Talk:Scandinavia

Additions to Historical political structure

It think that we should add column for Estonia and perhaps for Latvia too to the Historical political structure scheme. As there are already countries such Iceland and Finland covered there, I don't see reason why Estonia should not be there. To be more precise, I propose that: 1) 13th century: Northern part of Estonia was part of Denmark from early 13th century to mid 14th century. 2) 16th century: Denmark again obtained foothold in Estonia by acquiring the island of Saaremaa in Livonian War roughly in the second half of 16th century, as did Sweden. 3) 17th century: Sweden obtained full control over Estonia at 17th century and controlled Estonia until Great Northern War at begging 18th century. It think it is therefore justified to add at least Estonia the Historical political structure scheme.

Are there any objections to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4rdi (talk • contribs) 21:27, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced additions and changes

Many of the recent additions to this article are unsourced speculations and changes to sourced text. I have sourced one section (about Finland and Iceland), but the following problematic edits remain to be dealt with:

1. Self-styled (unsourced) comparative study added about Scandinavia/Scandinavians vs. "the Orient"/"Indian": While the former occupancy of Finland and shifting rule of Norway may have made this usage efficient, if not convenient – even after Norway and Finland resumed their national independence – this usage appears to be no more grounded in respect for the nations themselves than the term "Orient" is as a reference to various nations in the Eastern Hemisphere or "Indian" is as a reference for various tribal nations in the Americas. Please attribute these speculations, using WP:reliable sources. Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought.
2. Cited text altered. A section that cites a published source has been altered. The original text read: "Being a purely historical and cultural region, Scandinavia has no official geopolitical borders. The region is therefore often defined according to the conventions of different disciplines or according to the political and cultural communities of the area.<ref name="olwig">Olwig, Kenneth R. "Introduction: The Nature of Cultural Heritage, and the Culture of Natural Heritage—Northern Perspectives on a Contested Patrimony". ''International Journal of Heritage Studies'', Vol. 11, No. 1, March 2005, pp. 3–7.</ref> Please add a direct quote from the source in the ref tag which confirms that the source is not being misrepresented/misquoted by the changes implemented. See WP:BURDEN: "The source cited must directly support the information as it is presented in the article.[2] When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference."
3. The article's lead has been made into a single paragraph. See the style manual regarding desired length of leads for articles around 32 kilobytes. This article is 59 kilobytes long! The two important paragraphs that summarized what the articles spends so many sections on, namely how the usage differs (in for example different disciplines) has been deleted. This aspect has also been chopped out of a direct quote from Encyclopedia Britannica. In the supporting footnote, EB is quoted as saying: "Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland ... and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands ....". The full quote reads: "Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland on geologic and economic grounds and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on the grounds that their inhabitants speak North Germanic (or Scandinavian) languages related to those of Norway and Sweden. These issues are essential and need to be mentioned in the lead.
4. Peripheral issue inserted: a strange and totally irrelevant discussion about the adjective Nordic has been added to this article: "Some American-English dictionaries, such as Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, do not include the names "Nordic Countries" or "Nordic Council". Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary instead defines Nordic as an adjective dated to 1898 with the meaning "of or relating to the Germanic peoples of northern Europe and especially of Scandinavia."<ref>[http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/nordic "Nordic"]. In Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. Retrieved 9 January 2008.</ref>. Please explain the significance of the 1898 definition of Nordic for this article (named Scandinavia), as well as the importance of the lacking coverage of Nordic Countries/Nordic Council in a particular dictionary? Does the dictionary perhaps list the Nordic Council as the "Scandinavian Council"? That would be odd enough to mention, but otherwise I fail to see why these two observations about Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary would be even remotely relevant here. Wikipedia already has an article about the Nordic countries. Please add it there. I'm removing it from this article.

As for the other problem spots mentioned, I will tagg them {{dubious}} and {{citation needed}}, and make them invisible for the time being. When they are properly sourced, please feel free to remove the invisibility tags. 71.107.15.189 (talk) 03:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

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I have a beef about the section regarding 'Terminology and usage': The author writes about the incursion and occupation of Finland by Sweden. Finland was never an entity before it was seperated from Sweden in 1809. Swedes and Finns were of one nation for almost 800 years. Finland was a mere region of Sweden and nothing else. In the section 'Variations in usage' it's mentioned when '...Norway and Finland resumed their national independence' Finland had never been a free country until 1917, when Finland declared themself independent, so therefore making it impossible to 'resume' anything. /A --Azygos (talk) 02:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Weasel

The article starts off by boldly telling people what Scandinavia is "generally" consiedered to be. As the talk page makes very clear, this is a contested issue and anyone claiming that their own view is the general view is merely POV-pushing. Regardless which definition one goes for, sources can be found to support it, so not even by using a source is it possible to claim what Scandinavia "generally" is, not as long as other sources can be used to contradict it. JdeJ (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Denmark & the definition of Scandinavia

Denmark should not be considered a part of Scandinavia as Scandinavia is the name of the mountain-range/half-island that only Sweden and Norway is a part of. Danes have a Norse/Scandinavian culture but that doesn't make it a part of Scandinavia. Finland has a greater claim to being part of Scandinavia then what Denmark has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.132.174 (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I recommend you actually read the article as well as the article on the Scandinavian peninsula. That may straighten out the incorrect notion you hold about the term "Scandinavia". --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Scandinavian Peninsula is named after Scandinavia (Den, Nor, Swe).

Bahrain is located in the Persian gulf, that does not mean Bahrain is Persian. Neither is Finland Scandinavian. --JHF1000 (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Historical political structure

Under "Historical political structure" it says that there were Pict/Celt minorities in Iceland and Faroes. There were in reality slaves that intermarried within few generations. There were never any minorities as there are of Finns in Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.157.184.146 (talk) 09:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden, and is an unambiguous term

I'm a bit fed up by ignorant foreigners who have misunderstood the meaning of the name Scandinavia. In Scandinavia, the term is used unambiguously for Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Other countries are not included. It's simply incorrect. Instead, the term Nordic countries cover Scandinavia + Finland and Iceland. Scandinavia share a language and a culture which neither Finland nor Iceland are sharing (except for small culturally Scandinavian minorities living in those countries). Lindatavlov (talk) 05:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please remember that this is an encyclopaedia for everyone, not just you. I have heard many times Scandinavia to also include Finland, even within the narrower definition that you declare. As a Swedish-speaking Finn, I consider Finland to be a Scandinavian country. However, I realise that does not make it one in the eyes of everyone in the same way as your strong belief that Scandinavia does not include Finland will not be shared by all. The fact that there is more than one definition to be found shows that there is a considerable degree of ambiguity! 94pjg (talk) 22:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It is of course possible to speak a Scandinavian language without living in Scandinavia, just as it is possible to speak English without living in England! Icelandic is a Scandinavian language, but still, Iceland is not a part of Scandinavia! --Oddeivind (talk) 18:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not quite that simple. In English, as opposed to some Scandinavian languages, the term Scandinavia is relatively often used to include both Iceland and Finland. Looking at books in English, this usage seems to at least as common, if not more common, than using Scandinavia to refer only to Sweden, Denmark or Norway.JdeJ (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Definitions are hard. Especially if you consider how they used to be defining. Dolphins are often called fish for instance. Does that mean fish includes dolphins? or does it mean a lot of people don't understand what Dolphins are or where Finns come from? Carewolf (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Culture - Metal Music

Scandanavia, particularly Sweden and Norway are known world over as the central points for extreme metal music, especially black metal, and this important cultural export should probably be mentioned in the article somewhere. Many great bands such as Marduk, Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Dimmu Borgir, Carpathian Forest, Bathory, Dark Funeral, Immortal, etc etc all hail from Scandanavia and are famous around the world on all continents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.63.116.221 (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Fennoman movement

The paragraph about the Fennoman movement (at Finland and Scandinavia) is horribly wrong, missinterpreting the source. The people in the Fennoman movement in the 19th century were mostly Swedish-speaking upper class and the movement was not about lingual or ethnic rights but about forming a new nation. The opposing Svecomans had worries that emphasizing Finnish would weaken Finland and its the bounds to the western world, while the Fennomans regarded the Finnish language as essential for the new Finnish nation.

I do not have good sources at hand and my English is not good enough for correctly describing the subtleties if the matter, but this should be corrected.

--LPfi (talk) 10:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

you tell me nothing

i looked at this website for homework that i coudn't find in the book and you told me nothing of the question that i asked you............. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.6.50.132 (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The whole website o.O That's quite a feat. Try our reference desk - Kingpin13 (talk) 10:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Another Definition Gripe

I find one line in the introduction particularly poorly worded: "in Scandinavia the term [Scandinavia] is used unambiguously to refer only to Denmark, Norway and Sweden...". I don't want to continue the debate about which countries comprise Scandinavia and which do not, but this is certainly more confusing than it is helpful. It's not at all clear what this sentence actually means, though the implication is that in DK, NO, and SE the term refers to those three nations together. Given the disagreement surrounding the definition of Scandinavia, it would likely be best to reword this or remove it.

Nlacara (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

"While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland,[3][4] in Scandinavia the term is used unambiguously to refer only to Denmark, Norway and Sweden, which share a mutually intelligible language (a dialect continuum), ethnic composition and have close cultural and historic bonds, to a degree that Scandinavians may be considered one people (see scandinavism)."

In addition to the circle definition there is the problem about the (unsourced) description that follows. Finland Swedes share the same language (as much as the others do) and the cultural and historic bounds. On the other hand the sami people probably do not share them, at least not in the same way. And what is the shared ethnic composition supposed to mean? I think nobody regards the Scandinavians as one people these days.

The close cultural bounds are used in Nordic cooperation, where Finnish and especially Icelanders use a second language (Swedish and Dannish respectively) to take equal part in the cooperation.

--LPfi (talk) 08:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Scandza/Jordanes

"In Jordanes' history of the Goths (AD 551) the form Scandza is used for their original home, separated by sea from the land of Europe (chapter 1, 4). Where Jordanes meant to locate this quasi-legendary island is still a hotly debated issue, both in scholarly discussions and in the nationalistic discourse of various European countries."

This isn't true, and the references don't support almost any of it. First: There doesn't seem to be any dispute whatsoever on whether Jordanes' Scandza was Scania/Scandinavia or not. Goffart (the better reference) is skeptical on whether Scandza really was the original home of the Goths, but he does not seem to dispute that Jordanes meant Scandinavia. (In fact he argues that Jordanes may have based Scandza off existing sources on Scandinavia, such as Ptolemy.) Also, the majority opinion would still seem to support Jordanes claim though (and Goffart seems to acknowledge that). Second: It's not part of the 'nationalistic discourse' anywhere, AFAIK. Gothicism has been stone-dead for over a century now. In any case, controversy over the Goths origins belongs in the article on the Goths. This article is about Scandinavia and Jordanes is still considered about as good as any early source on that. (unlike the hyperborean ideas) --Pykk (talk) 02:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

B-class really?

Really? REALLY?! Anyone read NPOV guidelines or noticed that this article has huge amounts of non-cited material? Not to mention the plain WRONG and misleading information? Fareoes and Aland are not independent countries, so the timeline on what countries where in what political structure, while interesting and very cool, need to be updated regarding that Aland IS Finland and the Faeroes ARE in Denmark, not independent. The lead (or lede as some like to be stupid about it) reads very much like two squabling authors who are arguing about Finland and whether it matters what the people outside Scandinavia consider Scandinavia to be (btw- yes it does matter ALOT, and even in many cases MORE important what people outside Sc. consider to be in Sc. than it does what the Scandinavians say). That's where the POV problems are. There's alot that needs citations and cleaned up. B-class is unacceptable the way this is currently. Please clean it up, or change the rating.Camelbinky (talk) 02:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

POV - This is English Wikipedia

I realize that most users editing this article will be Scandinavians themselves and that they probably are unaware of their own bias, but that doesn't change much - this is English Wikipedia and English usage is what matters. It is perfectly true that Skandinavien is almost exclusively (and I say almost to allow for doubt though I'm unaware of any) taken to mean Denmark, Norway and Sweden. That is how the argument should go in those Wikipedias, but not here (WP:UE). In common English usage, Finland is almost always included in Scandinavia, and Iceland is not rare either. Look up any guidebook to Scandinavia in English (or most other languages) and it will include Finland. Are guidebooks reliable academic sources? Definitely not, but they are certainly indicative of common usage. For every person looking up a definition of Scandinavia in Britannica, there will probably be 1000 looking at a Lonely Planet, Rough Guide, Frommer's, Fodor etc. Now, this article is firmly rooted in the Skandinavien view. Already in the introduction this is made evident, and then a large amount of space is spent on explaining how The Nordic Countries differ from Scandinavia. This is relevant in Swedish, but irrelevant in English where Scandinavia is almost always used instead of The Nordic Countries. What people need to understand is that the Skandinavien-view is not the corect point of view. Using English does not only mean to use English words and grammar, it also entails following English usage. To virtually all English speakers, Scandinavia is the Nordic Countries, sometimes without Iceland. The definition of the word in Scandinavia itself can be mentioned in the article, but devoting half the article to that mean and even implying that that usage is "correct" and the English usage somehow "mistaken" is plain POV, although the users doing so probably are in good faith. Being Swedish myself, I'm well aware of how well-rooted we are in the belief that the Swedish way of thinking by definition is the correct one and that we should "explain" to the rest of the world how it really is. This article falls into that very trap, making it highly POV.Jeppiz (talk) 03:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that we should always remember which language version of Wikipedia we are editing. When it comes to Scandinavia, it really does depend where you are. Until very recently, the overwhelming meaning of the term in the German-speaking world referred to Norway, Sweden and Finland (i.e. notably excluding Denmark). In Finland, usage often includes Finland - especially when used by Swedish-speaking Finns. I would also point out that the following sentence, in the introduction, does not make sense as it contradicts itself. It states both that Scandinavia does not have a single fixed meaning and then goes on to state that in 'Scandinavia' there is some form of unambiguous usage. That's problematic if, for instance, a Finn considers himself as being in Scandinavia!

"While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland,[3][4] in Scandinavia the term is used unambiguously to refer only to Denmark, Norway and Sweden." 94pjg (talk) 23:31, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

As this is an encyclopedia, we should be correct, not present misunderstandings as facts. If 90 % of the world population believed Earth to be flat, should we accept that as a fact even it's wrong just because some ignorant people believe it? Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It's an unambigous term, there is no question which countries are part of Scandinavia. Just like Russia is not part of Africa, Finland is not part of Scandinavia. A lot of ignorant Americans believe Norway to be the capital of Sweden and hold similar ignorant beliefs. It doesn't make it correct. Keldjylland (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)