Talk:Israel–Hamas war

Reaction statement in the lead

The following sentence, currently in the lead, is quite objectionable:

"As of 11 October, at least 44 countries have condemned the attack as a terrorist attack, while other countries have placed the responsibility on Israel and criticized it for occupying Palestinian lands."

The sources used to support this claim are a Thinktank and the Reuters, with the Reuters does not seem to be supporting the sentence in the lead. The think Tank source is not really a suitable source for this purpose. Aside from the sourcing issues, why should this reaction be stated in the lead? How about adding that thousands of protest are taking place against Israel against the world? --Mhhossein ^talk 15:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

That text has problems. Better sources are needed, and the WEIGHT of a substantial sample of RS needs to be used to provide suitable and suitably-framed article text. SPECIFICO talk 17:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

More thoughts? --Mhhossein ^talk 21:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I think the 44 should be removed unless better sources can be found. But it's cler that some countries have called the attack terrorist. Though I'm not sure if that's lead worthy.

Second, Israel's occupation of Palestinians is a fact and should not be presented as an opinion of some countries. Even the US and EU (and even Israeli courts) treat the West Bank as Israeli-occupied territory. VR _talk 05:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

While it is true that the thinktank is pretty heavily biased, I'm not sure that alone warrants removal entirely. According to a Non-Profit Think-Tank rating group sponsored by UPenn, among about 4,000 nominees, The Washington Institute was voted to be among the best in Transdisciplinary Research and Policy Oriented Research Programs, earning number 43 and 51 respectively. A source that is biased doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be removed. Perhaps we could insert an attribution or a {{better source needed}} tag?

As a side note, a country's borders is literally an opinion of most countries; all borders are made up after all - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 15:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Then we should discuss if it can be included in the lead. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:50, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

• I can help here friends. There are other reliable sources, for example: The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, The Guardian and Al Jazeera Media Network. Let me add them to the article to help. You may see them in Bearing Witness (2023 film). With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 13:07, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

  After that, the same Winep (not a great source) is now cited three times. (Strike, it has been reverted) Seems that is the only source for the 44 countries thing, so I agree this sentence would appear to be undue for the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Which source is not great? All three? Why so you believe so? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

As I said above and again when you raised this issue below, WINEP, a pro Israel think tank, so should be attributed anyway. Seems the only source for the 44 countries thing, undue. Selfstudier (talk) 15:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Copy from below section

Hi Duvasee. Let's discuss why do you want to remove this content. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 13:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

This is already included in 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. Duvasee (talk) 13:41, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

This is not a valid reason to remove the addition in another article. Please read prior discussion where it was mentioned regarding this current article. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

As you can see in the prior discussion, your edit effectively added winep (a poor source) three times, and it is the only source for "44...etc", so I think undue. Selfstudier (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

There are other sources such as the Economist etc. that also support that statement that it is the bloodiest day in Israeli history and the deadliest for Jews since the Holocaust. This has been covered by multiple reliable sources. Homerethegreat (talk) 07:50, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It's not undue. This is due. The deadliest day for the Jewish people since 1945 is not due? The deadliest day in Israeli history is not due? Homerethegreat (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

We are talking about this sentence - "As of 11 October, at least 44 countries had condemned the Hamas invasion as a terrorist attack,..." sourced to WINEP. Selfstudier (talk) 11:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I think we are talking on the title: the bloodiest in Israel's history and the deadliest for Jews since the Holocaust. Look at the edit @Oleg Yunakov is referring to. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You removed it with the justification Per talk, WINEP is a biased source that should be attributed and therefore undue for the lead as the only source for "44 countries...", Reuters source does not support it.

First, I would suggest that the statement in general is due for the lede; a summary of international opinion is highly relevant.

Second, their bias or lack thereof doesn't come into play; they are making a clear statement of fact (at least 44 countries had condemned the Hamas invasion as a terrorist attack) and unless they are unreliable - and this statement could be used to prove they are, if it is false - we can and should echo it.

As such, I've restored the content. BilledMammal (talk) 11:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

WINEP is a biased source and requires attribution, therefore it is unsuitable for the lead which is presenting the statement as fact. Independent RS is required to support this, it is telling that there no other sources for the statement (the Reuters source does not support the material, either).

This discussion is actually an improperly titled continuation of the section above #Reaction statement in the lead where this issue was originally raised by another editor so I am going to copy this section there. Selfstudier (talk) 11:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with the UNDUE aspect. There are lots of factoids about this conflict. For example, ALJazeera, a reliable source, points out[1] that Israel has killed 136 children per day in the first 30 days, compared to 0.6-3 children killed per day in much larger conflicts like Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria and Yemen. But if it is only a single source making this (indisputably true) claim it would be undue for the lead. VR _talk 01:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

End copy

I have tagged the disputed material undue inline. Selfstudier (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Aside for the reliability of the cited source, some users have raised objections against the inclusion of the sentence in the lead. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Hamas exaggeration in the lead

"As of 3 December 2023, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, more than 15,500 Palestinians, including over 6,000 children as of 23 November 2023, have been killed, making this the deadliest wars for children in modern times." Gaza Health Ministry is run Hamas, and these numbers are likely greatly exaggerated, and were disputed by the United States.[2] Describing this war as "deadliest wars for children in modern times" in the lede with unreliable Hamas source goes against neutrality. Crampcomes (talk) 20:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

That is very old news from Fox, the US has since essentially admitted the numbers provided by the MoH are likely accurate or an undercount. This has been repeatedly discussed, and the bit on deadliest war for children comes from the UN, not any Gazan agency. nableezy - 20:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Current figure according to Hamas: 20000 killed, while according to Israel only 10000 civilians killed.[3] Since the total number of casualties is disputed, we can't make such strong statements such as "deadliest wars for children in modern times" in the lede with unreliable Hamas source which were copy/pasted by UN. Crampcomes (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

And Israel has previously said 20k dead in Gaza (and that was back in early November). Israel's propaganda can be noted, but sources treat the numbers from the MoH as reliable, and the UN statement on deadliest for children is independent. And previously discussed here for that matter. And oh by the way, the number from the MoH is 15,889 from your own source. The 20k includes the people that haven't been rescued from collapsed buildings. nableezy - 20:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

What you cited is an unreliable blog post. Israeli official estimate is reliable because it's a government source, while Hamas is a terrorist genocidal organization that recently committed mass crimes per many sources. Nonetheless since the number is disputed, for the sake of neutrality, we can't make such strong statements in the lede until it's fully verified. Crampcomes (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Uh, thats Ynet, one of Israel's leading news sources. Cool story on your personal analysis, but this isnt your blog so it doesnt really count for anything here. And the material in the lead has been verified, you just think that means something that it does not. But it is a verifiable statement that the MoH in Gaza has given that as its count of dead. nableezy - 20:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

That blog post basically quoted a "security guard," not an official government statement. Crampcomes (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

it isnt a blog, and it quotes a senior security official, not a security guard. Not sure why you are just making things up for no apparent reason but cool I guess. nableezy - 21:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Israeli official estimate is reliable because it's a government source, Sorry, but that is one strange statement. Gov't sources are not reliable in a war. Look at the gross exaggerations by the US gov't during the Vietnam War. Governments and militaries lie. Militaries even lie to their own governments. OTOH, the Gaza Health Ministry is a civil service group and generally considered reliable. You should self-revert your Hamas-run change. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

BBC clearly says "Hamas-run Gaza health ministry" [4] as do many other reliable sources[5][6] Crampcomes (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean to question the UN comment on the deadliest war for the children by this? --Mhhossein ^talk 21:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with any UN comment. Crampcomes (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Reverted. This has been discussed to death already here and on other pages. Gaza MoH is considered reliable. Selfstudier (talk) 23:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Gaza Health Ministry is considered reliable by whom? It is known to be run by Hamas which is considered a terrorist organization in the West. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

By multiple RS, follow the link. Was also discussed at other pages. Do keep up, to help, here are some sources:

WAPO OC 24: "Why news outlets and the U.N. rely on Gaza’s Health Ministry for death tolls" "Many experts consider figures provided by the ministry reliable, given its access, sources and accuracy in past statements."

Reuters 27 Oct "Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable

AP 26 Oct "EXPLAINER: What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death toll?" "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions."The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis," said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. "But they largely reflect the level of death and injury." In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies."

Time 26 Oct"News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past."

Gdn 27 Oct "Can we trust casualty figures from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry? "Israel and Joe Biden have shown scepticism about accuracy of rising death toll but others point to historical reliability of data"

Can we trust casualty figures from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry? discusses the MoH methodology and goes into more details than others (e.g., immediately reported numbers are less reliable)

BBC: World Health Organization (WHO) regional emergency director Richard Brennan, based in Cairo, said last week he believed the figures provided by the health ministry were trustworthy. "We're confident that the information management systems that the ministry of health has put in place over the years stand up to analysis," he said, adding "the data over the years has been quite solid".

Die Zeit: English translation: The World Health Organization, like many other organizations, trusts the figures. "We have had good experiences with the Ministry of Health in the past, for example with vaccination campaigns. We see no reason to fundamentally doubt the numbers of wounded, dead and sick. And the question for all of us is: would we have a different discussion if there were 100 or 200 fewer deaths? I don't think so," says Lindmeier.

WSJ, 11/10: U.S. Officials Have Growing Confidence in Death Toll Reports From Gaza

Selfstudier (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

But the fact remains that more children died in the Syrian Civil war... I honestly do not think its appropriate to start comparing deadliness in the tragedy of war. But we must remain encyclopedic. (By mid-March 2022, opposition activist group the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) reported the number of children killed in the conflict had risen to 25,546, and that 15,437 women had also been killed) [7] Homerethegreat (talk) 10:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

You're right it is disputed. And I'm pretty sure the Syrian Civil War has been deadlier, also according to the Al Jazeera source the Syrian Civil war had more casualties. Although I do not like the notion of starting to compare the deadliness of war we should not have in the page info that is unsourced. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Guterres "graveyard for children" was removed on the thesis that a quote was inappropriate in the lead so it was replaced with RS prose instead. Sourcing such statements is not difficult, for example

NYT "In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war." or "experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza show that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century."

The rate of killing in this conflict is notable and commented on in many sources. Selfstudier (talk) 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

"has few precedents in this century" - you can write, one of the deadliest. But you cannot write the deadliest since it is not fact. In the Syrian Civil war more children died. I do not like this notion of comparing the deadliness of war but we must remain encyclopedic and act according to sources. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

There is more to that. There are Casualties numbers in Infobox and they are not attributed. There should be an attribution at who is the source for the number is. Manyareasexpert (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

they're sourced directly, aren't they? EvergreenFir (talk) 00:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

They are sourced and they also should be attributed. Manyareasexpert (talk) 01:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

why? WP:ATTRIBUTION is satisfied and the info infobox is not a place to do WP:YESPOV EvergreenFir (talk) 01:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

As a reader, I want to know which side reports the number. Manyareasexpert (talk) 01:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

There are links. You can't expect all this detail in an infobox. Not its purpose. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Let's take one. "Number of UN staff killed in the Gaza Strip rises to 79". What side is this? Attribution is one of basics of WP:NPOV. I don't want all the details. "Source: Israel" or "Source: HAMAS" or "Source: UN" would be enough. Manyareasexpert (talk) 01:47, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at [8] O3000, Ret. (talk) 02:10, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly why when you click the citation it takes you to the reference list for you to see who said it EvergreenFir (talk) 03:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

According to the NYTimes, Israeli sources estimate ~15,000 dead in Gaza, with at least 5,000 of them being combatants. Its not an official attribution, but if its more widely reported can put a stop to this conversation. TimeEngineer (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

They said more than that, they said that the Gazan MoH numbers are roughly accurate according to Israel too. On Monday, a senior Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity under army rules, told reporters that the Gazan ministry’s estimate of 15,000 total deaths was roughly accurate but that at least 5,000 people killed in Gaza were combatants, rather than civilians. nableezy - 13:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Reuters today latest on this, confirms historical reliability of Palestinian figures as well as the likelihood that the actual death toll is actually higher than reported. Selfstudier (talk) 13:16, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Hamas is supposedly concurrently running a campaign of misinformation since this war started, see this report by the Center for Strategic and International Studies: Social Media Platforms Were Not Ready for Hamas Misinformation. According to some reports, Hamas's misinformation has been parroted by some media, see these for example: Media are still promoting Hamas’ cynical lies, and Why Hamas is an Unreliable Source and How Many Reporters Fail to Disclose This Crampcomes (talk) 21:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

That stuff can go in Misinformation in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war Selfstudier (talk) 11:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I ask for reliability evaluation of the 3 sources provided by Crampcomes, namely "Center for Strategic and International Studies", "The Jewish Star" and " InvestigativeProject.org". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 11:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

InvestigativeProject is an anti-Muslim hate site and not a usable source. The Jewish Star article is a partisan opinion piece in a minor newspaper, not very valuable. CSIS is a US think tank (meaning, an undisclosed lobbying organisation for U.S. weapons manufacturers) but their article appears factual. DFlhb (talk) 12:03, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

The CSIS paper also has nothing to do with casualty figures or the ministry of Health. nableezy - 16:18, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Can you guys join my talk section “ Subject on moving first paragraph lead sentence to second paragraph” as there is no one joining in Bobisland (talk) 11:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Subject on moving first paragraph lead sentence to second paragraph

I think it would be better for organization and smoother reading if the sentence “After clearing Hamas militants, the Israeli military responded by conducting an extensive aerial bombardment campaign in which 6,000 bombs were dropped on Gazan targets” and after of the first paragraph were moved to the second paragraph on the top as it combines the Israeli response Bobisland (talk) 16:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

just do it, if somebody has a problem it will be reverted and then a discussion can take place. But you can be bold. nableezy - 16:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I already did but it got reverted Bobisland (talk) 17:25, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

well in that case the person who reverted you should explain why here. Ping them and ask for an explanation. nableezy - 17:28, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

suspected Hamas militants surrendered

Could someone kindly explain to readers what this is supposed to mean?

• A militant can surrender
• Someone who is suspected of being a militant hasn't by definition surrendered. Civilians don't surrender. If among a body of people presenting themselves as civilians, some are suspected of being Hamas militants in mufti, they are not surrendering but trying, if the suspicion proves to be correct, to slip away. Please adjust and try avoiding the inane syntax of Israeli war reportage on this page.

Nishidani (talk) 09:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Persons suspected of being affiliated with Hamas performed an act of surrender to Israeli forces. What needs explanation? Homerethegreat (talk) 11:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

That is not an answer, but a recapitulation of the error. 'Persons suspected of being affiliated with Hamas performed an act of surrender to Israeli forces'. Image floating before the reader's eyes: people under rubble check their iphones as Israeli forces close in. They dial up the IDF register of Gazans listed as Hamas affiliated suspects. Noticing that their names are listed there,they deduce they are on the suspects' list and thereby they duly surrender as 'suspected Hamas militants.' The phrasing is farcical.Nishidani (talk) 12:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand the story that you added and how it's relevant about "Image floating before the reader's eyes..." . We act according to sources and add information accordingly. People suspected of being affiliated with Hamas surrendered, meaning they laid down their weapons, handed them over to Israelis etc. You can add of course that Israel was criticized for having arrested a journalist or other persons not affiliated with Hamas. Homerethegreat (talk) 13:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

That isn’t true according to the international press. nableezy - 14:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

[9] Homerethegreat (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Israel says. Further reporting has cast doubt on the claims. Like Haaretz and BBC. This is not a platform for Israeli propaganda in which we repeat the claims of a combatant as though they are accurate and objective fact. nableezy - 15:32, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

At this point, it's more war crime than "surrender" - the 10-15 have also been labelled "Hamas-affiliated", which could equally mean Hamas local politician, bureaucrat, butcher, baker or candlestick maker as anything else - it's not clear or evidenced (and seems improbable at this point) that any of the detainees were active combatants in the sense of being capable of "surrender". Iskandar323 (talk) 15:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The word "suspected" is not used by i24 which simply says that 150 terrorists surrendered. Ynet calls them "חשודים בטרור", that is, "terror suspects," which is ambiguous, but most Israeli sources call them militants/terrorists without caveats (example). I would suggest replacing the word "suspected" with the attribution, along the lines of 150 Hamas militants surrendered on 7 December and dozens more three days later according to Israeli sources. Alaexis_¿question? 12:39, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree "suspected" with attribution. "Suspects" routinely surrender in various contexts and for various reasons. In this case, plausibly, to avoid being summarily executed. SPECIFICO talk 17:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, that is acceptable, we can simply call them militants/terrorists (though best use militants since otherwise it will require attribution). Homerethegreat (talk) 13:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

per Haaretz "Of the hundreds of Palestinian detainees photographed handcuffed in the Gaza Strip in recent days, about 10 to 15 percent are Hamas operatives or are identified with the organization" and "....this is not a massive surrender of entire units of Hamas disbanding and handing over their weapons to IDF fighters. Despite this, the security officials claim that the published photos of those detainees have a strong effect on the motivation of the organization's operatives who are still fighting in Gaza." Selfstudier (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The international press has attributed these claims to Israel, i24 has repeatedly published discredited propaganda and shouldnt be treated as though it is giving an unbiased account here, or even an accurate one. Ive added what the NYT and the Guardian has to say on these supposed terrorist surrenderings. nableezy - 17:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

BBC "There are still some questions raised by the footage. Notably, the man is being held at gunpoint and issued directions from off-screen, so it's unclear whether he is "surrendering" the weapons or just moving them as instructed. Given he is already in his underwear and he cannot have been concealing them on his person, it's unlikely Israeli troops did not know about these weapons, suggesting this may be performed for the camera, rather than as an act of authentic surrender. We also don't know if he, or any of the other individuals in the video, have any involvement with Hamas or the 7 October attack." caveat emptor. Selfstudier (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Add that plz, or I can too. nableezy - 19:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps what is being conveyed here can be described succinctly rather than reeling off what one media outlet after another said on this subject. The paragraph in question is overlong and disproportionate weight. Coretheapple (talk) 15:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Guess it was the right amount of weight when it pushed the lie hundreds of Hamas militants have surrendered to Israel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. nableezy - 15:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Lede

Once upon a time, we had a professionally written, concise, and easy to read lede [10]. Now we have utter chaos instead. This needs to be fixed asap. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The issues need to be resolved pointwise. --Mhhossein ^talk 19:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the lead is ungainly and requires clarity and condensation. I also think that the article needs a good going-over and checked for neutrality and proper use of sources. I found one passage, right in the lead, in which a quote did not accurately reflect the underlying source and was phrased in a POV manner. Coretheapple (talk) 23:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

"Guerre Israélo-Palestinien octobre 2023" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Guerre Israélo-Palestinien octobre 2023 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 10 § Guerre Israélo-Palestinien octobre 2023 until a consensus is reached. Dsuke1998AEOS (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:SKYISBLUE

@AquilaFasciata: How is that even applicable here 'for the statement about footage of Israelis taken captive'? نعم البدل (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Re [11] I agree with "displayed," as "appeared to show" is POV and weaselly. Coretheapple (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)