::Yes, and I went on to say that's like a driver being indifferent to traffic signals. Not acceptable or legal, but it does explain wanton reckless behavior. There's been a substantial body of RS discussion of Trump that tries to provide a unified theory of his behavior as an expression of a narcissistic personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just kind of inconsistent with holding high political office. But these same sources go on to say that Trump and those around him did not really expect him to win the election, and so everything would have worked out happy-hippo. You can forget the Daily Caller as a WP source, btw. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 17:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
::Yes, and I went on to say that's like a driver being indifferent to traffic signals. Not acceptable or legal, but it does explain wanton reckless behavior. There's been a substantial body of RS discussion of Trump that tries to provide a unified theory of his behavior as an expression of a narcissistic personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just kind of inconsistent with holding high political office. But these same sources go on to say that Trump and those around him did not really expect him to win the election, and so everything would have worked out happy-hippo. You can forget the Daily Caller as a WP source, btw. [[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 17:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
:::Why? Is The Daily Caller blacklisted, or is it because it's conservative? I had to laugh when at NPOV/N and then here you said [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3VphK9AMk "Not that there's anything wrong with that."] 😂 <sup>[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]</sup> 21:20, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
== Central Park jogger case ==
== Central Park jogger case ==
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I actually did not notice the talk section. I removed it because it all seems to hang on other clubs not allowing blacks or Jews, but the refs don't confirm this. Another problem is stating that it "has been called "one of the more Jewish-friendly clubs on Palm Beach"" when that is not actually a direct quote, and the person who expressed the opinion is just someone who was strongly in favour of moving the embassy to Jerusalem, not a huge fan of Mar-a-lago specifically. zzz (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly don't think it deserves a section, that is why I moved it to the "Defenses" section before deleting it. If you have a source that directly confirms the racism of the other clubs, then I have no objection. zzz (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I felt it was appropriate. I read the refs and what we have at Mar-a-Lago and it is my impression that it was a smart move on his part, besides the fact that he needed to open his place to those other than the old wealthy aristocracy if he wanted to get clientele, rather than a moral position. Never the less, he apparently did open his club to all. No one came right out and said that the other clubs don't allow Jews, though it was inferred. I wish we could find a good factual site on the subject as well... Gandydancer (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"But Trump undercut his adversaries with a searing attack, claiming that local officials seemed to accept the established private clubs in town that had excluded Jews and blacks while imposing tough rules on his inclusive one. Trump’s lawyer sent every member of the town council copies of two classic movies about discrimination: “A Gentleman’s Agreement,” about a journalist who pretends to be Jewish to expose anti-Semitism, and “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” about a white couple’s reaction to their daughter bringing home a black fiance." from [1] describing how Trump had to fight for his inclusive club in a way that the private clubs that excluded black and Jewish people didn't have to fight. Lin4671again (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
From the same article: "Wyett, who is Jewish, said he would hear Trump talk with pride about Mar-a-Lago’s nondiscriminatory policy, but wondered if it was a business strategy: “Was he smart enough to realize that Palm Beach is about 40 percent Jewish and he was not going to attract the old guard anyway?”" I have already done a revert today, but that addition to the lead definitely needs to be reverted.zzz (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Is this article just setting out to deal with the evidence that suggests that Trump is racist or is it trying to deal with all evidence? Had you said you felt the addition should be moved to the 'Defences' section I may have thought the latter....Lin4671again (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following text should be removed from the opening sentence of the lede: but, also, in the 1980's he turned his Mar-a-Lago mansion into an inclusive private club at a time when Palm Beach private clubs excluded black and Jewish people,[5] and in 2017 unequivocally stated that "racism is evil". SPECIFICOtalk23:31, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This is anecdotal and does not belong in the lead. Trump's public remarks and actions are far more noteworthy than what someone claims they heard Trump say with pride.- MrX 🖋 00:36, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support inclusion - and also include the fact that his daughter and son-in-law are Jewish. There are far too many holes in the anti-semetic, racist claims against him which are based on opinions. The results of lawsuits are notable but so is his position of no admission of guilt - we use the statements of fact in the sources, use in-text attribution for the opinions, and maintain a neutral dispassionate tone, with proper balance & weight. Atsme📞📧23:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Requested move 16 February 2018
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Yeah that is a good example why accusations of racism against Donald Trump is actually more accurate. Since that quote "...laziness is a trait in blacks." is a second hand account of what someone else said he said with no one else backig it up.[2]PackMecEng (talk) 23:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What's the problem? Nixon was famously bigoted against various ethnic and religious groups. Why be so defensive about this? It's not as if Trump tries to conceal it. SPECIFICOtalk00:04, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is not an accurate representation of the quote. You could have at least read the part of the article that I pulled it from. Trump was asked if the book it appeared in was accurate, and said that it was. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.00:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And you could of read the next paragraph that said “He made up this quote. I’ve heard the quote before, and it’s nonsense,” Trump said. “I’ve never said anything like it, ever.” PackMecEng (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I did. And I presumed that politicians lie. Was this a poor presumption on my part? (Hint: It's not). When someone like Trump -who can't take any criticism without popping his top- is accused of racism, they're not going to wait ten years to lash out at the person making the accusation, unless that person isn't particularly offended by the accusation. You know who's not offended by accusations of racism, don't you? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.00:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They certainly do, all the dam time. But a few things. One he was not a politician at the time. Two when he confirmed it that was during a general interview on a lot of things and was not specific to that quote, hell he probably didn't read it. Three it still comes down to a disgruntled former employs word vs his, not something we could definitively say he said. More of a accusation if you will...PackMecEng (talk) 00:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One he was not a politician at the time. He was campaigning for a nomination at the time, therefore he was a politician. And if you think that Donald Trump on his own has more credibility than a politician, you owe politicians an apology.
Two when he confirmed it that was during a general interview on a lot of things and was not specific to that quote, hell he probably didn't read it. That quote had been one of the most visible parts of the book. Your implication that he didn't know about it is weak, very weak.
Three it still comes down to a disgruntled former employs word vs his Again; you owe disgruntled former employees an apology for implying they might be less honest than Trump.
More of a accusation if you will... I've already addressed this in my last comment.
With the timeline, he denied the comments right before dropping out. The book was 91, the probably true was 97, and the denial was 99. I was referring to the 97 to 99. So 8 years and some change, but like I said, do you think he actually sat down and read the thing? Also I don't know if the former employee is less honest or not, but it would be fair to label it an accusation instead of fact since there is reasonable doubt on both sides. Also dang it I take issue with the other politicians part, I'm from Illinois, we wouldn't know a politician telling the truth if they kicked us and then admitted it! PackMecEng (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, we're both getting a little hyperbolic (though it seems in a friendly way, which is fun but sometimes not so clear), so let me take it back to a more formal argument. 1) Yes, it is an allegation, I admit. It's not irrefutable that he actually said it, but 2) Donald Trump has a long history (hence our article) of making racist remarks, 3) though the remark itself got publicity at the time of publishing (see [3] and [4] for example), Trump admitted in 1997 that it was "probably" accurate, a statement which carries some weight because 4) Trump has a history of knee-jerk reactions to anything he perceives as insulting, and furthermore that 5) Trump's later refutation of the claim was entirely self-serving, as he was running for public office at the time. So I'm weighing probabilities here. There are several reasons to believe that Trump made that remark and no reasonable cause to believe his denial. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:30, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I think we have drilled about as far as we can go on his comments from 20 years ago, which would be in the scope of the article either way it goes. Personal feelings here, it would not be the least believable thing I have heard today that he actually made that comment. I'm also starting to get an intuition here about this article in general. Just how I see it. If something looks like bees, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't bees, you don't touch it. This article is defiantly reminding me of bees, so I'm going to try to not touch it for a bit. I doubt I will be able to keep to that, but bee stings stink. PackMecEng (talk) 03:46, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an expression of doubt in this context, and completely inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. We are obligated to adhere to WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables on reliable sources and try to make the so-called accusers look like the bad guys.- MrX 🖋 21:37, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Atsme, it sounds like you don't agree with WP:V and WP:RS. Feel free to take your policy revision proposals to the appropriate policy pages and let us know when they change. Meanwhile, Trump's 45 year history of racism is well-documented, and that's the subject of this article.- MrX 🖋 22:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Atsme: That doesn't address my point at all. You keep saying "the media is biased against Trump" and I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that there's a reason they're biased against him. Just like the media is biased against Kim Jong Un and Jeffrey Dahmer. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:36, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is interesting, because I've stated my point as plainly as is humanly possible (twice now), and you still seem to have missed it entirely. I know you're rather smart, so you don't have difficulty understanding my meaning. And I'm assuming you're not intentionally ignoring it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.23:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
sigh* No, whistle britches...I don't play games. I'm far too seasoned for such nonsense. Show me verifiable statements of fact, not opinions, rumor or propaganda like that which is being force-fed to the public by propaganda machines, bait & click news orgs and political pundits. It's amazing what some people will say if you pay them enough...which may explain why I have little faith in politicians. Atsme📞📧01:03, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You sit here and proclaim to have little faith in politicians... wait for it... While defending your faith in a politician. A politician who is demonstrably the most untrustworthy one to ever hold his office. You say you're too old to play games, but I don't see you doing anything but playing games in this thread. And while you may think your position is reasonable, I'm telling you right now: It's not. Nor will you be able to ever convince me that it is. All you have accomplished in this thread wrt me is losing a huge chunk of the respect I previously held for you. I wasn't exaggerating about being disappointed. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.01:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We write what the sources say...we don't editorialize...and we do our best to use sound editorial judgment when deciding what belongs in the article per PAGs. Common sense is a welcome collaborator. I still believe the title of this article should reflect its contents, and I'm saddened that it has caused you disappointment. Enjoy the weekend and be happy. Atsme📞📧02:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, Trump has been despised ever since he slithered through the Queens-Midtown Tunnel in the late 1970's to tear up and glass-plate the old Commodore Hotel on 42nd Street. There's lots of RS about how his mentor Roy Cohn taught him that any publicity is good publicity - even infamy. He has not suffered controversy and disparagement, he has courted and fomented it. Isn't that much obvious by now? Actually, I'm hoping you'll saddle up one of those ponies of yours and go lasso up a few of the 13 Russians the Grand Jury just put on the wanted list. SPECIFICOtalk23:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - most of the article does not actually tell the reader about Trump's self-professed views on race, but rather how commentators and pundits interpret his statements and actions. The alternative is more neutral and more faithful to the content of the article. Maybe a third alternative like "Donald Trump and race" could also be considered, as it is likewise more neutral. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 01:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, only 29.9% (4081 out of 5822 words) of the article is criticism of Trump for racism. The other 71.1% are descriptions of Trump's actions, his comments, third party comments defending Trump, polling information, and other background information. The article is obviously not about accusations.- MrX 🖋 02:36, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I think changing the title would be making it sound like he doesn't hold any negative racial views. After all "accusations" implies no one knows whether they are true. I don't think anyone can deny that he has said and done racist things, in fact that is more like a selling point for him. So the current title is NPOV while also being accurate as a description.ZXCVBNM (TALK)02:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I feel that the proposed title spins the matter in Trump's favor. Editors are correct that there is more verifiable meat behind these "accusations" than, say, those at Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. Other proposed or considered titles spin the matter the other way. The idea is not to spin the matter, and the easiest way to get there is by using as few words as possible. The essential words are "Donald Trump" and "racism". Thus, Donald Trump and racism. JFG, apparently you missed my comments[5][6] in the previous RM, or failed to see their obvious wisdom; It's a joke, folks. otherwise my suggested title would be what you were proposing here. I think it would be the least controversial and therefore the most likely to reach consensus, and if this fails I might (repeat, might) follow with my own RM. Re the image above, I hope that model was well paid. ―Mandruss☎10:39, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The current title is neutral. For one thing it does not use the word "racism". And it allows Trump to speak for himself. The proposed title would lend Wikipedia's credibility to the notion or accusation of racism. MelanieN alt (talk) 13:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence is literally people calling him racist "observers across the political spectrum to conclude that he is racist". That is already lending Wikipedia's credibility to the accusation. The whole lead minus the last sentence of the second paragraph is accusations of racism. The title should reflect the content of the article, very little is Trump's personal views with most of it sources commenting on how they think he is racist. PackMecEng (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, the first sentence is literally Donald Trump having a "history of making racially-charged remarks and pursuing racially-motivated actions and policies", and that's why observers have concluded that he is racist.22:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Oppose The subject of this article is Trump's racial views. That is the baseline. Then, yes, there are reactions to those racial views. Jytdog (talk) 01:56, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Jytdog: That is the issue at the heart of the title change. The actual contents of the article is largely how sources think he is racist. Very little of the article is dedicated to Trump stating his views or even responding to accusations. PackMecEng (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody's actual racial views are not always what they say they are. Probably rarely. Self-reports are somewhat relevant. We must have had five major discussions last summer/fall about what to do with various white supremacists stating "i am not a white supremacist". The community consistently said that their self-reports were not much relevant. Jytdog (talk) 02:46, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed they could be dishonest with others or even themselves. But again if they are denying it and we have to rely on "dog whistles" aka peoples subjective guesses, we cannot really state as fact he is racist. PackMecEng (talk) 22:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The key fact is that Trump's core views appear to be quite consistent across time and space. There's a certain amount of text and data needed to sort the wheat from the chaff, but then once his "racial views" are clarified -- as the article does reasonably well -- we don't need much more space to state them over and over. It's natural that the bulk of the article would therefore be concerned with the applications, implications, and provocations of his views. The explication and reaction then provide profile and context for understanding his views. I don't see how the article could be structured any other way. It doesn't go against the title or the topic at all, IMO. SPECIFICOtalk03:15, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per PackMecEng and Atsme. As well, it's neutral and has an encyclopedic tone. What's currently in place is neither. -- ψλ ● ✉✓03:18, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) @K.e.coffman: Well, that's indeed the problem: the title says that the article subject is Trump's racial views, and the contents speak almost entirely about people's reactions to Trump's comments about one incident or another, calling him a racist. Almost nothing on his professed views. — JFGtalk22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No it doesn't. As I have already pointed out, only 29.9% of the article is criticism or condemnation of Trump's racism.- MrX 🖋 22:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@PackMecEng & JFG: There's no problem here. If the topic were "Accusations..." then we'd have sources that discuss others who accused DJT of racism. The article in present form discusses his views. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
COMMONNAME is about what name "is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". It is not about what title best describes what RS talk about. Misuse of shortcut, five yard penalty and loss of down. Not that it matters, really, which is why this is small. The stated rationale is the same as that given by multiple others. Just a bit of drive-by nitpicking to show I'm not ignoring you guys. ―Mandruss☎12:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - After a fair amount of editing over several weeks I'm pretty convinced that the present title is the best one that's been suggested so far. "Accusations" would be a terrible choice, IMO. Gandydancer (talk) 01:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support – This title more accurately describes the article's contents. To get a full grasp on his exact "racial views" we'd need in-depth analysis and articles from academic journals, not just a collection of various controversial incidents and reactions from pundits and politicians (the article as currently written). FallingGravity18:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support-ish - dislike to have a 'criticism article' or vague pejorative but it seems to more closely match what the article content is. To keep the current title would require start inserting non-accusations and racial views expressed by Donald Trump that are not 'racist'. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support- this article as currently written and titled has big problems. Nearly all of the sources are news articles. Such articles are written by journalists, who for the most part are not sociologists or people trained in analyzing someone's racial views. They simply report news stories. So we have a big collection of news articles, compiled by anonymous Wikipedia editors, that somehow can, with authority, attempt to fully describe the racial views of the President. This should be done by peer reviewed, scholarly analysis. As this article stands now, it should be titled according to the proposal. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose -this change, but think it needs to be changed to something less controversial like, "Trump and racism" that does not upset either the Pro or Anti Trump crowds. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Threaded discussion
Let's see, we just rejected one proposed move to water down the title. Then we just rejected misrepresenting the "shithole" smear of a couple dozen nations of colored folks as if it maybe didn't really really happen. And so now we are going to spend our time discussing whether to pretend the subject of this article is a bunch of "allegations" because -- who knows if any of this is true? SPECIFICOtalk21:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, this has become the norm for Trump-related articles and I have to say, it as pathetic as it is transparent. The fomula seems to be first, try to delete the article entirely, claiming it's an attack page and that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. When that fails, try to pepper the article with weasel words, cherry-picked quotes, and equivocations. When that doesn't work, try to change the title so that instead of the article being about Trump's well-documented racism, it becomes and article about accusations in which Trump is portrayed as the victim. - MrX 🖋 21:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the news will come out tomorrow that it wasn't really Trump who said and did all those things. Does this article even get into the thousands of Puerto Ricans he let die when he could have provided disaster assistance. And they weren't even "illegal". That's something well documented in RS. I'll check and maybe we can add a section about that. SPECIFICOtalk22:31, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair on the Newsweek source, it states that then attributes it at the end to people on the ground. The money and supplies are there with more money coming. But the infrastructure to do anything with it was lets say poor before the disaster and has not gotten much better. It would be a hard sell to say it was racially motivated. PackMecEng (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah because The Root and Vox are good neutral sources... The Guardian an article responding to a TV comedian and People quoting twitter to say hes racist... Seems fairly hard doesn't it? PackMecEng (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, you know perfectly well that has nothing to do with the loss of electricity, potable water, transportation, and other critical life support systems. I'm giving you a giant trout for posting that off-topic garbage here. Please do better. SPECIFICOtalk00:47, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's time to get caught up on the facts - Vox’s Alexia Fernández Campbell reported that the Puerto Rican government’s own missteps in the reconstruction effort, including botching a massive recovery contract with Whitefish Energy, have further hampered the power restoration effort. See the article. Please, let's leave our biases at login and get back on point. This article needs to be renamed to reflect it's contents. Atsme📞📧01:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're on thin ice. I suggest you drop the whataboutism and the right-wing talking points. They don't change the mainstream reporting, which is all we care about here. SPECIFICOtalk01:15, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A look at the differences in the way the federal response played out in Huston and Puerto Rico, including Trump's actions and comments, is evidence in it's self. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:SPECIFICO - What racial views are here that are not accusations of racism ? While it seems a rough match to WP:WEIGHT of current coverage and I do not think one could reasonably avoid cites using the word "racist", the article starts with that in line 1 and has all 14 items of the history about what others raised up as accusations of racism. The article is not simply what Trump has expressed on racial topics, nor a covering poll-like of various race questions, nor showing the current Presidential policy stances on racial topics, nor covering across nationalities what Trump has said about them. I'd rather one of the other approaches for more information and less partisan blurbs, but currently the article content is not a match to the title. Markbassett (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about Trump's views, just as other articles are about Shakespeare's plays or about the climate of Angola. Such articles don't just post an anthology of primary source extracts. They are commentary interpretation and evaluation of the subject. Some editors here are tending to want lots of editor-selected primary source extracts, but that is exactly what we should not be doing. The concern that published negative evaluations of Trump's views are "attacks" makes no sense. Such views should be balanced in due proportion with evaluations that see his views on race positively. When we include those in proportion to their incidence in mainstream RS, we have a good NPOV balanced article. On the other hand, we don't have lots of positive fodder for such balance on a broad array of subjects that are commonly viewed as negative. Trump's racial views are only one such topic on WP. SPECIFICOtalk16:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
As with nearly all polls on WP, there was some support for various other views, but there was nothing to suggest that there could possibly be consensus for a proposal like this. It's a distraction, and because there's no possibility of consensus for this proposal, it's just hurting all the other articles we could be working on. Instead we have to keep showing up to prevent edits and moves that obviously fail verification and cherrypick undue content and points of view. SPECIFICOtalk00:13, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Could we try reducing the words like "Trump and racism" or make it more general, like "Trump and racial issues"; the more words added the more 'someone' will find fault with the idea. Just my opinion - C. W. Gilmore (talk) 03:33, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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There is disagreement among editors about the way to mention Trump's second reaction to Charlottesville events. Two proposals are on the table, cited to the same New York Times article:
Version A:
Two days later, responding to the wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks, Trump delivered a prepared statement, saying "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."[1]
Version B:
Two days later, Trump denounced far-right violence, stating: "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."[1]
Which one shall we add?
For context, the disputed text would sit between current paragraphs:
In his initial statement on the rally, Trump did not denounce white nationalists but instead condemned "hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides". His statement and his subsequent defenses of it, in which he also referred to "very fine people on both sides", suggested a moral equivalence between the white supremacist marchers and those who protested against them, leading some observers to state that he was sympathetic to white supremacy.[2]
and
Ten days after the rally, in prepared remarks at an American Legion conference, Trump called for the country to unite. He said: "We are not defined by the color of our skin, the figure on our paycheck or the party of our politics. Rather, we are defined by our shared humanity, our citizenship in this magnificent nation and by the love that fills our hearts."[3]
B - whether the statement he made was pre-prepared or ad lib is irrelevant. What matters is that he choose to condemn and in a way that was quite unequivocal. Birtig (talk) 22:29, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A - mentioning it was a prepared statement puts in into context of why Trump later went back to statements more in line with his initial statement that there were some good people on both sides. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A - as it actually reflects what the source says. The source is not just about the quote, it's about the fact that the statement was made after the disapproval. To omit that fact is to carry out misrepresentation of the source (and POV) by omission.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:14, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A - reflects the cited NY Times source about the prepared statement. It's important to read that source to see that the "evil" bit was read with a strange air of detachment and that Trump returned almost immediately to race-baiting remarks of various kinds, and that the "evil" bit was "not taken seriously" by observers across the political spectrum, etc. etc. Adding more and more sources, e.g. the much later cherrypicked Hill reference, does not change the facts surrounding the event at which Trump read the "racism is evil" remark. There having been no previous support for including this scripted air kiss to political correctness, the stated motivation of the current RfC appears to suggest forum-shopping. SPECIFICOtalk23:24, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A - B is self-serving, and would tend to mislead readers. A is far more representative of the source (and other sources) in that it places Trump's dubious sentiments in the appropriate context. - MrX 🖋 01:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In Between A and B (A with language mod). I think that we should mention the very wide criticism the initial stmt received. However, it would be incorrect to state in our voice that Trump was responding and not delivering this of his volition - my understanding of his stmt is that he did not say he was responding to anything in particular. I suggest: Two days later, following a wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks, Trump delivered a prepared statement, saying "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."[1]Icewhiz (talk) 13:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Icewhiz: -- we need to choose one or the other for the purposes of this poll. If you re-read the NYTimes source cited above for both texts, I think you'll see that the connection between the initial criticism of Trump's equivocation to the prepared statement "racism is evil" is directly from the cited source. SPECIFICOtalk14:28, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RfCs often closeout on a different option than what they started out with. I can not support A as it is currently worded, as responding has us taking a position on Trump's motivations (that I agree are likely per the sources, but I would not state it as a definitive). I agree that the outcry following his initial statements is highly relevant. If I have to choose between two (which for the record, I don't believe I do) - This is a !vote for B. I will support A with a minor language modification per my suggestion above.Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the explanation. I think your proposed change actually does improve the text of A. I would support it. My only concern is that this is at least the third time that the cherrypicked POV version B has reared its head, and I am afraid we'll see endless repetitions of what's basically a settled issue. I don't know a good way to deal with this and switch to your improved text. In fact, that's a core reason why this formal RfC is so pointless. I suppose if all previous commenters agree, we could change the language to your version. At this point, we can't just add yours as alternative C because it will fork and diffuse the poll. SPECIFICOtalk15:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep in mind that WP:NPOV clearly states: This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. It applies to statements challenged as noncompliant per WP:YESPOV, nonjudgmental language and no editorializing. Atsme📞📧15:42, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A -- clearly explains why the shift occurred. Per Icewhiz, I would prefer: "...following a wave of disapproval", rather than "responding". --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:29, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Version B as more straightforward and neutral statement of objective facts and chronology as commonly reported. Version A is leading with a speculation about motive that is specific to that source. (For example NPR says it as "followed", AP/USAtoday/Philly Inquirer make no allusion, CNN says "in response" ...) Such might be in a second line following, but would be attributed as their opinion and not a general statement. Markbassett (talk) 01:45, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A - Option B statement does not contain in itself a clear reference to far right ideology. Option A is widely documented and more specific to the events Arcillaroja (talk) 09:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is completely and utterly false and deceitful to assert that the first version involves some kind of "editorializing" or is "judgmental" (sic). The first version is simply more accurate. Trump at first failed to denounce the racism of the rally, he was criticized and THEN he made the statement. The fact that the statement was made only AFTER the criticism is a key piece of information and including it is NOT "editorializing". And it is textbook POV and WP:AGENDA to try to exclude that information from the article with an apparent purpose of misleading the reader.
"Non-judgmental" means "present all the facts". "Judgmental" would involve cherry picking only some of them to portray them in a false light. And that appears to be the purpose of this RfC and some of the "B" !votes.
Well, let's see...the term "racially charged" first sentence in the lede is cited without in-text attribution while ignoring the opposing views in the only RS which is the NYTimes and it actually includes other views which were ignored, including: The White House rejected assertions that Mr. Trump is racist. “This president fights tirelessly for all Americans, regardless of race, religion, gender or background,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman and Mr. Trump’s aides and allies expressed frustration that his comments were interpreted through a racial prism. Other cited sources include The Nation, which is a progressive left magazine, then there is the Real Estate section of Fortune Magazine (which is owned by Time), and Rolling Stone magazine, which is known as a music magazine. Yet, in WikiVoice it states in the lede, "...that have led observers across the political spectrum to conclude that he is racist." How is that compliant with WP:NPOV? What political spectrum? The left's spectrum? Rolling Stone and Fortune Magazine's spectrum? Now that the breaking news hype is over, it's time to deploy neutrality such as this CNN article, and what about the entirely different view by Fortune, the Chicago Tribune, even Politico had to tone down their sensationalism somewhat. To say RS overwhelmingly justify the racist label in WikiVoice is simply incorrect. Atsme📞📧01:41, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What? I honestly can't make any sense out your comment or understand what it has to do with the subject of this RfC.- MrX 🖋 01:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My comment isn't encrypted, MrX, so you should be able to make sense of it. You know what kind of sources our PAGs require in order to include contentious and disparaging material about a WP:PUBLICFIGURE, and I know you're aware of WP:SOURCETYPES - Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.WP:NEWSORG - If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. I even provided a few quotes from the within the same cited sources, from updates of those same sources, and from sources that disagree with the contentious label used in WikiVoice in the lede. I've stated my position. If you need further information, please refer to the section below titled Recent edits - textbook SYNTH and WEASEL. Happy editing, MrX. Atsme📞📧06:03, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My comment isn't encrypted, MrX, so you should be able to make sense of it. - Chuckle. I don't think that follows at all, Atsme. I mean, considering that I read tons of unencrypted stuff in Wikipedia talk spaces that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Sorry for being so logical, carry on. ―Mandruss☎16:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced by the same failed arguments. Oh, and all the condescension that has been directed at me isn't working, either. The issues with the article remain, several editors have challenged them, and we're getting the same resistance from the same group of article regulars who refuse to accept NPOV as the prevailing policy to which we all must adhere. Editorializing is neither warranted nor acceptable, and neither is cherrypicking only the derogatory opinions from RS to push a particular POV. It is beginning to appear very advocacy-like when editors refuse to adhere to NPOV. Any RS that is worth its weight will have opposing views and it is our responsibility to include them per policy. The very first sentence in the lede is so POV, I'm dismayed that admins have not acted on it because it clearly violates NPOV policy. There are mulitiple RS that have published articles which focus entirely on the denial of racism and there are updated articles in some of the cited sources that also reflect a more neutral position than what has been cherrypicked from the sources used in this article. I've already pointed that out and so have other editors above and below this particular thread. It's our job as editors to use editorial judgment (which is opposite of editorializing a source) in order to present a NPOV and not rely on a single POV that supports one's own. I cannot over-emphasize the importance that NPOV is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. Read the latter again. No one has suggested that we exclude the derogartory opinions sourced to biased sources (and advocacies like The Nation) but we must comply with PAGs which require in-text attribution to particular POVs that are opinion-based. If it's a widespread opinion we say that it is a widespread opinion, but we do not state it in WikiVoice like what was done in the lede. Atsme📞📧17:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Atsme, JFG, Emir of Wikipedia, Birtig, and PackMecEng:
The overwhelming majority of RS reporting makes the connection cited in version A above. Please review and consider. [13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20].
In fact, these sources suggest we should consider adding further context to the POTUS remarks, e.g. his public approval ratings hit their lowest levels of his presidency following his initial response to Charlottesville, and that there was sharp criticism from within his Republican party. SPECIFICOtalk16:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Adding oldWP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS to an already weighted article isn't the best option. I'd rather we summarize notable, encyclopedic events, not one-time episodes of MSM's news frenzy fed by the Trump, Obama or Clinton resistance (or the Russians). I like it better when biases are left at login and we are all collaborating productively to build a neutral encyclopedia. Regarding the sources you listed re: Trump's low ratings - well, ratings fluctuate, are not dependable (as Trump's election has proven), so what purpose do they serve? If you must look at ratings, look at the avgs & comparisons as what Gallup provides. It's best if we avoid citation overkill when we've confirmed there are multiple sources that share a similar POV (either hate Trump or don't hate Trump) so verifiability checks out just fine. I prefer RS that more closely represent an unsensational, realistic reporting beyond the bait & click headlines the news orgs have exhausted. Example: USA Today, (01-15-2018), CNN, (01-14-2018), the Time Magazine article, WaPo-08-14-2017 article & The Hill article you included above, this NYTimes article, the Chicago Tribune which brings another common sense perspective, AP via NBC News is another RS that presents both views and so on. The key is not even so much the sources but how editors apply good sound editorial judgment per NPOV. Atsme📞📧19:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I have not looked at all the sources but for example the first source from my reading doesn't support A. The source[21] says Mr Trump was criticised for not specifically denouncing extremists in his initial comments on the violence., But some felt Mr Trump's comments came too late., and After finishing his remarks, the president quickly exited the room, as reporters asked why he had not spoken sooner. The president did not answer, but such questions will follow him in the days ahead. which don't verify the fact that it was responding to the wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just for a change of pace on this apparently immortal question, I gave you a non-cherrypicked list to look at, so I'd appreciate it if you could address the sources as a whole. Thanks for looking. SPECIFICOtalk19:45, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To claim that it was responding to the wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks is a very specific claim and requires good sourcing. Keep in mind that this article is about Racial views of Donald Trump and not his presidency so if a detailed source like the BBC one doesn't make this clear then it is probably undue even if true. The Time source[22] says President Donald Trump sharply condemned racist, white supremacist, and neo-Nazi sympathizers on Monday afternoon, after nearly 48 hours of bipartisan criticism over his response to the weekend’s violent clashes in Charlottesville, Va. and Trump’s comments came amid censure from both Democrats and Republicans over his initial tepid response to Saturday’s violence in downtown Charlottesville. again showing the disapproval but not that his further comments was a response to disapproval of initial comments. Again with the NPR source[23] where it shows the disapproval of the initial remarks Almost 48 hours after violence engulfed Charlottesville, Va., President Trump called out white nationalist groups by name. Trump's remarks on Monday followed criticism that his initial statement about the clash of protesters did not condemn racist groups specifically.. These are the first three sources from the list you gave not some "cherrypicking" of my own. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:16, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't suggest you cherry-picked, just that I didn't censor the list of more or less the first search results I found. As to "responding" -- in the sense of doing something as a result of the condemnation he received -- yes I do think that's clearly supported by the bulk of the RS. @Icewhiz: suggested "following" rather than "responding to" above. Remember this whole bloated discussion began with a primary-sourced snippet that was cherrypicked and clearly misrepresented the even and the source. SPECIFICOtalk20:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Following" is supported by the sources unlike the questionable "responding to". Even if that was changed A still suffers from mentioning that the statement was prepared, without any context as to why this is. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent edits - textbook SYNTH and WEASEL
This edit whitewashes what the source says. The source says "numerous studies" - indeed that is the point of the article - not "some studies" [24]. In this case "tone it down" means "I'm gonna POV this".
This, with a misleading summary "remove gossip", actually removes well sourced text. This is NOT "gossip", that's absurd.
This is a clear cut case of SYNTH which juxtaposes two separate facts and tries to imply - via original research - that the first part of the claim is false. It also embellishes a bit on what is actually in the relevant source.
According to the meaning of gossip when googled, "casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details which are not confirmed as true". Therefore the issue is not the importance or trivial nature of the information but whether the sources are identified and reliable or just unattributed hearsay. Birtig (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:YESPOV, particularly Avoid stating opinions as facts, and Prefer nonjudgmental language which states (my bold underline): A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. There is also Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views which is not being applied as it should. Opinions are not facts and allegations of racism are opinions. POV has been detected, not just but one but by several editors. Also refer to WP:NEWSORG. Atsme📞📧23:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on all points. The first is a whitewash. The second has a questionable edit summary, although I'm not sure the article suffers for losing the material. The third does seem to run afoul of synth. It takes a cherry picked portion of the raw speech, and portions of two other sources and combines them in a way that suggests something new. There may be a source that makes such a conclusion, but those three ain't them.- MrX 🖋 02:07, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As the author of the challenged edits, let me respond to VM's criticism:
Regarding the first edit, the first cited source (The Nation) writes about ONE study, and the second source (Vox) mentions three studies -- that's "some" in my book, not "numerous". We could also say that these were cherry-picked studies from left-wing sources, but I'm not even bothering to look for counter-studies. My edit made the lead more neutral regardless. However, comparing the sources with our prose, I'm disturbed by a glaring misrepresentation: the Vox source says Trump’s rise was driven by racism and racial resentment, whereas our text says since Trump's ascendance in the Republican Party, racist attitudes and racial resentment have become more significant. That's an inversion of cause and consequence: the source says racism fueled Trump's rise while our text says Trump's rise increased racism. Very misleading!
My second edit actually removed textbook gossip -- well-sourced gossip is still gossip, i.e. unverified hearsay, which has no place in our encyclopedia.
In the third edit, the claim of SYNTH is unclear, and the article text could be modified to avoid any. Simply mention Trump's quote that is relevant to race: Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots and omit any opinions about his speech, or list sources giving positive as well as negative opinions of it.
Marek's opening comment and restorative edits are all that's needed to "uphold neutrality" -- no independent editor is objecting, so let's drop it now and move on per WP:OWN SPECIFICOtalk02:42, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
JFG, well, it may be "some" in YOUR book, but on Wikipedia we don't go by "JFG's book" we go by what reliable sources say. And these sources say "numerous", not "some". WP:OR. I agree on the inversion of the cause and effect though. How about we keep "numerous" and you can propose appropriate wording for taking care of the other issue?
No, to call this gossip is absurd. "Well sourced gossip" is in fact pretty much an oxymoron.
There's nothing unclear about it being SYNTH. To different claims/ideas are forged together to imply something which is not actually in any of the sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: 1. Did you forget about WP:BALANCE, WP:UNDUE and WP:LEAD? The Vox source cites three studies linking Trump with racist feelings in the electorate, and calls them "numerous", we don't have to parrot their claims. Besides, the article text grossly misrepresents even Vox by inverting cause and consequence. This cannot stand, especially in the lede section which is supposed to summarize the gist of the article body. So if you want to keep this, please insert a proper representation of the source in the article body, add counter-studies, and finally write a balanced summary in the lede. 2. Gossip sourced to the New York Times is still gossip. 3. I proposed a way to avoid any appearance of SYNTH; what do you think? — JFGtalk04:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no, it's just that WP:BALANCE would mean that you go and find sources which say there AREN'T "numerous" studies. And if a reliable source says "numerous", then yes indeed we have to "parrot their claim" - i.e. not misrepresent them as you're trying to do. I've already said that you can propose better wording in regard to the cause and effect so please stop red herringing this.
And no, please stop it with this "gossip" nonsense. Well sourced info is not "gossip". Indeed it is the opposite of gossip.
And your "proposal to avoid SYNTH" wasn't actually a proposal to avoid synth, it was a proposal to remove relevant text according to some WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. How does that work? How about instead of removing relevant text, we remove the SYNTH that you put in there? Problem solved. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. Fair enough that we'd have to find counter-studies for balance, and I can't be bothered to do such research right now. Whether three studies are "numerous" is a matter of personal opinion, and I agree to disagree; we could simply qualify the studies count more neutrally, by stating "Several studies have claimed…" rather than "Numerous studies…" or "Some studies…". On my other remark, glad to see you admit the misrepresentation, so how about switching to this text: Several studies and surveys have claimed that racist attitudes and racial resentment have fueled Trump's political ascendance, and have become more significant than economic factors in determining party allegiance of voters.
2. Looks like we don't have the same definition of gossip. Seems that this "well-sourced" hearsay is sourced to nobody in particular, and was denied by several participants. Contrary to the "shithole" incident which was confirmed, "forgotten" or not-really-denied by many named sources. So until somebody has the guts to say "I was here and I confirm Trump said that", it's just WP:GOSSIP, "scandal mongering" as our WP:NOT policy calls it, and we must remove it from the encyclopedia.
3. First of all, I wasn't the author of the original prose that had been removed, I just restored it without further editing, so don't accuse me of introducing SYNTH, a tactic I despise. The "we share the same blood" quote from the inauguration speech is eminently relevant to this article because it is one of the rare instances of actual direct expressions of "racial views of Donald Trump", so it deserves inclusion. We can either include it without comment, or with balanced comments from sources making positive and negative interpretations of his statement. Neither approach should involve any editorial synthesis. — JFGtalk04:56, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. You drop the "claimed" weaseling and that'd be acceptable.
2. Sorry, but this is simply NOT gossip. We have New York Times and Washington Post reporting on it. It caused a lot of controversy. You can't just make up arbitrary rules for what you think is "gossip" and then try to exclude text because you WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Anyway, this has been in the article a long time, and by removing this you violated the "consensus required to restore challenged edits" discretionary sanctions so please self-revert.
3. You may not have been the author but you put it back in (I didn't accuse you of "introducing" it, I said you "put it in there", which is correct - so how about YOU don't falsely accuse me of stuff, speaking of tactics). And you're still doing the SYNTH, just now on the talk instead of the article. Hell, you're essentially trying to hold the well sourced text hostage - "your choices are either to remove the well sourced text or let me do my SYNTH". No, these are not the only choices. The obvious choice is to remove the SYNTH. As was done before you reinserted it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:06, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. Okay, will replace "claimed" with "stated" and make the edit.
2. I didn't violate anything: I removed the paragraph, was challenged by you, came here to discuss. Textbook BRD. We happen to disagree whether this content meets the definition of gossip by WP policy (not "arbitrary rules"), fine, so be it. Will open the discussion to wider comments.
3. Look, it's not about me, you or another editor, let's stick to discussing the contents. The inauguration speech contains an explicit statement by Trump about race. Whether you like this statement or not, it exists, and is therefore relevant to an article called "Racial views of Donald Trump". Censoring it is POV. We don't need to add editorial comments around it, which the original text does. How about you suggest a wording that would not give any appearance of synth? — JFGtalk05:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TE - This insistent denial reads as if the talk page is intended for bilateral negotiations to re-write basic WP policy. The fact is that Marek identified and documented the defects, including the textbook example of SYNTH with the paragraph that began "While..." and proceeded to concatenate two separate sources to lead our readers astray. Other editors affirm Marek's fixes, and it's time to drop it and move on to other issues. SPECIFICOtalk14:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, I disagree - it should be removed. This WaPo article states:"Obama’s race is largely responsible for the association between racial resentment and economic anxiety. And this racialized political environment undoubtedly aided Donald Trump’s rise to the top of the Republican Party." The 2nd WaPo article summarized the findings of survey analysts for Monkey Cage, WaPo and The Atlantic stating: "all of whom suggested that those voting for Trump felt what we would call white vulnerability, racial resentment, and mixed in with that, an anxiety about losing cultural status." The Vox article evaluates the Monkey Cage survey: "racial resentment is the biggest predictor of white vulnerability among white millennials." The Monkey Cage survey included responses from 503 African Americans, 510 whites, 505 Latinos and 258 Asian Americans. The questions asked to measure white vulnerability included: 1) whether whites were “economically losing ground through no fault of their own”; 2) whether discrimination against whites was “as big a problem as that against Blacks and other minorities”; and 3) if minorities overtaking whites as the majority of the U.S. population by 2050 would “strengthen or weaken the country.” The survey demonstrated discrimination against whites which ties in racial resentment and white vulnerability. The 12-15-2017 WaPo article linked racial resentment to "political attitudes" in a Slate article which states (my bold): "Tesler has been chronicling what he calls the “racialization” of issues in the Obama era—the extent to which public opinion on topics unrelated to race have taken on a racial castas Obama has staked out positions on them." None of what the survey demonstrated reflects in what our article states: Some studies and surveys have claimed that Trump's political ascendance has made racist attitudes and racial resentment more significant than economic factors in determining party allegiance of voters. Remove it, or state what the cited sources are actually saying.
Yes it is gossip, all opinion-based, not statements of fact.
We need a closer review of the contentious statements in this article to make sure the material accurately reflects what the cited sources say. Atsme📞📧09:03, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Who is "we" VM? Clarity is needed, not blanket statements reflecting only your objections...and please try to understand that MSM (most of which is circular reporting) does not get to make up their own facts. MSM even states that they are claims not facts, and they use in-text attribution to indicate who is making them. That is exactly what WP is supposed to be doing. I strongly suggest a refresher course in the first half of NPOV policy. No one is making anything up, and I can assure you that everything I've said is sourced to RS, some of which are the very sources from which the derogatory statements have been cherrypicked. Please read the most recent comments by other people who are arriving to this article and have challenged the neutrality of it. These outside views are important to achieving NPOV, and I am concerned over the OWN attitudes I've been subjected to here. Atsme📞📧16:37, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"We" is Wikipedia editors active on this article, who else?
And yes clarity is needed - can you be clearer in your comments, because most of them are impossible to understand and other editors are forced to guess as to how they're at all relevant. Several people here have raised this problem with you before. In regard to my statements - they're perfectly clear. There's SYNTH. It needs to be removed. That's it.
As to "MSM", the sources are not making anything up. And no, it's not "circular reporting", whatever the hey that's suppose to be.
And these "other people who are arriving to this article" - are they the sketchy accounts with just a few edits who repeat standard talking disinformation talking points by any chance? Somehow I don't think that will help NPOV at all.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:43, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, SYNTH, UNDUE, and POV content are usually sourced to RS, but that doesn't mean they conform to Wikipedia policy or guidelines. So basically everything you keep saying is irrelevant. This tread is wasting a lot of time, and the real issue has already been addressed -- at least 4 times now. SPECIFICOtalk17:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to news articles in two of most highly-respected newspapers in the world as gossip is stunningly absurd. Such claims reflect on the competence of the editors that make them, and are only worthy of being summarily ignored.- MrX 🖋 18:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do not confuse WIKT:gossip, which is a dictionary definition, with WP:GOSSIP, which is Wikipedia policy, by which all editors must abide. This entry qualifies as item 3 of the policy, "Scandal mongering". Yes, highly-respected newspapers can and do engage in gossip and scandal-mongering. Please note that only the New York Times story of 23 December 2017 actually makes the claims about a June 2017 meeting; the Washington Post only reminds readers of this earlier NY Times piece in January 2018, stating that the shithole incident "lends credence" to the NYT claims. To corroborate the statements made in our article, only the original NYT piece can be used, and barring any independent verification, this second-hand hearsay from unnamed persons does qualify as unsubstantiated gossip. — JFGtalk21:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do not confuse policy shortcuts with actual policy, but do get your story straight because I'm feeling a little gaslit at the moment. The content in question does not fit into any of the five categories of using Wikipedia as a soapbox or for promotion. In fact it's so over-the-top to suggest that citing material in two blue chip news sources is gossip or promotion that I... I'm verklempt!- MrX 🖋 21:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The only problem with the inauguration speech section was the fact that it opens with While Trump was criticized for "running one of the most racially and ethnically divisive campaigns in American history", which has no semantic purpose if not to be contradicted by the rest. Plus, the use of quotes reads far more like scare quotes, so even that bit by itself implies a conclusion not stated in any source. So it's pretty blatant SYNTH per that, but simply removing that bit of text and capitalizing the next word would fix it. As for the rest, I agree with the OP: those are not good edits and should remain out. I'm okay with the "several studies have stated..." wording on the first.
Also -and I understand that this is tangential- there is no dichotomy between Trump's rise being fueled by racism and his ascension to the presidency fueling racism. Those are two separate causalities, there's no need for one to be false if the other is true. Think about being punched in the face. It can be a symptom of conflict escalation, and it can simultaneously result in even more conflict escalation. Alternatively, compare making love for the first time and romantic attachment. Or any of an enormous number of other situations.
And Vox is not necessarily wrong, either. It's pretty apparent to anyone versed in politics that the Obama presidency had an impact on racism in the US, including popularizing the perceived victimhood of whites; a phenomenon that could easily help explain Trump's win in the election. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.19:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@MPants at work: Thanks for your well-reasoned input. Surely racism among U.S. voters may have helped Trump's candidacy, and conversely Trump's rhetoric may have fueled further racism. The quoted Vox article made the first connection only and was therefore misrepresented. Following my discussion with VM, this issue has now been addressed in the prose.[25]
About the section on the inauguration speech, I agree with you that the "While… history" part was unnecessary, although this comment was made by a cited source (The Atlantic),[1] so doesn't qualify as WP:SYNTH. But to avoid any impression of synthesis, I've been arguing that we should simply cite Trump's speech heralding patriotism irrespective of race, unadorned by external commentary. I would propose the following text:
During his inauguration address on January 20, 2017, Trump stated: "Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots."[2]
Sorry, but you can't use a primary source in that way. You can't decide what part of the speech is important or relevant to the subject. It's original research and it's forbidden by policy.- MrX 🖋 21:13, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, and I don't know where you're getting that interpretation of policy from. We certainly can pick out those parts of a primary source which are germane to the subject and selectively quote them, so long as they are WP:DUE, and we don't select them such as to change the meaning. I agree with JFG that this bit in his speech is due, and I don't think the selective quoting changes the meaning of those parts of his speech.
@JFG:Yes, it was culled from a source, but both that particular use of quotes and the context of it's inclusion presented very strongly implied conclusions that were not in that source. Indeed, that source's overall conclusion was that the inauguration speech was dark and deeply disturbing, doing all but calling it the death knell of democracy. I think that's far too much opinion to be useful here, so I think your proposal works much better. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.21:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, you disagree but then you agree? Please clarify, because your second paragraph seems to support my point. WP:PRIMARY is clear: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." WP:SYNTH states "Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." Selecting a partial quote from a speech to pose an editor's counterargument that Trump is not racist is exactly what this policy is meant to prevent.- MrX 🖋 21:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're conflating the subjects of the two paragraphs. The second was not directed at you, but at JFG (hence why I started it by pinging JFG), in response to the comment they made directed at me. I am discussing two different aspects of this issue in the two different paragraphs, so no, they're not at all contradictory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MrX, this entire article is cherrypicked to fit a particular POV which is why so many editors have challenged it. To now say inclusion of Trump's own views on racism is not allowed because it is "cherrypicked" is a bit of a stretch. A statement that is used for its relevancy is not cherrypicked. There is no PAG that supports what you're saying. That's what we do - we use editorial judgment to determine what is relevant/encyclopedic for inclusion in an article and for you to say a relevant statement in a US president's inaugural speech is cherrypicking is well...absurd. Atsme📞📧23:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nope on all fronts. You don't get to dissect a speech and put the gizzard smack dab in the middle of the article where the heart belongs. This is one of the reasons why primary sources should be avoided, in favor of secondary sources of which there is no short supply. Of course you know that, because of your renowned reverence for the PAGs.- MrX 🖋 00:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry - the dissecting was done by EuroNews which published "Key quotes from Donald Trump's inauguration speech" and did some extraction from Donald Trump’s first speech as US president. We certainly can use parts of what they published as a secondary source that fits into the context of this narrative. You might want to take a look at List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations and Trump–Russia_dossier#Allegations, which was published in its entirety in an unreliable source (BuzzFeed), and then with the use of SYNTH a separate list and a section in the main article were created using cherrypicked allegations that fit a particular POV narrative. What was proposed here is not SYNTH, it is editorial judgment that cites a RS and a relevant statement in the speech demonstrating Trump's views on race...and you are now trying to convince editors that doing so is noncompliant with policy? I suggest you cite the policy that supports your position because I say it does not. Trump's views belong in an article about Trump's views. Atsme📞📧00:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MrX: you are not the arbiter of WP policy, and it's very clear that the three other people discussing this particular question all disagree with you. Further, I would bet good money that, were you to bring this to` a more public forum, the community input there would be the same that you're getting here. We quote excerpts from speeches, passages and publications constantly. Almost every single quote on this site is "picked" from a larger work. You have absolutely no policy ground to stand on, here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.02:19, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not the arbiter, nor are you—consensus is. Your understanding of the applicable policies seems flawed. With three editors opposing this cherry-pick, I don't see it going into the article anytime soon.- MrX 🖋 03:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just becoming obnoxious: There's only you and SPECIFICO opposing it and SPECIFICO's argument boils down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT, while there's fourthree editors (myself, Volunteer Marek, JFG and Atsme) supporting it, and you have yet to quote or even name a policy that prevents us from quoting the speech, most likely because you damn well know there is no such fucking policy. I really don't understand what your problem is here, but you have no policy leg to stand on. You don't get to dictate what policy is to the rest of us with your "we're not doing this. Period" bullshit so just knock it off and either engage like a grown-up or go fuck off and edit something else, kay? Thnks. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.14:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pants, it's not constructive and it's not WP:CIVIL to accuse a colleague of putting personal preference above policy and article improvement. You know better than that. If my objection was unclear to you, a simple request for clarification would have enabled you to make a constructive criticism of my view. My initial comment got moved way down by folks interspersing indented comments. It was "That text is utterly vacuous and communicates nothing at all about anything at all." -- it's an amateur speechwriter's tangle of words that sound like they come from memorable speeches but don't refer to anything. There's some kind of metaphor about "our hearts" and "the color of our skin" and other things that sound like they might work in a memorable speech, but they're not used to convey any meaning. Nobody can parse what's intended by this remark. And that is why we don't have RS pointing it out as a noteworthy part of the speech or a noteworthy statement by Pres. Trump. It's cherrypicked nonsense. There was plenty of commentary about the address that can be used to characterize and illustrate what it was about and what POTUS had to say. SPECIFICOtalk14:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pants, it's not constructive and it's not WP:CIVIL to accuse a colleague of putting personal preference above policy and article improvement. First off, I haven't done that. Second, you do it on an almost daily basis. Physician, heal thyself. Third, almost everyone else involved in AmPol editing does it with some regularity. Get over it, cupcake.
If my objection was unclear to you... It was quite clear. You said that Trump's comments were vacuous and meaningless, which is a value judgement and has no place here except as an example of an argument editors are advised to avoid using. Furthermore, if you want to make a WP:WEIGHT-centered argument based on a value judgement of those comments, it will become apparent that their vacuous meaninglessness is a reason for inclusion, not exclusion. If we exclude them, then it's up to the reader's imagination what the "other side" of this issue is. If we include them, then we make it clear that on one side, you have a large and diverse assortment of reliable sources saying "this is the most objectively racist president in modern US history" and on the other side you have said president doing the political equivalent of saying "I know you are, but what am I?" It helps characterize the nature of the issue, by demonstrating quite clearly that one side has far more logical and rhetorical substance.
To set the record straight, Volunteer Marek does not support this [26], so my original statement that three editors oppose this cherry-pick was correct.- MrX 🖋 17:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I already struck that part of my comment, so we're sitting at 3 v 3. Well, the inclusion side has pointed out that these are comments Trump made about race; highly germane to the subject. I'm still waiting for a policy-based reason from the exclusion side, though I suspect that one won't be forthcoming. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MPants, it's not personal opinion to note that the cherrypicked snippet from the Inaugural Address is meaningless. "Open heart" is on its face some sort of metaphor, but it's not clear what is meant by it. Then the snippet is full of abstract undefined terms, e.g. Patriotism (does this mean persons who support assault rifle ownership? People who oppose abortion rights? People who oppose the "travel ban"? People who favor a path to citizenship for Dreamers?) So if those words are to have any meaning at all to our readers, they would be included in respect of some secondary independent RS interpretation or comment on them. An encyclopedia article is not a stack of Tarot cards. Meaning should be clear. That cherrypicked bit is not conveying any "racial view" of Trump to an English-speaking reader. That's not a political point of view, it's not a personal preference as to what "I like" and it's not anything else that is deprecated in the link you use to dismiss my rejection of this text. SPECIFICOtalk18:04, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Open heart" is on its face some sort of metaphor, but it's not clear what is meant by it. I'm glad to see you've finally realized that, although I have to admit it's still a little disconcerting to see an English speaker fail to understand an idiom many of us learned sometime around kindergarten. Perhaps this will help.
Then the snippet is full of abstract undefined terms, e.g. Patriotism (does this mean persons who support assault rifle ownership? People who oppose abortion rights? People who oppose the "travel ban"? People who favor a path to citizenship for Dreamers?) Umm, wow. Another disconcerting moment. Again, perhaps this will help. I can recommend some remedial reading courses if you think you'd find them useful.
So if those words are to have any meaning at all to our readers, they would be included in respect of some secondary independent RS interpretation or comment on them. I accept that you're having difficulty parsing the meaning of many of these words and phrases, but to project that same difficulty onto others is untoward. I think our readers will understand phrases like "open your heart" and words like "patriotism" without too much help.
An encyclopedia article is not a stack of Tarot cards. Meaning should be clear. In case you're not getting this: I don't see anyone else in this thread or anywhere else expressing the view that the comments quoted, or indeed the inaugural speech as a whole was difficult to understand. I think perhaps you may be confusing the typical insincerity of political speech with some sort of semantic vacuousness, but I assure you that the speech is -while undoubtedly as insincere as any political speech- perfectly intelligible.
That cherrypicked bit is not conveying any "racial view" of Trump to an English-speaking reader. On the contrary, it quite clearly conveys to me the view that Trump does not view himself as racist. It also conveys the fact that Trump's response to the overwhelming number of critics pointing out his own racism is to give a single throwaway line in his inauguration speech.
But let us assume for the moment that I am unnaturally gifted with the ability to read the obvious meaning of plain text and to consider the context when judging someone's meaning. Does that, then, mean that you have a reliable source stating that the views Trump described (that "patriotism can eliminate prejudice", mind, not "I'm not racist") is not his actual view? One sufficient to pass BLP muster? Because while we both may believe without reservation that Trump frequently lies about his own views of race, we cannot base our content decisions on our own original research. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.18:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No it's something about open heart surgery or whatever, but he's not a doctor and if we all bleed patriot-blood then what's the point of his message and to be perfectly blunt, this is so far from conveying any encyclopedic content that this thread is a pure waste of our scarce editor resources and cannot possibly produce anything of value tou our readers. Please spare us any OR as to your interpretation of the crypto-metaphor nonsense in the snippet and move on. SPECIFICOtalk22:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Open-heart surgery? Pity I can't have some of what you're smoking…[FBDB] Seriously, if you feel that your time is wasted by discussing article contents with your fellow Wikipedians, then you are totally free to leave this thread and be more productive elsewhere. — JFGtalk22:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for supporting the edit, but this Euronews source is no better: it just selectively prints excerpts from the full speech, and adds no commentary or "world perspective" that we can use. — JFGtalk22:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the source does the selecting, it is acceptable. I went through a similar argument last year. WP editors cannot choose "key statements" to use from a primary source but a secondary RS certainly can, and that is what makes the phrase and this source acceptable for us to use. Atsme📞📧22:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Adding - take a look at Trump–Russia_dossier#Reactions to specific allegations - more proof that as long as the primary was published by secondary sources, we can use a summary of key points RS used. The dossier probably includes blatant SYNTH to gather the commentary...I haven't checked it. No deadline. Ironic how the article is about Trump's views but we can't use his views? Ha! Atsme📞📧22:28, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SPECIFICO...I know you mean well, but mocking Trump's inaugural speech and comparing it to your nephew's beagle is quite a stretch, it puts your big toe right on the line. You know I appreciate the occasional "fun quip" and oh lorty I love an injection of levity when editing "volatile" articles...but this isn't one of those times. 🤗 Seriously, if we're going to stay with the title, Racial views of Donald Trump, then we need to include his racial views and less of what others claim are his racial views...or rename the article. Can't have it both ways. Atsme📞📧22:58, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To give you the solemn reply you deserve, I see no mention of "race" in that green quote box. If POTUS makes 100 public statements and an average of 6 tweeters a day, which ones are noteworthy for encyclopedic exposition here? Not one a few editors pick out that, like, doesn't even mean anything. SPECIFICOtalk23:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Prejudice - it actually covers the sections of this article better because Muslim is not a race, immigration policy is not a race, the pardon of Joe Arpaio is not a race, and on and on. Major holes in your argument - will not withstand the test of time. Atsme📞📧23:22, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you hopped on the wrong tram, my dear. What section were you looking to post this?
You forgot what this was about? See #3 click on the diff, or scroll up to the start of this thread - a subsection in History.
The quote from the speech is cherrypicked and not established noteworthy by the bulk of mainstream RS. Under the circumstances, to follow up on your statement that it communicates POTUS "racial view" -- could you please paraphrase that view to a) verify your claim, and b) lay the basis for a discussion as to whether that's related to his racial views. Bear in mind that "patriot" is not a "race". Thanks. SPECIFICOtalk17:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"1-4 studies is not numerous." - your opinion/original research. Sources disagree since they actually use the term "numerous" (the "1-4" - which one is it "1" or "4"? - highlighted in the article are just representative)
That's not what "verifiability" means on Wikipedia. Or in real world actual. But feel free to keep making up rules that do not reflect actual Wikipedia policy.
1 - RS aren't required to avoid peacock phrases to bolster their point, so "some" is an acceptable substitute for "numerous" for use in Wikipedia.
2 - I don't have a strong opinion whether this is included or excluded. Another option is merging this into another section (the one that talks about Haiti).
3 - Remove per WP:OPED. It's like writing, "While Hillary Clinton was criticized for ignoring Trump voters, she actually reached out to them in a campaign speech." Even if you could source both clauses, this should be removed. FallingGravity18:44, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the proposed quote from POTUS "Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots."@JFG, Atsme, and MjolnirPants: Please state how and why these words present a view about "race". Without guesses about what he really meant to say. Thank you. SPECIFICOtalk18:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well one thing I know for sure is that he was not talking about the millions of brown people who lived here long before we arrived because he said that the Americans settled between a great ocean and a vast wilderness, and he was not talking about the black people we imported as slaves because he said Americans have always stood for and always strived for freedom. Gandydancer (talk) 19:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My point has nothing to do with slaves or race, etc. My point is that political speeches are just a lot of happy horseshit that no one with their head screwed on right believes, including the politician that gives them. I'm pretty sure it was in Philip Roth's Our Gang where every time a politician made a speech Roth would just fill a half a page with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... Gandydancer (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of that. But I fail to see how it relates to the assertion that comments on "black or brown or white" people aren't related to race. Whether or not a politician's speech is sincere has nothing to do with the topic of his speech, and I mean that to be taken quite literally in both possible senses; I wouldn't trust a politician telling me what he wants for dinner.
MPants, I was being sarcastic. You'd think that I would have learned by now that sarcastic comments are almost always misunderstood. (As an aside, I know we're not supposed to get too personal here but I can hardly say how pissed off I was at these words of his - How dare he speak for minorities considering his record of total disregard for all that is important to them. The Dakota pipeline for example where he reversed Obama's stop order on it just days after elected. This and the Dreamers comment made me grrr. The rest of it just ran right off my back.) Gandydancer (talk) 23:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you were being sarcastic about political speeches being "just a lot of happy horseshit", then you are saying that you believe it's possible Trump was being sincere. If you were being sarcastic about Our Gang, then I'm afraid that's not how sarcasm works (the literal truth isn't sarcasm). If you were being sarcastic about The Bern, then so was I and none of that affects my response. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.16:03, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So we can assign folks to a "race" with a spectrometer? You know, don't you, that there are plenty of Sicilians whose skin is less reflective than plenty of North Africans and Tibetans? Even our WP articles on the subject of race would quickly convince a thoughtful editor that such an interpretation is based on nothing defensible. SPECIFICOtalk20:37, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gandydancer, please...my family all the way back in time did not "import" slaves - they were slaves...and so were women of all colors and many still are to this day. Let's keep things in perspective. Atsme📞📧21:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Marek - JFG is largely right; #1 is not representative of the cite and I think should be deleted as a bad job rather than efforts to save it; #2 'someone said that someone said that Trump said' sounds a lot like gossip, and the inclusion here looks a lot like WP:GOSSIP scandalmongering, so it's at least debateable/removable as suspect; #3 - I'd say drop the lead-in as not in the cite, but that snippet was widely reported and highlighted. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1, No he's actually not. The text represents the cite IF it says "numerous" like the source does. JFG (and you) apparently want to change that to the weasel word "some" (which falsely implies that "some" studies found something else) which is NOT what the source says. It takes some chutzpah to advocate for misrepresenting the source and then claim that the original text "is not representative of the cite".
2, No that's not what this is and this info is cited to reliable sources. One more time - WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT isn't an argument. It's not gossip. Please stop being ridiculous, since that sort of makes a serious conversation impossible.
Hello, all. I’ve been gone for two weeks and came back to find this thread being discussed on my talk page. Right now I don’t have time or inclination to pick my way through the wall of text here. I’ll just comment on the three edits that started this thread.
1. Numerous studies and surveys have shown that since Trump's ascendance in the Republican Party, racist attitudes and racial resentment have become more significant than economic factors in determining voters' party allegiance. was changed to Some studies and surveys have claimed that Trump's political ascendance has made racist attitudes and racial resentment more significant than economic factors in determining party allegiance of voters.. I strongly object to the new edit stating that Trump’s political ascendance CAUSED ("has made") the increased importance of racist attitudes. That’s a classic example of post hoc ergo propter hoc - the logical fallacy that since these two things happened at the same time, therefore one of them caused the other. The original sentence states the corellation of the two things without suggesting that one of them caused the other, and IMO we should change back to that wording. I am OK with changing “numerous” to “some”. I don’t like “claimed” which is a classic weasel word; how about “suggested” or “demonstrated”?
2. I agree with removing this paragraph. It is supported by two anonymous sources and denied by three others; that’s too indefinite to include.
3. I agree with the suggestion here that we include the quote from his inaugural address, without the introductory clause intended to contradict it. Yes, it’s true he was reading from prepared remarks and may not have meant a word of it. But the words came out of his mouth, they were specifically about race and promoting racial harmony, and they should be included here. That is not “cherry picking” any more than all the other quotes we have include here (shithole countries, rapists and murderers, etc.) are cherry picking. --MelanieN (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WRT to you point #3, there is big difference between taking a quote from a secondary source and a Wikipedia editor selecting a quote from a primary source. Find a good secondary sources that highlight this quote as indicative of Trump's view on race, and I will gladly support it. - MrX 🖋 17:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:SKYBLUE. Except for SPECIFICO, no-one in their right mind would question that this is Trump talking about race. We don't need a source to state that this is Trump talking about race, and we don't need for this quote to be accurate or truthful or written by Trump himself for us to quote it, else we'd never quote any politician. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.18:19, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Great, Mr. Pants. Now you're accusing me of being in my right mind?? Really? At any rate, in case MelanieN chooses to continue on this thread -- and I would not advise it, frankly, -- the issue about the Inaugural Address can be summarized as follows. An editor unapologetically selected a primary-sourced snippet from a NYTimes video of the address without also citing or including any of the secondary reporting that gave context and meaning to the cherrypicked words. Then the (secondary) accompanying NYT article was also cited but nothing from it was added or acknowledged for article text. So the issue is whether this article should be an editor-curated selection of quotes from Trump or whether it should present secondary discussion of his racial views according to the weight of RS discussion of them.
This article is about Trump's views, just as other articles are about for example Shakespeare's plays orGreek mythology. Such articles don't just post an anthology of primary source extracts. They present commentary interpretation and evaluation of the subject. Some editors appear to advocate lots of editor-selected primary source extracts, but that is exactly what we should not be doing. We need to present a balanced discussion of the subject, not a primary exposition of the subject itself -- and especially not one that's selected through the Original Research of WP editors. The concern that published negative evaluations of Trump's views are "attacks" makes no sense. We should balance such views in due proportion with evaluations that see his views on race more positively. We should look for such references. We don't have lots of positive fodder for such balance on a broad array of subjects that are commonly viewed as negative. The racial views of Trump is only one such topic on WP.
Finally, this inaugural address was widely viewed as a kind of hamfisted amateur speechwriting effort by Miller and Bannon and not very articulate about the views or policies of the new administration. But there are secondary sources we can use to discuss whatever racial view grist it may offer. SPECIFICOtalk19:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is no question that Trump was referring to race. What is disputable is whether he expressed his actual views. One would think that if they were his actual views, it would be trivial for our army of Wikipedia editors to find some sources that say as much. Speaking of spectral analysis, skies can be black, gray, white, orange, yellow, red...- MrX 🖋 18:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What is disputable is whether he expressed his actual views. I've already addressed this. The views he expressed were as follows: Patriotism overcomes or destroys prejudice and American of all races can be patriots. So find a reliable source that disputes that he actually believes those things, and you've started a reasonable argument for exclusion. But even then, you'd still need to find a policy-based reason not to quote deceptive statements. That first view is so incredibly naive and stupid that, personally, I have no trouble believing that he actually holds it to be true. The second one is just so obviously true that I doubt anyone who isn't a self-proclaimed racist fails to believe it. So you have your work cut out for you, if you want to defend this ridiculous position. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.20:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Status of disputed edits
Back to editing after a couple days break, I see that discussion is still vibrant around here… Just for the record, here's what happened to the 3 issues raised by Volunteer Marek at the beginning of this thread:
1. After some back and forth with Marek and other editors, I have corrected a few days ago the source misrepresentation (cause vs consequence) and changed the quantifier from "numerous" to "several".[27] Text currently in the lead is: Several studies and surveys have stated that racist attitudes and racial resentment have fueled Trump's political ascendance, and have become more significant than economic factors in determining party allegiance of voters. This version correctly paraphrases the cited sources and has not been significantly challenged by further comments; I believe we can put item 1 to rest.
2. There is disagreement among editors whether rude comments in a June 2017 meeting, as reported by the New York Times on December 23, are significant enough to merit inclusion. Some editors argue this episode is secondary hearsay which lacks weight, others insist that the source is reliable therefore the comments need to stay. Will assess potential consensus below.
3. A section I restored (originally written by somebody else), citing Trump's comment about patriotism being independent of race during his inauguration address, was challenged per WP:SYNTH. I suggested to remove the While Trump was criticized… intro which gave an impression of synthesis, although the cited source made that argument, so it's technically not synthesis. Regardless, it's probably better to simply cite Trump's speech without commentary: "Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots." However the unadorned quote was also criticized by some editors as "not being about race", which sounds rather weird. When a sentence starts with "no matter if you're black, brown or white", it's a pretty direct way to say "no matter your race". Given the paucity of actual direct comments by Trump about races and racism, I believe this quote is eminently WP:DUE in an article called "Racial views of Donald Trump" (noting that there was no consensus to change the title in the recent move request). However, some editors are strongly opposed to citing this part of the speech, so perhaps we need a survey or an RfC.
In brief:
1. Issue was resolved a few days ago already.
2. 6 editors have argued to remove the snippet (JFG, Birtig, Atsme, PackMecEng, Markbassett, MelanieN), 2 want to keep it (Volunteer Marek, Only in death does duty end). MrX and Falling Gravity said we can live with or without it, Mjolnir Pants and SPECIFICO did not comment on this question. This looks like rough consensus to remove, and I will proceed.
I endorsed Marek's view early in this stupid thread. I have no idea whether the rest of your count is correct. Please be accurate in the future. SPECIFICOtalk15:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
3. Debate about including Trump's unadorned quote has been blurred by considerations of the deprecated synth-looking commentary, and considerations whether we can select the relevant part of a speech at all, whether the words should be attributed to speechwriters, or whether white black and brown beagles also bleed patriot blood! I'll call a quick survey to clarify where we're standing.
No it doesn't. It is irresponsible to make edits without even reading the article. You also removed information from the SPLC saying it had nothing to do with race, for example:
It was reported that there has been an increase in "verbal harassment, the use of slurs and derogatory language, and disturbing incidents involving swastikas, Nazi salutes and Confederate flags". "Nearly a third of the incidents were motivated by anti-immigrant sentiment and anti-black incidents were the second-most common, with frequent references to lynching.'
Attribution to specific journalists is only appropriate when the sources are opinion columns. In this case, the journalists are reporting on behalf of their news organizations, not themselves. It would be misleading to suggest to readers that some material only reflects the views of the individual journalists, when in fact there are backed by the news organizations themselves (researchers, reporters, fact checkers, editors, etc.).- MrX 🖋 16:06, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, MrX - that isn't quite accurate. In-text attribution is required for other reasons as well, not just "Op-eds", including any biased opinion in any article WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, and per WP:V, If there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation. Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view. Indeed, many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to summarize what the reliable sources say. Perhaps such a misunderstanding of our 3 core content policies are why we're having this NPOV issue? Atsme📞📧16:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, I never said that attribution was only required for opinion pieces; I said "to specific journalists" is not necessary, and I explained why. The writer of the source article do not own the views they write about. Also, are there actually sourced viewpoints in opposition to the text in question?- MrX 🖋 17:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"The writer of the source article do not own the views they write about." This is some rather mind-bending original research, but let's just stick to Wikipedia policies here. Also, since you seem interested in adding opposing viewpoints to the article, should we present these viewpoints from notable commentators, or should they just be removed because of "UNDUE"? FallingGravity19:03, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Any third-party commentary or opinion in an article like this should be supported by at least two or three sources, otherwise it's probably WP:UNDUE. If you're not able to differentiate journalistic analysis from commentary and opinion, then this may not be the article for you.- MrX 🖋 23:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Time to review the actual definition WP:UNDUE: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Note that there's no "published in two or three sources" requirement, just a "published by reliable sources" requirement. FallingGravity00:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SPECIFICO, multiple sources are required to establish WP:N. If it's an article in WP, it has probably already met the requirements for N, so multiple sources are no longer required...unless it's subject to WP:PUBLICFIGURE, If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. If the subject has denied such allegations, that should also be reported. Credibility of a RS is determined by the credibility of the publisher, and/or credentials of the author. The depth of mention is also a consideration for inclusion. A common misconception is that when a source is determined to be "reliable" that determination is a fixed, absolute judgment - not so. Reliability depends on two main criteria - (1) the source itself and (2) how it is used. WP:RSN cannot say unequivocally that a source is reliable for all purposes. If material is challenged, or likely to be challenged, it must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed. See WP:BLPSOURCEAtsme📞📧02:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. 2-3 sources is a reasonable threshold for determining weight. I've mentioned this principle in many, many talk page discussions and I think this is the first time that anyone has expressed disagreement with it.- MrX 🖋 00:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's also stated on many of our policy and guidelines pages and in numerous essays. We must refrain from cherrypicking primary content and finding the silver bullet fringe or clueless theory. There are many topic areas in which to edit where this is not much of a problem. But in politics and recent events articles it's no good. SPECIFICOtalk00:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MrX, choosing 2 or 3 RS that support your particular POV is not the intention of our PAGs. While we can use biased RS we must not limit ourselves only to those sources to determine UNDUE and BALANCE re:NPOV. Furthermore, the opinions I've seen that some sources are not RS because a particular group of editors prefer another source (which happens to support their POV) or because there are more sources that "appear" to support that same POV does not determine WEIGHT. Most sources mirror a single source which must be considered when determining weight. AP is cited frequently so while there may be 20 RS referring to an AP article/report, it is still only 1 RS. Atsme📞📧01:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not suggesting that editors choose sources to support their POV. Syndicated content should indeed be treated like a single source, but if the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and ABC News each write stories about Trump's racial history, then those have to be treated as separate sources.- MrX 🖋 01:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Any subjective statements or judgements made by a journalist writing a news story should rightly be attributed to the publisher, not the journalist. They write on behalf of their publisher, not on behalf of themselves. This is why opinion columns were traditionally given to highly respected, senior journalists; to reward their efforts with the ability to speak for themselves, instead of toeing the company line. So the statement "The writer of the source article do not own the views they write about" might not make sense to everyone, but it's certainly based on the actual workings of journalism. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.23:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does Vox even have opinion columns? Most Vox articles I've read are a mix of reporting and commentary. Moreover, this commentary appears to be coming from the article's author, not opinions emanating from the monolithic Vox Media. FallingGravity01:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't this be even more reason to also attribute the author (you know, the person who actually wrote the commentary), not just Vox (the website that edited and published said article)? We are doing a disservice for our readers by omitting the person who actually wrote the statements we're quoting. FallingGravity21:43, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. We give the citation which should always include the author's name when possible. It's not like we're hiding it from the reader. Besides, even if such a statement were entirely the product of the author (and I believe that most such statements are), the outlet itself (via the editors) has to endorse it for publication. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.21:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
UNDUE & IMBALANCE is a concern in the following sections, so rather than tag each, I thought it best to bring it to the TP, and point out the reasons this article is riddled with NPOV.
Central Park jogger case - imbalance by omission of Trump's actual views - we already have a main article about the crime/injustice which also includes perceptions of Trump's views but that article isn't my focus. My concern is over the omission of the basis for Trump's views which includes the Chief of Police report, and the position of the Bloomberg administration.
"Advantage" of well-educated Blacks - remove because it is editorializing; worse yet, the cited source is questionable at best as it is the Real Estate section of Fortune, hardly where one looks for a scholarly or expert analysis. The full quote is: “A well-educated black has a tremendous advantage over a well-educated white in terms of the job market…if I was starting off today, I would love to be a well-educated black, because I really do believe they have the actual advantage today. “[1] While it is not a politically correct statement, it is not WP's responsibility to Wikipedia:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS. Our job is to use editorial judgment regarding what RS say and present them via NPOV.
Birtherism - remove, it has nothing to do with race. The articles in Politico and BBC (and others) clearly demonstrate the focus was about disqualifying Obama's candidacy based on Article 2 of the US Constitution, not racism. To say otherwise is editorializing based on speculation.
Hispanic judge - remove, not racism. Bias is not racism (to make a point, neither is partisanship which is also bias - to make it anything more is editorializing).
Somali refugees - remove, not racism. The cited source doesn't even mention racism.[2] The focus was Islamic terrorism, and Trump was accused of disparaging immigrants. The sources are cherrypicked to push a negative POV while other sources like The Courant are not cited. It's easy to pull up nothing but negative sources in a Google search asking if "Trump is a racist" vs "Trump is not a racist" - both should be used in an effort to achieve NPOV, BALANCE & WEIGHT. Regardless, this section needs to be removed.
Section 2
Immigration policy - remove...it has nothing to do with Trump's racial views. Terrorism concerns have nothing to do with race.
Black Caucus - more of the same imbalance and 100% negativity. If not written to achieve NPOV, then it really needs to be removed. The NYTimes' opinion that Trump's question "Are they friends of yours?" is somehow racially motivated is clearly opinion not a statement of fact. WP is not a SOAPBOX to promote racial advocies, or moral or racial equivalency arguments, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, a good cause or a bad cause. We write only the facts, and avoid editorializing. What the Black Caucus thinks of Trump belongs in Congressional Black Caucus, not in Racial views of Donald Trump.
Pardon of Joe Arpaio - again, not racist. I fail to see how profiling Mexicans to prevent illegal immigration along the Mexican border is racist. It's profiling not a racial issue. Profiling could also include men with tattoos, people 5'9" wearing hoodies, or teens wearing their pants down to their knees.
Charlottesville rally - He did not condone it. MSM expected his condemnation and criticism to be immediate, before anyone knew exactly what happened but how is that not a rush to judgment? I also understand that it shouldn't matter because some believe supremacists do not deserve any consideration, but that isn't how it works in the US (regardless of our personal views) and it certainly isn't what WP is all about (NPOV, dispassionate tone, etc) - our job is to present the facts in compliance with our 3 core content policies.
Elizabeth Warren - not racist...political. It was a rude insult to a political adversary and a balance of sources chosen per NPOV explain why. Perhaps an article titled Rude comments by Donald Trump would be more appropriate for WP?
Section 3
"Shithole countries" - no proof he ever said that beyond anecdotal claims. We know he said something, but it is not WP's job to determine exactly what it was he said - we report what we know to be statements of fact. If a disparaging remark, we use in-text attribution, and we include the denials for BALANCE & WEIGHT. One Democrat attended that meeting and 2 Republicans denied the allegations made by that Democrat as did Trump. We aren't even sure the term was "shithole". Furthermore, it wasn't "racial" - it was disparaging toward poverty/war stricken countries. How is that racial? Common sense.
Impact - remove, because it cannot be proven that any of it is a result of Trump's racial views which have not been identified in this article to begin with so what are we doing exactly? This section is total POV via editorializing. Imagine an article that included the "impacts" of Bill Clinton's extra-marital affairs with Lewinsky, where there is actual legal evidence and admission? There are plenty of news sources that blame the lack of follow-thru impeachment by the Senate on the continuing sexual abuse by politicians.
Effects on students - remove. The sources mirror SPLC which is an advocacy. NPOV does not allow us to promote advocies.
Reactions by the Congressional Black Caucus - remove - how many times do we include the Black Caucus reactions?
Defenses of Donald Trump - if this article is about the Racial views of Donald Trump, why does he need to defend what has not yet been presented? What are his "racial views"? All I've seen are criticisms, most not even based on his "racial views."
Analysis - remove...it is nothing more than detractors making derogatory comments based in political opinion. To even include an analysis by Journalists and pundits is POV and advocacy.
I disagree with each and every one of these points. They're indicative of misunderstanding and/or misapplication of policies and guidelines, false premises, ipse dixit assertions, tu quoque reasoning, already settled matters, and original research.- MrX 🖋 00:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree all - We can only stay with the RS on this issue and not create original material or base the article on biased reporting from agenda driven sources. I feel that an non-NPOV is being put forward without building consensus or in some of these points, basing it on available evidence. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 01:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FallingGravity, NPOV and WP:PUBLICFIGURE are inseparable from WP:BLP, all of which are at issue here. If I called an individual RfC for each of the 17 sections, it would take nearly 1-1/2 yrs. to correct the noncompliance and that is unacceptable. In addition to BLP issues that are created because of noncompliance with NPOV, editor consensus does not override our non-negotiable NPOV policy. Atsme📞📧03:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I broke it up into 3 sections so it wouldn't seem overwhelming. That way we can focus on 1-5 first, then move to the next section of 5, then to the final 7.Atsme📞📧03:20, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dividing it up, does not make a difference, given [28] and [29] and all the other very long record of actions and comments. Just focus for a moment on Birtherism and consider for a second that Sen. John McCain's citizenship was never called into question by Trump, even though he was born in Coco Solo, Panama. The fact is if even one of your parents is a U.S. citizen, you are by right a citizen from birth unless you give it up; it does not matter where you are born; unless of course you are a Black man running for President, it would appear. How else does Birtherism make sense but in the light of racism, for that is the sole differential factor, given Obama's mother was a U.S. citizen. We can go down ever point, but they will end the same way, with racial bias being a major factor in differential treatment. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 04:35, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We don't editorialize, and we don't speculate that racism is the reason Obama's citizenship was challenged as a presidential candidate - being a natural born citizen is a requirement which has nothing to do with color or creed - the only race that's important is the presidential race. As for the citizenship of other presidential candidates being challenged - the citizenship of Ted Cruz was called into question and so was his father's past - had nothing to do with race. McCain's citizenship was called into question - had nothing to do with race. Barry Goldwater's citizenship was challenged when he was a presidential candidate in '64 - was racism an issue then? The Birtherism section needs to go as do the other sections in the article that have -0- to do with race. Atsme📞📧07:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Barry Goldwater being Jewish, so yes it was, just as Ted Cruz being Cuban. If you are white in the USA, like John McCain, you are given a free pass so it seems. This differential treatment is not explainable in any other way, but racism. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wow - did I read your comment correctly? What are editors supposed to think when you say white people like McCain are given a free pass? That is unacceptable in a discussion about NPOV issues in a BLP about a white president - I'm beginning to think we're getting closer to discovering the cause of our issues. FYI, then Senator Obama was a co-sponsor of the bill that cleared-up the confusion about McCain's citizenship. It had nothing to do with race. Read the Natural-born-citizen clause. McCain was legally a US citizen at birth, and so was/is everyone else who was/is born under those conditions - regardless of race. On the other hand, Cruz's mother was a US citizen but his father wasn't. He was simply employed in Canada when Cruz was born. Cruz held dual citizenship but because his status was challenged as a presidential candidate, he gave up his Canadian citizenship. Huge difference, and again, none of it based on racism. Atsme📞📧16:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To pretend that racial bias does not exist in the U.S.A., is to be blind to historical reality. I recall a tale of an interaction between Obama and Biden; Biden noted that Obama had been slighted by someone, and was a bit upset; Obama reminded Biden that the racial bias in the U.S.A. works both ways and if it were not of that fact, he may not have become President. Obama said, "You have to take the good with the bad". This is honesty, but you are pushing a revisionist history that sees everyone as equal; which is not yet a reality, not yet. Of course, someone closer to the color-line sees a reality of racial privilege that still happens to this day; O', and it's not just the U.S.A., but many places and lands. Walk a mile in the shoes of a person of color and see; be it France or Texas, it is a different experience, this is what I have experienced as a Mestizo/Métis. Racial bias still exists. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 16:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You missed my point, CW. WP is neither the place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, nor is it a WP:SOAPBOX. Racial bias should not exist here on Wikipedia - we leave our biases at login. This article has NPOV issues, and thanks to the RfC (I assume) more and more editors are becoming aware of the problems. There are sections that belong elsewhere that are being used to describe racism and have nothing at all to do with racism. See my list of 17 items above. If editors are unable to determine the differences between racism and border security or terrorism, they should not be editing this article. I am very dismayed by your responses. Atsme📞📧17:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Racial bias exists out there, that is the point, and Trumps actions as well as his words are a part of that real world which your wishing can not erase. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Then please stop wasting our time. We have NPOV issues that need to be corrected. If you don't want to collaborate, then please stop interrupting others from doing what needs to be done. It is really beginning to smell like OWN. Atsme📞📧22:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the best way to stop these accusations as to whether things are "racist" is to clearly define the scope of this article. If we expand it to something broader then people won't raise these concerns again, but if we don't then we need to make sure we can defend the inclusions and omissions objectively. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of the article is defined. It hasn't changed. It's Donald Trump's well-documented history of racially-charged remarks and racially-motivated actions. It's not a coincidence that a small minority of editors who tried to get the article deleted at AfD are now trying to get it deleted piece by piece by making broad, unfounded claims of WP:NPOV violations. These unfounded claims are based on original research and personal preference rather than reliable sources. It's starting to look like tendentiousness.- MrX 🖋 22:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Defined the way you want it to be, MrX - not the way it should be per NPOV. Emir of Wikipedia - I agree with you, so what is the next step. There is a small group of editors here who refuge to budge - WP:OWN - despite the fact that the majority of the subtopics in the main History section are unrelated to race, but have taken on a racial cast apparently to fit a particular POV. Worse yet, the article is not even about Trump's views; rather, it's about the views of his detractors and what they think of Trump, apparently to further their own political agenda. I'm not quite sure why this article hasn't been deleted as an attack page, but something needs to be done. I'm open to your suggestions - do we take it to NPOV/N now that discussion has hit a dead end? Atsme📞📧22:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the next step is to not discount other peoples views by saying that some small group or minority of editors are acting in a certain way. We should use this talkpage to comment on the content, if an editor or editors are stonewalling the improvement of the project then report them elsewhere. The scope of the article should fit NPOV, but whether it should be just about racial statements or something broader is not a neutrality issue. We can include commentary on Trumps views in this article instead of just simply listing them as long as the views are from RSs and not our own. This article survived a lengthy AfD but I accept that we can improve it. A RfC could be a better option than NPOV/N but lets give this another day or two of discussion, not everybody will be commenting in the first day. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not discounting the views of the minority, but we do work by consensus. The minority can try to influence consensus by making arguments that convey an understanding of our policies, or present new information from sources, but repackaging the same arguments with vague waves to policy shortcuts is a waste of everyone's time. I think the scope of the article is about right, but if there is a solid argument for broadening it, I'm all ears. The goal is to have an informative article of the subject that represents the body of available sources.- MrX 🖋 23:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Atsme: That's your opinion, and you notice that your opinion has not gained much traction as of late. The subject of the article was discussed on talk:Donald Trump. I know, because I started the discussion. If you want to influence consensus, you can't just throw around TLA's without any substance behind your arguments and make sweeping claims contrary to existing consensus, and expect to be taken seriously. A good content argument starts with a reasonable premise backed by reliable sources, and then builds on that foundation toward some level of consensus. That's not happening here.- MrX 🖋 22:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Shithole countries"
"Shithole countries" is not a racial statement; it is a statement about the level of development of particular nations. Not races. The UN's human development index is likewise not a statement about race. "Shithole countries" is obviously noteworthy, but it does not belong on Trump's "racial views" page; it belongs on Trump's political views or immigration policy page. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that anything Trump did or said that resulted in accusations of racism from or reported by RSes belongs on this page because we are not expected to judge whether or not such statements or actions were germane to Trump's racial views; we are expected to let the reliable sources judge that for us. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree - political opposition makes everything about racism when it isn't, and I have cited RS that have pointed out that fact on this TP. We are supposed to exercise editorial judgment, not blindly repeat what journalists and pundits say, especially when there are known biases. Our job is NPOV and getting the article right. I also pointed out in my list above where some RS that were cited don't even mention racism. It is a major problem, and it needs to be fixed. Atsme📞📧17:35, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If RSes call it racist or report that it's widely called racist, then us not including it here is a form of WP:OR, as it's us basically disagreeing with those sources in order to determine content here. That's not even remotely acceptable. If the majority of sources don't identify it as racist, then we can say that. But we can't simply exclude this matter because some of us don't agree with the sources. For what it's worth, I don't think the comment itself is de facto racism: I agree that it's a comment about nations, and even that it's a comment based in a realistic summation of those nations' economic and social conditions. But too many RSes have identified it as a racist comment for me to suggest that we go with my own interpretation. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well all it takes is the first one. If one RS says it is racist then others can and will jump in and say that it's been reported as racist, and then that has been fully determined to be racist. That is the way our news cycle works now, and in a way it is its own form of citogenesis. I specifically say news cycle because this article is almost entirely sourced by news reports. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:20, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It has everything to do with it, starting with WP:NEWSORG and WP:NOTNEWS. We are an encyclopedia, not a SOAPBOX and or here to RIGHTGREATWRONGS by hammering our readers with allegations of the president being a racist. The real questions are not being asked, like what does a border wall to stop drug traficking and smuggling have to do with race? What does a ban on countries known for terrorism have to do with race? When Obama wanted it, he wasn't called racist. Why is Trump a racist for doing the same things? Those are the real questions that need to be asked here. Atsme📞📧18:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
From my post above - Worse yet, not all are race-related. The following Slate article describes Tesler's analysis: Since 2009, Tesler has been chronicling what he calls the “racialization” of issues in the Obama era—the extent to which public opinion on topics unrelated to race have taken on a racial cast as Obama has staked out positions on them." We should be using editorial judgment to not include topics unrelated to race, such as the ban on certain Muslim countries that Obama first named, the border wall that prior presidents supported - they need to be removed as neither is racially motivated. To simply include misinformation because that happens to be what the (cherrypicked) sources say - I point to policy: WP:NOTNEWS As Wikipedia is not a paper source, editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Then there is WP:NEWSORG: Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis. Multiple sources should not be asserted for any wire service article. Such sources are essentially a single source.WP:BIASED states When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that... Common sense tells us that building a border wall has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with national defense to stop drug trafficking, smuggling, etc. - it's a topic that is unrelated to race and belongs in an immigration article. Claims of racism typically originate from biased sources which requires in-text attribution BUT if it's not racism, even though it's verifiable in a news source, our job is to exercise good editorial judgment and maintain the quality and credibility of our encyclopedia. We are NOTNEWS. Why do we need 12+ unrelated allegations of racism in this encyclopedia, some cited to biased RS that are publishing quotes by Trump detractors so he can be found guilty in the court of public opinion - and ne'ery a word about the opposing views in those same sources to provide proper WEIGHT & BALANCE. Atsme📞📧18:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Common sense tells us that building a border wall has nothing to do with racism" Right. How is the Canadian border wall coming along? - MrX 🖋 18:58, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense tells us that building a border wall has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with national defense to stop drug trafficking, smuggling, etc. That's not common sense. That's self delusion. It's based on categorically false claims of terrorists coming over the border, categorically false claims of illegal immigrants stealing jobs from Americans, categorically false claims about the effectiveness of a wall and categorically false claims about at least a half a dozen other things. It only makes sense if you believe a bunch of obvious bullshit. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.19:20, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, MPants at work, if you don't live along a southern border in the US, or within 100 miles of it, you can't possibly know what really goes on. If you think leftist MSM is going to tell you, think again. I have close friends who own land along the border - I lived a short 300 mi. from Brownsville - ask the people who live along the border what the real issues are as the drug cartels and smugglers go about their business in human trafficking and weapons trade. Texas doesn't have the resources to stop it. You say self-delusion, and that a wall is a categorically false claim - that tells me MSM has done a great job with their open border propaganda and keeping the American people uninformed via ommission. this is what happens when you get too close to the drug camps. See the stats, they're real. See the strategy for keeping the public uninformed and compliant, it's real. See the terrorist movement, it's real. We simply need to exercise sound editorial judgment, common sense and strict adherence to WP's 3 core content policies - they are our biggest assets in helping to keep WP neutral while rejecting all the SOAPBOX advocacies. Atsme📞📧22:02, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
if you don't live along a southern border in the US, or within 100 miles of it, you can't possibly know what really goes on. In fact, I have, (and far closer than you, if your comment here is accurate) but I appreciate you assuming the opposite because it supports your own preconceptions anyways. I didn't always live where I'm at now. Also, I really like the whole MSM conspiracy theory thing: If you're trying to eliminate any remaining vestiges of respect I have for you, you're doing a bang-up job of it right now. Finally your source which you claim proves that the terrorism threat is real says pretty much the exact opposite. You should really read those things before you grab a link. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:14, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Back on topic, it is evident that saying that some *countries* are better than others is not a statement about race. Even saying that *people from some countries* should be welcome and others should not is not a statement about race; it's a statement about nationality. This is obvious. By putting this material on a page called "racial views" simply because some columnists have read into the statement what they wish to see (whether rightly or wrongly) is not the job of an encyclopedia. There is nothing about *race* in the statement. It doesn't belong under "racial views" except for a minor mention (and a link) indicating that many in the media ascribed the statement to racism. But the "Shithole countries" section itself should be included on the pages for Trump's political positions or immigration policy. That's NPOV. Bueller 007 (talk) 21:10, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
By putting this material on a page called "racial views" simply because some columnists have read into the statement what they wish to see (whether rightly or wrongly) is not the job of an encyclopedia. You are utterly incorrect. As an encyclopedia, it is our job to report what the reliable sources say, not our own interpretations, no matter how obvious. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.21:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Again, to be clear: NPOV and RS does not mean that Wikipedia's coverage of an event has to echo the *opinions* of journalists. The coverage itself should be neutral; we can then clearly indicate journalists' opinions about the event. In this case, the way to do this is to remove "Shithole countries" from the "Racial Views" page (since it does not contain any statement about race), to add it to another page, and to indicate that many in the media thought that the statement thought it was racist. By including it on the "Racial Views" page, we are suggesting that some journalists' opinions are right (and others are wrong) about this being a racial statement. That's POV editorializing of the type that Wikipedia is not supposed to engage in. Bueller 007 (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You have already been quite clear that you believe your judgement overrides that of the sources. It also is clear that many people, including journalists and commentators have criticized this remark as being racist. Therefore, it doesn't matter one bit whether it was racist on its face or not because the coverage it has gotten has been mostly about whether or not it was racist, or -rather more accurately- mostly about how racist it was but also with some coverage of whether or not it was racist. Therefore, it is absolutely relevant to this subject and should be covered on this page. It may also be covered on other pages, where it is also relevant, such as the immigration policy page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.21:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article does not have serious WP:NPOV problems. We don't substitute editor's views that something is not a racial statement for respected sources that say otherwise. This article is built on objective news sources and few book sources, so it's a non-starter to suggest that those news sources are "journalists' opinions". If there are news sources that represent a different take on Trump's shithole comments, those should be represented as well, but in proper proportion. - MrX 🖋 22:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, MrX, your WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT argument is echoing. We've already cited various policies that explain why your argument won't stay afloat. There aren't many options left after discussion has reached this point so maybe NPOV/N is the best next step. Atsme📞📧23:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My dear Atsme, I am listening and open to adapting my views. Please see my previous response to you. If you want to convince me with your arguments, you can't just make bold sweeping assertions. You are free to start a discussion at any of the DR noticeboards, or start an RfC, but word to the wise: don't bite off more than you can chew. A focused proposal or question is much more likely to reach a resolution than a laundry list of NPOV grievances.- MrX 🖋 23:14, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, haven’t yet had time to go through all of this as my PC melted like a witch on a rampart. But IMHO, a quick scan would suggest you listen to X’s wise counsel. O3000 (talk) 01:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your "respected sources" are voicing *opinions*. There are other sources who opine that it was *not* a racial statement. It is not the job of Wikipedia to weigh columnists' opinions against each other. (With, of course, the opinion that *you* favour being the winner.) Whether or not Trump is a racist, "shithole countries" is obviously not a statement about race unless you read into it. And what you read into it may or may not be Trump's state of mind. We do not know. Journalists also do not know. That's why Wikipedia taking a stance on Trump's unknown state of mind (based on journalist opinion) is POV. Again, the NPOV approach is to move this info to a page with a neutral title and then describe how/why various journalists believe it was racist. Bueller 007 (talk) 13:17, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is easily refuted by the text of the article: Trump has been called a racist by a number of New York Times columnists including Nicholas Kristof ("I don't see what else we can call him but a racist"), Charles M. Blow ("Trump Is a Racist. Period."), and David Leonhardt ("Donald Trump is a racist").FallingGravity05:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe anyone is seriously arguing that there were no racial implications when Trump said he didn't like getting immigrants from "shithole countries" (in context, African countries and Haiti), and wanted more immigrants from "countries like Norway".[30] Even if some people on this board are blind to the racist import of that statement, it was obvious to virtually all the people who commented on it - not just journalists but leaders and politicians from all over the world. Come on, folks. OF COURSE this belongs here, as attested by virtually all Reliable Source coverage. --MelanieN (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Survey: inauguration address
Following some recent discussion, there is a suggestion to include the following text in the article:
During his inauguration address on January 20, 2017, Trump stated: "Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots."[1]adding secondary sources 15:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[2][3]
Could participating editors clarify whether they support or oppose including this quote in the article, with a brief rationale? — JFGtalk10:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural note: In the hope of gaining time, I am not turning this question into a 30-day RfC. However, if a rough consensus does not emerge from local discussion, then we will probably need to start a formal RfC process to gather more input. — JFGtalk10:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NOTE: I went ahead and added a couple of secondary sources for good measure. JFG Please add secondary sources that quoted him and provided analysis such as CNN and Boston Globe to name a few. Some editors are confused by the single source cited in the above, thinking it's cited to the actual speech (primary, not that it should matter) instead of the secondary sources that pulled quotes and/or analyzed the speech.Atsme📞📧14:36, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Include – This quote is one of the rare direct "racial views" actually expressed by Donald Trump; this is the subject of our article, so this quote should be included irrespective of people's opinions about what he said. — JFGtalk10:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Include - Trump's words, high relevancy to the article, RS, his personally spoken view, aligns with policy in that it is in-text attribution, fail to see any valid policy-based reason to not include it. Atsme📞📧11:11, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Excludedozens of sources, it turns out zzz (talk) 20:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC) per WP:PRIMARY, ie unless some RS noted it. No reason to include any cherry picked quote from long, rambling speech written by Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller, that was noted for other reasons. zzz (talk) 11:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
zzz: Just an aside re "long, rambling speech": It was actually unusually short. "his brief 15-minute inaugural address was more concise than most swearing-in speeches throughout history".[31] --MelanieN (talk) 17:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude - primary source without secondary coverage/analysis; low usefulness to reader's understanding. Note that article already notes that Trump denies being racist. Neutralitytalk12:08, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Exclude - We shouldn't use a primary source in that way. Editors shouldn't use original research to decide what part of the speech is important or relevant to the subject. We shouldn't try to distill Trump's views from a speech written by Bannon and Miller.- MrX 🖋 12:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Boston Globe simply prints his speech without analysis. The CNN source is the opinion on Tim Stanley, but at least it offers some analysis, specifically: "Trump can be fairly accused of nationalism, but it's hard to find evidence in his public rhetoric of the kind of biological racism on display in Charlottesville. On the contrary, Trump appears to believe in a color-blind patriotism -- the view that all Americans are equal and bound together by loyalty to the flag."- MrX 🖋 19:13, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MrX, you must be looking at a different Boston Globe than the one cited in the green box (footnote #3), the title of which is "An analysis of Donald Trump’s inaugural speech" dated January 20, 2017. To begin, that RS confirms that the speech was published in a RS, (and there are many), and it did provide an analysis for pretty much every section of the speech in the right-hand margin. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page re: the sources. Atsme📞📧23:57, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, the format threw me off. Yes, there is an analysis for this quote:
"A new national pride will stir our souls, lift our sights, and heal our divisions.
It is time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget: that whether we are black or brown or hite, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots, we all enjoy the same glorious freedoms, and we all salute the same great American Flag."
Thank you Atsme for illuminating 💡 the fact that the quote in this proposal has been so manipulated so that it hardly represents the original at all. I have modified my !vote accordingly.- MrX 🖋 02:53, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You must have turned on a 5 watt bulb, MrX because you didn't get full illumination. The CNN article sourced above states: He famously said: "whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots ... we all salute the same great American Flag." In the phrase JFG exampled above, you have to turn the wattage up a bit so you can see the following symbol […] which serves a purpose. It's rough draft editing, MrX, with markups. Atsme📞📧03:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On the fence. On the one hand it is one of the few times he has directly addressed race - leaving aside who wrote the speech, we do not apply that to any head of state - and we routinely include comments by primary subjects. On the other as far as I can see no secondary source has picked up on it, which is surprising given his subsequent issues with the subject (The ABC source is just printing the full text). I am leaning towards yes in the spirit of fairness but its difficult absent comment to do much other than place it in somewhere absent context. Could use it as a framing quote at/near the top. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:27, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude - Agree with the rationales in the previous three excludes. Besides, flag-waving, jingoist rhetorical devices are commonly written into such speeches by the speech writers and do not provide a clear view into the mind of those reciting them. If any analysts had taken these words to be meaningful; we would have seen commentary. WP:WEIGHTO3000 (talk) 12:47, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Include - this page includes things like "shithole countries", which are not even statements about race. When Trump actually *does* talk about race, it is obviously something that should be included on his "racial views" page. Since other editors are either too biased or too lazy to actually look, here is a page where CNN claims that Trump "famously said" this quote: [32] Apparently "reliable sources" don't count if they don't say what you want them to say? Anyone arguing that "shithole countries" should stay because it is in RS should have no problem with this quote being included. Bueller 007 (talk) 13:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Include This is Trump making a statement about race. No matter how hollow it is, it's absolutely germane to this page.
@Only in death: See [33] for some third party analysis. It's pretty shallow, but it's there. The thing is; we're an encyclopedia. We're supposed to be thorough and detailed and cover all the angles. But since we don't hire experts to write, we have to rely on pre-existing sources. Unfortunately for us, those sources have different goals and methods. So they see a hollow, meaningless statement on race from Trump and ignore it because it's hollow and meaningless. But we can't be thorough if we ignore it. So the only thing we can do, is what it proposed above: present it without any analysis or narrower context than "Trump on race". ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.13:44, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pants, no. Actually we do ignore stuff that secondary sources ignore. That's how we know what's noteworthy encyclopedic content. When the whole RS world has more important things to discuss, we shouldn't make WP an anthology of the insignificant. SPECIFICOtalk14:00, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your source says it's about "nostalgia for a country that has... fallen from greatness", not race. And that is obviously correct, when you see the full quote. zzz (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, when you combine that paragraph with the previous one, his point is about nostalgia. But are you asserting that "..whether we are black or brown or white..." is not a reference to race? Understand; the reason I support this inclusion is to show exactly how little Trump has had to say about about the value of diversity. The vast majority of the time when Trump refers to race, he's saying something either explicitly racist or something with racist undertones. What better way to present that neutrally to our reader than to document the thousands of words of explicitly or implicitly racist meaning, and then to allow that to contrast with the dozen or so words he's said about the subject that weren't racist? And, contrary to what SPEC says below; no-one is suggesting we engage in any OR. We're not offering any commentary on the speech, just the speech itself. It's not OR to cite something, even from a primary source. It's OR to come to a conclusion or to make a claim of fact or a value judgement that's not present in the source. None of which is suggested here, though the original version with the intro did do exactly that. Nor is it OR for us to use our judgement as to pick out what portion of the speech to quote, as it doesn't require anything but knowledge of English idioms to understand that the portion picked out refers to race. As I've said before, if WP is supposed to exactly parrot what the source say, then we can simply reduce every article to hyperlinks and quotes. Editorial judgement is absolutely a component of what we do here, else the WMF would have simply created a bot to do the work for us. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.15:00, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Passing off a statement about nostalgia for the days of slavery as an anti-racist statement is definitely not what we do here. zzz (talk) 15:23, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pants, you're describing OR and a SYNTH presentation of editor-cherrypicked primary content to make an OR point. That's not a proper basis for inclusion. SPECIFICOtalk15:34, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You have already conceded that it's just an empty turn of phrase in a statement about nostalgia. That's the end of the story, as far as I'm concerned. zzz (talk) 15:57, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude It's primary-sourced cherry-picked as noteworthy on the subject. That constitutes Original Research. In fact the statement does not mention race. It mentions "patriotism", not race. This meaningless extract has been rejected several times on this talk page. The exact same zombie proposal is put up over and over, not taking into account any of the policy-based objections that could have been used to create article text that better reflects the speech and RS discussion of it. Already, this poll has confirmed what we already knew -- there is no consensus to add this. That having been established, the poll should be withdrawn and no RfC should be opened. Well-sourced secondary references can support article text on the subject of race in the inaugural address, and this is not helping get us in that direction. SPECIFICOtalk13:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion to compromise Include it, but only with critique and analysis by a representative sampling of group that have historically been the subject of prejudice in the U.S.A. It is correct to include a statement by the President, but it is also correct to include the response to it from groups impacted, in my opinion for NPOV. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 13:51, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
CW, I understand your point, but let's not end up with another indecipherable, multi-dimensional thread here. I suggest that any discussion of possible alternatives be deferred until this poll is over. SPECIFICOtalk13:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude - I question the way this quote was put together. From my work here it seems unusual. Reading his speech one finds that he said "At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America, and through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice." and then later (after five applause breaks) says, "It’s time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget, that whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots." It seems to me that he is talking about patriotism, not race. Gandydancer (talk) 15:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is going to be included, so lets focus on keeping it balanced with views for communities where this U.S.A., culture has historical prejudices and their views of what Trump said. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 16:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Include This article is about his views. This was an on-the-record, widely reported comment by him. It was specifically about race ("black or brown or white"), deploring prejudice and calling for racial unity. Of course we should include it, all of it as proposed, suitably cited to secondary sources. And only it, not a bunch of commentators claiming he didn't really mean it. (Anyhow it was one of the very rare positive comments in that "American carnage" inaugural address of his; let him have it.) --MelanieN (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MelanieN, you're stating your interpretation of his words. Various editors suggest different interpretations. Shouldn't we rely instead on RS that discuss the meaning of his words? Or are you suggesting that we include both the quote and secondary discussion of those words or the Address? SPECIFICOtalk16:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SPECIFICO, when he says "Whether we are black or brown or white," it does not take interpretation to understand that he is talking about race. That is as directly as he could possibly have said "no matter what race we are", we are all patriots, we are all Americans. It's a call for racial inclusiveness, racial acceptance, non-discrimination, in the name of patriotism. I am suggesting that we include his clear words and not a bunch of secondary discussion about it or the Address. His comment is clear, it can stand alone. --MelanieN (talk) 17:11, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Melanie as always I do trust and respect your judgement, but in this case when you look at the full quote: "A new national pride will stir ourselves, lift our sights, and heal our divisions. It's time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget, that whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots. We all enjoy the same glorious freedoms. And we all salute the same great American flag.", I don't see how you can say that this quote is about racial prejudice. It seems to me to be a call for patriotism and not a statement about racial equality. Gandydancer (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As editors, we don't lift a snippet out of context and then promote it for what it might have said if it had not been said in context. We can't do that. SPECIFICOtalk18:23, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
include, assuming that this article is trying to present readers with all relevant information related to Trump's views on race and not just those that seek to present his views in a negative light. Birtig (talk) 16:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN: Let me ask this a different way. If the meaning of this extract is clear, can you paraphrase it in one or two sentences? I would be surprised if the editors here could do that or at least could agree on the paraphrased meaning. From what you post above here, I disagree that he's saying all white brown and black skin people are patriots. That would contradict a lot of his other statements. He has various subsets of the colors that he repeatedly tells us are not patriots. But anyway, if you'll endulge me, can you paraphrase his comment (rather than interpreting it) in one or two short sentences? I think we all may find that a helpful way to further this discussion. If we editors don't agree as to what it means then none of us as editors should select it for the article. Just to be clear, if this were selected by the bulk of mainstream commentators that would be a different matter, imo. SPECIFICOtalk18:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't intend to paraphrase it, and you shouldn't either. His own words are straightforward enough and shouldn't be twisted by people trying to put in their own interpretations. He absolutely IS saying that Americans are Americans, patriots are patriots, regardless of the color of their skin. That's what he said, and we should include it. Without a rebuttal or an "interpretation". Sure, maybe he didn't mean it, maybe he has often contradicted that sentiment by his actions; many politicians don't match their rhetoric with their actions. Trump himself is notorious for contradicting himself. Let him say something noble for once and get credit for it. Almost the whole rest of this article stands in contradiction to these few sentences of his, let him have these. I am done discussing this. --MelanieN (talk) 19:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus determines what will be included, SPECIFICO - and it won't be based on how you want Melanie to write it. JFG presented the statement this iVote is about, it's clearly stated in the green box above, and that's what will be used. Clarifying - the quote box is draft form with mark-up so JFG will use the quote that is relevant to Trump's racial views. 04:27, 24 February 2018 (UTC)Atsme📞📧18:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification@MelanieN: I was not asking you to write a paraphrase that we would use as article text. I meant to be testing whether there's a clear meaning that you can show us you're referring to and if so whether it's the same meaning that others see in this text. I meant it as a kind of ideological turing test, which is often a helpful device in discussions to out these content matters. Basically, the process of paraphrasing these words is one of the best ways to expose ambiguities, contradictions, or other problems that undermine its significance. SPECIFICOtalk19:44, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a perfect example of why we shouldn't use primary sources for something like this. MelanieN says the quote is about racial unity; others say it's about race; others still say it's about patriotism. There have been volumes written about Trump's racial views. We shouldn't have to pick a quote from a speech and try to interpret what was said. Use a secondary source like we do for the rest of the article. It's not that hard. If we do end up adding this, you better believe we will add commentary about whether he meant it or not, as long is it satisfies WP:V and WP:DUEWEIGHT.- MrX 🖋 19:05, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MelanieN says the quote is about racial unity; others say it's about race; There is no dichotomy there. if it's about racial unity, it's about race.
We shouldn't have to pick a quote from a speech and try to interpret what was said. The only interpreting I see going on is editors implying that it's not about race. No-one is contesting that his point was about patriotism. But that doesn't mean he can't make a comment about race as part of making that point. It's perfectly clear to everyone -including those who are implicitly denying it, I contend without reservation- that his reference to "black or brown or white" people who "all bleed patriotism" was a statement about racial unity. And I don't deny that it was made for the purpose of a broader point about patriotism, which I will further contend was in turn was made for a broader point about his plans for his time in office, which in turn was made for the even broader purpose of making people like and respect him, which itself was done for the ultimate purpose of making himself feel good about himself. "Points" and "meanings" and "purposes" are not absolute, exclusionary things. They can be nested, paired, balanced, etc. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.19:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Editors can interpret whatever they want on talk pages, but editor interpretations don't belong in a articles. Like is says in WP:PSTS: "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."- MrX 🖋 19:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
support that, primary sources lend themselves to cherry picking - if not even one secondary source can really be found (of the ones provided above, one is a opinion piece, the other does not mention specifically or in relation to race) on something well covered (inaugaration address) on someone so well covered, it fails WP:DUEWEIGHTGalobtter (pingó mió) 19:23, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Galobtter: Re if not even one secondary source can really be found: I don’t understand; are you implying that this wasn’t covered by secondary sources? Politico described it as “inclusive rhetoric”. NBC News called it “a call for unity under one American flag and national identity”. The Guardian says he “paid lip-service to those who have criticized him for emboldening racism and white supremacy on his journey to the White House, but only in the thinnest terms, expressing a call for diversity through the prism of nationalism”. Those are only a few selections - news reports, not op/eds - out of dozens. What is the problem? --MelanieN (talk) 19:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Was unable to find (only transcripts), and no-one else provided any sources. That is indeed a lot better, still unsure about weight. Galobtter (pingó mió)
The bulk of this article is based on journalistic opinions primarily based on the quotes by Trump detractors with limited (if any) verifiable facts. Of course we have different views - I see this article as conflating the POV of others with Trump's own views, not to mention all the non-racially related sections, and I'm not surprised the cherrypicked sources support that conflated view. It may also explain why some think the actual quote of Trump's own views seem UNDUE, despite this being an article about Trump's views. Jiminy Cricket! Atsme📞📧19:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Who writes Trump's speeches is not relevant - he is not compelled to read out any words that may be written by others; he is perfectly capable of ignoring a pre-written speech and delivering a speech ad lib as if feels it necessary; he may well have read the speech in advance and knew in advance what he would say if he stuck to the speech. Bottom line is that Trump choose to say those words, whoever may or may not have written them, so he made them his. Birtig (talk) 20:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
VM, show me verifiable facts that he did not write that speech - not more of the same unsubstantiated rumors by "someone close to the president" or the like. Atsme📞📧22:11, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And @Atsme: those are not secondary sources you've found -- one is about Charlottesville that links to the full text of the inaugural address and the other is just the full text of the inaugural address with little bubbles next to it. If that's the best you can do, it's another nail in the coffin of a non-noteworthy snippet. SPECIFICOtalk20:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Status There's clearly no consensus to include this, so OP should either drop it our launch the threatened RfC if OP thinks the current poll is not representative of WP editors' opinions. SPECIFICOtalk20:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
sigh* SPECIFICO, MelanieN has explained it to you as have other editors. Continuing your IDIDNTHEARTHAT position is wearing us out. Surely you're able to recognize the purpose of a secondary source when they publish a primary document, quote from it and provide commentary. If you don't, then may I suggest that you spend some time reading WP:RS, and while you're at it, go take a look at Trump-Russia dossier allegations. What do you think they used to list the allegations? Hmmmm...could it be the actual dossier? Oh, no. Ooops. Atsme📞📧21:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:Atsme, give a thought as a middle ground that allows Trump to speak and the words of the groups long effected by prejudice to also be heard. This will, I feel, gain support from most, except the wikilawyers amongst us. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but Emir, if you'll look through the history of this TP, it usually only takes the approval of 2 or 3 editors to be considered "consensus". Anything that is not negative usually requires a 30-day RfC closed by an admin. Consensus is clear - the exclude arguments are simply not based in policy - they are all IDONTLIKEIT. Atsme📞📧21:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude (struck out to Neutral 2/25) - reluctantly User:JFG, this just seems WP:UNDUE plus has problems in cites or unjustified selection. It's a bit UNDUE as coverage of racism accusations has far, far outweighed anything Trump actually said or policies under his administration, and this particular line is not really apparent in Googling or appearing above other potential phrases of his. (Saw only 5 hits for 'we all bleed the blood of patriots'. That's got to be a mistake as it is in the address... but still...) The cites are problematic as the CNN cite is bad as an opinion piece and also is not distinctly speaking to racial views, it is more pointing to his patriotism or law and order and color-blind on racial views after Charlottesville); and the Boston Globe cite highlighted many passages but not this one so it is a bit off for us to elevate it. Looking at BBC, there is no coverage of this line other than in the whole address, but I do see the inaugural line "no room for prejudice" noted by [BBC] after Charlottesville. But again, mostly the searches I've tried are just winding up with far far more accusations and bits on 'shithole' or 'Pocohantas' than anything covering Trump policies or views. For example, coverage of a meeting with leaders of Historically Black Colleges focused on Kellyanne Conway having her feet on the sofa while taking a snapshot or campus backlash towards the leaders for going there, and mention of the Executive Order is not readily seen. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:Atsme - thanks for spotting my typo in googling, and the Euronews and Vox cites (not the Atlantic) are excellent support cites, removing my objections. It seems I am just getting odd results though because when I google "we all bleed the same red blood of patriots" I am seeing just 29,500 hits but at Yahoo I see 47,100,000 hits and at Bing I see 47,000,000 hits. Trying "When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice" I get 51,200; 36,200; and 4,060,000. I will strike out my Exclude due to the unreliable results so I am not able to tell if UNDUE and the Vox and Euronews cites are not problematic. From the BBC usage and highlights in some cites here that the second phrase is a bit more prominent and that both are better portrayed as a call for unity in patriotic nationalism, but do not object if either (or both) are used. I do see commentary that reviews this call for unity as being as "color-blind". Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:47, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - To those saying that this proposal doesn't interpret Trump's remarks or that we should not twist his words, I would like to point out the difference between the proposal and what he actual said:
This Proposal
What Trump Actually Said
"Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] Whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots.
"At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America and, through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. […] A new national pride will lift our sights and heal our divisions. It's time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget, that whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots.
This raises the following questions:
Why should we omit Trump's call to nationalism evident[34] in the the actual complete sentences uttered by Trump (and written by Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller)?
Trump wrote his own inaugural speech - the claim that Bannon & Miller wrote it is unsubstantiated gossip originating from an anonymous "White House official" - first red flag. It's pretty sad that MSM is reading a lot like The Daily Mail and The Sun ...second red flag, and what WP:NEWSORG says to avoid; i.e., Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors. CNN, WaPo, NYTimes with some pretty obvious disinformation in their annotations. Regardless, the push to keep Trump's own racial views out of this article lends credence to it being an attack page. Atsme📞📧14:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are comparing The NYTimes and WaPo to The Daily Mail? You are claiming you know who wrote the speech without any source for that claim? In any case, the full quote sounds more like a Prelude to War than anything related to Trump’s views on race. O3000 (talk) 14:28, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hold your nose and read the Daily Mail & Sun articles; keep holding it while you read HuffPo, Newsweek, and Independent - compare for yourself. The NYTimes was far more subtle in its presentation saying "it highlighted the influence" of Bannon & Miller. WaPo was a bit more bold but not to the point of sensationalism, stating Bannon & Miller "had a hand in crafting Trump’s speech". Had the former and latter been cited we wouldn't be reading the exaggerated claims like what some have made about Trump not writing his own speech. I provided sources that support my position; specifically Trump quoted as saying unequivocaly that he wrote the speech. The sources that credit Bannon & Miller as authors are spreading gossip from an anonymous "White House official", who could be an intern for all we know. I consider it shoddy journalism per WP:BLPGOSSIP, Be wary of relying on sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources. There's also a lot of circular reporting - it's usually an AP report that gets circulated, but WSJ gets the credit for starting the speech gossip. I think the Chicago Tribune nailed a big part of the problem with the negativity and POV issues. Atsme📞📧16:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So, your source that supports your position is solely a self-serving claim made by Trump. And, you ridicule the reporting of the NYT and WaPo, both of which have enormous records of reliability and fact checking? And based on that, you claim that the NYT and WaPo are gossip-mongers comparable to The Daily Mail? And then you pull out of thin air something about this having a connection with the AP and/or WSJ and/or Chicago Trib? O3000 (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
03000 - what are your reading? I did NOT "ridicule" the reporting of NYT and WaPo, I provided the sources that support my statements, and I find your comments to be very combative. I will not partake. Good day. Atsme📞📧17:28, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You stated that they reported disinformation. Your sources supported nothing of the sort. And, you are yet again casting aspersions. O3000 (talk) 17:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MrX I noted the same problem in my decision to vote to exclude. Plus I noted that the quote not only uses portions of two sentences, they are quite some distance apart in the speech - five applause pauses. Gandydancer (talk) 17:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I believe that's pretty obviously WP:SYNTH ("Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.")- MrX 🖋 19:27, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude - the first source given does not discuss the speech in the context of the subject of this article (racial views of Donald Trump). The second source given does but it's all about pointing out how the things in the speech don't jive with his other statements and actions. So just taking the quote on the basis of the second source is just cherry-picking and misrepresenting a source. You need to either find other secondary sources on the speech and how it fits in with this topic, or we keep the quote out.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Title editorializes
The title should not be "racial views" of Trump because none authoritatively speak to his views on if certain traits are more likely to be in some people rather than others based on unchangeable traits like DNA/brain makeup. Views that relate to that are the only views that can indisputably be said to be "racial." The title should be more along the lines of "Donald Trump's Views on Race-Associated Issues" for purposes of NPOV.Atrix20 (talk) 03:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, but the survey results brought a different result - scroll up the page to the section titled, "Requested move 16 February 2018". Atsme📞📧04:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Trump donated Wall Street office space to Jesse Jackson's PUSH Coalition
Just a small point. In the 'defense of Donald Trump subsection it says that 'he announced that he would donate'. I have found a source in which Jesse Jackson is quoted as saying that he followed through on that promise. [35] I suggest the subsection is amended to state that he 'donated' rather than 'announced he would donate'. Birtig (talk) 17:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well not him -- remember it was a slow-selling condo conversion of an old Wall Street office building. Anyway, this is apparently a right-wing whataboutism meme or "some of my best friends are former civil rights leaders" or something or other. It's in the NY Post and Tucker Carlson helpfully found some old coverage. SPECIFICOtalk17:54, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The five sentence article refers to a video link that does not work and a Daily Caller article with the same bad link, and which is not RS. I looked for sources before changing the text. O3000 (talk) 17:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to Specifico's I don't think any of that relates to the topic of this article – Trump supported Jesse Jackson by donating office space to his Rainbow/PUSH project. Given Jackson's focus on anti-discrimination activism, this does look relevant to an article about Trump's "racial views". Not liking it is not an argument for deleting the information, so I have restored it. Surely, better sourcing can be found. — JFGtalk18:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to dig out passing comments by Trump 30 years ago to support accusations of racism, we might as well dig out passing comments by Jesse Jackson 30 years ago showing his support for minority activism. WP:NPOV, WP:BALANCE, etc. — JFGtalk18:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
JFG- Your reinsertion is a DS violation and I ask you to undo your edit and engage seriously here. I stated my objection both in my edit summary and here on talk. Your dismissal of my challenge as "i don't like it" is uncivil and unconstructive. We editors cannot infer a view of Trumps from an action one of his business ventures made 20 years ago. Please undo your reinsertion without consensus. SPECIFICOtalk18:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"We editors cannot infer a view of Trumps from an action one of his business ventures made 20 years ago"...You mean like when Trumps' business was sued in 1973 for housing discrimination? Birtig (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, that's a good ref for Jackson's intentions and Trump's promise, but where are sources documenting that Trump actually followed through? With his track record, our default position must be that he never did it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe19:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. When I challenged Specifico's removal of well-sourced and relevant material, I didn't notice the sentence had been added very recently. I just self-reverted pending discussion outcome. — JFGtalk18:17, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While trying to find sources, I did see two NYTimes articles. But, they only reported Trump said he would donate. I found no sources that said there was a donation or record of any actual office space. O3000 (talk) 18:28, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which is fine, because the article says "announced he would donate". We can amend the article to says he "donated" if/when good sources are found for that corroboration. — JFGtalk18:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, not that way. His consistent track record shows deceptive promises to donate to charities and other causes, and then a failure to do so, or even worse, using the monies for personal use. Including promises, without anything else, leaves the impression of a wonderful and generous person, when reality is something else.
We should only include when he has actually done so, or, if he has promised and not done it, document the promise AND failure to do so. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe18:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he did follow through - Jackson said: “When we opened this Wall Street project,” he continued. “He gave us space at 40 Wall Street, which was to make a statement about our having a presence there.” There's this NYTimes article that also verifies it. There's a C-Span clip here showing Jackson giving Trump an award. As one might expect, today's left-leaning MSM will not relent from their onslaught in their war against Trump which is constantly fueled by Trump calling them "fake news". That's why as WP editors, our editorial judgment is paramount to sift through the political rhetoric, rumors, and unsubstantiated allegations. RS will publish both sides and/or all views available via ethical reporting. Atsme📞📧20:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Daily Caller isn't a reliable source for anything political (pretty close to the "fake news" Trump complains about), but the NYT and C-Span are RS. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe00:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I found it: "At one point, he gave free office space to Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow PUSH Coalition." The article is also of relevance on the subject of Trump and racism. It's a mixed bag, with comments for and against him. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe00:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is that the same C-Span clip where Trump says he offered the unrented space in his struggling project to Jackson at $40 a foot, but Jackson refused? BTW, they are personal friends so I don't know how you impute a racial view to this whole business. The project was not in 40 Wall for long. The building was rented out and Jackson's project is now up in a remote location at an old building in the Garment District on 7th Avenue. SPECIFICOtalk20:13, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Text being discussed
For clarity, here is the material being discussed:
In 1997 he announced he would donate Wall Street office space to Jesse Jackson's civil rights group, the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, stating of Jackson: "He's out there pushing for a lot of good things".[1]
In my opinion, this event should be placed together with other anecdotes in chronological order in the "History" section. — JFGtalk18:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We just need to distinguish the difference between (1) generosity and (2) words and actions indicating a racist or non-racist mindset. In this case we have words which don't show a racist mindset. Whatever happened with the promised office space isn't really necessary here. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe18:45, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - although I would prefer to see the article properly weighted and balanced with statements of fact like this one interspered throughout the lede and body per NPOV rather than hidden away in its own separate section at the bottom of the page. Atsme📞📧18:50, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal is to add this event to the "History" section, like other events, not in the "Defenses" section where it was first placed. — JFGtalk21:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support ONLY his last quote, unless RS document he actually did it. Otherwise it would only fit his pattern of promises of charitable giving and failing to do so. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe19:04, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If we are going to add an example of a black leader saying complimentary things about Trump 20 years ago; shouldn’t we add what that same man has said about Trump recently? It would seem that only the former would be a misleading statement about that leader’s opinions. O3000 (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a bad reflection on both, but true to the political arena. I prefer to contribute encyclopedic information that will maintain the quality and integrity of the project and not sink to the level of political mud slinging. Atsme📞📧20:27, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to understand how it is unencyclopedic to include only a statement from 20 years ago without more recent statements made by the same man directly related to the subject of this article. Statements by Jackson about Charlottesville, shithole countries, and NFL players. This leaves a false, POV impression. For example: "The Rev. Jesse L. Jackson said Mr. Trump had effectively challenged athletes of all races to rise against him, by using language Mr. Jackson described as displaying a 'slave-master-servant mentality.'"[36]O3000 (talk) 20:52, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What you're asking for is not unreasonable O3000, and pretty much mirrors what I and others have challenged in other areas of this article beginning with the lede, except from a different perspective. Negative opinions of Trump published in news sources shape the context of this article creating UNDUE and BALANCE issues because it simply does not"indicate the relative prominence of opposing views" per NPOV policy. Atsme📞📧13:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What secondary source do we cite and what "racial view" does it describe. We are not journalists observing and reporting on what we see. We need to cite RS that describes a view. Incidentally, "donate" is not what this is about. "Donate" doesn't describe a landlord who offers a brief rent reduction on vacant space, followed by the tenant leaving for inferior space elsewhere. "Donate" is giving something, not letting them use it until a paying tenant comes along. SPECIFICOtalk20:46, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which part - the part where it says he offered his unrented office space to Jackson as a personal friend, the part where his girlfriend dodges the question of whether he's a racist and discounts his "elbow-rubbing" with influential Black folks, or did you mean the part where she "despaired over Trump's stoking of racial tensions"? The most interesting line in that article is the quote from the guy who observes that Trump doesn't care about race one way or the other - he only cares what kind of deal he can get for himself. That actually should be in the article, because it's typical of many observers' reactions and it explains what his critics would call his indifference to racism. SPECIFICOtalk21:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
sigh* Yes, it's posted in the right place. When you asked "Which part - " and then included parts that fit your POV about Trump, which is no secret, and ignored opposing views, including Kara Young's statement, “I never heard him say a disparaging comment towards any race of people,” or the NYTimes comment, "While there is no evidence that Mr. Trump personally set the rental policies at his father’s properties," or that Trump's lawyer was quoted as saying there was “no merit to the allegations” or that MSM determined in the court of public opinion that Fred Trump's infamy was inherited...and so forth. That is what I was referring to but it's all stale now. We have bigger fish to fry. Atsme📞📧17:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Several of us would like to see that same formula throughout this article - starting with the lede. Maybe together we can make it happen? Atsme📞📧21:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You can argue other sections elsewhere. Your opinion that there is a lack of BALANCE elsewhere is not relevant to this suggestion. O3000 (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, with modification - I could probably support this is we didn't start it with "He announced...", if we excluded the direct quote, and if we included a little more context. Their friendship should be mentioned, and the reader should be told how this is a counterexample of Trump's racism. We should simply state that he donated the office space, rather than that he announced it.- MrX 🖋 21:19, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support (edit conflict) No need to reason censor this just because I or another editor doesn't like it. It is original research to claim that Trump failed to donate, and even still the proposed text just says he announced he would not that he actually did it. We can include recent statements by Jackson too. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - had an editor found evidence that Trump had opposed the work of Jesse Jackson and the PUSH Coalition, you can guarantee that it would find its way into this article as evidence suggesting that Trump was racist. Well we have found evidence showing the opposite - it equally deserves to be in an article that claims to be examining Donald Trump's racial views. Birtig (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You would need to demonstrate that reliable secondary sources state that this brief rental to Jackson and Trump's friendship with Jackson relate to or demonstrate "Trump's racial views" -- if you have such a case to make, this is the time and place for you to do so. Please review WP:OR SPECIFICOtalk23:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You still don't get it. ☎️ Hello? You initially referenced (my bold), "reliable secondary sources", plural, and I responded with a singular - all he has to do is cite A RS, and use an inline citation. Now do you understand what I was saying? Sorry, but I don't know how I could've made it more clear. Atsme📞📧16:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) The NYTimes article appears to be the best source we have. It doesn't support the text that started this thread, but there's certainly good reporting there from which to create some article content. Its mention of Operation Push is incidental, but the main point is one that's consistent with lots of other reporting on Trump's racial views. Namely that he associates with people who he believes can be useful to him -- including wealthy or powerful people of any sort -- and that he has no particular concern, moral, civic, or otherwise, about racism. According to the narrative of that article, racism is just not something he cares about -- so focusing on it as key determinant of his statements or actions is slicing the cheese inside-out. SPECIFICOtalk15:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not policy compliant
This article doesn't quite fit the description of WP:ATTACKPAGE, and probably would not be a successful candidate for AfD because it actually can be fixed. Per NPOV, Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. With regards to how others view Trump's racial views (which is actually the context of this article), Roll Call, published some interesting results from The Economist/YouGov polling, which further substantiates the partisan divide regarding claims of racism. The results of the poll after Trump's alleged "shithole" comment showed 44% of respondents said he was racist, 16% were unsure, and 40% said he is not. An MSM poll showed 48% said Trump's comment was racist which is not the majority as it relates to mainstream. As editors, it is our job to use editorial judgment in what should or shouldn't be included in the article but that judgment is influenced by our PAGs, and the biggest influence is NPOV, V and BLP policy, followed by NEWSORG. Inclusion of opposing views is required, use of in-text attribution is required in certain circumstances, and per WP:EXCEPTIONAL "exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources" with a red flag waving over ...claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. Polling demonstrates the contradiction in claims of Trump's racism, and there's also the COI issue with the sources used as explained in footnote 8 of the same V policy. Politico nailed it in this article, and NYTimes journalist Daniel Okrent nailed it in his Op-Ed. Those are issues WP editors cannot ignore.
It has been a struggle to get consensus to simply add the most obvious policy compliant additions per NPOV policy and an even harder struggle to get noncompliant material removed. Following is a list of concerns:
One-sided coverage as clearly evidenced by the lede which is noncompliant with NPOV
Lack of responses by Trump, official spokespersons, and other supporters as published in RS.
Reads more like a POV social justice essay with judgments from the court of public opinion rather than an encyclopedic entry with verifiable statements of fact.
Inclusion of material that is unrelated to race and incorrectly presented with a racial cast.
Multiple sources asserted for either a wire service article, such as AP, or primary source articles published by other news orgs such as NYTimes, WaPo, or WSJ, etc. "Such sources are essentially a single source" per WP:NEWSORG.
I remain optimistic that we can work through these issues in a productive, collegial manner and avoid (like the plague) what we've seen happen with other highly controversial topics. I am open to suggestions as to how best to proceed. I think we should start with the first subsection in the History section, work our way down, and then fix the lede. Atsme📞📧16:17, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a specific problem with a specific section where you have not already failed to gain consensus for your positions, then you are welcome to present it. I see no need for an overhaul of the entire article. O3000 (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My problem with this article is that several pieces of information that have been added in the Defenses of Donald Trump section have been deleted. The result is an article that is 95% against Trump and in no way could be described as objective. For the record, Trump is accused of being anti-immigrant (rather than merely anti illegal immigrant), yet the claim that the fact he married an immigrant shows he is not anti-immigrant has been deleted; Trump set up his club in Florida to be an inclusive club at a time when all other clubs in the area discriminated, but the reference to this fact has been deleted; Trump donates Wall Street Office space to the PUSH Coalition which in particular focused on helping minorities, but that too gets deleted. A bit of a pattern here don't you think? Birtig (talk) 17:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These arguments are all invalid and have been refuted, some of them repeatedly. So you can rest easy and move on to finding good, well-sourced article content. SPECIFICOtalk17:38, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your claim that the arguments are "all invalid and have been refuted" is overly generalized, if not false in its entirety. If your purpose here is not to discuss solutions to the issues other editors wish to discuss, please allow the discussions to continue without further interruption. Atsme📞📧17:56, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If your purpose here is not to discuss solutions to the issues other editors wish to discuss.... Please stop casting aspersions. O3000 (talk) 18:00, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A bit of a pattern here don't you think? Yes there is a pattern in your examples. I’m not going to respond to each of these as they have each been discussed at length. I will say that they all remind me of Roy Moore’s wife saying he couldn’t be anti-Semitic because one of his lawyers is a Jew. (Turns out he was a Christian, but that’s not relevant.) This type of argument is covered at: [37]. O3000 (talk) 17:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The same applies to you O3000, if you are not here to discuss the issues, and prefer instead to attack editors, you need to move on. Atsme📞📧18:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So rather than reporting the arguments that have been used in Trump's defense you decide that they are not valid arguments and should not be included? That's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work - at least I thought it was about what the sources say and not whether editors agree with the arguments. Birtig (talk) 18:03, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I said nothing of the sort. I said that each of these has already been discussed at length, and I had nothing to do with any decision on these. I was responding to your statement about a pattern, which appears to insinuate editor bias. O3000 (talk) 18:08, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Another section calling the entire article non-policy compliant? This is disruptive and disrespectful of all of the experienced editors who helped write the article, and who each have a reputation for understanding and adhering to our policies and guidelines. Please either make specific, well-referenced edit proposals, or stop creating these walls of meandering text. This is nothing more than a WP:REHASH. Please stop!- MrX 🖋 18:16, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken this issue to NPOV/N. I also consulted Masem who agrees the article is not compliant. Those who do not wish to participate in these discussions are kindly asked to stop disrupting them by attacking other editors. I will not partake in the PAs. Atsme📞📧18:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully editors actually try to address these problems, rather than just complaining whenever anybody raises POV concerns. I don't even like Trump, but that doesn't mean we should edit-war in our own POV to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. FallingGravity20:38, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I dread setting foot in this discussion and am unlikely to stay around long, but about whether he is anti-immigrant versus anti-illegal immigrant, it seems to me to be significant that his current stated position is that there should be significantly fewer immigrants overall, beyond just fewer illegal immigrants. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Trump's wish to have fewer immigrants is not, in itself racist (which is what this article is supposed to be about). It would only be racist if he were to place restrictions on the right to immigrate based on race - but the reality is he wants a merit based points system similar to many other countries, and the number of immigrants linked to the needs of the economy. Birtig (talk) 21:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Restrictions based on religion would only be racist if they were designed to either benefit or disadvantage Jews as that is the only religion that is also a race. Otherwise, religious discrimination is religious discrimination - not racial discrimination. Birtig (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, at least there is some acknowledgment of noncompliance with NPOV at NPOV/N. Masem said:"If I had sole authority here, I'd delete and salt this page in a second; I think it is far too premature and the like and can't be anywhere close to the type of neutrality WP strives for until many years after Trump's out of office." Read the remainder of his comments which basically summarizes standing consensus to keep the article, words of caution to avoid implying implicit bias, and to try to work collaboratively to fix the NPOV issues. Perhaps we should make a concerted effort to focus on one paragraph at a time, and fix the most glaring issues first, beginning with the lede, and slowly work our way down? I've also thought about preparing a survey for each paragraph and taking it to Village Pump for a wider view. Thoughts? Atsme📞📧18:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I respect Masem's views, they have no more weight than the views of any other experienced editor. It would be inappropriate to export this content dispute to the Village Pump. It would be very helpful if involved editors would respect consensus and stop WP:REHASHING resolved matters.- MrX 🖋 18:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Atsme, there was no validation whatsoever and no suggestions of any improvement to this article. I note that Masem forthrightly explained what I believe is his dissent from WP's current NPOV rubric, at least insofar as it applies to this article. You write that we shouldwork collaboratively to fix the NPOV issues but not a single such issue was identified by you or Masem at that noticeboard. So, nothing to fix here. SPECIFICOtalk18:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some examples of what I and others think are NPOV, namely the lack of direct quotes by Trump on his own actual "racial views" are routinely shot down by you and MrX. There have been several proposals to include Trump's stated views, which you can still see above. I do not understand why the article called "Racial views of Donald Trump" would not contain any of his actual stated views. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The last attempt to insert a "direct quote" turned out a) To be scraped away from a secondary source that discussed it without even revealing that the secondary source existed, and b) Was carved out to pretty much say something that was very different than a straight quotation of POTUS' words said. But direct quotes have been used here "I am the least..." where secondary RS have discussed them. Do you have any additional instances of direct quotes cited by secondary RS as showing or explaining POTUS' racial views? If so, let's consider whether there's potential article content in them. SPECIFICOtalk20:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to see a line item list of the issues, revisit the section I created above titled Weight & Balance issues. I won't repeat them because then I get accused of repeating myself...of repeating myself...of repeating myself. Atsme📞📧20:39, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is this evidence of Trump's racial views?
Hi all. The article currently contains the following in the first subsection:
"The Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino was fined $200,000 in 1991 by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission for removing black and female employees from craps tables in order to accommodate high roller Robert LiButti, a mob figure and alleged John Gotti associate, who was said to fly into fits of racist rage when he was on losing streaks.[34] There is no indication that Trump was questioned in that investigation, he was not held personally liable, and he denies even knowing what LiButti looked like.[34] In 1992 Trump Plaza lost its appeal of the decision.[35]"
Considering that Trump was not even questioned in the investigation and was not held personally liable, does anyone seriously think this is strong enough evidence of Trump's 'racial views' to be included in this article? Birtig (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell from the cited sources, this has nothing to do with Trump's words or actions in relation to racism. It should be removed.- MrX 🖋 17:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not if you heard the story the way I heard it. But, that's not RS, so I removed it. (And, I'm long enough in the tooth to have played blackjack in Atlantic City the day it opened.) O3000 (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I self reverted here after talking to @Objective3000: and @Drmies: on O3000's talk page. There is dispute on if the information is due for inclusion. I was hoping to get some input on others views and I will see if I can find some more sources on the topic. PackMecEng (talk) 02:20, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for coming to talk, PackMecEng. This response of POTUS is more or less ridiculous, but on this page we have had editors say it's better to put these things in the article and let readers decide. I would be more comfortable with secondary-source summary that evaluates the response, if any exists. SPECIFICOtalk02:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ironically, the defense against accusations of bigotry appears to display bigotry itself. Although, I’m not sure how many readers will see that. It’s likely that readers on both sides of the issue will read the sentence and say "Yeah, that proves my point". Which means the sentence is of dubious value. O3000 (talk) 16:11, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All some readers care is that it sounds Hispanic. Probably feel the same way if the name was in Latin. But, I guess we can’t spoon feed the readers. O3000 (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
O3000 has pointed out a problem that comes up any time an editor proposes using a primary sourcesubject's talking point (corrected 17:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)) to "balance" the critics of POTUS. We can't write article text that leads to alternative interpretations. Text needs to convey a single clear meaning. SPECIFICOtalk16:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's due. It was a post-hoc justification that was invented by Trump's supporters (not Trump himself), and which didn't address the fact that Trump made it quite clear that it was the judge's heritage -not his politics or professional affiliations- that he was complaining about. Even if it were an airtight case for a conflict of interest, that wouldn't change Trump's initial reasoning. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are some incidences of Trump himself making the defense. Reuters Trump said “He’s a member of a club or society very strongly pro-Mexican, which is all fine. But I say he’s got bias,” I agree it is not a good defense, but it is a defense he and his supporters made that did get decent coverage. PackMecEng (talk) 17:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't aware that Trump had repeated it, but it doesn't really change my three points. 1) Trump didn't invent that justification; others did. 2) It only came out in response to criticisms of Trump's initial remarks, and; 3) It doesn't actually explain or justify Trump's remarks, which were explicitly about the judge's ancestry. They would probably belong if we had an article about this particular event, but in this case, they're just more noise that doesn't help. I doubt any reasonable reader would assume that Trump's defenders didn't come up with some post-hoc justification that made his comments out not to be racial in nature, so showing them exactly which such justification doesn't aid the reader's understanding at all. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.18:21, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure which came first, him saying that or his supporters. But either way it was a defense he used even if others came up with it. The fact that his defense came after he was attacked is a little odd. Isn't that how all defenses of actions go? I agree it was a bad defense, and while I doubt it was what he had in mind while making those comments, it was again still the defense he used. It kind of goes to WP:PUBLICFIGURE since the section has no response, even if it would be a poor one, from the actual person involved. PackMecEng (talk) 19:58, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in a bit of tailspin by at least two of the above comments:
O3000:"It’s likely that readers on both sides of the issue will read the sentence and say "Yeah, that proves my point". Which means the sentence is of dubious value." What "value" should the sentence have exactly?
SPECIFICO: We can't write article text that leads to alternative interpretations. Text needs to convey a single clear meaning. Please explain why the text needs to convey a single clear meaning, and by whose interpretation will it be judged?
Perhaps my confusion arises from the following statement in our NPOV policy: However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. Another concern is that far too much weight is being given to trivial mention in sources regarding Trump's alleged racism, some of which is the result of circular reporting while most is simply a passing comment by biased journalists expressing their own opinions - I've broken that down a bit further below. Oh, and being Mexican is not a race anymore than being American, or Canadian. Live Science defines it: "Race is associated with biology, whereas ethnicity is associated with culture." You can be caucasian and still be Mexican.
NOTE: the politics section of news publications include a mix of opinion based commentary and news - that's where editorial judgment comes into play. Following is the breakdown of the so-called RS cited in the section Hispanic judge - and by calling him "Hispanic" instead of American, what does that indicate? The section title should be his name, and it should be included in an article about Trump University, not here.
HuffPo "The Blog" has zero info about race, racist, racial or racism.
WaPo "Fact Checker" section has zero info about race, racist, racial or racism.
USA Today "Money" section has zero info about race, racist, racial or racism.
NYTimes "Politics" - Election 2016 - article has zero info about race, racist, racial or racism.
The Atlantic "Politics" - The word "racist" was used once in that article which equates into trivial mention of the author's opinion. [38]"Trump claimedthe judge could not fairly preside over the Trump University cases because of Curiel’s “Mexican heritage.” (Curiel is from Indiana; his parents are Mexican immigrants.) “I’m building a wall, it’s an inherent conflict of interest,” he added." The article is also cited to the WSJ article.
CNN Politics - article attempts to make it a racial issue which is the leniency political commentary enjoys. Opinions are not statements of fact. The weight of that article leans equally to Trump's responses to Trapper's allegations; i.e., Trump's concern that the Judge was biased toward HIM, not the other way around. Trump's defense: "Based on the rulings that I have received in the Trump University civil case, I feel justified in questioning whether I am receiving a fair trial," Trump said. He also referenced "the core issues of my campaign that focus on illegal immigration, jobs and unfair trade" in explaining his criticism.
Summary - the section is poorly sourced, one-sided and does not reflect Trump's views. In fact, his views were totally omitted. Atsme📞📧21:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the NPOV/N discussion has done some good....
SPECIFICO - I was reading over some of your suggestions at NPOV/N, and one thing in particular struck a chord when you said: My personal view, fyi, which I stated on the article talk page in discussing a certain NY Times article that I believe supports this view, is that Trump is indifferent to race. It's not a category he cares about. It made me think of a few articles I read that align with that same principal.
See HuffPo wherein Trump Jr. says his Dad doesn't see color, he sees the economy, *It is pretty much corroborated by the Real Clear Politics article by Larry Elder titled Trump's Victory: Even Charlie 'Race Card' Rangel Doesn't Blame 'Whitelash, which focuses on the views of Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-NY). The article states: At the Harvard post-election symposium, top Clinton aides accused Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway of blatantly courting America's white racists. But Rangel argues that root cause is middle-class economic anxiety. The article also states: "But free from the pressures of getting reelected, Rangel told the truth. The charge that Trump is racist, sexist, homophobic and Islamophobic is bogus -- and the voters saw through it.
And there's also the following article wherein Shelby Steele, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute, shares his views about how Trump sees race issues in the US: Steele sees President Donald Trump as indifferent to the cultural pressures of race privileges, by his insisting on the same laws applying to all Americans. “Well, it almost looks a little lightweight,” Steele says, “but it’s actually kind of profound. It’s where the whole country needs to move.”
Yes, and I went on to say that's like a driver being indifferent to traffic signals. Not acceptable or legal, but it does explain wanton reckless behavior. There's been a substantial body of RS discussion of Trump that tries to provide a unified theory of his behavior as an expression of a narcissistic personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just kind of inconsistent with holding high political office. But these same sources go on to say that Trump and those around him did not really expect him to win the election, and so everything would have worked out happy-hippo. You can forget the Daily Caller as a WP source, btw. SPECIFICOtalk17:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've read this a few times through and it appears to me that the subsection is far too detailed for this article, especially as a link to the main article is provided. All that is required is some brief details of the case, including the race of the 5, with the point that they were convicted before their convictions were vacated following DNA evidence confirming that someone else was responsible, but that Trump refused to accept this outcome and his refusal has been categorised as racist. We do not need all the detail to retry the case as the issue is Trump's behaviour and the fact is was viewed as racist. I will make some small edits to condense the subsection, small enough so that editors can revert if they think I have removed something pertinent to this article Birtig (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's one of the most well-covered incidents of Trump's reported racism out there, so I'm a little skeptical of claims that it's given too much weight. That being said, do a proposal edit (edit the section to your preferred state, then self-revert, or just write up the section the way it should be done in your sandbox) and link that edit here, and I might well be perfectly fine with it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.19:42, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at it, and I reverted. The bit that you removed makes a rather large change to the narrative of that section, and since it's verifiable, I'm not okay with removing it. It's quite important to establish the innocence of the CP5 whenever we cover them, as that's their central defining feature. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.20:08, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Bumping thread. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:02, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
working on it now...Atsme📞📧 17:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
— JFG talk 22:19, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
💔 😷 - dint feel a thing. Atsme📞📧 00:55, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
See #3 click on the diff, or scroll up to the start of this thread - a subsection in History.
- VM, you're argument is not convincing. Atsme📞📧 18:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 20:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
