Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pala Tibetan War

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 04:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pala Tibetan War

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To begin with, there are no reliable sources that mention a war between the Pala dynasty of Bengal and the Tibetans. Neither has any historian referred to it as the "Pala Tibetan War" nor have they mentioned such a conflict in any way.
The background section of the article fails to address the relationship between the Palas and Tibetans. Additionally, the WP:SYNTH has been consistently disregarded throughout the entire article, including the background section. Moreover, sources have been presented suggesting the submission of the Pala ruler to the Tibetans, but there is also a source provided that contradicts this claim.
The section "Dharmapala's Conflict with Tibetans" doesn't actually discuss the conflict between the Palas and Tibetans; rather, it focuses on Dharmapala's victory against the Nepalese forces. This marks the first instance of major synthesis of sources in the article. The background section deliberately states that Nepal was under Tibetan suzerainty. Therefore, the editor synthesized that the conflict between Nepal and the Palas was distorted into the "Pala Tibetan War," which is nonsensical as it combines two distinct contexts. For instance, if one source states that "X is a vassal of Y," and another source mentions that an entity called "Z successfully campaigns against X", an original research is conducted, leading to the conclusion that "Z defeated Y", despite Y's lack of involvement.
The pattern continues in the section "Devapala's Conflict with Tibetans," where synthesis of sources occurs, often with poorly sourced content, including reliance on primary records. Similar to Dharmapala, Devapala is depicted as engaging in a war with the Nepalese, which is then distorted into a conflict with the Tibetans. The article contains sparse and scattered information, especially if we disregard the synthesis part, where the context is barely mentioned in the sources and consists of scattered lines, primarily based on Pala dynasty's primary records. Moreover, none of the Tibetan or Chinese records mention any conflict between the Tibetans and the Pala dynasty. Fails WP:GNG, and the article is completely built on WP:OR, including the title. Imperial ^[AFCND] 07:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Imperial ^[AFCND] 07:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Imperial ^[AFCND] 07:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have misunderstood the article. There are reliable and contemporary sources that point to a conflict between the Palas and Tibetans. Tibetan records specifically mention a war with the Pala Empire. The Pala records also mention conflicts with Tibetans. Furthermore, Dharmapāla's contemporaneous records indicate that he seized the throne of Nepal from the Tibetan Empire. Even the Nepali tradition states that Dharmapāla had subjugated Nepal. The conflict between Dharmapāla and Tibetans is supported by Devapāla's inscriptions.
The same sources mention the submission of Palas and exaggeration of Tibetans. The sources cited, which state that the Pala Empire was subjugated by the Tibetans, tells that Tibetan claims are exaggerated as they lack proof, so there is no contradiction with WP:SYNTH.
Still, it is incongruent with the Tibetans as the Palas conquered Nepal from the Tibetan Empire. However, if this is the sole flaw in the article, it can be resolved by altering the title to 'Pala-Nepalese conflict'. Thus, I request that instead of discarding the article, the title be changed to 'Pala-Nepalese war'.

Based Kashmiri (talk) 09:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would recommend reading WP:SYNTH. "Contradiction with WP:SYNTH"? Coming to first point, none of the sources cited here, directs to a Tibetan source, and even lacks scattered lines in 21st century, from both sides. Seizing the throne from Nepal neither mentioned in the article. However, even if it is present in WP:RS, that gives noone the right display that as "Pala Tibetan War". The second point doesn't make any sense to me. The third point actually points out how the article entirely fails. It cannot be changed as "Pala–Nepalese War", as the attempt to show Tibetians as belligerents have failed here. I am sorry, but WP:MILHIST articles doesn't suit for you as two of such articles created by you, this and Draft:Pala invasion of Sindh, both are miserably made upon original research. Now, the suggestion to move it to "Pala–Nepalese War", I would oppose it because it too fails WP:GNG, with some scattered lines mentioned in some sources. As it is already covered in the article of Dharmapala and Devapala, there is no need for a seperate article. Imperial ^[AFCND] 09:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed some issues in the article, but I still request for the article to be moved into the draft space instead of deleting it. Allow time and space for its improvement until it is ready for main space. Based Kashmiri (talk) 14:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Nepal and India. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 13:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like what the article is saying is:

Dharampala of Pala dynasty may have conquered Nepal.
But Nepal was likely under Tibet's control around that time.
So, there must have been a war that won the Palas Nepal from the Tibetans.

I am seeing too many ifs, buts and maybes. But is that what the article is saying? If so, exactly which of those premises are we reasonably sure of? Does the conclusion follow? And isn't the conclusion too weak anyway to present at "Pala-Tibet war" as though it were fact? Looks to me like the author is conjecturing the existence of a war based on circumstantial evidence. That's no way to write a Wikipedia article. There are other ways to gain territory. If you have a big enough force, you may walk in unopposed. The previous occupying force may have withdrawn before the next conquerors got there. There may have been dialogue and treaty to cede control in exchange of something else. Assuming, Nepal was even under Tibetan control, and assuming Nepal was even conquered by the Palas. Please tell me we are basing our article on better evidence than that, ideally providing freely accessible sources to support your argument. Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The author in the above comment says that The Palas conquered Nepal from the Tibetan Empire. However, none of the cited sources support this claim. Some sources suggest that Nepal was under the suzerainty of Tibet, while others indicate that Nepal was conquered by the Palas. Therefore, the author fabricated a narrative by the synthesis of these sources and invented a non-existent conflict known as the "Pala Tibetan War." Imperial ^[AFCND] 01:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The author in the above comment says that The Palas conquered Nepal from the Tibetan Empire. However, none of the cited sources support this claim." ??

The statement that Nepal was not under Tibetan rule is not supported by any sources cited. Specifically, the fifth, sixth, seventh, and ninth sources cited suggest that Nepal was indeed under Tibetan control and was subsequently conquered by the Pala Empire. Additionally, there are no sources indicating that Nepal was not under Tibetan rule when palas conquered them.
The Pala Empire fought not only in Nepal and the Himalayas, but also in Kedara, Gokarna, and Northern Bengal [Mentioned in the article with Reliable Sources]. This is enough to showcase the Pala Tibetan Wars or the Pala Tibetan Conflicts.

Based Kashmiri (talk) 18:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear, combining two sources to make a conclusion, thats what you did, and we call it WP:SYNTH, which is not allowed here. Imperial ^[AFCND] 18:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well I guess you don't know what WP:SYNTH is, do you? The article does not solely focus on the conquest of Nepal by the Palas against the Tibetans. It also covers the conflicts and clashes between the Pala Empire and the Tibetan Empire in Nepal, the Himalayas, Kedara, Gokarna, and Northern Bengal. The previous sentence was a bit blunt, but you seems to be focused on only Nepal ignoring everything else in the article

It would be better to provide a more inclusive perspective on the topic and be more open to different points of view. Good luck trying to find a logical and valid reason to remove the article, Thanks. Based Kashmiri (talk) 19:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, you stated that the article was solely focused on Palas conquering Nepal, and you claimed that no source mentioned that Nepal was part of the Tibetan Empire, however, every source discussing that topic indicates that Nepal was indeed under the control of the Tibetans.
The fact that you have only been focusing on Nepal is evident, as you stated that the article was solely concerned with the conquests of that particular territory. However, considering that the article also covers their battles in the Himalayas, Kedara, Gokarna, and Northern Bengal and their overall conflict with the Tibetans, it's enough for the title to be "Pala Tibetan Wars" or "Pala Tibetan Conflicts."
You have also wrongfully accused the article of violating Wikipedia's policy on synthesis content, which it does not. I'm inclined to believe that you either do not comprehend what that policy entails or are merely using it as a false pretense to have the article removed.

You're welcome. And I urge you to PLEASE familiarize yourself with the definition of WP:SYNTH before claiming that this article contains synthesized material :) Based Kashmiri (talk) 10:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please pinpoint a source for me that talks about the Pala-Tibetan wars/conflicts? Please quote the relevant material if the source is not freely accessible online. If we don't actually have details about the war/s, then the material is better convered in discussions of the extent of the Pala domain or the same under a particular ruler. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 11:15, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are reliable sources provided in the background section, and Dharmapāla's conflict with Tibetans and Devapāla's conflict with Tibetans. Here is one of them:

The ancestors of these 'Niwads' (Nimars), while living in Nimar of Central India, seem to have been hired as mercenaries to fight with Tibetan occupation armies either by Dharma Pala (770-815 A.D.) or his famous son King Deva Pala (815-855 A.D.), who had liberated entire Himalaya from the Tibetans. In the opinion of Dr. R.C. Majumdar, King Dharma Pala had already driven away the Tibetans from 'Kira Pradesh' (present day Kangada and Kinnaur of Himanchal Pradesh near Chandra-Bhaga and Nêyar country of Gadhwal). [In Munger Inscription, Deva Pala is credited to have liberated entire Himalayas from the Hunas (Tibetans).] Rahul Sanskrityan on the basis of Chinese historical records, writes that the Tibetans had lost their control in Himalayas during 839-848 A.D. (i.e. during the life time of Deva Pala).

* Source: Ancient Nepal. The Department of Archaeology Number 176. 2005. p. 16 [10th reference in the article] Based Kashmiri (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Devapāla came into conflict with Tibet, there is nothing impossible in this because Tibetan sources claim that their kings Khri-srong-lda-btsan and his son Mu-teg-btsan-po subdued India and forced Räjä Dharma- påla to submit. Devapāla also may have come to clash with them and defeated them.

* Source: 1. Diwakar, R. R. (1958). Bihar through the ages. p. 312.
2. Sinha, Bindeshwari Prasad (1974). Comprehensive History Of Bihar Vol.1; Pt.2. pp. 252–253. Based Kashmiri (talk) 11:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have sources mentioning their conflicts/wars as "Dharmapāla's Conflict with the Tibetans" (Regmi, D. R. (1965). Medieval Nepal: Early medieval period, 750-1350 A.D. Firma K.L. Mukhopadhyay. p. 88.) and "Devapāla's Conflict with the Tibet"(Chowdhury, Abdul Momin (1967). Dynastic History Of Bengal. p. 39.), I think it would be more appropriate to change the title of the article to "Pāla Conflicts with the Tibet".

What do you think about it? Based Kashmiri (talk) 11:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still not notable. If you need something to get added into Wikipedia, add those into the parent articles;if they fails WP:GNG. Imperial ^[AFCND] 12:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. If the sources listed in the discussion above are the best sources we have, there was no such thing as the "Pala Tibetan War", let alone whether it meets WP:GNG. -- asilvering (talk) 03:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There's lots of discussion here, but some concrete !votes are needed.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 02:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

delete The volume of talk here is not a good sign, but in any case, the fact that there's no appeal to a work specifically on this subject is a red flag, as one would expect something of the sort for a notable conflict which supposedly went on for many decades. Mangoe (talk) 02:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - the absence of a source which actually covers the subject says that this is WP:OR. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - OR and SYNTH all around. This is not notable if no one has talked about specifically a conflict between the Tibetans and Palas. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.