I would also like to point out Charles Pfizers wikipedia page strictly says "German-American" In the lead. Like the person above me, a lot of sources including the couple themselves calls them turkish-german. To be honest I don't understand the stubbornness here . Oyond (talk) 16:53, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for contributing to the discussion rather than just participating in the long-running edit war — it's hard to engage with the substance of the dispute without editors explaining themselves. My reasoning for not including "Turkish" in the first sentence is this: most demonyms (like German, Turkish, French etc.) have two distinct (if often overlapping) meanings. One is the ethnicity (like how many 5th+ generation Americans often identify as "German" or "Irish" in a cultural or familial sense). The other is the citizenship. Şahin is Turkish by ethnicity and German by citizenship; I don't think anyone is disputing either of those things. As others have noted, he even self-identifies as an ethnic Turk. But it's his citizenship that's of primary interest for biographies on Wikipedia, not his ethnicity. And even though Şahin's ethnicity is a big deal in some media, he's famous primarily for his science and his role in developing the COVID vaccine, not for his ethnicity. Charles Pfizer moved to the US as an adult, so he was shaped by Germany much, much more than Şahin was shaped by Turkey. But I'd avoid relying too much on counter-examples for disputes like this: you can find a million examples for both sides. Some instances: Helene Fischer, Lukas Podolski, Miroslav Klose, Katherine Tai, Andrew Cherng, Eric Feigl-Ding...we both could go on and on. I'm going to (respectfully) revert your bold edit. I would be open to changing it to "Turkish-born German" as a compromise (although that option got a lot of pushback in the discussion above as well). --Tserton (talk) 02:31, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. If Charles did kept his German citizenship than what you said make sense. I value consistency to be honest. With this logic any inventor from USA with Jewish background should be identified as strictly American in the Lead. Afterall there was no Israeli citizenship prior to Israel Arab war. I looked at few examples and yes most are. By the way I am half turk(kazak) half kurdish and my father side does have relatives in duseldolf. First and Second generation Turkish immigrants in Germany actually are very Turkish due to segmentation policies implemented back in the 1960's. They are not Germanized at all. Think of it like how Americans implemented getto policies with blacks. So him living in Germany does not necessarily make him less Turkish and unworthy of mentioning in the lead. But like you said citizenship does. Have a wonderful day I wish all discussion I had in wikipedia was like this :) Oyond (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

In Germany, when people ask me where I come from, I say I'm from Berlin. They say "where are you originally from". I say Turkey. "So you are Turkish" response comes. Next year I'll get German citizenship and I have to leave my Turkish citizenship. That will not make me German in Germany. Ethnicity is important in Germany. Citizenship is not important. That is German mindset. Now when it comes to Uğur Şahin, suddenly he becomes German. That racist mindset is abusing Wikipedia sadly.

I though that discussion was over after Mohammed Ali's famous words. Ozselgin (talk) 17:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Per MOS:Etnicity “ Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability”

I don’t think neither his German citizenship or Turkish roots have to do with his notability. Therefore ethnicity should be removed from the lead. Roguehider (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Quoting Wikipedia legalese is useful only to a point, but if we're going to do so, you forgot to include the immediately preceding guideline from WP:ETHNICITY: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." This is long-settled policy: ethnicity is generally not relevant for the lead; citizenship (again, generally) is — irrespective of what might anecdotally be considered "important" in Germany. --Tserton (talk) 09:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Expansion

Since the second revision of November 9, the article has been marked as "in the process of an expansion or major restructuring," but still classified as a stub. In order to help, I have provided a translation of the German Wikipedia article, while adding proper disclosure of my COI on my user page, this talk page, and the page itself. I hope this appropriate, and I will refrain from any further large edits here. Independent community feedback is highly appreciated. Thanks, J at BioNTech (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Arabic Alevi - Alewi

He is an arabic Alawi. He belongs to the same Religion that the Assads in Syria belongs to.

His wife is a Christian. When she was six years old, she wanted to become an nun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:D73C:BA71:21EC:5FAA:5006:C6A9 (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

That's untrue, Türeci is a muslim. see sources. Grimes2 (talk) 10:46, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

These informations are not correct. There are no Arabic settlements in Palas, Hatay. Please stop writing without sources.

Migration

Turkish emigrant to Germany describes him better than German of Turkish descent. Using both categories on the same person is misleading. His children are properly described as "of Turkish descent". I am a British person of German descent. My father was a German immigrant. Rathfelder (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

You will need to get a consensus on changing the first sentence in the article then: "Uğur Şahin ([uːɾ ʃaː.hin]; born September 29, 1965) is a Turkish-born German oncologist and entrepreneur and co-founder of BioNTech who helped develop one of the major vaccines against COVID-19.[1][2] ". That's why German of Turkish descent category makes sense.

You are also being contradictory. If he's a Turkish emigrant, he should also be described as Turkish physician etc. Bogazicili (talk) 17:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Research

I have just added some details about his research work. If they are not appropriate here, please revert the edit. Independent review is highly appreciated. Thanks, J at BioNTech (talk) 13:22, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Alevi

Ugur Sahin never once mentioned that he is Alevi - Only that he is of turkish background - The Alevis in Iskenderun are mostly arabic speaking Nusayri/Alawites - He is from Payas, Hatay which has only Sunni Turkish settlements(not even Sunni Arabs). People made false assumptions without real investigation that he is alevi in social media. Pleaes give serious sources which backs this (interviews with relatives/researches). His mother is from Iskenderun, and has Cretan Turk ancestry as mentioned.

    Nope , you are wrong. 
    Resource :https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000122601040/migration-und-qualifikation

Beide sind deutsche Staatsbürger mit türkischem Hintergrund, er wurde in İskenderun in der Südosttürkei geboren, sie in Niedersachsen (wobei die Familie von Şahin einer religiösen Minderheit, den Aleviten, angehört). An sich arbeiten beide an einer individualisierten Krebstherapie, deren Prinzip jenem des Impfstoffes ähnelt. Ein Durchbruch hier würde die beiden überhaupt auf den wissenschaftlichen Olymp führen.

So viel zum Thema "Migrationshintergrund". (Hans Rauscher, 18.12.2020)

Both are German citizens with a Turkish background, he was born in İskenderun in south-eastern Turkey, she in Lower Saxony (where the Şahin family belongs to a religious minority, the Alevis). Both are working on an individualized cancer therapy, the principle of which is similar to that of the vaccine. A breakthrough here would lead both of them to the scientific Olympus.

So much for the topic of "migration background". (Hans Rauscher, December 18, 2020)

The FACT is that he never mentions that he belongs to the Alawis - it's random claim that Hans Rauscher made. He propably saw it being thrown around in social media. There are NO alevi settlements in Payas, Hatay — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atabegli (talk • contribs) 17:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

We should make it clear that this is speculation, because there is no official quote by Sahin. In Philipp Ther's article published in Die Zeit see here he says that Sahin has not confirmed being an Alevi and that this is speculation on Turkish media:

Ob Şahins Vorfahren Aleviten waren, wollte er auf Anfrage nicht bestätigen. Türkische Social-Media-Foren behaupten das jedenfalls, ...[7] and [8]

It goes on to point out that even photos of a family were falsely used claiming that it was his family. Sseevv (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

"Overly detailed" Research section

I disagree with the "Overly detailed" template over the Research section.

The amount of detail in Wikipedia is judged by WP:WEIGHT, which is defined as "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Şahin's research has received a lot of coverage not only in the scientific literature but also in the popular press. The fact that they're fighting a disease that has killed 5 million people should count for something in deciding the approprate amount of detail.

I personally found this summary of his research very useful, and I can't see anything that I would delete. These Wikipedia science articles are not only read by the general public, but also by scientists who use Wikipedia to brush up on content outside their specialty. There are readers who don't know what mRNA and uridine are, but to those of us who do, this research is really important. We're writing for the general public, but not the lowest common denominator. Are we supposed to cut our articles off at the 12th grade level?

I thought the section which described how "The RNA vaccine used for tolerance induction contained 1-methylpseudouridine (m1Ψ) instead of uridine," and how it doesn't stimulate Toll-like receptors, was pretty important, and its results with multiple sclerosis even more important.

Writing about a scientist, without describing his work, is Hamlet without Hamlet.

If someone does want to edit it down, I would propose that they write a draft and let us look at it. It's hard to edit material like this without cutting out the essential science. --Nbauman (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2021

He is from Kurdish-Alavi from the city of Iskenderun in south east turkey.

He is from Kurdish-Alavi from the city of Iskenderun in south east turkey. 2A00:1FA1:8455:9C07:A89C:CD2B:39AE:41CC (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

He is from Kurdish-Alavi from the city of Iskenderun in south east turkey.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello

He is from a KURDISH-Alavi family, Not Turkish as there are a group referred to Kurdish-Alavisim. 2A00:1FA1:8455:9C07:A89C:CD2B:39AE:41CC (talk) 19:30, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Please check the references

The literature quoted here is not correct. Doi link is not correct, but even if you retranslate %2F it leads to another essay. Please fix it! --Platonykiss (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

unsourced claim that he is against mandatory vaccination

Jimmy Wales himself has said that unsourced material should be deleted from articles of living persons. A claim by the person of a fact, is a "primary source" and therefore constitutes original research, and is not a verifyable fact. This has no place on Wikipedia. It's fine to state it as a fact that the person claims it, but it's not fine to state it as fact itself. Rebroad (talk) 18:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Döpfner: Although you make a living from vaccines, you have explicitly opposed compulsory vaccination. Is that too unfree for you? Sahin: Yes. Everyone has to decide that for themselves. But we must create transparency so that everyone can decide for themselves.[9] Doesn't get much more explicit than that. The sourcing is better now than it was before. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I think Rebroad's argument is that subjects words about themselves are WP: PRIMARY. But I think that is a misunderstanding about the reference. It's not published by the subject nor written by them, and instead is a third parties description of his answers. Therefore it's not primary in anyway. LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmission∆ °co-ords° 18:56, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article. We can use something an article subject has written or said about themselves, and it's often the best source for exactly what a BLP subject believes or thinks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Citizenship in the lead

Shadow4dark made a revert citing MOS:CONTEXTBIO, which says:

In cases of public or relevant dual citizenship, or a career that spans a subject's emigration, the use of the word and reduces ambiguity.

• Arnold Schwarzenegger (born July 30, 1947) is an Austrian and American actor, film producer, businessman, retired professional bodybuilder and politician

I'd say Uğur Şahin's Turkish citizenship is also relevant since he is one of the richest Turkish citizens. Bogazicili (talk) 11:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

But his career didn't span his emigration. (Schwarzenegger's did – he started his bodybuilding career in Austria and moved to the U.S. as an adult.) And there are a ton of billionaires with secondary citizenships who are among the wealthiest people with that citizenship, but we don't list Elon Musk as Canadian (occasional edit wars notwithstanding), Peter Thiel as a New Zealander, or Jensen Huang as Taiwanese. --Tserton (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

There is an "or" in the quoted text above, not an "and". So his career doesn't need to span both countries. For your examples:

1) For Elon Musk, there is no mention of citizenship in first paragraph. It doesn't say "American businessman"

2) For Peter Thiel, it says "German-American"

3) For Jensen Huang, we do not know if he is currently a citizen of Taiwan. Taiwan is also recognized as part of China.

Uğur Şahin's Turkish citizenship is both public [10] (SCHEDULE 13G "a matter of public record" [11]) and notable [12] [13] [14] Bogazicili (talk) 06:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Unlike Arnold Schwarzenegger he has no career in Turkey and has further no relevance with Turkey. As per MOS CONTEXTBIO we should keep only the German one as the Turkish citizenship is sufficient mentioned in infobox. Shadow4dark (talk) 13:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The debate around Musk's identification was primarily around South African vs American (the fact that neither are mentioned in the lead sentence is a result of extensive debate, which you can find in the talk page archives.) It was his Canadian citizenship I was using as an example of a citizenship that most people would agree he is not primarily identifiable with. Same with Thiel – I was referring to his New Zealand citizenship (although it's true it doesn't make much sense for Wikipedia to identify him as German-American, given his scant ties to Germany). Rich people simply often happen to have more than one nationality, both because immigrants and their children are overrepresented among entrepreneurs and because money can buy passports. That doesn't necessarily mean those ancillary citizenships are part of the 'identity' of the person. And I don't want to get into an arcane debate about sources regarding Huang, but regarding Taiwan: Wikipedia considers Taiwan an independent country (again, see the archives, for example this RfC). Tserton (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tserton: including his Turkish citizenship in the opening sentence is perfectly ok with respect to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Moreover, Şahin seems to self-identify as someone from Turkey:

Since then, Dr. Sahin, who is Turkish, has developed a friendship with Albert Bourla, the Greek chief executive of Pfizer. The pair said in recent interviews that they had bonded over their shared backgrounds as scientists and immigrants. “We realized that he is from Greece, and that I’m from Turkey,” Dr. Sahin said, without mentioning their native countries’ long-running antagonism. “It was very personal from the very beginning.” ... In Germany, where immigration continues to be a fractious issue, the success of two scientists of Turkish descent was cause for celebration." The New York Times

This form [15] also seems like it was filled personally by Şahin. He didn't put "Germany" into the citizenship field. So the unreasonable stubbornness to exclude his Turkish citizenship in the opening sentence seem contrary to Uğur Şahin's personal preference.

Uğur Şahin also refers to himself as a "Turk" ("Türk olarak çok mutlu oldum" [16]; "Türkiye'nin aşı kampanyasının etkinliği de öven Şahin bir Türk olarak mutluluk duyduğunu ifade etti ve kampanya kapsamında daha fazla kişiyi aşı olmaya davet etti" [17]) Bogazicili (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I suggesting we should do a RFC, similar as this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hamdi_Ulukaya#RFC:_Lede_sentence Shadow4dark (talk) 08:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)