Talk:Estland

This article was quite problematic, and full of dubious historical claims.

First, it said that Estonia before February 1918 was an independent state. This is quite an unusual claim. After the February Revolution, the Russian provinces of Estonia (Estland) and the Estonian-speaking northern half of Livonia were united into one province, and Estonia was given certain autonomy, but it was not independent. I removed everything about that.

I have also never heard that Estonia was ever a "principality". This might be a term from the Livonian war in the 16th century, which would be a completely different topic.

Of course we need an article about the Swedish and later Russian governorate of Estonia (Eestimaa kubermang), which this is trying to be. But the naming is problematic, too. I haven't heard that "Estland" is the standard English name for this, I know it's been called Estonia of Esthonia. Estland might do better as a redirect to Estonia.

Rain74 08:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• "On 28 November 1917, the Land council proclaimed itself the highest power in Estonia..." 1850–1918. National awakening
• "Estonia declares itself independent." On This Day - 28 November 1917
• "On 28 November 1917, the Estonian Diet (the Maapaev) declared itself fee supreme power in Estonia." REPORT SUBMITTED BY ESTONIA PURSUANT TO ARTICLE 25 PARAGRAPH 1 OF THE FRAMEWORK CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF NATIONAL MINORITIES
• "Though the popularly elected Provisional National Council, had proclaimed itself the highest authority in Estonia as early as 28 November 1917..." Judicial Reform in Estonia
• "...1561. aastal said Eestimaa vürstiriik ja Tallinna linn kõrge Rootsi krooni kaitse alla." Eerikupäev

--Estland 21:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect this article is a part of the WP:POVFORK series that included Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) and Estonian SSR (independent), both deleted by now. It should probably also be deleted, but this one appears to contain actually useful information that should probably be merged into History of Estonia first. Digwuren 18:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I second to that motion. --Klamber 19:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Soviet Republic of Naissaar is also a likely member of the same series. Digwuren 19:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

As of now, this article "disambiguates" between a number of old administrative territorialities that once existed. I believe most of them shouldn't have their own articles, and should be merged into History of Estonia instead. Digwuren 08:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Estland (disambiguation)

Guys, please discuss the way you want to organize the page: reserve Eastland for the province and have Estland (disambiguation) for other meaning or have Eastland as a disambig and short articles about the provinces at each country.

I currently do not see killer arguments for one way or another Alex Bakharev 00:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's one: there is no "Eastland" distinct from "Estland". "Eastland", along with "Ehstland", "Esthland", "Aestland" and a number of other weird spellings is an alternative spelling of "Estland". Spelling of Germanic languages wasn't very stable in the Olden Days.

Furthermore, "Estland" and "Estonia" have the same semantic content. Digwuren 17:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In principle I am open to the suggestion, that Estland would be a dab page. This is however what needs to happen first:

1. Someone must propose another name for the existing old article.
2. A consensus must be reached
3. The page must be moved to make page for the dab page.

Until this happens, the page should stay with its old content, and the dab page should stay at Estland (disambiguation). -- Petri Krohn 00:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

the old content was a replica of whats under the links. There is absolutely on reason for keeping ANY of it on this or any other page. There were only links that are here, the intro that is also here. The only thing not here is the uncited and AFAIK untrue claim that it was a short lived country. Feel free to add anything that you feel needs added to the linked pages if found acceptable there. I will fully support this being disambiguation page.--Alexia Death 05:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S This being a disambiguation page is a consensus witch you allone are resisting.--Alexia Death 05:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This article does not have any really importnant content as it consist only of short summaries of other articles. Considering its relatively little importance, everything that needs to be preserved and is not yet at History of Estonia should be moved there, article itsselfly should stay as disambiguation page(or it should be redirect to disambiguation page).--Staberinde 08:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohns continued attempts of reverting

Petri Krohn is still regularly attempting to vandalize this page in spite the consensus on talk page. He refers to AfD in witch the consensus was the same, this should serve as disambiguation page and AfD was closed per request of the starter after reaching this consensus. Is some form of administrative action needed to get this to stop?--Alexia Death 15:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything in those old pages he tries to push other than what had been handled under linked pages? Because I sure cant see anything.--Alexia Death 16:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that keeping "Estland" as a concept separate from "Estonia" is what he wants to achieve. Thus, it's not about content per se; it's about WP:WEIGHT. Digwuren 18:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Irredentism?

I really do not understand what is the point in the attacks against this page. If it was a question of the name, this could be solved. someone just needs to propose a new name.

The issue seems to be something else, "time travel" irredentism. It seems like Estonian editors want to deny do not want it to be known, that most of Estonia in fact belonged to Livonia. The claim here is Estonia irredenta - Estonia has always existed and will always exist in its present borders. -- Petri Krohn 04:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)