Template talk:Episode table

Link Production Code with its page definition

Something like:

[[Production_code_number|Production code number]]: Production code number

--Stdedos (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

We don't link any other info in the headers, and I don't see the need for this to be linked. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Implementing Template:Sronly

Koavf, state your opposition to the edit. -- /Alex/₂₁ 14:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, As I wrote, there was no discussion about this here (or at WT:TV). Additionally, there is no language at MOS:TABLECAPTION saying that non-displaying captions should be default (and, in fact, the example cases are the opposite). ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussions are not necessary for every edit. State your opposition to the edit. Read the template's documentation; the template is completely accessible, and is supported by consensus through the discussion that resulted in the template's creation. -- /Alex/₂₁ 14:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree with Alex. The implementation of the Sronly template allows this template to be fully compliant with MOS:ACCESS regarding captions and screen readers, but will hid the captions for non-screen reading devices when 99% of the time the caption's text is redundant and would not be necessary if it were not to comply with accessibility issues. For example, having an article A Great Show (season 1) and the episode table, coming right after an "Episodes" header, with the caption "A Great Show, season 1 episodes" is highly redundant and does not help a reader beyond it's use for a screen reader (which is great). So with this implementation, the screen reader can have the information it needs to help those readers, while not showing for others. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Favre1fan93, And in other cases, it wouldn't be highly redundant. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:52, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, if you have no further opposition, or no actual policy- or guideline-based reasons to oppose the edit, I'll be restoring it presently. Cheers. -- /Alex/₂₁ 00:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, I do have other objections: you should make this optional, not the default. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:52, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, I didn't say that discussion was necessary: you started the discussion. I also didn't say that a different template lacks consensus. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, you certainly did; you stated there was "no consensus" or discussion, making discussion necessary when you reverted with no policy- or guideline-based reason. For the hidden caption to be optional rather than default, there would need to be more cases where the caption would need to be visible than cases where the caption would not need to be visible. Can you provide proof that there are more of the former case than the latter? -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:05, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, "For the hidden caption to be optional rather than default, there would need to be more cases where the caption would need to be visible than cases where the caption would not need to be visible." Where are you getting this idea? Also, why is it necessary for one option in particular to be more popular for someone to have options? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, are unable to provide such cases?

Also, is there a reason why you decided to revert first, without discussing first? Discussing instead of automatically reverting, was that not part of the conditions for the release of your most recent block for edit-warring? -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, You answered my questions with questions. I reverted per WP:BRD. No, you are not understanding what edit-warring is or why blocks were instituted or evidently how to have a simple discussion with another person. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, no, you didn't. Per WP:BRD-NOT, BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes, and BRD is never a reason for reverting. Unless the reversion is supported by policies, guidelines or common sense, the reversion is not part of BRD cycle.

I'm trying to have a discussion with you. You made a claim. Can you provide such cases to support your claims, or not? If you cannot, then don't make claims you cannot back up. If you cannot, then there was and is no reason to revert. -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:26, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, Common sense is that this should be optional just like it is with standard tables. Enforcing it that it doesn't display with no obvious documentation or ability to change it seems pretty common sense to me. If you want to have a discussion, how about you answer the questions I asked? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, so you realize that you didn't revert per BRD? Answer, then, why you reverted.

If anything, the invisible caption should be default with the option to display the caption, but so far, I've seen no examples of where this would be required, because none have been able to be provided. You're saying that "in other cases, it wouldn't be highly redundant", but have provided nothing to back this up. Why not?

Concerning "no obvious documentation", please don't lie. -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, I am not answering your questions until you answer mine. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:44, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, let it be noted that you refuse to discuss the issue, even when presented with a compromise. Happy editing! -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, Let it be noted that you refuse to discuss the issue. Please don't lie. See also WP:TPECON. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, I started this discussion, and have attempted to get you to provide examples that back up your cases. You have not. You have also not asked any clear questions; you have only reverted with no reason. -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:48, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, Alex, what is unclear about quoting you and then saying, "Where did you get this idea?" Have you discussed in bad faith so long that you've literally forgotten that I wrote: ""For the hidden caption to be optional rather than default, there would need to be more cases where the caption would need to be visible than cases where the caption would not need to be visible." Where are you getting this idea? Also, why is it necessary for one option in particular to be more popular for someone to have options? " and then you ignored it and I asked you to respond over and over again? Note also that I have now provided a policy that you must adhere to regarding how edits to the template's code visually change with template editor privileges. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:49, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, For the hidden caption to be optional rather than default, there would need to be more cases where the caption would need to be visible than cases where the caption would not need to be visible. Because there are far more tables where the visible caption is redundant than cases where there are not, so it should not be visible by default. You're saying that it should be optional to hide the caption than to show it. I provided you a compromise where I said that it should be optional to show the caption than to hide it, but you ignored that. I see no policy? I see "a rough guide", but no policy. -- /Alex/₂₁ 04:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, To be clear here, you are saying that Wikipedia:Template editor is not a policy, when it is in fact a procedural policy? And even tho it explicitly says that "Changes that significantly affect a template or module's visual appearance to the reader" require "substantial discussion" before they are made, you did the exact opposite anyway? I just need to be clear on this because you seem like an excellent candidate for someone to not have these user rights. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, you linked WP:TPECON. Can you state that in TPECON is says it's a policy? "Changes that significantly affect a template or module's visual appearance to the reader" No significant changes have been made.

Unfortunately, here, we have another case of you going off on a tangent. I explained my position as you requested, and you've ignored it again. Are you going to respond to it, or not? If you are, I planned to continue in detail: if such a compromise were coded in, then it would need to be applicable to at least a decent range of articles, not one or two. Templates should not be expected to cover every case, I've been taught recently, especially in such minor cases where the changes would affect such a minimal level of articles. This is the reason why I've asked you to provide a range of articles where the caption would need to be visible. -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:03, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, Yes, I did link WP:TPECON which is a policy. And you said it's not a policy! It's not a "tangent" when you requested a policy that you evidently had not read or comprehended or realized was incumbent upon you as a template editor. I am arguing that making something invisible is a significant visual change and you're saying that making something that used to display no longer display is not a substantial visual change? That's a pretty ridiculous hard sell, Alex and frankly, hard for me to even believe that you think that's true. You seem to have the burden of proof backwards here but examples of times when captions displaying would be valuable are "list of [x] episodes" that transclude several templates from several individual articles. There are several dozen of these on Wikipedia. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:08, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, TPECON is a guide. Not a policy. Any policy will be prefaced with {{Policy}}; TPECON is prefaced with {{Notice}}.

As for examples of times when captions displaying would be valuable are "list of [x] episodes" that transclude several templates from several individual articles... No, these would still be valid for the case of an invisible caption. For example, this table (which is a "list of [x] episodes" that transclude several templates from several individual articles) has the caption "The Flash, season 1 episodes", despite being at the article "List of The Flash episodes" and in the section "Season 1 (2014–15)". Hence, redundant, and a supportive case for an invisible caption.

Have I now answered your questions? -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:16, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, TPECON is a section in Wikipedia:Template editor which is a policy. Please stop your bad faith wikilawyering. You are obliged to seek consensus before making substantial display changes and removing the appearance of a caption is a substantial display change. Yes, I have a question: why did you think this edit was appropriate? Have you seen Wikipedia:Template_editor#Dispute_with_a_fellow_template_editor? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you intend to discuss the content at hand or not? I'd like to provide a similar example here. I recently made another update to a television-related module to cater for the case of about 90-odd television articles. It was reverted, as the issue was easily able to be fixed manually at those articles, so that the module/template would work properly at those articles, and thus my edits would have not been necessary anymore. Do you see how this relates here to the use of "visible" captions being needed at a minimal number of articles? -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, will you be continuing this discussion, or not? -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, I asked you questions and you didn't answer them. As I have already explained to you, I am not answering your questions until you answer mine. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, I have answered your questions in detail. In case you have forgotten, I replied in detail here, expanded in further detail here, answered your "list of [x] episodes" questions here, and provided a related case here. Is that not enough for you? -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, "Yes, I have a question: why did you think this edit was appropriate? Have you seen Wikipedia:Template_editor#Dispute_with_a_fellow_template_editor?" ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:00, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, talk pages are where editors discuss content, not conduct. The administration board is the location for conduct discussions. Where have I not answered a question about the content? Specifically, where I have not answered a question about the captions, the module, the template or the episode tables themselves? Please, link me, and I'll answer you. -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:03, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, according to the page you just linked, the conduct issue needs to be resolved before the content one and yet, you are trying to address the content while the conduct issue remains unresolved. Is that correct? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:07, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, no conduct is occurring now that is preventing the content discussion. The conduct itself that was reported occurred almost two hours ago, and yet you seemed fine discussing the content after that in the first place. What has changed? Do you intend to continue discussing it or not? I'll need to ask again, where I have not answered a question about the captions, the module, the template or the episode tables themselves? You specifically stated I am not answering your questions until you answer mine, and I've specifically detailed that I have answered all of your questions. Please now answer my questions. Thank you. -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, I asked: "Why did you think this edit was appropriate? Have you seen Wikipedia:Template_editor#Dispute_with_a_fellow_template_editor?" and you didn't answer. If you answer those questions, I'll answer yours. You seem to display a fundamental ignorance about Wikipedia:Template editor: what is required, what is best judgement, what constitutes consensus (it is not built in the course of three comments in one hour by two editors), how to resolve disputes, and the collegiality that should exist among template editors or even that the page is a policy at all. I'm suggesting that your judgement is poor both in the case of changing something visual without seeking prior consensus and in terms of attempting to discuss for the purpose of consensus here. Common sense would dictate that you should have the option to display or not display and when you reverted, you didn't implement those options. You are either not actually trying to seek any consensus or you are fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes consensus. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, please discuss content, not conduct. I'll need to ask you again, where I have not answered a question about the captions, the module, the template or the episode tables themselves? You specifically stated I am not answering your questions until you answer mine, and I've specifically detailed that I have answered all of your questions about the captions, the module, the template or the episode tables themselves. Please now answer my questions about the same topics. -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, As I have written more than once, I will not answer your questions until you've answered mine. You have not told me if you have read Wikipedia:Template editor#Dispute with a fellow template editor nor have you explained why a revert to your first edit was your decision instead of including the option to display or not display it, as was discussed above. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, if you have questions concerning conduct, I will happily answer them at AN. Until then, I have answered your questions concerning the content. Please answer my questions concerning the content. This talk page is titled Template talk:Episode table, and thus, we are here to discuss Template:Episode table and Module:Episode table. -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Alex 21, Well, you know what you need to do: answer a yes or no question and justify a revert that you made. If you elect to not, that's up to you. You now clearly know that you are obliged to seek consensus on visual changes before you make them and reverted back to it anyway without consensus and you also refused to include the option to display or not display it, knowing that this would meet the concerns of other editors. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)