Talk:Cossack Hetmanate

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Automatic Translation?

What on earth do the following two paragraphs mean:

After many successful military campaigns against the Poles,  Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kiev 
on Christmas 1648 where he was hailed liberator of the people from Polish captivity. 
In February 1649, during negotiations in Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation, Khmelnytsky had made it clear to the Poles 
that he was the sole autocrat of Rus', positioning himself as the whole leader of all Ukraine.

There the state-building process began where Khmelnytsky's statesmanship was demonstrated in all areas of state-building: 
in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen, he invested the Zaporozhian Host 
under the leadership of its hetman with supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and he unified all the spheres of 
Ukrainian society under his authority. This would involve building a government system and a developed military and civilian
administrators out of Cossack officers and Ukrainian nobles, as well as the establishment of an elite within the Cossack 
Hetman state.

There - where? Referring to what? What is Hetman that repeatedly occurs here. Is that his first name or maybe his nationality? Somehow, "liberator of the people from Polish captivity", doesn't sound good, but my English is not good enough to come up with a better sentence. "... the sole autocrat of Rus'"? "positioning himself as the whole leader"?

Granted, on second read, I do understand that Hetman is a nationality, but make that clear somewhere. (All wiki references to Hetman return to this article (The Cossack Hetmanate). Actually I'm not sure. Is it?

How about something like: ..."clearly stated to the Polish delegation, which he met on Christmas 1648, that he saw himself as the sole ruler of the Ukrainian state. He then proceeded to establish his rule, by setting about changes in all fields of government: In the military, in administration, finance, economy and culture. He cleverly supported Hetman(...points to nationality of Hetmans) rule of the Zaporozhian Host, a region in central Ukrain. This bought his rule broad acceptance throughout all the diverse regions and nationalities in the Ukrain. He established a new government system, which included the creation of a new upper class of administrators and military commanders, from his Cossack army, and from the historic local Ukranian nobility. -- Thanks! פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy! OK, I read a bit more, and now understand what a Hetman is. IMHO there should be a wikilink to at least the first and probably to all three references in the article. The article is still unreadable, and seems to be an automatic translation. Anyway, a great reference (for whoever decides to redo these pages) is this book: Ukrain A History by Orest Sutelny. It seems written well. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Guess what! In Bohdan Khmelnitsky it says:

At Christmas 1648, Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kyiv, where he was hailed as "the Moses, savior, redeemer, 
and liberator of the people from Polish captivity ... the illustrious ruler of Rus." In February 1649, during negotiations in
Pereiaslav with a Polish delegation headed by senator Adam Kysil, Khmelnytsky declared that he was 
  "the sole autocrat of Rus" and that he had "enough power in Ukraine, Podilia, and Volhynia ... 
in his land and principality stretching as far as Lviv, Chełm, and Halych."[9] It became clear to the Polish envoys that
Khmelnytsky had positioned himself not just as a leader of the Zaporozhian Cossacks, but of Ukraine, and stated his claims 
to the heritage of the Rus. A Vilnius panegyric in Khmelnytsky's honor (1650–1651) explained it this way: 
  "While in Poland it is King Jan II Casimir Vasa, in Rus it is Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky."[10]

After the period of initial military successes the state-building process began. His leadership was demonstrated in all areas 
of state-building: in the military, administration, finance, economics, and culture. With political acumen he made the Zaporozhian
Host under the leadership of its hetman the supreme power in the new Ukrainian state, and unified all the spheres of Ukrainian 
society under his authority. Khmelnytsky built a new government system and developed military and civilian administration.

This whole subpage is translated there into good and normal English!

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 03:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

something is broken

"Herb Viyska Zaporozkogo (Alex K).svg →"--FifthCylon (talk) 07:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

successor state arrow is broken

Could someone please fix that?--FifthCylon (talk) 15:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Ukrainian Cossack state Zaporizhian Host 1649 1653.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Antihistoric statements

Excuse me, but as a history student I can not accept this article because of many antihistoric statements about "State creation" and "State existing". It's only modern modern ukrainian vission, links are from pro-ukrainian internet pages. Look discussion in Russian Talk about this article. It must be fully reviewed and fixed according professional historians statements, who analyzed the history of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Chmelnicki Uprising. Now thsi artical seems as falsification of history. --86.100.205.18 (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Rename article suggestion

Per Magocsi (citation added to intro), "The name Hetmanate, especially in Russian sources, referred to Cossack regiments in Left-bank Ukraine that were under of the authority of Moscow's hetman, from 1667 onward. This excludes both Zaporizha and Sloboda Ukraine" (paraphrasing). In his work, he refers to the state as the Cossack state, since it covers all attempted unified cossack statehood (and also that the cossack state only existed in the Hetmanate from 1711 onward). He says the official names were Zaporizhian Host and Army of Zaporizha.

Since this article almost entirely relies on Magocsi's work, we should use the name he suggests. As it stands, 'Hetmanate' is like calling the UK just Scotland.--Львівське (говорити) 08:53, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. What an ignorant claim. The entire state, not only a small part of it, is referred to as "Hetamante" (Гетьманщина) by multiple historians other than your source. For example, Mytsyk, Bazhan, and Vlasov refer to it as "Hetmanshchyna (Гетьманщина) here: [1]. Lev Okinshevych, Arkadii Zhukovsky from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine call the country "Hetman State": [2]. Oleksandr Saltovskiy refer to it as "Ukrainian state-Hetmanate" (Українська держава-Гетьманщина), "Hetman state" (гетьманська держава), and simply Hetmanate (Гетьманщина). He also says that the Hetmanate covered both sides of the Dnipro from Khmelnytsky until Doroshenko. [3] Valeriy Smoliy call the country "Ukrainian Cossack State", "Zaporizhyan Host", and "Hetmanate" (pg 14) here: [4]. I can still easily find more sources. --BoguSlav 07:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Little Russia etc.

The Hetmanate is not (was not) called "Little Russia". Little Russia and the Hetmanate are two separate historical concepts. The Hetman of the Ukrainian Cossacks didn't call himself the "Hetman of Little Russia". If you think they are the same thing, perhaps you should propose a merge between both articles, but you can't simply equate the Hetmanate to Little Russia because of your political opinions. These edits be only explained as Russification because they do not enhance the content of the article.--BoguSlav 00:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. This concept is ludicrous. This is some sort of bizarre attempt to conflate the history of the Hetmanate with the politics of the Russian Empire after the razing of Sich, hence turning the Hetmanate into some sort of offshoot of Little Russia. Information for the content of the article is being turned into a strange amalgam of the later Russian Empire and the history of the Hetmanate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It is typical ignorance in the history. The term Little Russia was used by Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky. This term was an official name of Hetmanate in briefs of Bohdan Hmelnytsky. That's why existed Little Russia Prikase and then Collegium of Little Russia. If you don't know about it, how could you speak about the History of Hetmanate at all? Ушкуйник (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course the term "Little Russia" was known and possibly used by Ukrainians from the Hetmanate. That doesn't make the Hetmanate and "Little Russia" to be the same thing! That's why we have two separate articles here on wikipedia. But above all, how about a WP:SOURCE for all your claims?--BoguSlav 04:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear all (BoguSlav, and Iryna Harpy), firstly, there is a difference between Hetmanate, Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia. Hetmanate - is a historiographical term, you will not find this term in historical documents from 17. till 18. Century. The term was created to make clear the sense of Hetman's power. Zaporizhian Host and Little Russia are on the opposide side historical names of Hetmanate. Sure there is a difference between Hetmanate and Little Russia, because the term Little Russia means NOT ONLY Hetmanate, but also church Toponym (like Great Russia too) etc. But it means not, that you may ignore this name of Hetmanate just because there is a multiple-meaning of Little Russia, or even if you don't like this name of the territory of Dnieper-banks. It was an official name of Hetmanate in Tsardom of Russia and Russian Empire. The same history is with Zaporizhian Host - it means Hetmanate, but not only Hetmanate, because Zaporizhian Host not always submitted to Hetman.

Secondly, there is a historical difference between right-bank Hetmanate and left-bank Hetmanate. So it is just not correct to speak about Vassal status of Hetmanate only in context of Tsardom of Russia. After Treaty of Andrusovo right-bank Hetmanate existed as Vassal of Poland.

Thirdly, Ruthenian and Ukrainian language is not the same thing, another way we should come to conclusion, that Belarusian and Ukrainian is the same language too, but it is not true. They both - Belarusian and Ukrainian - have roots in Ruthenian language. So it is not correct to speak about official role of Ukrainian language in Hetmanate, it was Ruthenian language.

Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 14:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

So - no reliable sources for all these claims?Faustian (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you just need to read about it the sources, which you have deleted, especially Paul Robert Magocsi and Яковенко Н. Нарис історії України з найдавніших часів до кінця ХVІІІ ст, if you can read in Ukrainian. I didn't know, that it is so new information, that Belarusian and Ukrainian languages have roots in Ruthenian. Maybe there is also some new information, that right-bank Hetmanate was under Poland and that Hetman post was abolished in Poland in 1686? Is it not clear, that Little Russian prikaz could exist only in case of using the term Little Russia as Synonym for Hetmanate? Also, it looks like you just don't have any arguments to protect your own position. Ушкуйник (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Still no reliable sources to back up changes to consensus version.Faustian (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Every time I go through your sources and your arguments for changing content, I keep coming back to the same conclusion, Ушкуйник: that you've been very busy on various articles using your own interpretation (known as original research) and cherry picking information to fit your own theories (known as WP:POV). Considering your specific interests, as is evidenced by your special contributions, I can only understand your presence on English Wikipedia to be as an SPA focussing on historical subject matter to contrive an All-Russian nation rendering of Eastern Slavic history. In fact, I checked it's German Wikipedia counterpart – "Dreieiniges russisches Volk" – out of interest, only to discover that you've been dabbling with that article only to have your additional content rejected (no one there is impressed with your 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, either). What that adds up to is WP:NOTHERE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Iryna Harpy, actually, my remark in German Wikipedia was about Ivan Vyshenskyi and Archimandrite Zacharius Kopystensky, not about 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments, after that I have found this information in text. We can speak about All-Russian nation, but it doesn't have any matter in context of our discussion. You just try to ignore all arguments, to find some another subject of discussion. I would be appreciate, if you will speak in this discussion about the History of Hetmanate. Have you anything to say about it? Ушкуйник (talk) 14:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

And it is not "my" 'left bank'/'right bank' arguments. See: Left-bank Ukraine and Right-bank Ukraine. Ушкуйник (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Ушкуйник, your disruptive edits MUST STOP! Let's take a look at the version of the article you've been constantly reverting to. First of all, the title of the article (Cossack Hetmanate) should be bolded per WP:BOLDTITLE. "Hetmanate" is not the title of the article. Secondly, the note about the Russian definition of Hetmanate may either go in the "Etymology" Section or into the article called Hetmanate. This article is about the Cossack Hetmanate, the opening sentence should discuss the topic of the article, not go into tangents, per WP:LEDE.

Now for your Little Russia comparisons. They have NO BASIS. This source that you constantly use [5], calls it the Little Russian Hetmanate, NOT Little Russia. Same thing goes for section about the Name. There is NOT ONE mention of "Little Russia" in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine source. Another source from EoU, which you constantly remove [6] says "Muscovite sources it was called the Little-Russian state (Malorossiiskoe gosudarstvo). Again, NOT "Little Russia", but Little-Russian State.

Your edits are not backed up by ANY SOURCES. Even the sources that you constantly DO use, DO NOT support your claims. You are engaging in WP:ACTIVISM or WP:SPA, as Iryna has said. I think the next step would be some sort of request for WP:Probation or blocking. --BoguSlav 17:19, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear BoguSlav, it is not constructive to threaten with blocking. Your difference between Little Russian Hetmanate and using of the term Little Russia in sense of Hetmanate is a typical hair-splitting. I think you should see for example Gregory Teplov's «О непорядках, которые происходят от злоупотребления прав и обыкновений, грамотами подтвержденных Малороссии». Teplov was a chanceller of Hetmanate, in this work he speaks about Hetmanate, but he writes about it as about Malorossia, or Little Russia. So there is an example of using the term Little Russia in sense of Hetmanate in historical document of Hetmanate. See also this Encyclopedia about it 1, there is an information about Hetmanate in sense of Little Russia after the Treaty of Andrusovo. Do you need more sources to prove, that Little Russia and Hetmanate can be used as historical synonyms? Well, see that: 1, 2, 3. So stop your threatening and try to understand, that the term Little Russia was an official name of Hetmanate. It is a historical name. Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

This is NOT hair-splitting. What you are doing, is over-generalizing. Little Russia = "the territory of modern-day Ukraine". The Little Russian State = "the COUNTRY that existed on that territory". This is similar to Arabia. Arabia = "the territory of the Arabian peninsula". Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Qatar = "the COUNTRIES located on that territory". All of your sources make a distinction between Little Russia (the territory) and Malorosiiske gosudarstvo (the country called "Little Russian State"). They SUPPORT what I we have all (expect you) been saying. For example, source 2 says "During that time, the former hetmanate, now called Little Russia...", indicating that Little Russia is what came AFTER the Hetmanate. Little Russia was the name of the territory of the Hetmanate, after the Hetmanate was abolished. This is called cherry-picking the sources to fit your own narrative. As for this link 1, it discusses Hetmanate, not Cossack Hetmanate. Go add that information to the Hetmanate article. But above all, STOP EDIT WARRING. Your sources DO NOT back up your narrative. --BoguSlav 20:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. You have NOT RESPONDED to anything I brought up in my above comment. Your edits do not fit WP:MOS and they are not supported by the sources. You have not even attempted to back up the sources, instead bringing up a bunch of new sources (which do not support you, again). This shows, even more, that even you do not attempt to argue those sources because you know they don't hold any water for your narrative. STOP or you will be blocked.--BoguSlav 20:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear BoguSlav, firstly, shaw me, please, any sources, where Little Russia is called as a state in sense of Hetmanate. I can not find such sources and that's why I can not agree with you: you try to say, that it was some kind of Little Russian state, but there is no any information about it in any sources. Secondly, I seriously don't understand, how you distinguish Hetmanate and Cossack Hetmanate. Do you mean the difference between Cossack Hetmanate and Ukrainian State of Skoropadskyj? If so, than I don't understand, what is wrong with my sources. You write above: "As for this link 1, it discusses Hetmanate, not Cossack Hetmanate." - sorry, but it discuss right Cossack Hetmanate, or what do you mean under Cossack Hetmanate than? Best wishes, Ушкуйник (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"firstly, shaw me, please, any sources, where Little Russia is called as state". This shows that have not taken the time to read ANY of the sources I been constantly referring to above. Now I know why my sources keep falling on deaf ears. I have actually taken the time to sift through the links you have been posting (which go against what you say btw). All of the links have made a distinction between "Little Russia", the territory, and the "Little Russian State", the country. As for Hetmanate, your source shows that Russians referred to the Hetmanate as "Left-bank Ukraine". This article is not the place for irrelevant information, regarding Left-bank Ukraine. You can take it to either 1) Hetmanate or 2) Left-bank Ukraine. Finally, you have broken the 3RR again.--BoguSlav 21:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

"Government of Ukraine" and lands of "Belarus"

Part of this article uses anachronisms, i.e. "government of Ukraine" and "Belarus." The term "government of Ukraine" evokes the modern state of Ukraine, which did not yet exist. Perhaps "government of the Hetmanate" would be better? And the reference to "lands of Belarus" also implies Belarus was a distinct political entity which was not the case, and would not be for centuries. I do not know how to correct this because I am not familiar with the original source material, if there is any. We also need a reference to what "repressions" were carried out and how the "government of Ukraine" notified the population about this. Giordano Bruno (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, you seem to be confusing what the term 'anachronism' means. What is being done is the reverse: modern conventions for areas and peoples are replacing anachronistic terminology (Ruthenians, Little Russians, White Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusins, etc.) for areas which would be meaningless to most Anglophone readers. This usage of terminology is completely in keeping with contemporary scholarly Slavic studies conventions in the Anglophone world... in fact, this usage dates back many, many decades due to the discrepancy in nomenclature for the regions in question dependent on whether the information was derived from the Grand Duchy of Moscow, the Tsardom of Russia, the Russian Empire, Polish, Hungarian, Austro-Hungarian and a myriad of other sources. If it's good enough for historical scholars and ethnologists to standardise the terms, it's perfectly fine for Wikipedia to follow the same principle in order to disentangle an already convoluted understanding of the history of Eastern Europe. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Removing 'vassal state' and 'protectorate' from infobox

I've just removed both of these 'status' parameter descriptors from their prominent position in the infobox per WP:NOR. This implies that the Hetmanate was subject to both states for the duration of its existence, which is not the case.

Phases during its existence are for the body of the article, not for POV claims as to ownership of the Cossack Hetmanate. Anyone who knows its history also knows that it was a tad more complicated than that. If any editor feels that there should be some sort of timeline of when, where and who stuffed into the infobox, please consider the issue of WP:DUE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

There was no original research so stop saying it is, especially when I brought a source, a WELL-KNOWN historically valid source from the Harvard Ukrainian Studies of the June 1984, volume 8. The Ottoman protected the Cossack Hetmanate as a protectorate. This is a case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, stop using your emotions, I see you are descendant from the same Cossacks asking for the Ottoman Sultan for their help. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it interesting you only decided it after someone like me put the Ottoman Protectorate but when the Russian Vassalage wasn't cited, mind you I cited my sources, you flipped the chair and removed all them. Don't worry I will get your sources, so you can sleep tightly Alexis Ivanov (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

So IRYNA, what is wrong with Riedlmayer, András, and Victor Ostapchuk. "Bohdan Xmel'nyc'kyj and the Porte: A Document from the Ottoman Archives." Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8.3/4 (1984): 453-73. JSTOR. Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute. Web. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

As I'd already noted to you, the only reference you had provided was "Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8". This carries no more meaning than my using "Encyclopaedia Britannica - Joe Blow" as a reference. I provided you with Wikipedia instructions on how to cite a source. What you have provided above does conform with proper referencing, so I'd be more than happy to add it on your behalf to a relevant section in the body of the article.

With regards to the use of the "status" parameter for Template:Infobox former country, I would ask that you read through the documentation carefully. Neither "Vassal state of Tsardom of Russia (from 1654)" (even if someone could come up with a citation), nor "Protectorate of Ottoman Empire (from 1655)" are valid for this parameter... and I would have simply deleted the 'Vassal state' business ages ago if it weren't for the fact that it would start off fresh bouts of edit warring by POV pushers. Information regarding changes which occurred in breaking away from the relationship with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth via treaties with the Ottoman Empire and the ('lost' treaty with) the Tsardom of Muscovy are content for a timeline, but not content that belongs directly under "Rus State".

As for dignifying your WP:ASPERSIONS as to my 'clearly nationalistic bias', I'm not even certain as to which 'nationalistic bias' you've decided I represent. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

>As I'd already noted to you, the only reference you had provided was "Harvard Ukrainian Studies 8". This carries no more meaning than my using "Encyclopaedia Britannica - Joe Blow" as a reference. I provided you with Wikipedia instructions on how to cite a source. What you have provided above does conform with proper referencing, so I'd be more than happy to add it on your behalf to a relevant section in the body of the article.

I'm learning how to do references and I learned it my refrence is ready. You are again parroting the same excuse even though my reference has changed so please bring forth a new excuse.

>With regards to the use of the "status" parameter for Template:Infobox former country, I would ask that you read through the documentation carefully.

I did, is there anything else

>Neither "Vassal state of Tsardom of Russia (from 1654)" (even if someone could come up with a citation), nor "Protectorate of Ottoman Empire (from 1655)" are valid for this parameter... and I would have simply deleted the 'Vassal state' business ages ago if it weren't for the fact that it would start off fresh bouts of edit warring by POV pushers.

What POV pushers? I don't see them, you can't stop improving Wikipedia because there are POV pushers. This is again another excuse that is not working. I am reading specifically about Bogdan and the Ottoman Empire.

>I'm not even certain as to which 'nationalistic bias' you've decided I represent.

Both Ukrainian or and Russia, it is clear once someone brought a valid references you got angry and start threatening me with a block even though I fixed my edit every-time you undid it, I find it extremely funny that the Russian Vassal was never edited out you let it there. And even when you un-did my eidt You only undid the Russian edit because I said so. Seems you have incredible love for the Tsardom of Russia that you let it be there with no citation.

Again your criticism is not working. I would like to move forward and improve this article and continue reading about the Cossack and Ottomans. Unless you want to threaten me again Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:18, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Also why are you linking to "Allegations that an editor may be violating the policy on the protection of children", you are trying so hard to be bureaucratic and you are failing. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

What on earth have you been reading? ASPERSIONS: "An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe. If accusations must be made, they should be raised, with evidence, on the user-talk page of the editor they concern or in the appropriate forums."... and enough of casting them! You keep going over and over the same ground about my 'obvious bias', but have not addressed the issue at stake here: being that the content is inappropriate for the section it is being used in in the infobox. Please try and WP:LISTEN to the point I am making about where such content is WP:DUE and UNDUE such as a timeline in the body of the article, or referenced in the article as it stands at an appropriate juncture. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:55, 27 October 2015 (UTC)