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January 6

Therapy

In the holiness article, some editor claims that therapy means to heal. The idea seems to be to show that the desired result of modern psychotherapy is the same as the idea of "to be holy". This reads like an psychology student's term paper (Write 600 words on "Psychotherapy as the new religion"?), and I have a major problem with the claim that "therapy" means "to heal". It does not mean "to heal" in modern language, and I found no evidence that it has ever meant anything other than simply "to treat (medically)". Does anyone have information that therapy does etymologically relate to healing, other than the thesaurus type of connection. --Seejyb 09:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Greek verb therapeuō is defined in my middle Liddell and Scott as originally meaning "to be an attendant, to wait on, to serve", but also developing the meaning of "to tend the sick, to treat medically, to heal, to cure". P.S. There should be an article on Liddell and Scott... AnonMoos 12:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Five-penny nail ?

What's the origin and meaning, for that matter of an "n-penny nail". StuRat 15:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's the amount of money paid for 100 nails in the old days. [1] tells the tale nicely. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. It's rather foolish to name your product after the current price, somebody should have told Netzero that. StuRat 17:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, just buy your nails in Canada and you will find them labeled by length. --Anonymous, January 07, '07, 05:37 (UTC).

... or Motel 6. I wonder how long it'll be before the 99 Cents Only Stores gets in trouble. Bunthorne 00:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. They'll go the way of the five-and-dime. Black Carrot 17:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You have to understand that people once viewed gold and silver not merely as solid commodities embedding value but as the definition of value. If something cost an ounce of silver, that was understood as its value - as an immutable property of the thing that was the same everywhere and forever. Mercantilism covers some of that idea.

So long as currency units were understood as nothing more than measures of quantities of precious metals, and as changes in industrial productivity were so slow that they were difficult to see over the course of a lifetime, there was no reason to ever expect that the price of a core commodity like nails should ever have to change in price, or vary significantly over a single currency area. You still see vestiges of the idea that metal, currency, wealth, and economic value are synonyms in the vocabulary of many European languages. Most germanic languages still use the same word for "gold" as for "money", while French uses the word for "silver" for money in general. Currency units like the pound stirling, peso, lira and ruble all derive their names from the quantities of metal they once represented.

Economists by the 19th century already understood that gold and silver were just shiny metals and industrial-age currency was an artificial commodity linked to more fluid concepts like credit and liquidity, but folk mercantilism is a deeply embedded concept in people's minds. It was only with late 19th and early 20th century changes in productivity and inflation that the link was broken for most people - that they began to see currency as something less constant and prices as something flexible. Even today, most people still think of their own wealth in terms of their immediate access to a quantity of money, as if they had a stack of gold ingots in their basement instead of a rather less solid mass of social and legal obligations.

But seeing how long those ideas persisted, and how deeply they are embedded in occidental culture, it's no big shock to see them reflected in vocabulary. --Diderot 19:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, with something like nails, it makes sense -- it would be a premium for the workmanship on the relative value of iron vs. that of copper pennies, perhaps? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that amounts to the same thing, but taking labour, iron and copper as the constant measure of value instead of gold and silver. If relative metal prices are steady and labour productivity is roughly constant, there's no need to expect prices to change and value can be expressed as a constant in a universal unit. People once thought of the dollar as a unit of measure as fundamentally unchangeable as a foot or a gallon. --Diderot 19:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

self preservation

hello. im christina and im having a difficult time coming up with my final essay in english because its with relation to the play "a dolls house" but i have to write about noras "SELF PRESERVATION" i dont really know what self preservation is and i cant seem to find a helpful / easy understood definition. please help. thank you SO much —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Christina130 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Basically, self preservation is a selfish will to survive, literally or figuratively. On a side note, be sure to clean up on your grammar when you actually type the essay.--SeizureDog 06:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Self preservation isn't necessarily selfish. Clarityfiend 06:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Concerning trademarks with punctuation at the end of sentences

Which is more correct:

Asa Shigure is a character in Shuffle!
or
Asa Shigure is a character in Shuffle!.

Shuffle! being the actual title of course. And if the second option is correct, what about when the trademark doubles the punctation normally used? The next example involves Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Have you seen Whose Line Is It Anyway?
or
Have you seen Whose Line Is It Anyway??

Personally, I go by dropping periods (full stops) and identical punctuation marks, but keep exclamation points and question marks if they differ (so I would say "Have you seen Shuffle!?"). Of course, ideally you avoid the problem by making them not at the end, but let's just forget that.--SeizureDog 06:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Using italics should help, like you did! :-) Carcharoth 06:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, double exclamation or question marks, or even combinations, can be used to mean something, both for extra emphasis and in chess notation. See !!, ??, !?, ?!, and so on. Hmm ?? is missing from that list. Carcharoth 06:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Added ??. Hands up though who had never heard of an interrobang! :-) For those who are interested, !? and ?! mean 'interesting' and 'doubtful' in chess notation. Carcharoth 06:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Its vs it's

I recently got into a discussion with someone about its versus it's, and they said: "As for using "it's" to describe "the property of it", that's not a typo, I choose to write it that way" - does anyone know what justification might be used for this? Carcharoth 06:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The three I can think of are called ignorance, wrong-headedness, and stubbornness.  --Lambiam^Talk 06:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

If this person writes "his" and "hers", you might also cite inconsistency.--Shantavira 09:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I imagine the justification is that it's simply "it" plus the possessive suffix -'s, like most possessives which are written with apostrophes. --Ptcamn 09:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

In which case (as Shantavira alluded to) the person should also use "I's", "He's". "She's", "We's", "You's", "They's" and "Who's" in place of "my", "his", "her", "our", "your", "their" and "whose". Daniel (‽) 17:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Named for it

I keep coming across the expression "named for it", which in the UK would invariably be "named after it". (For example, in Vale of Tempe we find "The city of Tempe, Arizona is named for it.") Is "named for it" really considered correct usage in the USA? Is "named after it" correct everywhere?--Shantavira 09:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

We Americans use both versions. --SeizureDog 11:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 November 6#'Named for' vs. 'named after'.  --Lambiam^Talk 14:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

January 7

Lindsay Armaou

How do you say Lindsay Gael Christina Armaou in Greek? Lilyfan87 16:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Armaou is Αρμάου. I have no idea about the rest, they're not greek are they? Paul Silverman 11:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

They should be able to be transcribed nevertheless, "Lindsei Gael Kristina"? Is transcription into Greek based on sound or letter? 惑乱 分からん 13:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Transcription into Greek is in principle phonetic, although not all English phonemes van be mappeed one-to-one on Greek phonemes (and Greek spelling has some phonemnic ambiguities as well). My best guess is that the transcription of vthe full name would come out as Λίντσεϋ Γαίηλ Κριστίνα Αρμάου.  --Lambiam^Talk 15:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

"Left-bank."

In Jan Harlan's documentary about Stanley Kubrick, A Life in Pictures, there's an interview with a fellow who says "He was not a bohemian, left-bank figure." What does left-bank mean in this context? I'm assuming by its context that it's in the vein of bohemian, avant-garde, etc but I'm still interested. The disambiguation page at left bank only points to various places. Pesapluvo 17:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless otherwise stated, this normally refers to the Rive Gauche, which is the first link on the disambiguation page. Its meaning is described there.--Shantavira 17:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Halo

You may have seen Paravonian's joke about Sugar Ray's song Every Morning [2]. I've looked up the lyrics, and I've read its entry on SongMeanings [3], but I'm having some trouble with it. I can buy that he's being cheated on more easily than that he's cheating, since that way more of the song makes sense, and it seems unlikely that they would have marketed a song that creepy to the teenage-girl market, but I'm having trouble with figuring out what object (real or metaphorical) is "hanging from the corner of her four-post bed". It's been suggested that Halo is either a brand of or slang word for condom, but I can't find anything anywhere backing that up, and it doesn't really make sense when you insert that into the song. It's been suggested that it symbolizes her boundless (and fake) innocence, which fits better the claim that she's always sweet-talking him back when he finds out she's cheated on him. In other words, that every morning she gives him the puppy-dog eyes and he just can't believe she'd do something like that. The interpretation of the line following that then is that he wants to use either a) fake innocence or b) her infidelity as justification for a revenge lay. Any ideas? Black Carrot 17:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

All told, while Mark McGrath did graduate from USC, it's wise to hesitate when reading and interpreting a pop song using the same techniques used to analyze poetry; as I'm sure you know, they're just not written with the same care and attention to detail, imagery, meter, etc. Having said that, and having gone to both your links, I think your interpretation (i.e. that he's being cheated, and where you refer to puppy-dog eyes) is as good or better than any other reading. The feedback at songmeanings.net consistently overlooked how, in the second verse, heartache replaces the halo, yet I think this moment in the lyrics supports your reading. As for halos standing in for condoms, one of the two Urban Dictionary entries actually refers to the song. While the Urban Dictionary is hardly the most credible source, sometimes it's the only one.Wolfgangus 03:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

IPA transcription for Enya and Maire Brennan

Can anyone transcribe Máire Ní Bhraonáin and Eithne Patricia Ní Bhraonáin to IPA in Irish? --Sergiusz Szczebrzeszyński ^{|talk to me||what i've done||e|} 19:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Máire is /mˠaːrʲə/ and Eithne Patricia is /ɛnʲə pˠat̪ˠrʲəciə/. For good measure, their brother's name Pól is /pˠoːɫ/. Ní Bhraonáin is /nʲiː wɾˠiːn̪ˠaːn/. I broke the names up to make the IPA a little easier to read. For future reference, the article on Irish orthography treats this pretty thoroughly. --Limetom 11:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Australia

Why is Australia named Australia . What does the word mean. Where did it come from. Tanya oatley (talk · contribs)

It comes from the Latin Australis, meaning 'of the south'. Clio the Muse 20:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

(restoring my edit which mysteriously disappeared) It's explained in more detail in the article on Australia, under the section called "Etymology". JackofOz 01:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You may also find the article on New Holland (Australia) and Terra Australis interesting. Vespine 03:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

January 8

"A threat to mankind"

When i am asking "Is it a threat to mankind?", should the 'm' in 'mankind' be capitalized? Jamesino 00:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I general writing, I don't think so. 惑乱 分からん 01:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

As a general rule, caps apply to proper nouns and words derived from proper nouns. "Mankind" is neither. --Diderot 17:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course if you're talking about the wrestler, then yeah, it should be capitalised. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 12:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a style reason to capitalize - it's more "dramatic" (hammy) to read "Is it a threat to Mankind?" (possible better as "Is it a threat to all Mankind?". This isn't to say it is correct to do so, but rather it can deliver a desired effect upon the reader - often in this case to laugh. Robovski 05:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

No; mankind isn't a proper noun. Were it, say, "A threat to Poland", then obviously Poland would be capitalized.chiyo_no_saru 05:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

ycleft?

Can anyone find a definition for ycelft? I can't find a definition for the word anywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.231.205.94 (talk) 03:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

That is because it is either misspelled, or a jocular pseudo-archaic form of "cleft". See yclept.  --Lambiam^Talk 04:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

...do you mean Wyclef Jean? -Elmer Clark 07:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Latin name list translation needed

Latin ———————————–––- English

• ADAM - Adam (I assume)
• NOE
• NEMROTH
• NINUS
• SEMIRAMIS
• ABRAAM
• YSAAC
• IACOB
• IOSEPH
• MOYSES
• IASON
• HERCULES

Thanks... --Doug 14:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

See Adam, Noah or Noach, Nimrod, Ninus, Semiramis, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jason, and Hercules.  --Lambiam^Talk 14:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Lambiam...... --Doug 15:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The name Hercules is often said to be a Latin translation of Herakles, although the two can be considered different beings. Laïka 16:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Where does this list of names appear? In Jerome's Vulgate the name of Nimrod is Nemrod, and Abraam is not mentioned, it is Abram or Abraham. --Seejyb 21:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Petrarch's De viris illustribus.[4] Why he spells the name Nimrod/Nemrod with a "th" I don't know (the name in Hebrew ends with a dalet), but since the passage is about a king of Babylon who is a dedicated hunter, there is no doubt that this is our friend Nimrod.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for giving me these names in English and linking to Wikipedia. --Doug ^talk 22:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Latin translation

Do these words basically mean that of the "Preface" of a book and the "Forward" of a book? Are these Latin words or Italian words? Does the word "Liber" basically then mean that of an ordinary book (fiction or non-fiction) or something closer to a manuscript (many pages, however perhaps not a book) or just a document (of say one or two pages or just a few pages)?

• Frontespizio
• Prefatio

--Doug 16:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

"Frontespizio" is Italian. Vulgar (and I guess medieval) Latin would be "frontespicium". "Prefatio" appears to be well attested in medieval Latin - at least if Google is a good guide to attestation. And "liber" in late usage is a book in the sense of "Lord of the Rings: Book 1 - The Fellowship of the Ring". It seems to have ended up as a section label in large Latin tomes, and something like a manuscript when used to refer to a stand-alone work. Ovid's Metamorphoses uses "liber" for section headers, so it must have applied equally to fiction. --Diderot 16:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of "book" to which Diderot refers derives originally from how much you could fit into a scroll. This is the relevant sense when we're talking about the Iliad's 24 books, the Republic's ten, Pindar's three (lost) books of parthenia, etc. In Medieval works, the codex has replaced the scroll, so the meaning is no longer dictated by even this rough standard of quantity (except for an instinctive basis on Classical examples). In this context, it comes to be an authorial structuring device (whereas the oldest divisions, e.g. of the Homeric poems, were certainly not by the author). Wareh 20:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Italian frontespizio has the same meaning as English frontispiece, and late Latin prefatio the same as English preface.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

(Added links to above item --Anonymous, January 9, 00:09 (UTC))

Thanks all for these outstanding answers. --Doug ^talk 22:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

word meaning?

What does the word Inculcation mean. I have a vague idea, but am interested in a better difinition, and also some idea of how it could be used.Hidden secret 7 19:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

To inculcate: to instill (an attitude, idea, or habit) by persistent instruction; to teach (someone) an attitude, idea, or habit by such instruction. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I need a word...

[I hope this is the correct forum in which to ask this question]] - is there a word, and if so what would that word be, which means in essence 'to consciously misquote, or alter a quotation, for a effect' - e.g. if one were to say 'cometh the hour, cometh the woman', or 'there are three types of lies, lies, damned lies, and the daily mail'. --Neo 20:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a verb, but snowclone seems to be close to what you're after. --Ptcamn 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This sort of thing is often discussed by theorists of humor (who break the cardinal rule against explaining jokes). For typical examples, see the results of this google search. Wareh 21:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats the right kind of idea, but it seems that the phrases there must be a little more well known that the example of which I'm thinking - that is, there must be a heritage of replacing words in a given phrase with others. --Neo 12:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I would usually say the person was paraphrasing, but perhaps that's not specific enough for what you're thinking? Skittle 00:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

That was my first instinct, but I was unsure and checked: according to 'paraphrase' the term actually means to rephrase an acutal quotation while keeping the meaning the same - for instance 'to boldly go where no man has gone before' into 'to explore, without fear, lands untrodden by humankind'. --Neo 12:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, "paraphrase" is not an actual synonym for "misquote for effect", but it is often used, correctly, in sentences describing this process. When one is misquoting for effect, the usual form is "To paraphrase Voltaire,...". When one is relaying another's misquote, the form is "...paraphrased Voltaire, to the effect that..."--Pharos 11:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ngov

How do you pronounce the name "Ngov"? Thanks. --Proficient 22:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Likely with a velar nasal in front? Is it Vietnamese? 惑乱 分からん 23:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it's Vietnamese, as I can't think of any words in Vietnamese (from my limited knowledge) that end in 'v'. I think 'v' is only an initial consonant in Vietnamese, but I'm not sure. It sounds more like Cambodian to me, in which case the velar nasal would be appropriate.CCLemon-安部さん万歳！ 03:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not quite sure if it Vietnamese or not, either. But thanks for your help (both of you). If anyone else has heard of the name before, I'd be glad for more responses. --Proficient 06:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

A quick Google Search gave this if that is any help. It says the company Ngov Heng is based in Phnom Penh, so it looks like it's Cambodian.CCLemon-安部さん万歳！ 06:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think Khmer language phonotactics allow initial velar nasals, but I couldn't tell from the article on phonology. 惑乱 分からん 10:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

They do, yes, just like a large number of languages from that area. The problem is with the final v, which I believe is only limited to Khmer languages, as the other languages in Indo-China only have p, t, k, n, m, and ng as finals (generally).CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 21:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Lexicography

Are there any decent online, free sources on lexicography? I'd find it very interesting and useful for working on Wiktionary. Our WP article lists what appears to be good books, but nothing free. A google search didn't turn up anything except associations and definitions. But then again, I'm no google wizard. Thanks - Taxman ^Talk 04:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Related etymologies?

My Hindi dictionary give the etymology for बेहतर (behtar) as being from the Persian bĕhtar. The Hindi sounds fairly close to the English word better and does mean better or very good. This dictionary (Oxford Hindi-English) is pretty careful about giving it's etymologies and if it was straight from English to the Persian, it seems like it would have said so. The etymology for the English "better" is given in the Oxford English 2nd ed. as Old Teutonic and lists a number of Old English, Old Frisian, Old Saxon, etc usages. Nothing that looks directly related between the Hindi/Persian and English. Is it as simple as being from similar IE roots or more direct borrowing? As a side note, what are some good sources for looking up other language etymologies like this? Thank you. - Taxman ^Talk 04:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I heard they were unrelated. For other language etymologies, you often have to be able to read the language, in question. 惑乱 分からん 10:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Since "better" has been derived from the IE root bhad-, it does seem that it would be unrelated to the Hindi & Persian words. Wareh 13:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I would guess that they may as well be related! Sanskrit word close to better could be भद्रतर (bhadratar)which is from the root bhand, now since Persian and Sanskrit are pretty close so why can't they be related? User:Vineet Chaitanya

Actually I should not have been so quick. Taxman says that the Hindi word may be a borrowing from Persian, and, as the chart at Indo-European sound laws shows, IE bh became b in Persian (as in Germanic). Without checking a better reference for myself, though, I'm still wondering whether the etymology Taxman cites doesn't actually mean to say that the Hindi word is cognate with (as opposed to derived from) the Persian word. In that case, Sanskrit/Hindi b (as opposed to bh) would seem to rule out a connection to IE bhad-. In any case, Pokorny recognizes only Germanic derivatives of the root bhad-, so what Wakuran "heard" seems to be the standard view. Wareh 14:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely from the Persian. Basically in this case it's a Persian word borrowed into Hindi, like a large number of other Hindi words. But since the bh fell to b in the Germanic derivatives, what would lead you to say that wouldn't be possible in the Persian? Hindi carries the Indic distinction between the unaspirated b and the aspirated bh, but I don't believe Persian does. I suppose the question can't be answered without a source showing the etymology of the Persian word bĕhtar. - Taxman ^Talk 17:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think morphologically the Persian word is beh good + -tar for the comparative degree; for example khubtar = (also) better, bishtar = more, bozorgtar = bigger, moshkeltar = harder, zudtar = quicker. The development bhad > beh is hard to explain.  --Lambiam^Talk 18:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Since it is a Persian borrowing, then (as far as I understand these things) bh > b is not the problem (which is exactly why I said I'd been too quick the first time). So I take Lambiam to mean that it's not the initial consonant that produces the difficulties in the way of the bhad > beh development. Is that right? Wareh 19:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct. To be more specific, the final d turning into an h may be problematic. Consider further that, but for the coincidence that the initial t of -tar can be mistaken for a final consonant of *beht, the hypothesis of a relationship would most likely not arise. (For example, if the comparative in Persian was formed with the suffix *-kar, the word would have been *behkar.)  --Lambiam^Talk 00:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Speech stereotypes

There exists a stereotype of the Chinese language and other Asian languages that it contains a lot of chings, changs, wangs, and such. A stereotype for Germanic languages seems to be related to the amount of "sch" sounds and being a very "hard" sounding language as opposed to being sing-song-y. So, what I'm wondering is if the English language has any stereotypes associated with it. Being just another stupid American, I don't know what other culture's stereotypes about the English language would be. And furthermore, is there a difference between the view of American English and Brit English? Dismas|^(talk) 06:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Here in Japan, the general stereotype of English is lots of long vowels, lots of curling of the tongue, and lots of emphasis on syllables. If you listen to a Japanese person jokingly imitating a 'foreigner' (all foreigners are American to the Japanese) speaking Japanese, you can really hear how they seem to hear English. In fact, it sounds like John Wayne speaking Japanese while chewing a hamburger. CCLemon-安部さん万歳！ 06:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

From the British viewpoint, American English is all 'R's. --Auximines 09:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

So, we're all pirates to you Brits?  :-) Dismas|^(talk) 01:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The British certainly don't use Rs .... I've had British people complain about my Canadian pronounciation of Butter which has an r, but no ts, which is apparently wrong. ;) WilyD 18:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That's canadian? "bu'err" for butter (I assume that's the sort of thing you mean?) sounds like a typical 'farmer's accent' to my British ears. Oo arr... Skittle 01:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that just another stereotype, a la Kenneth Williams playing "Arthur Fallowfield'" in Beyond Our Ken? His response to any topic of discussion always began with "Oi think the ahnserrr loys in the soil". JackofOz 02:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

To say it's just a stereotype suggests it's not used, and I'm fairly sure there are still farmers out there with that accent. At least there are on The Archers :-) Skittle 23:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say a stereotypical behaviour is never encountered (after all, how did the stereotype arise in the first place?). It's just not encountered as ubiquitously as one might be lead to believe. JackofOz 01:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It might be encountered, but why is the stereotypical Brit portrayed as a man with a suit, bowler hat, and an umbrella? In fact, in the UK I've never seen a man with an umbrella (as it is considered feminine), nor have I ever seen a bowler hat. Do Ozzies really wear cowboy hats with corks dangling from them? Stereotypes are just a way of making fun of a 'quaint' culture, based on very biased views,which are based again on lack of contact with the real people. I agree with JackofOz.CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 09:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh. "Aussies" wearing hats with dangling corks - I really would love to know how that one became such an enduring icon of unreality. However, the "striped suit, bowler hat and umbrella" was a real fashion among London businessmen. Our bowler hat article says they ceased being normal attire in the 1960s, but I think they lingered somewhat longer than that. I can think of many English films and TV shows made in the 1970s and later in which people were shown dressed this way (eg. The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin, which was set in the then-present day, 1976-79). Some of them were comical and probably included an element of parody; but some were serious representations of the way people actually dressed at that time. JackofOz 02:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Antidisestablishmentarianism

Is it still the longest word in English?--Light current 07:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

See Antidisestablishmentarianism and Longest word in English. Dismas|^(talk) 07:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

There is another really long word like this. I can't remember all of it, but it starts with Flo... Try looking in the Oxford English Dictionary.Hidden secret 7 19:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of Floccinaucinihilipilification. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

All our long words are tiny. There is a word in Swedenish, which I think refers to someones job, with more than 100 letters. And the capital city of a place in asia is much longer than this. But in england we have lots of longest words.Hidden secret 7 19:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Before posting questions to the Wikipedia reference desk, please review How to ask a question. You will usually find your answer fastest (and incur the least amount of effort by others) when you use the search box to find the answer you're looking for. In this specific case, the search "Is antidisestablishmentarianism still the longest word in english" refers to both Antidisestablishmentarianism and longest word in English. -- dpotter 21:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The longest word which I actually use is anthropomorphization. (I hope this edit makes it in, my computer is really out to get me today.) StuRat 03:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I can beat that by one letter with nonconfigurationality. --Ptcamn 22:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

January 9

"Arctos" vs. "Ursus"

I know that "Ursus" is Latin for "bear", but is Arctos Latin, or Greek? When I look up "arctic" at dictionary.com, it says that it derives from Greek Arktos. But I'm always reading stories about how King Arthur's name is derived from Arctos for bear, and it would be unusual for a Roman to have a Greek name, no? User:Zoe|(talk) 17:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

King Arthur#Arthur's names has some info on Arcturus. --Kjoonlee 17:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the link. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

A "Rita"

I hope this is the proper section for this question. I have a question about a meaning of the word "Rita" as used in the lyrics of the song "Do the Best You Can" by The Hollies. The lyric is, "If you leave your car and you're not going far, remember what time to be back. If it slips your mind, I'm sure in time you'll find a Rita waiting in a mac." My question is, what does Rita mean in this context? Thanks in advance for any guidance. GassyGuy 23:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Guess. Could this be related to The Beatle's Lovely Rita Meter Maid? I'd check the dates for you, but my battery's almost gone. Skittle 23:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent call, Skittles. "Lovely Rita" came out in 1967; "Do the Best You Can" in 1968. Marco polo 02:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Interesting. Was it common to call traffic wardens Ritas at this time? Like, did it actually catch on as slang? Or was it just a device Clarke, Hicks, and/or Nash brought in for this song as an allusion to the Beatles tune? Thanks for the help so far. GassyGuy 03:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

From Lovely Rita: When asked why he had called her "Rita", McCartney replied: "Well, she looked like a Rita to me". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Endnote templates?

I've looked around the internet quite a bit, and not one gives me a template on endnotes for internet or book sources. They're only examples, which frustrates me. For my internet resources, I know the author, page title, date I accessed the page, URL, and revision/creation date. For my book source, I know the author, title, place of publication, year of publication, and publisher. In what order should all these be put in for my endnotes? Thank you very much for any help. --70.50.103.86

Some of it depends on whether or not you've been told to use a specific format. Here is an example from the Modern Language Association:

Author's last name, author's first name. Book Title. City of publication: Publishing company, year of publication.

All lines other than the first line of the entry get indented. The same holds true for all endnotes. Here is an example for Internet:

Author's last name, author's first name. Website Name. Date of last update (day month year), if available. Name of any organization associated with the site, if applicable. Date of access (day month year). <web address>.

I hope this is helpful. GassyGuy 00:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

January 10

Mark II

I didn't know whether to put this in Language, Science, or IT/Tech, but it's about a name so I'll put it here. I'm trying to name something for a work of fiction, and want figure out if it would appropriate to use "Mark II" (or "Mark 2/MKII/MK2) at the end of it's name. The Mark II article is for a telescope, which makes sense but doesn't give me the information I'd like to know on the subject. I'm assuming "Mark II" is used to name a reconstruction or a advanced second version of a piece of machinery, like 2.0 is used to name a software upgrade. Can anyone give me more information? Thank you. Miriam The Bat 00:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

If we disregard gospels, popes, and the military use (M-1 rifle), your assumed use is entirely correct. In particular, Mark (N+1) is an improved design of Mark N, where the connotation is that this is some cutting edge state of the art high-tech piece of sophisticated equipment custom-built in a lab by a dedicated team of scientists and technicians. It sounds rather mid 20th century. Examples are the Colossus Mark II, the Harvard Mark II, and the RCA Mark II Sound Synthesizer. Of course, the designation has also been used for commercial purposes, as with the Jaguar Mark 2. I think that in most cases "Mark (N+1)" did not start out as a name, any more than kids being named "Junior", but rather as just a distinguishing element.  --Lambiam^Talk 00:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

A man I know has a son named Mark. After the birth, he was asked if this was his first child. "Oh yes", he said. "Definitely Mark 1." --Anonymous, January 10, 2007, 07:36 (UTC).

If its a work of fiction then of course you are free to name stuff as you choose - after all the author is the god of his fictional world. However if you wanted to use real world practice then I'd suggest doing some research into the industry and/or country of origin of this improved product - some places may use 'mark II', so may prefer 'version 2', 'model 2' or using an internal codename; e.g. the first Pentium IV model was codenamed "Willamette" --Neo 11:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Plural form of "you" as used in formal deference

Can anyone shed some light on the usage of the plural second-person pronoun, rather than the singular, in formal/polite speech and writing, as evidenced in the Spanish "ustedes" and the Finnish "te", especially considering how unrelated these languages are? Does the same occur in any other distinct language groups? Is there a name, or accepted explanation for this phenomenon? 84.43.101.148 03:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

After a little further digging, and to my great pleasure, I found T-V distinction! However, please don't let my autoanswerment preclude any interesting comments by refdesk frequenters which might not be included in the article. 84.43.101.148 03:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Your coinage "autoanswerment" has been noted. JackofOz 03:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm all over that. Anchoress 09:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The questioner is still soliciting commentments.  --Lambiam^Talk 11:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I take it you're expecting 10 of them. Clarityfiend 04:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

A minor point, but strictly speaking isn't usted/ustedes actually 3rd person rather than 2nd? (I'm not a Spanish speaker.)I don't know if this affects the questioner's point. Maid Marion 12:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Spanish usted/ustedes is not an example (except in an indirect and roundabout way) of the distinction 84.43.101.148 is asking about. Usted has 3rd person conjugation and historically it comes from a third person form, Vuestra Merced, Your (plural used as formal singular) grace. Use of 3P as 2 P formal is found in many other Romance languages: Portuguese, Italian, Catalan) and also in German. I think that this distinction has not really been well studied in contemporary sociolinguistics. Anyone wanna write a dissertation? mnewmanqc 15:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hindi has this. आप (āp) and तुम (tum) are both grammatically plural and are more formal than the singular तू (tū). My understanding is this extends to other Northern Indo-Aryan Languages. In fact plural agreements are used to denote respect and formality in many language constructs in Hindi. For example the plural form in आप कैसे हैं? (How are you?) is also seen in वे बड़े आदमी हैं (He is an important man, or overly literally, he/they are an important man). 'He is an important man' could also be said as वह बड़ा आदमी है which by using the singular agreements would not denote the additional respect that the plural form would. - Taxman ^Talk 16:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In Europe, at least, I think that this construction is connected to the "royal we" or Pluralis majestatis. Conceptually, I think the "royal we" implied "I and my people" while the respectful "you" may imply "you and your people" ("your people" not necessarily only meaning "the people of your nation", as it might in the case of royal personages, but by extension, "you and your dependents" with regard to people due respect). It would not be surprising for this usage to crop up outside of Europe, even without the tradition of royal use of plural pronouns. It is also plausible that this usage extended from Europe as far as South Asia. Does anyone know of similar constructions in Middle Eastern languages?

Incidentally, the English "you" is also derived from a plural pronoun of respect. In late Middle and early Modern English, "thou" was the 2nd person singular nominative, and "thee" was the 2nd person singular oblique, at least in familiar forms of address. There was a 2nd person plural ("ye" nominative and "you" oblique), which was used formally with singular referents at least by early Modern English times. (This distinction is evident in Shakespeare, for example.) The 2nd person plural oblique form went on during the 17th century to supplant all other 2nd person pronouns in standard English. Marco polo 18:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that Spanish usted is an example of the distinction 84.43.101.148 is asking about since they used it as an example in the question. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In English, I would think that "you...all" is the usual plural form. There are frequently words between you and all, as in "You are all invited to my birthday party". Slang forms include the contraction "y'all", as in "Y'all are invited to my birthday party", and, more rarely, "yous", as in "Yous is all invited to my birthday party". StuRat 05:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's no standard second person plural pronoun (notice, StuRat, that you can replace "you" in your examples of you all with "we" and it is still grammatical, making the "you" simply a plural pronoun homophonous with the singular). Y'all is southern (and I don't let non-southerners use it in my presence) and youse (or youse guys) is more northeastern. Another way to pluralize the second person pronoun (and the method I use in my dialect) is you guys as in "you guys are in the way" and "you guys ought to abandon this whole feminism thing and get me a beer." Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The French "s"

I know this is easily found but I cannot spot it at the moment...Why in French words "bete" "Aout" and such is the "s" missing from the English equivilants "beast" "August" and so on...The reason is at the back of the mind but I can't remember....Any help? doktorb _words^deeds 11:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In those words a trace of the missing s can be seen in the circonflexe: août, bête. In Old French an s followed by a consonant became silent but lengthened the preceding vowel. See Use_of_the_circumflex_in_French#Disappearance_of_the_.22s.22. Skarioffszky 11:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for the reply doktorb _words^deeds 12:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Further definition on the name "Christ"

Looking at the Biblical names it shows the meaning as "anointed". Looking up "anointed" it means: to choose formally; anointed a successor. Can I get a better definition on the meaning of this word, other than meaning Messiah? "Jesus Christ" then is "deliverer chosen formally", or "help chosen formally". Explanation.--Doug ^talk 19:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Literally, anointed means "smeared with oil". "Christos" is a direct translation into Greek of the Hebrew "mashiakh", the root of our word Messiah, which originally meant "covered with holy anointing oil". In biblical times, people were smeared with this oil as a way of consecrating them or making them holy. This ritual was performed on kings at their coronation. Marco polo 20:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

One of the Books of Samuel talks about Samuel anointing David with oil in secret because he had been chosen by God to replace Saul, though King Saul was still alive at the time. User:Zoe|(talk) 16:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

William Labov

Can anyone enlighten me as to the correct pronunciation (in IPA) of his surname? The spoken article pronounces it /lə'bəʊv/, which sounds far more French than I thought a slavic surname should sound. Is it correct? --Estrellador* 21:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The pronunciation used by linguistics lecturers when I was at university in the United States was /lə'bʌv/. It may not be the original pronunciation, but immigrants to the United States (or their children) often adopt a different, less alien-sounding pronunciation for their surnames. Marco polo 03:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Huh. My linguistics professors use /ləˈbɑv/... --Miskwito 04:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You could try e-mailing him and asking him. [5] Nohat 04:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

There's an interview by Matt Gordon with him here [6] that settles it pretty definitively. It's [ləbov]. BTW, the interview is well worth reading. mnewmanqc 15:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not that simple. It's not clear if the interview is using IPA or the weird phonemic notation that Labov himself uses, wherein the symbol /o/ corresponds to the vowel in COT, in which case (IPA) [ləˈbɑv] would be closer. Nohat 00:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

In the context it's clear because the question was "Do you pronounce your last name [ləbov] or [ləbɑv]?" So yeah, the last syllable rhymes with "grove". —Angr 13:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a weird phonemic notation. It's a notation of linguistic variables, the (o) comes from the Middle Enlgish short O. The point is that when you compare different dialects, a purely phonemic notation does not work because the phonemes vary. So in some US English dialects father and bother have the same first vowel. In others, they don't. So it's helpful to use (ah) for one and (o) for the other. He used to keep it clear by putting it in ( ) although now, he's mixing them by using //. I am not sure why. mnewmanqc 01:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

January 11

Heavy Manners?

This term is used frequently by punks and Aryan skinheads to refer to police/government oppression - e.g. "We're living under heavy manners". It's used in loads of songs and is frequently seen on T-shirts and jackets. Does anyone know where the term originated? I asked this question on the Humanities desk a couple of weeks ago but I didn't get any answers aside from a brief discussion about the nature of "Aryan skinheads". I guess I asked in the wrong place (didn't realize that there was a Language desk at the time). So, can anyone help me? Thanks. --84.66.68.9 00:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at Under Heavy Manners and this article from 1976. The word is apparently Jamaican slang for "discipline" and refers specifically to a state of emergency declared by Jamaica's government in 1976. Marco polo 02:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

So, the 'Aryan Skinheads' use a term borrowed from Jamaican culture? That's quite funny. --Kurt Shaped Box 23:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting - I didn't know it had been adopted by punks & skinheads. Of course, in the 80s it was such a normal part of Trinidadian English that I didn't even know it was Jamaican until my (very proper, cultured) uncle explained it as a Jamaican term when he quoted someone using it. Guettarda 03:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Sleep tight

Where did the phrase "sleep tight" come from? It's often followed by "Don't let the bed bugs bite" so is it some strange way of saying that if you keep your sheets tucked in tight around you that the bed bugs won't get in? Dismas|^(talk) 01:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but I think those are just often said together because they are both well-wishes for someone's good, healthy sleep (the bedbug one with a more humorous sense to it, though, and one which really doesn't have much meaning these days), and because they rhyme, not because "sleep tight" is directly related to preventing bed bug bites. I can't help with the other part of your question, unfortunately (and since this answer was just pretty much a guess, I'm not sure how much I helped with this part) --Miskwito 08:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I imagine it's related to the phrase "sit tight". --Auximines 09:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If you search for "sleep tight" on google (with quotes) the first few hits are explanations. Tight here means securely or soundly and guesses about being tied into bed are mostly bogus. One of the links dates "sleep tight" to the 1860s whilst:

Sleep tight

Where the bugs don't bite!

is from Henry Parker Fellows' Boating Trips on New England Rivers (1884). meltBanana 14:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I once read or heard or saw on TV (sorry, can't give a reference, and I have no idea how credible it was, but it made sense to me at the time) that sleep tight referred to when beds were made of rope (a wood frame with rope stretched across). The mattress was then placed on top of the rope. The rope had to be tightened occasionally. Hence, sleep tight referring to tight ropes. Ingrid 17:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

"Tight" in "sleep tight" is, according to[7] the only surviving use of the word to mean "soundly" or "well." These 2 phrases often are said to children following "Nighty night," and are probably just selected to rhyme, with the bedbug part as a gigglingly horrific conclusion, something like the Oranges and Lemons rhyme which ends "Here comes a candle to light you to bed, And here comes a chopper to chop off your head!" Edison 22:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

"mattress"

I came across an answer closer to the reply by "Ingrid" whenever I toured Colonial Williamsburg. It seems that there in the 18th Century they had rooms to rent upstairs in the Taverns to travelers. The conditions of healthy bedding was not anywhere close to our standards of today. In other words, they had bed bugs. What the Tour Guides will tell you is that the reference to "sleep tight" is exactly that reference to pulling the ropes tight so the bed doesn't sag. The reference to the other of course is the bed bugs in the matting they used that was laid on top of the Ropes. Take a trip through Colonial Williamsburg and tour the Taverns to hear this story told by various Tour Guides. --Doug ^talk 00:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! Dismas|^(talk) 05:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Plural of femme fatale

According to the article, the plural is femmes fatales. No doubt this would be correct in French, but is it in English? If not, which is better: femmes fatale or femme fatales? Clarityfiend 06:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

English has no fixed rules per se (nor does any other language, really), but there's not really any fixed convention for this type of case. Google suggests usage is split roughly 50-50 between femmes fatales and femme fatales, but Google does strange things with "s" truncation, so I wouldn't rely on it in this case.

If you're using a fancy French word to express something, you're implicitly laying claim to be the kind of person sophisticated enough to be using fancy French words. So, you might as well go whole hog and use French morphology while you're at it. --Diderot 07:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I see a problem with "femmes fatale". You're treating each word individually as an English word, because in English we pluralise nouns (femmes) but not adjectives (fatale). That's OK as far as it goes, but you're still using the French word order. English would be "fatale femmes". I think you need to be consistent - use English pluralisations and word-order conventions, or French, but not a mixture. Since changing the order of the words is outside the scope of the question, this leaves only the following options:

• "femmes fatales" (French pluralisation and word order)
• "femme fatales" (English pluralisation and word order, treating "femme fatale" as a unit).

I know which one I'd prefer, but it's your call. JackofOz 09:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

LOOOOOOOOSERS. Anchoress 11:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're really snooty, you could say "femmes fatale," aligning with "brothers-in-law" and "attorneys general." zafiroblue05 | Talk 21:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a truly snooty person would go the whole cochon and adopt the French form - femmes fatales. However, doing so would not necessarily make one snooty, merely one who enjoys the richness of the English language in all its diversity. I also suspect the justification you use for "femmes fatale" is flawed; it would never be correct to write "attorneys-generals", or "brothers-in-laws", yet the double plural is a legitimate option for "femmes fatales" (some would say the only really correct option). Thus the two forms are not comparable. JackofOz 01:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Loanwords

Roughly how much of modern bahasa Indonesia is loanwords taken from English, such as the word for computer (komputer) and sexy (seksi)? Crisco 1492 09:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The question may be answerable with respect to a specific corpus or lexicon of Indonesian, but not for "modern Bahasa Indonesia" by itself, because the concept is too vague: when does a word from another language injected into the discourse stop being a foreign word and become a loanword, and which Malay words are not "Indonesian"? Is the Pusat Bahasa the arbiter, or is it actual use? If the latter, how do we sample and how far back do we go? Different choices may result in markedly different results. There is also the distinction between type and token: In The Genius and the Goddess, we have 5 tokens: (1: the, 2: genius, 3: and, 4: the, 5: goddess], but only 4 types: {and, genius, goddess, the}. The word the constitutes 25% of the types, and 40% of the tokens.  --Lambiam^Talk 13:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*Whoosh* OK, a little over my head. However, I do understand the gist of it, and as such, I am sorry for not being more specific. For loanwords from English, I meant words which take the form of words of the exact same meaning in English, with the same pronounciation, although spelled using Indonesian spelling rules, such as ks for x, and k for the hard C. For a couple of examples of English loanwords under the definition I'm using, menage a trois, femme fatal, kamikaze, bushido and a la carte. Words which are pronounced roughly the same as in their native tongue and have that meaning. Sorry if its a little confusing. As for the percentage, I'm thinking it's not too large, but it is noticable, possibly around 5% - 10%. Crisco 1492 20:19, 13 January 2007 (WIB)

Well, one question is the following. Suppose you see, on an Indonesian bulletin board related to computers, that a posting uses Indonesian spelling for English words like mikroprosesor or kontroler. Does spelling them that way automatically turn them into words of the Indonesian language? In any case, you will probably see a lot more English loanwords in texts about information technology than about philosophy. I doubt that the contribution will reach 5% for modern philosophical texts. So the way you collect the texts makes a difference. A further complication that should be considered is the origin of the loanwords. Are, for example, proses and dialog English loanwords, or is it better to consider them Dutch loanwords? Once you have decided how to handle these issues, then if you do a count of a short collection of texts of in total about 2000 words, you should have a reasonable impression of the percentage, at least if it is as high as you think. If it turns out to be substantially less, you should continue counting until you have reached a total of 100 loanwords.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Bia mintatu

A couple of months ago I asked a question about a phrase from an African language I'd come across, "Nzambi ia lufua" - see this thread. I have come across another such phrase, that might come from the same or a related language - "Bia mintatu". Can anyone help with a translation of this phrase? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct English? "Gender Rolls and Sexiest Prejudices"

Is "Gender Rolls and Sexiest Prejudices" correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.231.54.1 (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

It should probably be (depending on what you mean to say) "gender roles and sexist prejudices".--Shantavira 19:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Are "sexist prejudice" the same as "gender prejudice"?

You probably mean "sexism". I think the phrase would sound most natural as "Gender Roles and Sexism". Skittle 23:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 12:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

'some of" for mass nouns?

Good evening. a recent edit of Daniel Dennett by User:Hayford Peirce made me wonder about the proper use of the combination some of. Should it be used with mass terms like childhood. And if it does, does early childhood functions the ssame way in this respect? Would some of his childhood be intutively understood be native english speakers as a continuous section of the childhood when contrusted with part of his chilhood? Is a needed when using part in that way? I will be glad to get a theoretical answer as well as a suggested application. thanks trespassers william 21:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't back it up with any rules, but my own feeling, coming from using and reflecting about words for many years, is that "spent some of his childhood" is more vague than "part of his childhood", in the sense it suggests bits and pieces for various parts of time, perhaps during vacations. "Part of his childhood" seems more fixed to me, more concrete, implying that an *important* time period of his life was involved. I don't think I would say "spent a part of etc." Simply because "a" seems superfluous to me. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I could argue convincingly for the opposite of everything I've just written.... Hayford Peirce 22:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

is "twa" a form of "two" ?

I was listening to Old Blind Dogs traditional Celtic music, and there's a line "he brought his twa best horses." Does anyone know if 'twa' is an older form of 'two?' Thanks. (user: seacoast bloom) Jan. 11 23:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more of a dialect word than an older form, but hopefully someone who's read more 'old stuff' than me will comment. Skittle 23:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It's dialect, specifically north English - I think it's still used to some extent in Northumberland. Another traditional/folk song that uses it is Steeleye Span's "Twa corbies" (corbie being a Northumbrian term for a crow, IIRC). Grutness...wha? 00:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Common enough in Scots, as well. Shimgray | talk | 01:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

How to get the kanji/hiragana/katakana equivalents of Romanized character names

I've looked through WP:MOS-JA and the WikiProject Japan page among others, in attempt to find out how to render Romanized Japanese names into their kanji/hiragana/katakana equivalents, e.g. if you take a look at the article Slam Dunk (manga), you will notice that the characters' names have kanji equivalents. If the answer is out there on Wikipedia it has eluded me so far, so if anyone is aware of any pages or processes that I would look at or go through, I'd like to hear about it, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BrokenSphere (talk • contribs) 23:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

If you want to read Japanese text in your browser, go to the homepage of the company behind your browser, and see if you could download a program for "Japanese text support". 惑乱 分からん 00:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I can read the Japanese text fine, e.g. right now I see your name showing up as 惑乱 分からん; what I mean is, say I just have a name like "Sakuragi Hanamichi" but I don't know what the Japanese text equivalent for it is; is there a converter or something that would allow me to input the text "Sakuragi Hanamichi" and return a Japanese text equivalent? Thanks. --BrokenSphere 00:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, it could probably work for katakana and hiragana, at least if you'd download some software, but kanji is a bit more complex, especially for names, which sometimes contain older or alternative characters. Japanese word processing software mostly converts kana to kanji correctly, based on the most comoon logical choices, as far as I have understood, but names don't always work logically. 惑乱 分からん 00:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I wonder how the folks who are coming up with the Japanese text equivalents are doing so, say if they don't have access to a source (e.g. an anime sourcebook or something) that says how to render the names, much less produce the Japanese text for entry into Wikipedia. --BrokenSphere 01:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

They might have access to sources, or being able to read Japanese webpages. They could copy and paste the kanji verbatim, otherwise it isn't impossible to produce Kanji on non-Japanese computers with the right software. 惑乱 分からん 01:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

In general there is no unique way to retrieve the katakana or hiragana from a Romanized transliteration, since both じ and ぢ are transliterated as ji, and ず and づ as zu. For kanji it can be a lot worse; see at Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 August 10#Possession in Japanese for some of the many existing kanji versions that, when Romanized, all (can) become Tetsuo. (By the way, Romanization of names given in kanji is not straightforward either.) You can use Jim Breen's WWWJDIC Server to find possible kanji for a Romanized word, and use those in Google to see if you get a hit on the right person. For example, hana returns five possibilities, among which 花 (flower), and michi gives 24 matches among which 芳 (perfume). But there are 119 other combinations to consider.  --Lambiam^Talk 03:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Note however that じ is much more common than ぢ, and ず much more common than づ. I think in certain transcription schemes, these kana have different romanizations. 惑乱 分からん 12:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

See Input method editor Nohat 23:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, actually we cannot write a Japanese sentence without the IME. Perhaps [8] and [9] would be helpful, although I recommend more accurate ATOK, which is said to work also on English verson of Windows XP ([10]); but note it's not free. --marsian 09:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Whilst on the subject of Jamaican slang and Aryan Skinheads...

Several reggae songs in my collection refer negatively to 'baldheads' (e.g. in the Bob Marley song "Crazy Baldheads", there's the line "We gonna chase those crazy baldheads out of town"). Is 'baldhead' Jamaican slang for Aryan Skinhead? --Kurt Shaped Box 23:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere that "baldhead" referred to the rich "bald" tycoons that rule the earth behind closed curtains, think it's part of the "Babylon" belief in Rastafari. 惑乱 分からん 00:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary has an entry here. --MZMcBride 03:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Baldhead is someone who cuts and brushes their hair, ie, not a Rasta. Bald because they have no "ras". Guettarda 03:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

January 12

Hyphenation and capitalization

What are the grammar rules relating to words that follow hyphens? Moreover, would "Post-read List" be more accurate than "Post-Read List"? --MZMcBride 03:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

When you're doing the sort of capitalization where every word or every important word is capitalized, as is common for titles and proper names, the usual convention today is to capitalize exactly as if the hyphens were spaces. Thus we have Fail-Safe (novel) and Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario. If a hyphenated word is capitalized only because it's at the start of a sentence, only the first letter is capitalized: "First-time users should read the manual." So if "Post-Read List" is a proper name, then it has three capital letters. Whether it should be considered a proper name, I can't say, because I don't know what you mean by it.

In the past it was more common to see the convention that the letter after a hyphen was never capitalized unless the word was part of a proper name in its own right. If that novel had been published a few decades earlier, it might have been titled "Fail-safe", although something like Winston-Salem, North Carolina would still have a capital S. --Anonymous, January 12, 2007, 05:52 (UTC).

Cotton Picking

Why is the phrase "cotton-picking" used to mean "damned" or "rotten" in the sense of mild profanities? Wiktionary states that it is "Used as a general form of disapproval", and has an example statement from Richard Nixon, yet I can't seem to find any kind of etymology for it anywhere. Laïka 11:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Racist origin? A reasonable guess is that it originally referred to slaves... 惑乱 分からん 12:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

There were also poor white tenant farmers and sharecroppers who picked cotton. Also, I am most familiar with the expression "cotton-picking hands". As in "Keep your cotton-picking hands away from me!" People who picked cotton had dirty, often cut and callused hands. I think that the expression is about lowliness and filth rather than about race. It does not have a racial implication to my American ears. Marco polo 20:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm, although arguably class, though... 惑乱 分からん 23:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• Oooh! According to Etymology Online, the first cite is a Bugs Bunny cartoon! Cotton-picking was first recorded in a Bugs Bunny cartoon, but the noun meaning "contemptible person" dates to around 1919, probably with racist overtones that have faded over the years. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say it means "miserable or unpleasant", as picking cotton was very hard on the hands, which were cut up by the cotton plant. Also note that the G is rarely pronounced in this phrase, so I would write it "cotton-pickin' ", accordingly. StuRat 05:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

LLC & Closed Corporation

Hallo,

I´m already looking quite a long time for the US-American Translation of the German type of company "GmbH" (capital company with limited liability). In dictionaries you find several translations. Some say "Closed Corporation" and others say "LLC" (Limited Liability Company). I wonder if somebody could tell me the difference between both ones and which is the correct one i need.

Thanks

77.179.14.254 13:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The legal regulations that define corporations vary from nation to nation and, within the United States, from state to state. There is no exact equivalent of the German GmbH in the United States. I think that the best translation for this term would be "corporation". The distinction that exists between AGs and GmbHs in Germany does not exist as such in the United States. There are LLCs, but they differ from other corporations and from GmbHs in a number of ways. They are often considered partnerships rather than corporations for tax purposes, for example, which is not a feature of GmbHs. On the other hand, both GmbHs and virtually every type of corporation in the United States share the feature of limited liability. Although the LLC contains "limited liability" as part of its name, it shares this feature with other types of corporations. The LLC is considered a somewhat unusual corporate form in the United States, whereas the GmbH is the leading corporate form in Germany. I do not think that I have heard of "closed corporations", do not know what this term means, and doubt that most Americans will understand it. Therefore, I would translate GmbH as "corporation". You could explain that the legal framework for GmbHs differs in some details from the frameworks for corporations in the various U.S. states. Marco polo 16:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your good and detailed comment Marco Polo. OK, but what term can I use for the German "Aktiengesellschaft(AG)" (the only company in Germany that has shares which are sold to the public to raise capital) . I thought this is the official term for Corporation. So what can i say to make translated a difference between "GmbH" and "AG" ? Thanks

Maybe the best thing would be to use the German term, since these types of business organization are unique to Germany (and other German-speaking countries), but then to add parenthetically in English the following: for GmbH "a privately held corporation similar to an LLC" and for AG "a publicly traded corporation". Incidentally, I realized that what you are calling a "closed" corporation is usually called a "privately held" or "private" corporation in the United States. However, if you need a simple, easy-to-understand English word, the word "corporation" works for both the GmbH and the AG. They are both types of corporation from a U.S. point of view. A U.S. corporation need not issue publicly traded stock, as the AG does. Marco polo 20:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Gender neutral (group) descriptor for niece/nephew/aunt/uncle

I've done a quick search on the topic but I'm not sure how to phrase the question for the search engine to find the answer if there is one on Wiki. My question is this:

Is there a group (gender neutral) descriptor term for niece/nephew or aunt/uncle, as there is for brother/sister (sibling), son/daughter (child), or (grand)mother/father {[grand]parent}? (and what is the proper term for these other terms? i.e. they are not per se pronouns).Jazzhed 18:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really. A few mid-20th-century anthropologists made up the term "nibling", but it doesn't seem to have caught on (despite http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3667000/3667379.stm ). AnonMoos 21:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're willing to be a little creative and steal some teminology from other relationships, then a nephew/niece could be a 'sibling, once removed', taking the 'one removed' term from that used for Cousins, and considering that 'great' or 'grand' seems to mean 'add one generation', and an uncle/aunt would be a 'great/grand-sibling'. --Neo 21:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure you want to remove this sibling? A sibling, once removed, cannot be retrieved. [OK] [CANCEL]  --Lambiam^Talk 01:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

To lose one sibling might be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness (with apologies to Oscar Wilde.  :) JackofOz 00:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You can always steal the gender neutral "cousin" and call your niece or nephew "my children's cousin". Of course, if you don't yet have kids you will either need to use theoretical children or get busy. StuRat 05:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're happy with "children's cousin", "brother/sister's child" would be an obvious improvement, since it obviates the need for any extra effort on your part, should you lack podlings of your own. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"Sibling's child" for niece/nephew. "Parent's sibling" for aunt/uncle. --Nelson Ricardo 17:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"Cuz" has long been used for distant relatives. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't cousin a male cousin, and cousine a female cousine? My French teachers said it was, even in English. Same with fiance(e). Have I been lied to? 121.72.14.221 03:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope, not in English. English has at various periods struggled (usually moderately unsuccessfully) to preserve unpronounced gender contrasts in such orginally French words as Blond(e), Confidant(e), and Fiancé(e), but words which have been fully integrated into English (such as "cousin") do not mark gender contrasts in this way. AnonMoos 07:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Teaching english as 2nd language

I would like to know, if there is an article that shows how to teach the difference between the verbs, to do and to make.

Thank´s in advance for the replay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.244.209.81 (talk) 18:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Not on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. Check Wiktionary's definitions for the words and you'll probably find a good distinction. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at this - Nunh-huh 21:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

From your IP address, it appears you're in Mexico. So I'd simply explain it using Spanish words -- while both "to do" and "to make" mean hacer, only "to make" means hacer in the sense of crear ("to create").

"to do" = hacer ≠ crear

"to make" = hacer = crear

You can crear un pastel, but you can't crear una voltereta lateral (cartwheel). So you make a cake but do a cartwheel. -- Mwalcoff 06:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

January 13

Dork?

Why does everyone think that a dork is a whale's phallus? It most certainly is not! bibliomaniac15 01:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• Um, everyone doesn't? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Perhaps because that's what the Urban dictionary entry tells them it is. Dismas|^(talk) 10:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but whales' phalli are mighty handy things, at least according to Herman Melville. A quick googling to remind me of the chapter number turns up Chapter 95: The Cassock, of which he spends the entirety detailing how to convert a sperm whale's "tool" into a rather handy apron. Kind of vindicates the perennial tittering of schoolboys at the title of the book, hmm? :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)     (Jeez, "vindicates the perennial tittering"? Lack of sleep seems to throw my vocabulary towards the sesquipedalian end of the spectrum.) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmph. Me, I learned that the definition of "dork" is "someone who farts in the bathtub and bites and the bubbles". But that doesn't seem encyclopedic. (Nor its companion definition of a "wurp" as "someone who sniffs bicycle seats.") (Hm. I learned these in jr high. Perhaps they were not entirely serious.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "dork" originally meant "penis." No mention of whales, though. -- Mwalcoff 23:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, can I ask you which version you used? I couldn't find it in my 1971 compact editions or my 1987 supplement. --Kjoonlee 08:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It's in OED2 and the online version, first date 1964. Somepeople maintain electronic reference works may replace paper sources someday. meltBanana 16:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Grammar question

Hi there,

I've recently started copy-editing some articles and am unsure of the following. I would appreciate any input you could provide.

Regarding the "fairy tale Snow White" part of the following sentences, which would you say is preferable (if any)?

"Snow White: Fairest of Them All" is a made-for-television film based on the popular fairy tale "Snow White."

"Snow White: Fairest of Them All" is a made-for-television film based on the popular fairy tale, "Snow White."

"Snow White: Fairest of Them All" is a made-for-television film based on the popular fairy tale called "Snow White."

Thanks! --Xhantar (Talk) 09:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The first. The comma in the second is unlicensed by the phrase structure of the sentence and the third is awkward and unconcise. --Diderot 09:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. --Xhantar (Talk) 09:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Diderot. Marco polo 20:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I also agree, but also the full stop should be after the closing quote:

"Snow White: Fairest of Them All" is a made-for-television film based on the popular fairy tale "Snow White".

--Auximines 21:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless you're American, in which case the period goes inside the quotation marks. -- Mwalcoff 23:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The best is to use this:

Snow White: Fairest of Them All is a made-for-television film based on the popular fairy tale Snow White.

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles).  --Lambiam^Talk 21:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Payment order given to bank

What "for account of" at the end of a payment order made to a bank means? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.105.64.246 (talk) 13:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

I assume it means precisely what it says. The money order is for the (bank) account of the person named.--Shantavira 13:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not necessarily clear. --Nelson Ricardo 17:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Does it say something like "Charges will be for account of the remitting bank"? In that case it means "paid by": the charges will be paid by the remitting bank. If that does not fit, can you give the context how this is used?  --Lambiam^Talk 22:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Publicly Held Corporation

Question moved to the Miscellaneous reference desk.  --Lambiam^Talk 10:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

January 14

Arm/flag signaling

where can i find information on arm/flag signaling?

Do you mean Semaphore#Flag_semaphore_system? AnonMoos 02:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

American slang

I would like to understand what exactly mean the expression "first crack at this guy" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.90.39.185 (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

"Crack" in this context means "attempt" or "chance." -- Mwalcoff 00:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There's an idiom of "taking a crack at something", which I don't find an immediate explanation of. I took at a crack at googling it- some dictionary somewhere probably explains where this idiom came from. The dictionary I found has this to say about the various meanings of "crack". Friday (talk) 01:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think in films, it generally means first shot at beating someone up. But, like Mwalcoff said, it just means first chance at this guy. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Note that in American colloquial use, the word "guy" can mean anything. Where a European speaker, when lecturing, would say: "How do we prove this theorem? Each vertex in this graph here ...", an American speaker might say something like: "How do we prove this guy? Each guy in this guy here ...".  --Lambiam^Talk 09:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Need help identifying parts of speech

I am trying to better learn the 8 parts of speech. Can somebody tell me what part of speech the capitalized words are in these 3 sentences? Thanks.

Jami needs HELP with the shop project.

Noun

The baby seems unusually QUIET today.

Adjective

Please wait OUTSIDE for me.

Adverb

Marco polo 01:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside is also a preposition. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The word outside in English can function as a noun, adjective, preposition or adverb, depending on how it is used. In the given sentence, it is definitely used as an adverb. Likewise, help can be a verb, but in the given sentence it is used as a noun. If we decide to HELP Jami with the shop project, it functions as a verb.  --Lambiam^Talk 09:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Those 3 were the only ones I was not sure about. Can you tell me if the rest of my answers are corrrect? They are in brackets after the sentence. Thanks again! Noah When will YOU leave for the airport? (pronoun) You look TIRED today. (adverb) SEND me the report tomorrow. (verb) Did you get good grades ON your report card? (preposition) We spent the WEEKEND in New York. (noun) The POLICE will patrol during the fair. (noun) EITHER Kerry OR Stan will give the speech at the assembly. (conjunction) Classes were dimissed EARLY because of the snowy weather. (adverb) Matt QUICKLY stapled his moework packet. (adverb) I ordered a hoagi WITHOUT onions. (preposition) OH, I wish I'd not done that! (interjection) Kelly bought a bag OF Doritos at the consession stand. (preposition) I wanted a good grade on this test, SO I studied for two hours. (conjunction) We planned the family REUNION for Saturday. (noun) Brian wore his FOOTBALL jersey to the game. (adjective) ARE you goig to the dance on Friday? (verb) Don't FORGET to buy your ticket. (verb) What book are you reading NOW? (adverb) John invited HIS grandparents to the band concert. (pronoun) I am VERY sorry to hear the news. (adverb) The award-winning poem was written BY Drew. (preposition) WOW! Wasn't that an easy test? (interjection)

Well done; looks good. Wolfgangus 16:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

They look correct except that "football jersey" one. I'd consider "football jersey" as a whole to be a compound noun; "football" in this case is one of the two nouns. In just the same way, "science fiction" is a noun, yet both "science" and "fiction" are nouns. Laïka 16:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Jai Mata Di?

Greetings!

I was wondering what the word "di" stands for in the popular Hindu exclamation "Jai Mata Di". I understand "Jai" stands for "victory", "mata" means "Mother" Devi, but does the "Di" have any extra sigificance? "Victory to the Goddess" seems to be the rough translation, but I'm curious about the meaning of each word, knowing how religious phrases can have multiple explanations within Hinduism. Would you recommend me crossposting the question to the religions section as well?

Blessings, --Snowgrouse 09:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Challenge for everyone - Use the word ontologically

...without sounding like a bloated windbag. Extra points if you manage to use ontologically speaking without sound in sufferable.

Thanks for playing.

66.91.225.188 12:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

After looking at my X-Rays, the Oncologist said to me, ontologically speaking, you're f--ked so I left without paying the bill, and as he called after me I feigned an otological deficiency. Really, what's he gonna do? Wolfgangus 13:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I decided to move on to logically speaking, in an attempt to get my point across. Well you did say in sufferable. meltBanana 16:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Rest room

In Wikipedia, rest room redirects to toliet. In American English as I've learned it, rest room is the same as bathroom. But I'm watching Air Crash Investigations, and the engineer and investigator are shown walking into a room clearly labeled "Engineers Rest Room" to discuss. Is rest room not used for washroom in England, or is it just flexible enough to be used for multiple meanings?

(I'm considering changing the redirect to go to Washroom, as it doesn't seem to match toliet, but it seems the same concept is spread over several pages, with the help of various words being used in different dialects confusing the issue.)--Prosfilaes 12:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

No, we do not use the term "rest room" in that sense in the UK. In this area we tend to say what we mean. The toilet is found in the room called the toilet, or WC, or if a public toilet then we might use the somewhat old-fashioned term "public conveniences". A bathroom contains a bath, not necessarily a toilet. A rest room is where you might go to take a rest. -- Arwel (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)