User talk:Agljones

Welcome!

This user is a member of the Motorcycling WikiProject, a WikiProject which aims to develop and expand Wikipedia's coverage of motorcycles and motorcycling. Please feel free to join us.

Hello, Agljones, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Seasalt 06:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Archives (index)

Archive 1
Archive 2

Quoting Sources

I have been filling in TT Races from 1939 back, and have used your description for the 1935 Isle of Man TT, but would like to cite the source or sources for the information, as per Wikipedia:Citing_sources. I have had a few "citation needed" notices for my own contributions, so was hoping to fill in the blanks. 1935 to 1939 are done, if you want to add anything to them? Seasalt 06:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct Agljones, H G Tyrrel Smith was an Irish motorcycle racer. Found it in some German race results. Thank you for the 1935 sources. This H G Tyrrel Smith was quite a winner, but have not found anything biographical on the net. I do not know the IOM course, so could not comment on the shortcomings or otherwise. I just fill in what info can be found with Google. Feel free to fill in or correct the details. Seasalt 14:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)Seasalt 14:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good info! Everything I could find is here- User:Seasalt/Vincent Seasalt 13:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Seasalt 13:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Put up H G Tyrell Smith. Did 1932 Isle of Man TT and 1931 Isle of Man TT results, without preambles. Feel free. Good to see 1933 & 1934. Seasalt 11:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Copied from Talk:Isle of Man TT

"Conflict of Interest tagging and disruptive editing"

I have tagged this article as Conflict of Interest.

I first suspected editor Agljones of CoI editing following repeated deletions of my fair, accurate and reliably-sourced contributions during May/June 2014, when I wrote the following edit-summary into the history purposely for future use: rvt with clarification, deletion of prose + 3 sources by IOM resident appears partisan non-neutral COI
Agljones spuriously asserted that the Isle of Man TT races were not, actually, races at all but time-trials, therefore could not be considered as the world's most dangerous race. The world's most dangerous race was stated to be the Paris-Dakar endurance event: Dakar Rally is statistically consider most dangerous race (approx 1.9 deaths per event including large number of spectators/race officials
Agljones continued to delete good prose and references throughout 2014 into 2015, causing me to abandon the articles and remove from my watchlist to avoid the appearance of edit-warring
Agljones was unequivocally identified as a CoI editor in June/July of 2015
Agljones was noted to have self-identified when uploading many images to Wikipedia
Agljones was requested to make a CoI declaration, which was not complied with (2015)
Agljones was then requested not to make changes to any Isle of Man or TT race articles which was not complied with (2015)
Agljones has exhibited historic ownership of Isle of Man and TT race type articles
Agljones has a long history of edit-warring, disruptive editing, and initiating spurious sequences such as Articles for Deletion, Administrator Noticeboard Incidents, and two approaches to the Teahouse, a facility intended to provide guidance for new users
Agljones has user registrations from 2006 and 2008
Agljones' talk page has been disguised with massive deletions followed by archiving of the remnants
Agljones is a historically a single purpose editor but has recently taken to ramping-up edit-count with many minor maintenance changes, contrary to past tradition
Agljones is continuing with battleground editing at several articles/talk pages during January to March 2017, including, as before, deletion of good, referenced prose, having historic sources written by industry experts
In accordance with Wikipedia Conflict of Information policies, Agljones should not attempt to make any further changes to the topic(s) indicated and allow non-conflicted editors to contribute without interference, and should cease all disruptive editing at any other Wikipedia location, eg, talk pages, Articles for Deletion and incident noticeboards, etc.
This is just a brief summary to conform with Wikipedia requirements and to observe the required degree of secrecy that Wikipedia affords to Conflict of Interest editors who fail to declare their involvements.
I am satisfied that Agljones has at least two serious Conflicts of Interest that would normally prevent participation in the topic areas, but as Agljones is defiant we may never know the true extent.
This notice can be considered as a warning.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 05:26, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Rocknrollmancer, I urge you to be more careful with your accusations. First of all, this laundry list really does not belong on the article talk page: you are talking about user behavior more than the article. Second, I have looked over the list and, as long as it is and as many accusations as it contains, it is remarkably short on evidence. For instance, where is the evidence that "Agljones was unequivocally identified as a CoI editor in June/July of 2015"? Nor do I see evidence that Agljones is an SPA from the get-go, though it is clear that they have a hobby horse. I see no evidence that they are somehow whitewashing anything (like in that series of back and forths over which race is the most dangerous); that you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're a paid editor. The only bad mark on their record that I can see is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Agljones/Archive, obviously, but that was years ago.
In other words, if you cannot produce solid evidence that there's something fishy here, you should drop this topic, lest you fall into HOUNDING territory, which is a kind of harassment. It may well be that some of Agljones's edits are problematic--discuss them, without making these kinds of accusations. If the edits are indeed bad, there are ways to handle that, including dispute resolution. I'll also ping Doncram, who has some history here, as well as Callanecc and Salvidrim! (for the socking--this merely a pro forma notification which they are free to ignore).
However, Agljones, not all is equally well. For now I will bypass the hobby horse, that is the enormous proliferation of Isle of Man related articles (every curve needs an article???), and will merely point at what seems to be some troubling comments made earlier, particularly in this version of the talk page. (Rocknrollmancer, don't give me that stuff about "disguising" stuff on a talk page--users are perfectly entitled to remove conversations.) It seems to me that the verbosity and the legalese do not contribute to a healthy editing atmosphere; Boing! said Zebedee mentioned the verbosity earlier, and Yngvadottir remarked on how the main point got lost completely. Let me add, then, that stuff like this really means nothing, and that making legal threats is not a productive way of participating in our community. Thank you both. Drmies (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Kerrowmoar for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Kerrowmoar is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kerrowmoar until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Drmies (talk) 03:15, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requests

After due consideration and recent misuse, I request editors not to make any further requests for information. I may reply to some historic or general editing request on this talk;page.

I request editors to note the following;-

Please in the first instance refer to the relevant talk:page to show consideration to other editors.

Editors that have previously been requested not to make postings or make any further requests for information should continue not to edit this talk:page.

Any further COI request should be referred by email to functionaries-en@lists.wikimedia.org.

Agljones 19:28, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MfD nomination of Portal:Isle of Man TT

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Image without license

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Manx Electric Railway

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License problems

Hi Agljones,

In several of your uploads, you asserted a license of things like "bfugguihgsck(@0gshcqokfsbojdcl&u£n*?ehzxt!". That's obviously not a constructive way to contribute here. Please adjust this one and check your others to make sure we can audit licensing properly. DMacks (talk) 17:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, File:KG IMG P0003971.jpg is a photograph of (apparently) some museum display. Part of our image policy requires that you state details about that itself (for example, where it is), not just that you took a picture of it. See WP:Derivative works for the license reasoning. DMacks (talk) 17:50, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Isle of Man TT results

I saw you removed the riders first names from 1907 Isle of Man TT article and 1908. Wondering the reason behind that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:5902:3727:2BBD:3FEA (talk) 06:58, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The burden of proof lies with any editor adding or restoring information has to provide an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. The original results show only the initials or sometimes the full name and have been restored to the details in quoted references.

Recent additional information by editor 107.133.4.147 has not been supported by additional inline citations. For example, the engine capacities are not stated in the quoted sources or the original race programme and may be seen by other editors as original research. The inclusion of names by editor 107.133.4.147 may suggest that the information is derived from unsourced material and composite WP:COPYVIO material from unquoted self published official websites WP:QS WP:NOTRELIABLE which may quote Wikipedia as a source. (Agljones)16:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended content

Official TT results site has all these riders first names listed. You made a mistake so revert it back. thx. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:A1D4:D968:3ADB:F6B0 (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia requires that an inline citation is required for any editor that directly supports the contribution WP:V. Additional material by editor User:107.133.4.147 for the Isle of Man TT race results for the period 1907-1925 often does not include an inline citation. The sources quoted in the 1907 race result article including the Official race programme only display the competitor initials and occasionally the full name.

This was a common practice at the time for sports results in the British Isles at that time which lasted until at least the 1950's. The reason for this is that names with only initials were listed as professional or competitors with a trade. Names listed in full were either "amateur" or "gentlemen" such as Capt R Arbuthnot, placed in third place in the 1908 results. This distinction can also be found in other sports results for cricket and rugby matches. Race results may be considered by editors as primary sources WP:PRIMARY. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation and it may be incorrect to evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source (including names and initials) without a secondary source.

Information in citations for articles has to be not only to be verifiable, but also reliable. The "Official" website is not considered by editors to be reliable as it is a self published official website WP:QS WP:NOTRELIABLE. Sources that "mirror" or summarise current or previous Wikipedia content are also not considered to reliable as the "Official" website mirrors Wikipedia content. This may also create the issue of Circular reporting which is to be avoided.

The "Official" website does not quote the race results in full and also the average speed times are incorrect as the actual race distance is 158 miles 220 yards. This is due to the start-line and finishing-line being located in different positions. This issues about sources may now be taken to the correct talk page. (Agljones)09:34, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So you won't spell out Charlie Collier the race winner in results table but its ok in infobox?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.133.4.147 (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In general, as an editor courtesy and general consensus that editors should not hat comments and any new additional comments should be placed at the bottom of any current discussion. The editor 107.133.4.147 should not hat comments on talk:pages WP:HAT and talk page behaviour can be found here;- Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines.

The info box was added by the editor 107.133.4.147 with this edit [2] of the 23 April 2020. It is unclear if the editor 107.133.4.147 is referring to any specific Wikipedia policy or guideline WP:MOS, WP:POINT. Paragraph three of the article refers to "Charles R. Collier" from this original edit [3] of the 23rd November 2006.

The initial enquiry from 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:5902:3727:2BBD:3FEA referred to the race results and the original style of names and initials restored to reflect the source which is quoted as page 3 of the Isle of Man Times and General Advertiser for Friday 1st June 1907. The "Official" results page may be considered by other contributors as not being reliable WP:V, in this network of articles as composite WP:COPYVIO material from an unquoted self published official websites WP:QS WP:NOTRELIABLE that mirrors Wikipedia content.

Editors may not be aware that additional information and details added to the "Official results" website has been added by unpaid volunteers in the last few years and may not always be correct (eg average race speed). Specific Wikipedia policy is that other editors may consider the results as a primary source and adding further information such as engine size or even average race speed may be considered as Original Research WP:OR. These issues may be now discussed on the articles talk:page as appropriate.(Agljones)09:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm referring to your edit. why Charlie Collier's full name can't be spelled out in results table was the question. thx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:A535:4629:87B7:14D1 (talk) 01:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of providing inline citations for race results can be complicated. As mentioned previously, any editor adding or restoring material has to provided an inline citation. The information in the inline citation has to support the material directly, verifiable and also has to be reliable. Any material that does not meet this criteria may be challenged and removed.

The inline citation for the race results only lists the initials for the race winner and also most of the other competitors. This was a common practice at the time for sporting results which demonstrated the 'class' difference between "gentlemen" and "trade." Some editors may find that showing this difference in the race results as having encyclopaedic value as the early history of the Isle of Man TT races was dominated by "amateur" racers and "gentlemen," becoming more professional in the 1920's.

The "Official" TT results may contain some of the competitors names and may not considered as being reliable by editors as it is self-published website which mirrors Wikipedia. Actually, some editors would not consider the inline citation from the Isle of Man Times as being reliable. The race results form the publication The Motor Cycle also only lists winners initials and may not be considered by editors as being reliable as it is a partisan source. Combining the "Official" results with the inline citations in the source may be considered as Original Research WP:OR.

Returning to the comments by editor 107.133.4.147, the name C.R. Collier actually appears in this format with the initials in may recent publications as race winner and perhaps the info box needs to be changed to reflect this. In regard to the same editor 107.133.4.147 adding full names to the 1920 results, the fourth place finisher in the 350cc Junior TT race appears to have been always referred to by his initials of "R.O." during his racing career. The name "Ronald" only appears in newspaper articles in the 1950's and only added to the Official' race results incorrectly by unpaid volunteers. In the results from 1907 onwards, a distinction needs to be made between F.W. Applebee, known as "Pa" and F. Applebee junior, C. Williams from E. Williams and C.R. Collier from H.A. Collier.

The editor 107.133.4.147 and editor 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:5902:3727:2BBD:3FEA may need to being these issues to the relevant talk:page for discussion. Issues of reliable sources can be found at this notice board Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and requests for sources can be made at this noticeboard Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. This may require the editors to adopt a formal login name. (Agljones)10:57, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point about different sources, whats reliable whats not. Cross reference and all that. Sometimes finishing times are different or whatever the case might be. Mistakes were made even then. Or for example when a rider used an alias, like one french rider who always rode under the name of "Grizzly". I don't have a problem if he still gets listed in results as "Grizzly". Thats the name the man took and i respect that. But leaving out the first names of riders, specially as famous as Charlie who has a page here in wiki. I dont think its right way to go, even if it goes against the format back in the day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:C24:244:677F:2B20 (talk) 01:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The competitors name is linked in the results and it is unclear what the point is for Wikipedia editors. Publications as recent as 2019 list the winners: by initials. The editor 107.133.4.147 may need to start an appropriate discussion on the results page and login in to Wikipeida as using an IP address to edit may be seen as being disruptive WP:POINT.

From this Isle of Man TT results talk:page discussion there may be enough evidence to proceed with a Sockpupperty enquiry in respect to editor 107.133.4.147 which may result in the editor being blocked. (Agljones)09:19, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My point has been from the beginning that you revert your edit and list riders full names in the results. still unclear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:513C:3B17:E026:2B5B (talk) 08:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed in full that inline citation are required to full support the addition or reverting of material. The sources have to be reliable and the "Official" results site is a self published official websites WP:QS WP:NOTRELIABLE with copyright issues WP:COPYVIO to consider. The "Official" website is not considered reliable by most editors.

The issue here is with editor 107.133.4.147 adding material to the results pages 1907-1925 and not including inline citations. The source "Motor Cycling" for the 1907 results only refers to the winner by the initials in the article and the results. As results may be considered as primary sources by some editors a further source is required to demonstrate that C.R Collier is actually Charlie R Collier or Charles Richard Collier. The use of other motor-cycling racing sources may not be considered as reliable for an inline citation as being partisan. The Harris (1989) publication (TT. Motocourse History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Races 1907-1989) incorrectly quotes H.A. Collier as having the same initials as his father, the founder of Matchless motor-cycles.

Issues of any editor behaviour may be taken to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. The editor 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:513C:3B17:E026:2B5B has repeatedly made attempts to bypass the IP address system and not signed or dated edits. Along with editor 107.133.4.147, there may be enough evidence to proceed with a Sockpupperty enquiry WP:BOOMERANG.

The issue has been discussed in full and is now formally closed and contributor 2600:1700:BEB0:5300:513C:3B17:E026:2B5B should not make any further comments on this talk:page. Any further comment should be made at this talk page and request editors to comment as the winners name is linked to the correct Wikipedia page. (Agljones)19:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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