Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 January 18

18 January 2015

The Weight of Chains 2

The Weight of Chains 2 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Since the vote in late September 2014, the film sequel has been released worldwide, with premieres at the Montecasino Film Festial in Johannesburg, South Africa, the Swedish Film Institute in Stockholm, Sweden and the National Museum of Culture in Mexico City (also shown in Vancouver, Toronto, Innsbruck, Stuttgart, Berlin, etc.). I added notable references for the article which has been greatly expanded. UrbanVillager (talk) 13:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

• I closed the original AfD. I have suggested to UrbanVillager that trying to build consensus for this at Talk:The Weight of Chains would be a lighter-weight (and thus superior) process than DRV. FWIW, if events have unfolded over time which make the issues raised in the AfD no longer valid, then restoring the article may make sense, but I'll leave that to other people to decide. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Overturn - The film appears to have been shown in many locations and the interviewees are known/significant people. This has also been sourced in the version that User:Urbanvillager linked to. Therefore, it seems notable enough to have its own article. Having it as a footnote to "The Weight of Chains 1" feels like an inadequate and aesthetically ugly solution. If someone then proceeded to add the proper template to the second movie as well, in that article, it would look even worse. - Anonimski (talk) 21:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, Overturn. --UrbanVillager (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Nothing to do here. Deletion discussions that end with a redirect or other non-delete decision can be amended by talk page consensus or WP:BB. Stifle (talk) 09:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
• Uphold the earlier AfD, since there's lots of bluster but not much actual evidence of notablity. bobrayner (talk) 01:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Uphold the 'multiple locations' described above represent single screenings (many non-commercial, and many free ie approx. 10 audiences have seen the film, some at free showings). The two festival screenings are possibly notable, however the only source for the contents of the film are (oldish) interviews with the film maker himself (self-sourced info). No reviews appear to be available or seem likely to appear in the near future. I do not see any need for a seperate article at present as this new material can easily be incorporated into its present 'redirect' section.Pincrete (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse original AfD close and restore. The AfD close was an accurate assessment of the consensus in the discussion. RoySmith was correct in closing as redirect with the history preserved under the redirect rather than delete. This has allowed editors to work on the article after new sources surfaced without having to ask an admin to restore the article. This is a clear example of a scenario I mentioned at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 July 19#Westshore Town Centre:

  The only benefit of keeping the edit history deleted that I can see would be to prevent users from undoing the redirect and restoring the deleted content. But this is easily remedied by reverting the restoration and fully protecting the redirect.

  A benefit of restoring the article's history would be to allow non-admins to see what the encyclopedia once said about the subject.

  Using the deleted content for a merge is not the only benefit. Another example is that in the future if sources surface that demonstrate notability, the deleted content can be easily reviewed. Without needing to ask an admin, a non-admin could determine whether the deleted content could be used as the basis of a newly recreated article with the new sources. Deletion would hinder this.

  In sum, the benefits of restoring the deleted content outweigh the negligible negatives, so the article's history should be restored under the redirect.

  I recommend restoring the article (which has already been done) because circumstances have changed. The film has now premiered and new sources have surfaced and been added to the article:
  1. http://www.tanjug.rs/novosti/161646/premijera-dokumentarca-tezina-lanaca-2-31--januara.htm^WebCite
  2. http://www.subotica.com/vesti/intervju-boris-malagurski-id14150.html^WebCite
  3. http://baneff.com/2014/11/25/wight-of-chains-2-european-premiere-29th-november-2014-sfi-stockholm/^WebCite
  4. http://www.mexicoescultura.com/actividad/123869/El peso de las cadenas, parte 2.html^WebCite
  I am unfamiliar with the sources' publishers so do not know how reliable they are. If editors still believe the subject is not notable, then that discussion should be held at another AfD.

  Cunard (talk) 01:29, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The first source is from Tanjug, the Serbian state news agency. Subotica.com is a generalistic website of the city of Subotica. baneff.com is the official website of BaNeFF - Balkan New Film Festival. mexicoescultura.com is one of the main Mexican websites about cultural events. FkpCascais (talk) 05:19, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Overturn - per UrbanVillager and Anonimski. FkpCascais (talk) 05:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Would UrbanVillager please stop replying and challenging every comment? Stifle (talk) 14:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions, just to point out that ALL the 'political' films of Malagurski (inc Weight of Chains), are subject to discretionary sanctions. This arose as a result of a suggestion by Ivanvector, in an ANI initiated by Ricky81682. The relevant ANI section is here:[1]. IF consensus is to restore Weight of Chains 2, it would seem prudent to extend discretionary sanctions to this page. Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 26 January 2015 (UTC) …… nb this has now been done by Ivanvector. Pincrete (talk) 01:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Just elaborating/clarifying: discretionary sanctions are in effect for Balkans topics, and the maker of this film is a person who makes controversial films on apparently fringe-y Balkan topics, so I suggested that discretionary sanctions should apply to this article. The discussion Pincrete linked to seemed to confirm that. Clarifying that I did not decide that discretionary sanctions are definitely in effect - that is up to either the community or the Arbitration Committee (I think ArbCom in this case). Also pointing out that I am not an administrator because I think there might be some confusion. Ivanvector (talk) 02:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse close, allow restoration - There's nothing to do here. Consensus was that the article should be a redirect because the film had not yet been released. The close was proper. Now that the film has been released, the having-not-been-released reason for the original deletion discussion no longer exists, thus that consensus is moot. Nothing wrong with having recreated the article at this point. If editors here feel that there are other, non-not-being-released reasons for deletion, that is the subject for a fresh AfD. Go to. Ivanvector (talk) 23:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Note to closer - I have refactored a number of back-and-forth sniping comments from a few editors which were not constructive to this discussion, in the interest of keeping this civil and on-topic. If you are interested in them anyway, please see this diff. Ivanvector (talk) 23:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Did you really remove a diff showing that UrbanVillager canvassed supporters? That is unlikely to help the closer gauge the community's true position. bobrayner (talk) 00:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, beg to differ, the primary arguments for redirect (not delete), were lack of notability (not being released compounded this), and lack of sources apart from the film maker himself. These arguments are still valid. In the case of Weight of Chains 1, it has taken four years to collect three reviews (and two comments, one written by a student). There are NO reviews of this sequel and are unlikely to be any in the near future. My argument remains that the scant amount of available info and the few screenings can easily be accommodated within the present 'sequel' section of the first film. Pincrete (talk) 01:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you're partly right. I'll point out that several of the "delete" arguments were actually arguments for redirecting to where the film is mentioned. I do think that the closer's assessment was correct, and absent a reason to overturn the close it should be endorsed. However, the situation has changed from when the AfD ran to now, since the film has been released. The close did not forbid creation of the article in the future, and from what I read there was at least a rough consensus that the article could be restored if the film were released and otherwise met notability criteria, and I don't see any reason to disagree with that. Reinstating an article over a redirect is a perfectly reasonable WP:BOLD action, and I think reasonable in this instance. If the reinstated article has not satisfied the requirements to establish notability, (and from your points it seems this is a valid concern), then bringing it to a new AfD is the proper course of action. However, my guess is that the best result will be it being redirected again, then recreated again when new sources are found, and to be honest with you it might just not be worth your effort to keep trying to delete this. Ivanvector (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)